Lore talk:Tsaesci

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Contents 1 Inaccurate? 2 Article Rewrite 2.1 Tsaesci 2.2 History 2.3 Tsaesci Culture 2.4 "Immortal. Vampire. Snakemen." 2.5 References 3 Argonian relation 4 Grommok

[edit] Inaccurate?

What, exactly, suggests that the descriptions of Tcaesi are inaccurate?

The only book that relates to Akaviri races, Mysterious Akavir holds a very Tamriel-centric viewpoint, and contains other misconceptions of 'foreigners' to Tamriel, going so far as to claim the redguards sank their own continent to come to Tamriel. The book Report: Disaster at Ionith mentions nothing at all of snake people (Ionith was in Tsaesci territory) and seems to indicate that they were but men that fought against the empire. Furthermore, why would the imperial people accept the rule of an obviously nonhuman race such as the tsaesci. I call BS on this snake people thing.208.79.244.67 18:10, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

That's a general vagueness more than evidence on inaccuracy. Say instead 'no verification' blah, blah. But Carolac Townway, who embellished nothing, described them as serpentine. This is a conflict, and should be described as such. On to anecdotal evidence. The Imperials are the most accepting race in Tamriel, as their strength comes from cosmopolitanism. They embraced the Akaviri wholly, just as they ordered their entire First Empire around Marukh, an ape(!). Perhaps the most compelling argument is that it would be strange if the Tcaesi were human when their culture is obsessed with snakes. Read their creation myth. Every solitary image and metaphor is serpentine in nature, and it is obvious that their intelligence is alien. Their bodies would be too.Temple-Zero 18:37, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

There is one study that claims that there were both Tsaesci and their assimilated ("eaten") humanoids. If this indeed true, it would explain tsome of the discrepancies in the descriptions of the Akaviri. From the introduction: The anatomy of the Akaviri has become a major issue among Tamrielic scholars recently. Evidence seems to contradict itself. Some scholars propose that, with the amount of evidence available, the Tsaesci must be very snake-like in appearance, while others think that their serpentine traits refer mainly to their face or posture, and some even suggest that they might be serpentine in a metaphorical way. and the conclusion

Men And Tsaesci

This leads us to one very important conclusion: if the Tsaesci "ate" the dragons by subduing them, they must have done something similar to the supposed humans of Akavir. I believe that the Tsaesci and the humans of Akavir are two different races that inhabit or inhabited the same area. The Tsaesci tried to enslave the humans of Akavir or to conquer their territory and rule their lands. The serpentine Akaviri are therefore not the same people as the humans seen at Pale Pass, though both can indeed be classified as "Akaviri".

Tsaesci as serpent-like creatures and and their men, read the rest at the link. Thus there is perhaps a base to expand Lore:Akaviri with origin, invasions, life in the empire and the potentates.--Benould^•T•C 19:44, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

And then there is the immeasurable more interesting explanation by Adventurous Putty that 'eating' means to break down an entire race until it is dissolved into a base set of memes and concepts, which are then absorbed by the Vampire Snakes and the essence of the victim is stolen.24.31.156.165 19:57, 29 July 2008 (EDT)

I don't know how reliable or noteworthy this is, but in the game I read the book called "A Childrens Anuad", a shorter retelling of the creation of the world as I understand it. At the end of this book, it is said the men are descendants of the Wandering Ehlnofey, or more precisely: "On the other continents, the Wandering Ehlnofey became the Men: the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir." The only reference to Akavir and the Tsaesci is that very passage. It may not be such a trustworthy source, considering it's a religious text, but I still think it should be taken int oconsideration. (Link: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Children%27s_Anuad ) Nederbörd 81.227.118.234 18:19, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Article Rewrite

I'm submitting this article by Sload as a replacement for the current one. Some changes still need to be made, plus whatever else is agreed on.

[edit] Tsaesci

Tsaesci, which means "Snake Palace" is the name for a region of Akavir as well as the race which lives in that region. Before the coming of Tosh Raka, the Tiger-Dragon of the Ka Po' Tun, they were the most powerful polity of Akavir. They are described as tall, beautiful, and covered in golden scales. They are universally described as being serpentine in nature, though their exact anatomy is not always agreed upon. They are immortal.^[1]

[edit] History

The Tsaesci invaded Tamriel once in 1E 2703, but they were driven back by Reman Cyrodiil, the first emperor of the Second Empire, who defeated them at Pale Pass. Some Tsaesci remained in Tamriel, including the Potentate Versidue-Shaie, who took control of the Empire after the death of Reman III. Their influences on |Nibenese culture is very prominent: Imperial weaponry, from their dai-katanas to the Dragonscale armor, shows influences from Akavir, and as late as the beginning of the Third Era, Tsaesci ancestry was a thing of pride among the Nibenese elite.^[2]

In Akavir, the Tsaesci have historically been very powerful. They killed and ate the Akaviri race of men, and then attempted to do the same to the Akaviri dragons. They managed to enslave the "Red Dragons," but the "Black Dragons" fled to the land of the Ka Po' Tun. This began a war which devestated both nations and left the dragons of Akavir extinct.^[1]

[edit] Tsaesci Culture

The culture of the Tsaesci, and of Akavir is obscure, as few texts involving them have been presented and their homeland has never appeared in a game. Oblivion suggested that the Tsaesci imagery is somewhat reminiscent of the images associated with East Asia, and though Michael Kirkbride did not intend this in Mysterious Akavir, he has expressed his support for the idea.

With the publishing of the Tsaesci Creation Myth in December 2006,^[3] one would expect that the Tsaesci perspective would become more clear, however, the myth made them even more confusing and mysterious. Interpretation of the myth is still uncertain, due to its denseness. It is clear their perspective is somewhat Aldmeri in nature, in that they consider themselves gods, rather than created by gods, though some parts are difficult to make clear, being hidden behind poetic language and bizarre jargon. It is rather unlike any other creation myth yet presented.

Adventurous Putty has proposed an interpretation of their culture which has gained some traction among members of the lore community. In this view, the myth expands the definition of "eating," meaning literally and mythically consuming the subject in its entirity, absorbing its whole identity into themselves. "It wasn't just a matter of "cultural assimilation" -- they were consumed. Entirely. They were eaten, mythically, their very identities stolen, broken down, and melted" into the Tsaesci. This interpretation is popular but not canonically endorsed.^[4]

[edit] "Immortal. Vampire. Snakemen."

In Oblivion, a character representing the ghost of a Tseasci made an appearance in Pale Pass. His physical appearance, however, did not match that of a Tsaesci at all, and his race in the CS was listed as "Imperial." It was speculated that they might not have literally "eaten" the men of Akivir, but rather consumed their culture, or else that they were not actually snake-like at all. The former proposal was supported by one developer, but Michael Kirkbride, the inventor of the Tsaesci, has repeatedly stated that the appearance of this character is due to technical limitations, and that they are literally, in his words, "Immortal. Vampire. Snakemen."^[5]

[edit] References

1. ↑ ^{1.0 1.1} Mysterious Akavir
2. ↑ First Pocket Guide to the Empire
3. ↑ Tsaesci Creation Myth, by Michael Kirkbride
4. ↑ Post by Adventurous Putty
5. ↑ Post by Michael Kirkbride

Temple-Zero 15:50, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Apologies to Sload, but I'm afraid to say I don't like this article, and I'm a bit surprised you like it, T-Z. It jumps in and out of the real world (what is this concept you call "December 2006"? :) ) but its main problem is that it relies on forum posts and personal opinion. I can reluctantly accept OOG material but when it comes to proposals from "Adventurous Putty" on a forum being cited as a primary source, then I'm drawing a line. Even if that was from a dev, it's not the kind of OOG material I think most people will want to include - the debate seemed to indicate a desire for semi-published material rather than posts. There's also a substantial amount of "MK Fanclub" in this article, especially in the last paragraph.

In short, whilst there's some good information in this post, there's far too much bad material, in my opinion, to use it as an article.

I re-jigged the headers on the post purely to make it clear which parts of the page were in your proposal - they will need changing back if this does end up on the page. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 16:03, 11 February 2009 (EST)

I'm aware of those issues and posted it (Sload requested) to see if the two of you could find a way to amend it. In which case I think we're waiting on him. If it's a no-go, I'll scavenge some of the material and add it to the current article.Temple-Zero 16:09, 11 February 2009 (EST)

[edit] Argonian relation

While it has not been suggested anywhere, perhaps it should be added that the Tsaesci could possibly be related to Argonians, as this could have happened, and their description is not definitive, so it is entirely possible that they and Argonians looked similar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 124.169.90.91 (talk • contribs) on 20 March 2009.

Unless there's any evidence of a link, such a suggestion would be pure speculation and therefore not the sort of thing we want to include. –Rpeh^{•T•C•E•} 05:23, 20 March 2009 (EDT)

The only people the Tsaesci appear to be related to are the mer, and thats in terms of spiritual beliefs, and a bit out of the scope of the wiki.74.65.142.202 16:32, 23 March 2009 (EDT)

[edit] Grommok

Should Grommoks jounal be added to references? Because it says how dusk/dawnblade is Tsaesci.--Arch-Mage Matt 05:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)