Lore talk:Nede

This page has two links to the Nirn namespace. I was going to shift them to Tamriel namespace, but I thought maybe the Nirn namespace is a future plan? Can a moderator confirm this or let me know I can shift these links? --Actreal 21:52, 12 June 2006 (EDT)

teaching the controversy

Someone should probably write the alternative story, that the Nedes are the aboriginal inhabitants of Tamriel who, unlike most of the others, never left the Syarry Heart, where *all* mortal life originated.

In this case the alternative version is best supported by facts other than the unquestioning blather of history books and makes more sense.— Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

I'll gladly lead a glorious coup of information, but my knowledge of hyperlinking and html wouldn't make it so pretty.— Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

What's the Syarry Heart? Where did this information come from? Is there any proof? Michaeldsuarez^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 18:03, 18 March 2008 (EDT)

It is stated explicitly in Nu-Mantia, inferred from frontier, conquest, accomodation, and makes more sense than the other story when given equal press. "Do not believe the written histories. All life started on the Starry Heart of Dawn's Beauty, Tamriel."

No proof, but there is no proof for the former either. It only becomes clear when the lore if looked at as a whole, bearing in mind the nature of Tamriel and its position as the center of Nirn. 'Humans from Atmora' doesn't stack up. The Nedes were a distinct cultural group, and the Kothringi were known to be aboriginal. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

You believe what Mankar Camoran said? The Mankar Camoran and Lorkhan articles already talk about this. However, this isn't and shouldn't be considered a fact until a more reliable source is considered. You must remember that Mankar Camoran is a crazy puppet of Mehrunes Dagon and your enemy. As for your comment about the Nedes not coming from Atmora, there aren't any evidence at all in-game, so it shouldn't be included in the article. We only include facts and such rather than fanon and speculation in this Wiki. --Michaeldsuarez^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 22:04, 22 March 2008 (EDT)

Nu-Mantia isn't from Mankar Camoran, it's from Moth Priests reading the Elder Scrolls and divinging with the Amulet of Kings.

As for only including facts... that must be difficult for you. Elder Scrolls lore has very few facts. Tell me that again when the account of the creation of Nirn isn't a paraphrased ***********Children's Story*********** — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

Sorry, but this "Nu-Mantia" doesn't seem to appear anywhere other than Mankar Camoran's Mythic Dawn Commentaries. What do you use as your source. Also, your argument should include a valid source that explanins Nirn's creation. You can't made things up on this site. --Michaeldsuarez^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 21:28, 24 March 2008 (EDT)

Look harder. Nu-Mantia Intercept

And there's my other source: Frontier, Conquest...

As for the article of Creationg, it should be scrapped in favor of something based on this: The Monomyth And until that happens, quibbling over the validity of the sources above will be foolish, so don't start.

The origins of the nedes is now a consensus among those who pay attention to such things. Alessia was no Atmoran. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

Sorry, I though you were referring to the Nedes in Skyrim. Also, the Nu-Mantia Intercept doesn't appear in-game. Thanks for the information. Sorry for everything. You can expand on this in some of the articles. --Michaeldsuarez ^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 19:46, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Controversy

Settle down, please. The wiki is not an avenue for personal attacks. We can disagree without getting nasty.

The creation of Nirn, according to everything we've seen from Bethesda, is a subject highly debated even among its inhabitants. Michael Kirkbride offers us several creation myths precisely to indicate that no particular belief is the "correct" one. Even Mankar Camoran's insane babbling was added to Oblivion for a reason. You don't seriously think the developers simply forgot about all the contradictions he makes, do you? The entire "revelation" section of Paradise was intended to challenge our most deeply held beliefs about the origin of Nirn, and maybe, just maybe, give us a taste of a new "myth".

I agree with the idea that the differing in-lore views of how Tamriel came to be, and the anthropological spread of her peoples, should be equally represented on the wiki. Please do so with respect for the other views given to us by Bethesda. After all, these aren't "our" myths - they're theirs. This wiki is intended to illuminate, not indoctrinate. --Kementari 16:30, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Exactly. So shouldn't the wiki reflect that instead of doing the opposite? Simple as that.(And I should add that the Monomyth isn't a creation story but simply a document mirroring exactly that controversy that makes no claim but draws comparisons.) — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

Feel free to add constructively to the page. Opposing viewpoints, delivered politely, enhance our understanding. --Kementari 20:51, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Exactly, you proved your point already. You don't to wait for the change to happen. You can do it yourself. --Michaeldsuarez ^{(Talk)/(Contribs)} 20:54, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Theories of Expansion

The different schools of thought ought to be titled as such. "Out-of-Atmora Theory" is good; further down it's confusing. Forgive me for nitpicking instead of fixing, but I actually haven't got the time right now to devote the appropriate research time to ensuring the subject is portrayed correctly. --Kementari 22:01, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

Just tweaked the heading. That better. And I've removed the first sentence of 'Nedes in Cyrodiil' because it's just a strange idea, nevermind that it contradicts Frontier, Conquest, Accomodation. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

Excellent. Thanks! --Kementari 22:45, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I was editing the page at the same time, so I've made an attempt to merge the changes I'd been implementing with your changes. I originally left the two sentences you deleted in place, but now having seen your reasons for deleting them, I've taken them out again. --Nephele^Talk 23:35, 25 March 2008 (EDT)

I may as well flesh out the first theory as well. — Unsigned comment by 24.31.156.165 (talk)

Appraisal of the two theories

If the last two sentences of the first paragraph stay at all, they should be in their entirety, as I feel that their meaning was quietly twisted. Michael Kirkbride confirms the origins of Nedes here: http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?showtopic=856746&st=20 That is the rationale for my description of the two theories. It should be mentioned. I tried not to take sides with my edits.Temple-Zero 23:38, 3 August 2008 (EDT)

I'll probably move them to a Notes section for the sake of style. Lemme just go find the right format.Temple-Zero 19:25, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Could someone explain to me why the references section doesn't appear in text, ready to be edited? Is it because it is referred from hidden citations embedded in the article itself?Temple-Zero 22:22, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Each of the text snippets for the references are embedded in the main text, in between <ref>...</ref> tags. So at the place where you want the ¹ to appear in text, you add the reference that's relevant. The wiki then automatically generates the little numbers, the cross links, etc. And puts the list of all the references at the place requested with the <references/> tag. There are a few other tricks, but that's the basics.

If you just want to move some details to notes, you might be best off just creating a Notes section. For example, Lore:Anticlere -- not necessarily the best example, but it's the first one that came to mind, and at least gives you an idea of the typical formatting. --Nephele^Talk 23:45, 4 August 2008 (EDT)

Out of Atmora

I'm not advocating for the removal of the theory (well, of course I am, but I don't want to start any other insurrections) but is is wrong as it stands now. According to the most recent lore and insights on ancient history the Nedes are not what Out-of-Atmora says they are. The Abadal-a lists these tribes and ethnicities (my comments are in brackets): "kothri,[Kothringi] nede, al-gemha, men-of-'kreath (though these were later known to be imported from the North)[Falkreath, listed as separate from the Nedes, who were not imported from the north, like the others], keptu, men-of-ge... ...al-hared, men-of-ket, others." It is unlikely that the Nedes are ancestor-race of all these identities, and it requires a lot of mental acrobatics to reconcile the source with Out-of-Atmora. So the article needs to be updated. I can't do it, because I know Out-of-Atmora to be wrong, and that it is a conflict for a reason.Temple-Zero 19:29, 7 August 2008 (EDT)

That's one book. Many others mention Out-Of-Atmora. Both theories need to be mentioned. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 01:08, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

That's a non-statement. Did you read that post at all?Temple-Zero 01:20, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm going to need to check the sources, but I don't think it is claimed that the Nedes were the progenitors of all men, just that they were the Proto-Nords. No source accounts for the other tribes in the Song of Pelinal, who are put on an even plane as the irrefutably indigenous Kothringi. These man cannot have disappeared spontaneously- they are half the blood in the Cyro-Nordic mix. The question is changing, I think. The presence of large populations of indigenous Tamriellic humans is now inarguable- it is only a question if the Nedics were among them. Because its sources are so vague, Out of Atmora will need some careful re-writing to prevent it falling apart under its own weight.Temple-Zero 16:13, 8 August 2008 (EDT)

Keptu et al

The Song of Pelinal names human peoples in Cyrodiil other than Nedes, Nords and Kothringi. Out-of-Atmora does not address this new development. As I read it, these are cultural groups/races (a negligible distinction) like their better-documented counterparts, and since there is no record of them having emigrated from Atmora, are indigenous like the Kothringi. As such, the conflict in history is only a matter of the original homeland of the Nedes, not the origins of the entire human race and the settlement of Cyrodiil. Both articles should be amended to reflect this, but before I go and do so, is there anyone who sees it differently? Temple-Zero 20:34, 24 August 2008 (EDT)

I'm not sure what you mean... this is the article about Nedes, so the other races aren't all that important. It doesn't change either hypothesis. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 02:32, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

It makes both articles incomplete, as if you right about the history of a race, you obviously have to mention something besides the race itself. I wrote parts of both articles without this insight, so both are a little misleading. Nedes could be, in terms of Out of Atmora, one of many names for Atmorans that were as culturally divergent as elves (I don't see anyone arguing for this one) or part of a separate generation of Atmorans arbitrarily distinct from the Nords living amongst other indigenous tribes in Cyrodiil and presumably High Rock. Indigenous theory would only need to be clarified, as it doesn't need thirty pounds of apologism to make it possible. This would also raise questions as to whether Bretons have indigenous, northern, and elven blood, or just elven and northern, and what separates a nord from a nede when they are contemporaries. Temple-Zero 10:31, 25 August 2008 (EDT)

Notes

"And for the last time... ...Nedes != Atmorans. That's just shoddy scholarship from a bygone regime."

Yes, Nephele, that is the only source for that quote. It's not really a lore document so much as something posted in response to a forum conversation. I assume MK wrote it on the spot in order to respond to a debate that had origins on the wrong side of the Fourth Wall. I don't intend it as a source, but as an explanation of the the out-of-world, real-life discrepancies that I had to attempt to resolve using an in-world voice. I think it's a little confusing.Temple-Zero 14:56, 27 February 2009 (EST)

cleanup

On the contrary, the only out of game lore used (as facts, though of course obscure texts always provide analytical insight) is from the official PGEs and forum quotes not presented as sources, already properly separated and cited. So before prodding, please explain here what material you specifically take issue with, causing your view to change from a year ago when I asked your opinion on the new article.Temple-Zero 00:55, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm not prodding it - I'm marking it for cleanup. Neither has my view changed. One problem is the naming of developers in the main body of text, albeit in a Note. The fact that Kuhlmann and Kirkbride have made relevant comments can be included but needs to be done better. At the moment, the written-as-inhabitant text - which is how Lore articles are supposed to be written - comes to a screeching halt and then we get thrown into the Real World. Additionally there are at least two spelling mistakes. Marking an article with multiple concerns is the correct thing to do. Please do not remove the tag again unless you have addressed them. –rpeh •T•C•E• 07:33, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Since I assume the in-character dev comments would be inadmissible as sources, how could it be done better?Temple-Zero 15:23, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Notes

(moved from the article)

Bethesda Developer Kurt Kuhlmann posted the following in-character opinion through his alter-ego, Hasphat Antabolis on the Bethesda Softworks Forums: "...The hoary old "Out of Atmora" theory has been widely discredited (no reputable archaeologist would publicly support it these days), but the Imperial Geographers continue to beat the drum of the Nordic Fatherland in the best tradition of the Septim Empire. They seem to think that the imprimature of officialdom gives their outdated scholarship added weight -- which, unfortunately, it appears to in the eyes of the ever-gullible public which continues to snap up the latest Pocket Guides along with the rest of their Imperial Certified pablum."

Former Developer and freelance Elder Scrolls writer Michael Kirkbride also posted an in-character explanation of the controversy (which is, in part, caused by disagreements between several writers): "...the accounts of the origins of Men differ from culture to culture. Note how the somewhat dubious scholarship of the 3rd Edition Pocket Guide to the Empire asserted that Nedics were the progenitors to the Nords, having come to Tamriel from the cold and bitter wastes of the Atmoran continent sometime during the Merethic (Mythic) Era, flying in the face of previous studies. The most famous of these, of course, is Gwylim Press’ own “Frontier, Conquest, and Accomodation,” which portrays the Nedics as a Mannish race indigenous to Tamriel, extant and flourishing long before the arrival of Ysgramor’s ancestors. In any case, the truth of prehistoric Man is most likely lost in the god-time impossibilities of the Dawn, where no absolute answers will ever come on any subject at all."

The links are broken and so phrases like "A rebuttal by the author of the 3rd PGE can be found above" are no longer useful. Besides, the decision of the OOG debate was that forum posts shouldn't be used as sources. rpeh •T•C•E• 16:40, 15 August 2010 (UTC)