UESPWiki - User Contributions [en]

UESPWiki:Community Portal

2019-12-04T23:49:34Z

The Silencer: /* Skyrim NPC dialogue formatting */ comment

{{protection|move=full}}{{UESPWiki Trail}} __NEWSECTIONLINK__ [[Category:Message Boards]]<div style="float:right;">{{Scrolling Archive Table|class=collapsible collapsed|height=225px|width=225px
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 1|Archive 1|Feb 2005 – Jun 2006
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|Project:Community Portal/Archive 3|Archive 3|Aug 2006 – Sep 2006
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 4|Archive 4|Sep 2006 – Oct 2006
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 5|Archive 5|Nov 2006 – Dec 2006
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 6|Archive 6|Jan 2007 – Feb 2007
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 7|Archive 7|Feb 2007 – Mar 2007
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 8|Archive 8|Apr 2007 – Sep 2007
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 9|Archive 9|Oct 2007 – Nov 2007
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 10|Archive 10|Dec 2007 – Jan 2008
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 11|Archive 11|Nov 2007 – Jan 2008
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 12|Archive 12|Jan 2008 – Feb 2008
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 13|Archive 13|Mar 2008 – Apr 2008
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 14|Archive 14|Apr 2008 – Jun 2008
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 15|Archive 15|Jun 2008 – Mar 2009
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 16|Archive 16|Apr 2009 – Aug 2009
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 17|Archive 17|Jul 2009 – Dec 2009
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|Project:Community Portal/Archive 19|Archive 19|Jan 2010 – Jul 2010
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 20|Archive 20|Jun 2010 – Aug 2010
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 21|Archive 21|Sep 2010 – Oct 2010
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 22|Archive 22|Nov 2010 – Dec 2010
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 23|Archive 23|Jan 2011 – Mar 2011
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|Project:Community Portal/Archive 28|Archive 28|Jan 2012
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|Project:Community Portal/Archive 30|Archive 30|Mar 2012 – Apr 2012
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 31|Archive 31|Apr 2012 – Jul 2012
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 32|Archive 32|May 2012 – Aug 2012
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 33|Archive 33|Aug 2012 – Nov 2012
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 34|Archive 34|Dec 2012 – Jan 2013
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 35|Archive 35|Jan 2013 – Mar 2013
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 36|Archive 36|Feb 2013 – Apr 2013
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 37|Archive 37|Apr 2013 – Jun 2013
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 38|Archive 38|Jun 2013 – Aug 2013
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 39|Archive 39|Aug 2013 – Nov 2013
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 40|Archive 40|Nov 2013 – Jan 2014
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|Project:Community Portal/Archive 46|Archive 46|Oct 2014 – May 2015
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 47|Archive 47|Mar 2015 – Mar 2016
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 48|Archive 48|Mar 2016 – Jul 2016
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 49|Archive 49|Apr 2016 – Aug 2016
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 50|Archive 50|Aug 2016 – Oct 2016
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 51|Archive 51|Nov 2016 – May 2017
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 52|Archive 52|Jun 2017 – Dec 2017
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 53|Archive 53|Dec 2017 – Jul 2018
|Project:Community Portal/Archive 54|Archive 54|Aug 2018 – Dec 2018
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This is the '''main discussion forum''' used for community-wide discussions about UESP's operations, policies, design, and improvement.

All members of the community are welcome to contribute to this page. Please sign and date your post by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar. If you would like to start a new inquiry, please place it at the bottom of the page with a two-tier (==) heading.

'''Before starting a discussion here,''' please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.
<table style="background-color:#FCF3E0; border:1px solid #E3C499; padding:0.5em; margin:0 1em 1em 0"><tr><td>
Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
{{Bullet Link|[[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|Policies and Guidelines]]|A category listing of policies and guidelines, which each have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies (see [[#Active Discussions|Active Discussions]] for links to active policy discussions).}}
{{Bullet Link|Administrator Noticeboard|If you have a request that requires an [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrator]], you may want to post your comments there.}}
{{Bullet Link|Reference Desk|This is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.}}
Specific requests can be made on these pages:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Bot Requests|Bot Requests]]|This page can be used to request that one of the wiki's bots take on a task.}}
{{Bullet Link|Image Requests|You can request specific images for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|Creation Kit Information Requests|You can request specific Creation Kit information for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|New Page Requests|You can request a new page here if you were prevented from creating the page yourself.}}
{{Bullet Link|Purge Requests|If you are having problems viewing an article on UESP, the page may need to be purged. New purge requests can be made here.}}
In addition, past discussions from the Community Portal can be found at:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archives|CP Archives]]|Lists all of the past discussions from the Community Portal page, including major discussions and chronlogical archives.}}
</td></tr></table>

;<big>Active Discussions</big>
Many discussions of community-wide interest are held on pages other than the community portal. Discussions about specific policies belong on the policy talk pages, for example. The following table lists other discussions that are currently in progress on other talk pages. If you start a discussion on another talk page, please add it to this list. If a discussion listed here has been inactive (i.e., no comments of any type in at least a week), please remove it from the list.

{| class="wikitable"
! Location !! Date started !! Topic !! Listed here by
|}

== UESP App Available for Open Beta Testing ==

We've been slowly working on the UESP app over the past few months and are happy to announce that it is now available for open beta testing from the '''[https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.uesp.mobile Google Play Store]'''. Feedback and bug reports can be posted to the [[UESPWiki_talk:Mobile_App|Mobile App Talk Page]]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:31, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

== Official Cookbook interview - looking for questions! ==

We were recently contacted by the publisher of the upcoming [[Books:The Elder Scrolls: The Official Cookbook|The Elder Scrolls: The Official Cookbook]], and after exchanging some emails, he’s offered us the chance to submit interview questions to the author (Chelsea Cassel-Monroe, author of the ''World of Warcraft'' official cookbook). Her website, specifically the page about the cookbook, can be found [http://www.innatthecrossroads.com/elder-scrolls-cookbook/ here]. From what the author has said in the past, it sounds like the focus of this one is the main series, and even though she couldn’t include actual ESO recipes due to licensing, did take inspiration from some of them and the lore of the races. Does anyone have any questions they’d like ask? ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 20:38, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

== Interview on the Isle of Madness Expansion for The Elder Scrolls: Legends - Seeking Questions! ==

Hi everyone! After speaking to folks in Bethesda's PR department, we have been given the opportunity to host another Legends interview, similar to our Pete Hines [[General:Pete_Hines_Legends_Interview|interview]] from last year. This time we will be talking to Josh Utter-Leyton, one of the card designers at Sparkypants Studios, who also worked on the game at Dire Wolf Digital. We expressed an interest in asking questions that focused on the background, lore, and [[Legends:Isle_of_Madness_(story)|story]] of the new [[Legends:Isle_of_Madness|Isle of Madness]] expansion, but if you are desperate to ask a question that goes beyond those topics, feel free to still let us know.

Please post your questions below, and thank you to Bethesda and Sparkypants Studios for allowing us to have this interview!

- [[User:KriHavok|KriHavok]] ([[User talk:KriHavok|talk]]) 13:16, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

:Baliwogs, grummites, and scalons are classified as grummites in the game's cards. Should we take this as a confirmation that they are infact related in lore? Similarly, Gnarls are listed as spriggans, are gnarls listed as spriggans for balance reasons or are they actually related to Nirn's spriggans? Is there a chance we can see a shadowrend monthly card in honor of the shivering isles? Ex. ESO's shadowrend clannfear and weapon double card. If you guys ask questions about game mechanics, id like to ask if a card flavor text system will ever get implemented, such as lore on the depiction or maybe which person the card depicts if any. [[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 18:29, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

::When do the events of "Isle of Madness" take place? Is Jyggalag really free after the events of "Shivering Isles"? Did the Hero of Kvatch really become the new Sheogorath or did he just went insane? Why Luzrah gro-Shar, a female orc, isn't named "gra-Shar" according to the orcs naming traditions? [[User:Phoenix Neko|Phoenix Neko]] ([[User talk:Phoenix Neko|talk]]) 22:40, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

== Tables In Templates ==

In any of our templates that allow an unlimited number of unnamed parameters, like {{tl|Parameters}} or {{tl|Lore Book Compilation}}, it was previously impossible to use MediaWiki-style tables in the parameter list, even with the proper escaping of pipes and equals signs; you were forced to use HTML tables. After looking into it, I found a hack of a method which I believe should work in all cases. I just wanted to post about it so that if anyone spots any issues with templates of that nature, we can back it out sooner rather than later. Please let me know if you spot any such issues.{{Showhide/Start|Technical Details}}
The problem is that, internally, parameters are being parsed twice. Once in the original template call, and again when <code>#splitargs</code> splits out the sub-templates. For example,
<pre>{{Parameters
|Parameter name|optional|Table Example
{{{!}}
{{!}} Example
{{!}}}
}}</pre>
...ends up looking like this, internally:
<pre>(whatever other stuff Parameters does)
{{Parameters/Line|1=Parameter name|2=optional|3=Table Example
{|
| Example
|}
}}</pre>
That last call then gets re-parsed by the wiki, which chokes on the unescaped pipes.

The correct solution would be to use whatever MediaWiki methods are available to correctly re-emit the unparsed parameters. That, however, is beyond my skills, if it's even possible at all. So, instead, my hack of a solution was to take the parameters in the second call and replace all pipes with <code><nowiki>{{!}}</nowiki></code> calls, then allow the wiki to parse them back into pipes for a second time. A bit ugly, and a waste of time for the wiki software, but it seems to work well enough.
{{Showhide/End}} – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:16, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

== ESO Red Choice Template ==

'''{{tl|ESO Red Choice}}'''

Since the proposal didn't get much attention on the [[Template talk:ESO Red Choice|talk page]], can we please take a look at how this template functions? It acts to hide branching dialogue paths by default on ESO pages, which is unhelpful and non-standard. The use of this template has proliferated in that namespace and I really think it needs to be changed to utilise a better format if it's going to be accepted as the norm. As it stands, I'm strongly opposed to its use while it continues to hide text from the page. There is no reason for it to use a show/hide function, particularly when the dialogue being hidden is usually only a sentence or two in length. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:01, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

: Other than adding categories to check dialogue I'm not too sure why this template is necessary. You can achieve the same result (without showhides) using {{tl|FC}}. Either way, sounds like a good idea to change the showhides to indents. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 18:23, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

== Skyrim Abilities/Powers Footer ==

Dillon pointed me towards our [[Special:UnusedTemplates|unused templates]] list the other day, and in the process of going through the small number remaining (most of which are substituted or temporary-use templates), I noticed a template that Lurlock worked on several years back, {{tl|Skyrim Abilities}}, which seems to have been forgotten and gone unused all these years. It overlaps somewhat with {{tl|Skyrim Powers}}, but also has several links that aren't in the powers template. Before I put it up for deletion, does anyone think it could be added to some pages, or is there anything on it that should be merged into other footer templates? Most page deletions are relatively non-controversial, but this one could serve a purpose, so I wanted to draw people's attention to it before it gets deleted. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 03:16, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
:I noticed there are things in the Abilities template that don't exist in the Powers template like the [[Dragonborn:Powers#Seeker_of_Sorcery|Seeker of Sorcery]] and the [[Dragonborn:Powers#Seeker_of_Shadows|Seeker of Shadows]] abilities. Mind you, those are constant effect abilities, not powers per se. If they don't have their own in-use template, I don't see what it hurts to add them and any others that are missing to the Powers template, seeing as they are on the [[DB:Powers]] page already. Just an idea. [[User:The Raconteur|the raconteur]] [[User_talk:The Raconteur|✉]] 20:56, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

== Upcoming Upgrade to MW 1.25 ==

As many of you have noticed, Dave is in the process of planning an upgrade to MediaWiki 1.25. Here's a quick outline of the changes you can expect to see.
* The Recent Changes and Watchlist pages will change to use the enhanced version by default.
* Page icons are now supported natively. The means that templates like {{deleted|tl=1|Page Icon}} can be greatly simplified, and perhaps even removed altogether in some cases. (Though, for consistency reasons, it's probably better to continue to use templates regardless.) See [[Mediawikiwiki:Help:Page status indicators|this page]] for details.
* For administrators, the [[Special:Tags|Tags]] and a new [[Special:EditTags|EditTags]] special pages apparently allow more changing of tags, such as adding and removing tags, or changing tags on a revision. I don't currently have any wikis where I can check out the changes, so we'll have to see what they look like after the upgrade. (Honestly, I didn't even know the page existed until now. :P)
* Supposedly, ''"Clickable anchors for each section heading in the content are now generated and appear in the gutter on hovering over the heading."'' I tried what I thought this meant on several wikis, but was unable to see anything. Still, if it's there somewhere that I just didn't notice, it could be a useful feature. If anyone figures out what this meant and how to see the clickable list, please comment!
* [[Special:WantedPages|Wanted Pages]] will no longer list broken redirects. It's unclear if <nowiki>{{#ifexist:...}}</nowiki> will still add pages to it, but we already have a solution for that issue anyway.
There are numerous other technical changes. For the full list, see [[Mediawikiwiki:Release notes/1.25#New features|the release notes]]. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:31, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

:"Clickable anchors" are an icon beside a header that when clicked on produces an url with the section included. What icon is used for that is unknown but can probably be modified. An example appears [https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Clickable_section_anchors on mediawiki] (under proposed implementation). This is almost totally a reader-based change for better linking to us on other sites, as it produces an url and not the shortened form used on internal links. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:08, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

::Thanks, Silencer! I don't see that on any wikis that I'm on, so either it's something I or the site have disabled or, contrary to what the documentation says, it was not implemented on MediaWiki wikis. I'm curious, do you or anyone else see it on other wikis that are 1.25 or later? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:39, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

== Usage of Actual Military Awards for Project Ribbons ==

So I was looking at the images that we're currently using for Projects on the site. These are used by the [[Template:Ribbon|Ribbon]] template, and the images are found in [[:Category:UESP-Ribbons]]. They were evidently downloaded from [https://www.freeclipartnow.com/military/medals/]. The artwork is in the public domain, so it isn't an issue of copyright infringement. However, these are ''actual'' military service awards, awarded to actual people for their service. While I have never served in the military, I do know that people who have tend to take this sort of thing very seriously, and usage of these images for contributing to a website for video games may be seen as disrespectful of those who have legitimately earned them. I'm not opposed to the idea of using images ''like'' these for site projects, but I think it might be best to alter them in such a way that they do not have this alternate meaning, which some might find offensive. The simplest alteration would be just adjusting the hue - we could even theme them to our site colors, or something specific to the games associated with each of the projects. This would be the least disruptive change that could be made, and might be sufficient to avoid any misinterpretation of these images. Alternatively, we could design new graphics that are more representative of their use - using graphics from the games, for example. (Right now, it's kind of hard to tell which ribbon is which if you don't know them well.) — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 23:57, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

:I would agree with designing something new, as I also found it odd that we used these when I was looking for something for the Modspace Project. I'd be happy to try designing something new, or helping out with anyone else who wants to. I would also suggest we aim at designing to {{tl|Userbox}} dimensions, although with the 100px width continuing as default. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 15:13, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

::I like the idea of using game images, since those would (at least in theory) be more representative of the actual project. Someone involved in the Oblivion Houses Redesign Project might get [[File:OB-mapicon-Settlement.png|20px]], while someone involved in the Skyrim Houses Redesign Project might get [[File:SR-mapicon-Shack.png|20px]]. Sizing might be a bit of an issue if we go that route, though, since even just those two are at 48x48 and 40x40 natively. Where previously, the ribbons were all the same size, now they become different or we have to scale them to the same size, which could look blurry for smaller originals. If we go with something completely new, we could keep sizing in mind as things are designed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

:::These should be changed, but I don't think they need to look much different, just changing the colors. I would like to see colors that reflect the game (orange and blue for Arena, yellow and black for Morrowind, etc.) Either the initials for the project or an icon like RH said, could be added to make it clear what the project is about. One issue right now is that you see a bunch of ribbons but they are meaningless to almost everyone (even after all my time on the wiki I couldn't identify a single one). —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:13, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

::::Yeah, ideally we'd want to keep them the same dimensions (or at least aspect ratio) as before, to avoid messing up the layout on everyone's user pages. But I could see incorporating the icons into an image of the proper size, with colors themed to each of the games as well. That would make these images both more informative and make them fit better with the theme of the site. "I'mASnugglyTeddyBal" on Discord was talking about whipping up some designs (I'm not sure what name they use here), so we might want to coordinate our efforts. I'd say the project leads should come up with something, but some of these projects aren't very active any more, and in some cases their leads have left the site altogether. Colors and icons may need to be chosen on a per-project or at least per-game basis for consistency. — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 02:02, 11 March 2019 (UTC)

{{od}} For what it's worth, I think continued use of the ribbon graphics is fine and it's a little disheartening to have the graphics changed after so many years. If we are going to change them, I would be opposed to anything that lacks consistency, as one of the great benefits of using those graphics has been the consistent style. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:17, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

== Gamespaces for Skyrim Pinball and Skyrim Very Special Edition ==

I believe that both of these games should get their own namespace. Skyrim Pinball is proving to be substantial, and will likely have several long pages to summarize all information (I currently have only documented subsets of information and have it all on a single long page in my sandbox.). I would propose creation of the 'Pinball' namespace, with 'PIN' as the code for it.

For VSE, we currently have 6 pages of moderate length. I think it would be a good idea to add 4 more pages to separate out the different dungeons. At 10 pages, I think it is substantial enough to have its own namespace. I know this is a change to the decision made last summer, but I think it addresses what is a strange outlier in our current organization. 'VSE' should be the code. I'm not sure what the namespace should be called: Perhaps 'Alexa' or 'VerySpecial', maybe just 'VSE'.

Of the two, I believe the first proposal is more important. --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 15:29, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

:I agree with the first purposal. [[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 17:42, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

::My personal view is that this would be way too small for a separate namespace, but then again we have already done that for each of the TES Travels, and Stormhold, Dawnstar, and OBMob each have fewer than 50 pages. There may be an argument for just shoving each of them into Skyrim as a subspace, rather than creating separate namespaces for them. But if we can get the expected number of pages to over 30 for each one, then precedent would say yes to their own namespaces. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:13, 22 March 2019 (UTC)

:::I do not fully understand the 'too small for a namespace' argument. When it comes to DLC within an existing game, it seems reasonable, but not for a standalone game.

:::If we were to put these two games as subcategories of Skyrim, then searching for 'quests' in the Skyrim namespace would also bring back VSE and Pinball, which is likely unwanted. If we do not add a namespace, then we will have page names such as 'Quests (Pinball)', 'Quests (VSE)', 'Spells (Pinball)', 'Enemies (VSE)'. Organizationally, this is the same as 'Pinball:Quests', 'VSE:Enemies', etc. However, we forego the search benefits of namespaces, and the 'Magic Word' functionality they provide.

:::To my current understanding, either path we choose means we have the same small number of pages with their own label system. One path has a few technical benefits. What drawbacks are incurred by the namespace approach? --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 00:35, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

::::I think Lost in Hyrule's points are the biggest ones in favour of separate namespaces. Having worked on a few wikis where the norm is to disambiguate games by putting them in parentheses after the name, it gets irritating fairly quickly, plus it clashes with our traditional system of each game getting its own namespace (give or take a few exceptions). Namespaces are just easier to deal with, since you can include/exclude them in searches, recent changes, your watchlist, and anywhere else that you can select a namespace. It's also easier to deal with in terms of templates. If you disambiguate by name only, you lose all of that functionality.

::::Having said that, a namespace with only ten or so pages ''is'' pretty small. By that criteria, [[Special:PrefixIndex/User:RobinHood70/|I should have my own namespace]]! (Can I, can I, huh? Pretty please?) Looking only at gamespace pages (so, ignoring things like mod spaces and Review), and discounting Blades since it isn't out yet, our smallest namespace is currently [[Stormhold:Stormhold|Stormhold]] with [[Special:PrefixIndex/Stormhold:|32 pages]], 7 of which are redirects.

::::In the end, I'm leaning slightly in favour of separate namespaces for each, but it's not really a major issue either way. Also, from a technical standpoint, the difference is minimal between the two. Honestly, the hardest part is Dave or I having to redesign the search menu to fit however many new namespaces we decide on, which is still fairly trivial. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 07:17, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

::::: I am categorically against any suggestion that these spinoffs be placed in Skyrim subspaces. They have nothing to do with TES5, and it would be entirely inconsistent with our approach to [[OBMobile:Oblivion Mobile|Oblivion Mobile]] and [[Oblivion (PSP)|Oblivion PSP]]. If a new namespace is needed instead, so be it, but I also don't see a problem with using mainspace. The most important thing should be getting these pages live. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 13:41, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

::::::Size doesn't matter. If a game needs a namespace it gets a namespace. I had been dubious about SVSE being a standalone game until I read Legoless post above. It is exactly as different to the console version as the mobile and PSP versions are to Oblivion. It isn't "Skyrim Pinball" it is "Bethesda Pinball", and the game uses the Fallout and DOOM franchise as settings too. The game uses these three as skins and it doesn't seem that we could only cover one part of that game without covering the others. I don't really see it as part of the Elder Scrolls franchise either, it's an unconnected commodity using the licensed name to generate interest, like Skyrim Monopoly (Fallout version also available). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:14, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

:::::::It'd be easy to cover the Skyrim table without touching the others. "Bethesda Pinball" is just a collection; sure you can't get the Skyrim table separately from the other two, but you can't get any of them without Pinball FX, so that particular red line is unnecessary. "The Elder Scrolls V: Skyrim® Pinball" is the official name of that table, so "Skyrim Pinball" would be a correct contraction. You're right that it's not really connected to the franchise, but that discussion has [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 51#Bethesda Pinball|already passed]]. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:30, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

{{od}} Considering that in over 2 years since that discussion there is no article even mentioning it, I would strongly disagree that that discussion is over and done with. If as you say the table is just one part of an even larger game, it makes it even harder to see how it can be argued that it is an Elder Scrolls game. The particulars of the table belong on a Pinball FX wiki, not an Elder Scrolls series of games wiki. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:40, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

:Whatever platform it is on, it is possible to only play the Skyrim table and never touch any of the others. Each table is a distinct 'game' within a collection of games supported by Pinball FX, which is basically a platform or engine. Just like all my Epic Games are on the Epic Games Launcher, all my Zen pinball games are on Pinball FX3.

:Skyrim Pinball is Elder Scrolls and a game, so I believe it belongs here. My argument for a namespace is that these games both satisfy the basic reason we utilize them at all: an independent game that has the same page titles as other games (e.g. Quests, Magic, Weapons). If a game can be documented in a single page, then I would certainly agree a namespace would be pointless. Once you start having shared page titles is where we suggest to use them. Page count seems a less than perfect metric for this determination. For example, I looked at the Stormhold namespace mentioned by RH. 25 pages and 7 redirects, but most of the pages are quite short. For Pinball, I was thinking to organize them on rather long pages, one for Items and one for Quests. However, I could break Quests into a list page, one page for each of the 11 Main Quests, and a page for Side Quests, giving me 13 pages. Many of these pages would be longer than the Main Quest page of Stormhold. I could likewise break Items into a list page, Weapons, Armor, Jewelry, Potions, and maybe a separate Crafting page, and these would still be longer than the item pages in Stormhold. So my organization style would give 2 pages, but the Stormhold standard would produce 18.

:From the discussion here, it seems the only downside to adding the namespaces is that RH has to add an entry on a list. I think the small benefits of namespace outweigh that small drawback, as much as I like RH! :P However, I will go ahead and document in mainspace. If we conclude that a namespace is warranted, we can move the pages over. --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 00:46, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

::This discussion has derailed a little into "should we document skyrim pinball, take 2". If we have to reopen this discussion agan, then so be it. But in the end, both VSE and Skyrim Pinball (if we decide to document it (again)) are separate games that, while heavily taking setting inspiration from TES V: Skyrim, have a completely different underlying game system, and therefore warrant an unique namespace. And RobinHood, once you stop being a wiki contributor and start becoming a TES game, you'll get your own namespace, too ;-) -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

== Use of Pre-Release Template ==

I’m on mobile, so I apologize for any formatting issues, but I wanted clarity for my own understanding of the Pre-Release template and appropriate uses for it.

https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Blades:Abyss&diff=next&oldid=1941777 being “current” and correct for a game that hasn’t been officially released doesn’t mean a pre-release template is unwarranted altogether, right? The game is in early access, but it’s not fully released yet, meaning any information contained within is therefore posted “before the official release” and theoretically subject to change, correct? That’s why I added that template to every Blades page I saw that didn’t already have it, and it seems appropriate to keep it until we’re told the game has been officially released, right? Or am I not understanding the “proper” use of the template when I add it? -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 14:49, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

:My understanding of the {{tl|Pre-Release}} template is that it's for any information that we put out prior to the official release. While Blades may be in Early Access, and no longer under an NDA (according to their FAQ), as far as I know, it's still officially pre-release, and therefore the tag would apply. If it weren't, then the "pre-order" button available on the website would just say "order". That all being said, I haven't been part of pre-release efforts for a very long time, and I only see a very brief mention of it on Discord, at least in the channels I follow, so others may feel differently. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 15:03, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

::I can't really comment on Blades, as I don't (can't) play it, but I can comment on how it works for ESO and suggest parallels. Pre-release for ESO is everything that comes from before the release of content on the Live server, which includes anything from the [[Online:PTS|PTS]] server and anything from ZOS publicity. When something is verified on the Live server, that's when the Pre-Release tag is removed, even if it is during the "Early Access" period on the Live server. So for Blades, if their Early Access acts as a beta, like the ESO PTS, Pre-Release would be appropriate; if it is literally an early release of content that won't now be changed, like the ESO Early Access on the Live server, Pre-Release would be unnecessary. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 11:22, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

:::This was discussed in Discord yesterday at some length, and the gist of the discussion matched what Enodoc said above. So, as I understand it, Pre-Release tags can be removed from Blades articles provided that the information is verified in the Early Access version of the game. They shouldn't be removed en masse, however, as some information may have been taken from the beta version of the game and still requires verification that it's accurate for the EA version. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:18, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

:::: This is also my understanding of the tag's usage, although it should prove less of an issue now that early access has been opened up to more people. Blades had a beta separate from early access, which counts as an official release for our purposes even if the devs haven't called it that. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:18, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

== Excessive use of similar images in Lorespace ==

On discord we've been having... let's call it a disagreement over the excessive use of images in Lore (Or rather, whether the use of images is excessive or not). This started with [[Lore:Dwemer Animunculi|Dwemer Animunculi]], which illustrates my point pretty well, but is more clearly seen in [[Lore:Guar]] which is basically a copy of [[Online:Mounts/Guar]]. I just don't see how including every possible color of Dwemer spider or Guar that ESO throws out (which is constantly adding new reskins of existing mounts) is lore worthy. Text explaining that Dwemer spiders come in many different colors and here is an image of one example of those colors would seem sufficient to me, rather than including 12 images of every possible chroma-color there could be (this is what was present before I suggested some images get removed). To illustrate the point, [[Lore:Dwemer Animunculi|Dwemer Animunculi]] had 53 images on it as of this morning, for 15 sections, with some sections having no images at all. The average per section was about 3.5, with is skewed a bit given the amount of images in other sections.

I think we should encourage more prose in lore, rather than just image dump more and more ESO images until the page is mostly images, cause that's just a gallery. I'm not sure if there is a specific rule we can create for this, but my proposal would be to limit each section or type of creature to a max of three ESO images, unless the very nature of the creature is fundamentally changed enough that a text description doesn't accurately describe the difference. A blue cat and a red cat are not fundamentally different. A blue cat and a cat with 14 mechanical arms sticking out of its back, flippers for feet and a PhD in Chemical Engineering, that's fundamentally different and probably gets another image (probably it's own section).

And now, Legoless would like to respond to this as a counterpoint. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 20:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

: This discussion is folly. Firstly, the comparison of [[Lore:Guar]] and [[Online:Mounts/Guar]] reveals quite tellingly that the proposer has not actually read the lore article in question, nor does he appreciate its purpose to document all species of guar. Not all guar make an appearance in ESO as mounts, but ESO mounts do provide a great quantity of new guar lore. The reason I created this page in the first place was to avoid a situation where all of these guar variants would be getting separate entries on the [[Lore:Bestiary]] list. There are enough lore-worthy variants of this creature to warrant a separate page to list them all, and for an editor to seriously propose the removal of imagery from this page on the basis that the information contained there is "excessive" is plainly ridiculous given the article's purpose.

: ''"I think we should encourage more prose in lore[...]"'' I agree, and I would strongly recommend that editors try to describe in-game appearances in prose in addition to relying on imagery (as I have done on [[Lore:Guar]] and elsewhere), but it is simply not our fault that ESO has added so many reskinned breeds and variants of creatures which are then given a single line of lore-relevant tooltip text. '''These variants need to be documented in lorespace''' and there is no good argument against excluding the relevant imagery from the namespace entirely. An arbitrary limit of 3 ESO images is something which I strongly oppose as being destructive to the namespace and to the quality of our documentation.

: A general rule of thumb when editing is to avoid deleting relevant information, as this rarely improves our encyclopaedic coverage of a topic. Jeancey is proposing to limit and delete information from lorespace. If certain articles such as [[Lore:Dwemer Animunculi]] are getting overwhelmed with too many images, we should be looking at creative solutions to split up that article further (as was done with [[Lore:Vamidium]]) or consolidate the imagery elsewhere. Someone proposed making a /Gallery subpage for affected articles, which I wouldn't be against in principle.

: Lorespace needs to learn to adapt to the scale of new lore ESO has introduced, particularly when it comes to the TES bestiary. Kneejerk deletion is not the answer. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
::I apologize, I should have clarified. I was recommending removing most of the separate sections too, not JUST the images. I was saving that for a separate discussion involving the multitudes of fish in the bestiary, which could be consolidated in to different types (like the 23 different types of bass or whatever it was). The telling line from Wikiepdia's image guideline: "Images must be significant and relevant in the topic's context, not primarily decorative. They are often an important illustrative aid to understanding. When possible, find better images and improve captions instead of simply removing poor or inappropriate ones, especially on pages with few visuals. '''However, not every article needs images, and too many can be distracting.'''" I added the emphasis. I find the images in Dwemer Animunculi to be incredibly distracting, and clearly I was too distracted by the sheer number of guar images to read the Guar page, as Legoless pointed out. Some of the "lore worthy" guar on that page are: ''The Green Narsis Guar is a robust breed, used as the standard mount and dray-beast of central Morrowind.[7] It's named after the city of Narsis.'' Great. Standard mount and pack beast. ''Pack Guar are bred to serve as pack animals.'' A separate pack beast. ''The Common Vvardenfell Guar is the most common breed of guar. Despite the name, the breed is not limited to the island of Vvardenfell.'' Great. Another common breed. Apparently Green Narsis Guar is standard, but not common. ''The Pale Velothi Guar is a breed that hails from the ashlands downwind of the volcanic Velothi Mountains. They are used as mounts, and are renowned as hardy creatures capable of enduring especially harsh conditions.[6]'' Great. Another hardy guar that is just lighter in color from the others.

::I seriously don't understand how those are lore worthy. The Vvardenfell guar isn't even limited to vvardenfell, so its lore info is basically "This is a guar". Narsis Guar "This is a guar from narsis." Pack Guar "This is a guar that is used as a pack animal". None of that is particularly noteworthy in a lore sense, other than "They exist". When mentioned to Legoless that I'd just add all the Guar mounts from ESO to the guar page to show just how ridiculous it would be to add all the guar there, his response was "Great, I already did that." I just don't see how constantly adding basically the same information to two separate pages is helpful to the wiki? The lore article about Guar should be about guar as a whole. It can talk about how they are used for pack animals by the dunmer, and how they are very hardy animals that can survive in many locations, and how they are important to the Ashlanders that use them to carry their tents due to their nomadic lifestyle. And all this could be accompanied by a single picture of an ashlander with a pack guar at their side traveling through rough terrain and we don't need separate sections for Pack Guar. And Green Narsis Guar (which are also pack animals) and Common Vvardenfell Guar (which are also pack animals). It's just not.... good writing... to design articles as one sentence blurbs that really just take a back seat to a slightly different colored guar. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 20:45, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

::: I'm not sure you understand the purpose of lorespace if you think the many breeds of guar shouldn't be listed and described ''on an article about guar''!! I would refer you to a decade of precedent for listing variant breeds on [[Lore:Bestiary]] and hope that this speaks for itself; see for example the [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Bestiary_G&oldid=55913 Grizzly Bear] entry on [[Lore:Bestiary G]] from back in September 2006 which has persisted on the page to this day. According to your above value judgement on loreworthiness, "a bear that is brown" isn't worth including in lorespace. Clearly this is not the popular consensus when it comes to these matters.

::: This proposal has gone from bad to worse, firstly proposing the removal of imagery and now advocating the outright deletion of information for no purpose whatsoever. If you don't want to read ad nauseum about the various species of pack guar in the world of TES, maybe don't visit [[Lore:Guar]] in the first place. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:59, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

::::Legoless has the right of it, mostly. Dwemer Animunculi doesn't need every variation of the same creature (as in the exact same one but from game to game), however. Encouraging more prose in lore is a fine idea as well, but significant variants can fairly be included. I also don't think we really need a discussion on this, making the proposed changes would probably have been more efficient. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 21:17, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
::::: I'd like to get some other opinions rather than just the two of us. I'm clearly not explaining myself well to you, and us just going back and forth like this isn't useful. This isn't a discussion JUST about Guar and Dwemer Animunculi, this is a discussion about the bestiary in general, thus Grizzly Bear is a part of that. And saying "It's always been this way and no one else ever did anything about it" is not a good argument to make... There's another fallacy at work here too, which is the "All or nothing" fallacy. Basically saying that "if we do this, we'll have to delete half of lore!", and I don't think that's fair... Consensus can change, and when we had static games with limited scope, the way lore was set up worked. But as an editor, these pages just make me want to say "Nope". I could add to and improve Guar, but it's so sectioned and heavy that it just makes me not want to even bother because it requires another 14 hours of research to really figure out where the one sentence I want to add should go. Anyway, I'ma take a step back and let other editors have an opinion here.
::::: As a reply to AKB, I would have made the changes, but clearly I would have been reverted immediately because "Never delete any info from lore". [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:18, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
::::::ESO has created an issue that didn't really exist before. Grizzly bears are different genetically from brown bears, or black bears, or polar bears, so have different entries on them makes sense. A comparison can be made to horses pre-ESO, because they were the only animals to have any range of breed comparable to all the variations found in ESO, particularly the mounts. It looks like the guar aren't listed individually, but the bestiary is becoming a bit bloated. Pages like Guar and Horses, and Bears should help to reduce this by keeping these similar creatures listed together, but currently they are doing both. These umbrella pages are good and all variants should be listed, a mix of the Prose on Bears and the lists on the others. However, I am thinking that any with these umbrella pages, any variants listed on them should be taken off the generic bestiary lists, and make sure all the redirects link to them. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:28, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

::::::: I agree with Silencer, creating separate pages allows for variants to be removed from the ever-expanding Bestiary list and reduces duplication of info. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

{{od}}the goal of uesp is to archive all information about the elder scrolls series, those articles have legitimate lore based descriptions behind them and generalising it to "they can sometimes be green" is missing the point.
The lore provided by schick explains what they are and why they are different, by the definition of adding new lore, the different types are lore worthy.

<code>It is notable in that it could not only utilize lightning based attacks from a chroma-blue status, but also shift into a chroma-green status and release toxin based attacks, and a chroma-red (or carnelian)[8] status, and emit flame based attacks.[9] A Chroma-Yellow variety exists, and is present within some automatons :created with an Ebon-Steel alloy, such as the Ebon Steel Dwarven Spider.[10] A variant of the Ebony Steel Dwarven Spider exists, created from the Infernium forge and showing flame based characteristics.[11]</code>
in the case of the dwarven spiders
they have different characteristics, different materials and different purposes

that stuff has to be documented, because it's cool and adds new lore, the images are just there as a visual aid
i'd rather have a page spammed with the different types of guar/spider/mount/whatever, their uses, purposes, and complementary image than no info (or reduced info). [copied from discord, sorry for formatting] [[User:Thal-J|Thal-J]] ([[User talk:Thal-J|talk]])

:An alternative is rewriting the content so it is not a section by section breakdown on variants, but a more normal exploration of the different variants in prose, although it would be ideal to keep them in the bestiary if that was done. Either way, if anyone just wants to make any change to these articles to implement any version, that'd be the best response. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 22:22, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

:: Currently I have to click on multiple separate game articles when I need to read on various representations of a single monster and/or see images of these representations. In case of ESO monsters I have to click even more to find out what variations exist. This is tedious and very unfriendly to me as a user. What I see here is the proposal to make this problem even more tedious. Also I'm trying to wrap my mind around the idea that illustrations are BAD for lore articles/bestiary and to be frank I struggle to do so. UESP should document ALL variations of a single creature in one convenient place. And it should do that even more exactly because there is no simple way to ''describe'' all these variations with words when it is way easier to ''actually show'' such variations.

:: My position is that word ''excessive'' is appliable only when there are multiple images of the same thing, not multiple images of multiple things.

:: One more point. Even if these creatures are just a retexture of a currently existing one, it's not a gameplay information, it's still valid lore information. [[User:Phoenix Neko|Phoenix Neko]] ([[User talk:Phoenix Neko|talk]]) 22:32, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

::: I agree with Phoe here, and as the person who has edited the Chroma-Colors in the Dwemer animunculi page, as Thal-J has explained, even if the colors seem insignificant in at first glance, they portray what capabilities that automaton can do (shock, fire, poison based attacks), and spreading them out across pages instead of having them in a convenient place would make them harder to find and way less convenient. [[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 23:10, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

::::I feel that my points here have been misunderstood by pretty much everyone responding, so I'm just going to state something in list form, since that's what everyone seems to understand best.

::::*I am not advocating just deleting any text wholesale from any page. I am proposing taking the current sentences that exist, and keeping the actual information in them in paragraph form. If 8 sections say "they are hardy" and 5 sections say "they are pack animals" we now have one sentence saying they are "hardy pack animals" and the exact same information is present, as it is clearly a general description of most guar rather than of specific guar. If there is a guar that is significantly different from other guar, like, say a guar that can breathe underwater where other guar can't, then another sentence saying "the ___ guar are known to be able to breathe underwater" is appropriate.

::::*A point was raised claiming I suggested "A bear that is brown" isn't lore-worthy. That is a factually inaccurate summation of my proposal. My proposal would have, in that example, taken "Section: Black Bear, Description: This is a bear that is black. Section: Brown bear, Description: This is a bear that is brown" and combined them into one section, "Section: Bear, Description: Bears can be black and brown". Zero information is lost, but it is more readable to the average person when you scale it up to 20-25 separate colors of bear.

::::*I feel strongly that this conversation is needed in a general sense about lore, and I would prefer that the discussion be about improving the lorespace overall. I tried not to be so grandiose as to create and entire discussion about all of lore, since I felt a smaller discussion might result in more actionable solutions. I feel this is not helped by dismissing the entire discussion out of hand as "folly" without ever addressing the point that at least one editor, me, feels the information is provided in a way that isn't as helpful as it could be. If there are other suggestions than the ones I have provided and the default "let's do nothing", I would love to hear from those editors who can provide those solutions. This discussion has focused too much on Guar as a specific page rather than as a general example, so I'll shift to fish. An equivalent article on fish would feature these wonderful examples of separate, differently named fish:
:::::*Name: Snapper Eel
:::::*Image: {{Icon|fish|Eel|ns_base=ON}}
:::::*Description: A type of eel that can be found in Grahtwood.

:::::*Name: Swamp Eel
:::::*Image: {{Icon|fish|Eel|ns_base=ON}}
:::::*Description: A type of eel that can be found in Grahtwood.

:::::*Name: Sand Eel
:::::*Image: {{Icon|fish|Eel|ns_base=ON}}
:::::*Description: A type of eel that can be found in the Alik'r Desert region.

:::::*Name: Sand Moray
:::::*Image: {{Icon|fish|Eel|ns_base=ON}}
:::::*Description: A type of eel that can be found in the Alik'r Desert region.

:::::*Name: Sewer Eel
:::::*Image: {{Icon|fish|Eel|ns_base=ON}}
:::::*Description: A type of eel that can be found in Cyrodiil.

::::I could go on, but you get the picture. I don't see how these are useful, separate sections in the bestiary. And that is part of the reason I took issue with the Guar page, because I was shot down when I previously tried to suggest changes to fish, with many of the same arguments coming up. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 23:14, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

:::::Without taking sides or intending comment in any other way, I think a good example of what Jeancey is suggesting already exists in Skyrim space, thanks to the efforts of one or two editors several years ago. For example, [[Skyrim:Draugr|Draugr]], which used to be several articles and were then combined into one overarching article with separate sections where needed, but combined info where appropriate. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:25, 1 May 2019 (UTC)
::::::It already exists in lorespace and began [[Lore_talk:Bestiary#Fusing_entries|six years ago]]. The effort tailed off after a while but many pages already exist, mainly in prose form like Bears, or [[Lore:Minotaur|Minotaur]] which is a good example of one way to go. Other articles like Cat, Dog, and Guar are not part of that effort and therefore have a different layout. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:58, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

{{od}} I think all most images of the breed are valid, its the problem of how to display them without making the page itself unreadable or jarring. Personally, I find large chunks of gallery-style images in the middle of a lore page '''very''' unsightly (and I have small images turned on in my settings). A solution is to list the Breeds (which are largely valid) as bullets/Linkable Entries and then include a massive gallery at the bottom of the page. See a sandbox I made quickly: '''[[User:Jimeee/Sandbox8]]'''.
: This solution may also work for the above Eels example with some tweaking, but there are less lore details (other than habitat) in the eel variants compared to Guars. Yes, in some cases the gallery will be massive, but that's a trade-off for keeping all images and making the article itself flow better.
: I think there is value in having lists from a "documenting the lore point-of-view". What I wouldn't like to see is lists replaced with a paragraphs of text outlining all the variants in prose.
: As for [[Lore:Dwemer Animunculi]], that page is getting too unwieldy and I would support splitting it up so that it serves as an overview page with only 1 image of a spider for context - then the main Spider page would have every remaining image of spiders from all games--[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 10:23, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

:: No lore information should be kept from lorespace if it is lore. However, too many images can be a thing, too, but having a visualisation from several games is a good thing. I agree that the umbrella pages are a good thing, and only the "basic" form of it (guar/wolf/bear/eel) should be listed in the bestiary. My idea is to put a "variants" section at the bottom (just like [[Lore:Guar]]'s Breed section), so that people who are interested in the variants/breeds/whatever can read up on them. If, like the eels, there are no separate images or lore blurbs for them, it should just be a list; for guars there wouldn't be much change except for the section be moved down. Common occurances (such as guars used as pack beasts) should be included in the main text, too, but not every speciality of each subbreed.
:: Regarding the Dwemer Animunculy, I actually feel this page is a little different from out standard creature umbrella page, as the variants differ more greatly from each other than the different guars. The existance and the effect of known chroma colors should also be noted, although a single example image is sufficient. I guess everyone can imagine "green", and given an example of style, imagining "centurion with green lights" shouldn't be too hard. Otherwise, the page does feel too cluttered with images, especially if the variants are showcased here before they are properly introduced in the next paragraphs. The variant images should always show the respective variant as basic as possible (this also applies to general creature umbrellas) -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 15:59, 2 May 2019 (UTC)

== Online: Handling Sub-Race information in NPC Summary Template ==

With the release of Elsweyr, and the first time having a lot of NPCs being not just Khajiit as a whole, but actually breeds of Khajiit, we need to allow putting this information into the [[Template:Online_NPC_Summary]].

'''Regarding the Template:'''

I am against using the present <code>race</code> parameter for specifying the breeds (like Alfiq, Senche, ...) — as it was done with the Naga in Online-Space so far. It adds confusion for the reader. Naga are just another shape of Argonians. As much as Alfiq are just another shape of Khajiit. Following the existing pattern, all Khajiit templates would need to be renamed to <code>race=Suthay-raht</code>. This especially gets problematic for Khajiit we do not know what sub-race they actually are.

Also, we want to be as precise and specific as we can in the summaries. That is why I propose to add a new optional parameter to the template: <code>subrace</code>
With this all present pages can remain as they are and slowly be reworked. Also keep just "Khajiit" if we are not sure what their sub-race is. But we also allow to make visible that Alfiq, Pahmar-raht, Naga, ... are all just sub-species of Khajiit, or Argonians.

'''Regarding the Categories:'''

The Khajiit or Argonian NPC categories must be edited so they include all the possible Sub-Race Categories. This also allows to find all Khajiit or Argonians, regardless what breed they are each. But also still allows filter by their sub-races categories.

[[User:Skotharr-do|Skotharr-do]] ([[User talk:Skotharr-do|talk]]) 19:17, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

:Sounds like a good idea to me, and being optional, it should be easy to implement and shouldn't break anything. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:37, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
::TBH, I'm not sure what the difference, in terms of usage and result, this would be to just using Alfiq as the race and then putting the Alfiq race categories nested in the Khajiit ones.... Functionally, it would appear the same, but there wouldn't be issues with people edit warring because they really think this NPC is a Cathay, while someone else is positive it is a Cathay-raht. Or someone just going and editing all the existing Khajiit NPCs that were around before Elsweyr and adding a subrace for all of them, even though it's never explicitly stated for those specific NPCs (since they all look the same, but we've gotten mixed signals on what is what). And if someone DOES do that, there really isn't cause to reverse it, but it just adds another layer of categorization to those NPCs that I'm not sure is useful...
::If we just use Alfiq as the race, or Naga as the race, we'll end up with those NPCs which are explicitly different (Alfiq and Pahmar-raht, for example, are unmistakeable) in a Category, and that category in the Khajiit overall category (or the Argonian category for the Naga). Yes the infobox will just says Alfiq, but I think saying Khajiit (Alfiq) might just confuse people. The infobox is just supposed to be an overview after all.
::The furstock differences is much more of a lore issue, as from a gameplay perspective, they are clearly different races in game, much in the same way we have NPCs with the Elder race in Skyrim listed as Elder in the infobox, NOT as Nord (Elder) or Elder (Nord) or anything, even when in lore it is explicitly clear for most of those NPCs what their actual race is. This is much the same situation where we have visually distinct NPCs where in Lore they are technically the same. I think we should be displaying the gameplay race, rather than the lore race and gameplay race as subrace. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 20:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

:::That makes sense too. Although from a gameplay perspective, there appears to be no technical difference between an NPC, a Creature, and a Talking Activator, so perhaps we need to revisit that discussion too. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 21:31, 20 May 2019 (UTC)
::::There are SOME differences, in that NPCs all seem to have a gender defined in the Lang file, while not all Creatures do (though some do have a gender listed there). I think the Creature distinction is really just a holdover from older games, and as a way to change the infobox from displaying Race and '''requiring''' a Gender to displaying Species and not displaying the gender (since forcing gender on rat seemed a bit arbitrary). So those are really just wiki considerations that I don't think have been brought up in a long time. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

== Minor Update to 'About Us' and Refinement of Our 'Mission' ==

On the Main page, we state that we are building a "collaborative source for all knowledge on the Elder Scrolls series of games". Similar messages appear elsewhere. I contend that this is inaccurate and should be updated. In fact, we already strive to document the Elder Scrolls entertainment series/franchise/media empire in multitude forms. (There is not an excellent term for this!) We encapsulate knowledge of the video games, novels, a comic book, companion documents, blog posts, and even some fan-conducted interviews and forum posts.

Since it is already our practice, I believe we should formalize it and declare it clearly. We strive to document knowledge related to all things TES, and should say so! --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 05:02, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

:Seems like a straightforward and logical change. It's probably best to call it "the Elder Scrolls franchise", which encompasses almost everything that would make sense to document on the wiki. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:46, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

::The term "franchise" is the best way to describe it. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 11:05, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

:::With this attitude it could be justified that we document also Skyrim Monopoly and recent The Elder Scrolls Call to Arms. While I appreciate this change one could argue that this is actually a great change of direction.[[User:Phoenix Neko|Phoenix Neko]] ([[User talk:Phoenix Neko|talk]]) 20:25, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

::::I am actually of the opinion that documenting both of those would be a great addition to the site. We also lists the novels, the cookbook, mobile games, etc. Why stop at board and tabletop games? The only limiting factor would be people willing to document them, but that's not a reason to be against their possible inclusion.--[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 20:55, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

:::::I agree with Ilaro. We currently document more than just the video games. We either document all things TES or only a subset, but in either case, our messaging and policies on the matter should be clear. Thus, an update is in order! I certainly believe we should choose the "All Things TES" side. --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 22:27, 21 May 2019 (UTC)

::::::We are the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages, and not the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Video Games Pages! -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:47, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

:::::::"Franchise" would work; if anyone would rather use a different word, "universe" is also commonly used in this context. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:48, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

{{od}} That line has bugged me for a while too. My understanding is that "Elder Scrolls universe" would mainly refer to lore and not so much things like game stats or the Monopoly game that don't contribute anything to our understanding of Tamriel/Nirn/etc. Franchise should cover every little detail of anything TES-related.

Lost, if you know which pages you saw besides the main page that limit our scope to the games, it would help to post them here so the admin who edits the main page can fix them all at once. I assume they're all either in the UESPWiki or Help namespaces?

And yes, we should definitely cover these other forms of TES content like the board games. I don't think there was ever opposition to that, just lack of motivation. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 01:30, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

:After a brief search, I found the following:
:* Main - calls it out as a series of games
:* UESPWiki:About - specifies that we serve as game guides, which is slightly narrower than our full focus
:* General:The Elder Scrolls - says the series is specifically roleplaying games
:In checking this, I realize 'series' is used frequently, including in interviews, and would serve just as well as 'franchise'. TES is a series or franchise, the numbered entries are the 'main series', Travels is a spinoff series, etc. Are there any objections to "UESP covers all things TES, and our statements should accurately reflect that mission."? --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 05:13, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

::The definition goes more and more blurry. "'''all''' things TES" would also imply TES-related forum roleplay posts or unofficial developers lore which is also strictly TES-related but for many years have been out of UESP's scope. And we are the Unofficial ''Official'' Elder Scrolls Pages. I'm slightly sarcastic here, but only slightly. [[User:Phoenix Neko|Phoenix Neko]] ([[User talk:Phoenix Neko|talk]]) 11:04, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

:::"The entire Elder Scrolls franchise," then. --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 12:09, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

::::So is everyone fine with the following change? "We have been building a collaborative source for all knowledge on the ''Elder Scrolls'' series since 1995, and we could use your help!"--[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 23:49, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::Aye --[[User:Lost in Hyrule|Lost in Hyrule]] ([[User talk:Lost in Hyrule|talk]]) 01:08, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

{{od}}If we're changing stuff around, change where it says "All Elder Scrolls Games" under the logo to "All Elder Scrolls Content" or just "All Content", which is what that linked page is named anyway. I thought I remembered asking about that being changed years ago anyway since that was what the page was called, but it never was, and with this discussion, it's more worthwhile now than years ago to do it. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 03:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

:Since there's already agreement in principle on the changes, I'll give it roughly 24 hours and unless there's any objections, I'll go ahead and make Ilaro's and Damon's suggested changes. If we feel the need to add "franchise" or similar wording, that's certainly easy enough to do once we're sure of what wording to add. In the meantime, Ilaro's suggestion neatly bypasses the need to find specific wording at all. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:38, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

::And done. [[General:The Elder Scrolls]] could probably use a second set of eyes, though, as the changes to that were a bit more substantial in order to make the wording flow correctly while still being accurate. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:23, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

== Consensus on Labeling Pre-Elsweyr Khajiit as Cathay (ESO) ==

All Khajiit prior to the Elsweyr chapter used the player model, which is of the Cathay furstock, which was confirmed in the Reddit aua by the loremaster, Leamon Tuttle, as seen here. https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwryi1/?context=3

I have spoken to Lurlock and he has told me that for this change, we need to make a consensus on the matter. My proposal is that we should start labeling Khajiit of the cathay furstock as cathay instead of just Khajiit, thus this would require all the Khajiit prior to Elsweyr to be labeled as Cathay. Khajiit is a term used to describe all the furstocks, such as Alfiqs and Senches, and isn't a term exclusive to Cathay, and this is why I encourage you all to support this change. [[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 23:08, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

:I support labeling them as "Cathay", but we should not remove the word "Khajiit". That is the most commonly used word to describe them, and it should definitely not be removed. Something like "Khajiit (Cathay)" might be a good compromise. — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 23:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

::That is a fair compromise, as Cathay are the furstock that people are most likely to think of when they think of the word Khajiit.[[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 23:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

:::This brings me back to the discussion earlier on how to handle the many Khajiit furstocks in general that now are present in the game spaces. See [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Online:_Handling_Sub-Race_information_in_NPC_Summary_Template|Online: Handling Sub-Race information in NPC Summary Template]]. Though this time it's not just about the template, but it would probably affect it. As I understood from the previous topic, the NPC Summary Templates seems meant to provide technical rather than lore information. ''Khajiit'' would need to stay there for the now Cathay, as the game itself labels them only Khajiit. But in the article's body text it always should be written like "Alfiq Khajiit" or "Cathay Khajiit" etc, so those can also be separately linked to their respective sites, and we maintain flexibility for each furstock. [[User:Skotharr-do|Skotharr-do]] ([[User talk:Skotharr-do|talk]]) 23:34, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

::::Perhaps we can have a Furstock type added to the NPC summary, similar to the condition type used for vampires and other such statuses only in this case it would be a section specific to the Furstock. That way we can preserve both the race as Khajiit and have the specific Furstock listed. [[User:Enderkingdev|Enderkingdev]] ([[User talk:Enderkingdev|talk]]) 23:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::I agree with "Khajiit (Cathay)" designation. Although when there is no solid way to find out most NPCs furstock then where is the value of designating them arbitrary? [[User:Phoenix Neko|Phoenix Neko]] ([[User talk:Phoenix Neko|talk]]) 00:07, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

::::::As far as designation goes, non raht furstocks are the default if we are unable to tell the difference, as far as Enodoc and others in the discord server said. This is helpful as we know already how the furstocks look like, (Dagi looking like tiny humanoid lynxes, Alfiq looking like cats) but the raht varieties which in lore are bigger, are not presented as bigger ingame, and are visually indistinguishable, and as a result we can only tell if they are a raht variety if they themselves mention it.[[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 02:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
:::::::Personally I feel the furstock page and their raht variants should be combined into one. Eg, Pahmar and Pahmar-raht should be merged with the latter redirecting to Pahmar.--[[User:Talyyn|Talyyn]] ([[User talk:Talyyn|talk]]) 07:54, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
{{od}}Like Skotharr-do, I really feel this is just rehashing the arguments about changing the template. Adding this information retroactively provides zero additional information to those pages that wasn't already true. Busywork for the sake of Busywork. I think a better solution would just to add to the Online:Khajiit article (which all these pages link to) to make it clear that NPCs labeled as Khajiit are Cathay. I don't see a real use in listing (Cathay) on 1,736 pages. In ESO, being labeled simply as Khajiit makes you a Cathay. Adding Cathay to every page would be like if you are in New York City and referring to "People living in the city" in a bunch of documentation, and then needing to change all wording to specify "New Yorkers living in the city". Like what is the point? Technically, yes, it's true, people living in NYC can be described as New Yorkers living in NYC, but it's just not helpful in anyway. I feel like this just distracts us from adding real, useful information to the Online pages that need it. And given how many Online pages need work, doing this would be actively detrimental to the wiki. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

== Linkable Entry/LE Merge ==

There was some [[User talk:RobinHood70#Templates|recent controversy]] about whether to have templates at their most-used name for performance gain (often an abbreviation) or at a full name for self-documentation with the abbreviation a redirect (status quo). I believe Linkable Entry/LE would benefit the most from the performance gain because it's usually used a lot on the same page. It's worth noting that both names are commonly used throughout the wiki, Linkable Entry about 2x as often.

I propose renaming {{tl|Linkable Entry}} to Anchor and having no shortcut template since it's short enough already. This provides a compromise to the controversy above—performance boost on pages using LE, while maintaining a short and self-documenting name, shorter on average in fact—is consistent with [[wikipedia:Template:Anchor|Wikipedia]], avoids the common usage of two names for one template, and the name seems to me more appropriate than Linkable Entry for what it's doing (creating an anchor for internal links). —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 21:25, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

: Sounds like a good descriptive name. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:35, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

::No opposition, so I went ahead and implemented this change. I left the redirects for now, mainly because it would be a lot of work to fix the talk pages. Try to avoid both LE and Linkable Entry from now on though. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 23:54, 22 June 2019 (UTC)

== Proposal for a new namespace regarding Daggerfall Unity ==

Dear all,

for more visibility I post our proposal here as well, as there was no response in the [https://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40821 forums].

Some of you may have heard of Daggerfall Unity, a recreation of Daggerfall on basis of the original assets in the Unity Engine. It got after the recent Alpha-Release some media coverage and could seriously be a revival for The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall, which would be (of course) amazing.

The DFUnity Community, which is more or less the current international Daggerfall Community, plans on writing a DFUnity documentation regarding mechanics, differences, gameplay information, functionality and others. Actually it's supposed to be a wiki, where everyone can contribute and we can do a lot of interwiki-linking. For that we thought it may be possible to record these information in a separate namespace at uesp.net. You did that for [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]] and we were wondering if that would be also an option in our case.

As stated already we think this would give both sides some serious advantage - we can build up on all these Daggerfall information (location, game mechanics, walkthroughs...) already gathered here and UESP may get some new visitors/editors for Daggerfall content and will be kind of an official information hub for future Daggerfall player. Of course there has to be a structure fleshed out in beforehand and we have to take care of the disadvantage, that people may add DFUnity Information on classic Daggerfall pages, but this problem could arise anyway, namely if the popularity of Daggerfall grows, and less people will (sadly, to be honest) go for classic.

Please feel free to discuss and also give input if there is something unclear, respectively if you see other problems arise with DFUnity on UESP which should be eliminated before a final decision. We are very open to discuss anything. :) --[[User:Deepfighter|Deepfighter]] ([[User talk:Deepfighter|talk]]) 16:05, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
:What are the major differences between DFUnity and the original game? Are there significant gameplay changes? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 16:12, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
::Sadly the forums are relative inactive nowadays, a common trend on the internet. Seems other more fast-paced social media channels appeal more to the larger public. Anyway, I do like the proposal. As you already said, we already host namespaces for many other mod projects ([[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt]], [[Tes3Mod:Project Tamriel]], [[Tes4Mod:Stirk]], or [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim]] for example). So it being unofficial should not be an issue. However, I do voice the same concerns as Jeancey, how does it differ from the original Daggerfall except for the new engine? On the other hand, it's also possible to host pages on how to make mods for DFUnity or how to import new 3D models etc. It all depends on how many editors would like to work on it.
::DFUnity at least gave a small influx of new editors working on the Daggerfall namespace as there is still a lot missing for that game on the wiki and all help is appreciated. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:33, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
:::Thanks for your first (positive) responses. Regarding your questions - Daggerfall Unity implements Classic Daggerfall and one of Interkarmas primary goals is to stay as classic as possible, but there are some noticeable QoL enhancements. Despite the possibility of an extended modding community, which is currently already very active, Daggerfall Unity adds a lot of things which were missing or planned and didn't find their way into Classic. A not complete - but still comprehensive - list of some changes between DFU and Classic can be found [https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1662 here]. It fixes out of the box a lot of bugs, where in classic DFQFIX is needed. Some items like torches and lanterns are usable, there are even fight mechanics planned, which come more closely to TES 3 upwards.
:::There are small details, which probably only player will notice, who played Classic Daggerfall before. For example are some exploits - like the racial ones during character creation - not possible anymore. If you are looking for a location and forgot the complete name, you get suggestions by typing the location name partly. On the other hand, the locations and the structure of the game are the same as far as reverse engineering made it possible. To sum it up, I think there are some QoL features/changes - and more to come - which keep the spirit of Classic and which may also justify a separate area for DFUnity. There is a need for documentation of these things.--[[User:Deepfighter|Deepfighter]] ([[User talk:Deepfighter|talk]]) 22:07, 6 August 2019 (UTC)
::::I don't disagree, I'm just trying to figure out if there are a small enough number of changes that they'd be covered by a single page. Is there a reason these changes would need more than one page? They don't seem to fundamentally changed any aspects of the game and aren't complicated enough to need more than a few sentences of explanation. Could we get away with a page in the DF namespace itself? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 22:37, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

::::: A page at [[Daggerfall:Daggerfall Unity]] already exists. Would creating subpages in DFspace not suffice? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:10, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

:::::: Technically, as a fan-made entity, that page shouldn't be in DFspace at all. As an engine rebuild, it sounds most similar to [[Tes3Mod:OpenMW]]. We currently don't have Tes2Mod, but that is where this sort of thing would belong. If Daggerfall modding is entirely based on DFUnity, and there is no other way to mod Daggerfall, then calling the namespace DFUnity would probably be fine. Otherwise, and for consistency, Tes2Mod would make most sense. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 07:03, 7 August 2019 (UTC)
{{OD}}Depending on the scope and popularity of DFUNity, we could treat it like the unofficial patches and add information to the relevant pages in a notes section. No big overhaul is needed and duplicate pages will be kept to a minimum. Then any modding for DFUnity can be moved to Tes2Mod (for consistency with the other namespaces). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 07:52, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

:A general overview page for changes DFUnity makes seems fine. We ''do'' list changes made by the so-called "unofficial patches" in the gamespace articles directly; I think we could do the same for DFUnity. Technical information can find its home on a DFU or TES2mod namespace. There are, however, already [[Daggerfall:Files#Unofficial Patches and Fixes|"mods" for original Daggerfall]] (currently also hosted directly on DFspace, so maybe DFU or DFUmod would serve to separate one from the other, as they likely aren't compatible. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 15:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

::Firstly, thank you for discussing this so openly with us and take it in consideration. :) Secondly, we are very thankful in any way and are basically open for both ways (subpages or namespaces DFUnity/Tes2Mod:DFUnity). The basic documentation structure will be probably the same, anyway. Personally, I would go with Enodoc and would make a strict separation between both. There are not much mods for Classic Daggerfall (Eye of Argonia, Hackfall, Andyfall to name the most common), as the hacking is quite difficult. This changes with DFUnity, as it is easily accessible also for non-techies and there exist at this early stage already a lot of modifications, which may grow in numbers even more in the future.

::As said, we would be already very grateful for the possibility alone to use UESP for our documentation idea. For us it's important to get the info visible and in a convenient location, which UESP obviously provides in its entirety. Besides, the best compromise would be after my opinion to handle it with TES2mod namespace and move the Daggerfall Unity page there, as well as create subpages under ''Tes2Mod:Daggerfall Unity''. At the same time we can move all the other Daggerfall Mod pages ( e.g. [[Daggerfall:AndyFall|Andyfall]] or [[Daggerfall:DaggerXL|DaggerXL]]) into the same Tes2Mod namespace. That would make it consistent with the structure UESP approaches right now with the other titles. If and how we add all the changes of DFUnity onto the respective Classic Daggerfall pages depends probably on the information. I think we may have to look closely where it makes sense on a case-by-case basis, e.g. for spells which were left out in Classic but added back in DFUnity. We will probably start with general pages, installation, configuring settings, adding and creating mods...and then we may will see how it evolves around that. :)--[[User:Deepfighter|Deepfighter]] ([[User talk:Deepfighter|talk]]) 15:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

:::Is it finally time to create a modspace for Daggerfall. I've been suggesting this for the last couple of years with no interest so please do it now. While that's being done a modspace for Arena can be created and those namespaces can finally start to separate documented mods from the base game. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:02, 8 August 2019 (UTC)

{{od}} Since some time went by I wanted to ask if you could already internally decide which way to go and if not when we may can expect an answer or implementation? :) We don't want to push you, but neither want that this topic falls behind, as we are quite motivated right now and already thinking about how to also improve the [https://forums.dfworkshop.net/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2514&sid=aaa244a773d46bc8f628a886add6bc1a Daggerfall pages] next to it. Of course, if you need more information from our side for clarification purposes don't hesitate to ask.--[[User:Deepfighter|Deepfighter]] ([[User talk:Deepfighter|talk]]) 09:19, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

: I don't have any objection to the creation of a Tes2Mod namespace provided all other modded content is moved over as well ([[Daggerfall:AndyFall]], [[Daggerfall:Daedrafall]], [[Daggerfall:DaggerXL]], [[Daggerfall:DFQFIX]], etc). Redirects from the Daggerfall namespace should also be maintained in the event of such a move, due to the sheer age of those pages. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 10:39, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

::If there are no objections it will soon be time to ask Dave to create Daggerfall's modspace. I'll also keep pushing for Arena's modspace as it needs it too. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

:::I'm not opposing your position here, but what is the argument for an Arena modspace? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 04:21, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

::::Probably, [https://github.com/afritz1/OpenTESArena OpenTESArena] :)--[[User:Deepfighter|Deepfighter]] ([[User talk:Deepfighter|talk]]) 06:35, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

:::::Modspace is used to document the more technical parts of the games. Arena needs this just as much as every other game. Plus there are mods out there for Arena, including bug fixers, though nowhere near as many mods as other games. This information isn't currently documented but having the namespaces available will provide encouragement to start. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:11, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

::::::So, is there consensus to create Tes1Mod and Tes2Mod spaces, with DFUnity as a pseudo-namespace like Tamriel Rebuilt? I would also add shortcuts of T1, T2, and DFU, unless there's a reason to use something else that I'm not thinking of. Does that sound good? I want to be sure before I do anything, cuz namespaces are fairly permanent in nature. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:53, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

{{od}}I see no reason not to proceed with that. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 22:20, 18 August 2019 (UTC)

:Okay, the new namespaces now exist, albeit with absolutely no content. I've also entered the namespace info into [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] and created a template for Daggerfall Unity, so all of the following should be red links, but at least linking to the right places:
:* [[Tes1Mod:Main Page]] = [[T1:Main Page]]
:* [[Tes2Mod:Main Page]] = [[T2:Main Page]]
:* [[Tes2Mod:Daggerfall Unity/Artifacts|Artifacts]] = {{DFU|Artifacts}}
: I'll do the search forms tomorrow whenever I have the time (edit: done!), but everything apart from that should work now. Let me know if you spot anything else I missed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 07:02, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

::Thank you so much! :) As a starting point I moved the current Daggerfall Unity page from the Daggerfall namespace to the new [[Tes2Mod:Daggerfall Unity]]. --[[User:Deepfighter|Deepfighter]] ([[User talk:Deepfighter|talk]]) 07:50, 19 August 2019 (UTC)

== Lore Transclusions in Gamespace ==

In the early days, there was the (at the time quite logical) idea to have the intro of location articles in gamespaces be transcluded from the lore page. Some examples: [[Morrowind:Seyda Neen]] and [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal]]. During Skyrim, this went out of practice for good reasons. Lore pages nowadays can include a lot of information that has nothing to do with the game itself, mostly because they can appear in several different games. It also has the problem that someone that would like to change the location intro would need to go to the lore page instead of just editing the page itself. Besides this being a barrier for more casual editors, it also has the problem that being an intro for a game location is not the purpose of the lore page. Lore pages should include lore information, while game pages should include game information (and both should include a link to the other).

'''I propose that we should remove transclusions of lore articles that can be found in gamespaces.'''

This is an immense task and just removing them would leave a lot of pages without intro. So I suggest that all the texts that are now transcluded stay and replace the tranclusions themselves (which probably can be done by bot). This way, the gamespaces are freed from the chains of lore and can be edited from their own pages again. Support? Better ideas? Or thinking its just plain stupid? Please chime in. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 12:17, 4 October 2019 (GMT)

: I've been removing lore transclusions on an ad hoc basis for what seems like forever based on the above reasoning. It has proven a particular problem with Lore Place page transclusions as these articles grow to encompass more information and future game appearances. The fact of the matter is that TES lore is moving beyond the older games; for example, it is no longer appropriate to transclude modern lore pages into Daggerfall articles, since it does not reflect that game's setting. Where appropriate, I propose that older articles have the transclusions removed and replaced with an older version of the text from a more appropriate date in time to remove any modern info.

: I do have a few reservations about removing transclusions wholesale, however. For instance, it should not be done for books and notes, which already have a system set up to take account of textual differences between games. A careful examination of where transclusions are used in what gamespaces needs to be carried out before we decide to simply remove them all as policy, since there could be some valid uses outside of Place and Race pages that I'm just not thinking of. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 12:25, 4 October 2019 (GMT)

::You are definitely right that not all of them should be removed. Books are a great example of legitimate use. We might also just restrict them to race and place pages if that's the preferable option. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 12:29, 4 October 2019 (GMT)

:::We can make a huge dent in this by starting with the Morrowind Region template. {{tl|Morrowind Region}} currently has the transclusion of the lore page built into the template. This means that if someone sees something they want to change on, say, [[Morrowind:Ashlands]], for example, they click Edit on the page and they won't see any of the text, and they won't even see <code><nowiki>{{Lore:Ashlands}}</nowiki></code> that would point them to the right page and new users could easily get confused. I think disconnecting these transclusions from that template would go a long way toward solving the most complicated transclusion situation we have. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 19:29, 4 October 2019 (GMT)

::::The Morrowind Region template is easy and small enough in scope that I'm just going to go ahead and do it, and if we figure out later that there's some kind of issue, we can always revert. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:14, 4 October 2019 (GMT)

:::::{{ec|3}}I'm fully in support of this idea, and I think breaking it down by category would be the way to do it. So Morrowind Regions first for example, and then moving on from there. In most places we want to do this, I think it can probably be botted just by having the bot add <code>subst:</code> at the start of the template. If we want to be copying over old versions of pages, it may still be easier to just break the transclusion first and replace with older text after if necessary.
:::::For Morrowind Regions specifically, there are only nine, so we would just need someone to go through and change <code><nowiki>{{Morrowind Region|...|addbelow=(content)|...}}</nowiki></code> to <code><nowiki>{{Morrowind Region|...}}{{subst:Lore:{{PAGENAME}}}}(content)</nowiki></code>.
:::::I ec'd so many times trying to post this that it looks like you've already done that thing anyway. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:26, 4 October 2019 (GMT)

::::::I also fully support this, though I think all the pages that this is done to should get a temporary banner and/or category to ensure all the future lore is removed. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 00:21, 5 October 2019 (GMT)

{{od}} As a starting point, I had the bot generate {{Deleted|User:HoodBot/Lore Transclusions|a list}} of all transclusions to Lore space, then I filtered it down by hand to exclude things like talk pages and Lore space itself, and finally, added titles to make it easier to read. As is, the list is probably a bit hard to digest, since it includes a lot of book transclusions and citations, but there might be some ways around that; I'm just not sure of the best approach. I figured I'd publish it in its current form for people to poke at, and then once we have a better idea of what would be useful, I can have the bot come up with different lists, or at least ways of filtering the existing one. I also checked templates for any other Lore transclusions, but at least in a quick check, {{tl|Game Book}} is the only thing that came up. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:39, 5 October 2019 (GMT)

:I think the first thing that list needs is to exclude anything transcluded through {{tl|Game Book}}. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:02, 5 October 2019 (GMT)

::Done. That shortened it a lot more than I thought. Note, however, that I did this using the fastest method, which is not necessarily 100% reliable. If it so happens that a {{tl|Game Book}} page ''also'' does a manual transclusion of another Lore page, that'll be excluded from the results, since it still sees it as a Game Book page. I don't recall if we ever do that, but it's probably very rare if we do. If we need more accurate filtering, I can always load all 5000ish pages and parse them fully. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:39, 6 October 2019 (GMT)

:::I just did the full page loads and tweaked the job a bit, and {{Deleted|User:HoodBot/Lore Transclusions|the list}} as it stands now is as accurate as I can make it. It won't catch any transclusions that use variables, because the wiki itself doesn't catch those directly, but that ''should'' only be the Game Book template, which we're not concerned with. Does anyone see anything in that list that ''shouldn't'' have the Lore transclusion removed? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:19, 6 October 2019 (GMT)

::::If other people are fine with it, then I think all of those on the list are good to go. It would also be a good idea to add a template with a banner like this [[User:Ilaro/Sandbox18|this]] and an automatic category so all of them can be checked one by one for quality control. There also might be a slight problem with search engine optimization (SEO) when there are several pages with the exact same text (race pages mostly) that are not from transclusions, but we probably can't really do anything about that right now. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:41, 7 October 2019 (GMT)

:::::Sounds good! The [[Lore:Elder Scrolls]] transclusion on [[General:The Elder Scrolls]] is the only one I might let stay. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 11:34, 7 October 2019 (GMT)

{{od}} Okay, I'm getting very close to finishing the bot job, so I'll probably begin the run tomorrow. While you're all waiting, this is the approach I've taken. Please let me know if you spot any flaws or have any concerns:

'''Game Space:''' Transclude the appropriate Lore page(s), respecting the various inclusion tags. Within that text only, alter the following:
* {{tl|FMI}}: Remove the nolore parameter, if there is one, and make it either a plain template if the Lore page name and Game page name match, or add the Lore page name as the first parameter.
* {{tl|Lore Link}}: If a link can be found in the same or parent namespace, convert the Lore Link to a regular link (or bold text if the link resolves to the current page and the page isn't transcluded anywhere). If no link is found, convert the Lore Link to a Future Link with the appropriate parameters for the namespace.
* {{tl|Nst}}, {{tl|Tense}}, <nowiki>{{#ifeq:...}}</nowiki>: Resolve to the appropriate text.
* {{tl|Ref}}: Remove all.

'''Lore Space:''' Load the full text of the page and then apply the following template changes to the entire page.
* {{tl|FMI}}: If the page isn't transcluded anywhere, or if it has a "nolore" parameter (meaning all remaining transclusions of it would be suppressed anyway), remove the entire template.
* {{tl|Lore Link}}, {{tl|Nst}}, {{tl|Tense}}, <nowiki>{{#ifeq:...}}</nowiki>: As above.
* {{tl|Ref}}: Leave intact.

In all cases, the {{tl|Old Lore Transclusion}} template will be added near the top (the bot tries to be at least a bit intelligent about exactly where), and if the page is no longer transcluded anywhere, all include tags (and the appropriate text) will be removed everywhere on the page. In practice, this is very rare on Lore pages because saved variables create pseudo-transclusions that the bot can't distinguish from real ones; it's more common on gamespace pages. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 07:40, 10 October 2019 (GMT)

:Bot job is long since done, and Jeancey's already hard at work making sure the new bot never gets ahead of his edit count. :) Pages that still need checked can be found [[:Category:Old Lore Transclusions|here]]. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:29, 10 October 2019 (GMT)

== I have a question about userspaces. ==

I am from the NIWA, which is a series of Nintendo related series of Wikis. There they allow YouTube videos and personal images there. Since I'm new here, I'm not sure if that is allowed here. [[User:White Lightning|White Lightning]] ([[User talk:White Lightning|talk]]) 18:59, 12 October 2019 (GMT)

:We have no policies against personal images, and a few users have uploaded them over the years, though they really haven't caught on much. I don't believe you can ''embed'' YouTube videos in any way, but I don't think there's anything that'll prevent you from ''linking'' to one. Being a new user, you'll likely have to fight our spam prevention filters a little, but I just looked, and it should still allow the link to go through after warning you. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:44, 12 October 2019 (GMT)

== Namespace for Dawnguard ==

I think we need a new namespace for Dawnguard. Seeing how major expansions like Bloodmoon and Dragonborn, I believe we need the new namespace. [[User:White Lightning|White Lightning]] ([[User talk:White Lightning|talk]]) 16:40, 20 October 2019 (GMT)

:For your awareness, this has been discussed before [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_36#Dawnguard_vs_Dragonborn|here]] for example, I don’t see that anything has change since this was last brought up and would be against changing the Skyrim namespaces and how they are configured. [[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 17:02, 20 October 2019 (GMT)

::This was discussed again ''at length'' and thoroughly rejected [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_54#Move_Dawnguard_stuff_to_own_namespace|just over a year ago]]. Namespaces for addons need to be done at the time of release, because Dawnguard is far beyond the point of easy extraction from Skyrim space. There were only two proposals to come from it that had any merit, one to move Dragonborn into Skyrim, and another to not have namespaces for addons in the future. The first was deemed to not be worth the effort, and the second will only see attention when TESVI's addons are released. This subject is closed for the foreseeable future, unless someone can work out how to actually get around the massive disruption you are proposing. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:47, 20 October 2019 (GMT)

::: It certainly wasn't rejected last year, just never got off the ground. To reiterate the point made at the time, it would be far more productive for the purposes of documenting SSE if Dragonborn namespace was merged into Skyrim, rather than fragmenting the content even further as is being proposed here. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:15, 20 October 2019 (GMT)

::::13 people commented on the thread, and only 1 supported the idea, and that was the OP. 9 people rejected the idea with the other 3 commentators either being too ambiguous about their "vote" or not even mentioning it at all. I would call that a thorough rejection, with the only things "not getting off the ground" being the counter-proposal about merging Dragonborn and not creating namespaces for addons in the future. I would count a definite 6 in favour of the counter-proposal, and 5 against that idea. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:53, 20 October 2019 (GMT)

:::::To be honest, I would prefer Dragonborn to be integrated into the main Skyrim namespace. I saw that one of the people supported future elder scrolls games not following the same route as separate namespaces, and I hope in the future we do that. [[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 22:06, 20 October 2019 (GMT)

:::::: +1 for less namespaces -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 15:04, 21 October 2019 (GMT)

{{od}}I'm fine with the idea of fewer namespaces for future games, but as I said last year, I oppose the idea of merging or splitting any existing namespaces. While there are fair arguments in favor of the proposal, and I don't disagree with those individual points, as a whole case I can't support it. That's a lot of work and a lot of stuff that can (will) be broken on the wiki that somebody has to fix really quickly after it happens so we don't affect the general user experience (and the general user experience is based around users knowing we have these namespaces, so people will be just as confused by a split or merger as they would from the existing status quo. The namespaces were fine for the last 10 years, and I see no real reason to change anything that's already existing. The existing state of the Skyrim, Dragonborn, and earlier games namespaces is what we should hold to. We have spent almost a decade using this set-up for the Skyrim namespace, and any gain from merging them is negligible compared to the work needed to make it happen... And, a stray user making the proposal each year doesn't even mean there's enough traction in the community as a whole --registered and unregistered-- to make such an ambitious change. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 15:51, 21 October 2019 (GMT)
: Definitely a no for creating a new namespace. As some insight to the original decision, I believe the thought was that since a new distinct landmass was being added, it was assumed that Dragonborn would be fairly self contained and quite large. It turned out to be significantly smaller in scope than Shivering Isles (the most recent expansion to get its own namespace prior to Dragonborn). As Dawnguard seemed close in size and scope to KotN, which didn't get a new namespace, that was the path that was taken. Bethesda, for the first time, released several new versions of the same game that bundled everything together and kinda messed up the whole "self-contained" aspect of Dragonborn. It seems likely that we'll go with the Mod Header, ESO-style format for TES6, given how much of a mess the continuous content come from the CC stuff has been. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 16:21, 21 October 2019 (GMT)

== Private References Cited in Lore ==

A citation added recently to a lore article used a UOL reference on the private correspondence between a UESP editor and a ZOS employee without the others permission. The message in question was screen captured and linked onto the wiki via external hosting.
The ZOS employee in question asked a discord moderator that the conversation not be used publicly and the references/diffs were deleted from the wiki.
My question is, should we have a clearer policy on what is and isn't a suitable reference to use as seem to be moving towards relying heavier on contact with the development team for information that isn't explicit in game.

Whether this wants to be wrapped into the [[UESPWiki:Privacy Policy|Privacy Policy]] or into [[Help:References]] so as to explicitly disallow such references being used in the future unless both parties explicitly provide written consent to the publishing of such messages.[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 16:46, 25 October 2019 (GMT)

:If a source cannot be cited, it doesn't exist as far as an encyclopedic wiki is concerned. If it doesn't exist then nothing can be changed based on it. To use any information it needs to be traceable back to its source, we just don't need a picture of it. The source isn't the editor who asked, it's the person they asked. Any questions should probably state that any information in the reply will be used on the wiki if it is of help, so that their permission is obtained and they know exactly what will occur. What needs to be cleared up with the issue you mention, is whether the problem was with the whole information being used, or just a screen cap of it being uploaded and made public, and no problem with the information being used. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:42, 25 October 2019 (GMT)

:: I have been arguing against the inclusion of private correspondence in citations for quite a while now, so any change to deter this would be welcome. We should not be receiving dev complaints about material like this being posted to the wiki. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:24, 25 October 2019 (GMT)

:::I don't mind using the information, especially if it helps clear up some contentious lore issues, but it must be attributable. It's probably far too late for the Nahfahlaar‎ merge to be cleanly undone, but this issue really needs addressing so a source can be added for the two names refering to the one dragon. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:09, 26 October 2019 (GMT)

::::I'm not really against the use of private correspondence in citations, but it seems no clear consent was given to use it this time. They asked us to remove the quote from the site, so we can't source it anymore. We should definitely respect that and be more attentive in the future to avoid this issue. Sadly I was too hasty with the merge, but everything seemed to be in order when I did it. The merge is quite difficult, if not impossible, to be undone, and do feel responsible for that. However, I can't say I've a good solution for the Nahfahlaar‎ = Nafaalilargus problem right now. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:34, 26 October 2019 (GMT)

:::::On the topic of unmerging, I found instructions to undo a merge on Wikipedia, though it requires figuring out which revisions belonged to which. Since one of them was a redirect, that largely makes it obvious, but for that same reason, I don't think there's much reason to unmerge...the edit history there was fairly trivial. The only significant content I remember seeing was a copy-paste move that probably shouldn't have been done, so undoing the merge would mostly just be reinstating that issue. I think our best bet is to leave the merged page as is and continue on as if nothing ever happened. The talk pages were a little less trivial, but again, I don't think there's anything there that desperately warrants unmerging. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:46, 26 October 2019 (GMT)

::::::You're right. That one of them was a redirect for so long makes it a lot easier, because it's really easy to distinguish which edits belongs to which page. Only the content that got moved by copying/pasting a bit too early (which actually made the merge so complicated to begin with instead of a simple move) should be untangled again. Anyway, I agree with RH that we probably should proceed as if nothing happened. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:15, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

{{od}}I made an alteration to our UOL guidelines for this purpose. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 00:21, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

:As it stands there is no source and therefore no basis for merging and consolidating the two names under one, it '''must''' be undone, unless a source is provided. Whether or not the history is unmerged, or the page is moved and a fresh redirect created, is irrelevant to the issue that it must be undone based on the information we currently have and can attribute as an encyclopedia. The easiest route is actually returning to the employee and asking for clarification on what they wished to be removed, and making sure to state that the information they are being asked to provide is for the purpose of adding to the wiki. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 02:12, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

::I just want to clarify what you mean by "undone". If I'm understanding correctly, I think you're just saying that we should revert to the [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Nahfahlaar&oldid=2038292 22 October] version, and move the page back to Nafaalilargus, where it originally was. Is that correct? If so, apart from moving the page back over the redirect (which I don't remember if regular users can do), it needs no admin intervention and anyone can boldly do it.

::The only question I see then is what to do with the edits during the intervening time. Do we leave the edits visible, with the idea of showing that the idea that they were the same was overturned, or do we consider all the edits since then to be one gigantic privacy violation? If the latter, then after doing the above revert-and-move, an admin could do a delete-and-selective-restore to remove those edits from public view entirely. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 03:50, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

:::Can't we ask the zos employee to see if he can get permission for us to reference his pm? we know now that nahfahlaar=nafaalilargus and I would not have minded at all if the page just stayed as is with a simple verification needed tag on it.[[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 05:22, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

::::The citation by the ZOS employee is just the cherry on top, there is already enough evidence that ties him to being the same character, I'd like to quote CyanPancake's (RimOfTheSky) point on this very issue from the Nahfahlaar talk page:
{{NewLine}}
:::::"Nahfahlaar's recent appearance in ESO: Dragonhold all but solidifies the ties that equate him with being the same person as Nafaalilargus. It's long been assumed that they were one in the same, the wiki even saying that up until it was removed a few months ago. Similarities include, but are not limited to:
:::::* Both are '''red''' dragons
:::::* "Repeated alliances with mortal allies" is a trademark, allying with Ja'darri, Sai Sahan, Casimir, and Tiber Septim/Richton
:::::* Extremely similar names, '''NA'''H'''FA'''H'''LAAR''' and '''NAFA'''A'''L'''IL'''AR'''GUS
:::::* Among the few dragons known to survive in the ''[[Lore:Atlas of Dragons|Atlas of Dragons]]''
:::::It might seem odd that they'd change his name from Nafaalilargus (1995) to Nahfahlaar (2011/2019) but the reasoning is quite obvious. Dragon names were retconned by Skyrim's time to be composed of three words, unlike in previous games, where you had names like Papre or Skakmat. His inclusion in Atlas of Dragons was seemingly an explanation for how to retcon a five syllable name to something consistent. It seems using his name for strongboxes during the Dragon Rise event preceding the release of Dragonhold was a way to connect them further.
:::::I know that most people have accepted that they're one in the same, and the only hesitation is wanting a direct confirmation. Before they revealed who it was, they did hint at him in instances beforehand. One is from an [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zlpb3z0s0M&feature=youtu.be&t=3550 ESO Live] episode where the say the powerful ally is from Elder Scrolls lore and evens the odds against the dragons, another is the [https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56975 Website preview article] where the state ''"When you start the zone’s main story, a powerful and famous ally from Elder Scrolls lore joins you. No spoilers, sorry!"''. Some argue that them saying "from lore" instead of "from a previous game" isn't ''direct'' enough, but do keep in mind they were trying to keep it under wraps, and that saying "previous game" would make it far too obvious. Of course, if Nahfahlaar wasn't Nafaalilargus, why would they keep it a secret anyways? He'd just be some dragon mentioned in one sentence of a book, it makes more sense for them to keep the return of the very first dragon ever seen in a TES game a hidden detail instead."
{{NewLine}}
::::Building on that, ESO added treasure boxes in an in-game event "Dragons Rise" that were named "Nafaalilargus' Offerings". This event happened a mere few weeks before Dragonhold released, and it is the '''only''' reference to "Nafaalilargus" in the entirety of ESO. The fact that this reference comes out a few weeks before the main DLC comes out, which has Nahfahlaar in it, should ought to be considered as an obvious attempt at drawing the two characters together. Said ESO event also had you earning treasure pile collectibles, along with the treasure boxes. What other red dragon, in the whole of the franchise, has that unique relationship with treasure? [[User:Thal-J|Thal-J]] ([[User talk:Thal-J|talk]]) 12:44, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

:::::: This unmerge proposal is, simply put, a bad idea. It is clear as day that Nafalilargus is Nahfahlaar, for all of the abovementioned reasons and more. Documenting them separately does a disservice to the topic.

:::::: That said, some editors have expressed concerns over the fact that this inference could amount to original research, which is "disfavored" per our [[UESPWiki:Lore|lorespace guidelines]] (with the caveat that exceptions can be made). Instead of unmerging the article and entirely rewriting its contents due to having no source explicitly stating "Nafalilargus=Nahfahlaar", I propose a compromise: we add an {{tl|intnote}} which outlines the evidence that the two names refer to the same dragon while '''making clear''' that we do not have direct confirmation of this. An anchor can then be placed near the top of the page, drawing the reader's attention to this note and thereby maintaining the article's encyclopaedic integrity. See [[Lore:The Towers]] for precedent usage of this solution.

:::::: I believe a note that explains the logical reasoning for the merge while informing the reader than an inference has been made is the best way to reconcile both viewpoints here. By allowing the reader to make the connection themselves, we can safely document both names on the one page. In comparison, the proposed unmerge/split plainly goes against the developers' intentions, which does nothing but hamper our documentation efforts. If people are in agreement with this counterproposal, I or another editor more familiar with the topic can go ahead and draft the wording of this note. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:33, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

{{OD}} This is more like a meta comment, but we might need a separate discussion for the merge/unmerge, because the original concern was "should we have a clearer policy on what is and isn't a suitable reference to use as seem to be moving towards relying heavier on contact with the development team for information that isn't explicit in game?" My answer to this is that I think personal communication with devs need explicit consent and be able to be sourced (written down somewhere on the wiki) before it can be used. Next comment about the dragon page should be in a separate edit break. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:59, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

===Edit Break 1: Intnote and Merge/Unmerge===

I'm agreeing with Legoless on all points here since it seems to be the best option to take. I don't think we should start up another discussion about the merge since that's a whole can of worms that isn't worth arguing over. [[User:The Rim of the Sky|The Rim of the Sky]] ([[User talk:The Rim of the Sky|talk]]) 20:20, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

:I think we should all agree with Legoless point here. His seems to be the most reasonable. [[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 20:29, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

::Unless most of this discussion is deleted, the genie is out of the bottle in regards ''knowing'' that the two are one. That is an entirely different point to proving it. Due to the redaction in full of the developer comment, we don't know if they meant to actually confirm the supposition, and we have no idea what the current "intentions" of the devs are in confirming the information. I really couldn't care how poor the proof is (currently just the aforementioned treasure box), but until it was added/mentioned there was, in fact, no proof at all (all of the above similarites mentioned are just similarities and proof of nothing). It is now entirely pointless to continue any part of this discussion that pertains to the merge/unmerge unless someone else wants to object to the nature of it, and at this point that is best discussed on the article's talk page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:56, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

:::Correct me if I am interpreting you incorrectly Silencer, but is it correct to classify your opinion on this as "I only cared that there was no proof at all on the page that the two characters were the same, however now that there is, the merge/unmerge discussion is moot"? If so, are you in agreement with the current state of the page? (Nafaalilargus Treasure box + source to prerelease blogpost as cites that they are the same). Additionally, Legoless' current solution seems to be agreeable to all so far, I was wondering what your thoughts on that in particular were. My opinion on this is that if we all are in agreement about the current state of the page, then Legoless' solution may not necessarily be ''needed'', but can still be implemented for future reference and for precedent. [[User:Thal-J|Thal-J]] ([[User talk:Thal-J|talk]]) 22:39, 27 October 2019 (GMT)

== Notability in lorespace ==

There is a bit of a problem of inclusions of game mechanics of ESO that are applied to lorespace (also referencing [[Lore talk:Sinweaver#Replicas in Lore|this post]], but better to move it here). I guess that this is based on the idea that there is more than one vestige roaming around Tamriel, even though it's always used as singular when story points are completed by the vestige. In particular, edits [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Sinweaver&curid=154966&diff=2058591&oldid=2036693 like this] where "a great number of replica(s) [...] were seen throughout Tamriel." or on [[Lore:Selene|Selene]] where "the four adventurers succeeded".

In the case of Artifact replicas, this is just crown store marketing which would apply to ''everything'' bought in the ESO store. We shouldn't mix game (or store) mechanics with lore and thus should try to apply singular form (or maybe sometimes an ambiguous amount of adventures) in these kind of cases, otherwise we get the problem that it should be described that Selene has several thousand heads displayed as hunting trophies from all the delve runs.

Besides this, I feel like we should take more care in the notability of our inclusions in lorespace. Many small topics are being added recently that might not be relevant to the topic at hand and distract from other topics that need documentation. Some might even give false precedence when prominently displayed on a small lore page. We might need to (re)define what's lore-worthy as something comparable to "information that significantly adds to the understanding of the topic". --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 22:46, 4 November 2019 (GMT)
:I completely agree. There should only be references or inferences to ONE main character in ESO, since that's how the game treats the situation. The [[Lore:Chronicles of the Five Companions|Chronicles of the Five Companions]] refers to "the vestige" not "vestiges". Selene isn't killed thousands and thousands of times in lore, so why would a great number of replicas exist? We have zero evidence that these replicas are used by any NPCs at all, so at MOST, a single replica could exist, but this would require the person to have received the replica from the magical store gods via the spooky floating store panel. On top of that, it's just not really relevant to these dungeon bosses that the Elder Scrolls Online party size limit is four, so only four adventurers could have possibly helped here. It's much better to refer to "the undaunted" as the ones who assisted without referring to names or numbers. In terms of the Artifacts, it's just not important that a replica surfaced in the second era. How does that replica floating around inform the reader in any way about the actual artifact itself? The replica's picture can be added because it looks like the original artifact, but that helps inform the reader about the look of the real thing. When or where the replica existed is irrelevant to the main topic at hand.

:I definitely think that things like this have been creeping into lorespace for a while, and it'll take a long time to root them all out, but it's worth doing. We are often looked to as a quality lore repository, and really don't want to lose that due to people seeing marketing info and game mechanics mixed in with the lore information and just assuming we've lost our high standards. Some of these things have been on lore pages for years because they were added with other, high quality information, but that doesn't mean they should ever have been there. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 22:57, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

::I'm not really a huge fan for including the line of "replicas of this artifact circulated around so and so" on articles based off it being a Crown Store item, but on some articles its not really a bad thing to include. Using that line on the [[Lore:Sinweaver|Sinweaver]] article tells us that the artifact has been around since at least the Second Era, if it wasn't on there the only info we'd have is that it was around in the Third Era at the earliest, or [[Lore:Fearstruck|Fearstruck]] similarly as info about the replicas would tell us people still knew what the destroyed item looked like long after its gone.

::I don't think this is the right way of understanding how events occur in ESO's timeline, sure a dungeon can be run a million times over but everybody knows the events only occurred once, nobody is saying that these events are repeating themselves as its just a by-product of game mechanics. Occurrence of events if anything varies on the context its completed in; main questlines are by one person (the vestige), while group content (dungeons, craglorn etc.) is four players (12 with a trial, so usually a vague group of undaunted) and the npcs recognize all four players. In group content its a weird scenario since the game says one/none of you is the vestige while the other three members are just fellow adventurers. In the Alliance War nobody is the Vestige really, "canonically" everyone is just a soldier of their respective alliance. The context always changes things up.

::I'm not really sure what this whole argument is about, it gets more confusing the more I think about it, but really I think we're just overthinking things. I don't see much of a use in changing things from how they are now :/ [[User:The Rim of the Sky|The Rim of the Sky]] ([[User talk:The Rim of the Sky|talk]]) 03:37, 5 November 2019 (GMT)

:::Agreed first of all that context is entirely relevant. Specific numbers aren't though, as many dungeons in ESO are designed for four but can be completed solo. The guideline that I always followed when considering lorespace is whether whatever it is has "historical significance" - if it doesn't, then there doesn't need to be a lore article about it and the gamespace article will do. I thought that guideline was written somewhere but maybe it isn't. Therefore I would agree with the suggestion to codify "information that significantly adds to the understanding of the topic".
:::On the specific topic of artifact styles, I would argue that they're not even proper replicas; they're skins, a purely cosmetic element of gameplay designed to make one thing look like another. The weapon itself is still your generic Rubedite Greatsword or whatever, not an actual replica of Sinweaver, therefore "replicas existed" is an entirely incorrect statement. You could potentially make the argument that they work like glamour enchantments, but I think that would be original research as there's no evidence of that. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 18:33, 5 November 2019 (GMT)

::::I was 50/50 on having the replicas line to every single artifact page. It seemed unwieldy. The way ZOS themselves describe it for example is: ''"When the authentic Mehrunes’ Razor shows up, blood and carnage is sure to follow. Alter your one-handed dagger's Outfit style '''with a replica of the Mehrunes' Razor''' Elder Scrolls Artifact"''. Now that statement isn't lore-friendly as it mentions the Outfit system, but it gives insight into the devs intention of what these Crown Store items are. Replicas.

::::I'm not entirely against noting that replicas are a thing in this universe. The only thing the existence of replicas is indicative of is that the artifact's import/renown in the 2nd Era was such that people sought replicas of it. I say "people" because although we can agree there was only one Vestige protagonist, there is some evidence to suggest many Souless Ones came into being when the Planemeld began.

::::I would suggest a compromise and included a general line on [[Lore:Artifacts]] that basically mentions that during the Second Era some artifacts were so renowned that replicas existed - and a ref that leads to the [[ON:Artifact Styles]] page. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 10:53, 6 November 2019 (GMT)

:::::Alright, I feel like the following solutions can be implemented:
:::::1. The mention of replicas could be added to the Artifact page as stated by Jimeee above, but not necessarily specify anything about the amount or whereabouts of these replicas as its not relevant to the page or can even be considered game/store mechanics. However, an image of the replica could still be added to show how the artifact looks like.
:::::2. An addition to the [[UESPWiki:Lore|lore guideline page]] about what should or should not be included in lore pages based on "information that significantly adds to the understanding of the topic". Gamespace articles can suffice for other information and might even be preferable before documenting info in lorespace. Although this is still a bit vague as it can be interpreted in several ways by different editors and as such is still up to the editor where info is added. It would mostly serve as a reminder to only add relevant information where necessary.
:::::Please comment if disagreeing or if I'm missing anything. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:10, 10 November 2019 (GMT)

{{od}} The premise of this entire discussion is negated by the contents of ''[[Lore:Chaotic Creatia: The Azure Plasm|Chaotic Creatia: The Azure Plasm]]'': ''"[...] if such a thing were possible, it would probably occur in a situation where the Mundus was in existential jeopardy. In that case the Heart of Nirn would spontaneously generate such "paragon" individuals as a way of defending itself from destruction, in a manner analogous to the way the mortal body fights off infection."'' '''There are multiple vestiges/player characters in ESO and this is acknowledged in lore.''' I also mentioned it in [[Lore:Lady Clarisse Laurent Answers Your Questions|this interview]], if you're looking for an additional source. Claiming that Selene was defeated by a single hero rather than four adventurers is simply false reporting. Our documentation of game events in lorespace needs to reflect the actual gameplay, since that is the source material being cited. This push to remove any mention of replica artifacts from the relevant pages seems particularly odd, given that nobody has ever objected to e.g. the [[Daggerfall:Nocturnal%27s_Quest#Accept_the_Offer|''Daggerfall'' Nocturnal quest]] involving a replica Warlock's Ring being mentioned on the [[Lore:Warlock's Ring|lore article]] since 2012. Seems highly notable to me. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:45, 10 November 2019 (GMT)

:No one in this discussion is saying that Selene was defeated by a single hero. If you read back, the objection is about the use of a specific number instead of something as "a group of undaunted". Many dungeons in ESO are designed for four but can be completed solo. I'm not even disagreeing there was more than one vestige. However, there certainly is only one vestige that actually performed most of the quests. The defeat of Molag Bal, Kaalgrontiid, Domihaus etc is certainly only performed once in lore, and I don't see why we shouldn't treat any other lore page the same way. So I'd actually like to know your opinion about the real proposal instead this supposed "false reporting". You are arguing against something that's not even the intention of this discussion.
:Also, I don't see why the argument about Warlock's Ring is relevant here. Just because there is an example on another page no one objected to, doesn't mean that the argument is invalid (there are so many pages, there will always be something that's overlooked). I'd even argue in this case that the mention on the Warlock's Ring lore page is actually historically relevant for that particular artifact. Its name was used to trick someone, even though it was not the real artifact in the end. Nothing similar like this is the case for the replicas, there is no info about the replicas at all (there are only some useful tidbits about the real artifacts in there, nothing relevant about the replicas themselves). However, that wasn't even the main complaint about the replicas in the first place. The use of "a great number of replica(s) [...] were seen throughout Tamriel." is in my eyes just store mechanics. Combined with how the replicas are just skins, together with how we should treat vestiges in lore, I don't think it's compelling to keep this sentence in lorespace. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 23:15, 10 November 2019 (GMT)

:: You are differentiating between group dungeon mechanics and store mechanics. My argument is: when ESO gameplay is cited as a lore source, it should reflect the game mechanics. There absolutely is a compelling reason to note the appearance of countless replica artifacts during that time period, and being a premium player skin has nothing to do with it. There is no reason we ''shouldn't'' be allowed to document ESO player items in lorespace. Generally I would prefer to go for completeness in our documentation, rather than delete information due to a "lack of notability" which seems to stem more from a distaste of a certain gameplay mechanic than anything else. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:13, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

:::The problem I see with these edits is that they can give a false sense of importance for these specific subjects, give definite statements about gameplay mechanics we are not sure are really reflected in lore (or are not even necessarily true in-game either, e.g. dungeons can be completed with smaller groups than four), and/or are overall not historical relevant for the page. Just because we can document certain information in lorespace doesn't mean we should. And in my opinion, they can be distracting or even detrimental to the quality of the page when included. Also, I don't think lore pages should reflect game mechanics, lore pages should reflect established lore no matter my own opinion of the mechanics. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 22:30, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

::::On that, I repeat what I said before - important or not, "replicas existed" is an entirely incorrect statement. There are no physical replicas of these artifacts, there are only styles that make your weapon ''look like'' a replica of these artifacts. {{Item Link|id=46888|quality=4|level=66|This}} is not a replica of Mehrunes' Razor. It's a Dagger of Twilight's Embrace that happens to ''look like'' Mehrunes' Razor, and lore would see it as a Dagger of Twilight's Embrace, not a replica of Mehrunes' Razor. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 21:30, 13 November 2019 (GMT)

:::::Well, I would disagree here - the styles are just a mechanic, since you can't in reality change the appearance of weapons, and evidence points that lore-wise they are supposed to be replicas (see Jimeee's comment). For me it would be just fine to mention the existence of replicas without going into how many there were, and in case of group content, to just refer to "(Undaunted) adventurers" without mentioning that there were four, twelve, or any other number - as Lego pointed out, multiple player characters are definitely a thing, at least in some contexts, but the actual number is not that relevant IMHO. --[[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer ]]([[User talk:Vordur Steel-Hammer|TINV1K]]) 07:23, 14 November 2019 (GMT)

:::::: Not to get too bogged down in the semantics here, but "looking like a replica" is a redundant sentence. Looking like something else is a pretty accurate definition of what a replica is. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:54, 14 November 2019 (GMT)

== Wasn't sure where to put the stuff I added to a page. ==

Hello, I may of made a mistake on the Followers page for Skyrim, but that is where I may of messed up. I found out that you can pickpocket them for their default equipment if they aren't following you, but I wasn't really sure where I would put my findings. I may have over 3 years of Wiki experience back to when I joined Wikipedia, but I still make mistakes. Here's the thing I'm talking about:
[https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim%3AFollowers&type=revision&diff=2060357&oldid=2005570]

Thanks. [[User:White Lightning|White Lightning]] ([[User talk:White Lightning|talk]]) 18:27, 6 November 2019 (GMT)

== Verifiability in Lore ==

I didn't forget about the other CP post I made, but this one tries to tackle quite a different problem. I'd like to make a case about certain standards we should apply while referencing lore in lorespace. This has been discussed on Discord in some manner, but no changes on-wiki can be decided there and it's way too fast paced to actually make a comprehensive list of arguments, so that's why I am posting it here.

'''Proposal:''' the change I'd like to make is that any statement with a reference that is used in lorespace (mostly in context of ESO) not only needs to cite the quest/dialogue/etc, but also should have a documentation of the original content/source material on the wiki. This documentation would preferably be in gamespace where the reference would most likely point towards in the first place. Before I'll get replies that the games are the primary source, and thus it's sufficient enough to reference without having the source material documented, especially as documentation on the wiki is not an official source, please hear me out on why I propose this change.

Lorespace has the inevitable problem that a lot of statements made there are interpretations of the lore. This is not a problem in and of itself, but it does mean we should take extra care in how we present the information. It should be possible to verify any of the references and sources used there. The problem is, especially in ESO, that it is very hard to do. Quests can only be done once per character and some questlines need to be completed in order, so it can take hours to find the specific information you need. If a patroller needs to verify this info, they need to go on a hunt in-game that can be very tedious and time consuming. This also applies to any random user that reads the site and has to do the same if they want to verify this statement. Even though the source is technically verifiable, it's not in practice. We can't ask from our patrollers and readers to do this. The user that added the information in lore already should have this info and thus should be able to provide the original material that supports their addition. The burden of proof to show that their interpretation is supported by the source lies with the editor. This is much less a problem in gamespace, as most of the info there is straight from the game. Health values, dialogue texts, quests stages, etc are just hard data that do not have to be interpreted, so even if they can be wrong, this same problem is not really a big worry there. Wikipedia strongly prefers the use of third party sources over primary sources to be used in articles for the main reason that editors have to interpret the info from primary sources while that is already done for them in third party sources. This is of course impossible for a wiki based on a game that is the primary source, but I agree with the sentiment that strong caution is needed with interpretations, and thus needs strict rules on what is allowed to assure the quality of the wiki.
This would solve two things. 1: The possibility that interpretations based on original research creeps into lorespace, because now any editor also has to provide the source material. 2: It will remove a lot of pressure from patrollers working on these subjects.

As I said, this was also discussed on Discord and I got quite some comments with disagreements. I will list the most frequent ones here so that they do not have to be repeated by those who originally made the comments (unless there are some additions I missed there).

''Assume good faith.'' This was the main one, as those kind of edits most of the time do provide a source, so I should assume they are provided in good faith. I don't deny that, but I'd like to counter that with "assume good faith does not equal assume correctness". Mistakes can be made in good faith, but they are still mistakes that need to be fixed. Assuming good faith does nothing more than that I should assume the editor tried to better the wiki or at least didn't try to disrupt it. It's not a free card to keep anything on the site that's added in good faith. It doesn't protect you from your edits needing to be altered or removed.

''Lorespace has always worked this way.'' While I understand this sentiment, especially if it comes from editors that are actually working on lorespace a lot, it is still an appeal to tradition. Just because we did it in the past, doesn't mean we should continuing doing it. If we can do better, we should try. This problem was much less prevalent in older games, mostly because almost anything could be found with a couple of clicks in the Creation Kit or with our CSList. Even if we did do it in the past (like with an incompletely documented Redguard), it still doesn't mean it was a good practice in the first place.

If this proposal is too much to ask, then another solution might be to add a new template similar to [[Template:vn|verification needed]] or [[Template:Bug|bug confirmed]] so it doesn't discourage people too much working on new lore that is not yet documented in gamespace. [[Template:Fact|Fact]] wouldn't be sufficient, as the lack of a citation itself is not a problem in these cases. I'd really like to hear your opinions on these points as I believe this is a very important change that we can't just hand wave away as inconvenient. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 22:42, 19 November 2019 (GMT)
:The last part was my suggestion. I proposed adding a "Not supported by reference" verification template. This template would be added to '''new''' information where the reference provided does not support the information being added to lore. This would be for new information initially, in order to prevent someone from just going back and adding it en masse to information from games like Shadowkey, Dawnstar, Daggerfall, Arena, where we might not have the information recorded but it has been on the wiki for years.

:This distinction is important for the second part of the proposal. If the "Not Supported by Reference" template has been on the page for a certain period of time (say, one month, three months, something like that), then the information can be commented out or removed. This is to provide the user who added the information to lore enough time to add the supporting information to the gamespace page, or for another user to add said information. That way, we don't have unsupported information forever on the wiki, but we also don't force users to immediately add information to gamespace that they discover hasn't been added yet when adding stuff to lorespace. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 23:15, 19 November 2019 (GMT)

::I don't think calling it "Not supported by reference" would be the right way to go. The problem I laid out is not that I think the sources that are used are in disagreement with the statements, but more that they are almost impossible to verify when not documented. I added the last part because I do agree with the rest of your post (and arguments you made in previous discussions). We should be able to tackle statements made in lore when no proof or direct support is provided after a certain amount of time. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 12:12, 20 November 2019 (GMT)

:::What I mean by "Not Supported by Reference" is that the lore page cites a specific page on the wiki, and that page they cite does not contain information to support the sentence attached to the reference, likely due to the gamespace page not being complete. It really doesn't matter whether the statement is in disagreement with the GAME, but there isn't any evidence supporting the statement on the page referenced, in most cases, gamespace. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 17:39, 20 November 2019 (GMT)

::::As this would be a change in our policies, I do not feel comfortable to change it without some more input. Especially because I know some people disagreed with it in the past, but I hope this might actually convince them or at the least get to a compromise somehow. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 14:09, 27 November, 2019 (GMT)

{{od}} Excuse my harsh language here, but this is a destructive proposal which is essentially attempting to dictate what work editors can and cannot do on the wiki. UESPWiki is a [[wikipedia:Crowdsourcing|crowdsourcing]] project, and forcing editors to add info to game articles prior to documenting it in lorespace flies in the face of that model. Editors should be free to work on what they want to work on; expanding our lore articles without ever touching gamespace is a perfectly valid way to do that. Claiming that something "isn't sourced" just because the material isn't hosted on the wiki is a fundamentally flawed position. The lorespace project is entirely separate from, e.g., the project to document all Morrowind dialogue. '''The games themselves are the sources.''' Adding the sources directly to the wiki has always been to aid our lorespace documentation, it is absolutely not a prerequisite.

Commenting out or removing info on this basis is entirely inappropriate, as a wiki article cannot by definition be a valid source. Any kind of garbage could be added to a gamespace page unsourced, but following the logic on display here it would be perfectly fine to then cite that page in lore. If we are assuming good faith from editors in gamespace, the same lenience should be afforded to lore articles, particularly where an accurate reference is provided.

As one of the primary contributors to lorespace, I know I would be extremely discouraged from editing the wiki if a draconian policy like this was brought in. I am very rarely in the mood to create a full ESO quest walkthrough or transcribe the entirety of a Skyrim NPC's dialogue, and that's okay. It should not prevent me from expanding a lore article with that information. If you have an issue with a specific citation due to lack of gamespace documentation on the subject, bring it up on the relevant talk page and outline your concerns. If you don't feel like you can patrol a lorespace edit due to your own lack of knowledge or inability to verify the information, then leave it for a patroller who can.

In short, letting poor game documentation impact the wiki's lore documentation is destructive to the lorespace project and I condemn it in the strongest terms. This policy is unworkable. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:08, 28 November 2019 (GMT)

: I disagree with the proposal. As has been precedent keep gamespace and lore space as two separate projects, and treat a user preforming the contrary as a bonus. —[[User:Dcking20|dcking]]

::I'm glad there are finally some comments on this as I'm not sure how long I should've waited before assuming no one was in disagreement. I strongly disagree with the idea that we can't dictate what editors can or can not add to the wiki. What do you think all our guidelines and policies are for? Sure, we can't tell them what specific topic they can or want to edit, but it's nonsensical to say that we can't tell them they shouldn't add fanfiction to a lore article for example. We already delete and change many edits that are made on the wiki, this would just make some of the edits adhere to stricter rules.

::As I said in the initial proposal, sourcing the games, while admirable, is in practice '''not''' verifiable. Every user that reads the wiki should be able to verify the sources used in our lorespace, not just a select few patrollers. They should not only have to rely on the scrutiny of the patroller, but also be able to find it themselves. And we can not ask of them to first play a 4 hour long questline to get that info. You say "any kind of garbage could be added to a gamespace page unsourced", but I already addressed that in the main post. Lore is interpretation, while gamespace data usually is not. This makes it way more easy to actually find mistakes in the latter one. The burden of proof is on the editor that adds the info in lorespace to show that the source is actually saying what they think it says. It's basically impossible to remove faulty reasoning from the wiki if we can't even verify it and we need something that can prevent against that. If we have to choose between "any kind of garbage could be added to a lorespace page" vs "any kind of garbage could be added to a gamespace page", then the second is much easier to actually fix.

::This basically only applies for ESO information (and maybe Blades and Legends), as we have things like CSList for older games. You didn't necessarily have to add all the Skyrim dialogue in gamespace, as anyone can easily look it up even when they don't have the game in question. ESO is different than the older games and thus adhering to "we always did it like this" is just an appeal to tradition. Things have to change to keep the integrity of the wiki to the highest standards in light of new developments.

::The idea that you are discouraged from contributing to the lorespace is something to consider and one of the reasons I wouldn't mind to have some kind of compromise in this. However, I'm not sure if we should allow such an appeal to emotion to get in the way of improving our standards. I could just as easily counter it by saying I'm already discouraged from contributing to lorespace especially because there is nothing like this proposal in place. It's actually quite discouraging that I'm accused of "deleting lore" off-wiki just for trying to improve our guidelines and makes me not want to contribute to the wiki at all. So this goes both way and I ask of you to not only look at your own emotions as if they are more important when discussing this, but also consider the other party. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:59, 29 November 2019 (GMT)

:::If a policy like this were to be implemented where the game dialogue were to be needed to add lore content, I would significantly contribute less to the lorespace. I play at a faster rate than the average person, and enjoy documenting lore asap, but documenting gamespace is something that I do not really enjoy too much and the slower pace that other contributors goes at means, not to mention that everyones at a different stage of this vast game, (ESO) then the information needed will take a while to be uploaded. I already pitched in by narrowing down my citation from the horrid "events of game" which encompasses an entire game, into a single quest. If that's not enough then im not sure I can do much. Its a time consuming process to document gamespace, and I am already giving up my free time to document the lore. If anyone would like the 5000 plus screenshots to document the Dragonhold dlc dialogue I have, feel free to contact me me btw.[[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 09:47, 29 November 2019 (GMT)

:::: I'm not making an emotional appeal, I am advising as one of the main leads on the lorespace project since 2011 that this policy proposal is unworkable. I am sure there are only the best of intentions behind this proposal, and I agree that the more raw data we can host the better. However, nothing that has been said here has changed my mind about this policy. And trust me, it's equally as discouraging to see hard work deleted from lore articles as it is to be "accused" of deleting it; considering the [[#Notability_in_lorespace|above discussion on deleting artifact info]] and the ongoing [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Lore:Shezarrine|deletion review of a longstanding article]], I don't think such accusations are entirely without merit. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:45, 30 November 2019 (GMT)

== UESP 2020 Calendar Giveaways! ==

As a small thank-you to all our admins and editors we are giving away 2020 calendars composed of fan submitted screenshots. All site admins (wiki admins, forum admins, discord admins, guild officers, etc...) are entitled to one calendar. To claim just enter your real name/address along with your wiki account name on the '''[https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSd9c7QmZm2qnKpO6yuCW9BqeJm2FiclaaoG7aPEGf4A1J8TVw/viewform?usp=sf_link mailing form]'''.

For non-admins, if you've edited the wiki at anytime during 2019 you can enter a random drawings for just wiki editors...just enter your e-mail and UESP wiki account name in the '''[https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSfphsxkLd9XXshmsuFocQm4CK0EIZRuGxBRfWMrGBKeQsPKQg/viewform?usp=sf_link contest form]'''. Anyone else is welcome to enter the same contest for another random drawing of several calendars.

You can see what the calendar looks like [https://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2020Calendar-LowResDraft.pdf here]. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays from the UESP! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:14, 2 December 2019 (GMT)

==Skyrim NPC dialogue formatting==
A lot of the Skyrim NPC pages have dialogue shoved into the main paragraph of the page, and this makes it very hard to read due to the text all just merging together, there is also more prose than actual dialogue in some regards with things like 'X NPC says hello to you:' 'NPC:"Hi"'. I have made an example of what I intend to do if people approve of this new format change, it can be seen here: [[Skyrim:Barknar|Barknar]]. The prose has still been semi kept, and has had the addition of player dialogue, this follows the ESO format, which is easily readable and gives context to dialogue. The project also intends to record any dialogue that hasn't been wrote down yet, with a lot of player dialogue missing, which means lack of context/evidence as the prose can't be verified if no player dialogue is present. [[User:Imperialbattlespire|Imperialbattlespire]] ([[User talk:Imperialbattlespire|talk]]) 15:44, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

:As this is kind of similar to a previous [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 54#Oblivion and Skyrim dialogue documentation|CP discussion]], I am strongly in favor of this idea and glad with your initiative in spearheading a potential project. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 16:39, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

::Copy-pasting my thoughts from the linked to CP archive, because my thoughts are basically the same still, and I'm lazy.

:::''Using a [[Online:Lilatha|proposed Featured Article]] as an example, while there's nothing wrong with documenting dialogue like this, I feel like while the [[UESPWiki:Style_Guide#Content_over_Style|style guide]] prefers content over accessibility at the end of the day, it does say there should be a healthy balace. After all, the UESP needs to be accessible to the average reader, or who will want to visit us? Big dialogue trees, when used correctly, can be very informative, but for games like Skyrim or Oblivion, which are being proposed for this type of content, we can expect to lose navigability when we start including every player spoken option we can find, which would invariably include some random crap like Belethor's "if I had a sister, I'd sell her in a second" line. If we can healthily incorporate and improve accessibility for quest or critical dialogues to the character (Heimskr's Talos speech can be considered important to his character, for instance) in a clean and navigable way, we should go for it. If we're including content for the sake of content, eventually there's a tipping point in my opinion where there is such a thing as too much information. As was said above, in MMOs, the dialogue is almost exclusively related to quests, at least in my week and a half of ESO experience, so we don't have much per character to incorpotate, but for major singleplayer characters, we can easily triple page lengths.''

:::''While [[UESPWiki:Style_Guide#Content|all articles should be informative]], it also goes on to say that information only important to the author or to other editors shouldn't be included in the articles. As I said, we need to worry about what's actually usable to the average user who wants quick information that's readily accessible and not lost in large text trees.''

::Also, I'm not a fan of the presentation for the Barknar page. If you haven't played the game and don't know you're looking at player dialogue, it reads like it's randomly repeating itself every couple of lines. It should either be a tree like the Online article in my post, which I don't approve of for Skyrim, or keep the prose. I just don't like the weird hybrid thing that is going on in the Barknar example. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 17:04, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

:::I am in favour of this idea, the dialogue on the Barknar page looks very clean compared to other dialogue examples. Some may have concerns about the amount of white space created by this, but I think it makes it a lot easier to parse and to read. [[User:Thal-J|Thal-J]] ([[User talk:Thal-J|talk]]) 17:07, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

::::I can agree with what you mean Damon as it does feel repetitive, if people don't want the player dialogue then that's fine, the prose can be kept, but the formatting seems to be popular so far. [[User:Imperialbattlespire|Imperialbattlespire]] ([[User talk:Imperialbattlespire|talk]]) 17:42, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

:::::While I'm in favor of using the tree structure '''when appropriate''', I think the Barknar page is not a good example because its has redundancies. For example ''"When asked if he heard the Greybeards summon the Dovahkiin, he will say...''" then ''"Did you hear the Greybeards call "Dovahkiin"?"''. Sorry but that's a bad approach.

:::::Instead, like I said last time, both prose and trees should be used. I wrote the [[Dragonborn:Neloth]] page and I heavily relied on the dialogue tree, because its well structured, easily scan-able and good for when you're citing dialogue in lore articles. But there is plenty of prose in those pages too. Both work well together. Readability massively important, so that is why I'm a big proponent of using multiple headings, tables, different colored backgrounds, etc on the aforementioned pages to help with that. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:47, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

{{od}}I agree with Jimeee. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 19:12, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

:Think I have addressed what you have said Jimeee, check the page again to see if that's what you mean, thanks [[User:Imperialbattlespire|Imperialbattlespire]] ([[User talk:Imperialbattlespire|talk]]) 22:30, 3 December 2019 (GMT)

::Barknar was a well-written page, now it is not. It's no secret I hate the format used on ESO pages, I consider it laziness to dump the dialogue there and leave it as if that was a well-written, informative, and useful page. Dumping dialogue extends page lengths, and just gets worse the more dialogue there is. Putting it in prose is how you write normally, and it's no use complaining about walls of text because it's still a wall of text but just longer and without any context making it much harder to find something when you know the context but not the words. A page like [[ON:Earl Leythen|Earl Leythen]] is the beginning of a good page (how it made featured with missing dialogue is anyone's guess), where it has moved away from data dumping to incorporate prose, tables, and other formatting to make the dialogue presentable. At the extreme end, there are pages like [[SR:Delphine|Delphine]], which would be at a minimum 3x as long, and it's already one of the longest pages on the wiki. There is simply no better way to give all the information needed at once than prose, because dialogue trees cannot explain the tone, the place, and other pertinent circumstances which all are important when trying to understand what and why someone is saying something. It is prose that dominates writing everywhere because of these reasons, and that's why it should stay in prose, and ESO <s>will</s> should eventually adopt it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 02:43, 4 December 2019 (GMT)

:::I strongly disagree with Barnar's page being well written before in the context of dialogue. I find it an infuriating trying to find dialogue merged with the main body of the page. when scanning for lore related dialogue to add to lore pages, or simply learn lore in games formatted like skyrim, I do not give a skeever's ass about the daily schedule of a npc or what they are wearing or what % chance they have of wearing a certain item. I should not be subjected to that eye sore when looking for dialogue. now I agree that the redundancies of "When asked, NPC will say" is not needed. So I hope we come to a consensus to at least reformatted the dialogue away from the main body.[[User:Zebendal|Zebendal]] ([[User talk:Zebendal|talk]]) 03:15, 4 December 2019 (GMT)

::::Yeah, I'm with Silencer and Jimeee on this one. Dialogue should be incorporated with prose, not separate from it. Just dumping dialogue is one of the worst ways to format an NPC page because it provides zero context to the dialogue and requires the reader to go to every single related quest or NPC page to fully figure out the context of the conversation. We need to make sure that people can get the context of the dialogue on the page itself, and that is done as prose.

::::Zebendal, to your point about not being "subjected to that eye sore when looking for dialogue", quite frankly that is never an issue on any page on the wiki whatsoever. This information is NEVER included in the section of the article that involves dialogue. The schedule and outfit information is in the initial blurb of the article, and the dialogue is always under a subheading. Trying to use your dislike for data-based information to promote a less informative display of dialogue because you find it harder to find the lore information is a dangerous precedent to set. We shouldn't format articles because one specific person dislikes certain types of important information, we should strive to include all important game information on gamespace pages. In addition, there is a major issue with using dialogue alone without fully knowing the relevant context when adding information to lorepages. The context is often extremely important to distinguish an important overarching detail that should be on a lore page for a subject and a "one-off" mention of a detail that is never again repeated and should not be applied to a concept as a whole as it would give undue weight to that detail. Without the prose providing that context, it is very difficult to tell which type of detail it is, especially when just skimming that dialogue.

::::It seems to me that we are discussing whether we want the wiki to be complete and helpful or whether it should be the style that requires the least amount of effort. I think we should strive to make the wiki as complete and helpful as possible. Yes, that requires more effort from editors, but it is what has set us apart from other websites and allowed us to last as long as we have. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 17:59, 4 December 2019 (GMT)

::::: I am not in principle opposed to documenting player dialogue, particularly when it is extensive. The classic example I like to give is [[Oblivion:Kathutet]], which goes against the usual [[UESPWiki:OBNPCRP|OBNPCRP]] prose style in order to fully capture the NPC's dialogue tree. I think a degree of flexibility needs to be called for here when it comes to dialogue layouts. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:59, 4 December 2019 (GMT)

{{OD}}Both Delphine and Neloth already feature player dialogue, the objection is to using ESO dialogue formatting as the standard instead of how these pages are currently written and layed out. There is nothing against using player dialogue where it helps, but it's often repetitive with the prose, and very often lacks any useful information, so it's either player dialogue or prose, not both. I don't want to poke in holes in Kathutet, which is similar to how Morrowind pages are written, but the person who did the dialogue did suggest it needed to be [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Kathutet&diff=650297&oldid=638917 prettied up].

To cover a point yet not countered, all (or at least almost all) Skyrim dialogue is recorded in our [[UESPWiki:CSList|CSList]]. If anyone really only wants dialogue with no context and no explanations and description of events for NPCs then they can use that. It is our "source" for "proving" prose accuracy alongside the actual games, but real accuracy comes through the ability of anyone to correct incorrect information when they find it. Patrollers are also responsible for removing recently-added inaccurate information, and the CSList is the tool available for them to check it. Lore pages come with a much stricter level of proof, and using only game pages written by other people without doing your own research is akin to using a wikipedia page to write an essay for school; it's wrong, bad methodology, and prone to being completely inaccurate due to vandals. Counter to the idea that nothing is proven unless player dialogue is present is asking why you'd believe that what was written as player dialogue was right without another level of proof that it is accurate. At some point you have to Assume Good Faith that your fellow editors are writing accurately, as those who don't will get found out and banned (deliberate inaccurate information is vandalism). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:49, 4 December 2019 (GMT)

Skyrim:Ebony Blade

2019-12-04T02:56:57Z

The Silencer: fix category

<noinclude>{{Trail|Items|Artifacts}}[[Category:Skyrim-Weapons-Greatswords]]
</noinclude>{{Artifact Summary
|image=SR-item-Ebony_Blade.jpg
|damage=11
|weight=10
|value=2000
|charge=NA/NA=Infinite
|enchant=''Absorbs the life essence of your foes. Strengthened by the blood of deceit.''
* [[Skyrim:Absorb Health|Ebony Blade Absorb Health]], 10-30 pts for 1 sec
|type=[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]] [[Skyrim:Greatsword|Greatsword]]
|artifacttype=Daedric Artifact
|objectid=0004a38f
|editorid=DA08EbonyBlade
|tempering=Not possible
|speed=1
|reach=1
}} __NOTOC__
The [[Skyrim:Ebony Blade|Ebony Blade]] is a Daedric [[Skyrim:Artifacts|artifact]] found during the quest [[Skyrim:The Whispering Door|The Whispering Door]]. It is an artifact of the [[Lore:Daedric Princes|Daedric Prince]] [[Lore:Mephala|Mephala]]. Essentially, it is a two-handed katana (with the speed, length, and reach of a standard, one-handed sword) with designs similar to normal [[Skyrim:Ebony#Ebony_Weapons|ebony weapons]].

Upon obtaining the artifact, Mephala bids you to unlock the blade's true potential by murdering your [[Skyrim:Disposition|close friends]] (typically, those you have done favors for). For every two such NPCs that are killed with the blade, Mephala will speak to you, and the blade's Absorb Health effect will increase by 4 points. After a total of ten people are betrayed, the [[Skyrim:Absorb Health|absorb health]] effect will max out at 30 points per hit, and won't become any stronger.

<includeonly>For more information, see the [[Skyrim:Ebony Blade|Ebony Blade]] article.</includeonly><noinclude>Suggestions for charging the Ebony Blade can be found [[Skyrim:Ebony Blade Victims|here]].
{{NewLeft}}
==Related Quests==
* {{Quest Link|The Whispering Door}}

== Powering the Blade ==
Mephala will speak to you after the blade has been powered up to the next level using the blood of deceit, to congratulate you on your progress. The line of dialogue that she uses is random.
*''"Excellent work, child."''
*''"I can feel their heartbreak swelling in my blade."''
*''"Their tears shine the ebony to a sharpest gleam."''
*''"Ah, the blood of deceit is a nourishing flow."''
When you have claimed your tenth and final victim, Mephala will be overjoyed and speak to you one last time: ''"At last, my blade is returned to its full glory. Now go forth, child. Continue your tiny subversions against the orders of trust and intimacy."''

==Notes==
* Although any NPC with a [[Skyrim:Disposition|relationship value]] of 1, 2, or 4 will power up the blade when slain with it, some are more suitable than others. To minimize the repercussions of enhancing the blade, it is often beneficial to choose targets with replaceable functions, such as the owners of mills and mines, or those who must be slain during particular quests.
** A good way to determine whether or not an NPC is considered a "friend" is to listen to how they greet you. People that say things like ''"You've been a good friend to me"'' or ''"It's a fine day with you around"'' are viable targets for powering up the Ebony Blade.
**{{Pc22}} An NPC's relationship value can be determined by the use of the console command <code>player.getrelationshiprank <actor ID></code>, or alternatively click on the NPC so that their RefID is showing and enter <code>getrelationshiprank player</code>.
*{{Pc22}} You can check your current progress towards enhancing the blade by entering the console command <code>sqv da08ebonybladetracking</code> and looking at the "FriendsKilled_var" line.
* The boosted absorb health effect functions based off a perk. As normally only the player has the perk, any followers given the Ebony Blade will only be able to use its base stats.
* A second Ebony Blade (item ID <code>000ea29c</code>, DA08RealEbonyBlade) is included in Skyrim, though it cannot be obtained without the use of the console. This version of the Blade allows you to attack NPCs without having them become hostile. This effect matches the description of how Mephala says the Blade should function once it is sufficiently powerful. Murders using this blade will still give you bounty if you are witnessed.
* Though every other Daedric artifact weapon is able to be improved through [[Skyrim:smithing|smithing]], the Ebony Blade is missing the required data to be tempered at a [[Skyrim:grindstone|grindstone]]. It is also missing a classification for weapon material, preventing it from benefiting from Smithing perks. This is perhaps explained by ''[[Skyrim:Admonition Against Ebony|Admonition Against Ebony]]'' which states that ''" ...Not even the hottest fires of the [[Skyrim:Skyforge|Skyforge]] could melt it ..."'' indicating that the Ebony Blade is immune to the effects of heat from any source. The sword has infinite magic uses and does not require recharging, which is some compensation for the lack of physical damage increases.
*Despite Farengar being allegedly aware of the Blade, you can actually sell it to him.
*You don't need to power up the Ebony Blade in order to gain the Oblivion Walker achievement.

== Bugs ==
{{Bug|The Ebony Blade is wielded in two hands, but is considered a [[Skyrim:one-handed|one-handed]] sword rather than a greatsword. This means that it gets the benefits of a generic [[Skyrim:two-handed|two-handed]] weapon, such as using and training the Two-handed general skill level, but also benefits from all the One-handed perks that apply to one-handed swords. Specifically, its damage, weight, weapon reach, sound files, impact force, and stamina usage are all configured to One-handed skill values. It also receives damage bonuses from [[Skyrim:Fortify One-handed|Fortify One-handed]] enchantments on your gear.|OSP|1.9.26.0.8|fixdetail=it changes the weapon's type to greatsword, and changes its type keyword from sword to greatsword. Note that the weapon retains all of its other old values - it still has the reach, speed, etc of a one-handed sword. However, the changes mean that it now behaves in all ways that interact with skills, perks, etc as a greatsword would.}}
**{{Pc22}} The [[Tes5Mod:Unofficial Skyrim Patch|Unofficial Skyrim Patch]] changes the weapon to behave like an Ebony Greatsword in all respects, except for its weight, which is changed to 12.
{{Bug|Both versions of the Ebony Blade can be placed upon a weapon rack, ''but neither will stay there''. This may result in the loss of the blade when it falls off into unreachable areas.|USKP|2.0.4}}
{{Bug|If the Ebony Blade is confiscated before killing ten friends, it will reset to its original version.|confirmed=1}}
**This will always happen during [[Skyrim:Diplomatic Immunity|Diplomatic Immunity]].</noinclude>

UESPWiki:Community Portal

2019-12-04T02:43:56Z

The Silencer: /* Skyrim NPC dialogue formatting */ comment

User talk:The Silencer

2019-11-13T12:29:38Z

The Silencer: /* Behaviour */ reply

{{ {{SUBJECTSPACE}}:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/DTR}}
{{notice|<center>I speak the truth, if you don't like it that's your problem.</center>}}

{{Archive Table
|Archive 2012 1|2012/1|March to April
|Archive 2012 2|2012/2|May to December
|Archive 2013 1|2013/1|January to June
|Archive 2013 2|2013/2|July to December
}}

{| class="wikitable"
|{{Userbox|purple|yellow|[[File:Gold Star.png|45x45px]]|I have seven [[User:The Silencer/Awards#Stars|stars]] :)}}
|{{Userbox|black|tan|[[File:Choco_chip_cookie.png|45x45px]]|I have two [[User:The Silencer/Awards#Cookies|items of nourishment]]:)}}
|}{{TOCright}}
{{NewLeft}}

== Spell IDs ==

Regarding Mysticism Spells page - I saw you reverted my revision regarding the wrong ID of the spell. What led me to believe the names listed on the page are actually IDs is that for almost all spells, Name == ID holds true.
Do you think it would be a good idea to add the ID in braces for spells that have an ID != name? (or use an asterisk, you get the idea) [[User:Scrawl|Scrawl]] ([[User talk:Scrawl|talk]]) 00:54, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

:It may be, certainly Skyrim and Oblivion have the ids listed. The problem might be that the vast majority of them (like most ids in Morrowind) are simply the name in lowercase. Maybe its best asked on the talk page of the Spells page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:06, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

::Actually IDs in morrowind are not case sensitive, so you could say the vast majority of spells have an ID equal to the name.[[User:Scrawl|Scrawl]] ([[User talk:Scrawl|talk]]) 21:36, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

== SMPS ==

Hey there Silencer, hope you are well! :)

I have real life things keeping me busy here for the next week. If you are able, could you throw up a thing or two on the SMPs (Facebook, Twitter - do you have G+ access?) in my absence? It would be much appreciated by our legions of fans! (They love us, they really love us!) If you can, please feel free! And if not, that's okay, too. Thanks in advance and drop me an email if you need anything! -- [[User:Avron the S'wit|Avron the S'wit]] ([[User talk:Avron the S'wit|talk]]) 18:44, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

:Sure, I'll feed their addiction. Just need some ideas. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:13, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

== OBHRP ==

Since [[User:Helenaannevalentine|Helenaannevalentine]] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Helenaannevalentine&oldid=1228159 retired] in August there has been no Project Leader (not active at any rate) for the project, since you're down as Project Advisor do you want to step up of offer it around, i'm not particularly interested but after some [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beezer1029&oldid=1274257 confusion] I thought it best to find someone to run the project. I plan on contributing (images and wiki-work) but i'm not brilliant at writing articles, but i'll volunteer if for some reason you don't want it (or anyone else does, since I was going to offer it up on the project's talk page). --[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 16:31, 29 January 2014 (GMT)

:I suppose I could, place pages are my specialty, and there isn't really anyone else there as a leader. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:23, 4 February 2014 (GMT)

== Character Templates ==

I stand corrected on the edit for [[Shivering:Brithaur (person)]]; but something occasionally weird is going on with the template parsing on this wiki - at least in Chrome. Ref/Base IDs get prefixed with unparsed template code. In the future I'll ignore it - but someone should probably investigate. My apologies for posting this on your talk page - as I realize this is probably better to post on the forums; however - the site refuses to send me the activation email. [[User:Digital Utopia|Digital Utopia]] ([[User talk:Digital Utopia|talk]]) 18:30, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
:To me that sounds like an internal caching problem that [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Purge|purging]] should cure. Hard to be sure with the problem gone, though. --[[User:Alfwyn|Alfwyn]] ([[User talk:Alfwyn|talk]]) 18:41, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
::Just to note: I had this problem earlier with mobile Chrome, purging the page didn't fix it, but it seems sporadic. Desktop Chrome appears (at first glance) unaffected. Though I see no difference in the edit shown and those IDs appear fine, desktop and mobile. --[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 19:04, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
:::Sporadic seems to be accurate. Clearing the cache will allow the server/wiki software another go at parsing/generating the page - but that doesn't do anything to fix the root cause. It seems doubtful that it's browser dependent, as it's not the browser's job to parse the wiki markup. So if wiki markup is "leaking" into the (HTML) page source, then somewhere server-side, there's an occasional hiccup.[[User:Digital Utopia|Digital Utopia]] ([[User talk:Digital Utopia|talk]]) 01:21, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
::::I found the problem. An update from just before Christmas never got pushed to the mobile servers, so anyone accessing those would see the wiki code. It's been fixed now. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:22, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
:::::Currently seeing this issue on desktop [http://i.imgur.com/mr4etq3.png Example]. Did some investigating - and found something curious. Clearing cache didn't do anything on Chrome - so I tried it out on Firefox, and it displayed fine. '''Until''' I logged in that is. When I logged in, I got the same result as I'm currently seeing in Chrome. So, maybe there's something odd going on with my account? Could it be the result of not getting around to finishing up my user page? I managed to get Firefox to return back to the correct display once, after clearing cache/cookies, but since then it's been stuck - as is Chrome, on the improperly displayed page. At any rate - I hope this helps to get to the bottom of it. [[User:Digital Utopia|Digital Utopia]] ([[User talk:Digital Utopia|talk]]) 01:38, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
::::::Yeah, that's the problem I was seeing yesterday on mobile, and I fixed it. I'm noticing that on purging the page, the problem is showing up again, but I've confirmed that my fix is in place, so it may be caching on our end that's causing the issue. I'll talk to Dave about it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 03:14, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
::::::Purging on content3 fixed that page for me. It looks like <code>#explodeargs</code> sometimes doesn't get parsed in [[Template:IDs2]], and the surrounding <code>#sub</code> chews up the start of it, but why it chews up so much on the RefID/BaseID line in the infobox I have no idea - <code><nowiki>{{#len:{{{sep}}}}}</nowiki></code> shouldn't be as long as that, it's just <code><nowiki> </nowiki></code> after all.
::::::It's quite a challenge to dig through the wiki to find the info on your extensions, though I must admit it's there. What I still don't get is why the <code><nowiki>"Added by"</nowiki></code> table row from [[Template:NPC Summary]] doesn't show up in the NPC infobox - is that what the <code><nowiki><cleantable></nowiki></code> tag does? --[[User:Mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:Mendel|talk]]) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
{{od}}I'm pretty sure the #explodeargs issue is just a case of it not having been rolled out on mobile originally, and now our memcached server probably has cached copies of it surfacing at random. I've asked the site owner to restart memcached, just so that we can rule that in or out as a cause. The template itself has been working fine (at least that I'm aware of) until just recently, so it seems unlikely that there's anything specific to the template, though we shouldn't rule it out completely.

As to your other question, <cleantable> is ''supposed'' to clean out rows where there's no useful data (e.g., a header cell with an empty data cell after it). That said, there are a few quirks/bugs to it, and the creator has left the site, so sometimes we have to work around those. So, if the "Added by" is empty and it's not appearing, that's expected behaviour; if it's being removed on a page where it actually was added by a mod, please let us know which page it's occurring on, so we can investigate. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:43, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
:I agree, the template code looks ok. The cleantable tab is also working as intended, it's just surprising at first to see wikicode "disappear". It's a neat hack, though. Thank you for your answer. --[[User:Mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:Mendel|talk]]) 05:22, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

== Perfect touch ==

You have done this on [[skyrim:pickpocket]] page:
(Undo revision 1277830 by 87.228.67.6 (talk) no, this list is potentially endless so there will be none)
However, it was not a list, but a correction of a previously existing note:
"Perfect Touch does not work on NPCs who wear unobtainable clothing, such as Astrid and Ulfric Stormcloak."
This note is missing the fact that PT perk does not work BOTH for non-playable clothing AND essential NPC. (And Ulfric's clothing can be obtained if he is killed later in the game, actually.)
Examples given by me were not a list, list is indeed very long, and maybe there should be no examples at all, but the fact of essential npc's immunity should be there, I think. Please, give it some consideration. [[User:Sergio Morozov|Sergio Morozov]] ([[User talk:Sergio Morozov|talk]]) 05:11, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

:I've readded the part on being essential and removed the mention of Astrid and Ulfric. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:38, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

::OKay =] [[User:Sergio Morozov|Sergio Morozov]] ([[User talk:Sergio Morozov|talk]]) 19:00, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

== Sorry about that ==

I'm pretty new at this, obviously, so not always sure where to put my questions. Thanks. [[User:Kellynne|Kellynne]] ([[User talk:Kellynne|talk]]) 01:50, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

:No problem. You can start a new section on the non-archived talk page if you need to. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:52, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

== Heavy Armor XP ==

The Heavy XP gain is based on the number of heavy items worn, and the unmitigated damage that a blow would cause even if armor and enchantments reduce the amount of actual damage the player receives. I tested this in detail, wearing unaltered an iron armor complete set while being attacked by a giant garnered no more XP than a legendary iron set with heavy armor enchants. The XP is not related to the damage that a player takes to their health, rather to the potential damage that a successful enemy blow would cause if they were wearing no armor at all.

The net result is that a blow that would cause 400 damage receives the same XP regardless of the actual damage that the player receives to their health.

Basic set plus giant strike = XP
Legendary set plus giant strike = Same XP as above

I was really surprised to discover this because the way the wiki currently reads the amount of XP is related to the amount of lost health. This is incorrect. It is worth testing yourself. {{Uns2|16:52, 22 February 2014|MyBreton}}

:What's your point? I only removed the advice on where to best farm damage, as that will never always be true and is pov. The only thing I did was remove the very basic information that having better defense means you can take on stronger enemies; thats a basic gaming standard true across almost every single game where you can equip armor. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:04, 22 February 2014 (GMT)

:: The way the page reads it make it sound like there is an advantage to use the lower quality armor to lose more health. The footnote on the [[Skyrim:Leveling|Leveing]] page makes good sense. "Raw damage" refers to the damage before armor is taken into account. We should use the same language to better clarify the Heavy Armor and Light Armor pages.

::To your point about using stonger items, this is not always the case in Skyrim, for instance using a legendary Dragonbone sword and 4 One handed enchants will garner no more experience than a plane old Dragonbone sword and no skill enchants. To level weapons faster it actually better to use their vanilla version. [[User:MyBreton|MyBreton]] ([[User talk:MyBreton|talk]]) 17:15, 22 February 2014 (GMT)

:::If the page reads elsewhere that there is an advantage the change it, I changed what you added to "The armor you wear does not impact skill gains." in the Gaining Skill XP section, so what you are saying to me is irrelevant. We're talking defense here not attack, if it were different then it would get some sort of note but its not for defense, your argument about attack is invalid in this context, especially as a note is on the One-handed page about that situation. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:21, 22 February 2014 (GMT)

== Hero ==

Thanks. I couldn't work out where I was going wrong :) --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:24, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

:Literally one character, but its a new thing to us all, still took me a few minutes to see that was all was wrong. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:26, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
::Yeah, I was basically doing "monkey see, monkey do" based on what you did on [[Online:A Hypothetical Treachery]], but I'll know for future. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:30, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
:::Oh wow, we've actually started using labelled section transclusion? We've had it sitting around for so long, pretty much unused. I'll be curious to see how we find it in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:50, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

== Save Values? ==

[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:The_Daggerfall_Chronicles&curid=116244&diff=1284366&oldid=1188003 This] is for references, correct? If so, it should probably go on the [[Books:The Daggerfall Chronicles|book article]] instead. The lore page is for an in-universe item. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:53, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

:<s>I'm trying to get the reference to work, when I input the cite book with the book version it displays a non formatted link (<nowiki>[[Book:The Daggerfall Chronicles|]]</nowiki>)</s>. As you can see I tried using a book link in the title parameter so it would autolink to the book page. The values already exist on the Book page. There is a slight difference in this and the versions for Lord of Souls and The Infernal City were they are redirects and take any requested values from the book page itself. And I just figured out why, its Books. Anyway, I'd still like to see it work so it can be reference more easily. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:03, 25 February 2014 (GMT)

::But it still linked to the Lore page. Looks like the problem was using "Book" instead of "Books" - I just made the same mistake on dev. I supplied the ns parameter, seems to work. --[[User:Alfwyn|Alfwyn]] ([[User talk:Alfwyn|talk]]) 17:20, 25 February 2014 (GMT)

== Question about achievements link ==

I recently started [[Online:Achievements]] and I noticed that you did some cleanup on it. I've edited infrequently in the past and so I'm unfamiliar with how things are supposed to go on UESP (like the fact that placeholders apparently shouldn't be used), and I was wondering why the [http://www.esohead.com/achievements listing of achievements] that I put in the Incomplete tag was removed. I had hoped that adding the link would be beneficial to other users, creating an easy reference that they could use to improve the page, including those who did not play the game in any of the betas. The only thing that you wrote in the edit summary was "Inappropriate", so I don't understand why it was removed. Is it because it's better suited for the article's talk page? Is there some taboo against linking to other reference sites? I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this so that I know what the expectations for UESP are. -[[User:Thunderforge|Thunderforge]] ([[User talk:Thunderforge|talk]]) 16:06, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

:Its inappropriate in two ways. ESOhead is another form of a wiki (though more just the technical side), and we should not be sending people there for information from our articles, especially not to copy it and place it here. It is up to our users to find the information and corroborate it themselves before adding it to the wiki. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:15, 3 March 2014 (GMT)
::Alright, thanks. I definitely meant it in good faith as a way to improve the pages quickly. -[[User:Thunderforge|Thunderforge]] ([[User talk:Thunderforge|talk]]) 16:25, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

== Redirect speedy deletions ==

According to the [[Project:Deletion Policy|Deletion Policy]], I don't think those redirects you've put up for deletion qualify for speedy deletion. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:18, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:Any specific ones? The talk page redirects should all have been deleted at the time, then there are a couple that are leftovers after people didn't know where to start them so made them in an existing namespace, and then a few from misnamed articles that were moved shortly afterwards. Any that were moved were moved a long time ago now and any in-use external links can reasonably be expected to have been updated. Most of the pages that could potentially be controversial were discussed and agreed to be deleted after a while (such as Lore:Tamriel (continent)). Of course we must take care to consider external links being broken, but except for the one example these are all small articles that have very little risk of being linked to anymore. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:: [[Battlespire:Screen Shots]] may be externally linked to, it's pretty ancient. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:10, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:::When an entire namespace was moved redirects were left for a year. 6 months should be long enough for one page that doesn't really have much impact on anything or is all that important. What we must not do is get in the thinking that pages should be kept because an uncontrolled external site has linked to it, we have enough redirects as it is. Our search still works for those that have an interest in finding something. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:17, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

::::I agree with your thinking on external links, though I know not everyone feels that way. I remember a discussion of this some time ago, and Wrye, at the very least, was strongly advocating to keep redirects if they were linked to externally.

::::As for the speedies, I was mostly looking at the talk page ones, since many of them are intentional cross-namespace redirects. That means they're not the result of a typo, they're not broken, they're not in mainspace, and they're not image redirects. I suppose they could be considered maintenance deletions (personally, I consider almost any orphaned redirect that's not a spelling variant or similar to be a trivial deletion), but since they were created deliberately, my feeling is that we should probably give them their full week as proposed deletions. I'm not strongly attached to that position, though, just trying to follow the rules. :) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:50, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:::::Just a comment on RH's first point: Wrye, his sole objection of any substance was that it meant links in his usermanuals for his file downloads where broken. Which shouldn't be the case for any of these, just to let you know. --[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 22:54, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

== Images ==

Ah, thanks for letting me know, I'll keep that in mind for next time. And maybe the orrery picture can be used for its future lore page or quest page perhaps. [[User:NovaNovik|NovaNovik]] ([[User talk:NovaNovik|talk]]) 14:59, 7 April 2014 (GMT)NovaNovik

== Hats, Helmets and Circlets ==

With regard to your revert [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim%3AFortify_Alchemy&diff=1314935&oldid=1314924 here]. Helmets and Circlets occupy one and the same equipment slot, no? The current listing, with Circlets separate from Helmets wrongly implies that more than four pieces with that enchantment can be equipped.

I don't really know what you meant with "Hats are Online". There are Hats as well as Helmets and Circlets in the single-player campaign as well, I merely added Hats for completeness' sake. Nevertheless, they all occupy the same equipment slot, so even if we disregard Hats, my point with regard to Circlets and Helmets occupying the same equipment slot still stands. I'm not entirely sure why you reverted. --[[Special:Contributions/89.0.233.204|89.0.233.204]] 20:15, 7 April 2014 (GMT)

:Helmets and circlets are not the same thing, especially concerning enchanting where items are split into more than just the six pieces of equipment you can generally wear. Hats are the name for a category of equipment in ESO, the same section is Hoods in Skyrim. I assumed you were adding the Hats as a misplaced edit on a Skyrim page rather than an Online page. Now that you bring it up again, I don't recall such a list on any other page of the same type, so it may need removed for consistency. Also, see the bugs on that page to see that helmets and circlets can be worn together. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:25, 7 April 2014 (GMT)
::[[Skyrim:Fortify Smithing]] contains a list of enchantable items as well. As far as bugs, I'd argue that bugs are not canonical and exploits involving bugs shouldn't influence the main content of articles. Anyway, I see that you're not interested in any input, so have it your way. Bye. --[[Special:Contributions/89.0.233.204|89.0.233.204]] 00:58, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

:::Thankyou for informing me of my intentions, it makes it much easier than having to form some of my own. You asked for an explanation of my edit and I gave you one, if you wish to debate a change on how things are presented you can ask on the talk page of the article, I am not the sole arbiter of how pages are displayed and your edit may very well be redone if you consider and show my reasoning to be wrong. By running of you show that it is you that is not open to debate, I will be here if you decide to return and contribute a little more constructively. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:04, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

::::If I might just add something - I think 89.0.233.204's intention was to note that the enchantment can be applied to all types of ''"headgear"'' - including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods. While light armor hats are in ESO, I think he may have been referring to the [[Skyrim:Hat#Hat|clothing hats]] in Skyrim, which can indeed be enchanted. Similarly, gauntlets, gloves and bracers can have the enchantment applied to them - but these all would come under the banner of "handgear". While the "Items to Enchant" header isn't on all the enchanting pages, personally I think it is of benefit to readers - provided its standardized across all of them. A catch-all term can be used to avoid confusion. Something like:

::::The <enchant name> effect can be applied to the following items:
:::::*Headgear (Including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods)
:::::*Handgear (Including gauntlets, gloves and bracers)
:::::*Necklaces
:::::*Rings

::::Just some thoughts. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:32, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

== removal of occupants & ores ==

Hi Silencer,

I've noted that occupants is for enemies only, and I'm just updating this page:[[Skyrim:Stendarr's Beacon|Stendarr's Beacon]] and noticed that it had occupants completed so I've removed them as Vigilants aren't enemies. I've also removed the Ore values from the header as they aren't in an interior, but I just wanted to confirm both of these are correct. {{Uns2| 00:22, 10 April 2014|Biffa}}

:Yes, as a wholly exterior zone it has no internal ore veins. A nice simple rule that won't lead to any confusion. I should get back to working on the project page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:27, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
::Yep that I can understand and comply with for both ores and occupants. [[User:Biffa|Biffa]] ([[User talk:Biffa|talk]]) 15:32, 11 April 2014 (GMT)

== Speed: ==

I assume this "fast travel" thing is about the fast travel loading screen time? Is there a formula in the Oblivion data files regarding the fast travel time (i.e. for every X point(s) of Speed gotten, fast travel is reduced by Y second(s)?)

It does seem odd how speed affects loading time. (certainly beats me). '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|Any Questions?]]''' 19:34, 10 April 2014 (GMT)

:That page has nothing to do with loading times, those are entirely beyond the control of the game. The page is concerned with the speed of travel in the game. Fast traveling consumes time, eg Anvil to the Imperial City takes 8 hours at 50 speed, but only 6 hours at 80 speed (times are completely made up but should show how it works). The same thing applies to horses; fast traveling on a horse takes less in game time than fast traveling while on foot. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:40, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
::So it's just that having a higher speed stat gets there at a quicker time; it won't make the loading screen pass in a femtosecond? '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|Any Questions?]]''' 19:45, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
:::Correct. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:48, 10 April 2014 (GMT)

== Help? ==

I'm trying to transclude [[Online:Loriasel Tablet, Entry 1]] and Entry 2 from [[Lore:Loriasel Tablet Notes]], but it hates me. For some reason, Entry 3 works? Any ideas where I'm going wrong? --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (GMT)
:I took a look at it; you accidentally started the section for Entry 2 with 'part1' instead of 'part2'. So you had two part1 starts and zero part2 starts. -- [[User:Hargrimm|Hargrimm]][[User talk:Hargrimm|(T)]] 16:49, 17 April 2014 (GMT)
::Hmmm, it seems I'm an idiot. Thanks! --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:02, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

== Staff of Magnus ==

Regarding your reason for undoing my edit, I think you misunderstood something. I'm on Xbox 360 and didn't abuse anything to repeat a quest. [[Skyrim:Aftershock|Aftershock]] is a repeating Radiant quest that can be started multiple times on any platform. I also tried simply waiting for the area to respawn (as long as 60 days) and there was no staff in the ash pile. I've thoroughly tested many combinations of waiting, starting and completing Aftershock, and starting it seems to be the trigger.
I'll leave it up to you whether to add my info back or not. [[Special:Contributions/70.209.64.190|70.209.64.190]] 12:56, 27 April 2014 (GMT)

:I see now. I misread it as the quest that takes you to Labyrinthine, which would make some sense at least. Why Aftershock does it is odd, but obviously at that stage the location can be accessed again. I will redo your edit. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:41, 27 April 2014 (GMT)

== Abouts ==

We should hold off on adding abouts to pages, because NPCs in ESO have the tendency to drop or add parts of the name when appearing in different areas. An NPC in one area might have a last name, and then appear as a projection or a vision during another quest without the last name, despite being the same NPC. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 04:19, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

:Alright. They'll be turned into redirects once known right? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:53, 12 May 2014 (GMT)
::Of course. Just need a good way to figure out which name is either first or used most often. The main ones I'm thinking of right now are a few Khajiit's in reaper's march who were referred with -ma attached and unattached to their name. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 11:10, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

:::Shouldn't we go with the full name as their main page, so long as its displayed ingame at some point of course. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:14, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

== Letter from Tillrani ==

Ack, sorry about that and thanks for moving it. -- [[User:Valadez|Valadez]]  [[User talk:Valadez| Talk ]][[Special:Contributions/Valadez| Contributions ]] 21:48, 16 May 2014 (GMT)

== Coldharbour ==

Good day, Silencer

I see that you undid my edit on {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}} based upon the rationale that it is given that Daedra inhabit Coldharbour as a plane of Oblivion, but my concern is that new users, those who want just quick information, or those not knowledgeable about the world of the Elder Scrolls would be unaware of this. The article does not mention anything about the Dremora that service {{Lore Link|Molag Bal}} or that {{Lore Link|Auroran}}s are (or used to be, depending on how the events of ESO play out) trapped inside his realm. I refferenced a book that tells us about this and could reference more (I planned to edit the page today) to include the name of one Dremora Clan that services Molag Bal (being the Deathbringers). I also believe that the last sentence of the first paragraph is misleading if you say that Daedra inhabiting the planes of Oblivion being fact as it both gives an exception to Coldharbour and implies that only Soul Shrivens inhabit the realm. "As opposed to other realms of Oblivion, Coldharbour is largely lifeless, instead filled with souls of the dead, called Soul Shriven, where they are tormented for eternity." I understand that nothing below absolute certainty should be used, but books found in ESO say otherwise about this Deathbringer Clan, and another book (cannot remember where or how, but talked about Draedroth [the lizard-like Daedra] also inhabiting the realm) talks about Draedroth being formed within Coldharbour as part of their re-forming process that Daedra go through when they die.

Thank you for reading, please reply! [[User:Rencini|Rencini]] ([[User talk:Rencini|talk]]) 12:46, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

: A lot of Daedra inhabit Coldharbour. There's no point being so specific about clans and such until we have all the information. I would suggest changing the wording of the Soul Shriven sentence to imply they dwell there along with the Daedra, but otherwise holding off on the details for now. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 13:52, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

::Incomplete info is not good on any lore article, the only thing worse is incorrect info. This is part of the reasoning behind locking page creation in lore when new games come out, people rush to add each bit of information they find as they find it, resulting in an incoherent page with conflicting statements. The restrictions are less harsh in the gamespaces (Online in this case), so adding info to the ON:Coldharbour page is fine as it will get more attention and will be quickly changed by someone who has found alternate sources. On the topic of Daedra, types of Daedra are only notable if they are not associated with the realm's Prince, but Daedra clans are a different thing (as far as see anyway). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:06, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

== "A" vs. "An" ==

If we're going by American English, "An historic" is incorrect. [https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/591/01/] [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 23:35, 30 May 2014 (GMT)

:An historic is not incorrect in American English. That link shows nothing to support an alternative argument. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:38, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
::[http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/words/a-historic-event-or-an-historic-event Have another then.] There's no "argument" because there's nothing to argue. This is a basic grammatical rule, you use "an" when the first phonetic sound is a vowel and "a" when the first sound is a consonant. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 23:41, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
:::That link says it is more logical and does not say that it is wrong to use 'an'. In fact it supports its usage as Bethesda has a history of using old forms of words and the grammar associated with them. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:44, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
::::Um, just because something is older/less common, it doesn't mean it's incorrect. According to the Oxford source people used to pronounce "historical" as "istorical" in the 18th-19th century, hence the "an", and in this context Bethesda was emulating a medieval-esque writing style; it should be expected that older rules and conventions are used. [[User:Quill-Tail|—<({Quill-Tail]][[User talk:Quill-Tail|>>]] 23:53, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
:::::Hence the addition of the sic template to let people know not to change it from the older English dialect to the more commonly-used modern form. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 23:57, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
::::::I've already fought a battle in having a sic tag incorrectly used for a correct word, I'm not interested in fighting that battle again so you can read over it and see the reasons why that reasoning is flawed; [[Lore_talk:The_Bear_of_Markarth]]. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
{{od}}I wasn't aware that there was already a discussion on the matter. If the community agrees that outdated linguistic patterns don't require sic tags, I'm okay with that, but I wish you had explained that to me in the first place. I kind of thought you were just being obstinate, I didn't realize you actually had something to support your position with. Also, I take issue with your assertion that my reasoning is "flawed". Given that Jeancey made the same assumption I did independently, I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret that template in multiple ways. If the community supports a decision, that's one thing, but could you maybe tell me that in a way that doesn't make it sound like you're talking down to me? [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 00:29, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
:The wikipedia policy on sics smacks of interfering bureaucrats poking their noses where they shouldn't. If a UESP policy on sics was written I would argue for more sensible and intelligent rules. Anyone who uses the wikipedia definition should seriously consider revising their knowledge on the English language. That's how I feel about that 'policy' and anyone who uses it. I apologise for any offence given and my short shrift in referring you to the other conversation rather than explaining properly that the flaws lie in the 'policy', and I am obstinate. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:41, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
::Thank you. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 13:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
:::Another option here is to create a "do not correct" template of some form (basically, {{tl|Sic}} with different text) or just add HTML comments to discourage editors from "correcting" what they believe is a mistake. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:00, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
::::That is never a path I would go down. Highlighting correctly used words suggests that we don't trust the intelligence of our readers. Hidden HTML tags should only be used as a very last resort when dealing with words that keep getting changed, because then we can point to that and show why it is needed. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:19, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

== Pets as Creatures ==

The [[Online:Pets]] page is supposed to document the items, not the creatures. The creature pages should be separate (e.g. [[Online:Mudcrab]]). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:00, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:It's an overview page of some creatures, same as passive creatures or undead. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:02, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:: Not really. The creatures themselves don't have labels (apart from the Dwarven spider, but the creature name is different than the item). The "pets" are items that you activate to summon the creatures, which is where the section headers come from, i.e. there's an item called 'Pet Imgakin', but no creature with that name. Additionally, we have the page listed [[Online:Items|here]]. In the future we may want to replace the sections with a table. Are you under the impression that it's a creature page because of the images? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:14, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:::Yes, the pictures, style, and prose of the sections is written as about the creatures, not an 'item' that summons a creature. You also wrote that Imgakin are visually different to monkeys but we don't have a page on Imgakin to that effect. It would help a lot if an opening paragraph detailing how to use said items to get a pet (e.g. keep them in your inventory, passive/active, how many at once). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:23, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:::: I could add some of those details now. A page for imgakin would be good too. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:48, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

== Orgnum ==

Thank you, could you please also delete Orgnum Thras redirect page? [[Special:Contributions/93.178.98.207|93.178.98.207]] 11:39, 11 June 2014 (GMT) (Phoenix_Neko)

:Talk page redirects are generally useless so there is no issue over that. On the Orgnum page a short discussion took place that decided to keep the redirect so I see no reason to delete the page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:41, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

::Well, the redirect is useless anymore. Yet, I'm surprised by your undo of my change at RPEH's talk page. As far as I can see, you did the upgrade of some link at the same talk page, so I thought it is okay. [[Special:Contributions/93.178.98.207|93.178.98.207]] 11:43, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

:::Userpages should be left alone as much as possible, and changing the link on that particular page could lead to confusion. Unused redirects are not always useless, but you can propose it yourself if you can show that there is no use for it at all (use the {{tl|Prod}} template because it has already been disputed). Of course if it does get deleted then the userpage link would have to be changed but that's another story. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

::::Thank you for clarification. Well, if I use {{tl|Prod}} I think that'd be helluva talking, so I'd rather pass. I suck at negotiations, for my English is far from excellent. [[Special:Contributions/93.178.98.207|93.178.98.207]] 12:16, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

:::::I'm normally a big fan of getting rid of useless redirects, but looking at the discussion that's now on [[Lore talk:Orgnum]], I'd say that that one should stay in. The "Thras" presumably came from somewhere, so unless it was purely a one-time user error when the page was created, someone might be looking for "Orgnum Thras", and even if they see [[Lore:Orgnum]] pop up in the search, it may not be clear that the two are indeed the same. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 13:59, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

== Real world NPC names ==
I thought it was common to write down information about real world connections of NPC names in the "Notes" section as a curiosity. I recall seeing it earlier in other articles but I can't find an example now. Is this a new policy? Personally I thinks it is fun to see if a (assumed) fantasy name actually is a real name in another language/country. /Fredrik, Sweden. 20:36, 24 June 2014 (GMT)
:There have been discussions over name terminology, and I think we've come down to only allowing this in case it's relevant to the character. The fact that a name is common in Sweden is hardly noteworthy, given that many of the names in Skyrim are Scandinavian names. An example of where it would be noteworthy is Vilkas and Farkas, which both mean wolf, which fits their lycanthropy ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 20:48, 24 June 2014 (GMT)
::Yeah, of course. It makes sense. Actually the main reason for adding it from the beginning was that I think I've read somewhere that Christer has an additional meaning, namely that it can also mean "big and strong". This definitely does not fits Christer^^. Unfortunately I couldn't find a source other than Wikipedia. Thanks for your time and for contributing to UESP! /Fredrik {{Uns2|21:04, 24 June 2014|90.230.93.89 }}
:::Etymologies that are what the character is are acceptable (Farkas means wolf, and he's a werewolf). Etymologies that don't fit are not documented due to subjectivity in determining whether it was deliberate or not. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:15, 24 June 2014 (GMT)

== Light Blue Regalia and Amiable Fanriene ==

Hello. Regarding the changes I made to the [[Shivering:Orinthal|Orinthal]], [[Shivering:Dancer|Dancer]] and [[Shivering:Amiable Fanriene|Amiable Fanriene]] pages, I can understand you reverting my edits. I only made the changes to be consistent with the [[Shivering:Sontaire|Sontaire]] and [[Shivering:Tilse Areleth|Tilse Areleth]] pages, where the clothing has been capitalized. The small section I removed on the Amiable Fanriene page didn't make grammatical sense to me: "He wears typical Mania outfit: a light blue regalia." and so I felt that it could be simplified. In addition (as far as I know) only two NPCs wear this outfit (Amiable Fanriene and the Dancer) so calling it a "typical Mania outfit" doesn't seem quite right. Perhaps: "He wears a vibrant Light Blue Regalia." would be more fitting? I look forward to hearing your thoughts. [[User:AquaticPossum|AquaticPossum]] ([[User talk:AquaticPossum|talk]]) 19:43, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

:One of the worst types of thinking is 'one page does it so lets spread it everywhere else', it was so inherently wrong to cap the names of clothing that I couldn't even think of a logical reason to type in to the summary. While the exact type of clothing may be limited in scope, it fits the general Mania style of clothing so there's no reason not to mention it, though I accept the grammar could be improved. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:54, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

:: Items used to be capitalized as they appear in-game, but that was changed after Skyrim came out. Obviously some of the Shivering Isles articles weren't updated to reflect this. I agree that the wording on Amiable Fanriene's page was a bit clunky; hopefully [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering%3AAmiable_Fanriene&diff=1363678&oldid=1363453 this change] is satisfactory. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:10, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

::: My apologies for not creating this section at the bottom of the page. Good to know about the practice of not displaying certain items exactly as they appear in-game, I'll bear that in mind for the future. The new wording sounds good to me. [[User:AquaticPossum|AquaticPossum]] ([[User talk:AquaticPossum|talk]]) 22:09, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

::::Just because they aren't capitalised doesn't mean it isn't correct. The items on their own page (i.e. the clothing page) shows the items name as seen in-game, but when using it in a sentence it is proper to not capitalize it, just as you wouldn't cap horses or bandits. The items are not displayed in a sentence in-game when you see them, and when items are they are capped properly (i.e. the way it is done here). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:28, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

== Regarding Marker Icon vs Service Icon ==

I was just wondering your reasoning behind using a place link, description and marker icon for stalls in [[ON:Royal Bazaar|Royal Bazaar]], and redirecting to a merchant. What I have been doing, eg for [[Online:Port Hunding's Open Marketplace|Port Hunding's Open Marketplace]], is just naming the stall and its merchants and using the service icon (stalls' individual pages redirect to the Marketplace page). I'm not saying either way is necessarily better than the other, but at certain stalls there is more than one merchant, meaning redirecting to a merchant may not work, and some stalls do not have names. Also, by using Marker Icon, the icon appears fuzzy and on the left of the stall name, whereas the icon belongs to the merchant (and not their stall). Service Icon is much crisper and also links to the correct vendor page. (See also Store Icons vs Vendor Icons at [[User:Enodoc#Store Types]], as I think at some point we were discussing possibly splitting some Stores into different types.) --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 14:37, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

:The redirects are being created so I thought it better to use them. Service Icon didn't work inside the description template so I used the marker one instead. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:53, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

::Oh that's odd. Maybe it doesn't know how to #save a template? I'll have a play around and see what happens. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:46, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

:::It seems that during the #save/#load process it does not fully parse the link. Perhaps the best thing to do then, to stop fuzzy icons appearing in the wrong places, would be to do <nowiki>{{Place Link}} followed by {{Service Icon}}</nowiki>.
:::In the example of Aralas' Arcane Implements, it would be <nowiki>{{Place Link|Aralas' Arcane Implements}} {{Service Icon|Mystic}}</nowiki> to give
:::*{{Place Link|Aralas' Arcane Implements|mapname=none|ns_base=Online|marker_icon=}} {{Service Icon|Mystic|ns_base=Online}}
:::I think this would be a tidier way to do it, particularly in the case of more than one merchant per store (the icons can all be lined up at the end). --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 13:05, 7 July 2014 (GMT)

== The image i posted ==

I deleted it, i found it on google images and i didn't know there was any documentation required, so do i still need documentation if i deleted the image. {{Uns2|22:31, 10 July 2014|Wubonater}}

:Not if you request an admin to delete the image itself, removing it from the page isn't enough if you do not want to use it. Post the {{tl|Speed}} template on the file page to request deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:35, 10 July 2014 (GMT)

== i have a question ==

how do i Document an image, i have images of arena that the arena page can use, and if i took the picture do i have to document it {{uns|Wubonater|09:48, 11 July 2014 (GMT)}}

:Proper documentation involves applying an appropriate license and attribution to the creator. In this case if you have taken the images ingame yourself, you merely need to select the license uespimage (under the "UESP Screenshots only" header) when uploading the image. Your username is automatically applied to the file in accredit you with that image. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:58, 12 July 2014 (GMT)

== Stormhold ==

Just wanted to let you know that I've reverted your use of the {{tl|bug}} template in the [[Stormhold]] namespace, which I've [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Stormhold%3AGetting_Started&diff=1199117&oldid=1105354 done before] on account of it screwing with the layout and being of no practical use in the namespace. Since the game's NPCs have a single bug between them, there's no reason to apply irrelevant standards like superfluous bulletpoints and a plural heading over style. Thanks. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 02:58, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

:Well thats just wrong, there is no reason why Stormhold should be exempt from the same style layout such as plural headers (which are a wiki standard not just UESP), and the bug format, which also serves to show the bug is confirmed or needs confirmation. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:01, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

:: As I said, superfluous bulletpoints and incorrect pluralisation of a single bug. No one is going to confirm the bug because no one plays Stormhold, so unless you want to test it out yourself I imagine you'd be dependent on either me or Krusty for confirmation - and since I added the bug, that's a no-no. The "bug format" is for games that require a list layout, and the confirmation requirement was brought about by the huge variance of play in the sandbox games, which is kind of ridiculous to impose on a simple Java mobile game. Those sections are not lists, they are documentation of a single bug written in prose. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 03:08, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

:::Again your concerns are invalid, the use of the nobullet parameter would restore the layout you wish to see, and the header format isn't questionable, all headers should be plural, be they for a single sentence or a single image, it really isn't up for debate unless you wish to rewrite the entire style layout. You say/suggest that Krusty has played the games, so a quick check with him to confirm the bug is all that is needed, and then even that issue is resolved. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:24, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

== Warning ==

{{Warning|Your personal attacks against [[User:Biffa|Biffa]] are out of line. This kind of behavior has to stop, for the good of the Wiki. As a long standing contributor, you should have known this. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 00:53, 17 July 2014 (GMT)}}

:Glad to see that another person has decided to read into a situation they know nothing about, thanks. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:58, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
::You're really not making yourself look any better here. Play the victim all you like, but the fact remains that YOU were the one who started that confrontation, YOU were the one who broke the etiquette policy (in fact, you openly defied it), and YOU are consequently the one in the wrong here. Any outside observer (which both Dominus and I were) could clearly see that your comments were inappropriate. This warning is entirely justified, so just take it as a learning experience and we can all move on without this kind of thing happening again. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 01:04, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
:::This is completely unwarranted. How can you claim neutrality yet bring up a separate topic within that comment of your's, all while avoiding the issue at hand. I barely touched breaking the etiquette policy, while Biffa clearly broke it saying I 'gone out of your way to make thing unpleasant for me on this site.' Warning me 'for the good of the wiki' when I was trying to engage an editor and improve their clearly flawed methods is so ironic it hurts. Get back to me when you can contribute to the issue of Biffa's testing methods. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:49, 17 July 2014 (GMT)

== Icons ==

Per [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Isolated_House&curid=6114&diff=1376448&oldid=1376441 this], can you point me towards where this was standardised? As far as I can tell it hasn't been fully implemented (see [[Skyrim:Dawnguard Places]] for example), and I don't see the point in mislabelling places for the sake of having an icon. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:31, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

:The template was created for the express purposes of pages like those ones. It is used for places that have a type but lack an icon, where others of the same type have an icon. A handful of the places on the Dawnguard page are worldspaces, for which there is no icon. As a repetitively new addition (January '13), being introduced between games it isn't surprising that many pages don't have it yet. The template does not mislabel anything, when used in the place link template it indicates what type of building it is, not that it has an icon on the map. This template was made after the Place Link template was changed from deriving the icon directly from the saved value for the type, and instead taking the marker id value (which these pages lack), so in essence there was no outward change, it is simply a continuation of how things were done. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:48, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

== Joke ==

That block reason is a joke, at what point was I intimidating, or are you just afraid to answer my questions? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:48, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

== Blocked ==

{{Blocked|1=This IP address has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki for one week for persistent abuse of other editors. Your attitude is nothing short of toxic at this point, and your contributions have become disruptive. If you wish to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing Blocks|appeal the block]], you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. ⇠[[User:Eshe|eshe]]'''[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]''' 22:50, 5 August 2014 (GMT)}}
As a side note, if you continue to abuse other editors using the privilege of editing your talk page, that right can be removed as well. Please take this time to reconsider your attitude toward other members of this community. ⇠[[User:Eshe|eshe]]'''[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]''' 22:51, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:You don't know the meaning of abuse of power do you? Of course I appeal this nonsense on the grounds that you don't know what you are doing. You and the other administrators have deliberately lied in my appeal over my warning, have willingly broken policies to support your lies, and generally have no idea what you are doing. What abuse have I committed now? Do you think I would just lie down and let you misuse your administrative tools? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:54, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
:Block and run Eshe, block and run. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:00, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::I've been following the discussion at the Admin Noticeboard, and you have persisted in name-calling the administrators, accusing them of being delusional, liars, and so forth. Normally I'd be inclined to say that they should respond in kind, but they have consistently been more reasonable with you than you have been with them. You keep acting like they have committed some horrible injustice against you, yet the evidence for their case against you is plastered all on the admin noticeboard, and you have escalated this to the point where you are figuratively foaming at the mouth and getting yourself blocked for blatant personal attacks on this site's staff. You seem like a great editor, and it would be a shame to lose you, but you have either completely missed the entire point of that previous discussion or completely ignored it. You received your warning for your attitude, the way you have been attacking people with your comments (it's not subtle), and now you continue doing the same thing against the administrators in some naive attempt to do what? Do you not understand what you are doing or do you just not care? ∬([[User:RisingDusk|''RisingDusk'']])[[User_talk:RisingDusk|'''dxdy''']] 23:03, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:::If the truth were spoken there would be no lies. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:16, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
{{ec}}It's unfortunate that it's come to this. For three weeks, I haven't seen any more misbehavior on your part, and I was really hoping that you had cooled down and that we could all move past this. Like elliot before you, you've responded to a singular, relatively minor incident by actively transforming it into a much larger one that necessitates action. Given that the incident that got elliot banned involved you, I would have thought you'd be able to see the parallels between your two situations. Maybe you did and you just don't care, since you were the only one pushing for your rights to be removed.
The funny thing is, if you hadn't revived that discussion today, I would have been willing to forgive the things you said earlier as a moment of (admittedly extreme) passion. You're a good editor, yet you were willing to throw all that away over some misplaced sense of pride. I know you know better than this, but it really doesn't matter. You've got what you were after, so if you have any desire to return to editing in a week, you should refrain from any more jibes. "Unfortunate" is the only word I can think of to describe this episode. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 23:19, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:When I and my words are twisted and given false meanings I will defend myself, its a pity people choose to accept the lies rather than the truth. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:23, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::In order to avoid edit warring or angering Silencer, can the notice please read "This account ..." rather than "This IP address ..."? I didn't think it was tampering with the warning (It only made it a valid phrase), but Silencer considered it to be so. May I know why you reverted it Silencer? ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 00:01, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
:::Silencer was correct in this case. His IP address has been blocked from editing, not just his account (I think that's how that works), and he is right that you're not supposed to mess with block messages, even for clarity's sake. It's kind of like how we don't fix typos in other users' posts. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 00:12, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
::::Note that due to The Silencer's response to Eshe with its myriad personal attacks, I have re-blocked him without the ability to edit his talk page. Those of you who wish to communicate further will have to do so by e-mail. For the time being, his ability to e-mail is also not blocked, so he can also contact anyone he feels he needs to by e-mail. If that becomes problematic, please post here and that setting can be changed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:57, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

== Appeal ==

The appeal to the block which I received by abuse of power.

Why do I need the ability to edit? Because even in a reduced role I am still the one cleaning up edits, keeping them inline with the style and policies of the wiki where others do not.

What pages? None specifically because the nature of my edits are mostly from the random pages link, cleaning up other edits, or following things such as new files and adding anything missing.

Examples? Again, the nature of my edits preclude being able to provide an example. Look at my contributions and you'll see no pattern.

Being unable to show anything specific doesn't help, but an example of the workload I bore would be the vast increase in unpatrolled edits in the last (almost) month from a rather small pool of around 10 a day left to anywhere between 20 and 50.

I may have called the admins involved liars, but I can and did prove it. Blocking me for stating the obvious and seeking answers and some integrity is hardly a fit reaction. A week is hardly a fit response to being called out on a lie. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:15, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
:The "proof" you claim to offer in your personal attacks is not recognized as such by anybody else on the wiki, nor is the alleged abuse of power. Given the fact that your revival of 3-week old issues and needling of other editors (which can only be intentional on your part, judging by your mention of "burning bridges" in your edit summaries [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=1369210&oldid=1369209 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=1369213 here]), not to mention the fact that getting blocked was [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=1369214&oldid=1369213 YOUR] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=1376885&oldid=1376875 idea], I see no reason the block should be removed. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 23:40, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::Thank you for twisting my words. I said I would rather be blocked than warned, not that I wanted blocked, or that I agreed that I should be. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:46, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:::Silencer, I recently emailed you questions that are related to this. I honestly want to know what your side of this story is. Perhaps you would be willing to share it in order to increase the chances of your appeal? I don't personally see any issue with the administrator actions, although I am admittedly biased because I issued the original warning. I feel that you have not provided enough proof, although perhaps I am just missing it. I can see Silencer's point. Although, if we are to go through with that, there is really no point in this appeal. After all, it would be a permanent block rather than a temporary one. If Silencer can provide proof in the forms of diffs, either publicly or privately, I will support the removal of the block. Until then, or if he is unable to prove it to my satisfaction, I think it should remain.

:::You are a great editor, and I honestly regret pulling the trigger and putting this all in motion. Was it necessary at the time? Yes, I believe it was. I do regret it honestly and would like to apologize for everything. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 23:57, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::::I see no emails from you in my inbox, and why should I discuss anything with you when you didn't even feel the need to clear up any possible issues before starting this. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:03, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

:::::Strange. It must have been put into your spam folder then. I told the software to send me a copy, and I have that copy. You have every right to refuse to discuss it with me. As my email not being received shows, even if I tried to clear up any issues (I did not contact you, but I did suggest that you both take a break and calm down) it wouldn't have made a difference. I was merely throwing the option out there. You have no obligation to follow through with that. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 00:08, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

::::::So it is (I didn't see anyone else's mail in there though for those who might ask). If the date on it is correct (3rd August) then its a little late for that kind of question seeing as you'd given the warning over two weeks beforehand. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:19, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

== Defile ==

While I did say it there, what relevance has that discussion to the recent one? Pity I wasn't invited to my own trial to learn how far back we'd go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:20, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:You brought it up, not me. On Biffa's talk page, you provided a link accusing him of mocking you. That response was to your "defiling" post. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:53, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

== Bug fixes are never guaranteed ??? ==

Excuse me, but what exactly does this mean? Does this mean unofficial fixes may or may not work, depending on various conditions? Unlike Morrowind and Oblivion I don't have the time to concern myself much with Skyrims's internal processing (Creation Kit, Papyrus scripts etc.), but judging from the previous games, I assume most bugs can be fixed on the fly without starting a new game, or is Skyrim so much different than it's predecessors? And even If this was the case, I'm using the USKP v2.0.4a since I've started the second playthrough of the game, so bugs that are claimed to be fixed by even lower versions should no longer occur, right? And last I would also be interested in how the UESP defines a "game bug". Is a bug just a feature of the game or a certain quest which is defined, but for some reasons, does not work as intended? Or is a bug also an illogical game- or quest-feature (this is my definition of a bug, at least when it comes to computer games) e.g. contingents of hostile troops and equipment remaining after a hold was taken by one of the two waring sides? Since a couple of such "bugs" I've been submitting during the past months have already been removed, I would be interested in some enlightenment regarding this obscurity.--[[User:PLRDLF|PLRDLF]] ([[User talk:PLRDLF|talk]]) 22:59, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

:It means that the fix is not guaranteed to fix it, even in the official patches. Some bugs are more inherent in the game and require more work even though the 'fix' appears to work. An easy example is the 'backwards flying dragons' that were the result of an attempted fix for something else, causing more problems than there were in the first place. There is no policy on what is and what isn't a bug for the site, its mostly subjective, though things like spelling mistakes and grammar in books is not considered a bug as they can easily happen in real life, whereas the USKP changes any it finds. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:19, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

== Pointless edit ==

How is it a pointless edit to remove an underline within a link, which are supposed to be removed? [[User:Biffa|Biffa]] ([[User talk:Biffa|talk]]) 08:53, 17 August 2014 (GMT)

:Underscores are not supposed to be removed, it is a choice for the user to use either. The majority of users will remove them when doing other things to the page, but an edit to remove them on its own serves no other purpose than to bump your edit count. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:04, 17 August 2014 (GMT)
::While I agree that removing the underscores in a link is essentially pointless, I have seen other people (including me) make similar edits that have no real effect on the article, and may just be the result of low-grade OCD (in my case). According to the [[Help:Links#Page Names|Links]] page, either form is fine for internal links, so undoing it is just as pointless, and both edits add unnecessary entries to the Recent Changes list. A friendly note on Biffa's talk page would have probably been a more appropriate action here, especially considering the recent history between the two of you. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 05:17, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

:::Pointless edits are heavily discouraged across all wikis, to the extent that undoing them is the correct action. I'll thank you to know the correct response to them before saying the wrong thing. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:28, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

::::Per [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary|Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary]], "Don't revert an edit because it is unnecessary — because it does not improve the article. For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse." – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:35, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

:::::This is about pointless edits, and what to do when that happens, not the general thinking. Focused policies often have exceptions to the general rules. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

== SRHRP Header standardization ==

Hey Silencer -
Was wanting to standardize the headers in the Skyrim Houses pages, as they are pretty much all over the place. I posted this on the [[UESPWiki talk:Skyrim Houses Redesign Project#Header uniformity?|project discussion]] but was advised to double-check with you and Krusty (cc'd on this). I was hoping to start cleaning up some of the Houses, but wanted your input on headers before I do. I was proposing:
==Header 1, no italics, for main space, i.e., The White Phial, Bob's House==
===Header 2, no italics, for any zones===
Let me know your thoughts. --[[User:Beezer1029|Beezer1029]] ([[User talk:Beezer1029|talk]]) 22:28, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

== Not-so-blind Falmer? ==

I'm just curious where it says that the Falmer aren't completely blind. You're way more up on your Lore than I am, so I don't doubt the accuracy of {{Pl|Skyrim:Muffle (effect)|diff=1392378&oldid=1392358|your statement}}, but I'd always thought they were completely blind and I'm curious to read (or listen to, whatever) whatever it is that mentions that it's not total. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:08, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

:Their Blindness value is only {{CSList|game=sr|formid=00052ff480|80%}}, though lore (and the general lack of eyes) suggests they have total blindness. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 02:02, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

::Ah, got it! Thanks. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:27, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

== Regarding Civil War Forts ==

My apologies for "edit warring". My computer has been acting up and I thought it wasn't saving my edits. And I was merely putting on Fort Snowhawk what was already on Neugrad and Sungard(which i did not edit). Don't know how to do the verify on the edits. Also, didn't know you commented on my discussion topic because I had been waiting for a response for a week and no one said anything so I decided to edit the page myself. From what I can see, if I side with the Empire, forts in Imperial holds stay occupied by enemy factions, however forts in Stormcloak holds become occupied by Stormcloak troops. The only way to garrison Imperial soldiers is to conquer Stormcloak-controlled forts. The only exception is Fort Greymoor which has become correctly occupied by Imperial soldiers after defending the city of Whiterun. I do not know if the reverse is true (siding with the Stormcloaks/fighting the Empire). [[Special:Contributions/71.171.112.31|71.171.112.31]] 22:11, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

:No worries, but lets keep the comments all in one place now, on Fort Snowhawk's talk page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:25, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

::I have since read and commented on Fort Snowhawk page. So let us continue the discussion. [[Special:Contributions/71.171.112.31|71.171.112.31]] 22:32, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

== Weye ==

I noticed [[Oblivion:Weye|Weye]] being considered a village, while it is definitely the house of Aelwin Merowald (without the UOP). I was wondering if the house can be integrated on that page, since both have the same name, because currently the house info is still on Aelwin's page (and his house is also incorrectly stated as "Weye's Farmhouse") ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 14:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

:Weye includes both the inn and the house if I'm not mistaken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:25, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

::Yes, but I'm asking if the house info would be included on that page as a separate section ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 17:56, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

:::No, it would go on the house page, which would need created and disambiguated. My opinion on that would be to just add "Weye (house)" without moving "Weye". [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:04, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

::::Yes that occurred to me after I just posted. Weye should be moved to Weye (settlement) or something though ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 18:10, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::Not necessarily, as the settlement has more priority, and the opening sentence can easily be changed to explain the difference with a link, or the use of an about if the need is felt. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

::::::Well it's easier to do it your way, I'll go ahead and create the Weye (house) page, and I'll move the current image and reupload one of both buildings ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 18:22, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

== Skyrim:Asta ==

I removed that note saying: ''"She is a member of the [[Skyrim:Bandit (class)|bandit]] class, which determines the level of her skills."'' You came along, and, for starters, I noticed you had pressed the "undo" option and then pressed "'''save changes'''", which had undone my edit saying in the edit summary: ''"so are a lot of other things in the article"''. Tell me then: if by you saying there are a lot of other things in the article, then why are they not removed then? Pages need consistency. If pages had consistency, there would be a note on every NPC page saying: ''"<NPC name goes here> is a member of the <class name goes here>, which determines the level of his/her skills."''. It isn't on every NPC page, so it is a little more than obvious it is something that he wiki lacks consistency of. Please could you explain why you had to undo my edit? '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|#:)]]'''|
:In my opinion, notes like that should be removed because I really don't think an NPCs class is worthy of a note. Also because it's not on all of the Skyrim NPCs' pages. Maybe it's there because Asta doesn't seem like a bandit therefore her class is a curiosity? I don't know for sure, but this is just my opinion. On another note, I don't think you meant to come across this way, but please, please, please watch the tone you use when writing a talk page message, especially regarding an undo. I can understand that it's frustrating sometimes, but please try and have a more friendly and positive tone so there aren't any unnecessary and completely avoidable conflicts. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 12:39, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
::If my memory serves, the reason those lines exist is because of a discussion a while back regarding NPCs who have classes that are incongruous with their actual function, as we normally start NPC articles with (Name), a (race) (class). It's so the class can be noted in the article without describing the NPC misleadingly, so we don't end up calling Farkas a blacksmith or describe all the NPC's who use the Dremora class as dremora when they are not. --[[User:Anil|AN|L]] ([[User talk:Anil|talk]]) 14:31, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
:::Class is extremely relevant to an NPC, especially ones that are involved in combat. As such it is a requirement to have it mentioned in the description, but in some cases the class does not reconcile with the NPC without speculating or making unsubstantiated assumptions and so it was agreed that in those cases it could be removed from the main description and placed as a note (which made no assumptions or guesses but simply states facts). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:44, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
::::For anyone interested, the extensive discussion about this can be found [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_33#Introductory_Sentence_of_NPC_Pages|here]]. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 17:48, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
:::::Asta ''is'' technically a bandit. That's what the CK says anyways. Also, as a side note, I am not quite sure that— Oh. Wait. Maybe it is incorrect. Thr discussion on "Introductory Sentence of NPC Pages" is irrelevant to mentioning the NPCs class in the "Notes" section '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|#:)]]''' 17:55, 11 October 2014 (GMT)
::::::This isn't a debate on whether or not it should be there, if you want to remove them all start a topic on the community portal. The note is correct as of the current policies. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:17, 11 October 2014 (GMT)

== Neither prettier nor better ==

Is it really more aesthetically pleasing to have ‡‡ and ††† as footnote markers? Is it really more pleasing to have "N/A" instead of a clean "—"? What wording was changed so significantly that it would be confusing? Can you cite the previous instances of such wording being confusing? —[[User:Proton|Proton]][[User talk:Proton|[talk]]] 21:59, 19 October 2014 (GMT)

:Yes, it is better to have them because it is consistent with the rest of the site, these are the preferred markers. N/A is clear (the plain English part) in what it means, more than a semi-random dash that needs to be interpreted. Many of the individual artifact pages have had questions and/or edits based purely on the misconception and plain ignorance of tempering requirements, mainly for enchanted items where Arcane Blacksmith is needed to temper it, but an additional perk is needed to get the doubling effect of the tempering. Also, the preferred style on those sort of pages is passive, a giving of information, rather than a how-to, as this is better for imparting clear information that doesn't require any interpretation to asses the facts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:23, 19 October 2014 (GMT)
::Thank you for the cohesive response. While I feel that numerical footnotes are superior to obtrusive repeated daggers, I'm not quite motivated enough to do a mass revamp across the wiki, so I'll leave out as is for the meantime.

== Player Speed ==

According to the Race talk page, the people were testing it with the player character, and the height of the character changed the speed. Everything I've heard also points to this being the case. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:56, 20 October 2014 (GMT)

:I didn't get an edit conflict or add it back after your undo (as you can see by my summary). I had a look on the talk page after I added the sentence because I believe that your character does use a "standard" setting (i.e. always at 1), as observed by your character always having the same viewpoint, and that the height number might be a multiplier to your character (which allows for the same view to all races when in dialogue), but lacking the creation kit I cannot test that. The people on the talk page seem to be discussing and using the scale setting rather than a proper test on the height setting, as users Warrior7 and BlackTheAltmerMage make note of. Most of it appears to be guesswork based on observation without test too, with only one I'd class as a proper test, but that method was questioned, so I'd like a proper check on the player's height if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:17, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
::You wouldn't have gotten an edit conflict since you just added to the original version, not really modified it. You would have only gotten a conflict if the sentence that was originally there was changed in some way. I would think this would be fairly easy to test. Just make a character identical in every way except race. Say a male altmer vs a male bosmer. Record how long it takes each to run a straight distance (like the bridge in front of windhelm). If they are the same, then the height doesn't affect speed. If they are different, then it does. To be safe I would drop everything from your inventory for each character, so that every aspect is the same. One of the reasons they were testing the player scale (from what I can gather) is that it is possible that the change isn't affecting speed but the scale itself. So altmer's scale is 1.05, and a bosmer's scale is .95. The scale affects the speed, but the speed multiplier stays at 1.00. I could be wrong though, but I think that's why they were using the player's scale to test it. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 22:38, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
:::That's the way it worked in Oblivion. Rpeh and I tested it fairly thoroughly. All the in-game console commands showed a speed multiplier of 1, but running across the stupidly long bridge in front of the Imperial City, it was very clearly different between the different races. I just tested on the Windhelm bridge with similar results, using the console SetRace command to quickly switch with an otherwise identical character. With a female Altmer, I ran across the bridge in about 23 seconds; with a female Breton, it took 26. (Just read the thread in question...glad to hear we got the same values! I'll try again with "real" characters shortly.) I repeated the test several times with each to be sure. Also, your viewpoint does change between races, though you have to be standing right up against something like a door with a pattern on it to notice. But standing against the Windhelm door, clearly, as a Breton, the center of the screen was lower than as an Altmer. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:56, 21 October 2014 (GMT)
::::Thanks, I don't tend to get that close to things to notice any real difference, and a proper test using the pc rather than simple observation is better. I think that it being the same mechanics in Oblivion is the clincher here, as well as you getting the same results as the only other pc based test. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:24, 21 October 2014 (GMT)

== Civility ==

Please remain [[wikipedia:Civility|civil]]. [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJeancey&diff=1400142&oldid=1400112 This] kind of behaviour is completely out of line. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 13:57, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:Excuse you me, but an admin has offended me twice, and twice refused to even comprehend the possibility that they are mistaken, despite evidence being proven. Unless you too wish another inquest into [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard#Legoless_de-admin_request|your unacceptable behaviour]], I suggest you implore the other admin to use their common sense and stop avoiding the issue. I am well within my rights to suggest a warning might be in order, no matter who the person is, unless you are suggesting that admins have special privileges? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:08, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::Okay, I am going to jump in here and say that Silencer, your comment could be perceived as uncivil. This reply was also rather rude to Legoless, but I can see your point. I think that the way you suggested the warning was the problem, not the suggestion itself. Overall, I think your words are misinterpreted as mean or harsh, despite that not being your goal. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 14:26, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::My goal is to get a response from Jeancey that is in direct relation to the insults he threw my way, either an apology or a defense of those comments. He has offered nothing except some conceptualized idea of a policy that he believes in, that in no way mitigates the actions he took. The only real surprise is that no admin took it upon themselves to try and silence me earlier, and every attempt at doing so is worthy of a warning itself. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:32, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::What insults did he throw your way? I only skimmed the passage and haven't read previous remarks between the two of you. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 14:38, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::If the insults are so hidden for you, yet you can justify Legoless's unjustifiable comments, then you cannot be trusted as a mediator. He accused me multiple times of breaking multiple policies, something I have never done. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:43, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

{{od}} Jeancey has commented only twice on that topic, and neither post includes any mention of policies, they both just say that he doesn't think the images should be deleted without contacting the user. I understand where you're coming from Silencer, but outrage and accusations will get you nowhere. --[[User:Anil|AN|L]] ([[User talk:Anil|talk]]) 14:48, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:And comments such as ''"here we go again...."'' show exactly the type of people who are unsuitable to hold a neutral position. If you cannot be civil stay off my page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:51, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::{{ec|2}} In that conversation, the only thing I could see as a potential insult was Jeancey saying "It simply isn't okay to delete another users personal images without their consent.". I suspect that you are referencing other conversations, seeing as Jeancey only commented twice in the discussion stated by Legoless. Have you attempted to contact Jeancey directly about your grievances? It is entirely possible that he was not meaning to offend you, like how you don't mean to offend people with what you say. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 14:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::Trying to assume good faith when good faith has been broken is a ridiculous concept, so no, I have no reason to believe Jeancey was not deliberately insulting me. Some editors simply can't stand the truth being told, and have repeatedly tried to stop discussion when they come under scrutiny (I'm looking at you Legoless, trying to hype up a situation to where telling the truth becomes a blockable offense). That sentence is entirely made-up, it is fine to delete user images without telling them, it has been done since before that administrator joined the site, by admins who have had far more experience with the rules and policies Jeancey has misquoted (deliberately or not). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 15:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::An action may be just as much an insult as a statement. Silencer may believe Jeancey insulted his integrity, even if that was not Jeancey's intention, based on Jeancey's [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=File:User-Resonance_Gamer-NelacarCognito.png&curid=185849&diff=1399822&oldid=1396766 edit summary] referencing the deletion policy. I believe Silencer proposed deletion according to the Wikipedia Deletion Policy, Reason 12: "files that are unused or obsolete", which I understand is used ''de facto'' when we do not have our own policy, which we do not on unused images. It should be noted that it was a ''proposed deletion'', emphasis on ''proposition'', and not a ''speed'' request. Anyone is within their right to object to and remove a prod, as policy states. Robin's statement sums this up the best: ''"Proposed deletions really don't have any particular rules governing them other than the fact that nobody has objected to the deletion. I think that makes the case for user images, especially: '''if the user doesn't come back to object to the proposed deletion of an unused image, the image can be deleted'''."''
::::Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist (one way or another), and I believe Silencer was just trying to point out that fact. What should be taken from this is the need to expand and/or revamp the deletion policy. Apologies to you Silencer if I have misinterpreted any of your comments in my attempt at summarising. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 16:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::And there we have it, after all the invented hype, someone else notices the thing I pointed out at the very start, "Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist". So by looking beyond my name someone else can see that I was in fact correct in pointing out that Jeancey was wrong. Such a pity that it took three talk pages and a visit to the admin board before another user was prepared to say it. I hope you continue to have the courage to state the truth in the future Enodoc. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:46, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
{{od}}I've barely been active for the last few months, and will remain so for the near future, so I'm not getting too involved in this, and I'm not going to say anything except this: Please be careful with how you word things, Silencer. Even a brief glance at that message revealed several snide comments, and I see several more in your responses here. You're playing a dangerous game here, and it's a game that nobody wins. You're a good editor. I know that. We ''all'' know that. You don't have to prove anything to us. We really don't like having to block you or give you warnings or whatever, because that means the policy is being broken, and that's precisely what we ''don't'' want. Even more so because we respect you. To be honest, the reason I got so upset in the big episode a few months ago was because it hurt me to see someone I respected acting so disrespectfully to someone else.
:Please be careful with how you word responses. In several of your conversations above (like [[User talk:The Silencer#Regarding Civil War Forts|this]], [[User talk:The Silencer#Weye|this]], and even [[User talk:The Silencer#Skyrim:Asta|this]]), you've shown you can be civil in dealing with other people. Please continue to do that. This isn't an instruction or order, it's a request from me to you as a fellow editor. I'm not going to make any further responses in this discussion; everything else I can say on the subject, I've already said. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 02:23, 28 October 2014 (GMT)

== Robin ==

I would like a proper and detailed explanation of this block. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:53, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

== Blocked (2) ==

{{Blocked|1=This account has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki. If you wish to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing Blocks|appeal the block]], you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)}}

Over the last several months, The Silencer has demonstrated repeatedly that he has difficulty being civil. This has been targetted at multiple users including Biffa, Legoless, Jeancey, and others. Offences range from snarky comments to accusations without proof to continued use of the term "lying" when, in fact, there has been nothing more than simple misunderstanding or miscommunication. The wiki is not benefitting from this drama, so I've put an end to it for the next six months. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:All my accusations have proof, I have yet to be asked to show that proof, rather I have been treated abhorrently by the administrators, including yourself, who would rather block me than see that proof. The claims you make against me are entirely stemmed from the first block I received that was knowingly based on lies (or so-called miscommunication). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:01, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::You were asked to show that proof during your last block. You showed none. Instead, you responded only with vague hand-waving and repeated assertions that you had proof. Proof involves links and quotations from those links, not repetitions of the phrase "I have proof". Even in the discussion about deleting user images, you repeated that you had proof of Jeancey's insulting comments, yet when it was asked for, your only response was to belittle the user who asked for it and still provide none.

::Has Jeancey made mistakes during all this? Sure. As I've said previously, we all do. Administrators are no more infallible than anyone else. Your response to the situation, however, was entirely uncalled for. Rather than trying to resolve it like an adult, you [[User talk:Jeancey#Image deletion|started with impolite]] and degenerated from there. "Jeancey is wrong" may be factual based on what he said, but there were better ways of putting it, like "Jeancey, can you clarify what you meant? I don't see that anywhere in our policies." When Dominus replied, you started with "Well, if you knew our policies...." Again, hardly a civil way to engage in conversation. Your responses after that in that thread alone were nothing short of rude and insulting.

::The thread above, where Legoless asked you to be civil, you again failed to be civil at all. Instead, you tried to turn the discussion to be about him or about the policy rather than dealing with your own civility issue. What's more, instead of acknowledging any impropriety of your own, you instead launched an interaction ban. I'm sorry, but no. The interaction problems here are consistently with you, nobody else. Until you can learn to deal with your civility issues yourself, without making it about anybody else, you're blocked. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:14, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::You asked me for proof after I was blocked with no intention of allowing me to clear my name, it wasn't worth my time explaining anything to you at that time. I provided the proof of Legoless indiscretions on the admin board which he admitted were true but not deliberate, but a lie is "an inaccurate or false statement" so the truth is a lie. Why is a fact uncivil, a fact is neutral, its perception is entirely that of the readers and cannot be attributed to the messenger, so 'Jeancey is wrong' is both factual and civil. Unlike your own unprovable claims about me, I can see that my response to Dominus might be taken that way. My responses after that are in direct reply to an admin who has just made up a policy to justify their actions, if I am to be taken up on incivility for those comments, then that admin should receive the same scrutiny over their false claims. If you need more proof ask for it, before you extend my block. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:36, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie 3lie]: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive". There was no intent, therefore repeatedly calling people liars is not only inappropriate, but also insulting. As I just said on the AN, if you feel you've been wronged here, by all means, I'm absolutely willing to reconsider my block. Clearly, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&curid=145160&diff=1400213&oldid=1400209 there are people] who feel my block may have been premature, but [[UESPWiki_talk:Etiquette#Condescending Language|just as clearly]], people expect this type of behaviour to be dealt with. Contrary to your belief, I have every intention of allowing you to present whatever proof you feel is relevant. If you want me to overturn my own block, though, you will have to do so on the grounds of how we can improve the situation in the future. Of course, you also have the option to appeal to other administrators or Dave if you feel I'm not being objective.

::::For whatever it's worth, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of a bad admin or a team of admins who just aren't seeing the problem—I've been there. I don't want to be one of those admins for you, but I also can't let incivility go completely unchallenged and unchecked. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:09, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie #3] here as well "an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood." You seem to have contradicted yourself. You say you are willing to listen to claims of being wronged here but also state that you won't overturn a block based on those reasons on those grounds. You also say on the admin board you say in regards appealing the block "but at least as far as I'm concerned, it will have to be on the grounds of "This has gotten out of hand. How can we fix it?" rather than "Here's why everyone else but me is wrong, lying, or covering things up."" I'm not entirely sure where I stand with you, as you seem to be ruling out the possibility of me appealing against it on the grounds that it was given, but appealing against it on grounds that it has nothing to do with? Feel free to clarify. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:30, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::::<nowiki>#</nowiki>1 at the link you give is how most people perceive the word "lie". That's undoubtedly why it's #1. I don't see my statements as contradictory. If you want me to overturn my own block, then it needs to involve a fix to the civility issue, regardless of whatever other issues there may be. However, only discussing everyone else's wrong-doing, without addressing your own, will not convince me to overturn my block. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:44, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

== Good to see you back! ==

Good to see you back and active again! —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 22:15, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

:Well, someone needs to clear out the maintenance categories, may as well be me. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:23, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

::Ditto. Nice to have you operational again!--[[User:Beezer1029|Beezer1029]] ([[User talk:Beezer1029|talk]]) 22:47, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

:::I'm glad to see you editing again, too! :)  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 23:19, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

::::Welcome back! :) [[User:Holomay|Holomay]] ([[User talk:Holomay|talk]]) 08:09, 29 April 2015 (GMT)

== Thanks ==

Gah! I'm forever forgetting to add categories to pages and images. Thanks for the fix. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:18, 2 May 2015 (GMT)

== Murkmire books ==

Hey, so the murkmire books aren't in game yet, they are data mined. There was a decision to keep them out of more until they are released, which is why they were only in the online namespace. There are a few datamined books we are keeping out of lore for that reason. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:29, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

:All I can find is this message from yourself on the overview page "whenever it gets moved to lore". Also the lore links were left requesting pages. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)
::it wasn't on these books, it happened on another set of datamined books iirc. In any case, I just wanted to let you know, probably should avoid moving any books in the future to lore unless they have a collection listed with a full collection page. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:38, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

:::For reference, the discussion on this is [[User talk:Jeancey#Datamining and Lore|here]] (also see [[User talk:IceFireWarden#Murkmire Lorebooks|here]]), and is based on the guideline of not including pre-release content in lorespace. Although I appreciate you may not have realized that it was only pre-release content, which is my fault because I forgot to mark it as such. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

== Great Houses membership ==

Hey Silencer! There is a [[Online talk:House Hlaalu|discussion]] on the Great Houses membership. I'd say that while [[Online:Miirist Redoran|Miirist Redoran]] very likely belongs to the House Redoran, judging by her location, I cannot surely say the same about [[Online:Mondran Redoran|Mondran Redoran]], for instance. What are your thoughts on this?  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 19:55, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

:The balance of probability came up favourably. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:23, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

== Creatures Categorization ==

Hey Silencer! This line: <code><nowiki>[[Category:Online-Creatures-Bear| Bear]]</nowiki></code> allows us to place general page [[Online:Bear]] separately from all the individual bears in the category, on top of the list to be specific. Why do you think it is best to get rid of it?  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 18:47, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

:Because it is not proper categorization for that page. Sorting like that is only for pages that relate to but are not exactly part of the category, such as Horses in the Horses category. The page is not about an individual horse, it is about all horses, whereas a page at Horse would not be sorted like that because you can encounter a 'horse' in the game, just like you can encounter a creature simply named 'bear'. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:52, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

:: That would be the case if ''Online:Bear'' contained info about generic bear creatures only, but it also has a list of unique bears. Take [[Online:Dog]] or [[Online:Guar]] pages, for instance, they also have a list of related quests. Since we do not separate ''Online:Dogs'' from ''Online:Dog'', and the category description says ''"This category lists all of the individual dogs"'', I would say it would be better if the page is sorted separately. Let me post link to this discussion to CP and see if somebody else has something to say about it.  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 20:35, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

::: If an animal can be found it does not get sorted to the top. If only named versions of an animal can be found then becomes a species page which would not properly belong in the category (and in which case the summary box would be removed. I can find a Bear, therefore the Bear properly belongs to that category, alongside all the unique named ones and the variants (eg Black Bear). Just because the pages are currently lacking in information does not mean we categorize them badly.
::: PS. If you want to drag this 'discussion' beyond mere clarification, feel free to start a CP discussion, I don't want people coming to my page for it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:00, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

== Descriptions ==

Yes, it can be transcluded, but ever since I believe Oblivion, but at the very least Skyrim we have been repeating them on the page. Often the lore ones are different from the game ones, and, it prevents issues due to caching. More than that, every single ESO book has (or should have) the description on the page. For that reason alone I am reverting to re-add the description because it makes no sense to have every book but one have the description on the page. Every book should have it. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 20:48, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

:'Often'? I have never observed one that is different so that's some claim, not to mention that allowing different descriptions is just begging for inconsistencies on the wiki. Preventing issues with caching is not an excuse, seeing as we don't attempt that anywhere else. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:57, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
::It happens quite a bit with books from previous games, as many are split into separate parts, or have had sections removed. The main argument is that to change one, you'd have to change hundreds, and having the description on the page doesn't really hurt anything. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

:::Split books are not the same as the full book so of course they can and likely will have different descriptions, identical books on the other hand have no reason (besides time eg now/then) to have different descriptions. The argument that one page is wrong so they should all be wrong is one of the worst excuses offered, if it means editing 500 pages to correct them I'm sure you'd be the first to do it to increase your edit count. I much preferred the time people found reasons to do productive things rather than found excuses not to. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:47, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
::::Let's take a step back here before this gets out of hand. I don't want this to become another instance of something that gets cited as a reason for another block, so let's please not be too accusatory in our responses. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

:::::Why don't you take a step back, your involvement is nether desired or warranted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:09, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

==Spelling==
Um, thanks for correcting my spelling... I didn't know if it was correct or not. But I see you have corrected it thank you. :) {{Uns2|00:57, 3 June 2015|99.194.128.55}}

:On Tribunal:Dark Brotherhood? Yes, I changed it back. It was an awkward sentence though so WoahBro edited it to clear up the meaning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

== Mjoll the lioness ==

I noticed you did an undo on my addition of a hunting bow as default equipment for Mjoll. Your reason was "not by the data". What does that mean? Mjoll clearly uses a hunting bow in the game. Can you explain why you removed that edit? [[User:Luke1138|Luke1138]] ([[User talk:Luke1138|talk]]) 05:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:She might be using a bow in your game, but by default, she doesn't own a bow at all. I've verified this in my own game, as well as in the Creation Kit. If she has one in your game, it's either a fluke (somehow she picked one up at some point?) or a mod has added it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::If I recall, don't several followers default to the Hunting Bow, despite it not being in their inventory? I'm sure I have had followers with empty inventories, but when a dragon attacks, they pull out that bow (Xbox). I understand the Giant's Club doesnt actually show in a followers inventory if they pick it up. Same goes for their default armor. Could the bow be an invisible item? --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 18:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:::You nailed it, Jimeee! When someone becomes a follower, they have a hunting bow added to their inventory. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I think it's part of a script, to add a hunting bow to a follower. Either way, it's not notewhorty because it's default for all followers. ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 19:36, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Ah, so I wasn't going crazy! Yeah, some mention is probably more appropriate for the [[Skyrim:Followers]] page. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 20:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::Dwarf: it's actually added directly to the alias in the DialogueFollower quest as part of their equipment, so no script is involved.

::::::Jimeee: Done. I'd already added it before catching up on this chain and finding the recommendation to add it. :) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

== Blocked (3) ==

{{blocked|1=This account has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki for one year for persistent abuse of other editors. [[UESPWiki:Etiquette#When_Conflict_Arises|Personal attacks]] (such as [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALegoless&diff=1455627&oldid=1455626 templating the regulars], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Legoless&diff=prev&oldid=1450908 sarcastic remarks], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn-pc-height_comparison_chart_by_Ziphoblat.jpg&diff=1455617&oldid=1455615 unfounded accusations], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki%3AOblivion_Houses_Redesign_Project&diff=1450909&oldid=1450203 inflammatory remarks], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online_talk%3APeople&diff=1452461&oldid=1452459 insults], and general [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThe_Silencer&diff=1447591&oldid=1447587 outbursts]) are grounds for an immediate block. No change in attitude has been shown since your previous block, and your contributions have become disruptive to the site. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)}}

== "Non Book"-template ==

Hey Silencer, is the "Non Book"-template a recommended way for providing notes on book pages? For example here - [[ON:Resolutes of Stendarr Note|Resolutes of Stendarr Note]]. I'll start using it then instead of making new paragraphs. There are several books with inconsistent names (or other information that I want to include on the page as a side note). [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 00:48, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

:Yes, it removes the notes from appearing to be part of the text. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:05, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

::Ok, ty! [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 00:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

:::Don't forget the dashes ---- to make a line to separate the note. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

== Empty Pages ==

Regarding [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Purge&curid=172379&diff=1530206&oldid=1521459 this edit] (and similar); is it not the case that a page remains to be considered "empty" if it has no content outside of a template? That is, I thought a page must have at least an opening sentence for it to be considered non-empty. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 16:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

:If it contains content it isn't empty. I would consider the skill descriptions to be content regardless of their placement in a template, and there are other templates to use if it is missing content, including the stub template. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

::Fair enough, thanks! I was of the opinion that anything in a template didn't count as content. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 21:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

== The "mistakenly added" book/crafting motif collections, a question ==

From [[ON:Dro-m'Athra Style (collection)|Dromothra Style]] page, "This collection has been mistakenly added to the library, the books are not yet available in the game." - Hasn't ZOS been doing that since Thieves Guild though (or even Orsinium?) It seems they are preparing several crafting motifs and plan ahead when these are pushed out. In which case I wonder whether it is a mistake or something deliberate, that the collections have placeholders like this? [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 10:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:I haven't been paying attention to thinks like that, but it would seem to be a mistake to reveal the content on the main game (not PTS) before release as it ruins the surprise. And though the other two sets Ebony and Ra Gada had specific chapters named, Dromothra wasn't even fully formed, and as you've pointed put, not even spelt correctly in the Library. If it is determined not to be a mistake about revealing the info, a message about its unavailability is a must to let people know they'll have to wait to complete it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

::I agree that a note should be there informing that these collections are not available yet :) But I doubt it's a mistake that they're adding these collections before actual release. (Dromothra was just example btw, misspelling is another issue, likely ZOS sloppiness) [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 11:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::In this user's humble opinion, appearance means availability. If the books are in the library, why not add the styles to the crafting stations, I'd like to think if they have the wherewithal and ability to suppress the crafting station (assuming its available for testing on the PTS) they can do it with the library. We should keep an eye out on the next patch to see if the new styles are added to the library before the DLC is available. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::: We haven't been very diligent in the past with updating the Eidetic Memory in the past so I have no idea how long they've been doing this, but I agree with having a collection page if the list is currently visible on live. We'll need it eventually anyway so no harm done. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 12:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::No-ones talking about removing the collection pages, seeing as I created them, what we're discussing is the notice that says they were 'mistakenly' added to the library. The question being if it was a mistake or not. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::: Ah. Certainly seems like a mistake to be adding lists for unavailable books to live, so I'd agree with the notice. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 12:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

{{od}} For me a mistake is something unintended, but well. We seem to agree about that having a note is appropriate, and that the collection pages are fine to have, so it's okay for me to have this wording. I partly asked because I wondered if ZOS had maybe admitted some mistake, which they sometimes do on PTS forums, etc. [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 17:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

== Want Some Cheap and Easy Edits? ==

I'm currently working on the ESL card upload, since we have to do that manually. A few new ones are popping up, and some with new designs. I'll try to call those ones out in the description, and I'd be fine if you wanted to swoop in and get the edit out of the way while I'm doing the file uploads. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 21:55, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

:I don't understand what you want me to do, what edits need made? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

::I'm uploading images for [[Legends:Legends|Legends]] cards. Some of the ones I am uploading are new cards, and some have new art. If you were to create the page for the new ones, you would save me the work of going back and doing the same, so it doesn't mess with the rhythm I have going right now. If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll get to it eventually. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 22:07, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

:::Right, new cards without pages, I can do that. I thought you were talking about descriptions like image descriptions so I was lost. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

== Sorry about that... ==

Looks like we both had the same idea at the same time, to start creating those categories... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 23:55, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

:No problem, I was poking my nose in to seem useful, thought I'd clear up some of the redlinks while there was attention on those pages. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

== Passive Skills ==

Great job with all the icon moves for the passive skills. I'd forgotten that that was even an issue, so didn't think to follow-up with the bot. Now I don't have to! :) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

:Those came from TRLs skill moves at the start of the month, not from hotbotties updates. Though there were two duplicate pages created, or rather one duplicate and one correctly named page created because the old name hadn't been moved. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

::Oh, okay. I know the bot altered or added some icon names as well, so I figured those moves were just from that. The one for Combustion was just out-of-date info in the bot. I couldn't fix it last night while the bot was busy, but I just did now. As for duplicates, if you mean Conditioning, Gift of Magnus, or Stealthy, I'm aware of those issues and am discussing them with Dave. If it was something else, can you point me to it, please? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

:::Keen Eye: Rune Stones/Runestones, I've marked it for a merge, and after a long search in the older edits I finally found the very recent Combustion overlap dealt with. Edit: And maybe if I'd read your whole comment properly I wouldn't have wasted 20 minutes. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

::::Ah, good catch! I double-checked, and it's been spelled as two words as far back as I could find, and all but one of our links used two words as well, so since you'd merged them already, I just clobbered the bot's version with the merged version and left a redirect (at least for now, so people can see what was done...that can probably be deleted in due time). – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

{{od}} I just did a dry re-run to see if I've fixed the issue with the overlapping racial skills, and as a result, I caught a number of other corrections you'd made after the bot run. Most of those are now incorporated into the bot job, so they shouldn't happen again. I'm not sure what's going on with [[Online:Shadow Barrier|Shadow Barrier]], though. I take it from your edit summary that the times in the game are all twice what the bot wanted them to be? (And on a side note, it looks like you made a number of corrections to the Active Skills bot run as well...I'll go over those later and see what I can do to avoid them in future runs.) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

:Those were influenced by the bonus I had, I don't know why Jeancey didn't revert that one. Unlike before bonuses now actively change the skills wording. If you mean the active skills numbers from the last patch, I wasn't aware of where the numbers were generated from, and an algebraic symbol seemed the best course to display a variable. I haven't really touched active skills as its quite hard to see all three wordings on console. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

::As for the active skills, I hadn't even looked at the nature of the changes, I just saw a bunch of edits in your history when I was blanking on Shadow Barrier's name and went to remind myself what I was looking for. :) If you didn't actually change any of the active skills because of something the bot did wrong, I won't worry about it then. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
:::Whoops. I missed one. I was in a little bit of a rush on the end. Sorry about that! [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 22:48, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

== Images ==

Thank you for categorizing all those images.

Sorry about that :( [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 02:45, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

:No bother, though I was putting it off for while given the number. Finally got round to it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Would you be opposed to me putting your name in to be autopatrolled? Even if you're not fully patrolling any more, I see no reason your edits should have to be manually checked off at this point. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 18:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

:I would object. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

== Miraak ==
Little dispute here; I didn't write Miraak wasn't a Nord, but his name isn't really Nordic, it's in the Dragon language, I don't see the problem with noting that. Similar to how Brand-Shei is noted to be a Dunmer with an Argonian name. Also, if your response is "He's a Nord", why not mix Hevnoraak in there without noting it as different? [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 01:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

:The name pages are for names given to NPCs or otherwise confirmed. Miraak is a Nord NPC, his dragon priest status is not the same as Hevnoraak's Dragon Priest NPC creature appearance. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer NPC but he was given an Argonian name by his adoptive parents, thus his 'otherwise confirmed' name is noted on the Argonian page but not the Dunmer page. If Miraak was treated the same his name should be moved to the dragon page and noted that he appeared as a Nord. However, there is no reason to do this as it is not a dragon name as the dragon priests typically only have one or two words not three incorporated. The use of another language for a name does not mean that the name itself is not stereotypically of that race. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:22, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

::There are plenty of examples where names rather than the character are noted to be different but still put on the page, even on the Argonian page with J'Ram-Dar, or Irgola(redguard). Yeah if you treated Miraak the same way he wouldn't even be there, but he doesn't fit on the Dragon page either. It doesn't warrant moving him, it warrants a footnote, even if two-word Dragon names are in common use for Nords. It can only help to categorize between the two, similar to how Argonian Cyrodilic names are seperated from the classic Jel ones. [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 13:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

:::The difference with J'Ram-Dar is that there is nothing to confirm that the name is of Khajiit origin, therefore it cannot be placed on the Khajiit page. The difference between Cyrodilic and Jel Argonian names is that they usually have both, or else just a Jel name. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the dragon priest names are not typical Nord names, considering that the priests conversed with the dragons its hard not to assume that Nords took names from the language of their rulers in the same way a lot of real-world names have their origins in foreign languages. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:40, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

::::I take your point, but it's still worth noting that it has a meaning in the Dragon tongue, even if you assume that there was no stratification between Dragon and Atmoran naming(which I actually find harder to believe as Dragon Priests were the middlemen between the Dragon overlords and the humans). Wouldn't you agree? [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 15:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

:::::Translation notes are on all the dragon priest pages. There really isn't the room on the name pages to list the origins of every name, even for just those we know of. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

::::::All right, well thanks for the explanations, I'll leave it. [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 17:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

== Concurrence Removal ==

I get removing the fonts, even though I find it unnecessarily bureaucratic, I can abide by it. But here I see you have [[Skyrim_talk:Imitation_Amnesty#Flawed premise|removed my comment]] as well. Is there something wrong with what I said, those two words? Why did you feel the need to silence what I said, especially when it’s simply an opinion on a Talk Page pertaining to a topic & not an actual Main Namespace change? I’m not vandalizing anything, just talking & asking questions & reporting the bugs I find for others. Are you a sysop here? [[User:Kalarus|Kalarus]] ([[User talk:Kalarus|talk]]) 22:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
:He moved your post down to a new topic because it would have been a necropost on the old topic otherwise. Your comment is still there :) [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 22:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

::I know he moved the Topic down, it was my bad for adding it at the top, but he still removed the comment on [[Skyrim_talk:Imitation_Amnesty#Flawed premise|another section of that page]]. See [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim_talk%3AImitation_Amnesty&diff=1574116&oldid=1574108 here], line 11 which became line 8. [[User:Kalarus|Kalarus]] ([[User talk:Kalarus|talk]]) 22:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

:::Your edit fell squarely into the realm of necroposting. Topics more than 3 months, but usually more than 6 months, are deemed to be closed by wiki standards, and should only be added/reopened if you are adding something missing, answering a serious question that has been left unanswered, or to address a misrepresentation in the discussion that could lead to issues if left alone. Simply agreeing with something does not add anything to the discussion, and thats before mentioning that talk pages are for possible improvements to the article. Discussing the rights and wrongs of a topic is for the forums. And no, I'm not a sysop, I just happen to know an awful lot about wiki-standards and am probably one of the least bureaucratic people you will encounter, considering my adopted wiki-motto. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

::::Ah, that makes sense. I totally get it now, I was just wanting for a solid reason for why my comment was removed. Is there a list of rules anywhere here? I’d like to look at them so that I don’t make such mistakes in the future. [[User:Kalarus|Kalarus]] ([[User talk:Kalarus|talk]]) 23:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

:::::[[Help:Contents]] contains basic editing information at the top and our standards on layout and so forth at the bottom. [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines]] has some basic standards and links to the most common guidelines, while [[:Category:Policies and Guidelines]] should contain all applicable pages. I thought we had a page on necroposting, but it seems we don't, the wikipedia page generally applies then, which has a standard of anything over 90 days old cannot be reopened (obviously we ignore that to some degree). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

== Rift aspens ==

I edited the description of a image of the Rift on it's Skyrim page, to say "The Rift's aspen forests" instead of "The Rift's birch forests" which you quickly reverted. I want to clarify that the reason I made the edit is that they are listed by Bethesda themselves as aspens inside the Creation Kit. TreeAspenForest01, TreeAspenForest02, TreeAspenForest03 etc etc. {{Uns2|04:38, 4 December 2016‎|65.33.226.240}}

:I didn't know that, I was going by appearance which to me seem more birch, but clearly they are meant to be aspen given the editor ids. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

Thank you for fixing my uploaded images. I am new to editing. I will try to remember to place future map images in the correct category. I have still not learned the proper coding messages to add text information, but I will get there. Again, thank you. [[User:Dmdbd1970]] 22:57, 7 December 2016

:No problem. You could also have uploaded the new Rihad image over the old one if it had been a png file. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

== Ribbons ==

Just FYI, while I was doing other stuff to the {{tl|Ribbon}} template, I noticed your attempt to right-align the images and added that functionality to the template (then promptly used it on the doc page). Just thought I'd mention it, since it affects the formatting of your user page (if only slightly). – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:07, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

:Not having looked at my page in a while, I think they were centered or at least meant to be. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

== April Fools ==

I did like your companion page, by the way. It was nice enough to convince me to make [[General:April Fools]] so that those past efforts can be found, at least. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

:After reading the 'news' a number of ideas on expanding the joke came to me so I threw together a quick page. There was talk of a page for them the last time we did one, but no action was taken and they dropped off the radar. There was another April Fools quite a while ago (as in 10 years or more), where a banned user was nominated for Admin, but it was a bad joke playing on a user's self-confessed issues and is probably best left in the back-end of the archives rather than added to the page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

== In case you were wondering ==

Just in case you're wondering why I deleted some of the user categories you prodded but not others, that was a total goof on my part. I'm not about to bring back the ones I accidentally deleted unless there's good reason, but I'll let the rest go through the normal Prod process as they should. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:49, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

== I can't use the sandbox... ==

In the sandbox that you advised me equally appears the same warning trying to do big edits that I received in my own user page (I can't do big edits until I did another 10 edits elsewhere...)--[[User:Tamrié|Tamrié]] ([[User talk:Tamrié|talk]]) 21:20, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

:I didn't realise how new your account was. There is an additional required to the basic account verification which is 4 days. The 10 edits should count in userspace as far as I remember, meaning you are well past that requirement. The "big edits" filter prevents editing, but if you make smaller ones it should at most only ask confirmation or warn you, but you can make the edit by submitting the edit anyway. If there's any other problems let me know. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:38, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[Daggerfall:Places]] ==

Hi The Silencer, thanks to the useful indications as to use always capital letters in the "articles names".

In regard to locations listed in the article, I think that [[Daggerfall:Places]] page must be similar to other games "places" pages (what wasn't the case in the previous text). A list of every distinct "type" of place, links to regions, every important location, specially the settlements or links to other (existing) articles of interest in the "places" category, so exactly the same that other games examples. The article is still a WIP but I don't pretend to "list every place" as you said, in fact not even a 5% of Daggerfall locations will be include in the final version. The 100% of the +4000 "towns" are indeed already included in the Daggerfall regions specific articles, but I only pretend to include quest related places or other interesting/unique places in the case of homes, temples and dungeons sections while only capitals, other major walled cities (that are only a tiny percentage of total settlements, maybe 100 cities) and only some other special relevance towns, in the settlements section, so again '''exactly the same that in other games examples''':

[[Skyrim:places]], list more than 300 specific places, [[Oblivion:Places]] a similar number. Morrowind despite it has by far more places than Oblivion or Skyrim (more than 600 places and +400 individual buildings more, so more than 900 interiors, and even more, distinct interiors, counting multi-level dungeons...) but "only" list in [[Morrowind: Places]] less than 100 different places (only settlements and some few other locations, so less than a 10% of Morrowind places are listed) and provide links to other specific articles. In my current [[Daggerfall:Places]] edition are listed only less than '''60''' specific places (and the regions links). Considering the fact that Daggerfall has many more unique, pre-fixed, designed and handcrafted places (dubious in the "hadcrafted" part) that all other TES main series games + Onine, Redguard, Battlespire, etc, all together, the listing of similar amount of places than Skyrim, Oblivion, or even more, is fully justified. But I repeat, I only already include less places than other games examples and in the final version... maybe a similar number to [[Skyrim:Places]] will be include in places article, not much more.

In regard to Iliac Bay size section, I have two objections:

1. Is not information about Daggerfall places, but map/game world size calculations, wich isn't present in any other ":Places" article. Why must we include that kind of information in this Daggerfall:Places article, when is not included in any other similar article?

2. And most importantly: Is fan-made info (very good, relevant and interesting one, but still fan-made). Isn't possible to arrive to that info by developers declarations, game data info, manuals or using some exploring or editing programs.

In contrast, the totally available demographic info (because is a "easy to count" feature, and because Bethesda offer us construction set/creation kit doing even easier to count that that number, it's at this moment categoryzed as "general" which is basically wrong categorization (direct game info! not fanbase speculation, but totally objective and easily affordable game info, info that even is possible to count playing the games!...). The reason is basically that we lack of a proper category for "Elder Scrolls" info that is very, very different from fan-made art, speculations, studies, development teams, mods, etc. General: is totum revolutum category, don't you think?

But anyways if I understand the uesp working, fan-made info isn't included in specific games articles isn't it?--[[User:Tamrié|Tamrié]] ([[User talk:Tamrié|talk]]) 22:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

:I understand that it is a work in progress, but I had some concerns about the direction it was going in. Under Towns-Other large cities-High Rock you have 21 links to the same place, namely Anticlere#Service Locations, and a less concerning 3 links to Abibon-Gora#Service Locations above it. That amount of links to one place, if duplicated would be less than helpful, despite each one having a different displayed name. The pages should be useful and familiar to a Daggerfall player, even if that means not duplicating the likes of Oblivion and Skyrim Places pages. It would be more prudent to compare Daggerfall to Online/ESO when structuring pages. ESO NPCs and Books are devoid of inhabitants, where in Oblivion and Skyrim they list every NPC and every book. The ESO place page duplicates the first section of Skyrim's, but does not attempt to list all places, just the zones which would be the regions in Daggerfall. You do not have to follow that exactly, but it would be a better comparison than Skyrim.
:The modspaces I talked about would be the exact right type of page for that information, but lacking them and lacking the support to create them, the information will have to stay in Daggerfall namespace. There are many "fan-made info" pages like this, including mods such as AndyFall that should not be in that namespace, but your page is technical information and more appropriate, if you compare it to Skyrim and it's mod pages [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]].
:The general demographics page puts together all of the games known demographics, but each game has its own page within its namespace, linked at the top of the demographics page. The general namespace is somewhat of a dumping zone for pages we don't quite know where else to put, but that page has two better locations, Daggerfall or Tes2Mod (when it is eventually created). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:16, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

::Hi,

::1. The Anticlere#Service Locations is a provisional solution because I don't know how to link directly to the specific city in the service location section in the mentioned region pages! In the regional pages (Anticlere, Dragontail Mountains, etc) you can check as every single settlement in these regions (the +3.000...) is listed with its shops, temples or guilds, if we could link directly to the specific city name position in the page (for example to Anticlere#Service Locations+"#Aldshire"? or some other code) all great stores or banks, guilds and temples hotspots in Daggerfall are referenced/linked without doing any new location page (I thought that adding some other 100 or more pages in other largest "service provider" locations similar to capitals pages could be useful for readers, with maps included... ) but at least the link to the services provided in regional pages could be a great step. Anyway wether or no we continue to have all these cities links in Daggerfall:Places or if we move all to "settlements" new page, I need some help anyways with the correct linking that must not to general "Service locations" sections but to the specific city position in these tables in every region article.

::2. My model never was Skyrim/Oblivion complete lists, but Morrowind:Places example.

::In the Online case, there are links to EVERY single location that exist, Do you knowed that? +3.500 "locations" (including buildings) are listed in different types, subtypes and sub-subtypes pages. In Morrowind model on the other hand, we have less than 100 locations linked in the main :Places page, but near all locations (not really, far less inclusive than Online, not single buildings pages, for example...) in different places types pages. ONline categorization is similar to Oblivion/Skyrim (include all) but as the places are many more the editors decide to do it with many sub-categories.

::We have these two possible solutions for Daggerfall:Places, the Morrowind model or the Online model, I will put here the numbers so you can compare the really terrible situation in Daggerfall pages and compare with Morrowind/Online:

::-Currently places listed in places category:

:::Morrowind: +600

:::Daggerfall 204

:::Online: 3775

::-Currently places "types" listed in places main page:

:::Morrowind: 12-18

:::Daggerfall: 9... mostly added by me and whitout page yet.

:::Online: +50 sub-categories

::-Currently specific locations listed in main :Places page:

:::Morrowind: Less than s 10% of places (specially settlements, because services and guilds) listed.

:::Online: No places listed in main :Places page, only types of locations, but ALL locations (+90% because is WIP, but near all) mentioned, linked, categorized or described in minor pages: near 4.000 places!

:::Daggerfall: About 0.4% of all locations listed. +60 places.

::On the other hand, in [[Daggerfall:Daggerfall (Region)|Daggerfall region]] page for example we have already 400 different settlements listed (ALL in that region) in a simple regional page. So it's not something "new".

::I prefer the Morrowind model for Daggerfall, so we could cite some important places (all the main quest related + 150-300 largest, most relevant or unique places, specially all the largest cities -for future adition of the maps!- 300 of 15.000... is not to much) and new subtypes categoriestoo with its own pages, but to include most important places only, not ''every single rock''... as indeed Online category does.

::What do you think?

::3. I will love to help in a TES2mod category, but dude, the Daggerfall places (only the 2-3% more relevant in my model, only the 8% of all towns!!) aren't simply "mod" or hacking material. Not at all. To include information of the marvelous tools that I currently use (Daggerfall Modelling or Daggerfall Imaging from Daggerfall Workshop, far superior to the old ''Daggerfall explorer'' used here in UESP to include all Daggerfall capitals maps... so we can improve a lot the maps), or to include more detailed information about the two biggest Daggerfall "rewrite" projects, and specially the enormous possibilities of new modding with the DaggerfallUnity version could be great, but the Daggerfall:Places need a deep rewrite and to include far more information that the current in the Daggerfall: category, not in "Tes2mod" because has nothing to do with modding but it's basic information that UESP wiki lacks (and only in Daggerfall: case!).--[[User:Tamrié|Tamrié]] ([[User talk:Tamrié|talk]]) 03:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

:::The real solution is to make redirects for each linked page, but if they point to the same place it is still not going to be a solution to listing them all on the same page if it can be avoided. I assumed you would be making all the necessary sub-pages to list all locations like Online does. Online numbers are indeed boosted by certain rocks, but every map-marker gets a page. As you are probably aware I lack Daggerfall experience and am now running out of specific advice, but I am glad to know you are aware of the different layouts and styles that are adapted for the necessities of each game. The Mod spaces are not just for mods, they also include technical information, but I wasn't suggesting moving the places page there, just the Dimensions page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

== Patrolled edits? ==

Hey, I noticed that you didn't seem to have your edits patrolled (I just had to patrol one of your edits on a user's talkspace). After (admittedly hasty) research, I discovered that you're listed neither as a userpatroller, patroller, nor autopatrolled user. Given how frequently you post on the site, is there a reason for this? I know that you were successfully supported as an autopatrolled user a while ago, but don't know if anything's happened since then. [[User:Gelza1|gelza1]][[User_talk:Gelza1|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Gelza1|Cont]] 22:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

:Some of the above atrocities might give you some insight into the situation. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:35, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

== Black soul gems ==

Responding to your edit. It may be obvious to an experienced player that you can't use quest items in another quest, but is UESP only
for experienced players? When I first played Oblivion, I got very frustrated on this quest wondering why my black soul gems
were not accepted. I think someone else might too. [[User:Vlad the Imperial|Vlad the Imperial]] ([[User talk:Vlad the Imperial|talk]]) 13:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

:It is not beyond any player to understand the concept of a quest item, ie, that item is only for one specific purpose, and that purpose is not an entirely unrelated quest that requires you leaving the middle of a quest, going past the person you are supposed to deliver the items to in order to leave. Unlike other wikis we trust in the intelligence of our readers and don't treat them like children. We also have a preference for only explaining what is possible, and only including impossibilities where something would be expected to be possible. Following this, you would not expect a quest item to work anywhere else, so the only inclusion of the appropriate page is that the soul gems can be used in enchanting, thus breaking the related quest. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

:: OK, well in that case it doesn't belong on the page for the Cheydenhal recommendation quest either. I'll make the change. [[User:Vlad the Imperial|Vlad the Imperial]] ([[User talk:Vlad the Imperial|talk]]) 15:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

== 367 Locations ==

Hi Silencer,

I edited the section on locations found in the 100% completion page, since it is not correct. If you look at the settlements list that it links to, there are only 30 settlements that can be visited that add to the location counter in-game. Also, there are only 7 inns that are not inside cities. Therefore the total location count should be 367. This has been confirmed by many people including twitch.tv/prclive who are doing a 100% completion speedrun of the game. {{Uns2|19:34, 24 July 2017|24.23.192.176}}

:My net had a complete breakdown, only getting back online now when I was about to post my reply 6 hours ago. Well after a lot of counting you are right. Oddly the increase to 369 that I see added 1 to the settlements and forts count (not the inns). On my part I missed the fact that Weynon Priory is excluded from the count. When the count was actually put on the page originally (in 2009) it started as 50 forts and 8 inns. This tallies with the archived discussion on that page which shows that there are 421 fast-travel markers possible, with 40 as the extra daedric gates, and 14 already marked (or otherwise pre-marked) which equals 367 possible locations in one playthrough. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

::Thank you for the response and double checking my count! The runners were really worried about the last 2 locations so we were all going through the wiki and we discovered that the numbers of places didn't match the lists that were linked. I should have been more clear when I made the first edit. Also, it seems like the runners didn't find any other inconsistencies with that page, so otherwise it is accurate! It's really cool to finally have a verification of many of those lists/statistics. {{uns|24.23.192.176|03:40, 25 July 2017‎}}

== Daggerfall leveling and skills link edit. ==

The link does not work on my mobile phone. The way the site parse is the link doesn't allow the page to load at all. I think a direct link would have been better as I just get a browser error that says that this site cannot be reached...

[[User:Chizmad|Chizmad]] ([[User talk:Chizmad|talk]]) 19:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

: I think the problem is that the site automatically adds the "m." And the wikipedia site doesnt like it... [[User:Chizmad|Chizmad]] ([[User talk:Chizmad|talk]]) 19:07, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

::The m is not added by our link, it comes from a check by the servers for the device asking for it, which means a link breaking must be a wikipedia issue. However, both links work fine for me, the normal one takes me to the normal page, the mobile link takes me to the mobile version. I don't get that last point, if the automatic addition of an m breaks the link, how does a manual addition, making both urls the same, make it work (which is still wikipedias problem as it is their servers adding it). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

== Ping ==

Advice on [[Tribunal:Assassin]] requested at [[User talk:Darklocq#Dark Brotherhood Assassins]]. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 19:07, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
:I've run into a roadblock, and its name is <samp>mt_save_data</samp>; deets at the thread on my page. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== Forsworn Conspiracy note ==

I added a note recently to The Forsworn Conspiracy article that you later removed, claiming that the information was redundant with both the main walkthrough portion and the "bugs" section. I disagree. The information, as far as I can tell, does not appear at all in the main walkthrough section, which merely states that you can resist arrest and that only going to jail will "advance" to the next quest. The point of the note was to make it clear what happens when you choose to resist arrest in the shrine and, most importantly, that it differs substantially from the usual consequences (new guards do not normally spawn simply as a result of resisting arrest). Additionally, the article currently does not make it even remotely clear that you *cannot* clear the crime you have been framed for using the standard methods that normally apply to removing bounties, which IMO is a highly notable feature of this quest that should be made clear on the quest page. Please reconsider your deletion of the note.

[[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 07:16, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

:The note you added is far too long to simply be clarification on what happens if you don't choose to go to jail, not that it is simply about that. One concession I'll make is that the article could state more forcibly that you should at that point accept going to jail, as anything else will likely screw up Markarth for the rest of your game, and I'll do that now. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:48, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

::I don't know where you get the idea that game mechanics specific to a quest that are quite clearly NOT bugs should be completely absent from that quest's article. Resisting arrest is a perfectly valid choice that can be made in this quest, and the No One Escapes Cidnha Mine quest is completely optional. Unless you dispute the accuracy of my information, I cannot see how you can argue that the article is better off without it. Additionally, submitting to arrest later on always allows you to start No One Escapes Cidnha Mine, as the note made clear. The "screwing up Markarth" you describe is simply the consequence of the guards always trying to arrest you until you submit, which is a choice the player may wish to make. I will re-add the information to the main article if you wish, but I insist that it belongs in the article somewhere. [[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 15:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

:::Yes, choosing to resist arrest is a "valid" option, but when it can create bugs not just with the next "optional" quest, but with many other Markarth quests, it is not an option that should be encouraged or even treated like it is "valid". The option should be documented, but discouraged so that people can avoid such bad bugs. With such bad bugs we have a responsibility to our readers to tell them not just what they can do, but also what they should do. This is why I added the part that you may not be able to come back later and start the next quest, which you inexplicably removed, despite it being a known and serious complication/bug of choosing to resist arrest, which you appear to think will cause no problems whatsoever. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:34, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

::::The intended behavior of the game is that you CAN come back and start the next quest after resisting arrest. If in certain circumstances you cannot, that is a bug, which should of course be documented. As for taking sides about what readers "should" do when presented with an in-game binary choice between two dialogue options, I strongly disagree. There are many ways to play the game, and going on a guard-slaughtering rampage instead of being a quest-completionist is certainly one of them. I will happily concede that a strong warning with "see bugs" is appropriate, so long as the information pertaining to resisting arrest remains in the article somewhere. [[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 16:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I was going to add that warning myself, but looking at the article again, it appears that not a single one of the bugs documented in the "bugs" section relates to the consequences of choosing to resist arrest at the shrine. As I have not experienced any bugs with resisting arrest myself (which I have done in each of my four playthroughs with no problems), I cannot add the warning in good faith. Perhaps you can add to the article the bugs you have experienced when taking this path, if you wish to reinstate the warning? [[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 16:56, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

== Books Question ==

Hi there. Quick question - should all books be set out like the ones [[Online:A Memory Book, Part 1|here]]? I.e the conten on lore page and added from there? [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

:Yes, every book with a lore version should have the text on the lore page and transcluded to the game page. There are a number of templates to help with linking and the display of alternative text (where there is more than one game version). There are very few exceptions and they mainly concern those which have so much alternative text that they can almost be considered a different book, but they sometimes get a disambiguated lore page and are transcluded from there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:42, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
::Transcluded. That was the word my pre-coffee brain was searching for! But ok. Because theres quite a few not-transcluded. I can help fix them as I find them, if they should be transcluded. (It would also explain why links on books are supposed to be lore-links. Anyways... thank you![[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 22:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Every book that has a lore version should be, but not every book should have a lore version. Most of books I see that don't have a lore version are from the newest additions, because they should not have one created until they are released officially. The basis for having a lore version is to either appear in multiple games, or "contain lore information". An easy way to determine its "value" is if it will be used as a source on another lore page, though that isn't always the case, nor is it always the case that they contain useful information. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Guardian Trinity ==

Hi Silencer.

Only possible reason to keep the page is for the purposes of linking to it relevantly for Patch notes. I.e. they regularly refer to the Guardian Trinity in a few different patch notes, and as there are three, one cannot properly be linked to correctly? (Unsure if this justifies it or not. Just letting you know why it was created in first place). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 15:23, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

:The patch notes don't need direct links in all cases. If a fix is in place for all three then we just need to note that on the three pages. The patch notes are so unwieldy and so full of misspellings I don't think its all that useful to be trying to link everything anyway. The notes also have less relevance given the nature of the game (i.e. can't play the game without it installed). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 15:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

== Orcs ==

Oooh. Ok. Didnt realise. Did Orsimer out of habit. Now I know, I wont do it again. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 00:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

== Broken links ==

The speedy deletion request you added to Morrowind:2920, Frostfall messed up a few links transcluded from lore pages. They are the navigation links at the bottom of [[Morrowind:2920, Hearth Fire|Hearth Fire]] and [[Morrowind:2920, Sun's Dusk|Sun's Dusk]], as well as the [[Morrowind:2920, The Last Year of the First Era|compilation page]]. I fixed several others within the Morrowind namespace and made sure the uppercase F was used on the display text.

I'm not sure if you were planning on going back and changing the transclusion code, so I left them alone. You could either undo the speedy deletion request or have more Nst templates. It's probably easier to keep the redirect since Frostfall with a lowercase f is the common spelling. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 07:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:It is easier, but pointless given the range of tools we have available to avoid having so many redirects. The only pages that should exist in a namespace are those that appear in the game, and as Frostfall doesn't appear (to the best of my knowledge) it shouldn't exist. I tried to check all the ones I nominated last night, but I obviously missed those links. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Duplicate pages ==

Yeah, I've come across a few of those. For instance - is it necessary to have a page for [[ON:Alanwe|Alanwe]] AND [[ON:Alanwe's Soul|her soul]]? [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 01:13, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:I was concerned with the set pages in that part, this is slightly different. That's the problem with bots though, her soul registers as a separate NPC and so got a page. Usually we have redirects for all names displayed in the game, but some NPC entries in the data are not NPCs (eg Welkynd Stone), and are made by mistake. Delete or redirect, you'd need to know when and how that "name" appears. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:33, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

== Trail ==

People that appear in-game linking to mentioned-only characters (such as hirelings) is correct? [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 20:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

:People lists have always been categorized under people, it is the category that is wrong. We've never had a game where we have lots of pages for characters that don't appear, so this hasn't been a problem before. You can see that the same [[:Category:Oblivion-People|Oblivion]] and [[:Category:Skyrim-People|Skyrim]] categories are used for the list pages, not non-appearing characters. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:02, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::Okay :) makes sense. I only change it because I saw it linking somewhere non-sensical. (As it currently is). (And yes, ESO has a few differences.) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:09, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
:::The lists are in effect sub pages of the people page, so it isn't strange to link them there. In the other games all named NPCs are listed on the people page, but some limit needs applied, which might be listing/linking all the subpages instead of displaying them. The mentioned only characters create a bit of a limbo, as the Characters category is used for pages about the players character. A bulky category under "Non-appearing NPCs/People" might have to be used. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:36, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::::Ive made it a [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Mentioned-Only_Characters|Community Discussion]].[[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== Thanks! ==

Thanks for fixing all the Desolate Mine disambigs. I had a feeling I'd forgotten something! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

:Well they can only be done after a move anyway. About half of the pages linking there already pointed to the "right" place already. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Transclusions ==

I just copied them mostly as they were. They can probably be a ''little'' neater. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:No problem, but they should definitely be using the template. We can convert them over after you move them, it does take quite some time to do that. I'll lay off the "prompts" in the edit summaries though. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
::No, no. You're right. Only reason I didn't was I suspected that there was missing characters, and was planning to add them in shortly. (Can still do so, so that's okay) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 12:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

== Apostrophe Italics ==

I saw that you reverted my change to the italicization of ''The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion'' with an apostrophe s on it. However, the apostrophe s should not be italicized because the title of the game does not have it. If the game were called "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion's", then we would put italics on the whole thing.

From a quick search, the top three articles argue in favor of this usage. I'll just link the top one from [https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/108370/possessives-of-a-title-in-italics Stack Exchange]. It's the entire reason I create [[Template:'|this template]], and Wikipedia has the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:' same one]. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 23:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

:I can't say anything other than that style is disgusting, honestly seeing those examples sent a shiver down my spine. Excluding the 's only draws peoples attention to it, as it immediately did mine when I opened the page and looked at what you had changed, totally negating the purpose of the stylistic formatting (italicising) on the text where it is implemented. Honestly I never realised this is how wikipedia do it as I rarely use it for reading articles, but we've always done things a little different in regards titles of works, but I don't like it and will argue against using it at is just stands out like a drawing pin to the eye. Totally off-topic, would you/could you create a template for a non-breaking space, it would be so helpful with a few templates like Nst when transcluding. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I edited the template to add a small gap between the word and apostrophe as Wikipedia does. Maybe this will address your concern? I'm kind of surprised it's that big of a deal. The italics indicate what the title should be, so we italicize everything but the apostrophe s. I've seen several attempts to do this before but without the new template, the apostrophe is also italicized and it ends up looking odd. I must say I think italicizing the whole thing looks worse. Tell me what you think of it now with the gap. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 00:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I read the wikipedia page and it is almost a necessity to add that small gap so the italicised letters don't spill into the apostrophe, a large part of why it ends up looking so hard on the eye. It does look better with the gap, but not enough to convince me that it's better than including the 's in order the make the whole thing more readable. Just to clarify, I thought you had simply misplaced the italics when inserting the template, I didn't know this was your intention. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::::So I take it you dislike the style, but you would not be completely against me reverting the page to how I intended? There are so few instances of italicized possessives on the wiki, which is why we never had the template. I think it's for the best if we choose by far the most common italicization method for these few rather than some custom style. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 01:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Question: UOP ==

In reference to [[Tes4Mod:Unofficial Oblivion Patch|Unofficial Oblivion Patch]], do you think it would be alright if I updated the current lists of changes? I obviously couldn't even see that the list of the lists was there in the first place, but I'm wondering if doing it incrementally would be alright. The concern being certain portions being out of date, and some not being, and some in between those two states. There is also a lot of weird and inconsistent formatting on all of them which is... irksome. Anyway, let me know when you can. [[User:Syvel|Syvel]] ([[User talk:Syvel|talk]]) 00:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

:While there would be nothing inherently wrong with doing that, it will be a fruitless and near impossible task to try and keep those pages up-to-date. If they were in the style of the official patches (just a copy of the fix log listed under its version) then it would be feasible, but the current format doesn't support that, nor is it at all useful for tracing which version of the patch actually makes the fix. Another problem would be categorization of the bugs, which is negated by having the log written as is, and just putting the bugs on the affected/relevant Oblivion pages.
:The pages were created when the patch was supposedly finished, which makes a certain amount of sense, but now they are active again the pages are more of an archive and an anachronism. The link above them is to the fix log posted by the the UOP people, which should be more than enough (it is for Skyrim). So no, as long as the patches are active, and the pages stay in the same format, I see no benefit to updating them with more unwieldy information, not to mention the time it would take to go through the last 9? years of updates and attempt to split them by type. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

== Ryain Direnni ==

I'm trying to find out if (s)he's the Ryan Direnni mentioned in "Once" :)
:Also, sorry for not posting the right image - I didn't find it on full text search. I'm still feeling my way around the place. ~ manavortex 12:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

== Pledges ==

Oops. Nice catch! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

:It was strange, I typed "pledge" into the search box and it displayed "Online:Pledges", so I just speedied the one you created. I went to double-check the Online:Pledges page and it apparently didn't exist, requiring a rapid copy/paste to cover the absence. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

== Bjorn cave's name ==

Hi, sorry, I should have added this section BEFORE editing again the [[Bloodmoon:Bjorn|Bjorn]]'s page. I'm sorry. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that many Bloodmoon's pages in this Wiki have notes about the fact that Solstheim's names come from north European languages (Norwegian, Danish, etc...). Bjorn is just another one. So, I don't see why that shouldn't be relevant while the others are. --[[User:Giant Lizard|Giant Lizard]] ([[User talk:Giant Lizard|talk]]) 22:24, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

:Relevance has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it translates to something in some random language, relevance is determined by what the translation is and the article. The best examples are some of the Companions in Skyrim, their names translate to various things related to wolves, which is relevant because of their lycanthropy. If the cave in question was occupied by bears instead of hags you would have your relevancy, but there is none, so it does not belong. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:10, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

::Some random language? Most of the names in Solstheim come from north european languages, it's not just "random", it's been a development choice. The bear is one of the animals you can find on Solstheim and one of the main symbols for vikings/nords, it seems pretty relevant, no? Besides, why Bjorn's name is not relevant and [[Bloodmoon:Rimhull|Rimhull]], [[Bloodmoon:Solvjord|Solvjord]], [[Bloodmoon:Fjell|Fjell]], [[Bloodmoon:Frykte|Frykte]] and [[Bloodmoon:Isild River|Isild River]]'s names are? They seem all the same to me: north european words about things related to the cold, used for names. --[[User:Giant Lizard|Giant Lizard]] ([[User talk:Giant Lizard|talk]]) 22:33, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

:::Random is correct, because there is no link between the location and its translation. Etymologies are a contentious addition to any page, they need to show a reason to belong, having a translation is not enough. You seem to be completely missing the point that the relevancy is to the article it is placed on, not the generalization of the the entire addon that Bloodmoon/Solstheim/Nords are Vikings/Scandinavians.
:::Rimhull is an ice cave and translates as frost hole, I am sure even you can see how that is more relevant a translation than between a cave inhabited by hags and the word bear. Isild is at least partially relevant with its ice translation. Frykte has a valid yet subjective argument given that it translates as the idea Fear, for a cave full of dead and undead. Solvjord and Fjell appear to fail the relevancy test, so unless someone can make the arguments for those two, they should be removed.
:::If you want to read more, [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_30#Etymology_removal|this is]] the most relevant discussion, as it determined the current policy towards etymologies, which is retro-active and enforced. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

::::Ok, thank you for your answer. I still disagree, because I think they are all interesting and relevant facts, but it's just my opinion and I know it's useless. Thank you anyway for your explanation. --[[User:Giant Lizard|Giant Lizard]] ([[User talk:Giant Lizard|talk]]) 00:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

== Warhaft ==

Apologies if I am formatting this incorrectly, I'm somewhat new here.
I believe MK's comments are valid, and not "meaningless", this is the only hint Warhaft would have made an appearance in TES4, and it isn't one of his out-there ramblings either. [http://michaelkirkbride.tumblr.com/post/128602974278/excerpt-from-a-tesv-skyrim-design-document-with He has access to the design documents] and he's been at least in limited contact with the guys at BGS.

Thanks, have a good afternoon.
--[[User:Username-72|Username-72]] ([[User talk:Username-72|talk]]) 15:26, 04 March 2018 (UTC)

:MK might retain a unique position in the world of the Elder Scrolls, but he has no special status when it comes to statements that he cannot prove. I don't see anything in those documents that prove his statement or even hint at its truthfulness. Just because he says something does not mean it is or was true, except for those games he was actually involved with as an employee, when he would have had access to sensitive material. Given all that, something being considered to be a part of a game when the game was in development is hardly noteworthy, especially for a game series' 9th game with so much lore to choose from. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, (I only added the tumblr link to show he had "some" access to the design docs and not to say "here's the proof") I do agree that it's a bit silly to argue for something so minor. I'm only asking because I'm curious about how I should approach this in the future, I mean if this is a minor tid-bit and not worth mentioning if there is not direct proof, then what would you say constitutes mentioning. Should we really disregard anything MK or another ex-dev says for "this" kind of thing (undeveloped content in this case), I don't know, maybe we could add some additional text that says it was written by an ex-developer and shouldn't be taken at face-value. I'm not an MK "fanboy" or something of the like either, I just think this is interesting information. --[[User:Username-72|Username-72]] ([[User talk:Username-72|talk]]) 15:26, 04 March 2018 (UTC)

:::Anything by MK is treated the same as any other [[UESPWiki:Lore|Out-of-Game]] source, in that it should really only be used to expand on an existing topic. "Interesting" "facts" found only in OOG are not notable here. Comments by ex-developers can be notable, where their comments can be shown to have truth, and they don't actually need to prove their own statements if someone else or even the game data can do it for them (in the case of the game proving their statement that would be "expanding on an existing topic"). Its impossible to say what is and what isn't notable, it can only really be judged on a case-by-case basis. If you're ever unsure if something is notable it can be better to ask on the talk page first, that way something has a better chance of sticking when/if it is added to the page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

== "Normal animation behaviour" ==

I just saw you reverting me edit from [[Skyrim:Northwind Summit]]. I added them there because I never encountered them before and I did neither read inside the dragon article nor anywhere else of this bug.
I do understand that it is out of place, but could you at least leave a reference like "Dragons are also affected by the <nowiki>[[Link-to-the-bug|behaviour bug]]</nowiki>"
--[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 02:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:The third note (in the notes section) on the Dragon page is about this. It is not a bug because it is deliberately scripted behaviour, and as it is not unique to any locations or affects the location itself, it doesn't get mentioned on those pages. There isn't anything about this that makes it more notable than any of the listed bugs or issues that affect dragons, and it should be obvious that any issues with dragons would be mentioned on the dragon page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:57, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:: This note does not contain the information I posted. ---[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 21:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::Please, of course it doesn't contain the information you posted because it is a better written version of it that actually addresses the issue and its causes. The issue is extremely well known to those who have played Skyrim since it first came out, just because it is the first time you have noticed it does not make it special or different. Dragons that are killed when not on the ground will continue to fly around/sit on things until the animation kicks in for them to crash land. This can take quite a long time especially if you continue to attack it while it is on top of an object. Just like any other NPC or creature, dragons can be interrupted during their attacks. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:45, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::: Please read what I wrote once again. Even if my words are not the "best written version", I think I expressed clearly that the dragon got stuck '''before''' it was killed. Even if this is "well known", it might not be "well known" to everyone and hence should imho be mentioned in either article clearly. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 14:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

== Reverting random changes ==

Please don't be ridiculous and revert everything. [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Joining_the_Stormcloaks&diff=1745456&oldid=1648735 The change] was part of my understanding of the [[UESPWiki:Skyrim Quest Redesign Project|Skyrim Quest Redesign Project]]. As far as I understand it says quite clearly that these kind of information belongs into the Notes section, as you can already see in [[Skyrim:Joining the Legion|Joining the Legion]].

Continuous reverting changes without first contacting a person is first of all rude and second of all more destructive then constructive. Please take a look at the first line of [[UESPWiki:Getting_Started|Getting_Started]] and tell me that you also ''always welcome new contributors who are interested in helping to improve the site''.

--[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 21:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:[[Wikipedia:WP:BRD|Bold, revert, discuss]] is a common method of editing a wiki, so Silencer wasn't out of line. That said, I think that's an important piece of information, and I think it's not a bad idea to repeat it in the Notes section. If it's your first time through the quest, it ''can'' be rather jarring to find out you suddenly failed some other quest, and making it easy to find would helpful. As it is, it's kind of buried in the rest of the article. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

::If this is about Joining the Legion and Joining the Stormcloaks, while it's ostensibly logical, it's definitely worthy of being pointed out in the notes, and probably extracted from the walkthrough itself since it has no bearing on the active quest. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::First of all, don't mislabel things to try and get people into trouble. My revert was not random, nor do I revert everything. It is neither rude nor destructive to revert before discussion, and your "offense" at my actions tells me everything I need to know about the type of editor you will be. The edit summary was quite clear why I reverted your edit, the information was already included in it so you were duplicating something because you clearly can not or did not read the article to see it, nor did you bother to check the edit summary to find out if a reason had been left for the revert because you fail to mention it at all in your reply. While the information is "important", it is not important enough to warrant highlighting given it is not the last point at which you can join either side.
:::PS: Joining the Legion is hardly the best example for why the note should remain, given that it does not include the information in the article. If you really want to make a lasting contribution without me ''randomly'' reverting it for no good reason, maybe you should try to bring the Stormcloak version up to the standard of the Legion page, rather than just duplicating the article in the notes section. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

::::I think Enodoc's suggestion and reasoning are correct, so I've gone ahead and moved the text down to a note.

::::Also, can the two of you watch your tone, please. There's no need for hostility over a few edits that are easily done or undone. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:05, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

:::::Don't tell me to watch my tone when all I did was defend myself against accusations that were not true or accurate. If EoD did not want to have those accusations ripped apart piece-by-piece with no mercy then they should not have been made in such a reckless manner. If EoD cared to have a sensible discussion then my talk page shows that I am more than open to it, if I had been approached in such a way. It doesn't help when senior editors give misleading information about the placement of information, though I ignored it in my reply while also explaining why it isn't even that important a note (to have it mentioned twice). Not only that, but it should be entirely obvious that joining one side would fail the option to join the other, it is only because it is an actual quest that it gets mentioned. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

== System Requirements ==

Good idea turning System Requirements into a redirect! I hadn't thought of that as an option. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 16:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
:It's not the first time someone proposed it for deletion (see its talk page), but at that time it wasn't on any other page so the page stayed as it was. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

== Nst/Lore Link Edit ==

Thanks for {{Pl|Lore:2920, Hearth Fire (v9)|diff=1747177&oldid=1747175|this edit}}. Right now, the bot's only picking up Lore Links with embedded Nsts, but I'll do Nsts with embedded Lore Links after. If you notice any others, though, feel free to edit them before the bot and I get there. The more you do, the fewer I have to worry about, and today, I think that's probably a good thing, considering the mess I made of those edits! :-/ – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:59, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

:You may have surmised from my edit summary that I was trying to fix the link the bot made into an Online one back to a Skyrim one, the other just caught my eye. The bot would only have changed it where it was anyway, when it should have been earlier at the first instance of her name. I also wanted to test if the link method would work when the lore link was originally inside the Nst. There are some links on that page that use the ifnamespace magic word, but I couldn't see any easy way to make them use Lore Link. There's no chance of me doing more without knowing where they are, unless you want to run the bot to dump them in a sandbox. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

::Yeah, I think the SR/ON issue was entirely my fault. The bot's doing a lot more of the heavy lifting now, so there shouldn't be any more mistakes like that. As you point out, the bot certainly wouldn't have spotted that there was an earlier possibility for the link, though. The Lore Link inside Nst will probably only apply to a few. Once I'm done this, I'll get a list to decide if I want to handle those on my own or let the bot do it. Given the range of possibilities there, I suspect I may be doing those on full manual once I have the list. I can't provide you a list right now without interrupting the bot, and there's probably no point in me doing so afterwards, because at that point, it'll really just be one or the other of us doing the same work. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:23, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

:::A bit late, but I finally clued in that I was altering display values in some cases. That should no longer happen once I resume updating. Thank you for being more on the ball than I am today! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:38, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

:::And just to follow up on the Nst/Lore Link combo, I searched the Nst template calls and found plenty of Lore Links as part of other text, but only about two or three were actually convertible to plain Lore Links. I took care of them. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 08:05, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

== Lies By FioFioFio ==

I refuse to allow lies about me go visibly unresponded to. FioFioFio made some false allegations about me in [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FioFioFio&diff=prev&oldid=1803814 this] post on his talk page. My response calling him out on his false accusations and absolutely baseless assertions was removed and the page locked from editing. [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FioFioFio&diff=prev&oldid=1803816 This] is my response that is apparently so offensive it requires an admin step in and call it an "edit war" (even though no part of the "discussion" came anywhere close to that policy). Clearly telling a Patroller to actually watch recent changes so they can do their job is just too much for people to handle. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:42, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

:You posted to '''her''' talk page after being asked to stop. That's simply in violation of good etiquette. While it may not constitute an edit war in the traditional sense, it is one in the sense that you were asked to stop posting and didn't. Toxic posts like these are not helpful. Take a breath. Go find something else to do for a bit, and come back when you can approach this issue in a more calm and constructive manner. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

::Either "she" takes back her baseless accusations or I get to respond to them. You don't say "stop talking to me" and throw insults in with it and expect not to get a response. Having an admin basically take "her" side by allowing those claims to stand without contention is just as insulting. Why don't you have a go at "her" for making those claims and insults instead of me for trying to defend myself, or should I not expect any less considering she is a patroller, and I am, as I always have been, me. I don't intend to resume this issue unless Fio makes more baseless accusations. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

:::I didn't take anyone's side (see "[https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version The Wrong Version]"), I simply paused the conversation entirely for 6 hours to give both of you time to calm down. She can't post to her own talk page either, given that it's fully protected. Also, don't assume that nobody's spoken with her. The tone of her responses was mentioned on Discord, which you may not have seen, but they happened nevertheless. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

== Lore Links ==

Oh, awesome! That does indeed make things a lot less complicated. (things then point where they should) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 23:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

== Guard Dialogue ==

Hey, Silencer!

Regarding this [[http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Guard_Dialogue&diff=prev&oldid=1815584]] edit, my extremely rusty wiki skills failed to allow me to check whether or not it was correct. What method did you use to decide it was correct before? --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 19:58, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

:Mostly just gameplay. I never bother with pickpocket until I need the extra pockets perk, but that line is commonly spouted by the guards cause I'm always sneaking about. The definitive answer can't be found on the cs, but it should be discernible on the CK. Because of that I can really only say that pickpocket at level 30 is ''not'' the trigger. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

::Gah! I had forgotten how complex the CK is. Trying to figure out how to dig through it to verify the dialogue trigger is more than I'm able to do quickly. Thanks for the reply. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 23:12, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

:::I took the coward's way and used "setav" to test it. Looks like it's Pickpocket, and not Sneak, that triggers this dialogue. I reverted back to the earlier version. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 11:36, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

::::Just to confirm, it is indeed Pickpocket, according to the CK. @Xyzzy: Easiest way to get to it in the CK is to use the text search to find "I know your kind", then double-click on the line that pops up. In the window that opens, the correct line is highlighted (though it's easy to miss, being light-gray on white...dunno if that follows the Windows colour scheme, though). Double-click on the line, and the conditions are listed. First one is Pickpocket >= 30. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:28, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

:::::Well, that was ridiculously easy. Thanks, RH! --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 04:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

== Template stuff, from a while back ==

Wondered if you'd thought any more about what you said [[User_talk:Darklocq#I was thinking|here]] at "I was thiking ...". I've been off-site for a while, but haven't forgotten or abandoned this stuff. Got sucked into ''Oblivion'', then some Blockchain thing, then some Linux work, then Wikipedia, cycling back around to TES a bit; I have a mod I wanted to finish and release on Nexus, and it joggled me to check my talk here and look for open stuff. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 00:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

:I mostly just have ideas for templates and tweaks, but let others do the coding as I wouldn't have a clue how to adapt or write one. If we look at [[SR:Bandit]] and any of the redirects for different named bandits such as Bandit Thug, all those categories are manually added to the page. If we could make a template it would make making and editing those pages much simpler instead of writing out all 9 race categories, 9 race-male categories, 6 (on that page) race-female categories, they could be auto-generated the same way the Non-relevant NPC template does. There are 39 categories on the Bandit Thug redirect, only one of which would not be generated by the template as I envisage it, and even that one could as I don't think there are any that don't come under "Redirects to Broader Subjects". [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:31, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

== L:DB ==

So, on what basis are you claiming that [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore%3ADark_Brotherhood&diff=1745912&oldid=1745908 this material] is "unsubstantiated"? It's all directly from ''Oblivion'', and you've restored a bunch of stuff that now conflicts with what the game actually says. In particular, a problem here is that various in-game books are being treated as accurate, when it's an point of the gameplay that they're dubious, and the game provides contrary evidence as you play it. Maybe I'm simply not integrating the material properly. I mostly work on walkthrough information and spend little time in the Lore namespace, so it's not clear what standards are applying there. I do note that this namespace seems to cite stuff from that Imperial LIbrary site which as a lot of apocryphal material that devs wrote which was never integrated into the game, and thus is less reliable than the in-game data. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 03:00, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
:PS: I previously addressed this in some detail at the Community Portal, though it was in mid-thread on the lore-sourcing overhaul topic. [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Night_Mother|Here's]] a direct anchor-link to the relevant material. The most important bit is that the idea that Severa Magia is a "local" Night Mother (leading to the original research that there must be more of them operating simultaneously, which directly contradicts all in-game and other official and quasi-official information about the DB) is found only in one place: in the player character's own voice in the Journal, at a point during which a) the PC has no knowledge of the DB other than what very little (s)he has been told by someone from the Morag Tong, and b) hasn't even run into any of the DB yet, much less gotten any information from any of them first-hand. It is hardly the only time that the player journal entries record an assumption in the player's head only to have it not turn out true later. Every quest that involves a betrayal/trick, for example, has this feature. The player character is not omniscient and is an unreliable source when confronted with better ones. Same goes for in-game works of fiction and quasi-fiction the intent of which is that they taken with a grain of salt, such as the alleged and possibly forged "interview" with an early Night Mother who claims to have founded the DB, but which conflicts with other in-game materials about the DB's origin and the nature of the first NM. We can't cherry-pick sources, but have to take them as a totality and work out where they are in conflict with each other and what those conflicts mean, given the context of each source (or not-really-source like PC's own in-game assumptions). — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 11:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

::You can't contradict something using sources that have absolutely no mention of the thing you are contradicting. There is absolutely nothing anywhere that directly contradicts the situation in the Morrowind game as being wrong. [Edit] While there is nothing that directly contradicts it, we do know it is "wrong" in the sense that she isn't ''the'' Night Mother. If you take this to the talk page of the lore article for the Dark Brotherhood and can provide some other cases where the "player voice" is shown to be unreliable (I don't know Morrowind well enough to know any), and it is accepted there that the source is unreliable, it can be excluded from the lore page. However it cannot be removed from Morrowind pages as that game information exists in its own "bubble" and will always be correct within that bubble. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:02, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

== Whoa, slow your roll there! ==

Do not just delete useful content without a discussion.

You deleted EVERYTHING about getting around the PSVR Cidhna mine bug...but the delete/reinstall is a definite fix, and the bit about the Orc guard IS the vanilla game, there's NO mod ability on PSVR (a platform you apparently know 0 about), I just made a simple typo for god's sake...it's an Orc woman talking to you, not an Orc guard. A simple edit can fix that, not abolishing all the useful information.

As for Braith, yes, the icon is only during a quest, and it can happen to any NPC...so where in the wiki should the information go, that a person you need for a quest may be locked away? Because it's freaking confusing for new players that they're wandering and wandering and can't figure-out why a needed NPC isn't where they're supposed to be.

Got any explanation before I add it all back in?
[[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 18:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the bit about locked-up NPCs belongs in [[Skyrim:Bugs]] --[[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 19:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, don't blame others for your mistakes, and don't get hostile when you can use nice words to explain how your error led to this. The wording suggested to me that the Orc was one of the three generic guards you submit to (there are no non-men (Nord, Imperial, Breton, Imperial) generic guards anywhere in Skyrim), especially the part where you had to identify her by her race [edit:] when the person you are apparently referring to is named. What she looks like doesn't matter either. Legoless has identified this mystery woman as Urzoga, and killing her is known to break the quest by stopping you from being able to escape the prison, so suggesting killing her as a solution is a terrible idea and only encourages further bugs down the line.
:For Braith, first of all, you should identify which house she was in, that can help others actually see if there is a specific reason or cause for her to be there in the first place. The suspicion here, seeing as it hasn't been encountered with her before, is that it is due to her following you into a house due to another well-known bug. There is no reason for her to be in any house other than her own otherwise. The information is not useful anywhere if she could be anywhere, but would be useful on the quest page if this is in fact a real replicatable bug. The bug as understood is already listed on the glitches page, as the sixth main bullet point under NPC dialogue. It is one of those bugs that is so common that you cannot play a game and not encounter it at some point.
:Finally, you can't confirm your own bugs, which is defined as bugs you add to the page that have had no prior confirmation anywhere else on the wiki that you can point to as the reason you are adding the confirmation. Just because someone somewhere else on the internet reported it doesn't make it confirmed here. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:34, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

::The automated anti-spam system means I'm going to have to break my reply into multiple edits.
::If you'd like to treat new editors badly, make assumptions, and clumsily stomp all over stuff that you know nothing about, don't be surprised when they dislike it. You should stop trying to silence people, and learn some silence yourself. And just what in there was a nasty word, in your expert opinion?
::If you have knowledge, which you clearly didn't in this situation, you can delete or improve something, but if you know nothing about it...and you didn't...then educate yourself before stomping all over it.
::Killing the Orc has apparently worked (I haven't tried it), and it's the only work-around to try for PSVR people who purchased the game digitally. They are unable to install an un-patched version, since they don't have an old game disk. [[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 20:48, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
::>For Braith, first of all, you should identify which house she was in
::Perhaps I will figure that out. Regardless, I will document bugs to whatever level of specificity I feel like getting into. If others want to investigate a bug report, or ask questions, then they can contribute to the bug documentation if they feel like.
::>it is due to her following you into a house due to another well-known bug.
::Of course I know that bug. While she did end up in a house I had been in, I had not initiated any conversation with her, nor had I started the quest yet, and I didn't hear any conversation from her while in there. It's possible she had been talking at me while I was outside, and I hadn't noticed, and her words finished outside, so I heard nothing from her inside. Although I'm nearly certain I went in late, when Braith should not have been on the streets.
::Reply continued in next edit, to avoid triggering the anti-spam filter [[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 20:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
::I know no one was in the initial rooms of the house as I began exploring. I only recall eventually seeing the appropriate occupants inside (mother & child). But perhaps Braith teleported deep into the house, and I mistook Braith for being the appropriate child.
::Even if that bug is why she was inside...and it might or might not be...the bug is insufficiently documented. No new player is going to magically figure out that "follow in" might equal "stuck, locked-in, can't get out, can't complete quest started hours later". Perhaps that page needs another category about "Missing/stuck NPCs", so people understand how to further an affected quest.
::>The information is not useful anywhere if she could be anywhere
::The information is critical, if she's not on the street, and never in her own house, then it's critical to know she could be locked away somewhere else (and she was), and that the quest icon can help you find her (and it can), and that you are going to have to break the NPC out. It wasn't until Google revealed about NPCs getting locked-in that I figured-out I had to break in to a stranger's house to let her out. [[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 20:54, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
::killing her is known to break the quest by stopping you from being able to escape the prison, so suggesting killing her as a solution is a terrible idea and only encourages further bugs down the line.
::Again, PSVR is a different build, different bugs. Perhaps some of the Unofficial Patch, which fixes the Urzoga bug, is built in. What I heard so far is that killing her works, and that it's the only solution for digital PSVR purchasers. It's a terrible idea to say that killing her is a terrible idea, when you have no idea. I don't plan to test it myself, but I'm keeping an eye out for further reports about how well it works.
::And "Orc guard" WAS a very appropriate way to refer to Urzoga. She IS an Orc guard. A mercenary paid to be a guard. --[[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 17:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

:::I apologize for your inability to read my posts, I will try harder. I never said you used nasty words, I said hostile. You are the one who came charging at me for daring to do exactly what you did, edit a page. I only ever respond in the same manner someone talks to me. Had you been calm and explained where I was wrong instead of screaming at me, I would have explained why I did what I did in the same manner. You also asked me for some advice, which you should never ask unless you can at least accept constructive criticism. I read what you wrote, and because you wrote it badly any subsequent edits due to that incorrect wording are entirely your responsibility. You didn't read what I wrote, and while I didn't say it in the edit summary, I did say above ''generic'' Orc guards. Everything you've written about Urzoga is irrelevant to that fact. PSVR Skyrim is not an entirely new build, it uses code from vanilla Skyrim, therefore bugs in Skyrim have a very good chance of appearing in the game. A very good way to check this fact is to select a bug that will always happen (such as Mirmulnir's absent voice, or any of the relevant bugs in Blood on the Ice). Of course some things are different, but they did not rewrite the entire game, and they 100% did not include a single line of code or any bug fixes from the USKP. Any bugs fixed by an official patch or included in another release that are also fixed by the USKP are entirely coincidental. My wording (terrible idea) in the talk pages might be a little over the top, but it is irresponsible to advocate a solution without mentioning the already known "potential" consequences of that "solution". I never said it was inappropriate to describe Urzoga, I only mentioned that using race to identify a person would lead someone to conclude that they didn't have a name you could use instead, which would eliminate any confusion (and why do you continue to identify her by her race and not her name?). In that case telling people to check what the guard looked like before reloading was again irrelevant, as Urzoga will only ever have one look and one race, and reloading depending on that factor is utterly pointless and confusing as a factor.
:::Adding common bugs to pages happens quite a lot, and if you knew about the "other" bug you should have attempted to differentiate the two. Adding a bug that appears exactly the same as the other bug can only lead someone to conclude that you are talking about the other bug. If she can be "anywhere", then a note saying "if you can't find her, she could be anywhere" is not going to be helpful on any level, that is why you need to be specific. Talk all you want about insufficient coverage, all I said was that it was and where it was listed. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]]

== World Eater's Eyrie ==

Nice pruning. Every time I see a notes section I see it like a weed sprouting up in a garden, something to kill mercilessly. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 21:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

:Merciless death is too good for it. Potentially endless lists like that are usually pointless and end up being more confusing than helpful, its not as if the two quests are all that long anyway or have much loot unless you take absolutely everything. At least the other endless list has a proper reason for being there (powerful staff, unique mask). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:47, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

== Inquiry about Oblivion Houses Redesign Project ==

On the Oblivion Houses Redesign [[UESPWiki:Oblivion_Houses_Redesign_Project|Project]] both of the project leaders names are stricken through, yours included. The other's user page says simply: Retired. What do the strike-outs mean? Is the project still active? Is it in need of a leader? Who does the checking? Who removes the rewrite notice? It would seem that there are still 202 houses yet to be done and not much progress since 2015, or maybe I'm missing something. I just don't know, so any information would be appreciated.

Thanks, [[User:Kalevala|Kalevala]] ([[User talk:Kalevala|talk]]) 16:24, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

:The other leader is indeed retired. My name was stricken through during the time of the "issues" you can see above, when I was unable to edit, and I haven't felt inclined to be as helpful to other people since. I am still here though, and continue to monitor things as I've always done. The rewrite notice disappears once the parameters are both filled in. The project is more in need of active writers than someone to do the final check at this time. If you want to take a leadership role in the project, I'm not sure of any procedure besides an active leader adding someone, so if you have some examples of pages you have written I will have a look and then decide. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:12, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

::Well you've been very helpful indeed. My worst fear was that the project had been declared extinct, and that further effort on it would be a waste of time. I wrote the table of Residents, the Notes, and the text for all but the very first part (describing its location and names of cells) of [[Oblivion:Summitmist Manor|Summitmist Manor.]] I also rewrote much of the text for [[Oblivion:Heinrich Oaken-Hull's House|the Heinrich Oaken-Hull House]] which had combined two bookcases into one downstairs and omitted a chest upstairs. My biggest problem in doing these was determining the extent of detail. There seems to be no rubric offered on the project page for the degree of detail. As to my leadership, I would prefer just to write descriptions and when I feel a page is ready, submit it here. I am not very good at corralling volunteers or assuaging the egos of those whose work may require vigorous editing. [[User:Kalevala|Kalevala]] ([[User talk:Kalevala|talk]]) 22:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

:::No project will die. Existing incomplete projects that have no active leaders can be taken over. The level of detail depends on the location's size, and most house pages would not suffer by including everything. However, that isn't necessary, you can generalize the pure clutter like cutlery. What might be deemed interesting or useful changes per game, eg, in Skyrim food items are useful for cooking, but in Oblivion they are mostly just for eating. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:23, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

== Aethelweald ==

Hi Silencer,

I just wanted to say that Aethelweald is indeed a Redguard last name, it's just that there's no way to directly source it, as far as I know. In Oblivion, Jaren's son, [[Oblivion:Lord Kelvyn|Lord Kelvyn]] is a Redguard, and their relationship is referenced in [[Oblivion:Lord Kelvyn's Will|this]], but it only says the last name in the [[Oblivion:Knightfall|Knightfall]] book which doesn't reference the race. If you can, could you put it back up. Thank you. --[[User:Vincentius1|Vincentius1]] ([[User talk:Vincentius1|talk]]) 19:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

:What makes you think that the two Jaren's are the same, I see no link beyond both stories involving a Jaren and a Garridan. However, these are completely different circumstances. Jaren Aethelweald serves Garridan Stalrous, his lord, who dies while Jaren is still in his service. Lord Jaren refers to Garridan as his friend. Lords don't refer to other Lords as their master, nor are they under their service. They might follow them, but they are not bound to them except by choice. I see the [[Lore:Garridan Stalrous|Garridan Stalrous]] lore page assumes that they are the same, so I'd like to take this discussion there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

== Fame page ==

I don´t know if this is the right place to address the Fame page I edited, but it seems like I was wrong. I double added the Arena quest, not the miscellaneous quests, which erroneously led me to 204 instead of 198 {{Uns2|12:05, 28 November 2018|C0rTeZ48}}
:There's no need to address it if it has been corrected. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

== Mazoga ==

We've had consistent reports of Mazoga arriving at Rockmilk on Turdas and Undertow on Fredas. Test it for yourself and you will see that this is what happens. I spent quite awhile trying to figure out why it wasn't working, and then had the insight that the day was wrong. No, she's not travelling to these areas after 16 hours are up. She will walk out from White Stallion to Rockmilk on Middas at 2pm, arrive at Rockmilk and return to White Stallion at 6am and sleep until 2pm. On Turdas at 2pm she will leave White Stallion heading North to return to Rockmilk. Then she returns to the White Stallion Lodge at 6am and then sleeps. On Fredas, at 2pm, she will leave White Stallion heaiding South to Undertow, arriving there at about 3:30 PM.

Please test it before reverting. I did and that's how I discovered this error. [[User:BenKenobi|BenKenobi]] ([[User talk:BenKenobi|talk]]) 02:30, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

== Necroposts on talk namespace ==

A wiki isn't a forum and "topics" are not listed chronologically anywhere except in Recent changes, which are by definition limited. Is it really that problematic for you for a new paragraph to be added to a Talk page? --[[Special:Contributions/173.180.86.252|173.180.86.252]] 05:55, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

:It's our wiki's policy to remove responses to posts old enough that the participants are unlikely to ever see the response (see [[Project:Necropost]]). The exception to this is when a post provides new information to a bug or long-standing question, or it provides information that should be included on the page. Also, topics on talk pages are chronological by date of first posting, though updates after that are, of course, not sorted. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

::{{ec}}A wiki isn't capable of time travel and topics are listed chronologically. This wiki has a much laxer attitude than wikipedia to old topics; anything there is closed after 3 months. Your post was 6 days short of 6 years later, plus it was full of inaccuracies, unfounded speculation, and simply off-topic. None of the original 3 participants has been since October 2013, with the two IPs not making any other contribution beyond that day, so none of them is going to see your reply. The problem with necropostic is that allowing one allows another, spreading a "conversation" over many years, something which neither helps the article in question, or allows others to move on to other issues. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

== Definition of Favor ==

If the increase in disposition is not the defining factor, what makes a Favor a Favor? --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:44, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

:Most of them have underlying code, however, that isn't always available to see in the cs. The easiest ones to spot are the ones with editor ids, such as [[Skyrim:Favor158|Favor158]], but some of them are not, like [[Skyrim:Favor252|Favor252]]. Erik the Slayer has coding attached which you can see in the cs. I'm not sure what the defining factor is (possibly along the lines of enabling Thaneship), as it was [[User:Morrolan|Morrolan]] who did the work on this 6 years ago, but I do know that disposition increases are not it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:25, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

::The Thaneship counter for [[SR:Making Friends and Influencing People|Making Friends and Influencing People]] is actually what I'm trying to get a proper list of, as what we currently have on the '''Thane of…''' pages is inconsistent and at least partly incorrect. That is therefore what I was basing this change on – for example, I see nothing in the Erik the Slayer code which is relevant to the Thaneship counter, which is why I don't think it counts as a Favor. If it doesn't affect the counter, and isn't a prerequisite quest for Thaneship, there needs to be something else which makes it a Favor, otherwise it can't be one. Supply and Demand and the Helm of Winterhold quest also don't appear to affect the respective counters, so are not useful for the list I want to create, but I can see why they could be considered Favors under the Thaneship definition since they are prerequisites even without affecting the counter. Dragon's Breath Mead on the other hand does affect the counter for Haafingar, so I don't see why it wouldn't count as a Favor. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 19:19, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

:::Morrolan agrees that the Thaneship counter was the primary condition for counting something as a Favor when that page was written. Since the Thaneship counter is directly defined by disposition (except in Riften), those edits to Erik the Slayer and Dragon's Breath Mead that were based on disposition appear to be valid. Unless you can think of another reason which invalidates them, I shall therefore redo those changes. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:22, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

::::There's a claim on the Erik talk page that Mralki's disposition is increased. I've looked and there is a {{CSList|game=sr|formid=000b2440|list}} of quests with a Favors "filter", which is quite a bit smaller than the list on the page. The bigger problem with using Thaneship is that there are so many quests out there that increase disposition, many of them indirectly (eg adding you to a favourable faction). Unbound, for example, can give you 3 disposition increases, so you need a second defining factor to narrow it down. I think I was maybe a bit wrong in what I thought. If you can narrow down what actually makes a favor a favor, then make any changes you need to. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:38, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::So unsurprisingly it all appears to be very inconsistent. The FavorsNode in CSList doesn't match the Favor\ filter in the CK, and neither of those directly match the ones that are listed as Favors in the Prima Guide. However the ones that overlap between all of them are the ones that have "Favor" in the quest ID. Given that there appears to be nothing obvious in the CK which explains why the rest of the quests under the Favor\ filter are there while other similar Miscellaneous Objectives aren't, I think we are going to have to come up with the final distinction ourselves. Either we completely gut the [[SR:Favors|Favors]] down to only the radiant objectives with Favor in the ID, or we firm up the definition we have to ensure that it's a useful list for [[SR:Making Friends and Influencing People|Making Friends and Influencing People]]. Since the latter is probably more useful and definitely less work, that's what I will go for - meaning the definition will be something like "Favors are [[Skyrim:Miscellaneous Quests|Miscellaneous Objectives]] for citizens of Skyrim which can increase their [[Skyrim:Disposition|Disposition]] towards you, thereby progressing any objective to [[Skyrim:Making Friends and Influencing People|assist the people of a hold]] as part of the quest to become a [[Skyrim:Thane|Thane]] of that hold." --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 18:35, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

== Restore stamina effect and power attacks ==

In article [[Skyrim:Restore_Stamina]] you reversed my deletion on "endless power attacks" with the insignificant 1 pt / second restore stamina effect. I'm pretty sure I'm right because I tried it and the claim is false. {{Uns2|12:49, 19 July 2019|95.174.66.188}}

:It's not a claim, its a tested and verified mechanic. Stamina can go below zero, which is why you only need 1 point of stamina to trigger the effect, with the rest of the cost being "owed". This is, however, overridden by the effect of a restore stamina meal which takes you back to zero and adds one point to your stamina, instead of the usual 5 second delay before stamina starts to restore itself. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:24, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

::I tried it and you're right. I'm an idiot and I'm so sorry for wasting your time. {{uns2|10:11, 29 July 2019 |95.174.66.188}}

== Behaviour ==

Okay, let me spell this out for you in plain English: stop being such a dick! Your behaviour here on the site has been a consistent issue, and it's not something the staff here will put up with for much longer. In short, shape up or we'll ship you out. Is that clear enough? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:18, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

:Excuse me? What exactly is wrong with asking for people to be accurate? My behaviour has never been an issue, only my inability to stay quiet in the face of injustice. If the admins cannot accept being questioned when they are inaccurate in their words or deeds, then that is something they will have fix, which is not achieved by banning the people who question them. You are the one who escalated a perfectly succinct response into a major incident, you are the one assuming huge levels of aggression where none exists. My only thought was to encourage a user to be more accurate, something that will benefit us and them in the future, which has now been blown up to such a degree that you may have scared them off from the site. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:52, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

::If you had stopped at politely asking for accuracy, there wouldn't have been an issue. Telling someone to "put some thought into comparing the actual lines spoken before making any more proposals" isn't asking for accuracy, it's being condescending and rude. As for your behaviour never being an issue, you've been blocked four times in the past by three different people, each time for "intimidating behaviour/harassment". Staff regularly field complaints about your aggressive, if not abusive, behaviour on-wiki. Given what other staff have said in response to this incident, I think it's fair to say that it's only because of your track record of helpful content edits and maintenance that you weren't banned some time ago. So, I suggest you look a little more closely at that behaviour if you think it's never been an issue. We have no qualms about being questioned, or called on inappropriate actions. What we do have qualms with is a user who goes around insulting and berating other users. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:37, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

:::I see, so this has nothing to do with what just transpired, its just an excuse to drag up the past again. The reasons given for my bans in the log are not an accurate portrayal of what occurred. Your count of four blocks isn't accurate, one of the four listings in the log is just changing the settings on the previous one to be more restrictive. You cannot hold any complaint against a person if you haven't taken any action to let the person know that there have been complaints, in order for them to know that they need to change anything (the reason there is an understanding that a user gets 1 "free" edit after a message has been posted on their user page before it can be taken further). It has been over a year since an admin has said anything on this page about behaviour, so to say there are regular complaints about me without going into any detail is just slander as I have no knowledge of them. I have only ever tried to be helpful on this wiki, I have not once deliberately intimidated or harassed another user, I have never tried to stop a person contributing positively to the wiki, and I have never hidden from being held accountable for my actions. There is no rule that says I have to be nice to people, only respectful, and there is nothing to say I have to care about other people's feelings, which is entirely different from being rude. Unless the bar for being rude has descended to absolute zero, then asking nicely (yes, you forgot to quote the Please from the above sentence) for someone to do something that will benefit them is still acceptable. Please remember to assume good faith when reading my words, I don't wish to be banned again. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:48, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

::::I have genuinely valued your contributions to the site for as long as I can remember. I have enjoyed seeing your edits, and I intended to contact you about putting in an RfA, before the first incident that resulted in you receiving a warning. Unfortunately for some years now, there have been conflicts between you and other users. Many users have cited their interactions with you as a reason to avoid the wiki. I believe you when you say you have never done this deliberately, but I have spoken with enough users about this, privately or otherwise, to know it has happened numerous times.
::::I am ending my preexisting neutrality in an attempt to reach a resolution that is beneficial for everyone. However I feel the existing bad blood needs to be addressed and resolved, with the intention of ending the conflict. I want you to be an editor of this site, I'd honestly like for you to be a patroller again someday, and I certainly don't want to see you banned. So in good faith, I am offering to review this situation at length, explore our etiquette policies in-depth, and resolve any and all lingering issues. If you'd like to try this approach to the problem, please just let me know, and we'll work together to achieve a fair and positive resolution. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:10, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

:::::Unless all involved (and active) admins are prepared to apologise for their incorrect behaviour towards me, and remove all bans and warnings from my history, I have no desire to involve myself in resolving their dislike of me, especially when previous attempts at have simply led back to me being warned/banned. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:56, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

{{od}} The apology required here is not from the site staff. As you yourself have pointed out, you have had several warnings and bans from several different people over the years. It's not because we "dislike" you. At some point in all of this, these warnings and bans should have led you to reflect on your own behaviour, yet you consistently reject the idea that you could be doing anything wrong. From your statements, you seem to believe that it's everyone else that has a problem, and that your own behaviour is somehow above reproach. I'm sorry, but that's not the case. You consistently say something to the effect that nobody told you you were doing anything wrong, so it shouldn't count against you, yet each incident on your talk page has been the direct result of a specific issue. It's not the admins' job to teach you how social interaction works or to post to your talk page for every single wrongdoing; it's your job to realize when several people are telling you the exact same thing—that you're being rude or abrasive—and figure out how you can improve your own interactions with people. We don't warn or ban people just because we don't like them. We warn or ban them when they're doing something wrong. Look at your own behaviour before you go casting aspersions at everyone else. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:36, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

:Please read my comments properly before trying to vilify me. I said you needed to be ''prepared'' to apologise, i.e. prepared to admit you were wrong. I did not say you or anyone else was ''required'' to make an apology before I talked to AKB, the sentence doesn't even require an apology if you are proven to be wrong. I have never said I am above reproach, and I did not say that I have '''never''' been told I was in the wrong. You made the claim that "Staff regularly field complaints" in your response to calling me a "dick", and I pointed out that it has been over a year since an admin posted about my behaviour. If that claim is based on those posts from over a year ago then they are neither regular, or recent enough for to you to tell me to "stop being such a dick" in response to your own perception of one comment I made. If you want me to be prepared to admit I was wrong, then you need to be prepared too, that is how an honest discussion works. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:29, 13 November 2019 (GMT)

== Sigar bug ==

Hey, I was a little confused by [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Sigar&diff=2058362&oldid=2058360 this edit] of yours - just to inform you, it's not already there, the bug listed is about the opposite problem. Regards, --[[User:Ethruvisil|Ethruvisil]] ([[User talk:Ethruvisil|talk]]) 19:53, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

User talk:The Silencer

2019-11-12T18:56:28Z

The Silencer: /* Behaviour */ reply

{{ {{SUBJECTSPACE}}:{{BASEPAGENAME}}/DTR}}
{{notice|<center>I speak the truth, if you don't like it that's your problem.</center>}}

{{Archive Table
|Archive 2012 1|2012/1|March to April
|Archive 2012 2|2012/2|May to December
|Archive 2013 1|2013/1|January to June
|Archive 2013 2|2013/2|July to December
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{| class="wikitable"
|{{Userbox|purple|yellow|[[File:Gold Star.png|45x45px]]|I have seven [[User:The Silencer/Awards#Stars|stars]] :)}}
|{{Userbox|black|tan|[[File:Choco_chip_cookie.png|45x45px]]|I have two [[User:The Silencer/Awards#Cookies|items of nourishment]]:)}}
|}{{TOCright}}
{{NewLeft}}

== Spell IDs ==

Regarding Mysticism Spells page - I saw you reverted my revision regarding the wrong ID of the spell. What led me to believe the names listed on the page are actually IDs is that for almost all spells, Name == ID holds true.
Do you think it would be a good idea to add the ID in braces for spells that have an ID != name? (or use an asterisk, you get the idea) [[User:Scrawl|Scrawl]] ([[User talk:Scrawl|talk]]) 00:54, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

:It may be, certainly Skyrim and Oblivion have the ids listed. The problem might be that the vast majority of them (like most ids in Morrowind) are simply the name in lowercase. Maybe its best asked on the talk page of the Spells page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:06, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

::Actually IDs in morrowind are not case sensitive, so you could say the vast majority of spells have an ID equal to the name.[[User:Scrawl|Scrawl]] ([[User talk:Scrawl|talk]]) 21:36, 5 January 2014 (GMT)

== SMPS ==

Hey there Silencer, hope you are well! :)

I have real life things keeping me busy here for the next week. If you are able, could you throw up a thing or two on the SMPs (Facebook, Twitter - do you have G+ access?) in my absence? It would be much appreciated by our legions of fans! (They love us, they really love us!) If you can, please feel free! And if not, that's okay, too. Thanks in advance and drop me an email if you need anything! -- [[User:Avron the S'wit|Avron the S'wit]] ([[User talk:Avron the S'wit|talk]]) 18:44, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

:Sure, I'll feed their addiction. Just need some ideas. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:13, 8 January 2014 (GMT)

== OBHRP ==

Since [[User:Helenaannevalentine|Helenaannevalentine]] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Helenaannevalentine&oldid=1228159 retired] in August there has been no Project Leader (not active at any rate) for the project, since you're down as Project Advisor do you want to step up of offer it around, i'm not particularly interested but after some [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Beezer1029&oldid=1274257 confusion] I thought it best to find someone to run the project. I plan on contributing (images and wiki-work) but i'm not brilliant at writing articles, but i'll volunteer if for some reason you don't want it (or anyone else does, since I was going to offer it up on the project's talk page). --[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 16:31, 29 January 2014 (GMT)

:I suppose I could, place pages are my specialty, and there isn't really anyone else there as a leader. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:23, 4 February 2014 (GMT)

== Character Templates ==

I stand corrected on the edit for [[Shivering:Brithaur (person)]]; but something occasionally weird is going on with the template parsing on this wiki - at least in Chrome. Ref/Base IDs get prefixed with unparsed template code. In the future I'll ignore it - but someone should probably investigate. My apologies for posting this on your talk page - as I realize this is probably better to post on the forums; however - the site refuses to send me the activation email. [[User:Digital Utopia|Digital Utopia]] ([[User talk:Digital Utopia|talk]]) 18:30, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
:To me that sounds like an internal caching problem that [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Purge|purging]] should cure. Hard to be sure with the problem gone, though. --[[User:Alfwyn|Alfwyn]] ([[User talk:Alfwyn|talk]]) 18:41, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
::Just to note: I had this problem earlier with mobile Chrome, purging the page didn't fix it, but it seems sporadic. Desktop Chrome appears (at first glance) unaffected. Though I see no difference in the edit shown and those IDs appear fine, desktop and mobile. --[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 19:04, 3 February 2014 (GMT)
:::Sporadic seems to be accurate. Clearing the cache will allow the server/wiki software another go at parsing/generating the page - but that doesn't do anything to fix the root cause. It seems doubtful that it's browser dependent, as it's not the browser's job to parse the wiki markup. So if wiki markup is "leaking" into the (HTML) page source, then somewhere server-side, there's an occasional hiccup.[[User:Digital Utopia|Digital Utopia]] ([[User talk:Digital Utopia|talk]]) 01:21, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
::::I found the problem. An update from just before Christmas never got pushed to the mobile servers, so anyone accessing those would see the wiki code. It's been fixed now. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:22, 5 February 2014 (GMT)
:::::Currently seeing this issue on desktop [http://i.imgur.com/mr4etq3.png Example]. Did some investigating - and found something curious. Clearing cache didn't do anything on Chrome - so I tried it out on Firefox, and it displayed fine. '''Until''' I logged in that is. When I logged in, I got the same result as I'm currently seeing in Chrome. So, maybe there's something odd going on with my account? Could it be the result of not getting around to finishing up my user page? I managed to get Firefox to return back to the correct display once, after clearing cache/cookies, but since then it's been stuck - as is Chrome, on the improperly displayed page. At any rate - I hope this helps to get to the bottom of it. [[User:Digital Utopia|Digital Utopia]] ([[User talk:Digital Utopia|talk]]) 01:38, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
::::::Yeah, that's the problem I was seeing yesterday on mobile, and I fixed it. I'm noticing that on purging the page, the problem is showing up again, but I've confirmed that my fix is in place, so it may be caching on our end that's causing the issue. I'll talk to Dave about it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 03:14, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
::::::Purging on content3 fixed that page for me. It looks like <code>#explodeargs</code> sometimes doesn't get parsed in [[Template:IDs2]], and the surrounding <code>#sub</code> chews up the start of it, but why it chews up so much on the RefID/BaseID line in the infobox I have no idea - <code><nowiki>{{#len:{{{sep}}}}}</nowiki></code> shouldn't be as long as that, it's just <code><nowiki> </nowiki></code> after all.
::::::It's quite a challenge to dig through the wiki to find the info on your extensions, though I must admit it's there. What I still don't get is why the <code><nowiki>"Added by"</nowiki></code> table row from [[Template:NPC Summary]] doesn't show up in the NPC infobox - is that what the <code><nowiki><cleantable></nowiki></code> tag does? --[[User:Mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:Mendel|talk]]) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
{{od}}I'm pretty sure the #explodeargs issue is just a case of it not having been rolled out on mobile originally, and now our memcached server probably has cached copies of it surfacing at random. I've asked the site owner to restart memcached, just so that we can rule that in or out as a cause. The template itself has been working fine (at least that I'm aware of) until just recently, so it seems unlikely that there's anything specific to the template, though we shouldn't rule it out completely.

As to your other question, <cleantable> is ''supposed'' to clean out rows where there's no useful data (e.g., a header cell with an empty data cell after it). That said, there are a few quirks/bugs to it, and the creator has left the site, so sometimes we have to work around those. So, if the "Added by" is empty and it's not appearing, that's expected behaviour; if it's being removed on a page where it actually was added by a mod, please let us know which page it's occurring on, so we can investigate. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:43, 7 February 2014 (GMT)
:I agree, the template code looks ok. The cleantable tab is also working as intended, it's just surprising at first to see wikicode "disappear". It's a neat hack, though. Thank you for your answer. --[[User:Mendel|◄mendel►]] ([[User talk:Mendel|talk]]) 05:22, 7 February 2014 (GMT)

== Perfect touch ==

You have done this on [[skyrim:pickpocket]] page:
(Undo revision 1277830 by 87.228.67.6 (talk) no, this list is potentially endless so there will be none)
However, it was not a list, but a correction of a previously existing note:
"Perfect Touch does not work on NPCs who wear unobtainable clothing, such as Astrid and Ulfric Stormcloak."
This note is missing the fact that PT perk does not work BOTH for non-playable clothing AND essential NPC. (And Ulfric's clothing can be obtained if he is killed later in the game, actually.)
Examples given by me were not a list, list is indeed very long, and maybe there should be no examples at all, but the fact of essential npc's immunity should be there, I think. Please, give it some consideration. [[User:Sergio Morozov|Sergio Morozov]] ([[User talk:Sergio Morozov|talk]]) 05:11, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

:I've readded the part on being essential and removed the mention of Astrid and Ulfric. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:38, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

::OKay =] [[User:Sergio Morozov|Sergio Morozov]] ([[User talk:Sergio Morozov|talk]]) 19:00, 13 February 2014 (GMT)

== Sorry about that ==

I'm pretty new at this, obviously, so not always sure where to put my questions. Thanks. [[User:Kellynne|Kellynne]] ([[User talk:Kellynne|talk]]) 01:50, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

:No problem. You can start a new section on the non-archived talk page if you need to. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:52, 14 February 2014 (GMT)

== Heavy Armor XP ==

The Heavy XP gain is based on the number of heavy items worn, and the unmitigated damage that a blow would cause even if armor and enchantments reduce the amount of actual damage the player receives. I tested this in detail, wearing unaltered an iron armor complete set while being attacked by a giant garnered no more XP than a legendary iron set with heavy armor enchants. The XP is not related to the damage that a player takes to their health, rather to the potential damage that a successful enemy blow would cause if they were wearing no armor at all.

The net result is that a blow that would cause 400 damage receives the same XP regardless of the actual damage that the player receives to their health.

Basic set plus giant strike = XP
Legendary set plus giant strike = Same XP as above

I was really surprised to discover this because the way the wiki currently reads the amount of XP is related to the amount of lost health. This is incorrect. It is worth testing yourself. {{Uns2|16:52, 22 February 2014|MyBreton}}

:What's your point? I only removed the advice on where to best farm damage, as that will never always be true and is pov. The only thing I did was remove the very basic information that having better defense means you can take on stronger enemies; thats a basic gaming standard true across almost every single game where you can equip armor. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:04, 22 February 2014 (GMT)

:: The way the page reads it make it sound like there is an advantage to use the lower quality armor to lose more health. The footnote on the [[Skyrim:Leveling|Leveing]] page makes good sense. "Raw damage" refers to the damage before armor is taken into account. We should use the same language to better clarify the Heavy Armor and Light Armor pages.

::To your point about using stonger items, this is not always the case in Skyrim, for instance using a legendary Dragonbone sword and 4 One handed enchants will garner no more experience than a plane old Dragonbone sword and no skill enchants. To level weapons faster it actually better to use their vanilla version. [[User:MyBreton|MyBreton]] ([[User talk:MyBreton|talk]]) 17:15, 22 February 2014 (GMT)

:::If the page reads elsewhere that there is an advantage the change it, I changed what you added to "The armor you wear does not impact skill gains." in the Gaining Skill XP section, so what you are saying to me is irrelevant. We're talking defense here not attack, if it were different then it would get some sort of note but its not for defense, your argument about attack is invalid in this context, especially as a note is on the One-handed page about that situation. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:21, 22 February 2014 (GMT)

== Hero ==

Thanks. I couldn't work out where I was going wrong :) --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:24, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

:Literally one character, but its a new thing to us all, still took me a few minutes to see that was all was wrong. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:26, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
::Yeah, I was basically doing "monkey see, monkey do" based on what you did on [[Online:A Hypothetical Treachery]], but I'll know for future. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:30, 24 February 2014 (GMT)
:::Oh wow, we've actually started using labelled section transclusion? We've had it sitting around for so long, pretty much unused. I'll be curious to see how we find it in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:50, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

== Save Values? ==

[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:The_Daggerfall_Chronicles&curid=116244&diff=1284366&oldid=1188003 This] is for references, correct? If so, it should probably go on the [[Books:The Daggerfall Chronicles|book article]] instead. The lore page is for an in-universe item. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:53, 24 February 2014 (GMT)

:<s>I'm trying to get the reference to work, when I input the cite book with the book version it displays a non formatted link (<nowiki>[[Book:The Daggerfall Chronicles|]]</nowiki>)</s>. As you can see I tried using a book link in the title parameter so it would autolink to the book page. The values already exist on the Book page. There is a slight difference in this and the versions for Lord of Souls and The Infernal City were they are redirects and take any requested values from the book page itself. And I just figured out why, its Books. Anyway, I'd still like to see it work so it can be reference more easily. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:03, 25 February 2014 (GMT)

::But it still linked to the Lore page. Looks like the problem was using "Book" instead of "Books" - I just made the same mistake on dev. I supplied the ns parameter, seems to work. --[[User:Alfwyn|Alfwyn]] ([[User talk:Alfwyn|talk]]) 17:20, 25 February 2014 (GMT)

== Question about achievements link ==

I recently started [[Online:Achievements]] and I noticed that you did some cleanup on it. I've edited infrequently in the past and so I'm unfamiliar with how things are supposed to go on UESP (like the fact that placeholders apparently shouldn't be used), and I was wondering why the [http://www.esohead.com/achievements listing of achievements] that I put in the Incomplete tag was removed. I had hoped that adding the link would be beneficial to other users, creating an easy reference that they could use to improve the page, including those who did not play the game in any of the betas. The only thing that you wrote in the edit summary was "Inappropriate", so I don't understand why it was removed. Is it because it's better suited for the article's talk page? Is there some taboo against linking to other reference sites? I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this so that I know what the expectations for UESP are. -[[User:Thunderforge|Thunderforge]] ([[User talk:Thunderforge|talk]]) 16:06, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

:Its inappropriate in two ways. ESOhead is another form of a wiki (though more just the technical side), and we should not be sending people there for information from our articles, especially not to copy it and place it here. It is up to our users to find the information and corroborate it themselves before adding it to the wiki. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:15, 3 March 2014 (GMT)
::Alright, thanks. I definitely meant it in good faith as a way to improve the pages quickly. -[[User:Thunderforge|Thunderforge]] ([[User talk:Thunderforge|talk]]) 16:25, 3 March 2014 (GMT)

== Redirect speedy deletions ==

According to the [[Project:Deletion Policy|Deletion Policy]], I don't think those redirects you've put up for deletion qualify for speedy deletion. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:18, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:Any specific ones? The talk page redirects should all have been deleted at the time, then there are a couple that are leftovers after people didn't know where to start them so made them in an existing namespace, and then a few from misnamed articles that were moved shortly afterwards. Any that were moved were moved a long time ago now and any in-use external links can reasonably be expected to have been updated. Most of the pages that could potentially be controversial were discussed and agreed to be deleted after a while (such as Lore:Tamriel (continent)). Of course we must take care to consider external links being broken, but except for the one example these are all small articles that have very little risk of being linked to anymore. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:: [[Battlespire:Screen Shots]] may be externally linked to, it's pretty ancient. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:10, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:::When an entire namespace was moved redirects were left for a year. 6 months should be long enough for one page that doesn't really have much impact on anything or is all that important. What we must not do is get in the thinking that pages should be kept because an uncontrolled external site has linked to it, we have enough redirects as it is. Our search still works for those that have an interest in finding something. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:17, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

::::I agree with your thinking on external links, though I know not everyone feels that way. I remember a discussion of this some time ago, and Wrye, at the very least, was strongly advocating to keep redirects if they were linked to externally.

::::As for the speedies, I was mostly looking at the talk page ones, since many of them are intentional cross-namespace redirects. That means they're not the result of a typo, they're not broken, they're not in mainspace, and they're not image redirects. I suppose they could be considered maintenance deletions (personally, I consider almost any orphaned redirect that's not a spelling variant or similar to be a trivial deletion), but since they were created deliberately, my feeling is that we should probably give them their full week as proposed deletions. I'm not strongly attached to that position, though, just trying to follow the rules. :) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:50, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

:::::Just a comment on RH's first point: Wrye, his sole objection of any substance was that it meant links in his usermanuals for his file downloads where broken. Which shouldn't be the case for any of these, just to let you know. --[[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 22:54, 7 March 2014 (GMT)

== Images ==

Ah, thanks for letting me know, I'll keep that in mind for next time. And maybe the orrery picture can be used for its future lore page or quest page perhaps. [[User:NovaNovik|NovaNovik]] ([[User talk:NovaNovik|talk]]) 14:59, 7 April 2014 (GMT)NovaNovik

== Hats, Helmets and Circlets ==

With regard to your revert [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim%3AFortify_Alchemy&diff=1314935&oldid=1314924 here]. Helmets and Circlets occupy one and the same equipment slot, no? The current listing, with Circlets separate from Helmets wrongly implies that more than four pieces with that enchantment can be equipped.

I don't really know what you meant with "Hats are Online". There are Hats as well as Helmets and Circlets in the single-player campaign as well, I merely added Hats for completeness' sake. Nevertheless, they all occupy the same equipment slot, so even if we disregard Hats, my point with regard to Circlets and Helmets occupying the same equipment slot still stands. I'm not entirely sure why you reverted. --[[Special:Contributions/89.0.233.204|89.0.233.204]] 20:15, 7 April 2014 (GMT)

:Helmets and circlets are not the same thing, especially concerning enchanting where items are split into more than just the six pieces of equipment you can generally wear. Hats are the name for a category of equipment in ESO, the same section is Hoods in Skyrim. I assumed you were adding the Hats as a misplaced edit on a Skyrim page rather than an Online page. Now that you bring it up again, I don't recall such a list on any other page of the same type, so it may need removed for consistency. Also, see the bugs on that page to see that helmets and circlets can be worn together. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:25, 7 April 2014 (GMT)
::[[Skyrim:Fortify Smithing]] contains a list of enchantable items as well. As far as bugs, I'd argue that bugs are not canonical and exploits involving bugs shouldn't influence the main content of articles. Anyway, I see that you're not interested in any input, so have it your way. Bye. --[[Special:Contributions/89.0.233.204|89.0.233.204]] 00:58, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

:::Thankyou for informing me of my intentions, it makes it much easier than having to form some of my own. You asked for an explanation of my edit and I gave you one, if you wish to debate a change on how things are presented you can ask on the talk page of the article, I am not the sole arbiter of how pages are displayed and your edit may very well be redone if you consider and show my reasoning to be wrong. By running of you show that it is you that is not open to debate, I will be here if you decide to return and contribute a little more constructively. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:04, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

::::If I might just add something - I think 89.0.233.204's intention was to note that the enchantment can be applied to all types of ''"headgear"'' - including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods. While light armor hats are in ESO, I think he may have been referring to the [[Skyrim:Hat#Hat|clothing hats]] in Skyrim, which can indeed be enchanted. Similarly, gauntlets, gloves and bracers can have the enchantment applied to them - but these all would come under the banner of "handgear". While the "Items to Enchant" header isn't on all the enchanting pages, personally I think it is of benefit to readers - provided its standardized across all of them. A catch-all term can be used to avoid confusion. Something like:

::::The <enchant name> effect can be applied to the following items:
:::::*Headgear (Including helmets, circlets, hats and hoods)
:::::*Handgear (Including gauntlets, gloves and bracers)
:::::*Necklaces
:::::*Rings

::::Just some thoughts. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:32, 8 April 2014 (GMT)

== removal of occupants & ores ==

Hi Silencer,

I've noted that occupants is for enemies only, and I'm just updating this page:[[Skyrim:Stendarr's Beacon|Stendarr's Beacon]] and noticed that it had occupants completed so I've removed them as Vigilants aren't enemies. I've also removed the Ore values from the header as they aren't in an interior, but I just wanted to confirm both of these are correct. {{Uns2| 00:22, 10 April 2014|Biffa}}

:Yes, as a wholly exterior zone it has no internal ore veins. A nice simple rule that won't lead to any confusion. I should get back to working on the project page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:27, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
::Yep that I can understand and comply with for both ores and occupants. [[User:Biffa|Biffa]] ([[User talk:Biffa|talk]]) 15:32, 11 April 2014 (GMT)

== Speed: ==

I assume this "fast travel" thing is about the fast travel loading screen time? Is there a formula in the Oblivion data files regarding the fast travel time (i.e. for every X point(s) of Speed gotten, fast travel is reduced by Y second(s)?)

It does seem odd how speed affects loading time. (certainly beats me). '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|Any Questions?]]''' 19:34, 10 April 2014 (GMT)

:That page has nothing to do with loading times, those are entirely beyond the control of the game. The page is concerned with the speed of travel in the game. Fast traveling consumes time, eg Anvil to the Imperial City takes 8 hours at 50 speed, but only 6 hours at 80 speed (times are completely made up but should show how it works). The same thing applies to horses; fast traveling on a horse takes less in game time than fast traveling while on foot. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:40, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
::So it's just that having a higher speed stat gets there at a quicker time; it won't make the loading screen pass in a femtosecond? '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|Any Questions?]]''' 19:45, 10 April 2014 (GMT)
:::Correct. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:48, 10 April 2014 (GMT)

== Help? ==

I'm trying to transclude [[Online:Loriasel Tablet, Entry 1]] and Entry 2 from [[Lore:Loriasel Tablet Notes]], but it hates me. For some reason, Entry 3 works? Any ideas where I'm going wrong? --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 16:19, 17 April 2014 (GMT)
:I took a look at it; you accidentally started the section for Entry 2 with 'part1' instead of 'part2'. So you had two part1 starts and zero part2 starts. -- [[User:Hargrimm|Hargrimm]][[User talk:Hargrimm|(T)]] 16:49, 17 April 2014 (GMT)
::Hmmm, it seems I'm an idiot. Thanks! --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 17:02, 17 April 2014 (GMT)

== Staff of Magnus ==

Regarding your reason for undoing my edit, I think you misunderstood something. I'm on Xbox 360 and didn't abuse anything to repeat a quest. [[Skyrim:Aftershock|Aftershock]] is a repeating Radiant quest that can be started multiple times on any platform. I also tried simply waiting for the area to respawn (as long as 60 days) and there was no staff in the ash pile. I've thoroughly tested many combinations of waiting, starting and completing Aftershock, and starting it seems to be the trigger.
I'll leave it up to you whether to add my info back or not. [[Special:Contributions/70.209.64.190|70.209.64.190]] 12:56, 27 April 2014 (GMT)

:I see now. I misread it as the quest that takes you to Labyrinthine, which would make some sense at least. Why Aftershock does it is odd, but obviously at that stage the location can be accessed again. I will redo your edit. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:41, 27 April 2014 (GMT)

== Abouts ==

We should hold off on adding abouts to pages, because NPCs in ESO have the tendency to drop or add parts of the name when appearing in different areas. An NPC in one area might have a last name, and then appear as a projection or a vision during another quest without the last name, despite being the same NPC. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 04:19, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

:Alright. They'll be turned into redirects once known right? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:53, 12 May 2014 (GMT)
::Of course. Just need a good way to figure out which name is either first or used most often. The main ones I'm thinking of right now are a few Khajiit's in reaper's march who were referred with -ma attached and unattached to their name. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 11:10, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

:::Shouldn't we go with the full name as their main page, so long as its displayed ingame at some point of course. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:14, 12 May 2014 (GMT)

== Letter from Tillrani ==

Ack, sorry about that and thanks for moving it. -- [[User:Valadez|Valadez]]  [[User talk:Valadez| Talk ]][[Special:Contributions/Valadez| Contributions ]] 21:48, 16 May 2014 (GMT)

== Coldharbour ==

Good day, Silencer

I see that you undid my edit on {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}} based upon the rationale that it is given that Daedra inhabit Coldharbour as a plane of Oblivion, but my concern is that new users, those who want just quick information, or those not knowledgeable about the world of the Elder Scrolls would be unaware of this. The article does not mention anything about the Dremora that service {{Lore Link|Molag Bal}} or that {{Lore Link|Auroran}}s are (or used to be, depending on how the events of ESO play out) trapped inside his realm. I refferenced a book that tells us about this and could reference more (I planned to edit the page today) to include the name of one Dremora Clan that services Molag Bal (being the Deathbringers). I also believe that the last sentence of the first paragraph is misleading if you say that Daedra inhabiting the planes of Oblivion being fact as it both gives an exception to Coldharbour and implies that only Soul Shrivens inhabit the realm. "As opposed to other realms of Oblivion, Coldharbour is largely lifeless, instead filled with souls of the dead, called Soul Shriven, where they are tormented for eternity." I understand that nothing below absolute certainty should be used, but books found in ESO say otherwise about this Deathbringer Clan, and another book (cannot remember where or how, but talked about Draedroth [the lizard-like Daedra] also inhabiting the realm) talks about Draedroth being formed within Coldharbour as part of their re-forming process that Daedra go through when they die.

Thank you for reading, please reply! [[User:Rencini|Rencini]] ([[User talk:Rencini|talk]]) 12:46, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

: A lot of Daedra inhabit Coldharbour. There's no point being so specific about clans and such until we have all the information. I would suggest changing the wording of the Soul Shriven sentence to imply they dwell there along with the Daedra, but otherwise holding off on the details for now. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 13:52, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

::Incomplete info is not good on any lore article, the only thing worse is incorrect info. This is part of the reasoning behind locking page creation in lore when new games come out, people rush to add each bit of information they find as they find it, resulting in an incoherent page with conflicting statements. The restrictions are less harsh in the gamespaces (Online in this case), so adding info to the ON:Coldharbour page is fine as it will get more attention and will be quickly changed by someone who has found alternate sources. On the topic of Daedra, types of Daedra are only notable if they are not associated with the realm's Prince, but Daedra clans are a different thing (as far as see anyway). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:06, 22 May 2014 (GMT)

== "A" vs. "An" ==

If we're going by American English, "An historic" is incorrect. [https://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/591/01/] [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 23:35, 30 May 2014 (GMT)

:An historic is not incorrect in American English. That link shows nothing to support an alternative argument. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:38, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
::[http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/words/a-historic-event-or-an-historic-event Have another then.] There's no "argument" because there's nothing to argue. This is a basic grammatical rule, you use "an" when the first phonetic sound is a vowel and "a" when the first sound is a consonant. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 23:41, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
:::That link says it is more logical and does not say that it is wrong to use 'an'. In fact it supports its usage as Bethesda has a history of using old forms of words and the grammar associated with them. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:44, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
::::Um, just because something is older/less common, it doesn't mean it's incorrect. According to the Oxford source people used to pronounce "historical" as "istorical" in the 18th-19th century, hence the "an", and in this context Bethesda was emulating a medieval-esque writing style; it should be expected that older rules and conventions are used. [[User:Quill-Tail|—<({Quill-Tail]][[User talk:Quill-Tail|>>]] 23:53, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
:::::Hence the addition of the sic template to let people know not to change it from the older English dialect to the more commonly-used modern form. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 23:57, 30 May 2014 (GMT)
::::::I've already fought a battle in having a sic tag incorrectly used for a correct word, I'm not interested in fighting that battle again so you can read over it and see the reasons why that reasoning is flawed; [[Lore_talk:The_Bear_of_Markarth]]. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
{{od}}I wasn't aware that there was already a discussion on the matter. If the community agrees that outdated linguistic patterns don't require sic tags, I'm okay with that, but I wish you had explained that to me in the first place. I kind of thought you were just being obstinate, I didn't realize you actually had something to support your position with. Also, I take issue with your assertion that my reasoning is "flawed". Given that Jeancey made the same assumption I did independently, I don't think it's unreasonable to interpret that template in multiple ways. If the community supports a decision, that's one thing, but could you maybe tell me that in a way that doesn't make it sound like you're talking down to me? [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 00:29, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
:The wikipedia policy on sics smacks of interfering bureaucrats poking their noses where they shouldn't. If a UESP policy on sics was written I would argue for more sensible and intelligent rules. Anyone who uses the wikipedia definition should seriously consider revising their knowledge on the English language. That's how I feel about that 'policy' and anyone who uses it. I apologise for any offence given and my short shrift in referring you to the other conversation rather than explaining properly that the flaws lie in the 'policy', and I am obstinate. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:41, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
::Thank you. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] ([[User talk:ThuumofReason|talk]]) 13:01, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
:::Another option here is to create a "do not correct" template of some form (basically, {{tl|Sic}} with different text) or just add HTML comments to discourage editors from "correcting" what they believe is a mistake. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:00, 31 May 2014 (GMT)
::::That is never a path I would go down. Highlighting correctly used words suggests that we don't trust the intelligence of our readers. Hidden HTML tags should only be used as a very last resort when dealing with words that keep getting changed, because then we can point to that and show why it is needed. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:19, 31 May 2014 (GMT)

== Pets as Creatures ==

The [[Online:Pets]] page is supposed to document the items, not the creatures. The creature pages should be separate (e.g. [[Online:Mudcrab]]). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:00, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:It's an overview page of some creatures, same as passive creatures or undead. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:02, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:: Not really. The creatures themselves don't have labels (apart from the Dwarven spider, but the creature name is different than the item). The "pets" are items that you activate to summon the creatures, which is where the section headers come from, i.e. there's an item called 'Pet Imgakin', but no creature with that name. Additionally, we have the page listed [[Online:Items|here]]. In the future we may want to replace the sections with a table. Are you under the impression that it's a creature page because of the images? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:14, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:::Yes, the pictures, style, and prose of the sections is written as about the creatures, not an 'item' that summons a creature. You also wrote that Imgakin are visually different to monkeys but we don't have a page on Imgakin to that effect. It would help a lot if an opening paragraph detailing how to use said items to get a pet (e.g. keep them in your inventory, passive/active, how many at once). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:23, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

:::: I could add some of those details now. A page for imgakin would be good too. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:48, 2 June 2014 (GMT)

== Orgnum ==

Thank you, could you please also delete Orgnum Thras redirect page? [[Special:Contributions/93.178.98.207|93.178.98.207]] 11:39, 11 June 2014 (GMT) (Phoenix_Neko)

:Talk page redirects are generally useless so there is no issue over that. On the Orgnum page a short discussion took place that decided to keep the redirect so I see no reason to delete the page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:41, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

::Well, the redirect is useless anymore. Yet, I'm surprised by your undo of my change at RPEH's talk page. As far as I can see, you did the upgrade of some link at the same talk page, so I thought it is okay. [[Special:Contributions/93.178.98.207|93.178.98.207]] 11:43, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

:::Userpages should be left alone as much as possible, and changing the link on that particular page could lead to confusion. Unused redirects are not always useless, but you can propose it yourself if you can show that there is no use for it at all (use the {{tl|Prod}} template because it has already been disputed). Of course if it does get deleted then the userpage link would have to be changed but that's another story. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

::::Thank you for clarification. Well, if I use {{tl|Prod}} I think that'd be helluva talking, so I'd rather pass. I suck at negotiations, for my English is far from excellent. [[Special:Contributions/93.178.98.207|93.178.98.207]] 12:16, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

:::::I'm normally a big fan of getting rid of useless redirects, but looking at the discussion that's now on [[Lore talk:Orgnum]], I'd say that that one should stay in. The "Thras" presumably came from somewhere, so unless it was purely a one-time user error when the page was created, someone might be looking for "Orgnum Thras", and even if they see [[Lore:Orgnum]] pop up in the search, it may not be clear that the two are indeed the same. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 13:59, 11 June 2014 (GMT)

== Real world NPC names ==
I thought it was common to write down information about real world connections of NPC names in the "Notes" section as a curiosity. I recall seeing it earlier in other articles but I can't find an example now. Is this a new policy? Personally I thinks it is fun to see if a (assumed) fantasy name actually is a real name in another language/country. /Fredrik, Sweden. 20:36, 24 June 2014 (GMT)
:There have been discussions over name terminology, and I think we've come down to only allowing this in case it's relevant to the character. The fact that a name is common in Sweden is hardly noteworthy, given that many of the names in Skyrim are Scandinavian names. An example of where it would be noteworthy is Vilkas and Farkas, which both mean wolf, which fits their lycanthropy ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 20:48, 24 June 2014 (GMT)
::Yeah, of course. It makes sense. Actually the main reason for adding it from the beginning was that I think I've read somewhere that Christer has an additional meaning, namely that it can also mean "big and strong". This definitely does not fits Christer^^. Unfortunately I couldn't find a source other than Wikipedia. Thanks for your time and for contributing to UESP! /Fredrik {{Uns2|21:04, 24 June 2014|90.230.93.89 }}
:::Etymologies that are what the character is are acceptable (Farkas means wolf, and he's a werewolf). Etymologies that don't fit are not documented due to subjectivity in determining whether it was deliberate or not. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:15, 24 June 2014 (GMT)

== Light Blue Regalia and Amiable Fanriene ==

Hello. Regarding the changes I made to the [[Shivering:Orinthal|Orinthal]], [[Shivering:Dancer|Dancer]] and [[Shivering:Amiable Fanriene|Amiable Fanriene]] pages, I can understand you reverting my edits. I only made the changes to be consistent with the [[Shivering:Sontaire|Sontaire]] and [[Shivering:Tilse Areleth|Tilse Areleth]] pages, where the clothing has been capitalized. The small section I removed on the Amiable Fanriene page didn't make grammatical sense to me: "He wears typical Mania outfit: a light blue regalia." and so I felt that it could be simplified. In addition (as far as I know) only two NPCs wear this outfit (Amiable Fanriene and the Dancer) so calling it a "typical Mania outfit" doesn't seem quite right. Perhaps: "He wears a vibrant Light Blue Regalia." would be more fitting? I look forward to hearing your thoughts. [[User:AquaticPossum|AquaticPossum]] ([[User talk:AquaticPossum|talk]]) 19:43, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

:One of the worst types of thinking is 'one page does it so lets spread it everywhere else', it was so inherently wrong to cap the names of clothing that I couldn't even think of a logical reason to type in to the summary. While the exact type of clothing may be limited in scope, it fits the general Mania style of clothing so there's no reason not to mention it, though I accept the grammar could be improved. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:54, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

:: Items used to be capitalized as they appear in-game, but that was changed after Skyrim came out. Obviously some of the Shivering Isles articles weren't updated to reflect this. I agree that the wording on Amiable Fanriene's page was a bit clunky; hopefully [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering%3AAmiable_Fanriene&diff=1363678&oldid=1363453 this change] is satisfactory. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:10, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

::: My apologies for not creating this section at the bottom of the page. Good to know about the practice of not displaying certain items exactly as they appear in-game, I'll bear that in mind for the future. The new wording sounds good to me. [[User:AquaticPossum|AquaticPossum]] ([[User talk:AquaticPossum|talk]]) 22:09, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

::::Just because they aren't capitalised doesn't mean it isn't correct. The items on their own page (i.e. the clothing page) shows the items name as seen in-game, but when using it in a sentence it is proper to not capitalize it, just as you wouldn't cap horses or bandits. The items are not displayed in a sentence in-game when you see them, and when items are they are capped properly (i.e. the way it is done here). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:28, 27 June 2014 (GMT)

== Regarding Marker Icon vs Service Icon ==

I was just wondering your reasoning behind using a place link, description and marker icon for stalls in [[ON:Royal Bazaar|Royal Bazaar]], and redirecting to a merchant. What I have been doing, eg for [[Online:Port Hunding's Open Marketplace|Port Hunding's Open Marketplace]], is just naming the stall and its merchants and using the service icon (stalls' individual pages redirect to the Marketplace page). I'm not saying either way is necessarily better than the other, but at certain stalls there is more than one merchant, meaning redirecting to a merchant may not work, and some stalls do not have names. Also, by using Marker Icon, the icon appears fuzzy and on the left of the stall name, whereas the icon belongs to the merchant (and not their stall). Service Icon is much crisper and also links to the correct vendor page. (See also Store Icons vs Vendor Icons at [[User:Enodoc#Store Types]], as I think at some point we were discussing possibly splitting some Stores into different types.) --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 14:37, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

:The redirects are being created so I thought it better to use them. Service Icon didn't work inside the description template so I used the marker one instead. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:53, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

::Oh that's odd. Maybe it doesn't know how to #save a template? I'll have a play around and see what happens. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:46, 1 July 2014 (GMT)

:::It seems that during the #save/#load process it does not fully parse the link. Perhaps the best thing to do then, to stop fuzzy icons appearing in the wrong places, would be to do <nowiki>{{Place Link}} followed by {{Service Icon}}</nowiki>.
:::In the example of Aralas' Arcane Implements, it would be <nowiki>{{Place Link|Aralas' Arcane Implements}} {{Service Icon|Mystic}}</nowiki> to give
:::*{{Place Link|Aralas' Arcane Implements|mapname=none|ns_base=Online|marker_icon=}} {{Service Icon|Mystic|ns_base=Online}}
:::I think this would be a tidier way to do it, particularly in the case of more than one merchant per store (the icons can all be lined up at the end). --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 13:05, 7 July 2014 (GMT)

== The image i posted ==

I deleted it, i found it on google images and i didn't know there was any documentation required, so do i still need documentation if i deleted the image. {{Uns2|22:31, 10 July 2014|Wubonater}}

:Not if you request an admin to delete the image itself, removing it from the page isn't enough if you do not want to use it. Post the {{tl|Speed}} template on the file page to request deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:35, 10 July 2014 (GMT)

== i have a question ==

how do i Document an image, i have images of arena that the arena page can use, and if i took the picture do i have to document it {{uns|Wubonater|09:48, 11 July 2014 (GMT)}}

:Proper documentation involves applying an appropriate license and attribution to the creator. In this case if you have taken the images ingame yourself, you merely need to select the license uespimage (under the "UESP Screenshots only" header) when uploading the image. Your username is automatically applied to the file in accredit you with that image. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:58, 12 July 2014 (GMT)

== Stormhold ==

Just wanted to let you know that I've reverted your use of the {{tl|bug}} template in the [[Stormhold]] namespace, which I've [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Stormhold%3AGetting_Started&diff=1199117&oldid=1105354 done before] on account of it screwing with the layout and being of no practical use in the namespace. Since the game's NPCs have a single bug between them, there's no reason to apply irrelevant standards like superfluous bulletpoints and a plural heading over style. Thanks. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 02:58, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

:Well thats just wrong, there is no reason why Stormhold should be exempt from the same style layout such as plural headers (which are a wiki standard not just UESP), and the bug format, which also serves to show the bug is confirmed or needs confirmation. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:01, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

:: As I said, superfluous bulletpoints and incorrect pluralisation of a single bug. No one is going to confirm the bug because no one plays Stormhold, so unless you want to test it out yourself I imagine you'd be dependent on either me or Krusty for confirmation - and since I added the bug, that's a no-no. The "bug format" is for games that require a list layout, and the confirmation requirement was brought about by the huge variance of play in the sandbox games, which is kind of ridiculous to impose on a simple Java mobile game. Those sections are not lists, they are documentation of a single bug written in prose. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 03:08, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

:::Again your concerns are invalid, the use of the nobullet parameter would restore the layout you wish to see, and the header format isn't questionable, all headers should be plural, be they for a single sentence or a single image, it really isn't up for debate unless you wish to rewrite the entire style layout. You say/suggest that Krusty has played the games, so a quick check with him to confirm the bug is all that is needed, and then even that issue is resolved. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:24, 14 July 2014 (GMT)

== Warning ==

{{Warning|Your personal attacks against [[User:Biffa|Biffa]] are out of line. This kind of behavior has to stop, for the good of the Wiki. As a long standing contributor, you should have known this. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 00:53, 17 July 2014 (GMT)}}

:Glad to see that another person has decided to read into a situation they know nothing about, thanks. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:58, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
::You're really not making yourself look any better here. Play the victim all you like, but the fact remains that YOU were the one who started that confrontation, YOU were the one who broke the etiquette policy (in fact, you openly defied it), and YOU are consequently the one in the wrong here. Any outside observer (which both Dominus and I were) could clearly see that your comments were inappropriate. This warning is entirely justified, so just take it as a learning experience and we can all move on without this kind of thing happening again. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 01:04, 17 July 2014 (GMT)
:::This is completely unwarranted. How can you claim neutrality yet bring up a separate topic within that comment of your's, all while avoiding the issue at hand. I barely touched breaking the etiquette policy, while Biffa clearly broke it saying I 'gone out of your way to make thing unpleasant for me on this site.' Warning me 'for the good of the wiki' when I was trying to engage an editor and improve their clearly flawed methods is so ironic it hurts. Get back to me when you can contribute to the issue of Biffa's testing methods. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:49, 17 July 2014 (GMT)

== Icons ==

Per [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Isolated_House&curid=6114&diff=1376448&oldid=1376441 this], can you point me towards where this was standardised? As far as I can tell it hasn't been fully implemented (see [[Skyrim:Dawnguard Places]] for example), and I don't see the point in mislabelling places for the sake of having an icon. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:31, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

:The template was created for the express purposes of pages like those ones. It is used for places that have a type but lack an icon, where others of the same type have an icon. A handful of the places on the Dawnguard page are worldspaces, for which there is no icon. As a repetitively new addition (January '13), being introduced between games it isn't surprising that many pages don't have it yet. The template does not mislabel anything, when used in the place link template it indicates what type of building it is, not that it has an icon on the map. This template was made after the Place Link template was changed from deriving the icon directly from the saved value for the type, and instead taking the marker id value (which these pages lack), so in essence there was no outward change, it is simply a continuation of how things were done. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:48, 4 August 2014 (GMT)

== Joke ==

That block reason is a joke, at what point was I intimidating, or are you just afraid to answer my questions? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:48, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

== Blocked ==

{{Blocked|1=This IP address has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki for one week for persistent abuse of other editors. Your attitude is nothing short of toxic at this point, and your contributions have become disruptive. If you wish to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing Blocks|appeal the block]], you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. ⇠[[User:Eshe|eshe]]'''[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]''' 22:50, 5 August 2014 (GMT)}}
As a side note, if you continue to abuse other editors using the privilege of editing your talk page, that right can be removed as well. Please take this time to reconsider your attitude toward other members of this community. ⇠[[User:Eshe|eshe]]'''[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]''' 22:51, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:You don't know the meaning of abuse of power do you? Of course I appeal this nonsense on the grounds that you don't know what you are doing. You and the other administrators have deliberately lied in my appeal over my warning, have willingly broken policies to support your lies, and generally have no idea what you are doing. What abuse have I committed now? Do you think I would just lie down and let you misuse your administrative tools? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:54, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
:Block and run Eshe, block and run. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:00, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::I've been following the discussion at the Admin Noticeboard, and you have persisted in name-calling the administrators, accusing them of being delusional, liars, and so forth. Normally I'd be inclined to say that they should respond in kind, but they have consistently been more reasonable with you than you have been with them. You keep acting like they have committed some horrible injustice against you, yet the evidence for their case against you is plastered all on the admin noticeboard, and you have escalated this to the point where you are figuratively foaming at the mouth and getting yourself blocked for blatant personal attacks on this site's staff. You seem like a great editor, and it would be a shame to lose you, but you have either completely missed the entire point of that previous discussion or completely ignored it. You received your warning for your attitude, the way you have been attacking people with your comments (it's not subtle), and now you continue doing the same thing against the administrators in some naive attempt to do what? Do you not understand what you are doing or do you just not care? ∬([[User:RisingDusk|''RisingDusk'']])[[User_talk:RisingDusk|'''dxdy''']] 23:03, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:::If the truth were spoken there would be no lies. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:16, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
{{ec}}It's unfortunate that it's come to this. For three weeks, I haven't seen any more misbehavior on your part, and I was really hoping that you had cooled down and that we could all move past this. Like elliot before you, you've responded to a singular, relatively minor incident by actively transforming it into a much larger one that necessitates action. Given that the incident that got elliot banned involved you, I would have thought you'd be able to see the parallels between your two situations. Maybe you did and you just don't care, since you were the only one pushing for your rights to be removed.
The funny thing is, if you hadn't revived that discussion today, I would have been willing to forgive the things you said earlier as a moment of (admittedly extreme) passion. You're a good editor, yet you were willing to throw all that away over some misplaced sense of pride. I know you know better than this, but it really doesn't matter. You've got what you were after, so if you have any desire to return to editing in a week, you should refrain from any more jibes. "Unfortunate" is the only word I can think of to describe this episode. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 23:19, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:When I and my words are twisted and given false meanings I will defend myself, its a pity people choose to accept the lies rather than the truth. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:23, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::In order to avoid edit warring or angering Silencer, can the notice please read "This account ..." rather than "This IP address ..."? I didn't think it was tampering with the warning (It only made it a valid phrase), but Silencer considered it to be so. May I know why you reverted it Silencer? ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 00:01, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
:::Silencer was correct in this case. His IP address has been blocked from editing, not just his account (I think that's how that works), and he is right that you're not supposed to mess with block messages, even for clarity's sake. It's kind of like how we don't fix typos in other users' posts. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 00:12, 6 August 2014 (GMT)
::::Note that due to The Silencer's response to Eshe with its myriad personal attacks, I have re-blocked him without the ability to edit his talk page. Those of you who wish to communicate further will have to do so by e-mail. For the time being, his ability to e-mail is also not blocked, so he can also contact anyone he feels he needs to by e-mail. If that becomes problematic, please post here and that setting can be changed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:57, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

== Appeal ==

The appeal to the block which I received by abuse of power.

Why do I need the ability to edit? Because even in a reduced role I am still the one cleaning up edits, keeping them inline with the style and policies of the wiki where others do not.

What pages? None specifically because the nature of my edits are mostly from the random pages link, cleaning up other edits, or following things such as new files and adding anything missing.

Examples? Again, the nature of my edits preclude being able to provide an example. Look at my contributions and you'll see no pattern.

Being unable to show anything specific doesn't help, but an example of the workload I bore would be the vast increase in unpatrolled edits in the last (almost) month from a rather small pool of around 10 a day left to anywhere between 20 and 50.

I may have called the admins involved liars, but I can and did prove it. Blocking me for stating the obvious and seeking answers and some integrity is hardly a fit reaction. A week is hardly a fit response to being called out on a lie. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:15, 5 August 2014 (GMT)
:The "proof" you claim to offer in your personal attacks is not recognized as such by anybody else on the wiki, nor is the alleged abuse of power. Given the fact that your revival of 3-week old issues and needling of other editors (which can only be intentional on your part, judging by your mention of "burning bridges" in your edit summaries [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=1369210&oldid=1369209 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=next&oldid=1369213 here]), not to mention the fact that getting blocked was [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=1369214&oldid=1369213 YOUR] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=1376885&oldid=1376875 idea], I see no reason the block should be removed. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 23:40, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::Thank you for twisting my words. I said I would rather be blocked than warned, not that I wanted blocked, or that I agreed that I should be. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:46, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:::Silencer, I recently emailed you questions that are related to this. I honestly want to know what your side of this story is. Perhaps you would be willing to share it in order to increase the chances of your appeal? I don't personally see any issue with the administrator actions, although I am admittedly biased because I issued the original warning. I feel that you have not provided enough proof, although perhaps I am just missing it. I can see Silencer's point. Although, if we are to go through with that, there is really no point in this appeal. After all, it would be a permanent block rather than a temporary one. If Silencer can provide proof in the forms of diffs, either publicly or privately, I will support the removal of the block. Until then, or if he is unable to prove it to my satisfaction, I think it should remain.

:::You are a great editor, and I honestly regret pulling the trigger and putting this all in motion. Was it necessary at the time? Yes, I believe it was. I do regret it honestly and would like to apologize for everything. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 23:57, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

::::I see no emails from you in my inbox, and why should I discuss anything with you when you didn't even feel the need to clear up any possible issues before starting this. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:03, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

:::::Strange. It must have been put into your spam folder then. I told the software to send me a copy, and I have that copy. You have every right to refuse to discuss it with me. As my email not being received shows, even if I tried to clear up any issues (I did not contact you, but I did suggest that you both take a break and calm down) it wouldn't have made a difference. I was merely throwing the option out there. You have no obligation to follow through with that. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 00:08, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

::::::So it is (I didn't see anyone else's mail in there though for those who might ask). If the date on it is correct (3rd August) then its a little late for that kind of question seeing as you'd given the warning over two weeks beforehand. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:19, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

== Defile ==

While I did say it there, what relevance has that discussion to the recent one? Pity I wasn't invited to my own trial to learn how far back we'd go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:20, 5 August 2014 (GMT)

:You brought it up, not me. On Biffa's talk page, you provided a link accusing him of mocking you. That response was to your "defiling" post. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:53, 6 August 2014 (GMT)

== Bug fixes are never guaranteed ??? ==

Excuse me, but what exactly does this mean? Does this mean unofficial fixes may or may not work, depending on various conditions? Unlike Morrowind and Oblivion I don't have the time to concern myself much with Skyrims's internal processing (Creation Kit, Papyrus scripts etc.), but judging from the previous games, I assume most bugs can be fixed on the fly without starting a new game, or is Skyrim so much different than it's predecessors? And even If this was the case, I'm using the USKP v2.0.4a since I've started the second playthrough of the game, so bugs that are claimed to be fixed by even lower versions should no longer occur, right? And last I would also be interested in how the UESP defines a "game bug". Is a bug just a feature of the game or a certain quest which is defined, but for some reasons, does not work as intended? Or is a bug also an illogical game- or quest-feature (this is my definition of a bug, at least when it comes to computer games) e.g. contingents of hostile troops and equipment remaining after a hold was taken by one of the two waring sides? Since a couple of such "bugs" I've been submitting during the past months have already been removed, I would be interested in some enlightenment regarding this obscurity.--[[User:PLRDLF|PLRDLF]] ([[User talk:PLRDLF|talk]]) 22:59, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

:It means that the fix is not guaranteed to fix it, even in the official patches. Some bugs are more inherent in the game and require more work even though the 'fix' appears to work. An easy example is the 'backwards flying dragons' that were the result of an attempted fix for something else, causing more problems than there were in the first place. There is no policy on what is and what isn't a bug for the site, its mostly subjective, though things like spelling mistakes and grammar in books is not considered a bug as they can easily happen in real life, whereas the USKP changes any it finds. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:19, 16 August 2014 (GMT)

== Pointless edit ==

How is it a pointless edit to remove an underline within a link, which are supposed to be removed? [[User:Biffa|Biffa]] ([[User talk:Biffa|talk]]) 08:53, 17 August 2014 (GMT)

:Underscores are not supposed to be removed, it is a choice for the user to use either. The majority of users will remove them when doing other things to the page, but an edit to remove them on its own serves no other purpose than to bump your edit count. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:04, 17 August 2014 (GMT)
::While I agree that removing the underscores in a link is essentially pointless, I have seen other people (including me) make similar edits that have no real effect on the article, and may just be the result of low-grade OCD (in my case). According to the [[Help:Links#Page Names|Links]] page, either form is fine for internal links, so undoing it is just as pointless, and both edits add unnecessary entries to the Recent Changes list. A friendly note on Biffa's talk page would have probably been a more appropriate action here, especially considering the recent history between the two of you. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 05:17, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

:::Pointless edits are heavily discouraged across all wikis, to the extent that undoing them is the correct action. I'll thank you to know the correct response to them before saying the wrong thing. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:28, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

::::Per [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary|Wikipedia:Revert only when necessary]], "Don't revert an edit because it is unnecessary — because it does not improve the article. For a reversion to be appropriate, the reverted edit must actually make the article worse." – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:35, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

:::::This is about pointless edits, and what to do when that happens, not the general thinking. Focused policies often have exceptions to the general rules. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 18 August 2014 (GMT)

== SRHRP Header standardization ==

Hey Silencer -
Was wanting to standardize the headers in the Skyrim Houses pages, as they are pretty much all over the place. I posted this on the [[UESPWiki talk:Skyrim Houses Redesign Project#Header uniformity?|project discussion]] but was advised to double-check with you and Krusty (cc'd on this). I was hoping to start cleaning up some of the Houses, but wanted your input on headers before I do. I was proposing:
==Header 1, no italics, for main space, i.e., The White Phial, Bob's House==
===Header 2, no italics, for any zones===
Let me know your thoughts. --[[User:Beezer1029|Beezer1029]] ([[User talk:Beezer1029|talk]]) 22:28, 4 September 2014 (GMT)

== Not-so-blind Falmer? ==

I'm just curious where it says that the Falmer aren't completely blind. You're way more up on your Lore than I am, so I don't doubt the accuracy of {{Pl|Skyrim:Muffle (effect)|diff=1392378&oldid=1392358|your statement}}, but I'd always thought they were completely blind and I'm curious to read (or listen to, whatever) whatever it is that mentions that it's not total. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:08, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

:Their Blindness value is only {{CSList|game=sr|formid=00052ff480|80%}}, though lore (and the general lack of eyes) suggests they have total blindness. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 02:02, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

::Ah, got it! Thanks. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:27, 19 September 2014 (GMT)

== Regarding Civil War Forts ==

My apologies for "edit warring". My computer has been acting up and I thought it wasn't saving my edits. And I was merely putting on Fort Snowhawk what was already on Neugrad and Sungard(which i did not edit). Don't know how to do the verify on the edits. Also, didn't know you commented on my discussion topic because I had been waiting for a response for a week and no one said anything so I decided to edit the page myself. From what I can see, if I side with the Empire, forts in Imperial holds stay occupied by enemy factions, however forts in Stormcloak holds become occupied by Stormcloak troops. The only way to garrison Imperial soldiers is to conquer Stormcloak-controlled forts. The only exception is Fort Greymoor which has become correctly occupied by Imperial soldiers after defending the city of Whiterun. I do not know if the reverse is true (siding with the Stormcloaks/fighting the Empire). [[Special:Contributions/71.171.112.31|71.171.112.31]] 22:11, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

:No worries, but lets keep the comments all in one place now, on Fort Snowhawk's talk page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:25, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

::I have since read and commented on Fort Snowhawk page. So let us continue the discussion. [[Special:Contributions/71.171.112.31|71.171.112.31]] 22:32, 2 October 2014 (GMT)

== Weye ==

I noticed [[Oblivion:Weye|Weye]] being considered a village, while it is definitely the house of Aelwin Merowald (without the UOP). I was wondering if the house can be integrated on that page, since both have the same name, because currently the house info is still on Aelwin's page (and his house is also incorrectly stated as "Weye's Farmhouse") ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 14:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

:Weye includes both the inn and the house if I'm not mistaken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:25, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

::Yes, but I'm asking if the house info would be included on that page as a separate section ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 17:56, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

:::No, it would go on the house page, which would need created and disambiguated. My opinion on that would be to just add "Weye (house)" without moving "Weye". [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:04, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

::::Yes that occurred to me after I just posted. Weye should be moved to Weye (settlement) or something though ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 18:10, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::Not necessarily, as the settlement has more priority, and the opening sentence can easily be changed to explain the difference with a link, or the use of an about if the need is felt. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:14, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

::::::Well it's easier to do it your way, I'll go ahead and create the Weye (house) page, and I'll move the current image and reupload one of both buildings ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 18:22, 6 October 2014 (GMT)

== Skyrim:Asta ==

I removed that note saying: ''"She is a member of the [[Skyrim:Bandit (class)|bandit]] class, which determines the level of her skills."'' You came along, and, for starters, I noticed you had pressed the "undo" option and then pressed "'''save changes'''", which had undone my edit saying in the edit summary: ''"so are a lot of other things in the article"''. Tell me then: if by you saying there are a lot of other things in the article, then why are they not removed then? Pages need consistency. If pages had consistency, there would be a note on every NPC page saying: ''"<NPC name goes here> is a member of the <class name goes here>, which determines the level of his/her skills."''. It isn't on every NPC page, so it is a little more than obvious it is something that he wiki lacks consistency of. Please could you explain why you had to undo my edit? '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|#:)]]'''|
:In my opinion, notes like that should be removed because I really don't think an NPCs class is worthy of a note. Also because it's not on all of the Skyrim NPCs' pages. Maybe it's there because Asta doesn't seem like a bandit therefore her class is a curiosity? I don't know for sure, but this is just my opinion. On another note, I don't think you meant to come across this way, but please, please, please watch the tone you use when writing a talk page message, especially regarding an undo. I can understand that it's frustrating sometimes, but please try and have a more friendly and positive tone so there aren't any unnecessary and completely avoidable conflicts. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 12:39, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
::If my memory serves, the reason those lines exist is because of a discussion a while back regarding NPCs who have classes that are incongruous with their actual function, as we normally start NPC articles with (Name), a (race) (class). It's so the class can be noted in the article without describing the NPC misleadingly, so we don't end up calling Farkas a blacksmith or describe all the NPC's who use the Dremora class as dremora when they are not. --[[User:Anil|AN|L]] ([[User talk:Anil|talk]]) 14:31, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
:::Class is extremely relevant to an NPC, especially ones that are involved in combat. As such it is a requirement to have it mentioned in the description, but in some cases the class does not reconcile with the NPC without speculating or making unsubstantiated assumptions and so it was agreed that in those cases it could be removed from the main description and placed as a note (which made no assumptions or guesses but simply states facts). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:44, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
::::For anyone interested, the extensive discussion about this can be found [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_33#Introductory_Sentence_of_NPC_Pages|here]]. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 17:48, 10 October 2014 (GMT)
:::::Asta ''is'' technically a bandit. That's what the CK says anyways. Also, as a side note, I am not quite sure that— Oh. Wait. Maybe it is incorrect. Thr discussion on "Introductory Sentence of NPC Pages" is irrelevant to mentioning the NPCs class in the "Notes" section '''[[User:Dragon Guard|DG]][[User talk:Dragon Guard|#:)]]''' 17:55, 11 October 2014 (GMT)
::::::This isn't a debate on whether or not it should be there, if you want to remove them all start a topic on the community portal. The note is correct as of the current policies. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:17, 11 October 2014 (GMT)

== Neither prettier nor better ==

Is it really more aesthetically pleasing to have ‡‡ and ††† as footnote markers? Is it really more pleasing to have "N/A" instead of a clean "—"? What wording was changed so significantly that it would be confusing? Can you cite the previous instances of such wording being confusing? —[[User:Proton|Proton]][[User talk:Proton|[talk]]] 21:59, 19 October 2014 (GMT)

:Yes, it is better to have them because it is consistent with the rest of the site, these are the preferred markers. N/A is clear (the plain English part) in what it means, more than a semi-random dash that needs to be interpreted. Many of the individual artifact pages have had questions and/or edits based purely on the misconception and plain ignorance of tempering requirements, mainly for enchanted items where Arcane Blacksmith is needed to temper it, but an additional perk is needed to get the doubling effect of the tempering. Also, the preferred style on those sort of pages is passive, a giving of information, rather than a how-to, as this is better for imparting clear information that doesn't require any interpretation to asses the facts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:23, 19 October 2014 (GMT)
::Thank you for the cohesive response. While I feel that numerical footnotes are superior to obtrusive repeated daggers, I'm not quite motivated enough to do a mass revamp across the wiki, so I'll leave out as is for the meantime.

== Player Speed ==

According to the Race talk page, the people were testing it with the player character, and the height of the character changed the speed. Everything I've heard also points to this being the case. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:56, 20 October 2014 (GMT)

:I didn't get an edit conflict or add it back after your undo (as you can see by my summary). I had a look on the talk page after I added the sentence because I believe that your character does use a "standard" setting (i.e. always at 1), as observed by your character always having the same viewpoint, and that the height number might be a multiplier to your character (which allows for the same view to all races when in dialogue), but lacking the creation kit I cannot test that. The people on the talk page seem to be discussing and using the scale setting rather than a proper test on the height setting, as users Warrior7 and BlackTheAltmerMage make note of. Most of it appears to be guesswork based on observation without test too, with only one I'd class as a proper test, but that method was questioned, so I'd like a proper check on the player's height if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:17, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
::You wouldn't have gotten an edit conflict since you just added to the original version, not really modified it. You would have only gotten a conflict if the sentence that was originally there was changed in some way. I would think this would be fairly easy to test. Just make a character identical in every way except race. Say a male altmer vs a male bosmer. Record how long it takes each to run a straight distance (like the bridge in front of windhelm). If they are the same, then the height doesn't affect speed. If they are different, then it does. To be safe I would drop everything from your inventory for each character, so that every aspect is the same. One of the reasons they were testing the player scale (from what I can gather) is that it is possible that the change isn't affecting speed but the scale itself. So altmer's scale is 1.05, and a bosmer's scale is .95. The scale affects the speed, but the speed multiplier stays at 1.00. I could be wrong though, but I think that's why they were using the player's scale to test it. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 22:38, 20 October 2014 (GMT)
:::That's the way it worked in Oblivion. Rpeh and I tested it fairly thoroughly. All the in-game console commands showed a speed multiplier of 1, but running across the stupidly long bridge in front of the Imperial City, it was very clearly different between the different races. I just tested on the Windhelm bridge with similar results, using the console SetRace command to quickly switch with an otherwise identical character. With a female Altmer, I ran across the bridge in about 23 seconds; with a female Breton, it took 26. (Just read the thread in question...glad to hear we got the same values! I'll try again with "real" characters shortly.) I repeated the test several times with each to be sure. Also, your viewpoint does change between races, though you have to be standing right up against something like a door with a pattern on it to notice. But standing against the Windhelm door, clearly, as a Breton, the center of the screen was lower than as an Altmer. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:56, 21 October 2014 (GMT)
::::Thanks, I don't tend to get that close to things to notice any real difference, and a proper test using the pc rather than simple observation is better. I think that it being the same mechanics in Oblivion is the clincher here, as well as you getting the same results as the only other pc based test. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:24, 21 October 2014 (GMT)

== Civility ==

Please remain [[wikipedia:Civility|civil]]. [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AJeancey&diff=1400142&oldid=1400112 This] kind of behaviour is completely out of line. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 13:57, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:Excuse you me, but an admin has offended me twice, and twice refused to even comprehend the possibility that they are mistaken, despite evidence being proven. Unless you too wish another inquest into [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard#Legoless_de-admin_request|your unacceptable behaviour]], I suggest you implore the other admin to use their common sense and stop avoiding the issue. I am well within my rights to suggest a warning might be in order, no matter who the person is, unless you are suggesting that admins have special privileges? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:08, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::Okay, I am going to jump in here and say that Silencer, your comment could be perceived as uncivil. This reply was also rather rude to Legoless, but I can see your point. I think that the way you suggested the warning was the problem, not the suggestion itself. Overall, I think your words are misinterpreted as mean or harsh, despite that not being your goal. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 14:26, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::My goal is to get a response from Jeancey that is in direct relation to the insults he threw my way, either an apology or a defense of those comments. He has offered nothing except some conceptualized idea of a policy that he believes in, that in no way mitigates the actions he took. The only real surprise is that no admin took it upon themselves to try and silence me earlier, and every attempt at doing so is worthy of a warning itself. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:32, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::What insults did he throw your way? I only skimmed the passage and haven't read previous remarks between the two of you. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 14:38, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::If the insults are so hidden for you, yet you can justify Legoless's unjustifiable comments, then you cannot be trusted as a mediator. He accused me multiple times of breaking multiple policies, something I have never done. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:43, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

{{od}} Jeancey has commented only twice on that topic, and neither post includes any mention of policies, they both just say that he doesn't think the images should be deleted without contacting the user. I understand where you're coming from Silencer, but outrage and accusations will get you nowhere. --[[User:Anil|AN|L]] ([[User talk:Anil|talk]]) 14:48, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:And comments such as ''"here we go again...."'' show exactly the type of people who are unsuitable to hold a neutral position. If you cannot be civil stay off my page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:51, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::{{ec|2}} In that conversation, the only thing I could see as a potential insult was Jeancey saying "It simply isn't okay to delete another users personal images without their consent.". I suspect that you are referencing other conversations, seeing as Jeancey only commented twice in the discussion stated by Legoless. Have you attempted to contact Jeancey directly about your grievances? It is entirely possible that he was not meaning to offend you, like how you don't mean to offend people with what you say. ~ [[User:Dominus Arbitrationis|Ad intellige]] [[User_talk:Dominus Arbitrationis|(talk)]] 14:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::Trying to assume good faith when good faith has been broken is a ridiculous concept, so no, I have no reason to believe Jeancey was not deliberately insulting me. Some editors simply can't stand the truth being told, and have repeatedly tried to stop discussion when they come under scrutiny (I'm looking at you Legoless, trying to hype up a situation to where telling the truth becomes a blockable offense). That sentence is entirely made-up, it is fine to delete user images without telling them, it has been done since before that administrator joined the site, by admins who have had far more experience with the rules and policies Jeancey has misquoted (deliberately or not). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 15:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::An action may be just as much an insult as a statement. Silencer may believe Jeancey insulted his integrity, even if that was not Jeancey's intention, based on Jeancey's [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=File:User-Resonance_Gamer-NelacarCognito.png&curid=185849&diff=1399822&oldid=1396766 edit summary] referencing the deletion policy. I believe Silencer proposed deletion according to the Wikipedia Deletion Policy, Reason 12: "files that are unused or obsolete", which I understand is used ''de facto'' when we do not have our own policy, which we do not on unused images. It should be noted that it was a ''proposed deletion'', emphasis on ''proposition'', and not a ''speed'' request. Anyone is within their right to object to and remove a prod, as policy states. Robin's statement sums this up the best: ''"Proposed deletions really don't have any particular rules governing them other than the fact that nobody has objected to the deletion. I think that makes the case for user images, especially: '''if the user doesn't come back to object to the proposed deletion of an unused image, the image can be deleted'''."''
::::Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist (one way or another), and I believe Silencer was just trying to point out that fact. What should be taken from this is the need to expand and/or revamp the deletion policy. Apologies to you Silencer if I have misinterpreted any of your comments in my attempt at summarising. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 16:12, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::And there we have it, after all the invented hype, someone else notices the thing I pointed out at the very start, "Jeancey referenced an aspect of our deletion policy which does not actually exist". So by looking beyond my name someone else can see that I was in fact correct in pointing out that Jeancey was wrong. Such a pity that it took three talk pages and a visit to the admin board before another user was prepared to say it. I hope you continue to have the courage to state the truth in the future Enodoc. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:46, 27 October 2014 (GMT)
{{od}}I've barely been active for the last few months, and will remain so for the near future, so I'm not getting too involved in this, and I'm not going to say anything except this: Please be careful with how you word things, Silencer. Even a brief glance at that message revealed several snide comments, and I see several more in your responses here. You're playing a dangerous game here, and it's a game that nobody wins. You're a good editor. I know that. We ''all'' know that. You don't have to prove anything to us. We really don't like having to block you or give you warnings or whatever, because that means the policy is being broken, and that's precisely what we ''don't'' want. Even more so because we respect you. To be honest, the reason I got so upset in the big episode a few months ago was because it hurt me to see someone I respected acting so disrespectfully to someone else.
:Please be careful with how you word responses. In several of your conversations above (like [[User talk:The Silencer#Regarding Civil War Forts|this]], [[User talk:The Silencer#Weye|this]], and even [[User talk:The Silencer#Skyrim:Asta|this]]), you've shown you can be civil in dealing with other people. Please continue to do that. This isn't an instruction or order, it's a request from me to you as a fellow editor. I'm not going to make any further responses in this discussion; everything else I can say on the subject, I've already said. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul se onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 02:23, 28 October 2014 (GMT)

== Robin ==

I would like a proper and detailed explanation of this block. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:53, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

== Blocked (2) ==

{{Blocked|1=This account has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki. If you wish to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing Blocks|appeal the block]], you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)}}

Over the last several months, The Silencer has demonstrated repeatedly that he has difficulty being civil. This has been targetted at multiple users including Biffa, Legoless, Jeancey, and others. Offences range from snarky comments to accusations without proof to continued use of the term "lying" when, in fact, there has been nothing more than simple misunderstanding or miscommunication. The wiki is not benefitting from this drama, so I've put an end to it for the next six months. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:56, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:All my accusations have proof, I have yet to be asked to show that proof, rather I have been treated abhorrently by the administrators, including yourself, who would rather block me than see that proof. The claims you make against me are entirely stemmed from the first block I received that was knowingly based on lies (or so-called miscommunication). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:01, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::You were asked to show that proof during your last block. You showed none. Instead, you responded only with vague hand-waving and repeated assertions that you had proof. Proof involves links and quotations from those links, not repetitions of the phrase "I have proof". Even in the discussion about deleting user images, you repeated that you had proof of Jeancey's insulting comments, yet when it was asked for, your only response was to belittle the user who asked for it and still provide none.

::Has Jeancey made mistakes during all this? Sure. As I've said previously, we all do. Administrators are no more infallible than anyone else. Your response to the situation, however, was entirely uncalled for. Rather than trying to resolve it like an adult, you [[User talk:Jeancey#Image deletion|started with impolite]] and degenerated from there. "Jeancey is wrong" may be factual based on what he said, but there were better ways of putting it, like "Jeancey, can you clarify what you meant? I don't see that anywhere in our policies." When Dominus replied, you started with "Well, if you knew our policies...." Again, hardly a civil way to engage in conversation. Your responses after that in that thread alone were nothing short of rude and insulting.

::The thread above, where Legoless asked you to be civil, you again failed to be civil at all. Instead, you tried to turn the discussion to be about him or about the policy rather than dealing with your own civility issue. What's more, instead of acknowledging any impropriety of your own, you instead launched an interaction ban. I'm sorry, but no. The interaction problems here are consistently with you, nobody else. Until you can learn to deal with your civility issues yourself, without making it about anybody else, you're blocked. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:14, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::You asked me for proof after I was blocked with no intention of allowing me to clear my name, it wasn't worth my time explaining anything to you at that time. I provided the proof of Legoless indiscretions on the admin board which he admitted were true but not deliberate, but a lie is "an inaccurate or false statement" so the truth is a lie. Why is a fact uncivil, a fact is neutral, its perception is entirely that of the readers and cannot be attributed to the messenger, so 'Jeancey is wrong' is both factual and civil. Unlike your own unprovable claims about me, I can see that my response to Dominus might be taken that way. My responses after that are in direct reply to an admin who has just made up a policy to justify their actions, if I am to be taken up on incivility for those comments, then that admin should receive the same scrutiny over their false claims. If you need more proof ask for it, before you extend my block. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:36, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::[http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lie 3lie]: "to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive". There was no intent, therefore repeatedly calling people liars is not only inappropriate, but also insulting. As I just said on the AN, if you feel you've been wronged here, by all means, I'm absolutely willing to reconsider my block. Clearly, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&curid=145160&diff=1400213&oldid=1400209 there are people] who feel my block may have been premature, but [[UESPWiki_talk:Etiquette#Condescending Language|just as clearly]], people expect this type of behaviour to be dealt with. Contrary to your belief, I have every intention of allowing you to present whatever proof you feel is relevant. If you want me to overturn my own block, though, you will have to do so on the grounds of how we can improve the situation in the future. Of course, you also have the option to appeal to other administrators or Dave if you feel I'm not being objective.

::::For whatever it's worth, I know what it's like to be on the wrong side of a bad admin or a team of admins who just aren't seeing the problem—I've been there. I don't want to be one of those admins for you, but I also can't let incivility go completely unchallenged and unchecked. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:09, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

:::::[http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/lie #3] here as well "an inaccurate or false statement; a falsehood." You seem to have contradicted yourself. You say you are willing to listen to claims of being wronged here but also state that you won't overturn a block based on those reasons on those grounds. You also say on the admin board you say in regards appealing the block "but at least as far as I'm concerned, it will have to be on the grounds of "This has gotten out of hand. How can we fix it?" rather than "Here's why everyone else but me is wrong, lying, or covering things up."" I'm not entirely sure where I stand with you, as you seem to be ruling out the possibility of me appealing against it on the grounds that it was given, but appealing against it on grounds that it has nothing to do with? Feel free to clarify. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:30, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

::::::<nowiki>#</nowiki>1 at the link you give is how most people perceive the word "lie". That's undoubtedly why it's #1. I don't see my statements as contradictory. If you want me to overturn my own block, then it needs to involve a fix to the civility issue, regardless of whatever other issues there may be. However, only discussing everyone else's wrong-doing, without addressing your own, will not convince me to overturn my block. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:44, 27 October 2014 (GMT)

== Good to see you back! ==

Good to see you back and active again! —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 22:15, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

:Well, someone needs to clear out the maintenance categories, may as well be me. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:23, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

::Ditto. Nice to have you operational again!--[[User:Beezer1029|Beezer1029]] ([[User talk:Beezer1029|talk]]) 22:47, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

:::I'm glad to see you editing again, too! :)  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 23:19, 28 April 2015 (GMT)

::::Welcome back! :) [[User:Holomay|Holomay]] ([[User talk:Holomay|talk]]) 08:09, 29 April 2015 (GMT)

== Thanks ==

Gah! I'm forever forgetting to add categories to pages and images. Thanks for the fix. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:18, 2 May 2015 (GMT)

== Murkmire books ==

Hey, so the murkmire books aren't in game yet, they are data mined. There was a decision to keep them out of more until they are released, which is why they were only in the online namespace. There are a few datamined books we are keeping out of lore for that reason. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:29, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

:All I can find is this message from yourself on the overview page "whenever it gets moved to lore". Also the lore links were left requesting pages. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)
::it wasn't on these books, it happened on another set of datamined books iirc. In any case, I just wanted to let you know, probably should avoid moving any books in the future to lore unless they have a collection listed with a full collection page. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:38, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

:::For reference, the discussion on this is [[User talk:Jeancey#Datamining and Lore|here]] (also see [[User talk:IceFireWarden#Murkmire Lorebooks|here]]), and is based on the guideline of not including pre-release content in lorespace. Although I appreciate you may not have realized that it was only pre-release content, which is my fault because I forgot to mark it as such. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:34, 5 May 2015 (GMT)

== Great Houses membership ==

Hey Silencer! There is a [[Online talk:House Hlaalu|discussion]] on the Great Houses membership. I'd say that while [[Online:Miirist Redoran|Miirist Redoran]] very likely belongs to the House Redoran, judging by her location, I cannot surely say the same about [[Online:Mondran Redoran|Mondran Redoran]], for instance. What are your thoughts on this?  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 19:55, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

:The balance of probability came up favourably. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:23, 9 May 2015 (GMT)

== Creatures Categorization ==

Hey Silencer! This line: <code><nowiki>[[Category:Online-Creatures-Bear| Bear]]</nowiki></code> allows us to place general page [[Online:Bear]] separately from all the individual bears in the category, on top of the list to be specific. Why do you think it is best to get rid of it?  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 18:47, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

:Because it is not proper categorization for that page. Sorting like that is only for pages that relate to but are not exactly part of the category, such as Horses in the Horses category. The page is not about an individual horse, it is about all horses, whereas a page at Horse would not be sorted like that because you can encounter a 'horse' in the game, just like you can encounter a creature simply named 'bear'. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:52, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

:: That would be the case if ''Online:Bear'' contained info about generic bear creatures only, but it also has a list of unique bears. Take [[Online:Dog]] or [[Online:Guar]] pages, for instance, they also have a list of related quests. Since we do not separate ''Online:Dogs'' from ''Online:Dog'', and the category description says ''"This category lists all of the individual dogs"'', I would say it would be better if the page is sorted separately. Let me post link to this discussion to CP and see if somebody else has something to say about it.  ~[[User:Shuryard|Shuryard]] ([[User_talk:Shuryard|talk]]) 20:35, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

::: If an animal can be found it does not get sorted to the top. If only named versions of an animal can be found then becomes a species page which would not properly belong in the category (and in which case the summary box would be removed. I can find a Bear, therefore the Bear properly belongs to that category, alongside all the unique named ones and the variants (eg Black Bear). Just because the pages are currently lacking in information does not mean we categorize them badly.
::: PS. If you want to drag this 'discussion' beyond mere clarification, feel free to start a CP discussion, I don't want people coming to my page for it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:00, 18 May 2015 (GMT)

== Descriptions ==

Yes, it can be transcluded, but ever since I believe Oblivion, but at the very least Skyrim we have been repeating them on the page. Often the lore ones are different from the game ones, and, it prevents issues due to caching. More than that, every single ESO book has (or should have) the description on the page. For that reason alone I am reverting to re-add the description because it makes no sense to have every book but one have the description on the page. Every book should have it. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 20:48, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

:'Often'? I have never observed one that is different so that's some claim, not to mention that allowing different descriptions is just begging for inconsistencies on the wiki. Preventing issues with caching is not an excuse, seeing as we don't attempt that anywhere else. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:57, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
::It happens quite a bit with books from previous games, as many are split into separate parts, or have had sections removed. The main argument is that to change one, you'd have to change hundreds, and having the description on the page doesn't really hurt anything. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 21:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

:::Split books are not the same as the full book so of course they can and likely will have different descriptions, identical books on the other hand have no reason (besides time eg now/then) to have different descriptions. The argument that one page is wrong so they should all be wrong is one of the worst excuses offered, if it means editing 500 pages to correct them I'm sure you'd be the first to do it to increase your edit count. I much preferred the time people found reasons to do productive things rather than found excuses not to. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:47, 19 May 2015 (GMT)
::::Let's take a step back here before this gets out of hand. I don't want this to become another instance of something that gets cited as a reason for another block, so let's please not be too accusatory in our responses. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:06, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

:::::Why don't you take a step back, your involvement is nether desired or warranted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:09, 19 May 2015 (GMT)

==Spelling==
Um, thanks for correcting my spelling... I didn't know if it was correct or not. But I see you have corrected it thank you. :) {{Uns2|00:57, 3 June 2015|99.194.128.55}}

:On Tribunal:Dark Brotherhood? Yes, I changed it back. It was an awkward sentence though so WoahBro edited it to clear up the meaning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:02, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

== Mjoll the lioness ==

I noticed you did an undo on my addition of a hunting bow as default equipment for Mjoll. Your reason was "not by the data". What does that mean? Mjoll clearly uses a hunting bow in the game. Can you explain why you removed that edit? [[User:Luke1138|Luke1138]] ([[User talk:Luke1138|talk]]) 05:41, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:She might be using a bow in your game, but by default, she doesn't own a bow at all. I've verified this in my own game, as well as in the Creation Kit. If she has one in your game, it's either a fluke (somehow she picked one up at some point?) or a mod has added it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::If I recall, don't several followers default to the Hunting Bow, despite it not being in their inventory? I'm sure I have had followers with empty inventories, but when a dragon attacks, they pull out that bow (Xbox). I understand the Giant's Club doesnt actually show in a followers inventory if they pick it up. Same goes for their default armor. Could the bow be an invisible item? --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 18:56, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:::You nailed it, Jimeee! When someone becomes a follower, they have a hunting bow added to their inventory. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:29, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::::I think it's part of a script, to add a hunting bow to a follower. Either way, it's not notewhorty because it's default for all followers. ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] ([[User talk:Dwarfmp|talk]]) 19:36, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

:::::Ah, so I wasn't going crazy! Yeah, some mention is probably more appropriate for the [[Skyrim:Followers]] page. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 20:00, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

::::::Dwarf: it's actually added directly to the alias in the DialogueFollower quest as part of their equipment, so no script is involved.

::::::Jimeee: Done. I'd already added it before catching up on this chain and finding the recommendation to add it. :) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

== Blocked (3) ==

{{blocked|1=This account has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki for one year for persistent abuse of other editors. [[UESPWiki:Etiquette#When_Conflict_Arises|Personal attacks]] (such as [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ALegoless&diff=1455627&oldid=1455626 templating the regulars], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Legoless&diff=prev&oldid=1450908 sarcastic remarks], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=File_talk%3AOn-pc-height_comparison_chart_by_Ziphoblat.jpg&diff=1455617&oldid=1455615 unfounded accusations], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki%3AOblivion_Houses_Redesign_Project&diff=1450909&oldid=1450203 inflammatory remarks], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online_talk%3APeople&diff=1452461&oldid=1452459 insults], and general [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AThe_Silencer&diff=1447591&oldid=1447587 outbursts]) are grounds for an immediate block. No change in attitude has been shown since your previous block, and your contributions have become disruptive to the site. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:23, 26 June 2015 (UTC)}}

== "Non Book"-template ==

Hey Silencer, is the "Non Book"-template a recommended way for providing notes on book pages? For example here - [[ON:Resolutes of Stendarr Note|Resolutes of Stendarr Note]]. I'll start using it then instead of making new paragraphs. There are several books with inconsistent names (or other information that I want to include on the page as a side note). [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 00:48, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

:Yes, it removes the notes from appearing to be part of the text. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:05, 3 July 2016 (UTC)

::Ok, ty! [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 00:15, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

:::Don't forget the dashes ---- to make a line to separate the note. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:53, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

== Empty Pages ==

Regarding [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Purge&curid=172379&diff=1530206&oldid=1521459 this edit] (and similar); is it not the case that a page remains to be considered "empty" if it has no content outside of a template? That is, I thought a page must have at least an opening sentence for it to be considered non-empty. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 16:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

:If it contains content it isn't empty. I would consider the skill descriptions to be content regardless of their placement in a template, and there are other templates to use if it is missing content, including the stub template. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:27, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

::Fair enough, thanks! I was of the opinion that anything in a template didn't count as content. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 21:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

== The "mistakenly added" book/crafting motif collections, a question ==

From [[ON:Dro-m'Athra Style (collection)|Dromothra Style]] page, "This collection has been mistakenly added to the library, the books are not yet available in the game." - Hasn't ZOS been doing that since Thieves Guild though (or even Orsinium?) It seems they are preparing several crafting motifs and plan ahead when these are pushed out. In which case I wonder whether it is a mistake or something deliberate, that the collections have placeholders like this? [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 10:22, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:I haven't been paying attention to thinks like that, but it would seem to be a mistake to reveal the content on the main game (not PTS) before release as it ruins the surprise. And though the other two sets Ebony and Ra Gada had specific chapters named, Dromothra wasn't even fully formed, and as you've pointed put, not even spelt correctly in the Library. If it is determined not to be a mistake about revealing the info, a message about its unavailability is a must to let people know they'll have to wait to complete it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:31, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

::I agree that a note should be there informing that these collections are not available yet :) But I doubt it's a mistake that they're adding these collections before actual release. (Dromothra was just example btw, misspelling is another issue, likely ZOS sloppiness) [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 11:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::In this user's humble opinion, appearance means availability. If the books are in the library, why not add the styles to the crafting stations, I'd like to think if they have the wherewithal and ability to suppress the crafting station (assuming its available for testing on the PTS) they can do it with the library. We should keep an eye out on the next patch to see if the new styles are added to the library before the DLC is available. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:51, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::: We haven't been very diligent in the past with updating the Eidetic Memory in the past so I have no idea how long they've been doing this, but I agree with having a collection page if the list is currently visible on live. We'll need it eventually anyway so no harm done. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 12:01, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::No-ones talking about removing the collection pages, seeing as I created them, what we're discussing is the notice that says they were 'mistakenly' added to the library. The question being if it was a mistake or not. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:08, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::: Ah. Certainly seems like a mistake to be adding lists for unavailable books to live, so I'd agree with the notice. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 12:28, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

{{od}} For me a mistake is something unintended, but well. We seem to agree about that having a note is appropriate, and that the collection pages are fine to have, so it's okay for me to have this wording. I partly asked because I wondered if ZOS had maybe admitted some mistake, which they sometimes do on PTS forums, etc. [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 17:37, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

== Want Some Cheap and Easy Edits? ==

I'm currently working on the ESL card upload, since we have to do that manually. A few new ones are popping up, and some with new designs. I'll try to call those ones out in the description, and I'd be fine if you wanted to swoop in and get the edit out of the way while I'm doing the file uploads. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 21:55, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

:I don't understand what you want me to do, what edits need made? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

::I'm uploading images for [[Legends:Legends|Legends]] cards. Some of the ones I am uploading are new cards, and some have new art. If you were to create the page for the new ones, you would save me the work of going back and doing the same, so it doesn't mess with the rhythm I have going right now. If you don't want to, that's fine, I'll get to it eventually. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 22:07, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

:::Right, new cards without pages, I can do that. I thought you were talking about descriptions like image descriptions so I was lost. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

== Sorry about that... ==

Looks like we both had the same idea at the same time, to start creating those categories... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 23:55, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

:No problem, I was poking my nose in to seem useful, thought I'd clear up some of the redlinks while there was attention on those pages. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:57, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

== Passive Skills ==

Great job with all the icon moves for the passive skills. I'd forgotten that that was even an issue, so didn't think to follow-up with the bot. Now I don't have to! :) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:00, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

:Those came from TRLs skill moves at the start of the month, not from hotbotties updates. Though there were two duplicate pages created, or rather one duplicate and one correctly named page created because the old name hadn't been moved. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:42, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

::Oh, okay. I know the bot altered or added some icon names as well, so I figured those moves were just from that. The one for Combustion was just out-of-date info in the bot. I couldn't fix it last night while the bot was busy, but I just did now. As for duplicates, if you mean Conditioning, Gift of Magnus, or Stealthy, I'm aware of those issues and am discussing them with Dave. If it was something else, can you point me to it, please? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:44, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

:::Keen Eye: Rune Stones/Runestones, I've marked it for a merge, and after a long search in the older edits I finally found the very recent Combustion overlap dealt with. Edit: And maybe if I'd read your whole comment properly I wouldn't have wasted 20 minutes. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:15, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

::::Ah, good catch! I double-checked, and it's been spelled as two words as far back as I could find, and all but one of our links used two words as well, so since you'd merged them already, I just clobbered the bot's version with the merged version and left a redirect (at least for now, so people can see what was done...that can probably be deleted in due time). – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:58, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

{{od}} I just did a dry re-run to see if I've fixed the issue with the overlapping racial skills, and as a result, I caught a number of other corrections you'd made after the bot run. Most of those are now incorporated into the bot job, so they shouldn't happen again. I'm not sure what's going on with [[Online:Shadow Barrier|Shadow Barrier]], though. I take it from your edit summary that the times in the game are all twice what the bot wanted them to be? (And on a side note, it looks like you made a number of corrections to the Active Skills bot run as well...I'll go over those later and see what I can do to avoid them in future runs.) – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:37, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

:Those were influenced by the bonus I had, I don't know why Jeancey didn't revert that one. Unlike before bonuses now actively change the skills wording. If you mean the active skills numbers from the last patch, I wasn't aware of where the numbers were generated from, and an algebraic symbol seemed the best course to display a variable. I haven't really touched active skills as its quite hard to see all three wordings on console. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:55, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

::As for the active skills, I hadn't even looked at the nature of the changes, I just saw a bunch of edits in your history when I was blanking on Shadow Barrier's name and went to remind myself what I was looking for. :) If you didn't actually change any of the active skills because of something the bot did wrong, I won't worry about it then. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:03, 18 August 2016 (UTC)
:::Whoops. I missed one. I was in a little bit of a rush on the end. Sorry about that! [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 22:48, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

== Images ==

Thank you for categorizing all those images.

Sorry about that :( [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 02:45, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

:No bother, though I was putting it off for while given the number. Finally got round to it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:13, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Would you be opposed to me putting your name in to be autopatrolled? Even if you're not fully patrolling any more, I see no reason your edits should have to be manually checked off at this point. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 18:19, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

:I would object. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

== Miraak ==
Little dispute here; I didn't write Miraak wasn't a Nord, but his name isn't really Nordic, it's in the Dragon language, I don't see the problem with noting that. Similar to how Brand-Shei is noted to be a Dunmer with an Argonian name. Also, if your response is "He's a Nord", why not mix Hevnoraak in there without noting it as different? [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 01:55, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

:The name pages are for names given to NPCs or otherwise confirmed. Miraak is a Nord NPC, his dragon priest status is not the same as Hevnoraak's Dragon Priest NPC creature appearance. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer NPC but he was given an Argonian name by his adoptive parents, thus his 'otherwise confirmed' name is noted on the Argonian page but not the Dunmer page. If Miraak was treated the same his name should be moved to the dragon page and noted that he appeared as a Nord. However, there is no reason to do this as it is not a dragon name as the dragon priests typically only have one or two words not three incorporated. The use of another language for a name does not mean that the name itself is not stereotypically of that race. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:22, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

::There are plenty of examples where names rather than the character are noted to be different but still put on the page, even on the Argonian page with J'Ram-Dar, or Irgola(redguard). Yeah if you treated Miraak the same way he wouldn't even be there, but he doesn't fit on the Dragon page either. It doesn't warrant moving him, it warrants a footnote, even if two-word Dragon names are in common use for Nords. It can only help to categorize between the two, similar to how Argonian Cyrodilic names are seperated from the classic Jel ones. [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 13:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

:::The difference with J'Ram-Dar is that there is nothing to confirm that the name is of Khajiit origin, therefore it cannot be placed on the Khajiit page. The difference between Cyrodilic and Jel Argonian names is that they usually have both, or else just a Jel name. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that the dragon priest names are not typical Nord names, considering that the priests conversed with the dragons its hard not to assume that Nords took names from the language of their rulers in the same way a lot of real-world names have their origins in foreign languages. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:40, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

::::I take your point, but it's still worth noting that it has a meaning in the Dragon tongue, even if you assume that there was no stratification between Dragon and Atmoran naming(which I actually find harder to believe as Dragon Priests were the middlemen between the Dragon overlords and the humans). Wouldn't you agree? [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 15:33, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

:::::Translation notes are on all the dragon priest pages. There really isn't the room on the name pages to list the origins of every name, even for just those we know of. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:48, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

::::::All right, well thanks for the explanations, I'll leave it. [[User:Andiy|Andiy]] ([[User talk:Andiy|talk]]) 17:44, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

== Concurrence Removal ==

I get removing the fonts, even though I find it unnecessarily bureaucratic, I can abide by it. But here I see you have [[Skyrim_talk:Imitation_Amnesty#Flawed premise|removed my comment]] as well. Is there something wrong with what I said, those two words? Why did you feel the need to silence what I said, especially when it’s simply an opinion on a Talk Page pertaining to a topic & not an actual Main Namespace change? I’m not vandalizing anything, just talking & asking questions & reporting the bugs I find for others. Are you a sysop here? [[User:Kalarus|Kalarus]] ([[User talk:Kalarus|talk]]) 22:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)
:He moved your post down to a new topic because it would have been a necropost on the old topic otherwise. Your comment is still there :) [[User:Tib|Tib]] ([[User talk:Tib|talk]]) 22:46, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

::I know he moved the Topic down, it was my bad for adding it at the top, but he still removed the comment on [[Skyrim_talk:Imitation_Amnesty#Flawed premise|another section of that page]]. See [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim_talk%3AImitation_Amnesty&diff=1574116&oldid=1574108 here], line 11 which became line 8. [[User:Kalarus|Kalarus]] ([[User talk:Kalarus|talk]]) 22:49, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

:::Your edit fell squarely into the realm of necroposting. Topics more than 3 months, but usually more than 6 months, are deemed to be closed by wiki standards, and should only be added/reopened if you are adding something missing, answering a serious question that has been left unanswered, or to address a misrepresentation in the discussion that could lead to issues if left alone. Simply agreeing with something does not add anything to the discussion, and thats before mentioning that talk pages are for possible improvements to the article. Discussing the rights and wrongs of a topic is for the forums. And no, I'm not a sysop, I just happen to know an awful lot about wiki-standards and am probably one of the least bureaucratic people you will encounter, considering my adopted wiki-motto. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

::::Ah, that makes sense. I totally get it now, I was just wanting for a solid reason for why my comment was removed. Is there a list of rules anywhere here? I’d like to look at them so that I don’t make such mistakes in the future. [[User:Kalarus|Kalarus]] ([[User talk:Kalarus|talk]]) 23:15, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

:::::[[Help:Contents]] contains basic editing information at the top and our standards on layout and so forth at the bottom. [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines]] has some basic standards and links to the most common guidelines, while [[:Category:Policies and Guidelines]] should contain all applicable pages. I thought we had a page on necroposting, but it seems we don't, the wikipedia page generally applies then, which has a standard of anything over 90 days old cannot be reopened (obviously we ignore that to some degree). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:32, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

== Rift aspens ==

I edited the description of a image of the Rift on it's Skyrim page, to say "The Rift's aspen forests" instead of "The Rift's birch forests" which you quickly reverted. I want to clarify that the reason I made the edit is that they are listed by Bethesda themselves as aspens inside the Creation Kit. TreeAspenForest01, TreeAspenForest02, TreeAspenForest03 etc etc. {{Uns2|04:38, 4 December 2016‎|65.33.226.240}}

:I didn't know that, I was going by appearance which to me seem more birch, but clearly they are meant to be aspen given the editor ids. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:18, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

== Thank you ==

Thank you for fixing my uploaded images. I am new to editing. I will try to remember to place future map images in the correct category. I have still not learned the proper coding messages to add text information, but I will get there. Again, thank you. [[User:Dmdbd1970]] 22:57, 7 December 2016

:No problem. You could also have uploaded the new Rihad image over the old one if it had been a png file. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:43, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

== Ribbons ==

Just FYI, while I was doing other stuff to the {{tl|Ribbon}} template, I noticed your attempt to right-align the images and added that functionality to the template (then promptly used it on the doc page). Just thought I'd mention it, since it affects the formatting of your user page (if only slightly). – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User_talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:07, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

:Not having looked at my page in a while, I think they were centered or at least meant to be. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:50, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

== April Fools ==

I did like your companion page, by the way. It was nice enough to convince me to make [[General:April Fools]] so that those past efforts can be found, at least. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:56, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

:After reading the 'news' a number of ideas on expanding the joke came to me so I threw together a quick page. There was talk of a page for them the last time we did one, but no action was taken and they dropped off the radar. There was another April Fools quite a while ago (as in 10 years or more), where a banned user was nominated for Admin, but it was a bad joke playing on a user's self-confessed issues and is probably best left in the back-end of the archives rather than added to the page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

== In case you were wondering ==

Just in case you're wondering why I deleted some of the user categories you prodded but not others, that was a total goof on my part. I'm not about to bring back the ones I accidentally deleted unless there's good reason, but I'll let the rest go through the normal Prod process as they should. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:49, 25 May 2017 (UTC)

== I can't use the sandbox... ==

In the sandbox that you advised me equally appears the same warning trying to do big edits that I received in my own user page (I can't do big edits until I did another 10 edits elsewhere...)--[[User:Tamrié|Tamrié]] ([[User talk:Tamrié|talk]]) 21:20, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

:I didn't realise how new your account was. There is an additional required to the basic account verification which is 4 days. The 10 edits should count in userspace as far as I remember, meaning you are well past that requirement. The "big edits" filter prevents editing, but if you make smaller ones it should at most only ask confirmation or warn you, but you can make the edit by submitting the edit anyway. If there's any other problems let me know. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:38, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

== [[Daggerfall:Places]] ==

Hi The Silencer, thanks to the useful indications as to use always capital letters in the "articles names".

In regard to locations listed in the article, I think that [[Daggerfall:Places]] page must be similar to other games "places" pages (what wasn't the case in the previous text). A list of every distinct "type" of place, links to regions, every important location, specially the settlements or links to other (existing) articles of interest in the "places" category, so exactly the same that other games examples. The article is still a WIP but I don't pretend to "list every place" as you said, in fact not even a 5% of Daggerfall locations will be include in the final version. The 100% of the +4000 "towns" are indeed already included in the Daggerfall regions specific articles, but I only pretend to include quest related places or other interesting/unique places in the case of homes, temples and dungeons sections while only capitals, other major walled cities (that are only a tiny percentage of total settlements, maybe 100 cities) and only some other special relevance towns, in the settlements section, so again '''exactly the same that in other games examples''':

[[Skyrim:places]], list more than 300 specific places, [[Oblivion:Places]] a similar number. Morrowind despite it has by far more places than Oblivion or Skyrim (more than 600 places and +400 individual buildings more, so more than 900 interiors, and even more, distinct interiors, counting multi-level dungeons...) but "only" list in [[Morrowind: Places]] less than 100 different places (only settlements and some few other locations, so less than a 10% of Morrowind places are listed) and provide links to other specific articles. In my current [[Daggerfall:Places]] edition are listed only less than '''60''' specific places (and the regions links). Considering the fact that Daggerfall has many more unique, pre-fixed, designed and handcrafted places (dubious in the "hadcrafted" part) that all other TES main series games + Onine, Redguard, Battlespire, etc, all together, the listing of similar amount of places than Skyrim, Oblivion, or even more, is fully justified. But I repeat, I only already include less places than other games examples and in the final version... maybe a similar number to [[Skyrim:Places]] will be include in places article, not much more.

In regard to Iliac Bay size section, I have two objections:

1. Is not information about Daggerfall places, but map/game world size calculations, wich isn't present in any other ":Places" article. Why must we include that kind of information in this Daggerfall:Places article, when is not included in any other similar article?

2. And most importantly: Is fan-made info (very good, relevant and interesting one, but still fan-made). Isn't possible to arrive to that info by developers declarations, game data info, manuals or using some exploring or editing programs.

In contrast, the totally available demographic info (because is a "easy to count" feature, and because Bethesda offer us construction set/creation kit doing even easier to count that that number, it's at this moment categoryzed as "general" which is basically wrong categorization (direct game info! not fanbase speculation, but totally objective and easily affordable game info, info that even is possible to count playing the games!...). The reason is basically that we lack of a proper category for "Elder Scrolls" info that is very, very different from fan-made art, speculations, studies, development teams, mods, etc. General: is totum revolutum category, don't you think?

But anyways if I understand the uesp working, fan-made info isn't included in specific games articles isn't it?--[[User:Tamrié|Tamrié]] ([[User talk:Tamrié|talk]]) 22:14, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

:I understand that it is a work in progress, but I had some concerns about the direction it was going in. Under Towns-Other large cities-High Rock you have 21 links to the same place, namely Anticlere#Service Locations, and a less concerning 3 links to Abibon-Gora#Service Locations above it. That amount of links to one place, if duplicated would be less than helpful, despite each one having a different displayed name. The pages should be useful and familiar to a Daggerfall player, even if that means not duplicating the likes of Oblivion and Skyrim Places pages. It would be more prudent to compare Daggerfall to Online/ESO when structuring pages. ESO NPCs and Books are devoid of inhabitants, where in Oblivion and Skyrim they list every NPC and every book. The ESO place page duplicates the first section of Skyrim's, but does not attempt to list all places, just the zones which would be the regions in Daggerfall. You do not have to follow that exactly, but it would be a better comparison than Skyrim.
:The modspaces I talked about would be the exact right type of page for that information, but lacking them and lacking the support to create them, the information will have to stay in Daggerfall namespace. There are many "fan-made info" pages like this, including mods such as AndyFall that should not be in that namespace, but your page is technical information and more appropriate, if you compare it to Skyrim and it's mod pages [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]].
:The general demographics page puts together all of the games known demographics, but each game has its own page within its namespace, linked at the top of the demographics page. The general namespace is somewhat of a dumping zone for pages we don't quite know where else to put, but that page has two better locations, Daggerfall or Tes2Mod (when it is eventually created). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:16, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

::Hi,

::1. The Anticlere#Service Locations is a provisional solution because I don't know how to link directly to the specific city in the service location section in the mentioned region pages! In the regional pages (Anticlere, Dragontail Mountains, etc) you can check as every single settlement in these regions (the +3.000...) is listed with its shops, temples or guilds, if we could link directly to the specific city name position in the page (for example to Anticlere#Service Locations+"#Aldshire"? or some other code) all great stores or banks, guilds and temples hotspots in Daggerfall are referenced/linked without doing any new location page (I thought that adding some other 100 or more pages in other largest "service provider" locations similar to capitals pages could be useful for readers, with maps included... ) but at least the link to the services provided in regional pages could be a great step. Anyway wether or no we continue to have all these cities links in Daggerfall:Places or if we move all to "settlements" new page, I need some help anyways with the correct linking that must not to general "Service locations" sections but to the specific city position in these tables in every region article.

::2. My model never was Skyrim/Oblivion complete lists, but Morrowind:Places example.

::In the Online case, there are links to EVERY single location that exist, Do you knowed that? +3.500 "locations" (including buildings) are listed in different types, subtypes and sub-subtypes pages. In Morrowind model on the other hand, we have less than 100 locations linked in the main :Places page, but near all locations (not really, far less inclusive than Online, not single buildings pages, for example...) in different places types pages. ONline categorization is similar to Oblivion/Skyrim (include all) but as the places are many more the editors decide to do it with many sub-categories.

::We have these two possible solutions for Daggerfall:Places, the Morrowind model or the Online model, I will put here the numbers so you can compare the really terrible situation in Daggerfall pages and compare with Morrowind/Online:

::-Currently places listed in places category:

:::Morrowind: +600

:::Daggerfall 204

:::Online: 3775

::-Currently places "types" listed in places main page:

:::Morrowind: 12-18

:::Daggerfall: 9... mostly added by me and whitout page yet.

:::Online: +50 sub-categories

::-Currently specific locations listed in main :Places page:

:::Morrowind: Less than s 10% of places (specially settlements, because services and guilds) listed.

:::Online: No places listed in main :Places page, only types of locations, but ALL locations (+90% because is WIP, but near all) mentioned, linked, categorized or described in minor pages: near 4.000 places!

:::Daggerfall: About 0.4% of all locations listed. +60 places.

::On the other hand, in [[Daggerfall:Daggerfall (Region)|Daggerfall region]] page for example we have already 400 different settlements listed (ALL in that region) in a simple regional page. So it's not something "new".

::I prefer the Morrowind model for Daggerfall, so we could cite some important places (all the main quest related + 150-300 largest, most relevant or unique places, specially all the largest cities -for future adition of the maps!- 300 of 15.000... is not to much) and new subtypes categoriestoo with its own pages, but to include most important places only, not ''every single rock''... as indeed Online category does.

::What do you think?

::3. I will love to help in a TES2mod category, but dude, the Daggerfall places (only the 2-3% more relevant in my model, only the 8% of all towns!!) aren't simply "mod" or hacking material. Not at all. To include information of the marvelous tools that I currently use (Daggerfall Modelling or Daggerfall Imaging from Daggerfall Workshop, far superior to the old ''Daggerfall explorer'' used here in UESP to include all Daggerfall capitals maps... so we can improve a lot the maps), or to include more detailed information about the two biggest Daggerfall "rewrite" projects, and specially the enormous possibilities of new modding with the DaggerfallUnity version could be great, but the Daggerfall:Places need a deep rewrite and to include far more information that the current in the Daggerfall: category, not in "Tes2mod" because has nothing to do with modding but it's basic information that UESP wiki lacks (and only in Daggerfall: case!).--[[User:Tamrié|Tamrié]] ([[User talk:Tamrié|talk]]) 03:28, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

:::The real solution is to make redirects for each linked page, but if they point to the same place it is still not going to be a solution to listing them all on the same page if it can be avoided. I assumed you would be making all the necessary sub-pages to list all locations like Online does. Online numbers are indeed boosted by certain rocks, but every map-marker gets a page. As you are probably aware I lack Daggerfall experience and am now running out of specific advice, but I am glad to know you are aware of the different layouts and styles that are adapted for the necessities of each game. The Mod spaces are not just for mods, they also include technical information, but I wasn't suggesting moving the places page there, just the Dimensions page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:45, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

== Patrolled edits? ==

Hey, I noticed that you didn't seem to have your edits patrolled (I just had to patrol one of your edits on a user's talkspace). After (admittedly hasty) research, I discovered that you're listed neither as a userpatroller, patroller, nor autopatrolled user. Given how frequently you post on the site, is there a reason for this? I know that you were successfully supported as an autopatrolled user a while ago, but don't know if anything's happened since then. [[User:Gelza1|gelza1]][[User_talk:Gelza1|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Gelza1|Cont]] 22:20, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

:Some of the above atrocities might give you some insight into the situation. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:35, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

== Black soul gems ==

Responding to your edit. It may be obvious to an experienced player that you can't use quest items in another quest, but is UESP only
for experienced players? When I first played Oblivion, I got very frustrated on this quest wondering why my black soul gems
were not accepted. I think someone else might too. [[User:Vlad the Imperial|Vlad the Imperial]] ([[User talk:Vlad the Imperial|talk]]) 13:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

:It is not beyond any player to understand the concept of a quest item, ie, that item is only for one specific purpose, and that purpose is not an entirely unrelated quest that requires you leaving the middle of a quest, going past the person you are supposed to deliver the items to in order to leave. Unlike other wikis we trust in the intelligence of our readers and don't treat them like children. We also have a preference for only explaining what is possible, and only including impossibilities where something would be expected to be possible. Following this, you would not expect a quest item to work anywhere else, so the only inclusion of the appropriate page is that the soul gems can be used in enchanting, thus breaking the related quest. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 14:53, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

:: OK, well in that case it doesn't belong on the page for the Cheydenhal recommendation quest either. I'll make the change. [[User:Vlad the Imperial|Vlad the Imperial]] ([[User talk:Vlad the Imperial|talk]]) 15:55, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

== 367 Locations ==

Hi Silencer,

I edited the section on locations found in the 100% completion page, since it is not correct. If you look at the settlements list that it links to, there are only 30 settlements that can be visited that add to the location counter in-game. Also, there are only 7 inns that are not inside cities. Therefore the total location count should be 367. This has been confirmed by many people including twitch.tv/prclive who are doing a 100% completion speedrun of the game. {{Uns2|19:34, 24 July 2017|24.23.192.176}}

:My net had a complete breakdown, only getting back online now when I was about to post my reply 6 hours ago. Well after a lot of counting you are right. Oddly the increase to 369 that I see added 1 to the settlements and forts count (not the inns). On my part I missed the fact that Weynon Priory is excluded from the count. When the count was actually put on the page originally (in 2009) it started as 50 forts and 8 inns. This tallies with the archived discussion on that page which shows that there are 421 fast-travel markers possible, with 40 as the extra daedric gates, and 14 already marked (or otherwise pre-marked) which equals 367 possible locations in one playthrough. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

::Thank you for the response and double checking my count! The runners were really worried about the last 2 locations so we were all going through the wiki and we discovered that the numbers of places didn't match the lists that were linked. I should have been more clear when I made the first edit. Also, it seems like the runners didn't find any other inconsistencies with that page, so otherwise it is accurate! It's really cool to finally have a verification of many of those lists/statistics. {{uns|24.23.192.176|03:40, 25 July 2017‎}}

== Daggerfall leveling and skills link edit. ==

The link does not work on my mobile phone. The way the site parse is the link doesn't allow the page to load at all. I think a direct link would have been better as I just get a browser error that says that this site cannot be reached...

[[User:Chizmad|Chizmad]] ([[User talk:Chizmad|talk]]) 19:02, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

: I think the problem is that the site automatically adds the "m." And the wikipedia site doesnt like it... [[User:Chizmad|Chizmad]] ([[User talk:Chizmad|talk]]) 19:07, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

::The m is not added by our link, it comes from a check by the servers for the device asking for it, which means a link breaking must be a wikipedia issue. However, both links work fine for me, the normal one takes me to the normal page, the mobile link takes me to the mobile version. I don't get that last point, if the automatic addition of an m breaks the link, how does a manual addition, making both urls the same, make it work (which is still wikipedias problem as it is their servers adding it). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

== Ping ==

Advice on [[Tribunal:Assassin]] requested at [[User talk:Darklocq#Dark Brotherhood Assassins]]. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 19:07, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
:I've run into a roadblock, and its name is <samp>mt_save_data</samp>; deets at the thread on my page. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== Forsworn Conspiracy note ==

I added a note recently to The Forsworn Conspiracy article that you later removed, claiming that the information was redundant with both the main walkthrough portion and the "bugs" section. I disagree. The information, as far as I can tell, does not appear at all in the main walkthrough section, which merely states that you can resist arrest and that only going to jail will "advance" to the next quest. The point of the note was to make it clear what happens when you choose to resist arrest in the shrine and, most importantly, that it differs substantially from the usual consequences (new guards do not normally spawn simply as a result of resisting arrest). Additionally, the article currently does not make it even remotely clear that you *cannot* clear the crime you have been framed for using the standard methods that normally apply to removing bounties, which IMO is a highly notable feature of this quest that should be made clear on the quest page. Please reconsider your deletion of the note.

[[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 07:16, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

:The note you added is far too long to simply be clarification on what happens if you don't choose to go to jail, not that it is simply about that. One concession I'll make is that the article could state more forcibly that you should at that point accept going to jail, as anything else will likely screw up Markarth for the rest of your game, and I'll do that now. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:48, 5 September 2017 (UTC)

::I don't know where you get the idea that game mechanics specific to a quest that are quite clearly NOT bugs should be completely absent from that quest's article. Resisting arrest is a perfectly valid choice that can be made in this quest, and the No One Escapes Cidnha Mine quest is completely optional. Unless you dispute the accuracy of my information, I cannot see how you can argue that the article is better off without it. Additionally, submitting to arrest later on always allows you to start No One Escapes Cidnha Mine, as the note made clear. The "screwing up Markarth" you describe is simply the consequence of the guards always trying to arrest you until you submit, which is a choice the player may wish to make. I will re-add the information to the main article if you wish, but I insist that it belongs in the article somewhere. [[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 15:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

:::Yes, choosing to resist arrest is a "valid" option, but when it can create bugs not just with the next "optional" quest, but with many other Markarth quests, it is not an option that should be encouraged or even treated like it is "valid". The option should be documented, but discouraged so that people can avoid such bad bugs. With such bad bugs we have a responsibility to our readers to tell them not just what they can do, but also what they should do. This is why I added the part that you may not be able to come back later and start the next quest, which you inexplicably removed, despite it being a known and serious complication/bug of choosing to resist arrest, which you appear to think will cause no problems whatsoever. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:34, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

::::The intended behavior of the game is that you CAN come back and start the next quest after resisting arrest. If in certain circumstances you cannot, that is a bug, which should of course be documented. As for taking sides about what readers "should" do when presented with an in-game binary choice between two dialogue options, I strongly disagree. There are many ways to play the game, and going on a guard-slaughtering rampage instead of being a quest-completionist is certainly one of them. I will happily concede that a strong warning with "see bugs" is appropriate, so long as the information pertaining to resisting arrest remains in the article somewhere. [[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 16:47, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I was going to add that warning myself, but looking at the article again, it appears that not a single one of the bugs documented in the "bugs" section relates to the consequences of choosing to resist arrest at the shrine. As I have not experienced any bugs with resisting arrest myself (which I have done in each of my four playthroughs with no problems), I cannot add the warning in good faith. Perhaps you can add to the article the bugs you have experienced when taking this path, if you wish to reinstate the warning? [[User:Shashakiro|Shashakiro]] ([[User talk:Shashakiro|talk]]) 16:56, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

== Books Question ==

Hi there. Quick question - should all books be set out like the ones [[Online:A Memory Book, Part 1|here]]? I.e the conten on lore page and added from there? [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:09, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

:Yes, every book with a lore version should have the text on the lore page and transcluded to the game page. There are a number of templates to help with linking and the display of alternative text (where there is more than one game version). There are very few exceptions and they mainly concern those which have so much alternative text that they can almost be considered a different book, but they sometimes get a disambiguated lore page and are transcluded from there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:42, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
::Transcluded. That was the word my pre-coffee brain was searching for! But ok. Because theres quite a few not-transcluded. I can help fix them as I find them, if they should be transcluded. (It would also explain why links on books are supposed to be lore-links. Anyways... thank you![[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 22:00, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Every book that has a lore version should be, but not every book should have a lore version. Most of books I see that don't have a lore version are from the newest additions, because they should not have one created until they are released officially. The basis for having a lore version is to either appear in multiple games, or "contain lore information". An easy way to determine its "value" is if it will be used as a source on another lore page, though that isn't always the case, nor is it always the case that they contain useful information. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:02, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Guardian Trinity ==

Hi Silencer.

Only possible reason to keep the page is for the purposes of linking to it relevantly for Patch notes. I.e. they regularly refer to the Guardian Trinity in a few different patch notes, and as there are three, one cannot properly be linked to correctly? (Unsure if this justifies it or not. Just letting you know why it was created in first place). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 15:23, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

:The patch notes don't need direct links in all cases. If a fix is in place for all three then we just need to note that on the three pages. The patch notes are so unwieldy and so full of misspellings I don't think its all that useful to be trying to link everything anyway. The notes also have less relevance given the nature of the game (i.e. can't play the game without it installed). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 15:32, 4 October 2017 (UTC)

== Orcs ==

Oooh. Ok. Didnt realise. Did Orsimer out of habit. Now I know, I wont do it again. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 00:34, 7 October 2017 (UTC)

== Broken links ==

The speedy deletion request you added to Morrowind:2920, Frostfall messed up a few links transcluded from lore pages. They are the navigation links at the bottom of [[Morrowind:2920, Hearth Fire|Hearth Fire]] and [[Morrowind:2920, Sun's Dusk|Sun's Dusk]], as well as the [[Morrowind:2920, The Last Year of the First Era|compilation page]]. I fixed several others within the Morrowind namespace and made sure the uppercase F was used on the display text.

I'm not sure if you were planning on going back and changing the transclusion code, so I left them alone. You could either undo the speedy deletion request or have more Nst templates. It's probably easier to keep the redirect since Frostfall with a lowercase f is the common spelling. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 07:18, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:It is easier, but pointless given the range of tools we have available to avoid having so many redirects. The only pages that should exist in a namespace are those that appear in the game, and as Frostfall doesn't appear (to the best of my knowledge) it shouldn't exist. I tried to check all the ones I nominated last night, but I obviously missed those links. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Duplicate pages ==

Yeah, I've come across a few of those. For instance - is it necessary to have a page for [[ON:Alanwe|Alanwe]] AND [[ON:Alanwe's Soul|her soul]]? [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 01:13, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:I was concerned with the set pages in that part, this is slightly different. That's the problem with bots though, her soul registers as a separate NPC and so got a page. Usually we have redirects for all names displayed in the game, but some NPC entries in the data are not NPCs (eg Welkynd Stone), and are made by mistake. Delete or redirect, you'd need to know when and how that "name" appears. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:33, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

== Trail ==

People that appear in-game linking to mentioned-only characters (such as hirelings) is correct? [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 20:55, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

:People lists have always been categorized under people, it is the category that is wrong. We've never had a game where we have lots of pages for characters that don't appear, so this hasn't been a problem before. You can see that the same [[:Category:Oblivion-People|Oblivion]] and [[:Category:Skyrim-People|Skyrim]] categories are used for the list pages, not non-appearing characters. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:02, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::Okay :) makes sense. I only change it because I saw it linking somewhere non-sensical. (As it currently is). (And yes, ESO has a few differences.) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:09, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
:::The lists are in effect sub pages of the people page, so it isn't strange to link them there. In the other games all named NPCs are listed on the people page, but some limit needs applied, which might be listing/linking all the subpages instead of displaying them. The mentioned only characters create a bit of a limbo, as the Characters category is used for pages about the players character. A bulky category under "Non-appearing NPCs/People" might have to be used. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:36, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::::Ive made it a [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Mentioned-Only_Characters|Community Discussion]].[[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:54, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== Thanks! ==

Thanks for fixing all the Desolate Mine disambigs. I had a feeling I'd forgotten something! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:50, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

:Well they can only be done after a move anyway. About half of the pages linking there already pointed to the "right" place already. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:06, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Transclusions ==

I just copied them mostly as they were. They can probably be a ''little'' neater. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:52, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:No problem, but they should definitely be using the template. We can convert them over after you move them, it does take quite some time to do that. I'll lay off the "prompts" in the edit summaries though. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:59, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
::No, no. You're right. Only reason I didn't was I suspected that there was missing characters, and was planning to add them in shortly. (Can still do so, so that's okay) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 12:19, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

== Apostrophe Italics ==

I saw that you reverted my change to the italicization of ''The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion'' with an apostrophe s on it. However, the apostrophe s should not be italicized because the title of the game does not have it. If the game were called "The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion's", then we would put italics on the whole thing.

From a quick search, the top three articles argue in favor of this usage. I'll just link the top one from [https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/108370/possessives-of-a-title-in-italics Stack Exchange]. It's the entire reason I create [[Template:'|this template]], and Wikipedia has the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:' same one]. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 23:14, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

:I can't say anything other than that style is disgusting, honestly seeing those examples sent a shiver down my spine. Excluding the 's only draws peoples attention to it, as it immediately did mine when I opened the page and looked at what you had changed, totally negating the purpose of the stylistic formatting (italicising) on the text where it is implemented. Honestly I never realised this is how wikipedia do it as I rarely use it for reading articles, but we've always done things a little different in regards titles of works, but I don't like it and will argue against using it at is just stands out like a drawing pin to the eye. Totally off-topic, would you/could you create a template for a non-breaking space, it would be so helpful with a few templates like Nst when transcluding. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:07, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I edited the template to add a small gap between the word and apostrophe as Wikipedia does. Maybe this will address your concern? I'm kind of surprised it's that big of a deal. The italics indicate what the title should be, so we italicize everything but the apostrophe s. I've seen several attempts to do this before but without the new template, the apostrophe is also italicized and it ends up looking odd. I must say I think italicizing the whole thing looks worse. Tell me what you think of it now with the gap. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 00:51, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I read the wikipedia page and it is almost a necessity to add that small gap so the italicised letters don't spill into the apostrophe, a large part of why it ends up looking so hard on the eye. It does look better with the gap, but not enough to convince me that it's better than including the 's in order the make the whole thing more readable. Just to clarify, I thought you had simply misplaced the italics when inserting the template, I didn't know this was your intention. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:37, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::::So I take it you dislike the style, but you would not be completely against me reverting the page to how I intended? There are so few instances of italicized possessives on the wiki, which is why we never had the template. I think it's for the best if we choose by far the most common italicization method for these few rather than some custom style. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 01:46, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Question: UOP ==

In reference to [[Tes4Mod:Unofficial Oblivion Patch|Unofficial Oblivion Patch]], do you think it would be alright if I updated the current lists of changes? I obviously couldn't even see that the list of the lists was there in the first place, but I'm wondering if doing it incrementally would be alright. The concern being certain portions being out of date, and some not being, and some in between those two states. There is also a lot of weird and inconsistent formatting on all of them which is... irksome. Anyway, let me know when you can. [[User:Syvel|Syvel]] ([[User talk:Syvel|talk]]) 00:31, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

:While there would be nothing inherently wrong with doing that, it will be a fruitless and near impossible task to try and keep those pages up-to-date. If they were in the style of the official patches (just a copy of the fix log listed under its version) then it would be feasible, but the current format doesn't support that, nor is it at all useful for tracing which version of the patch actually makes the fix. Another problem would be categorization of the bugs, which is negated by having the log written as is, and just putting the bugs on the affected/relevant Oblivion pages.
:The pages were created when the patch was supposedly finished, which makes a certain amount of sense, but now they are active again the pages are more of an archive and an anachronism. The link above them is to the fix log posted by the the UOP people, which should be more than enough (it is for Skyrim). So no, as long as the patches are active, and the pages stay in the same format, I see no benefit to updating them with more unwieldy information, not to mention the time it would take to go through the last 9? years of updates and attempt to split them by type. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 03:40, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

== Ryain Direnni ==

I'm trying to find out if (s)he's the Ryan Direnni mentioned in "Once" :)
:Also, sorry for not posting the right image - I didn't find it on full text search. I'm still feeling my way around the place. ~ manavortex 12:22, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

== Pledges ==

Oops. Nice catch! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:54, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

:It was strange, I typed "pledge" into the search box and it displayed "Online:Pledges", so I just speedied the one you created. I went to double-check the Online:Pledges page and it apparently didn't exist, requiring a rapid copy/paste to cover the absence. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:03, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

== Bjorn cave's name ==

Hi, sorry, I should have added this section BEFORE editing again the [[Bloodmoon:Bjorn|Bjorn]]'s page. I'm sorry. Anyway, what I was trying to say is that many Bloodmoon's pages in this Wiki have notes about the fact that Solstheim's names come from north European languages (Norwegian, Danish, etc...). Bjorn is just another one. So, I don't see why that shouldn't be relevant while the others are. --[[User:Giant Lizard|Giant Lizard]] ([[User talk:Giant Lizard|talk]]) 22:24, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

:Relevance has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it translates to something in some random language, relevance is determined by what the translation is and the article. The best examples are some of the Companions in Skyrim, their names translate to various things related to wolves, which is relevant because of their lycanthropy. If the cave in question was occupied by bears instead of hags you would have your relevancy, but there is none, so it does not belong. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:10, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

::Some random language? Most of the names in Solstheim come from north european languages, it's not just "random", it's been a development choice. The bear is one of the animals you can find on Solstheim and one of the main symbols for vikings/nords, it seems pretty relevant, no? Besides, why Bjorn's name is not relevant and [[Bloodmoon:Rimhull|Rimhull]], [[Bloodmoon:Solvjord|Solvjord]], [[Bloodmoon:Fjell|Fjell]], [[Bloodmoon:Frykte|Frykte]] and [[Bloodmoon:Isild River|Isild River]]'s names are? They seem all the same to me: north european words about things related to the cold, used for names. --[[User:Giant Lizard|Giant Lizard]] ([[User talk:Giant Lizard|talk]]) 22:33, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

:::Random is correct, because there is no link between the location and its translation. Etymologies are a contentious addition to any page, they need to show a reason to belong, having a translation is not enough. You seem to be completely missing the point that the relevancy is to the article it is placed on, not the generalization of the the entire addon that Bloodmoon/Solstheim/Nords are Vikings/Scandinavians.
:::Rimhull is an ice cave and translates as frost hole, I am sure even you can see how that is more relevant a translation than between a cave inhabited by hags and the word bear. Isild is at least partially relevant with its ice translation. Frykte has a valid yet subjective argument given that it translates as the idea Fear, for a cave full of dead and undead. Solvjord and Fjell appear to fail the relevancy test, so unless someone can make the arguments for those two, they should be removed.
:::If you want to read more, [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_30#Etymology_removal|this is]] the most relevant discussion, as it determined the current policy towards etymologies, which is retro-active and enforced. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:35, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

::::Ok, thank you for your answer. I still disagree, because I think they are all interesting and relevant facts, but it's just my opinion and I know it's useless. Thank you anyway for your explanation. --[[User:Giant Lizard|Giant Lizard]] ([[User talk:Giant Lizard|talk]]) 00:40, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

== Warhaft ==

Apologies if I am formatting this incorrectly, I'm somewhat new here.
I believe MK's comments are valid, and not "meaningless", this is the only hint Warhaft would have made an appearance in TES4, and it isn't one of his out-there ramblings either. [http://michaelkirkbride.tumblr.com/post/128602974278/excerpt-from-a-tesv-skyrim-design-document-with He has access to the design documents] and he's been at least in limited contact with the guys at BGS.

Thanks, have a good afternoon.
--[[User:Username-72|Username-72]] ([[User talk:Username-72|talk]]) 15:26, 04 March 2018 (UTC)

:MK might retain a unique position in the world of the Elder Scrolls, but he has no special status when it comes to statements that he cannot prove. I don't see anything in those documents that prove his statement or even hint at its truthfulness. Just because he says something does not mean it is or was true, except for those games he was actually involved with as an employee, when he would have had access to sensitive material. Given all that, something being considered to be a part of a game when the game was in development is hardly noteworthy, especially for a game series' 9th game with so much lore to choose from. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

::Thanks for the response, (I only added the tumblr link to show he had "some" access to the design docs and not to say "here's the proof") I do agree that it's a bit silly to argue for something so minor. I'm only asking because I'm curious about how I should approach this in the future, I mean if this is a minor tid-bit and not worth mentioning if there is not direct proof, then what would you say constitutes mentioning. Should we really disregard anything MK or another ex-dev says for "this" kind of thing (undeveloped content in this case), I don't know, maybe we could add some additional text that says it was written by an ex-developer and shouldn't be taken at face-value. I'm not an MK "fanboy" or something of the like either, I just think this is interesting information. --[[User:Username-72|Username-72]] ([[User talk:Username-72|talk]]) 15:26, 04 March 2018 (UTC)

:::Anything by MK is treated the same as any other [[UESPWiki:Lore|Out-of-Game]] source, in that it should really only be used to expand on an existing topic. "Interesting" "facts" found only in OOG are not notable here. Comments by ex-developers can be notable, where their comments can be shown to have truth, and they don't actually need to prove their own statements if someone else or even the game data can do it for them (in the case of the game proving their statement that would be "expanding on an existing topic"). Its impossible to say what is and what isn't notable, it can only really be judged on a case-by-case basis. If you're ever unsure if something is notable it can be better to ask on the talk page first, that way something has a better chance of sticking when/if it is added to the page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:43, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

== "Normal animation behaviour" ==

I just saw you reverting me edit from [[Skyrim:Northwind Summit]]. I added them there because I never encountered them before and I did neither read inside the dragon article nor anywhere else of this bug.
I do understand that it is out of place, but could you at least leave a reference like "Dragons are also affected by the <nowiki>[[Link-to-the-bug|behaviour bug]]</nowiki>"
--[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 02:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:The third note (in the notes section) on the Dragon page is about this. It is not a bug because it is deliberately scripted behaviour, and as it is not unique to any locations or affects the location itself, it doesn't get mentioned on those pages. There isn't anything about this that makes it more notable than any of the listed bugs or issues that affect dragons, and it should be obvious that any issues with dragons would be mentioned on the dragon page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:57, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:: This note does not contain the information I posted. ---[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 21:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::Please, of course it doesn't contain the information you posted because it is a better written version of it that actually addresses the issue and its causes. The issue is extremely well known to those who have played Skyrim since it first came out, just because it is the first time you have noticed it does not make it special or different. Dragons that are killed when not on the ground will continue to fly around/sit on things until the animation kicks in for them to crash land. This can take quite a long time especially if you continue to attack it while it is on top of an object. Just like any other NPC or creature, dragons can be interrupted during their attacks. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:45, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::: Please read what I wrote once again. Even if my words are not the "best written version", I think I expressed clearly that the dragon got stuck '''before''' it was killed. Even if this is "well known", it might not be "well known" to everyone and hence should imho be mentioned in either article clearly. --[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 14:55, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

== Reverting random changes ==

Please don't be ridiculous and revert everything. [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Joining_the_Stormcloaks&diff=1745456&oldid=1648735 The change] was part of my understanding of the [[UESPWiki:Skyrim Quest Redesign Project|Skyrim Quest Redesign Project]]. As far as I understand it says quite clearly that these kind of information belongs into the Notes section, as you can already see in [[Skyrim:Joining the Legion|Joining the Legion]].

Continuous reverting changes without first contacting a person is first of all rude and second of all more destructive then constructive. Please take a look at the first line of [[UESPWiki:Getting_Started|Getting_Started]] and tell me that you also ''always welcome new contributors who are interested in helping to improve the site''.

--[[User:EoD|EoD]] ([[User talk:EoD|talk]]) 21:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:[[Wikipedia:WP:BRD|Bold, revert, discuss]] is a common method of editing a wiki, so Silencer wasn't out of line. That said, I think that's an important piece of information, and I think it's not a bad idea to repeat it in the Notes section. If it's your first time through the quest, it ''can'' be rather jarring to find out you suddenly failed some other quest, and making it easy to find would helpful. As it is, it's kind of buried in the rest of the article. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:09, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

::If this is about Joining the Legion and Joining the Stormcloaks, while it's ostensibly logical, it's definitely worthy of being pointed out in the notes, and probably extracted from the walkthrough itself since it has no bearing on the active quest. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

:::First of all, don't mislabel things to try and get people into trouble. My revert was not random, nor do I revert everything. It is neither rude nor destructive to revert before discussion, and your "offense" at my actions tells me everything I need to know about the type of editor you will be. The edit summary was quite clear why I reverted your edit, the information was already included in it so you were duplicating something because you clearly can not or did not read the article to see it, nor did you bother to check the edit summary to find out if a reason had been left for the revert because you fail to mention it at all in your reply. While the information is "important", it is not important enough to warrant highlighting given it is not the last point at which you can join either side.
:::PS: Joining the Legion is hardly the best example for why the note should remain, given that it does not include the information in the article. If you really want to make a lasting contribution without me ''randomly'' reverting it for no good reason, maybe you should try to bring the Stormcloak version up to the standard of the Legion page, rather than just duplicating the article in the notes section. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:33, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

::::I think Enodoc's suggestion and reasoning are correct, so I've gone ahead and moved the text down to a note.

::::Also, can the two of you watch your tone, please. There's no need for hostility over a few edits that are easily done or undone. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:05, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

:::::Don't tell me to watch my tone when all I did was defend myself against accusations that were not true or accurate. If EoD did not want to have those accusations ripped apart piece-by-piece with no mercy then they should not have been made in such a reckless manner. If EoD cared to have a sensible discussion then my talk page shows that I am more than open to it, if I had been approached in such a way. It doesn't help when senior editors give misleading information about the placement of information, though I ignored it in my reply while also explaining why it isn't even that important a note (to have it mentioned twice). Not only that, but it should be entirely obvious that joining one side would fail the option to join the other, it is only because it is an actual quest that it gets mentioned. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

== System Requirements ==

Good idea turning System Requirements into a redirect! I hadn't thought of that as an option. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 16:37, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
:It's not the first time someone proposed it for deletion (see its talk page), but at that time it wasn't on any other page so the page stayed as it was. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

== Nst/Lore Link Edit ==

Thanks for {{Pl|Lore:2920, Hearth Fire (v9)|diff=1747177&oldid=1747175|this edit}}. Right now, the bot's only picking up Lore Links with embedded Nsts, but I'll do Nsts with embedded Lore Links after. If you notice any others, though, feel free to edit them before the bot and I get there. The more you do, the fewer I have to worry about, and today, I think that's probably a good thing, considering the mess I made of those edits! :-/ – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:59, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

:You may have surmised from my edit summary that I was trying to fix the link the bot made into an Online one back to a Skyrim one, the other just caught my eye. The bot would only have changed it where it was anyway, when it should have been earlier at the first instance of her name. I also wanted to test if the link method would work when the lore link was originally inside the Nst. There are some links on that page that use the ifnamespace magic word, but I couldn't see any easy way to make them use Lore Link. There's no chance of me doing more without knowing where they are, unless you want to run the bot to dump them in a sandbox. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:31, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

::Yeah, I think the SR/ON issue was entirely my fault. The bot's doing a lot more of the heavy lifting now, so there shouldn't be any more mistakes like that. As you point out, the bot certainly wouldn't have spotted that there was an earlier possibility for the link, though. The Lore Link inside Nst will probably only apply to a few. Once I'm done this, I'll get a list to decide if I want to handle those on my own or let the bot do it. Given the range of possibilities there, I suspect I may be doing those on full manual once I have the list. I can't provide you a list right now without interrupting the bot, and there's probably no point in me doing so afterwards, because at that point, it'll really just be one or the other of us doing the same work. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:23, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

:::A bit late, but I finally clued in that I was altering display values in some cases. That should no longer happen once I resume updating. Thank you for being more on the ball than I am today! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:38, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

:::And just to follow up on the Nst/Lore Link combo, I searched the Nst template calls and found plenty of Lore Links as part of other text, but only about two or three were actually convertible to plain Lore Links. I took care of them. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 08:05, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

== Lies By FioFioFio ==

I refuse to allow lies about me go visibly unresponded to. FioFioFio made some false allegations about me in [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FioFioFio&diff=prev&oldid=1803814 this] post on his talk page. My response calling him out on his false accusations and absolutely baseless assertions was removed and the page locked from editing. [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:FioFioFio&diff=prev&oldid=1803816 This] is my response that is apparently so offensive it requires an admin step in and call it an "edit war" (even though no part of the "discussion" came anywhere close to that policy). Clearly telling a Patroller to actually watch recent changes so they can do their job is just too much for people to handle. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:42, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

:You posted to '''her''' talk page after being asked to stop. That's simply in violation of good etiquette. While it may not constitute an edit war in the traditional sense, it is one in the sense that you were asked to stop posting and didn't. Toxic posts like these are not helpful. Take a breath. Go find something else to do for a bit, and come back when you can approach this issue in a more calm and constructive manner. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

::Either "she" takes back her baseless accusations or I get to respond to them. You don't say "stop talking to me" and throw insults in with it and expect not to get a response. Having an admin basically take "her" side by allowing those claims to stand without contention is just as insulting. Why don't you have a go at "her" for making those claims and insults instead of me for trying to defend myself, or should I not expect any less considering she is a patroller, and I am, as I always have been, me. I don't intend to resume this issue unless Fio makes more baseless accusations. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:08, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

:::I didn't take anyone's side (see "[https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/The_Wrong_Version The Wrong Version]"), I simply paused the conversation entirely for 6 hours to give both of you time to calm down. She can't post to her own talk page either, given that it's fully protected. Also, don't assume that nobody's spoken with her. The tone of her responses was mentioned on Discord, which you may not have seen, but they happened nevertheless. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

== Lore Links ==

Oh, awesome! That does indeed make things a lot less complicated. (things then point where they should) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 23:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

== Guard Dialogue ==

Hey, Silencer!

Regarding this [[http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Guard_Dialogue&diff=prev&oldid=1815584]] edit, my extremely rusty wiki skills failed to allow me to check whether or not it was correct. What method did you use to decide it was correct before? --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 19:58, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

:Mostly just gameplay. I never bother with pickpocket until I need the extra pockets perk, but that line is commonly spouted by the guards cause I'm always sneaking about. The definitive answer can't be found on the cs, but it should be discernible on the CK. Because of that I can really only say that pickpocket at level 30 is ''not'' the trigger. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:52, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

::Gah! I had forgotten how complex the CK is. Trying to figure out how to dig through it to verify the dialogue trigger is more than I'm able to do quickly. Thanks for the reply. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 23:12, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

:::I took the coward's way and used "setav" to test it. Looks like it's Pickpocket, and not Sneak, that triggers this dialogue. I reverted back to the earlier version. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 11:36, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

::::Just to confirm, it is indeed Pickpocket, according to the CK. @Xyzzy: Easiest way to get to it in the CK is to use the text search to find "I know your kind", then double-click on the line that pops up. In the window that opens, the correct line is highlighted (though it's easy to miss, being light-gray on white...dunno if that follows the Windows colour scheme, though). Double-click on the line, and the conditions are listed. First one is Pickpocket >= 30. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:28, 15 July 2018 (UTC)

:::::Well, that was ridiculously easy. Thanks, RH! --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 04:10, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

== Template stuff, from a while back ==

Wondered if you'd thought any more about what you said [[User_talk:Darklocq#I was thinking|here]] at "I was thiking ...". I've been off-site for a while, but haven't forgotten or abandoned this stuff. Got sucked into ''Oblivion'', then some Blockchain thing, then some Linux work, then Wikipedia, cycling back around to TES a bit; I have a mod I wanted to finish and release on Nexus, and it joggled me to check my talk here and look for open stuff. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 00:56, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

:I mostly just have ideas for templates and tweaks, but let others do the coding as I wouldn't have a clue how to adapt or write one. If we look at [[SR:Bandit]] and any of the redirects for different named bandits such as Bandit Thug, all those categories are manually added to the page. If we could make a template it would make making and editing those pages much simpler instead of writing out all 9 race categories, 9 race-male categories, 6 (on that page) race-female categories, they could be auto-generated the same way the Non-relevant NPC template does. There are 39 categories on the Bandit Thug redirect, only one of which would not be generated by the template as I envisage it, and even that one could as I don't think there are any that don't come under "Redirects to Broader Subjects". [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:31, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

== L:DB ==

So, on what basis are you claiming that [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore%3ADark_Brotherhood&diff=1745912&oldid=1745908 this material] is "unsubstantiated"? It's all directly from ''Oblivion'', and you've restored a bunch of stuff that now conflicts with what the game actually says. In particular, a problem here is that various in-game books are being treated as accurate, when it's an point of the gameplay that they're dubious, and the game provides contrary evidence as you play it. Maybe I'm simply not integrating the material properly. I mostly work on walkthrough information and spend little time in the Lore namespace, so it's not clear what standards are applying there. I do note that this namespace seems to cite stuff from that Imperial LIbrary site which as a lot of apocryphal material that devs wrote which was never integrated into the game, and thus is less reliable than the in-game data. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 03:00, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
:PS: I previously addressed this in some detail at the Community Portal, though it was in mid-thread on the lore-sourcing overhaul topic. [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Night_Mother|Here's]] a direct anchor-link to the relevant material. The most important bit is that the idea that Severa Magia is a "local" Night Mother (leading to the original research that there must be more of them operating simultaneously, which directly contradicts all in-game and other official and quasi-official information about the DB) is found only in one place: in the player character's own voice in the Journal, at a point during which a) the PC has no knowledge of the DB other than what very little (s)he has been told by someone from the Morag Tong, and b) hasn't even run into any of the DB yet, much less gotten any information from any of them first-hand. It is hardly the only time that the player journal entries record an assumption in the player's head only to have it not turn out true later. Every quest that involves a betrayal/trick, for example, has this feature. The player character is not omniscient and is an unreliable source when confronted with better ones. Same goes for in-game works of fiction and quasi-fiction the intent of which is that they taken with a grain of salt, such as the alleged and possibly forged "interview" with an early Night Mother who claims to have founded the DB, but which conflicts with other in-game materials about the DB's origin and the nature of the first NM. We can't cherry-pick sources, but have to take them as a totality and work out where they are in conflict with each other and what those conflicts mean, given the context of each source (or not-really-source like PC's own in-game assumptions). — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 11:39, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

::You can't contradict something using sources that have absolutely no mention of the thing you are contradicting. There is absolutely nothing anywhere that directly contradicts the situation in the Morrowind game as being wrong. [Edit] While there is nothing that directly contradicts it, we do know it is "wrong" in the sense that she isn't ''the'' Night Mother. If you take this to the talk page of the lore article for the Dark Brotherhood and can provide some other cases where the "player voice" is shown to be unreliable (I don't know Morrowind well enough to know any), and it is accepted there that the source is unreliable, it can be excluded from the lore page. However it cannot be removed from Morrowind pages as that game information exists in its own "bubble" and will always be correct within that bubble. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:02, 28 July 2018 (UTC)

== Whoa, slow your roll there! ==

Do not just delete useful content without a discussion.

You deleted EVERYTHING about getting around the PSVR Cidhna mine bug...but the delete/reinstall is a definite fix, and the bit about the Orc guard IS the vanilla game, there's NO mod ability on PSVR (a platform you apparently know 0 about), I just made a simple typo for god's sake...it's an Orc woman talking to you, not an Orc guard. A simple edit can fix that, not abolishing all the useful information.

As for Braith, yes, the icon is only during a quest, and it can happen to any NPC...so where in the wiki should the information go, that a person you need for a quest may be locked away? Because it's freaking confusing for new players that they're wandering and wandering and can't figure-out why a needed NPC isn't where they're supposed to be.

Got any explanation before I add it all back in?
[[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 18:52, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps the bit about locked-up NPCs belongs in [[Skyrim:Bugs]] --[[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 19:06, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

:Yes, don't blame others for your mistakes, and don't get hostile when you can use nice words to explain how your error led to this. The wording suggested to me that the Orc was one of the three generic guards you submit to (there are no non-men (Nord, Imperial, Breton, Imperial) generic guards anywhere in Skyrim), especially the part where you had to identify her by her race [edit:] when the person you are apparently referring to is named. What she looks like doesn't matter either. Legoless has identified this mystery woman as Urzoga, and killing her is known to break the quest by stopping you from being able to escape the prison, so suggesting killing her as a solution is a terrible idea and only encourages further bugs down the line.
:For Braith, first of all, you should identify which house she was in, that can help others actually see if there is a specific reason or cause for her to be there in the first place. The suspicion here, seeing as it hasn't been encountered with her before, is that it is due to her following you into a house due to another well-known bug. There is no reason for her to be in any house other than her own otherwise. The information is not useful anywhere if she could be anywhere, but would be useful on the quest page if this is in fact a real replicatable bug. The bug as understood is already listed on the glitches page, as the sixth main bullet point under NPC dialogue. It is one of those bugs that is so common that you cannot play a game and not encounter it at some point.
:Finally, you can't confirm your own bugs, which is defined as bugs you add to the page that have had no prior confirmation anywhere else on the wiki that you can point to as the reason you are adding the confirmation. Just because someone somewhere else on the internet reported it doesn't make it confirmed here. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:34, 19 September 2018 (UTC)

::The automated anti-spam system means I'm going to have to break my reply into multiple edits.
::If you'd like to treat new editors badly, make assumptions, and clumsily stomp all over stuff that you know nothing about, don't be surprised when they dislike it. You should stop trying to silence people, and learn some silence yourself. And just what in there was a nasty word, in your expert opinion?
::If you have knowledge, which you clearly didn't in this situation, you can delete or improve something, but if you know nothing about it...and you didn't...then educate yourself before stomping all over it.
::Killing the Orc has apparently worked (I haven't tried it), and it's the only work-around to try for PSVR people who purchased the game digitally. They are unable to install an un-patched version, since they don't have an old game disk. [[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 20:48, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
::>For Braith, first of all, you should identify which house she was in
::Perhaps I will figure that out. Regardless, I will document bugs to whatever level of specificity I feel like getting into. If others want to investigate a bug report, or ask questions, then they can contribute to the bug documentation if they feel like.
::>it is due to her following you into a house due to another well-known bug.
::Of course I know that bug. While she did end up in a house I had been in, I had not initiated any conversation with her, nor had I started the quest yet, and I didn't hear any conversation from her while in there. It's possible she had been talking at me while I was outside, and I hadn't noticed, and her words finished outside, so I heard nothing from her inside. Although I'm nearly certain I went in late, when Braith should not have been on the streets.
::Reply continued in next edit, to avoid triggering the anti-spam filter [[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 20:53, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
::I know no one was in the initial rooms of the house as I began exploring. I only recall eventually seeing the appropriate occupants inside (mother & child). But perhaps Braith teleported deep into the house, and I mistook Braith for being the appropriate child.
::Even if that bug is why she was inside...and it might or might not be...the bug is insufficiently documented. No new player is going to magically figure out that "follow in" might equal "stuck, locked-in, can't get out, can't complete quest started hours later". Perhaps that page needs another category about "Missing/stuck NPCs", so people understand how to further an affected quest.
::>The information is not useful anywhere if she could be anywhere
::The information is critical, if she's not on the street, and never in her own house, then it's critical to know she could be locked away somewhere else (and she was), and that the quest icon can help you find her (and it can), and that you are going to have to break the NPC out. It wasn't until Google revealed about NPCs getting locked-in that I figured-out I had to break in to a stranger's house to let her out. [[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 20:54, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
::killing her is known to break the quest by stopping you from being able to escape the prison, so suggesting killing her as a solution is a terrible idea and only encourages further bugs down the line.
::Again, PSVR is a different build, different bugs. Perhaps some of the Unofficial Patch, which fixes the Urzoga bug, is built in. What I heard so far is that killing her works, and that it's the only solution for digital PSVR purchasers. It's a terrible idea to say that killing her is a terrible idea, when you have no idea. I don't plan to test it myself, but I'm keeping an eye out for further reports about how well it works.
::And "Orc guard" WAS a very appropriate way to refer to Urzoga. She IS an Orc guard. A mercenary paid to be a guard. --[[User:Amusedt|Amusedt]] ([[User talk:Amusedt|talk]]) 17:50, 20 September 2018 (UTC)

:::I apologize for your inability to read my posts, I will try harder. I never said you used nasty words, I said hostile. You are the one who came charging at me for daring to do exactly what you did, edit a page. I only ever respond in the same manner someone talks to me. Had you been calm and explained where I was wrong instead of screaming at me, I would have explained why I did what I did in the same manner. You also asked me for some advice, which you should never ask unless you can at least accept constructive criticism. I read what you wrote, and because you wrote it badly any subsequent edits due to that incorrect wording are entirely your responsibility. You didn't read what I wrote, and while I didn't say it in the edit summary, I did say above ''generic'' Orc guards. Everything you've written about Urzoga is irrelevant to that fact. PSVR Skyrim is not an entirely new build, it uses code from vanilla Skyrim, therefore bugs in Skyrim have a very good chance of appearing in the game. A very good way to check this fact is to select a bug that will always happen (such as Mirmulnir's absent voice, or any of the relevant bugs in Blood on the Ice). Of course some things are different, but they did not rewrite the entire game, and they 100% did not include a single line of code or any bug fixes from the USKP. Any bugs fixed by an official patch or included in another release that are also fixed by the USKP are entirely coincidental. My wording (terrible idea) in the talk pages might be a little over the top, but it is irresponsible to advocate a solution without mentioning the already known "potential" consequences of that "solution". I never said it was inappropriate to describe Urzoga, I only mentioned that using race to identify a person would lead someone to conclude that they didn't have a name you could use instead, which would eliminate any confusion (and why do you continue to identify her by her race and not her name?). In that case telling people to check what the guard looked like before reloading was again irrelevant, as Urzoga will only ever have one look and one race, and reloading depending on that factor is utterly pointless and confusing as a factor.
:::Adding common bugs to pages happens quite a lot, and if you knew about the "other" bug you should have attempted to differentiate the two. Adding a bug that appears exactly the same as the other bug can only lead someone to conclude that you are talking about the other bug. If she can be "anywhere", then a note saying "if you can't find her, she could be anywhere" is not going to be helpful on any level, that is why you need to be specific. Talk all you want about insufficient coverage, all I said was that it was and where it was listed. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]]

== World Eater's Eyrie ==

Nice pruning. Every time I see a notes section I see it like a weed sprouting up in a garden, something to kill mercilessly. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 21:46, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

:Merciless death is too good for it. Potentially endless lists like that are usually pointless and end up being more confusing than helpful, its not as if the two quests are all that long anyway or have much loot unless you take absolutely everything. At least the other endless list has a proper reason for being there (powerful staff, unique mask). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:47, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

== Inquiry about Oblivion Houses Redesign Project ==

On the Oblivion Houses Redesign [[UESPWiki:Oblivion_Houses_Redesign_Project|Project]] both of the project leaders names are stricken through, yours included. The other's user page says simply: Retired. What do the strike-outs mean? Is the project still active? Is it in need of a leader? Who does the checking? Who removes the rewrite notice? It would seem that there are still 202 houses yet to be done and not much progress since 2015, or maybe I'm missing something. I just don't know, so any information would be appreciated.

Thanks, [[User:Kalevala|Kalevala]] ([[User talk:Kalevala|talk]]) 16:24, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

:The other leader is indeed retired. My name was stricken through during the time of the "issues" you can see above, when I was unable to edit, and I haven't felt inclined to be as helpful to other people since. I am still here though, and continue to monitor things as I've always done. The rewrite notice disappears once the parameters are both filled in. The project is more in need of active writers than someone to do the final check at this time. If you want to take a leadership role in the project, I'm not sure of any procedure besides an active leader adding someone, so if you have some examples of pages you have written I will have a look and then decide. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:12, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

::Well you've been very helpful indeed. My worst fear was that the project had been declared extinct, and that further effort on it would be a waste of time. I wrote the table of Residents, the Notes, and the text for all but the very first part (describing its location and names of cells) of [[Oblivion:Summitmist Manor|Summitmist Manor.]] I also rewrote much of the text for [[Oblivion:Heinrich Oaken-Hull's House|the Heinrich Oaken-Hull House]] which had combined two bookcases into one downstairs and omitted a chest upstairs. My biggest problem in doing these was determining the extent of detail. There seems to be no rubric offered on the project page for the degree of detail. As to my leadership, I would prefer just to write descriptions and when I feel a page is ready, submit it here. I am not very good at corralling volunteers or assuaging the egos of those whose work may require vigorous editing. [[User:Kalevala|Kalevala]] ([[User talk:Kalevala|talk]]) 22:39, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

:::No project will die. Existing incomplete projects that have no active leaders can be taken over. The level of detail depends on the location's size, and most house pages would not suffer by including everything. However, that isn't necessary, you can generalize the pure clutter like cutlery. What might be deemed interesting or useful changes per game, eg, in Skyrim food items are useful for cooking, but in Oblivion they are mostly just for eating. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:23, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

== Aethelweald ==

Hi Silencer,

I just wanted to say that Aethelweald is indeed a Redguard last name, it's just that there's no way to directly source it, as far as I know. In Oblivion, Jaren's son, [[Oblivion:Lord Kelvyn|Lord Kelvyn]] is a Redguard, and their relationship is referenced in [[Oblivion:Lord Kelvyn's Will|this]], but it only says the last name in the [[Oblivion:Knightfall|Knightfall]] book which doesn't reference the race. If you can, could you put it back up. Thank you. --[[User:Vincentius1|Vincentius1]] ([[User talk:Vincentius1|talk]]) 19:28, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

:What makes you think that the two Jaren's are the same, I see no link beyond both stories involving a Jaren and a Garridan. However, these are completely different circumstances. Jaren Aethelweald serves Garridan Stalrous, his lord, who dies while Jaren is still in his service. Lord Jaren refers to Garridan as his friend. Lords don't refer to other Lords as their master, nor are they under their service. They might follow them, but they are not bound to them except by choice. I see the [[Lore:Garridan Stalrous|Garridan Stalrous]] lore page assumes that they are the same, so I'd like to take this discussion there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:00, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

== Fame page ==

I don´t know if this is the right place to address the Fame page I edited, but it seems like I was wrong. I double added the Arena quest, not the miscellaneous quests, which erroneously led me to 204 instead of 198 {{Uns2|12:05, 28 November 2018|C0rTeZ48}}
:There's no need to address it if it has been corrected. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:26, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

== Mazoga ==

We've had consistent reports of Mazoga arriving at Rockmilk on Turdas and Undertow on Fredas. Test it for yourself and you will see that this is what happens. I spent quite awhile trying to figure out why it wasn't working, and then had the insight that the day was wrong. No, she's not travelling to these areas after 16 hours are up. She will walk out from White Stallion to Rockmilk on Middas at 2pm, arrive at Rockmilk and return to White Stallion at 6am and sleep until 2pm. On Turdas at 2pm she will leave White Stallion heading North to return to Rockmilk. Then she returns to the White Stallion Lodge at 6am and then sleeps. On Fredas, at 2pm, she will leave White Stallion heaiding South to Undertow, arriving there at about 3:30 PM.

Please test it before reverting. I did and that's how I discovered this error. [[User:BenKenobi|BenKenobi]] ([[User talk:BenKenobi|talk]]) 02:30, 24 December 2018 (UTC)

== Necroposts on talk namespace ==

A wiki isn't a forum and "topics" are not listed chronologically anywhere except in Recent changes, which are by definition limited. Is it really that problematic for you for a new paragraph to be added to a Talk page? --[[Special:Contributions/173.180.86.252|173.180.86.252]] 05:55, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

:It's our wiki's policy to remove responses to posts old enough that the participants are unlikely to ever see the response (see [[Project:Necropost]]). The exception to this is when a post provides new information to a bug or long-standing question, or it provides information that should be included on the page. Also, topics on talk pages are chronological by date of first posting, though updates after that are, of course, not sorted. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:39, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

::{{ec}}A wiki isn't capable of time travel and topics are listed chronologically. This wiki has a much laxer attitude than wikipedia to old topics; anything there is closed after 3 months. Your post was 6 days short of 6 years later, plus it was full of inaccuracies, unfounded speculation, and simply off-topic. None of the original 3 participants has been since October 2013, with the two IPs not making any other contribution beyond that day, so none of them is going to see your reply. The problem with necropostic is that allowing one allows another, spreading a "conversation" over many years, something which neither helps the article in question, or allows others to move on to other issues. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:41, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

== Definition of Favor ==

If the increase in disposition is not the defining factor, what makes a Favor a Favor? --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:44, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

:Most of them have underlying code, however, that isn't always available to see in the cs. The easiest ones to spot are the ones with editor ids, such as [[Skyrim:Favor158|Favor158]], but some of them are not, like [[Skyrim:Favor252|Favor252]]. Erik the Slayer has coding attached which you can see in the cs. I'm not sure what the defining factor is (possibly along the lines of enabling Thaneship), as it was [[User:Morrolan|Morrolan]] who did the work on this 6 years ago, but I do know that disposition increases are not it. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:25, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

::The Thaneship counter for [[SR:Making Friends and Influencing People|Making Friends and Influencing People]] is actually what I'm trying to get a proper list of, as what we currently have on the '''Thane of…''' pages is inconsistent and at least partly incorrect. That is therefore what I was basing this change on – for example, I see nothing in the Erik the Slayer code which is relevant to the Thaneship counter, which is why I don't think it counts as a Favor. If it doesn't affect the counter, and isn't a prerequisite quest for Thaneship, there needs to be something else which makes it a Favor, otherwise it can't be one. Supply and Demand and the Helm of Winterhold quest also don't appear to affect the respective counters, so are not useful for the list I want to create, but I can see why they could be considered Favors under the Thaneship definition since they are prerequisites even without affecting the counter. Dragon's Breath Mead on the other hand does affect the counter for Haafingar, so I don't see why it wouldn't count as a Favor. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 19:19, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

:::Morrolan agrees that the Thaneship counter was the primary condition for counting something as a Favor when that page was written. Since the Thaneship counter is directly defined by disposition (except in Riften), those edits to Erik the Slayer and Dragon's Breath Mead that were based on disposition appear to be valid. Unless you can think of another reason which invalidates them, I shall therefore redo those changes. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:22, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

::::There's a claim on the Erik talk page that Mralki's disposition is increased. I've looked and there is a {{CSList|game=sr|formid=000b2440|list}} of quests with a Favors "filter", which is quite a bit smaller than the list on the page. The bigger problem with using Thaneship is that there are so many quests out there that increase disposition, many of them indirectly (eg adding you to a favourable faction). Unbound, for example, can give you 3 disposition increases, so you need a second defining factor to narrow it down. I think I was maybe a bit wrong in what I thought. If you can narrow down what actually makes a favor a favor, then make any changes you need to. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:38, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

:::::So unsurprisingly it all appears to be very inconsistent. The FavorsNode in CSList doesn't match the Favor\ filter in the CK, and neither of those directly match the ones that are listed as Favors in the Prima Guide. However the ones that overlap between all of them are the ones that have "Favor" in the quest ID. Given that there appears to be nothing obvious in the CK which explains why the rest of the quests under the Favor\ filter are there while other similar Miscellaneous Objectives aren't, I think we are going to have to come up with the final distinction ourselves. Either we completely gut the [[SR:Favors|Favors]] down to only the radiant objectives with Favor in the ID, or we firm up the definition we have to ensure that it's a useful list for [[SR:Making Friends and Influencing People|Making Friends and Influencing People]]. Since the latter is probably more useful and definitely less work, that's what I will go for - meaning the definition will be something like "Favors are [[Skyrim:Miscellaneous Quests|Miscellaneous Objectives]] for citizens of Skyrim which can increase their [[Skyrim:Disposition|Disposition]] towards you, thereby progressing any objective to [[Skyrim:Making Friends and Influencing People|assist the people of a hold]] as part of the quest to become a [[Skyrim:Thane|Thane]] of that hold." --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 18:35, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

== Restore stamina effect and power attacks ==

In article [[Skyrim:Restore_Stamina]] you reversed my deletion on "endless power attacks" with the insignificant 1 pt / second restore stamina effect. I'm pretty sure I'm right because I tried it and the claim is false. {{Uns2|12:49, 19 July 2019|95.174.66.188}}

:It's not a claim, its a tested and verified mechanic. Stamina can go below zero, which is why you only need 1 point of stamina to trigger the effect, with the rest of the cost being "owed". This is, however, overridden by the effect of a restore stamina meal which takes you back to zero and adds one point to your stamina, instead of the usual 5 second delay before stamina starts to restore itself. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:24, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

::I tried it and you're right. I'm an idiot and I'm so sorry for wasting your time. {{uns2|10:11, 29 July 2019 |95.174.66.188}}

== Behaviour ==

Okay, let me spell this out for you in plain English: stop being such a dick! Your behaviour here on the site has been a consistent issue, and it's not something the staff here will put up with for much longer. In short, shape up or we'll ship you out. Is that clear enough? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:18, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

:Excuse me? What exactly is wrong with asking for people to be accurate? My behaviour has never been an issue, only my inability to stay quiet in the face of injustice. If the admins cannot accept being questioned when they are inaccurate in their words or deeds, then that is something they will have fix, which is not achieved by banning the people who question them. You are the one who escalated a perfectly succinct response into a major incident, you are the one assuming huge levels of aggression where none exists. My only thought was to encourage a user to be more accurate, something that will benefit us and them in the future, which has now been blown up to such a degree that you may have scared them off from the site. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:52, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

::If you had stopped at politely asking for accuracy, there wouldn't have been an issue. Telling someone to "put some thought into comparing the actual lines spoken before making any more proposals" isn't asking for accuracy, it's being condescending and rude. As for your behaviour never being an issue, you've been blocked four times in the past by three different people, each time for "intimidating behaviour/harassment". Staff regularly field complaints about your aggressive, if not abusive, behaviour on-wiki. Given what other staff have said in response to this incident, I think it's fair to say that it's only because of your track record of helpful content edits and maintenance that you weren't banned some time ago. So, I suggest you look a little more closely at that behaviour if you think it's never been an issue. We have no qualms about being questioned, or called on inappropriate actions. What we do have qualms with is a user who goes around insulting and berating other users. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:37, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

:::I see, so this has nothing to do with what just transpired, its just an excuse to drag up the past again. The reasons given for my bans in the log are not an accurate portrayal of what occurred. Your count of four blocks isn't accurate, one of the four listings in the log is just changing the settings on the previous one to be more restrictive. You cannot hold any complaint against a person if you haven't taken any action to let the person know that there have been complaints, in order for them to know that they need to change anything (the reason there is an understanding that a user gets 1 "free" edit after a message has been posted on their user page before it can be taken further). It has been over a year since an admin has said anything on this page about behaviour, so to say there are regular complaints about me without going into any detail is just slander as I have no knowledge of them. I have only ever tried to be helpful on this wiki, I have not once deliberately intimidated or harassed another user, I have never tried to stop a person contributing positively to the wiki, and I have never hidden from being held accountable for my actions. There is no rule that says I have to be nice to people, only respectful, and there is nothing to say I have to care about other people's feelings, which is entirely different from being rude. Unless the bar for being rude has descended to absolute zero, then asking nicely (yes, you forgot to quote the Please from the above sentence) for someone to do something that will benefit them is still acceptable. Please remember to assume good faith when reading my words, I don't wish to be banned again. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:48, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

::::I have genuinely valued your contributions to the site for as long as I can remember. I have enjoyed seeing your edits, and I intended to contact you about putting in an RfA, before the first incident that resulted in you receiving a warning. Unfortunately for some years now, there have been conflicts between you and other users. Many users have cited their interactions with you as a reason to avoid the wiki. I believe you when you say you have never done this deliberately, but I have spoken with enough users about this, privately or otherwise, to know it has happened numerous times.
::::I am ending my preexisting neutrality in an attempt to reach a resolution that is beneficial for everyone. However I feel the existing bad blood needs to be addressed and resolved, with the intention of ending the conflict. I want you to be an editor of this site, I'd honestly like for you to be a patroller again someday, and I certainly don't want to see you banned. So in good faith, I am offering to review this situation at length, explore our etiquette policies in-depth, and resolve any and all lingering issues. If you'd like to try this approach to the problem, please just let me know, and we'll work together to achieve a fair and positive resolution. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:10, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

:::::Unless all involved (and active) admins are prepared to apologise for their incorrect behaviour towards me, and remove all bans and warnings from my history, I have no desire to involve myself in resolving their dislike of me, especially when previous attempts at have simply led back to me being warned/banned. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:56, 12 November 2019 (GMT)

== Sigar bug ==

Hey, I was a little confused by [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Sigar&diff=2058362&oldid=2058360 this edit] of yours - just to inform you, it's not already there, the bug listed is about the opposite problem. Regards, --[[User:Ethruvisil|Ethruvisil]] ([[User talk:Ethruvisil|talk]]) 19:53, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

Template talk:History Entry/Doc

2019-11-04T01:54:21Z

The Silencer: /* Recent Change */ reply

== Recent Change ==

The recent change has resulted in huge blank spaces on the Major Events only versions on the timeline pages. See [[Lore:Second Era Major]] for example. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:18, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

:There hasn't been a change to the template in almost 10 years, and it seems unlikely that the change to the document page would have had any effect (much less ''that'' effect). I believe this is actually an issue with how MediaWiki 1.26 handles blank lines vs. templates. I know we've had an issue with other templates, though I'm at a loss as to which one(s) off-hand. Thanks for reporting it, though, I'll see what I can do. It's possible the template calls themselves may need to be rewritten so that there are no blank lines between them. In other words...
:{{Pre|width=auto|<nowiki>...}}{{History Entry
|3E 100|...}}{{History Entry</nowiki>}}
:... and so on. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:43, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

::That does appear to be a solution, though it makes it a huge mess of text if you wanted to edit the entries in the future. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:54, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

Lore:Second Era

2019-11-04T01:52:55Z

The Silencer: small test

{{Lore History Trail}}{{Lore History|evtsw=yes|botline=yes}}
'''Note:''' The Second Era of Tamriel is also commonly referred to as the ''Common Era, CE.''
{{TOCright}}
==First Century==
{{History Entry|2E 1|Beginning of the Second Era.|By decree of Potentate {{Lore Link|Versidue-Shaie}}, year one of the Second Era begins on the first of Morning Star. The marking of the new era commemorates the demise of the {{Lore Link|Reman Dynasty}} and Versidue-Shaie's official assumption of stewardship of the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}.{{ref|name=2920L|{{Cite Book|2920, The Last Year of the First Era}}}}}}

==Second Century==
{{History Entry|2E 101|Earliest mention of the {{Lore Link|Star-Gazers}}.{{ref|name=TUOK|{{Cite Book|The Unearthing of Kardala}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 120|Baroness Viana the Pure becomes ruler of {{Lore Link|Lainlyn}}.{{ref|name=Ghraewaj|{{Cite Book|Ghraewaj}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 148|Baroness Viana the Pure dies.{{ref|name=Ghraewaj}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 182|Reign of Zebiden-jo, {{Lore Link|Mane}} of {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}}.{{ref|name=ONGShazah|[[Online:Shazah|Shazah]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 184|The {{Lore Link|dragon}} {{Lore Link|Grahkrindrog}} is slain.|After perpetrating a great slaughter in {{Lore Link|Winterhold}} and {{Lore Link|Eastmarch}}, the {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} kill the beast in the southern {{Lore Link|Jerall Mountains}}.{{ref|name=AOD|{{Cite Book|Atlas of Dragons}}}}|minor=yes}}

==Third Century==
{{History Entry|2E 227|[[Lore:Tjurhane Fyrre|Tjurhane Fyrre]], the great [[Lore:Ayleids|Ayleid]] sage, dies.{{ref|name=TWE|{{Cite Book|The Wild Elves}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 230|The first [[Lore:Mages Guild|Mages Guild]] is formed.|Sickened by the foolishness of his superiors in the [[Lore:Psijic Order|Psijic Order]], [[Lore:Vanus Galerion|Vanus Galerion]] founds the new guild in [[Lore:Firsthold|Firsthold]].{{ref|name=DFC|Tamriel Timelines, [[Books:The Daggerfall Chronicles|The Daggerfall Chronicles]] — ''Ronald Wartow''}}
* At around this time, a triad of {{Lore Link|Daedric Princes}}—{{Lore Link|Clavicus Vile}}, {{Lore Link|Mephala}} and {{Lore Link|Nocturnal}}—make a deal with the {{Lore Link|Sload|Sea Sload}} K'Tora to acquire the Heart of Transparent Law—the Stone of the {{Lore Link|Crystal Tower}}. K'Tora uses mind magic to make {{Lore Link|Iachesis|Ritemaster Iachesis}}, the leader of the {{Lore Link|Psijic Order}}, steal the Heart. Trying to foil K'Tora's plan, Iachesis makes a deal with Nocturnal to learn a spell with which to hide the Heart in a language that could only be used by mortals. Unbeknownst to all, Iachesis hides the Heart within himself—but soon forgets these events, due to K'Tora's magic.{{ref|name=ESOSummerset|Events of [[Online:Summerset (chapter)|ESO: Summerset]]}} Shortly thereafter, the island of [[Lore:Artaeum|Artaeum]]—home of the Psijic Order—is removed from Nirn by the Order and goes missing.{{ref|name=FOA|{{Cite Book|Fragment: On Artaeum}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 231|The {{Lore Link|Order of the Lamp}}, a knightly order, is formed to protect the newly established Mages Guild.{{ref|name=OOTMG|{{Cite Book|Origin of the Mages Guild}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 283|Potentate Versidue-Shaie declares martial law at the Council of Bardmont.|Following the destruction of his fortress at {{Lore Link|Dawnstar}}, Versidue-Shaie convenes the {{Lore Link|Elder Council}} and declares martial law throughout {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}, warning the rebellious leaders of his vassal kingdoms to disband their private armies or face his wrath. This sparks 37 years of intense conflict, at the end of which Versidue-Shaie's Imperial legions stand victorious as the sole army in the land.{{ref|name=HOTFG|{{Cite Book|History of the Fighters Guild}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 283|An ill-fated Imperial expedition discovers the entrance to the ruins of {{Lore Link|Garlas Malatar}}.|Guided by the writings of the late {{Lore Link|Tjurhane Fyrre}}, an Imperial expedition surveys the surface ruins of the Ayleid city of {{Lore Link|Garlas Malatar}} and uncovers the entrance to the city's depths. The cohort constructs Fort Mistwatch within the ruins to serve as a base while they plunder the city, but soon every member of the expedition is forcibly converted into {{Lore Link|Meridian Purified}} by the guardians of the {{Lore Link|Wrathstone}}. The entrance to Garlas Malatar is once again lost, and the expedition's disappearance remains unexplained until three centuries later.{{ref|name=DOMQ|[[ON:Depths of Malatar|Depths of Malatar]] quest in [[Online:Wrathstone (DLC)|ESO: Wrathstone]]}}{{ref|name=FMMWTDOM|[https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/55643 Face Meridia’s Minions Within the Depths of Malatar] on the official [[Online:Online|ESO]] website}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 284|The [[Redguard:Places#Draggin Tale|Draggin Tale]] tavern on [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] was established.{{ref|Sign outside the Draggin Tale in [[Redguard:Redguard|''Redguard'']].}}|minor=yes}}

==Fourth Century==
{{History Entry|2E 301|The kingdom of [[Lore:Camlorn|Camlorn]] is founded.{{ref|group=nb|[[Lore:Mystery of Talara, v 1|Mystery of Talara, v 1]] states that in 3E 405 there was a millennial celebration of the kingdom's founding, making 2E 301 the year it was actually founded.}}}}{{History Entry|2E 309|The {{Lore Link|Elsweyr|Elsweyr Confederacy}} is founded.|{{Lore Link|Keirgo}} and {{Lore Link|Eshita}}, rulers of the minor kingdoms [[Lore:Anequina|Anequina]] and [[Lore:Pellitine|Pellitine]], marry. The kingdoms are combined to create the province of Elsweyr, sparking a great class war which almost results in outside intervention.{{ref|name=PGE3Sugar|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Sugar and Blood}}}}{{ref|name=PGE1E|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|The Elsweyr Confederacy}}}}{{ref|name=EGTE|{{Cite Book|EGT|Elsweyr}}}}}}{{History Entry|2E 307|The Ghost Harrowing occurs in Stormhaven.|The Menevia Catacombs and Menevia Abbey were abandoned afterwards.{{ref|name=ONloadPariah|[[Online:Pariah Catacombs|Pariah Catacombs]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 309|Reign of {{Lore Link|Rid-Thar-ri'Datta}}, {{Lore Link|Mane}} of {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}}.{{ref|name=PGE1E}}{{ref|name=PGE3Sugar}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 311|Mane Rid-Thar-ri'Datta reveals the Riddle'Thar Epiphany at Rawl'kha Temple.|The revelation marks a key event in modern Khajiiti theology.{{ref|name=ONloadRawl|[[Online:Rawl'kha Temple|Rawl'kha Temple]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 320|{{Lore Link|Dinieras-Ves|Dinieras-Ves, "The Iron"}} founded {{Lore Link|The Syffim}}, the forerunner of the [[Lore:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]].|Since Potentate Versidue-Shaie had destroyed all armies but his own, the Syffim were intended to act as a hired army to suppress brigandage in the provinces.{{ref|name=HOTFG}}}}{{History Entry|2E 321|The {{Lore Link|Guild Act}} is approved.{{ref|name=HOTFG}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 324|Potentate Versidue-Shaie is murdered.|The Potentate is murdered in his palace in {{Lore Link|Senchal}} by the {{Lore Link|Morag Tong}}.{{ref|name=TBOD|{{Cite Book|The Brothers of Darkness}}}}}}{{History Entry|2E 324|{{Lore Link|Savirien-Chorak}} inherits the title of Potentate.|Potentate Savirien-Chorak succeeds his father, Versidue-Shaie. Although noted to be poor administrator who was prone to mishandling the crises that occurred during his reign, Savirien-Chorak is credited with reversing the ban on forming local armies, and accepting {{Lore Link|Orsinium}} into the Empire.{{ref|name=HOTFG}}{{ref|name=HKEAYQ|{{Cite Book|High King Emeric Answers Your Questions}}}}}}{{History Entry|2E 342|King Donel Deleyn of Daggerfall is crowned.|Donel Deleyn, head of the noble House Deleyn, assumes the throne of Daggerfall.{{ref|name=TIEGTTHR|{{Cite Book|The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/High Rock}}}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 358|Earliest known written record of the [[Lore:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]]|A note was found beneath the floorboards of an abandoned house in the [[Lore:Nord|Nord]]ic village of Jallenheim. Depicting a war between two shadowy organizations, scholars speculate that this is a rare piece of evidence of the war between the Morag Tong and its hated offshoot, the Dark Brotherhood. The Brotherhood was probably in existence before this date, but its secrecy shrouds its true origins, though it was most likely formed by several ex-members of the Morag Tong.{{ref|name=FAD|{{Cite Book|Fire and Darkness}}}}}}{{History Entry|2E 360|Earliest known date of a person enlisting the services of the Dark Brotherhood|This reference was found in the journals of Queen [[Lore:Arlimahera|Arlimahera]] of Hegathe.{{ref|name=TBOD}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 369|The {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} end the alliance between the dragon {{Lore Link|Nahfahlaar}} and King {{Lore Link|Casimir II}} of {{Lore Link|Wayrest (kingdom)}}|Although Nahfahlaar loses his protector, he manages to escape slaughter.{{ref|name=AOD}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry|2E 373|The {{Lore Link|Atlas of Dragons}} is written|Brother Mathnan complies an incomplete list of dragons slain by the Dragonguard and Akaviri since the time of the order's founding.{{ref|name=AOD}}|minor=yes}}

==Fifth Century==
{{History Entry|2E 401|King Donel Deleyn of Daggerfall dies.{{ref|name=TIEGTTHR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 401|King Anton I of Daggerfall is crowned.|On 17 Hearthfire, Prince Anton inherits the throne of his father Donel Deleyn, becoming King Anton I of Daggerfall.{{ref|name=JoMS|{{Cite Book|Journal of Magiul Shiana}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 406|Scandal rocks the {{Lore Link|Camoran Dynasty|Camoran}} factions in {{Lore Link|Grahtwood}}.|After it is revealed that the settlement of {{Lore Link|Cormount}} might be the source of dozens of potential heirs, its population is nearly doubled in one week as opportunists, the curious, and the cunning arrive in town. For months thereafter, weddings were a daily occurrence.{{ref|name=TROC|{{Cite Book|The Rise of Cormount}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 408|Queen {{Lore Link|Sylvie}}, mother of King Anton I dies.{{ref|name=JoMS}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 409|King Anton I survives an assassination attempt.{{ref|name=JoMS}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 412|Earliest mention of the name of the Dark Brotherhood.|This reference was found in the journals of the Blood Queen Arlimahera of Hegathe. "...with the help of the [[Lore:Night Mother|Night Mother]] and her Dark Brotherhood, the secret arsenal my family has employed since my grandfather's time." It can be surmised that the Dark Brotherhood was already well organized in 2E 360 if her grandfather truly used them.{{ref|name=TBOD}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 418|{{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}} is born.|Abnur Tharn, the future Chancellor of the {{Lore Link|Elder Council}} is born into the {{Lore Link|Tharn}} family.{{ref|name=CotFC4|{{Cite Book|Chronicles of the Five Companions 4}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 420|The settlement of {{Lore Link|New Joy}} is burned to the ground.|Tensions reach boiling point between the native {{Lore Link|Bosmer}} of Cormount and migrants of New Joy.{{ref|name=TROC}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 425|King Anton I survives a second assassination attempt.{{ref|name=JoMS}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 428|The {{Lore Link|Order of the Silver Dawn}} is founded.|In response to the "{{Lore Link|Curse of the Crimson Moon}}" werewolf crisis in {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, {{Lore Link|Adeliza Silver-Axe}} establishes the order after her beloved son is inflicted with {{Lore Link|Lycanthropy}}.{{ref|name=PJ|{{Cite Book|Purifier's Journal}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 430|Potentate [[Lore:Savirien-Chorak|Savirien-Chorak]] is assassinated, ending the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}.|Savirien-Chorak and all of his heirs are murdered, ending the years of the Akaviri Potentate and the Second Empire of [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]].{{ref|name=TBOD}}{{ref|name=PGE3C|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Cyrodiil}}}}{{ref|name=PGE3V|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Valenwood}}}}{{ref|name=PGE3All|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|All the Eras of Man}}}} Some historians date this event to 2E 431.{{ref|name=PGE1W|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|The Wild Region}}}}
*Orsinium loses the status of an Imperial territory as a result of the death of the last Potentate and the dissolution of the Second Empire.{{ref|name=PGE1W}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 431|{{Lore Link|Skyrim}} splits into Eastern and Western kingdoms.|After High King {{Lore Link|Logrolf}} is assassinated, Jarl {{Lore Link|Svartr}} of {{Lore Link|Solitude}} challenges the legitimacy of Logrolf's heir, {{Lore Link|Freydis}}, and a {{Lore Link|Moot}} is convened. Although Freydis is accepted by the Crown of Verity and named High Queen in {{Lore Link|Windhelm}}, a partial Moot held in Solitude declares Svartr to be High King. From then on, Skyrim is divided into an Eastern kingdom, ruled by the successors of Freydis, and a Western kingdom, ruled by the successors of Svartr.{{ref|name=TCOF|{{Cite Book|The Crown of Freydis}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 431|{{Lore Link|Orsinium}} is sacked by {{Lore Link|Breton}} and {{Lore Link|Redguard}} forces.|After losing its status as an Imperial territory, Orsinium is destroyed for the second time.{{ref|name=TRHOKE|{{Cite Book|The Royal House of King Eamond}}}}{{ref|name=OOS}} Some sources claim it happened the following year.{{ref|name=TFOKR}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 432|The {{Lore Link|Order of the Hour}} is re-established in {{Lore Link|Kvatch}}.|{{Lore Link|Cavor Merula}}, a warrior-priest of {{Lore Link|Akatosh}}, reforms the ancient order in response to the collapse of the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}.{{ref|name=OOTH|{{Cite Book|Order of the Hour (book)}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 434|The {{Lore Link|Pale Watch}} arrive in Wrothgar|King {{Lore Link|Maxevian}} of {{Lore Link|Daggerfall}} sends the Pale Watch into {{Lore Link|Wrothgar}} on a five year mission to ensure the {{Lore Link|Orc}}s never rebuild {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}.{{ref|name=KMO|{{Cite Book|King Maxevian's Orders}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 435|The {{Lore Link|Lamia}} Invasion|The invasion is preceded by a storm that is believed to have originated at {{Lore Link|Tempest Island|the Island of Storms}} off the northwestern coast of {{Lore Link|Valenwood}}.{{ref|name=MC|{{Cite Book|Maormer Correspondence}}}}}}{{History Entry|2E 450|King Anton I of Daggerfall dies.|On 11 Hearthfire, King Anton I's forty-nine year reign ends with his death. He is sealed in a tomb with the spirit of {{Lore Link|Magiul Shiana}}, his former Seneschal, serving as his guardian.{{ref|name=JoMS}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 450|Queen Donella of Daggerfall is crowned.|The daughter of Anton I, Donella, succeeds him to the throne of Daggerfall.{{ref|name=TIEGTTHR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 465|{{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}} becomes Chancellor of {{Lore Link|Elder Council}}|Abnur Tharn heads the Elder Council and serves as the Imperial Battlemage to the Cyrodiilic Empire.{{ref|name=CotFC4}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 467|Jarl {{Lore Link|Hakkvild Yashnag-Slayer}} ends the {{Lore Link|Orc}}ish chiefdom in Skyrim.|The Jarl of {{Lore Link|Falkreath}} defeats {{Lore Link|Yashnag gro-Yazgu}} and his champions in ritual trial by combat, and dissolves his thirty year chiefdom.{{ref|name=OOS|{{Cite Book|Orcs of Skyrim}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 467|The {{Lore Link|Kvatch}} Bread Riots.|The citizens of Kvatch revolt against the priests of the {{Lore Link|Catherdral of Akatosh}} after the red wheat blight devastates their crops for the second year in a row. Before rioters could burn down the city's Cathedral, the {{Lore Link|Order of the Hour}} intervened and slaughtered half of the angry mob. By the next season the blight had run its course.{{ref|name=OOTH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 480|Baz Swordbreaker's brigand army attacks Kvatch|The charismatic {{Lore Link|Orc}} marauder leads his army to Kvatch, but is defeated by the Order of the Hour. The Primate of Kvatch thereafter grants the Order to form into an army during times of religious emergencies.{{ref|name=OOTH}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 486|An Altmeri navy pursues a Maormeri fleet to {{Lore Link|Pyandonea}}.|After a fleet of Maormer ships is sighted off the coast of {{Lore Link|Alinor (city)}}, King {{Lore Link|Hidellith}} orders his navy to give chase. The Altmer follow the Maormer through uncharted waters into an ambush near Pyandonea itself. Only one Altmeri ship survives to return to Alinor.{{ref|name=TMOP|{{Cite Book|The Maormer of Pyandonea}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 489|The {{Lore Link|Blacksap Movement}} in founded {{Lore Link|Grahtwood}}|The Cormount-based cultural organization hopes to formalize the Bosmer approach to the {{Lore Link|Green Pact}}, thereby preventing the misunderstandings that led to burning of New Joy.{{ref|name=TROC}}|minor=yes}}

==Sixth Century==
{{History Entry|2E 515|King Anton II of Daggerfall dies.{{ref|name=TIEGTTHR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 515|King Bergamot of Daggerfall is crowned.|Anton II's nephew and only surviving heir, Bergamot, succeeds him to the throne of Daggerfall.{{ref|name=TIEGTTHR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 521|{{Lore Link|Emeric}} is born.|Emeric, the future King of {{Lore Link|Wayrest (kingdom)}} and leader of the {{Lore Link|Daggerfall Covenant}}, is born to Pierric of Cumberland.{{ref|name=TATOAM|{{Cite Book|Travails and Triumphs of a Monarch}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 522|King {{Lore Link|Hurlburt}} of {{Lore Link|Shornhelm}} is crowned.|King Hurlburt of House Branquette, who led Breton forces at the Battle of Granden Tor, ascends to the throne.{{ref|name=SCCOTN|{{Cite Book|Shornhelm, Crown City of the North}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 532|Prince {{Lore Link|Phylgeon}}, son of King Hurlburt, is born.{{ref|name=SCCOTN}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 536|{{Lore Link|Varen Aquilarios}} is born.{{ref|group=UOL|[[General:Special ZOS Lore Master Interview with Lawrence Schick|Special ZOS Lore Master Interview with Lawrence Schick]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 540|Primate Phrastus of {{Lore Link|Kvatch}} survives an assassination attempt.{{ref|name=OOTH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 541|The {{Lore Link|Reachmen}} invade High Rock.|{{Lore Link|Durcorach|Durcorach the Black Drake}}, Emperor of the {{Lore Link|Empire of Cyrodiil (Interregnum)}} and progenitor of the {{Lore Link|Longhouse Emperors}}, invades the land of the Bretons.{{ref|name=TATOAM}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 541|Chancellor {{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}} discovers the "Scroll of Precursor Saints".|Found in the vaults below the {{Lore Link|White-Gold Tower}}, the scroll supposedly disproved Tharanus Ye Redde-Hand's connection to the Gradual Massacre in the {{Lore Link|First Era}}.{{ref|name=HTON|{{Cite Book|House Tharn of Nibenay}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 542|{{Lore Link|Evermore}} is sacked.|After the death of King {{Lore Link|Heseph}} of {{Lore Link|House Moile}}, the city falls after only three days' siege by {{Lore Link|Durcorach|Durcorach the Black Drake}}. It was retaken by Duke {{Lore Link|Blaise Guimard}}, who was later elected to the throne.{{ref|name=TRHOKE}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 542|The First {{Lore Link|Daggerfall Covenant}} is formed.|After {{Lore Link|Hallin's Stand}} and {{Lore Link|Camlorn}} fell, Durcorach lays siege to {{Lore Link|Wayrest}} for fifty-seven days and nights, but is ultimately slain by {{Lore Link|Emeric}}. The kings of Daggerfall, Camlorn, Shornhelm, Evermore, and Wayrest sign the first Daggerfall Covenant after the victory.{{ref|name=GTTDC}}{{ref|name=TATOAM}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 546|King {{Lore Link|Hurlburt}} of Shornhelm dies, ending his reign.|Prince Phylgeon's inheritance was championed by {{Lore Link|House Montclair}}. {{Lore Link|House Branquette}} and {{Lore Link|Tamrith}} supported his elder half-brother, Prince {{Lore Link|Ranser}}.{{ref|name=SCCOTN}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 546|Prince {{Lore Link|Ranser}} ascends to the throne of {{Lore Link|Shornhelm}}.|The Council of the North meet to consider the claimants to the throne. Through various political machinations, King Hurlburt's illegitimate son wins by a narrow victory.{{ref|name=SCCOTN}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 546|{{Lore Link|Jorunn}} is born.|Jorunn, the future High King of [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]] and leader of the {{Lore Link|Ebonheart Pact}}, is born to Queen Mabjaarn Flame-Hair of [[Lore:Windhelm|Windhelm]].{{ref|name=JTSK|{{Cite Book|Jorunn the Skald-King (book)}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 551|The Bloody Funeral occurs in {{Lore Link|Rivenspire}}.|What started off as an argument at the burial grounds of {{Lore Link|Sanguine Barrows}} erupts into a bloody skirmish between the houses of {{Lore Link|House Tamrith|Tamrith}} and {{Lore Link|House Montclair|Montclair}}.{{ref|name=TBOWM|{{Cite Book|The Barrows of Westmark Moor}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 555|{{Lore Link|Ayrenn}} is born.|Ayrenn, the future Queen of [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Alinor]] and leader of the {{Lore Link|Aldmeri Dominion}}, is born on the 5th of Second Seed to King Hidellith and Kinlady Tuinden of Summerset Isle.{{ref|name=ATUQ|{{Cite Book|Ayrenn – The Unforeseen Queen}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 559|The War of Two Houses.|{{Lore Link|House Hlaalu}} and {{Lore Link|House Dres}} engage in a bloody conflict south of {{Lore Link|Narsis}}. Hlaalu emerges victorious due to the heroics of {{Lore Link|Purilla Falen}}.{{ref|name=WOTH|{{Cite Book|War of Two Houses}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 560|The {{Lore Link|Knahaten Flu}} originates in {{Lore Link|Stormhold}}.|A strain of the Knahaten Flu hits northern-{{Lore Link|Black Marsh}} causing many deaths. The [[Lore:Argonian|Argonian]]s were strangely immune to the flu which has led some to believe that they were responsible for it in some way. The flu continued until around 2E 603.{{ref|name=PGE3A}}{{ref|name=PGE1W}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 561|The Knahaten Flu recorded throughout {{Lore Link|Shadowfen}}.|The settlements of {{Lore Link|Stillrise Village}} and [[Lore:Zuuk (place)|Zuuk]] are wiped out by the plague.{{ref|name=KFC|{{Cite Book|Knahaten Flu Confirmed|ns_base=Online}}}}{{ref|name=DJ|{{Cite Book|Drillk's Journal}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 561|The largest {{Lore Link|orichalcum}} deposit in recorded history is found.|Earl Emeric proposes to use the resulting wealth to enhance Wayrest's fleet and improve trade throughout High Rock.{{ref|name=GTTDC|{{Cite Book|Guide to the Daggerfall Covenant}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 562|{{Lore Link|Orcrest}} and {{Lore Link|Riverhold}} are retaken from the {{Lore Link|Colovia|Colovians}}.|After the Colovians annexed northern {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}}, using the time the Khajiit were too weak due the {{Lore Link|Knahaten Flu}}, {{Lore Link|Namu}}—mother of the {{Lore Link|Lunar Champion|Lunar Champions}} {{Lore Link|Shazah}} and {{Lore Link|Khali}}—and her squad helped in the campaign to retake Orcrest and Riverhold. Namu however died in the fight with General {{Lore Link|Quintilius}}. The exact date of these events might be few years later.{{ref|name=Khali|[[ON:Khali|Khali]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 563|The Voyage of the Crimson Ship occurs.|A vessel filled with [[Lore:Kothringi|Kothringi]] tribesmen fleeing from the Knahaten Flu leaves [[Lore:Black Marsh|Black Marsh]] on 9 First Seed. After spending over a year being turned away from port after port, it sets sail to the west and is never seen again.{{ref|name=DFC}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 563|{{Lore Link|Emeric}} is crowned King of {{Lore Link|Wayrest}}.|Earl Emeric is elevated to the throne and House Cumberland becomes the second royal dynasty of Wayrest after the Knahaten Flu kills the entire {{Lore Link|Gardner}} royal family.{{ref|name=TATOAM}}{{ref|name=GTTDC}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 565|{{Lore Link|Orcrest}} is infested by the {{Lore Link|Knahaten Flu}}.|A team of alchemists, under the lead of {{Lore Link|Ubraz}}—father of the {{Lore Link|Lunar Champion|Lunar Champions}} {{Lore Link|Shazah}} and {{Lore Link|Khali}}, was sent to Orcrest to fight the flu. But the disease proved to be too potent and the entire team died.{{ref|name=Shazah|[[ON:Shazah|Shazah]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 566|{{Lore Link|Ranser's War}} errupts.|Offended that King Emeric refused the hand of his daughter in marriage, King {{Lore Link|Ranser}} launches a surprise siege on Wayrest in Last Seed.{{ref|name=TFOKR}}{{ref|name=SCCOTN}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 567|The Greater {{Lore Link|Daggerfall Covenant}} is formed.|Following the events of Ranser's War, the provinces of {{Lore Link|High Rock}} and {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}} sign the Second Daggerfall Covenant with the Orcs of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}.{{ref|name=TFOKR|{{Cite Book|The Fury of King Ranser}}}}{{ref|name=GTTDC}}. King Emeric grants the Orcs the right to reestablish Orsinium.{{ref|name=TFOKR}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 568|King {{Lore Link|Blaise}} of {{Lore Link|Evermore}} dies.|He is succeeded by his son, King {{Lore Link|Eamond}}.{{ref|name=TRHOKE}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 568|Brother Annulus writes ''{{Lore Link|Annals of the Dragonguard}}''.|The ''Annals'' are a faithful copy of the eponymous record originally written by members of the {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} garrisoned at {{Lore Link|Sky Haven Temple}}, spanning the years {{Year|1E 2800}} to {{Year|1E 2819}}.{{ref|name=AOTDG|{{Cite Book|Annals of the Dragonguard}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 572|The {{Lore Link|Second Akaviri Invasion}}|[[Lore:Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal|Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal]]'s army lands in northeast Skyrim and captures {{Lore Link|Windhelm}}, killing Queen {{Lore Link|Mabjaarn Flame-Hair|Mabjaarn}} and {{Lore Link|Nurnhilde}}. En route to {{Lore Link|Riften}}, Dir-Kamal learned it was protected by forces under Jorunn the Skald-King and {{Lore Link|Wulfharth|Wulfharth the Ash-King}}, and bypassed that city in favor of attacking {{Lore Link|Mournhold}}. Dir-Kamal was then trapped between Jorunn's forces and a {{Lore Link|Dunmer}} army led by {{Lore Link|Almalexia (god)}}; with the timely aid of a phalanx of Argonian troops, they drove the Akaviri invaders into the sea to drown.{{ref|name=JTSK}}}} Another account states that the Akaviri invaders of {{Lore Link|Morrowind}} were wiped out when {{Lore Link|Vivec (god)}} flooded the land.{{ref|name=VOF|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith...}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 572|Jorunn the Skald-King is crowned High King of Skyrim.|Having defeated the Akaviri invaders, Jorunn returns to Windhelm and is crowned High King of Skyrim in the throne room of the Palace of the Kings.{{ref|name=JTSK}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 572|The {{Lore Link|Ebonheart Pact}} is formed.|Following the [[Lore:Second Akaviri Invasion|Second Akaviri Invasion]], the provinces of Morrowind, Skyrim and Black Marsh sign a mutual defensive pact in the city of [[Lore:Ebonheart|Ebonheart]].{{ref|name=GTTEP|{{Cite Book|Guide to the Ebonheart Pact}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 573|Emperor {{Lore Link|Leovic}} commissions the first Emperor's Guide to Tamriel.{{ref|name=EGTAuthorForeword|{{Cite Book|EGT|Author Foreword}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 576|{{Lore Link|Varen's Rebellion}} begins.|{{Lore Link|Leovic}}, the last of a dynasty of {{Lore Link|Reachmen}} known as the {{Lore Link|Longhouse Emperors}}, legalizes Daedra worship throughout the {{Lore Link|Empire of Cyrodiil (Interregnum)}}, immediately sparking a rebellion. {{Lore Link|Varen Aquilarios}}, the Count of {{Lore Link|Kvatch}}, marshals the armies of the Colovian Estates against the emperor.{{Ref|name=COTFC1|{{Cite Book|Chronicles of the Five Companions 1}}}}{{ref|name=PQOTGC|{{Cite Book|Pirate Queen of the Gold Coast}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 576|The Frostfall Coup occurs in {{Lore Link|Rimmen}}.|{{Lore Link|Euraxia Tharn}}'s Imperial forces take control of Rimmen, assassinating the Khajiiti king {{Lore Link|Hemakar}} and his family. Euraxia proclaims herself Queen of Rimmen.{{ref|name=HTON}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 576|Conflict between {{Lore Link|Kvatch}} and {{Lore Link|Anvil}} erupts.|Shortly after {{Lore Link|Carolus Aquilarios}} assumed temporary command of Kvatch, Anvil's Imperial prefect {{Lore Link|Ephrem Benirus}} attempts to seize Varen Aquilarios's property and holdings. Carolus repels several attacks on Kvatch, and severely weakens Anvil's defenses.{{ref|name=TWATD|{{Cite Book|The Wolf and the Dragon}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 577|{{Lore Link|Fortunata ap Dugal}} declares herself governor of {{Lore Link|Anvil}}.|Captain Fortunata takes advantage of the weakened city and deposes the Imperial Prefect with her pirate army.{{ref|name=TWATPQ|{{Cite Book|The Wolf and the Pirate Queen}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 577|Varen's Rebellion ends.|After a bitter war, Varen Aquilarios's forces storm the Imperial City and defeat Emperor Leovic's last remaining legion.{{ref|name=GL|{{Cite Book|Groundskeeper's Letter|ns_base=ON}}}} Varen personally kills Leovic in the Imperial Throne Room and proclaims himself emperor.{{Ref|name=COTFC1}}{{Ref|group=nb|name="Varen's Rebellion"|{{Lore Link|Varen's Rebellion}} is stated in ''{{Lore Link|Pirate Queen of the Gold Coast}}'' to have begun 2E 576 and continued into the following year, but the end-date of the conflict is not explicitly identified in any existing sources. It is known, however, that after Varen Aquilarios was crowned emperor, he and his Companions spent two years (according to {{Lore Link|Lyris Titanborn}}) questing for the {{Lore Link|Amulet of Kings}} before returning to the Imperial City and causing the {{Lore Link|Soulburst}} in {{Year|2E 579}}. Therefore, the end of Varen's Rebellion occurred in 2E 577.}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 577|Emperor Varen Aquilarios leads the {{Lore Link|Five Companions}} on a quest to retrieve the {{Lore Link|Amulet of Kings}}.|Seeking to legitimize his rule, Varen and his allies {{Lore Link|Lyris Titanborn}}, {{Lore Link|Sai Sahan}}, {{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}}, and {{Lore Link|Mannimarco}} embark on a quest for the lost Amulet of Kings, which Mannimarco asserts can be used in a ritual to persuade {{Lore Link|Akatosh}} to make Varen a {{Lore Link|Dragonborn}}. After two years of searching, the Five Companions finally recover the Amulet from {{Lore Link|Sancre Tor}}.{{Ref|name=COTFC1}}{{Ref|group=nb|name="Varen's Rebellion"}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 578|Chancellor {{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}} commissions a revision of the Emperor's Guide to Tamriel.{{ref|name=EGTAuthorForeword}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 578|The {{Lore Link|Soulburst}} occurs.{{ref|group=nb|One source{{ref|name=TATOAM}} suggests Varen's disappearance happened in 578, another{{ref|name=TESO - Story}} cites the Soulburst as occurring in 578, while others{{ref|name=COTFC1}}{{ref|name=IttLoTESO|{{Cite Book|Introduction to the Lore of The Elder Scrolls Online|ns_base=Online}}}} say it occurred in 579.}}|Mannimarco betrays Varen Aquilarios during his attempt to use the Amulet of Kings to become Dragonborn, corrupting the ritual and breaking the ancient covenant with Akatosh that sealed Nirn from Oblivion. An explosion of arcane energy, the Soulburst, causes Varen to vanish, and its mystical aftershocks sweep across Nirn, causing mages to die or go mad, Daedra to appear in greater numbers, and the constellation of the Serpent to dominate the night sky. In the ensuing chaos, the Daedric Prince {{Lore Link|Molag Bal}} deploys Dark Anchors to begin pulling Nirn into his realm of {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}} to merge the two together, a process known as the {{Lore Link|Planemeld}}.{{Ref|name=COTFC1}}{{ref|name=TESO - Story|{{Cite Book|Story of ESO|ns_base=ON}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 579|The {{Lore Link|Gold Coast}} secedes from the Empire|Governor {{Lore Link|Fortunata ap Dugal}}'s pirate army attacks {{Lore Link|Kvatch}}, resulting in what became known as the Gottshaw Massacre. Count {{Lore Link|Carolus Aquilarios}} of {{Lore Link|Anvil}} accepts defeat and agrees to swear fealty to an independent Gold Coast.{{ref|name=TWATPQ}}{{ref|name=OOTH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 579|{{Lore Link|Clivia Tharn}} becomes Empress Regent following the disappearance of Varen Aquilarios.|In her husband's absence, Clivia Tharn assumes regency over the Imperial Throne. Clivia's reign reportedly ushers in a time of "madness, murder, and decay".{{ref|name=TATOAM}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 580|Ayrenn is crowned Queen of [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Alinor]].|After disappearing in 2E 573, Ayrenn was assumed lost and her eldest brother Prince Naemon was named the next heir to the throne. When King Hidellith died and Naemon prepared to assume the throne, Ayrenn returned to Summerset Isle, asserted her prior claim, and was crowned.{{ref|name=ATUQ}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 580|The First {{Lore Link|Aldmeri Dominion}} is formed.|In need of allies following their own internal troubles, the provinces of Elsweyr and Valenwood petition Summerset for aid, and the nations join together to become the Aldmeri Dominion.{{ref|name=TCC|{{Cite Book|The Chorrol Crier}}}}{{ref|name=ATUQ}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 580|The {{Lore Link|Three Banners War}} begins.|The Aldmeri Dominion, Ebonheart Pact and Daggerfall Covenant clash to wrest control of the Ruby Throne from the Empire of Cyrodiil and defend themselves against the Imperials under Molag Bal's influence. The Dominion seeks to reestablish Elven dominance over Tamriel to protect it from the carelessness of the younger races. The Covenant intends to restore the [[Lore:Second Empire|Second Empire]] and return peace and stability to Tamriel. The Pact desires to defeat the Imperials in order to preserve the independence of their homelands.{{ref|name=TESO - Story}}}}{{ref|name=TCC}}
{{History Entry|2E 582|The Five Companions are reformed.|The Five Companions are reformed to stop Molag Bal's Planemeld. Their members include {{Lore Link|Varen Aquilarios}}, {{Lore Link|Sai Sahan}}, {{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}}, {{Lore Link|Lyris Titanborn}}, and the prophesied Soulless One.{{ref|name=ESO}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|2E 582|The {{Lore Link|Mortuum Vivicus}} is destroyed.|The {{Lore Link|Fighters Guild}} successfully destroys the Mortuum Vivicus with the help of their newest Champion.{{ref|name=ESO}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582|The Mages Guild sanctuary of {{Lore Link|Eyevea}} returns to Tamriel.|After nearly a thousand years of being in the {{Lore Link|Shivering Isles}}, the sanctuary of Eyevea is returned to {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} by a Mages Guild Adept with the help of {{Lore Link|Shalidor|Arch-Mage Shalidor}}.{{ref|name=ESO}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582|Daedric plot in the Imperial City foiled.|
During Molag Bal's occupation of the Imperial City, a Dragonguard agent called the {{Lore Link|Drake of Blades}}, with the help of the Soulless One, stops Molag Bal's plot to destroy the {{Lore Link|Sublime Brazier}}, the key to rekindling the Dragonfires.{{ref|name=IC|Events of [[ON:Imperial City (DLC)|Imperial City]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582|Tamrielic invasion of {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}}.|The three alliance leaders meet on the island of {{Lore Link|Stirk}} in neutral territory to discuss a invasion of Coldharbour. After they fail to come to an agreement, they are attacked by the forces of Molag Bal, after which they give their blessings to the Mages and Fighters Guilds spearheading an assault into the Daedric realm. The combined forces of the Guilds charge into Coldharbour led by the Soulless One.{{ref|name=ESO|Events of [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582|The {{Lore Link|Planemeld}} ends.|
The {{Lore Link|Soulless One}} stops the Planemeld, ending Molag Bal's plan to merge {{Lore Link|Nirn}} and {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}} into one nightmarish hellscape.{{ref|name=ESO}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4|The exact years of these events are unknown, but they cannot have taken place before 2E 582. The loremaster of The Elder Scrolls Online, Leamon Tuttle, has stated that ''"time in-game is personal to [the player]. Given that multiple players can play content in any order, we've resisted the push to advance to 2E 583. For that reason, we assume that all events of ESO take place in 2E 582."'' {{ref|name=LT|group=UOL|[https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/bwdb0r/welcome_to_the_elsweyr_update_22_aua/epwvu1a/ Reddit comment by Leamon Tuttle]}}||minor=yes}}|{{Lore Link|Orsinium}} leaves the Daggerfall Covenant.|King {{Lore Link|Kurog}} of Orsinium is slain in late autumn after a failed attempt to unite the Orc clans of [[Lore:Wrothgar|Wrothgar]] under his rule by assassinating clan chiefs who refused to follow {{Lore Link|Trinimac}}. Chief {{Lore Link|Bazrag}} of {{Lore Link|Clan Fharun}} is crowned the new king, restoring worship of {{Lore Link|Malacath}}. Since Orsinium's membership of the Daggerfall Covenant was based on an agreement between Kurog and High King Emeric, Orsinium effectively leaves the Covenant, pending renegotiation.{{ref|group=nb|name=nb5|{{Lore Link|Birds of Wrothgar}} suggests that these events take place in 2E 583.|minor=yes}}{{ref|name=Orsinium|Events of [[ON:Orsinium (DLC)|Orsinium]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|The [[Lore:Thieves Guild|Thieves Guild]] of {{Lore Link|Abah's Landing}} is restored to its former glory.|After a failed heist and the resulting persecution from {{Lore Link|Taneth}}, the Thieves Guild of Abah's Landing is restored to its prime and begins to spread its influence throughout Tamriel.{{ref|name=TG|Events of [[ON:Thieves Guild (DLC)|Thieves Guild]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|Count {{Lore Link|Carolus Aquilarios}} of {{Lore Link|Kvatch}} emerges as the dominant power on the {{Lore Link|Gold Coast}}.|Shielded from the ongoing Alliance War by {{Lore Link|Varen's Wall}}, a ''de facto'' independent Gold Coast sees the end of a power struggle between {{Lore Link|Anvil}}, Kvatch, and the {{Lore Link|Order of the Hour}}. Aquilarios has Governor {{Lore Link|Fortunata ap Dugal}} of Anvil assassinated by the {{Lore Link|Dark Brotherhood}}; facing persecution from the Order of the Hour, the Brotherhood subsequently kills Primate {{Lore Link|Artorius Ponticus}}, stopping him from raising an army against Aquilarios.{{ref|name=DB|Events of [[ON:Dark Brotherhood (DLC)|Dark Brotherhood]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|{{Lore Link|Vvardenfell}} is saved from the machinations of {{Lore Link|Clavicus Vile}} and {{Lore Link|Barbas}}.|Seeking to gain entry to {{Lore Link|Sotha Sil}}'s {{Lore Link|Clockwork City}}, the Daedric Prince and his minion steal the staff Sunna'rah, a tool Sotha Sil had created for experimenting on his power. The staff ends up in the hands of the {{Lore Link|Ashlander}} {{Lore Link|Conoon Chodala}}, who aspired to the title of {{Lore Link|Nerevarine}}. Chodala's use of the staff drains away the power of {{Lore Link|Vivec (god)}}, which weakens the Warrior-Poet's hold over the moonlet {{Lore Link|Baar Dau}} and endangers all of Vvardenfell. Fortunately, the {{Lore Link|Seryn|Champion of Azura}}, a {{Lore Link|Barilzar|clockwork mage}}, and an {{Lore Link|Soulless One|Outlander}} come to Vivec's aid. Chodala is discredited and defeated, Clavicus Vile's plot is thwarted, and Vivec's power is restored.{{ref|name=ESOMW|Events of [[ON:Morrowind|ESO: Morrowind]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|A plot by {{Lore Link|Nocturnal}} to take over the {{Lore Link|Clockwork City}} is foiled.| {{Lore Link|Sotha Sil}}'s Shadow, serving Nocturnal, is summoned and replaces him as ruler of the Clockwork City. At the same time, the {{Lore Link|Blackfeather Court}} enters the city and steals the {{Lore Link|Skeleton Key}}, which has been in the Clockwork God's possession. The {{Lore Link|Soulless One}}, assisted by {{Lore Link|Divayth Fyr}} and the Clockwork Apostles, unveils the plot; but is unable to retake the Skeleton Key before it is taken by Sotha Sil's Shadow. Using the key, Nocturnal and the Shadow attempt to take over the Clockwork City; but are stopped by the Soulless One, Divayth Fyr and a Clockwork Apostle, who save Sotha Sil by defeating his Shadow. Sotha Sil gives the Skeleton Key to Divayth Fyr for safekeeping.{{ref|name=ESOCWC|Events of [[Online:DLC#Clockwork City|ESO: Clockwork City]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|The {{Lore Link|Crystal Tower}} is saved from a triad of {{Lore Link|Daedric Princes}}|The three Daedric Princes {{Lore Link|Clavicus Vile}}, {{Lore Link|Mephala}} and {{Lore Link|Nocturnal}} attempt to execute their plan to take control of the {{Lore Link|Crystal Tower}} on {{Lore Link|Summerset Isle}} using the Heart of Transparent Law, which they had made {{Lore Link|Iachesis|Ritemaster Iachesis}} of the {{Lore Link|Psijic Order}} steal around {{Year|2E 230}}—who had also hidden it from them. After they trick Iachesis to reveal the Heart's location, that being within himself, they kill him; but Nocturnal betrays Clavicus Vile and Mephala by taking the Heart for herself. With it she takes control of the Crystal Tower, hoping to use its properties to achieve omnipresence in the entire {{Lore Link|Aurbis}}. However, her plans are foiled by the {{Lore Link|Soulless One}} and the Psijic Order, assisted by the two betrayed Princes and a champion of {{Lore Link|Meridia}}, and the Heart is returned to the Crystal Tower.{{ref|name=ESOSummerset}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|The {{Lore Link|Remnant of Argon}} is recovered and the Root-Whisper tribe is restored|The {{Lore Link|Soulless One}} aids Cyrodilic Collections in recovering a powerful artifact that contains the spirits of a lost Argonian tribe in {{Lore Link|Murkmire}}.{{ref|name=ESOMurkmire|Events of [[Online:DLC#Murkmire|ESO: Murkmire]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|[[Lore:Sheogorath|Sheogorath]] unleashes various Daedric artifacts onto Cyrodiil|In order to relieve his own boredom at the Three Banners War, the Daedric Prince Sheogorath temporarily claims several artifacts belonging to the other Daedric Princes. He then offers them to the combatants in Cyrodiil to bring upheaval to the ongoing conflict.{{ref|name=ESOChaosMagic|[[Online:Sheogorath|Sheogorath]]'s dialogue in the quest [[Online:Chaos Magic|Chaos Magic]] in [[Online:ESO|ESO]]}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 582 {{ref|group=nb|name=nb4}}|A {{Lore Link|Dragon}} threat is averted in {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}}|The Imperial battlemage {{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn}} accidently unseals the legendary {{Lore Link|Halls of Colossus}} using the {{Lore Link|Wrathstone}}, believing it to contain a powerful weapon. This results in a rage of Dragons—sealed away by the Khajiiti hero {{Lore Link|Khunzar-ri}} in the Merethic Era—being unleashed upon Elsweyr.
*The Dragons form an alliance with {{Lore Link|Euraxia Tharn}}, the ruler of {{Lore Link|Rimmen}}. The alliance is short-lived, as the {{Lore Link|Soulless One}} slays Euraxia, bringing Rimmen back under the control of the Khajiit.
*The Dragons plot to obtain lunar power of {{Lore Link|Jone}} and {{Lore Link|Jode}} using the {{Lore Link|Moon Gate}} of {{Lore Link|Anequina}}. They are stopped after the Soulless One steps into the Plane of Jode, banishing the Dragon leader, {{Lore Link|Kaalgrontiid}}.
*{{Lore Link|Khamira}}, the daughter of King Hemakar, is crowned queen of Rimmen.{{ref|name=ESOEW|Events of [[ON:Elsweyr (chapter)|ESO:Elsweyr]]}}}}

==Seventh Century==
{{History Entry|2E 603|Last documented case of the Knahaten Flu.|Even after the plague passed, non-Argonians tended to avoid Black Marsh out of fear.{{ref|name=DFC}}{{ref|name=PGE3A|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Argonia}}}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|2E 638|The [[Lore:Mages Guild|Mages Guild]] on [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] gets fully chartered.{{ref|name=RGFalicia|[[Redguard:Falicia|Falicia]]'s dialogue in [[Redguard:Redguard|TESA: Redguard]].}}|minor=yes}}

==Eighth Century==
{{History Entry|2E 730|Artaeum returns.|The island of Artaeum reappears, having vanished for 500 years. The Psijic Order returns with the island, but is no longer led by [[Lore:Iachesis|Iachesis]].{{ref|name=FOA}}}}

==Ninth Century==
{{History Entry|2E 803|{{Lore Link|Rangidil Ketil}} is born.{{ref|{{Cite Book|Death Blow of Abernanit}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 812|[[Lore:Rimmen|Rimmen]] secedes from Elsweyr.|Despite ostensibly becoming its own kingdom, Rimmen continues to pay tribute to the Mane of Elsweyr to ensure its independence.{{ref|name=PGE1E}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|2E 828|Probable birth of [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]].{{ref|group=nb|[[Lore:The_Wolf_Queen,_v1|The Wolf Queen, v1]] suggests Tiber Septim was born in {{Year|2E 288}}, but since that would mean he was nearly 650 years old when he died, it seems more likely that Potema was misremembering her lessons. [[Lore:The Arcturian Heresy|The Arcturian Heresy]] states that Tiber was 108 when he died, which places his birth in around {{Year|2E 827}}-{{Year|2E 828|828}}. If Potema simply had the digits in the wrong order, 828 seems more likely.}}}}{{History Entry
|2E 830|The [[Lore:Aldmeri Dominion|Aldmeri Dominion]] is reformed.|The dominion was formed by the realms of [[Lore:Summerset Isles|Summerset Isles]] and [[Lore:Valenwood|Valenwood]] when the heirs of the [[Lore:Camoran Dynasty|Camoran Dynasty]] began to fight over the Valenwood throne.{{ref|name=PGE1Ald|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Aldmeri Dominion}}}}}}{{History Entry
|2E 831|[[Lore:Cyrus|Cyrus]] is born.|Cyrus the Restless, the famous Redguard mercenary, is born in the city of [[Lore:Sentinel|Sentinel]].{{ref|name=Cyrusweb|[[Redguard:Cyrus|Cyrus]]' [http://web.archive.org/web/20041231044103/http://redguard.bethsoft.com/characters/cyrus.html biography on Redguard's old site]}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|2E 852|The [[Lore:Tiber Wars|Tiber Wars]] begin.|Forces led by General Talos, later known as Tiber Septim, begin a series of conflicts that result in the unification of Tamriel under the [[Lore:Third Empire|Third Empire]] and mark the final years of the Second Era.
*The stronghold of [[Lore:Sancre Tor|Sancre Tor]] is captured by Nord-Breton invaders. In the dead of winter, General Talos leads a daring assault against overwhelming odds, retakes the stronghold, and recovers the [[Lore:Amulet of Kings|Amulet of Kings]] from the Tomb of [[Lore:Reman III|Reman III]] below Sancre Tor.{{ref|name=BOST|{{Cite Book|Battle of Sancre Tor}}}}{{ref|name=TLST|{{Cite Book|The Legendary Sancre Tor}}}}}}{{History Entry
|2E 854|[[Lore:Cuhlecain|Cuhlecain]] is assassinated.|The King of the Colovian Estates is assassinated by a [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]] nightblade, just before his coronation as the Emperor. The assassin also burns the Imperial Palace to the ground and attempts to kill General Talos, who is crowned in Cuchlecain's stead as [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]].{{ref|name=PGE1C|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Cyrodiil}}}}}}{{History Entry
|2E 862|[[Lore:Thassad II|Thassad II]] dies.|The High King of [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]], Thassad II, dies from natural causes, being considerably ill and old at the time of his death. After his death, the leader of the [[Lore:Forebears|Forebears]], Baron [[Lore:Volag|Volag]], starts a revolution to reinstate the republic.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}}}}
{{History Entry|2E 862|The War of {{Lore Link|Rihad}} occurs.|For a short time, the Colovian armies had utilized Wood Elf archers.{{Ref|name=PGE1Ald}}}}{{History Entry|2E 864|The [[Lore:Battle of Hunding Bay|Battle of Hunding Bay]].|Crown Prince [[Lore:A'tor|A'tor]], son of Thassad II, heir to Hammerfell and leader of the [[Lore:Crowns|Crowns]], leads his forces in continual victory over the Forebears. Desperate, the Forbears ask Tiber Septim for help, who sends his forces led by Lord Admiral [[Lore:Amiel Richton|Amiel Richton]], who destroys the Crown forces at the harbor of [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]].{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}}}{{History Entry
|2E 864|The Dwarven Reclamation Act is passed| Giving the Imperial Archaeological Society free reign of Dwarven ruins.{{ref|name=RedNT|{{Cite Book|No Trespassing|ns_base=Redguard}}}}
|2E 864|The first edition of the [[Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition|Pocket Guide to the Empire]] is published.|At the request of [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]], this heavily-biased guide is published under the authority of the [[Lore:Imperial Geographical Society|Imperial Geographical Society]].{{ref|name=PGE1P|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Prologue}}}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|2E 864|The [[Lore:Stros M'Kai Uprising|Stros M'Kai Uprising]].|The date of the Redguard rebellion on the island of [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] off the coast of Hammerfell. The [[Lore:Restless League|Restless League]], led by siblings Cyrus and [[Lore:Iszara|Iszara]], destroys the Imperial fleet in the harbor of [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] and defeats the small contingent of the [[Lore:Imperial Legion|Imperial Legion]] stationed on the island.{{ref|name=Redguard|Events of [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]]}}
*Lord Amiel Richton, Provisional Governor of Stros M'Kai, dies at the hands of Cyrus, wielding a sword enchanted with the soul of Crown Prince A'tor.{{ref|name=Redguard}}
*Baron Volag comes out of hiding and retakes the Forebear city of Sentinel. Following the two uprisings, Emperor Tiber Septim is forced to sign a [[Lore:First Treaty of Stros M'Kai|peace treaty]] on terms more favorable to Hammerfell.{{ref|name=Redguard}}}}{{History Entry
|2E 865|[[Lore:Symmachus|Symmachus]] is born.|Symmachus, future general of the Imperial Legion and husband to Queen [[Lore:Barenziah|Barenziah]], is born.{{ref|name=DFC}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|2E 882|[[Lore:Dagoth Ur|Dagoth Ur]] reawakens.|Dagoth Ur and his Ash Vampires awaken underneath the [[Lore:Red Mountain|Red Mountain,]] where they bind themselves to the [[Lore:Heart of Lorkhan|Heart of Lorkhan.]] They ambush the [[Lore:Tribunal|Tribunes]] during their annual ritual bathing in the Heart's power, and drove them off. From then on, the Tribunal was cut off from the Heart chamber, and would launch intermittent campaigns to attempt to force their way inside.{{ref|name=DUP|{{Cite Book|Dagoth Ur's Plans}}}}}}
*The event led to Sotha Sil to begin development on the [[Lore:Mechanical Heart|Mechanical Heart]], a synthetic replication of the Heart of Lorkhan.{{ref|name=RtCC|''[[LG:Legends|Legends]]'''s [[LG:Return to Clockwork City|Return to Clockwork City]] story}}
{{History Entry|2E 893|[[Lore:Barenziah|Barenziah]] is born.|Barenziah, future Queen of [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]], and later {{Lore Link|Wayrest (kingdom)}}, is born.{{ref|name=DFC}}{{ref|group=nb|''{{Lore Link|Biography of Queen Barenziah}}'' asserts Barenziah was five years old at the time of the {{Lore Link|Armistice}}, which was made some unknown time in the final years of the era.}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|2E 896|Tiber Septim conquers Tamriel.|Tiber Septim finishes conquering all the lands of Tamriel with the aid of the Dwarven artifact [[Lore:Numidium|Numidium]] and the battlemage [[Lore:Zurin Arctus|Zurin Arctus]], finally uniting Tamriel in peace. The time of Tiber's reign was a just (even from serf to king) and glorious one, among the best of Tamriel's history.{{ref|name=BHOTE1|{{Cite Book|Brief History of the Empire v 1}}}}
*The beginning of the [[Lore:Third Era|Third Era]] is pronounced by Tiber Septim at the end of the year.{{ref|name=BHOTE1}}}}<noinclude>

==Notes==
<references group=nb/>

==References==
<references/>

{{UOL}}
<references group=UOL/></noinclude>

Template talk:History Entry/Doc

2019-11-04T01:50:07Z

The Silencer: Undo revision 2058419 by The Silencer (talk) you did respond to that

Template talk:History Entry/Doc

2019-11-04T01:48:46Z

The Silencer: /* Recent Change */ reply

== Recent Change ==

The recent change has resulted in huge blank spaces on the Major Events only versions on the timeline pages. See [[Lore:Second Era Major]] for example. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:18, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

:There hasn't been a change to the template in almost 10 years, and it seems unlikely that the change to the document page would have had any effect (much less ''that'' effect). I believe this is actually an issue with how MediaWiki 1.26 handles blank lines vs. templates. I know we've had an issue with other templates, though I'm at a loss as to which one(s) off-hand. Thanks for reporting it, though, I'll see what I can do. It's possible the template calls themselves may need to be rewritten so that there are no blank lines between them. In other words...
:{{Pre|width=auto|<nowiki>...}}{{History Entry
|3E 100|...}}{{History Entry</nowiki>}}
:... and so on. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:43, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

::I was referring to [https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Template:History_Entry/Doc&diff=2009597&oldid=537700 the edit] made to the doc made about 2 months ago. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:48, 4 November 2019 (GMT)

Online:Dar-m'Athra

2019-11-04T01:29:26Z

The Silencer: fixed ingame

{{Online NPC Summary
|image=ON-npc-Dar-m'Athra.jpg
|imgdesc=Dar-m'Athra
|race=Khajiit
|gender=Varies
|loc=Just outside [[Online:Khaj Rawlith|Khaj Rawlith]], [[Online:Fort Grimwatch|Fort Grimwatch]]
|health=0
|faction={{faction|Dro-m'Athra}}
}}
'''Dar-m'Athra''' are dead [[Online:Dro-m'Athra|Dro-m'Athra]] found at the entrance to [[Online:Khaj Rawlith|Khaj Rawlith]] in [[Online:Fort Grimwatch|Fort Grimwatch]].
{{NewLeft}}

Online:Patch/1.0.6

2019-11-04T01:29:15Z

The Silencer: moved

<noinclude>{{Online Patch Header|sort=#01.00.06|April 28 2014}}</noinclude>

====Alliance War====
;General
* Fixed an issue where new characters of different [[Online:alliances|alliances]] could get automatically assigned to the same campaign.

====Combat & Gameplay====
;General
* Fixed an issue that caused some [[Online:Nightblade|Nightblade]] abilities to become unresponsive when you were engaged in combat with a large number of enemies.

====Dungeons & Group Content====
;General
* [[Online:Darkshade Caverns II|Veteran Darkshade Caverns]]: You will no longer receive boss loot from the [[Online:Hive Lord Scrib|Hive Lord Scrib]] adds, and cannot pull the boss without his adds.

====Exploration & Itemization====
;General
* If you decide to skip the tutorial, the items granted to you can no longer be deconstructed.
* Adjusted the time after you loot a delve or overworld boss before you are eligible to receive loot from these types of bosses again.

====Mac Client====
;General
* Fixed an issue that would cause a gradual memory leak during long play sessions.
* Fixed an issue where using dual monitors and bumping the edge of the second screen could inadvertently switch you to windowed mode.
* Fixed an issue where the keyboard language could be set to non Latin on startup.

====Miscellaneous====
;General
* You must now reach level 10 before creating a new [[Online:Guilds|guild]].
* Fixed an issue with the Mac client that would occasionally cause crashes or performance issues.
* Fixed an issue that would cause your screen to occasionally freeze and cause unwarranted CPU usage.
* Fixed an issue that would give the appearance that objects were invisible or missing.
* Fixed an issue so everyone must pay the COD fee to accept COD items.
* Fixed an issue where the game could crash while viewing the in-game map.
* Fixed an issue where the game could crash when you encounter select animated NPCs.

====Quests====
;Main Quest
* Lowered the level requirements to attain the following quests:
::[[Online:Shadow of Sancre Tor|Shadow of Sancre Tor]]
::[[Online:Council of the Five Companions|Last Council of the Five]]
::[[Online:Messages Across Tamriel|Messages across Tamriel]]
::[[Online:The Weight of Three Crowns|The Weight of Three Crowns]]
::[[Online:God of Schemes|God of Schemes]]
:::Note: This only pertains to the level at which the quest can be attained; the levels of the monsters have not changed.
* [[Online:The Weight of Three Crowns|The Weight of Three Crowns]]: The three alliance leaders will now reliably show up to the meeting.
* [[Online:Messages Across Tamriel|Messages Across Tamriel]]: [[Online:Vanus Galerion|Vanus]] will now always be present and appear where intended.
* [[Online:Castle of the Worm (quest)|Castle of the Worm]]: [[Online:Cadwell|Cadwell]] will now assist you in combat.

;Alik'r
* [[Online:Honoring the Dishonored|Honoring the Dishonored]]: [[Online:Zariya|Zariya]]'s spirit will now always appear in the correct location.

;Auridon
* [[Online:Harsh Lesson|Harsh Lesson]]: Fixed an issue where [[Online:Zaban|Zaban]]'s body would sometimes not be interactable after the theatre scene.
* [[Online:To Dawnbreak|To Dawnbreak]]: Completing the quest [[Online:Through the Ashes|Through the Ashes]] before To Dawnbreak no longer results in getting blocked.
* [[Online:Breaking the Barrier|Breaking the Barrier]]: The shards will now always appear properly when on the quest step "Use the Runed Talisman on the Wards."

;Bangkorai
* [[Online:The Waking Darkness|The Waking Darkness]]: Fixed an issue that would prevent [[Online:Preinrha|Preinrha]] from spawning if she previously got stuck.
* [[Online:A City in Black|A City in Black]]: Fixed an issue that would prevent [[Online:Strastnoc|Strastnoc]] from respawning after being killed.

;Deshaan
* [[Online:Search and Rescue|Search and Rescue]]: You will now always be able to interact with the egg under all circumstances.
* [[Online:The Dungeon Delvers|The Dungeon Delvers]]: Increased the number of [[Online:Dwarven Spider|Dwarven Spider]]s in the area to accommodate more players.

;Glenumbra
* [[Online:Season of Harvest|Season of Harvest]]: You will now always be able to throw dirt onto the fire.
* [[Online:Reclaiming the Elements|Reclaiming the Elements]]: Fixed an issue where the portal stone could not be used when looking at certain areas in front of the [[ON:Beldama Wyrd Tree|Wyrd Tree]].
* [[Online:Vines and Villains|Vines and Villians]]: Fixed an issue where the quest would not advance after freeing [[Online:Marie Orinth|Marie Orinth]].

;Grahtwood
* [[Online:Heart of the Matter|Heart of the Matter]]: Killing [[Online:Ukaezai|Ulkaezai]] and absorbing her spirit will now always correctly advance the quest.
* [[Online:Eyes of Azura|Eyes of Azura]]: You will now always be able to interact with the journal pages.
* [[Online:A Lasting Winter|A Lasting Winter]]: It is now possible to advance the quest if you fight [[Online:General Endare|General Endare]] and die.
* [[Online:The Unquiet Dead|The Unquiet Dead]]: Fixed an issue that allowed other players to kill the target before the Bone Scepter animation completed.
* [[Online:Blood Hunt|Blood Hunt]]: Fixed an issue where the vampire event would not always spawn after interacting with the fountain.
* [[Online:Forgotten Soul|Forgotten Soul]]: The Central Welkynd Stone is now interactable on the quest step "Attune Surrounding Welkynd Stones."

;Guilds
* [[Online:The Prismatic Core|The Prismatic Core]]: Killing the boss while [[Online:Merric|Merric]] is stunned will no longer break the quest.
* [[Online:Proving the Deed|Proving the Deed]]: [[Online:Aelif|Aelif]] will now always respawn properly if she gets stuck, or if you die while following her to [[Online:Ragnthar|Ragnthar]].
* Proving the Deed: Updated the pins on your compass that lead you to the boat to take you from Wayrest to Alik'r.
* [[Online:Circus of Cheerful Slaughter (quest)|Circus of Cheerful Slaughter]]: Fixed an issue where one of the Aldmeri actors would get stuck and despawn, blocking the quest from advancing.

;Khenarthi's Roost
* [[Online:Storm on the Horizon|Storm on the Horizon]]: [[Online:Razum-dar|Razum-dar]] will now always appear at the proper location.

;Reaper's March
* [[Online:Hadran's Fall|Hadran's Fall]]: [[Online:Tand|Tand]] will no longer get stuck when being freed.
* Hadran's Fall: Fixed an issue where the quest could break if you kill [[Online:Hadran|Hadren]], leave the room, and quickly return.
* [[Online:Stonefire Machinations|Stonefire Machinations]]: Fixed an issue if any of the [[Online:Dar-m'Athra|Dar-M'Athra]] got stuck and the quest would break.
* [[Online:Hircine's Gift|Hircine's Gift]]: Leaving through the portal on the step "Wait for [[ON:Songamdir|Songamdir]] to begin the ritual" will now no longer lock you in place.
* [[Online:Questionable Contract|Questionable Contract]]: [[Online:Pircalmo|Pircalmo]] will now always spawn inside [[ON:Treethane Ranneth|Treethane Ranneth]]'s [[ON:Treethane Ranneth's House|house]] when on the appropriate step.

;Rivenspire
* [[Online:The Lightless Remnant|The Lightless Remnant]]: [[Online:Count Verandis Ravenwatch|Verandis]] has been found and will always appear in the proper location at the end of the quest.
* [[Online:Foul Deeds in the Deep|Foul Deeds in the Deep]]: [[Online:Thrug|Thrug]], [[Online:Larzgug|Larzgug]] and [[Online:Osgrikh|Osgrikh]] will now always appear at their proper locations, under all circumstances.
* [[Online:Children of Yokuda|Children of Yokuda]]: The sigil will now always respawn when you leave the area and return with a follower.

;Shadowfen
* [[Online:Pull the Last Fang|Pull the Last Fang]]: [[Online:Captain Nahrevii|Captain Nahrevii]] has been found and will now show up at the appropriate location.

;Stonefalls
* [[Online:Climbing the Spire|Climbing the Spire]]: Fixed an issue where the summoning bowl would sometimes not spawn correctly.

;Stros M'Kai
* [[Online:Tip of the Spearhead|Tip of the Spearhead]]: Fixed an issue where you could get into a state where you were unable to stun the guard.

;The Rift
* [[Online:Yngrel the Bloody (quest)|Yngrel the Bloody]]: [[Online:Yngrel the Bloody (person)|Yngrel the Bloody]] will now reliably spawn under all circumstances.
* [[Online:A Walk Above the Clouds|A Walk Above the Clouds]]: It's no longer be possible for "Intense Cold" to remain on you outside of the quest area.

{{Online PC Patches}}

User:Rpeh/WULPPIOHTAASWDP

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Online:Throne Keeper Farvad

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{{Online NPC Summary
|image=ON-npc-Throne Keeper Farvad.jpg
|imgdesc=Throne Keeper Farvad
|race=Redguard
|gender=Male
|loc=[[Online:Tu'whacca's Throne|Tu'whacca's Throne]] [[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]] [[ON:Motalion Necropolis|Motalion Necropolis]]
|health={{ESO Health|fh}}
|reaction=Friendly
|faction=
}} [[File:ON-npc-Throne Keeper Farvad 02.jpg|thumb|right|Throne Keeper Farvad fighting Shiri]]
'''Throne Keeper Farvad''' is a [[Online:Redguard|Redguard]] priest of {{Lore Link|Tu'whacca}} encountered throughout the [[ON:Alik'r Desert|Alik'r Desert]].
{{NewLeft}}

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|Tu'whacca's Breath}}
*{{Quest Link|A Reckoning with Uwafa}}
*{{Quest Link|The Scholar of Bergama}}
*{{Quest Link|March of the Ra Gada}}
*{{Quest Link|Trials of the Hero}}
*{{Quest Link|Amputating the Hand}}

==Dialogue==
===March of the Ra Gada===
:''"Hello. I am glad to meet you. Tu'whacca, in his wisdom, bid me to come here and await your arrival.''
:''Tu'whacca says you will save the Alik'r desert from the Withered Hand, but first, there are things you must learn from the spirits of this place."''

:;There are spirits here?
:''"Yes. Many of them. And pilgrims come from all over {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}} to honor them—the heroes of our greatest wars.''
:''It is usually a quiet affair, but when {{Lore Link|Hero|one such as you}} arrives, spirits of friend and foe alike awaken to create a portrait of the past."''

:;What do they want?
:''"To teach you. If you are to be champion of the Alik'r, you must understand the spirit of this desert and its people.''
:''Tu'whacca says you must walk in the steps of our heroes, battle the spirits of the enemies they faced. Then you will understand."''

:;Fair enough. I will fight these spirits.
:''"First, you will face the [[ON:Nede|Nedic Peoples]]. When the [[ON:Ra Gada|Ra Gada]] first crashed on these shores, the Nedes were first to challenge them.''
:''Fight the Nedic soldiers' spirits. Claim their essences, and use them to summon and face their leader, Warchief Haakon."''

::;Who were the Ra Gada?
::''"That was the name of our Yokudan ancestors during the exodus from our ancient homeland. After {{Lore Link|Yokuda}} sank beneath the waves, they sailed here in search of a new home. Their coming was not peaceful. You see, the term Ra Gada means "warrior wave."''

::;Who were the Nedic Peoples?
::''"The Nedic peoples were the ancient ancestors of our human kin here in Tamriel. Those who dwelled on the {{Lore Link|Herne|isle of Herne}} had long struggled to resist the {{Lore Link|Mer|Elves}} prior to the Ra Gada's arrival. Upon seeing the Yokudan sails, they took up the sword again."''

:::;I take it they lost?
:::''"They struggled mightily. We honor their bravery. But no, they fell before the Yokudan onslaught like all the others."''

When you've collected the Nedic essence and defeated Warchief Haakon, Farvad can be spoken to again at some stairs further into the ruin:

:''"In our fight against the Nedes, we saw the raw power of defiance. We came to respect Tamriel and its warriors.''
:''You must now battle the giant [[ON:Goblin|Goblinkin]]. The Ra Gada's long road to conquest was paved with thousands of these beasts' corpses."''

:;I've never heard of [[ON:Flint-Tooth Tribe|giant Goblins]].
:''"Such things are difficult to imagine, yes. In {{Lore Link|First Era|those times}} Goblins were mighty beasts, and their cruelty was not tempered by cowardice as it is now. Their filthy strongholds littered the sands of Hammerfell like a pox when the Ra Gada arrived."''

:;That sounds horrible.
:''"Horrible indeed! Our Yokudan ancestors could not tolerate such a blight on their new homeland. They would suffer no rivals. And so one of their mightiest heroes, [[ON:Frandar Hunding|Frandar Hunding]], rallied the swords of the Ra Gada to slay the beasts."''

:;What happened to him?
:''"Ah... Tu'whacca claimed him during one of the bloodiest battles of the campaign. But his son [[ON:Divad Hunding|Divad]], filled with wrath over the slaying of his father, soon rose to take command of the Ra Gada. He swore to avenge his father—no matter the cost."''

:;Was he successful?
:''"The Song of Divad tells us that he and his band of [[ON:Sword-singers|Sword Singers]] worked their sacred forges and consulted eldritch tomes for many long years to create five great swords. With these blessed blades, the Ra Gada forever vanquished the giant Goblins."''

:;What is my task?
:''"Well, Tu'whacca tells me that you must do battle with the spirits of the long-dead giant Goblinkin. To what end? I do not know. But only fools doubt Tu'whacca's wisdom."''

When you've collected the Goblin essence and defeated the Flint-Tooth Chief, Farvad can be found higher up in the ruins:

:''"Ironically, it was in our fight against the hideous Goblins that we came to love the desert and its simple beauty.''
:''Now you must face the proud [[ON:Orc|Orc]] warriors of [[ON:Old Orsinium|ancient Orsinium]]. The fight for the Orc city proved to be one of our greatest trials."''

:;Tell me of [[Online:Orsinium|Orsinium]].
:''"It is the heart of Orcdom in Tamriel, settled at the foot of the [[ON:Wrothgar|Wrothgarian Mountains]]. It is a city of simple things—towering and cold. It has been [[Lore:Orsinium|razed and rebuilt]] countless times. The Orcs are a tenacious people.

:;I take it that the Yokudans were one of the conquerors?
:''""Conquerors" is a strong word, but yes, of course they were. Ha! Our ancestors and the [[ON:Breton|Breton]]s' laid siege to the city for thirty years before finally breaching the walls and razing the city. The Orcs proved to be fearsome adversaries."''

:;What is my task?
:''"You must face the ancient Orcish spectres in battle, and then summon and defeat their leader, [[ON:General Theshaga|General Theshaga]].''
:''Tu'whacca says there is great wisdom to be gleaned from this."''

When you've collected the Orcish essence and defeated General Theshaga, Farvad can be spoken to again at some stairs further into the ruin:

:''"The swords of Yokuda were not often sheathed. Our long siege of Orsinium taught us the value of patience.''
:''Now you must face the forces of the Breton [[ON:King Joile|King Joile]]—a treacherous asp whose lust for power led to broken alliances and countless sorrows."''

:;Who was King Joile?
:''"He was the King of [[ON:Daggerfall|Daggerfall]] during the Siege of Orsinium. The embers of the Orcish hold had not even cooled before he took up arms against our ancestors—his former allies. He was slain by [[ON:Makela Leki|a heroic Sword Singer]] at the {{Lore Link|Battle of Bangkorai Pass}}."''

:;What is my task?
:''"You must slay the perfidious spirits of King Joile's Breton army—then King Joile himself, I suspect. Tu'whacca shall be watching."''

When you've defeated King Joile, Farvad can be found at the top of the ruins:
:''"Joile's betrayal taught us yet another virtue: caution—wariness. We remain slow to trust, but loyal beyond measure.''
:''You have reached the summit! The [[Lore:HoonDing|Make-Way God]], sees much at this height. Have you learned the greatest lesson of this place?"''

:;Maybe. What is the lesson?
:''"The greatest lesson of HoonDing's Watch is this: wars are fleeting, but honor is eternal. The dunes of time are ever shifting. Kings rise and fall, cities are razed and rebuilt, alliances are forged and broken. But honor, glory... legend remains."''

===Trials of the Hero===
:''"Your valor strikes a mighty bell! The heroes have come here themselves—Makela Leki, [[ON:Derik Hallin|Derik Hallin]], and both Frandar and Divad Hunding!''
:''Their spirits have come here, to meet you, to challenge you, and to teach you."''

:;I must fight the heroes themselves now?

:''"No. You will not cross blades. The [[ON:Sword-singers|Sword Singers]] were as much mages as warriors. They sought strength of body, and of mind.''
:''These spirits will speak to you. Choose your words with care though. Tu'whacca says they seek to teach... and to test."''

:;All right. I'll speak to the heroic spirits.
:''"You have performed very well in your trials, my friend, but Tu'whacca says the spirits of this place have more to share with you."''

Upon completing the trials:
:''"Tu'whacca tells me that the heroic spirits have returned to their slumber."''

:;Did I pass the spirits' test?
:''"Ha! Only Tu'whacca has such knowledge, my friend. I could barely hear you from here. Luckily, Tu'whacca has shared some of his wisdom with me."''

:;What have you learned?
:''"You show great wisdom with your choices, my friend. You pursue the deepest honor—that which is found in sacrifice. Your pursuit of the Withered Hand is proof of this, is it not so? Only know that caution is sometimes the enemy of progress."''

:;Is this what I was meant to learn?

If you exit dialogue and speak to him again, he will say:

:''"You now know the truth of your heart."''
:;So I was meant to learn my true nature?

Regardless of what dialogue option is taken, he will say:

:''"What? No. I simply thought you'd like to know what Tu'whacca thought of you. He is an excellent judge of character. No, the real lesson of these heroes is that legend always carries a price. You must be prepared to pay that toll when it comes."''

Upon completing the quest:
:''"Walk with Tu'whacca."''

"Tu'whacca tells me that you are bound to the greatest of Redguard virtues: honor and loyalty. You are drawn to great summits and glorious ends. Hold fast to that courageous spirit, but know that sometimes we must make sacrifices for the greater good."

"You walk the narrow path that cuts between glory and sacrificeâ€”valor and patience. You measure your pusuit of honor with reason and foresight. To see all ends is a gift only Tu'whacca possesses. But to walk in his footsteps is wise indeed!"

"Students prove themselves through the art of battle. Any fool can win a duel, but a master knows who will challenge her, and where it will occur.\n\nYou must think as the masters did. Learn not just how they fought, but when, and why."

{{Stub|NPC}}

Online:Nedic Sorcerer

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{{Online NPC Summary
|image=ON-npc-Nedic Sorcerer.jpg
|imgdesc=A Nedic Sorcerer
|loc=[[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]]
|race=Nede
|gender=Male
|health={{ESO Health|ba}}
|reaction=Hostile
|class=Storm Mage
|faction=
|condition=Spirit
|drops={{LIL|Nedic Ghostly Essence|questid=1785}}
|generic=1
}}

'''Nedic Sorcerers''' are hostile [[ON:Nede|Nedic]] spectres encountered at [[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]] during [[ON:March of the Ra Gada|March of the Ra Gada]], and drop Nedic essence upon defeat, which is needed for the quest. In life they fought against the [[ON:Ra Gada Soldier|Ra Gada forces]] on {{Lore Link|Herne}} under [[ON:Warchief Haakon|Warchief Haakon]].
{{NewLeft}}

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|March of the Ra Gada}}

Online:Nedic Ravager

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{{Online NPC Summary
|image=ON-npc-Nedic Ravager.jpg
|imgdesc=A Nedic Ravager
|loc=[[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]] [[ON:Skyreach Catacombs|Skyreach Catacombs]]
|race=Nede
|gender=Varies
|health={{ESO Health|ba}}
|reaction=Hostile
|class=Ravager
|faction=
|condition=Spirit
|drops={{LIL|Nedic Ghostly Essence|questid=1785}}
|generic=1
}}

'''Nedic Ravagers''' are hostile [[ON:Nede|Nedic]] spectres encountered at [[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]] during [[ON:March of the Ra Gada|March of the Ra Gada]], and drop Nedic essence upon defeat, which is needed for the quest. In life they fought against the [[ON:Ra Gada Soldier|Ra Gada forces]] on {{Lore Link|Herne}} under [[ON:Warchief Haakon|Warchief Haakon]]. They can also be encountered in [[ON:Skyreach Catacombs|Skyreach Catacombs]].
{{NewLeft}}

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|March of the Ra Gada}}


{{Stub|NPC}}

Online:Nedic Berserker

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{{Online NPC Summary
|image=ON-npc-Nedic Berserker.jpg
|imgdesc=A Nedic Berserker
|loc=[[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]]
|race=Nede
|gender=Varies
|health={{ESO Health|a}}
|reaction=Hostile
|class=
|faction=
|condition=Spirit
|drops={{LIL|Nedic Ghostly Essence|questid=1785}}
|generic=1
}}
'''Nedic Berserkers''' are hostile [[ON:Nede|Nedic]] spectres encountered at [[ON:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]] during [[ON:March of the Ra Gada|March of the Ra Gada]], and drop Nedic essence upon defeat, which is needed for the quest. In life they fought against the [[ON:Ra Gada Soldier|Ra Gada forces]] on {{Lore Link|Herne}} under [[ON:Warchief Haakon|Warchief Haakon]].
{{NewLeft}}

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|March of the Ra Gada}}

Lore:Hammerfell

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<noinclude>{{cleanup-lpp}}{{Lore Places Trail}}{{Old Lore Transclusion}}{{Lore Place Summary
|continent=Tamriel
|province=Hammerfell
|image=LO-map-Hammerfell (Oblivion Codex).jpg
|imgdesc='''Hammerfell'''
|appears=[[Arena:Hammerfell|Arena]], [[Daggerfall:Hammerfell|Daggerfall]], [[Redguard:Maps|Redguard]], [[Shadowkey:Hammerfell|Shadowkey]], [[Online:Hammerfell|ESO]]}}__NOTOC__
</noinclude>[[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]], once known as '''Hegathe''', the '''Deathland''', and '''Volenfell''', is a province in the west of [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]], bordering [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]], [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]], and [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]].{{ref|name=PGE3|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Hammerfell}}}} This province is dominated by the wasteland of the [[Lore:Alik'r|Alik'r]] desert. It is inhabited by the human race of [[Lore:Redguard|Redguard]]s, who fled to Tamriel after their home, [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]], was destroyed.

Hammerfell is predominately an urban and maritime province, with most of its population confined to the great port and trade cities. The interior is sparsely populated with small poor farms and beastherds. The Redguards' love of travel, adventure, and the high seas have dispersed them as sailors, mercenaries, and adventurers in ports of call throughout the [[Lore:Empire|Empire]].<includeonly>

For more general information, see the [[Lore:Hammerfell|main lore article]].</includeonly><noinclude>

==Geography==
Hammerfell is a barren and rocky place, the vast Alik'r desert taking up most of it, with fertile grassland only on the coasts. As such, the major population centers are on the coastline, while the majority of the country is inhabited only by shifting sands and nomadic tribes. In the north are the [[Lore:Dragontail Mountains|Dragontail Mountains]], home of the misunderstood groups of Orcs reviled by many Bretons and Redguards. Hammerfell borders [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]] across the [[Lore:Bangkorai Pass|Bangkorai Pass]] to the north, [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]] to the northeast and [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]] across the [[Lore:Colovian Highlands|Colovian Highlands]] to the southeast.

Hammerfell is divided into several regions, among them the [[Lore:Alik'r Desert|Alik'r Desert]], southern [[Lore:Bangkorai|Bangkorai]], [[Lore:Craglorn|Craglorn]], [[Lore:Khefrem|Khefrem]], and [[Lore:Sunforge|Sunforge]]. Many isles in the [[Lore:Abecean Sea|Abecean Sea]], including [[Lore:The Chain|The Chain]], [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]],{{ref|name=ON|Events of [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} and sometimes [[Lore:Stirk|Stirk]], are also considered a part of Hammerfell.{{ref|[[Online:Loading Screens|ESO loading screens]]}}
[[File:ON-place-Alik'r Desert.jpg|thumb|right|Alik'r Desert]]
{{NewLeft}}

===Alik'r Desert===
The Alik'r Desert is situated in western Hammerfell, on the shores of the [[Lore:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay]]. The region borders Bangkorai to the east. The main city is [[Lore:Sentinel|Sentinel]]; others include [[Lore:Lainlyn|Lainlyn]], [[Lore:Bergama|Bergama]], [[Lore:Kozanset|Kozanset]] and [[Lore:Satakalaam|Satakalaam]]. Among other places of note are the ruins of the [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]] city of [[Lore:Volenfell|Volenfell]], the {{Future Link|Lost City of the Na-Totambu}}, and the {{Future Link|Montalion necropolis}}.{{ref|name=ON}}

As the name suggests, the region is mostly a vast desert, with some fertile areas on the coast near Sentinel.{{ref|name=ON}}

{{NewLeft}}
[[File:ON-place-Bangkorai.jpg|thumb|left|Fallen Wastes]]

===Bangkorai===
The southern part of Bangkorai, also known as [[Lore:Fallen Wastes|Fallen Wastes]], is situated in northern Hammerfell. The region borders Alik'r to the west and Craglorn to the east. It also borders northern Bangkorai, which is a part of High Rock, across the famous Bangkorai Pass. The main city is [[Lore:Hallin's Stand|Hallin's Stand]] (formerly named Ojwambu). The [[Lore:Hall of Heroes|Hall of Heroes]] is also located here.{{ref|name=ON}} During the mid-[[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]], at the time of the [[Lore:Daggerfall Covenant|Daggerfall Covenant]], Bangkorai as a whole was ruled from the High Rock city of [[Lore:Evermore|Evermore]].{{ref|name=ON}}

The Fallen Wastes, like Alik'r to the west, is a desert region except there is much rougher and rocky terrain.{{ref|name=ON}}
{{NewLeft}}
[[File:ON-place-Craglorn.jpg|thumb|right|Craglorn]]

===Craglorn===
Craglorn is a region in northeastern Hammerfell. It borders Bangkorai to the west, Skyrim holds of [[Lore:Falkreath Hold|Falkreath]] and [[Lore:The Reach|The Reach]] to the northeast, and Cyrodiil across the Colovian Highlands to the southeast. The main cities are [[Lore:Dragonstar|Dragonstar]] and [[Lore:Elinhir|Elinhir]]. The region was a last bastion of the [[Lore:Nede|Nedes]] and the remnants of their civilization can be found there.{{ref|name=ON}}

The southern part of the region, called {{Future Link|Lower Craglorn}}, consists mainly of windswept, dry plains, whereas {{Future Link|Upper Craglorn}} is mountainous and very similar to the Reach, which is just across the mountains to the north.{{ref|name=ON}}

===Khefrem===
Khefrem is a southern, coastal region of Hammerfell. It includes the peninsula of [[Lore:Hew's Bane|Hew's Bane]], once known as Khefrem's Boot. In the days of the [[Lore:Ra Gada|Ra Gada]], Prince Habalajad, also known as "Prince Hew", endeavored to bring civilization to the barren peninsula, but all of his efforts met with misfortune. A sizeable port city called Abah's Landing was eventually established in the eastern corner of Hew's Bane.

{{NewLeft}}
[[File:ON-place-Stros M'Kai.jpg|thumb|left|Stros M'Kai]]

===Stros M'Kai===
Stros M'Kai is a tropical island in the Abecean Sea, off the southern coast of Hammerfell. The main city is also known as Stros M'Kai{{ref|name=RG|Events of [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]]}}, although it was formerly known as Port Hunding.{{ref|name=ON}} The island often served as a haven for pirates and other criminals. It is also famous for its Dwemer ruins, which mark the western reaches of the [[Lore:Rourken|Rourken]] kingdom.{{ref|name=ON}}{{ref|name=RG}}

===Sunforge===
Sunforge is a landlocked region in central Hammerfell. It contains the city of [[Lore:Ska'vyn|Ska'vyn]],{{ref|name=ESOFirilanya|[[Online:Madam Firilanya|Madam Firilanya]]'s letters in ESO}} and was once the native homeland of the [[Lore:Keptu|Keptu]] people.{{Ref|name=CM:12|{{Cite Book|Crafting Motifs 12: Barbaric}}}} The region is made up of rugged badlands and canyon lands, making it difficult to maneuver across the broken terrain.{{ref|name=CSS|[[Lore:Elder Scrolls Online - Crown Store Showcase/Mounts|Crown Store Showcase]]}}

===The Chain===
The Chain is a little known archipelago in the Abecean Sea that is made up of at least three islands.{{ref|[[:File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|Map of West Tamriel]]}}
{{NewLeft}}

==History==
Hammerfell was originally called Hegathe by the [[Lore:Aldmer|Aldmer]] and the Deathland by the early [[Lore:Nede|Nedic people]], both terms roughly meaning the same thing. In {{Year|1E 420}}, the [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]] [[Lore:Rourken|Rourken Clan]] settled the region after opposing the creation of the joint Dwemer-[[Lore:Chimer|Chimer]] state of [[Lore:Resdayn|Resdayn]]. It is said that the leader of the clan threw his mighty hammer, Volendrung, across the continent, and followed it west to their new home. The region eventually became known as Volenfell, or "City of the Hammer", after the Dwemer capital built near the location of modern-day [[Lore:Gilane|Gilane]]. The Dwemer of Volenfell vanished in {{Year|1E 700}} along with the rest of the Dwemer race, and their empty cities were looted by [[Lore:Akavir|Akaviri]] and [[Lore:Nord|Nordic]] pirates before being reclaimed by nature.{{ref|name=PGE3}}
[[File:ON-place-Sentinel.jpg|thumb|left|Sentinel]]

Over a century passed before civilization would return to Volenfell. Fleeing the sinking of their homeland [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]] around {{Year|1E 792}}, the Yokudans sailed eastward in a fleet called the Ra Gada. The majority of the refugees landed at the isle of [[Lore:Herne|Herne]], while the remainder sailed on to Tamriel, a vanguard of invading warriors who would pave the way for the rest of their people.{{ref|name=PGE3}}{{ref|name=PGE1|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Hammerfell}}}} The Ra Gada warriors, who came to be called the [[Lore:Redguard|Redguard]]s, began their conquest in {{Year|1E 808}} and won the entire area of what would become Hammerfell in only a few major battles against native Orc and Breton populations. The Yokudan government, the [[Lore:Na-Totambu|Na-Totambu]], was transplanted whole, and within the next century Volenfell became known as Hammerfell, a rough translation of the Dwemeris term.{{ref|name=PGE3}}

[[File:LO-race-Redguard.png|thumb|Illustration of a typical Redguard male]]
Assimilation into the rest of Tamriel began relatively quickly, as the Yokudans, while displacing the Nedic men, adopted many of their customs and traditions. Over time, Redguard society divided into two groups, depending on their allegiance to the old Yokudan ways or the new ways of Tamriel. When Hammerfell was conquered by the [[Lore:Second Empire|Second Empire]], these groups became formal "parties" that aided Cyrodiil's administration of the province. The [[Lore:Crowns|Crowns]], followers of the traditions of the Na-Totambu, retained their rights of noble council under Imperial rule. The [[Lore:Forebears|Forebears]], descended from the first Ra Gada settlers of Tamriel, were finally granted rights of ownership within their tribal districts. This "republic", however, lasted only so long as the Empire was strong enough to support it. During the [[Lore:Interregnum|Interregnum]], the Crowns quickly reestablished a hereditary monarchy and reasserted their dominance over the Forebears. Adding insult to injury, the new High King of Hammerfell moved his throne from [[Lore:Hegathe|Old Hegathe]] to the more prosperous Forebear city of [[Lore:Sentinel|Sentinel]], capital of the province to this day.{{ref|name=PGE3}}{{ref|name=PGE1}}

In the middle of the Second Era, King [[Lore:Fahara'jad|Fahara'jad]] of Sentinel allied himself with High King [[Lore:Emeric|Emeric]] of [[Lore:Wayrest (kingdom)|Wayrest]] and the Orc king [[Lore:Kurog gro-Orsinium|Kurog gro-Orsinium]] and became one of the leaders of the Greater [[Lore:Daggerfall Covenant|Daggerfall Covenant]]. The Covenant participated in the [[Lore:Alliance War|Alliance War]] circa {{Year|2E 582}}.{{ref|name=GttDC|{{Cite Book|Guide to the Daggerfall Covenant}}}}{{ref|name=ON}}

After the death of the last High King of Hammerfell, [[Lore:Thassad II|Thassad II]], in {{Year|2E 862}}, the Forebears took Sentinel by force in a bid to end the Crowns' oppression. Thassad's son Prince [[Lore:A'tor|A'tor]] moved to recapture the city, resulting in the bloodiest massacre in Hammerfell's history. The Forebears sought aid from [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]] and the [[Lore:Third Empire|Third Empire]], and together they defeated A'tor's forces at the [[Lore:Battle of Hunding Bay|Battle of Hunding Bay]]. Septim took the opportunity to install Imperial governors in Hammerfell's major cities in a bid to draw the region into his burgeoning Empire, part of his ongoing [[Lore:Tiber Wars|conquest of Tamriel]]. The ruthless tactics of the governors resulted in rebellions in [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] and Sentinel, however, forcing Septim to agree to a treaty with the Crown and Forebear factions in order to keep Hammerfell an Imperial province.
[[File:SR-npc-Alik'r Warrior 05.jpg|thumb|left|Two Alik'r warriors]]

Centuries later, the [[Lore:Thalmor|Thalmor]] of the [[Lore:Aldmeri Dominion|Aldmeri Dominion]] would attempt to seize control of Hammerfell from the Third Empire. Emperor [[Lore:Titus Mede II|Titus Mede II]]'s refusal to concede to Thalmor demands triggered the [[Lore:Great War|Great War]] in {{Year|4E 171}}. Aldmeri forces crossed western Cyrodiil and invaded Hammerfell's southern coast, easily sweeping through the scattered resistance put up by the disunited Redguards. Initially only seeking to conquer Hammerfell, the Dominion launched a full-scale invasion of [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]] when it realized the Empire was weaker than previously believed. Imperial fortunes took a turn for the better in Hammerfell two years later, when a Forebear army from Sentinel broke the siege of the Crown city of Hegathe, leading to the reconciliation of the two factions. After the Empire's hard-won victory in the Battle of the Red Ring in {{Year|4E 175}}, the Empire and Dominion signed the [[Lore:White-Gold Concordat|White-Gold Concordat]] and ended the war. Outraged that the terms of the treaty called for a large portion of southern Hammerfell to be turned over to the Dominion, however, the Redguards soundly rejected it. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province to preserve the peace, and fighting between the Aldmeri and Redguards continued. In {{Year|4E 180}}, the exhausted Dominion agreed to the [[Lore:Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai|Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai]] and finally withdrew from the region, leaving Hammerfell an independent albeit devastated nation.{{ref|name=TGW|{{Cite Book|The Great War (book)}}}}
{{NewLeft}}
[[File:ON-concept-08.jpg|thumb|right|Alik'r desert concept]]

===Politics===
Redguards are divided between the cosmopolitan, progressive Forebears and the fundamentalist, isolationist Crowns. The Forebears are the descendants of the Yokudan military class, the Ra Gada, and are generally open to outside cultures such as the Imperials and Bretons; the Crowns are the descendants of the Yokudan noble class and still prefer to shun outsiders, vying to preserve the customs and culture of their ancestors.
===Rulers===
Following the Septim Empire's conquering of the province, the title of High King was dissolved.
* '''Second Era'''
** {{Future Link|Ar-Azal}} (ca. 1E){{Ref|name=TWAAHD|{{Cite Book|The Worthy Ar-Azal, His Deeds}}}}
** {{Future Link|Ramzi the Distrait}} (2E ? - 2E 5??){{ref|name=EGTHammerfell|{{Cite Book|EGT|Hammerfell}}}}
** [[Lore:Fahara'jad|Fahara'jad]] (2E 5?? - 2E ?){{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}
** [[Lore:Thassad II|Thassad II]] (2E ? - 2E 862){{ref|name=PGE1}}{{ref|name=PGE3}}

[[File:ON-place-Hallin's Stand.jpg|thumb|left|[[Lore:Hallin's Stand|Hallin's Stand]], an example of the Redguard architecture]]

===Architecture===
The buildings of the Redguards are notable for being heavily ornamented, with engravings and golden domes. However, some of the cities in Hammerfell are built in different styles: for example, Dragonstar consists of Nordic buildings, whereas the Colovian style can be seen in Elinhir.{{ref|name=ON}}

Since Hammerfell was home to many civilizations in the past, many different types of ruins can be found throughout the province, among them [[Lore:Ayleid|Ayleid]], [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]] and [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokudan]] ruins. In Craglorn, there are also [[Lore:Nede|Nedic]] and [[Lore:Nord|Nordic]] ruins.{{ref|name=ON}}
{{NewLeft}}

==Flora==
In the Alik'r, southern Bangkorai and Stros M'Kai, typical desert vegetation like palm trees and cacti can be found. In Craglorn, crooked trees grow on the central dry plains, whereas the eastern lands near Elinhir and northern mountains are more temperate.{{ref|name=ON}}
[[File:ON-creature-Assassin Beetle.jpg|thumb|right|An assassin beetle in the Alik'r]]

==Fauna==
The hot and dry lands of Hammerfell are home to many fierce creatures. The Alik'r Desert is inhabited by [[Lore:Duneripper|dunerippers]], [[Lore:Assassin Beetle|assassin beetles]], [[Lore:Giant Scorpion|giant scorpions]], [[Lore:Crocodile|crocodiles]], [[Lore:Jackal|jackals]] and [[Lore:Harpy|harpies]]. [[Lore:Wasp|Giant wasps]], [[Lore:Lamia|lamias]] and [[Lore:Lion|lions]] can be found in Bangkorai. In somewhat cooler Craglorn, one can find [[Lore:Welwa|Welwa]], [[Lore:Duneracer|duneracers]], or more peaceful [[Lore:Camel|camels]], [[Lore:Daggerback|daggerbacks]], [[Lore:Fellrunner|fellrunners]], {{Future Link|Sandroach|sandroaches}}, and [[Lore:Fennec Fox|fennec foxes]].{{ref|name=ON}}

==Notable Places==
;[[Lore:Abah's Landing|Abah's Landing]]: A large port city on the [[Lore:Hew's Bane|Hew's Bane]] peninsula in Khefrem.
;[[Lore:Dragonstar|Dragonstar]]: A city-state in northwestern Craglorn, just south of the border with High Rock and Skyrim.
;[[Lore:Elinhir|Elinhir]]: A town in eastern Craglorn, close to the border with both Skyrim and Cyrodiil.
;[[Lore:Gilane|Gilane]]: A town in southern Hammerfell lying west of Taneth and southeast of Sentinel.
;[[Lore:Hallin's Stand|Hallin's Stand]]: A town in southern Bangkorai.
;[[Lore:Hegathe|Hegathe]]: A port city in southwestern Hammerfell that served as the capital until the [[Lore:Interregnum|Interregnum]].
;[[Lore:Rihad|Rihad]]: A port city on the coast of the [[Lore:Abecean Sea|Abecean Sea]], on the main road between Anvil and Taneth.
;[[Lore:Sentinel|Sentinel]]: A major port city in the Alik'r Desert, overlooking the [[Lore:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay]], and capital of Hammerfell.
;[[Lore:Skaven|Skaven]]: A town in north-central Hammerfell.
;[[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]]: A tropical island off the southern coast of Hammerfell near the [[Lore:Cape of the Blue Divide|Cape of the Blue Divide]].
;[[Lore:Taneth|Taneth]]: A town in southern Hammerfell on the Abecean Sea lying northwest of Rihad and east of Gilane.

==Gallery==
===Maps===
<gallery>
File:AR-map-Hammerfell.jpg|Arena
File:LO-map-Hammerfell (Morrowind Codex).png|Morrowind Codex ([[:File:LO-map-Hammerfell (PGE1).jpg|PGE1]] and [[:File:LO-map-Hammerfell (TES3).jpg|TES3]] variants)
File:LO-map-Hammerfell (Oblivion Codex).jpg|Oblivion Codex
File:LO-map-Hammerfell (Anthology).jpg|Anthology
</gallery>

==References==
<references/>
{{Nirn}}
</noinclude>

Lore:First Era

2019-11-04T01:19:08Z

The Silencer: moved

{{Lore History Trail}}{{Lore History|evtsw=yes|botline=yes}}
{{TOCright}}

==First Century==
{{History Entry|1E 0|The {{Lore Link|Camoran Dynasty}} is founded by [[Lore:Eplear|King Eplear]].|The Camoran Dynasty of [[Lore:Valenwood|Valenwood]] is founded by King Eplear.{{ref|name=PGE3V|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Valenwood}}}}
*The [[Lore:Ayleids|Ayleids]] of [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]] use this newly formed kingdom as a buffer from the influence of the [[Lore:Alinor (city)|Alinor]] ([[Lore:Summerset Isle|Summerset Isle]]) kingdom. The {{Lore Link|White-Gold Tower}} becomes an independent city-state, and the heart of the Ayleid Empire.{{ref|name=BTAOM|{{Cite Book|Before the Ages of Man}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 20|The {{Lore Link|Psijic Order}} first appears in recorded history.|The {{Lore Link|Breton}} sage and author Voernet writes of his trip to the Isle of {{Lore Link|Artaeum}} to meet with {{Lore Link|Iachesis}}, the Ritemaster of the Psijics, the counselors of kings and proponents of the "Elder Way," taught to them by the [[Lore:Ehlnofey|original race]] that inhabited {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}.{{ref|name=FOA|{{Cite Book|Fragment: On Artaeum}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 68|The last [[Lore:Atmora|Atmoran]] "invasion" arrives in {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}.|Two Atmoran ships laden with corpses beg to make port in Tamriel, marking the final wave of large-scale Atmoran migration to the continent.{{ref|name=PGE3Other|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Other Lands}}}}|minor=yes}}

==Second Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 113|{{Lore Link|Harald}} is born.{{intnote|nb1|[nb 1]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 140|{{Lore Link|Harald}}'s forces stumble upon and attack {{Lore Link|Forelhost}}, the last stronghold of the [[Lore:Dragon Cult|Dragon Cult]].|When Harald's army breaches the stronghold, most of the cultists commit suicide by poisoning the stronghold's water supply, which also ends up killing much of the attacking force.{{ref|name=SSSJ|{{Cite Book|Skorm Snow-Strider's Journal}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 143|{{Lore Link|Harald}} is crowned High King of the Nords.|Harald, the 13th descendant of the legendary {{Lore Link|Ysgramor}}'s line, relinquishes his ancestral holdings in Atmora, and consolidates Skyrim as an independent kingdom with {{Lore Link|Windhelm}} as its capital. He is later recognized as the first historical ruler of the Nords.{{ref|name=FC|{{Cite Book|Frontier, Conquest}}}}{{ref|name=PKH|[[:File:SR-misc-Harald Plaque.png|Memorial plaque]] in [[Skyrim:Windhelm|Windhelm]]}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 198|The Scouring of Wendelbek.|The {{Lore Link|Narfinsel Schism}}, a late-{{Lore Link|Merethic Era}} internal conflict pitting {{Lore Link|Aedra}}-worshiping {{Lore Link|Ayleid}} clans against {{Lore Link|Daedra}}-worshiping clans, comes to a climax at {{Lore Link|Wendelbek}}. King {{Lore Link|Glinferen}} of {{Lore Link|Atatar}} led a combined force of Daedraphile warriors against the traditionalist Barsaebics of Ayleidoon. The Barsaebics were driven out of the {{Lore Link|Heartland}} into northwest {{Lore Link|Argonia}}, ending organized opposition to Daedra-worship in {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}.{{ref|name=ASIV|{{Cite Book|Ayleid Survivals in Valenwood}}}}}}

==Third Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 200|{{Lore Link|Khosey}} writes the {{Lore Link|Tamrilean Tractates}}.|Khosey transcribes a firsthand account of the discovery of the {{Lore Link|Breton}}s by a {{Lore Link|Nord}}ic hunting party.{{ref|name=PGE1High|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|High Rock}}}} The Tractates also mention what is believed to be the earliest recorded ancestor of {{Lore Link|Tharn|House Tharn}}, one "Tharanus Ye Redde-Hand", who historians assert may have served the Ayleids as a clerk.{{ref|name=HTON|{{Cite Book|House Tharn of Nibenay}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 221|High King {{Lore Link|Harald}} dies at the age of 108.|With Harald's death, his eldest son {{Lore Link|Hjalmer}} becomes the next High King of Skyrim.{{ref|name=FC}}{{ref|name=TDC|{{Cite Book|ns_base=BK|The Daggerfall Chronicles}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 222|High King {{Lore Link|Hjalmer}} dies.|With Hjalmer's death, the second son of Harald, [[Lore:Vrage|Vrage the Gifted]], assumes the throne of Skyrim.{{ref|name=TDC}}{{ref|name=KE10|{{Cite Book|King Edward, Part X}}}}{{intnote|nb2|[nb 2]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 227|The Gradual Massacre occurs.|One of the participants in the massacre was the notorious Tharhan the Mutilant. Later scholars theorized that Tharhan and the {{Lore Link|Tharn}} ancestor Tharanus Ye Redde-Hand were one and the same.{{ref|name=HTON}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 240|The [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]] Conquests occur.|From 1E 222 - 272, the {{Lore Link|First Empire of the Nords}} expands across [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]] and [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]], swallowing them up by 2E 240.{{ref|name=FC}}{{ref|name=KE10}}{{ref|name=TDC}}{{ref|name=PGE1S|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Skyrim}}}} Some sources interpret the Skyrim Conquests to have run from 1E 240 to [[#1E 416|1E 415]].{{ref|name=TLST|{{Cite Book|The Legendary Sancre Tor}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 242|The {{Lore Link|Alessian Slave Rebellion}} erupts in {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}.|{{Lore Link|Alessia}}, also known as the Slave Queen, leads the predominantly human slaves against the {{Lore Link|Ayleid}} Empire, with the help of the {{Lore Link|Nord}}s and some rebel Ayleid rulers. They eventually conquer all of Cyrodiil.{{ref|name=SATD|{{Cite Book|Shezarr and the Divines}}}}{{ref|name=PGE3C|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Cyrodiil}}}}{{ref|name=TSOP|{{Cite Book|The Song of Pelinal}}}}{{ref|name=TLKOTA|{{Cite Book|The Last King of the Ayleids}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 243|Taking of the {{Lore Link|White-Gold Tower}}.{{ref|name=PGE3All|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|All the Eras of Man}}}}|The [[Lore:White-Gold Tower|White-Gold Tower]] finally falls into the hands of the rebels, marking the end of Ayleid supremacy in Cyrodiil, and the Slave Queen {{Lore Link|Alessia}} founds the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}}. The remaining Ayleids that opposed Alessia seek refuge with {{Lore Link|Valenwood}}'s [[Lore:Camoran Dynasty|Camoran Dynasty]] and the {{Lore Link|Direnni}} in {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, while the rebel Ayleid lords who sided with Alessia continue to rule parts of Cyrodiil as vassals of the new Empress Alessia.{{ref|name=TLKOTA}} Some famous human heroes are [[Lore:Morihaus|Morihaus]], who leads the attack of White-Gold Tower, and [[Lore:Pelinal Whitestrake|Pelinal Whitestrake]], who single-handedly defeats many of the Ayleid kings, including the Ayleids' demigod champion [[Lore:Umaril the Unfeathered|Umaril the Unfeathered]].{{ref|name=TSOP}}
* From 1E 243 to [[#1E 498|498]], the new kingdom of humans, under the rule of Empress Alessia and her descendants, prospers and rules the nearest kingdoms of [[Lore:Colovia|Colovia]]. They build a strong national identity as they gradually become more united. The Empress Alessia creates the new religion of the [[Lore:Eight Divines|Eight Divines]], fusing the pantheons of the {{Lore Link|Nord}}s and Cyrodiilic tribes, who followed [[Lore:Altmer|Altmer]]i deities.{{ref|name=SATD}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 246|[[Lore:Daggerfall|Daggerfall City]] is founded.|The north half of the [[Lore:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay]], including the current province of {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, is conquered by invading {{Lore Link|Nord}}s, who bring a rough sort of civilization with them. One of the Nords' first civilized acts is a census - the ''[[Lore:Book of Life|Book of Life]]''. Listed on page 933 of the book is this entry: "North of the Highest bluffs, south of the moors, west of the hills, and east of the sea is called DAGGERFALL. 110 men, 93 women, 13 children under 8 years of age, 58 cows, 7 bulls, 63 chickens, 11 cocks, 38 hogs live here."{{ref|name=AHOD|{{Cite Book|A History of Daggerfall}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 266|Empress Alessia dies.{{ref|name=COTF|{{Cite Book|Cleansing of the Fane}}}}|[[Lore:Akatosh|Akatosh]] (or [[Lore:Shezarr|Shezarr]] in the form of Pelinal{{ref|name=TSOP}}) arrives at the {{Lore Link|White-Gold Tower}} in the [[Lore:Imperial City|Imperial City]] and transforms the dying Alessia into the first of the Cyrodilic saints. Thus, Empress Alessia becomes the first gem in the Cyrodilic [[Lore:Amulet of Kings|Amulet of Kings]]. This is the beginning of the Covenant between the {{Lore Link|Imperial}}s and Akatosh, which helps to protect {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} from {{Lore Link|Oblivion}}.{{ref|name=TOSA|{{Cite Book|Trials of St. Alessia}}}}{{ref|name=TAOK|{{Cite Book|The Amulet of Kings}}}}}}

==Fourth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 340|{{Lore Link|Valenwood}} forms a trade treaty with the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}}.{{ref|name=PGE3V}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 355|Clan [[Lore:Direnni|Direnni]] rises to prominence.|Clan Direnni, the only known [[Lore:Altmer|High Elven]] ruling family remaining in human lands, claims power in {{Lore Link|High Rock}} through political maneuvering and various machinations.{{ref|name=TDC}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 361|The [[Lore:Alessian Doctrines|Alessian Doctrines]] are enforced.|The {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}} becomes the dominant political factor in the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}}, and their doctrines are enforced throughout {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} and northern {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}.{{ref|name=TLKOTA}} The doctrines impose the very strict religious teachings of the prophet [[Lore:Marukh|Marukh]], who, after reportedly receiving visions from the ghost of the Slave Queen {{Lore Link|Alessia}}, begins to question Elven rule, calling for a suppression of Elven elements within the pantheon of the {{Lore Link|Eight Divines}}.{{ref|name=PGE1C|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Cyrodiil}}}} The Order enforces strict codes of behavior which preclude most forms of entertainment.{{ref|name=RTR|{{Cite Book|Rislav The Righteous}}}} The remaining {{Lore Link|Ayleid}} lordships, once tolerated by the Alessian Empire, are abolished.{{ref|name=TLKOTA}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 369|High King [[Lore:Borgas|Borgas]] dies.|When High King Borgas of [[Lore:Winterhold (city)|Winterhold]] is killed during the [[Lore:Wild Hunt|Wild Hunt]] and the {{Lore Link|Moot}} fails to elect {{Lore Link|Jarl Hanse}} as the next ruler of {{Lore Link|Skyrim}}, the {{Lore Link|War of Succession}} erupts across the [[Lore:First Empire of the Nords|Nordic Empire]]. The conflict leads to the Empire's dissolution as its territories in {{Lore Link|Morrowind}}, {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, and {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} break away. The war ends in [[#1E 420|1E 420]] with the {{Lore Link|Pact of Chieftains}}.{{ref|name=AHOD}}{{ref|name=PGE1S}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 374|The Ayleid vassal-state of {{Lore Link|Nenalata}} is massacred by the {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}}.|Nenalata, the last remaining Ayleid city in Cyrodiil is given an ultimatum to leave the province or face extermination. King {{Lore Link|Laloriaran Dynar}} gathers those who wished to leave and begins an exodus to the lands of the {{Lore Link|Direnni Hegemony}}. Shortly afterwards the Alessian Army arrives at Nenalata and massacres all who choose to stay behind.{{ref|name=TLKOTA}}{{ref|name=ALOSAS|{{Cite Book|A Life of Strife and Struggle}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 376|The traditional {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}n emperors are overthrown.|The traditional tenets of the Yokudan Empire are overthrown, and although each successive emperor remains a figurehead for the empire, his powers are very much reduced. The [[Lore:Redguard|Redguard]] people see 300 years of almost continuous civil war between provincial lords, warrior monks, and brigands, all fighting each other for land and power before the appearance of the hero [[Lore:Hunding|Hunding]].{{ref|name=RTHATH|{{Cite Book|Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes}}}} {{intnote|nb3|[nb 3]}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 393|The [[Lore:Alessian Order|Alessian Order]] sacks {{Lore Link|Malada}}, an ancient [[Lore:Ayleids|Ayleid]] temple.{{ref|name=COTF}}|minor=yes}}

==Fifth Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 416|The {{Lore Link|Nord}}s are driven out of {{Lore Link|Morrowind}}.|The united {{Lore Link|Chimer}} and {{Lore Link|Dwemer}} drive the Nords out of modern-day Morrowind, which was then called {{Lore Link|Resdayn}}. {{Lore Link|Nerevar}} and {{Lore Link|Dumac}} become leaders of the {{Lore Link|First Council}} of Resdayn, and it flourishes under their leadership. Peace among the Chimer and the Dwemer brings an unprecedented prosperity to their land.{{ref|name=PGE3All}}{{ref|name=PGE1M|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Morrowind}}}}{{intnote|nb2|[nb 2]}}
*The Dwemer clan [[Lore:Rourken|Rourken]] rebel against this alliance with the Chimer and self-exile themselves. According to legend, "the Rourken chieftain threw his mighty hammer, {{Lore Link|Volendrung}}, across {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}, promising to lead his clansmer to 'wherever it should fall.'" The land where they would arrive was thus called Volenfell (i.e., {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}).{{ref|name=PGE1Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}}
*{{Lore Link|Jurgen Windcaller}} goes on his "Seven-Year Meditation", culminating in the formation of the {{Lore Link|Greybeards}}.{{ref|name=Hrothgar|[[Skyrim:High Hrothgar#Etched Tablets|The Etched Tablets of High Hrothgar.]]}}{{ref|name=PGE3All}}{{ref|name=FSOKW|{{Cite Book|Five Songs of King Wulfharth}}}}{{ref|name=PKO|A [[:File:SR-misc-Olaf Plaque.png|stone etching]] in [[Lore:Windhelm|Windhelm]]}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 420|The {{Lore Link|Skyrim}} {{Lore Link|War of Succession}} ends.|The Skyrim War of Succession ends with the Pact of Chieftains. The war resulted in Skyrim losing control of the other provinces in northern {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}, and though their borders continue to shift occasionally, they never regain their former stature.{{ref|name=PGE1S}}
*[[Lore:Olaf One-Eye|Olaf One-Eye]] is crowned High King of [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]].{{ref|name=PKO}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 420|Clan Rourken settles in Volenfell.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Hammerfell}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 448|{{Lore Link|Rislav Larich}} is born.{{ref|name=RTR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 452|Olaf One-Eye dies.{{ref|name=PKO}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 461|Coronation of Emperor {{Lore Link|Gorieus}} of the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}}.|The ceremony is attended by many of the most famous people of the time, including {{Lore Link|Rislav Larich}}, {{Lore Link|Darloc Brae}}, {{Lore Link|Kjoric the White}}, {{Lore Link|Hoag Merkiller}}, {{Lore Link|Nerevar|Indoril Nerevar}}, {{Lore Link|Dumac|Dumac Dwarfking}}, and Ryain Direnni.{{ref|name=RTR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 463|The destruction of {{Lore Link|Corinthe}}'s Grand Archive|A group of {{Lore Link|Merrunz}} cultists burn the city's archives, destroying most of the Elsweyr's {{Lore Link|Merethic Era}} records.{{ref|name=OotKMT|{{Cite Book|Origins of the Khajiiti Martial Tradition}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 470|Approximate date of the discovery of the {{Lore Link|Flask of Lillandril}}.|A group of elves living in the port city of [[Lore:Lillandril|Lillandril]] discover a magical flask with the ability to absorb all magic cast at it.{{ref|name=EA|{{Cite Book|Elven Artifacts vIII}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 472|{{Lore Link|Skingrad}} and {{Lore Link|Kvatch}} cease feuding.|After decades of skirmishing over common territory, Skingrad and Kvatch reach a peace, presumably due to a royal marriage.{{ref|name=RTR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 477|Clan {{Lore Link|Direnni}} conquers {{Lore Link|High Rock}} and large parts of {{Lore Link|Skyrim}} and {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}.{{ref|name=TDC}}|minor=yes}}{{History Entry
|1E 478|{{Lore Link|Kjoric the White}} dies.|The High King of Skyrim is killed fighting the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}} in the {{Lore Link|Battle of Sungard}}.{{ref|name=RTR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 478|King {{Lore Link|Rislav Larich}} of {{Lore Link|Skingrad}} routs an {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire|Alessian}} army led by Emperor {{Lore Link|Gorieus}}.|Following a plague that swept through Western {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}, King Mhorus Larich of Skingrad dies and the throne of Skingrad passes to his eldest surviving son, Dorald, an Alessian priest who immediately cedes the kingdom to the Empire. Outraged, Dorald's younger brother, Rislav, executes Dorald and is crowned the new king. Emperor Gorieus mobilizes his army to reclaim Skingrad for the Empire, but his forces are ultimately routed by Rislav's well-positioned archers and the timely assistance of King Justinius of Kvatch. Rislav's feat inspires additional acts of defiance against the Empire: the other kings of the Colovian West form an alliance with Skingrad and Kvatch, Ryain Direnni outlaws the Alessian Reform in High Rock and mounts incursions into Imperial territory, and {{Lore Link|Skyrim}} under High King {{Lore Link|Hoag Merkiller}} joins the resistance.{{ref|name=RTR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 480|[[Lore:Wulfharth|Ysmir Wulfharth]] takes the throne in {{Lore Link|Windhelm}}.{{ref|name=PKW|[[:File:SR-misc-Wulfharth Plaque.png|Memorial plaque]] in [[Skyrim:Windhelm|Windhelm]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 480|The {{Lore Link|Direnni}} push back the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire|Alessians}}.|{{Lore Link|Aiden Direnni}} leads a series of minor but important victories against the Alessians in {{Lore Link|High Rock}}.{{ref|name=TFL|{{Cite Book|The Final Lesson}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 482|The {{Lore Link|Battle of Glenumbria Moors}}|The battle between the {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}} and the {{Lore Link|Direnni}} Elves of {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, under the command of {{Lore Link|Aiden Direnni}}. The Order is soundly defeated by the Elves at the cost of much of the Elven power in High Rock. The {{Lore Link|Nord}} High King {{Lore Link|Hoag Merkiller}} is killed during the battle.{{ref|name=TLKOTA}}
* The province of [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]], under the new High King [[Lore:Wulfharth|Wulfharth]], submits to a fiery reinstatement of the traditional {{Lore Link|Nord}}ic pantheon. Alessian temples are destroyed, and remnants of its priesthood seek refuge in the {{Lore Link|Heartlands}}.{{ref|name=FSOKW}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 498|Elven power in {{Lore Link|High Rock}} is ended.|The Elves of High Rock, after losing much power in the {{Lore Link|Battle of Glenumbria Moors}} against the {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}}, are finally driven from High Rock almost 20 years later, ending the so-called Late Ayleid Period.{{ref|name=TLKOTA}}{{ref|name=PGE1High}}}}

==Sixth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 500|The reign of [[Lore:Wulfharth|High King Ysmir Wulfharth]].|The approximate date for the earliest legends of King Wulfharth{{ref|name=FSOKW}} (he actually first appeared in the history books in [[#1E 480|1E 480]]).|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 533|[[Lore:Wulfharth|High King Ysmir Wulfharth]] dies.{{ref|name=PKW}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 580|The Great Burn occurs on the fortieth birthday of Baron Montclair.{{ref|The description of [[Online:Contraband H#House Montclair Celebratory Sparkle Stick|House Montclair Celebratory Sparkle Stick]] in ESO}}|Stoneglow Enchantments crafted Sparkle Sticks for the occasion, which had inadvertently caused the fire.}}

==Seventh Century==
{{History Entry|1E 609|King [[Lore:Thagore|Thagore]] defeats [[Lore:Glenpoint|Glenpoint]].|King Thagore of {{Lore Link|Daggerfall (kingdom)}} defeats the army of Glenpoint and becomes the preeminent economic, cultural, and military force in southern {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, a position the kingdom has precariously kept ever since.{{ref|name=AHOD}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 609|{{Lore Link|Mansel Sesnit}} becomes Elden Yokeda.|Mansel Sesnit comes to the fore as the Elden Yokeda, or military dictator of the {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}ns, and for eight years successfully gains control of nearly the whole empire.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 617|{{Lore Link|Mansel Sesnit}} is assassinated.|Sesnit, the military dictator of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}, is assassinated and a commoner, {{Lore Link|Randic Torn}}, takes over the government of the Yokudans. He rules for 120 years.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 660|{{Lore Link|Battle of Dragon Wall}}|[[Lore:Mauloch|Mauloch]], [[Lore:Orc|Orc]]ish god of the [[Lore:Velothi Mountains|Velothi Mountains]], is defeated at the Battle of Dragon Wall and flees east.{{ref|name=VOF|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith...}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 668|[[Lore:War of the First Council|The War of the First Council]]; {{Lore Link|Vvardenfell}} erupts.|The first eruption of Morrowind's gigantic volcano, since known as [[Lore:Red Mountain|Red Mountain]]. Ash spews into the sky and hides the sun for a year. This year is also called Sun's Death or the Year of Winter in Summer.{{ref|name=VOF}}{{ref|name=TNM|{{Cite Book|The Nirnroot Missive}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 670|Iliath Temple is converted to worship the {{Lore Link|Tribunal}}.{{ref|name=ONloadIliath|[[Online:Iliath Temple|Iliath Temple]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}

==Eighth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 700|[[Lore:Battle of Red Mountain|Battle of Red Mountain]].|The approximate date of the famous battle between the [[Lore:Chimer|Chimer]] and the [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]], led by [[Lore:Nerevar|Nerevar]] and [[Lore:Dumac|Dumac Dwarfking]], which concludes [[Lore:The War of the First Council|the War of the First Council]]. Both Nerevar and Dumac perish. These events pave the way for the formation of {{Lore Link|Tribunal}} [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]], which would last until just short of the end of the {{Lore Link|Third Era}}.{{ref|name=TBORM|{{Cite Book|The Battle of Red Mountain}}}}{{ref|name=NARM|{{Cite Book|Nerevar at Red Mountain}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 700|The Dwemer disappear.|The entire Dwarven nation across {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} mysteriously disappears.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}{{ref|name=DI1|{{Cite Book|Dwemer Inquiries Vol I}}}}
* With the Dwemer gone, the {{Lore Link|War of the Crag}} between them and their {{Lore Link|Falmer}} slaves ends.{{ref|name=TFAS|{{Cite Book|The Falmer: A Study}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 720|{{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}} is born.|The most revered {{Lore Link|Ansei}} warrior in history is born in the province of {{Lore Link|High Desert}} in {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 734|Frandar Hunding's father dies.|At the age of 14, Frandar loses his father in one of many insurrections, and is left to support his mother and four brothers.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 737|Emperor {{Lore Link|Randic Torn}} of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}} dies.|Torn's death comes after 120 years of rule. After his death, a vicious civil war breaks out.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 760|{{Lore Link|Divad Hunding}} is born.|Divad was the only son of {{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}}, and was born late in Hunding's life.{{ref|name=DTS|{{Cite Book|Divad the Singer}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 776|Divad Hunding becomes an acrobat.|Divad Hunding, frustrated by his fathers absence, quits his training at the {{Lore Link|Halls of Virtue|Hall of the Virtues of War}} and becomes a circus acrobat (and later a notable bard).{{ref|name=DTS}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 780|Frandar Hunding writes the ''{{Lore Link|Books of Circles}}''.|{{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}}, thinking himself invincible, becomes a hermit retiring to a cave in the mountains of high desert to write his philosophy of ''the Way of the Sword'' in the ''Book of Circles''.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 780|The {{Lore Link|War of the Singers}}.|Emperor {{Lore Link|Hira}} attempts to wrestle control of the empire from the people by exterminating the sword-singers. Frandar Hunding leads the resistance and crushes his army at the foot of Mount Hattu. Shortly after, Frandar, his son, and his army migrate to Hammerfell.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 792|Defeat of {{Lore Link|Hiradirge}}.|A renegade band of {{Lore Link|Ansei}} called the Hiradirge were defeated in battle.{{ref|name=PGE3Other}} Eventually this led to the destruction of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}}}}
{{History Entry|between 1E 792 and 1E 808|The destruction of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}.|Yokuda {{Lore Link|Yokuda#Destruction|sinks}}, presumably at the hands of the Hiradirge, said to be masters of "stone magic".{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}} The bulk of the refugees flee east to the island {{Lore Link|Herne}}, while the rest continue on to Tamriel.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} There isn't much left of the continent except for several islands.}}

==Ninth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 800|{{Lore Link|Northpoint}} is founded sometime during the ninth century|Captain Yric Flowdys establishes Northpoint as a waystation to accommodate trade route vessels.{{ref|name=NAA}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 800|Earliest date of {{Lore Link|Wayrest}} City|It is difficult for historians to declare a certain date for the foundation of Wayrest. A settlement of some variety had been existent where the {{Lore Link|Bjoulsae River}} feeds the {{Lore Link|Iliac Bay}}, possibly since the 800th year of the First Era. The traders and fishermen of Wayrest were surrounded by hostile parties: the {{Lore Link|Orc}} capital of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}} had grown like a poison weed to the north, and the {{Lore Link|Akaviri}} pirates and raiders crowded the islands to the west. There is no mystery to Wayrest's name. After the fighting most travelers had to endure passing through the eastern end of the Iliac Bay, the little fishing village on the Bjoulsae was a welcome rest.{{ref|name=WJOTB|{{Cite Book|Wayrest, Jewel Of The Bay}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 808|{{Lore Link|Ra Gada}} arrives in {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}.{{ref|name=HOTIB|{{Cite Book|Holidays of the Iliac Bay}}}}|A warrior wave of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}ns, the [[Lore:Ra Gada|Ra Gada]], drives the {{Lore Link|beastfolk}} and {{Lore Link|Nedic}} peoples from [[Lore:Volenfell|Volenfell]]. Over time, the name "Ra Gada" becomes corrupted into "Redguard", and the race claims Hammerfell as their homeland. The beastfolk refugees escape from Hammerfell and join the Orcs at {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}.{{ref|name=PGE3Other}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 853|The {{Lore Link|Corelanya Clan}} are exterminated by Yokudan colonists|Led by King {{Lore Link|Xakhwan}} of {{Lore Link|Yath}}, the Yokudans face the Corelanya clan at the Ash'abah Pass and finally drive them from Hammerfell. King Xakhwan was killed during the conflict and was succeeded by one of his sons.{{ref|name=ONPH|[[Online:Prince Haqmir|Prince Haqmir]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}{{ref|name=ONTI|[[Online:The Initiation|The Initiation]] quest in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 874|Warlord {{Lore Link|Thulgeg}}'s army of {{Lore Link|Orc}}s and {{Lore Link|Goblin}}s are driven from Hammerfell by the Yokudans|{{Lore Link|Breton}} forces deny the survivors passage through the {{Lore Link|Bangkorai Pass}}, forcing them to flee northeast through the {{Lore Link|Dragontail Mountains}} before they finally reach {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}.{{ref|name=BSOHR}}}}

==Tenth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 907|The {{Lore Link|Direnni}} repel an attempted {{Lore Link|Redguard}} invasion.|Vilified by their former vassals, the remnants of the Direnni clan repel an attack on the {{Lore Link|Isle of Balfiera}}.{{ref|name=TBMOP|{{Cite Book|The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 946|Creation of Shinji's Credo|[[Lore:Gaiden Shinji|Gaiden Shinji]] is quoted saying his famous credo: ''"The best techniques are passed on by the survivors."''{{ref|name=ARCistern|A [[:File:OB-item-Arena Cistern Quote.png|cistern]] in the [[Lore:Imperial City|Imperial City]] Arena}}{{intnote|nb4|[nb 4]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 948|{{Lore Link|Joile|King Joile}} writes to {{Lore Link|Gaiden Shinji}} proposing an assault on {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}.|Recorded in the Annals of Daggerfall, the letter contains the following reference: ''"The {{Lore Link|Orc}}s have been much plaguing the Wayresters and impeding traffic to the heart of the land."''.{{ref|name=WJOTB}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 950|Assault on {{Lore Link|Orsinium}} begins.|The annihilation of the {{Lore Link|Orc}}ish capital Orsinium begins thanks to the joint effort of {{Lore Link|Daggerfall (kingdom)}}, the new kingdom of {{Lore Link|Sentinel (kingdom)}}, and the {{Lore Link|Order of the Diagna|Order of Diagna}}. It took constant effort over 30 years to finally drive out the Orcs.{{ref|name=NWOB|{{Cite Book|Newgate's War Of Betony}}}}{{ref|name=PGE3O|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Orsinium}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 973|The Memory Stone of {{Lore Link|Makela Leki}} is found.|The memory stone of Makela Leki was found in the {{Lore Link|Bangkorai}} pass. Its contents were written in the book ''{{Lore Link|From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki}}''. Makela and her five companions died defending against an invasion led by King {{Lore Link|Joile}} of {{Lore Link|Daggerfall (kingdom)}} sponsored by {{Lore Link|High Rock}}.{{ref|name=FTMSOFL|{{Cite Book|From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 980|{{Lore Link|Orsinium}} is defeated.|The annihilation of the {{Lore Link|Orc}}ish capital Orsinium by a joint effort of {{Lore Link|Daggerfall (kingdom)}}, the new kingdom of {{Lore Link|Sentinel (kingdom)}}, and the now extinct [[Lore:Order of the Diagna|Order of the Diagna]].{{ref|name=NWOB}}{{ref|name=PGE3O}} The scattering of the Orcs from southeastern High Rock made the river route to the Bay more accessible.{{ref|name=WJOTB}} Over the next several years, with the {{Lore Link|Bjoulsae River}} opened, inter-provincial trade flourishes. Within a decade, the village of {{Lore Link|Wayrest}} is transformed into a major city.{{ref|name=TDC}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 983|{{Lore Link|Evermore}} is founded.|The {{Lore Link|High Rock}} city is established by the {{Lore Link|River Horse Bretons}}, after the {{Lore Link|Bjoulsae River|Bjoulsae}} trade was opened up thanks to the fall of Orsinium.{{ref|name=TRHOKE}}}}

==Eleventh Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 1029|{{Lore Link|High Rock}} is admitted into the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}}.|After the legions of Empress {{Lore Link|Hestra}} deposed King Styriche of Verkarth, Styriche fled west with his infamous Gray Host of vampires and werewolves, pillaging along the way. The Gray Host was halted by the Bangkorai Garrison of High Rock, and Hestra's forces killed the survivors. Impressed by the Bangkorai Garrison's actions, Hestra allowed High Rock to be admitted into the Empire.{{ref|name=BSOHR|{{Cite Book|Bangkorai, Shield of High Rock}}}} {{Lore Link|House Dorell}} of {{Lore Link|Northpoint}} and {{Lore Link|House Montclair}} are granted a barony.{{ref|name=NAA|{{Cite Book|Northpoint: An Assessment}}}}{{ref|name=ONloadHildune|[[Online:Hildune's Secret Refuge (place)|Hildune's Secret Refuge]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 1030|{{Lore Link|The Legend of Red Eagle}}.|{{Lore Link|Reachmen}} under {{Lore Link|Faolan}} put up a strong resistance against the incursion of the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}} into {{Lore Link|the Reach}}, though they are ultimately unsuccessful.{{ref|name=TLORE|{{Cite Book|The Legend of Red Eagle}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 1033|{{Lore Link|Alessian Empire|Alessians}} take on piracy in {{Lore Link|Black Marsh}}.|Empress {{Lore Link|Hestra}}, fed up with the pirates hiding in the depths of {{Lore Link|Black Marsh}}, calls for the head of the most famous brigand, {{Lore Link|Red Bramman|"Red" Bramman}}, as part of a larger campaign. Their incursion provided some of the first outsider accounts on the true culture of the land of the {{Lore Link|Argonian}}s.{{ref|name=PGE3A|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Argonia}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 1051|Vinicius Imbrex becomes Archbishop of {{Lore Link|Chorrol}}.|During his 36 year tenure, he authors a list of "abominations" that should be slain in the name of {{Lore Link|Stendarr}}.{{ref|name=TFA|{{Cite Book|The Four Abominations}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 1085|Earliest known appearance of {{Lore Link|Skingrad}} in records.|Though it is likely much older, Skingrad is first mentioned in ancient genealogical records around this time.{{ref|name=IG|{{Cite Book|Imbel Genealogy}}}}|minor=yes}}

==Twelfth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 1100|The kingdom of {{Lore Link|Wayrest (kingdom)}} is founded.|Wayrest's rapid expansion following the defeat of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}} in [[#1E 980|1E 980]] culminates the merchant power earning the right to be called a kingdom.{{ref|name=WJOTB}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 1102|Warlord {{Lore Link|Ceyran}} dies|A minor {{Lore Link|Ayleid}} warlord rumored to be a devotee of {{Lore Link|Molag Bal}}, he is best known for building and losing three separate dominions during his long life. He was killed by an unknown assassin.{{ref|name=CWRF|{{Cite Book|Ceyran, Warlord of Rulanyil's Fall}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 1152|Earliest known appearance of {{Lore Link|Bravil}} in records.|Though the {{Lore Link|Ayleids}} had long settled the Bravil region,{{ref|name=DOTN|{{Cite Book|Daughter of the Niben}}}} and humans presumably settled the area soon after displacing them, Bravil is first mentioned in genealogical records around this time.{{ref|name=IG}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 1167|Earliest known appearance of {{Lore Link|Bruma}} in records.|Though it is likely much older, Bruma is first mentioned in ancient genealogical records around this time.{{ref|name=IG}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 1188|{{Lore Link|Fervidius Tharn}} becomes Arch-Prelate of the {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}}.{{ref|name=HTON}}|minor=yes}}

==Fourteenth Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 1301|Sack of {{Lore Link|Skywatch}}|The {{Lore Link|Sload}} of {{Lore Link|Thras}} attack the city of Skywatch.{{ref|name=PGE3Sum|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Summerset}}}}}}
{{History Entry
|1E 1306|Hyperagonal Collapse Incident|Twenty-seven {{Lore Link|Psijic Order|Psijic Monks}} are converted into thin films of glistening liminal particles after an incident at the Eldbur Monastery for Mystic Inquiry on {{Lore Link|Summerset Isle}}.{{ref|name=ONloadEldbur |[[Online:Eldbur Ruins|Eldbur Ruins]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}}}

==Fifteenth Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 1427|{{Lore Link|Battle of Duncreigh Bridge}}|The battle between {{Lore Link|Anticlere}} and the neighbouring hamlet of {{Lore Link|Sensford}}. It is celebrated each year by Anticlere with a march down Sensford's main street, usually resulting in many injuries and sometimes brief wars between the towns' knightly orders. The battle ultimately achieves nothing, as both sides continue to boast of their own antique lineage.{{ref|name=PGE1High}}}}

==The {{Lore Link|Dragon Break}}==
The longest Dragon Break ever known, sometimes called the Middle Dawn, is said to take place across much of {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} for one thousand and eight years.{{ref|name=WWYDB|{{Cite Book|Where Were You ... Dragon Broke}}}} Some scholars think the whole matter was the result of an error in a timeline.{{ref|name=TDBR|{{Cite Book|The Dragon Break Re-Examined}}}} It was a "timeless time",{{ref|name=WWYDB}} and from exactly when to when it occurs is unknown.

==Twenty-Third Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 2200|The {{Lore Link|Sload}} release the {{Lore Link|Thrassian Plague}}.{{ref|name=PGE1C}}{{ref|name=PGE1Wild|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|The Wild Region}}}}|For the next several centuries, this brutal plague devastates more than half of {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}'s population, concentrated along the western coast nearest to [[Lore:Thras|Thras]].{{ref|name=PGE3Other}}|minoradd=*Nobility from {{Lore Link|Daggerfall}}, {{Lore Link|Wayrest}}, and {{Lore Link|Sentinel}} escape the plague by fleeing to the {{Lore Link|Isle of Balfiera}}.{{ref|name=TDC}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2260|The {{Lore Link|All Flags Navy}}|A massive fleet, comprising ships from every nation of Tamriel, sails against the Sload in retribution for the Thrassian Plague, sinking their kingdom with mighty magics.{{ref|name=TRHOKE|{{Cite Book|The Royal House of King Eamond}}}}{{ref|name=JOT|{{Cite Book|Journal of Tsona-Ei}}}}}}

==Twenty-Fourth Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 2305|{{Lore Link|High Rock}} secedes from the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}}.|In response to the excesses of the {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}}, High Rock secedes from the Alessian Empire, over a thousand years after being admitted. The {{Lore Link|Bangkorai}} Garrison successfully fends off the wrathful Legions of Piety and Grace under Abbot-General Priscus Mactator, who had been sent to forcibly reclaim the wayward region.{{ref|name=BSOHR}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2321|The {{Lore Link|War of Righteousness}} begins.|The War of Righteousness breaks out when Western {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} isolates itself from the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}} and establishes the {{Lore Link|Colovian Estates}}. This follows years of internal strife within the {{Lore Link|Alessian Order}}'s bloated priesthood and territorial movements to curtail or outlaw the Order's religion.{{ref|name=PGE1C}}{{ref|name=COTF}}{{ref|name=TLST}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2331|The War of Righteousness ends.|After a decade of conflict, the War of Righteousness concludes and the Alessian Order and Empire are dissolved. The Empire's former territories solidify their independence, and its heartland, Cyrodiil, splits into Eastern and Western halves that continue to diverge culturally over the following centuries.{{ref|name=PGE1C}}}}

==Twenty-Eighth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 2702|{{Lore Link|Wayrest City}} moves to Gardners Estate.|The entire population of the city is forced to move into the walled estate of the Gardners as protection against pirates, {{Lore Link|Akavir}}i raiders, and the {{Lore Link|Thrassian Plague}}.{{ref|name=WJOTB}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2703|The First {{Lore Link|Akavir}}i Invasion occurs|[[Lore:Tsaesci (race)|Tsaesci]] of Akavir land in {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}, cutting a swathe of destruction through {{Lore Link|Skyrim}} and {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}, spurring [[Lore:Reman|Reman Cyrodiil]] to rally the {{Lore Link|Colovia|Colovian West}} and {{Lore Link|Nibenay Valley|Nibenean East}}. Cyrodiil is united for the first time in centuries. The unified army defeats the Akaviri at the [[Lore:Pale Pass|Pale Pass]] along the Cyrodiil-Skyrim border. The {{Lore Link|Second Empire}} is established.{{ref|name=PGE3Other}}}} Some sources claim the invasion began in 1E 2700.{{ref|name=LOTD|{{Cite Book|Legacy of the Dragonguard}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2704|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman}} divides {{Lore Link|the Reach}} between {{Lore Link|High Rock}} and {{Lore Link|Skyrim}}|In an attempt to limit the possibility of the {{Lore Link|Reachmen}} uniting against him, Emperor Reman Cyrodiil divided their territory between the provinces of Skyrim and High Rock. The natives resisted fiercely, and there was never a decade when the troops of Solitude or Evermore wouldn't be sent in an attempt to pacify them.{{ref|name=EGTNBatM|{{Cite Book|EGT|Bangkorai}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2714|{{Lore Link|Valenwood}} is conquered by the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}.|After centuries of unrelenting warfare along the border with {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} and a plague from {{Lore Link|Thras}}, the land of the {{Lore Link|Bosmer}} finally falls to the Second Empire.{{ref|name=PGE3V}}}} Although the province became occupied by the {{Lore Link|Imperial Legion}}, they continued to experienced resistance from some natives for several years.{{ref|name=TFARORB|{{Cite Book|The Fall and Rise of Reman's Bluff}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2729|The city-state of {{Lore Link|Southpoint}} was founded on the 1st of Rain's Hand.|After Governor {{Lore Link|Zantonius}} had fought a raid of {{Lore Link|Wood Orcs}} at {{Lore Link|Reman's Bluff}}, he was awarded a plot of land for a fort. But he converted it into a fortifed settlement, which later became Southpoint.{{ref|name=Southpoint|{{Cite Book|The Founding of Southpoint}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2762|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman}} I dies.{{ref|name=OBSancre|Epitaph on a tomb in [[Oblivion:Sancre Tor|Sancre Tor]]}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2762|Emperor {{Lore Link|Kastav}} is crowned.{{ref|name=HKEAYQ|{{Cite Book|High King Emeric Answers Your Questions}}}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2790|Tjurhane Fyrre is born.|The great Ayleid (Wild Elf) sage Tjurhane Fyrre is born.{{ref|name=TWE|{{Cite Book|The Wild Elves}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2794|Reman II is born.{{ref|name=OBSancre}}|minor=yes}}

==Twenty-Ninth Century==
{{History Entry
|1E 2801|Emperor {{Lore Link|Kastav}} takes hostages in {{Lore Link|Skyrim}}.|Emperor Kastav orders the {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} to seize hostages from {{Lore Link|Markarth}} and {{Lore Link|Hroldan}} to ensure that the jarls would meet their conscription quotas. This is the latest in a series of such orders, and the official objections of the Master at {{Lore Link|Sky Haven Temple}} are denied per usual.{{ref|name=AOTD|{{Cite Book|Annals of the Dragonguard}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2804|The {{Lore Link|Winterhold Rebellion}} begins.|A rebellion breaks out in Winterhold. The {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} refuses orders to be sent to suppress the revolt, as it violates their Oath of Allegiance.{{ref|name=AOTD}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2805|[[Lore:Sky Haven Temple|Sky Haven Temple]] is besieged.|An {{Lore Link|Akavir}}i commander named {{Lore Link|Kalion}}, rejected from the {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}}, is sent to suppress the Winterhold Rebellion. The locals soon besiege the Dragonguard's temple in {{Lore Link|the Reach}}, as they do not distinguish between Akaviri. The siege is lifted one year later.{{ref|name=AOTD}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2805|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman II}} is crowned.|Reman II deposes the incompetent {{Lore Link|Kastav}} and is credited with negotiating an end to the Winterhold Rebellion and leading the Second Empire into a golden age. He would later begin a war of conquest against Argonia and Morrowind.{{ref|name=RTLOA|{{Cite Book|Reman II: The Limits of Ambition}}}} Some sources claim his accession took place later in 1E 2812.{{ref|name=OBSancre}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2811|The {{Lore Link|Blackwater War}} begins.|A military expansion is launched by {{Lore Link|Reman II}} against Argonia, eventually resulting in the formation of the {{Lore Link|Imperial}} Province of {{Lore Link|Black Marsh}}.{{ref|name=TBW|{{Cite Book|The Blackwater War}}}}{{ref|name=PGE3A}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2812|Kastav dies.|After living in exile for several years, the deposed emperor dies in the {{Lore Link|Murkmire}} region of Black Marsh.{{ref|name=EKE|{{Cite Book|Emperor Kastav's Epitaph}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2812|Construction of [[Lore:Alduin's Wall|Alduin's Wall]] begins.|The construction of an elaborate sculpture called "Alduin's Wall" at {{Lore Link|Sky Haven Temple}} begins.{{ref|name=AOTD}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2813|Cyrodilic replaces {{Lore Link|Aldmeris|High Elven}}.|Across {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}, Cyrodilic, the precursor to the modern Tamrielic language, replaces High Elven as the language of all legal documents.{{ref|name=TDC}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2815|Reports of {{Lore Link|dragons}} persist in [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]].|Though the number of dragons in {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} had been diminishing since the {{Lore Link|Dragon War}} thousands of years before, the {{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} at {{Lore Link|Sky Haven Temple}} continue to receive sporadic, unverifiable reports of dragons to the east.{{ref|name=AOTD}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2818|Construction of Alduin's Wall is completed.|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman II}} himself arrives at {{Lore Link|Sky Haven Temple}} to officially dedicate the Wall and consecrate the Blood Seal of the temple.{{ref|name=AOTD}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2820|{{Lore Link|Eric of Guis}} lives among the {{Lore Link|Altmer}}.|The emissary of the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}} wrote many vitriolic rants against the denizens of {{Lore Link|Summerset Isle}} during his time there. These were later accepted as "reliable" accounts by human scholars of the {{Lore Link|Third Era}}.{{ref|name=PGE1Ald|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Aldmeri Dominion}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2820|Governor Pomptinus is appointed the ruler of {{Lore Link|Craglorn}} by {{Lore Link|Reman II}}|During his administration he built the sewers beneath {{Lore Link|Elinhir}}, considered to one of his greatest public works undertaken.{{ref|name=ONloadelin|[[Online:Elinhir Sewerworks|Elinhir Sewerworks]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2837|The province of [[Lore:Black Marsh|Black Marsh]] is created.|The {{Lore Link|Second Empire}} succeeds in seizing a large part of the swamplands of Argonia to create the province of Black Marsh. Its provincial status was revoked after the dissolution of the Second Empire.{{ref|name=PGE1Wild}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2840|The {{Lore Link|Four-Score War}} begins.|{{Lore Link|Reman II}} declares war on {{Lore Link|Morrowind}}. The war drags on for 80 years.{{ref|name=OBSancre}}}}{{History Entry
|1E 2851|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman II}} dies.|According to the inscription on his tomb in Sancre Tor, he dies "in battle against the {{Lore Link|Dunmer|Dark Elves}}".{{ref|name=OBSancre}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2851|Emperor {{Lore Link|Brazollus Dor}} is crowned.|The little-known Brazollus Dor disdains the responsibilities of governing, preferring to spend his time at his country estate near {{Lore Link|Skingrad}} while his Potentate, {{Lore Link|Sidri-Ashak}}, handled all matters of state. This is said to be the emperor's wisest decision, as Sidri-Ashak proved to be a gifted administrator and man of integrity.{{ref|name=HKEAYQ}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2871|{{Lore Link|Dragonguard}} slay the {{Lore Link|dragon}} {{Lore Link|Krahjotdaan}} in the southern {{Lore Link|Jerall Mountains}}.{{ref|name=AOD|{{Cite Book|Atlas of Dragons}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2877|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman III}} is crowned.{{ref|name=OBSancre}}}}
{{History Entry|1E 2899|Empress {{Lore Link|Tavia}} is accused of treason and imprisoned in {{Lore Link|Black Marsh}}.|{{Lore Link|Reman III}}, the last emperor of the {{Lore Link|Reman Dynasty}}, sends his wife to a prison in {{Lore Link|Gideon}}.{{ref|name=PGE3A}}|minor=yes}}

==Thirtieth Century==
{{History Entry|1E 2902|Reign of Jinninji-ri, {{Lore Link|Mane}} of {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}}.{{ref|name=ONGShazah|[[Online:Shazah|Shazah]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2906|The Khuras mines collapse.|The extensive mines in {{Lore Link|Glenumbra}}, once famous as a source of crystals and gems, are abandoned after a ceiling collapse renders most of the tunnels inaccessible.{{ref|name=ONloadkhu|[[Online:Mines of Khuras|Mines of Khuras]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry
|1E 2911|The {{Lore Link|War of the Uvichil}} begins.{{ref|name=PGE3Sum}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2917|The War of the Uvichil ends.{{ref|name=PGE3Sum}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2920|{{Lore Link|Gilverdale}} is destroyed by {{Lore Link|Molag Bal}}.|The {{Lore Link|Daedric Princes|Daedric Prince}} is summoned by an amateur to destroy the entire settlement.{{ref|name=2920L|{{Cite Book|2920, The Last Year of the First Era}}}}|minor=yes}}
{{History Entry|1E 2920|The last year of the First Era.|Emperor {{Lore Link|Reman III}} and his son and heir Prince [[Lore:Juilek|Juilek]] are both assassinated by the [[Lore:Morag Tong|Morag Tong]]. This follows the sacking of the {{Lore Link|Dunmer}} fortress of Black Gate, breaking a truce between the Empire and Morrowind. [[Lore:Akaviri Potentate|Akaviri Potentate]] [[Lore:Versidue-Shaie|Versidue-Shaie]] assumes the Imperial Throne, and declares the start of the [[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]].{{ref|name=2920L}}
*[[Lore:Mehrunes Dagon|Mehrunes Dagon]] destroys [[Lore:Mournhold|Mournhold]]. [[Lore:Almalexia (god)|Almalexia]] and [[Lore:Sotha Sil|Sotha Sil]] are too late to prevent its destruction, but manage to banish Mehrunes Dagon back to [[Lore:Oblivion|Oblivion]].{{ref|name=2920L}}}}<noinclude>

==Notes==
*{{LNote|nb1|1.|Several sources conflate Harald's reign with his entire life. The book ''[[Lore:Frontier, Conquest|Frontier, Conquest]]'' accredits the years {{Year|1E 113}} to 221 to him (108 years), and both the ''Daggerfall Chronicles'' and [[Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Skyrim|1st Edition Pocket Guide]] state that he died at the age of 108, meaning that 1E 113 must have been the year of his birth. The [[Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Skyrim|3rd Edition Pocket Guide]] also states "In the 113th year of the First Era, the entirety of modern Skyrim was under the reign of King Harald", suggesting his birth and reign coincided. A [[:File:SR-misc-Harald Plaque.png|stone etching]] in [[Lore:Windhelm|Windhelm]] states that his rule in {{Lore Link|Windhelm}} began in 1E 143.}}
*{{LNote|nb2|2.|''The Daggerfall Chronicles'' has some differences in its timeline. It refers to Vrage as the youngest son of Hjalmer. In the light of the clear statement in ''[[Lore:King Edward, Part X|King Edward, Part X]]'', it seems this is a mistake and both were sons of Harald. It also traces the Nords' expulsion from Morrowind and High Rock to 1E 401.}}
*{{LNote|nb3|3.|Yokudan dates are usually given in books in "the old way of reckoning". Using information from [[Lore:Books by Author#Destri Melarg|Destri Melarg]]'s book ''[[Lore:Divad the Singer|Divad the Singer]]'', however, any Yokudan date can be translated to its Tamrielic equivalent by subtracting 1636. It should be noted that these dates may not be completely accurate, since Melarg isn't exact in his statement.}}
*{{LNote|nb4|4.|There's some suggestion that the events surrounding Gaiden Shinji and the Siege of Orsinium occurred several centuries before the tenth century. [[Skyrim:Loading Screens|A loading screen in Skyrim]] dates Shinji's Credo back to 1E 490, not 946. ''{{Lore Link|Poison Song I|The Poison Song, Book I}}'' takes place in 1E 675, but treats the Siege of Orsinium as having already occurred.}}

==References==
<references/>
{{UOL}}
<references group=UOL/></noinclude>

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Lore:Nede

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<noinclude>{{Trail|Races}}{{Old Lore Transclusion}}[[Category:Lore-All Terms]]{{TOCright}}</noinclude>
:''"To the heavens above, we raise our eyes, our hands, and our hearts."'' — Sample from a Nedic prayer{{ref|name=DNP|{{Cite Book|Defaced Nedic Prayer Book}}}}
The [[Lore:Nede|Nede]]s (also known as the '''Nedic peoples''') were a [[Lore:Man|human]] race of unknown extraction, who inhabited much of Tamriel during the [[Lore:Merethic Era|Merethic]] and [[Lore:First Era|First Era]]s. The society of the Nedes who lived in the Deathlands region largely revolved around the study of the [[Lore:Astronomy#Constellations|constellations]], and worship of beings known as the [[Lore:Celestial|Celestial]]s. Nedic culture experienced a sharp decline over several centuries as they began to assimilate into other cultures, before being completely exterminated by the [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]]n invasion of the Deathlands.{{ref|name=DNP}}{{ref|name=NOTD|{{Cite Book|Nedes of the Deathlands}}}}{{ref|name=NPF|{{Cite Book|Fragments from a Nedic poem, title unknown}}}}{{ref|name=MMS|{{Cite Book|Mysteries of the Mundus Stones}}}}{{FMI}}<noinclude>
==History==
===Origins===
[[File:ON-concept-Celestial tapestry.png|thumb|right|A Nedic tapestry depicting the Celestials]]
Although the origins of the Nedic peoples are hotly debated, the most widely accepted theory is that they came from [[Lore:Atmora|Atmora]] in many waves, and after arriving in what is now [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]] they soon began to spread throughout much of northern Tamriel.{{ref|name=PGE3C|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|All the Eras of Man}}}}{{Ref|name=LadyClarisse|{{Cite Book|Lady Clarisse Laurent Answers Your Questions}}}}{{Ref|name=AbnurTharn|{{Cite Book|Chancellor Abnur Tharn Answers Your Questions}}}} While their beginnings are murky, the earliest known traces of human presence in Tamriel have been dated to the mid-Merethic Era circa {{Year|ME 1000}}.{{ref|name=FC|{{Cite Book|Frontier, Conquest}}}} For the Nedes, Tamriel became a great mixing cauldron—some Atmoran practices were retained, but many were lost.{{Ref|name=AbnurTharn}}

There are few sources to corroborate the Nedes originating directly from Tamriel. The [[ON:Nord|Nords]] believe men were first formed on [[Lore:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]] when the sky breathed onto the land, hence the Song of Return partially referring to the Nords' return to what they believe was their original homeland.{{ref|name=COTS|{{Cite Book|Children of the Sky}}}}{{ref|name=PGE1S|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Skyrim}}}}

===The Deathlands of Volenfell===
While Nedes inhabited several of the modern provinces, it was in the sun-baked wastelands of [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]] which they knew as the Deathlands that Nedic civilization truly thrived. The Duraki Nedes faced numerous foreign invasions, including both the Ayleids and the Dwemer, who dismissed the Duraki as backward savages to justify subjugating them. These Nedes also frequently clashed with their neighbors, the primitive stone-worshipping [[Lore:Iron Orc|Iron Orcs]].{{ref|name=NOTD}}{{ref|name=OOT|{{Cite Book|Orcs of Tamriel, Volume 3}}}}

Despite these frequent conflicts, Duraki culture prospered for centuries in the Deathlands. The Nedes were known to be skilled in masonry, with their bustling cities constructed largely from stone. However, little of this stonework remains, as what wasn't completely destroyed by the invading [[Lore:Ra Gada|Ra Gada]] was often appropriated and modified beyond recognition.{{ref|name=HRC|{{Cite Book|Castles and Coffers Volume III: Hel Ra Citadel}}}} While the Duraki were known to be devout star worshippers, during the Yokudan invasion their prayers went unanswered, and many looked to other sources for salvation. This did them little good and the Nedes quickly fell to the Yokudan horde, vanishing from the Deathlands forever.{{ref|name=NOTD}}[[File:ON-place-Skyreach Pinnacle.jpg|thumb|left|One of the ruined Nedic towers of Skyreach]]

===Under the Elves===
In many lands the Nedes existed as a minority, and had no choice but to co-exist relatively peacefully alongside [[Lore:Mer|elves]], oftentimes in a subordinate position. Those Nedes who settled in [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]] stumbled upon the highly sophisticated culture of the [[Lore:Direnni|Direnni]] elves, and quickly became vassals under the rule of the elves.{{ref|name=PGE3HR|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|High Rock}}}} Under the [[Lore:Direnni Hegemony|Direnni Hegemony]], the Nedes lived at the bottom of a strict feudal hierarchy with the elven nobles positioned on top. The Direnni enjoyed many privileges over their human subjects including the 'Perquisite of Coition', the right to engage in recreational intercourse with any Nede of their choice.{{ref|name=TBMOP|{{Cite Book|The Bretons: Mongrels or Paragons?}}}}

Many Direnni took advantage of this and took on Nedic concubines, which often resulted in the birth of mixed-race offspring whom they referred to as {{Future Link|Manmer}}, or [[Lore:Breton|Breton]]s. While the Bretons were not officially recognized as members of the noble houses they descended from, they often occupied social positions above those of the Nedic peasantry. Eventually this arrangement was formalized with the creation of a new caste between the Elves and the Nedes, in which the Bretons enjoyed a comfortable position in society, but were forbidden from marrying Elves in an attempt to preserve the Elven race. Eventually after generations of interbreeding with their Nedic underlings the Bretons were completely assimilated, birthing a new culture with those of the most elven blood on top. In the late First Era the Direnni Hegemony found itself under attack by both the fanatical [[Lore:Alessian Order|Alessian Order]] and the Kingdom of Skyrim. Although the elves managed to repel the invaders, they were left crippled and demoralized, and completely withdrew to the [[Lore:Isle of Balfiera|Isle of Balfiera]], passing control over the region to the Bretons.{{ref|name=TBMOP}}

While relations between the Nedes and the Direnni were cordial if rather unbalanced, the Nedes suffered greatly under the tyranny of the Daedra-worshipping [[Lore:Ayleid|Ayleids]]. The Ayleids would commonly stage raids on Nedic lands, enslaving those whom they captured.{{ref|name=NOTD}} Once in Ayleid lands the Nedes were held in bondage alongside members of various other human races, forced to work in a variety of menial jobs, such as agriculture and maintaining infrastructure. In Ayleid kingdoms under the grip of more malevolent Daedric princes, human slaves were subjected to horrific cruelties. In the year {{Year|1E 242}}, the Slave Queen [[Lore:Alessia|Alessia]] led a rebellion against the Ayleid slave masters, resulting in the emancipation of all slaves within the Ayleidic empire. While the slaves were freed, centuries of Ayleidic suppression and intermingling with other enslaved groups had taken their toll on Nedic culture in Cyrodiil and all that remained were their mixed race descendants, the [[Lore:Imperial|Imperials]].{{ref|name=TA|{{Cite Book|The Adabal-a}}}}{{ref|name=TSOP|{{Cite Book|The Song of Pelinal}}}}{{ref|name=PGE3C|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Cyrodiil}}}}

The Nedes also maintained a presence in Skyrim, but little is known of their relations with the native [[Lore:Snow Elf|Falmer]] or the [[Lore:Nord|Atmorans]] who replaced them. The Nedes of Skyrim were believed to be a more primitive people than their cousins in other lands, however their skill in metallurgy was known to be quite advanced.{{ref|name=NDS|{{Cite Book|Nedic Dueling Swords}}}} They were generally nomads but still had some form of a religious congregation (worshipping [[Lore:Arkay|Arkay]] instead of the Atmoran [[Lore:Orkey|Orkey]]).{{Ref|name=LamaeBal|[[ON:Lamae Bal|Lamae Bal]]'s dialogue and flashbacks in [[ON:Scion of the Blood Matron|Scion of the Blood Matron]]}}

The Nedes spread all across northern Tamriel, and once had a presence in [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]] during the Merethic,{{ref|name=FC}}{{Ref|name=WotP|[[ON:Window on the Past|Window on the Past]] quest}} with tribes that marched and plundered across the land.{{Ref|name=Vunal|Dialogue with [[ON:Sorcerer Vunal|Sorcerer Vunal]]}} It is recorded in Dunmeri texts that these Nedes waged at least {{Future Link|Nede-Chimer War|one bloody war}} against the ancient [[Lore:Chimer|Chimer]] in the early First Era, causing mass death and destruction and refusing diplomatic resolutions with the Chimer. After a few short years they controlled most of the modern-day [[Lore:Stonefalls|Stonefalls]] and cut off reinforcements from the north, before being stopped by the so-called [[Lore:Brothers of Strife (creature)|Brothers of Strife]], but at a terrible cost for the Chimer.{{ref|name=TBoS|{{Cite Book|The Brothers of Strife}}}}{{Ref|name=Vunal}}

===Disappearance and Legacy===
:''"If we will die, we will die together."'' — Fragment from a Nede's journal{{ref|name=WJ|{{Cite Book|Waterlogged Journal}}}}
Over the centuries, various events caused Tamriel's Nedic population to dwindle, such as when the Cyro-Nords captured Nedic ports along the {{Future Link|Strident Coast}} (a somewhat unknown region presumably around the [[Lore:Gold Coast|Gold Coast]] of Cyrodiil and the southern coastline of Hammerfell).{{Ref|name=PGE1C|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Cyrodiil}}}} The Nedes who inhabited the isle of [[Lore:Herne|Herne]] had long struggled against the elves prior to the Ra Gada, and though they fought a courageous battle under their Warchief Haakon, they fell before the Yokudan onslaught.{{Ref|name=Farvad|Dialogue with [[ON:Throne Keeper Farvad|Throne Keeper Farvad]]}} By the ninth century of the First Era, Nedic culture was confined to the deserts of [[Lore:Volenfell|Volenfell]].

In the year {{Year|1E 808}}{{Ref|name=HOTIB|{{Cite Book|Holidays of the Iliac Bay}}}} the "warrior wave" of the Yokudans, the Ra Gada, made landfall in Tamriel. Their arrival would deal a fatal blow to the Nedes. The Ra Gada, under the leadership of the sadistic Emperor [[Lore:Tarish-Zi|Tarish-Zi]], quickly swarmed the province, killing or enslaving all that they crossed. Soon the Yokudans had displaced the Nedes everywhere but in the remote region of [[Lore:Craglorn|Craglorn]]. There, many Nedes embittered by the decline of their culture began to turn to sources of spiritual guidance other than the stars.{{ref|name=DNP}}{{ref|name=WJ}} This did them little good when the Ra Gada reached Craglorn, and the Nedes were dispatched as quickly as they had been elsewhere. After years of struggle, Nedic culture had finally met its end, although some accounts claim it was already fading prior to the Ra-Gada.{{ref|name=NOTD}}

Though the Nedes no longer exist as a distinct people, much of their culture survives in the societies of their descendants. Even in Hammerfell much of the Nedic religion, custom, and language was adopted by their annihilators, the [[Lore:Redguard|Redguard]]s.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}} In [[Lore:Nibenay|Nibenay]] the great old Nedic traditions were maintained, remaining as one of the people true to the original Nedic culture. The Nibenese people are said to be the closest thing to a pure-bred Nede still remaining on Tamriel.{{Ref|name=AbnurTharn}}

==Tribes==
[[File:ON-npc-High King Durac 02.jpg|thumb|right|High King Durac, who presided over the council of Nedic kings from other tribes]]
The Nedic tribes did not all come to Tamriel at once; they came in waves, over a period of centuries, one tribal group at a time. These tribes were far from homogeneous; though all came from [[Lore:Atmora|Atmora]], they all emigrated from different parts of it at different times. Each tribe came with its own culture, and their cultures were further mixed and admixed after arrival in Tamriel. Some were as different from each other as [[Lore:Reachman|Reachman]] and [[Lore:Redguard|Redguard]].{{Ref|name=LadyClarisse}}{{Ref|name=AbnurTharn}}

The catch-all term 'Nede' is applied so broadly to [[Lore:Merethic Era|Merethic-Era]] humans as to be almost worthless.{{Ref|name=LadyClarisse}} The term 'Nedic Tribes' actually covers a wide panoply of different human cultures from different parts of Atmora, with a variety of traditions and practices.{{Ref|name=AbnurTharn}} Tribes were led by kings and warchiefs, ruling different parts of the Nedic realm, and were known to meet in councils with other Nedic rulers.{{Ref|name=SE|{{Cite Book|Skyreach Explorer}}}} They'd even diverged genetically, such as those in High Rock mixing with elves to the point of resembling them and the Kothri of Black Marsh developing silver-colored skin. The known names given to groups of Merethic Era humans are as follows, with their status as solely being Nedes considered to be very general:

* The '''{{Future Link|Al-Gemha}}''' and '''{{Future Link|Al-Hared}}''' were among the men herded as slaves by the Ayleids from across all the [[Lore:Niben|Niben]] in [[Lore:Cyrod|Cyrod]].{{ref|name=TA}}
* The '''{{Future Link|Duraki}}''' were a tribe that resided in [[Lore:Craglorn|Craglorn]] and had their seat of power at Skyreach.{{Ref|name=SE}}{{Ref|name=NedicArmorPack|[[Online:Costumes#Nedic Duraki Armor|Nedic Duraki]], [[ON:Costumes#Nedic Keptu Armor|Keptu]], and [[ON:Costumes#Nedic Perena Armor|Perena Armor]] costume and [[Lore:Elder Scrolls Online - Crown Store Showcase/Costumes#Nedic Warrior Pack|showcase]] descriptions}}{{ref|name=SD|{{Cite Book|Saradin's Diary}}}} Their warriors followed the ancient Nedic High King {{Future Link|Durac}} against the invading {{Future Link|Anka-Ra}}, but met their downfall after {{Future Link|Virmaril}} the Betrayer slew the council of nedic kings and the tribe fell to the Yokudan onslaught.{{ref|name=VJ|{{Cite Book|Virmaril's Journal}}}}{{ref|name=WSJ|{{Cite Book|Watcher Shavmar's Journal}}}}
* The {{Future Link|Men-of-ge|Men-of-'''Ge'''}} were among the men herded as slaves from across the Niben by the Ayleids, who were eventually "destroyed" when the Flower King {{Future Link|Nilichi}} made great sacrifice to a long-forgotten insect god.{{ref|name=TA}}
* The '''[[Lore:Horwalli|Horwalli]]''' were a tribe in [[Lore:Black Marsh|Black Marsh]] that may have been sent there as refugees or prisoners, or settled along the coastal waterways and adapted to the environment. They were believed to have been wiped out by the [[Lore:Knahaten Flu|Knahaten Flu]].{{ref|name=PGE3BM|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Black Marsh}}}}
* The '''[[Lore:Keptu|Keptu]]''' or {{Future Link|Men-of-ket|Men-of-'''Ket'''}} were a tribe who settled in [[Lore:Sunforge|central]] [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]]{{ref|name=CM12:B|{{Cite Book|Crafting Motifs 12: Barbaric}}}} and the [[Lore:Jerall Mountains|Jerall Mountains]] bordering Cyrodiil.{{Ref|name=LadyClarisse}}{{ref|name=NNoRO|{{Cite Book|Nicolard's Notes on Ruin Origins}}}} They are inconsistently described as being Nedes{{Ref|name=NedicArmorPack}} and separate from Nedes,{{ref|name=TSOP}} likely a repercussion of the usage of "Nede" as a catch-all term and oversight of their differences with the Perena.{{Ref|name=LadyClarisse}}{{ref|name=TA}}
* The '''[[Lore:Kothringi|Kothri]]''' were silver-skinned men indigenous to Black Marsh recorded as being enslaved by the Ayleids prior to the rebellion.{{ref|name=TA}} They were the most notable of the Black Marsh tribes and were wiped out by the Knahaten Flu.{{ref|name=PGE3BM}}
* The {{Future Link|Men-of-kreath|Men-of-'''Kreath'''}} were a northern clan that ruled over the forest region,{{ref|name=VJ}} presumably [[Lore:Falkreath Hold|Falkreath]],{{ref|name=TA}} under king Kestic.{{ref|name=SD}} They were imported from the north by the Ayleids as slave labor, suggesting they eventually became the Nords.{{ref|name=TA}}
* The name "'''{{Future Link|Manmer}}i'''" was given by the Nords to proto-[[Lore:Breton|Breton]]s that were remnants of an earlier lost Nedic tribe in [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]]. The early Nedic people who arrived in the region stumbled upon the highly sophisticated Aldmeri culture, and were quickly overwhelmed and absorbed, becoming a "mongrel race" of elf and human.{{ref|name=PGE3HR}}
* The '''[[Lore:Orma|Orma]]''' were a tribe of men in Black Marsh.{{ref|name=PGE3BM}} They were born without eyes, becoming masters of their other senses,{{Ref|name=TLYFE:2920|{{Cite Book|2920, The Last Year of the First Era}}}} and survived into the First and Second eras before presumably being wiped out by the Knahaten Flu.{{ref|name=PGE3BM}}
* The '''{{Future Link|Perena}}''' were a Nedic tribe found in Cyrodiil.{{Ref|name=LadyClarisse}}{{Ref|name=NedicArmorPack}} They practiced the observation of the stars in the night sky, according to ancient texts such as the Perenaal Fragment.{{Ref|name=SE}}
* The '''[[Lore:Yespest|Yespest]]''' were an indigenous tribe known to be active in the region around [[Lore:Blackrose|Blackrose]] in Black Marsh, likely responsible the stone monuments there that in turn took inspiration from the architecture of the {{Future Link|Barsaebic Ayleids}}.{{ref|name=PGE0|{{Cite Book|The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Black Marsh}}}} They were believed to have been wiped out by the Knahaten Flu.{{ref|name=PGE3BM}}

==Notes==
* ''[[Lore:The Song of Pelinal, v 4|The Song of Pelinal]]'' mentions "Zuathas the Clever-Cutting Man", a Nedic healer with a keptu name who treated [[Lore:Morihaus|Morihaus]] when he was wounded.
* According to ''[[Lore:Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie|Opusculus Lamae Bal ta Mezzamortie]]'', [[Lore:Lamae Beolfag|Lamae Beolfag]] was a Nedic woman who begat abominations, from which came the [[Lore:Vampire|Vampire]]s, after she was raped by [[Lore:Molag Bal|Molag Bal]].

==See Also==
* For game-specific information, see the [[Online:Nede|ESO article]].

===Books===
* {{Book Link|Before the Ages of Man}}
* {{Book Link|Blasius' Unfinished Manuscript}}
* {{Book Link|The Brothers of Strife}}
* {{Book Link|Defaced Nedic Prayer Book}}
* {{Book Link|Fragments from a Nedic poem, title unknown}}
* {{Book Link|Frontier, Conquest}}
* {{Book Link|Journal of Culanwe}}
* {{Book Link|Mysteries of the Mundus Stones}}
* {{Book Link|Nedes of the Deathlands}}
* {{Book Link|Nedic Dueling Swords}}
* {{Book Link|Nirncrux: A Study}}
* {{Book Link|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Hammerfell}}
* {{Book Link|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/All the Eras of Man}}
* {{Book Link|Saradin's Diary}}
* {{Book Link|Skyreach Explorer}}
* {{Book Link|Virmaril's Journal}}
* {{Book Link|Waterlogged Journal}}

==References==
<references/>
{{Races}}</noinclude>

Lore:Redguard

2019-11-04T01:08:33Z

The Silencer: moved

<noinclude>{{Trail|Races}}{{Old Lore Transclusion}}[[Category:Lore-All Terms]]</noinclude>{{{image|[[File:LO-race-Redguard.png|frame|Illustration of a typical Redguard male]]}}}
[[Lore:Redguard|Redguard]]s are the most naturally talented warriors in [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]]. The dark-skinned, wiry-haired people of [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]] seem born to battle, though their pride and fierce independence of spirit makes them more suitable as scouts or skirmishers, or as free-ranging heroes and adventurers, than as rank-and-file soldiers.{{ref|[[Morrowind:Redguard|Morrowind racial description]]}}{{ref|name=PGE1Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}} In addition to their cultural affinities for many armor styles and weapons (particularly swords), Redguards are also physically blessed with hardy constitutions, resistance to poison, and quickness of foot. Unlike most other [[Lore:Men|human]] races, they are not believed to have any connection with the ancestral [[Lore:Nord|Nord]]ic homeland of [[Lore:Atmora|Atmora]].{{FMI}}<noinclude>

==History==
[[File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|right|thumb|300px|A map showing [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]], the ancient home of the Redguards]][[File:LO-map-Hammerfell (Oblivion Codex).jpg|right|thumb|300px|[[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]], the current home of the Redguards]][[File:RG-map-Stros M'Kai-1024x768.png|right|thumb|300px|A map of [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]]]][[File:ON-concept-Redguard sword.png|thumb|right]]
Redguards (formerly "Yokudans") hail from the western continent of [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]], which sank into the sea in ancient times. The cause of Yokuda's sinking is attributed either to natural factors (earthquakes, tsunamis, or volcanic eruptions) or to the revenge of a defeated band of [[Lore:Ansei|Ansei]] called the Hiradirge. Upon the sinking of their homeland around {{Year|1E 792}}, the Yokudan fleet set sail to the east, eventually arriving in what would later be called [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]].{{ref|name=PGE3Other|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Other Lands}}}} The bulk of the refugees remained on the island of [[Lore:Herne|Herne]] while the [[Lore:Ra Gada|Ra Gada]], the Warrior Wave, continued on to mainland Hammerfell in {{Year|1E 808}}.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}{{ref|name=HOTIB|{{Cite Book|Holidays of the Iliac Bay}}}}

[[Lore:Imperial|Imperial]] scholars concluded that the term "Redguard" originated as a phonetic corruption of "Ra Gada".{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} However, Redguard myth considers it a legacy of the [[Lore:War of the Singers|War of the Singers]], a series of seven battles in Yokuda circa {{Year|1E 780}}, shortly before the continent was destroyed. Their legends say the war was fought between the army of the Last Emperor [[Lore:Hira|Hira]] and the greatly outnumbered Ansei (presumably the Hiradirge), who sought out the leadership of Lord [[Lore:Frandar Hunding|Frandar Hunding]] at the onset. Hunding led the Ansei to victory using his "Hammer and the Anvil" strategy, but at great cost. Though they spared the land from Hira's tyranny, they had to leave it afterwards, for when Hunding's strategy reached fruition in the final battle (i.e., when the proverbial hammer fell), more than three hundred thousand people were killed. In the eyes of the citizenry, their guardians were red with blood. So they left Yokuda, sailing across the [[Lore:Eltheric Ocean|Eltheric Ocean]], and took on new names to commemorate their final battle: their new land was Hammerfell, and their new name was the Redguards.{{ref|name=RTHATH|{{Cite Book|Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes}}}}{{ref|name=DTS|{{Cite Book|Divad the Singer}}}} As Yokuda sank into the sea, the Yokudans were forced to follow them to this new land or perish.{{ref|name=PGE3Other}}

These were not the first Redguards to arrive in Tamriel, however. The {{Future Link|Horsemen}} of the [[Lore:Rivenspire|Rivenspire]] region of [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]], long a myth, were confirmed to exist by scholars in the [[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]]. They are believed to have migrated there from the Yokudan island of [[Lore:Akos Kasaz|Akos Kasaz]] sometime in the early sixth century of the [[Lore:First Era|First Era]].{{ref|name=THFOS|{{Cite Book|The Horse-Folk of Silverhoof}}}}

===The Ra Gada Invasion===
When they arrived, the Ra Gada attacked all settlements of [[Lore:Nede|Nede]] and [[Lore:Mer|Mer]] along with the native beasts, and conscripted those they did not slay as laborers or servants for the "warrior-sailors" of the Ra Gada.{{ref|name=STJOA|{{Cite Book|Sentinel, the Jewel of Alik'r}}}} After only a few brutal months, the Ra Gada had established a strong presence along the western shores of Hammerfell, disrupting and replacing the [[Lore:Imperial|Imperial]] and [[Lore:Nord|Nord]]ic raiders who had preyed upon the area for centuries.{{ref|name=PGE1C|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Cyrodiil}}}} From the footholds along the coast, they continued to launch assault after assault, eventually succeeding in driving off the [[Lore:Orc|Orc]]s and making way for the High King and the Yokudan royalty, known as the [[Lore:Na-Totambu|Na-Totambu]], to safely arrive in Hammerfell.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Hammerfell}}}} All the old cities of the [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]] in the region, with a few exceptions, are now the cities of today's modern Hammerfell.{{ref|name=NFRH|{{Cite Book|Notes For Redguard History}}}}

Despite how long ago they arrived, the Redguards are still the comparative newcomers: every other modern race had already emerged before the Ra Gada arrived at Tamriel's shores.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}} And despite the advanced culture they brought with them, their martial nature and the savagery with which they established themselves in Tamriel earned them a longstanding reputation as barbarians and cutthroats.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}

The early Redguards faced a [[Lore:Goblin|Goblin]] invasion, but drove them away. Later in the First Era, the Redguards came under threat from a second, seemingly unstoppable invasion of giant goblins. However, they were thwarted thanks to the leadership of [[Lore:Hallin|Derik Hallin]], who restored the teachings of [[Lore:Frandar Hunding|Frandar Hunding]] and his [[#The Book of Circles|Book of Circles]], which have remained an integral part of Redguard life ever since.{{ref|name=NFRH}}

===Foreign Relations===
The Redguards scorned their neighbors initially, and didn't even trade with them until after their worth had been proven in the successful Siege of [[Lore:Orsinium|Orsinium]] circa {{Year|1E 980}}.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}}{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell|{{Cite Book|EGT|Hammerfell}}}} Their own native language, Yoku, was almost entirely replaced to help stabilize foreign trade,{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} although the language is still spoken.{{ref|name=LOS|{{Cite Book|Lord of Souls}}}} They were absorbed into the [[Lore:Second Empire|Second Empire]] sometime during the [[Lore:Reman Dynasty|Reman Dynasty]].{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}

During the [[Lore:Alliance War|Alliance War]] circa {{Year|2E 582}}, they joined with the Orcs and [[Lore:Breton|Breton]]s in forming the [[Lore:Daggerfall Covenant|Daggerfall Covenant]]. The strongest support for the Covenant centered in the city-states of [[Lore:Hallin's Stand|Hallin's Stand]] and [[Lore:Sentinel|Sentinel]], with much of the outer regions of Redguard society remaining distrustful of their new allies.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}

Sometime during the [[Lore:Interregnum|Interregnum]] of the Second Era, the fragile administrative republic established in Hammerfell by the Second Empire collapsed, and control of the province reverted back to the traditional, hereditary monarchy of the Na-Totambu. The new High King of Hammerfell moved his seat of power from the old capital [[Lore:Hegathe|Hegathe]] to the more prosperous northern city of Sentinel. This ignited tension between [[#Forebears and Crowns|Forebears and Crowns]], as Sentinel was a Forebear city. Upon the death of High King [[Lore:Thassad II|Thassad II]] in {{Year|2E 862}}, the people of Sentinel retook their city by force. Crown Prince [[Lore:A'tor|A'tor]] journeyed to the city to seek vengeance, leading to one of the bloodiest massacres in Tamrielic history.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}

The bloody civil war which ensued led to Hammerfell being easily absorbed by the [[Lore:Third Empire|Septim Empire]] in {{Year|2E 864}}, though the Empire soon had to make some significant concessions of power following a successful revolt in [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]].{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}} Redguards would become more outgoing under the Septim Empire, and many branched out into other parts of Tamriel. Redguards reportedly served as mercenaries under the [[Lore:Camoran Usurper|Camoran Usurper]] around {{Year|3E 267}}.{{ref|name=TFOTU|{{Cite Book|The Fall of the Usurper}}}}

[[Lore:Camaron|King Camaron]] of Sentinel would be killed during the [[Lore:War of Betony|War of Betony]] in {{Year|3E 403}}, a short but vicious land dispute with [[Lore:Daggerfall (kingdom)|Daggerfall]] over the eponymous island of [[Lore:Betony|Betony]].{{ref|name=NWOB|{{Cite Book|Newgate's War Of Betony}}}} The aftermath brought a lot of bad blood between the Bretons and Redguards of the [[Lore:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay]] region.{{ref|name=DFC|Tamriel's Timeline, The Daggerfall Chronicles — ''Ronald Wartow''}}{{ref|name=FWOB|{{Cite Book|Fav'te's War Of Betony}}}} Following the [[Lore:Warp in the West|Miracle of Peace]], Sentinel (then under [[Lore:Lhotun|King Lhotun]]) greatly expanded to take over the entire northern coast of Hammerfell.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}}{{ref|name=TWITW|{{Cite Book|The Warp in the West}}}} It's known that near the end of the [[Lore:Third Era|Third Era]], the Redguards of eastern Hammerfell harbored a fierce grudge against [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]], and yearned for a chance to take back land that was seized during the [[Lore:War of the Bend'r-mahk|War of the Bend'r-mahk]] in {{Year|3E 396}}.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}}{{ref|name=DFC}}

===Defiance in the Great War===
In {{Year|4E 171}}, the [[Lore:Great War|Great War]] erupted when the [[Lore:Aldmeri Dominion|Aldmeri Dominion]] demanded, in part, that the new Emperor [[Lore:Titus Mede II|Titus Mede II]] cede large tracts of southern Hammerfell to them. The Empire fought back, but ultimately made the concession as part of the [[Lore:White-Gold Concordat|White-Gold Concordat]] of {{Year|4E 175}}. Though the rest of the Empire left them to their fate, the Redguards refused to accept this and suffered mass devastation all over southern Hammerfell in their long, though successful, repulsion of the Dominion's invasion.{{ref|name=TGW|{{Cite Book|The Great War (book)}}}} Many Redguards remain bitter over the Empire's abandonment and believe that their triumph is proof that the Concordat was a mistake, and the Empire would have succeeded had it fought on.{{ref|name=TGW}}{{ref|name=LJ|{{Cite Book|Lu-ah's Journal|ns_base=Skyrim}}}}
[[File:RG-misc-Sand Map.jpg|right|frame|A Yokudan sand map]]

==Society==
Like all races, Redguards have been shaped by their home. Since their arrival, they have been few in number, relative to the other races of Tamriel.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}} Their Yokudan heritage left them with advanced seafaring, agricultural, military and even astronomical knowledge that allowed them to thrive in a place where others merely hoped to survive. Redguard society is extremely martial, and nearly everyone is expected to have a grasp of basic weaponry and combat, although only the rulers are generally expected to have detailed knowledge of strategy, formations and tactics. Only the strongest, fastest and smartest Redguards are accepted into the demanding military (which consists mainly of various knightly orders; Redguards don't traditionally have a standing army), and they are expected to prove themselves worthy by facing death.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} Even their entertainment, like snake charming, bears some risk to it.{{ref|name=MOT1|{{Cite Book|Mystery of Talara, v 1}}}}

The practice of magic has generally been frowned upon dating back to at least the Second Era, and outsiders are not tolerated in many parts of Hammerfell.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}{{ref|name=Redguard|[[Redguard:Cyrus|Cyrus]]' dialogue in [[Redguard:N'Gasta#Necromancy|Redguard]]}} Many believe that no "true" Redguard would stoop to using magic, considering it a weakness.{{ref|name=ONSN|[[Online:Smith Nabeenam|Smith Nabeenam]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Certain schools that teach the Way of the Sword forbid students to use magic and enchanted weapons.{{ref|name=ONIman|[[Online:Iman|Iman]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} By the Third Era, spellcasters were shunned in Hammerfell, believing them to be wicked individuals who steal souls and tamper with minds.{{ref|name=ONTray|[[Oblivion:Trayvond the Redguard|Trayvond the Redguard]]'s dialogue in [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion]]}} [[Lore:Necromancy|Necromancy]] has always been abhorred in Redguard culture, due to their [[Lore:Redguard#Religion|reverence of the dead]]. Although being suspicious of magic is regarded as a hallmark of Redguard culture, it was not always so pronounced. In ancient times, Yokudan war-wizards were part of their armies, albeit rare.{{ref|name=CM20Y|{{Cite Book|Crafting Motifs 20: Yokudan}}}} Sword-singers were said to have forged swords woven with magic and indeed the [[Lore:Shehai|Shehai]] itself is believed to be a form of magic.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}

They have a great affinity for horses, and brought many with them to Hammerfell, notably the breed called the {{Future Link|Yokudan Charger}}.{{ref|name=THFOS}} The constellation of the [[Lore:The Warrior|Warrior]] and its charges seem to be of great importance in their ancient literature.{{ref|name=TWC|{{Cite Book|The Warrior's Charge}}}}{{ref|name=HTYCTS|{{Cite Book|How the Yokudans Chased the Stars}}}}

Redguards have a great diversity in styles for their clothing,{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} though it always tends to be light, long, and flowing to best tolerate the heat and hazards of the desert. They first developed this style of dress in Yokuda, which was known to have arid deserts similar to the [[Lore:Alik'r|Alik'r desert]] of their adopted homeland.{{ref|name=RM6TR|{{Cite Book|Racial Motifs 6: The Redguards}}}} The flowing curves of Redguard dress is mimicked in the designs of their armor and weaponry.{{ref|name=RM6TR}} Imperial propaganda from the late Second Era speaks of some Redguards opting to go nude in public, particularly in [[Lore:Rihad|Rihad]].{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} Denizens of the Alik'r tend to favor lightweight leather armors to better cope with heat, and often wear face coverings to keep sand from their mouths.{{ref|name=ASFO|{{Cite Book|Alik'r Survival for Outsiders}}}} In their constant quest for water, they often employ johads, simple but effective water collectors made of sticks and fabric which gather the morning dew of the desert.{{ref|name=NOABS|{{Cite Book|Notes of Anaelle Bertault, scholar}}}}

They are a highly disciplined and enterprising people, having centuries of experience with warfare in their homeland before arriving on Tamriel's shores. Their warriors are acknowledged to be among the best in the world. The Redguards are also known for their naval prowess, and their fleets have proved a match for the Empire's best armadas, as seen during the [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] revolt.{{ref|name=Redguard|Events of [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]]}} Stros M'Kai and some parts of mainland Hammerfell hold many Dwemer ruins, and some young Redguards seeking to enter military service must brave the dangers of these ruins.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} Most of their holidays and traditions seem to revolve around either the celebration of natural phenomena or the commemoration of great battles and warriors.{{ref|name=HOTIB}}{{ref|name=RTHATH}}{{ref|name=G|{{Cite Book|Ghraewaj}}}}

===Appearance===
Redguards are known for their tall, gaunt frames and finely toned physiques.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} They possess above average human strength and agility, and show a remarkable capacity for surviving in hot, dry climates. They generally possess dark skin, ranging from light brown in hue, to nearly black, and often with a significant red tint. They possess very curly, wiry hair, and their degree of body hair varies. Tattoos and body piercings are common.

Many Redguard men show an affinity for beards. "A man is only as great as the beard that wears him" is an old Redguard proverb.{{ref|name=ESOSai|[[Online:Sai Sahan|Sai Sahan]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}
[[File:ON-place-Sentinel.jpg|thumb|right|Redguard architecture circa {{Year|2E 583}}]]
===Architecture===
Redguard buildings vary from simple tents to the sturdy domed structures of the cities which incorporate many Yokudan advancements. The latter are renowned for their rigidity, flexibility, heat transference, and general ornate beauty. They are much easier to repair than most Imperial stonemasonry. While much Imperial construction requires demolition and rebuilding after conflict, many of the Yokudan accent pieces, such as the flying staircases or ornamental domes, are designed to crumble after an attack or an earthquake, which allows them to be easily replaced in sections afterward. However, these structures are still solidly built; they stand tall and firm against the harsh environment of Hammerfell.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}} They are characterized by thickly-built walls to help insulate against the heat of the desert, as well as a carefully-planned system of ventilation ducts. These ducts are built alongside windows high on the walls, and are covered by horizontal slats which keep out the sun while permitting the wind to enter. Each building is designed to channel even the slightest breeze from these ducts down to the floor.{{ref|name=RM6TR}}

Redguard stables have been recognized for their lavishness and the ingenious design which makes them perfect for the environmental hazards the Redguards face. Their enormous mausoleums are thought to be the purest, undiluted representations of Yokudan architecture in their society. The most famous example, {{Future Link|Tu'whacca's Throne}} in the Alik'r, is also a monument to the many Yokudans who died when the continent was destroyed, and it receives many pilgrims seeking to pay their respects.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}

===Forebears and Crowns===
The social strata of the Redguard has long been fractured.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}} When Hammerfell became a province of the Second Empire and demarcated in the Imperial custom, Redguard society was formally divided into two main socio-political groups: the [[Lore:Crowns|Crowns]] and the [[Lore:Forebears|Forebears]].{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} The Crowns are descended from the High King and the Na-Totambu who ruled in Yokuda; they hold Yokudan tradition in high reverence and greatly dislike foreigners. Their influence has been waning since the last High King perished in {{Year|2E 862}} and his son, the Crown Prince [[Lore:A'tor|A'tor]], reacted by viciously butchering the Forebear citizenry. When Tiber Septim's forces conquered the land two years later, it was perceived as a humanitarian gesture to stop the senseless bloodshed.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}} While the intervention did cease open war, the hostility between the various regions of the province remains so great that some have been known to ignore their brethren when they're trying to repulse a foreign invasion.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}}

The Forebears are descended from the Ra Gada warrior class which conquered the province, and in so doing were exposed to many Nedic (and later Breton and Imperial) traditions and ideas, while the ancestors of the Crowns were not. The Forebears seek modernity; they are more cosmopolitan than their Crown counterparts and more welcoming of foreigners and different ways of life. They have adopted modified Imperial and Breton styles for their dress, architecture, and [[Lore:Redguard Names|names]], and many have even reorganized their traditional gods and spirits to fit into the Imperial pantheon of the [[Lore:Eight Divines|Divines]]. Forebears are generally predominant in coastal cities and other major trade centers in the north, while most Crowns live in more secluded regions in the south, notably the deserts and other inhospitable areas.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}

In the late [[LO:Third Era|Third Era]], a third faction emerged. Named the [[Lore:Lhotunics|Lhotunics]] after their founder King Lhotun, they espouse the progressive and cosmopolitan values of the Forebears while maintaining a strong respect for their past, though the specific compromises are not known.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}} The movement is largely political: the Forebear kingdom of Sentinel is uniquely well-suited to forge a compromise between the two Redguard factions because it has been a seat of both Forebear and Crown power, and its economic and military strength has made it one of the most powerful and respected kingdoms in all of Tamriel.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}} Since the Miracle of Peace and beyond, the Lhotunic movement has served as a unifying force for Sentinel as it gains dominion over more territory, and since much of that territory is dominated by disgruntled Crowns, the necessity of the Lhotunic movement is apparent. Due to their moderate platform and these expansionist policies, the Lhotunics are generally disliked by the remaining Forebears and Crowns.{{ref|name=PGE3Ham}} However, the events of the Great War reportedly led to a reconciliation between the two factions.{{ref|name=TGW}}

===Religion===
[[File:ON-interior-Tu'whacca's Pillars 02.jpg|right|thumb|A bas-relief depicting Yokudan gods in al-Danobia Tomb]]
When a Redguard dies, priests typically perform a consecration ritual in the name of Tu'whacca at their funeral.{{ref|name=ONTKF|[[Online:Throne Keeper Farvad|Throne Keeper Farvad]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Some also practice mummification of the dead. The body is laid on a table and washed in oils and leaves. Before the head and torso are carefully cut open, the body is drained of blood, and the brain, heart, and other organs are placed into ceremonial jars, followed by a week of chanting prayers, mourning, and swathing the corpse with long ceremonial bandages. The body is then interred in a painted sarcophagus within a subterranean tomb, along with the deceased's favorite weapons, servants, and pets. It's not unusual to find that their crypts and tombs can be even larger and more elaborate than their homes for the living.{{ref|name=ONloadSC|[[Online:Suturah's Crypt|Suturah's Crypt]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]]}} This is all symptomatic of a Redguard respect for departed relatives, a respect so fervent it is similar to the ancestral worship of some other cultures.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}

Though the Redguards abhor necromancy, their religion has also led them to abhor any sort of interaction with the undead.{{ref|name=EOTAW|{{Cite Book|Epode of the Ansei Wards}}}} Tradition bound them not to fight the honored dead, making them particularly vulnerable to necromancers and undead creatures.{{ref|name=TIOF|{{Cite Book|The Interment of Feremuzh}}}}{{ref|name=MNR|{{Cite Book|Motalion Necropolis Report}}}} Such was the importance of this ideal, that the culture of the Alik'r evolved around it. However in later years many realized that exceptions must be made.{{ref|name=ONKF|[[Online:King Fahara'jad|King Fahara'jad]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} One example is the [[Lore:Ash'abah|Ash'abah]], a tribe of Redguards who have made it their duty to purify mausoleums and destroy the undead wherever they may be found. As a result, they have been shunned from Redguard society, and are exiled to live as nomads in the wastes. Their existence is nevertheless tolerated due to the necessity of their role. Among their other traditions, Ash'abah tribesmen travel to Tu'whacca's Throne annually to perform the 36-hour-long Rite of Royal Rest, which is said to seal departed monarchs in their tombs and keep their spirits happy.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}} Another form of protection against necromancy was the creation of the [[Lore:Ansei Wards|Ansei Wards]]. These ancient relics were forged as part of a covenant with Tu'whacca to ensure that the consecrated dead could not be raised by even the most powerful necromancy.{{ref|name=ONTKF}}

Redguards have come to venerate different gods, with the Crowns sticking to the most ancient Yokudan pantheon, while Forebear beliefs have evolved to include many Imperial influences. Many of the Crowns are nomadic tribesman who mainly travel around the Alik'r, and though they adhere to traditional Yokudan beliefs, they have also developed a deep, spiritual attachment to their adopted land. They venerate deities and spirits of all kinds, from Pixies (or faeries) to [[Lore:Satakal|Satakal the Worldskin]], the god of everything (a sort of fusion of [[Lore:Anu|Anu]] and [[Lore:Padomay|Padomay]] that bears similarities to the malevolent Nordic god [[Lore:Alduin|Alduin]]).{{ref|name=PGE1Ham}}{{ref|name=TA|{{Cite Book|The Alik'r}}}}{{ref|name=TF|{{Cite Book|The Faerie}}}}{{ref|name=VOF|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith...}}}} Occasionally, Satakal will destroy everything to begin anew, and the spirits who manage to find a way to survive are those who can move at "strange angles" to stride between one world and the next, and thus enter the Redguard pantheon of gods.{{ref|name=TM|{{Cite Book|The Monomyth}}}}

The Crown pantheon includes Satakal and the chieftain [[Lore:Ruptga|Ruptga]], or Tall Papa, the first to survive Satakal's destruction. They also venerate [[Lore:Zeht|Zeht]] (Yokudan God of Farms), Tall Papa's favorite wife [[Lore:Morwha|Morwha]], [[Lore:Tava|Tava]] (considered equivalent to [[Lore:Kynareth|Kynareth]]), [[Lore:Onsi|Onsi]] (a god of war), and [[Lore:Diagna|Diagna]]. [[Lore:Tu'whacca|Tu'whacca]] was thought to be the god of "Nobody Really Cares" before the creation of the world, when he became a caretaker and protector of souls (similar to [[Lore:Arkay|Arkay]]).{{ref|name=VOFIT|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith in Tamriel}}}}

The Forebear belief system includes several of the [[Lore:Nine Divines|Nine Divines]] recognized by other cultures: [[Lore:Akatosh|Akatosh]], [[Lore:Julianos|Julianos]], [[Lore:Dibella|Dibella]], and [[Lore:Stendarr|Stendarr]]. However, it is often unclear if they have the same understanding of these deities that others possess, as they often use a name of one of the Divines when referring to a Yokudan deity. For instance, they continue to venerate the Bird God Tava, a favorite among many Redguard sailors, but they have been known to call her Kynareth. Similarly, they may refer to Tu'whacca as Arkay, Zeht as [[Lore:Zenithar|Zenithar]], and the four-armed fertility goddess Morwha as [[Lore:Mara|Mara]].{{ref|name=VOFIT}}{{ref|name=FLPOZ|{{Cite Book|Florian Lanctot, priest of Zenithar}}}}

There are several other deities with significant Redguard cults among both Crowns and Forebears. [[Lore:Leki|Leki]], the Saint of the Spirit Sword and divine daughter of Tall Papa, is credited with helping the Yokudans before their war against the [[Lore:Lefthanded Elves|Lefthanded Elves]] in the [[Lore:Mythic Era|Mythic Era]]. The [[Lore:HoonDing|HoonDing]], the Make Way God, is the Yokudan spirit of perseverance over infidels, and is said to materialize when the Redguard need to "make way" for their people. They believe this spirit appeared twice during the Ra Gada invasion.{{ref|name=VOFIT}}

There is also the "Horde King" [[Lore:Malooc|Malooc]], an enemy of the Ra Gada who led goblins against them in the First Era.{{ref|name=VOFIT}} And finally, [[Lore:Sep|Sep]], believed to be the Yokudan variant of [[Lore:Lorkhan|Lorkhan]]. Sep was a "crazy" merchant god who convinced the others to create the mortal world to make it easier for more spirits to survive Satakal's inevitable onslaught. Except it didn't make it easier; rather, the mortal plane acted as a trap which made apotheosis even harder.{{ref|name=VOF}} In this way, the Redguard view of creation has more in common with the Elven tradition than that of other humans, who view the mortal plane as a blessing.{{ref|name=TM}}

The Horsemen tribe of High Rock have substantially different religious beliefs than their brethren. They venerate a divine animist spirit they call the {{Future Link|Herd Mother}}. Their tradition holds that they left Yokuda in order to freely worship this equine deity.{{ref|name=THFOS}}

===The Far Shores===
{{Lore:Far Shores}}
[[File:LO-people-Frandar Hunding.jpg|right|thumb|Frandar Hunding, a Sword-Singer, Warrior-Prince, and pioneer of Hammerfell]]
===The Book of Circles===
:''Train your opponent to make the wrong response.'' — [[Lore:The Book of Circles, Loredas Maxims|The Book of Circles]]

The Book of Circles was written by Frandar Hunding, a spiritual leader of the Redguards, in order to pass on his insights. When he was thirty years old (around {{Year|1E 750}}), he retired to a cave and began writing what would become the Book of Circles.{{ref|name=DTS}} For Redguards, it is an enormous part of their culture and everyday life.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}{{ref|name=FTMSOML|{{Cite Book|From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki}}}}{{ref|name=DTROHSAI|{{Cite Book|Daily training regimen of Harayya, sword-adept instructor}}}} Reading from it was abandoned sometime later in the First Era until Hallin, the only Ansei at the time, brought back the "old ways" and told each warrior to read the book.{{ref|name=NFRH}} The people of the [[Lore:Alik'r|Alik'r]] celebrate "Dirij Tereur" every year on the 5th of Frost Fall, a holiday honoring Frandar Hunding, and festivities typically include readings from the book.{{ref|name=Daggerfall|Events of [[Daggerfall:Daggerfall|Daggerfall]]}}

Each household in Hammerfell has an alcove by its hearth just big enough to hold a copy of the Book of Circles in honor of Hunding.{{ref|name=RTHATH}}{{ref|name=FTMSOML}} The book is still highly regarded as a treatise on blade mastery and even other experts at the skill refer to it. It is said to include "thirty-eight grips, seven hundred and fifty offensive and eighteen hundred defensive positions, and nearly nine thousand moves essential to sword mastery".{{ref|name=WAP|{{Cite Book|Words and Philosophy}}}} Though they utilize many other types of arms, a Redguard's sword is considered an extension of his soul and a symbol of honor, and their mastery of blade crafting is unparalleled.{{ref|name=EGTHammerfell}}
{{NewLeft}}

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:SR-npc-Alik'r Warrior 05.jpg|Alik'r warriors (Skyrim)
File:ON-concept-Desert water catcher.png|Concept art of a johad, or desert water catcher (ESO)
</gallery>

===Appearances===
<gallery>
File:AR-race-Redguard Males.gif|Male (Arena)
File:AR-race-Redguard Females.gif|Female (Arena)
File:DF-pc-Redguard (male).jpg|Male (Daggerfall)
File:DF-npc-Aubk-i.png|Female (Daggerfall)
File:BS-race-Redguard.jpg|Battlespire
File:RG-npc-Cyrus 03.jpg|Male (Redguard)
File:MW-npc-Elone.jpg|Female (Morrowind)
File:SK-icon-race-RedguardM.png|Male (Shadowkey)
File:SK-icon-race-RedguardF.png|Female (Shadowkey)
File:OB-npc-Boldon.jpg|Male (Oblivion)
File:SR-npc-Redguard Woman.jpg|Female (Skyrim)
File:ON-npc-Blademaster Qariar.jpg|Male (ESO)
File:LG-avatar-Redguard Male 1.png|Male (Legends)
File:LG-avatar-Redguard Female 1.png|Female (Legends)
</gallery>

==See Also==
* For Redguard names, see [[Lore:Redguard Names|here]].
* For game-specific information, see the [[Arena:Redguard|Arena]], [[Daggerfall:Redguard|Daggerfall]], [[Battlespire:Redguard|Battlespire]], [[Morrowind:Redguard|Morrowind]], [[Shadowkey:Redguard|Shadowkey]], [[Oblivion:Redguard|Oblivion]], [[Skyrim:Redguard|Skyrim]], [[Online:Redguard|ESO]], and [[Legends:Redguard|Legends]] articles.
* The spin-off game ''[[Redguard:Redguard|The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard]]'' was set in Stros M'Kai and featured the Redguard mercenary [[Lore:Cyrus|Cyrus]] as its main character.

===Books===
* {{Book Link|Alik'r Survival for Outsiders}}
* {{Book Link|The Ballad of Navid the Singer}}
* {{Book Link|Blasius' Unfinished Manuscript}}
* {{Book Link|Blessed, Blessed Satakalaam}}
* {{Book Link|The Book of Circles}}
* {{Book Link|Crafting Motifs 6: The Redguards}}
* {{Book Link|Daily training regimen of Harayya, sword-adept instructor}}
* {{Book Link|Discussion with Abal at-Inzil, priest of Tava}}
* {{Book Link|Divad the Singer}}
* {{Book Link|Epode of the Ansei Wards}}
* {{Book Link|A Forebear Warrior's Song}}
* {{Book Link|From the journal of Guradai, apprentice smith}}
* {{Book Link|From The Memory Stone of Makela Leki}}
* {{Book Link|From the notes of Verbaud Derre, architect}}
* {{Book Link|Hags, Harpies, and Hagravens}}
* {{Book Link|Holidays of the Iliac Bay}}
* {{Book Link|The Horse-Folk of Silverhoof}}
* {{Book Link|How the Yokudans Chased the Stars}}
* {{Book Link|The Hunger of Sep}}
* {{Book Link|Knowing Satakal}}
* {{Book Link|Letter from Alumezi, Dominion spy}}
* {{Book Link|The Lost Islands of Old Yokuda}}
* {{Book Link|The Manifesto of Make Way}}
* {{Book Link|The Na-Totambu of Yokuda}}
* {{Book Link|Notes of Adalabar, hunter}}
* {{Book Link|Notes For Redguard History}}
* {{Book Link|On the Immortality of Dust}}
* '''{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}'''
* '''{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Hammerfell}}'''
* {{Book Link|Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes}}
* {{Book Link|Reverence for the Dead}}
* {{Book Link|Sacrilege and Mayhem in the Alik'r}}
* {{Book Link|Sentinel, the Jewel of Alik'r}}
* {{Book Link|Sword-Wisdom of Saikhalar}}
* {{Book Link|Threat of the Baandari Pedlars}}
* {{Book Link|Tombs and Coffers Volume III: Hel Ra Citadel}}
* {{Book Link|The True-Told Tale of Hallin}}
* {{Book Link|Tu'whacca's Prayer}}
* {{Book Link|Varieties of Faith, Crown Redguards}}
* {{Book Link|Varieties of Faith, The Forebears}}
* {{Book Link|The Warrior's Charge}}
* {{Book Link|When We Pass}}
* {{Book Link|Wind and Sand}}
* {{Book Link|The Worthy Ar-Azal, His Deeds}}

==References==
<references/>
{{Races}}</noinclude>

User:Minor Edits

2019-11-04T01:07:36Z

The Silencer: courtesy link fix

__NOTOC__

{{Userlinks|Minor Edits}}

I tweak stuff. I take the edit disclaimer to heart: '''If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then don't submit it here.'''

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Lore:Imperial Legion

2019-11-04T01:06:29Z

The Silencer: moved

<noinclude>{{Lore Factions Trail}}{{Featured article}}{{TOCright}}[[File:SR-icon-Imperial Legion.png|thumb|left|The symbol of the Imperial Legion]]</noinclude>
The [[Lore:Imperial Legion|Imperial Legion]], also known as the '''Imperial Army''' and the '''Ruby Ranks''',{{ref|name=TWQ|{{Cite Book|The Wolf Queen}}}}{{ref|name=PGE1C|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Cyrodiil}}}} is the main fighting force of the [[Lore:Empire|Empire of Tamriel]]. It is often pluralized as the Imperial Legions. It operates under the auspices and authority of the Emperor himself. With its vast numbers, quality training, and rigid discipline, the Legion is considered one of the best armies ever assembled in history. The primary mission of the Imperial Legion is to preserve the peace and rule of law in the Empire.{{ref|name=OL|{{Cite Book|Ordo Legionis}}}} Those who protect the Emperor and the Imperial Province are sometimes called the '''Imperial Guard''' and the '''Imperial Watch'''.{{ref|name=ASS!|{{Cite Book|Assassination!|ns_base=Oblivion}}}}{{ref|name=GFMOM|{{Cite Book|Gray Fox, Man or Myth?|ns_base=Oblivion}}}} A Legion Centurion is typically in command of the Palace Guard of the [[Lore:White Gold Tower|White Gold Tower]].{{ref|name=PBI|{{Cite Book|Palace Break-In?|ns_base=Oblivion}}}}

In peacetime the Legion serves primarily as a garrison force — manning forts, patrolling roads, and providing guardsmen for towns, cities, counties, and nobles.{{ref|name=Oblivion|Events of [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion]]}}{{ref|name=Morrowind|Events of [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]]}} They are empowered to arrest criminals and seize their property, among other things.{{ref|name=PN|{{Cite Book|Public Notice|ns_base=Oblivion}}}} In wartime, the Legion's responsibilities and powers are greatly increased. During conflicts, the Legion serves as an invading and occupying force, overwhelming opposition with numerical superiority and strict economy of force. <includeonly>For more information, see the [[Lore:Imperial Legion|lore article]].</includeonly><noinclude>
{{NewLeft}}

==Overview==
[[File:SR-banner-Imperial Legion.png|thumb|right|Imperial Legion banner seen in [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]]]
The Legion is divided into structured and disciplined military units; the primary, and largest, of which is the Legion, which is further divided into Cohorts.{{ref|name=AALL|{{Cite Book|An Ancient Love Letter|ns_base=Online}}}} Legions are numbered for identification, and each possesses a proud history and sub-culture. Of note, for example, is the 10th Legion, which was destroyed in the Imperial invasion of [[Lore:Akavir|Akavir]].{{ref|name=RDAI|{{Cite Book|Report: Disaster at Ionith}}}} The [[Lore:Shadow Legion|Shadow Legion]] consists of battlemages and focuses on the schools of [[Lore:Magic|Magic]]. All facets of warfare are accounted for in Legionary operations, and the Legion employs large numbers of highly-specialized troops in conjunction with one another to achieve victory, among them archers, light and heavy cavalry, battlemages, and healers.{{ref|name=RDAI}}{{ref|name=RQOR|{{Cite Book|Report: Quality of Recruits|ns_base=Online}}}} Officers include sergeants, commanders, captains, centurions, legates, generals, and a grand marshall.{{ref|name=RQOR}}{{ref|name=BPG|{{Cite Book|Basic Provisioning Guide}}}}{{ref|name=LTTGMOTIL|{{Cite Book|Letter to the Grand Marshall of the Imperial Legion|ns_base=Battlespire}}}} Imperial organizations, such as the Imperial Society, requisition legionnaire support as needed for their endeavors.{{ref|name=TROK|{{Cite Book|Ruins of Kemel-Ze}}}}

Tying into the Legion's versatility is its non-discriminatory policy of recruitment. The Legion recruits individuals of all races and creeds into its ranks and benefits from the diversity of skills they all bring (although men form the vast majority). The Legion's strict standards of recruitment choose candidates for service on the bases of endurance, soldierly virtue, and trustworthiness, among others. Service in the Legion is considered a model of Imperial citizenship, and as such requires a high standard of excellence. Influential Imperial military families would often send their children to be trained in legionary academies, such as the {{Lore Link|Topal Legionary Academy}}, where they would be trained to be elite soldiers.{{ref|{{Cite Book|Topal Legionary Academy: A Khajiit's Summary}}}} Legionnaires are typically expected to be at the peak of physical fitness in order to weather the rigors of melee combat and long marches in heavy equipment, demonstrate mastery of blades, polearms, and blunt weaponry, and have great skill in utilizing heavy armor as well as hand-shields.{{ref|name=OL}} The Legion has had multiple [[Lore:Dragon|Dragons]] serve underneath it, such as; [[Lore:Nahfahlaar|Nahfahlaar]] who served under [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]], [[Lore:Dragonne Papré|Dragonne Papré]], and [[Lore:Skakmat|Skakmat]].

Legionnaires are specially outfitted depending on a large number of factors, including climate, location, task, and expectations. They employed armors of chain, scale, plate mail, and gender-neutral skirts in the province of [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]] in {{Year|3E 427}}, heavy steel plate overlying chain mail in the capitol province of Cyrodiil during the [[Lore:Oblivion Crisis|Oblivion Crisis]], and lighter leather, chainmail, and steel plate armors in Skyrim during the [[Lore:Stormcloak Rebellion|Stormcloak Rebellion]]. Battlemages tend to wear hoods, healers wear light padded armor, guardsmen on loan to nobles wear the vestments of their town, city, county, or hold, and rangers and foresters tend to wear fur or leather apparel in addition to their Legionary armor. In addition, uniform may vary depending on the culture of the local area or province.

==Known Legions==
*Legion Zero — A traitorous Imperial Legion that had sworn fealty to [[Lore:Molag Bal|Molag Bal]] during his invasion of the Imperial City, becoming [[Lore:Mind-Shriven|Mind-Shriven]].

*Second Legion — Accompanied Varen Aquilarios during the Colovian Revolt, and were headquartered in the vicinity of Bruma during peacetime. The Imperial War Mastiff is their mascot and symbol.{{ref|{{Cite Book|The Wolf and the Dragon}}}}

*Third Legion — Helped to put down the Moth Rebellion in the Imperial City in {{Year|2E 857}} alongside [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim's]] honor guard. In {{Year|2E 863}} the forces of the [[Lore:Aldmeri Dominion|Aldmeri Dominion]] caught the Third Legion by surprise and almost completely destroyed it. The remnants of it made the core of the newly created Ruby Legion stationed in the [[Lore:Nibenay Valley|Nibenay Valley]]. The [[Lore:Tiber_Wars#Sack_of_Senchal|Sack of Senchal]] was carried out by the Third Legion. [[Lore:Attrebus (soldier)|Attrebus]] was a known member.{{ref|name=RGAttrebus|[[Redguard:Attrebus|Attrebus]]' [http://web.archive.org/web/20040705033821/http://redguard.bethsoft.com/characters/attrebus.html biography] on Redguard's old site}}

*Fourth Legion — Led by General Augurius Bucco in {{Year|1E 2811}}, participated in the [[Lore:The Blackwater War|Blackwater War]], the Fourth Legion was completely decimated on the Last Seed 14 {{Year|1E 2820}}. Reformed under General Regulus Sardecus circa {{Year|1E 2823}}, the Fourth Legion had regained all territory that had been lost in [[Lore:Black Marsh|Black Marsh]].{{ref|{{Cite Book|The Blackwater War}}}} A deserter from this legion worked against the forces of Molag Bal during his invasion of the Imperial City, actively destroying the enemy's siege weapons.{{ref|name=QR|[[Online:Quintia Rullus|Quintia Rullus]]' appearance in [[Online:Dousing the Fires of Industry|ESO]]}}

*Fifth Legion — Led by Captain Lampronius in {{Year|2E 582}}, who trained new recruits. The Fifth Legion was recreated in {{Year|3E 288}} and participated in the Invasion of Akavir as one of the initial landing legions. Fifth Legion Porter, an alcoholic beverage, is named after them.{{ref|name=RDAI}}

*Sixth Legion — Little is known of the Sixth Legion, with only one known member, Antonia Gratas, who was stranded in [[Lore:Craglorn|Craglorn]] and so followed Legion protocol by selling any surplus equipment to secure passage back to her Legion.

*Seventh Legion — One of the Imperial Legions, they had taken control of Southern Bangkorai in {{Year|2E 583}}. They later participated in the Invasion of Akavir in {{Year|3E 288}} as one of the initial landing legions.{{ref|name=RDAI}}

*Ninth Legion — Part of the first group of Imperial troops sent to Black Marsh, the legion was lost in Tsofeer Cavern in Murkmire.{{ref|name=LON|{{Cite Book|Legion Officer's Notebook}}}} The Ninth Legion was recreated sometime before {{Year|3E 288}} and participated in the Invasion of Akavir as reinforcements.{{ref|name=RDAI}}

*Tenth Legion – Participated in the Invasion of Akavir in {{Year|3E 288}} as one of the initial landing legions. Only two members survived and told of how the Tenth Legion's final stand allowed remnants of the Fourteenth Legion to reach [[Lore:Septimia|Septimia]] and reported on the death of Uriel V.{{ref|name=RDAI}} The Tenth Legion was recreated sometime before the [[Lore:Great War|Great War]] with Legate Justianus Quintius as their commanding officer, they participated in both [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]] and [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]].

*Twelfth Legion

*Thirteenth Legion – Led by General Renmus, [[Lore:Varen Aquilarios|Emperor Aquilarios]] sent the Thirteenth Legion to [[Lore:Senchal|Senchal]] in {{Year|2E 578}} to help restore order after the [[Lore:Knahaten Flu|Knahaten Flu]] had ravaged the area. The legion defended the [[Lore:Khajiit|Khajiit]] as they rebuilt and formed a city council alongside the Khajiit. The legion came to be known as the 'Shields of Senchal'.

*Fourteenth Legion – Participated in the Invasion of Akavir in {{Year|3E 288}} as one of the initial landing legions.{{ref|name=RDAI}}

*Fifteenth Legion – A Legion involved with defending [[Lore:Orsinium|Orsinium]] during the [[Lore:Fourth Era|Fourth Era]].

*Seventeenth legion – Participated in the Invasion of Akavir in {{Year|3E 288}} as a reinforcement legion.{{ref|name=RDAI}}

*Eighteenth Legion

*[[Lore:Shadow Legion|Shadow Legion]] – A division that consists of the Imperial Battlemages.

*[[Lore:Cygnus Irregulars|Cygnus Irregulars]] – A division that consists of the Cygnus Irregulars under Prefect Calo.

*Legion of Chorrol – The Legion based in Chorrol during {{Year|2E 576}}, participated in [[Lore:Varen's Rebellion|Varen's Rebellion]] and helped to overthrow [[Lore:Leovic|Emperor Leovic]].{{ref|{{Cite Book|Eulogy for Emperor Varen}}}}

*Legion of the West Weald – An Imperial Legion from [[Lore:Colovia|Colovia]] led by General Lavinia during {{Year|2E 582}}. The Legion had annexed [[Lore:Arenthia|Arenthia]] and had planned to take over the [[Lore:Northern Woods|Northern Woods]].

*Deathshead Legion – An Imperial Legion based in [[Lore:Gnisis|Gnisis]] in {{Year|3E 427}} led by General Darius. It consisted primarily of [[Lore:Orc|Orcs]].

*Hawkmoth Legion – An Imperial Legion based in [[Lore:Ebonheart|Ebonheart]] in {{Year|3E 427}} led by Knight Protector Frald the White.

*Diamond Marines – A division that participated in the [[Lore:The Blackwater War|Blackwater War]].{{ref|name=TBW|[[Lore:The Blackwater War, Volume 7|The Blackwater War, Volume 7]]}}

==History==
===The Alessian Legions===
The first incarnation of the Imperial Legion arose under the [[Lore:Alessian Empire|Alessian Empire]] in the [[Lore:First Era|First Era]], when it was known as the Alessian Legion.{{ref|name=PAPAHS|{{Cite Book|Picnic at Pelin (A Horror Story)}}}}{{ref|name=TRHOKE|{{Cite Book|The Royal House of King Eamond}}}} Legends speak of the legions led by [[Lore:Morihaus|Morihaus]] when the man-bull took the White Gold Tower.{{ref|name=CHOA|{{Cite Book|Cherim's Heart of Anequina}}}} The Legion sprang from the hardy rugged stock of [[Lore:Colovia|Colovia]] and the sophisticated battlemages of [[Lore:Nibenay Basin|Nibenay]]. United, the warriors of Cyrodiil were a force to be reckoned with.

The Alessian army spent most of the third century of the First Era securing Alessian control over [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]], slowly overcoming Ayleid holdouts despite their magical prowess and often ingenious tactics.{{ref|name=DOTN|{{Cite Book|Daughter of the Niben}}}} The Alessians fought many [[Lore:Wars|Wars]] over the course of the First Era; many cultures have legends speaking of the seemingly unstoppable legions of Empress [[Lore:Hestra|Hestra]] circa {{Year|1E 1030}}.{{ref|name=TLORE|{{Cite Book|The Legend of Red Eagle}}}}{{ref|name=LL|{{Cite Book|Lost Legends}}}} Nevertheless, the Legion's fortunes have always waxed and waned along with the Empire. When the leadership of the [[Lore:Alessian Order|Alessian Order]] succumbed to internal squabbling, the [[Lore:War of Righteousness|War of Righteousness]] began,{{ref|name=PGE1C}} a decade-long civil war which no doubt pitted legionnaire against legionnaire.

===A New Legion===
Once the province was reunited again under the god-hero [[Lore:Reman|Reman I]] circa {{Year|1E 2703}}, his legions spent the last two centuries of the First Era reestablishing an Empire of Man in Tamriel.{{ref|name=PGE3Other|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Other Lands}}}}{{ref|name=2920L|{{Cite Book|2920, The Last Year of the First Era}}}} The Imperial Legion as it is known in modern times first appeared under the [[Lore:Second Empire|Second Empire]], thanks to the influence of the [[Lore:Akavir|Akavir]]i [[Lore:Dragonguard|Dragonguard]]. Their weaponry, methods, and rigid discipline turned the Imperial Legion into the unparalleled fighting force which was able to conquer every region of mainland Tamriel (save Morrowind). By the end of the era, the [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Summerset Isle]] was the only modern-day province which had no Legion presence.{{ref|name=PGE1C}}

Under the [[Lore:Akaviri Potentate|Akaviri Potentate]]s at the beginning of the [[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]], the Imperial Legion achieved something unthinkable: they became the only fighting force in the Empire. In {{Year|2E 283}}, when faced with widespread rebellion, Potentate [[Lore:Versidue-Shaie|Versidue-Shaie]] declared martial law, demanding that all of his vassals dissolve their armies. After thirty-seven years and enormous sacrifice, the Imperial Legion had quelled all who did not obey, wiping out any organized resistance to them within the Empire. They were the only army in the land.{{ref|name=HOTFG|{{Cite Book|History of the Fighters Guild}}}}

[[File:ON-npc-Captain Regilus.jpg|A member of {{Future Link|Legion Zero}} in the process of becoming [[Lore:Mind-Shriven|Mind-Shriven]]|thumb|right]]
===Puppets of Pretenders===
During the [[Lore:Interregnum|Interregnum]] of the Second Era, after the dissolution of the Second Empire, the Imperial Legion became the instrument of various warlords in Cyrodiil, notably the infamous [[Lore:Tharn|Tharn]] family. Many disparaged the Legion around Tamriel during this time, claiming that it no longer exemplified the superb qualities it had in the past.{{fact}} At the beginning of the [[Lore:Planemeld|Planemeld]], all Legions were recalled to the [[Lore:Imperial City|Imperial City]],{{ref|{{Cite Book|ns_base=ON|Imperial Recall Orders}}}}, but many couldn't make it to [[Lore:City Isle|City Isle]] and instead set up isolated camps throughout the [[Lore:Heartlands|Heartlands]] as the [[Lore:Alliance War|Alliance War]] raged around them.{{ref|name=ESO|Events of [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Legionnaires who were in the Imperial City when the Anchors began to drop were given the option to swear fealty to [[Lore:Molag Bal|Molag Bal]] by drinking the "{{Future Link|Blood of Coldharbour}}", a poison that would slowly turn the imbibers into [[Lore:Mind-Shriven|Mind-Shriven]].{{ref|[[ON:Captain Regilus|Captain Regilus]]' dialogue}} Many instead chose death, but those who turned traitor formed a new regiment called {{Future Link|Legion Zero}}.{{ref|{{Cite Book|The Drake of Blades Answers Your Questions}}}} Legion Zero cooperated with the [[Lore:Xivkyn|Xivkyn]] occupiers, and transformed the Elven Gardens District into a workshop for constructing siege equipment for the Daedric forces.{{ref|name=IC|Events of [[ON:Imperial City (DLC)|Imperial City]]}}

Elsewhere in Tamriel, Legion troops under the command of the Tharns became engaged in relatively minor campaigns to annex surrounding regions, with little long-term success. Circa {{Year|2E 582}}, [[Lore:Colovia|Colovia]]n troops under [[Lore:Javad Tharn|Javad Tharn]] entered [[Lore:Aldmeri Dominion|Aldmeri Dominion]] territory in a failed attempt to annex the [[Lore:Reaper's March|Reaper's March]] region south of Colovia.{{ref|name=ESO}} Under Magus-General [[Lore:Septima Tharn|Septima Tharn]], the [[Lore:Seventh Legion|Seventh Legion]] became engaged in operations across much of Tamriel, often with very little support.{{fact}} Circa 2E 582, the Seventh Legion entered [[Lore:Daggerfall Covenant|Daggerfall Covenant]] territory in a failed attempt to annex [[Lore:Bangkorai|Bangkorai]].{{ref|name=ESO}} The Legion's leadership was encouraged to act ruthlessly, and they often engaged in abductions, as well as summary executions of disloyal soldiers, disobedient prisoners, or recalcitrant conquered civilians.{{fact}}

[[File:LO-person-Tiber Septim.png|thumb|right|Engraving of Tiber Septim from a [[Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition|propaganda pamphlet]] during his conquests]]
===The Tiber Wars===
In {{Year|2E 852}}, the [[Lore:Tiber Wars|Tiber Wars]] began, and nothing would ever be the same. In the dead of winter, General [[Lore:Tiber Septim|Talos]] led a small army from Cyrodiil to take the mighty fortress of [[Lore:Sancre Tor|Sancre Tor]] from the allied [[Lore:Nord|Nord]]-[[Lore:Breton|Breton]] forces which had occupied it. The Cyrodilic army was small, poorly trained and outfitted, short on rations, and unprepared for winter campaigning. And yet, the man who would become known as Tiber Septim led them to victory.{{ref|name=BOST|{{Cite Book|Battle of Sancre Tor}}}}

The Battle of Sancre Tor was just the beginning in a renaissance for the Imperial Legion. Young men in [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]] began to flock to Septim's armies.{{ref|name=PGE1Sky|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Skyrim}}}} With his invincible General Talos, King [[Lore:Cuhlecain|Cuhlecain]] was able to unite the [[Lore:Colovian Estates|Colovian Estates]] in a year, and soon thereafter in {{Year|2E 854}} took the [[Lore:Imperial City|Imperial City]], taking the title of Emperor. He was soon killed, and Emperor Tiber Septim took his place. His ever-loyal soldiers solidified his hold on Cyrodiil and High Rock,{{ref|name=TAH|{{Cite Book|The Arcturian Heresy}}}} and then targeted [[Lore:Elsweyr|Elsweyr]].{{ref|name=RGAttrebus}}

The Legion suffered its share of tribulations while forging the Empire of Tamriel. In the {{Future Link|Battle of Black Rocks}} in {{Year|2E 863}}, the Aldmeri Dominion almost completely destroyed the Third Legion,{{ref|name=RGAttrebus}} and the initially smooth annexation of [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]] the following year was disrupted by the [[Lore:Stros M'Kai Uprising|Stros M'Kai Uprising]].{{ref|name=TAH}} For a brief time during the {{Future Link|Moth Rebellion}}, Tiber Septim was driven out of the Imperial City, and the Legion within the city was besieged.{{ref|name=RGAttrebus}} And Tiber's generals positively dreaded a campaign against the [[Lore:Dunmer|Dunmer]] of Morrowind (though they were spared from attempting to conquer the entire province thanks to the [[Lore:Armistice|Armistice]]).{{ref|name=OM|{{Cite Book|On Morrowind}}}}

One by one, the provinces were brought into the fold. The [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Summerset Isle]] has never been successfully invaded by the Legion, though they were reportedly more than capable of repulsing elven incursions.{{ref|name=PGE1Ald|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Aldmeri Dominion}}}} But finally, in {{Year|2E 896}}, Septim's use of the [[Lore:Numidium|Numidium]] brought the homeland of the [[Lore:Altmer|Altmer]] under his control, making him the first true Emperor of Tamriel.{{ref|name=TAH}}
[[File:MW-place-Moonmoth Legion Fort.jpg|thumb|right|A Legion fort in Morrowind]]

===The Third Empire===
Under the Septim Empire, the Imperial Legion regained its reputation as a model military force.{{ref|name=MUT|{{Cite Book|Mixed Unit Tactics}}}} From Morrowind to the Summerset Isles, the Legion helped keep the peace. It had to manage a great deal of insurrection, the many major wars of the [[Lore:Third Era|Third Era]],{{ref|name=BHOTE|{{Cite Book|Brief History of the Empire}}}} and piracy,{{ref|name=CDJ|{{Cite Book|Cap'n Dugal's Journal}}}} not to mention the disastrous invasion of Akavir circa {{Year|3E 288}}.{{ref|name=RDAI}} They developed and maintained a system of garrisons throughout Tamriel, manning and supplying each in accordance with the threats they faced (though some questioned the significance of these threats given the exorbitant cost of maintaining this system).{{ref|name=TEP|{{Cite Book|The Eastern Provinces}}}} During this time, they were known for their close association with the [[Lore:Imperial Cult|Imperial Cult]], which frequently provided services in their forts.{{ref|name=FMGAE|{{Cite Book|For My Gods and Emperor}}}} The Legion maintained a strong presence in Morrowind throughout the Third Era, and it is believed that [[Lore:Dagoth Ur|Dagoth Ur]], before his defeat at the hands of the [[Lore:Nerevarine|Nerevarine]], was preparing for an extended campaign against them utilizing assassination and terror.{{ref|name=Morrowind}}{{ref|name=DUP|{{Cite Book|Dagoth Ur's Plans}}}}

During the [[Lore:Oblivion Crisis|Oblivion Crisis]], the Legion mainly found itself engaged in a stalling action against the incredible onslaught of [[Lore:Mehrunes Dagon|Mehrunes Dagon]]. Counts in Cyrodiil complained that High Chancellor [[Lore:Ocato|Ocato]] was inordinately concerned with other provinces even as {{Future Link|Oblivion Gate}}s opened throughout the Imperial Province itself.{{ref|name=Oblivion}} The denizens of Morrowind, and possibly other provinces, were perhaps even more frustrated, as the Legion was apparently ordered to secure regions around the border with Cyrodiil, protecting the Imperial homeland at the expense of all others.{{ref|name=DBAdril|[[Dragonborn:Adril Arano|Adril Arano]]'s dialogue in [[Dragonborn:Dragonborn|Dragonborn]].}}
[[File:SR-npc-Legate Rikke.jpg|thumb|right|A Legate of the Imperial Legion (Skyrim)]]

===After the Septims===
Following the Oblivion Crisis, the Imperial Legion steadily grew weaker. The [[Lore:Thalmor|Thalmor]] rose to power again in the Summerset Isle, and the Legion could not stop them from reforming the Aldmeri Dominion. The Thalmor eventually delivered an ultimatum to [[Lore:Titus Mede II|Emperor Titus Mede II]] demanding a series of enormous concessions. When the Emperor refused, the [[Lore:Great War|Great War]] began.{{ref|name=TGW|{{Cite Book|The Great War (book)}}}}

During the Great War, the Aldmeri Dominion initially invaded deep into the heart of Cyrodiil, capturing [[Lore:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]] and [[Lore:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]] rapidly before the Legion could mobilize an effective defense. More Dominion armies invaded into Hammerfell, bypassing western Cyrodiil entirely. When they realized the weakness of the Legion, however, the Aldmeri Dominion grew bolder and mobilized an offensive against Cyrodiil as a whole, intending to bring the entire Empire under their control. Quickly, [[Lore:Bruma|Bruma]] and the Imperial City were the only cities which remained under Legion control in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile, the legions in Hammerfell were pressed hard and forced to retreat, leaving the entire southern half of Hammerfell to fall to the Dominion. The Imperial City itself came under siege. Though relieved by several legions of hardened Nord legionnaires, the Emperor ultimately gave the order to break the siege and abandon the city. An entire Legion sacrificed itself to defend the Emperor's rear.{{ref|name=TGW}}

At this time, the Imperial Palace was sacked, plundered, and burned. The Aldmeri Dominion began seeking an Imperial surrender. While the Emperor strung them along, he recalled all the legions defending Hammerfell and rearmed and refreshed the Skyrim and Cyrodilic legions. The legions from Hammerfell left a considerable number of veterans behind as they returned to Cyrodiil, successfully duping the Thalmor into believing the entire army was still fighting them there. The Emperor stormed south with his refreshed legions as the Hammerfell legions came in from the west. The Aldmeri Dominion, caught by surprise, was attacked by the Hammerfell legions from the west, while the Skyrim legions swept east and south and the Emperor, along with his personal Cyrodilic legions, assaulted the Imperial City, surrounding it on three sides and fending off Dominions piecemeal reinforcements and blocking their retreat from the Imperial City. They retook the Imperial City and all of Cyrodiil. In the End the Legion was victorious, though exhausted, no Legion had more than half its forces fit for duty, and Two Legions of soldiers had been effectively annihilated, not including the loss of the Eighth Legion in the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. But the Emperor believed that with this victory was the best time to negotiate peace with the Dominion and put an official end to the war, resulting in the [[Lore:White-Gold Concordat|White-Gold Concordat]] being signed, which essentially gave in to all the Thalmor's initial demands.{{ref|name=TGW}} Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory, and so, in order to preserve the Peace with the Dominion, the Emperor officially renounced Hammerfell as part of the Empire.{{ref|name=TGW}}{{ref|name=Dragonborn|Events of [[Dragonborn:Dragonborn|Dragonborn]]}}{{ref|name=TIC|{{Cite Book|The Infernal City}}}}

Unfortunately, the Legion's woes were not yet at an end. In Skyrim twenty-five years later, with the ascension of [[Lore:Ulfric Stormcloak|Ulfric Stormcloak]] to the Jarlship of [[Lore:Eastmarch|Eastmarch]] and the death of High King [[Lore:Torygg|Torygg]] at Ulfric's hands, [[Lore:Stormcloak Rebellion|civil war]] broke out. The Imperial Legion was forced to fight in Skyrim against many warriors who had previously been legionnaires themselves, weakening the Legion even further.{{ref|name=Skyrim|Events of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}
{{NewLine}}
==Artifacts==
There are a few artifacts that are commonly associated with the Legion such as the [[Lore:Lord's Mail|Lord's Mail]], the [[Lore:Ward of Akavir|Ward of Akavir]] and [[Lore:Chrysamere|Chrysamere]].
==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:RG-npc-Guard.jpg|Imperial Guard in Stros M'kai
File:MW-npc-Imperial Guard.jpg|Imperial Guard
File:OB-npc-Imperial Legion Forester.jpg|Imperial Legion Forester
File:OB-npc-Imperial Legion Guard.jpg|Imperial Legion Guard
File:OB-Legion Rider.jpg|Imperial Legion Rider
File:SR-quest-Joining the Legion 02.jpg|General Tullius
File:SR-npc-Fort Commander 02.jpg|Legion Fort Commander
File:ON-npc-Captain Gemelle.jpg|Legion Captain
File:ON-npc-Septima Tharn.jpg|Magus-General [[Lore:Septima Tharn|Septima Tharn]]
File:ON-npc-Prefect Calo2.jpg|Prefect Calo
File:MW-place-Gnisis Barracks.jpg|Deathshead Legion barracks, Gnisis
File:OB-place-Imperial Legion Offices.jpg|Imperial Legion Offices in the Imperial City
File:SR-place-Castle Dour.jpg|Castle Dour, headquarters of the Legion in Skyrim circa {{Year|4E 201}}
File:LG-cardart-Empire Recruiter.png|Imperial Recruiter
File:LG-cardart-Legion Zero Templar.png|Legion Zero Templar
File:ON-card-Imperial Guard Centurion Uniform.png|Imperial Guard Centurions
File:LG-cardart-Imperial Reinforcements.png|Imperial army marching from the Imperial City
File:SR-quest-Battle for Windhelm.jpg|Legionnaires preparing to capture Windhelm
File:ON-mount-Imperial War Horse 02.jpeg|Cyrodilic Empire Imperial War horse, used by the Imperial Legion Cavalry
File:ON-pet-Imperial War Mastiff 02.jpeg|An Imperial War Mastiff, used commonly by the Second Legion
</gallery>

==Notes==
* The Imperial Legion was inspired by the Roman Legions who were the supreme military power in Ancient Europe. See [[:File:MW-concept-14.jpg|here]] for early [[Morrowind:Concept Art|concept art]].

==See Also==
* For game-specific information, see the [[Morrowind:Imperial Legion|Morrowind]], [[Oblivion:Imperial Legion|Oblivion]], [[Skyrim:Imperial Legion|Skyrim]], and [[Online:Imperial Legion|ESO]] articles.

===Books===
* {{Book Link|The Eastern Provinces}}
* {{Book Link|The Great War (book)}}
* {{Book Link|The Holds of Skyrim}}
* {{Book Link|Ice and Chitin}}
* {{Book Link|Ordo Legionis}}
* {{Book Link|Report: Disaster at Ionith}}
* {{Book Link|Centurion's Signet}}
* {{Book Link|The Blackwater War}}
* {{Book Link|Manual of Arms}}
* {{Book Link|Manual of Armor}}
* {{Book Link|Topal Legionary Academy: A Khajiit's Summary}}

==References==
<references/></noinclude>

Lore:People A

2019-11-04T01:03:33Z

The Silencer: fix

{{Lore People Trail}}

===={{Anchor|Abnur Tharn}} ({{Year|2E 418}} - ?d)====
{{Lore:Abnur Tharn}}

===={{Anchor|Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Ada'Soom Dir-Kamal}}

====King {{Anchor|Aeradan Camoran}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Aeradan Camoran}}

====Aetherion====
{{Lore:Aetherion}}

===={{Anchor|Agnorith}} (?b - ?d)====
Brother of the First Emperor of Tamriel, {{Lore Link|Tiber Septim}}, and the father of {{Lore Link|Kintyra|Empress Kintyra}}.{{ref|name=BHOTE1|{{Cite Book|Brief History of the Empire v 1}}}}

===={{Anchor|Ahzidal}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Ahzidal}}

====Prince {{Anchor|Aiden Direnni}} (?b - ?d)====
A prince{{ref|name=PAR|{{Cite Book|Prince Aiden's Report}}}} of the {{Lore Link|Altmer}} {{Lore Link|Direnni}} Clan. Often spoken of alongside his cousins Ryain Direnni and {{Lore Link|Raven Direnni}}, Aiden won many battles against the {{Lore Link|Alessian Empire}} in {{Year|1E 480}}.{{ref|name=DRD|{{Cite Book|De Rerum Dirennis}}}}{{ref|name=TFL|{{Cite Book|The Final Lesson}}}} His crowning achievement was leading Direnni forces to victory against the Alessians in the {{Lore Link|Battle of Glenumbra Moors}} in {{Year|1E 482}}, ending their ambitions of conquering {{Lore Link|High Rock}}.{{ref|name=Once|{{Cite Book|Once}}}} Over three thousand years later, around {{Year|2E 582}}, a prince Aiden Direnni contacted the {{Lore Link|Aldmeri Dominion}} and asked them to take action against the {{Lore Link|Bloodthorn Cult}} in {{Lore Link|Glenumbra}}—however its unknown this was indeed the same Aiden Direnni of legend, given the vast difference in time.{{ref|name=PAR}} Around this time his broken sword was also recovered by the {{Lore Link|Merethic Society}} to be displayed in their museum in Greenshade.{{ref|name=ONMC|[[Online:The Merethic Collection|The Merethic Collection]] quest in [[Online:Online|ESO]].}}

====Queen {{Anchor|Akorithi}} ({{Year|3E 369}} - ?d)====
{{Lore:Akorithi}}

===={{Anchor|Alandro Sul}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Alandro Sul}}

====Empress {{Anchor|Alessia}} (?b - {{Year|1E 266}})====
{{Lore:Alessia}}

====Countess {{Anchor|Alessia Caro}} ({{Year|3E}} ?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Alessia Caro}}

===={{Anchor|Alisanne Dupre}} (?b - {{Year|4E 188}})====
{{Lore:Alisanne Dupre}}

===={{Anchor|Amaund Motierre}} (?b - ?d)====
A member of the {{Lore Link|Motierre}} family, a very old and powerful {{Lore Link|Breton}} family firmly established in {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}. They were apparently powerful enough to find the ambitious Amaund a seat on the {{Lore Link|Elder Council}}. Around {{Year|4E 201}}, Amaund yearned to take the Ruby Throne for himself, and was looking for a way to have Emperor {{Lore Link|Titus Mede II}} assassinated so that he might have it.{{ref|name=DRSilence|[[Skyrim:The Silence Has Been Broken|Events]] of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}

===={{Anchor|Amiel Lannus}} (?b - {{Year|3E 153}})====
A renowned knight who first made a name for himself in the {{Lore Link|War of the Isle}}, Sir Amiel Lannus was a hero of {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}, maybe all of {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}. He formed the {{Lore Link|Knights of the Nine}} in {{Year|3E 111}}, with the aim of recovering the Crusader's Relics of {{Lore Link|Pelinal|Pelinal Whitestrake}}. The order attracted the most prestigious knights in Tamriel and performed many great deeds, even recovering four of eight relics. However, the political machinations of the {{Lore Link|War of the Red Diamond}} tore the order apart. Sir Amiel spent many of his final years living in solitude in the order's former priory.{{ref|name=TKOTN|{{Cite Book|The Knights of the Nine}}}} In {{Year|3E 153}}, he made a final quest to recover an ancient relic he had been seeking for decades, but unfortunately did not survive the attempt.{{ref|name=SAJ|{{Cite Book|Sir Amiel's Journal}}}}

[[Image:RG-npc-Richton.gif|right|thumb|Amiel Richton (Redguard)]]
====Governor {{Anchor|Amiel Richton}} ({{Year|2E 816}} - {{Year|2E 864}})====
Lord-Admiral Richton became the Provisional Governor of {{Lore Link|Stros M'Kai}} after defeating Prince {{Lore Link|A'tor}} at the {{Lore Link|Battle of Hunding Bay}}. He governed with a heavy hand, freely killing dissenting Crowns and stamping out piracy in the region.{{ref|name=OBTrithik|[[Redguard:Trithik|Trithik]]'s dialogue in [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]]}} Died in the year {{Year|2E 864}} at the hands of the rebel {{Lore Link|Redguard}} {{Lore Link|Cyrus}}.{{ref|name=Redguard|Events of [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]]}}

"Bold Admiral Richton", is mentioned as a popular drinking song in ''{{Lore Link|The Balladeer's Fakebook}}''.

====Anahbi====
{{Lore:Anahbi}}

====Anaxes====
{{Lore:Anaxes}}

===={{Anchor|Ancano}} (?b - {{Year|4E 201}})====
An {{Lore Link|Altmer}} agent of the {{Lore Link|Thalmor}} assigned as "advisor" to the Arch-Mage of the {{Lore Link|College of Winterhold}}. The other members of the College deeply and somewhat openly distrusted him due to his Thalmor allegiance. He vehemently denied that he was a spy, claiming only that the Thalmor wished to promote relations with the College (even though he belittled their work and importance frequently). He was deeply distrustful of the {{Lore Link|Psijic Order}}, which he viewed as a rogue organization and enemy of the Thalmor. When the {{Lore Link|Eye of Magnus}} was brought to the College from {{Lore Link|Saarthal}}, he turned on them, killing several mages, including Arch-Mage {{Lore Link|Savos Aren}}. He sought to gain control over the Eye, and nearly created a devastating catastrophe which would have had enormous ramifications on {{Lore Link|Winterhold (city)}} and possibly all of {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}. However, he was thwarted and killed before he could do anything truly disastrous, and the Eye was subsequently secured by the Psijic Order.{{ref|name=SREye|[[Skyrim:The Eye of Magnus|Events]] of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}

====Queen {{Anchor|Anequina Sharp-Tongue}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Anequina Sharp-Tongue}}

====Count {{Anchor|Andel Indarys}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Andel Indarys}}

===={{Anchor|Andorak Septim}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore Link|Uriel Septim IV|Emperor Uriel IV's}} son, Andorak was disinherited after his father's death by vote of the {{Lore Link|Elder Council}}, and a cousin more closely related to the original {{Lore Link|Tiber Septim|Septim}} line was proclaimed {{Lore Link|Cephorus II}} by the next year, {{Year|3E 248}}. For the first nine years of Cephorus II's reign, those loyal to Andorak battled the Imperial forces. In an act that the sage {{Lore Link|Eraintine}} called "Tiber Septim's heart beating no more", the Council granted Andorak the {{Lore Link|High Rock}} kingdom of Shornhelm to end the war. Andorak's descendants still rule {{Lore Link|Shornhelm}} as of the {{Lore Link|Fourth Era}}.{{ref|name=BHOTE3|{{Cite Book|Brief History of the Empire v 3}}}}

===={{Anchor|Anido J. Jhone}}, Royal Archaeologist (?b - ?d)====
[[Lore:Anido J. Jhone|Anido J. Jhone]] was a royal archaeologist who informally translated the text known as [[Lore:The Epic of the Grey Falcon|The Epic of the Grey Falcon]], based on the crew of a warship from the [[Lore:Summerset Isles|Summerset Isles]]. Based on the information, they surmised from the text, the story comes from the [[Lore:Interregnum|Interregnum]] in the [[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]], sometime after the [[Lore:Knahaten Flu|Knahaten Flu]] in {{Year|2E 560}}.{{Ref|name=TEotGF|{{Cite Book|The Epic of the Grey Falcon}}}}

====Emperor {{Anchor|Antiochus Septim}} (?b - {{Year|3E 120}})====
Crowned the Emperor of Tamriel in {{Year|3E 99}}{{ref|name=TTAT|{{Cite Book|The Third Era Timeline}}}} after the death of his father, {{Lore Link|Pelagius Septim II|Pelagius II}}. Antiochus was certainly one of the most flamboyant of the usually austere Septim family. He had many mistresses and nearly as many wives, and was renowned for his grandness of dress and his good humor. The province of {{Lore Link|Summerset Isle|Summerset}} was nearly lost to the {{Lore Link|Maormer}} under the leadership of Antiochus, 11 years ({{Year|3E 110}}) after he took the throne. An alliance between Antiochus and the Kings of Summerset only managed to defeat King Orgnum of the island-kingdom of Pyandonea due to a freak storm.{{ref|name=BHOTE1}} Legend credits the {{Lore Link|Psijic Order}} of the Isle of Artaeum with the magic behind the storm.{{ref|name=BHOTE1}}{{ref|name=FOA|{{Cite Book|Fragment: On Artaeum}}}} Unfortunately, his reign was rife with civil wars, surpassing even that of his grandfather {{Lore Link|Uriel Septim II|Uriel II}}. Emperor Antiochus died after 13 years of rule and his daughter, {{Lore Link|Kintyra II}}, took the throne.{{ref|name=BHOTE1}} He was considered a good ruler despite his drinking and "moral laxity".{{ref|name=BOTWQ|{{Cite Book|Biography of the Wolf Queen}}}}

His character plays a substantial role in the popular historical fiction ''{{Lore Link|The Wolf Queen}}''.

====King {{Anchor|Anumaril}} (?b - ?d)====
The {{Lore Link|Ayleid}} arch-mage and king of {{Lore Link|Abagarlas}}, a city of {{Lore Link|Molag Bal}} worshippers in a deadly feud with the {{Lore Link|Meridia}}-worshipping people of {{Lore Link|Delodiil}}.{{ref|name=BTMM|{{Cite Book|By the Master's Mace}}}} During the course of the cities' war, Anumaril began preparations for a {{Lore Link|necromancy|necromantic}} ritual, the Mortuum Vivicus, which would drain all life from Delodiil.{{ref|name=CJ|{{Cite Book|Curano's Journal}}}} This prompted a daring raid by the Meridians, who were able to infiltrate Abagarlas, kill Anumaril's entire family, and destroy the city entirely.{{ref|name=TWOD|{{Cite Book|The Whithering of Delodiil}}}}

At some point, Anumaril created the {{Lore Link|Staff of Towers}}, a powerful artifact whose eight segments corresponded to one of the metaphysical Towers that shape the fabric of Nirn. At the time of the {{Lore Link|Alessian Slave Rebellion}}, he fled to {{Lore Link|Valenwood}}.{{ref|name=AE4TET|{{Cite Book|Aurbic Enigma 4: The Elden Tree}}}} Hailed as one of the greatest architects of the {{Lore Link|First Era}}, he was responsible for several constructions in the province, such as the Great Seal of {{Lore Link|Belarata}} and the archives in the {{Lore Link|Reliquary of the Stars}}.{{ref|name=ONLa|[[Online:Laranalda|Laranalda]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

One of his more notable creations was the Orrery at {{Lore Link|Elden Root}}. On his travels to the great tree, he found the Stone of the Green-Sap Tower, the Perchance Acorn, and tried to recreate the {{Lore Link|The Towers|Tower}} of {{Lore Link|White-Gold Tower|White-Gold}}. His attempt failed, due to a fundamental incompatibility between Ayleid and Bosmer magic and belief.{{ref|name=AE4TET}}

====Saint {{Anchor|Aralor}} the Penitent (?b - ?d)====
The patron saint of Tanners and Miners. A condemned criminal, Aralor repented his sins and made a circuit of the great pilgrimages on his knees.{{ref|name=LOTS|{{Cite Book|Lives of the Saints}}}} He serves as an example that it is possible for anyone to truly repent and start anew. His famed hair shirt is an artifact coveted by the {{Lore Link|Tribunal Temple}}.{{ref|name=MWHair|[[Morrowind:Hair Shirt of St. Aralor|Events]] of [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]]}}

===={{Anchor|Aranias}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Aranias}}

====Lady {{Anchor|Arannelya}} (?b – ?d)====
A {{Lore Link|Thalmor}} general during the {{Lore Link|Great War}}, she led the {{Lore Link|Aldmeri Dominion}}'s invasion of {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}} while her counterpart, Lord {{Lore Link|Naarifin}}, kept the Imperial legions occupied in {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}. Her main force crossed western Cyrodiil, bypassing {{Lore Link|Anvil}} and {{Lore Link|Kvatch}}, and rendezvoused with smaller Aldmeri forces that landed on Hammerfell's southern coast, quickly overrunning the {{Lore Link|Redguard}} defenses. Over the next two years, Arannelya unsuccessfully besieged {{Lore Link|Hegathe}} and briefly captured {{Lore Link|Skaven}} before being driven back across the {{Lore Link|Alik'r Desert}} by an army of Imperial veterans and Redguards. Although the campaign in Cyrodiil ended in {{Year|4E 175}}, the conflict continued in Hammerfell for another five years, during which time Lady Arannelya presumably continued to command the Aldmeri army.{{ref|name=TGW|{{Cite Book|The Great War (book)}}}}

===={{Anchor|Arden-Sul}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Arden-Sul}}

===={{Anchor|Arkan}}, Scribe of Daggerfall (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Arkan}}

===={{Anchor|Arlimahera}}, Blood Queen of Hegathe (?b - ?d)====
Queen of {{Lore Link|Hegathe}}, in {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}. The daughter of an eminent {{Lore Link|Crowns|Crown}}, Murahd of Rihad, she was one of two wives to High King {{Lore Link|Ar-Azal}}.{{ref|name=TWAHD|{{Cite Book|The Worthy Ar-Azal, His Deeds}}}} She also served as a general, leading an attempted conquest of {{Lore Link|Bangkorai}} with a relentlessness that earned her the sobriquet "Blood Queen".{{ref|name=ONDial|{{huh}}'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} An entry written in her journals in {{Year|2E 412}} is the earliest known record mentioning the name of the {{Lore Link|Dark Brotherhood}}.{{ref|name=TBOD|{{Cite Book|The Brothers of Darkness}}}}

===={{Anchor|Arniel Gane}} (?b - ?d)====
A {{Lore Link|Breton}} researcher and {{Lore Link|Alteration}} mage at the {{Lore Link|College of Winterhold}} in the {{Lore Link|Fourth Era}}. Arniel studied the ruins of {{Lore Link|Saarthal}}, and had a particular interest in {{Lore Link|Dwemer}} artifacts. He was both passionate about his work and paranoid that it would be stolen or compromised. He endeavored to discover the secret behind one of the greatest mysteries of {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}: the disappearance of the Dwemer. In {{Year|4E 201}}, his work came to a head when he finally succeeded in having the dagger {{Lore Link|Keening}} brought to the College from {{Lore Link|Morrowind}}. He used {{Lore Link|Kagrenac}}'s tool in an experiment he had devised to try to recreate the event that caused the Dwemer's disappearance. Unfortunately, Arniel's recreation proved to be too accurate, and he has not been seen since.{{ref|name=SRArniels|[[Skyrim:Arniel's Endeavor|Events]] of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}

===={{Anchor|Arngeir}} (?b - ?d)====
A powerful {{Lore Link|Greybeards|Greybeard}} who lived in and around {{Year|4E 201}}. At the time, Arngeir was the only human of the order with the control over his {{Lore Link|thu'um}} necessary to speak without fear of wreaking havoc. Therefore, he acted as the Greybeards' representative during this period. He was the right hand of {{Lore Link|Paarthurnax}}, the Grandmaster of the order. Arngeir tutored the {{Lore Link|Hero|Dovahkiin}} in the {{Lore Link|Way of the Voice}} and helped bring about the final defeat of {{Lore Link|Alduin}}.{{ref|name=Skyrim|Events of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}

====Countess {{Anchor|Arriana Valga}} ({{Year|3E}} ?b - ?d)====
The "righteous and reliable" {{Lore Link|Imperial}} ruler of {{Lore Link|Chorrol}} during the {{Lore Link|Oblivion Crisis}}.{{ref|name=GTL|{{Cite Book|Guide to Leyawiin}}}} Her beloved husband Charus had been the hereditary Count of Chorrol, but she inherited the throne after his death in battle against {{Lore Link|Nord}} clansmen from {{Lore Link|Skyrim}}. She was known as a devout follower of {{Lore Link|Akatosh}}. Her daughter, {{Lore Link|Alessia Caro}}, became Countess of {{Lore Link|Leyawiin}}, though the two visited each other regularly.{{ref|name=GTC|{{Cite Book|Guide to Chorrol}}}}

===={{Anchor|Arslan II}} ({{Year|3E 319}} - {{Year|3E 377}})====
King of {{Lore Link|Daggerfall (kingdom)}} in the {{Lore Link|Third Era#Fourth Century|Fourth Century of the Third Era}}. Husband of {{Lore Link|Nulfaga}} and father of the future King {{Lore Link|Lysandus}}.{{ref|name=DFC|{{Cite Book|The Daggerfall Chronicles|ns_base=BK}}}}

====Artorius Ponticus (?b - {{Year|2E 583}})====
[[File:ON-npc-Primate Artorius.jpg|thumb|right|Primate Artorius Ponticus (ESO)]]
{{Lore:Artorius Ponticus}}

===={{Anchor|Askar}} (?b - 4E? d)====
A Harbinger of the {{Lore Link|Companions}} in the {{Lore Link|Fourth Era}}. While in {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}, he found {{Lore Link|Kodlak Whitemane}} working as a bodyguard and recruited him. Upon his demise, he named Kodlak his successor.{{ref|name=SRKodlak|[[Skyrim:Kodlak Whitemane|Kodlak Whitemane]]'s dialogue in [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]].}}

====King {{Anchor|Athyn Llethan}} (?b - {{Year|3E 427}})====
The figurehead {{Lore Link|Dunmer}} ruler of {{Lore Link|Mournhold}} known as the "Grace of All Gods, King of {{Lore Link|Morrowind}}, Duke of Mournhold; Defender of the People and the Law; Loyal Servant of the Emperor and {{Lore Link|Empire}}", etc.{{ref|name=HP|{{Cite Book|Hospitality Papers|ns_base=MW}}}}{{ref|name=TN|{{Cite Book|Tradehouse notice|ns_base=MW}}}} He was the uncle and successor to Queen {{Lore Link|Barenziah}} after the {{Lore Link|Arnesian War}} in {{Year|3E 396}}, and he was himself succeeded by his great-nephew {{Lore Link|Hlaalu Helseth}}.{{ref|name=PGE3Morrowind|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Morrowind}}}} His chosen heir had been his beloved nephew, {{Lore Link|Talen Vandas}}, although he died, apparently in a hunting accident, shortly before Athyn himself. Shortly before his death, he was dealing with complaints about high tariffs on liquor.{{ref|name=RB3E426|{{Cite Book|Red Book of 3E 426}}}}{{ref|name=YB3E426|{{Cite Book|Yellow Book of 3E 426}}}} It's rumored Helseth poisoned him, and was also involved in Talen's death.{{ref|name=TCT|{{Cite Book|The Common Tongue|ns_base=Tribunal}}}} King Llethan was survived by his wife, Ravani Llethan.

====Prince {{Anchor|A'tor}} (?b - ?d)====
Son of the last High King of {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}, {{Lore Link|Thassad II}}, who had died in {{Year|2E 862}}. After his death, the {{Lore Link|Forebears|Forebear}} faction took control of {{Lore Link|Sentinel}}, the capital of Hammerfell. Prince A'tor rallied his {{Lore Link|Crowns|Crown}} supporters at his principality of {{Lore Link|Stros M'Kai}} and launched a bloody attempt to recapture the city by sea. However, he was taken by surprise by {{Lore Link|Tiber Septim}}'s assistance of the Forebears, and was eventually defeated by their combined forces at the {{Lore Link|Battle of Hunding Bay}}, near Stros M'Kai.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}} His soul was later fused with his longsword to create the {{Lore Link|Soul Sword}}, which was instrumental in liberating the island of Stros M'Kai from the clutches of Lord-Admiral {{Lore Link|Richton}}.{{ref|name=Redguard}}

===={{Anchor|Attrebus}} ({{Year|2E 841}} - {{Year|2E 864}})====
{{Lore:Attrebus (soldier)}}

===={{Anchor|Attrebus (warlord)}} (?b - ?d)====
Described as one of the many pretender kings of the {{Lore Link|Interregnum}}, the warlord Attrebus claimed the Imperial Throne sometime between {{Year|2E 430}} and the reign of the {{Lore Link|Longhouse Emperors}}, and mounted a campaign to rid {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} of foreign influence by expelling the {{Lore Link|Akaviri}}. The Akaviri refugees went on to settle in {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}} and found the city of {{Lore Link|Rimmen}}.{{ref|name=PGE1Elseweyr|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|The Elsweyr Confederacy}}}}

====Prince {{Anchor|Attrebus Mede}} ({{Year|4E 18}} - ?d)====
[[Books:The Infernal City/Prince Attrebus Mede|Prince Attrebus Mede]] was the son of {{Lore Link|Titus Mede|Emperor Titus Mede}}. He was one of several heroes involved in the banishment of {{Lore Link|Umbriel}} in {{Year|4E 40}}.{{ref|name=TIC|{{Cite Book|The Infernal City}}}}

====Lord {{Anchor|Auberon Flyte}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Auberon Flyte}}

===={{Anchor|Aubk-i}} ({{Year|3E 386}} - ?d)====
{{Lore:Aubk-i}}

===={{Anchor|Augur of Dunlain}} (?b - ?d)====
The Augur was once a {{Lore Link|Breton}} mage from {{Lore Link|Dunlain}} and a well-respected, brilliant student of the {{Lore Link|College of Winterhold}}. He delved into {{Lore Link|magic}} in a way no one had seen before, and showed a particular talent for the {{Lore Link|Restoration|School of Restoration}}. However, during an ambitious magical experiment, he lost his corporeal form, appearing instead as a large sphere of blue-white light. He has resided in the Midden, the catacombs beneath the College, ever since. He possesses a unique wisdom which the College has relied on in times of need. In {{Year|4E 201}}, he guided the College through the potentially disastrous crisis they faced following their excavation of {{Lore Link|Saarthal}} and the discovery of the {{Lore Link|Eye of Magnus}}.{{ref|name=SRGood|[[Skyrim:Good Intentions|Events]] of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}

[[File:ON-npc-Queen Ayrenn.jpg|thumb|right|Queen Ayrenn of Alinor (ESO)]]

====Queen {{Anchor|Ayrenn}} of Alinor ({{Year|2E 555}} - ?d)====
{{Lore:Ayrenn}}

===={{Anchor|Azra Nightwielder}} (?b - ?d)====
{{Lore:Azra Nightwielder}}

==References==
<references/>

Lore:Ra Gada

2019-11-04T01:02:03Z

The Silencer: moved

<noinclude>{{Lore Factions Trail}}[[Category:Lore-All Terms]]<div style="float: right; background: #EBE0C8; border-left: 2px solid #CEC4AF; border-radius: 5px; padding: 15px; margin:0 0 5px 5px; width: 25%;">''"Ra Gada. You all know that the elves are outside our walls. These infidels call us barbarians. They would drive us from this land, but what the elves do not know is that Ruptga himself guided us to these shores. He decreed that the Alik'r would be our home. Today the infidels will see the strength of the Shehai. Onsi will guide our blades. Today the sands will run red with elven blood!"'' — ''[[Lore:Xakhwan|King Xakhwan]]'s speech at the Ash'abah Pass''</div>__NOTOC__</noinclude>
The {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}} (sometimes spelled '''Ra' Gada'''{{Ref|name=SK|Events of [[Shadowkey:Shadowkey|Shadowkey]]}} or '''Ra'Gada'''{{Ref|name=OM|Events of [[OBMobile:Oblivion Mobile|Oblivion Mobile]]}}) was the name given to the Yokudan "Warrior Wave" that left the doomed continent of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}} and sailed towards {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}. This mass colonization occurred in four successive waves during the eighth and ninth centuries of the {{Lore Link|First Era}}, and spanned approximately twenty eight years.{{ref|name=CM28RG|{{Cite Book|Crafting Motifs 28: Ra Gada}}}}{{ref|name=RTHATH|{{Cite Book|Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes}}}} The native {{Lore Link|Orc}}s, {{Lore Link|Nede}}s and {{Lore Link|Breton}}s fell to them quickly, as did the various creatures and beasts farther inland. Eventually, they claimed the entire province after only a few major battles and established a new home for the Yokudan people called {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}.{{Ref|name=PGE3H|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Hammerfell}}}}

The term Ra Gada became corrupted to {{Lore Link|Redguard}}, and although it originally referred only to the warriors of the refugees, it gradually came to be used to refer to the whole race.{{Ref|name=PGE3H}}<noinclude>
{{NewLine}}
==The Warrior Waves==
:''"No pity or mercy shall be afforded the wretch who stands against the Warrior Wave"'' — ''[[Lore:Plea for Open Eyes|The Unveiled Azadiyeh]]''
[[File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|right|thumb|300px|A map showing the islands of [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]], the ancient home of the Redguards]]
===Frandar Hunding===
The first recorded wave of migration took place around {{Year|1E 780}}, prior to the destruction of Yokuda. After winning a war against Emperor {{Lore Link|Hira}}, {{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}} and his army of {{Lore Link|sword-singer}}s left their homeland and sailed to Hammerfell.{{ref|name=RTHATH}} Alongside him were renown warriors such as {{Lore Link|Ra Abah}}, {{Lore Link|Razul}} and his son {{Lore Link|Divad Hunding}}.{{ref|name=ONRAG|[[Online:Ramati at-Gar|Ramati at-Gar]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}{{ref|name=ONSai|[[Online:Sai Sahan|Sai Sahan]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Hunding's flotilla of ships landed in Hammerfell and discovered vast numbers of giant {{Lore Link|goblin}} strongholds littering the sands. Frandar refused to co-exist with the {{Lore Link|Flint-Tooth Tribe|Flint-Tooth}} tribe on their new homeland, and rallied his army to slay the beasts. Frandar was killed in one of the early conflicts, but Divad pushed onward and conquered the {{Lore Link|Alik'r Desert}}.{{ref|name=ONTKF|[[Online:Throne Keeper Farvad|Throne Keeper Farvad]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}{{ref|name=ONRAG}}

===The Tavans===
The next wave is believed to have occurred around the time of Yokuda's sinking in {{Year|1E 792}}.{{ref|name=PGE3OL|{{Cite Book|PGE|3|Other Lands}}}} This wave consisted of ships that departed from both the continent and its islands, including {{Lore Link|Yath}} and {{Lore Link|Akos Kasaz}}, the largest island of Yokuda and home to its capital. The bulk of the refugees, including the {{Lore Link|Na-Totambu}} ruling class, were put ashore on the island of {{Lore Link|Herne}} while the Ra Gada sailed on to mainland {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} in {{Year|1E 808}}.{{Ref|name=PGE1|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}}{{Ref|name=PGE3OL}}{{Ref|{{Cite Book|Holidays of the Iliac Bay}}}}

The fleet first landed at {{Lore Link|Hegathe}} on the southwest coast of Hammerfell. From Hegathe they spread along both southern and western coasts, while others continued north and east into Hammerfell itself.{{Ref|name=STJOA|{{Cite Book|Sentinel, the Jewel of Alik'r}}}}

To the southeast went the second wave, also known as the "Tavan wave". The Tavans revered the Yokudan bird-god {{Lore Link|Tava}}, and believed she guided them to Herne. As such Tavan arms and armor were replete with bird imagery.{{ref|name=CM28RG}}{{ref|name=VOF|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith...}}}}{{ref|name=ContPlat|[[Online:Contraband R|Ra Gada Style Platinum]] contraband item in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Their fleet of fifty-six ships traveled towards {{Lore Link|Hunding Bay}} and the southern coast of Hammerfell.{{ref|name=ContLode|[[Online:Contraband R|Ra Gada Lodestone Compass]] contraband item in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} The island of {{Lore Link|Stros M'Kai}} was one of the first landfalls settled by the Yokudans.{{ref|name=ONloadStros|[[Online:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} They discovered the peninsula of {{Lore Link|Hew's Bane|Khefrem's Boot}}. Led by Prince {{Lore Link|Hubalajad}}, he established the city of {{Lore Link|Abah's Landing}} and built a citadel named No Shira.{{ref|name=IDOPH|{{Cite Book|In Defense of Prince Hubalajad}}}} Some accounts speak of a Ra Gada sect known as the {{Lore Link|Glinting Talons}}. These warriors also revered Tava and were possibly related to the Tavans. They were known to engrave their blades with the wings of a hawk, and employed a fighting style so aggressive that it left their enemies standing stunned. They fought in a conflict known as the Battle of Six Hands, but much of the details are lost to history.{{ref|name=GT|{{Cite Book|Glinting Talons}}}}
[[File:LO-map-Hammerfell (Oblivion Codex).jpg|right|thumb|300px|{{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}, the current home of the Redguards]]

===Grandee Yaghoub===
To the north went the third wave of warrior-sailors under the leadership of Grandee {{Lore Link|Yaghoub}}, in ships they had brought from Akos Kasaz. Yaghoub was the first of the Ra Gada to discover the {{Lore Link|Iliac Bay}} as he rounded {{Lore Link|Cape Shira}}. Yaghoub, following the constellation of {{Lore Link|the Steed}}, decided to make his home on the northern coast of Hammerfell and established the city of {{Lore Link|Sentinel}}.
{{Ref|name=STJOA}}{{ref|name=LOTYC|{{Cite Book|Legend of the Yokudan Chargers}}}} Many of the Ra Gada kings were wealthy corsairs, and raided Breton coastal cities and merchant vessels along the southern Iliac Bay.{{ref|name=ONYokudan|[[Online:Yokudan King|Yokudan King]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} However on one occasion, Peregrine {{Lore Link|Direnni}} drove an entire Ra Gada flotilla back to Sentinel by using her prodigious sorcery to manipulate the waves of the Iliac Bay.{{ref|name=O|{{Cite Book|Once}}}}

Ra Gada colonists from the island of Yath clashed with an {{Lore Link|Altmer}}i clan known as the {{Lore Link|Corelanya Clan|Corelanya}}. They quickly established settlements along the coasts of Cape Shira, and built a grand palace in a valley known as the {{Lore Link|Ash'abah Pass}}. They also attacked the Altmeri inhabitants of {{Lore Link|Salas En}}, and established their own settlement within the ruins.{{Ref|name=TSEE|{{Cite Book|The Salas En Expedition}}}} The Yokudans pushed farther inland into {{Lore Link|Bangkorai}} and discovered the ruins of {{Lore Link|Nilata}}, which were also inhabited by {{Lore Link|Mer|Elves}}.{{ref|name=ONloadNilata|[[Online:Nilata Ruins|Nilata Ruins]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

===The Anka-Ra===
The fourth wave of Ra Gada was arguably the most ruthless. Led by the self proclaimed emperor {{Lore Link|Tarish-Zi}}, the {{Lore Link|Anka-Ra}} wave cut a bloody swath across Hammerfell and all the way into {{Lore Link|Craglorn}} in their search for a new home.{{ref|name=WOTRG|{{Cite Book|Warlords of the Ra Gada}}}}{{ref|name=ONloadHelra|[[Online:Hel Ra Citadel|Hel Ra Citadel]] [[Online:Loading Screens|loading screen]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} In their wake, the Nedes as a distinctive people disappeared from the historical record shortly after their arrival, although some accounts claim Nedic culture was already fading prior to the Ra-Gada.{{ref|name=NOTDL|{{Cite Book|Nedes of the Deathlands}}}} Of note are a band of prominent {{Lore Link|Ansei}} known as [[Lore:This Text Property of Leki's Blade|The Four]]. According to legend, their prowess with the Shehai was unmatched and they single-handedly captured Nedic fortifications, breached walls, and cut down entire armies.{{ref|name=TTPOLB|{{Cite Book|This Text Property of Leki's Blade}}}}

The Anka-Ra established {{Lore Link|Hel Ra Citadel}}, a vast complex believed to be used as a training ground for their {{Lore Link|Ansei}}.{{ref|name=CAC|{{Cite Book|Castles and Coffers Volume III: Hel Ra Citadel}}}}{{ref|name=EJ|{{Cite Book|Elenaire's Journal|ns=ON}}}}

==The Forebears==
Once the Ra Gada had established footholds in Hammerfell, the Na-Totambu ruling council and the Yokudan nobility followed and rapidly resumed their traditional rule. In response the renowned warrior Razul, a contemporary of Divad Hunding, made himself Yokeda (or Lord) to cement the power of the Ra Gada.

After conquering Hammerfell, the Yokudans found themselves in a time of relative peace. Many Ra Gada put down their swords, in favor of their love of farming and building. Within three generations, many Yokudans forgot the teachings of the Way of the Sword, leaving them vulnerable until the time of {{Lore Link|Derik Hallin}}.{{ref|name=TTTTOH|{{Cite Book|The True-Told Tale of Hallin, Pt. 1}}}}{{ref|name=ONNan|[[Online:Nandanath Thrice-Noble|Nandanath Thrice-Noble]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

Under the provincial organization of the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}, Redguard society fractured to form two "parties" to aid Cyrodiil's administration of Hammerfell. The Na-Totambu ruling class retained the rights of noble council, and began calling themselves the "{{Lore Link|Crowns}}" to illustrate their history of leadership and nobility. The warriors of the Ra Gada were granted rights of ownership within their tribal districts. This empowerment fundamentally changed the Ra Gada, who began to call themselves the "{{Lore Link|Forebears}}", to emphasize the fact that they arrived on Tamriel first.{{Ref|name=PGE1}} Despite the Forebears' later desire to assimilate, their forefathers were strongly opposed to outsiders during the First Era, and were mostly responsible for preventing the {{Lore Link|Alessian Doctrines}} from having a strong presence in Hammerfell.{{Ref|name=PGE1C|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Cyrodiil}}}}

==Notes==
* The emblem of the Ra Gada was said to be the water symbol, however no known representation of it exists.{{ref|name=ContPouch|[[Online:Contraband R|Redguard Messenger Pouch]] contraband item in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}
* The warlords of the Ra Gada were awarded medals when they first arrived on Tamriel's shores, some of which were still in circulation into the mid-Second era.{{ref|name=ContBadge|[[Online:Contraband R|Ra Badge of the Ra Gada]] contraband item in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}
* In {{Year|3E 397}}, several Ra Gada artifacts began circulating around the {{Lore Link|Dragonstar}} area. Light armor, blunt weapons, longbows and magically protective warpaint were among the documented items.{{Ref|name=SK}}
* Several items of Ra Gada weaponry also came to light in Cyrodiil in {{Year|3E 433}}, at the time of the {{Lore Link|Oblivion Crisis}}.{{Ref|name=OM}}

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:ON-place-Ancestor's Landing.jpg|[[Online:Ancestor's Landing|Ancestor's Landing]] marks the Ra Gada's arrival
File:ON-npc-King Xakhwan.jpg|{{Lore Link|Xakhwan|King Xakhwan}} drove the Corelanya Clan from Hammerfell
File:ON-place-Ash'abah Pass.jpg|The Yokudan settlement at the Ash'abah Pass
File:ON-npc-Ra Gada Warriors.jpg|Ra Gada warriors at the Ash'abah Pass
File:ON-quest-The Initiation.jpg|Ra Gada warriors led by King Xakhwan
File:ON-place-Hel Ra Citadel.jpg|The ruins of Hel Ra Citadel
File:ON-concept-Anka-ra warriors.png|Anka-Ra warriors concept art
File:ON-concept-Ra Gada Style.jpg|Tavan Ra Gada armor concept art
</gallery>

==See Also==
===Books===
* {{Book Link|Crafting Motifs 28: Ra Gada}}
* {{Book Link|Warlords of the Ra Gada}}
* {{Book Link|This Text Property of Leki's Blade}}
* {{Book Link|The Salas En Expedition}}
* {{Book Link|Castles and Coffers Volume III: Hel Ra Citadel}}
* {{Book Link|Sentinel, the Jewel of Alik'r}}
* {{Book Link|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Hammerfell}}
* {{Book Link|Blasius' Unfinished Manuscript}}

==References==
<references/></noinclude>

Lore:Gods T

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{{Lore Gods Trail}}
====Tall Papa====
See [[Lore:Ruptga|Ruptga]].

===={{Anchor|Talos}}, {{Lore Link|Tiber Septim}}, the Dragonborn====
[[File:OB-Window-Talos.jpg|thumb|right|Talos]]
Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Talos is the most important hero-god of Mankind. In his mortal form, known as {{Lore Link|Tiber Septim}}, he conquered all of [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]] and ushered in the [[Lore:Third Era|Third Era]] (and the Third Empire). After death, his spirit ascended to the heavens to become the ninth and youngest divine, under the name given to him by the Nords—Talos.{{ref|name=TAH|{{Cite Book|The Arcturian Heresy}}}} Also called [[Lore:Gods Y#Ysmir|Ysmir]], 'Dragon of the North'.{{ref|name=VOF|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith...}}}} One of the [[Lore:Nine Divines|Nine Divines]] (the major gods worshipped throughout Tamriel).{{ref|name=FMGAE|{{Cite Book|For My Gods and Emperor}}}} Less prominent sects, such as the [[Lore:Talos Cult|Talos Cult]], have been inspired by his apotheosis. In the [[Lore:Fourth Era|Fourth Era]], worship of Talos was banned as a result of the [[Lore:White-Gold Concordat|White-Gold Concordat]]. However, many of the Nords of Skyrim continued to revere him despite these strict terms.{{ref|name=TTM|{{Cite Book|The Talos Mistake}}}}

===={{Anchor|Tava}}, Yokudan Bird God====
[[File:ON-item-Tava-Statue.jpg|thumb|right|A statue of Tava, Yokudan Bird God]]
[[Lore:Yokuda|Yokudan]] spirit of the air and sun. Tava is most famous for leading the Yokudans to the isle of {{Lore Link|Herne}} after the destruction of their homeland. She has since become assimilated into the mythology of [[Lore:Kynareth|Kynareth]]. She is still very popular in [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]] among sailors, and her shrines can be found in most port cities.{{ref|name=VOF}} The Redtail Hawk is considered sacred to Tava,{{ref|name=ONWritingQuill|[[Online:Contraband_R#Royal Redtail Hawk Writing Quill|Royal Redtail Hawk Writing Quill]] Item Description}} while conversely, [[Lore:Harpy|Harpies]] are seen as abominations by her faithful.{{ref|name=ONHarpyEgg|[[Online:Listens-to-Sea#Distracting Harpy Egg|Distracting Harpy Egg]] Item Description}}

===={{Anchor|Thartaag}}, The World-Devourer====
An aspect of [[Lore:The Adversary|The Adversary]], believed to be the {{Lore Link|Skaal}}'s version of {{Lore Link|Alduin}}.{{ref|name=TSOAS|{{Cite Book|The Story of Aevar Stone-Singer}}}}

===={{Anchor|Tribunal}} (Almalexia, Sotha Sil, Vivec), Gods of Morrowind====
[[File:LO-gods-Tribunal.jpg|right|thumb|A fresco depicting the Tribunal. From left to right: Vivec, Almalexia and Sotha Sil]]
[[Lore:Tribunal Temple|The Tribunal]], also called Almsivi, is the triune of [[Lore:Almalexia (god)|Almalexia]], [[Lore:Sotha Sil|Sotha Sil]], and [[Lore:Vivec|Vivec]] worshipped by the {{Lore Link|Dunmer}}, with the exception of {{Lore Link|Ashlanders}}. They ruled the Dunmer as living gods from a few years after the {{Lore Link|Battle of Red Mountain}}, circa {{Year|1E 700}}, until the cataclysms of the {{Lore Link|Nerevarine Prophecies}}, around {{Year|3E 427}}. In the {{Lore Link|Red Year}} of {{Year|4E 5}}, the Dunmer reverted to their traditions of pure {{Lore Link|Daedra}} and ancestor worship, relegating the Tribunal to saints.{{ref|name=TBORM|{{Cite Book|The Battle of Red Mountain}}}}{{ref|name=TR|{{Cite Book|The Reclamations}}}}

===={{Anchor|Trinimac}}, Strong God of the Aldmer====
{{Lore:Trinimac}}

===={{Anchor|Tsun}}, Nordic God of Trials against Adversity====
{{Lore:Tsun}}

===={{Anchor|Tu'whacca}}, Tricky God====
{{Lore:Tu'whacca}}

==References==
<references/>

Lore:Varieties of Faith, Crown Redguards

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{{Lore Book
|ON=1
|sumtitle=[[Lore:Varieties of Faith in Tamriel|Varieties of Faith]], Crown Redguards
|author=[[Lore:Books by Author#Brother Mikhael Karkuxor|Brother Mikhael Karkuxor]] of the Imperial College
|description=A summary of the pantheon of the Redguard Crowns
}}
The {{Lore Link|Forebears}}, who have been longest in {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} and had the stronger relationship with the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}, worship substantially the same pantheon as the {{Lore Link|Imperial}}s and {{Lore Link|Breton}}s, whereas the more conservative {{Lore Link|Crowns}} still revere the ancient {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}n gods.

====The Eight of the Crowns:====

{{Lore Link|Satakal}} (The Worldskin):

Yokudan god of everything, a fusion of the concepts of {{Lore Link|Anu}} and {{Lore Link|Padomay}}. Basically, Satakal is much like the {{Lore Link|Nord}}s' {{Lore Link|Alduin}}, who destroys one world to begin the next. In Yokudan mythology, Satakal had done (and still does) this many times over, a cycle which prompted the birth of spirits that could survive the transition. These spirits ultimately become the Yokudan pantheon. Popular god among the Crowns of the {{Lore Link|Alik'r}} nomads.

{{Lore Link|Ruptga}} (Tall Papa):

Chief deity of the Yokudan pantheon. Ruptga, more commonly "Tall Papa," was the first god to figure out how to survive the Hunger of Satakal. Following his lead, the other gods learned the "{{Lore Link|Walkabout}}," or a process by which they can persist beyond one lifetime. Tall Papa set the stars in the sky to show lesser spirits how to do this, too. When there were too many spirits to keep track of, though, Ruptga created a helper out the dead skin of past worlds. This helper is {{Lore Link|Sep}} (see below), who later creates the {{Lore Link|Nirn|world of mortals}}.

{{Lore Link|Tu'whacca}} (Tricky God):

Yokudan god of souls. Tu'whacca, before the creation of the world, was the god of Nobody Really Cares. When Tall Papa undertook the creation of the Walkabout, Tu'whacca found a purpose; he became the caretaker of the {{Lore Link|Far Shores}}, and continues to help Redguards find their way into the afterlife.

{{Lore Link|Zeht}} (God of Farms):

Yokudan god of agriculture who renounced his father after the world was created, which is why Tall Papa makes it so hard to grow food.

{{Lore Link|Morwha}} (Teat God):

Yokudan fertility goddess, fundamental deity in the Yokudan pantheon, and the favorite of Tall Papa's wives. Still worshiped in various areas of {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}, including {{Lore Link|Stros M'Kai|Stros M'kai}}, Morwha is always portrayed as four-armed, so that she can "grab more husbands."

{{Lore Link|Tava}} (Bird God):

Yokudan spirit of the air. Tava is most famous for leading the Yokudans to the isle of {{Lore Link|Herne}} after the destruction of their homeland. She has since become assimilated into the mythology of {{Lore Link|Kynareth}}. She is still very popular in Hammerfell among sailors, and her shrines can be found in most port cities.

{{Lore Link|Onsi}} (War God; Boneshaver):

Notable warrior god of the Yokudan {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}}, Onsi taught {{Lore Link|Man}}kind how to pull their knives into swords.

{{Lore Link|Diagna}} (Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade):

Hoary thuggish cult of the Redguards that originated in Yokuda during the {{Lore Link|Twenty-Seven Snake Folk Slaughter}}. Diagna was an avatar of the {{Lore Link|HoonDing}} (the Yokudan God of Make Way, see below) that achieved permanence. He was instrumental to the defeat of the {{Lore Link|Lefthanded Elves}}, as he brought {{Lore Link|orichalc}} weapons to the Yokudan people to win the fight. In Tamriel, he led a very tight-knit group of followers against the {{Lore Link|Orc}}s of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}} during the height of their ancient power.

====Additional Deities with Significant Redguard Cults:====

{{Lore Link|Leki}} (Saint of the Spirit Sword):

Daughter of Tall Papa, Leki is the goddess of aberrant swordsmanship. The {{Lore Link|Na-Totambu}} of Yokuda warred to a standstill during the {{Lore Link|Merethic Era|mythic era}} to decide who would lead the charge against the {{Lore Link|Lefthanded Elves}}. Their swordmasters, though, were so skilled in the Best Known Cuts as to be matched evenly. Leki introduced the Ephemeral Feint. Afterwards, a victor emerged and the war with the {{Lore Link|Aldmer}} began.

{{Lore Link|HoonDing}} (The Make Way God):

Yokudan spirit of "perseverance over infidels." The HoonDing has historically materialized whenever the Redguards need to "make way" for their people. In Tamrielic history this has only happened twice, in the {{Lore Link|First Era}} during the Ra Gada invasion.

{{Lore Link|Malooc}} (Horde King):

An enemy god of the Ra Gada who led the {{Lore Link|Goblin}}s against the Redguards during the First Era. Fled east when the army of the HoonDing overtook his Goblin hordes.

{{Lore Link|Sep}} (The Snake):

Yokudan version of {{Lore Link|Lorkhan}}. Sep is born when Tall Papa creates someone to help him regulate the spirit trade. Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of Satakal, and he convinces some of the gods to help him make an easier alternative to the Walkabout. This, of course, is the world as we know it, and the spirits who followed Sep become trapped here, to live out their lives as mortals. Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions, but his hunger lives on as a void in the stars, a "{{Lore Link|the Serpement|non-space}}" that tries to upset mortal entry into the Far Shores.
{{Book End}}

Lore:Varieties of Faith, The Forebears

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{{Lore Book
|ON=1
|sumtitle=[[Lore:Varieties of Faith in Tamriel|Varieties of Faith]], The Forebears
|author=[[Lore:Books by Author#Brother Mikhael Karkuxor|Brother Mikhael Karkuxor]] of the Imperial College
|description=A summary of the pantheon of the Redguard Forebears
}}
The {{Lore Link|Forebears}}, who have been longest in {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} and had the stronger relationship with the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}, worship substantially the same pantheon as the {{Lore Link|Imperial}}s and {{Lore Link|Breton}}s, whereas the more conservative {{Lore Link|Crowns}} still revere the ancient {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}n gods.

====The Eight of the Forebears====

{{Lore Link|Akatosh}} ({{Lore Link|Dragon}} God of Time):

Akatosh is the chief deity of the {{Lore Link|Eight Divines}} (the major religious cult of {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} and its provinces), and one of two deities found in every {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}ic religion (the other is {{Lore Link|Lorkhan}}). He is generally considered to be the first of the Gods to form in the {{Lore Link|Beginning Place}}; after his establishment, other spirits found the process of being easier and the various pantheons of the world emerged. He embodies the qualities of endurance, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy.

{{Lore Link|Tava}} (Bird God):

Yokudan spirit of the air. Tava is most famous for leading the Yokudans to the isle of {{Lore Link|Herne}} after the destruction of their homeland. She has since become assimilated into the mythology of {{Lore Link|Kynareth}}, and is often worshiped by the Forebears in that name. She is very popular in {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}} among sailors, and her shrines can be found in most port cities.

{{Lore Link|Julianos}} (God of Wisdom and Logic):

Often associated with {{Lore Link|Jhunal}}, the {{Lore Link|Nord}}s' father of language and mathematics, Julianos is the god of literature, law, history, and contradiction, and is thus the patron of magistrates (and wizards).

{{Lore Link|Dibella}} (Goddess of Beauty):

Popular god of the Eight Divines. She has nearly a dozen different cults, some devoted to women, some to artists and aesthetics, and others to erotic instruction.

{{Lore Link|Tu'whacca}} (Tricky God):

Yokudan god of souls. Tu'whacca, before the creation of the world, was the god of Nobody Really Cares. When {{Lore Link|Tall Papa}} undertook the creation of the {{Lore Link|Walkabout}}, Tu'whacca found a purpose; he became the caretaker of the {{Lore Link|Far Shores}}, and continues to help {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s find their way into the afterlife. His cult is sometimes associated with {{Lore Link|Arkay}} in the more cosmopolitan regions of Hammerfell, and he is often worshiped in that name by Forebears.

{{Lore Link|Zeht}} (God of Farms):

Yokudan god of agriculture who renounced his father after the world was created, which is why Akatosh makes it so hard to grow food. Analogous to {{Lore Link|Zenithar}}, and sometimes worshiped in that name.

{{Lore Link|Morwha}} (Teat God):

Yokudan fertility goddess. Fundamental deity in the Yokudan pantheon, and the favorite of Tall Papa's wives. Still worshiped in various areas of Hammerfell, including {{Lore Link|Stros M'Kai|Stros M'kai}}. Morwha is always portrayed as four-armed, so that she can "grab more husbands." Analogous to Mara, and sometimes worshiped in that name by the Forebears.

{{Lore Link|Stendarr}} (God of Mercy):

Stendarr's sphere includes compassion, charity, justice, and righteous rule, and is the favorite god of Redguard "gallants" (knights).

====Additional Deities with Significant Redguard Cults:====

{{Lore Link|Leki}} (Saint of the Spirit Sword):

Divine daughter of Tall Papa, Leki is the goddess of aberrant swordsmanship. The {{Lore Link|Na-Totambu}} of Yokuda warred to a standstill during the {{Lore Link|Merethic Era|mythic era}} to decide who would lead the charge against the {{Lore Link|Lefthanded Elves}}. Their swordmasters, though, were so skilled in the Best Known Cuts as to be matched evenly. Leki introduced the Ephemeral Feint. Afterwards, a victor emerged and the war with the {{Lore Link|Aldmer}} began.

{{Lore Link|HoonDing}} (The Make Way God):

Yokudan spirit of "perseverance over infidels." The HoonDing has historically materialized whenever the Redguards need to "make way" for their people. In Tamrielic history this has only happened twice, in the {{Lore Link|First Era}} during the {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}} invasion.

{{Lore Link|Malooc}} (Horde King):

An enemy god of the Ra Gada who led the {{Lore Link|Goblin}}s against the Redguards during the First Era. Fled east when the army of the HoonDing overtook his Goblin hordes.

{{Lore Link|Sep}} (The Snake):

Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Sep is born when Tall Papa creates someone to help him regulate the spirit trade. Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of {{Lore Link|Satakal}}, and he convinces some of the gods to help him make an easier alternative to the Walkabout. This, of course, is the world as we know it, and the spirits who followed Sep become trapped here, to live out their lives as mortals. Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions, but his {{Lore Link|Heart of Lorkhan|hunger}} lives on as a void in the stars, a "[[Lore:the Serpent|non-space]]" that tries to upset mortal entry into the Far Shores.
{{Book End}}

Lore:Sea of Pearls

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<noinclude>{{cleanup-lpp|writtenby=Vincentius1}}{{Lore Places Trail|Pearls}}{{Lore Place Summary
|continent=None
|region=Eltheric Ocean
|type=Body of Water
|name=Sea of Pearls
|appears=ESO
|image=ON-place-Sea of Pearls.jpg
|imgdesc=The Sea from Wasten Coraldale
}}[[File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|thumb|right|Map of West Tamriel]]</noinclude>
The [[Lore:Sea of Pearls|Sea of Pearls]] is a large body of water found west of the continent of [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]] and its western waters, the [[Lore:Abecean Sea|Abecean Sea]]. It consists of the western-half of the [[Lore:Summerset Isles|Summerset Isles]], the outer reaches of the [[Lore:High Rock|High Rock]] sea-complex, but it mostly contains other continents beyond Tamriel's grasp, such as the sunken-islands of [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]], the dreaded archipelago of [[Lore:Thras|Thras]], and the underwater kingdom of [[Lore:Ul'vor Kus|Ul'vor Kus]]. It is part of the greater [[Lore:Eltheric Ocean|Eltheric Ocean]] and it is neighbored by the Abecean Sea to the east, the [[Lore:Azurian Sea|Azurian Sea]] in the north, and both the [[Lore:Cape of the Blue Divide|Cape of the Blue Divide]] and the [[Lore:Southern Sea|Southern Sea]] to the southeast.{{Ref|name=RGMap|[[:File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|Map of West Tamriel — The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard]]}} How the Sea of Pearls acquired its name is unknown, whether the water resembles {{Lore Link|pearl}}s or if the region is known for its pearls is not clear.<noinclude>

{{NewLeft}}

==History==
====The Summerset Isles and its ancient rivals====
[[File:ON-place-Sea Keep.jpg|thumb|right|Sea Keep (ESO)]]
In the mid-{{Lore Link|Merethic Era}}, the {{Lore Link|Aldmer}} settled on what is now known as the {{Lore Link|Summerset Isles}}, spreading onto the island's western coast, building great cities such as {{Lore Link|Alinor (city)}}, {{Lore Link|Corgrad}}, and {{Lore Link|Lillandril}}, even expanding into islands off the coast, on the Sea of Pearls (i.e., {{Lore Link|College of Sapiarchs}}, {{Lore Link|Eyevea}} and {{Lore Link|Wasten Coridale}}).{{Ref|name=AEXII|{{Cite Book|Auridon Explored, Chapter XII}}}} The Summerset Elves eventually became the {{Lore Link|Altmer}}, and built large, illustrious kingdoms, while staying to themselves throughout history, as the races of Tamriel evolved. Over time, the High Elves conflicted with their neighbors, the {{Lore Link|Maormer}} of {{Lore Link|Pyandonea}}, and the {{Lore Link|Sload}} of {{Lore Link|Thras}}. The latter race are the inhabitants of the Sea of Pearls, residing in an archipelago of {{Lore Link|coral}}. The Summerset Isles had been in constant conflict with these races, over the control of the eternal isles, so much so that the province's north and west coast is heavily-defended, for the purpose of protecting the island from the Sload and Maormer. {{Lore Link|Cey-Tarn Keep|Cey-Tarn}} and {{Lore Link|Sea Keep}} were among the many forts made on the Sea of Pearls.{{Ref|name=ESOCeyTarn|[[Online:Cey-Tarn Keep|Cey-Tarn Keep]] loading screen in [[Online:Summerset (chapter)|ESO: Summerset]]}} There have been many battles between the High Elves and the Sload, such as the {{Lore Link|Sack of Skywatch}} ({{Year|1E 1301}}) and the {{Lore Link|War of the Uvichil}} ({{Year|1E 2911}} — {{Year|1E 2917}}).{{Ref|name=PGE3ES|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Summerset}}}} All the while, the Altmer and the Maormer held several skirmishes in the waters between them. In {{Year|2E 486}}, High King {{Lore Link|Hidellith}} conflicted with a small fleet off the coast of Alinor, which brought them to their homeland, the island-continent of Pyandonea. The last known appearance of the Maormer was in {{Year|3E 110}}, during the {{Lore Link|War of the Isle}}. It was King {{Lore Link|Orgnum}}'s fleet against the Kingdoms of Summerset, and the support of Emperor {{Lore Link|Antiochus}}' Imperial Navy. It took the arcane might of the {{Lore Link|Psijic Order}} to defeat the grand fleet.{{Ref|name=PGE3EOL|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 3rd Edition/Other Lands}}}}

====The Lost Islands of Yokuda & the Ra Gada====
[[File:ON-place-Tu'whacca's Throne.jpg|thumb|left|Tu'whacca's Throne (ESO)]]
In the distant west was the island-continent of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}, the ancient homeland of the {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s. It was completely surrounded by the Sea of Pearls, and it is the furthest known extent of the body of water.{{Ref|name=RGMap}} In the late years of the continent, it was ruled Emperor {{Lore Link|Hira}}, whose attempt to take control over the Yokudan Empire from the common-folk, by persecuting the {{Lore Link|Sword-Singers}}, warriors that followed a martial philosophy regarding the mastery of the sword known as the ''"Way of the Sword."'' Thus began the {{Lore Link|War of the Singers}}, a critical moment in the Yokudan's history, a battle between Emperor Hira's forces and {{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}}'s sword-singers. The war came to a climax at the foothills of {{Lore Link|Hattu Mountain}}, where Hunding's warriors were able to obliterate Hira's rag-tag armies, but at the cost of more than three hundred thousand warriors. Hunding and the sword-singers left Yokuda from the sea-city of {{Lore Link|Arch}}, for new and unknown lands across the Sea of Pearls, which was the eventual province of {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}.{{Ref|name=RTHaTH|{{Cite Book|Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes}}}}

The Yokudans remained on their island-continent for several years after Frandar Hunding's departure to Hammerfell. In {{Year|1E 792}}, the islands of Yokuda had sunken into the Sea of Pearls, reportedly lost forever. To this day, there have been many theories regarding the cause of its extinction, whether it was natural causes, or caused by its people. One such source was that it was caused by a series of earthquakes that targeted the very foundation of the islands. Another idea was that the renegade group of {{Lore Link|Ansei}} ( the highest-ranked sword-singers) known as the {{Lore Link|Hiradirge}}, masters of {{Lore Link|stone magic}}, were the cause of the island's destruction, using a forbidden sword technique. It was their way of ruining what they could not rule,{{Ref|name=PGE3EOL}} which is further corroborated by an account from the {{Lore Link|Celestial}} incarnation of {{Lore Link|The Warrior}}.{{Ref|name=ESOWarrior|[[Online:The Warrior (Celestial)|The Warrior]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Regardless, the refugees of Yokuda sailed eastward across the Sea of Pearls, in the same direction as Frandar Hunding, to the island of {{Lore Link|Herne}}. From there, the {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}} paved their way through Hammerfell, and re-settled as the {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s of Hammerfell.{{Ref|name=PGE1EH|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Hammerfell}}}}

====The Thrassian Plague & the All-Flags Navy====
[[File:ON-place-Statue of Syrabane.jpg|thumb|right|Syrabane, the Apprentices' God]]
In {{Year|1E 2200}}, the Sload of Thras had spread the terrifying disease known in history as the {{Lore Link|Thrassian Plague}}. The plague caused wide-spread pandemonium across the provinces of western Tamriel, claiming half of the lives of Tamriel, bringing the end of ancient civilizations like the Sixteen Kingdoms of {{Lore Link|Elsweyr}},{{Ref|name=AaPAI|{{Cite Book|Anequina and Pellitine: An Introduction}}}} and powerful kingdoms like {{Lore Link|Corgrad}},{{Ref|name=RJ|{{Cite Book|Rultari's Journal}}}} and the nations of the {{Lore Link|Iliac Bay}}.{{Ref|name=AHoD|{{Cite Book|A History of Daggerfall}}}} It was reported that the Thrassian Plague decimated the Tamrielic population, bringing it down by half. In retaliation, the {{Lore Link|Colovian}} King of {{Lore Link|Anvil}}, {{Lore Link|Bendu Olo}} gathered armies across west Tamriel, including Hammerfell, the Summerset Isles, {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, and the continent's outer reaches like {{Lore Link|Black Marsh}},{{Ref|name=JoT1|{{Cite Book|Journal of Tsona-Ei, Part One}}}} for a full-scale invasion against the archipelago of Thras.{{Ref|name=PGE1EC|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Cyrodiil}}}}

The {{Lore Link|All Flags Navy}} has been described as the largest allied naval force in Tamriel's history. Among them were many historical figures, the most well-known was {{Lore Link|Syrabane}}, the Altmeri God-Ancestor of Magic, who used the power of his {{Lore Link|Warlock's Ring|ring}} to save many people from the plague.{{Ref|name=VoFTHE|{{Cite Book|Varieties of Faith: The High Elves}}}} From the island of {{Lore Link|Stirk}}, the All Flags Navy had set forth across the Sea of Pearls,{{Ref|name=JoT2|{{Cite Book|Journal of Tsona-Ei, Part Two}}}} to besiege and slaughter the Sload to extinction. With unknown magic spewing from the {{Lore Link|Coral Tower (Thras)}}, the islands were sunken into the ocean for many years until it eventually resurfaced.{{Ref|name=PGE1ETWR|{{Cite Book|Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/The Wild Region}}}} While people such as Bendu Olo were able to return from the Sea of Pearls,{{Ref|name=PGE1EC}} half of the fleet was sunken into the sea by the otherworldly magic that came from the Coral Tower, into the depths of {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}}.{{Ref|name=JoT3|{{Cite Book|Journal of Tsona-Ei, Part Three}}}} The maelstrom swallowed the battlefield into Coldharbour, where it became {{Lore Link|the Lost Fleet}}.{{Ref|name=JoT4|{{Cite Book|Journal of Tsona-Ei, Part Four}}}}

==Summerset Isles==
[[File:ON-place-Lillandril.jpg|thumb|left|Lillandril (ESO)]]
The Sea of Pearls laden the {{Lore Link|Summerset Isle}} from the north and west coast. The cities of {{Lore Link|Alinor (city)}} and {{Lore Link|Lillandril}} overlook the waters atop of the mountain foothills. The islands of {{Lore Link|College of Sapiarchs}}, {{Lore Link|Eyevea}}, and {{Lore Link|Wasten Coridale}} are found. The Sea of Pearls empties into the sound of Summerset, where the docks of Alinor are located, the hills surrounding {{Lore Link|Ebon Stadmont}} and {{Lore Link|Sea Keep}} descend to the beaches, and a river coming down from {{Lore Link|Cloudrest}} empties into the water. The coast between the Alinor docks and its parent city is known as the {{Lore Link|Oleander Coast}}. In the area surrounding Lillandril are the lowlands known as the {{Lore Link|Augury Basin}}, which give way to the oceans.{{Ref|name=ESOMapS|[[:File:ON-map-Summerset Isle.jpg|Map of Summerset — The Elder Scrolls Online: Summerset]]}} This is exemplified in the sunken city now known as the {{Lore Link|Corgrad Wastes}}. The rest of the city had been swallowed by a sinkhole, resting in large gaping caves where the city's people reportedly continue to live.{{Ref|name=ESOWA|[[Online:Wasting Away|Wasting Away]] quest in [[Online:Summerset (chapter)|ESO: Summerset]]}} Because of the Sload's constant interjections into Summerset, they have left several landmarks across the main island's coast, such as {{Lore Link|Abyssal Geyser}}s, which are powered by their {{Lore Link|water magic}} and one of their {{Lore Link|Abyssal Pearl}}s, archaic items that attract the hidden monsters of the Sea of Pearls.{{Ref|name=IJA|{{Cite Book|Indirim's Journal, Assembled|ns_base=Online}}}} It is because of the Sload's invasions, the island's coast is heavily-fortified, as seen through {{Lore Link|Cey-Tarn Keep}} and Sea Keep.{{Ref|name=ESOCeyTarn}} Throughout the coast is riddled with silk white [[Lore:Coral#Summerset Coral|coral]], which is often festering with {{Lore Link|Coral Crab}}. Other creatures found on Summerset's coastlines are the {{Lore Link|Reef Viper}}, the {{Lore Link|Salamander}}, and the {{Lore Link|Mud Hopper}}s.

==Yokuda==
[[File:ON-place-Pillar of the Singing Sun.jpg|thumb|right|Pillar of the Singing Sun (ESO)]]
The islands of Yokuda were once the home of the Redguards, but it eventually sank into the Sea of Pearls, supposedly lost forever. While it is widely believed that the continent is no longer inhabitable, there are reports that trade existed between Tamriel and Yokuda as far as the late-{{Lore Link|Third Era}} in {{Year|3E 433}}.{{Ref|name=OBUlfgar|[[Oblivion:Ulfgar Fog-Eye|Ulfgar Fog-Eye]]'s dialogue in [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion]]}} The political geography of the continent is largely unknown, but what is certain is that Yokuda consisted of four large-islands. The biggest one is {{Lore Link|Akos Kasaz}}, with the distinct duality, both gentle and brutal. It has been described as moody and many-sided and ruler and rebel. The capital of the empire and Akos Kasaz was the city of {{Lore Link|Totambu (Yokuda)}}. The second-largest is the island of {{Lore Link|Yath}}, found south of Akos Kasaz. It was rugged and arid, but magnificent nonetheless. The island was once the home of what is now the {{Lore Link|Ash'abah}}, the exiled-nomads of the {{Lore Link|Alik'r Desert}}.{{Ref|name=TSEE|{{Cite Book|The Salas En Expedition}}}} It hosted a settlement known as {{Lore Link|Makan}}. Next was the island of {{Lore Link|Kanesh}}, described as volcanic and tall, with highlands engulfed by the ravaging heat. The settlement of {{Lore Link|Lumut}} was active on the island. The next island was {{Lore Link|Samara}}, consisting of lush, lowlands that bore the sweetest fruit and many natural harborages.{{Ref|name=TLIoOY|{{Cite Book|The Lost Islands of Old Yokuda}}}} The rest are much smaller islands that surround the much bigger ones. These include, {{Lore Link|Bahia}}, {{Lore Link|Irranhu}}, {{Lore Link|Kardesh}}, {{Lore Link|Klithi}}, and {{Lore Link|Moni}}.{{Ref|name=RGMap}} There are several other landmarks, whose locations in these islands are unknown. The provinces of {{Lore Link|High Desert}} and {{Lore Link|Seawind}} are found in Yokuda, as well as {{Lore Link|Hattu Mountain}} and the great port-city of {{Lore Link|Arch}}, found in these provinces respectively.{{Ref|name=RTHaTH}}

==Thras, Ul'vor Kus & Other Islands==
[[File:RG-map-Nalonga and Ravan.jpg|thumb|left|Nalonga and Ravan (Redguard)]]
The island territories between Tamriel and Yokuda have little information to them, save for the best-known island of them all, the dreaded archipelago of {{Lore Link|Thras}}, located southwest of {{Lore Link|the Chain}},{{Ref|name=PGE1ETWR}} is found deep in the Sea of Pearls.{{Ref|name=JoT2}} The islands are constantly changing. The earliest maps of the archipelago depict sixteen islands that surround each other like a coral atoll, but throughout the eras and centuries, maps of Thras were varied and inconsistent. By the waning years of the Third Era, in {{Year|3E 432}}, the largest island of Thras was known as {{Lore Link|Agonio}}, and it is one of the most consistent parts of the map, albeit changing sizes. A black lagoon is found in the center of Thras, where intricate coral reefs and large shipwrecks are found.{{Ref|name=PGE3EOL}}

The atoll of Thras is the home of the land Sload, whereas the {{Lore Link|Sea Sload}} lived in the underwater kingdom of {{Lore Link|Ul'vor Kus}}, found somewhere in the Sea of Pearls. There are more mysterious and elusive than their land brethren, believed to have disappeared centuries before the mid-{{Lore Link|Interregnum}} by the {{Lore Link|Sapiarchs}} of Summerset Isle. Instead of forming kingdoms like in Thras, the Sea Sload consist of cabals, groups of them that seek to achieve a specific goal.{{Ref|name=TMotSS|{{Cite Book|The Myth of the Sea Sloads}}}} The {{Lore Link|Abyssal Cabal}} was active in {{Year|2E 582}} and sought to take the Isle of Summerset into the ocean through sinkholes and the abyssal geysers that dot the coastlines. The Sea Sload, {{Lore Link|K'Tora}} was able to infiltrate the island of {{Lore Link|Artaeum}} and manipulate the Ritemaster of the Psijic Order, {{Lore Link|Iachesis}}.{{Ref|name=ESOBM|[[Online:Buried Memories|Buried Memories]] quest in [[Online:Summerset (chapter)|ESO: Summerset]]}}, but their efforts were in vain. South of Yokuda is a series of islands with no information regarding them. The largest island of this archipelago was {{Lore Link|Nalonga}}, which hosted the settlement of {{Lore Link|Zanzar}}, and southeast of that is {{Lore Link|Ravan}}. The two smaller islands are called {{Lore Link|Asil Yelir}} and {{Lore Link|Siuol Yelir}}.{{Ref|name=RGMap}}

==Gallery==
<gallery>
ON-creature-Yaghra Strider.jpg|Yaghra Strider (ESO)
ON-creature-B'Korgen.jpg|Sea Sload (ESO)
ON-place-Welenkin Abyssal Geyser.jpg|An Abyssal Geyser
ON-place-Corgrad Wastes.jpg|Corgrad Wastes (ESO)
ON-icon-dye stamp-Oceanic Sea of Pearls.png|A color palette based on the Sea of Pearls
</gallery>

==References==
<references/>
</noinclude>

Lore:Cespar

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<noinclude>{{cleanup-lpp}}{{Lore Places Trail}}
{{Lore Place Summary
|continent=none
|type=Island
|name=Cespar
|image=RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png
|imgdesc=The only known map showing Cespar
}}</noinclude>
{{Lore Link|Cespar}} (also spelled '''Caspar''') is a large island off the western coast of {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}, south of {{Lore Link|Herne}}.{{ref|name=Map|[[:File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|Map of West Tamriel]]}} Tralan the Two-Blade, a {{Lore Link|Redguard}} swordsman who became one of {{Lore Link|Titus Mede|Emperor Titus Mede I}}'s most valued men, hailed from Cespar.{{ref|name=TIC|{{Cite Book|The Infernal City}}}}

By the late {{Lore Link|Third Era}}, the island appeared to be considered part of {{Lore Link|High Rock}} in certain maps.{{ref|[[:File:LO-map-Tamriel (Oblivion Codex).gif|Oblivion map of Tamriel]]}}<noinclude>
{{NewLeft}}

==Notes==
* The alternate spelling Caspar is seen on the map of West Tamriel, but the island is later called Cespar in ''The Infernal City''.

==References==
<references/>

{{Nirn}}</noinclude>

Lore:Abecean Sea

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<noinclude>{{cleanup-lpp}}{{Lore Places Trail}}
{{Lore Place Summary
|continent=None
|type=Body of Water
|name=Abecean Sea
|appears=[[Oblivion:Abecean Sea|Oblivion]], [[Online:Abecean Sea|ESO]]
|image=OB-place-Abecean Sea.jpg
|imgdesc=View of the Abecean Sea from the [[Lore:Gold Coast|Gold Coast]]
}}[[File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|thumb|right|Map featuring the Abecean Sea]]</noinclude>
The [[Lore:Abecean Sea|Abecean Sea]] <noinclude>([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Pronunciation_respelling_key|/ə.biː.'siː.ən/]] {{pronunciation|ə|bee|see|ən}})</noinclude> is a body of water to the west of [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]] that sits between [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]], [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]], [[Lore:Valenwood|Valenwood]], and [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Summerset Isle]]. The sea is encompassed by the [[Lore:Eltheric Ocean|Eltheric Ocean]].{{Ref|name=MOWT|[[:File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|Map of West Tamriel]]}}<noinclude>

The sea surrounds several islands. [[Lore:Stirk|Stirk]] is the easternmost and lies just off the western coast of Cyrodiil. Farther west is [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]], which lies to the south of Hammerfell and is similarly dominated by [[Lore:Redguard|Redguards]]. Due west of Stros M'Kai is [[Lore:The Chain|The Chain]], a series of three islands of which little is known, a lack that also to applies to [[Lore:Cespar|Cespar]], a larger island to the west-northwest. Just northwest of Cespar is [[Lore:Herne|Herne]], which was used as a temporary refuge by the Redguards as they migrated across the sea from their ancestral home in [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]].{{Ref|name=PGE1|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}} Lastly, at the western ends of the sea, are [[Lore:The Systres|The Systres]] and [[Lore:Pankor|Pankor]]. The Systres is a group of three islands northwest of Summerset Isle, and Pankor lies to their northwest. A whirlpool located somewhere in the Abecean, known as the Maelstrom of Bal, is rumored to be a portal to [[Lore:Oblivion|Oblivion]]. Ships which ride its waters are said to disappear.{{Ref|{{Cite Book|The Doors of Oblivion}}}}

It is known that Abecean whales were hunted down for their wax since, at least, the [[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]].{{ref|name=ESOCAWBW|The description of [[Online:Contraband A#Abecean Whale Buckle Wax|Abecean Whale Buckle Wax]] in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} The sea lends its name to the [[Lore:Abecean Longfin|Abecean Longfin]], although the species is only known to inhabit the waters of [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]].
{{NewLeft}}

==See Also==
* For game-specific information, see the [[Oblivion:Abecean Sea|Oblivion]] and [[Online:Abecean Sea|ESO]] articles.

==References==
<references/>
{{Stub|Place}}</noinclude>

Online:Warchief Haakon

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{{Online NPC Summary
|image=ON-npc-Warchief Haakon.jpg
|imgdesc=Warchief Haakon
|loc=[[Online:HoonDing's Watch|HoonDing's Watch]]
|race=Nede
|gender=Male
|difficulty=1
|reaction=Hostile
|faction=
|condition=Spirit
|level=36
}}
[[File:ON-npc-Warchief Haakon (old).jpg|thumb|Warchief Haakon's old model]]
'''Warchief Haakon''' was a [[ON:Nede|Nede]] who resided on [[Lore:Herne|Herne]] during the First Era. He fought against both the invading Lefthanded Elves and Yokudans, but was soon defeated by the Ra Gada. He is summoned after the Nede essence is collected, and will yell ''""You are not welcome here! We will defend our land!"'' before attacking you.
{{NewLeft}}
==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|March of the Ra Gada}}

==Notes==
* He previously used [[ON:Nord Style|Nord-style]] heavy armor, which was later replaced with one of the armor sets from the [[Online:Crown Store/Wardrobe/Costumes|Nedic Armor Pack]].


{{Stub|NPC}}

Lore:Chamberlain Haskill Answers Your Questions

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{{Trail}}
{{Lore Book
|source=*[[Lore:Elder Scrolls Online - Loremaster's Archive|ESO Loremaster's Archive]] ([http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/06/12/loremasters-archive-an-interview-with-haskill link])
|author=Chamberlain [[Lore:Haskill|Haskill]]
|description=Sheogorath's chamberlain answers questions on lore
|nocat=1
|notrail=1
}}
'''"To {{Lore Link|Haskill}},'''

'''I have found myself wondering if there is some reason the {{Lore Link|Sheogorath|Mad God}} is so fond of {{Lore Link|cheese}}. Is there a significant reason for this? I mean no disrespect, of course, but I find the taste of cheese to be, well, disgusting. Does the Mad God just like the taste of cheese, or is it something deeper? I apologize if I offend you by saying this, but one must truly be mad to love the foulness of... cheese. I am merely a curious {{Lore Link|Nord}} with far too much time on her hands, but I am hoping you will have the extra time to answer my brief - and hopefully not insulting - question.'''

'''Sincerely, Aniki Frostward of {{Lore Link|Windhelm}} "'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "I am not, myself, fond of cheese, and cannot explain the Master's predilection for it. Unless he does it just to be irritating. Sometimes he does things just to be irritating."

'''"Hi! I think I'm not mad, but may you read the following like I am so.'''

'''How is it possible to a {{Lore Link|Daedric Princes|Daedra Lord}}, an {{Lore Link|et'Ada}} spirit of chaos, to be the Prince of Order {{sic|like is|like}} {{Lore Link|Jyggalag}}, the antagonist of Sheogorath?'''

'''And another question for you<nowiki>:</nowiki> Have you ever considered that all of us, et'Ada and mortals, are nothing but characters of a game being played by unknown entities from outside the {{Lore Link|Aurbis}}? Maybe then that Sheogorath is the amused voice of the game creators.'''

'''And {{sic|another more|another}} question for you<nowiki>:</nowiki> Is the cheese a corpse of milk? - Shanke-Naar Righthorn"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Oh, yes. Very funny. In my position I get a lot of this sort of thing, as you might expect. You might even wonder if I'm tired of it yet. I'd wager that, if you thought hard, you could come up with the answer. Maybe.

"Nonetheless, the Master has given me the task of answering these questions, so I shall duly answer them. In my experience, Daedric Princes are much like cheese<nowiki>:</nowiki> some of them are hard, some of them are soft, and some of them have blue veins running through their substance. Thus<nowiki>:</nowiki> Jyggalag.

"And if we are nothing but characters in an elaborate game played by unknown entities, well, why aren't I having any fun?"

'''"Dear Haskill (or otherwise servant of {{Lore Link|Sheggorath}}, yes?),'''

'''I was wondering. In my people's Pantheon - the {{Lore Link|Khajiit}} Pantheon, yes, it seems my people believe in Sheogorath, or, well, Sheggorath as we call him as a Mad God, understandably. Do my people even worship Sheggorath? Or is he just labelled as a bad omen, and, why is his name put in unison for the drug addiction that comes with {{Lore Link|Skooma}} and {{Lore Link|Moon Sugar}}, eh? I do not understand - but this is probably because I am not a very cultured Khajiit. Cultured in my own terms, that is. I am cultured in, like. Stabbing Daedra.'''

'''I hope you fade into the {{Lore Link|Dark Behind the World}}, Vadanni"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Ah, the cats. I have never liked cats personally, but the Mad God enjoys their company, I suppose because they're inexplicable and unpredictable. I am told that the Khajiit revere both the {{Lore Link|Aedra}} and the {{Lore Link|Daedra}}, worshiping whichever Divine seems most applicable to whatever they're praying for or swearing by. But then, to a cat, immediate personal convenience is everything. In fact, you're not even paying attention anymore, are you?"

'''"Are the mortal inhabitants of the {{Lore Link|Shivering Isles}} subject to the effects of Time? Those who have departed {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} under Lord Sheogorath's wing seem to live for centuries in between {{Lore Link|Greymarch}}es if the ravings of madmen are to be believed. Knowledge of their fate might help assuage the grief of certain members of the {{Lore Link|Mages Guild}} who have had recent dealings with the Madgod.'''

'''– Legoless, Doyen of the {{Lore Link|United Explorers of Scholarly Pursuits}}"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Oh, of course, 'Doyen,' because assuaging the grief of mortals is so important to me. Let me be clear<nowiki>:</nowiki> inhabitants of the Shivering Isles are affected by Time, but we are not subject to it. We are subjects of Lord Sheogorath, who subjects us to whatever subjects he is in the mood to subjudicate. Because Time is subjective."

'''"Ah, the transmission worked. Lots of interference in the transliminal barriers today. Haskill, is it? I'm led to believe you're the Chamberlain to Lord Sheogorath himself. I imagine this is an administrative office that handles a wide array of interesting duties. I'm not sure if the following inquiry is within your area of expertise, but I've been curious about some of the inhabitants of Sheogorath's realm for some time. I acquired a tome a while back. (Well, "acquired" is a rather mundane way of describing a book popping out of thin air from a tiny portal and landing on my head hard enough to knock me out for the better part of an hour, but there are a lot of unusual things happening during this {{Lore Link|Planemeld}}.)'''

'''Getting back to the point, I found the subject matter fascinating. This tome seems to have originated in the realm you administrate for your Lord, and concerns some of the native flora and fauna. Several species were named which are quite alien to my home sphere of {{Lore Link|Nirn}}, such as {{Lore Link|Elytra}} and {{Lore Link|Grummite}}s. Interestingly enough, despite inhabiting a Daedric realm, these creatures are said to lay eggs and reproduce in much the same way mortal animals of {{Lore Link|Mundus}} do. I found this quite strange, as I've always been taught that only Daedra live in Oblivion realms, and that Daedra do not reproduce as we do. Was my research misleading, or are these creatures not Daedra at all? If not, where do they originate and why do they live within your Lord's sphere?'''

'''- Legate Cyclenophus of the {{Lore Link|Bretonic Imperial Restoration Society}}"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "You don't know very much about Oblivion realms, 'Legate,' if you don't know that they reflect, and are indeed physical manifestations of, the Princes who rule over them. My master is the Prince of Madness, yet for some reason you expect his realm to follow the same rules that regulate your own bland little world. Do you wonder why I have no interest in visiting Tamriel? It's an act of mad charity that Lord Sheogorath pays it any attention at all.

"What is a Legate, anyway? Is it like a Doyen? I hope not."

'''"Scribed verbatim by Svarnor Far-Traveled, on request of his brother Svalti of the same clan. Svarnor apologizes for his brother's condition and hopes this letter will not influence his application into the service of {{Lore Link|Arkay}}.'''

'''Dear Haskill, Chamberlain of He Who Is Seen In Storms, bringer of many fears and destroyer of pleasure, may his name be worshipped above all else,'''

'''I find of late a new and all-encompassing fear has encompassed me. This fear is the terror that perhaps my ears only imagine and the Mad God speaks to me not. After pondering this new and beautiful nightmare for thirty-three days, I must ask of you, please answer to me this- with all the thousands of fools in the world, believing themselves insane when they have merely said the wool and offered up words and cabbages whilst eating soul gems, how can one truly be sure they listen to the whispers echoing from the Madhouse? The neighbors whisper {{sic|to|too}}, almost as often as they listen, and the walls are thin.'''

'''What, I ask you, Haskill, Secretary of He Who Laughs in Terror, is the method with which I can attain most perfect worry? How can I master and grow in my recognition of the things which are dangerous, and the people whom I must Not Trust? Of all the thousand worships of the Bearded Man, the Mad Star, which is the trustworthy one? There are fools in the world who would think to behave in such ways as would make even the most yellow seem purpled and I will not be one of them. I have searched the libraries, but one cannot trust what is written in books- books even can be traps for the mind even as the nightmares can release them into perfect awareness.'''

'''Please, Haskill, Doorman of the Shivering Isles, please answer me. I have searched for so long to become perfect in what others call madness and fully aware of the perils which surround me. I must know- I must must must know if I have been praying and listening and seeing a farce. What of the Khajiit who live beyond the walls? Their Skooma Cat provides for them, and they see him sometimes too. Must I warn them, or watch them? Depart with them, or dispose of them? I know you, Haskill, are not perfect in your awareness. Only He is, but I beg to know things to know things to know things to know things YES THAT IS FOUR, BROTHER DO NOT INTERRUPT back to the letter oh Haskill please inform me of the answers to which I need to know the questions to listen to the dreams more closely while waking and to enter to the entrance without missing and being trapped by the deceivers they are here deceiving me always I hear their whispers in the darkness when the torches burn and in the light when they are silenced.'''

'''Sign it Svalti Far-Traveled NO DO NOT SAY YOU WROTE IT BROTHER WHAT ARE YOU WRITING NOW-'''

'''At this point, my brother collapsed into a furious fit and began to tear at the walls. I am writing this now, several hours later. I hope that it would be healing for my brother to receive a response from one who he evidently holds so close to his heart and, in addition, if this is (as I suspect) a hoax and a scam and this will go no further than some shack outside {{Lore Link|Bruma}}, I wish you to know that if my brother does not receive a response, we will personally hunt down those responsible for the lies and punish them severely in honor of the Lord of the Never There, king of the True-Seers and Laughing-Terrors and the Two-Faced Men. I hope that my application to study the service of Arkay is not influenced by this'''

'''Svarnor Far-Traveled, with assistance from Svalti of the same name."'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Here, Svarnor, this never fails. Tell your brother, 'Svalti, you must eat the eggplant. You know which one I mean. You can trust me, because I'm your friend. Not like the Others.'"

'''"Greetings Haskill, Chamberlain to the Mad God.'''

'''Rumors and stories abound regarding the deeds of your master, but there are some hidden things I would dare to inquire about.'''

'''Firstly, I have heard whispers of a Daedric Prince of Order, long since lost. As this being must be considered the embodiment of all things abhorred by your lord, I wonder if you have any knowledge of this "Jyggalag"? Has Sheogorath banished him? Or is he perhaps merely uninterested with the disorder that makes Tamriel?'''

'''Secondly, I must ask about your own nature. In a realm defined by madness of all sorts, you seem to be a most sane being. Indeed, your nature seems rather opposite to that of your lord. Who and what are you? I have heard some say that you are in fact an aspect of the Mad God, as {{Lore Link|Barbas}} is to {{Lore Link|Clavicus Vile}}. Personally, I think it more likely that you are simply (if that word applies to anything related to Sheogorath) the steward of the Shivering Isles. Still, the rumor is interesting.'''

'''{{sic|Sincerely|As sincerely}} as is possible when discussing the Mad God, Takrios the Indomitable"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "I have had similar questions about my 'nature' from Alessandra, Legoless, and an Unnamed One, so I suppose I must address the matter. I am a {{Lore Link|Vestige (creature)}}, all that remains of a mortal from your world who 'mantled' Sheogorath during an event in a previous time. As a fragment, my memory of the event is … fragmentary. I am hazy on the entire concept of 'mantling,' but it had something to do with Lord Sheogorath, myself, and this Jyggalag of whom you speak. I have asked the Mad God to explain it to me, but he just laughs and says maybe he'll tell me about it 'next year,' whatever that means.

"Sometimes the Master irritates even me. I can't remember why I put up with it, actually."

'''"Most esteemed Haskill,'''

'''It is an honour to speak to one who knows the Mad God so intimately. Although I would have preferred an audience with the enigmatic Sheogorath himself, I suppose your deep knowledge of him would suffice. I have heard from many a people how much your Lord delights in the noble taste of cheese, although I have also heard he enjoys flaying his guests first and sipping their blood {{sic|at later|later}}. Chilling. But let us focus on the cheese! What kind of mortal cheese, if any, does your lord enjoy? We {{Lore Link|Breton}}s are famous for our cheeses, and I would be most interested to learn if your Master has tasted the delicacies of {{Lore Link|High Rock}}. Do tell him of our wonderful La Chèvre Loren and the Langre du Ollere - they are best relished with a cup of blackberry wine! But enough of my ramblings! Please, relay my question to your Lord. If you would like a sample of our cheeses, I would be delighted to send you a batch when I return to my mansion in {{Lore Link|Gavaudon}}, provided there is a way to do so.''' 
'''Yours excitedly, Grand Enchanter Etienne Dumonte, of the {{Lore Link|Wayrest}} Mages Guild"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "Your application for a position in the Shivering Isles has been accepted, and you will start on Morndas as High Fromage Sommelier to Lord Sheogorath. Bring your own grapefruit spoon, and don't wear too much cologne—he hates that."

'''"I pen this letter with little patience or love for yourself or the Daedric Prince that you serve, corner of the {{Lore Link|House of Troubles}} and purveyor of chaos that he is.'''

'''However, I must confess, despite my loyalty to the {{Lore Link|Tribunal|Three}} and my boundless disdain for your domain, I do have one question burning in the back of my mind.'''

'''Many years ago, in my younger years, I had the gross misfortune of finding myself within the Shivering Isles after a Fredas night involving a shrine of Sheogorath, a copy of {{Lore Link|the Lusty Argonian Maid}} and more {{Lore Link|sujamma}} than I'd care to admit. Upon awaking back on Tamriel (how or why I was transported away from this dread realm I cannot say), I began studying the various texts and writings that discuss Sheogorath's most foul domain.'''

'''While doing so, I discovered that the Shivering Isles are also variously referred to as the Madhouse and the Asylums. I then came to wonder - is the Shivering Isles the name for Sheogorath's entire plane, or could it stretch even farther? Are the Shivering Isles perhaps a mere region, a single territory, of a larger Madhouse, a greater collection of Asylums? And how great a length, exactly, does the bewildering realm of Sheogorath truly span?'''

'''I thank you in advice for any reply as I excuse myself to atone for this sinful correspondence by saying my devotions to the Three,'''

'''- Neldam Indrano"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "My best advice to you, friend Neldam, is to go on wondering about this, devoting ever more effort to it until it dominates your every waking moment, and everything you do is overshadowed by your need to find the answer. Go do that.

"Because then, one day, you will be in a position to find out for yourself."

'''"I am but a humble servant of the lady of light and life, blessed {{Lore Link|Meridia}}. I ask this of the servant of the madgod<nowiki>:</nowiki> The number of princes is not static, Meridia proves that by her existence as a fallen {{Lore Link|Magna Ge|star child}}, is the number 16 arbitrary? Are there Daedric princes in Oblivion that are unknown to us mere mortals? Princes who have never felt the need to interact with Mundus? - Lami Wind-Speaker, Priestess of Meridia"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "The best answer to this question is another<nowiki>:</nowiki> How many, Lami Wind-Speaker, are the {{Lore Link|16 Accords of Madness|Accords of Madness}}?"

'''"To Haskill, Sheogorath's Chamberlain,'''

'''In relation {{sic|with|to}} the repatriation of {{Lore Link|Eyevea}}, I have heard recently Sheogorath bargained the ancient {{Lore Link|Abecean Sea|Abecean}} island in a confrontation with the Arch-Mage {{Lore Link|Shalidor}}. I have always wondered how {{sic|could Eyevea|Eyevea could}} disappear...'''

'''So, I ask you<nowiki>:</nowiki> is Sheogorath interested in expanding the Shivering Isles with new acquisitions after the loss of Eyevea? I fear my people in {{Lore Link|Herne}} or in the rest of the {{Lore Link|Abecean Archipelago}} could be in danger as many freemen and most nobles have left our home to fight in {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}} for the {{Lore Link|Daggerfall Covenant}}. And I have to know if I have to reinforce Herne's defenses.'''

'''Regards, Baron Yashu al-Aydin of Herne"'''

Chamberlain Haskill says, "My dear Baron, I have relayed your real estate proposal to Lord Sheogorath, and he is considering the terms under which he would agree to acquire your island of … what was the name? Herne? However, he would like to know your island's shape, as the Master likes his islands to fit into a nice paisley pattern. He doesn't like shapes that are too regular, and has a particular abhorrence for the rhombus. Herne isn't a rhombus, is it?"
{{Book End}}

Lore:Augustine Viliane Answers Your Questions

2019-11-04T00:56:56Z

The Silencer: moved

{{Trail}}
{{Lore Book
|source=*[[Lore:Elder Scrolls Online - Loremaster's Archive|ESO Loremaster's Archive]] ([http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/2015/05/29/loremasters-archive-courting-practices-in-tamriel link])
|author=Sybil {{Future Link|Augustine Viliane}}
|description=A Sibyl of Dibella answers questions on lore
|nocat=1
|notrail=1
}}
Sibyl {{Lore Link|Augustine Viliane}} says, ''"So many, many questions! I am honored by your desires for knowledge and advice, but forgive me for being unable to answer every question—for {{Lore Link|Dancing Day}} is only a few weeks off, and there is still much to prepare!"''

'''"Dear Augustine Viliane, Esteemed Sibyl of {{Lore Link|Dibella}}'''

'''I write to you in the hopes that you will guide me in my struggle to win the heart of an {{Lore Link|Mer|elven}} lad I have laid eyes upon. He is of {{Lore Link|Altmer}}i stock and recently arrived from fair {{Lore Link|Summerset Isles|Summerset}} to work at our {{Lore Link|Mages Guild|Mage's Guild}} librarium. Dear Fellandril seems more friendly and informal than most his kin, and yet my {{Lore Link|Breton}} passion and charm do not suffice. There is fire in his eyes, but {{sic|keeps|he keeps}} that typical Altmeri aloofness. I have failed to win him over with our Breton poetry and witful remarks, so I ask you - how does one court the golden-skinned beauties of Summerset? How do I breach that frigid countenance?''' 
'''Yours sincerely, Grand Enchanter Etienne Dumonte, of the {{Lore Link|Wayrest}} Mage's Guild"'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"The High Elves are famous for their interest in lineage and heritage. If you are one of the Dumontes of {{Lore Link|Gavaudon}}, your family is known for having considerable {{Lore Link|Direnni}} contributions to your bloodline. You might mention that casually in Fellandril's hearing and see if it piques his interest. Or, as you are in Wayrest, you might stop by the Temple sometime, and we can discuss it personally."''

'''"Most Esteemed Sybil of Dibella,'''

'''To put my question bluntly, what is Dibella's stance on more than two lovers in a single relationship? Right now, I am not in any relationship of the sort, nor do I have any inclination to start one.'''

'''Until I have my answer, however, my scholarly curiosity shall not be sated.'''

'''Especially in these troubled times, it seems that people would seek companionship with as many as they can, and what stronger bond is there between people than that of love?'''

'''Perhaps I am being arrogant in my speculation, but it seems to me that a trio or quad of lovers would be even more content than a pair.'''

'''After all, more people means more love, right?'''

'''I beg your forgiveness if I am displaying the ignorance of a brute.'''

'''Nevertheless, I am curious as to what Dibella's judgement is on this.'''

'''Thank you for your time.'''

'''Divines be with you, Theophilus Drafonius'''

'''PS The first letter of each sentence is not mere coincidence. We know where {{Lore Link|Brush of Truepaint|it}} is, and how to get it."'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"Ah, but the Passion Dancer bids us remember that quality of love is of the essence, not quantity. If the dance transports us, what matter the number of dancers?''

''"As to the other matter<nowiki>:</nowiki> see me Fredas night, after the service."''

'''"Most Venerable Augustine Viliane, Sibyl of Dibella at the Wayrest Temple,'''

'''I am a loyal follower of the ancient traditions of my people, but I respect those of yours. I love my homeland, but I wish {{Lore Link|Morwha}} would have one more hand to comfort my grief.'''

'''I know Dibella says<nowiki>:</nowiki> Open your heart to the noble secrets of art and love. Treasure the gifts of friendship. Seek joy and inspiration in the mysteries of love. But I wonder if those noble secrets of love are open to men as they are open to women. I wonder if the {{Lore Link|Eight Divines}} are different enough for me to change.'''

'''I fell in love with him when I was fourteen. We were friends since we were five. Since I first saw him in that way, I have never told him anything about it. We share the food, the steel and the blood, but I fear to share my feelings. I have killed and I have bled for him. But we are nobles and our families cannot waste a profitable marriage. So, I ask you and I ask Dibella: Could I seek joy and inspiration in the body of my beloved companion? Could such a strange love be acceptable to Dibella's eyes? Could I open my heart to him freely as I wish without fear? Could he love me?'''

'''Respectful regards, Baron Yashu al-Aydin of {{Lore Link|Herne}}"'''

'''"Dear Madame Viliane, may this letter finds you healthy and lighthearted.'''

'''As an {{Lore Link|Argonian}} hatched and raised in {{Lore Link|Daggerfall}}, I have a fairly good understanding of how most see intimate relationships with those that are deemed uncivilized. Being newly matured in such a place has been... er... lonely; until recently that is, but now I find myself on the other side of the debate.'''

'''Four months ago I was exploring just off the shores of {{Lore Link|Glenumbra}} looking for any sunken item that I could sell, when {{sic|i|I}} overheard the loud cries of a {{Lore Link|harpy}}; I came ashore to help. To my surprise I did not find some astray tourist under attack by a flock, but the reverse. A single harpy Matron -the ones with dark feathers and jewelry- was being robbed by three {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s not just of her finery, BUT OF HER EGGS! As a male Argonian this sent me into a rage. After driving off the trio, the Matron had rewarded me... quite affectionately. I have been visiting her each week and each time I leave she seems even sadder to see me go.'''

'''I have made up my mind to make this relationship permanent; while I know how others will see {{sic|it; i'll|it, I'll}} willingly take their insults, but my greatest concern is that the Goddess of Affection will see our love as blasphemous or tainted. Am I over-reacting or must I live in fear of the Divine?'''

'''Sincerely: Dives-For-Treasure"

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"The heart seeks what it desires, noble Baron and lusty Argonian, regardless of the chest it beats within. If your affection is pure and untainted by coercion, it is blessed in the eyes of Dibella. For has she not said, 'No matter the seed, if the shoot is nurtured with love, will not the flower be beautiful?'"''

'''"Hail Augustine Viliane,'''

'''I am Alaesir Morellian, a humble Breton Apprentice within the {{Lore Link|Camlorn}} Mages' Guild, and I beg for your aid. I am besotted by the beauty of two of my Masters<nowiki>:</nowiki> one an Altmer with the most noble bearing and countenance; the other a {{Lore Link|Dunmer}} whose red eyes and grey, ashen skin deeply intrigue me for their exotic beauty. I think on them every night hoping for inspiration from Dibella as to how to win their favour, but this has only resulted in complaints from the Guildhouse servants that I ought to wash my own bedclothes from now on...'''

'''How should I court the noble Estirdalin given that Altmer, generally, view {{Lore Link|Man|Men}} as inferior and are allegedly so concerned about purity of bloodline?'''

'''I have turned to my fellow Apprentices for advice but they have no more idea of how to court and win the affections of these Mer than they do about casting a competent healing spell. They tell me that High Elves must surely be "stuffy and pompous" within the bedchamber and that I ought to focus on Brelayne Hllervu given the reputation of Dark Elves. Is there any truth in that?'''

'''How should I go about winning her favour? She doesn't seem to like any other races very much, persisting in calling out "N'Wah" and "S'wit" at anyone who wanders past her study.'''

'''Kind regards, Alaesir Morellian."'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"A dilemma indeed! Regarding the High Elf, see my answer to Enchanter Dumonte above—perhaps you can intrigue your fair Altmer with something along those lines. As for the Dark Elf, I can confirm their reputation for an appetite for amorous dalliance from personal experience. If she wears her neck-scarf with the point on the left, toward her heart, this may be taken as a signal that she is open to approach. But if it points to the right, beware.''

''"More to the point, as it were, is where YOUR true feelings lie, young Alaesir. Consult your own heart on this matter—and don't be too shy to speak to our Camlorn Sibyl, Lady Siquine."''

'''"Hello Sibyl, I have a question for you:'''

'''After reading various {{Lore Link|Nord|nordic}} narratives from our libraries, it seems that the old Nords were practicing {{sic|the polygamy|polygamy}}, notably in the famous recital of the {{Lore Link|Five Hundred Companions}} during the {{Lore Link|Feast of the Dead}}, where the Companions are cited with their numerous husbands and/or wives.'''

'''But I fail to find any modern reference about it. I {{sic|wondering;|wonder:}} what's {{sic|happenned|happened}} to this practice? Is {{sic|the polygamy|polygamy}} still a thing among the Nords?" – Iszara the Restless, Singer of the {{Lore Link|Scenarist Guild}}'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"I'm afraid that you have fallen into a common misconception about the early Nords, one based on their use of the term 'War-Wives.' This phrase is used interchangeably with 'Shield-Sisters,' and refers to the Nords' women warriors, rather than to wedded wives. Though a War-Wife might be married to a Shield-Brother, or even to a non-warrior, such relationships were (mostly) monogamous."''

'''"Ah, dearest Sybil of our Blessed Lady. It's nice to converse with somebody local for a change, especially one so venerated as yourself. My question for you pertains less to courtship rituals and more towards the perception of the Lady herself in {{Lore Link|High Rock}}. Recently, I took a trip to Daggerfall to visit the various alchemy and enchanting shops in that fair city, and stopped by the Chapel of the Divines to listen to a sermon while I was there. I was shocked and dismayed to hear the priest tell his flock to "beware" the "charms of Dibella" or some such. He had spoken so highly of the other seven Divines, and I found it odd that the Lady of Love, Beauty, Art and Music would be vilified in such a fashion. Is she not one of the blessed Eight? Did {{Lore Link|Akatosh}} not choose the others to serve at His side? What should I tell people who imply that the Lady is somehow craven or unworthy of our praise? I feel particularly strongly about this, as it was the cult of Dibella which brought me into the faith of the Divines in the first place. I want people to understand how kind and benevolent she is. Will you help me to find the words, O Sybil?" – Legate Cyclenophus of the {{Lore Link|Bretonic Imperial Restoration Society}}'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"By Her Lips! You've been listening to the sermons of Father [[Online:Pitof|Pitof]] of the Daggerfall Cathedral, haven't you? The pious father is devoted to theology, but as I have reason to know, he is not passionate only about our duty to worship the Eight. But it doesn't do, after one night of worship to Dibella, to get all proprietary about one's ardor-partner. I fear I spoke more sternly than he liked, and may have sent him back to Daggerfall with a grudge against Our Lady and those who serve her. Hopefully, with time, he will find his way back to joy."''

'''"Faithful Sibyl, with the {{Lore Link|Kothringi}} people all but gone from this world, a great cultural gap has appeared in the depopulated mangroves of their native {{Lore Link|Argonia}}. As a direct link to Dibella, surely you must feel the goddess's pain from the loss of some of her most devout worshippers. We know that the Lady of Love was held in high regard by the Kothringi, but historians regretfully know very little of their courtship traditions. Can you speak on their behalf, that we might honour their memory?" – Legoless, Doyen of the {{Lore Link|United Explorers of Scholarly Pursuits}}'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"The Kothringi, though tragically extinct, have not been gone for long, and are well-remembered by their former neighbors. Many of the Lustrous Folk lived in the vicinity of {{Lore Link|Gideon}} in the region known as {{Lore Link|Murkmire}}. It is my understanding that, due to recent trade agreements, the road between Gideon and {{Lore Link|Leyawiin}} will soon be reopened, and traffic with the old Kothringi homelands will then resume. When that occurs, I will forward your interesting question to my Sister Sibyl in Gideon—though if your curiosity is so great, you might even choose to make the journey yourself."''

'''"Dear Augustine Viliane, Sybil of Dibella'''

'''I have a question of a rather {{sic|unnatural,perhaps|unnatural, perhaps}} to some even disgusting, nature. No, I'm not trying to court a {{Lore Link|Daedra}}. A certain young {{Lore Link|Bosmer}} girl caught my eye a couple of weeks ago, mainly because she managed to drink half of the Nords in the Horker's Tusk tavern under the table without passing out. I was instantly smitten, but she kept ignoring my advances. Then one day, as I left the inn I saw her take someone along in an alley. She had a strange air about her, so I followed them. Moments later I saw her, bent over a hapless victim, piercing red eyes and skin white as moonlight. {{Lore Link|Ysmir}}'s beard! I'd been trying to flirt with a {{Lore Link|vampire}}! And yet, even though I know what she is, it doesn't change my feelings for her. Would Dibella shun me for my abnormal affection, or does she believe in love for all, regardless of form? How should does someone court a vampire without getting killed?" – Jonnlur the Willful, Nord'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"Alas, Jonnlur, such a path is perilous, and if you choose to follow it, you are more likely to need the advice of a Priest of {{Lore Link|Arkay}} than of a Sibyl of Dibella. For Undeath is corruption, and one who willingly remains a vampire and feeds on others is impure of spirit. I have spoken to [[Online:Priest Colby Rangouze|Father Rangouze]], the leading Priest of Arkay here in Wayrest, and he says that the pull you feel toward this Wood Elf is not love, nor even joyous lust, but a darker urge that you must try to put behind you. Be not willful, but rather strong, and turn away, for you are in danger, both body and {{Lore Link|Souls|soul}}."''

'''My Lady Sybil,'''

'''I write to you, in hope of clarity on a matter of faith and, perhaps, guidance as I seek to find my partner in life.'''

'''I am blessed with two loving parents, thank Mara. I was raised by my mother in the traditional Altmeri way and on the whole my Nordic father accepted this. Unfortunately, this concord broke down whenever the subject of Dibella was raised. As you'll know, Dibella is missing from the Altmeri pantheon. Yet Father would insist Dibella's patronage was required when seeking love. I'm told he was a patron of the {{Lore Link|Dibellan Arts}} but the less spoken of this, the better.'''

'''When I asked Mother about this apparent courtship requirement, she would say, "{{Lore Link|Jephre}} is the god of natural beauty. He told the tale of Creation that all may know their role and form. He blessed the Altmer and the Summerset Isles with beauty unsurpassed. He taught the birds to sing and inspired even the stars with his songs. Dibella is a poorly understood song-echo of Jephre, misinterpreted by foolish Nords who care only for the pleasures of the body and nothing of the soul. Seek Jephre's blessing and you'll find your soulmate".'''

'''Meanwhile, father would say, "Jephre? {{Lore Link|Shor}}'s bones! A pale imitation of the full-figured Dibella, fit only for milk-drinkers! The prudish elves are so found of blathering about the loftiness of their gods because their heads are in the clouds. Seek Dibella's counsel to satisfy your urges."'''

'''My own suspicion is that both gods are aspects of the same deity. Whether one is an aspect of the other or a 'more accurate' {{Lore Link|Aedra|Aedric}} interpretation seems pure semantics. I say {{Lore Link|Auri-El}}, you say Akatosh. Of course, I take nothing for granted so I invoke both whenever pursuing any creative endeavour or partaking in any courtship ritual. Yet, despite this careful piety, I remain single!'''

'''Tell me, dear Sybil, am I going about this the right way? Or am I doomed to an eternity alone because I hedge my bets? Who can understand the will of the Aedra? What do they WANT from us? The panic is literally spewing from me! I can't take it anymore! Must… find… smelling salts…'''

'''Yours desperately,'''

'''Lady Aereda, Author of "Lamentations of {{Lore Link|Phynaster}}<nowiki>:</nowiki> A Study in the Grief Symbolism of {{Lore Link|Hawk}}s"'''

Sibyl Augustine Viliane says, ''"My Lady Aereda, you are an academic, and I fear you have fallen into the scholar's trap of thinking too hard about a matter where thinking is of little value. 'Careful piety' may have its uses (though I admit, none come to mind at the moment), but it is standing between you and finding your heart's desire. Seek beauty that gives you joy, and don't concern yourself with its theological origins."''
{{Book End}}

Lore:The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel/Hammerfell

2019-11-04T00:56:40Z

The Silencer: moved

{{Lore Book
|sumtitle=[[Lore:The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel|The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel]] Hammerfell Redguards of the Daggerfall Covenant
|linktitle=The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel: Hammerfell
|author=[[Lore:Flaccus Terentius|Flaccus Terentius]]
|up={{EGT||The Improved Emperor's Guide to Tamriel}}
|prev={{EGT|High Rock|High Rock}}
|next={{EGT|Bangkorai|Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains}}
|date=2E 581
|nobox=1
}}
:''Note: Flaccus Terentius' notes appear in bracketed italics. Inserts appear in separate boxes. Captions for unreleased images are denoted by †.''
----
[[File:ON-concept-08.jpg|center|frameless|600px]]

:The sea crossing of {{Lore Link|Iliac Bay}} gave me a chance to read up on {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}n history. Violence, hubris, and cunning seem to be recurring themes here.

[[File:ON-concept-Alikr.jpg|right|frameless|400px]]
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|-
| style="vertical-align: top;"|
:The arid wasteland west of {{Lore Link|Colovia}} and south of Iliac Bay was an abandoned realm. During the {{Lore Link|First Era}}, the {{Lore Link|Aldmer}} referred to this desolate places as "{{Lore Link|Hegathe}}" and the {{Lore Link|Nede|Nedic}} people called it "Deathland." Stifling, sandy winds clogged explorers' lungs, while baking rocks branded their feet. The only footprints to be discovered were made with the scaly hooves or claws of terrible monsters that stalked this land. So it is to the credit of the {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s that their banishment to these shores paid dividends, and their adept adaptation to this new homeland resulted in a powerful province and a new mandate. This is Deathland no longer: This is {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}.

:During the First Era, the city of {{Lore Link|Sentinel}} was a simple outpost, a show of force and protection against {{Lore Link|Orc}} marauders, {{Lore Link|Goblin}} raiders, roaming {{Lore Link|troll}}s, cattle-sized {{Lore Link|Giant Scorpion|scorpion}}s, and other more terrifying spirits that dared enter {{Lore Link|High Rock}}. But the Redguards were not the first to settle this desert; a {{Lore Link|Dwemer}} faction known as the {{Lore Link|Rourken}} disagreed with the {{Lore Link|Chimer}} and Dwemer alliances in {{Lore Link|Morrowind}} and moved into the Deathlands, trading with the southern Elves and northern {{Lore Link|Breton}}s alike. They sanctified their capital as {{Lore Link|Volenfell}}, or "City of the Hammer." Despite their attempts to distance themselves from the War of the First Council, they paid the price of all Dwemer, and the Rourken disappeared. Almost overnight, the Dwemer capital was among Deathland's empty cities. Only ghosts and creatures from the inland desert roamed the old alleyways and empty buildings, interrupted by the looting of {{Lore Link|Abecean Sea|Abecean}} and {{Lore Link|Nord}} pirates. To this day, Volenfell lies buried and silent under the {{Lore Link|Alik'r}}'s boiling sands.
|}

[[File:ON-concept-Redguard heavy armor.png|left|frameless|250px]]
[[File:ON-concept-Redguard medium armor.png|left|frameless|250px]]
:As I haven't been chased or abducted, and the only embarrassment I'm causing is the seasick vomiting of half-digested horse meat into the Iliac Bay, I'm claiming my first real contact with the Redguards as tantamount to a success. Aboard the Sentinel-bound ship, I'm immediately struck by how martial this culture is. From the captain to the rigging boy, all wear their weapons constantly. The marines who guard this vessel are even dressed in heavy armor!

:What if they fell overboard?

:Compared to the temperamental Bretons, the Redguard race seems positively dignified. Standing broad-shouldered and tall, with dark skin and wiry hair, they are seemingly born with a sword in their hand. I spoke with a few of them and found them formal, obsessed with personal honor, and quite aloof. While Breton culture had felt almost familiar to an {{Lore Link|Imperial}} like me, seeing the glinting domes of the city-port of Sentinel on the horizon gave me no such comfort. The Redguards were people from another continent, and it seemed they'd brought as much of Yokuda to Tamriel as they could manage.

:''[Redguard Marines Drilling]†''

{| border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="12" class="hiddentable" style="background-color:#EBE0C8;margin:20px 40px;padding:5px;"
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:Like a swarm of {{Lore Link|slaughterfish}}, the {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}} armada tore along {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}'s shores as the Yokudan invasion began. Furious fighters with nothing to lose - their own archipelago was lost to the western seas - they brought swift death to coastal colonies of unprepared Breton and rampageous Orc folk. No compromises were made. The province of Hammerfell and the {{Lore Link|Na-Totambu}} government of the Yokuda -- who became known as the Redguards -- thrived. Customary farming practices and religions flourished, even in the arid climate. These swift victories and the quick construction of Sentinel, with its numerous high-domed structures (resplendent with mosaic adumbrations) on the shore of the deep desert, startled Elf and Man alike. While the Bretons nursed their wounds and pride, the Redguards defied their hard desert surroundings. It took more than 100 years and the rise of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}} for the Bretons to suppress the Redguards' violent arrogance; this galvanized an uneasy truce and began economic relations.

:Time heals even the deepest wounds. The recent {{Lore Link|Daggerfall Covenant}} is holding, and although outer regions of Hammerfell remain distrusting, the city-states of Sentinel and {{Lore Link|Hallin's Stand}} are committed to fight with King {{Lore Link|Emeric}} of {{Lore Link|Cumberland}}. The social hierarchy of Sentinel (the {{Lore Link|Forebears}}) is well versed in diplomacy with High Rock. But standing shoulder to shoulder with the Orcs tests the Redguards' commitment and honor to the snapping point. So far, both factions have kept their word (although interracial tasks are undertaken with gritted teeth and stringent overseeing). Although the Redguards are fewest in number, the Covenant seems obliged to prosper from their influence, from the tactical expansionism of the Forebear king {{Lore Link|Fahara'jad}} to the calculated war-planning of his generals and maritime adeptness of this sailors.

:Fahara'jad may have more than simple alliances in mind. His daughter is married to King Emeric. He garnered support and played upon religious fervor after a starry comet skirted the northern heavens, and Fahara'jad believed it was a sign from {{Lore Link|HoonDing}}, the Yokudan Make Way God. A ruler with such guile must either be befriended or utterly crushed.
|}

:''[Redguard arms, all meticulously maintained]†''

:When the ship's guards aren't talking about the veneration of some chap called "Frandar" and his "Way of the Sword," they're practicing thrusts, cuts, and parrying with their swords. Or they're sharing advice on the care and polish of their swords: I sense a pattern emerging. While the Redguard soldier carries a variety of other killing implements -- which I sketched between bouts of seasickness -- a marine named Wisr-al-Maeen explained that a Redguard's sword is an extension of his soul and a symbol of honor. Their consorts have more care for their blades than a Nord does for his mead.

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:''[Superstitious nonsense. "Swords of light?" Please.]''

:The history of the sword-saint, or "{{Lore Link|Sword-singer|Ansei}}," tradition can be traced back to the time of Lord {{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}}, the first warrior prince. Previously, civil war had run rampant across Yokuda. Those married to the arts of poetry and learning were forced to join their uncouth brothers and sisters, and all were to learn the song of the blade. When the commoner {{Lore Link|Randic Torn}} tried to unify the Yokudan Empire, he decreed that only warriors -- known as sword-singers -- could carry such weapons.

:Frandar's ilk were artisans who valued beauty in the smithing of magnificent blades tempered with magic. But even more intense devotion to the gods of war allowed them to use their minds to conjure swords of insubstantial light. Those Ansei with otherworldly piety took this further, changing light into substantial, bone-cleaving reality. Disarming such an Ansei now required severing their head. Hunding's Shehai slew entities both wondrous and monstrous. After the defeat of Lord {{Lore Link|Janic}} and his seven {{Lore Link|lich}} guardians, Hunding retreated to the {{Lore Link|Hattu Mountains}}. Now invincible, he spent the next 30 years crafting his learnings into the {{Lore Link|The Book of Circles|Book of Circles}}. As Hunding readied for death, his hermitage was finally interrupted when his people called upon him.

:A new and final emperor was crowned: {{Lore Link|Hira}}. His thirst for power could be quenched only by wrenching control from the people and slaying all the sword-singers. And the Singers prevailed. Hira's empire was routed and scattered after seven terrible battles, but the commoners with little regard for the Way cared not about the reasons for their own salvation. So the Singers set sail across a vast ocean, vowing to honor their past but adopt a new name: Redguard. Now, every household in the province has an alcove above the hearth: a place where Hunding is honored and the Book of Circles is cherished.
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:Fahara'jad inherited a kingdom of uncertainty. His predecessor King {{Lore Link|Ramzi}} the Distrait was a self-serving and weak-willed ruler, failing utterly to protect his subjects as man and child succumbed to the {{Lore Link|Knahaten Flu}}. Ramzi regarded the plague as divine punishment from {{Lore Link|Ruptga}} for his personal failings. As the creeping death spread to his courtiers, Ramzi sealed himself within the palace and slowly starved to death, so great was his fear of contracting the virus. As the Flu turned the realm to chaos, Forebear noble Fahara'jad took command of Sentinel's throne.

:Hushed whispers spoke of a plot by the Forebears. Sentinel's citizens grew paranoid. The absence of a firm ruler proved almost cataclysmic for the once-prosperous settlement, until the brash young Fahara'jad completed his journey from {{Lore Link|Bergama}}, stepped into Sentinel, and declared himself king. The rulers of the southern provinces acted with vehement repudiation, but the Forebear viziers and northern chieftains ratified the action. Perhaps sensing an uprising from the south, Fahara'jad proved himself most cunning, allying himself with the Daggerfall Covenant to pronounce himself High King of all Hammerfell. Seething silence from the south boiled over into vexation at the sheer effrontery, but the foes of Fahara'jad found his claims too difficult to challenge.

:Many considered Fahara'jad to be a usurper, a false ruler waiting for comeuppance at the many hands of the god {{Lore Link|Satakal}} the Worldskin. But being thrice blessed (courtesy of his ties to the Forebears, his daughter's marriage to High King Emeric, and his power as part of the Daggerfall Covenant) had its privileges.
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[[File:ON-concept-Redguard tower.png|right|frameless|250px]]

:''[King Fahara'jad]†''

:I was half expecting King Fahara'jad to be carried in on a palanquin, but I left my prejudices at the mosaic-filled palace entrance doors. I was kept waiting in the audience chamber for over two hours, but after witnessing the king's personal involvement in governing his realm, I began to warm to him. He solved a dispute about drinking water that was contaminated by cattle dung by ordering the beasts slain or moved to pasture. He confiscated the harp from a musician who was accused of strumming before dawn. Then he signaled for me to approach.

:"Be welcome to Hammerfell and at our hearth, {{Lore Link|Flaccus Terentius}}." Fahara'jad returned my credentials. "You're a pathfinder? You need waterskins, perhaps? The Alik'r Desert is unforgiving. Tell you what, my friend: Hand any merchant this note, and take what you need."

:What a kind fellow! We continued to talk as equals, the king rightly focusing on my title as Envoy-Scholar, and he invited me to witness the following day's handfasting ceremony. His youngest daughter, Princess {{Lore Link|Lakana}}, was betrothed to High Rock's Duke {{Lore Link|Nathanial}} of {{Lore Link|Alcaire Castle}}. I duly accepted. It appears this wily ruler seeks to further strengthen his alliances.

:''[Typical Redguard Interior: Ornate but practical]†''

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:Instability is a watchword for Imperial operatives across Tamriel. Undermining the Empire's enemies can only lead to greater triumphs. So our field agents report with gratification that the Redguard social strata is so fractured, only the Daggerfall Covenant seems to be holding back a civil war in Hammerfell. The battle lines are drawn from east to west: To the north lie the coastal habitats, ruled over by a collection of nefarious seafaring merchants who tend to accept outsider influence: These are the Forebears. Roaming nomads, perhaps because of their trading traditions, are also more willing to act with foreigners. These groups are loyal to King Fahara'jad and the Daggerfall Covenant. Should the Empire act, it is recommended that it attempt diplomatic relations with this faction.

:To the south lie the filthy sand-ridden desert towns of the Hammerfell interior. The most recent immigrants from lost Yokuda have settled here and call themselves the Crowns. They abide by archaic Yokudan observances with a zeal that would impress a priest of {{Lore Link|Arkay}}. They are as stubborn as a case of {{Lore Link|Black-Heart Blight}}. They believe the Forebears to be tainted by "Tamrielic affectations" and are suspicious of the Daggerfall Covenant.

:For all their acrimony, both the Forebears and the Crowns do share an antipathy for magic, especially necromancy. The idea of raising Redguard ancestors as undead fills them with panic and revulsion. Imperial conjurers are most welcome to gather as many Summon Skeleton scrolls as they can muster, should a march on Hammerfell ever be ordered.
|}

:After the handfasting ceremony, an impressive display of conjured swordplay by an elder sword-adept, the serving of dried fruit, and the arrival of luxuriant pillows to lounge upon before the {{Lore Link|Thunder Herb}} was introduced, I did spy a few ruffled feathers. One of Fahara'jad's guests was a crown vizier from {{Lore Link|Rihad}}, who -- after a goblet or two of a potent pomegranate wine -- described the Daggerfall Covenant as "a pact of servitude, with our conniving king lying prostrate at the feet of his {{Lore Link|Wayrest}} inferiors." The fellow was quickly removed from proceedings, but it seems not everyone is keen on the king's new alliances.

:''[The Imposing Samuruik, the Palace of Sentinel]†''

:As the handfasting festivities drew to a close, I spotted a familiar face. An Imperial trader -- who I'd waved at during the ceremonies -- was approaching. He gestured to the business ledger he carried under his arm and pointed to a side door. He was probably here to deliver the waterskins. I followed him outside, where we could speak without eavesdroppers.

:He pointed to the sign of {{Lore Link|Akatosh}} under his cloak and whispered, "I am Knight Agent {{Lore Link|Maximian Memmius}}. Why did you miss your meeting in Daggerfall?"

:I stood before him, befuddled and sweltering under the midday sun. "Er, my waterskins?" I inquired.

:"To {{Lore Link|Coldharbour}} with your waterskins!" he snapped. "We've been tracking you since {{Lore Link|Deleyn's Mill}}. Did our meeting simply slip your mind?"

:"Listen, friend" -- I lowered my voice and pointed an accusatory finger -- "you're speaking to the Envoy-Scholar of the Empress Regent! I demand you pay me at least a modicum of respect!"

:He threw me up against the palace wall and held me by the throat. One of the {{Lore Link|Argonian}} gardeners looked up, then quickly back down to his planting. "No, you listen to me, you prancing nymph! My captain wants to know why you haven't filed an intelligence brief on High Rock. Having too merry a time in the taverns and palaces of the mighty?" He unhanded me, sensing my confusion. He stole my journal and then thumbed through it, scowling and pawing at the vellum. I demanded he take more care.

:"Ah, let the scorpions take you." With that, my Imperial "friend" threw the guide at me, turned tail, and bolted for the harbor. I'd have given chase, but I remembered the previous time I'd been led down a back alley. What was this man's mission? And more importantly, what was his problem? Intelligence briefs? I thought I was compiling a traveler's guide!

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:The Palace of Sentinel, or {{Lore Link|Samuruik}} as the citizens call it, is a looming presence within the capital of Hammerfell. The castle is sprawling but eminently defendable, and the parkland that surrounds it occupies much of the city's footprint. It is home to the royal family, their retainers and courtiers, and the many diplomatic envoys that travel between the major settlements within the Daggerfall Covenant. This citadel's central golden dome and ornate towers guard against outside invaders, but it is within the cool stone walls and hidden inner chambers that the most blood has been shed. Centuries of violent usurping have coated these mural- and tapestry-filled walls. The underclasses joke that there's a staff member whose everlasting occupation is rinsing blood out of the castle's many fine rugs. They quip, "I'd rather be a rug washer in Samuruik!" to describe thankless or never-ending tasks. The actual humor seems somewhat lost in translation.
|}

:''[Sentinel Fighters Guild]†''

:Being roughed up by a crazed cultist is grounds for annoyance, but being browbeaten by one of my own kind is tantamount to treason! I'll be sure to inform {{Lore Link|Abnur Tharn|Chancellor Tharn}} of his transgression. But for now, I won't let one rotting larva spoil my {{Lore Link|scrib}} pie, especially as there's so much to see, and paint, in the bustling streets of Sentinel. The architecture is breathtaking! I was expecting cracked and crumbling huts, but the {{Lore Link|Fighters Guild}} is majestic and it features cleverly-designed flumes for ventilation and insulation against the baking heat and cloudless nights. Masons of some considerable skill erected these monuments to an otherworldly kingdom. I hate to write this, but our architects could stand to learn the ways to move air around our homes: My bedroom in {{Lore Link|Bravil}} is a tad close to the guardhouse latrines for my liking.

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:The {{Lore Link|Forebears}}, with ties to the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}} and longevity among the indigenous peoples of Tamriel, worship a similar pantheon to the Imperials and Bretons. Their rivals, the {{Lore Link|Crowns}}, are more rigid in the reverence of ancient Yokudan deities.

===Eight Divines of the Forebears===
:{{Lore Link|Akatosh}}, the Dragon God of Time: The chief deity, and first of the pantheon to establish the Beginning Place. He is the embodiment of endurance, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy. The Crowns know him by the name {{Lore Link|Tall Papa}}.

:{{Lore Link|Tava}}, the Bird God: The Yokudan spirit of the air led her people to the isle of {{Lore Link|Herne}} after their homeland sank. She is an aspect of {{Lore Link|Kynareth}} and a popular deity in Hammerfell, worshiped by sailors in port city shrines.

:{{Lore Link|Julianos}}, God of Wisdom and Logic: Seen as an aspect of {{Lore Link|Jhunal}}, this is the god of literature, law, history, and contradiction. He is the patron of magistrates and the few wizards who exist in Hammerfell.

:{{Lore Link|Dibella}}, Goddess of Beauty: The goddess devoted to artists, aesthetics, and others in the shaping of erotic instruction. She is popular among Redguard women, as well as nearly a dozen disparate cults across the lands.

:{{Lore Link|Tu'whacca}}, Tricky God: An aspect of {{Lore Link|Arkay}} to some, the Yokudan god of souls found his purpose as the caretaker of the {{Lore Link|Far Shores}} after Tall Papa created the Walkabout. He aids Redguards seeking the afterlife.

:{{Lore Link|Zeht}}, God of Farms: An aspect of Zenithar and sometimes worshiped by Forebears using that name, the Yokudan god of agriculture renounced his father after the world was created; this is why Akatosh has dried the lands of Hammerfell.

:{{Lore Link|Morwha}}, Teat God: Analogous to Mara, this four-armed fertility goddess (her many limbs allow her to "grab more husbands") and the favorite of Tall Papa's wives is a fundamental deity. She has a strong following in {{Lore Link|Stros M'kai}}.

:{{Lore Link|Stendarr}}, God of Mercy: When Redguard "gallants" (their appropriated name for knights) pray for compassion, charity, justice, or righteous rule, it is Stendarr who hears them.

===Eight Gods of the Crowns===
:{{Lore Link|Tava}}, Tu'whacca, Zeht, and Morwha are all worshiped by Forebears and Crowns with few differences to their origin stories. But the Crowns have little devotion to the other Divines, preferring to pray to these heretical and distasteful idols:

:{{Lore Link|Satakal}}, the Worldskin: The God of Everything shares aspects of the Nord Alduin, devouring one world to begin the next. Satakal does this many times over, birthing spirits to survive each transition and form the Crowns' pantheon.

:{{Lore Link|Ruptga}}, Tall Papa: The chief deity and the first to learn to survive Satakal's hunger via the "Walkabout," a way to persist beyond a single lifetime. He set the stars to reveal his way. As the spirits grew, Ruptga created a helper named Sep.

:{{Lore Link|Onsi}}, War God and Boneshaver: The notable warrior god of the Yokudan Ra Gada, Onsi taught the fighting men and women to temper steel and grow their knives into swords that combined strength of metal and purpose.

:{{Lore Link|Diagna}}, Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade: On the cusp of being a cult-worshiped deity, Diagna was an avatar of HoonDing that achieved permanence. He brought {{Lore Link|orichalc}} weapons to the Yokudans when they fought the {{Lore Link|Lefthanded Elves}}. In ancient Tamriel, he is said to have lead a small band of followers against the {{Lore Link|Orc}}s of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}.
|}

[[File:ON-concept-Redguard Temple.png|right|thumb|600px|''[Temple of the Divines]'']]
:Divine service at the temple was just concluding as I finished my painting of the altar and structure. Many of the women were dressed in armor, but a few were clad in flowing dresses blowing lightly in the afternoon sea breeze. I tried my best to talk to one. "My, my, what an enchanting day. Does your skill with a blade match your beauty?" I inquired. The woman stopped, and our eyes met. "May you come safely to your journey's end, my perspiring friend," she replied, and walked off.

[[File:ON-concept-Temple interior.png|left|frameless|600px]]

:Down toward the harbor, where great shipping vessels were unloading their crates and cargo from Wayrest and beyond, I saw him: as bold as the whiskers on a Nord woman's face. The absconder from Daggerfall, that damnable cultist Uwafa, was here, in the streets of {{Lore Link|Sentinel}}! I felt my bile rise and cheeks flush as I stopped to watch and confirm his hated presence. This was no mirage. I instinctively grasped the pommel of my dagger. Uwafa was to pay for crossing my path twice.

:"Kidnapper!" Merchants and townspeople turned to look at me as I frantically jabbed my finger in the direction of the fleeing black cloak and set off at a sprint I usually reserved for outrunning trolls. Uwafa had already seen me and was dashing away quite quickly, weaving between market stalls with the grace of a sabre cat. He bolted down a narrow alleyway, and I ran for him, cursing his odious name under my labored breath.

:"Thief!" I yelled for good measure. Flagstones turned to effluent channels beneath my feet as I scrambled to find my quarry while keeping dry. I emerged into a small courtyard, surrounded by solid walls and high window slits. There was no sign of Uwafa anywhere. This was an unfamiliar area of Sentinel, away from the bustling temples and visitors. I felt uneasy now, standing in this secluded gap away from the life of the city.

:I felt a sharp pain on the back of my head and fell forward, into darkness.

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:For the Redguards, the curious practice of mummification takes place after the spirit departs to search for Tu'whacca. The body is laid on a table and washed in oils and leaves. Before the head and torso are carefully cut open, the body is drained of blood, and the brain, heart, and other organs are placed into ceremonial jars. A week of chanting prayers, mourning, and swathing the corpse with long ceremonial bandages finalizes this deeply religious rite. The body is then interested in a painted sarcophagus within a subterranean tomb, along with the deceased's favorite weapons, servants, and pets.

:''[Revolting practice - no wonder the Dead walk.]''
|}

:''[Redguard Necropolis]†''

:I looked around but could see nothing. I tried to shout but could not speak. I struggled in my bonds but could not free myself. I was feeling pain and tasting the blood trickling down from my head. My body felt cool against the stone slab to which I was bound. I gazed around, my eyes finally focusing. Two black roses were on either side of my body. Ritual torches were lit. Odd shapes flickered at me from behind the lights. Uwafa stepped forward.

:"This was meant to take place in a cave outside Daggerfall," Uwafa said, mostly to himself. I responded with a muffled grunt. "Ah, you're awake at last? Good. The branding sears with more vigor if the victim is struggling." I retaliated with a muffled curse. "Calm down, Flaccus Terentius," Uwafa replied. "Your time for petulance has passed."

[[File:ON-concept-Skeleton.png|left|thumb|190px|''[Undead horrors raised by the Worm Cult]'']]
:Something stirred behind Uwafa. A flapping corpse -- with linen bindings so tight they looked to be a second skin -- had climbed down from its crypt alcove and stood watching without eyes to see. Uwafa nodded to his minion before addressing me: "Didn't you hear? Necromancy is legal in the Empire..." Uwafa's voice trailed off, as if he were listening to a voice that wasn't there. In a flash, I had a vision: a great and hated necromancer named Mannimarco.

:Uwafa ripped open my undertunic and produced a branding poker. It glowed with a blue light. "First, you shall wear the Mark of the Worm," he said softly, stroking my hair. "An appetizer before the blood sacrifice." He plunged the brand into my chest. My skin froze and cracked as I writhed on the altar, marked forever with the sign of the {{Lore Link|Order of the Black Worm|Black Worm}}.

:My sacrifice was to be witnessed by dead eyes: Rotting corpses, clad only in fetid bandages, rose from their sarcophagi at the command of the Worm cultist.

:There was to be no escape this time. Long-dead skeletal warriors wearing ancient Yokudan arms and armor joined the throng. The chanting and bone-clattering drew to a shrieking zenith...

:''[The Ash'abah]†''

:Blood filled my eyes. I half saw the cultist's dagger rise, then fall from his grasp. I watched Uwafa's face contort in anguish. An arrow protruded from the wrist he was clutching. And then he was gone. I heard shouting and saw bandaged shapes thrash and moan, stumbling and burning. Light streamed into the crypt. Swords thumped against dusty shields and sliced through rattling bones. Redguard swords cut through my bonds. I was helped from the altar. I was struck on the arm by a skull, the teeth still chattering. It fell to the floor near its decapitated body.

:A whirl of blades and fire magic tore through the undead. Mummies flew apart like training dummies. Swords were striking skeletal foes faster than my eyes could follow. The daylight blinded me as I staggered from the Redguard cemetery and into Ancestors' Landing. Herbs were administered to my wounds, and my belongings were gathered. I'd never seen a display of fighting as masterful as my rescue by the Ash'abah.

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:The {{Lore Link|Alik'r}} Desert is truly inhospitable, from the frequent sandstorms to the boiling heat. If the confounding landscapes don't drain your hope and energy, encounters with dunerippers or scorpions most certainly will. On this forsaken terrain roams an ancient and secretive tribe: the {{Lore Link|Ash'abah}}. Cast out from normal Redguard society, they are led by the formidable and battle-scarred warrior {{Lore Link|Marimah}}. These pariahs answer to no regional ruler, and shift their whereabouts like the sand itself. It is said the Ash'abah are finishing the work first set out by the three great Ansei who formed the {{Lore Link|Ansei Wards}}. As with these ancient heroes, the Ash'abah cast aside their own devotions to serve the lives of the Redguard people. For when the dead, whether blighted or honored, rise to strike at the Redguards, the Ash'abah strike back when their brethren cannot.

:''[Thought this was exaggerated when I first read it, but it's all true. Of course, it'll read better after I revise it.]''
|}

[[File:ON-concept-Alikr Load screen 01.png|center|thumb|600px|''[Grand vista of the Alik'r Desert]'']]

:My brand still burned. I thanked my rescuers profusely and hoped they might put up with my misery, as returning to Sentinel without a personal guard was now unthinkable. They accepted my plea and offered me water, and we set off into the deep desert. But as the hours passed and the sun beat down mercilessly, I was beginning to rethink my plan of wandering with dangerous exiles from Redguard culture. Would they abandon me the instant I waned? My skin itched in the insufferable heat, my boots had become unwanted sand vessels, and I began to dawdle.

:I called out for water as the sand started to ripple and sway. This was no desert malaise. I emitted a shriek as the ground began to seethe heavily, and a white fin pierced the dune. Suddenly, I stared into a huge black throat. I remember stumbling to the side, just as an Ash'abah spear was thrust into the maw. The giant armor-plated snake, which I was informed later was a "{{Lore Link|duneripper}}," let out a bellow and was swarmed upon from all sides. Swords cut up and under the ripper's armor plates, and it let out a deflated whine as it expired. We set up a makeshift camp, and I painted the corpse, which was already stinking. I made sure to stay well protected and deep within the Ash'abah throng from this point on.

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===Denizens of the Alik'r Desert, Compiled by [[Lore:Books by Author#Brother Fabricius|Brother Fabricius]]===
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:Just as {{Lore Link|Argonian}} hunters scouting the waters of {{Lore Link|Black Marsh}} speak of a monstrous {{Lore Link|sea-drake}} -- a giant fish with a reptilian snout and tough, scaly hide -- there are similar tales from the migrant trappers of the Alik'r Desert. The duneripper shares many aspects of that aquatic monster but has adapted to live within the roasting sands of the western Alik'r. Ambush hunters like the {{Lore Link|duneripper}} are well suited to this arid, unforgiving landscape. This beast is immensely proportioned -- it can reach the length of three horses -- and its armored tail is covered in chitinous scales. Unlike the sea-drake, the duneripper has learned the primal art of patience. With a digestion system that requires only a modicum of food to sustain the large beast, the duneripper burrows beneath the sand, sometimes lying motionless for days, waiting to strike its victim.

:The first sign of a duneripper is the dorsal crest piercing the sand just before an attack, as the nearby sand churns like a whirlpool. The quarry is unaware until the very last moment that a sharp-toothed, salivating mouth is closing on it. Should a bite not incapacitate its prey, the duneripper will try to clamp down on it, roll onto it, constrict it, or burrow back into the sand to suffocate it.

:The duneripper will also sweep its tail around to upend its prey, and it exhibits shorts bursts of impressive speed. Beware the shifting sands, for they may be a prelude to a swift and bloody death.

:''[Fabricius is a blowhard, but this is largely true.]''
|}

[[File:ON-concept-Duneripper.png|center|thumb|600px|''[A Duneripper, displayed full length. Despite its stubby legs, this beast is shockingly quick.]'']]

:Farther into the indescribable heat we go. I kept to the middle of the procession, and with good reason. From over a dune, I spotted an immense scuttling creature race down to the desert floor. An old man of the Ash'abah who was wandering away from the group parried valiantly but was seized by the fiend's giant claws before a horrible skewering took place. The Ash'abah huntsmen immediately tracked the colossal scorpion and surrounded it with shields aloft, and one brave soul leaped for the tail, incapacitating the beast before they set upon it with a flurry of blades. I sketched the fight for posterity. The old man may have died of his wounds, but we ate a palatable stew of scorpion meat that night.

[[File:ON-concept-Giant scorpion.png|left|thumb|600px|''[The Giant Scorpion of the Deep Desert]'']]
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:There have been tales of these giant, crablike beasts before the Redguards first explored the vast dunes of the Alik'r Desert. With only the duneripper to fear, the giant scorpion has been left alone to grow to enormous proportions. Its girth is comparable to a large bull, and it has two horrific front pincers, six smaller legs that end in sharp claws, and an immense and segmented prehensile tail, which would be a marvel to watch were it not the most feared natural weapon in Hammerfell. After one these monstrosities spots its prey, it moves with great speed across the sand, leaving only the shallowest of imprints.

:It usually attacks with its claws, catching its meal before the tail lashes out, usually killing the poor victim quickly but unpleasantly: If the barbed stinger doesn't slay the victim outright, the deadly venom pumped into the open wound immobilizes it. The corpse or paralyzed victim is then slowly eaten and digested externally. To prevent this most heinous of deaths, it is recommended that you attack from behind, concentrating on incapacitating the tail, as the hardened carapace is extremely difficult to breach. Native shamans of the Ash'abah prize {{Lore Link|Giant Scorpion|giant scorpion}} stingers, but they prefer to harvest these themselves, rather than pay for ones slain by others.

:''["Prehensile tail"? "Digested externally"? Fabricius is an idiot.]''
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:''[Impressions of Lamiae]†''

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:''[Oh, Fabricius. If they lay eggs, why do they have breasts? Fool.]''

:Excitable children are subdued by talk of a {{Lore Link|Lamia}} visiting them in the night. Many variations of the tale exists where a charmed traveler surrenders to a terrible and painful death at the talons and bite of a Lamia. This beast is a well-known underwater menace to the fishermen of Daggerfall. Recent Imperial research, and evidence from local viziers in the Alik'r Desert region of Hammerfell, has discovered aggressive and untamed desert kin with a similar skeletal structure and vicious attack patterns.

:The Lamia is an amalgam of snake and woman, although it is assumed they are hermaphroditic and lay eggs like a reptile (which are then abandoned and the immature Lamiae are left to fend for themselves). The less enlightened see this creature as a cursed people, but there is no evidence for this. Lamiae stand as tall as a full-grown {{Lore Link|Breton}} male when fully reared up, and they use their long tails to steady themselves while on land. Their sharp poison fangs, ophidian heads, and scaled tails have led to an aversion of this chimera cross Tamriel.

:They have a lust for gold, jewels, and trinkets, and are known to loot and wear such treasure from the corpses of those they've slain. They understand language but have a rasping hiss rather than anything intelligible. However, they have developed an eerie, almost mesmerizing song that can entrance and entrap the credulous. They lack the intelligence to craft or make art, they never venture far from their lair, and they live independently unless they need to congregate for safety or are under the command of a more powerful Lamia or other entity. Their mastery of electrical magic is innate, not learned. But their appetite is voracious; they devour the flesh, meat, and bone of any living creature.

:<s>Beware the song of the Lamia. It may be the last lullaby you ever hear.</s> ''[Awful. That last line has got to go.]''
|}

:Not wishing to use the rudimentary latrines in the makeshift Ash'abah camp, which would require me to squat over a recently dug hole in the ground, I ventured into a nearby cave to relieve myself and apply some powder to my desert chafing. I found a suitable spot, finished my business, and felt the cool air on my cheeks. Buttoning up, I spotted the glow of torchlight deeper into the cave. Strange shadows darted about. Then I hear a wistful song. A lament in a language unknown to my ears. It was enchanting I edged forward, drawn like an {{Lore Link|Ancestor Moth|ancestor moth}} to a {{Lore Link|Canticle Tree|Canticle tree}}.

:I was forcefully halted by an Ash'abah named Barahar. She knew of the dangers of the Lamia and manhandled me away from that beautiful wail. Inserting {{Lore Link|Dreugh Wax|dreugh wax}} into our ears, we returned to the cave, moving to an opening above the grotto below. Here, we watched, and I sketched, a Lamia on the prowl. I also drew speculative art of Lamiae that may lurk in jungles and swamps. I returned to the camp. Barahar emerged from the cave a while later, carrying the Lamia's skin over her shoulder and a vial of milked venom.

[[File:ON-concept-Spectre.png|left|thumb|600px|''[A terrible revenant: the Wraith. Note to self: not scary enough - repaint]'']]
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:The dread mausoleums in the wastes near {{Lore Link|Bergama}} hold more than their fair share of the dead. Grave robbers tell of a terrible spectre, a hooded shape of fear, tattered and floating in the cool, stale air. Unlike a ghost, this wraith is a spirit without memory, raised from the dead or summoned by necromancy. They float, silent and thoughtless. But once you cross the threshold they are guarding, the magic that binds them quickens them into inflicting a savage, uncompromising attack.
|}

:In the silent dusk, we halted at the mausoleum on the outskirts of Bergama. The Ash'abah sat cross-legged, chanting in a circle while a warrior was washed with oils. "This is a purification ritual," Barahar whispered to me, "before our sword-adept banishes the angry ancestor-spirit." I began to understand: This was the Ash'abah's societal function -- dispatching the undead, as the majority of Redguards found it blasphemous to slay their own departed kin.

:"Blade's edge!" The warrior took a long spear and walked into the mausoleum. A vast shape of cloaked air coalesced into a hooded form of skull and claw that tapered into nothing. Suddenly it let out an earsplitting howl, and frost magic danced toward the Redguards. The warrior adeptly evaded and spoke incomprehensible incantations. His spear glowed and he thrust it through the wraith's face.

:An abrupt windstorm followed this departing phantom, but there would soon be a great deal more work for the Ash'abah.

[[File:ON-concept-Desert water catcher.png|left|thumb|350px|''[Redguard Rain-Catcher]'']]
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===A Nightmare Land, By [[Lore:Books by Author#Knight Gallant Titianus Iulus|Knight Gallant Titianus Iulus]], Watcher of {{Lore Link|Ska'vyn}}===
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:Flat salt pans devoid of nourishment. Drifting wastes of sand. Sharp-clawed creatures and skeletal carcasses. Terrible horrors lurking above and below the sand. Sudden dust storms that choke and confuse. Water poisoned by the leaching salt. Knee-deep sand to slog through or impassable cliffs from which to plummet. Gorges that take days to circumvent. The deep desert of Alik'r is a nightmare land. It is this researcher's opinion that very few Redguards could survive for more than a few days out here. Surely people could live only in the coastal regions of Hammerfell, as the occupation of its interior has occurred through bluff, bluster, and the lack of any other race wanting this cursed and shriveled shell, a carbuncle on Tamriel's backside.

:''[Titianus Iulus should be watching more than the community of Ska'vyn; his opinion is wildly inaccurate.]''
|}

:How the Imperial scouts failed to find the thriving Redguard settlements within the desert interior boggles the mind. We've passed a surprising number of Redguards living in rudimentary villages. Naturally, the Ash'abah haven't been made welcome, but I did spent time sketching scenes from the primitive ways of life here, such as the inverted tentlike rain-catchers and the buried aqueducts for water collection. I sampled some cultivated succulents and passed a few goat herders. This place is teeming with life if you know where to look.

[[File:ON-concept-Bangkorai Load screen.png|center|frameless|600px]]

:''[Ancient Elven ruins are occasionally found away from the coast. The Redguards plunder these for the deposits of Malachite ore.]†''

:''[I watched a miner crack open a geode node, exposed by the drifting sands. These are harvested for the gems and crystals inside.]†''

:At last I've had my fill of terrifying desert creatures, and I've been assured that the only jeopardy I'll face in the settlement of Bergama is the plundering of my coin purse. Apparently, the bartering of the market traders borders on extortion. In an almost comical display of social animosity, the Ash'abah have camped outside the town's walls behind a dune. This is so the residents of Bergama can pretend they aren't there. Ludicrous! Fortunately, I'm not seen as a pariah, so I've agreed to roam the town and purchase some supplies.

:''[Buildings of Bergama, a Town of the Crown Redguards]†''

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:The stately architecture of the Hammerfell interior varies from simple nomadic tents to the splendor of the sturdy domed structures within the city of Bergama. It is the latter we shall focus on in this chapter. Ask any Redguard worth his salt about the dwellings he retires to after a day's toil, and he'll proudly boast about their rigidity, flexibility, heat transference, and general ornate beauty. He's mostly right too; these foreigners have brought to Tamriel many interesting Yokudan advancements in construction that we should seek to imitate and perfect.

:Speak to the Imperial stonemason who has rebuilt naves, walls, and crenelations after a raid on a Cyrodilic building, and he'll lament the difficulty in repairing such heavy and ornate stone. While much Imperial construction requires demolition and rebuilding after conflict, many of the Yokudan accent pieces, such as the flying staircases or ornamental domes, are designed to crumble after an attack or an earthquake; this allows them to be easily replaced in sections afterward. However, these structures are solid; they stand tall and firm despite the sweltering heat. But it doesn't take an architect to realize these structures reflect the original home of the Redguards.

:''["Designed to crumble", eh? I don't believe a word of it.]''
|}

[[File:ON-concept-Redguard smithy.png|right|frameless|350px]]
:The many outer fortifications to this settlement are a sight to behold. The wall the defends Bergama is both ornate and substantial, with numerous foreign flourishes I've never witnessed before. While a Nord stable might be little more than a sturdy wooden barn, the Redguard stables are positively opulent but practical. The pavilion tent roofs can be retracted during a sandstorm and draped again to protect animals from the sun. All without compromising ventilation. Ingenious!

:Before the bartering begins, my first priority is to locate an inn. The Ash'abah may abhor liquids more potent than tea, but I have no such qualms. In fact, I demand a sturdy cockle-warming after the frights of the last few days. I soon spotted an appropriate venue and chose an upper balcony. As I gazed through the slits in the tent roof at the night sky and the familiar glow of Masser and Secunda, I was brought an ewer of pomegranate wine. Sweet Mara, this is a sensational treat! In fact, I shall order another.

[[File:ON-concept-Market.jpg|center|thumb|600px|''[Bergama's Bustling Open-Air Market]'']]

:After my wine, I placed a talisman to improve bartering around my neck and strode confidently into Bergama Market, still bustling after dark. Amid the bleats of goats, the shouts of robed outcriers, and the smell of meats and incense, I stopped first at a small blacksmith's stall to purchase additional weapons. Try as I might, I couldn't secure a bargain. I fared little better at the herbalist; the dried herbs, other roots, and reagent powder I gathered were twice the price compared to Wayrest! Even a deal on waterskins eluded me.

:I didn't mind; not all my stipend was spent. So I wandered farther and enjoyed a furious barter session for a set of genuine Lamia-skin Tu'whacca prayer wheels (these aren't some Argonian imitations, I was told). I also had to have a set of magic duneripper spine dowsing sticks. The trader made me a "water-tight guarantee!" Oh, how we laughed at his joke. Then I noticed a lady selling large skins of pomegranate wine. Still jovial from my last supping, I became eager for this, the most delicious of beverages. I may, perhaps, have overpaid.

:Oh, what an impetuous fool I am. I corked the wine the moment I realized I'd actually been wearing an amulet that aided in seawalking. This had improved my posture but weakened my bartering considerably. That, and my tipsiness, meant I'd been nefariously plucked of all my coin by the time I stumbled into some genuine cultured treasures. All I could do was sit and sketch, passing up the intricately knotted goat-hair rugs, inlaid and gilded urns and lanterns, and the exquisite furniture. I regretted frittering away all the Ash'abah's funds too. Then one of the dowsing sticks punctured my wineskin, staining a costly bolt of silk. I quietly made my exit before the silk merchant noticed the damage.

:''[Exquisite Redguard Wares Offered by Bergama's Merchants]†''

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===[[Lore:Reverence for the Dead|Reverence of the Dead: Tu'whacca and Burial Rites in Contemporary Redguard Culture]] by [[Lore:Books by Author#Brother Opilio Congonius|Brother Opilio Congonius]]===
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:The Redguards revere their departed ancestors so fervidly that it rivals the devotion many other races have for their gods. While a Breton may place a casket in ornately arched consecrated ground, or a Nord may place a wind-dried body on a shelf in a burial vault, the Redguards design and erect vast funerary structures for their dead that are as awe-inspiring as they are extensive. The thread of honor that binds the Redguards from before birth to beyond death is strong. These soaring and massive mausoleums are the purest representations of the undiluted Yokudan architecture, built to propel spirits to a meeting with their putative gods.

:Perhaps the finest example of this type of burial site is {{Lore Link|Tu'whacca's Throne}}, set atop a vast plateau in the Alik'r Desert of Hammerfell. This huge temple is dedicated to the Tricky God, the Shepherd of Souls, and the Caretaker of the Far Shores. After ascending from the desert grazing fields, up the stone stairs carved into the plateau's side, one is first struck by the incredible views from atop this flat expanse of rock and sand. After passing the {{Lore Link|Throne Keepers}}, who are ever vigilant and maintain Tu'whacca's Throne, the eyes meet the true majesty of this sacred place.

:This necropolis is both a sprawling burial ground and a sacred ruin. Aside from Tu'whacca's presence watching from dark corners of this sanctuary, the temple also serves as a monument to the untold number of Yokudans who perished when the continent sank beneath the waves. Pilgrims travel across the stinging sands to pay their respects to these victims and to the historical Redguard kings who are also interred in this labyrinthine necropolis.
|}

:''[The Great Mortuary Shrine of Tu'whacca's Throne]†''

:I explained away my drunken bartering to the Ash'abah, telling them the recent turmoil in Tamriel caused prices to soar, and we set off at dawn to make for Tu'whacca's Throne. Barahar informed me the tribe was duty-bound to visit there to perform the annual Rite of Royal Rest, which seals the Redguard kings and queens into their tombs and keeps them happy in the afterlife so they aren't tempted to return and rule from beyond death. At least, that was the theory.

:Tu'whacca's Throne is more than a simple sepulcher; it is a terrifyingly vast monument to the dead. No wonder the ritual is important-there are enough buried dead to summon a city's population of undead! As the Throne Keepers retired from the ruins for the 36 hours the rite took, I was stopped at the entrance, a sack was placed over my head, and I was left to meditate in a goat pen. Apparently such rituals are not for the eyes of an outsider. Despite the smell of dung, I was content to wait. I'd been having flashes of memories from the last time I was in a mausoleum, and my chest brand itched in unison.

:A couple of hours into my introspection, after pondering on the superstitions of these provincials, I broke open the pomegranate wine. This, it turned out, was a mistake.

[[File:ON-concept-Yokudan Ruins.png|left|thumb|200px|''[Yokudan Funerary Structures]'']]

:''[Note the figure for scale. The Redguards build big!]†''

:I must admit the wine made me emboldened enough to remove my blindfold. Blinking at the necropolis entrance, I noticed the area was empty, so I stepped through and began sketching the columns and crenelations. After filling my page with fine art, I took a stroll and found myself gazing up at a mausoleum. It was guarded by the statues of two kings with their arms raised in warning. But the doorway was slightly open. Inquisitiveness won the day, and I crept over the threshold. I was immediately met by a void of blackness.

:I tiptoed forward, my nostrils twitching in the stagnant air. Then I stopped, feeling a sudden chill through my bones. A great, cold hand fell onto my shoulder and began to squeeze. I let out a silent shout of terror, rummaged through my satchel, grabbed my genuine Tu'whacca prayer wheel, and walloped this unseen assailant. Fleeing in abject terror, I made for the slit of daylight, past the two kings, and back to the goat pen. A swift look over my shoulder magnified my fears. Something had followed me out. Something wreathed in darkness. An indistinct figure that refused to be seen properly.

:I had made an error in judgment.

:The Ash'abah raced from the temple, their trackers following the rage of dark chaos that had stalked off at some speed and seemed intent on heading toward the nearby settlement of {{Lore Link|Leki's Blade}}. Chief Marimah turned to me. "You are a walking disaster, aren't you? Have you been sent here to test us?" I started an apology but trailed off as a blade was pointed my way. "You have roused the spirit of {{Lore Link|Ra Boshek}}, the evil usurper-king. Killing you would only add to my anger. Follow me." Sheogorath was smiling on us today.

:The only comfort in this maelstrom of fury and confusion was that the liberated mummy was using an ancient trader's trail, and the Ash'abah knew a shorter path to the township. After a lung-bursting march over dunes, with the blowing wind the only sound over faint muttering (I heard my name associated with some very improper guttural language), we spotted the sword statue for which the settlement was named. The Ash'abah were already herding the local Redguards into a defensible hilltop tower.

:Marimah was being prepared by his priests for combat with the revenant. Barahar pushed past the huddled villagers and fired barbed words at me: "This ritual requires the sacrifice of four white sheep." She held out her hand for payment. I offered her one of my genuine prayer wheels and she spat on the ground at my feet. I gave her a gold ring and waited for the skirmish to commence. My guilt was immeasurable.

:''[Village and Monument of Leki's Blade]†''

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:The desert outpost of Leki's Blade was built in the {{Lore Link|First Era}} around the shrine of the same name. Hewn from local materials, the huge statue of the gripped sword still serves as a navigational point, an idol and marker for the Redguards to witness on the pilgrimage to this place. Local scholars may argue over certain details, but it is certain that {{Lore Link|Leki's Shrine}} was established by the last of the {{Lore Link|Ansei}} as a training temple, where their sword knowledge could be passed down to later generations. Today, Redguards travel from the four corners of Hammerfell to study under the broken blade.

:From the young child who learns focus with a blade, to the adult warrior who seeks further prowess and meditation, to the master who yearns for final instructions, all seek tutelage here. Local myth claims that the spirits of the departed Ansei watch over the hearts and desires of those training in this temple. The Ansei, known as sword-singers, recruited members to their order at age 11, and males became known as "Brothers of the Blade" while females earned the title "Maidens of the Spirit Sword." The most famous Ansei is {{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}} (whose life and tribulations can be found in Appendix 13).
|}

:''[Decorative Redguard Tiles]†''

:Marimah triumphed over the revenant. Priests rushed to assess his wounds. He waved them off and stepped over the steaming husks of linen, still twitching and strewn across the sand. I honestly though I was joining Ra Boshek in a cursed afterlife, but Marimah beckoned me over to Leki's Shrine and rinsed his sweating face. Wiping his brow, he calmly remarked, "You have had unsanctified contact with Ra Boshek. You are unfit to consort further with us." Moments later, the Ash'abah gathered the remains of the revenant and disappeared from Leki's Blade.

:I halfheartedly drew some ceremonial plaques and the shrine's altar before sheepishly hiring a guide to take me to the coast and from there a ferry to Evermore. "A pariah from the pariah tribe! An exile from the exiles!" I half smiled at Jad, the coachman, and requested no further conversation from his mouth.

:Later, my brand turned hot as I shrieked myself awake from a nightmare. I saw a vision of worms, writhing from the eye sockets in a corpse's head. They chewed through the mouth as the corpse shook violently and burst apart, and {{Lore Link|Mannimarco}} himself stepped into view. He thrust his arm through my brand, into my chest, and squeezed. I writhed in agony.

:After a short bout of weeping, I found myself at the port and pulled myself together. I invested in one last skin of pomegranate wine, boarded the ferry gangplank, and vowed never to return here.
{{Book Footer}}

Lore:Beware the Glenumbra Banks

2019-11-04T00:56:21Z

The Silencer: moved

{{Lore Book
|ON=1
|author=[[Lore:Books by Author#Garric the Pilot|Garric the Pilot]]
|description=A discussion of the banks surrounding Glenumbra
}}
What's that? You want to know about the {{Lore Link|Glenumbra Banks}}? I thought everyone knew about those shifting sand bars off the northwest coast of {{Lore Link|High Rock}}, the narrow islets that make seafaring there so dangerous close to shore. I myself have made a living for almost thirty years as a {{Lore Link|Daggerfall}} pilot, guiding merchant ships through the Banks in and out of the city's {{Lore Link|Daggerfall Docks|North Docks}}. And I'm well paid for the job, but the merchants don't complain—they see the rotting spars and twisted planks of the shipwrecks we pass as we wend our way through the channels.

Those channels are treacherous and ever-changing. When we go out in early {{Lore Link|Sun's Dawn}} to meet the first ship coming in to port after the winter storms, there are always numerous visible changes to the waterways—as well as invisible changes to their depths, which we must take care to map out by frequent use of the plumb-line.

But the fact is we must be ever on the lookout for changes in the Banks even in {{Lore Link|Calendar#Mid_Year|Mid Year}} and {{Lore Link|Calendar#Sun's_Height|Sun's Height}}. Now, how is it that the sands shift the way they do, sometimes changing overnight even when there has been no storm? The {{Lore Link|Herne}} Current runs far offshore, and in summer the breeze the mariners call the {{Lore Link|Yokudan}} Zephyr blows steadily but gently from the west.

And yet, the sands shift, and the Banks change.

Well, stranger, I'll tell you the secret, so long as you're buying the drinks tonight in {{Lore Link|the Rosy Lion}}. It's {{Lore Link|Ithguleoir}}. Yes, you heard me right—the immortal leviathan of the {{Lore Link|Eltheric Ocean}} is no mere fable. Ithguleoir lives, and haunts the far depths of the sea … and sometimes the near shallows of the shore. He fills old channels in the Banks and dredges new ones. And when a ship runs aground on the sands, he rises from the waters and dines on its sailors, one by one.

I suppose you're entitled to look skeptical about that—so long as you buy another round, that is. But listen, I'm not just spinning an old salt's yarn. I've seen the thing. On nights when the moons are full and the sea is calm, you can sometimes glimpse the leviathan's oily back heaving above the surface as the old monstrosity digs his devious traps. Occasionally there's a geyser of sea-mist, like when a whale blows, but then the breeze wafts ashore a demonic stench that smells like it's blown from {{Lore Link|Oblivion}}.

So there: now you know. But let's just keep this between you, me, and the tavernkeeper's cat, shall we? The south harbor's too shallow for the big merchantmen, and Daggerfall depends on her sea-trade continuing to find its way in to the North Docks. As do I. And sailors are such a superstitious lot—no point in scaring them away. Eh?
{{Book End}}

Lore:Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition/Hammerfell

2019-11-04T00:55:00Z

The Silencer: moved

{{Lore Book
|sortkey=Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Hammerfell
|sumtitle=Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Hammerfell
|linktitle=Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition: Hammerfell
|authprefix=by the
|author=[[Lore:Imperial Geographical Society|Imperial Geographical Society]]
|up={{PGE|1}}
|prev={{PGE|1|High Rock|High Rock}}
|next={{PGE|1|Aldmeri Dominion|Aldmeri Dominion}}
|date=2E 864
|noheader=1
}}
{| style="margin:0.5em auto; font-size:35px; letter-spacing:5px;"
| HAMMERFELL
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{{Lore Link|Hammerfell}} is the eternal outsider of the human lands, either regarded by the {{Lore Link|Imperial}} citizen as {{Lore Link|Tamriel}}'s dark and exotic west or its most tempestuous and dangerous quarter, full of barbarians and cutthroats. Both descriptions are apt, and can be equally attributed to its people, the proud and savage {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s.

Some three thousand years ago the continent of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}} suffered a cataclysm that sunk most of it into the sea, driving its people towards Tamriel. The bulk of these refugees landed at the uninhabited isle of {{Lore Link|Herne}}, while the rest continued on to the mainland. This vanguard "warrior wave" of Yokudans, the {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}}, swept into the country, quickly slaughtering and enslaving the {{Lore Link|beastfolk}} and {{Lore Link|Nede|Nedic}} villagers before them, bloodily paving the way for their people who waited at Herne, including the {{Lore Link|Na-Totambu}}, their kings and ruling bodies. The fierce Ra Gada became, phonetically, the Redguards, a name that has since spread to designate the Tamrielic-Yokudan race in general. They ultimately displaced the Nedic peoples, for their own agriculture and society was better organized and better adapted to Hammerfell's harsh environment. They took much of Nedic custom, religion, and language for themselves in the process, and eventual contact with the surrounding {{Lore Link|Breton}} tribes and {{Lore Link|Colovia}}n Cyrodilics hastened their own assimilation into the larger Tamrielic theater. {{Lore Link|Yoku}}, the Redguard oral language, was almost entirely replaced as the need for foreign commerce and treaties increased.
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:''The most formidable of all the ills that threaten the future of the Empire arises from the presence of the Redguards within its provinces --''
|}
Under the provincial organization of the {{Lore Link|Second Empire}}, two Redguard "parties" formed to aid {{Lore Link|Cyrodiil}}'s administration of Hammerfell. The ancient Na-Totambu ruling class retained the rights of noble council as the {{Lore Link|Crowns}}, and the much-admired warriors of the Ra Gada were finally granted rights of ownership within their tribal districts. This empowerment fundamentally changed the Ra Gada, who began to call themselves the {{Lore Link|Forebears}}, firmly announcing their status as the first Redguards on Tamriel. This republic, however, lasted only so long as the Cyrodiils were strong enough to support it. During the Imperial {{Lore Link|Interregnum}}, control reverted back to the hereditary monarchy of the Na-Totambu. The new "High King" was even so bold as to move his throne from Old Hegathe to the more prosperous Forebear city of {{Lore Link|Sentinel}}, which had, by this time, mastered a third of the trade of the {{Lore Link|Iliac Bay}}.

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:<h3>The Dwarves</h3>
:Hammerfell's original name was {{Lore Link|Volenfell}}, named for the {{Lore Link|Dwemer}} "City of the Hammer" whose ruins lay nearly submerged by the sands of the {{Lore Link|Alik'r}}. Legend holds that these Dwemer were the self-exiled {{Lore Link|Rourken}} clan of {{Lore Link|Resdayn}} ({{Lore Link|Morrowind}}), who refused to participate in making peace with the {{Lore Link|Dunmer|Dark Elves}}. Thus, the Rourken chieftain threw his mighty hammer, {{Lore Link|Volendrung}}, across Tamriel, promising to lead his clansmer to "wherever it should fall." This mythic image has been depicted on the walls of several ruins in Hammerfell: a mass exodus of golden-clad dwarves, trudging through the Cyrodilic forests, Volendrung a falling star in the nightsky before them, urging them on. Sadly, these same ruins offer no clues to the mysterious disappearance of the Dwarves from Tamriel, which was everywhere the same, ca. {{Year|1E 700|1E700}}. Before quitting this subject, we might as well address the oft-used misnomer for the Dwemer, the "Dwarves." There is nothing to suggest that the Dwemer were any less towering over humans than the early {{Lore Link|Aldmer}}i were; indeed, extant Dwarven goldmail more or less fits every human lucky enough to possess it. Imperial excavation of ancient and wondrous Dwarven machinery supports the Dlyxexic theory that the translation of Dwemer as "Deep Elves" might instead be read as "Smart Elves," despite the incongruity of that notion. Perhaps, then, the "brilliant students" of the titanic {{Lore Link|Ehlnofey}} mentioned in the {{Lore Link|The Annotated Anuad|Anuad}} are the Dwarves, and that their giant masters gave them this sobriquet.{{intnote|nb1|[nb 1]}}
|}

{{Lore Link|Thassad II}} was the last of these "High Kings," for upon his death in {{Year|2E 862|CE862}}, the honorable Forebears retook Sentinel by force. Crown Prince {{Lore Link|A'tor}} then sailed from {{Lore Link|Stros M'kai}} to avenge his father, resulting in one of the bloodiest massacres of Tamrielic history. {{Lore Link|Tiber Septim}}, in his rightful duty as Heir to the {{Lore Link|Reman Dynasty}}, answered the Forebears' plea for help, sending his men to end the mad Prince's butchery. A'tor found it impossible to stand against the superiority of the Imperial legions; many of the Crowns had deserted him after seeing the glory of the reborn Empire. He and a few loyalists fled back to Stros M'kai, doggedly pursued by the West Navy, where they were soundly defeated at the {{Lore Link|Battle of Hunding Bay}}. The Emperor, in his wisdom, deemed it best to assume responsibility for Hammerfell's lawful restoration as a republic and provincial territory, where presently the Redguards spend their days as {{hover|!|proud subjects}}{{intnote|nb2|[nb 2]}} of the new Cyrodilic Empire.

Physically, the Redguards can be intimidating to an outsider, with their dark skin and wooly hair, tall, gaunt frames and finely toned physiques. Custom and dress differs by district: the Redguards of {{Lore Link|Elinhir}} are Colovian in fashion and taste, while some in {{Lore Link|Rihad}} go naked in the streets. In demeanor, they are haughty and easily provoked, and, to the last, obsessed with personal honor. Though it is widely acknowledged that Hammerfell is home to the finest warriors of the {{Lore Link|Third Empire|Empire}}, they are but indifferent soldiers, being unwilling to defer to authority or endure military discipline, and few serve in the Ruby ranks. There is no standing army in Hammerfell, only paid militias of the oft-contested border-states and along its coastline. Ancient tradition has predisposed the Redguards to knightly orders, though, customarily in the service of royal families. Initiates of these orders must prove themselves in dangerous, even deadly, tests of skill. The youths of Crown {{Lore Link|Totambu}}, for example, must sail to the Dwemer Ruins of Stros M'kai, to avoid its deathtraps and "wrestle its mechanical men back into shape" before they can join the {{Lore Link|Order of the Scarab|Knights of the Scarab}}. The more severe {{Lore Link|Order of Diagna}}, on the other hand, stages an annual recreation of the Siege of {{Lore Link|Orsinium}}, where their initiates must play the part of the {{Lore Link|Orc}}s....

The colonization of Hammerfell was a slow process, since it was mainly a barren and rocky place, with the vast Alik'r desert in the center, and only a few grasslands that hugged the coastline in horseshoe fashion. As such, Redguard civilization is divided into the cosmopolitan coastal cities on one hand, and the numerous nomadic tribes that wander the desert itself on the other. The former have adopted Breton or Imperial manners of dress and architecture, modified with motifs and styles from lost Yokuda, and some have even reorganized their gods and tribal spirits to fit into the {{hover|Hardly, The Redguards tolerate worship of Arkay, Zenithar and Kynareth because they approximate certain agriculture deities brought over from Yokuda -- Most of the other Imperial gods are disregarded as 'tobr'a' (useless, thus evil). By far the most popular gods in Hammerfell are Tall Papa, and his children: Hunding, Leki and Ansei|traditional Imperial pantheon of {{Lore Link|Eight Divines}}}}{{intnote|nb3|[nb 3]}}. The nomads are more primitive, either with trace-Nedic influences or stubbornly Yokudan, throwback castaways even to other Redguards. Devotees of {{Lore Link|Satakal}} the Serpent God are strewn among them, historically causing the A'likr border-states no end of strife. These revered madmen depend entirely on the charity of the other Redguards, though sometimes they rise in perilous bands, terrorizing the countryside in old Ra Gada fashion. Many, as in Rihad, go nude, rolling around in the dirt and nipping at the legs of passersby, "striking out" as if they were [[Lore:Snake|snakes]] themselves, while others perform terrible exhibitions of "shedding their skin". They have been seen rolling in the desert sand sidewinder-fashion in continuous, hundred-mile stretches, from {{Lore Link|Balhar}} all the way to the {{Lore Link|Nohotogrha}} oasis. The Satakals have never liked the Imperial presence, and have recently taken to {{hover|biting, he means|harassing}}{{intnote|nb4|[nb 4]}} its civil servants. The Provisional Governors have been forced to run them out of the cities for the safety of its garrisoned troops and the native citizenry at large.

Tourists have, historically, given wide berth to the Redguard cities outside of those facing the Iliac Bay. Considering the (mostly deserved) reputation of its people, Hammerfell is frequently seen as intolerant of "foreigners," where trespass is dealt with in blood. This is a shame, and a situation that the Emperor seeks to rectify, for Hammerfell itself is a beautiful country. From the twin moonrises over the Alik'r shade-temples to the austere ramparts of Old {{Lore Link|Hegathe}}, everywhere there is the appearance of antique splendor. Its people are harsh-- four hundred years of internal conflict and corrupt government have made them so-- but, taken singly, the Redguard is often a masterful work of a man. Perhaps a guiding power like the Empire, steering Hammerfell clear of the foul agents of A'tor's legacy, and protecting her from {{hover|I grow weary of pointing these out -- I trust you will find the rest --|the avarice of her Elven neighbors}}{{intnote|nb5|[nb 5]}}, will bring the same prosperity to her people that it seeks to bring to the world.

===Places of Note:===
:'''{{Lore Link|Sentinel}}'''
:Second capital of Hammerfell, Sentinel sits on the edge of the Iliac Bay. It is most definitely a merchant power, for it sits on a rocky run of hills, and the barren plains behind it offer no good soil before they run into the desert sands of the Alik'r. Its principal street is a vast marketplace stretching from the harbor all the way to the badlands gate. Sentinel Palace is the oldest and largest Redguard architectural monument, quickly built during the Ra Gada firestorm to ward against the Bretons and added to ever thereafter. Currently, this Palace is the headquarters of Provisional Governor {{Lore Link|Senecus Goddkey}}, who has been helping to administer the Forebear principalities since {{hover|Rumors persist that this Baron Volag is hiding in the hills with his personal 'blood-drinkers', waiting for a sign of weakness from the Empire.|Baron {{Lore Link|Volag}}'s disappearance}}{{intnote|nb6|[nb 6]}}. Since its Imperial reorganization, Sentinel has become an exotic retreat for the nobility of Daggerfall and Wayrest, who delight in its native cooking, craftsmanship, and the bizarre morality-plays of its Royal Theatre.

{| border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="12" class="hiddentable" style="width:50%;float:right;background-color:#EBE0C8;margin:5px 25px 10px 25px;padding:10px 1.5em 10px 0;border-radius: 20px;"
|-
| colspan="2"|
:''North of the Blue Divide''
:''The ship of my passage was captured by pirates calling themselves the "Restless League." They threw over crates from the cargo-hold -- crates full of arms meant for the Empire at Stros M'kai. And they robbed everyone aboard -- though their leader, after seeing this, my annotated pamphlet, and guessing my intent let me keep it, telling me "We must not act and speak as if asleep." -- ??''
|}

:'''{{Lore Link|Stros M'kai}}'''
:Formerly the principality of Thassad II's heir, A'tor, Stros M'kai's small island serves as the office of Provisional Governor {{Lore Link|Amiel Richton}}, who is charged with the protection and patrol of Hammerfell's barbarous southern coast. {{hover|Evidently, Richton is breaking down under the pressure of his assignment -- Stros M'Kai is very important to the Emperor and it is vital that Richton clear its waters of pirates and the sort -- even the 'Restless League' does not realize this (more concerned with (???) and that mess, I gathered)|Lord-Admiral Richton}}{{intnote|nb7|[nb 7]}} was the officer who defeated Prince A'tor in the Battle of Hunding Bay, and is the latest of a long line of heroes to serve in the Colovian West Navy. Stros M'kai itself would be an unassuming little port, famous only for its Dwemer Ruins, were it not for its presently strategic location near the {{Lore Link|Cape of the Blue Divide}}, the waters of the dread {{Lore Link|Aldmeri Dominion}}.

 <hr/> 

:''These footnotes represent the underlined margin scribbles and remarks that appeared over the original guide, written by an elf known only as "YR".''

*{{LNote|nb1|1.^|Characteristic human logic -- Why would any self-respecting {{Lore Link|Mer}} refer to himself as a "dwarf", even if it were a name given by the blessed Earthbones? Obsessed with anatomy they are -- it does not occur to them that stature may refer to things outside of the physical --}}
*{{LNote|nb2|2.^|!}}
*{{LNote|nb3|3.^|Hardly, The Redguards tolerate worship of Arkay, Zenithar and Kynareth because they approximate certain agriculture deities brought over from Yokuda -- Most of the other Imperial gods are disregarded as 'tobr'a' (useless, thus evil). By far the most popular gods in Hammerfell are Tall Papa, and his children: Hunding, Leki and Ansei}}
*{{LNote|nb4|4.^|biting, he means}}
*{{LNote|nb5|5.^|I grow weary of pointing these out -- I trust you will find the rest --}}
*{{LNote|nb6|6.^|Rumors persist that this Baron Volag is hiding in the hills with his personal 'blood-drinkers', waiting for a sign of weakness from the Empire.}}
*{{LNote|nb7|7.^|Evidently, Richton is breaking down under the pressure of his assignment -- Stros M'Kai is very important to the Emperor and it is vital that Richton clear its waters of pirates and the sort -- even the 'Restless League' does not realize this (more concerned with (???) and that mess, I gathered)}}
{{Book Footer}}

Lore:Eltheric Ocean

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<noinclude>{{cleanup-lpp}}{{Lore Places Trail}}{{Lore Place Summary
|continent=None
|type=Body of Water
|name=Eltheric Ocean
|image=ON-place-Eltheric Ocean.jpg
|imgdesc=The Eltheric Ocean, as seen from Hammerfell}}</noinclude>[[File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|thumb|right|Map showing the eastern parts of the Eltheric Ocean]]
The {{Lore Link|Eltheric Ocean}} lies to the west of [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]]. It meets the [[Lore:Padomaic Ocean|Padomaic Ocean]] in the east and encompasses the [[Lore:Abecean Sea|Abecean Sea]], [[Lore:Sea of Pearls|Sea of Pearls]], and the [[Lore:Azurian Sea|Azurian Sea]]. It contains the major island groups of [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokuda]], [[Lore:Thras|Thras]], [[Lore:Pyandonea|Pyandonea]], and the [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Summerset Isles]] as well as smaller ones such as [[Lore:The Systres|The Systres]] and individual islands like [[Lore:Herne|Herne]] and [[Lore:Cespar|Cespar]].{{Ref|[[:File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|Map of West Tamriel]]}}<noinclude>
{{NewLeft}}
==References==
<references/>

{{Nirn}}
{{stub|Place}}
</noinclude>

Lore:Varieties of Faith...

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The Silencer: moved

{{Lore Book
|MW=1
|DBName=Varieties of Faith in the Empire
|sumtitle=Varieties of Faith in the Empire
|author=[[Lore:Books by Author#Brother Mikhael Karkuxor|Brother Mikhael Karkuxor]] of the Imperial College
|description=An expansive list of the [[Lore:Gods by Pantheon|pantheons]] and associated divine spirits of Tamriel's dominant cultures
}}
{{LetterPic|T}}his is my best attempt at a listing of the pantheons and associated divine spirits of [[Lore:Tamriel|Tamriel]]'s dominant cultures. This list is by no means complete (the [[Lore:Imperial City|Imperial City]] of [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]] alone boasts a vast host of saints and holy spirits). It only includes the most important spirits revered by native members of the culture. Other {{Lore Link|et'Ada}}, especially {{Lore Link|Daedra}}, are often familiar known to many cultures, though specific names are included here only when they possess a particular cultural significance. The omission of any reference to the worships of the {{Lore Link|Argonian}}s of [[Lore:Black Marsh|Black Marsh]] is a result of my complete inadequacy in reconciling the obscure and contradictory accounts available to me on that subject.

===THE EIGHT PANTHEONS===

CYRODIIL: [[#Akatosh|Akatosh]], [[#Dibella|Dibella]], [[#Arkay|Arkay]], [[#Zenithar|Zenithar]], [[#Mara|Mara]], [[#Stendarr|Stendarr]], [[#Kynareth|Kynareth]], [[#Julianos|Julianos]], [[#Shezarr|Shezarr]], [[#Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]], [[#Morihaus|Morihaus]], [[#Reman|Reman]]

[[Lore:Skyrim|SKYRIM]]: [[#Alduin|Alduin]], [[#Dibella|Dibella]], [[#Orkey|Orkey]], [[#Tsun|Tsun]], [[#Mara|Mara]], [[#Stuhn|Stuhn]], [[#Kyne|Kyne]], [[#Jhunal|Jhunal]], [[#Shor|Shor]], [[#Ysmir|Ysmir]], [[#Herma-Mora|Herma-Mora]], [[#Mauloch|{{sic|Maloch|Mauloch|nolink=1}}]]

{{Lore Link|Altmer|ALTMER}}: [[#Auri-El|Auri-El]], [[#Trinimac|Trinimac]], [[#Magnus|Magnus]], [[#Syrabane|Syrabane]], [[#Y'ffre|Y'ffre]], [[#Xarxes|Xarxes]], [[#Mara|Mara]], [[#Stendarr|Stendarr]], [[#Lorkhan|Lorkhan]], [[#Phynaster|Phynaster]]

{{Lore Link|Bosmer|BOSMER}}: [[#Auri-El|Auri-El]], [[#Y'ffre|Y'ffre]], [[#Arkay|Arkay]], [[#Z'en|Z'en]], [[#Xarxes|Xarxes]], [[#Baan Dar|Baan Dar]], [[#Mara|Mara]], [[#Stendarr|Stendarr]], [[#Lorkhan|Lorkhan]], [[#Herma-Mora|Herma-Mora]], [[#Jone|Jone]], [[#Jode|Jode]]

{{Lore Link|Dunmer|DUNMER}}: [[#Almalexia|Almalexia]], [[#Vivec|Vivec]], [[#Sotha Sil|Sotha Sil]], [[#Boethiah|Boethiah]], [[#Mephala|Mephala]], [[#Azura|Azura]], [[#Lorkhan|Lorkhan]], [[#Nerevar|Nerevar]], [[#Molag Bal|Molag Bal]], [[#Malacath|Malacath]], [[#Sheogorath|Sheogorath]], [[#Mehrunes Dagon|Mehrunes Dagon]]

[[Lore:Yokuda|YOKUDA]]: [[#Satakal|Satakal]], [[#Ruptga|Ruptga]], [[#Tu'whacca|Tu'whacca]], [[#Zeht|Zeht]], [[#Morwha|Morwha]], [[#Tava|Tava]], [[#Malooc|Malooc]], [[#Diagna|Diagna]], [[#Sep|Sep]], [[#HoonDing|HoonDing]], [[#Leki|Leki]], [[#Onsi|Onsi]],

{{Lore Link|Breton|BRETONY}}: [[#Akatosh|Akatosh]], [[#Magnus|Magnus]], [[#Y'ffre|Y'ffre]], [[#Dibella|Dibella]], [[#Arkay|Arkay]], [[#Zenithar|Zenithar]], [[#Mara|Mara]], [[#Stendarr|Stendarr]], [[#Kynareth|Kynareth]], [[#Julianos|Julianos]], [[#Sheor|Sheor]], [[#Phynaster|Phynaster]]

[[Lore:Elsweyr|ELSWEYR]]: [[#Alkosh|Alkosh]], {{Lore Link|Khenarthi}}, [[#Riddle'Thar|Riddle'Thar]], [[Lore:ja-Kha'jay|ja-Kha'jay]], [[#Mara|Mara]], [[#Stendarr|S'rendarr]], [[#Lorkhaj|Lorkhaj]], [[#Rajhin|Rajhin]], [[#Baan Dar|Baan Dar]], [[#Azura|Azurah]], [[#Sheogorath|Sheggorath]]

===NOTES ON THE DIVINE SPIRITS OF THE PANTHEONS===

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Akatosh|Akatosh]]}} (Dragon God of Time): Akatosh is the chief deity of the [[Lore:Nine Divines|Nine Divines]] (the major religious cult of Cyrodiil and its provinces), and one of two deities found in every Tamrielic religion (the other is Lorkhan). He is generally considered to be the first of the Gods to form in the Beginning Place; after his establishment, other spirits found the process of being easier and the various pantheons of the world emerged. He is the ultimate God of the Cyrodilic {{Lore Link|Empire}}, where he embodies the qualities of endurance, invincibility, and everlasting legitimacy.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Alduin|Alduin]]}} (World Eater): Alduin is the {{Lore Link|Nord}}ic variation of Akatosh, and only superficially resembles his counterpart in the Nine Divines. For example, Alduin's sobriquet, 'the world eater', comes from myths that depict him as the horrible, ravaging firestorm that destroyed the last world to begin this one. Nords therefore see the god of time as both creator and harbinger of the apocalypse. He is not the chief of the Nordic pantheon (in fact, that pantheon has no chief; see Shor, [[#Shor|below]]) but its wellspring, albeit a grim and frightening one.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Alkosh|Alkosh]]}} (Dragon King of Cats): Pre-ri'Datta Dynasty [[Lore:Anequina|Anaquinine]] deity. A variation on the Altmeri Auri-El, and thus an Akatosh-as-culture-hero for the earliest {{Lore Link|Khajiit}}i. His worship was co-opted during the establishment of the [[Lore:Riddle'Thar|Riddle-T'har]], and he still enjoys immense popularity in Elsweyr's wasteland regions. He is depicted as a fearsome dragon, a creature the Khajiit say 'is just a real big cat'. He repelled an early [[Lore:Aldmer|Aldmeri]] pogrom of [[Lore:Pelinal Whitestrake|Pelinal Whitestrake]] during mythic times.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Almalexia (god)|Almalexia]]}} (Mother Morrowind): Most traces of Akatosh disappeared from ancient [[Lore:Chimer|Chimer]] legends during their so-called 'exodus', primarily due to that god's association and esteem with the Altmeri. However, most aspects of Akatosh which seem so important to the mortal races, namely immortality, historicity, and genealogy, have conveniently resurfaced in Almalexia, the most popular of Morrowind's divine [[Lore:Tribunal|Tribunal]].

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Arkay|Arkay]]}} (God of the Cycle of Life and Death): Member of the Nine Divines pantheon, and popular elsewhere as well. Arkay is often more important in those cultures where his father, Akatosh, is either less related to time or where his time aspects are difficult to comprehend by the layman. He is the god of burials and funeral rites, and is sometimes associated with the seasons. His priests are staunch opponents of [[Lore:Necromancy|necromancy]] and all forms of the undead. It is said that Arkay did not exist before the world was created by the gods under Lorkhan's supervision/urging/trickery. Therefore, he is sometimes called the Mortals' God.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Auri-El|Auri-El]]}} (King of the Aldmer): The Elven Akatosh is Auri-El. Auri-El is the soul of [[Lore:Anui-El|Anui-El]], who, in turn, is the soul of [[Lore:Anu|Anu]] the Everything. He is the chief of most Aldmeri pantheons. Most Altmeri and Bosmeri claim direct descent from Auri-El. In his only known moment of weakness, he agreed to take his part in the creation of the {{Lore Link|Mundus|mortal plane}}, that act which forever sundered the Elves from the spirit worlds of eternity. To make up for it, Auri-El led the original Aldmer against the armies of Lorkhan in mythic times, vanquishing that tyrant and establishing the first kingdoms of the Altmer, [[Lore:Atmora|Altmora]] and [[Lore:Old Ehlnofey|Old Ehlnofey]]. He then ascended to heaven in full observance of his followers so that they might learn the steps needed to escape the mortal plane.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Azura|Azura]]}} (Goddess of Dusk and Dawn): Azura was the god-ancestor that taught the Chimer the mysteries needed to be different than the Altmer. Some of her more conventional teachings are sometimes attributed to Boethiah. In the stories, Azura is often more a communal cosmic force for the race as a whole than an ancestor or a god. Also known as the Anticipation of Sotha Sil. In Elsweyr, [[Lore:Azurah|Azurah]] is nearly a wholly separate entity, yet she is still tied into the origins of Khajiiti out of Altmeri stock.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Baan Dar|Baan Dar]]}} (The Bandit God): In most regions, Baan Dar is a marginal {{sic|diety|deity}}, a trickster spirit of thieves and beggars. In Elsweyr he is more important, and is regarded as the Pariah. In this aspect, Baan Dar becomes the cleverness or desperate genius of the long-suffering Khajiit, whose last minute plans always upset the machinations of their ([[Lore:Mer|Elven]] or [[Lore:Man|Human]]) enemies.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Boethiah|Boethiah]]}} (Prince of Plots): Heralded by the Prophet [[Lore:Veloth|Veloth]], Boethiah is the original god-ancestor of the Dark Elves. Through his illuminations, the eventual 'Chimer', or Changed Folk, renounced all ties to the Aldmer and founded a new nation based on Daedric principles. All manner of Dark Elven cultural 'advances' are attributed to Boethiah, from philosophy to magic to 'responsible' architecture. Ancient Velothi allegories are uniformly heroic successes of Boethiah over enemies of every type, foundation stories of Chimeri struggle. Also known as the Anticipation of Almalexia.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Diagna|Diagna]]}} (Orichalc God of the Sideways Blade): Hoary thuggish cult of the {{Lore Link|Redguard}}s. Originated in Yokuda during the Twenty Seven Snake Folk Slaughter. Diagna was an avatar of the HoonDing (the Yokudan God of Make Way, [[#HoonDing|see below]]) that achieved permanence. He was instrumental to the defeat of the {{Lore Link|Lefthanded Elves}}, as he brought {{Lore Link|Orichalcum|orichalc}} weapons to the Yokudan people to win the fight. In Tamriel, he led a very tight knit [[Lore:Order of Diagna|group of followers]] against the [[Lore:Orc|Orcs]] of [[Lore:Orsinium|Orsinium]] during the height of their ancient power, but then faded into obscurity. He is now little more than a local power spirit of the [[Lore:Dragontail Mountains|Dragontail mountains]].

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Dibella|Dibella]]}} (Goddess of Beauty): Popular god of the Nine Divines. In Cyrodiil, she has nearly a dozen different cults, some devoted to women, some to artists and aesthetics, and others to erotic instruction.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Herma-Mora|Herma-Mora]]}} (The Woodland Man): Ancient Atmoran demon who, at one time, nearly seduced the Nords into becoming Aldmer. Most [[Lore:Ysgramor|Ysgramor]] myths are about escaping the wiles of old Herma-Mora. Also called the Demon of Knowledge, he is vaguely related to the cult origins of the {{Lore Link|Morag Tong}} ('Foresters Guild'), if only by association with his brother/sister, Mephala.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:HoonDing|HoonDing]]}} (The Make Way God): Yokudan spirit of 'perseverance over infidels'. The HoonDing has historically materialized whenever the Redguards need to 'make way' for their people. In Tamrielic history this has only happened three times -- twice in the {{Lore Link|First Era|first era}} during the [[Lore:Ra Gada|Ra Gada]] invasion and once during the [[Lore:Tiber Wars|Tiber War]]. In this [[Redguard:Redguard|last incarnation]], the HoonDing was said to have been either a sword or a crown, or both.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Jhunal|Jhunal]]}} (Rune God): The Nordic god of hermetic orders. After falling out of favor with the rest of that pantheon, he became Julianos of the Nine Divines. He is absent in modern Skyrim mythology.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Jode|Jode]]}} (Big Moon God): Aldmeri god of the Big Moon. Also called [[Lore:Masser|Masser]] or Mara's Tear. In Khajiti religion, Jode is only one aspect of the Lunar Lattice, or [[Lore:Ja-Kha'jay|ja-Kha'jay]].

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Jone|Jone]]}} (Little Moon God): Aldmeri god of the Little Moon. Also called [[Lore:Secunda|Secunda]] or Stendarr's Sorrow. In Khajiti religion, Jone is only one aspect of the Lunar Lattice, or ja-Kha'jay.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Julianos|Julianos]]}} (God of Wisdom and Logic): Often associated with Jhunal, the Nordic father of language and mathematics, Julianos is the Cyrodilic god of literature, law, history, and contradiction. Monastic orders founded by Tiber Septim and dedicated to Julianos are the keepers of the [[Lore:Elder Scrolls|Elder Scrolls]].

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Kyne|Kyne]]}} (Kiss At the End): Nordic Goddess of the Storm. Widow of Shor and favored god of warriors. She is often called the Mother of Men. Her daughters taught the first Nords the use of the [[Lore:Thu'um|thu'um]], or Storm Voice.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Kynareth|Kynareth]]}} (Goddess of Air): Kynareth is a member of the Nine Divines, the strongest of the Sky spirits. In some legends, she is the first to agree to Lorkhan's plan to invent the mortal plane, and provides the space for its creation in the void. She is also associated with rain, a phenomenon said not to occur before the removal of Lorkhan's divine spark.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Leki|Leki]]}} (Saint of the Spirit Sword): Goddess daughter of Tall Papa, Leki is the goddess of aberrant swordsmanship. The [[Lore:Na-Totambu|Na-Totambu]] of Yokuda warred to a standstill during the [[Lore:Merethic Era|mythic era]] to decide who would lead the charge against the Lefthanded Elves. Their swordmasters, though, were so skilled in the Best Known Cuts as to be matched evenly. Leki introduced the Ephemeral Feint. Afterwards, a victor emerged and the war with the Aldmer began.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Lorkhan|Lorkhan]]}} (The Missing God): This Creator-Trickster-Tester deity is in every Tamrielic mythic tradition. His most popular name is the Aldmeri 'Lorkhan', or Doom Drum. He convinced or contrived the Original Spirits to bring about the creation of the mortal plane, upsetting the status quo -- much like his father [[Lore:Padomay|Padomay]] had introduced instability into the universe in the Beginning Place. After the world is materialized, Lorkhan is separated from {{Lore Link|Heart of Lorkhan|his divine center}}, sometimes involuntarily, and wanders the creation of the et'Ada. He and his metaphysical placement in the 'scheme of things' is interpreted a variety of ways. In Morrowind, for example, he is a being related to the [[Lore:Psijic Endeavor|Psijiic Endeavor]], a process by which mortals are charged with transcending the gods that created them. To the High Elves, he is the most unholy of all higher powers, as he forever broke their connection to the spirit plane. In the legends, he is almost always an enemy of the Aldmer and, therefore, a hero of early Mankind.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Lorkhaj|Lorkhaj]]}} (Moon Beast): Pre-ri'Datta Dynasty Anaquinine deity, easily identified with the Missing God, Lorkhan.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Magnus_(god)|Magnus]]}} (Magus): The god of sorcery, Magnus withdrew from the creation of the world at the last second, though it cost him dearly. What is left of him on the world is felt and controlled by mortals as {{Lore Link|magic}}. One story says that, while the idea was thought up by Lorkhan, it was Magnus who created the schematics and diagrams needed to construct the mortal plane. He is sometimes represented by an astrolabe, a telescope, or, more commonly, a {{Lore Link|Staff of Magnus|staff|MWlink=Morrowind:Staff of Magnus (artifact)}}. Cyrodilic legends say he can inhabit the bodies of powerful magicians and lend them his power. Associated with [[Lore:Zurin Arctus|Zurin Arctus]], the [[Lore:Underking|Underking]].

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Malacath|Malacath]]}} (God of Curses): Malacath is the reanimated dung that was Trinimac. A somewhat weak but vengeful Daedra, the Dark Elves say he is also Malak, the god-king of the orcs. He always tests the Dunmer for physical weakness.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Malooc|Malooc]]}} (Horde King): An enemy god of the Ra Gada. Led the [[Lore:Goblin|goblins]] against the Redguards during the first era. Fled east when the army of the HoonDing overtook his goblin hordes.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Mauloch|Mauloch]]}} (Malacath): An {{Lore Link|Orc}}ish god, Mauloch troubled the heirs of [[Lore:Harald|King Harald]] for a long time. Fled east after his defeat at the Battle of Dragon Wall, ca. {{Year|1E 660|1E660}}. His rage was said to fill the sky with his sulphurous hatred, later called the {{Year|1E 668|"Year of Winter in Summer"}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Mara|Mara]]}} (Goddess of Love): Nearly universal goddess. Origins started in mythic times as a fertility goddess. In Skyrim, Mara is a handmaiden of Kyne. In the Empire, she is Mother-Goddess. She is sometimes associated with Nir of {{Lore Link|The Annotated Anuad|the 'Anuad'}}, the female principle of the cosmos that gave birth to creation. Depending on the religion, she is either married to Akatosh or Lorkhan, or the concubine of both.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Mehrunes Dagon|Mehrunes Dagon]]}} (God of Destruction): Popular Daedric power. He is associated with natural dangers like fire, earthquakes, and floods. In some cultures, though, Dagon is merely a god of bloodshed and betrayal. He is an especially important deity in Morrowind, where he represents its near-inhospitable terrain.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Mephala|Mephala]]}} (Androgyne): Mephala is the Webspinner, or the Spider God. In Morrowind, he/she was the ancestor that taught the Chimer the skills they would need to evade their enemies or to kill them with secret murder. Enemies were numerous in those days since the Chimer were a small faction. He/she, along with Boethiah, organized the clan systems that eventually became the basis for the [[Lore:Great Houses|Great Houses]]. He/she founded the Morag Tong. Also called the Anticipation of Vivec.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Molag Bal|Molag Bal]]}} (God of Schemes, King of Rape): Daedric power of much importance in Morrowind. There, he is always the archenemy of Boethiah, the Prince of Plots. He is the main source of the obstacles to the Dunmer (and preceding Chimer) people. In the legends, Molag Bal always tries to upset the bloodlines of Houses or otherwise ruin Dunmeri 'purity'. A race of supermonsters, said to live in Molag Amur, are the result of his seduction of Vivec during the previous era.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Morihaus|Morihaus]]}} (First Breath of Man): Ancient cultural hero god of the Cyro-Nordics. Legend portrays him as the Taker of the [[Lore:White-Gold Tower|Citadel]], an act of mythic times that established Human control over the [[Lore:Heartlands|Valley Heartland]]. He is often associated with the Nordic powers of thu'um, and therefore with Kynareth.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Morwha|Morwha]]}} (Teat God): Yokudan fertility goddess. Fundamental deity in the Yokudan pantheon, and the favorite of Tall Papa's wives. Still worshipped in various areas of [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]], including [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'kai]]. Morwha is always portrayed as four-armed, so that she can 'grab more husbands'.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Nerevar|Nerevar]]}} (Godkiller): The Chimeri king of [[Lore:Resdayn|Resdayn]], the Golden Age of old Veloth. Slain during the [[Lore:Battle of Red Mountain|Battle of Red Mountain]], Nerevar was the Herald of the Triune Way, and is the foremost of the [[Lore:Temple Saints|saints of Dunmeri faith]]. He is said to have killed [[Lore:Dumac|Dumac]], the Last Dwarven King, and feasted on his heart.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Onsi|Onsi]]}} (Boneshaver): Notable warrior god of the Yokudan Ra Gada, Onsi taught Mankind how to pull their knives into swords.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Orkey|Orkey]]}} (Old Knocker): A loan-god of the Nords, who seem to have taken up his worship during Aldmeri rule of Atmora. Nords believe they once lived as long as Elves until Orkey appeared; through heathen trickery, he fooled them into a bargain that 'bound them to the count of winters'. At one time, legends say, Nords only had a lifespan of six years due to Orkey's foul magic. Shor showed up, though, and, through unknown means, removed the curse, throwing most of it onto the nearby Orcs.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Phynaster|Phynaster]]}}: Hero-god of the [[Lore:Summerset Isle|Summerset Isles]], who taught the Altmer how to naturally live another hundred years by using a shorter walking stride.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Rajhin|Rajhin]]}} (Footpad): Thief god of the Khajiiti, who grew up in the Black Kiergo section of [[Lore:Senchal|Senchal]]. The most famous burglar in Elsweyr's history, Rajhin is said to have stolen a tattoo from the neck of [[Lore:Kintyra|Empress Kintyra]] as she slept.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Reman|Reman]]}} (The Cyrodiil): Culture god-hero of the [[Lore:Second Empire|Second Empire]], Reman was the greatest hero of the Akaviri Trouble. Indeed, he convinced the invaders to help him build his own empire, and conquered all of Tamriel except for Morrowind. He instituted [[Lore:Dragonfires|the rites of becoming Emperor]], which included the ritual geas to the [[Lore:Amulet of Kings|Amulet of Kings]], a soulgem of immense power. His [[Lore:Reman Dynasty|Dynasty]] was ended by the Dunmeri Morag Tong at the end of the first era. Also called the Worldly God.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Riddle'Thar|Riddle'Thar]]}} (Two-Moons Dance): The cosmic order deity of the Khajiiti, the Riddle'Thar was revealed to Elsweyr by the prophet Rid-Thar-ri'Datta, the [[Lore:Mane|Mane]]. The Riddle'Thar is more a set of guidelines by which to live than a single entity, but some of his avatars like to appear as humble messengers of the gods. Also known as the Sugar God.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Ruptga|Ruptga]]}} (Tall Papa): Chief deity of the [[Lore:Yokuda|Yokudan]] pantheon. Ruptga, more commonly 'Tall Papa', was the first god to figure out how to survive the Hunger of Satakal. Following his lead, the other gods learned the 'Walkabout', or a process by which they can persist beyond one lifetime. Tall Papa set the stars in the sky to show lesser spirits how to do this, too. When there were too many spirits to keep track of, though, Ruptga created a helper out the dead skin of past worlds. This helper is Sep ([[#Sep|see below]]), who later creates the world of mortals.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Satakal|Satakal]]}} (The Worldskin): Yokudan god of everything. A fusion of the concepts of Anu and Padomay. Basically, Satakal is much like the Nordic Alduin, who destroys one world to begin the next. In Yokudan mythology, Satakal had done (and still does) this many times over, a cycle which prompted the birth of spirits that could survive the transition. These spirits ultimately become the Yokudan pantheon. Popular god of the [[Lore:Alik'r|Alik'r]] nomads.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Sheogorath|Sheogorath]]}} (The Mad God): The fearful obeisance of Sheogorath is widespread, and is found in most Tamrielic quarters. Contemporary sources indicate that his roots are in Aldmeri creation stories; therein, he is 'born' when Lorkhan's divine spark is removed. One crucial myth calls him the '[[Lore:Sithis|Sithis]]-shaped hole' of the world.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Sheor|Sheor]]}} (Bad Man): In Bretony, the Bad Man is the source of all strife. He seems to have started as the god of crop failure, but most modern theologians agree that he is a demonized version of the Nordic Shor, born during the dark years after the fall of {{Lore Link|Saarthal}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Sep|Sep]]}} (The Snake): Yokudan version of Lorkhan. Sep is born when Tall Papa creates someone to help him regulate the spirit trade. Sep, though, is driven crazy by the hunger of Satakal, and he convinces some of the gods to help him make an easier alternative to the Walkabout. This, of course, is the world as we know it, and the spirits who followed Sep become trapped here, to live out their lives as mortals. Sep is punished by Tall Papa for his transgressions, but his hunger lives on as a void in the stars, a 'non-space' that tries to upset mortal entry into the {{Lore Link|Far Shores}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Shezarr|Shezarr]]}} (God of Man): Cyrodilic version of Lorkhan, whose importance suffers when Akatosh comes to the fore of {{Lore Link|Imperial}} (really, {{Lore Link|Alessian Order|Alessian}}) religion. Shezarr was the spirit behind all human undertaking, especially against Aldmeri aggression. He is sometimes associated with the founding of the first Cyrodilic battlemages. In the present age of racial tolerance, Shezarr is all but forgotten.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Shor|Shor]]}} (God of the Underworld): Nordic version of Lorkhan, who takes sides with Men after the creation of the world. Foreign gods (i.e., Elven ones) conspire against him and bring about his defeat, dooming him to the underworld. Atmoran myths depict him as a bloodthirsty warrior king who leads the Nords to victory over their Aldmeri oppressors time and again. Before his doom, Shor was the chief of the gods. Sometimes also called Children's God (see Orkey, [[#Orkey|above]]).

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Sotha Sil|Sotha Sil]]}} (Mystery of Morrowind): God of the Dunmer, Sotha Sil is the least known of the divine Tribunal. He is said to be reshaping the world from his hidden, {{Lore Link|Clockwork City|clockwork city}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Stendarr|Stendarr]]}} (God of Mercy): God of the Nine Divines, Stendarr has evolved from his Nordic origins into a deity of compassion or, sometimes, righteous rule. He is said to have accompanied Tiber Septim in his later years. In early Altmeri legends, Stendarr is the apologist of Men.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Stuhn|Stuhn]]}} (God of Ransom): Nordic precursor to Stendarr, brother of [[#Tsun|Tsun]]. Shield-thane of Shor, Stuhn was a warrior god that fought against the Aldmeri pantheon. He showed Men how to take, and the benefits of taking, prisoners of war.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Syrabane|Syrabane]]}} (Warlock's God): An Aldmeri god-ancestor of magic, Syrabane aided [[Lore:Bendu Olo|Bendu Olo]] in the Fall of the [[Lore:Sload|Sload]]. Through judicious use of his [[Lore:Warlock's Ring|magical ring]], Syrabane saved many from the scourge of the [[Lore:Thrassian Plague|Thrassian Plague]]. He is also called the Apprentices' God, for he is a favorite of the younger members of the {{Lore Link|Mages Guild}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Tava|Tava]]}} (Bird God): Yokudan spirit of the air. Tava is most famous for leading the Yokudans to the isle of [[Lore:Herne|Herne]] after the destruction of their homeland. She has since become assimilated into the mythology of Kynareth. She is still very popular in Hammerfell among sailors, and her shrines can be found in most port cities.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Tiber Septim|Tiber Septim]]}} (Talos, the [[Lore:Dragonborn|Dragonborn]]): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the [[Lore:Third Era|Third Era]] (and the [[Lore:Third Empire|Third Empire]]). Also called [[#Ysmir|Ysmir]], 'Dragon of the North'.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Trinimac|Trinimac]]}}: Strong god of the early Aldmer, in some places more popular than Auri-El. He was a warrior spirit of the original Elven tribes that led armies against the Men. Boethiah is said to have assumed his shape (in some stories, he even eats Trinimac) so that he could convince a throng of Aldmer to listen to him, which led to their eventual Chimeri conversion. He vanishes from the mythic stage after this, to return as the dread Malacath (Altmeri propaganda portrays this as the dangers of Dunmeri influence).

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Tsun|Tsun]]}}: Extinct Nordic god of trials against adversity. Died defending Shor from foreign gods.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Tu'whacca|Tu'whacca]]}} (Tricky God): Yokudan god of souls. Tu'whacca, before the creation of the world, was the god of Nobody Really Cares. When Tall Papa undertook the creation of the Walkabout, Tu'whacca found a purpose; he became the caretaker of the Far Shores, and continues to help Redguards find their way into the afterlife. His cult is sometimes associated with Arkay in the more cosmopolitan regions of Hammerfell.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Vivec|Vivec]]}} (Master of Morrowind): Warrior-poet god of the Dunmer. Vivec is the invisible keeper of the [[Lore:Vvardenfell|holy land]], ever vigilant against the [[Lore:Dagoth Ur|dark gods]] of the [[Lore:Red Mountain|Volcano]]. He/she has saved the Dunmeri people from certain death on numerous occasions, most notably when he/she taught them how to breathe water for a day so that he/she could flood Morrowind and kill the [[Lore:Akaviri|Akaviri]] invaders, ca. {{Year|2E 572|2E572}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Xarxes (god)|Xarxes]]}}: Xarxes is the god of ancestry and secret knowledge. He began as a scribe to Auri-El, and has kept track of all Aldmeri accomplishments, large and small, since the beginning of time. He created his wife, [[Lore:Oghma Infinium|Oghma]], from his favorite moments in history.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Y'ffre|Y'ffre]]}} (God of the Forest): Most important deity of the Bosmeri pantheon. While Auri-El Time Dragon might be the king of the gods, the Bosmer revere Y'ffre as the spirit of 'the now'. According to the Wood Elves, after the creation of the mortal plane everything was in chaos. The first mortals were turning into plants and animals and back again. Then Y'ffre transformed himself into the first of the Ehlnofey, or 'Earth Bones'. After these laws of nature were established, mortals had a semblance of safety in the new world, because they could finally understand it. Y'ffre is sometimes called the Storyteller, for the lessons he taught the first Bosmer. Some Bosmer still possess the knowledge of the chaos times, which they can use to great effect (the [[Lore:Wild Hunt|Wild Hunt]]).

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Tiber Septim|Ysmir]]}} (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. He withstood the power of the [[Lore:Greybeards|Greybeards]]' voices long enough to hear their prophecy. Later, many Nords could not look on him without seeing a [[Lore:Dragons|dragon]].

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Z'en|Z'en]]}} (God of Toil): Bosmeri god of payment in kind. Studies indicate origins in both [[Lore:Argonian|Argonian]] and [[Lore:Akaviri|Akaviri]] mythologies, perhaps introduced into [[Lore:Valenwood|Valenwood]] by [[Lore:Kothringi|Kothringi]] sailors. Ostensibly an agriculture deity, Z'en sometimes proves to be an entity of a much higher cosmic order. His worship died out shortly after the {{sic|[[Lore:Knahaten Flu|Knhaten Flu]]|Knahaten Flu}}.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Zeht|Zeht]]}} (God of Farms): Yokudan god of agriculture. Renounced his father after the world was created, which is why Tall Papa makes it so hard to grow food.

{{Anchor|[[Lore:Zenithar|Zenithar]]}} (God of Work and Commerce, Trader God): Member of the Nine Divines, Zenithar is understandably associated with Z'en. In the Empire, however, he is a far more cultivated god of merchants and middle nobility. His worshippers say, despite his mysterious origins, Zenithar is the god 'that will always win'.
{{Book End}}

Lore:Places H

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The Silencer: moved

{{Lore Places Trail}}

==Haafingar==
{{Lore:Haafingar}}
==Hackdirt==
{{Lore:Hackdirt}}
==Haj Uxith==
{{Lore:Haj Uxith}}
==Hakoshae==
{{Lore:Hakoshae}}
==Halcyon Lake==
{{Lore:Halcyon Lake}}
==Hallin's Stand==
{{Lore:Hallin's Stand}}
==The Halls of Colossus==
{{Lore:The Halls of Colossus}}
==Hammerfell==
{{Lore:Hammerfell}}
==Harstrad River==
{{Lore:Harstrad River}}
==Hattu Mountain==
'''Hattu Mountain''', sometimes called '''Mount Hattu''',{{ref|name=ONTKF|[[Online:Throne Keeper Farvad|Throne Keeper Farvad]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} was a mountain in the High Desert province of {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}. It was notable for being the place where {{Lore Link|Frandar Hunding}} wrote the {{Lore Link|Book of Circles}}. Shortly after, a bloody conflict known as the {{Lore Link|War of the Singers}} took place at the foot of the mountain.{{ref|name=DTS|{{Cite Book|Divad the Singer}}}}{{ref|name=RTHATH|{{Cite Book|Redguards, Their History and Their Heroes}}}}
==Haven==
{{Lore:Haven}}
==Havoc Wellhead==
{{Lore:Havoc Wellhead}}
==Heartlands==
{{Lore:Heartlands}}
==Hectahame==
{{Lore:Hectahame}}
==Hegathe==
{{Lore:Hegathe}}
==Heimlyn Keep==
{{Lore:Heimlyn Keep}}
==Helgen==
{{Lore:Helgen}}
==Heljarchen==
{{Lore:Heljarchen}}
==Helkarn==
{{Lore:Helkarn}}
==Helstrom==
{{Lore:Helstrom}}
==Herne==
{{Lore:Herne}}

==Hew's Bane==
{{Lore:Hew's Bane}}
==High Hrothgar==
{{Lore:High Hrothgar}}
==High Rock==
{{Lore:High Rock}}
==Hirstaang Forest==
{{Lore:Hirstaang Forest}}
==River Hjaal==
{{Lore:River Hjaal}}
==Hjaalmarch==
{{Lore:Hjaalmarch}}
==Hla Oad==
{{Lore:Hla Oad}}
==Holamayan==
{{Lore:Holamayan}}
==The Hollow City==
{{Lore:The Hollow City}}
==Lake Honrich==
{{Lore:Lake Honrich}}
==Howling Halls==
{{Lore:Howling Halls}}
==Hrota Cave==
{{Lore:Hrota Cave}}
==Hrothmund's Barrow==
{{Lore:Hrothmund's Barrow}}
==Hsaarik Head==
{{Lore:Hsaarik Head}}
==Hunding Bay==
'''Hunding Bay''', named after the [[Lore:Frandar Hunding|famed Redguard hero]], is a body of water in the [[Lore:Abecean Sea|Abecean Sea]], near the isle of [[Lore:Stros M'Kai|Stros M'Kai]], south of [[Lore:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]]. It is well-known as the site of the famous {{Lore Link|Battle of Hunding Bay}}.{{ref|name=PGE1Ham|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}}

==Hunting Grounds==
{{Lore:Hunting Grounds}}

==References==
<references/>

Lore:Herne (island)

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The Silencer: moved

<noinclude>{{about|the island|the Daedra of the same name|Lore:Herne (creature)}}
{{Lore Places Trail}}{{Lore Place Summary
|continent=Tamriel
|region=Abecean Sea
|type=Island
|name=Herne
|image=RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png
|imgdesc=A map showing the island of Herne}}
</noinclude>[[Lore:Herne|Herne]] is an island off the west coast of {{Lore Link|Hammerfell}}, north of {{Lore Link|Cespar}}.{{ref|[[:File:RG-map-West Tamriel-1024x768.png|Map of West Tamriel]]}} It is most notable for acting as the temporary refuge for the {{Lore Link|Yokuda}}n nobility, known as the {{Lore Link|Na-Totambu}}, during the {{Lore Link|Ra Gada}} exodus to {{Lore Link|Tamriel}} in the early {{Lore Link|First Era}}.{{ref|name=PGE1H|{{Cite Book|PGE|1|Hammerfell}}}}

Although some sources claim Herne was uninhabited before their arrival,{{ref|name=PGE1H}} others claim that it was inhabited by a tribe of {{Lore Link|Nede}}s, led by a warchief named {{Lore Link|Haakon}}. The Nedes had successfully repulsed many attacks by elves prior to the arrival of the Yokudans, but the Ra Gada ultimately exterminated them.{{ref|name=ONTKF|[[Online:Throne Keeper Farvad|Throne Keeper Farvad]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}{{ref|name=ONMarch|[[Online:March of the Ra Gada|March of the Ra Gada]] quest in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}}

After the loss of {{Lore Link|Eyevea}} to the {{Lore Link|Mages Guild}} in {{Year|2E 582}}, {{Lore Link|Sheogorath}} considered bringing Herne to the {{Lore Link|Shivering Isles}}, but it was not the right shape.{{ref|name=CHAYQ|{{Cite Book|Chamberlain Haskill Answers Your Questions}}}}<noinclude>
{{NewLeft}}

==References==
<references/>

{{Nirn}}</noinclude>

User talk:The Silencer

2019-11-04T00:48:21Z

The Silencer: /* Behaviour */ reply

Skyrim:Sigar

2019-11-03T23:10:39Z

The Silencer: its already there though

{{NPC Summary
|protected=Yes
|loc=Radiant
|race=Nord
|gender=Male
|class=[[Skyrim:Bandit (class)|Bandit]]
|faction={{Faction|DA11CannibalFaction}}
|refid=
|baseid=000B85BE
|image=SR-npc-Sigar.jpg
|imgdesc=Sigar roaming the wilderness
|aggress=Aggressive
|moral=No Crime
|health={{hover|Values: 35, 109, 238, 318, 398, 489|35-489}}
|magicka=25
|stamina={{hover|Values: 70, 86, 107, 152, 172, 246|70-246}}
|level={{hover|Values: 1, 5, 9, 14, 19, 25|Radiant (1-25)}}
|leveled=1
|skills='''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]
|voicetype=MaleNord
}} [[Category:Skyrim-NPCs-World Interactions]]
'''Sigar''' is a [[Skyrim:Nord|Nord]] [[Skyrim:Bandit (class)|bandit]] and a cannibal. After the conclusion of the quest [[Skyrim:The Taste of Death|The Taste of Death]], you may [[Skyrim:World Interactions#Namira Cultist Offers the First Bite|encounter]] him in the wilderness standing over a dead person's body. He will recognize you, saying: ''"It is the Champion of Namira! I was just about to eat. Here, you should have the first bite."'' If you killed the cannibals during the related quest however, Sigar will be hostile towards you.

Sigar can also show up near a corpse after you killed Eola and failed at the Taste of Death quest; when you get near him, he'll say ''"Don't look at me. I didn't kill her. I was just... making sure the body got buried."'', and then start running away from the Dragonborn in fear.

Sigar wears [[Skyrim:Ragged Robes|ragged robes]], and is equipped with a leveled [[Skyrim:Dagger|dagger]] which can be up to [[Skyrim:Daedric|Daedric]] quality. He can cast the spells [[Skyrim:Flames|Flames]], [[Skyrim:Heal Other|Heal Other]], [[Skyrim:Muffle (spell)|Muffle]], and [[Skyrim:Invisibility (spell)|Invisibility]].

He is tied to the corpse and will follow it if it's moved (either manually or via [[Skyrim:Reanimate|reanimation]]).{{vn}}
{{NewLeft}}
== Related Quests ==
*{{Quest Link|The Taste of Death}}

== Bugs ==
{{Bug|Sigar may still be encountered and recognize you as the Champion of Namira, regardless of quest actions.|USKP|1.3.2}}
{{Bug|Sigar may disappear mid conversation.|vn=1}}

{{Stub|NPC}}

Skyrim:Sigar

2019-11-03T23:03:21Z

The Silencer: add dialogue and bug

User talk:The Silencer

2019-11-03T22:53:51Z

The Silencer: /* Behaviour */ reply

Skyrim talk:Easter Eggs

2019-11-03T12:35:56Z

The Silencer: /* how about this star wars easter egg then? */ speaking of accuracy

{{Notice|Editors, you are welcome to propose anything as an [[SR:Easter Eggs|Easter Egg]] or reference, or comment regarding the current page, but first consider that a reference cannot be generic (unspecific), such as giant animals. All references to the gameplay and world of past Elder Scrolls games belong on the [[SR:Elder Scrolls Historical References|Historical References page]]. Many specific topics have already been discussed, such as [[Skyrim_talk:Easter_Eggs/Archive_4#Harry_Potter_Aragog_and_Nagini_reference|Harry Potter's giant snakes]], '''[[Skyrim_talk:Easter_Eggs/Archive_7#Harry_Potter_Deathly_Hallows_Symbol|the Deathly Hallows symbol]]''', and [[Skyrim talk:Easter Eggs/Archive 1#Sweetroll|sweetrolls]], so '''please check the [[Skyrim:Easter Eggs/Archives|archives]] before posting''' for discussions which might address your proposal or concern.}}

{{Archive Table|title=[[Skyrim:Easter Eggs/Archives|Archives]]
|Archive 1||Nov. 11, 2011 - Nov. 28, 2011
|Archive 2||Nov. 28, 2011 - Dec. 8, 2011
|Archive 3||Dec. 8, 2011 - Dec. 13, 2011
|Archive 4||Dec. 13, 2011 - Jan. 1, 2012
|Archive 5||Jan. 2, 2012 - Jan. 24, 2012
|Archive 6||Jan. 24, 2012 - Feb. 21, 2012
|Archive 7||Feb. 21, 2012 - Mar. 23, 2012
|Archive 8||Mar. 30, 2012 - Jun. 1, 2012
|Archive 9||Jun. 2012 - Aug. 2012
|Archive 10||Aug. 2012 - Sep. 15, 2012
|Archive 11||Sep. 2012 - Oct. 2012
|Archive 12||Oct. 2012 - Nov. 2012
|Archive 13||Dec. 2012 - Jan. 2013
|Archive 14||Feb. 2013 - Mar. 2013
|Archive 15||Mar. 2013 - Jul. 2013
|Archive 16||Aug. 2013 - Feb. 2014
|Archive 17||Mar. 2014 - Oct. 2014
|Archive 18||Sep. 2014 - Jun. 2016
}}

== Hunch back of notre dame reference ==

During the quest a night to remember you need to get your wedding back from Moira a hagraven who you supposedly married when you ask for it back she says that you want it for that hussy with the dark feathers Elsmerelda" then she attacks you. I think this is a reference to the disney movie hunchback of notre dame because in it is a dark haired character elsmerelda who is dark haired and very.... charming.[[Special:Contributions/173.13.238.77|173.13.238.77]] 22:25, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
:The actual line is ''You want it for that hussy Esmerelda, with the dark feathers – don't you?'' Hagraven feathers are black/grey, which is a dark color. I don't think this was intended to be a reference to anything. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 23:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

::a quick google for the name Esmerelda makes it clear that google assumes you searched Hunchback of Notre Dame,
::in that search, wikipedia does mention a witch named Esmerelda on a television show
:: that was apparently one of the best 50 shows of all time in 2002. ...''Bewitched''
::Hunchback is definitely old enough to have been an inspiration for naming the ''Bewitched'' character,(1831)
:: and the original Esmeralda getting hung for being a witch seems a strong hagraven connection too.
::longpinkytoes 00:02, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== Broken link at Arthurian Lore ==

When you click "unmarked small pool" e links to http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unmarked_Places#Smaller_Anomalies but the correct link is http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unmarked_Places#Smaller_Places_of_Interest {{Uns2|17:02, 20 September 2016|131.72.220.136}}

:The page has been updated, thanks. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

== Star Wars imagery ==

During the Dawnguard quest Touching The Sky, you go to the Forgotten Vale, which is dotted with caves. One of these caves, Sharpslope Cavern, has an image of Boba Fett's helmet, right down to the antenna on the left side. Go in the cavern. Follow the slope down, take a left, down further, take a right. Right there in front of you is Boba Fett. {{Unsigned| 71.205.208.226|02:24, 28 September 2016 (UTC)}}

:I find it doubtful that such an obvious reference would be included in a cave, even such a minor cave. I have looked this up online and found nothing to suggest that this cave contains any reference to Boba Fett; but I will check it in-game later today and update this. [[User:AlphaAbsol|AlphaAbsol]] ([[User talk:AlphaAbsol|talk]]) 03:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

:: It does exist, but doesn't really look like Boba Fett's helmet. See [[:File:User-KINMUNE-FettHead.jpg|User-KINMUNE-FettHead.jpg]]. In the CK, it is a generic piece, CaveGBoulderL04. - [[User:KINMUNE|KINMUNE''']] ﴾[[User Talk:KINMUNE|TALK]]﴿ 04:23, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

:::Yeah, I do see how it could be taken to look like that but it's, of course, not enough to be an easter egg, especially due to it being a generic boulder. [[User:AlphaAbsol|AlphaAbsol]] ([[User talk:AlphaAbsol|talk]]) 04:49, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

== Baba Yaga (a witch in Russian folklore) reference in "A Night to Remember" ==

Moira, the hagraven the Dragonborn marries while blacked out in the quest a "Night to Remember," is a possible reference to the character Baba Yaga, a witch often featured in Russian folk tales. In Russian folk tales, a hero on a quest seeks her out in her home in the woods, and though fearsome, she is not always hostile. Her house stands on chicken legs, while Moira's house stands on stilts, so its possible this reference is inadvertent. However most houses in Skyrim are not built on stilts, which makes the choice seem intentional. {{Unsigned2|04:24, 11 November 2016‎ (UTC)|SashaTheRussian}}

:I wouldn't say this is enough to be a reference. The only thing really linking it is the fact that it's a witch with a house on stilts. Witches are common in most fantasy, and the house being on stilts is probably just a coincidence, especially because the myth has the house on chicken legs, not on stilts. [[User:AlphaAbsol|AlphaAbsol]] ([[User talk:AlphaAbsol|talk]]) 05:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

== Dawngaurd dwemer schematics ==

For the quest Ancient Technology you have to retrieve some schematics for Sorine Jurard, but if you look at the bottom left of the schematic the electronic symbol for a directly heated triode valve(vacuum tube) is visible and to the right (partially obscured) is the electronic symbol for an electrostaticly deflected CRT. Now the more i look at this diagram the more electronic symbols i see.
[[Special:Contributions/81.156.182.160|81.156.182.160]] 14:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

: Are you talking about [[:File:SR-icon-misc-Schematic.png|this]]? I can see the resemblance. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:46, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

== Princess Mononoke ==

* Beyond the walls of [[Skyrim:Halted Stream Camp| Halted Stream Camp]] there are a [[Skyrim:High Elf|High Elf]] wearing a belted tunic, and [[Skyrim:Deer|deer]] at the bottom of a pit with sharpened wooden spikes. This is likely to be a reference to [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Yakul Yakul] and [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Ashitaka Prince Ashitaka] and the sharpened palisades of [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Irontown Irontown].
Moved this from the article. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 03:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

:It would be nice to have some context to go on for those of us who do not know "Princess Mononoke". What exactly makes the dead elf and the dead deer a reference to the elk and the young noble? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:07, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

::Nothing is the real answer. The only thing in common here are the horns on the deer. The High Elf would need to be human wearing a blue top and white/cream trousers, and the deer would need to be an elk. The spikes in the pit have no commonality with the spikes around Irontown other than being spikes in the ground. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

:::some context for non-anime fans:
:::[http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Ashitaka Ashitaka] is an Emishi prince from a literal royal family of [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Emishi_Village Emishi Village]
:::descended from the [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jomon-culture Jomon] from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal Lake Baikal], an elder race distinct from [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Chihiro_Ogino modern humans.]
:::the High Elf is from the race that deems itself the royal family of Tamriel,
:::descended from [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmer Aldmer], from [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Summerset_Isle Sommerset Isles] an elder race distinct from [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Man Imperials/Nords/etc.]
:::the argument that he should be human ignores that there is no way to tell a human is nobility
:::where making him Altmer makes it visibly obvious that he at least thought of himself that way.
:::the harder case to argue was that the elf and elk did not arrive together, given that they seem to be
:::in identical states of decay, fell in the same hole, have yet to be looted by the bandits, etc.

:::"the spikes in the ground have nothing in common with spikes in the ground, aside from being spikes in the ground."
:::while the entire camp is surrounded by palisades, these are lined up like pencils in a box
:::the randomness and isolated placement of the pit spikes just outside the walls of Halted Stream
:::mimic the erratic placement of the defensive spikes just outside the walls of Iron Town.
:::a blue shirt was not available until hearthfires, and only for children at that
:::Yakul, who is a fantasy hybrid not an elk, looks like skyrim deer. skyrim elk look more like moose.
:::longpinkytoes 02:22, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

== Nightbreed reference ==

In the Dark Brotherhood, there is a vampire named Babette.

This character could be a nod to the movie [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbreed Nightbreed].

"''A female Nightbreed named Rachel pleads for Lori to take it out of the sunlight. Once in the shadows, it transforms into a little girl who is Rachel's daughter '''Babette'''''" {{Uns2|20:00, 22 June 2017|Bonechip}}

:Babette contains more relevance to Interview with a nightmare than Nightbreed or Cabal, the book the film is adapted/based on. And no offense, but the film certainly and the book do not appear to have been widespread enough to think that it would have reached the attention of anyone working on Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

== Half-Life reference ==

In the quest [[Skyrim:Angarvunde_(quest)|Discover the treasure of Angarvunde]], when the player accepts the deal offered by [[Skyrim:Medresi_Dran|Medresi Dran]], she has this dialogue line:
"''Excellent. '''With my brains and your brawn''', that treasure will soon be mine... uh, ours.''"

Bethesda's developers (among many others...) have several times suggested that Valve's game has been a huge inspiration to them in all their projects. I wonder if it can be a nod to the well known scientist line : "'''''with my brains and your brawn''' we'll make an excellent team''". Besides, scientists teaming with Gordon in HL1 were well known for quickly rushing into a trap or an alien, which is what Medresi Dran does at the end, rushing to the treasure...and dying in a trap.
--[[User:Jprc|Jprc]] ([[User talk:Jprc|talk]]) 11:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

:I doubt this is a Half-Life reference. It's a common turn-of-phrase. --[[User:Rezalon|Rezalon]] ([[User talk:Rezalon|talk]]) 13:43, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

::a google search for "with my brains and your brawn" (using quotes) yields 481 results.
::the first four hits on page one are for Half-Life, and the fifth for an obscure political cartoon
::following them, all six suggested images are from Half-Life, with the images page being Half-Life 4:1
::it actually took much longer to write these 4 lines than to confirm the reference to Half-Life.
::longpinkytoes 23:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Half-life may be the top listings on google, but that doesn't make it a reference, not when the exact line can be sourced to something from over 50 years ago. A phrase in itself does not make a reference when it is such a base trope as this, as well as the trope of the person trying to screw you over getting their comeuppance just as they are about to succeed. On the second page of google there are 5 different books with this exact phrase, as well as the Brains and Brawn page on tvtropes. This is then followed up with multitudes of people quoting Half-Life on various forums, almost all of them using the full sentence and not just the first part. It is hard to see that this partial phrase in this setting is a reference, and not just someone using a very common phrase. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

::::a team of 100 developers worked on Skyrim from 2006-2011, and Half-Life sold 9 millionth copy some time in 2008
::::and the op has mentioned that many if not all of those 100 were avid players of Half-Life during the development cycle.
::::while not all 100 developers were in charge of penning the in-game dialogues and likely not all played Half-Life,
::::the line in question seems to be as common a line from an npc as 'arrow in the knee' so would be a common in-house meme.
::::but if a bunch of 20 somethings referencing brains and brawn instances from before they were born seems more likely to you,
:::: maybe you're right and the line of dialogue was actually inspired by Westley, Inigo, and Fezzik the giant instead. ;)
:::: [My brains, his steel, and your strength against sixty men?]
::::longpinkytoes 01:13, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Being a reference to Fezzik seems far more likely to me than a reference to Half-Life. And as noted, it's a very common saying. It seems highly unlikely to me that out of a team of 100 developers, no one would have ever heard a phrase that has been bandied about all over pop culture for the previous half-century.

:::::And to be honest, that phrase doesn't make me think "Half-Life". If they'd wanted to make an explicit reference, there are many other lines that would have been more definitive, in my opinion. [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 02:14, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::: i was willing to believe it was '''a phrase bandied about all over pop culture for the previous half-century,''' but...
::::::.
::::::Jan 1, 1900 – Jan 1, 1970 Your search - with my brains and your brawn - did not match any documents. Reset search tools
::::::Jan 1, 1900 – Jan 1, 2000
:::::: 1. Dragonball Z (1996) Launch: With your brawn and my brains, we could pull off some major bank heists.
:::::: 2. Aug 2, 1999 With my brawn and his brains, I lifted my 40-pound monitor and while he...
::::::Jan 1, 1900 – Jan 1, 2010
:::::: 1. May 19, 2009 Sometimes, Brains and Brawn serve as heroes, but other times...
:::::: 2. Feb 1, 2001 Inigo Montoya: Your brains, Fezzik's strength, my steel.
:::::: 3. Feb 1, 2001 Luthor tells Nuclear Man, "With my brains and your brawn, I could be king." "What...
:::::: 4. Feb 1, 2001 You've got the brawn. I've got the brains. Let's make lots of…
:::::: 5. Nov 15, 2002 Bra grinned "Not with my brains and your brawn. I figure we can do it in a week.
:::::: 6. Sep 3, 2004 ... open the wav file you will here a scientist saying "With your brains and my brawn,
:::::: 7. May 25, 2007 Quotes. “With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team !”
:::::: 8. May 30, 2007 Hmm...your power level is puny. Ha. ...... With your brawn and my brains, we could pull off...
:::::: 9. Jul 23, 2008 ClaudeGTA3 9 years ago #3. With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team.
:::::: 10. Apr 8, 2009 Uploaded by HalfLifeScientist With my brains and your brawn we'll make an excellent team
:::::: 11. Nov 25, 2009 "With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team!
::::::.
::::::In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 250 already displayed.
::::::the entries that keep repeating up to the 2010 cutoff are Dragonball Z and Pet Shop Boys. both are near misses.
::::::the phrase first appears as Skyrim goes into production, is unique in 2010, and Skyrim released the following year in 2011.
::::::longpinkytoes 16:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}The phrase in question is not unique to Half-Life. The 50+ year old source is that obscure political cartoon by Bill Maudlin entitled "With my brains and your brawn" done in 1964. No-one said it was a pop culture phrase at all, it simply existed long before a very popular game used it in what became a very memorable situation. I saw an allusion that the line in Half-Life is in fact a reference to Crash Bandicoot and Dr Neo Cortex, but couldn't see any evidence. The quote from May 25 2007 you list is the exact phrase from HL but 2 years before Half-Life was released (the alluded Bandicoot game was 2004). All in all I am actually saying it is not a reference at all, just a sentence in a game where more than 98% of the dialogue is not a reference to something from another game. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

: the link from May 25, 2007 that seems to predate Half-Life is from this site: www.writeups.org/walter-bennett-half-life/
: the link above it from Sep 3, 2004 is from 'The Whole Half-Life' here: twhl.info/tutorial.php?id=85
: google may skim the posting date from the site metadata, calling into doubt dates not confirmed on the page itself.
:.
: the basis of this easter egg is a follower inviting themselves along with the protagonist by arguing their merit as a follower.
: the basis of that cartoon is tricking an enemy using greed to act as an ally, which could be seen as an unflattering bible reference.
: the brains and brawn trope page does not have a single match to the exact phrase, the 5 books were written from 2011-2017 ''after'' Skyrim
:longpinkytoes 16:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm still unconvinced. If the rest of the phrase (the "make an excellent team" part) had been included this would be a slam dunk, but it's not there. And what is there has appeared many times before Half-Life. In fact, one of your examples includes the exact phrasing:

:::''3. Feb 1, 2001 Luthor tells Nuclear Man, "'''With my brains and your brawn''', I could be king."''

::This a quote from ''Superman IV: The Quest for Peace'', which was released in 1987 (not 2001, as the timestamp on that quote would indicate), and predates Half-Life by well over a decade. [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 17:36, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

::: I agree with the opposition. This phrase is simply too old/common to say with certainty that it is actually a reference to something specific. Even if the exact wording was there, I really don't see this being an egg. It's just a common expression with countless variations that incidentally appears in both games. [[User:Forfeit|Forfeit]] ([[User talk:Forfeit|talk]]) 18:53, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: good points all around, though seem to miss the main thrust of the OP, which sounds like it boiled down to:
:::: "With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team" was the "I'm sworn to carry your burdens" of Half-Life
:::: [ie. the line you heard enough of ( or ''had enough'' of lol ) to remember for life if you ever had a follower in-game]
:::: and according to many behind-the-scenes videos, Half-Life was the Skyrim at Bethesda studios, before there was Skyrim.
:::: [ie. the game that everyone played at some point, knew well, and used references from daily for in-house memes and jokes]
::::.
:::: if a game launches right now where npc's say "I'm sworn to carry your burdens, to the nearest pub ''lol'' "
:::: the fact that Skyrim ended the phrase before the punch line means there's no way one is an easter egg of the other, right? ;)
::::[[User:Longpinkytoes|longpinkytoes]] ([[User talk:Longpinkytoes|talk]]) 22:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Ah okay, so it's not just a one-off line in Half-Life. In that case, there may be something to this after all. [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 02:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

== Loki, Thor, and Mjolnir Reference? ==

Well I don't know why people missed this one, but in the quest of Dragon Rising, the grabbed guard named Hroki and Tor and the dragon named Mirmulnir, is it just me or is it a reference of Norse Mythology?
and also the weapons from Voluunrud, Okin and Eduj can be read Niko and Jude backwards.[[User:Mudcrabrider|Mudcrabrider]] ([[User talk:Mudcrabrider|talk]]) 13:34, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
:i really wanna say that Thor, Tor, Loki, and Hroki are just common combinations of norse-esque phonemes
:similar to john, jane, jack, jill. where: John and Jane went up the hill" has no meaning at all... but:
:this scripted and recorded [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tor in-game dialogue] seems to neatly tie all three together deliberately.
:longpinkytoes 16:27, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

::Hroki seems to be a common name in Skyrim, as there is at least [[Skyrim:Hroki|one other Hroki]] in the game. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 06:52, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

== A Tale of Two Cities Reference ==

Rorikstead's healer, Jouane Manette, is possibly a reference to the character Dr. Manette in A Tale of Two Cities. Both are "doctors," and share the same last name. It might also be worth mentioning that Sissel, Jouane's secret apprentice, is blonde, similar to Dr. Manette's daughter, Lucie Manette/Darnay/St. Evrémonde/D'Aulnais. The latter information doesn't really provide much though. {{unsigned|CarbonJM|01:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC)}}

:No, not even close. Same surnames and similar occupations is nowhere near enough of a similarity to even think it is a reference. Dr Manette's first name is Alexandre. Their back-stories aren't even close to being comparable (Alexandre a doctor imprisoned for years for being outspoken, Joune a healer who fought in a war, suffered no capture or ill-treatment, and has no apparent debilitation). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 09:02, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
::I did some research, and Manette is an extremely rare surname. Around 506 people with it. It seems unlikely that Bethesda would name a healer such an obscure name coincidentally. {{uns|CarbonJM|06:13, 25 October 2017}}

== Fallout reference ==

There's a reference to the ''Fallout'' series of games in Whiterun. When you ask Lars about what there is for a kid to do in town, the first thing he says is that he used to sneak into the Grey-Mane's yard and tip over their cow, which is a reference to "Brahmin Tipping" from the Fallout series. I think this should be added, as it seems highly unlikely to be just a random sentence.[[Special:Contributions/12.64.200.234|12.64.200.234]] 13:36, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Cow tipping is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:41, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Eorlund Grey-Mane and Wayland Smith ==

Eorlund is a clear reference to Wayland (or Wiolant) the Smith, who forged Beowulf's armour (Wolf armour) and the sword Gram, that Sigurd used to kill the dragon Fafnir. He was considered the greatest blacksmith in the world. {{unsigned|210.49.87.184|11:00, 30 April 2018 (UTC)}}

:He is not "clearly" a reference. Being regarded as the best smith in the world is not unique to Wayland, and it is only mentioned off-hand once, by himself. Everyone else limits him to the best in Skyrim. The wolf armor is coincidental, it is named that way as a subtle nod towards the werewolf nature of the inner circle. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

== Cicero Joker reference ==

I propose we add that Cicero is a reference to the Joker, or at least that his character is inspired by or based off him. There are only so many mass murdering, joke making psychopathic funnymen out there, it's difficult to call their similarities a coincidence.[[User:ChrisOfChaos|ChrisOfChaos]] ([[User talk:ChrisOfChaos|talk]]) 02:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

:While there are a limited number of murderous clowns, it is also the case that just because they are a murderous clown that they must be a reference to the most famous of them. Cicero and the Joker don't share a lot of similarities other than that. Cicero doesn't murder for the fun of it, he isn't "mad/deranged" in the same way the Joker is. Cicero cares if he is caught. There are a few points that seem similar, such as his "surrender" but this is immediately followed by something the Joker would never do. It's hard not to imagine that some small part of Cicero being a clown didn't come from the Joker, but I don't think Cicero himself resembles in any way the Joker, certainly not enough to believe it was an intentional design. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

== Frost ==

Just in case someone objects to the expansion of the Frost section. Grani (spelt Grane in the game) is Sleipnir's descendant. Sigurd named it such after an "old man" (Odin in disguise) told him of its ancestry. That seems pretty nailed on as another reference after Sleipnir. Loka would then appear to be referencing Loki, with a small change of spelling as it would probably be too too obvious, and might confuse some people because Loki is a dude, albeit a god-dude, who gave birth to Sleipnir after taking on the shape of a mare. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:59, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

== star wars easter egg update ==

i found a proper source for this easter egg

'''Star Wars'''
* If you venture into [[Skyrim:Bleakcoast Cave|Bleakcoast Cave]], you will find inside some interesting things. The first is a frost troll; once you have found and killed the frost troll, nearby will be a skeleton hanging upside down from the ceiling with a sword on the ground. This is a reference to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back], in which Luke Skywalker finds himself trapped by a Wampa in a cave and uses the Force to reach for his lightsaber. A similar reference appeared in the Morrowind expansion [[Bloodmoon:Easter Eggs#The Empire Strikes Back...|Bloodmoon]].

{{Uns2|18:50, 14 July 2018|64.72.210.21}}

:Actually saying what you are wanting to change is much more helpful than copying the entire paragraph and plonking it here. The only visible difference is a padlock at the end of the hyperlink rather than an arrow. For others straining to see what on earth the difference is, it is the hyperlink being changed from the Star Wars wikia to the wikipedia page. This isn't a source, its a link. The source of the egg is the game, the source of the referenced media is the media. The link does not have to be to wikipedia, there are other wiki's out there, and wikis focused on the source material rather than a general thing are usually more useful. This isn't an exception either, there are links to other wikis on the page, and there is absolutely no need to change it to wikipedia. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:17, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

== Cicero - Joker Reference ==

Cicero is a reference to the Joker from Batman.

He is a jester, which was a joker or comedian in the Middle Ages. Not only that but he dresses bizarrely, in costume, like the Batman villain. Not only are both Cicero and the Joker insane, but they have the same kind of insanity as chronically laughing serial killers. When you read his journal you will find that he goes insane midway through his criminal career after a near death experience, same as the joker, and has the characteristic maniacal laughing that makes the Joker so famous.

Most telling of all is the quote from Cicero's journal number 4. ". Cicero is dead! Cicero is born! The laughter has filled me, filled me so very completely. I am the laughter. I am the jester. The soul that has served as my constant companion for so long has breached the veil of the Void finally and forever. It is now in me. It is me. The world has seen the last of Cicero the man. Behold Cicero, Fool of hearts - laughter incarnate!"

The Joker went by many nicknames including the Jester of Genocide, the Ace of Knaves, the Crown Prince of Crime and the Harlequin of Hate. "I am the Comeback King! The Clown Prince of Chaos! The Jester of Genocide!" reads similarly to "I am the laughter, I am the jester... Behold Cicero, Fool of hearts - laughter incarnate!".

Finally, at the end of the quest "The Cure for Madness", Cicero and the Dragonborn Listener have a showdown in the Dawnstar Sanctuary where the Dragonborn must navigate a building full of traps to reach Cicero, who is feigning injury. This is similar to the Joker, who Batman has to track down after navigating traps, lies, deception and feigns.

This continues Bethesda's tradition of basing Dark Brotherhood Characters after Movie Serial Killers, like Mathieu Bellamont's journal from Elder Scrolls Oblivion showing similarities to Jason. {{uns|104.174.231.130|07:08, 10 October 2018}}

:None of these similarities are close or are anything more than surface level. I do not see this as a reference at all without clear confirmation from Bethesda. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 16:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

::Hi Alpha Kenny Buddy (AKB). Many people have stated that Cicero reminds them of the Joker, there was even a post a few above mine, so the similarities are close enough to draw comparisons. Cicero is a unique character, definitely, but he is inspired by the Joker from Batman. Maybe if he was just a Jester you could say it was coincidental, but a maniacally laughing insane serial killer who goes crazy after a near death experience and becomes a jester (joker), starts dressing in costume, and builds a labyrinth of traps, tricks, and feigns in Dawnstar? That is quite a number of "coincidences". As far as waiting for clear confirmation from Bethesda, does Bethesda confirm the Easter Eggs? If so, what is the purpose of this discussion box. Aren't all references deniable until officially confirmed? Isn't that what makes them references, as opposed to a knockoff or copy? {{uns|104.174.231.130|07:08, 10 October 2018}}

:::All of those things are superficial. They don't have similar lines (the examples provided don't match in anything but minor ways). The Joker and Cicero are not the first evil clowns in media history, it's an extremely common trope. A labyrinth of traps or feigning dead are not things that make the Joker character famous, either. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 01:42, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

::::I agree with AKB here. While the maniacal jokester trope, of which the Joker is undoubtedly the most well known, may have been the inspiration for Cicero, we typically require some more direct connection to consider it a reference, such as dialogue or appearance that is identical. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 05:36, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

== i found a new star wars easter eggs ==

At 0:58 in the song "Distant Horizons" from the official soundtrack, a part of Bastila Shan's theme from the [[wikipedia:Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic|Knights of the Old Republic]] game will play. Composer Jeremy Soule created the music for both games. {{uns|jetcold0}}

== poltergiest link problem ==

so, when i click on the link to the poltergiest film, it leads to the disambiguation page, here is where you can fix it:

here is the link that it leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltergeist_(disambiguation)

here is what it's supposed to link to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltergeist_(1982_film)
{{uns|Jetcold0|17:13, 31 October 2019 (GMT)}}

:Thanks, link is now fixed. [[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 17:28, 31 October 2019 (GMT)

== fishy stick update ==

Forums.Bethsoft.com is no longer open. Please visit our new community forums at bethesda.net/community. If you like, you can still explore archived discussion in these forums. {{uns|Jetcold0|17:13, 31 October 2019 (GMT)}}

:I'm a little unsure that this actually needs updating, the link points to still open if not current forum where the meme started. [[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 17:28, 31 October 2019 (GMT)

== i found some new star wars easter eggs ==

i found some new star wars easter eggs:

Inside of Frostfruit Inn, [[Skyrim:Erik the Slayer|Erik]] can be heard talking to his father, with his father telling him, "All I ask is that you stay on for one more season," and "That's just your mother's side in you." This is a reference to Uncle Owen's conversation with Luke in [[wikipedia:Star_Wars_(film)|Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope]]. Also, [[Skyrim:Calcelmo|Calcelmo]] can be heard telling his nephew, [[Skyrim:Aicantar|Aicantar]], "Next season for sure." {{uns2|17:58, 31 October 2019‎ |Jetcold0}}

:The dialogue by Mralki to Erik is "Yes, that's your mother's side of the family talking. Just stay on for one more season, that's all I ask." I watched a Youtube clip of the conversation between Luke and his uncle and aunt, and they reference his father, not his mother, in his nature. Any similarities in dialogue seem coincidental to me rather than deliberate, as they are quite different overall. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 14:50, 2 November 2019 (GMT)

== how about this star wars easter egg then? ==

If you travel with the ghost of [[Skyrim:Spectral_Assassin|Lucien Lachance]], he will sometimes say "I feel a disturbance in the void," which is very similar to the phrase "I feel a great disturbance in The Force," from the Star Wars movies which is often said by Force wielders.--[[User:Jetcold0|Jetcold0]] ([[User talk:Jetcold0|talk]]) 21:08, 2 November 2019 (GMT)

:You link the page where the line is transcribed and yet can't see the line isn't said like that? While there is a slight similarity in words, the meaning of the "disturbance" as communicated by Lucien's next line removes any possibility of similarity in what caused the disturbance. Please put some thought into comparing the actual lines spoken before making any more proposals. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 02:12, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

::Please don't [[Wikipedia:WP:BITE|bite]] the newcomers, Silencer. It was enough to explain why the similarity probably wasn't...you didn't need to suggest that he didn't put thought into the post. Some people see similarities when others don't; it's sufficient to leave it at that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 03:54, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

:::Nice suggestion Jetcold, I honestly think you're correct on that one. I felt like it was an easter egg the first time I heard it, definitely seems likely to me. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:58, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

::::Someone making their 5th separate post on the Easter Eggs page should have some familiarity with its rules. This topic is written as a reply to the above post about similar yet non-identical dialogue where the quote was also inaccurate. Having had that inaccuaracy pointed out the person then proceeded to make another inaccurate quote while linking a page that contained the quote, obviously begging the question as to why they didn't double-check that to avoid an immediate rebuttal of their proposal. As per the notice at the top of the page suggesting that something has probably already been discussed, this one was too, and [[Skyrim_talk:Easter_Eggs/Archive_16#Once_more_star_wars|rejected]]. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:31, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

Skyrim talk:Easter Eggs

2019-11-03T12:32:41Z

The Silencer: /* how about this star wars easter egg then? */ don't bite people RobinHood70

{{Notice|Editors, you are welcome to propose anything as an [[SR:Easter Eggs|Easter Egg]] or reference, or comment regarding the current page, but first consider that a reference cannot be generic (unspecific), such as giant animals. All references to the gameplay and world of past Elder Scrolls games belong on the [[SR:Elder Scrolls Historical References|Historical References page]]. Many specific topics have already been discussed, such as [[Skyrim_talk:Easter_Eggs/Archive_4#Harry_Potter_Aragog_and_Nagini_reference|Harry Potter's giant snakes]], '''[[Skyrim_talk:Easter_Eggs/Archive_7#Harry_Potter_Deathly_Hallows_Symbol|the Deathly Hallows symbol]]''', and [[Skyrim talk:Easter Eggs/Archive 1#Sweetroll|sweetrolls]], so '''please check the [[Skyrim:Easter Eggs/Archives|archives]] before posting''' for discussions which might address your proposal or concern.}}

{{Archive Table|title=[[Skyrim:Easter Eggs/Archives|Archives]]
|Archive 1||Nov. 11, 2011 - Nov. 28, 2011
|Archive 2||Nov. 28, 2011 - Dec. 8, 2011
|Archive 3||Dec. 8, 2011 - Dec. 13, 2011
|Archive 4||Dec. 13, 2011 - Jan. 1, 2012
|Archive 5||Jan. 2, 2012 - Jan. 24, 2012
|Archive 6||Jan. 24, 2012 - Feb. 21, 2012
|Archive 7||Feb. 21, 2012 - Mar. 23, 2012
|Archive 8||Mar. 30, 2012 - Jun. 1, 2012
|Archive 9||Jun. 2012 - Aug. 2012
|Archive 10||Aug. 2012 - Sep. 15, 2012
|Archive 11||Sep. 2012 - Oct. 2012
|Archive 12||Oct. 2012 - Nov. 2012
|Archive 13||Dec. 2012 - Jan. 2013
|Archive 14||Feb. 2013 - Mar. 2013
|Archive 15||Mar. 2013 - Jul. 2013
|Archive 16||Aug. 2013 - Feb. 2014
|Archive 17||Mar. 2014 - Oct. 2014
|Archive 18||Sep. 2014 - Jun. 2016
}}

== Hunch back of notre dame reference ==

During the quest a night to remember you need to get your wedding back from Moira a hagraven who you supposedly married when you ask for it back she says that you want it for that hussy with the dark feathers Elsmerelda" then she attacks you. I think this is a reference to the disney movie hunchback of notre dame because in it is a dark haired character elsmerelda who is dark haired and very.... charming.[[Special:Contributions/173.13.238.77|173.13.238.77]] 22:25, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
:The actual line is ''You want it for that hussy Esmerelda, with the dark feathers – don't you?'' Hagraven feathers are black/grey, which is a dark color. I don't think this was intended to be a reference to anything. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 23:16, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

::a quick google for the name Esmerelda makes it clear that google assumes you searched Hunchback of Notre Dame,
::in that search, wikipedia does mention a witch named Esmerelda on a television show
:: that was apparently one of the best 50 shows of all time in 2002. ...''Bewitched''
::Hunchback is definitely old enough to have been an inspiration for naming the ''Bewitched'' character,(1831)
:: and the original Esmeralda getting hung for being a witch seems a strong hagraven connection too.
::longpinkytoes 00:02, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

== Broken link at Arthurian Lore ==

When you click "unmarked small pool" e links to http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unmarked_Places#Smaller_Anomalies but the correct link is http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Unmarked_Places#Smaller_Places_of_Interest {{Uns2|17:02, 20 September 2016|131.72.220.136}}

:The page has been updated, thanks. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:43, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

== Star Wars imagery ==

During the Dawnguard quest Touching The Sky, you go to the Forgotten Vale, which is dotted with caves. One of these caves, Sharpslope Cavern, has an image of Boba Fett's helmet, right down to the antenna on the left side. Go in the cavern. Follow the slope down, take a left, down further, take a right. Right there in front of you is Boba Fett. {{Unsigned| 71.205.208.226|02:24, 28 September 2016 (UTC)}}

:I find it doubtful that such an obvious reference would be included in a cave, even such a minor cave. I have looked this up online and found nothing to suggest that this cave contains any reference to Boba Fett; but I will check it in-game later today and update this. [[User:AlphaAbsol|AlphaAbsol]] ([[User talk:AlphaAbsol|talk]]) 03:33, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

:: It does exist, but doesn't really look like Boba Fett's helmet. See [[:File:User-KINMUNE-FettHead.jpg|User-KINMUNE-FettHead.jpg]]. In the CK, it is a generic piece, CaveGBoulderL04. - [[User:KINMUNE|KINMUNE''']] ﴾[[User Talk:KINMUNE|TALK]]﴿ 04:23, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

:::Yeah, I do see how it could be taken to look like that but it's, of course, not enough to be an easter egg, especially due to it being a generic boulder. [[User:AlphaAbsol|AlphaAbsol]] ([[User talk:AlphaAbsol|talk]]) 04:49, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

== Baba Yaga (a witch in Russian folklore) reference in "A Night to Remember" ==

Moira, the hagraven the Dragonborn marries while blacked out in the quest a "Night to Remember," is a possible reference to the character Baba Yaga, a witch often featured in Russian folk tales. In Russian folk tales, a hero on a quest seeks her out in her home in the woods, and though fearsome, she is not always hostile. Her house stands on chicken legs, while Moira's house stands on stilts, so its possible this reference is inadvertent. However most houses in Skyrim are not built on stilts, which makes the choice seem intentional. {{Unsigned2|04:24, 11 November 2016‎ (UTC)|SashaTheRussian}}

:I wouldn't say this is enough to be a reference. The only thing really linking it is the fact that it's a witch with a house on stilts. Witches are common in most fantasy, and the house being on stilts is probably just a coincidence, especially because the myth has the house on chicken legs, not on stilts. [[User:AlphaAbsol|AlphaAbsol]] ([[User talk:AlphaAbsol|talk]]) 05:13, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

== Dawngaurd dwemer schematics ==

For the quest Ancient Technology you have to retrieve some schematics for Sorine Jurard, but if you look at the bottom left of the schematic the electronic symbol for a directly heated triode valve(vacuum tube) is visible and to the right (partially obscured) is the electronic symbol for an electrostaticly deflected CRT. Now the more i look at this diagram the more electronic symbols i see.
[[Special:Contributions/81.156.182.160|81.156.182.160]] 14:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

: Are you talking about [[:File:SR-icon-misc-Schematic.png|this]]? I can see the resemblance. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 23:46, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

== Princess Mononoke ==

* Beyond the walls of [[Skyrim:Halted Stream Camp| Halted Stream Camp]] there are a [[Skyrim:High Elf|High Elf]] wearing a belted tunic, and [[Skyrim:Deer|deer]] at the bottom of a pit with sharpened wooden spikes. This is likely to be a reference to [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Yakul Yakul] and [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Ashitaka Prince Ashitaka] and the sharpened palisades of [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Irontown Irontown].
Moved this from the article. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 03:08, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

:It would be nice to have some context to go on for those of us who do not know "Princess Mononoke". What exactly makes the dead elf and the dead deer a reference to the elk and the young noble? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:07, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

::Nothing is the real answer. The only thing in common here are the horns on the deer. The High Elf would need to be human wearing a blue top and white/cream trousers, and the deer would need to be an elk. The spikes in the pit have no commonality with the spikes around Irontown other than being spikes in the ground. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 10:33, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

:::some context for non-anime fans:
:::[http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Ashitaka Ashitaka] is an Emishi prince from a literal royal family of [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Emishi_Village Emishi Village]
:::descended from the [https://www.britannica.com/topic/Jomon-culture Jomon] from [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Baikal Lake Baikal], an elder race distinct from [http://studio-ghibli.wikia.com/wiki/Chihiro_Ogino modern humans.]
:::the High Elf is from the race that deems itself the royal family of Tamriel,
:::descended from [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Aldmer Aldmer], from [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Summerset_Isle Sommerset Isles] an elder race distinct from [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Man Imperials/Nords/etc.]
:::the argument that he should be human ignores that there is no way to tell a human is nobility
:::where making him Altmer makes it visibly obvious that he at least thought of himself that way.
:::the harder case to argue was that the elf and elk did not arrive together, given that they seem to be
:::in identical states of decay, fell in the same hole, have yet to be looted by the bandits, etc.

:::"the spikes in the ground have nothing in common with spikes in the ground, aside from being spikes in the ground."
:::while the entire camp is surrounded by palisades, these are lined up like pencils in a box
:::the randomness and isolated placement of the pit spikes just outside the walls of Halted Stream
:::mimic the erratic placement of the defensive spikes just outside the walls of Iron Town.
:::a blue shirt was not available until hearthfires, and only for children at that
:::Yakul, who is a fantasy hybrid not an elk, looks like skyrim deer. skyrim elk look more like moose.
:::longpinkytoes 02:22, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

== Nightbreed reference ==

In the Dark Brotherhood, there is a vampire named Babette.

This character could be a nod to the movie [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightbreed Nightbreed].

"''A female Nightbreed named Rachel pleads for Lori to take it out of the sunlight. Once in the shadows, it transforms into a little girl who is Rachel's daughter '''Babette'''''" {{Uns2|20:00, 22 June 2017|Bonechip}}

:Babette contains more relevance to Interview with a nightmare than Nightbreed or Cabal, the book the film is adapted/based on. And no offense, but the film certainly and the book do not appear to have been widespread enough to think that it would have reached the attention of anyone working on Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:35, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

== Half-Life reference ==

In the quest [[Skyrim:Angarvunde_(quest)|Discover the treasure of Angarvunde]], when the player accepts the deal offered by [[Skyrim:Medresi_Dran|Medresi Dran]], she has this dialogue line:
"''Excellent. '''With my brains and your brawn''', that treasure will soon be mine... uh, ours.''"

Bethesda's developers (among many others...) have several times suggested that Valve's game has been a huge inspiration to them in all their projects. I wonder if it can be a nod to the well known scientist line : "'''''with my brains and your brawn''' we'll make an excellent team''". Besides, scientists teaming with Gordon in HL1 were well known for quickly rushing into a trap or an alien, which is what Medresi Dran does at the end, rushing to the treasure...and dying in a trap.
--[[User:Jprc|Jprc]] ([[User talk:Jprc|talk]]) 11:08, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

:I doubt this is a Half-Life reference. It's a common turn-of-phrase. --[[User:Rezalon|Rezalon]] ([[User talk:Rezalon|talk]]) 13:43, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

::a google search for "with my brains and your brawn" (using quotes) yields 481 results.
::the first four hits on page one are for Half-Life, and the fifth for an obscure political cartoon
::following them, all six suggested images are from Half-Life, with the images page being Half-Life 4:1
::it actually took much longer to write these 4 lines than to confirm the reference to Half-Life.
::longpinkytoes 23:26, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Half-life may be the top listings on google, but that doesn't make it a reference, not when the exact line can be sourced to something from over 50 years ago. A phrase in itself does not make a reference when it is such a base trope as this, as well as the trope of the person trying to screw you over getting their comeuppance just as they are about to succeed. On the second page of google there are 5 different books with this exact phrase, as well as the Brains and Brawn page on tvtropes. This is then followed up with multitudes of people quoting Half-Life on various forums, almost all of them using the full sentence and not just the first part. It is hard to see that this partial phrase in this setting is a reference, and not just someone using a very common phrase. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:05, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

::::a team of 100 developers worked on Skyrim from 2006-2011, and Half-Life sold 9 millionth copy some time in 2008
::::and the op has mentioned that many if not all of those 100 were avid players of Half-Life during the development cycle.
::::while not all 100 developers were in charge of penning the in-game dialogues and likely not all played Half-Life,
::::the line in question seems to be as common a line from an npc as 'arrow in the knee' so would be a common in-house meme.
::::but if a bunch of 20 somethings referencing brains and brawn instances from before they were born seems more likely to you,
:::: maybe you're right and the line of dialogue was actually inspired by Westley, Inigo, and Fezzik the giant instead. ;)
:::: [My brains, his steel, and your strength against sixty men?]
::::longpinkytoes 01:13, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Being a reference to Fezzik seems far more likely to me than a reference to Half-Life. And as noted, it's a very common saying. It seems highly unlikely to me that out of a team of 100 developers, no one would have ever heard a phrase that has been bandied about all over pop culture for the previous half-century.

:::::And to be honest, that phrase doesn't make me think "Half-Life". If they'd wanted to make an explicit reference, there are many other lines that would have been more definitive, in my opinion. [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 02:14, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::: i was willing to believe it was '''a phrase bandied about all over pop culture for the previous half-century,''' but...
::::::.
::::::Jan 1, 1900 – Jan 1, 1970 Your search - with my brains and your brawn - did not match any documents. Reset search tools
::::::Jan 1, 1900 – Jan 1, 2000
:::::: 1. Dragonball Z (1996) Launch: With your brawn and my brains, we could pull off some major bank heists.
:::::: 2. Aug 2, 1999 With my brawn and his brains, I lifted my 40-pound monitor and while he...
::::::Jan 1, 1900 – Jan 1, 2010
:::::: 1. May 19, 2009 Sometimes, Brains and Brawn serve as heroes, but other times...
:::::: 2. Feb 1, 2001 Inigo Montoya: Your brains, Fezzik's strength, my steel.
:::::: 3. Feb 1, 2001 Luthor tells Nuclear Man, "With my brains and your brawn, I could be king." "What...
:::::: 4. Feb 1, 2001 You've got the brawn. I've got the brains. Let's make lots of…
:::::: 5. Nov 15, 2002 Bra grinned "Not with my brains and your brawn. I figure we can do it in a week.
:::::: 6. Sep 3, 2004 ... open the wav file you will here a scientist saying "With your brains and my brawn,
:::::: 7. May 25, 2007 Quotes. “With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team !”
:::::: 8. May 30, 2007 Hmm...your power level is puny. Ha. ...... With your brawn and my brains, we could pull off...
:::::: 9. Jul 23, 2008 ClaudeGTA3 9 years ago #3. With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team.
:::::: 10. Apr 8, 2009 Uploaded by HalfLifeScientist With my brains and your brawn we'll make an excellent team
:::::: 11. Nov 25, 2009 "With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team!
::::::.
::::::In order to show you the most relevant results, we have omitted some entries very similar to the 250 already displayed.
::::::the entries that keep repeating up to the 2010 cutoff are Dragonball Z and Pet Shop Boys. both are near misses.
::::::the phrase first appears as Skyrim goes into production, is unique in 2010, and Skyrim released the following year in 2011.
::::::longpinkytoes 16:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}The phrase in question is not unique to Half-Life. The 50+ year old source is that obscure political cartoon by Bill Maudlin entitled "With my brains and your brawn" done in 1964. No-one said it was a pop culture phrase at all, it simply existed long before a very popular game used it in what became a very memorable situation. I saw an allusion that the line in Half-Life is in fact a reference to Crash Bandicoot and Dr Neo Cortex, but couldn't see any evidence. The quote from May 25 2007 you list is the exact phrase from HL but 2 years before Half-Life was released (the alluded Bandicoot game was 2004). All in all I am actually saying it is not a reference at all, just a sentence in a game where more than 98% of the dialogue is not a reference to something from another game. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

: the link from May 25, 2007 that seems to predate Half-Life is from this site: www.writeups.org/walter-bennett-half-life/
: the link above it from Sep 3, 2004 is from 'The Whole Half-Life' here: twhl.info/tutorial.php?id=85
: google may skim the posting date from the site metadata, calling into doubt dates not confirmed on the page itself.
:.
: the basis of this easter egg is a follower inviting themselves along with the protagonist by arguing their merit as a follower.
: the basis of that cartoon is tricking an enemy using greed to act as an ally, which could be seen as an unflattering bible reference.
: the brains and brawn trope page does not have a single match to the exact phrase, the 5 books were written from 2011-2017 ''after'' Skyrim
:longpinkytoes 16:15, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm still unconvinced. If the rest of the phrase (the "make an excellent team" part) had been included this would be a slam dunk, but it's not there. And what is there has appeared many times before Half-Life. In fact, one of your examples includes the exact phrasing:

:::''3. Feb 1, 2001 Luthor tells Nuclear Man, "'''With my brains and your brawn''', I could be king."''

::This a quote from ''Superman IV: The Quest for Peace'', which was released in 1987 (not 2001, as the timestamp on that quote would indicate), and predates Half-Life by well over a decade. [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 17:36, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

::: I agree with the opposition. This phrase is simply too old/common to say with certainty that it is actually a reference to something specific. Even if the exact wording was there, I really don't see this being an egg. It's just a common expression with countless variations that incidentally appears in both games. [[User:Forfeit|Forfeit]] ([[User talk:Forfeit|talk]]) 18:53, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: good points all around, though seem to miss the main thrust of the OP, which sounds like it boiled down to:
:::: "With my brains and your brawn, we'll make an excellent team" was the "I'm sworn to carry your burdens" of Half-Life
:::: [ie. the line you heard enough of ( or ''had enough'' of lol ) to remember for life if you ever had a follower in-game]
:::: and according to many behind-the-scenes videos, Half-Life was the Skyrim at Bethesda studios, before there was Skyrim.
:::: [ie. the game that everyone played at some point, knew well, and used references from daily for in-house memes and jokes]
::::.
:::: if a game launches right now where npc's say "I'm sworn to carry your burdens, to the nearest pub ''lol'' "
:::: the fact that Skyrim ended the phrase before the punch line means there's no way one is an easter egg of the other, right? ;)
::::[[User:Longpinkytoes|longpinkytoes]] ([[User talk:Longpinkytoes|talk]]) 22:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Ah okay, so it's not just a one-off line in Half-Life. In that case, there may be something to this after all. [[User:Echo|Echo]] ([[User talk:Echo|talk]]) 02:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

== Loki, Thor, and Mjolnir Reference? ==

Well I don't know why people missed this one, but in the quest of Dragon Rising, the grabbed guard named Hroki and Tor and the dragon named Mirmulnir, is it just me or is it a reference of Norse Mythology?
and also the weapons from Voluunrud, Okin and Eduj can be read Niko and Jude backwards.[[User:Mudcrabrider|Mudcrabrider]] ([[User talk:Mudcrabrider|talk]]) 13:34, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
:i really wanna say that Thor, Tor, Loki, and Hroki are just common combinations of norse-esque phonemes
:similar to john, jane, jack, jill. where: John and Jane went up the hill" has no meaning at all... but:
:this scripted and recorded [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Tor in-game dialogue] seems to neatly tie all three together deliberately.
:longpinkytoes 16:27, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

::Hroki seems to be a common name in Skyrim, as there is at least [[Skyrim:Hroki|one other Hroki]] in the game. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 06:52, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

== A Tale of Two Cities Reference ==

Rorikstead's healer, Jouane Manette, is possibly a reference to the character Dr. Manette in A Tale of Two Cities. Both are "doctors," and share the same last name. It might also be worth mentioning that Sissel, Jouane's secret apprentice, is blonde, similar to Dr. Manette's daughter, Lucie Manette/Darnay/St. Evrémonde/D'Aulnais. The latter information doesn't really provide much though. {{unsigned|CarbonJM|01:42, 19 October 2017 (UTC)}}

:No, not even close. Same surnames and similar occupations is nowhere near enough of a similarity to even think it is a reference. Dr Manette's first name is Alexandre. Their back-stories aren't even close to being comparable (Alexandre a doctor imprisoned for years for being outspoken, Joune a healer who fought in a war, suffered no capture or ill-treatment, and has no apparent debilitation). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 09:02, 19 October 2017 (UTC)
::I did some research, and Manette is an extremely rare surname. Around 506 people with it. It seems unlikely that Bethesda would name a healer such an obscure name coincidentally. {{uns|CarbonJM|06:13, 25 October 2017}}

== Fallout reference ==

There's a reference to the ''Fallout'' series of games in Whiterun. When you ask Lars about what there is for a kid to do in town, the first thing he says is that he used to sneak into the Grey-Mane's yard and tip over their cow, which is a reference to "Brahmin Tipping" from the Fallout series. I think this should be added, as it seems highly unlikely to be just a random sentence.[[Special:Contributions/12.64.200.234|12.64.200.234]] 13:36, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Cow tipping is a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cow_tipping --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:41, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Eorlund Grey-Mane and Wayland Smith ==

Eorlund is a clear reference to Wayland (or Wiolant) the Smith, who forged Beowulf's armour (Wolf armour) and the sword Gram, that Sigurd used to kill the dragon Fafnir. He was considered the greatest blacksmith in the world. {{unsigned|210.49.87.184|11:00, 30 April 2018 (UTC)}}

:He is not "clearly" a reference. Being regarded as the best smith in the world is not unique to Wayland, and it is only mentioned off-hand once, by himself. Everyone else limits him to the best in Skyrim. The wolf armor is coincidental, it is named that way as a subtle nod towards the werewolf nature of the inner circle. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:46, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

== Cicero Joker reference ==

I propose we add that Cicero is a reference to the Joker, or at least that his character is inspired by or based off him. There are only so many mass murdering, joke making psychopathic funnymen out there, it's difficult to call their similarities a coincidence.[[User:ChrisOfChaos|ChrisOfChaos]] ([[User talk:ChrisOfChaos|talk]]) 02:28, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

:While there are a limited number of murderous clowns, it is also the case that just because they are a murderous clown that they must be a reference to the most famous of them. Cicero and the Joker don't share a lot of similarities other than that. Cicero doesn't murder for the fun of it, he isn't "mad/deranged" in the same way the Joker is. Cicero cares if he is caught. There are a few points that seem similar, such as his "surrender" but this is immediately followed by something the Joker would never do. It's hard not to imagine that some small part of Cicero being a clown didn't come from the Joker, but I don't think Cicero himself resembles in any way the Joker, certainly not enough to believe it was an intentional design. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:53, 15 May 2018 (UTC)

== Frost ==

Just in case someone objects to the expansion of the Frost section. Grani (spelt Grane in the game) is Sleipnir's descendant. Sigurd named it such after an "old man" (Odin in disguise) told him of its ancestry. That seems pretty nailed on as another reference after Sleipnir. Loka would then appear to be referencing Loki, with a small change of spelling as it would probably be too too obvious, and might confuse some people because Loki is a dude, albeit a god-dude, who gave birth to Sleipnir after taking on the shape of a mare. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:59, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

== star wars easter egg update ==

i found a proper source for this easter egg

'''Star Wars'''
* If you venture into [[Skyrim:Bleakcoast Cave|Bleakcoast Cave]], you will find inside some interesting things. The first is a frost troll; once you have found and killed the frost troll, nearby will be a skeleton hanging upside down from the ceiling with a sword on the ground. This is a reference to [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Empire_Strikes_Back Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back], in which Luke Skywalker finds himself trapped by a Wampa in a cave and uses the Force to reach for his lightsaber. A similar reference appeared in the Morrowind expansion [[Bloodmoon:Easter Eggs#The Empire Strikes Back...|Bloodmoon]].

{{Uns2|18:50, 14 July 2018|64.72.210.21}}

:Actually saying what you are wanting to change is much more helpful than copying the entire paragraph and plonking it here. The only visible difference is a padlock at the end of the hyperlink rather than an arrow. For others straining to see what on earth the difference is, it is the hyperlink being changed from the Star Wars wikia to the wikipedia page. This isn't a source, its a link. The source of the egg is the game, the source of the referenced media is the media. The link does not have to be to wikipedia, there are other wiki's out there, and wikis focused on the source material rather than a general thing are usually more useful. This isn't an exception either, there are links to other wikis on the page, and there is absolutely no need to change it to wikipedia. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:17, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

== Cicero - Joker Reference ==

Cicero is a reference to the Joker from Batman.

He is a jester, which was a joker or comedian in the Middle Ages. Not only that but he dresses bizarrely, in costume, like the Batman villain. Not only are both Cicero and the Joker insane, but they have the same kind of insanity as chronically laughing serial killers. When you read his journal you will find that he goes insane midway through his criminal career after a near death experience, same as the joker, and has the characteristic maniacal laughing that makes the Joker so famous.

Most telling of all is the quote from Cicero's journal number 4. ". Cicero is dead! Cicero is born! The laughter has filled me, filled me so very completely. I am the laughter. I am the jester. The soul that has served as my constant companion for so long has breached the veil of the Void finally and forever. It is now in me. It is me. The world has seen the last of Cicero the man. Behold Cicero, Fool of hearts - laughter incarnate!"

The Joker went by many nicknames including the Jester of Genocide, the Ace of Knaves, the Crown Prince of Crime and the Harlequin of Hate. "I am the Comeback King! The Clown Prince of Chaos! The Jester of Genocide!" reads similarly to "I am the laughter, I am the jester... Behold Cicero, Fool of hearts - laughter incarnate!".

Finally, at the end of the quest "The Cure for Madness", Cicero and the Dragonborn Listener have a showdown in the Dawnstar Sanctuary where the Dragonborn must navigate a building full of traps to reach Cicero, who is feigning injury. This is similar to the Joker, who Batman has to track down after navigating traps, lies, deception and feigns.

This continues Bethesda's tradition of basing Dark Brotherhood Characters after Movie Serial Killers, like Mathieu Bellamont's journal from Elder Scrolls Oblivion showing similarities to Jason. {{uns|104.174.231.130|07:08, 10 October 2018}}

:None of these similarities are close or are anything more than surface level. I do not see this as a reference at all without clear confirmation from Bethesda. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 16:10, 10 October 2018 (UTC)

::Hi Alpha Kenny Buddy (AKB). Many people have stated that Cicero reminds them of the Joker, there was even a post a few above mine, so the similarities are close enough to draw comparisons. Cicero is a unique character, definitely, but he is inspired by the Joker from Batman. Maybe if he was just a Jester you could say it was coincidental, but a maniacally laughing insane serial killer who goes crazy after a near death experience and becomes a jester (joker), starts dressing in costume, and builds a labyrinth of traps, tricks, and feigns in Dawnstar? That is quite a number of "coincidences". As far as waiting for clear confirmation from Bethesda, does Bethesda confirm the Easter Eggs? If so, what is the purpose of this discussion box. Aren't all references deniable until officially confirmed? Isn't that what makes them references, as opposed to a knockoff or copy? {{uns|104.174.231.130|07:08, 10 October 2018}}

:::All of those things are superficial. They don't have similar lines (the examples provided don't match in anything but minor ways). The Joker and Cicero are not the first evil clowns in media history, it's an extremely common trope. A labyrinth of traps or feigning dead are not things that make the Joker character famous, either. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 01:42, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

::::I agree with AKB here. While the maniacal jokester trope, of which the Joker is undoubtedly the most well known, may have been the inspiration for Cicero, we typically require some more direct connection to consider it a reference, such as dialogue or appearance that is identical. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 05:36, 11 October 2018 (UTC)

== i found a new star wars easter eggs ==

At 0:58 in the song "Distant Horizons" from the official soundtrack, a part of Bastila Shan's theme from the [[wikipedia:Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic|Knights of the Old Republic]] game will play. Composer Jeremy Soule created the music for both games. {{uns|jetcold0}}

== poltergiest link problem ==

so, when i click on the link to the poltergiest film, it leads to the disambiguation page, here is where you can fix it:

here is the link that it leads to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltergeist_(disambiguation)

here is what it's supposed to link to:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poltergeist_(1982_film)
{{uns|Jetcold0|17:13, 31 October 2019 (GMT)}}

:Thanks, link is now fixed. [[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 17:28, 31 October 2019 (GMT)

== fishy stick update ==

Forums.Bethsoft.com is no longer open. Please visit our new community forums at bethesda.net/community. If you like, you can still explore archived discussion in these forums. {{uns|Jetcold0|17:13, 31 October 2019 (GMT)}}

:I'm a little unsure that this actually needs updating, the link points to still open if not current forum where the meme started. [[User:Kiz|'''Kiz''']][[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|(email]] - [[User_Talk:Kiz|talk)]] 17:28, 31 October 2019 (GMT)

== i found some new star wars easter eggs ==

i found some new star wars easter eggs:

Inside of Frostfruit Inn, [[Skyrim:Erik the Slayer|Erik]] can be heard talking to his father, with his father telling him, "All I ask is that you stay on for one more season," and "That's just your mother's side in you." This is a reference to Uncle Owen's conversation with Luke in [[wikipedia:Star_Wars_(film)|Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope]]. Also, [[Skyrim:Calcelmo|Calcelmo]] can be heard telling his nephew, [[Skyrim:Aicantar|Aicantar]], "Next season for sure." {{uns2|17:58, 31 October 2019‎ |Jetcold0}}

:The dialogue by Mralki to Erik is "Yes, that's your mother's side of the family talking. Just stay on for one more season, that's all I ask." I watched a Youtube clip of the conversation between Luke and his uncle and aunt, and they reference his father, not his mother, in his nature. Any similarities in dialogue seem coincidental to me rather than deliberate, as they are quite different overall. --[[User:Xyzzy|Xyzzy]] [[User talk:Xyzzy|Talk]] 14:50, 2 November 2019 (GMT)

== how about this star wars easter egg then? ==

If you travel with the ghost of [[Skyrim:Spectral_Assassin|Lucien Lachance]], he will sometimes say "I feel a disturbance in the void," which is very similar to the phrase "I feel a great disturbance in The Force," from the Star Wars movies which is often said by Force wielders.--[[User:Jetcold0|Jetcold0]] ([[User talk:Jetcold0|talk]]) 21:08, 2 November 2019 (GMT)

:You link the page where the line is transcribed and yet can't see the line isn't said like that? While there is a slight similarity in words, the meaning of the "disturbance" as communicated by Lucien's next line removes any possibility of similarity in what caused the disturbance. Please put some thought into comparing the actual lines spoken before making any more proposals. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 02:12, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

::Please don't [[Wikipedia:WP:BITE|bite]] the newcomers, Silencer. It was enough to explain why the similarity probably wasn't...you didn't need to suggest that he didn't put thought into the post. Some people see similarities when others don't; it's sufficient to leave it at that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 03:54, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

:::Nice suggestion Jetcold, I honestly think you're correct on that one. I felt like it was an easter egg the first time I heard it, definitely seems likely to me. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:58, 3 November 2019 (GMT)

::::Someone making their 4th separate post on the Easter Eggs page should have some familiarity with its rules. This topic is written as a reply to the above post about similar yet non-identical dialogue where the quote was also inaccurate. Having had that inaccuaracy pointed out the person then proceeded to make another inaccurate quote while linking a page that contained the quote, obviously begging the question as to why they didn't double-check that to avoid an immediate rebuttal of their proposal. As per the notice at the top of the page suggesting that something has probably already been discussed, this one was too, and [[Skyrim_talk:Easter_Eggs/Archive_16#Once_more_star_wars|rejected]]. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 12:31, 3 November 2019 (GMT)