https://en.uesp.net/w/api.php?action=feedcontributions&feedformat=atom&user=Michaeldsuarez 2026-06-09T11:21:47Z User Contributions MediaWiki 1.32.6 https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=944829 2012-05-03T20:37:49Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Censorship */ new section</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. For certain specific requests, see instead:<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Purge Requests|Purge Requests]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:New Page Requests|New Page Requests]]<br /> {{Archive Table|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|History|<br /> |History#Page Archives|Page Archives|<br /> |History#Past Administrative Requests|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == SEVERE caching issues on ths mobile site ==<br /> <br /> Title says it all. On a whim, I checked the CP on my iPhone, and it's '''way''' out of date. I'm talking December out of date. Hard refreshing did not fix it, so it's definitely server-side. When I log in, it takes me away from (and keeps me off of) the mobile site, so I can't purge it. Can someone please take a look at this? • &lt;font color=&quot;#4faf4f&quot;&gt;[[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:1.0&quot; title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot;&gt;&lt;font face=&quot;DragonscriptRegular&quot; size=&quot;3&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Jak Atackka|Talk]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Mass Proposed Deletion ==<br /> <br /> I'm going through and cleaning up [[Special:UnusedCategories]], and a lot of empty ''faction'' categories still exist. All 364 are listed below.<br /> {{Showhide|List of categories|2=<br /> Skyrim-Factions-put on doors to keep NPCs from opening<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-friends to both sides in MQ101<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-for the NPCs who can use the load door<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for party guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for guards in front<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for NPCs who should stay out of palace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunValtheimKeepBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunUstengravDraugrFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunRavenscarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFjolaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFactionAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SpiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SecureAreaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunLostKnifeCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionWarlockAttackedbySpiders<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderNormal<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderDocile<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurThrallFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurMikrulFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFaldarsToothDogAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-anyone in this won't fight with mq101 alduin<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Wolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WinterholdJailFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Winterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmAretinoResidenceFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmApothecaryFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Whiterun Guard Neutral Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WhiterunJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-White River Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Werewolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Warmaidens<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThiefFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WITavernPatronFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemySpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEUnaggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WESpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02NobleFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02BodyguardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERJ10EnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEPlayerFriend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJSMerchantHorseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS25EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS21HunterandDogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionB<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionA<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10SprigganFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10LumberjackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL08Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06ThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06LutreshFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL05Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07JorgenFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07DaetraFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAdventurerHorseRiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20WarlockFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE19BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16DeerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FrostAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FlameAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14SkeeverFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14DogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11SabreCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11MammothFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06PredatorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE05OrcFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE03EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire Thrall<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire PC Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Used to control DialogueOrcHunters conversations<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TownIrontreeMillFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves' Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-The Pale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thalmor - Fooled by PC disguise<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Tailor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TGTQ04 Niranye Attacks Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG09 Nightingale Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG08BMercerHatesPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG07 Vald Hates Player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG02 Aringoth Player Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T03HatePlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T01EnmonFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sybille Stentor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Storm Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Steward has already been blackmailed.<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Spriggan Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Soljund's Sinkhole Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SolitudeBluePalaceServants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sleeping Giant Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Slaughterfish Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Skooma Dealer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sinding<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SilverHandFactionPacified<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildNiranye<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildMallus<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildGulumEi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEnthir<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEndon<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanZaynabi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanMajhad<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanAtahba<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesHonningbrewMeaderyPost<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesDawnstarWindpeakInn<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rorikstead Manor Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Robber's Gorge Bandit Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Riverwood Trader Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Restoration Ritual Ghost Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last successful<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last failed<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is the player's active mission<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 2<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 1<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank 1 = Being Absorbed, 2 = Done<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Radiant Raiments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put in this faction to get WI follower comments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put dragon here when player absorbs power<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player set prisoner free (used to conditionalize packages, etc.)<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player is being escorted by a friend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player has accepted mission hooks from this field co<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player assaulted this NPC<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player Horse Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerWerewolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerMarriedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Penitus Oculatus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-POIVolcanicHunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Owners of the Common House<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Orthorn's Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Stormcloak<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Imperial<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Once the player gives the cow to the giant they are both permamently added to this faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Nilheim Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Immune to Mehrunes Razor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Captured by Bandits<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Moorside Inn Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageRivalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageCourtingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageAskedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthStewardOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them more suspicious in dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them enemies of the player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatPrisonerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatCaptorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Make dungeon creatures not attack me<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS08AlikrBaseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS06CultistFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletGuardEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02GrisvarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02ForswornFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinKillMargretFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinBeserk<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01TreasuryHouseEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01ConspiracyCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQGreybeardTrainingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQBladesSparringFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ306TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ304AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301SoldierDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301CombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206PastFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AncientAlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ202EnemyofPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201ThalmorEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201FriendDistractionDoneFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103SonsOfSkyrimSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103ImperialSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ102ChatterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101StormcloakFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101LokirEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101ImperialFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG05CreatureFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG03 Caller Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG02BossNonCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Largashbur Orcs<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kyne's Peace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kolskeggr Mine Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Karthwasten Guard<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-KarthwastenPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobStewardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobPriestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHousecarlFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobCarriageFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Ice Wraith Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunters of Hircine<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunter Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horker Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horgeir's House Occupants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Honningbrew Meadery<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Great Council Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Gray Pine Goods<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Giant Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Frost Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Forsworn Dog Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ForceFullBodyStagger<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For intimidate brawling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For dailogue when Thalmor have prisoner with them<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fletcher<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Flame Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fisherman Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fence<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellstar Farm Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellglow Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowIntimidateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowBribeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer Servant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FalkreathJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Exiled Government<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Eorlund Gray-Mane<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Enemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-East Empire Company<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DunAnsilvundBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dummy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dremora Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DragonsreachBasementGuards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DismissedFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Wndhelm Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Haafingar Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Falkreath Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Dawnstar Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Death won't trigger WIKill04<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dark Brotherhood Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Daedra<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB RecurringTarget 9 CrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Player Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Gianna Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DBCiceroDawnstarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB09 Door Lock Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Player Hate Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Orc Dream Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16OrcAmbushFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16ErandurFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11GlooredhelAllyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11CannibalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11AttackPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA10PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA09TemporaryDragonFriendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA08SelfPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07RazorOwnerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA03VampireFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02GuardsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ElisifAfraidOfPlayer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CultistsAreEnemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CulistsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ConduitPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01NelacarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentHireling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crowd Spectator<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crew of the Red Wave<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Condition on Spectator Idle Anims<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatHateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsSingleCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold Arch-Mage Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Evoker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Apprentice<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Chaurus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Can show up at battles in this hold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSurrenderTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierDefenderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierAttackerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierArcherFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWinterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWhiterun<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionRift<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionReach<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionPale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionHjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionFalkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08EnemyToGiant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission04PrisonerFreedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission03BedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortPatrolExteriorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortJailorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortGatekeeperFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortCommanderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWFinaleTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDisaffectedSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToDefendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWCivilianFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06PlayerWolfSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06KodlakAndWolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00JorrvaskrFightingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00GiantHuntFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Hunter<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Collector<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Blue Palace Guard for DA02<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BladesRecruitsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bits and Pieces<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardNoRequestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardAudienceMarker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bannered Mare Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaSelfLoathingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Allowed Faction for Execution Guard Package<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Agents of the Black Marsh<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-After Hadvar/Ralof get to know you, they are in this faction - used to conditionalize dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-1 = Imperial, 2 = Stormcloak supporter<br /> }}<br /> <br /> Now, some of these are just alternative descriptions of currently used faction categories, but some are used temporarily for individual quests. I am not too sure these should be kept as categories, though; rather, they should be described on the faction page. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :So, after thinking about, I want to go ahead and propose all empty faction pages for deletion. I really do not believe they serve a purpose by &quot;being empty&quot;; it doesn't really add to the fact that there is no one in that faction. So any of them found on [[Special:UnusedCategories]] are ''officially'' proposed for deletion. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Being 10 days old now, these can be deleted. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Done. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::Thanks! Not to be picky, but my second comment prodded ALL of the faction pages, which includes Tes3Mod and Morrowind. However, I still want opinions regarding those. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 02:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::And Oblivion, right? Well, they would be useful, if we could determine who is ever a member of the group. However, I see no way of going through the game scripting to determine who joins what faction. As such, I don't see a problem with them being deleted. However, I think we should err on the side of caution with Tes3mod factions, as all of those factions are a part of Tamriel Rebuilt, which is still a work in progress. We may have a need for them yet. The others however, should be deleted. If we were going to figure out a way to add all relevant NPCs to their factions, surely we would of done this already when the bots were running. Most of them also appear to only exist for the PC, so there intended purpose (categorizing what NPC is in what faction), can never be fulfilled as the faction only exists for the PC. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Actions to be Made ==<br /> <br /> This is a list of actions that I believe are required to be made for this community to continue to function. After recent actions, many users have been driven away from the site due to a number of recent actions and a rise in drama. Some of these actions were only made possible by a degree of mercy to those involved, which obviously did not work out for the best. While these actions will appear to be rather dramatic in themselves, I don't think this site can continue until we get past this. I've given this quite a bit of thought, so I hope this comes off as logical as I can manage. As a final note before I begin listing my reasons for these actions I'm about to make and my request for several others to be done for actions I cannot make myself, I sincerely apologize that I did not make them earlier.<br /> <br /> #[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] is to be blocked immediately. After his removal from the administration of the site, very few of his actions couldn't arguably be considered a personal attack, or at least disruptive. As examples, take [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 this] (where he insulted the founder of the site, and is grounds for immediate block in itself), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 this] (which while not a personal attack, is in no way polite, violating our Etiquette guidelines), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 this] (while there is nothing wrong with opposing a nomination, there is something wrong with making accusations about someones personal behavior (i.e. accusing Robin of sucking up to other editors to get his way) without evidence to back it up), and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 this] (where he described Robins actions as a &quot;Total disgrace&quot;). For these actions, I do not see how continuing to allow rpeh to edit will benefit the community when I can find only two actions (replies to messages on his talk page) since his de-adminning that hasn't been disruptive or have been grounds for blocking, I find it hard to defend allowing him to continue to edit for now. If he wishes to contribute positively, I will be both willing to listen to a block appeal and unblock him if the community agrees that he wishes to provide assistance to the site as an editor again.<br /> #&lt;s&gt;[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] should have his administrative rights removed for the foreseeable future. While his most recent activity was him announcing he wishes to take a wikibreak, he did return to leave [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934980 this opposition] to Robin's RFA. In it he showed contempt for several editors, accusing them of being part of a conspiracy to make certain decisions, and generally accused many recent actions of being idiocy. However, that is not all of his recent actions that was not appropriate for any user, let alone an administrator to make. He also pointed out a few of his other offenses, such as his actions during the request fro de-adminship for rpeh. See the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25#Request for a New User Group|Request for a New User Group]], where he responded to the discussion with &quot;Please, can we stop this idiocy?&quot; to a discussion that had been up to that point as far as I can see, a perfect example of how a discussion should go down. What is more perplexing is that a previous comment of his from the same discussion was a perfectly reasonable opposition, with him explaining rationally why he did not want to see the group created. Further comments along those lines would of probably had even convinced me that the group was a bad idea, with me being the one to propose it! Another action of his in response to discussions about the group (from what I understand) in the [[UESPWiki:IRC|IRC]] led to him [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive 24#Kicking.2FBanning of Dwarfmp and Elliot|Banning Dwarfmp and Elliot]] from the channel. While I do not request that Krusty be blocked (though it wouldn't be hard to find a reason), I believe that a self-imposed break may be better. Krusty has already voiced his wish to do just this, and I just ask that he does not take part in any site discussions and only work on uncontroversial edits if he chooses to not take a break for the immediate future, I don't see it necessary to demand he does this unless he wishes to cause further drama in the community.&lt;/s&gt;<br /> #Being lenient on administrators and long time editors for inappropriate actions must cease. Throughout this site's history administrators are given much more leeway than any other group of users on the site. This is ridiculous. Administrators and long time editors should be held to a higher standard if anything, not a lower one. Making excuses for &quot;bad days&quot; and the ilk needs to come to an end. If anything, these editors should clearly be the ones to know when they need to log off for the night, or when they shouldn't take part in a conversation, or if they do, they must be as diligent as possible to remain getting upset over it. These past few months have been all the proof we will ever need for this consensus to ignore the wrong doings of certain users does not benefit the site in anyway whatsoever. It's not like this isn't the first time that this hasn't led to problems for the site, and I'm not entirely sure this was even the worse fallout due to this, but I do intend it to be the last if I can. The amount of damage done to our community due to this unofficial policy may very well be irreversible, but it does not need to be repeated.<br /> <br /> While some other users may have made inappropriate reactions over the last few days, I do not intend to bring those to light as I believe them to only be unfortunate reactions to the actions of others. This may very well be one of them for all I know. Just to make it clear, I do not wish ill will to any user for any recent action, I'm merely doing what I think is necessary here. Some seem to think that there is such a thing as an entirely happy, one-minded community. I don't think this is the case, nor has it ever been the case. Users have always disagreed on issues throughout this sites history, which is only appropriate for any community-driven site. No community can hope to be one-minded without becoming stagnant. However, divisions with thought between users does not need to be expressed with hostility, and it shouldn't. While discussions can be emotional, expressing your emotions rationally and logically without attacking the other sides is absolutely necessary for discussions to happen without people getting upset and leaving. <br /> <br /> While only one of these actions I can immediately make (blocking rpeh). I ask that you all agree that my other two recommended courses of action need to be made. <br /> <br /> For all of the users who have left these past few days, I do ask that you return when you wish to. I apologize that administrative action on my part wasn't taken earlier to keep these recent issues from getting so sullied. I erroneously thought that inaction was the best action. For those who wish to leave specifically because of my actions, I simply ask that you explain to me what I did wrong so I may rectify my actions. Finally, if the community feels it is I in the wrong here for what I'm about to do, I would like you to consider this my resignation from all duties relating to this site. I bear no hard feelings to any of you if you feel this is the case. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I do not disagree with your actions and I very much agree with them, especially the third proposal, which appears to be a reason for lots of drama around here lately and the cause for allowing tension to rise so high. I am glad that someone is taking action in some way, and it's been needed for a while now. Late action is better than inaction. Hopefully things will cool down now. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:26, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::We all know that this RH thing has been controversial, but there's really no reason to ragequit because of it. Any issues that the community has should be resolved by the community, and that can only happen when we have the whole community. People have different opinions about things, and suggesting that people's opinions classify them into &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever only invites trouble. I see so many people holding grudges against either Krusty or RH that they're unwilling to view any action taken by those users in an objective light.<br /> ::Now, maybe it's because I don't use IRC, but I never noticed either Krusty OR RH making edits that couldn't be justified as improvements, and I certainly never noticed any &quot;cliques&quot; forming. Either way, this is a site dedicated to cataloguing knowledge about TES. The reason we registered is because, as a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games. This site is OUR &quot;clique&quot;, as it were. The concept of cliques developing within cliques is one that disturbs me, because just by registering, we've all signed on to the only clique that needs to exist.<br /> ::In short, by ragequitting over something as insignificant as this, you're taking your own voice out of the equation; more importantly, you're taking your valuable contributions out of the equation. &quot;The wiki is going downhill&quot; is not a logical justification for quitting, because as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it. The only real way for the wiki to go downhill is for all of its most valued contributors to leave. If you really care about the quality of the wiki, you won't take the easy way out every time there's a setback. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 22:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I am adding Thuums comments here because I feel they are appropriate (He also needs an explaination from you AKB). There is definately a feeling among some users of cliques forming for whatever reason, and that does need looked at. I can't disagree with blocking rpeh in consideration of constant removal of subjects from this page, however care should be taken with everyone else. Feelings are running high at this time and consideration is due before taking further action. I joined after this happened and the fact it is still running shows how much people care about this, but a line needs to be drawn, we need to move on from this and forget about it, things happened, who gives a sh*t, well we all do but its getting us nowhere, so for the good of us all we need to move on, give everyone else one chance, and breath. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do not endorse the comments of rpeh or Krusty in this instance; I disagreed with them on the underlying issue. But they had the right to speak their minds. I think blocking rpeh was wrong; all he did was express an opinion you disagree with. His comments regarding Robin were very harsh, but were they personal? They were tailored to RH's conduct and performance on the site, and anyone who accepts a nomination has to be open to hearing some criticism. I don't think pulling up non-profane comments from two months ago helps justify a three-month block for expressing his opinion on the merits of Robin as a candidate for adminship (and that was, after all, the subject). These aren't personal attacks, these are attacks some people are taking too personally. I think the number of people who changed their votes evidence that the opinions and arguments of rpeh and Krusty were persuasive to some people, and it seems to me that's what they were designed to do: persuade, not insult. De-adminning Krusty would be similarly inappropriate. I don't mean to be overly-dramatic, but in my opinion you are in the process of punishing them for dissenting. This isn't right. <br /> <br /> ::::And can we just stop for a moment and recognize this is all politics? Rpeh and Krusty's opposition to Robin has nothing to do with his skill or trustworthiness. They oppose him because they don't want him having a greater voice or be given deference in making site policy. And you, similarly, are now acting to reduce their voice and influence. The fact is, no one would make a rant like Krusty's rant against Robin unless they cared deeply about this wiki's future. Daveh should count his lucky stars to have an admin that cares that much. Rpeh has done enough for this wiki for his opinion to be worthy of some consideration, despite the (understandable) lack of substantive contributions recently. You've found yourself in this situation where their dedication has become an annoyance to you, so you want them marginalized. Well, things always go smoother when you stifle the complainers, but sometimes disagreement is healthy. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::At this point, I really can't make a point without repeating those of others; oh well: here's my two cents. Though I've been mostly silent, throughout most of the recent drama, I've been keeping up on most everything major on this site (particularly on the AN and CP), and due to my detached view of things, I feel that my view is a little more objective than those involved.<br /> :::::#Though in the past I've generally sided with rpeh (so as to not digress here, I more or less agree with Krusty's opinion on the matter). I feel that ES's actions were the beginning of the end for this wiki; the site has, for the few months since, been nothing but a place for outrageous accusations, which in turn get short and rude responses, and a site where two separate schools of thought battle for dominance (best illustrated by the arguments between Krusty and RH70). While I am not of a mind to think that there is a conspiracy on this site (nor do I think anyone thinks that; I honestly see no place where Krusty literally says that certain editors are conspiring to bring this wiki down), I do think that Krusty was referring to said schools of thought when he mentioned &quot;cliques&quot;. On the one side, you have people like myself and Krusty, who feel that rpeh's de-adminning was unnecessary and an overreaction to *off-site behavior*, and that this site has been seized with a peculiar fever of &quot;less is more&quot; (no offense Minor Edits xD); by that, I mean that people seem to think that small additions and patrolling are more important than quality control and running a detailed, consistent site. On the other hand, you have users such as RH70 (who I am actually just as fond of as I am of Krusty, rpeh, ME, Legoless, or AKB, though I don't know him quite as well) feel opposite. I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is better than anyone else's, however this is undoubtedly one of the roots of the tensions here on UESP. In that respect, I do not agree with Thuum of Reason: yes, Krusty has every reason to quit, and yes these recent events do imply a downhill spiral; that's my opinion, in any event. <br /> :::::#As for rpeh's blocking: a month ago I would have said no. However, his recent behavior and constant attacks on other users show that he does not deserve to remain as an editor on this site for the time being. Since he is unwilling to take time to cool off of his own accord, we have little choice but to force him to do so. However, I would also ask that users refrain from making attacks on the past of rpeh and users like him; this is one reason why they continue to harbor resentment towards users on this site. So please, just realize that it takes two (many more in this case) to tango.<br /> :::::#On the second count, however, I must disagree. I myself see no real reason to remove Krusty's admin rights; he is already taking a wikibreak, and aside from one (understandable) intrusion in a recent RfA voting session, he shows no signs of doing what rpeh has done.<br /> :::::#I couldn't agree more with this last section. Although I may seem sympathetic towards rpeh and Krusty, it is only because they are human, not because they are senior editors. It is their nature (as it is mine or that of, say, Elliot, who is another member I hold in high esteem despite his participation in drama past and present) to quickly become short with users when it comes to what we perceive as injustices or foolish moves. I just tend to walk away, which is why nobody notices (to my knowledge); that's not really possible when you're a senior editor like the aforementioned users. However, though I understand this, I extend no extra rights towards these users, nor do I wish to have any such rights extended to myself should I ever become regarded as a &quot;senior editor&quot;.<br /> :::::Since this basically outlines how I feel about the state of UESP at the moment, I think I'll go ahead and go back to my wikibreak (despite what my page says, I am on a break for the weekend as far as editing goes). Happy editing everyone!--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}{{ec}} Minor Edits has hit the nail on the head. I agree to everything he's said above. Especially about rpeh's so called personal attacks: they were harsh, but not personal or uncalled for per se; and also especially about Krusty's devotion to the site, and the politics.. everything! That doesn't mean you're WRONG, AKB, definitely no reason to resign! Also, regarding me being banned from the IRC was a reaction of Krusty's frustration with how he thought the wiki was going downhill. He admits that was a big mistake and has apologized, and as far as I'm concerned it never happened ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :{{ec}}x2- I refrained from adding any comments to the RfA after Krusty's post because I thought keeping silent was the only way I could help to minimize the drama. Still, I have a billion things I would like to say, and have now typed out and deleted so many of them that it's taken me over twenty minutes to write two sentences...&lt;p&gt; I think that AKB has summed up so much of what needs to be said in a very logical and rational manner, and I agree with him on many (but not all) points. Since I didn't become an active editor until just before Rpeh left, I can't say much in regard to blocking him based on past history, but I do agree that his most recent contributions have been disruptive. Perhaps a warning would be best? Then, one more disruptive contribution would result in a block. That seems fair to me. As for Krusty, I don't think removing any administrative rights is necessary or appropriate, especially given his self-imposed break. And the third proposal is spot on. There's no point in having policies, rules, or guidelines if they only apply to the masses. Though I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency AKB may be referring to, I agree with this one ''on principle'' completely. There's no reason not to have the same standards for everyone.&lt;p&gt; There are a couple of Thuum's comments which really stick out to me: ''As a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games... as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it.'' I have grown to love this site and its community, and while people will always have differences in opinion, I believe we can find a way to continue improving both the site and our interactions with one another. This should be fun and enjoyable, not tense, stressful, or drama-ridden. I do hope that anyone who has left in frustration over recent drama decides to return soon; it disappoints me to see them go, and think having them around can only benefit the site and its community. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}}x3-To reply to Kalis, it's small additions and patrolling versus quality control and consistency? Is that what this battle is all about? I don't know, but for the record, I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive, nor do I think one is more important than the other. It seems to me it's more about personality conflicts making people lose perspective on why we're here. <br /> <br /> ::Here's my polestar: this should be the best, and preferably only, TES wiki around. I don't see any reason for another TES wiki to exist, and time people spend editing such sites is better spent here. To achieve total market capitalization, you fundamentally need numbers. Great numbers of editors brings great diversity of skills. Diversity allows for specialization. Specialization allows for maximized opportunity cost, meaning we get greater returns for the amount of time editors invest in this wiki over others. That maximized return on editors' time naturally produces a better product, and a better product means greater and greater popularity. Growth is readers brings growth in editors and the wiki just keeps refining itself. But it begins with numbers, and to grow and maintain your ranks, you can't sweat the small stuff. I feel that should be a formal policy itself, or perhaps just a corollary to the etiquette policy: &quot;don't sweat the small stuff&quot;. You people can antagonize each other over petty garbage until the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards, or you can be tolerant, and allow each other to make the wiki better in whatever ways you each can. Since I still think that's what rpeh and Krusty want to do, make the wiki better, I continue to support them. Making sure the UESP remains a big tent is the only way for it to reach its full potential. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::ABCface managed to say exactly what I was miserably failing to articulate. Blocking rpeh would be a rash move that, although justifiable, would do little more than strain the website even more. People are still peeved that he was de-adminned, and blocking him would only aggravate them more and prove little. De-adminning Krusty is also a terrible idea, which although certainly justifiable would also only harm the website even further. The last thing we need to do is take a hammer to the wiki at a time that it's so fragile.&lt;p&gt;As for the last proposal, I agree with it ''in principle'', but as ABCface said there's no reason ''not'' to have the same standards for everyone. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} People ''seriously'' need to stop defending rpeh. It is absolute insanity that people continue to... no. I'm going to call people out by name, because it needs to stop. [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], AKB didn't block rpeh because &quot;all he did was express an opinion [he] disagree[s] with&quot;. Rpeh made '''blatant''' personal attacks. The links provided by AKB are just a ''few'' of the disgusting remarks rpeh has made to other user around here. [[user:Alphabetface|Alphabetface]], we have given rpeh chance after chance after chance. Any other user would have been given the boot a long time ago. This is ''exactly'' what AKB means by providing experienced users with a different standard. [[user:Jak Atackka|Jak Atackka]], decision about retaining the integrity of the wiki shouldn't be based on &quot;who will this piss off&quot;. If a user has been poison to the wiki, then that poison must be removed. Plain and simple. A hammer is needed, because nothing will change without it.<br /> <br /> Even if you don't believe rpeh should be blocked for making personal attacks, he should be blocked for using a meatpuppet in the administration vote. He's already used a sockpuppet before, so why this was ignored is beyond my comprehension.<br /> <br /> Now, AKB, I absolutely agree with every action you have taken and suggested. [[user:Krusty|Krusty's]] continued attacks towards new user and user who happen to focus on edits other than content edits are problematic. His actions are not that of an administrator. I had a person who had never been on the wiki, and his comments shocked the person. They even wondered why they had any authority at all. Now, that's essentially hearsay, but I felt it necessary to mention. <br /> <br /> The leniency towards experienced editors does indeed need to stop, even towards myself (although I believe I get the leniency less than other edits, such as rpeh and Krusty). Users should not be able to buy their way out of indiscretion with an edit count. <br /> <br /> Again, AKB, I thank you for decisiveness with this issue. It was definitely needed. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :{{ec}}I'll do my best to reply to everyone here in opposition to my actions and call for action. If I miss any points, I apologize<br /> <br /> :First to Silencer, there are no &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever you want to call them. There is nothing to suggest that there is besides a few accusations without evidence backing them. To be crass, this topic in itself is rather ridiculous. Who the hell would create a conspiracy around taking over the volunteer positions of a gaming site? I would not assume that there is any sort of unofficial organization acting unilaterally on the site. As I do not count current evidence as being conclusive, if anyone has more proof, please feel free to contact me privately to avoid a derail of current discussion.<br /> <br /> :Second to Minor Edits. All users can speak their mind, as long as they follow etiquette. Creating a hostile environment for users does not benefit any line of thought. They were indeed in violation of site etiquette as I interpreted them. Even if the points in question needed to be said for their opposition to count (and they did not, if they simply claimed that his actions when it came to patrolling and user relations were outside their standards, their would of been no issue), there were much less volatile ways to say them. Unless I have a much poorer grasp on the English language than previously believed, I don't see how I interpreted their comments incorrectly. I also wish to state that I hold a deep respect for both rpeh and Krusty, and even consider them to have been mentors to me in times of need. Finally, I wish to point out that I did not participate in Robin's RFA, the IRC (at all), rpeh's de-adminning, or the Request for a New Group shortly after starting it.<br /> <br /> :Third to Kalis Agea, I don't really consider myself to be of a similar line of thought as Robin when it comes to editing. I mainly add content, at least those are the edits I make that I care about. I would also add that I agree that attacking rpeh is inappropriate, as it is for literally anyone on the site to to do to anyone. I, however, can't find myself wishing to allow Krusty to remain an admin. He is a distinguished editor who has helped me more than I think I am capable of admitting without giving him credit for most of my NPC work. However, I don't see how allowing him to remain an admin helps us. He is human and prone to mistakes just as much as any of us are, but it's not like what we write is revealed in real-time. We have time to temper our reactions. If a user doesn't take the time to do that, especially for major posts, they are likely to make mistakes or say some really harmful things. Krusty did this, partially inspiring some users to leave. He has made a lot of errors recently when it comes to policy and user relations. Removing administrative rights will surely help cool down in the end. Ultimately, the option to become an admin again if the right is removed is still available. For now, he should not have the rights.<br /> <br /> :Fourth to Dwarf, I agree that Krusty is dedicated to the site. Dedication doesn't make one immune from making mistakes, even if they are out of love. As for him caring for site politics, what are these? We have ****ing politics? What the hell??? I thought we were just a bunch of fans of a game series creating a collaborative guide on it, not freaking politicians. If anyone has ever made a move for &quot;political&quot; reasons, then they don't get the purpose of the site, at least from what I've seen of it. Also, I only intend to resign if my third recommended course of action isn't met, which basically requires the other two to happen, I admit. I don't believe I can administrate this site if everyone gets into a frenzy over &quot;He said, she said, you can interpret this action or what this person said to mean this&quot; every few months. Especially when the current consensus suggests just not making any definitive actions to stop it.<br /> <br /> :Onto ABCface, lenience will not resolve these issues. The issues leading up to this were met with lenience, and we all saw what that lead to. Further leniency will only lead to continued problems.<br /> <br /> :Next onto Minor Edits second reply, not sweating the small stuff is what lead to these major problems. I don't see how you can consider them to be anything else when administrators are walking out. The best way to deal with the recent problems are the actions I suggested.<br /> <br /> :Finally to reply to Jak Attacka. Why in the same paragraph that you state that being lenient would be beneficial in this situation do you say that my call for an end to leniency is correct? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I'm interpreting what you wrote wrong, please correct me if I don't understand. Blocking rpeh doesn't strain the site in any way besides an emotional one that I admit I don't understand, he hasn't contributed positively for months. And I don't see how Krusty can't continue to edit without administrative rights for the foreseeable future. Administrative tools aren't a right, they are a privilege given to people we don't think will mess up with them (that badly). --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::My point on leniency was apparently not made clear. What I was trying to get across is that leniency is not tolerable. The same standards should apply to everyone-- whether they are admins or not. When I said &quot;on principle&quot; I didn't mean that I don't agree. I meant that I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency you were referring to. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}} In reply to elliot's comment about blocking for meatpuppetry, I'm not sure using a meatpuppet is a blockable offense. If it was a sockpuppet, sure, but a meatpuppet implies that rpeh or Krusty contacted ''someone else'' specifically to have them vote on the matter. That's just Electioneering 101. The meatpuppet's vote counts as much as the next person's, the only difference is that a suspected meatpuppet's opinion is far less persuasive to others, and may repulse some voters who would have otherwise voted in the same way as the meatpuppet. The punishment already fits the &quot;crime&quot;.<br /> <br /> :::I support AKB's third proposal, I just think he and I have different understandings on what constitutes leniency for long-time contributors and how to interpret the etiquette policy. I don't think I've extended long-term contributors any inherent privilege not available to a new editor. I think that's because I'm more lenient towards everyone in general- whether their anons, new accounts, or admins - compared to others. I think a big reason for this difference is that I never stop assuming good faith until I absolutely have to, regardless of how long someone has been contributing or what position they may have on the site. I extend to rpeh and Krusty the same courtesy I would give to any new user and presume that they are not here to cause trouble, but rather to make the wiki better. Re-reading their comments on Robin's RfA, I think the only way to conclude that either of them made a personal attack is by assuming that they made the appearance for malicious reasons, and not because they had legitimate reasons to oppose making Robin an admin. So in short, that's what I meant when I said don't sweat the small stuff: the assuming good faith policy should act as a guide for how to interpret and construe other policies. So, if there's any reasonable doubt about whether a person's comments violated the etiquette policy, for example, then the doubt should be decided in that person's favor. When it comes to the actions of rpeh and Krusty, I sincerely doubt that they have violated basic etiquette. Others have found what they had to say offensive, and thus imputed them with the intention to be disruptive and offensive. I don't think that's fair, so I won't hold to it. <br /> <br /> :::You're aces, AKB; I didn't mean to imply you were executing some kind of inappropriate vendetta against them. I assume good faith, and I guess I presume others will assume it in my words. And I hope that no one is assigning anger to me; I don't hold grudges, and I take pride in having a disagreement and resolving it amicably whether my opinion was heeded or not. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} You're right, my last point wasn't clear at all. I'm still trying to make sense of this entire situation. Just forget what I said there - I'm still undecided on the issue. I certainly agree with it in principle, but in action I always give a fair bit of leeway to our more experienced editors. Part of this is that as the representatives of our website, they have much more attention focused on them, and their mistakes are amplified. Part of it is blatant rationalization on my part - I'm still trying to figure out how much. That's a topic I've given a lot of thought yet still don't have a clear idea on. Looks like this'll be a busy weekend.&lt;p&gt;The way I see it, there are two different approaches to this obvious problem. The first is to approach the policy aspect of it. An editor abuses their privileges, they get punished. It does not matter who did it, they are all treated equally. The other approach is the personal aspect. This action will cause much more harm than good, so it shouldn't be done. Blindly applying policy versus completely ignoring it and allow our editors to do whatever they want because they have a high edit count. Both arguments are valid. I can't say which one I support, because frankly I don't know.&lt;p&gt;That's the abstract side of this whole debate. The literal side is how we treat the abuses themselves. I strongly dislike what rpeh did, and it is quite frankly disgraceful. I did defend him before, but after discussing it with [[User:Elliot|Elliot]] I've since changed my stance on the issue. I'm not sure about blocking him. On the one hand, I strongly dislike the idea of blocking people (besides IPs and spammers) because it'll most likely turn them off the wiki for good, but on the other hand I think rpeh is gone for good anyways. I am also unsure about Krusty's de-adminship, but I'm leaning towards opposing it (meaning he should stay admin).&lt;p&gt;If you are looking for my stance on the issues, they are currently undecided, undecided, and undecided. This discussion has given me food for thought, and I'm going to have to mull over this a while before I have anything meaningful to say. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break===<br /> <br /> {{od}} [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], please do not continue to ignore such behavior. Your type of thinking is precisely what has allowed this to go on for so long. Regardless, [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]] is a serious offense. <br /> :''Sock puppetry policy defines &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; as the recruitment of new editors to Wikipedia for the purpose of influencing or editing on a Wikipedia matter. This is forbidden, and new accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating. ([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Banning_policy|source]])<br /> Whenever we don't have an established policy, we defer to Wikipedia. Please also see the [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Agapetos_angel|Arbitration decision]] that banned a user and her meatpuppets. So yes, Minor Edits, it is blockable (see [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users|Wikipedia:List of banned users]] and just search for the term ''meatpuppet''). I don't know how I can make this point any clearer. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 07:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Alright, let's see if I can't pull of making a coherent post after all. :)<br /> ::Firstly, in response to Minor Edits, perhaps I should rephrase. The point I was trying to make (rather unsuccessfully) is that the idea of a &quot;clique&quot; and a schism of sorts is not so much literal (i.e. there is no conspiracy to take over the wiki on the part of any editor(s); I didn't get that message from Krusty's posts at all, as some others did). In no way am I trying to say that editing preferences are destroying the wiki (if only it were that simple!). Rather, I am saying that there are certain editors who already have something against a certain editor or other groups of editors (I hope that makes sense). These editors will find anything to use as ammunition against others, even something so trivial as editing preferences. I was merely supplying an example of the many-layered complexity that has become the drama of UESP.<br /> ::Now, as for AKB: I suppose I see your point; I also see that you are quite determined to see this through. I don't have any real reason to oppose point #2 other than that I don't yet known how Krusty feels about this. Once that is known, I will be able to say &quot;yea&quot; or &quot;nay&quot;, should this come to a vote.<br /> ::My main point in the first place was simply that the past few months have seen an unfortunate and dramatic turn of events with which I am highly dissatisfied; so much so that I have refrained from posting responses longer than a small paragraph on such issues. Even now, I see no reason to continue actively editing on such a site, especially when I have very little left to actually contribute to it time-wise. At the same time, I feel that I am most likely just overreacting and should just leave the site completely and come back with a level head; a fresh start, as it were. And for my part I intend to do so.--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::As much as I hate to admit it, rpeh has been making too many personal attacks lately. I don't have to like it, but if he can't be constructive, blocking him might be the best solution. That's the only thing I'll voice a definite stance on, as I'm still not sure where I stand on #2. I will say that before doing anything rash that will invite more trouble, we should take everything into consideration. As Krusty is always saying, we need to think of the consequences our actions will most likely have. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 11:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::AKB, I agree that there's leniency that causes a lot of trouble. And you're right about that it should stop. As Kalis Agea said, before we debate whether Krusty should be de-admined for a while or not, I'd rather hear what he has to say about it (because if he simply agrees with stepping down for a while, then why argue). As for rpeh's block, Elliot raised a good point regarding the meat-puppetry. I have absolutely no qualms with that block if the reason is changed to meat-puppetry. Seeing as you said it was simple recruitment, AKB, that just proves there's politics on the site. I agree that the whole politics business is bad for the wiki, because in the end, we're all headed towards the same goal: improving the wiki ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::I can't agree with either of points 1 or 2, i'll comment on the 'clique' as well. I wouldn't there has ever, or will ever, be a conspiracy. What I meant is: that whilst the two groups oppose each other they are obviously not putting as much thought into editing as they could be. Blocking rpeh can only possibly drive him away further, so thats an editor who has made 78944 edits being discarded for a further amount when he could be contributed positively to UESP? (Thats not counting the 81516 edits his bot made under his control). That just seems odd. Removing Krustys Admin rights in my opinion gets even odder, but I don't have much other than his contributions in either of there defenses. On the subject of coming back to vote, they both obviously felt the need to voice there opinions on the matter. I think the leniency levels work... to a degree. A bit more strict yes, (3 strikes and your out rule in regards to warnings?), but not by loads I don't think. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 14:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::[[user:Kiz|Kiz]], can you please tell me what makes up a personal attack in your mind? Calling a user a &quot;total disgrace&quot;? Calling a user a &quot;troll&quot;? I mean, please let me know, because apparently, rpeh can say whatever he wants, and you wouldn't care because you are afraid of &quot;driving him away&quot;. Did you miss the entire point of holding a double standard for experienced editors? '''Your thinking is part of the problem.''' And you also said that rpeh could have contributed positively... sorry, but from what rpeh has told me, he has no intentions of coming back, which makes his actions ''that'' much more worse. I could understand if this were his first time attacking another user, but it's not. This is just an endless cycle perpetuated by users who let him get away with it. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 17:20, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}If we're starting on personal attacks elliot, don't bother, you called me a troll in IRC which is no better at all, by your standards that makes you as bad as rpeh. I purposely avoided commenting on personal attacks, because I have no further comments on the matter. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 17:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I'd like to point out that saying I called him a troll is a complete fabrication. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :After some thought, I have to agree with [[user:Elliot|Elliot]] here and call for rpeh to be banned. I strongly dislike banning people, but rpeh has clearly violated the rules (with both [[User:RobinHood70/RfA|personal attacks]] and [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]]) and clearly has nothing constructive to add to this wiki. He can't hide behind his edit count, and people need to stop blinding themselves with his contributions. Rpeh needs to be banned. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I've taken some time to think about this, and in light of recent events, I feel it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment about what actions should be taken in regards to rpeh and Krusty, though I will say that I don't think it's fair to take any action ''in absentia''. Instead, I'll focus on point three, as well as some of the ensuing discussion.<br /> <br /> ::As anyone who's ever been in a position of authority knows, there's a balance between ignoring the rules and enforcing them. Different people tend towards different sides of that. On a wiki, when it goes too far towards ignoring, people often have a lot of fun at first, but many quickly become frustrated with the unfair application or non-application of rules and they stop editing. After all, why have rules if nobody pays attention to them - it only lets bullies come to the fore. When it goes too far towards enforcing, people often like the structure and fairness at first, but tend to stop editing when it becomes an authoritarian regime. Similarly to the above, why edit when the slightest misstep gets you a warning or a block?<br /> <br /> ::I think it's fair to say that in more recent times, the wiki has tended more towards the ignoring side than the enforcing side. I would go so far as to say that it has swung too far to that side, and yes, some people are feeling unfairly treated. Obviously, AKB tends more towards enforcement than we've had in recent times, and I think that can only be a good thing, since it will undoubtedly be balanced out by those who take a less strict view of things.<br /> <br /> ::In regards to our various policies, specifically those around personal attacks, I'd like to point out that personal attacks aren't the be all and end all. The [[Project:Etiquette|Etiquette]] policy also includes statements like the very first bullet point, and bolded no less, &quot;Be patient and courteous&quot;. It also includes points about being polite and assuming good faith. I agree with AKB that any long-term editor, regardless of what rights they may have, should be held to ''at least'' the same standards as others. If you've been a regular editor around a wiki for more than a few months, it should be pretty clear how they're supposed to work. If you've been around for a few years, these sorts of things should come naturally. Sure, we all have times when our temper gets the best of us or something just plain comes out wrong, but we apologize for them and move on. It's when the apologies aren't sincere or are absent altogether, particularly when someone points out the issue, that the etiquette policy and others really need to be brought into play in my mind.<br /> <br /> ::Kiz brings up a great idea with the three strikes rule, or some variant of it. This sort of thing has been used very successfully in forums for ages, and even Wikipedia has a variation of it with their [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject_user_warnings/Usage_and_layout#Levels|user-warning levels]]. I think if we combine that with a balance of [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Template the regulars|Template the regulars]] (for warnings about etiquette and similar issues) and [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars|Don't template the regulars]] (for reminders about previewing, signatures, etc.), we'll have a workable system that's fair to everyone. There would need to be some method of having warnings removed over time, but specifics of any such system might be best for a new topic. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break 2===<br /> The first thing I thought when coming across this section was: &quot;Wow! Steady on guys!&quot; I've only just made sense of this flood of drama given my prolonged absence and I was surprised to find so many competent editors, most of which I held in high esteem when I was active, are literally at their throats. This obviously can't be constructive. I have problems with the first two issues proposed by AKB. I have thought a lot about them and have had private talks with both users involved, who I'm not afraid to consider friends. I've already given my opinion on rpeh's block, so I'll tackle the second point before explaining why I'm 100% behind the third point.<br /> <br /> Krusty's de-admin request is not a good idea, as many above have pointed out. Most importantly, Krusty has already decided to take a wiki break and cool-off. Yes, Krusty did return to oppose RH's RfA (as if that were a reason to be stripped of adminship!) and to be honest, whether you agree with his points or not, he did bring forth the fact that there was a rift in the community and people have acted on it largely thanks to his post. His words for a certain group of users certainly wasn't loving but there is no denying that there are some editors, and there have been for as long as I've been here, who see themselves as the paladins of righteousness; always ready to jump when they perceive &quot;abuses of power&quot; and conveniently forget their own precedents (and in case anyone is wondering, [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#De-Patrollership_Request_for_Elliot I'm talking about Elliot]). Krusty's &quot;idiocy&quot; comment and his blocking of Dwarfmp on IRC stand out as his worst actions as administrator, but if we look at the bigger picture of his adminship it is clear these are the exception, not the rule. Everyone makes mistakes and this was at a time of great stress. Removing his administrator rights now would be the worse course of action.<br /> <br /> The third point, which I believe should have been the thrust of this post but was inevitably overtaken by the other two, is a very, very good point. Although personally I don't believe I have ever been given any sort of special treatment, it is true, as RH pointed out, that there is a history of this sort of behaviour on UESP. Cracking down on that is everyone's interest. It hard to write up policy for this sort of thing. What we need is for everyone of us to say: let's draw the line here and now - we won't tolerate privileged treatment anymore. I know this may seem to contradict my opposition to Krusty's de-admining but if we decide to crack down on this behaviour we must do it for all who have benefitted from it in the past, not just the convenient recent targets. Because this isn't feasible, let's start off with a blank sheet, but let's be serious. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Nice to see you come back. If you feel like trying to bring me down in order to invalidate my opinion, then you need to go to another wiki. I know what I've done, and I know what I've ''not'' done. So, if you are going to bring up a '''two year old discussion''' in order to disparage me, then let's bring up ''every single thing that rpeh has done wrong'' (remember, this is a discussion about '''rpeh'''). That's sarcasm, by the way. We are discussing things that have happened in '''2012''', not '''2009''', so if you could keep your points relevant, that would be a great help. Thanks. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:05, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Good to see you back from you wiki-break too Elliot! Two days have been long and hard without you! (That's also sarcasm by the way.) The reason why I mentioned you should be obvious. I don't like to make claims without supporting them with facts (I couldn't care less when they occurred) and I wanted to avoid people thinking I was accusing them. Also, please stop victimising yourself. That link isn't even close to being the central point of my post, but rather an aside to avoid confusion. It isn't always all about you Elliot (you're honestly not ''that'' important) and, despite your claims to the contrary, this conversation isn't '''just''' about rpeh. It's actually about a lot of things, which include rpeh's block. If you stepped back and stopped your hatred of rpeh guiding your every action, you'd see all this by yourself. Really do try to do this: I'm ''actually'' off to study for my finals so I won't be here to explain it to you again. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::I never did say it was about me. But I don't really hate rpeh, it's more of hating how people give him special treatment, including yourself. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Page Protection ==<br /> <br /> I've been doing some more bot work tonight, and I've come up with a list of pages where the expected page protection doesn't match the actual page protection. You can see the list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]. (Sorry for the reverse page sorting...change in logic that I forgot to fix before the bot ran.) Mostly these are archives, but I've added checking for our Javascript pages, site financial data, and I'd like to suggest that we also protect the various [[UESP:Messages]] subpages as well. Now, I have a few questions:<br /> <br /> # Do the pages in the list all look like reasonable pages to add the suggested level of protection to?<br /> # Are there any others the bot should be checking?<br /> # Once we're happy with what the bot feels needs to be changed, do we want it to go ahead and change them all or would an Admin rather do it?<br /> <br /> A little background on that last question: when we originally granted bots permission to change page rights, rpeh was an Admin and he was the only one actively running a bot at the time, so it was of little consequence. In my case, the bot's rights exceed my own, so I thought I should check that nobody had concerns with that. The bot can be made to either produce a report or actually change the rights at the flick of a switch, so it's not a big concern for me either way. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I personally don't have any objections to it, but I'm not an admin. You only suggested semi-protecting [[Daggerfall talk:Vampirism/Archive]] - you should also archive [[Daggerfall:Vampirism/Archive]]. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::{{ec}} Please note that due to a design change in MediaWiki a while ago, some older protected pages aren't being reported as such. I'll ask Nephele or Dave to run the maintenance script that updates this and regenerate the list shortly.<br /> <br /> ::Jak: Currently, the bot isn't looking for archives in non-talk pages other than UESPWiki. It's not hard to do, but I'm concerned that it would probably get a lot of false hits as a result. Once I've gotten Neph or Dave to run the maintenance script, I'll see what the bot would &quot;want&quot; to protect if I included all namespaces. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::'''For the Admin who has too much time on their hands:''' ;-) can I get someone to unprotect and reprotect the following list of pages? From what I've been able to gather Googling around a bit, they were all protected a long time ago when we were on an older version of MediaWiki and the internal protection coding has changed since then. The maintenance script failed to fix the problem for whatever reason, so a number of pages aren't showing as protected in some lists, but they're fine in others. In addition to the obvious issues it's causing with my bot getting confused (which is a minor concern that I can work around), it's possible that the protection may not propagate properly whenever we do future MediaWiki upgrades and we might not even be aware we'd lost it, which is a much bigger concern. Anyway, here's the list of the pages the bot identified &lt;s&gt;initially, though there could well be others that the bot wasn't designed to pick up on. I'll need to do some programming, and checking will take a bit of time in and of itself, but I'll add to this list if I find more.&lt;/s&gt; Unless Daveh is planning to upgrade the wiki in the next few days and surprise everyone, there's no big hurry. :)<br /> <br /> {{Showhide/Start|Oddly Protected Pages}}<br /> :::* [[:File:Mainpage-logo.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Somerights.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:UespPages.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Wiki.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:Index.php]] (full) - note: this one can be hard to get to due to the redirect to the main page. Use [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Index.php&amp;redirect=no this] to get there<br /> :::* [[:Main Page]] (full)<br /> :::* [[General:Links]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] (full)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 2]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Battlehorn Castle (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Deepscorn Hollow (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Frostcrag Spire (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Mazoga the Orc (quest)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Umbra (person)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Glitches]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Oblivion]] (Edit=semi Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Shadowkey:Shadowkey]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Muffle (effect)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Thieves Guild (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:About]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Photo&quot; Category]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Special&quot; tips?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP IRC Meeting (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP The main namespace, and its use (or lack thereof)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP Why Put Quests Under &quot;Quests&quot; Article?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/Other Subpages (And why we need them)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Bad Addresses]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyright and Ownership]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyrights]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (3)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tamriel:Atronach (Daedra)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:History]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:IRC]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Oblivion Places Redesign Project]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Costs]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Account Balance]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/April 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/August 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/December 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/July 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/June 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/May 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/November 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/October 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/September 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Spam Blacklist]] (full)<br /> :::* [[User talk:Rpeh]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[User:ShakenMike]] (full)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> :::&lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::I've unprotected all (but 1, read additional info below) of those pages and reprotected them accordingly, all with infinite expire time (assuming that was necessary for all). This one: [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], didn't have a protection tab, Krusty says that's up to Nephele or Daveh to do, so I did all I could :) ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:55, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::That's great, Dwarfmp! I don't think the Common.css file is all that big of a concern, since the entire MediaWiki space is limited to editing by Admins only in the first place, so even if it loses its protection at some point in the distant future, not much will actually have changed.<br /> <br /> :::::Now, does anybody have any concerns with the bot protecting the various archive pages list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]? I've got a tiny bit more code tweaking to do, so rather than drag this out too long, since I know everyone's busy, I'll go ahead and protect the pages appropriately unless someone objects within the next 48 hours. My thinking is that we could easily have created an Admin Bots group if we'd been all that concerned about it, but we didn't, so it seems reasonable to me that if we gave all bots the right to protect/unprotect pages, that we should feel free to do exactly that, especially since I'm duplicating the exact task they were given that right for in the first place. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Rpeh's Block Appeal ==<br /> <br /> Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all editors are entitled to an appeal on the Administrator Noticeboard, so at Rpeh's request, I am starting a thread here, and posting what has been said on his [[User talk:Rpeh|talk page]], so that everyone can see it, and he can provide his argument for appealing the block. I am aware that some may not see me as the guy to start an appeal for him, but we have to play this by the books. [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Please specify the alleged &quot;personal attacks&quot; and &quot;multiple disruptions&quot;, and please highlight the warnings given about them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I would first like to start off by saying that no formal warning has been given about this. However, as UESP [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] states: ''&quot;Although this three-step process [Warn, Temporary Block, Permanent Block] is the normal procedure, administrators have the authority to bypass one or more steps at their discretion.&quot;'' The policy page goes onto include personal attacks as a reason to not just bypass a warning, but can be grounds for an immediate permanent block. I made note to remove any mention of a warning from this block due to this. <br /> <br /> ::As for your request for examples, you have [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 claimed that Daveh is sycophant and incompetent], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 left a sarcastic reply to a user during a previous request to have you blocked], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 claimed that RH70 was sucking up to other users] (according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F Wikipedia Policy], accusing a user of a certain kind of behavior without evidence to back it up is considered a personal attack), and you were disruptive when a user's eligibility in a discussion was called into question due to perceived signs of meat puppetry [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935811 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 here]. <br /> <br /> ::I apologize that I don't have time to go into detail with anything but I'm rather busy IRL at the moment. I may be disposed to reply swiftly to any other message, but I will try to get back to you. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Quite simply, none of those are personal attacks. At a pinch, the comment to Daveh was on the line, but it took place over two months ago so handing out a three month block now is a clear violation of natural justice. As for my comments on RH, Krusty had already provided the evidence. I was simply adding my voice in support. No justification for this block, so please undo ASAP. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do have to add that, and I quote: &quot;A pattern of hostility reduces the likelihood of the community assuming good faith, and can be considered [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing disruptive editing].&quot; Considering your inactivity on the site, it is likely these posts were meant to harm the wiki.<br /> <br /> ::::If that doesn't convince you this block was justified, I'll add [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935490 this link], a vote which is suspected to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry meat puppetry]. Since meat puppetry is as good as impossible to prove, it is up to an administrator to act as a judge. Considering the user in question has made a total of only 4 [[Special:Contributions/Haysie|contributions]], of which 2 are edits to their userpage, and the other 2 being the vote on the rfa, it is highly unlikely this person has sufficient knowledge to cast an actual vote. While it is not impossible for the user to have observed the wiki, the lack of previous votes since they subscribed leads one to believe they also lack the interest to vote. If you check their [[User:Haysie|userpage]], you can read the following line: ''&quot;I am a newbie to the Elder Scrolls world - having been introduced by Rob, one of the admins on this very portal.&quot;'' At the time this addition was made, you, '''Robert''', were an admin. This should provide enough evidence of you two being friends, which makes their vote (in which your argument was simply repeated) a mere &quot;back-up&quot; from a friend, which is prohibited ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 18:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I'm quite honestly astonished by the hypocrisy taking place on this site at the moment. I was de-adminned because I committed &quot;censorship&quot; by removing a totally unproductive discussion from the site. Now I'm blocked for standing up for my right to comment on an RfA and a user's right to cast a vote? Seriously???<br /> ::::: The entire premise behind this block is that nobody making the active users list deserves a right to vote. That is, quite simply, wrong. The reasons behind ''my'' block then move on to what ''another user'' has said on their user page! Seriously, people! Try putting forward this kind of &quot;evidence&quot; in a real court and see how far you get!<br /> ::::: I have made ''no'' personal attacks and committed ''no'' other blockable offence, yet was banned without warning. An unblock is the least that needs to be done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all users are entitled to an appeal on the AN. Is this to be considered and appeal, and shall I move this for you, Rpeh? [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I was wondering how long it would take. Yes, please. There's absolutely no justification for this block. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Absolutely not. Considering he still sees nothing wrong with meatpuppetry and his attacks on other editors, I feel compelled to ask for an admin to ''extend'' the block, rather than shorten it. I have made my comments in the [[#Actions to be Made|above section]], so there is not much else I can say on the matter. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I'm not going to comment too much on this because I don't have a lot of time on my hands. All I'll say is that if rpeh should be blocked at all, the only grounds that should be debated upon are the alleged meatpuppet. That's all. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::So how is it appropriate to ignore rpeh's attacks other users again? [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I support the block based on the links others have provided, and believe them to be attacks on individuals, indirectly or directly. Saying ''&quot;Unfortunately, you decided to go for &quot;Oh, good!&quot; and sycophancy instead of actual competence.&quot;'' may or may not have been insulting Daveh, but it most definitely insulted RH70 by calling him a sycophant and incompetent. ''&quot;As for the claim about competence: I've got a TESV map up and running. It works well, and I've played around with things like gamma correction and contrast so that it doesn't look too bad. Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;'' is an inappropriate insult to competence when something more like ''&quot;I've got a map up and running that looks pretty good, and I know you're not too great at maps, so I'm fairly confident in my competence.&quot;'' would have worked just fine. It's a minor difference, but that last line in his post--''&quot;Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;''--was completely unnecessary and rude. ([[Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying_incivility|Civility]] guidelines say that ''&quot;belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgmental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. &quot;that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen&quot;, &quot;snipped crap&quot;)&quot;'' counts as rudeness, and I view that statement as being judgmental in this manner.)<br /> <br /> :::::''&quot;His main input has been to spend hours splitting hairs and pushing his own idiosyncratic POV on policy debates while doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates, and sucking up to people he thinks will benefit his wiki career.&quot;'' On one hand, I can see how this is an evaluation, but on another, it's snide insults. If someone's messing with templates in a way you don't like, it can be changed or conversations can be had. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions on policy debates. Typos and other tiny edits are absolutely necessary towards the quality of the articles on this wiki. They may not be large edits, but one need not insult another's activities based on the amount of the page that is edited (''&quot;nothing but fixing typos&quot;'').<br /> <br /> :::::Calling RH70 a &quot;total disgrace&quot; for calling up a policy is something that absolutely does not assume good faith. It was a discussion of established wiki policies, and the insult was not necessary, along with saying that RH70 was ignoring policy despite him bringing one up. If it was not a misunderstanding on rpeh's part, then it seems more like needless aggression to me.<br /> <br /> :::::If I have misunderstood anything here, please point it out. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Okay, let's do this &quot;by the book&quot; then and examine all the examples of rpeh's conduct being used to support his block. First of all, rpeh never accused Daveh of sycophancy or incompetence. Rather, he accused Daveh of &quot;going for&quot; (i.e., supporting) sycophancy over competence. He confirmed this in the second comment AKB linked to, where he stated that he had previously accused Daveh of being &quot;subject to sycophancy&quot; (again, not calling Daveh a sycophant; the sycophant is the flatterer, and rpeh was saying Daveh was the person being influenced by flattery). I don't agree with rpeh's assessment, but it's a stretch to say he had no basis for thinking that way.<br /> <br /> ::::::The second comment AKB cites to is sarcastic, yes, but I think we're going down a very dangerous road when we start saying that ''sarcasm'' is a blockable offense. I believe utilizing sarcasm to drive a point home can be done at the discretion of every user here, rpeh included. As for the third comment about RH &quot;sucking up&quot; to people, rpeh incorporated by reference Krusty's reasoning, which mentioned several concrete situations where RH's conduct could be perceived that way. So it's false to say that rpeh accused RH of certain kinds of behavior with no evidence to back it up.<br /> <br /> ::::::There's something in the background of this discussion that I feel should be brought to the fore: some people seem to believe that making our jobs easier is the same as making the wiki better. It's not. It is wrong to assume that any &quot;disruption&quot; a person may cause is necessarily detrimental to the site. It may be easier for some to block rpeh or someone like him than to allow him or her their right to speak on the site concerning site matters. We wouldn't have to convince them, argue against them, or be challenged by them. However, it would not necessarily make the wiki better, and that's what the goal should be. Making our jobs easier is fine up and until we reach a matter where our jobs are ''supposed'' to be hard. People management is not easy, but it's not supposed to be, and simply silencing people for the sake of convenience is the coward's way out.<br /> <br /> ::::::Anyways, it's clear to me, at least, that the months-old comments AKB dredged up were only mentioned to buttress the weak foundation for this block, and really the only substantive reason was rpeh's opposition to RH's RfA and the suspicion of meatpuppetry. Allow me to reiterate: (1) Opposing someone in an RfA by expressing an opinion on the merits of the candidate for adminship is a valid form of participation and not a &quot;disruption&quot; to the site, (2) &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; is just a derogatory term for what is, essentially, an acceptable electioneering practice which doesn't justify a block, (3) the punishment for suspected meatpuppetry is that it is unpersuasive and repulsive to other voters, and that it may be discounted by Daveh, ''not'' the implementation of a block, and (4) blocking rpeh over likely misguided perceptions and prejudices rather than for actual violations of UESP's policies and standards is offensive to my conscience.<br /> <br /> ::::::In response to Vely, when you say rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment was &quot;needless&quot;, how do you define what was needed or not? The presumed goal was to dissuade others from voting for Robin, who already had a substantial number of votes in his favor (including my own). Hopes of achieving his goal must have looked bleak, and rpeh likely felt he needed to state his opinion as forcefully as he could to help turn the tide against Robin's nomination. Judging by the aftermath, he was correct in that assessment. And while &quot;total disgrace&quot; is hardly favorable, it's clearly rpeh's assessment of the merits of Robin as a candidate to be an admin, in the appropriate forum, and ''not'' a personal attack or grounds for a block. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}RH70 pointed out a policy with suspicions about Haysie--without definitively stating more than that suspicion--to which rpeh replied with a statement that RH70 was misusing policy. I don't see how a simple mention of a policy (with reasonable suspicion, as the only person we know Haysie knows on here is rpeh and there were only userpage edits before then) is grounds for being called a disgrace. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 23:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :I'm genuinely hurt by what I'm seeing. I respected rpeh as an editor, and I don't deny that I don't approve of how he was de-admin'd, but if he shouldn't have been then, he definitely should be now. Regardless of what happened, there is no reason to speak so harshly with so little provocation on so many occasions. I'm equally disappointed to be seeing so many editors I used to have so much respect for using semantics as a way to justify needlessly provocative comments. Let me repeat: I &lt;i&gt;supported&lt;/i&gt; rpeh, and even I can't deny that his posts are inflammatory. As Kenny said, we cannot continue to overlook infractions because of a history of good contributions. Hell, if Daveh himself started breaking the community rules and being rude like this while never contributing anything worthwhile, I doubt many people would disagree with a demand for his resignation. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 23:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}} To Velyanthe, I don't see how, either; Rpeh's explanation was not perfectly clear (again, not a blockable offense). I imagine it went something like this: he understood the wiki policies to mean that all users are presumptively welcome to participate. He also must have thought, rightly or wrongly, that the users were preparing to categorically discount Haysie's vote and that there was nothing in the policies which allowed for this. The most relevant sentence, &quot;Certain comments may be discounted if there are suspicions of fraud; these may be the contributions of very new editors, sockpuppets, and meatpuppets&quot;, does not specify ''who'' may discount a vote or what measure of certainty is needed. So he either thought that this was guidance for individuals, that they may consider a vote so unpersuasive so as to not count it at all, or else that it allowed a vote to be categorically discounted by an administrator at the final tally, but doing so required hard evidence, not circumstantial evidence like what we have here. Just to start, it's certainly possible that Haysie makes contributions without signing in, it's also possible that he or she made the account with a good-faith intent to participate, and without any agreement in place to support rpeh's endeavors. While allowing for these possibilities might mean that discounting a vote for meatpuppetry would rarely happen short of a confession, that's not such a bad thing. It doesn't stop individuals from concluding that someone is a meatpuppet. Like I was saying before, that's the real, organic punishment for suspected meatpuppetry. A block is disproportionate and ultimately unnecessary.<br /> <br /> ::Regardless, it's clear by what rpeh said that he thought that the basic interest this wiki has in promoting participation is important enough that in this case the mere ''suspicion'' of Haysie as a sockpuppet or an inappropriate meatpuppet was not enough to officially discount her vote. Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:18, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}}The one counting the votes would have been Daveh, and guidelines say that a vote can be discounted if meatpuppetry is suspected. While we couldn't prove or disprove it, there was some evidence for it. I also see nothing wrong with suspicions. We could even ask Haysie herself.<br /> <br /> :::I agree that the single incident would not be a blockable offence, but the multiple incidents that took place in February and the vote are all somewhat similar. If not insults, they are rather close to them, and have been far too frequent to be simple accident. I do not know if it directly fits into the [[wikipedia:disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] category, but it seems to follow the point of ''&quot;Their edits often avoid gross breaches of civility, by refraining from personal attacks, while still interfering with civil and collaborative editing meant to improve the article.&quot;'' <br /> <br /> :::What do you mean by ''&quot;Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place.&quot;''? What is the &quot;it&quot;? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, rpeh's thesis that nothing disqualified Haysie from voting remains true; Haysie had the right to vote, even if Daveh has the right to discount it. So rpeh becomes guilty of throwing up a straw man (again, not a blockable offense, just a subversive method of argument that may not have been intentional). Rpeh is abrasive with people when he thinks he's right and he's being ignored. I don't think he will deny that, or even wants to. But he's certainly not interfering with my ability to be civil or collaborate.<br /> <br /> ::::He's not swearing, he's not spamming, all of his comments, while apparently unpopular, have been related to the site and placed appropriately, and all there is against him in terms of fraud is ungrounded suspicions. That's just the simple state of affairs right now. Do you think the person I just described should be blocked? <br /> <br /> ::::For that last sentence, I meant that whether we agree with the reasoning of rpeh as I had proposed it, it's enough that he was positively contributing (as ironic as that terminology may seem). The &quot;it&quot; was his reasoning. We don't have to agree, for example, with rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment, but in this context, I believe it's necessary to conclude that he had no basis for coming to that conclusion to hold him accountable with a block for expressing such an opinion. I believe he had some substantive, legitimate reason(s) for his opinion, poorly explained and possibly misconstrued as they may have been, so it would be wrong to silence him for uttering that opinion. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} Calling people sycophants and disgraces for attempts to contribute and mentions of site policy, calling someone incompetent simply because he has done more on maps, and just about calling someone's edits useless and perhaps detrimental (''&quot;doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates&quot;'') doesn't sound like comments that have been site-related and appropriately placed. I also forgot his comment about the whole nomination being a façade, which is really uncalled for, unless there's some huge underlying issues that I'm completely missing. He's free to express his opinion, but bringing strong emotions and perceived plots into play isn't the way to do it. <br /> <br /> :::::To address a point I missed earlier, I don't think that the wiki's policy on meatpuppetry should be discussed in terms of this conversation, if you've got feelings about changing it. Whether or not it's acceptable is a unique issue on its own, and I'm fairly certain it's policy (written or unwritten) to not alter policy while events regarding the policy are going on or in the middle of such an event. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I feel similar to how ThuumofReason is feeling. Anyway, I agree that in no way were there any clear personal attacks. Though I was under the impression that meat puppetry was a good reason to block, and I find it rather obviously so to be the case ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 01:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Meatpuppetry is a form of fraud, just like sockpuppetry, and I presume it's blockable. The rub is that sockpuppetry is sometimes hard to spot but usually easy to prove, while meatpuppetry is usually easy to spot but almost impossible to prove with any reasonable degree of certainty. It may be just a disguised form of sockpuppetry. You're essentially trying to argue ''res ipsa loquitur'', the thing speaks for itself; I say you need more to go on. How do we know Haysie doesn't participate as an anon while at school or work? How do we know the account wasn't started in good faith? How do we know that they made an agreement for Haysie to support rpeh's goals? And even assuming Haysie has a standing agreement to take certain positions and never contributes beyond that, how do we know that agreement is with rpeh? I'm not asking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt like this is a courtroom, just something that doesn't turn this into a witch hunt. So I just don't see how a block is necessary or just in these circumstances. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}Would asking Haysie be appropriate in this situation? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:56, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Certainly, if you feel that would be productive. For the moment, I'm just thinking about how easy it would be to frame or be framed for suspected meatpuppetry in the future. Someone who doesn't like what I'm saying could be making an account right now at the local coffeeshop, under a different IP, saying their old buddy Minor Edits told them to join the UESP. Times goes by, eventually someone will have a problem with me. Then this inactive account suddenly starts making comments in support of me, someone takes notice, and I'm blocked on the mere suspicion of meatpuppetry. It would be so ''easy''. I don't know about big conspiracies, but there are certainly ''plenty'' of individuals out there with a bone to pick with rpeh. All it takes is one crazy person, and since this is the internet, is it really all that unlikely that someone will do this eventually? And regardless of what you think of rpeh or the truth behind Haysie, do you think that other person really deserves to be framed and blocked? [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I don't know about blocking policy on meatpuppets, just with throwing out their votes if suspected. I feel it may be productive to ask Haysie about it, as if she admits to being asked by rpeh to add a voice or to being pointed towards the discussion by him then that would prove it, whereas other answers would disprove it or stay ambiguous. Don't forget to assume good faith--without that, we'd all be seeing conspiracies, in which case we might as well say that [[User:JR|JR]] is trying to slowly remove me from patrollership by gradually pointing out [[User_talk:Velyanthe#Fun_with_Grammar:_Compound_Modifiers_.28Compound_Adjectives.29|grammar issues]].<br /> <br /> ::I don't hold much opinion on whether or not Haysie is a meatpuppet, nor do I have huge issues with rpeh based on her vote (since we can't prove it in the first place). It's everything else I've mentioned that I have issues with, but please note that my opinions aren't very strong. <br /> <br /> ::I don't think that the fact that most of rpeh's posts were from two months ago really matters either, since his attitude has been similar recently and he has been negative towards RH70 in the same manner, even after taking a break. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 02:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::To be honest, I don't agree with Rpeh's block. However, since AKB just went and blocked him like that, without discussing it with other admins, also threathening to resign if his actions were considered to be wrong (as would be the case should the block be removed), there wasn't much I could do. Considering the whole drama, I didn't feel the need to make AKB look bad as well, so I tried to support him in the block (we already look bad as it is). Though I really think that the meat puppetry is a good reason to warrant a block. Since it cannot be proved, but the term exist and is a reason to block, well then someone has to take a look at the facts and decide on their own whether this is legit or not. And I believe it is not. I've put forth what I can call evidence. Perhaps we need more opinions from other admins/patrollers ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::That's the thing; what exactly is meatpuppetry? Just pointing a new or existing member towards a discussion is not enough to warrant blocking a person. As I said earlier, I think that's just electioneering 101. People have posted on my talk page before asking me to take a look at a particular conversation where some important matter was being decided; I don't consider that to be unjustified, and such behavior should be protected. That's just fundamentally about encouraging participation in the site, which is rarely a bad thing. For a meatpuppet, I think you need someone who joined ''and'' participated for, in practice, the sole benefit of another user's agenda pursuant to an agreement between them. That's pretty hard to prove. If Haysie would be willing to confess to this arrangement, it would rule out some other possibilities, although not the possibility of framing I mentioned.<br /> <br /> ::::Rpeh's comments in Feb. were at least borderline; I believe he acknowledged this is true. All I can do is reiterate that criticism, negativity, whatever you want to call it, is not necessarily unconstructive site participation. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::This is basically just talking in a circle now. As of now, as far as I see it, the majority of the users who have either felt the block was justified with the reasons I've given or would be justified (maybe under different parameters, I assume) if it were for the perceived meat puppetry (which he has more or less denied, though he never explicitly denied any relation with Haysie). Says most of the remaining arguing seems to revolve around whether his actions count as personal attacks (which I and many others consider them to be), and whether certain contributions should even count at all (I consider them to be valid due to the lack of any activity on the site between them). As of now, arguing over this isn't going anywhere, and I don't see the purpose of continued discussion on this subject. Unless Haysie intends to respond (and since there are already claims that this may be an elaborate frame job, I'm not entirely sure those opposing this would count any statement as genuine, meaning this discussion would just continue even further without any progress), or rpeh wishes to provide reasons for what he intends to do if he is allowed to edit again (which is a critical part of the appeal process), then I suggest we call this done. As of now, I don't see anyone persuading anyone else with any argument imaginable. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} I apologize for prolonging this discussion. However, I started writing these comments before AKB's last post, and I think they still have some merit even if the discussion is coming to an end; perhaps they'll give a few editors some new perspectives.<br /> <br /> In brief, I think rpeh's recent edits have been disruptive, and that some action to prevent further disruptions is necessary. Therefore, a block is appropriate. I had been thinking that a less severe administrative action might also be equally effective. Paradoxically, however, rpeh's appeal request leaves me more in favor of the block than I previously had been. Without his appeal, I'd been able to give him the benefit of the doubt. But if rpeh can't provide any reasons why we should think that his edits will be any less disruptive in the future -- or can't even tell us that the block might prevent him from making constructive edits -- then I feel no need to invent such reasons on his behalf.<br /> <br /> In my opinion, rpeh's recent actions have not been appropriate. Although no single sentence of rpeh's is a red-flag, unambiguous disruption and/or personal attack, his contributions need to be evaluated as a whole, not word-by-word. Overall, he has made repeated inflammatory comments, without any intervening productive contributions to the site. Each of his comments in Robin Hood's RfA was 100% negative; there was no redeeming value in terms of constructive suggestions -- unlike every other editor with a substantive oppose vote. He has not followed up with anything to lessen the negativity of those comments. His block appeal would have been a perfect opportunity to provide some type of explanation or extend an olive branch. However, he hasn't even acknowledged that the community has concerns about those edits.<br /> <br /> I whole-heartedly belive in Assume Good Faith -- but there has to be some minimal basis for assuming good faith, and the entire circumstances have to be taken into account, not just a single out-of-context sentence. Rpeh's comments were not made in error; there is no evidence that they're being misinterpreted. He has made no effort to say that he thinks there was anything inappropriate about his edits, or that anything about those edits should have been done differently. As a result, I just can't see any way to interpret his comments as well-intentioned edits that were supposed to benefit UESP. Rather, he simply appears to be venting, presumably because he is upset about being de-admined. He is completely entitled to be upset, and it's a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean that he is entitled to act out on UESP in response. He needs to be able to put the de-admin behind him and be willing to move forward -- otherwise I don't think he's ready to return to the site and return to being a productive editor.<br /> <br /> There is no questioning that in the past rpeh has been a valuable contributor to the site. However, Rpeh is not currently behaving/contributing in a manner consistent with a valuable contributor -- including the fact that he has not been making any productive edits. We need to make decisions based upon the current situation. In my opinion, allowing him to continue editing right now is only likely to lead to more inflammatory, negative comments posted on talk pages and noticeboards. Allowing those edits to continue will cause more disruption and harm to UESP, and therefore the community is justified in trying to prevent more such edits.<br /> <br /> Rpeh has made no attempt to convince the community that lifting the block will benefit the site -- even though the [[UESPWiki:Blocking_Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Appealing Blocks]] section explicitly recommends including such information in an appeal. Rpeh doesn't even suggest that he is planning to contribute to the site. Editing UESP is not a constitutional right. It is a privilege given to editors solely because we want to allow editors to help improve the site. People who don't want to improve the site don't need edit rights. Also, talking about courts of law and judicial evidence standards is irrelevant -- we're not talking about a decision that sends someone to jail. UESP decisions arguably are more like a group of friends deciding who to invite to a party than a court of law.<br /> <br /> All of which leads me to conclude that some action needs to be taken by the community to prevent rpeh from causing more disruption. A block accomplishes that goal. One argument against the block is that no warning was given first. AKB has already rightly pointed out that admins have the discretion to block without first providing a warning. One purpose of a warning is to make sure that the editor knows the site's rules and policies -- not necessary in this case. Another is to tell the editor that his behavior has been inappropriate -- but rpeh has already been told exactly that in the whole de-admin process. That was a pretty unambiguous message that the community disapproves of his negative comments directed at other editors. Placing a bright pink official warning message on rpeh's talk page immediately after de-admining him would have been rubbing salt in open wounds. Ultimately, a warning message is given in the belief that it may be sufficient to change the editor's behavior and prevent a block -- but based on rpeh's past behavior when given warnings, and based on his current argumentative responses, I see no reason to think that he would have paid any serious attention to a warning.<br /> <br /> Also, I think three months is an appropriate duration given that in the two months since the de-admin, rpeh has shown no signs of moving past that event.<br /> <br /> A final factor here is that we are talking about an existing block. Administrative decisions are judgement calls. In this case, AKB made a good-faith, thought-out decision based on the situation at that time and the information available to him at that time. Second-guessing after the fact whether that was the single best possible course of action at that point in time isn't really helpful. The question now is whether there is a definitive reason why the original decision needs to be changed. In his block appeal, rpeh didn't provide any reasons for how UESP would benefit if the the block was lifted, and I'm not aware of any such arguments from other editors.<br /> <br /> Given AKB's above comments, I think it may simply be best to close this discussion. However, if other editors still think that there are reasons why we need to lift the block -- reasons why that would be better for UESP than leaving it in place -- then I think those editors need to provide an alternative proposal about what can be done to prevent continued disruptions. Even though I strongly feel that simply lifting the block and doing nothing is the wrong course of action, that doesn't mean that there aren't other possible compromise solutions. I think any continuation of this discussion needs to be focussed on identifying such compromises/alternatives -- on finding a consensus rather than just voting. Otherwise, I agree with AKB that it's best to call this done. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Emotions are running high ==<br /> <br /> *Everyone here has a common interest or two, and that is the glue that holds this fan-site together. We could all be friendly.<br /> <br /> *We all contribute a little and use the great resource built by everyone for our own entertainment. This wiki is a group effort.<br /> <br /> *Feelings are what drive our editors to edit and all the other actions we do. Emotions are our brains way of helping us make decisions.<br /> <br /> So please consider these three things as you argue over the finer points which must be made. This site is one of the best quality on the internet, and I wish for it to stay on top. While participating in this drama, I implore you all to think about what your choice of action means to everyone including yourselves. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#000;padding:4px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Lukish|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0F0;&quot;&gt;Lukish&lt;span style=&quot;text-decoration:blink;&quot;&gt;&amp;#95;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; [[User talk:Lukish|Tlk]] [[Special:Contributions/Lukish|Cnt]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protection Template ==<br /> <br /> To make Admins' lives easier, I've updated the {{tl|Protection}} template to work almost identically to how page protection actually works. The template is mostly backwards compatible with how you're used to doing things, but it's no longer necessary to specify &quot;move&quot; as the second parameter. The move protection level is now assumed to be identical to the edit protection level. Apart from that, the biggest difference is how you specify pages that are ''only'' move-protected, which is now: {{tlx|Protection|move{{=}}full}}. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection Request ==<br /> <br /> Not 100% where to request protection so, can I request semi-protection status for [[Skyrim:No Stone Unturned]]. It is not heavily edited, but there is very little being added to the page by any of the edits, it's nearly as good as can be, and it's a waste of time to keep undoing the semi-useless/non-specific information that keeps being added. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;<br /> : Hey Silencer! Sorry, but even if the page appears as “good as it gets” it still contains a vn-tag, a poorly formatted bugs section (filled with the forbidden words ‘sometimes’, ‘for some players’ and ‘may’), so it needs more work. Besides, we rarely semi-protect articles based on heavy traffic, unless it’s repeated vandalism or heavy edit warring. Unless some of the other administrators disagree, I’d recommend taking a deep breath and just keep looking after the page and make sure it's up to standards. All the best, --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 09:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I agree with Krusty. Other than cases of heavy vandalism or edit warring, semi-protection is meant for pages where low-quality edits are ''very'' frequent (like [[SR:Glitches]], for example). Besides, the whole idea of the wiki is that anyone should be able to edit an article regardless of how good it already is, and there's almost always something that can be improved, even if the &quot;regular&quot; editors don't see it. I know it seems like a pain to keep maintaining an already very good page, but an easy &quot;undo&quot; just takes a few seconds. Traffic always slows down as the game ages, so I'm sure we'll survive ;). &lt;b&gt;[[User:Eshe|&lt;font color=&quot;navy&quot;&gt;eshe&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Eshe|&lt;font color=&quot;navy&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MediaWiki Upgrade to 1.19 ==<br /> <br /> Just an FYI that I'm in the process of upgrading the wiki to v1.19 of MediaWiki. Since we're running v1.14 this is a relatively involved process due to a number of custom changes we've made to the MediaWiki code as well as having to upgrade all the extensions, some of which are no longer needed since their functionality is now built into v1.19. There should be no downtime involved if everything goes well but I do expect there to be minor issues after the upgrade which will be dealt with as they appear.<br /> <br /> If there are any other MediaWiki related feature or extension requests just let me know as it would be easier to do everything at once. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 13:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> :That's nice. I recall viewing a recent blog post that suggested a upgrade :) --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 17:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Censorship ==<br /> <br /> http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=944801&amp;oldid=944800 &amp;ndash; Can someone please explain to me why hyperlinks to sincere critiques of UESP are suppressed? --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 20:37, 3 May 2012 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=944802 2012-05-03T18:47:54Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: As suggested by User:Kiz: http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=944801&amp;oldid=944800.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. For certain specific requests, see instead:<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Purge Requests|Purge Requests]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:New Page Requests|New Page Requests]]<br /> {{Archive Table|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|History|<br /> |History#Page Archives|Page Archives|<br /> |History#Past Administrative Requests|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == SEVERE caching issues on ths mobile site ==<br /> <br /> Title says it all. On a whim, I checked the CP on my iPhone, and it's '''way''' out of date. I'm talking December out of date. Hard refreshing did not fix it, so it's definitely server-side. When I log in, it takes me away from (and keeps me off of) the mobile site, so I can't purge it. Can someone please take a look at this? • &lt;font color=&quot;#4faf4f&quot;&gt;[[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:1.0&quot; title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot;&gt;&lt;font face=&quot;DragonscriptRegular&quot; size=&quot;3&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Jak Atackka|Talk]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Mass Proposed Deletion ==<br /> <br /> I'm going through and cleaning up [[Special:UnusedCategories]], and a lot of empty ''faction'' categories still exist. All 364 are listed below.<br /> {{Showhide|List of categories|2=<br /> Skyrim-Factions-put on doors to keep NPCs from opening<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-friends to both sides in MQ101<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-for the NPCs who can use the load door<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for party guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for guards in front<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for NPCs who should stay out of palace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunValtheimKeepBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunUstengravDraugrFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunRavenscarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFjolaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFactionAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SpiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SecureAreaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunLostKnifeCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionWarlockAttackedbySpiders<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderNormal<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderDocile<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurThrallFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurMikrulFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFaldarsToothDogAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-anyone in this won't fight with mq101 alduin<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Wolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WinterholdJailFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Winterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmAretinoResidenceFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmApothecaryFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Whiterun Guard Neutral Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WhiterunJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-White River Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Werewolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Warmaidens<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThiefFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WITavernPatronFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemySpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEUnaggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WESpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02NobleFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02BodyguardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERJ10EnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEPlayerFriend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJSMerchantHorseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS25EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS21HunterandDogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionB<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionA<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10SprigganFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10LumberjackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL08Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06ThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06LutreshFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL05Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07JorgenFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07DaetraFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAdventurerHorseRiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20WarlockFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE19BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16DeerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FrostAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FlameAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14SkeeverFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14DogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11SabreCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11MammothFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06PredatorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE05OrcFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE03EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire Thrall<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire PC Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Used to control DialogueOrcHunters conversations<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TownIrontreeMillFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves' Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-The Pale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thalmor - Fooled by PC disguise<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Tailor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TGTQ04 Niranye Attacks Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG09 Nightingale Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG08BMercerHatesPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG07 Vald Hates Player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG02 Aringoth Player Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T03HatePlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T01EnmonFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sybille Stentor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Storm Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Steward has already been blackmailed.<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Spriggan Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Soljund's Sinkhole Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SolitudeBluePalaceServants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sleeping Giant Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Slaughterfish Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Skooma Dealer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sinding<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SilverHandFactionPacified<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildNiranye<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildMallus<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildGulumEi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEnthir<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEndon<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanZaynabi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanMajhad<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanAtahba<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesHonningbrewMeaderyPost<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesDawnstarWindpeakInn<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rorikstead Manor Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Robber's Gorge Bandit Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Riverwood Trader Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Restoration Ritual Ghost Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last successful<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last failed<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is the player's active mission<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 2<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 1<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank 1 = Being Absorbed, 2 = Done<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Radiant Raiments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put in this faction to get WI follower comments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put dragon here when player absorbs power<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player set prisoner free (used to conditionalize packages, etc.)<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player is being escorted by a friend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player has accepted mission hooks from this field co<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player assaulted this NPC<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player Horse Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerWerewolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerMarriedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Penitus Oculatus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-POIVolcanicHunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Owners of the Common House<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Orthorn's Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Stormcloak<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Imperial<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Once the player gives the cow to the giant they are both permamently added to this faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Nilheim Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Immune to Mehrunes Razor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Captured by Bandits<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Moorside Inn Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageRivalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageCourtingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageAskedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthStewardOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them more suspicious in dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them enemies of the player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatPrisonerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatCaptorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Make dungeon creatures not attack me<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS08AlikrBaseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS06CultistFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletGuardEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02GrisvarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02ForswornFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinKillMargretFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinBeserk<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01TreasuryHouseEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01ConspiracyCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQGreybeardTrainingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQBladesSparringFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ306TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ304AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301SoldierDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301CombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206PastFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AncientAlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ202EnemyofPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201ThalmorEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201FriendDistractionDoneFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103SonsOfSkyrimSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103ImperialSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ102ChatterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101StormcloakFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101LokirEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101ImperialFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG05CreatureFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG03 Caller Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG02BossNonCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Largashbur Orcs<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kyne's Peace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kolskeggr Mine Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Karthwasten Guard<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-KarthwastenPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobStewardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobPriestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHousecarlFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobCarriageFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Ice Wraith Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunters of Hircine<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunter Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horker Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horgeir's House Occupants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Honningbrew Meadery<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Great Council Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Gray Pine Goods<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Giant Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Frost Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Forsworn Dog Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ForceFullBodyStagger<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For intimidate brawling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For dailogue when Thalmor have prisoner with them<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fletcher<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Flame Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fisherman Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fence<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellstar Farm Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellglow Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowIntimidateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowBribeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer Servant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FalkreathJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Exiled Government<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Eorlund Gray-Mane<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Enemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-East Empire Company<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DunAnsilvundBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dummy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dremora Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DragonsreachBasementGuards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DismissedFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Wndhelm Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Haafingar Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Falkreath Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Dawnstar Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Death won't trigger WIKill04<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dark Brotherhood Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Daedra<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB RecurringTarget 9 CrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Player Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Gianna Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DBCiceroDawnstarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB09 Door Lock Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Player Hate Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Orc Dream Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16OrcAmbushFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16ErandurFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11GlooredhelAllyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11CannibalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11AttackPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA10PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA09TemporaryDragonFriendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA08SelfPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07RazorOwnerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA03VampireFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02GuardsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ElisifAfraidOfPlayer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CultistsAreEnemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CulistsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ConduitPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01NelacarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentHireling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crowd Spectator<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crew of the Red Wave<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Condition on Spectator Idle Anims<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatHateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsSingleCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold Arch-Mage Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Evoker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Apprentice<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Chaurus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Can show up at battles in this hold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSurrenderTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierDefenderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierAttackerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierArcherFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWinterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWhiterun<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionRift<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionReach<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionPale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionHjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionFalkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08EnemyToGiant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission04PrisonerFreedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission03BedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortPatrolExteriorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortJailorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortGatekeeperFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortCommanderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWFinaleTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDisaffectedSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToDefendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWCivilianFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06PlayerWolfSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06KodlakAndWolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00JorrvaskrFightingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00GiantHuntFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Hunter<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Collector<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Blue Palace Guard for DA02<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BladesRecruitsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bits and Pieces<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardNoRequestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardAudienceMarker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bannered Mare Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaSelfLoathingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Allowed Faction for Execution Guard Package<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Agents of the Black Marsh<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-After Hadvar/Ralof get to know you, they are in this faction - used to conditionalize dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-1 = Imperial, 2 = Stormcloak supporter<br /> }}<br /> <br /> Now, some of these are just alternative descriptions of currently used faction categories, but some are used temporarily for individual quests. I am not too sure these should be kept as categories, though; rather, they should be described on the faction page. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :So, after thinking about, I want to go ahead and propose all empty faction pages for deletion. I really do not believe they serve a purpose by &quot;being empty&quot;; it doesn't really add to the fact that there is no one in that faction. So any of them found on [[Special:UnusedCategories]] are ''officially'' proposed for deletion. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Being 10 days old now, these can be deleted. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Done. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::Thanks! Not to be picky, but my second comment prodded ALL of the faction pages, which includes Tes3Mod and Morrowind. However, I still want opinions regarding those. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 02:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::And Oblivion, right? Well, they would be useful, if we could determine who is ever a member of the group. However, I see no way of going through the game scripting to determine who joins what faction. As such, I don't see a problem with them being deleted. However, I think we should err on the side of caution with Tes3mod factions, as all of those factions are a part of Tamriel Rebuilt, which is still a work in progress. We may have a need for them yet. The others however, should be deleted. If we were going to figure out a way to add all relevant NPCs to their factions, surely we would of done this already when the bots were running. Most of them also appear to only exist for the PC, so there intended purpose (categorizing what NPC is in what faction), can never be fulfilled as the faction only exists for the PC. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Actions to be Made ==<br /> <br /> This is a list of actions that I believe are required to be made for this community to continue to function. After recent actions, many users have been driven away from the site due to a number of recent actions and a rise in drama. Some of these actions were only made possible by a degree of mercy to those involved, which obviously did not work out for the best. While these actions will appear to be rather dramatic in themselves, I don't think this site can continue until we get past this. I've given this quite a bit of thought, so I hope this comes off as logical as I can manage. As a final note before I begin listing my reasons for these actions I'm about to make and my request for several others to be done for actions I cannot make myself, I sincerely apologize that I did not make them earlier.<br /> <br /> #[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] is to be blocked immediately. After his removal from the administration of the site, very few of his actions couldn't arguably be considered a personal attack, or at least disruptive. As examples, take [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 this] (where he insulted the founder of the site, and is grounds for immediate block in itself), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 this] (which while not a personal attack, is in no way polite, violating our Etiquette guidelines), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 this] (while there is nothing wrong with opposing a nomination, there is something wrong with making accusations about someones personal behavior (i.e. accusing Robin of sucking up to other editors to get his way) without evidence to back it up), and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 this] (where he described Robins actions as a &quot;Total disgrace&quot;). For these actions, I do not see how continuing to allow rpeh to edit will benefit the community when I can find only two actions (replies to messages on his talk page) since his de-adminning that hasn't been disruptive or have been grounds for blocking, I find it hard to defend allowing him to continue to edit for now. If he wishes to contribute positively, I will be both willing to listen to a block appeal and unblock him if the community agrees that he wishes to provide assistance to the site as an editor again.<br /> #&lt;s&gt;[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] should have his administrative rights removed for the foreseeable future. While his most recent activity was him announcing he wishes to take a wikibreak, he did return to leave [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934980 this opposition] to Robin's RFA. In it he showed contempt for several editors, accusing them of being part of a conspiracy to make certain decisions, and generally accused many recent actions of being idiocy. However, that is not all of his recent actions that was not appropriate for any user, let alone an administrator to make. He also pointed out a few of his other offenses, such as his actions during the request fro de-adminship for rpeh. See the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25#Request for a New User Group|Request for a New User Group]], where he responded to the discussion with &quot;Please, can we stop this idiocy?&quot; to a discussion that had been up to that point as far as I can see, a perfect example of how a discussion should go down. What is more perplexing is that a previous comment of his from the same discussion was a perfectly reasonable opposition, with him explaining rationally why he did not want to see the group created. Further comments along those lines would of probably had even convinced me that the group was a bad idea, with me being the one to propose it! Another action of his in response to discussions about the group (from what I understand) in the [[UESPWiki:IRC|IRC]] led to him [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive 24#Kicking.2FBanning of Dwarfmp and Elliot|Banning Dwarfmp and Elliot]] from the channel. While I do not request that Krusty be blocked (though it wouldn't be hard to find a reason), I believe that a self-imposed break may be better. Krusty has already voiced his wish to do just this, and I just ask that he does not take part in any site discussions and only work on uncontroversial edits if he chooses to not take a break for the immediate future, I don't see it necessary to demand he does this unless he wishes to cause further drama in the community.&lt;/s&gt;<br /> #Being lenient on administrators and long time editors for inappropriate actions must cease. Throughout this site's history administrators are given much more leeway than any other group of users on the site. This is ridiculous. Administrators and long time editors should be held to a higher standard if anything, not a lower one. Making excuses for &quot;bad days&quot; and the ilk needs to come to an end. If anything, these editors should clearly be the ones to know when they need to log off for the night, or when they shouldn't take part in a conversation, or if they do, they must be as diligent as possible to remain getting upset over it. These past few months have been all the proof we will ever need for this consensus to ignore the wrong doings of certain users does not benefit the site in anyway whatsoever. It's not like this isn't the first time that this hasn't led to problems for the site, and I'm not entirely sure this was even the worse fallout due to this, but I do intend it to be the last if I can. The amount of damage done to our community due to this unofficial policy may very well be irreversible, but it does not need to be repeated.<br /> <br /> While some other users may have made inappropriate reactions over the last few days, I do not intend to bring those to light as I believe them to only be unfortunate reactions to the actions of others. This may very well be one of them for all I know. Just to make it clear, I do not wish ill will to any user for any recent action, I'm merely doing what I think is necessary here. Some seem to think that there is such a thing as an entirely happy, one-minded community. I don't think this is the case, nor has it ever been the case. Users have always disagreed on issues throughout this sites history, which is only appropriate for any community-driven site. No community can hope to be one-minded without becoming stagnant. However, divisions with thought between users does not need to be expressed with hostility, and it shouldn't. While discussions can be emotional, expressing your emotions rationally and logically without attacking the other sides is absolutely necessary for discussions to happen without people getting upset and leaving. <br /> <br /> While only one of these actions I can immediately make (blocking rpeh). I ask that you all agree that my other two recommended courses of action need to be made. <br /> <br /> For all of the users who have left these past few days, I do ask that you return when you wish to. I apologize that administrative action on my part wasn't taken earlier to keep these recent issues from getting so sullied. I erroneously thought that inaction was the best action. For those who wish to leave specifically because of my actions, I simply ask that you explain to me what I did wrong so I may rectify my actions. Finally, if the community feels it is I in the wrong here for what I'm about to do, I would like you to consider this my resignation from all duties relating to this site. I bear no hard feelings to any of you if you feel this is the case. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I do not disagree with your actions and I very much agree with them, especially the third proposal, which appears to be a reason for lots of drama around here lately and the cause for allowing tension to rise so high. I am glad that someone is taking action in some way, and it's been needed for a while now. Late action is better than inaction. Hopefully things will cool down now. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:26, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::We all know that this RH thing has been controversial, but there's really no reason to ragequit because of it. Any issues that the community has should be resolved by the community, and that can only happen when we have the whole community. People have different opinions about things, and suggesting that people's opinions classify them into &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever only invites trouble. I see so many people holding grudges against either Krusty or RH that they're unwilling to view any action taken by those users in an objective light.<br /> ::Now, maybe it's because I don't use IRC, but I never noticed either Krusty OR RH making edits that couldn't be justified as improvements, and I certainly never noticed any &quot;cliques&quot; forming. Either way, this is a site dedicated to cataloguing knowledge about TES. The reason we registered is because, as a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games. This site is OUR &quot;clique&quot;, as it were. The concept of cliques developing within cliques is one that disturbs me, because just by registering, we've all signed on to the only clique that needs to exist.<br /> ::In short, by ragequitting over something as insignificant as this, you're taking your own voice out of the equation; more importantly, you're taking your valuable contributions out of the equation. &quot;The wiki is going downhill&quot; is not a logical justification for quitting, because as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it. The only real way for the wiki to go downhill is for all of its most valued contributors to leave. If you really care about the quality of the wiki, you won't take the easy way out every time there's a setback. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 22:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I am adding Thuums comments here because I feel they are appropriate (He also needs an explaination from you AKB). There is definately a feeling among some users of cliques forming for whatever reason, and that does need looked at. I can't disagree with blocking rpeh in consideration of constant removal of subjects from this page, however care should be taken with everyone else. Feelings are running high at this time and consideration is due before taking further action. I joined after this happened and the fact it is still running shows how much people care about this, but a line needs to be drawn, we need to move on from this and forget about it, things happened, who gives a sh*t, well we all do but its getting us nowhere, so for the good of us all we need to move on, give everyone else one chance, and breath. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do not endorse the comments of rpeh or Krusty in this instance; I disagreed with them on the underlying issue. But they had the right to speak their minds. I think blocking rpeh was wrong; all he did was express an opinion you disagree with. His comments regarding Robin were very harsh, but were they personal? They were tailored to RH's conduct and performance on the site, and anyone who accepts a nomination has to be open to hearing some criticism. I don't think pulling up non-profane comments from two months ago helps justify a three-month block for expressing his opinion on the merits of Robin as a candidate for adminship (and that was, after all, the subject). These aren't personal attacks, these are attacks some people are taking too personally. I think the number of people who changed their votes evidence that the opinions and arguments of rpeh and Krusty were persuasive to some people, and it seems to me that's what they were designed to do: persuade, not insult. De-adminning Krusty would be similarly inappropriate. I don't mean to be overly-dramatic, but in my opinion you are in the process of punishing them for dissenting. This isn't right. <br /> <br /> ::::And can we just stop for a moment and recognize this is all politics? Rpeh and Krusty's opposition to Robin has nothing to do with his skill or trustworthiness. They oppose him because they don't want him having a greater voice or be given deference in making site policy. And you, similarly, are now acting to reduce their voice and influence. The fact is, no one would make a rant like Krusty's rant against Robin unless they cared deeply about this wiki's future. Daveh should count his lucky stars to have an admin that cares that much. Rpeh has done enough for this wiki for his opinion to be worthy of some consideration, despite the (understandable) lack of substantive contributions recently. You've found yourself in this situation where their dedication has become an annoyance to you, so you want them marginalized. Well, things always go smoother when you stifle the complainers, but sometimes disagreement is healthy. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::At this point, I really can't make a point without repeating those of others; oh well: here's my two cents. Though I've been mostly silent, throughout most of the recent drama, I've been keeping up on most everything major on this site (particularly on the AN and CP), and due to my detached view of things, I feel that my view is a little more objective than those involved.<br /> :::::#Though in the past I've generally sided with rpeh (so as to not digress here, I more or less agree with Krusty's opinion on the matter). I feel that ES's actions were the beginning of the end for this wiki; the site has, for the few months since, been nothing but a place for outrageous accusations, which in turn get short and rude responses, and a site where two separate schools of thought battle for dominance (best illustrated by the arguments between Krusty and RH70). While I am not of a mind to think that there is a conspiracy on this site (nor do I think anyone thinks that; I honestly see no place where Krusty literally says that certain editors are conspiring to bring this wiki down), I do think that Krusty was referring to said schools of thought when he mentioned &quot;cliques&quot;. On the one side, you have people like myself and Krusty, who feel that rpeh's de-adminning was unnecessary and an overreaction to *off-site behavior*, and that this site has been seized with a peculiar fever of &quot;less is more&quot; (no offense Minor Edits xD); by that, I mean that people seem to think that small additions and patrolling are more important than quality control and running a detailed, consistent site. On the other hand, you have users such as RH70 (who I am actually just as fond of as I am of Krusty, rpeh, ME, Legoless, or AKB, though I don't know him quite as well) feel opposite. I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is better than anyone else's, however this is undoubtedly one of the roots of the tensions here on UESP. In that respect, I do not agree with Thuum of Reason: yes, Krusty has every reason to quit, and yes these recent events do imply a downhill spiral; that's my opinion, in any event. <br /> :::::#As for rpeh's blocking: a month ago I would have said no. However, his recent behavior and constant attacks on other users show that he does not deserve to remain as an editor on this site for the time being. Since he is unwilling to take time to cool off of his own accord, we have little choice but to force him to do so. However, I would also ask that users refrain from making attacks on the past of rpeh and users like him; this is one reason why they continue to harbor resentment towards users on this site. So please, just realize that it takes two (many more in this case) to tango.<br /> :::::#On the second count, however, I must disagree. I myself see no real reason to remove Krusty's admin rights; he is already taking a wikibreak, and aside from one (understandable) intrusion in a recent RfA voting session, he shows no signs of doing what rpeh has done.<br /> :::::#I couldn't agree more with this last section. Although I may seem sympathetic towards rpeh and Krusty, it is only because they are human, not because they are senior editors. It is their nature (as it is mine or that of, say, Elliot, who is another member I hold in high esteem despite his participation in drama past and present) to quickly become short with users when it comes to what we perceive as injustices or foolish moves. I just tend to walk away, which is why nobody notices (to my knowledge); that's not really possible when you're a senior editor like the aforementioned users. However, though I understand this, I extend no extra rights towards these users, nor do I wish to have any such rights extended to myself should I ever become regarded as a &quot;senior editor&quot;.<br /> :::::Since this basically outlines how I feel about the state of UESP at the moment, I think I'll go ahead and go back to my wikibreak (despite what my page says, I am on a break for the weekend as far as editing goes). Happy editing everyone!--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}{{ec}} Minor Edits has hit the nail on the head. I agree to everything he's said above. Especially about rpeh's so called personal attacks: they were harsh, but not personal or uncalled for per se; and also especially about Krusty's devotion to the site, and the politics.. everything! That doesn't mean you're WRONG, AKB, definitely no reason to resign! Also, regarding me being banned from the IRC was a reaction of Krusty's frustration with how he thought the wiki was going downhill. He admits that was a big mistake and has apologized, and as far as I'm concerned it never happened ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :{{ec}}x2- I refrained from adding any comments to the RfA after Krusty's post because I thought keeping silent was the only way I could help to minimize the drama. Still, I have a billion things I would like to say, and have now typed out and deleted so many of them that it's taken me over twenty minutes to write two sentences...&lt;p&gt; I think that AKB has summed up so much of what needs to be said in a very logical and rational manner, and I agree with him on many (but not all) points. Since I didn't become an active editor until just before Rpeh left, I can't say much in regard to blocking him based on past history, but I do agree that his most recent contributions have been disruptive. Perhaps a warning would be best? Then, one more disruptive contribution would result in a block. That seems fair to me. As for Krusty, I don't think removing any administrative rights is necessary or appropriate, especially given his self-imposed break. And the third proposal is spot on. There's no point in having policies, rules, or guidelines if they only apply to the masses. Though I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency AKB may be referring to, I agree with this one ''on principle'' completely. There's no reason not to have the same standards for everyone.&lt;p&gt; There are a couple of Thuum's comments which really stick out to me: ''As a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games... as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it.'' I have grown to love this site and its community, and while people will always have differences in opinion, I believe we can find a way to continue improving both the site and our interactions with one another. This should be fun and enjoyable, not tense, stressful, or drama-ridden. I do hope that anyone who has left in frustration over recent drama decides to return soon; it disappoints me to see them go, and think having them around can only benefit the site and its community. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}}x3-To reply to Kalis, it's small additions and patrolling versus quality control and consistency? Is that what this battle is all about? I don't know, but for the record, I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive, nor do I think one is more important than the other. It seems to me it's more about personality conflicts making people lose perspective on why we're here. <br /> <br /> ::Here's my polestar: this should be the best, and preferably only, TES wiki around. I don't see any reason for another TES wiki to exist, and time people spend editing such sites is better spent here. To achieve total market capitalization, you fundamentally need numbers. Great numbers of editors brings great diversity of skills. Diversity allows for specialization. Specialization allows for maximized opportunity cost, meaning we get greater returns for the amount of time editors invest in this wiki over others. That maximized return on editors' time naturally produces a better product, and a better product means greater and greater popularity. Growth is readers brings growth in editors and the wiki just keeps refining itself. But it begins with numbers, and to grow and maintain your ranks, you can't sweat the small stuff. I feel that should be a formal policy itself, or perhaps just a corollary to the etiquette policy: &quot;don't sweat the small stuff&quot;. You people can antagonize each other over petty garbage until the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards, or you can be tolerant, and allow each other to make the wiki better in whatever ways you each can. Since I still think that's what rpeh and Krusty want to do, make the wiki better, I continue to support them. Making sure the UESP remains a big tent is the only way for it to reach its full potential. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::ABCface managed to say exactly what I was miserably failing to articulate. Blocking rpeh would be a rash move that, although justifiable, would do little more than strain the website even more. People are still peeved that he was de-adminned, and blocking him would only aggravate them more and prove little. De-adminning Krusty is also a terrible idea, which although certainly justifiable would also only harm the website even further. The last thing we need to do is take a hammer to the wiki at a time that it's so fragile.&lt;p&gt;As for the last proposal, I agree with it ''in principle'', but as ABCface said there's no reason ''not'' to have the same standards for everyone. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} People ''seriously'' need to stop defending rpeh. It is absolute insanity that people continue to... no. I'm going to call people out by name, because it needs to stop. [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], AKB didn't block rpeh because &quot;all he did was express an opinion [he] disagree[s] with&quot;. Rpeh made '''blatant''' personal attacks. The links provided by AKB are just a ''few'' of the disgusting remarks rpeh has made to other user around here. [[user:Alphabetface|Alphabetface]], we have given rpeh chance after chance after chance. Any other user would have been given the boot a long time ago. This is ''exactly'' what AKB means by providing experienced users with a different standard. [[user:Jak Atackka|Jak Atackka]], decision about retaining the integrity of the wiki shouldn't be based on &quot;who will this piss off&quot;. If a user has been poison to the wiki, then that poison must be removed. Plain and simple. A hammer is needed, because nothing will change without it.<br /> <br /> Even if you don't believe rpeh should be blocked for making personal attacks, he should be blocked for using a meatpuppet in the administration vote. He's already used a sockpuppet before, so why this was ignored is beyond my comprehension.<br /> <br /> Now, AKB, I absolutely agree with every action you have taken and suggested. [[user:Krusty|Krusty's]] continued attacks towards new user and user who happen to focus on edits other than content edits are problematic. His actions are not that of an administrator. I had a person who had never been on the wiki, and his comments shocked the person. They even wondered why they had any authority at all. Now, that's essentially hearsay, but I felt it necessary to mention. <br /> <br /> The leniency towards experienced editors does indeed need to stop, even towards myself (although I believe I get the leniency less than other edits, such as rpeh and Krusty). Users should not be able to buy their way out of indiscretion with an edit count. <br /> <br /> Again, AKB, I thank you for decisiveness with this issue. It was definitely needed. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :{{ec}}I'll do my best to reply to everyone here in opposition to my actions and call for action. If I miss any points, I apologize<br /> <br /> :First to Silencer, there are no &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever you want to call them. There is nothing to suggest that there is besides a few accusations without evidence backing them. To be crass, this topic in itself is rather ridiculous. Who the hell would create a conspiracy around taking over the volunteer positions of a gaming site? I would not assume that there is any sort of unofficial organization acting unilaterally on the site. As I do not count current evidence as being conclusive, if anyone has more proof, please feel free to contact me privately to avoid a derail of current discussion.<br /> <br /> :Second to Minor Edits. All users can speak their mind, as long as they follow etiquette. Creating a hostile environment for users does not benefit any line of thought. They were indeed in violation of site etiquette as I interpreted them. Even if the points in question needed to be said for their opposition to count (and they did not, if they simply claimed that his actions when it came to patrolling and user relations were outside their standards, their would of been no issue), there were much less volatile ways to say them. Unless I have a much poorer grasp on the English language than previously believed, I don't see how I interpreted their comments incorrectly. I also wish to state that I hold a deep respect for both rpeh and Krusty, and even consider them to have been mentors to me in times of need. Finally, I wish to point out that I did not participate in Robin's RFA, the IRC (at all), rpeh's de-adminning, or the Request for a New Group shortly after starting it.<br /> <br /> :Third to Kalis Agea, I don't really consider myself to be of a similar line of thought as Robin when it comes to editing. I mainly add content, at least those are the edits I make that I care about. I would also add that I agree that attacking rpeh is inappropriate, as it is for literally anyone on the site to to do to anyone. I, however, can't find myself wishing to allow Krusty to remain an admin. He is a distinguished editor who has helped me more than I think I am capable of admitting without giving him credit for most of my NPC work. However, I don't see how allowing him to remain an admin helps us. He is human and prone to mistakes just as much as any of us are, but it's not like what we write is revealed in real-time. We have time to temper our reactions. If a user doesn't take the time to do that, especially for major posts, they are likely to make mistakes or say some really harmful things. Krusty did this, partially inspiring some users to leave. He has made a lot of errors recently when it comes to policy and user relations. Removing administrative rights will surely help cool down in the end. Ultimately, the option to become an admin again if the right is removed is still available. For now, he should not have the rights.<br /> <br /> :Fourth to Dwarf, I agree that Krusty is dedicated to the site. Dedication doesn't make one immune from making mistakes, even if they are out of love. As for him caring for site politics, what are these? We have ****ing politics? What the hell??? I thought we were just a bunch of fans of a game series creating a collaborative guide on it, not freaking politicians. If anyone has ever made a move for &quot;political&quot; reasons, then they don't get the purpose of the site, at least from what I've seen of it. Also, I only intend to resign if my third recommended course of action isn't met, which basically requires the other two to happen, I admit. I don't believe I can administrate this site if everyone gets into a frenzy over &quot;He said, she said, you can interpret this action or what this person said to mean this&quot; every few months. Especially when the current consensus suggests just not making any definitive actions to stop it.<br /> <br /> :Onto ABCface, lenience will not resolve these issues. The issues leading up to this were met with lenience, and we all saw what that lead to. Further leniency will only lead to continued problems.<br /> <br /> :Next onto Minor Edits second reply, not sweating the small stuff is what lead to these major problems. I don't see how you can consider them to be anything else when administrators are walking out. The best way to deal with the recent problems are the actions I suggested.<br /> <br /> :Finally to reply to Jak Attacka. Why in the same paragraph that you state that being lenient would be beneficial in this situation do you say that my call for an end to leniency is correct? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I'm interpreting what you wrote wrong, please correct me if I don't understand. Blocking rpeh doesn't strain the site in any way besides an emotional one that I admit I don't understand, he hasn't contributed positively for months. And I don't see how Krusty can't continue to edit without administrative rights for the foreseeable future. Administrative tools aren't a right, they are a privilege given to people we don't think will mess up with them (that badly). --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::My point on leniency was apparently not made clear. What I was trying to get across is that leniency is not tolerable. The same standards should apply to everyone-- whether they are admins or not. When I said &quot;on principle&quot; I didn't mean that I don't agree. I meant that I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency you were referring to. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}} In reply to elliot's comment about blocking for meatpuppetry, I'm not sure using a meatpuppet is a blockable offense. If it was a sockpuppet, sure, but a meatpuppet implies that rpeh or Krusty contacted ''someone else'' specifically to have them vote on the matter. That's just Electioneering 101. The meatpuppet's vote counts as much as the next person's, the only difference is that a suspected meatpuppet's opinion is far less persuasive to others, and may repulse some voters who would have otherwise voted in the same way as the meatpuppet. The punishment already fits the &quot;crime&quot;.<br /> <br /> :::I support AKB's third proposal, I just think he and I have different understandings on what constitutes leniency for long-time contributors and how to interpret the etiquette policy. I don't think I've extended long-term contributors any inherent privilege not available to a new editor. I think that's because I'm more lenient towards everyone in general- whether their anons, new accounts, or admins - compared to others. I think a big reason for this difference is that I never stop assuming good faith until I absolutely have to, regardless of how long someone has been contributing or what position they may have on the site. I extend to rpeh and Krusty the same courtesy I would give to any new user and presume that they are not here to cause trouble, but rather to make the wiki better. Re-reading their comments on Robin's RfA, I think the only way to conclude that either of them made a personal attack is by assuming that they made the appearance for malicious reasons, and not because they had legitimate reasons to oppose making Robin an admin. So in short, that's what I meant when I said don't sweat the small stuff: the assuming good faith policy should act as a guide for how to interpret and construe other policies. So, if there's any reasonable doubt about whether a person's comments violated the etiquette policy, for example, then the doubt should be decided in that person's favor. When it comes to the actions of rpeh and Krusty, I sincerely doubt that they have violated basic etiquette. Others have found what they had to say offensive, and thus imputed them with the intention to be disruptive and offensive. I don't think that's fair, so I won't hold to it. <br /> <br /> :::You're aces, AKB; I didn't mean to imply you were executing some kind of inappropriate vendetta against them. I assume good faith, and I guess I presume others will assume it in my words. And I hope that no one is assigning anger to me; I don't hold grudges, and I take pride in having a disagreement and resolving it amicably whether my opinion was heeded or not. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} You're right, my last point wasn't clear at all. I'm still trying to make sense of this entire situation. Just forget what I said there - I'm still undecided on the issue. I certainly agree with it in principle, but in action I always give a fair bit of leeway to our more experienced editors. Part of this is that as the representatives of our website, they have much more attention focused on them, and their mistakes are amplified. Part of it is blatant rationalization on my part - I'm still trying to figure out how much. That's a topic I've given a lot of thought yet still don't have a clear idea on. Looks like this'll be a busy weekend.&lt;p&gt;The way I see it, there are two different approaches to this obvious problem. The first is to approach the policy aspect of it. An editor abuses their privileges, they get punished. It does not matter who did it, they are all treated equally. The other approach is the personal aspect. This action will cause much more harm than good, so it shouldn't be done. Blindly applying policy versus completely ignoring it and allow our editors to do whatever they want because they have a high edit count. Both arguments are valid. I can't say which one I support, because frankly I don't know.&lt;p&gt;That's the abstract side of this whole debate. The literal side is how we treat the abuses themselves. I strongly dislike what rpeh did, and it is quite frankly disgraceful. I did defend him before, but after discussing it with [[User:Elliot|Elliot]] I've since changed my stance on the issue. I'm not sure about blocking him. On the one hand, I strongly dislike the idea of blocking people (besides IPs and spammers) because it'll most likely turn them off the wiki for good, but on the other hand I think rpeh is gone for good anyways. I am also unsure about Krusty's de-adminship, but I'm leaning towards opposing it (meaning he should stay admin).&lt;p&gt;If you are looking for my stance on the issues, they are currently undecided, undecided, and undecided. This discussion has given me food for thought, and I'm going to have to mull over this a while before I have anything meaningful to say. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break===<br /> <br /> {{od}} [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], please do not continue to ignore such behavior. Your type of thinking is precisely what has allowed this to go on for so long. Regardless, [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]] is a serious offense. <br /> :''Sock puppetry policy defines &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; as the recruitment of new editors to Wikipedia for the purpose of influencing or editing on a Wikipedia matter. This is forbidden, and new accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating. ([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Banning_policy|source]])<br /> Whenever we don't have an established policy, we defer to Wikipedia. Please also see the [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Agapetos_angel|Arbitration decision]] that banned a user and her meatpuppets. So yes, Minor Edits, it is blockable (see [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users|Wikipedia:List of banned users]] and just search for the term ''meatpuppet''). I don't know how I can make this point any clearer. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 07:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Alright, let's see if I can't pull of making a coherent post after all. :)<br /> ::Firstly, in response to Minor Edits, perhaps I should rephrase. The point I was trying to make (rather unsuccessfully) is that the idea of a &quot;clique&quot; and a schism of sorts is not so much literal (i.e. there is no conspiracy to take over the wiki on the part of any editor(s); I didn't get that message from Krusty's posts at all, as some others did). In no way am I trying to say that editing preferences are destroying the wiki (if only it were that simple!). Rather, I am saying that there are certain editors who already have something against a certain editor or other groups of editors (I hope that makes sense). These editors will find anything to use as ammunition against others, even something so trivial as editing preferences. I was merely supplying an example of the many-layered complexity that has become the drama of UESP.<br /> ::Now, as for AKB: I suppose I see your point; I also see that you are quite determined to see this through. I don't have any real reason to oppose point #2 other than that I don't yet known how Krusty feels about this. Once that is known, I will be able to say &quot;yea&quot; or &quot;nay&quot;, should this come to a vote.<br /> ::My main point in the first place was simply that the past few months have seen an unfortunate and dramatic turn of events with which I am highly dissatisfied; so much so that I have refrained from posting responses longer than a small paragraph on such issues. Even now, I see no reason to continue actively editing on such a site, especially when I have very little left to actually contribute to it time-wise. At the same time, I feel that I am most likely just overreacting and should just leave the site completely and come back with a level head; a fresh start, as it were. And for my part I intend to do so.--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::As much as I hate to admit it, rpeh has been making too many personal attacks lately. I don't have to like it, but if he can't be constructive, blocking him might be the best solution. That's the only thing I'll voice a definite stance on, as I'm still not sure where I stand on #2. I will say that before doing anything rash that will invite more trouble, we should take everything into consideration. As Krusty is always saying, we need to think of the consequences our actions will most likely have. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 11:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::AKB, I agree that there's leniency that causes a lot of trouble. And you're right about that it should stop. As Kalis Agea said, before we debate whether Krusty should be de-admined for a while or not, I'd rather hear what he has to say about it (because if he simply agrees with stepping down for a while, then why argue). As for rpeh's block, Elliot raised a good point regarding the meat-puppetry. I have absolutely no qualms with that block if the reason is changed to meat-puppetry. Seeing as you said it was simple recruitment, AKB, that just proves there's politics on the site. I agree that the whole politics business is bad for the wiki, because in the end, we're all headed towards the same goal: improving the wiki ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::I can't agree with either of points 1 or 2, i'll comment on the 'clique' as well. I wouldn't there has ever, or will ever, be a conspiracy. What I meant is: that whilst the two groups oppose each other they are obviously not putting as much thought into editing as they could be. Blocking rpeh can only possibly drive him away further, so thats an editor who has made 78944 edits being discarded for a further amount when he could be contributed positively to UESP? (Thats not counting the 81516 edits his bot made under his control). That just seems odd. Removing Krustys Admin rights in my opinion gets even odder, but I don't have much other than his contributions in either of there defenses. On the subject of coming back to vote, they both obviously felt the need to voice there opinions on the matter. I think the leniency levels work... to a degree. A bit more strict yes, (3 strikes and your out rule in regards to warnings?), but not by loads I don't think. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 14:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::[[user:Kiz|Kiz]], can you please tell me what makes up a personal attack in your mind? Calling a user a &quot;total disgrace&quot;? Calling a user a &quot;troll&quot;? I mean, please let me know, because apparently, rpeh can say whatever he wants, and you wouldn't care because you are afraid of &quot;driving him away&quot;. Did you miss the entire point of holding a double standard for experienced editors? '''Your thinking is part of the problem.''' And you also said that rpeh could have contributed positively... sorry, but from what rpeh has told me, he has no intentions of coming back, which makes his actions ''that'' much more worse. I could understand if this were his first time attacking another user, but it's not. This is just an endless cycle perpetuated by users who let him get away with it. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 17:20, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}If we're starting on personal attacks elliot, don't bother, you called me a troll in IRC which is no better at all, by your standards that makes you as bad as rpeh. I purposely avoided commenting on personal attacks, because I have no further comments on the matter. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 17:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I'd like to point out that saying I called him a troll is a complete fabrication. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :After some thought, I have to agree with [[user:Elliot|Elliot]] here and call for rpeh to be banned. I strongly dislike banning people, but rpeh has clearly violated the rules (with both [[User:RobinHood70/RfA|personal attacks]] and [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]]) and clearly has nothing constructive to add to this wiki. He can't hide behind his edit count, and people need to stop blinding themselves with his contributions. Rpeh needs to be banned. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I've taken some time to think about this, and in light of recent events, I feel it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment about what actions should be taken in regards to rpeh and Krusty, though I will say that I don't think it's fair to take any action ''in absentia''. Instead, I'll focus on point three, as well as some of the ensuing discussion.<br /> <br /> ::As anyone who's ever been in a position of authority knows, there's a balance between ignoring the rules and enforcing them. Different people tend towards different sides of that. On a wiki, when it goes too far towards ignoring, people often have a lot of fun at first, but many quickly become frustrated with the unfair application or non-application of rules and they stop editing. After all, why have rules if nobody pays attention to them - it only lets bullies come to the fore. When it goes too far towards enforcing, people often like the structure and fairness at first, but tend to stop editing when it becomes an authoritarian regime. Similarly to the above, why edit when the slightest misstep gets you a warning or a block?<br /> <br /> ::I think it's fair to say that in more recent times, the wiki has tended more towards the ignoring side than the enforcing side. I would go so far as to say that it has swung too far to that side, and yes, some people are feeling unfairly treated. Obviously, AKB tends more towards enforcement than we've had in recent times, and I think that can only be a good thing, since it will undoubtedly be balanced out by those who take a less strict view of things.<br /> <br /> ::In regards to our various policies, specifically those around personal attacks, I'd like to point out that personal attacks aren't the be all and end all. The [[Project:Etiquette|Etiquette]] policy also includes statements like the very first bullet point, and bolded no less, &quot;Be patient and courteous&quot;. It also includes points about being polite and assuming good faith. I agree with AKB that any long-term editor, regardless of what rights they may have, should be held to ''at least'' the same standards as others. If you've been a regular editor around a wiki for more than a few months, it should be pretty clear how they're supposed to work. If you've been around for a few years, these sorts of things should come naturally. Sure, we all have times when our temper gets the best of us or something just plain comes out wrong, but we apologize for them and move on. It's when the apologies aren't sincere or are absent altogether, particularly when someone points out the issue, that the etiquette policy and others really need to be brought into play in my mind.<br /> <br /> ::Kiz brings up a great idea with the three strikes rule, or some variant of it. This sort of thing has been used very successfully in forums for ages, and even Wikipedia has a variation of it with their [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject_user_warnings/Usage_and_layout#Levels|user-warning levels]]. I think if we combine that with a balance of [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Template the regulars|Template the regulars]] (for warnings about etiquette and similar issues) and [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars|Don't template the regulars]] (for reminders about previewing, signatures, etc.), we'll have a workable system that's fair to everyone. There would need to be some method of having warnings removed over time, but specifics of any such system might be best for a new topic. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break 2===<br /> The first thing I thought when coming across this section was: &quot;Wow! Steady on guys!&quot; I've only just made sense of this flood of drama given my prolonged absence and I was surprised to find so many competent editors, most of which I held in high esteem when I was active, are literally at their throats. This obviously can't be constructive. I have problems with the first two issues proposed by AKB. I have thought a lot about them and have had private talks with both users involved, who I'm not afraid to consider friends. I've already given my opinion on rpeh's block, so I'll tackle the second point before explaining why I'm 100% behind the third point.<br /> <br /> Krusty's de-admin request is not a good idea, as many above have pointed out. Most importantly, Krusty has already decided to take a wiki break and cool-off. Yes, Krusty did return to oppose RH's RfA (as if that were a reason to be stripped of adminship!) and to be honest, whether you agree with his points or not, he did bring forth the fact that there was a rift in the community and people have acted on it largely thanks to his post. His words for a certain group of users certainly wasn't loving but there is no denying that there are some editors, and there have been for as long as I've been here, who see themselves as the paladins of righteousness; always ready to jump when they perceive &quot;abuses of power&quot; and conveniently forget their own precedents (and in case anyone is wondering, [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#De-Patrollership_Request_for_Elliot I'm talking about Elliot]). Krusty's &quot;idiocy&quot; comment and his blocking of Dwarfmp on IRC stand out as his worst actions as administrator, but if we look at the bigger picture of his adminship it is clear these are the exception, not the rule. Everyone makes mistakes and this was at a time of great stress. Removing his administrator rights now would be the worse course of action.<br /> <br /> The third point, which I believe should have been the thrust of this post but was inevitably overtaken by the other two, is a very, very good point. Although personally I don't believe I have ever been given any sort of special treatment, it is true, as RH pointed out, that there is a history of this sort of behaviour on UESP. Cracking down on that is everyone's interest. It hard to write up policy for this sort of thing. What we need is for everyone of us to say: let's draw the line here and now - we won't tolerate privileged treatment anymore. I know this may seem to contradict my opposition to Krusty's de-admining but if we decide to crack down on this behaviour we must do it for all who have benefitted from it in the past, not just the convenient recent targets. Because this isn't feasible, let's start off with a blank sheet, but let's be serious. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Nice to see you come back. If you feel like trying to bring me down in order to invalidate my opinion, then you need to go to another wiki. I know what I've done, and I know what I've ''not'' done. So, if you are going to bring up a '''two year old discussion''' in order to disparage me, then let's bring up ''every single thing that rpeh has done wrong'' (remember, this is a discussion about '''rpeh'''). That's sarcasm, by the way. We are discussing things that have happened in '''2012''', not '''2009''', so if you could keep your points relevant, that would be a great help. Thanks. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:05, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Good to see you back from you wiki-break too Elliot! Two days have been long and hard without you! (That's also sarcasm by the way.) The reason why I mentioned you should be obvious. I don't like to make claims without supporting them with facts (I couldn't care less when they occurred) and I wanted to avoid people thinking I was accusing them. Also, please stop victimising yourself. That link isn't even close to being the central point of my post, but rather an aside to avoid confusion. It isn't always all about you Elliot (you're honestly not ''that'' important) and, despite your claims to the contrary, this conversation isn't '''just''' about rpeh. It's actually about a lot of things, which include rpeh's block. If you stepped back and stopped your hatred of rpeh guiding your every action, you'd see all this by yourself. Really do try to do this: I'm ''actually'' off to study for my finals so I won't be here to explain it to you again. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::I never did say it was about me. But I don't really hate rpeh, it's more of hating how people give him special treatment, including yourself. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Page Protection ==<br /> <br /> I've been doing some more bot work tonight, and I've come up with a list of pages where the expected page protection doesn't match the actual page protection. You can see the list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]. (Sorry for the reverse page sorting...change in logic that I forgot to fix before the bot ran.) Mostly these are archives, but I've added checking for our Javascript pages, site financial data, and I'd like to suggest that we also protect the various [[UESP:Messages]] subpages as well. Now, I have a few questions:<br /> <br /> # Do the pages in the list all look like reasonable pages to add the suggested level of protection to?<br /> # Are there any others the bot should be checking?<br /> # Once we're happy with what the bot feels needs to be changed, do we want it to go ahead and change them all or would an Admin rather do it?<br /> <br /> A little background on that last question: when we originally granted bots permission to change page rights, rpeh was an Admin and he was the only one actively running a bot at the time, so it was of little consequence. In my case, the bot's rights exceed my own, so I thought I should check that nobody had concerns with that. The bot can be made to either produce a report or actually change the rights at the flick of a switch, so it's not a big concern for me either way. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I personally don't have any objections to it, but I'm not an admin. You only suggested semi-protecting [[Daggerfall talk:Vampirism/Archive]] - you should also archive [[Daggerfall:Vampirism/Archive]]. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::{{ec}} Please note that due to a design change in MediaWiki a while ago, some older protected pages aren't being reported as such. I'll ask Nephele or Dave to run the maintenance script that updates this and regenerate the list shortly.<br /> <br /> ::Jak: Currently, the bot isn't looking for archives in non-talk pages other than UESPWiki. It's not hard to do, but I'm concerned that it would probably get a lot of false hits as a result. Once I've gotten Neph or Dave to run the maintenance script, I'll see what the bot would &quot;want&quot; to protect if I included all namespaces. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::'''For the Admin who has too much time on their hands:''' ;-) can I get someone to unprotect and reprotect the following list of pages? From what I've been able to gather Googling around a bit, they were all protected a long time ago when we were on an older version of MediaWiki and the internal protection coding has changed since then. The maintenance script failed to fix the problem for whatever reason, so a number of pages aren't showing as protected in some lists, but they're fine in others. In addition to the obvious issues it's causing with my bot getting confused (which is a minor concern that I can work around), it's possible that the protection may not propagate properly whenever we do future MediaWiki upgrades and we might not even be aware we'd lost it, which is a much bigger concern. Anyway, here's the list of the pages the bot identified &lt;s&gt;initially, though there could well be others that the bot wasn't designed to pick up on. I'll need to do some programming, and checking will take a bit of time in and of itself, but I'll add to this list if I find more.&lt;/s&gt; Unless Daveh is planning to upgrade the wiki in the next few days and surprise everyone, there's no big hurry. :)<br /> <br /> {{Showhide/Start|Oddly Protected Pages}}<br /> :::* [[:File:Mainpage-logo.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Somerights.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:UespPages.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Wiki.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:Index.php]] (full) - note: this one can be hard to get to due to the redirect to the main page. Use [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Index.php&amp;redirect=no this] to get there<br /> :::* [[:Main Page]] (full)<br /> :::* [[General:Links]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] (full)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 2]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Battlehorn Castle (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Deepscorn Hollow (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Frostcrag Spire (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Mazoga the Orc (quest)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Umbra (person)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Glitches]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Oblivion]] (Edit=semi Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Shadowkey:Shadowkey]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Muffle (effect)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Thieves Guild (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:About]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Photo&quot; Category]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Special&quot; tips?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP IRC Meeting (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP The main namespace, and its use (or lack thereof)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP Why Put Quests Under &quot;Quests&quot; Article?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/Other Subpages (And why we need them)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Bad Addresses]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyright and Ownership]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyrights]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (3)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tamriel:Atronach (Daedra)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:History]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:IRC]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Oblivion Places Redesign Project]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Costs]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Account Balance]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/April 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/August 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/December 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/July 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/June 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/May 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/November 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/October 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/September 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Spam Blacklist]] (full)<br /> :::* [[User talk:Rpeh]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[User:ShakenMike]] (full)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> :::&lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::I've unprotected all (but 1, read additional info below) of those pages and reprotected them accordingly, all with infinite expire time (assuming that was necessary for all). This one: [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], didn't have a protection tab, Krusty says that's up to Nephele or Daveh to do, so I did all I could :) ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:55, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::That's great, Dwarfmp! I don't think the Common.css file is all that big of a concern, since the entire MediaWiki space is limited to editing by Admins only in the first place, so even if it loses its protection at some point in the distant future, not much will actually have changed.<br /> <br /> :::::Now, does anybody have any concerns with the bot protecting the various archive pages list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]? I've got a tiny bit more code tweaking to do, so rather than drag this out too long, since I know everyone's busy, I'll go ahead and protect the pages appropriately unless someone objects within the next 48 hours. My thinking is that we could easily have created an Admin Bots group if we'd been all that concerned about it, but we didn't, so it seems reasonable to me that if we gave all bots the right to protect/unprotect pages, that we should feel free to do exactly that, especially since I'm duplicating the exact task they were given that right for in the first place. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Rpeh's Block Appeal ==<br /> <br /> Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all editors are entitled to an appeal on the Administrator Noticeboard, so at Rpeh's request, I am starting a thread here, and posting what has been said on his [[User talk:Rpeh|talk page]], so that everyone can see it, and he can provide his argument for appealing the block. I am aware that some may not see me as the guy to start an appeal for him, but we have to play this by the books. [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Please specify the alleged &quot;personal attacks&quot; and &quot;multiple disruptions&quot;, and please highlight the warnings given about them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I would first like to start off by saying that no formal warning has been given about this. However, as UESP [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] states: ''&quot;Although this three-step process [Warn, Temporary Block, Permanent Block] is the normal procedure, administrators have the authority to bypass one or more steps at their discretion.&quot;'' The policy page goes onto include personal attacks as a reason to not just bypass a warning, but can be grounds for an immediate permanent block. I made note to remove any mention of a warning from this block due to this. <br /> <br /> ::As for your request for examples, you have [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 claimed that Daveh is sycophant and incompetent], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 left a sarcastic reply to a user during a previous request to have you blocked], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 claimed that RH70 was sucking up to other users] (according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F Wikipedia Policy], accusing a user of a certain kind of behavior without evidence to back it up is considered a personal attack), and you were disruptive when a user's eligibility in a discussion was called into question due to perceived signs of meat puppetry [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935811 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 here]. <br /> <br /> ::I apologize that I don't have time to go into detail with anything but I'm rather busy IRL at the moment. I may be disposed to reply swiftly to any other message, but I will try to get back to you. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Quite simply, none of those are personal attacks. At a pinch, the comment to Daveh was on the line, but it took place over two months ago so handing out a three month block now is a clear violation of natural justice. As for my comments on RH, Krusty had already provided the evidence. I was simply adding my voice in support. No justification for this block, so please undo ASAP. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do have to add that, and I quote: &quot;A pattern of hostility reduces the likelihood of the community assuming good faith, and can be considered [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing disruptive editing].&quot; Considering your inactivity on the site, it is likely these posts were meant to harm the wiki.<br /> <br /> ::::If that doesn't convince you this block was justified, I'll add [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935490 this link], a vote which is suspected to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry meat puppetry]. Since meat puppetry is as good as impossible to prove, it is up to an administrator to act as a judge. Considering the user in question has made a total of only 4 [[Special:Contributions/Haysie|contributions]], of which 2 are edits to their userpage, and the other 2 being the vote on the rfa, it is highly unlikely this person has sufficient knowledge to cast an actual vote. While it is not impossible for the user to have observed the wiki, the lack of previous votes since they subscribed leads one to believe they also lack the interest to vote. If you check their [[User:Haysie|userpage]], you can read the following line: ''&quot;I am a newbie to the Elder Scrolls world - having been introduced by Rob, one of the admins on this very portal.&quot;'' At the time this addition was made, you, '''Robert''', were an admin. This should provide enough evidence of you two being friends, which makes their vote (in which your argument was simply repeated) a mere &quot;back-up&quot; from a friend, which is prohibited ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 18:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I'm quite honestly astonished by the hypocrisy taking place on this site at the moment. I was de-adminned because I committed &quot;censorship&quot; by removing a totally unproductive discussion from the site. Now I'm blocked for standing up for my right to comment on an RfA and a user's right to cast a vote? Seriously???<br /> ::::: The entire premise behind this block is that nobody making the active users list deserves a right to vote. That is, quite simply, wrong. The reasons behind ''my'' block then move on to what ''another user'' has said on their user page! Seriously, people! Try putting forward this kind of &quot;evidence&quot; in a real court and see how far you get!<br /> ::::: I have made ''no'' personal attacks and committed ''no'' other blockable offence, yet was banned without warning. An unblock is the least that needs to be done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all users are entitled to an appeal on the AN. Is this to be considered and appeal, and shall I move this for you, Rpeh? [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I was wondering how long it would take. Yes, please. There's absolutely no justification for this block. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Absolutely not. Considering he still sees nothing wrong with meatpuppetry and his attacks on other editors, I feel compelled to ask for an admin to ''extend'' the block, rather than shorten it. I have made my comments in the [[#Actions to be Made|above section]], so there is not much else I can say on the matter. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I'm not going to comment too much on this because I don't have a lot of time on my hands. All I'll say is that if rpeh should be blocked at all, the only grounds that should be debated upon are the alleged meatpuppet. That's all. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::So how is it appropriate to ignore rpeh's attacks other users again? [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I support the block based on the links others have provided, and believe them to be attacks on individuals, indirectly or directly. Saying ''&quot;Unfortunately, you decided to go for &quot;Oh, good!&quot; and sycophancy instead of actual competence.&quot;'' may or may not have been insulting Daveh, but it most definitely insulted RH70 by calling him a sycophant and incompetent. ''&quot;As for the claim about competence: I've got a TESV map up and running. It works well, and I've played around with things like gamma correction and contrast so that it doesn't look too bad. Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;'' is an inappropriate insult to competence when something more like ''&quot;I've got a map up and running that looks pretty good, and I know you're not too great at maps, so I'm fairly confident in my competence.&quot;'' would have worked just fine. It's a minor difference, but that last line in his post--''&quot;Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;''--was completely unnecessary and rude. ([[Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying_incivility|Civility]] guidelines say that ''&quot;belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgmental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. &quot;that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen&quot;, &quot;snipped crap&quot;)&quot;'' counts as rudeness, and I view that statement as being judgmental in this manner.)<br /> <br /> :::::''&quot;His main input has been to spend hours splitting hairs and pushing his own idiosyncratic POV on policy debates while doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates, and sucking up to people he thinks will benefit his wiki career.&quot;'' On one hand, I can see how this is an evaluation, but on another, it's snide insults. If someone's messing with templates in a way you don't like, it can be changed or conversations can be had. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions on policy debates. Typos and other tiny edits are absolutely necessary towards the quality of the articles on this wiki. They may not be large edits, but one need not insult another's activities based on the amount of the page that is edited (''&quot;nothing but fixing typos&quot;'').<br /> <br /> :::::Calling RH70 a &quot;total disgrace&quot; for calling up a policy is something that absolutely does not assume good faith. It was a discussion of established wiki policies, and the insult was not necessary, along with saying that RH70 was ignoring policy despite him bringing one up. If it was not a misunderstanding on rpeh's part, then it seems more like needless aggression to me.<br /> <br /> :::::If I have misunderstood anything here, please point it out. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Okay, let's do this &quot;by the book&quot; then and examine all the examples of rpeh's conduct being used to support his block. First of all, rpeh never accused Daveh of sycophancy or incompetence. Rather, he accused Daveh of &quot;going for&quot; (i.e., supporting) sycophancy over competence. He confirmed this in the second comment AKB linked to, where he stated that he had previously accused Daveh of being &quot;subject to sycophancy&quot; (again, not calling Daveh a sycophant; the sycophant is the flatterer, and rpeh was saying Daveh was the person being influenced by flattery). I don't agree with rpeh's assessment, but it's a stretch to say he had no basis for thinking that way.<br /> <br /> ::::::The second comment AKB cites to is sarcastic, yes, but I think we're going down a very dangerous road when we start saying that ''sarcasm'' is a blockable offense. I believe utilizing sarcasm to drive a point home can be done at the discretion of every user here, rpeh included. As for the third comment about RH &quot;sucking up&quot; to people, rpeh incorporated by reference Krusty's reasoning, which mentioned several concrete situations where RH's conduct could be perceived that way. So it's false to say that rpeh accused RH of certain kinds of behavior with no evidence to back it up.<br /> <br /> ::::::There's something in the background of this discussion that I feel should be brought to the fore: some people seem to believe that making our jobs easier is the same as making the wiki better. It's not. It is wrong to assume that any &quot;disruption&quot; a person may cause is necessarily detrimental to the site. It may be easier for some to block rpeh or someone like him than to allow him or her their right to speak on the site concerning site matters. We wouldn't have to convince them, argue against them, or be challenged by them. However, it would not necessarily make the wiki better, and that's what the goal should be. Making our jobs easier is fine up and until we reach a matter where our jobs are ''supposed'' to be hard. People management is not easy, but it's not supposed to be, and simply silencing people for the sake of convenience is the coward's way out.<br /> <br /> ::::::Anyways, it's clear to me, at least, that the months-old comments AKB dredged up were only mentioned to buttress the weak foundation for this block, and really the only substantive reason was rpeh's opposition to RH's RfA and the suspicion of meatpuppetry. Allow me to reiterate: (1) Opposing someone in an RfA by expressing an opinion on the merits of the candidate for adminship is a valid form of participation and not a &quot;disruption&quot; to the site, (2) &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; is just a derogatory term for what is, essentially, an acceptable electioneering practice which doesn't justify a block, (3) the punishment for suspected meatpuppetry is that it is unpersuasive and repulsive to other voters, and that it may be discounted by Daveh, ''not'' the implementation of a block, and (4) blocking rpeh over likely misguided perceptions and prejudices rather than for actual violations of UESP's policies and standards is offensive to my conscience.<br /> <br /> ::::::In response to Vely, when you say rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment was &quot;needless&quot;, how do you define what was needed or not? The presumed goal was to dissuade others from voting for Robin, who already had a substantial number of votes in his favor (including my own). Hopes of achieving his goal must have looked bleak, and rpeh likely felt he needed to state his opinion as forcefully as he could to help turn the tide against Robin's nomination. Judging by the aftermath, he was correct in that assessment. And while &quot;total disgrace&quot; is hardly favorable, it's clearly rpeh's assessment of the merits of Robin as a candidate to be an admin, in the appropriate forum, and ''not'' a personal attack or grounds for a block. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}RH70 pointed out a policy with suspicions about Haysie--without definitively stating more than that suspicion--to which rpeh replied with a statement that RH70 was misusing policy. I don't see how a simple mention of a policy (with reasonable suspicion, as the only person we know Haysie knows on here is rpeh and there were only userpage edits before then) is grounds for being called a disgrace. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 23:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :I'm genuinely hurt by what I'm seeing. I respected rpeh as an editor, and I don't deny that I don't approve of how he was de-admin'd, but if he shouldn't have been then, he definitely should be now. Regardless of what happened, there is no reason to speak so harshly with so little provocation on so many occasions. I'm equally disappointed to be seeing so many editors I used to have so much respect for using semantics as a way to justify needlessly provocative comments. Let me repeat: I &lt;i&gt;supported&lt;/i&gt; rpeh, and even I can't deny that his posts are inflammatory. As Kenny said, we cannot continue to overlook infractions because of a history of good contributions. Hell, if Daveh himself started breaking the community rules and being rude like this while never contributing anything worthwhile, I doubt many people would disagree with a demand for his resignation. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 23:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}} To Velyanthe, I don't see how, either; Rpeh's explanation was not perfectly clear (again, not a blockable offense). I imagine it went something like this: he understood the wiki policies to mean that all users are presumptively welcome to participate. He also must have thought, rightly or wrongly, that the users were preparing to categorically discount Haysie's vote and that there was nothing in the policies which allowed for this. The most relevant sentence, &quot;Certain comments may be discounted if there are suspicions of fraud; these may be the contributions of very new editors, sockpuppets, and meatpuppets&quot;, does not specify ''who'' may discount a vote or what measure of certainty is needed. So he either thought that this was guidance for individuals, that they may consider a vote so unpersuasive so as to not count it at all, or else that it allowed a vote to be categorically discounted by an administrator at the final tally, but doing so required hard evidence, not circumstantial evidence like what we have here. Just to start, it's certainly possible that Haysie makes contributions without signing in, it's also possible that he or she made the account with a good-faith intent to participate, and without any agreement in place to support rpeh's endeavors. While allowing for these possibilities might mean that discounting a vote for meatpuppetry would rarely happen short of a confession, that's not such a bad thing. It doesn't stop individuals from concluding that someone is a meatpuppet. Like I was saying before, that's the real, organic punishment for suspected meatpuppetry. A block is disproportionate and ultimately unnecessary.<br /> <br /> ::Regardless, it's clear by what rpeh said that he thought that the basic interest this wiki has in promoting participation is important enough that in this case the mere ''suspicion'' of Haysie as a sockpuppet or an inappropriate meatpuppet was not enough to officially discount her vote. Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:18, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}}The one counting the votes would have been Daveh, and guidelines say that a vote can be discounted if meatpuppetry is suspected. While we couldn't prove or disprove it, there was some evidence for it. I also see nothing wrong with suspicions. We could even ask Haysie herself.<br /> <br /> :::I agree that the single incident would not be a blockable offence, but the multiple incidents that took place in February and the vote are all somewhat similar. If not insults, they are rather close to them, and have been far too frequent to be simple accident. I do not know if it directly fits into the [[wikipedia:disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] category, but it seems to follow the point of ''&quot;Their edits often avoid gross breaches of civility, by refraining from personal attacks, while still interfering with civil and collaborative editing meant to improve the article.&quot;'' <br /> <br /> :::What do you mean by ''&quot;Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place.&quot;''? What is the &quot;it&quot;? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, rpeh's thesis that nothing disqualified Haysie from voting remains true; Haysie had the right to vote, even if Daveh has the right to discount it. So rpeh becomes guilty of throwing up a straw man (again, not a blockable offense, just a subversive method of argument that may not have been intentional). Rpeh is abrasive with people when he thinks he's right and he's being ignored. I don't think he will deny that, or even wants to. But he's certainly not interfering with my ability to be civil or collaborate.<br /> <br /> ::::He's not swearing, he's not spamming, all of his comments, while apparently unpopular, have been related to the site and placed appropriately, and all there is against him in terms of fraud is ungrounded suspicions. That's just the simple state of affairs right now. Do you think the person I just described should be blocked? <br /> <br /> ::::For that last sentence, I meant that whether we agree with the reasoning of rpeh as I had proposed it, it's enough that he was positively contributing (as ironic as that terminology may seem). The &quot;it&quot; was his reasoning. We don't have to agree, for example, with rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment, but in this context, I believe it's necessary to conclude that he had no basis for coming to that conclusion to hold him accountable with a block for expressing such an opinion. I believe he had some substantive, legitimate reason(s) for his opinion, poorly explained and possibly misconstrued as they may have been, so it would be wrong to silence him for uttering that opinion. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} Calling people sycophants and disgraces for attempts to contribute and mentions of site policy, calling someone incompetent simply because he has done more on maps, and just about calling someone's edits useless and perhaps detrimental (''&quot;doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates&quot;'') doesn't sound like comments that have been site-related and appropriately placed. I also forgot his comment about the whole nomination being a façade, which is really uncalled for, unless there's some huge underlying issues that I'm completely missing. He's free to express his opinion, but bringing strong emotions and perceived plots into play isn't the way to do it. <br /> <br /> :::::To address a point I missed earlier, I don't think that the wiki's policy on meatpuppetry should be discussed in terms of this conversation, if you've got feelings about changing it. Whether or not it's acceptable is a unique issue on its own, and I'm fairly certain it's policy (written or unwritten) to not alter policy while events regarding the policy are going on or in the middle of such an event. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I feel similar to how ThuumofReason is feeling. Anyway, I agree that in no way were there any clear personal attacks. Though I was under the impression that meat puppetry was a good reason to block, and I find it rather obviously so to be the case ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 01:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Meatpuppetry is a form of fraud, just like sockpuppetry, and I presume it's blockable. The rub is that sockpuppetry is sometimes hard to spot but usually easy to prove, while meatpuppetry is usually easy to spot but almost impossible to prove with any reasonable degree of certainty. It may be just a disguised form of sockpuppetry. You're essentially trying to argue ''res ipsa loquitur'', the thing speaks for itself; I say you need more to go on. How do we know Haysie doesn't participate as an anon while at school or work? How do we know the account wasn't started in good faith? How do we know that they made an agreement for Haysie to support rpeh's goals? And even assuming Haysie has a standing agreement to take certain positions and never contributes beyond that, how do we know that agreement is with rpeh? I'm not asking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt like this is a courtroom, just something that doesn't turn this into a witch hunt. So I just don't see how a block is necessary or just in these circumstances. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}Would asking Haysie be appropriate in this situation? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:56, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Certainly, if you feel that would be productive. For the moment, I'm just thinking about how easy it would be to frame or be framed for suspected meatpuppetry in the future. Someone who doesn't like what I'm saying could be making an account right now at the local coffeeshop, under a different IP, saying their old buddy Minor Edits told them to join the UESP. Times goes by, eventually someone will have a problem with me. Then this inactive account suddenly starts making comments in support of me, someone takes notice, and I'm blocked on the mere suspicion of meatpuppetry. It would be so ''easy''. I don't know about big conspiracies, but there are certainly ''plenty'' of individuals out there with a bone to pick with rpeh. All it takes is one crazy person, and since this is the internet, is it really all that unlikely that someone will do this eventually? And regardless of what you think of rpeh or the truth behind Haysie, do you think that other person really deserves to be framed and blocked? [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I don't know about blocking policy on meatpuppets, just with throwing out their votes if suspected. I feel it may be productive to ask Haysie about it, as if she admits to being asked by rpeh to add a voice or to being pointed towards the discussion by him then that would prove it, whereas other answers would disprove it or stay ambiguous. Don't forget to assume good faith--without that, we'd all be seeing conspiracies, in which case we might as well say that [[User:JR|JR]] is trying to slowly remove me from patrollership by gradually pointing out [[User_talk:Velyanthe#Fun_with_Grammar:_Compound_Modifiers_.28Compound_Adjectives.29|grammar issues]].<br /> <br /> ::I don't hold much opinion on whether or not Haysie is a meatpuppet, nor do I have huge issues with rpeh based on her vote (since we can't prove it in the first place). It's everything else I've mentioned that I have issues with, but please note that my opinions aren't very strong. <br /> <br /> ::I don't think that the fact that most of rpeh's posts were from two months ago really matters either, since his attitude has been similar recently and he has been negative towards RH70 in the same manner, even after taking a break. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 02:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::To be honest, I don't agree with Rpeh's block. However, since AKB just went and blocked him like that, without discussing it with other admins, also threathening to resign if his actions were considered to be wrong (as would be the case should the block be removed), there wasn't much I could do. Considering the whole drama, I didn't feel the need to make AKB look bad as well, so I tried to support him in the block (we already look bad as it is). Though I really think that the meat puppetry is a good reason to warrant a block. Since it cannot be proved, but the term exist and is a reason to block, well then someone has to take a look at the facts and decide on their own whether this is legit or not. And I believe it is not. I've put forth what I can call evidence. Perhaps we need more opinions from other admins/patrollers ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::That's the thing; what exactly is meatpuppetry? Just pointing a new or existing member towards a discussion is not enough to warrant blocking a person. As I said earlier, I think that's just electioneering 101. People have posted on my talk page before asking me to take a look at a particular conversation where some important matter was being decided; I don't consider that to be unjustified, and such behavior should be protected. That's just fundamentally about encouraging participation in the site, which is rarely a bad thing. For a meatpuppet, I think you need someone who joined ''and'' participated for, in practice, the sole benefit of another user's agenda pursuant to an agreement between them. That's pretty hard to prove. If Haysie would be willing to confess to this arrangement, it would rule out some other possibilities, although not the possibility of framing I mentioned.<br /> <br /> ::::Rpeh's comments in Feb. were at least borderline; I believe he acknowledged this is true. All I can do is reiterate that criticism, negativity, whatever you want to call it, is not necessarily unconstructive site participation. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::This is basically just talking in a circle now. As of now, as far as I see it, the majority of the users who have either felt the block was justified with the reasons I've given or would be justified (maybe under different parameters, I assume) if it were for the perceived meat puppetry (which he has more or less denied, though he never explicitly denied any relation with Haysie). Says most of the remaining arguing seems to revolve around whether his actions count as personal attacks (which I and many others consider them to be), and whether certain contributions should even count at all (I consider them to be valid due to the lack of any activity on the site between them). As of now, arguing over this isn't going anywhere, and I don't see the purpose of continued discussion on this subject. Unless Haysie intends to respond (and since there are already claims that this may be an elaborate frame job, I'm not entirely sure those opposing this would count any statement as genuine, meaning this discussion would just continue even further without any progress), or rpeh wishes to provide reasons for what he intends to do if he is allowed to edit again (which is a critical part of the appeal process), then I suggest we call this done. As of now, I don't see anyone persuading anyone else with any argument imaginable. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} I apologize for prolonging this discussion. However, I started writing these comments before AKB's last post, and I think they still have some merit even if the discussion is coming to an end; perhaps they'll give a few editors some new perspectives.<br /> <br /> In brief, I think rpeh's recent edits have been disruptive, and that some action to prevent further disruptions is necessary. Therefore, a block is appropriate. I had been thinking that a less severe administrative action might also be equally effective. Paradoxically, however, rpeh's appeal request leaves me more in favor of the block than I previously had been. Without his appeal, I'd been able to give him the benefit of the doubt. But if rpeh can't provide any reasons why we should think that his edits will be any less disruptive in the future -- or can't even tell us that the block might prevent him from making constructive edits -- then I feel no need to invent such reasons on his behalf.<br /> <br /> In my opinion, rpeh's recent actions have not been appropriate. Although no single sentence of rpeh's is a red-flag, unambiguous disruption and/or personal attack, his contributions need to be evaluated as a whole, not word-by-word. Overall, he has made repeated inflammatory comments, without any intervening productive contributions to the site. Each of his comments in Robin Hood's RfA was 100% negative; there was no redeeming value in terms of constructive suggestions -- unlike every other editor with a substantive oppose vote. He has not followed up with anything to lessen the negativity of those comments. His block appeal would have been a perfect opportunity to provide some type of explanation or extend an olive branch. However, he hasn't even acknowledged that the community has concerns about those edits.<br /> <br /> I whole-heartedly belive in Assume Good Faith -- but there has to be some minimal basis for assuming good faith, and the entire circumstances have to be taken into account, not just a single out-of-context sentence. Rpeh's comments were not made in error; there is no evidence that they're being misinterpreted. He has made no effort to say that he thinks there was anything inappropriate about his edits, or that anything about those edits should have been done differently. As a result, I just can't see any way to interpret his comments as well-intentioned edits that were supposed to benefit UESP. Rather, he simply appears to be venting, presumably because he is upset about being de-admined. He is completely entitled to be upset, and it's a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean that he is entitled to act out on UESP in response. He needs to be able to put the de-admin behind him and be willing to move forward -- otherwise I don't think he's ready to return to the site and return to being a productive editor.<br /> <br /> There is no questioning that in the past rpeh has been a valuable contributor to the site. However, Rpeh is not currently behaving/contributing in a manner consistent with a valuable contributor -- including the fact that he has not been making any productive edits. We need to make decisions based upon the current situation. In my opinion, allowing him to continue editing right now is only likely to lead to more inflammatory, negative comments posted on talk pages and noticeboards. Allowing those edits to continue will cause more disruption and harm to UESP, and therefore the community is justified in trying to prevent more such edits.<br /> <br /> Rpeh has made no attempt to convince the community that lifting the block will benefit the site -- even though the [[UESPWiki:Blocking_Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Appealing Blocks]] section explicitly recommends including such information in an appeal. Rpeh doesn't even suggest that he is planning to contribute to the site. Editing UESP is not a constitutional right. It is a privilege given to editors solely because we want to allow editors to help improve the site. People who don't want to improve the site don't need edit rights. Also, talking about courts of law and judicial evidence standards is irrelevant -- we're not talking about a decision that sends someone to jail. UESP decisions arguably are more like a group of friends deciding who to invite to a party than a court of law.<br /> <br /> All of which leads me to conclude that some action needs to be taken by the community to prevent rpeh from causing more disruption. A block accomplishes that goal. One argument against the block is that no warning was given first. AKB has already rightly pointed out that admins have the discretion to block without first providing a warning. One purpose of a warning is to make sure that the editor knows the site's rules and policies -- not necessary in this case. Another is to tell the editor that his behavior has been inappropriate -- but rpeh has already been told exactly that in the whole de-admin process. That was a pretty unambiguous message that the community disapproves of his negative comments directed at other editors. Placing a bright pink official warning message on rpeh's talk page immediately after de-admining him would have been rubbing salt in open wounds. Ultimately, a warning message is given in the belief that it may be sufficient to change the editor's behavior and prevent a block -- but based on rpeh's past behavior when given warnings, and based on his current argumentative responses, I see no reason to think that he would have paid any serious attention to a warning.<br /> <br /> Also, I think three months is an appropriate duration given that in the two months since the de-admin, rpeh has shown no signs of moving past that event.<br /> <br /> A final factor here is that we are talking about an existing block. Administrative decisions are judgement calls. In this case, AKB made a good-faith, thought-out decision based on the situation at that time and the information available to him at that time. Second-guessing after the fact whether that was the single best possible course of action at that point in time isn't really helpful. The question now is whether there is a definitive reason why the original decision needs to be changed. In his block appeal, rpeh didn't provide any reasons for how UESP would benefit if the the block was lifted, and I'm not aware of any such arguments from other editors.<br /> <br /> Given AKB's above comments, I think it may simply be best to close this discussion. However, if other editors still think that there are reasons why we need to lift the block -- reasons why that would be better for UESP than leaving it in place -- then I think those editors need to provide an alternative proposal about what can be done to prevent continued disruptions. Even though I strongly feel that simply lifting the block and doing nothing is the wrong course of action, that doesn't mean that there aren't other possible compromise solutions. I think any continuation of this discussion needs to be focussed on identifying such compromises/alternatives -- on finding a consensus rather than just voting. Otherwise, I agree with AKB that it's best to call this done. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Emotions are running high ==<br /> <br /> *Everyone here has a common interest or two, and that is the glue that holds this fan-site together. We could all be friendly.<br /> <br /> *We all contribute a little and use the great resource built by everyone for our own entertainment. This wiki is a group effort.<br /> <br /> *Feelings are what drive our editors to edit and all the other actions we do. Emotions are our brains way of helping us make decisions.<br /> <br /> So please consider these three things as you argue over the finer points which must be made. This site is one of the best quality on the internet, and I wish for it to stay on top. While participating in this drama, I implore you all to think about what your choice of action means to everyone including yourselves. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#000;padding:4px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Lukish|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0F0;&quot;&gt;Lukish&lt;span style=&quot;text-decoration:blink;&quot;&gt;&amp;#95;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; [[User talk:Lukish|Tlk]] [[Special:Contributions/Lukish|Cnt]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protection Template ==<br /> <br /> To make Admins' lives easier, I've updated the {{tl|Protection}} template to work almost identically to how page protection actually works. The template is mostly backwards compatible with how you're used to doing things, but it's no longer necessary to specify &quot;move&quot; as the second parameter. The move protection level is now assumed to be identical to the edit protection level. Apart from that, the biggest difference is how you specify pages that are ''only'' move-protected, which is now: {{tlx|Protection|move{{=}}full}}. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection Request ==<br /> <br /> Not 100% where to request protection so, can I request semi-protection status for [[Skyrim:No Stone Unturned]]. It is not heavily edited, but there is very little being added to the page by any of the edits, it's nearly as good as can be, and it's a waste of time to keep undoing the semi-useless/non-specific information that keeps being added. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;<br /> : Hey Silencer! Sorry, but even if the page appears as “good as it gets” it still contains a vn-tag, a poorly formatted bugs section (filled with the forbidden words ‘sometimes’, ‘for some players’ and ‘may’), so it needs more work. Besides, we rarely semi-protect articles based on heavy traffic, unless it’s repeated vandalism or heavy edit warring. Unless some of the other administrators disagree, I’d recommend taking a deep breath and just keep looking after the page and make sure it's up to standards. All the best, --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 09:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I agree with Krusty. Other than cases of heavy vandalism or edit warring, semi-protection is meant for pages where low-quality edits are ''very'' frequent (like [[SR:Glitches]], for example). Besides, the whole idea of the wiki is that anyone should be able to edit an article regardless of how good it already is, and there's almost always something that can be improved, even if the &quot;regular&quot; editors don't see it. I know it seems like a pain to keep maintaining an already very good page, but an easy &quot;undo&quot; just takes a few seconds. Traffic always slows down as the game ages, so I'm sure we'll survive ;). &lt;b&gt;[[User:Eshe|&lt;font color=&quot;navy&quot;&gt;eshe&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Eshe|&lt;font color=&quot;navy&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MediaWiki Upgrade to 1.19 ==<br /> <br /> Just an FYI that I'm in the process of upgrading the wiki to v1.19 of MediaWiki. Since we're running v1.14 this is a relatively involved process due to a number of custom changes we've made to the MediaWiki code as well as having to upgrade all the extensions, some of which are no longer needed since their functionality is now built into v1.19. There should be no downtime involved if everything goes well but I do expect there to be minor issues after the upgrade which will be dealt with as they appear.<br /> <br /> If there are any other MediaWiki related feature or extension requests just let me know as it would be easier to do everything at once. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 13:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> :That's nice. I recall viewing a recent blog post that suggested a upgrade :) --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 17:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=944800 2012-05-03T18:41:25Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: Undo revision 944797 by Krusty (Talk) Comments shouldn't be censored.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. For certain specific requests, see instead:<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Purge Requests|Purge Requests]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:New Page Requests|New Page Requests]]<br /> {{Archive Table|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|History|<br /> |History#Page Archives|Page Archives|<br /> |History#Past Administrative Requests|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == SEVERE caching issues on ths mobile site ==<br /> <br /> Title says it all. On a whim, I checked the CP on my iPhone, and it's '''way''' out of date. I'm talking December out of date. Hard refreshing did not fix it, so it's definitely server-side. When I log in, it takes me away from (and keeps me off of) the mobile site, so I can't purge it. Can someone please take a look at this? • &lt;font color=&quot;#4faf4f&quot;&gt;[[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:1.0&quot; title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot;&gt;&lt;font face=&quot;DragonscriptRegular&quot; size=&quot;3&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Jak Atackka|Talk]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Mass Proposed Deletion ==<br /> <br /> I'm going through and cleaning up [[Special:UnusedCategories]], and a lot of empty ''faction'' categories still exist. All 364 are listed below.<br /> {{Showhide|List of categories|2=<br /> Skyrim-Factions-put on doors to keep NPCs from opening<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-friends to both sides in MQ101<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-for the NPCs who can use the load door<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for party guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for guards in front<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for NPCs who should stay out of palace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunValtheimKeepBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunUstengravDraugrFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunRavenscarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFjolaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFactionAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SpiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SecureAreaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunLostKnifeCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionWarlockAttackedbySpiders<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderNormal<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderDocile<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurThrallFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurMikrulFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFaldarsToothDogAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-anyone in this won't fight with mq101 alduin<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Wolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WinterholdJailFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Winterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmAretinoResidenceFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmApothecaryFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Whiterun Guard Neutral Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WhiterunJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-White River Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Werewolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Warmaidens<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThiefFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WITavernPatronFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemySpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEUnaggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WESpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02NobleFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02BodyguardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERJ10EnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEPlayerFriend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJSMerchantHorseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS25EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS21HunterandDogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionB<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionA<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10SprigganFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10LumberjackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL08Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06ThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06LutreshFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL05Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07JorgenFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07DaetraFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAdventurerHorseRiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20WarlockFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE19BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16DeerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FrostAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FlameAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14SkeeverFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14DogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11SabreCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11MammothFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06PredatorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE05OrcFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE03EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire Thrall<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire PC Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Used to control DialogueOrcHunters conversations<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TownIrontreeMillFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves' Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-The Pale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thalmor - Fooled by PC disguise<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Tailor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TGTQ04 Niranye Attacks Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG09 Nightingale Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG08BMercerHatesPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG07 Vald Hates Player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG02 Aringoth Player Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T03HatePlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T01EnmonFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sybille Stentor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Storm Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Steward has already been blackmailed.<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Spriggan Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Soljund's Sinkhole Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SolitudeBluePalaceServants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sleeping Giant Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Slaughterfish Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Skooma Dealer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sinding<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SilverHandFactionPacified<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildNiranye<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildMallus<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildGulumEi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEnthir<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEndon<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanZaynabi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanMajhad<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanAtahba<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesHonningbrewMeaderyPost<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesDawnstarWindpeakInn<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rorikstead Manor Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Robber's Gorge Bandit Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Riverwood Trader Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Restoration Ritual Ghost Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last successful<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last failed<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is the player's active mission<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 2<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 1<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank 1 = Being Absorbed, 2 = Done<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Radiant Raiments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put in this faction to get WI follower comments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put dragon here when player absorbs power<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player set prisoner free (used to conditionalize packages, etc.)<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player is being escorted by a friend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player has accepted mission hooks from this field co<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player assaulted this NPC<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player Horse Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerWerewolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerMarriedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Penitus Oculatus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-POIVolcanicHunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Owners of the Common House<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Orthorn's Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Stormcloak<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Imperial<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Once the player gives the cow to the giant they are both permamently added to this faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Nilheim Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Immune to Mehrunes Razor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Captured by Bandits<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Moorside Inn Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageRivalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageCourtingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageAskedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthStewardOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them more suspicious in dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them enemies of the player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatPrisonerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatCaptorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Make dungeon creatures not attack me<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS08AlikrBaseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS06CultistFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletGuardEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02GrisvarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02ForswornFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinKillMargretFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinBeserk<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01TreasuryHouseEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01ConspiracyCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQGreybeardTrainingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQBladesSparringFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ306TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ304AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301SoldierDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301CombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206PastFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AncientAlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ202EnemyofPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201ThalmorEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201FriendDistractionDoneFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103SonsOfSkyrimSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103ImperialSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ102ChatterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101StormcloakFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101LokirEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101ImperialFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG05CreatureFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG03 Caller Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG02BossNonCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Largashbur Orcs<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kyne's Peace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kolskeggr Mine Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Karthwasten Guard<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-KarthwastenPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobStewardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobPriestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHousecarlFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobCarriageFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Ice Wraith Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunters of Hircine<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunter Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horker Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horgeir's House Occupants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Honningbrew Meadery<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Great Council Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Gray Pine Goods<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Giant Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Frost Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Forsworn Dog Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ForceFullBodyStagger<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For intimidate brawling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For dailogue when Thalmor have prisoner with them<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fletcher<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Flame Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fisherman Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fence<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellstar Farm Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellglow Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowIntimidateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowBribeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer Servant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FalkreathJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Exiled Government<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Eorlund Gray-Mane<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Enemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-East Empire Company<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DunAnsilvundBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dummy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dremora Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DragonsreachBasementGuards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DismissedFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Wndhelm Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Haafingar Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Falkreath Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Dawnstar Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Death won't trigger WIKill04<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dark Brotherhood Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Daedra<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB RecurringTarget 9 CrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Player Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Gianna Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DBCiceroDawnstarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB09 Door Lock Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Player Hate Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Orc Dream Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16OrcAmbushFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16ErandurFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11GlooredhelAllyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11CannibalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11AttackPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA10PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA09TemporaryDragonFriendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA08SelfPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07RazorOwnerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA03VampireFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02GuardsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ElisifAfraidOfPlayer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CultistsAreEnemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CulistsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ConduitPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01NelacarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentHireling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crowd Spectator<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crew of the Red Wave<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Condition on Spectator Idle Anims<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatHateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsSingleCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold Arch-Mage Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Evoker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Apprentice<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Chaurus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Can show up at battles in this hold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSurrenderTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierDefenderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierAttackerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierArcherFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWinterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWhiterun<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionRift<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionReach<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionPale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionHjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionFalkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08EnemyToGiant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission04PrisonerFreedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission03BedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortPatrolExteriorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortJailorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortGatekeeperFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortCommanderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWFinaleTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDisaffectedSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToDefendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWCivilianFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06PlayerWolfSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06KodlakAndWolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00JorrvaskrFightingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00GiantHuntFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Hunter<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Collector<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Blue Palace Guard for DA02<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BladesRecruitsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bits and Pieces<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardNoRequestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardAudienceMarker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bannered Mare Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaSelfLoathingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Allowed Faction for Execution Guard Package<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Agents of the Black Marsh<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-After Hadvar/Ralof get to know you, they are in this faction - used to conditionalize dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-1 = Imperial, 2 = Stormcloak supporter<br /> }}<br /> <br /> Now, some of these are just alternative descriptions of currently used faction categories, but some are used temporarily for individual quests. I am not too sure these should be kept as categories, though; rather, they should be described on the faction page. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :So, after thinking about, I want to go ahead and propose all empty faction pages for deletion. I really do not believe they serve a purpose by &quot;being empty&quot;; it doesn't really add to the fact that there is no one in that faction. So any of them found on [[Special:UnusedCategories]] are ''officially'' proposed for deletion. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Being 10 days old now, these can be deleted. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Done. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::Thanks! Not to be picky, but my second comment prodded ALL of the faction pages, which includes Tes3Mod and Morrowind. However, I still want opinions regarding those. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 02:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::And Oblivion, right? Well, they would be useful, if we could determine who is ever a member of the group. However, I see no way of going through the game scripting to determine who joins what faction. As such, I don't see a problem with them being deleted. However, I think we should err on the side of caution with Tes3mod factions, as all of those factions are a part of Tamriel Rebuilt, which is still a work in progress. We may have a need for them yet. The others however, should be deleted. If we were going to figure out a way to add all relevant NPCs to their factions, surely we would of done this already when the bots were running. Most of them also appear to only exist for the PC, so there intended purpose (categorizing what NPC is in what faction), can never be fulfilled as the faction only exists for the PC. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Actions to be Made ==<br /> <br /> This is a list of actions that I believe are required to be made for this community to continue to function. After recent actions, many users have been driven away from the site due to a number of recent actions and a rise in drama. Some of these actions were only made possible by a degree of mercy to those involved, which obviously did not work out for the best. While these actions will appear to be rather dramatic in themselves, I don't think this site can continue until we get past this. I've given this quite a bit of thought, so I hope this comes off as logical as I can manage. As a final note before I begin listing my reasons for these actions I'm about to make and my request for several others to be done for actions I cannot make myself, I sincerely apologize that I did not make them earlier.<br /> <br /> #[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] is to be blocked immediately. After his removal from the administration of the site, very few of his actions couldn't arguably be considered a personal attack, or at least disruptive. As examples, take [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 this] (where he insulted the founder of the site, and is grounds for immediate block in itself), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 this] (which while not a personal attack, is in no way polite, violating our Etiquette guidelines), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 this] (while there is nothing wrong with opposing a nomination, there is something wrong with making accusations about someones personal behavior (i.e. accusing Robin of sucking up to other editors to get his way) without evidence to back it up), and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 this] (where he described Robins actions as a &quot;Total disgrace&quot;). For these actions, I do not see how continuing to allow rpeh to edit will benefit the community when I can find only two actions (replies to messages on his talk page) since his de-adminning that hasn't been disruptive or have been grounds for blocking, I find it hard to defend allowing him to continue to edit for now. If he wishes to contribute positively, I will be both willing to listen to a block appeal and unblock him if the community agrees that he wishes to provide assistance to the site as an editor again.<br /> #&lt;s&gt;[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] should have his administrative rights removed for the foreseeable future. While his most recent activity was him announcing he wishes to take a wikibreak, he did return to leave [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934980 this opposition] to Robin's RFA. In it he showed contempt for several editors, accusing them of being part of a conspiracy to make certain decisions, and generally accused many recent actions of being idiocy. However, that is not all of his recent actions that was not appropriate for any user, let alone an administrator to make. He also pointed out a few of his other offenses, such as his actions during the request fro de-adminship for rpeh. See the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25#Request for a New User Group|Request for a New User Group]], where he responded to the discussion with &quot;Please, can we stop this idiocy?&quot; to a discussion that had been up to that point as far as I can see, a perfect example of how a discussion should go down. What is more perplexing is that a previous comment of his from the same discussion was a perfectly reasonable opposition, with him explaining rationally why he did not want to see the group created. Further comments along those lines would of probably had even convinced me that the group was a bad idea, with me being the one to propose it! Another action of his in response to discussions about the group (from what I understand) in the [[UESPWiki:IRC|IRC]] led to him [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive 24#Kicking.2FBanning of Dwarfmp and Elliot|Banning Dwarfmp and Elliot]] from the channel. While I do not request that Krusty be blocked (though it wouldn't be hard to find a reason), I believe that a self-imposed break may be better. Krusty has already voiced his wish to do just this, and I just ask that he does not take part in any site discussions and only work on uncontroversial edits if he chooses to not take a break for the immediate future, I don't see it necessary to demand he does this unless he wishes to cause further drama in the community.&lt;/s&gt;<br /> #Being lenient on administrators and long time editors for inappropriate actions must cease. Throughout this site's history administrators are given much more leeway than any other group of users on the site. This is ridiculous. Administrators and long time editors should be held to a higher standard if anything, not a lower one. Making excuses for &quot;bad days&quot; and the ilk needs to come to an end. If anything, these editors should clearly be the ones to know when they need to log off for the night, or when they shouldn't take part in a conversation, or if they do, they must be as diligent as possible to remain getting upset over it. These past few months have been all the proof we will ever need for this consensus to ignore the wrong doings of certain users does not benefit the site in anyway whatsoever. It's not like this isn't the first time that this hasn't led to problems for the site, and I'm not entirely sure this was even the worse fallout due to this, but I do intend it to be the last if I can. The amount of damage done to our community due to this unofficial policy may very well be irreversible, but it does not need to be repeated.<br /> <br /> While some other users may have made inappropriate reactions over the last few days, I do not intend to bring those to light as I believe them to only be unfortunate reactions to the actions of others. This may very well be one of them for all I know. Just to make it clear, I do not wish ill will to any user for any recent action, I'm merely doing what I think is necessary here. Some seem to think that there is such a thing as an entirely happy, one-minded community. I don't think this is the case, nor has it ever been the case. Users have always disagreed on issues throughout this sites history, which is only appropriate for any community-driven site. No community can hope to be one-minded without becoming stagnant. However, divisions with thought between users does not need to be expressed with hostility, and it shouldn't. While discussions can be emotional, expressing your emotions rationally and logically without attacking the other sides is absolutely necessary for discussions to happen without people getting upset and leaving. <br /> <br /> While only one of these actions I can immediately make (blocking rpeh). I ask that you all agree that my other two recommended courses of action need to be made. <br /> <br /> For all of the users who have left these past few days, I do ask that you return when you wish to. I apologize that administrative action on my part wasn't taken earlier to keep these recent issues from getting so sullied. I erroneously thought that inaction was the best action. For those who wish to leave specifically because of my actions, I simply ask that you explain to me what I did wrong so I may rectify my actions. Finally, if the community feels it is I in the wrong here for what I'm about to do, I would like you to consider this my resignation from all duties relating to this site. I bear no hard feelings to any of you if you feel this is the case. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I do not disagree with your actions and I very much agree with them, especially the third proposal, which appears to be a reason for lots of drama around here lately and the cause for allowing tension to rise so high. I am glad that someone is taking action in some way, and it's been needed for a while now. Late action is better than inaction. Hopefully things will cool down now. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:26, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::We all know that this RH thing has been controversial, but there's really no reason to ragequit because of it. Any issues that the community has should be resolved by the community, and that can only happen when we have the whole community. People have different opinions about things, and suggesting that people's opinions classify them into &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever only invites trouble. I see so many people holding grudges against either Krusty or RH that they're unwilling to view any action taken by those users in an objective light.<br /> ::Now, maybe it's because I don't use IRC, but I never noticed either Krusty OR RH making edits that couldn't be justified as improvements, and I certainly never noticed any &quot;cliques&quot; forming. Either way, this is a site dedicated to cataloguing knowledge about TES. The reason we registered is because, as a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games. This site is OUR &quot;clique&quot;, as it were. The concept of cliques developing within cliques is one that disturbs me, because just by registering, we've all signed on to the only clique that needs to exist.<br /> ::In short, by ragequitting over something as insignificant as this, you're taking your own voice out of the equation; more importantly, you're taking your valuable contributions out of the equation. &quot;The wiki is going downhill&quot; is not a logical justification for quitting, because as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it. The only real way for the wiki to go downhill is for all of its most valued contributors to leave. If you really care about the quality of the wiki, you won't take the easy way out every time there's a setback. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 22:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I am adding Thuums comments here because I feel they are appropriate (He also needs an explaination from you AKB). There is definately a feeling among some users of cliques forming for whatever reason, and that does need looked at. I can't disagree with blocking rpeh in consideration of constant removal of subjects from this page, however care should be taken with everyone else. Feelings are running high at this time and consideration is due before taking further action. I joined after this happened and the fact it is still running shows how much people care about this, but a line needs to be drawn, we need to move on from this and forget about it, things happened, who gives a sh*t, well we all do but its getting us nowhere, so for the good of us all we need to move on, give everyone else one chance, and breath. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do not endorse the comments of rpeh or Krusty in this instance; I disagreed with them on the underlying issue. But they had the right to speak their minds. I think blocking rpeh was wrong; all he did was express an opinion you disagree with. His comments regarding Robin were very harsh, but were they personal? They were tailored to RH's conduct and performance on the site, and anyone who accepts a nomination has to be open to hearing some criticism. I don't think pulling up non-profane comments from two months ago helps justify a three-month block for expressing his opinion on the merits of Robin as a candidate for adminship (and that was, after all, the subject). These aren't personal attacks, these are attacks some people are taking too personally. I think the number of people who changed their votes evidence that the opinions and arguments of rpeh and Krusty were persuasive to some people, and it seems to me that's what they were designed to do: persuade, not insult. De-adminning Krusty would be similarly inappropriate. I don't mean to be overly-dramatic, but in my opinion you are in the process of punishing them for dissenting. This isn't right. <br /> <br /> ::::And can we just stop for a moment and recognize this is all politics? Rpeh and Krusty's opposition to Robin has nothing to do with his skill or trustworthiness. They oppose him because they don't want him having a greater voice or be given deference in making site policy. And you, similarly, are now acting to reduce their voice and influence. The fact is, no one would make a rant like Krusty's rant against Robin unless they cared deeply about this wiki's future. Daveh should count his lucky stars to have an admin that cares that much. Rpeh has done enough for this wiki for his opinion to be worthy of some consideration, despite the (understandable) lack of substantive contributions recently. You've found yourself in this situation where their dedication has become an annoyance to you, so you want them marginalized. Well, things always go smoother when you stifle the complainers, but sometimes disagreement is healthy. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::At this point, I really can't make a point without repeating those of others; oh well: here's my two cents. Though I've been mostly silent, throughout most of the recent drama, I've been keeping up on most everything major on this site (particularly on the AN and CP), and due to my detached view of things, I feel that my view is a little more objective than those involved.<br /> :::::#Though in the past I've generally sided with rpeh (so as to not digress here, I more or less agree with Krusty's opinion on the matter). I feel that ES's actions were the beginning of the end for this wiki; the site has, for the few months since, been nothing but a place for outrageous accusations, which in turn get short and rude responses, and a site where two separate schools of thought battle for dominance (best illustrated by the arguments between Krusty and RH70). While I am not of a mind to think that there is a conspiracy on this site (nor do I think anyone thinks that; I honestly see no place where Krusty literally says that certain editors are conspiring to bring this wiki down), I do think that Krusty was referring to said schools of thought when he mentioned &quot;cliques&quot;. On the one side, you have people like myself and Krusty, who feel that rpeh's de-adminning was unnecessary and an overreaction to *off-site behavior*, and that this site has been seized with a peculiar fever of &quot;less is more&quot; (no offense Minor Edits xD); by that, I mean that people seem to think that small additions and patrolling are more important than quality control and running a detailed, consistent site. On the other hand, you have users such as RH70 (who I am actually just as fond of as I am of Krusty, rpeh, ME, Legoless, or AKB, though I don't know him quite as well) feel opposite. I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is better than anyone else's, however this is undoubtedly one of the roots of the tensions here on UESP. In that respect, I do not agree with Thuum of Reason: yes, Krusty has every reason to quit, and yes these recent events do imply a downhill spiral; that's my opinion, in any event. <br /> :::::#As for rpeh's blocking: a month ago I would have said no. However, his recent behavior and constant attacks on other users show that he does not deserve to remain as an editor on this site for the time being. Since he is unwilling to take time to cool off of his own accord, we have little choice but to force him to do so. However, I would also ask that users refrain from making attacks on the past of rpeh and users like him; this is one reason why they continue to harbor resentment towards users on this site. So please, just realize that it takes two (many more in this case) to tango.<br /> :::::#On the second count, however, I must disagree. I myself see no real reason to remove Krusty's admin rights; he is already taking a wikibreak, and aside from one (understandable) intrusion in a recent RfA voting session, he shows no signs of doing what rpeh has done.<br /> :::::#I couldn't agree more with this last section. Although I may seem sympathetic towards rpeh and Krusty, it is only because they are human, not because they are senior editors. It is their nature (as it is mine or that of, say, Elliot, who is another member I hold in high esteem despite his participation in drama past and present) to quickly become short with users when it comes to what we perceive as injustices or foolish moves. I just tend to walk away, which is why nobody notices (to my knowledge); that's not really possible when you're a senior editor like the aforementioned users. However, though I understand this, I extend no extra rights towards these users, nor do I wish to have any such rights extended to myself should I ever become regarded as a &quot;senior editor&quot;.<br /> :::::Since this basically outlines how I feel about the state of UESP at the moment, I think I'll go ahead and go back to my wikibreak (despite what my page says, I am on a break for the weekend as far as editing goes). Happy editing everyone!--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}{{ec}} Minor Edits has hit the nail on the head. I agree to everything he's said above. Especially about rpeh's so called personal attacks: they were harsh, but not personal or uncalled for per se; and also especially about Krusty's devotion to the site, and the politics.. everything! That doesn't mean you're WRONG, AKB, definitely no reason to resign! Also, regarding me being banned from the IRC was a reaction of Krusty's frustration with how he thought the wiki was going downhill. He admits that was a big mistake and has apologized, and as far as I'm concerned it never happened ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :{{ec}}x2- I refrained from adding any comments to the RfA after Krusty's post because I thought keeping silent was the only way I could help to minimize the drama. Still, I have a billion things I would like to say, and have now typed out and deleted so many of them that it's taken me over twenty minutes to write two sentences...&lt;p&gt; I think that AKB has summed up so much of what needs to be said in a very logical and rational manner, and I agree with him on many (but not all) points. Since I didn't become an active editor until just before Rpeh left, I can't say much in regard to blocking him based on past history, but I do agree that his most recent contributions have been disruptive. Perhaps a warning would be best? Then, one more disruptive contribution would result in a block. That seems fair to me. As for Krusty, I don't think removing any administrative rights is necessary or appropriate, especially given his self-imposed break. And the third proposal is spot on. There's no point in having policies, rules, or guidelines if they only apply to the masses. Though I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency AKB may be referring to, I agree with this one ''on principle'' completely. There's no reason not to have the same standards for everyone.&lt;p&gt; There are a couple of Thuum's comments which really stick out to me: ''As a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games... as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it.'' I have grown to love this site and its community, and while people will always have differences in opinion, I believe we can find a way to continue improving both the site and our interactions with one another. This should be fun and enjoyable, not tense, stressful, or drama-ridden. I do hope that anyone who has left in frustration over recent drama decides to return soon; it disappoints me to see them go, and think having them around can only benefit the site and its community. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}}x3-To reply to Kalis, it's small additions and patrolling versus quality control and consistency? Is that what this battle is all about? I don't know, but for the record, I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive, nor do I think one is more important than the other. It seems to me it's more about personality conflicts making people lose perspective on why we're here. <br /> <br /> ::Here's my polestar: this should be the best, and preferably only, TES wiki around. I don't see any reason for another TES wiki to exist, and time people spend editing such sites is better spent here. To achieve total market capitalization, you fundamentally need numbers. Great numbers of editors brings great diversity of skills. Diversity allows for specialization. Specialization allows for maximized opportunity cost, meaning we get greater returns for the amount of time editors invest in this wiki over others. That maximized return on editors' time naturally produces a better product, and a better product means greater and greater popularity. Growth is readers brings growth in editors and the wiki just keeps refining itself. But it begins with numbers, and to grow and maintain your ranks, you can't sweat the small stuff. I feel that should be a formal policy itself, or perhaps just a corollary to the etiquette policy: &quot;don't sweat the small stuff&quot;. You people can antagonize each other over petty garbage until the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards, or you can be tolerant, and allow each other to make the wiki better in whatever ways you each can. Since I still think that's what rpeh and Krusty want to do, make the wiki better, I continue to support them. Making sure the UESP remains a big tent is the only way for it to reach its full potential. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::ABCface managed to say exactly what I was miserably failing to articulate. Blocking rpeh would be a rash move that, although justifiable, would do little more than strain the website even more. People are still peeved that he was de-adminned, and blocking him would only aggravate them more and prove little. De-adminning Krusty is also a terrible idea, which although certainly justifiable would also only harm the website even further. The last thing we need to do is take a hammer to the wiki at a time that it's so fragile.&lt;p&gt;As for the last proposal, I agree with it ''in principle'', but as ABCface said there's no reason ''not'' to have the same standards for everyone. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} People ''seriously'' need to stop defending rpeh. It is absolute insanity that people continue to... no. I'm going to call people out by name, because it needs to stop. [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], AKB didn't block rpeh because &quot;all he did was express an opinion [he] disagree[s] with&quot;. Rpeh made '''blatant''' personal attacks. The links provided by AKB are just a ''few'' of the disgusting remarks rpeh has made to other user around here. [[user:Alphabetface|Alphabetface]], we have given rpeh chance after chance after chance. Any other user would have been given the boot a long time ago. This is ''exactly'' what AKB means by providing experienced users with a different standard. [[user:Jak Atackka|Jak Atackka]], decision about retaining the integrity of the wiki shouldn't be based on &quot;who will this piss off&quot;. If a user has been poison to the wiki, then that poison must be removed. Plain and simple. A hammer is needed, because nothing will change without it.<br /> <br /> Even if you don't believe rpeh should be blocked for making personal attacks, he should be blocked for using a meatpuppet in the administration vote. He's already used a sockpuppet before, so why this was ignored is beyond my comprehension.<br /> <br /> Now, AKB, I absolutely agree with every action you have taken and suggested. [[user:Krusty|Krusty's]] continued attacks towards new user and user who happen to focus on edits other than content edits are problematic. His actions are not that of an administrator. I had a person who had never been on the wiki, and his comments shocked the person. They even wondered why they had any authority at all. Now, that's essentially hearsay, but I felt it necessary to mention. <br /> <br /> The leniency towards experienced editors does indeed need to stop, even towards myself (although I believe I get the leniency less than other edits, such as rpeh and Krusty). Users should not be able to buy their way out of indiscretion with an edit count. <br /> <br /> Again, AKB, I thank you for decisiveness with this issue. It was definitely needed. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :{{ec}}I'll do my best to reply to everyone here in opposition to my actions and call for action. If I miss any points, I apologize<br /> <br /> :First to Silencer, there are no &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever you want to call them. There is nothing to suggest that there is besides a few accusations without evidence backing them. To be crass, this topic in itself is rather ridiculous. Who the hell would create a conspiracy around taking over the volunteer positions of a gaming site? I would not assume that there is any sort of unofficial organization acting unilaterally on the site. As I do not count current evidence as being conclusive, if anyone has more proof, please feel free to contact me privately to avoid a derail of current discussion.<br /> <br /> :Second to Minor Edits. All users can speak their mind, as long as they follow etiquette. Creating a hostile environment for users does not benefit any line of thought. They were indeed in violation of site etiquette as I interpreted them. Even if the points in question needed to be said for their opposition to count (and they did not, if they simply claimed that his actions when it came to patrolling and user relations were outside their standards, their would of been no issue), there were much less volatile ways to say them. Unless I have a much poorer grasp on the English language than previously believed, I don't see how I interpreted their comments incorrectly. I also wish to state that I hold a deep respect for both rpeh and Krusty, and even consider them to have been mentors to me in times of need. Finally, I wish to point out that I did not participate in Robin's RFA, the IRC (at all), rpeh's de-adminning, or the Request for a New Group shortly after starting it.<br /> <br /> :Third to Kalis Agea, I don't really consider myself to be of a similar line of thought as Robin when it comes to editing. I mainly add content, at least those are the edits I make that I care about. I would also add that I agree that attacking rpeh is inappropriate, as it is for literally anyone on the site to to do to anyone. I, however, can't find myself wishing to allow Krusty to remain an admin. He is a distinguished editor who has helped me more than I think I am capable of admitting without giving him credit for most of my NPC work. However, I don't see how allowing him to remain an admin helps us. He is human and prone to mistakes just as much as any of us are, but it's not like what we write is revealed in real-time. We have time to temper our reactions. If a user doesn't take the time to do that, especially for major posts, they are likely to make mistakes or say some really harmful things. Krusty did this, partially inspiring some users to leave. He has made a lot of errors recently when it comes to policy and user relations. Removing administrative rights will surely help cool down in the end. Ultimately, the option to become an admin again if the right is removed is still available. For now, he should not have the rights.<br /> <br /> :Fourth to Dwarf, I agree that Krusty is dedicated to the site. Dedication doesn't make one immune from making mistakes, even if they are out of love. As for him caring for site politics, what are these? We have ****ing politics? What the hell??? I thought we were just a bunch of fans of a game series creating a collaborative guide on it, not freaking politicians. If anyone has ever made a move for &quot;political&quot; reasons, then they don't get the purpose of the site, at least from what I've seen of it. Also, I only intend to resign if my third recommended course of action isn't met, which basically requires the other two to happen, I admit. I don't believe I can administrate this site if everyone gets into a frenzy over &quot;He said, she said, you can interpret this action or what this person said to mean this&quot; every few months. Especially when the current consensus suggests just not making any definitive actions to stop it.<br /> <br /> :Onto ABCface, lenience will not resolve these issues. The issues leading up to this were met with lenience, and we all saw what that lead to. Further leniency will only lead to continued problems.<br /> <br /> :Next onto Minor Edits second reply, not sweating the small stuff is what lead to these major problems. I don't see how you can consider them to be anything else when administrators are walking out. The best way to deal with the recent problems are the actions I suggested.<br /> <br /> :Finally to reply to Jak Attacka. Why in the same paragraph that you state that being lenient would be beneficial in this situation do you say that my call for an end to leniency is correct? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I'm interpreting what you wrote wrong, please correct me if I don't understand. Blocking rpeh doesn't strain the site in any way besides an emotional one that I admit I don't understand, he hasn't contributed positively for months. And I don't see how Krusty can't continue to edit without administrative rights for the foreseeable future. Administrative tools aren't a right, they are a privilege given to people we don't think will mess up with them (that badly). --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::My point on leniency was apparently not made clear. What I was trying to get across is that leniency is not tolerable. The same standards should apply to everyone-- whether they are admins or not. When I said &quot;on principle&quot; I didn't mean that I don't agree. I meant that I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency you were referring to. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}} In reply to elliot's comment about blocking for meatpuppetry, I'm not sure using a meatpuppet is a blockable offense. If it was a sockpuppet, sure, but a meatpuppet implies that rpeh or Krusty contacted ''someone else'' specifically to have them vote on the matter. That's just Electioneering 101. The meatpuppet's vote counts as much as the next person's, the only difference is that a suspected meatpuppet's opinion is far less persuasive to others, and may repulse some voters who would have otherwise voted in the same way as the meatpuppet. The punishment already fits the &quot;crime&quot;.<br /> <br /> :::I support AKB's third proposal, I just think he and I have different understandings on what constitutes leniency for long-time contributors and how to interpret the etiquette policy. I don't think I've extended long-term contributors any inherent privilege not available to a new editor. I think that's because I'm more lenient towards everyone in general- whether their anons, new accounts, or admins - compared to others. I think a big reason for this difference is that I never stop assuming good faith until I absolutely have to, regardless of how long someone has been contributing or what position they may have on the site. I extend to rpeh and Krusty the same courtesy I would give to any new user and presume that they are not here to cause trouble, but rather to make the wiki better. Re-reading their comments on Robin's RfA, I think the only way to conclude that either of them made a personal attack is by assuming that they made the appearance for malicious reasons, and not because they had legitimate reasons to oppose making Robin an admin. So in short, that's what I meant when I said don't sweat the small stuff: the assuming good faith policy should act as a guide for how to interpret and construe other policies. So, if there's any reasonable doubt about whether a person's comments violated the etiquette policy, for example, then the doubt should be decided in that person's favor. When it comes to the actions of rpeh and Krusty, I sincerely doubt that they have violated basic etiquette. Others have found what they had to say offensive, and thus imputed them with the intention to be disruptive and offensive. I don't think that's fair, so I won't hold to it. <br /> <br /> :::You're aces, AKB; I didn't mean to imply you were executing some kind of inappropriate vendetta against them. I assume good faith, and I guess I presume others will assume it in my words. And I hope that no one is assigning anger to me; I don't hold grudges, and I take pride in having a disagreement and resolving it amicably whether my opinion was heeded or not. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} You're right, my last point wasn't clear at all. I'm still trying to make sense of this entire situation. Just forget what I said there - I'm still undecided on the issue. I certainly agree with it in principle, but in action I always give a fair bit of leeway to our more experienced editors. Part of this is that as the representatives of our website, they have much more attention focused on them, and their mistakes are amplified. Part of it is blatant rationalization on my part - I'm still trying to figure out how much. That's a topic I've given a lot of thought yet still don't have a clear idea on. Looks like this'll be a busy weekend.&lt;p&gt;The way I see it, there are two different approaches to this obvious problem. The first is to approach the policy aspect of it. An editor abuses their privileges, they get punished. It does not matter who did it, they are all treated equally. The other approach is the personal aspect. This action will cause much more harm than good, so it shouldn't be done. Blindly applying policy versus completely ignoring it and allow our editors to do whatever they want because they have a high edit count. Both arguments are valid. I can't say which one I support, because frankly I don't know.&lt;p&gt;That's the abstract side of this whole debate. The literal side is how we treat the abuses themselves. I strongly dislike what rpeh did, and it is quite frankly disgraceful. I did defend him before, but after discussing it with [[User:Elliot|Elliot]] I've since changed my stance on the issue. I'm not sure about blocking him. On the one hand, I strongly dislike the idea of blocking people (besides IPs and spammers) because it'll most likely turn them off the wiki for good, but on the other hand I think rpeh is gone for good anyways. I am also unsure about Krusty's de-adminship, but I'm leaning towards opposing it (meaning he should stay admin).&lt;p&gt;If you are looking for my stance on the issues, they are currently undecided, undecided, and undecided. This discussion has given me food for thought, and I'm going to have to mull over this a while before I have anything meaningful to say. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break===<br /> <br /> {{od}} [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], please do not continue to ignore such behavior. Your type of thinking is precisely what has allowed this to go on for so long. Regardless, [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]] is a serious offense. <br /> :''Sock puppetry policy defines &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; as the recruitment of new editors to Wikipedia for the purpose of influencing or editing on a Wikipedia matter. This is forbidden, and new accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating. ([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Banning_policy|source]])<br /> Whenever we don't have an established policy, we defer to Wikipedia. Please also see the [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Agapetos_angel|Arbitration decision]] that banned a user and her meatpuppets. So yes, Minor Edits, it is blockable (see [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users|Wikipedia:List of banned users]] and just search for the term ''meatpuppet''). I don't know how I can make this point any clearer. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 07:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Alright, let's see if I can't pull of making a coherent post after all. :)<br /> ::Firstly, in response to Minor Edits, perhaps I should rephrase. The point I was trying to make (rather unsuccessfully) is that the idea of a &quot;clique&quot; and a schism of sorts is not so much literal (i.e. there is no conspiracy to take over the wiki on the part of any editor(s); I didn't get that message from Krusty's posts at all, as some others did). In no way am I trying to say that editing preferences are destroying the wiki (if only it were that simple!). Rather, I am saying that there are certain editors who already have something against a certain editor or other groups of editors (I hope that makes sense). These editors will find anything to use as ammunition against others, even something so trivial as editing preferences. I was merely supplying an example of the many-layered complexity that has become the drama of UESP.<br /> ::Now, as for AKB: I suppose I see your point; I also see that you are quite determined to see this through. I don't have any real reason to oppose point #2 other than that I don't yet known how Krusty feels about this. Once that is known, I will be able to say &quot;yea&quot; or &quot;nay&quot;, should this come to a vote.<br /> ::My main point in the first place was simply that the past few months have seen an unfortunate and dramatic turn of events with which I am highly dissatisfied; so much so that I have refrained from posting responses longer than a small paragraph on such issues. Even now, I see no reason to continue actively editing on such a site, especially when I have very little left to actually contribute to it time-wise. At the same time, I feel that I am most likely just overreacting and should just leave the site completely and come back with a level head; a fresh start, as it were. And for my part I intend to do so.--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::As much as I hate to admit it, rpeh has been making too many personal attacks lately. I don't have to like it, but if he can't be constructive, blocking him might be the best solution. That's the only thing I'll voice a definite stance on, as I'm still not sure where I stand on #2. I will say that before doing anything rash that will invite more trouble, we should take everything into consideration. As Krusty is always saying, we need to think of the consequences our actions will most likely have. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 11:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::AKB, I agree that there's leniency that causes a lot of trouble. And you're right about that it should stop. As Kalis Agea said, before we debate whether Krusty should be de-admined for a while or not, I'd rather hear what he has to say about it (because if he simply agrees with stepping down for a while, then why argue). As for rpeh's block, Elliot raised a good point regarding the meat-puppetry. I have absolutely no qualms with that block if the reason is changed to meat-puppetry. Seeing as you said it was simple recruitment, AKB, that just proves there's politics on the site. I agree that the whole politics business is bad for the wiki, because in the end, we're all headed towards the same goal: improving the wiki ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::I can't agree with either of points 1 or 2, i'll comment on the 'clique' as well. I wouldn't there has ever, or will ever, be a conspiracy. What I meant is: that whilst the two groups oppose each other they are obviously not putting as much thought into editing as they could be. Blocking rpeh can only possibly drive him away further, so thats an editor who has made 78944 edits being discarded for a further amount when he could be contributed positively to UESP? (Thats not counting the 81516 edits his bot made under his control). That just seems odd. Removing Krustys Admin rights in my opinion gets even odder, but I don't have much other than his contributions in either of there defenses. On the subject of coming back to vote, they both obviously felt the need to voice there opinions on the matter. I think the leniency levels work... to a degree. A bit more strict yes, (3 strikes and your out rule in regards to warnings?), but not by loads I don't think. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 14:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::[[user:Kiz|Kiz]], can you please tell me what makes up a personal attack in your mind? Calling a user a &quot;total disgrace&quot;? Calling a user a &quot;troll&quot;? I mean, please let me know, because apparently, rpeh can say whatever he wants, and you wouldn't care because you are afraid of &quot;driving him away&quot;. Did you miss the entire point of holding a double standard for experienced editors? '''Your thinking is part of the problem.''' And you also said that rpeh could have contributed positively... sorry, but from what rpeh has told me, he has no intentions of coming back, which makes his actions ''that'' much more worse. I could understand if this were his first time attacking another user, but it's not. This is just an endless cycle perpetuated by users who let him get away with it. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 17:20, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}If we're starting on personal attacks elliot, don't bother, you called me a troll in IRC which is no better at all, by your standards that makes you as bad as rpeh. I purposely avoided commenting on personal attacks, because I have no further comments on the matter. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 17:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I'd like to point out that saying I called him a troll is a complete fabrication. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :After some thought, I have to agree with [[user:Elliot|Elliot]] here and call for rpeh to be banned. I strongly dislike banning people, but rpeh has clearly violated the rules (with both [[User:RobinHood70/RfA|personal attacks]] and [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]]) and clearly has nothing constructive to add to this wiki. He can't hide behind his edit count, and people need to stop blinding themselves with his contributions. Rpeh needs to be banned. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I've taken some time to think about this, and in light of recent events, I feel it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment about what actions should be taken in regards to rpeh and Krusty, though I will say that I don't think it's fair to take any action ''in absentia''. Instead, I'll focus on point three, as well as some of the ensuing discussion.<br /> <br /> ::As anyone who's ever been in a position of authority knows, there's a balance between ignoring the rules and enforcing them. Different people tend towards different sides of that. On a wiki, when it goes too far towards ignoring, people often have a lot of fun at first, but many quickly become frustrated with the unfair application or non-application of rules and they stop editing. After all, why have rules if nobody pays attention to them - it only lets bullies come to the fore. When it goes too far towards enforcing, people often like the structure and fairness at first, but tend to stop editing when it becomes an authoritarian regime. Similarly to the above, why edit when the slightest misstep gets you a warning or a block?<br /> <br /> ::I think it's fair to say that in more recent times, the wiki has tended more towards the ignoring side than the enforcing side. I would go so far as to say that it has swung too far to that side, and yes, some people are feeling unfairly treated. Obviously, AKB tends more towards enforcement than we've had in recent times, and I think that can only be a good thing, since it will undoubtedly be balanced out by those who take a less strict view of things.<br /> <br /> ::In regards to our various policies, specifically those around personal attacks, I'd like to point out that personal attacks aren't the be all and end all. The [[Project:Etiquette|Etiquette]] policy also includes statements like the very first bullet point, and bolded no less, &quot;Be patient and courteous&quot;. It also includes points about being polite and assuming good faith. I agree with AKB that any long-term editor, regardless of what rights they may have, should be held to ''at least'' the same standards as others. If you've been a regular editor around a wiki for more than a few months, it should be pretty clear how they're supposed to work. If you've been around for a few years, these sorts of things should come naturally. Sure, we all have times when our temper gets the best of us or something just plain comes out wrong, but we apologize for them and move on. It's when the apologies aren't sincere or are absent altogether, particularly when someone points out the issue, that the etiquette policy and others really need to be brought into play in my mind.<br /> <br /> ::Kiz brings up a great idea with the three strikes rule, or some variant of it. This sort of thing has been used very successfully in forums for ages, and even Wikipedia has a variation of it with their [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject_user_warnings/Usage_and_layout#Levels|user-warning levels]]. I think if we combine that with a balance of [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Template the regulars|Template the regulars]] (for warnings about etiquette and similar issues) and [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars|Don't template the regulars]] (for reminders about previewing, signatures, etc.), we'll have a workable system that's fair to everyone. There would need to be some method of having warnings removed over time, but specifics of any such system might be best for a new topic. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break 2===<br /> The first thing I thought when coming across this section was: &quot;Wow! Steady on guys!&quot; I've only just made sense of this flood of drama given my prolonged absence and I was surprised to find so many competent editors, most of which I held in high esteem when I was active, are literally at their throats. This obviously can't be constructive. I have problems with the first two issues proposed by AKB. I have thought a lot about them and have had private talks with both users involved, who I'm not afraid to consider friends. I've already given my opinion on rpeh's block, so I'll tackle the second point before explaining why I'm 100% behind the third point.<br /> <br /> Krusty's de-admin request is not a good idea, as many above have pointed out. Most importantly, Krusty has already decided to take a wiki break and cool-off. Yes, Krusty did return to oppose RH's RfA (as if that were a reason to be stripped of adminship!) and to be honest, whether you agree with his points or not, he did bring forth the fact that there was a rift in the community and people have acted on it largely thanks to his post. His words for a certain group of users certainly wasn't loving but there is no denying that there are some editors, and there have been for as long as I've been here, who see themselves as the paladins of righteousness; always ready to jump when they perceive &quot;abuses of power&quot; and conveniently forget their own precedents (and in case anyone is wondering, [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#De-Patrollership_Request_for_Elliot I'm talking about Elliot]). Krusty's &quot;idiocy&quot; comment and his blocking of Dwarfmp on IRC stand out as his worst actions as administrator, but if we look at the bigger picture of his adminship it is clear these are the exception, not the rule. Everyone makes mistakes and this was at a time of great stress. Removing his administrator rights now would be the worse course of action.<br /> <br /> The third point, which I believe should have been the thrust of this post but was inevitably overtaken by the other two, is a very, very good point. Although personally I don't believe I have ever been given any sort of special treatment, it is true, as RH pointed out, that there is a history of this sort of behaviour on UESP. Cracking down on that is everyone's interest. It hard to write up policy for this sort of thing. What we need is for everyone of us to say: let's draw the line here and now - we won't tolerate privileged treatment anymore. I know this may seem to contradict my opposition to Krusty's de-admining but if we decide to crack down on this behaviour we must do it for all who have benefitted from it in the past, not just the convenient recent targets. Because this isn't feasible, let's start off with a blank sheet, but let's be serious. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Nice to see you come back. If you feel like trying to bring me down in order to invalidate my opinion, then you need to go to another wiki. I know what I've done, and I know what I've ''not'' done. So, if you are going to bring up a '''two year old discussion''' in order to disparage me, then let's bring up ''every single thing that rpeh has done wrong'' (remember, this is a discussion about '''rpeh'''). That's sarcasm, by the way. We are discussing things that have happened in '''2012''', not '''2009''', so if you could keep your points relevant, that would be a great help. Thanks. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:05, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Good to see you back from you wiki-break too Elliot! Two days have been long and hard without you! (That's also sarcasm by the way.) The reason why I mentioned you should be obvious. I don't like to make claims without supporting them with facts (I couldn't care less when they occurred) and I wanted to avoid people thinking I was accusing them. Also, please stop victimising yourself. That link isn't even close to being the central point of my post, but rather an aside to avoid confusion. It isn't always all about you Elliot (you're honestly not ''that'' important) and, despite your claims to the contrary, this conversation isn't '''just''' about rpeh. It's actually about a lot of things, which include rpeh's block. If you stepped back and stopped your hatred of rpeh guiding your every action, you'd see all this by yourself. Really do try to do this: I'm ''actually'' off to study for my finals so I won't be here to explain it to you again. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::I never did say it was about me. But I don't really hate rpeh, it's more of hating how people give him special treatment, including yourself. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Page Protection ==<br /> <br /> I've been doing some more bot work tonight, and I've come up with a list of pages where the expected page protection doesn't match the actual page protection. You can see the list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]. (Sorry for the reverse page sorting...change in logic that I forgot to fix before the bot ran.) Mostly these are archives, but I've added checking for our Javascript pages, site financial data, and I'd like to suggest that we also protect the various [[UESP:Messages]] subpages as well. Now, I have a few questions:<br /> <br /> # Do the pages in the list all look like reasonable pages to add the suggested level of protection to?<br /> # Are there any others the bot should be checking?<br /> # Once we're happy with what the bot feels needs to be changed, do we want it to go ahead and change them all or would an Admin rather do it?<br /> <br /> A little background on that last question: when we originally granted bots permission to change page rights, rpeh was an Admin and he was the only one actively running a bot at the time, so it was of little consequence. In my case, the bot's rights exceed my own, so I thought I should check that nobody had concerns with that. The bot can be made to either produce a report or actually change the rights at the flick of a switch, so it's not a big concern for me either way. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I personally don't have any objections to it, but I'm not an admin. You only suggested semi-protecting [[Daggerfall talk:Vampirism/Archive]] - you should also archive [[Daggerfall:Vampirism/Archive]]. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::{{ec}} Please note that due to a design change in MediaWiki a while ago, some older protected pages aren't being reported as such. I'll ask Nephele or Dave to run the maintenance script that updates this and regenerate the list shortly.<br /> <br /> ::Jak: Currently, the bot isn't looking for archives in non-talk pages other than UESPWiki. It's not hard to do, but I'm concerned that it would probably get a lot of false hits as a result. Once I've gotten Neph or Dave to run the maintenance script, I'll see what the bot would &quot;want&quot; to protect if I included all namespaces. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::'''For the Admin who has too much time on their hands:''' ;-) can I get someone to unprotect and reprotect the following list of pages? From what I've been able to gather Googling around a bit, they were all protected a long time ago when we were on an older version of MediaWiki and the internal protection coding has changed since then. The maintenance script failed to fix the problem for whatever reason, so a number of pages aren't showing as protected in some lists, but they're fine in others. In addition to the obvious issues it's causing with my bot getting confused (which is a minor concern that I can work around), it's possible that the protection may not propagate properly whenever we do future MediaWiki upgrades and we might not even be aware we'd lost it, which is a much bigger concern. Anyway, here's the list of the pages the bot identified &lt;s&gt;initially, though there could well be others that the bot wasn't designed to pick up on. I'll need to do some programming, and checking will take a bit of time in and of itself, but I'll add to this list if I find more.&lt;/s&gt; Unless Daveh is planning to upgrade the wiki in the next few days and surprise everyone, there's no big hurry. :)<br /> <br /> {{Showhide/Start|Oddly Protected Pages}}<br /> :::* [[:File:Mainpage-logo.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Somerights.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:UespPages.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Wiki.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:Index.php]] (full) - note: this one can be hard to get to due to the redirect to the main page. Use [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Index.php&amp;redirect=no this] to get there<br /> :::* [[:Main Page]] (full)<br /> :::* [[General:Links]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] (full)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 2]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Battlehorn Castle (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Deepscorn Hollow (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Frostcrag Spire (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Mazoga the Orc (quest)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Umbra (person)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Glitches]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Oblivion]] (Edit=semi Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Shadowkey:Shadowkey]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Muffle (effect)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Thieves Guild (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:About]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Photo&quot; Category]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Special&quot; tips?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP IRC Meeting (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP The main namespace, and its use (or lack thereof)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP Why Put Quests Under &quot;Quests&quot; Article?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/Other Subpages (And why we need them)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Bad Addresses]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyright and Ownership]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyrights]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (3)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tamriel:Atronach (Daedra)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:History]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:IRC]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Oblivion Places Redesign Project]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Costs]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Account Balance]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/April 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/August 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/December 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/July 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/June 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/May 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/November 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/October 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/September 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Spam Blacklist]] (full)<br /> :::* [[User talk:Rpeh]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[User:ShakenMike]] (full)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> :::&lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::I've unprotected all (but 1, read additional info below) of those pages and reprotected them accordingly, all with infinite expire time (assuming that was necessary for all). This one: [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], didn't have a protection tab, Krusty says that's up to Nephele or Daveh to do, so I did all I could :) ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:55, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::That's great, Dwarfmp! I don't think the Common.css file is all that big of a concern, since the entire MediaWiki space is limited to editing by Admins only in the first place, so even if it loses its protection at some point in the distant future, not much will actually have changed.<br /> <br /> :::::Now, does anybody have any concerns with the bot protecting the various archive pages list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]? I've got a tiny bit more code tweaking to do, so rather than drag this out too long, since I know everyone's busy, I'll go ahead and protect the pages appropriately unless someone objects within the next 48 hours. My thinking is that we could easily have created an Admin Bots group if we'd been all that concerned about it, but we didn't, so it seems reasonable to me that if we gave all bots the right to protect/unprotect pages, that we should feel free to do exactly that, especially since I'm duplicating the exact task they were given that right for in the first place. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Rpeh's Block Appeal ==<br /> <br /> Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all editors are entitled to an appeal on the Administrator Noticeboard, so at Rpeh's request, I am starting a thread here, and posting what has been said on his [[User talk:Rpeh|talk page]], so that everyone can see it, and he can provide his argument for appealing the block. I am aware that some may not see me as the guy to start an appeal for him, but we have to play this by the books. [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Please specify the alleged &quot;personal attacks&quot; and &quot;multiple disruptions&quot;, and please highlight the warnings given about them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I would first like to start off by saying that no formal warning has been given about this. However, as UESP [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] states: ''&quot;Although this three-step process [Warn, Temporary Block, Permanent Block] is the normal procedure, administrators have the authority to bypass one or more steps at their discretion.&quot;'' The policy page goes onto include personal attacks as a reason to not just bypass a warning, but can be grounds for an immediate permanent block. I made note to remove any mention of a warning from this block due to this. <br /> <br /> ::As for your request for examples, you have [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 claimed that Daveh is sycophant and incompetent], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 left a sarcastic reply to a user during a previous request to have you blocked], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 claimed that RH70 was sucking up to other users] (according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F Wikipedia Policy], accusing a user of a certain kind of behavior without evidence to back it up is considered a personal attack), and you were disruptive when a user's eligibility in a discussion was called into question due to perceived signs of meat puppetry [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935811 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 here]. <br /> <br /> ::I apologize that I don't have time to go into detail with anything but I'm rather busy IRL at the moment. I may be disposed to reply swiftly to any other message, but I will try to get back to you. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Quite simply, none of those are personal attacks. At a pinch, the comment to Daveh was on the line, but it took place over two months ago so handing out a three month block now is a clear violation of natural justice. As for my comments on RH, Krusty had already provided the evidence. I was simply adding my voice in support. No justification for this block, so please undo ASAP. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do have to add that, and I quote: &quot;A pattern of hostility reduces the likelihood of the community assuming good faith, and can be considered [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing disruptive editing].&quot; Considering your inactivity on the site, it is likely these posts were meant to harm the wiki.<br /> <br /> ::::If that doesn't convince you this block was justified, I'll add [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935490 this link], a vote which is suspected to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry meat puppetry]. Since meat puppetry is as good as impossible to prove, it is up to an administrator to act as a judge. Considering the user in question has made a total of only 4 [[Special:Contributions/Haysie|contributions]], of which 2 are edits to their userpage, and the other 2 being the vote on the rfa, it is highly unlikely this person has sufficient knowledge to cast an actual vote. While it is not impossible for the user to have observed the wiki, the lack of previous votes since they subscribed leads one to believe they also lack the interest to vote. If you check their [[User:Haysie|userpage]], you can read the following line: ''&quot;I am a newbie to the Elder Scrolls world - having been introduced by Rob, one of the admins on this very portal.&quot;'' At the time this addition was made, you, '''Robert''', were an admin. This should provide enough evidence of you two being friends, which makes their vote (in which your argument was simply repeated) a mere &quot;back-up&quot; from a friend, which is prohibited ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 18:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I'm quite honestly astonished by the hypocrisy taking place on this site at the moment. I was de-adminned because I committed &quot;censorship&quot; by removing a totally unproductive discussion from the site. Now I'm blocked for standing up for my right to comment on an RfA and a user's right to cast a vote? Seriously???<br /> ::::: The entire premise behind this block is that nobody making the active users list deserves a right to vote. That is, quite simply, wrong. The reasons behind ''my'' block then move on to what ''another user'' has said on their user page! Seriously, people! Try putting forward this kind of &quot;evidence&quot; in a real court and see how far you get!<br /> ::::: I have made ''no'' personal attacks and committed ''no'' other blockable offence, yet was banned without warning. An unblock is the least that needs to be done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all users are entitled to an appeal on the AN. Is this to be considered and appeal, and shall I move this for you, Rpeh? [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I was wondering how long it would take. Yes, please. There's absolutely no justification for this block. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Absolutely not. Considering he still sees nothing wrong with meatpuppetry and his attacks on other editors, I feel compelled to ask for an admin to ''extend'' the block, rather than shorten it. I have made my comments in the [[#Actions to be Made|above section]], so there is not much else I can say on the matter. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I'm not going to comment too much on this because I don't have a lot of time on my hands. All I'll say is that if rpeh should be blocked at all, the only grounds that should be debated upon are the alleged meatpuppet. That's all. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::So how is it appropriate to ignore rpeh's attacks other users again? [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I support the block based on the links others have provided, and believe them to be attacks on individuals, indirectly or directly. Saying ''&quot;Unfortunately, you decided to go for &quot;Oh, good!&quot; and sycophancy instead of actual competence.&quot;'' may or may not have been insulting Daveh, but it most definitely insulted RH70 by calling him a sycophant and incompetent. ''&quot;As for the claim about competence: I've got a TESV map up and running. It works well, and I've played around with things like gamma correction and contrast so that it doesn't look too bad. Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;'' is an inappropriate insult to competence when something more like ''&quot;I've got a map up and running that looks pretty good, and I know you're not too great at maps, so I'm fairly confident in my competence.&quot;'' would have worked just fine. It's a minor difference, but that last line in his post--''&quot;Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;''--was completely unnecessary and rude. ([[Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying_incivility|Civility]] guidelines say that ''&quot;belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgmental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. &quot;that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen&quot;, &quot;snipped crap&quot;)&quot;'' counts as rudeness, and I view that statement as being judgmental in this manner.)<br /> <br /> :::::''&quot;His main input has been to spend hours splitting hairs and pushing his own idiosyncratic POV on policy debates while doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates, and sucking up to people he thinks will benefit his wiki career.&quot;'' On one hand, I can see how this is an evaluation, but on another, it's snide insults. If someone's messing with templates in a way you don't like, it can be changed or conversations can be had. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions on policy debates. Typos and other tiny edits are absolutely necessary towards the quality of the articles on this wiki. They may not be large edits, but one need not insult another's activities based on the amount of the page that is edited (''&quot;nothing but fixing typos&quot;'').<br /> <br /> :::::Calling RH70 a &quot;total disgrace&quot; for calling up a policy is something that absolutely does not assume good faith. It was a discussion of established wiki policies, and the insult was not necessary, along with saying that RH70 was ignoring policy despite him bringing one up. If it was not a misunderstanding on rpeh's part, then it seems more like needless aggression to me.<br /> <br /> :::::If I have misunderstood anything here, please point it out. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Okay, let's do this &quot;by the book&quot; then and examine all the examples of rpeh's conduct being used to support his block. First of all, rpeh never accused Daveh of sycophancy or incompetence. Rather, he accused Daveh of &quot;going for&quot; (i.e., supporting) sycophancy over competence. He confirmed this in the second comment AKB linked to, where he stated that he had previously accused Daveh of being &quot;subject to sycophancy&quot; (again, not calling Daveh a sycophant; the sycophant is the flatterer, and rpeh was saying Daveh was the person being influenced by flattery). I don't agree with rpeh's assessment, but it's a stretch to say he had no basis for thinking that way.<br /> <br /> ::::::The second comment AKB cites to is sarcastic, yes, but I think we're going down a very dangerous road when we start saying that ''sarcasm'' is a blockable offense. I believe utilizing sarcasm to drive a point home can be done at the discretion of every user here, rpeh included. As for the third comment about RH &quot;sucking up&quot; to people, rpeh incorporated by reference Krusty's reasoning, which mentioned several concrete situations where RH's conduct could be perceived that way. So it's false to say that rpeh accused RH of certain kinds of behavior with no evidence to back it up.<br /> <br /> ::::::There's something in the background of this discussion that I feel should be brought to the fore: some people seem to believe that making our jobs easier is the same as making the wiki better. It's not. It is wrong to assume that any &quot;disruption&quot; a person may cause is necessarily detrimental to the site. It may be easier for some to block rpeh or someone like him than to allow him or her their right to speak on the site concerning site matters. We wouldn't have to convince them, argue against them, or be challenged by them. However, it would not necessarily make the wiki better, and that's what the goal should be. Making our jobs easier is fine up and until we reach a matter where our jobs are ''supposed'' to be hard. People management is not easy, but it's not supposed to be, and simply silencing people for the sake of convenience is the coward's way out.<br /> <br /> ::::::Anyways, it's clear to me, at least, that the months-old comments AKB dredged up were only mentioned to buttress the weak foundation for this block, and really the only substantive reason was rpeh's opposition to RH's RfA and the suspicion of meatpuppetry. Allow me to reiterate: (1) Opposing someone in an RfA by expressing an opinion on the merits of the candidate for adminship is a valid form of participation and not a &quot;disruption&quot; to the site, (2) &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; is just a derogatory term for what is, essentially, an acceptable electioneering practice which doesn't justify a block, (3) the punishment for suspected meatpuppetry is that it is unpersuasive and repulsive to other voters, and that it may be discounted by Daveh, ''not'' the implementation of a block, and (4) blocking rpeh over likely misguided perceptions and prejudices rather than for actual violations of UESP's policies and standards is offensive to my conscience.<br /> <br /> ::::::In response to Vely, when you say rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment was &quot;needless&quot;, how do you define what was needed or not? The presumed goal was to dissuade others from voting for Robin, who already had a substantial number of votes in his favor (including my own). Hopes of achieving his goal must have looked bleak, and rpeh likely felt he needed to state his opinion as forcefully as he could to help turn the tide against Robin's nomination. Judging by the aftermath, he was correct in that assessment. And while &quot;total disgrace&quot; is hardly favorable, it's clearly rpeh's assessment of the merits of Robin as a candidate to be an admin, in the appropriate forum, and ''not'' a personal attack or grounds for a block. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}RH70 pointed out a policy with suspicions about Haysie--without definitively stating more than that suspicion--to which rpeh replied with a statement that RH70 was misusing policy. I don't see how a simple mention of a policy (with reasonable suspicion, as the only person we know Haysie knows on here is rpeh and there were only userpage edits before then) is grounds for being called a disgrace. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 23:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :I'm genuinely hurt by what I'm seeing. I respected rpeh as an editor, and I don't deny that I don't approve of how he was de-admin'd, but if he shouldn't have been then, he definitely should be now. Regardless of what happened, there is no reason to speak so harshly with so little provocation on so many occasions. I'm equally disappointed to be seeing so many editors I used to have so much respect for using semantics as a way to justify needlessly provocative comments. Let me repeat: I &lt;i&gt;supported&lt;/i&gt; rpeh, and even I can't deny that his posts are inflammatory. As Kenny said, we cannot continue to overlook infractions because of a history of good contributions. Hell, if Daveh himself started breaking the community rules and being rude like this while never contributing anything worthwhile, I doubt many people would disagree with a demand for his resignation. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 23:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}} To Velyanthe, I don't see how, either; Rpeh's explanation was not perfectly clear (again, not a blockable offense). I imagine it went something like this: he understood the wiki policies to mean that all users are presumptively welcome to participate. He also must have thought, rightly or wrongly, that the users were preparing to categorically discount Haysie's vote and that there was nothing in the policies which allowed for this. The most relevant sentence, &quot;Certain comments may be discounted if there are suspicions of fraud; these may be the contributions of very new editors, sockpuppets, and meatpuppets&quot;, does not specify ''who'' may discount a vote or what measure of certainty is needed. So he either thought that this was guidance for individuals, that they may consider a vote so unpersuasive so as to not count it at all, or else that it allowed a vote to be categorically discounted by an administrator at the final tally, but doing so required hard evidence, not circumstantial evidence like what we have here. Just to start, it's certainly possible that Haysie makes contributions without signing in, it's also possible that he or she made the account with a good-faith intent to participate, and without any agreement in place to support rpeh's endeavors. While allowing for these possibilities might mean that discounting a vote for meatpuppetry would rarely happen short of a confession, that's not such a bad thing. It doesn't stop individuals from concluding that someone is a meatpuppet. Like I was saying before, that's the real, organic punishment for suspected meatpuppetry. A block is disproportionate and ultimately unnecessary.<br /> <br /> ::Regardless, it's clear by what rpeh said that he thought that the basic interest this wiki has in promoting participation is important enough that in this case the mere ''suspicion'' of Haysie as a sockpuppet or an inappropriate meatpuppet was not enough to officially discount her vote. Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:18, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}}The one counting the votes would have been Daveh, and guidelines say that a vote can be discounted if meatpuppetry is suspected. While we couldn't prove or disprove it, there was some evidence for it. I also see nothing wrong with suspicions. We could even ask Haysie herself.<br /> <br /> :::I agree that the single incident would not be a blockable offence, but the multiple incidents that took place in February and the vote are all somewhat similar. If not insults, they are rather close to them, and have been far too frequent to be simple accident. I do not know if it directly fits into the [[wikipedia:disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] category, but it seems to follow the point of ''&quot;Their edits often avoid gross breaches of civility, by refraining from personal attacks, while still interfering with civil and collaborative editing meant to improve the article.&quot;'' <br /> <br /> :::What do you mean by ''&quot;Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place.&quot;''? What is the &quot;it&quot;? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, rpeh's thesis that nothing disqualified Haysie from voting remains true; Haysie had the right to vote, even if Daveh has the right to discount it. So rpeh becomes guilty of throwing up a straw man (again, not a blockable offense, just a subversive method of argument that may not have been intentional). Rpeh is abrasive with people when he thinks he's right and he's being ignored. I don't think he will deny that, or even wants to. But he's certainly not interfering with my ability to be civil or collaborate.<br /> <br /> ::::He's not swearing, he's not spamming, all of his comments, while apparently unpopular, have been related to the site and placed appropriately, and all there is against him in terms of fraud is ungrounded suspicions. That's just the simple state of affairs right now. Do you think the person I just described should be blocked? <br /> <br /> ::::For that last sentence, I meant that whether we agree with the reasoning of rpeh as I had proposed it, it's enough that he was positively contributing (as ironic as that terminology may seem). The &quot;it&quot; was his reasoning. We don't have to agree, for example, with rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment, but in this context, I believe it's necessary to conclude that he had no basis for coming to that conclusion to hold him accountable with a block for expressing such an opinion. I believe he had some substantive, legitimate reason(s) for his opinion, poorly explained and possibly misconstrued as they may have been, so it would be wrong to silence him for uttering that opinion. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} Calling people sycophants and disgraces for attempts to contribute and mentions of site policy, calling someone incompetent simply because he has done more on maps, and just about calling someone's edits useless and perhaps detrimental (''&quot;doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates&quot;'') doesn't sound like comments that have been site-related and appropriately placed. I also forgot his comment about the whole nomination being a façade, which is really uncalled for, unless there's some huge underlying issues that I'm completely missing. He's free to express his opinion, but bringing strong emotions and perceived plots into play isn't the way to do it. <br /> <br /> :::::To address a point I missed earlier, I don't think that the wiki's policy on meatpuppetry should be discussed in terms of this conversation, if you've got feelings about changing it. Whether or not it's acceptable is a unique issue on its own, and I'm fairly certain it's policy (written or unwritten) to not alter policy while events regarding the policy are going on or in the middle of such an event. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I feel similar to how ThuumofReason is feeling. Anyway, I agree that in no way were there any clear personal attacks. Though I was under the impression that meat puppetry was a good reason to block, and I find it rather obviously so to be the case ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 01:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Meatpuppetry is a form of fraud, just like sockpuppetry, and I presume it's blockable. The rub is that sockpuppetry is sometimes hard to spot but usually easy to prove, while meatpuppetry is usually easy to spot but almost impossible to prove with any reasonable degree of certainty. It may be just a disguised form of sockpuppetry. You're essentially trying to argue ''res ipsa loquitur'', the thing speaks for itself; I say you need more to go on. How do we know Haysie doesn't participate as an anon while at school or work? How do we know the account wasn't started in good faith? How do we know that they made an agreement for Haysie to support rpeh's goals? And even assuming Haysie has a standing agreement to take certain positions and never contributes beyond that, how do we know that agreement is with rpeh? I'm not asking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt like this is a courtroom, just something that doesn't turn this into a witch hunt. So I just don't see how a block is necessary or just in these circumstances. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}Would asking Haysie be appropriate in this situation? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:56, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Certainly, if you feel that would be productive. For the moment, I'm just thinking about how easy it would be to frame or be framed for suspected meatpuppetry in the future. Someone who doesn't like what I'm saying could be making an account right now at the local coffeeshop, under a different IP, saying their old buddy Minor Edits told them to join the UESP. Times goes by, eventually someone will have a problem with me. Then this inactive account suddenly starts making comments in support of me, someone takes notice, and I'm blocked on the mere suspicion of meatpuppetry. It would be so ''easy''. I don't know about big conspiracies, but there are certainly ''plenty'' of individuals out there with a bone to pick with rpeh. All it takes is one crazy person, and since this is the internet, is it really all that unlikely that someone will do this eventually? And regardless of what you think of rpeh or the truth behind Haysie, do you think that other person really deserves to be framed and blocked? [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I don't know about blocking policy on meatpuppets, just with throwing out their votes if suspected. I feel it may be productive to ask Haysie about it, as if she admits to being asked by rpeh to add a voice or to being pointed towards the discussion by him then that would prove it, whereas other answers would disprove it or stay ambiguous. Don't forget to assume good faith--without that, we'd all be seeing conspiracies, in which case we might as well say that [[User:JR|JR]] is trying to slowly remove me from patrollership by gradually pointing out [[User_talk:Velyanthe#Fun_with_Grammar:_Compound_Modifiers_.28Compound_Adjectives.29|grammar issues]].<br /> <br /> ::I don't hold much opinion on whether or not Haysie is a meatpuppet, nor do I have huge issues with rpeh based on her vote (since we can't prove it in the first place). It's everything else I've mentioned that I have issues with, but please note that my opinions aren't very strong. <br /> <br /> ::I don't think that the fact that most of rpeh's posts were from two months ago really matters either, since his attitude has been similar recently and he has been negative towards RH70 in the same manner, even after taking a break. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 02:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::To be honest, I don't agree with Rpeh's block. However, since AKB just went and blocked him like that, without discussing it with other admins, also threathening to resign if his actions were considered to be wrong (as would be the case should the block be removed), there wasn't much I could do. Considering the whole drama, I didn't feel the need to make AKB look bad as well, so I tried to support him in the block (we already look bad as it is). Though I really think that the meat puppetry is a good reason to warrant a block. Since it cannot be proved, but the term exist and is a reason to block, well then someone has to take a look at the facts and decide on their own whether this is legit or not. And I believe it is not. I've put forth what I can call evidence. Perhaps we need more opinions from other admins/patrollers ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::That's the thing; what exactly is meatpuppetry? Just pointing a new or existing member towards a discussion is not enough to warrant blocking a person. As I said earlier, I think that's just electioneering 101. People have posted on my talk page before asking me to take a look at a particular conversation where some important matter was being decided; I don't consider that to be unjustified, and such behavior should be protected. That's just fundamentally about encouraging participation in the site, which is rarely a bad thing. For a meatpuppet, I think you need someone who joined ''and'' participated for, in practice, the sole benefit of another user's agenda pursuant to an agreement between them. That's pretty hard to prove. If Haysie would be willing to confess to this arrangement, it would rule out some other possibilities, although not the possibility of framing I mentioned.<br /> <br /> ::::Rpeh's comments in Feb. were at least borderline; I believe he acknowledged this is true. All I can do is reiterate that criticism, negativity, whatever you want to call it, is not necessarily unconstructive site participation. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::This is basically just talking in a circle now. As of now, as far as I see it, the majority of the users who have either felt the block was justified with the reasons I've given or would be justified (maybe under different parameters, I assume) if it were for the perceived meat puppetry (which he has more or less denied, though he never explicitly denied any relation with Haysie). Says most of the remaining arguing seems to revolve around whether his actions count as personal attacks (which I and many others consider them to be), and whether certain contributions should even count at all (I consider them to be valid due to the lack of any activity on the site between them). As of now, arguing over this isn't going anywhere, and I don't see the purpose of continued discussion on this subject. Unless Haysie intends to respond (and since there are already claims that this may be an elaborate frame job, I'm not entirely sure those opposing this would count any statement as genuine, meaning this discussion would just continue even further without any progress), or rpeh wishes to provide reasons for what he intends to do if he is allowed to edit again (which is a critical part of the appeal process), then I suggest we call this done. As of now, I don't see anyone persuading anyone else with any argument imaginable. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} I apologize for prolonging this discussion. However, I started writing these comments before AKB's last post, and I think they still have some merit even if the discussion is coming to an end; perhaps they'll give a few editors some new perspectives.<br /> <br /> In brief, I think rpeh's recent edits have been disruptive, and that some action to prevent further disruptions is necessary. Therefore, a block is appropriate. I had been thinking that a less severe administrative action might also be equally effective. Paradoxically, however, rpeh's appeal request leaves me more in favor of the block than I previously had been. Without his appeal, I'd been able to give him the benefit of the doubt. But if rpeh can't provide any reasons why we should think that his edits will be any less disruptive in the future -- or can't even tell us that the block might prevent him from making constructive edits -- then I feel no need to invent such reasons on his behalf.<br /> <br /> In my opinion, rpeh's recent actions have not been appropriate. Although no single sentence of rpeh's is a red-flag, unambiguous disruption and/or personal attack, his contributions need to be evaluated as a whole, not word-by-word. Overall, he has made repeated inflammatory comments, without any intervening productive contributions to the site. Each of his comments in Robin Hood's RfA was 100% negative; there was no redeeming value in terms of constructive suggestions -- unlike every other editor with a substantive oppose vote. He has not followed up with anything to lessen the negativity of those comments. His block appeal would have been a perfect opportunity to provide some type of explanation or extend an olive branch. However, he hasn't even acknowledged that the community has concerns about those edits.<br /> <br /> I whole-heartedly belive in Assume Good Faith -- but there has to be some minimal basis for assuming good faith, and the entire circumstances have to be taken into account, not just a single out-of-context sentence. Rpeh's comments were not made in error; there is no evidence that they're being misinterpreted. He has made no effort to say that he thinks there was anything inappropriate about his edits, or that anything about those edits should have been done differently. As a result, I just can't see any way to interpret his comments as well-intentioned edits that were supposed to benefit UESP. Rather, he simply appears to be venting, presumably because he is upset about being de-admined. He is completely entitled to be upset, and it's a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean that he is entitled to act out on UESP in response. He needs to be able to put the de-admin behind him and be willing to move forward -- otherwise I don't think he's ready to return to the site and return to being a productive editor.<br /> <br /> There is no questioning that in the past rpeh has been a valuable contributor to the site. However, Rpeh is not currently behaving/contributing in a manner consistent with a valuable contributor -- including the fact that he has not been making any productive edits. We need to make decisions based upon the current situation. In my opinion, allowing him to continue editing right now is only likely to lead to more inflammatory, negative comments posted on talk pages and noticeboards. Allowing those edits to continue will cause more disruption and harm to UESP, and therefore the community is justified in trying to prevent more such edits.<br /> <br /> Rpeh has made no attempt to convince the community that lifting the block will benefit the site -- even though the [[UESPWiki:Blocking_Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Appealing Blocks]] section explicitly recommends including such information in an appeal. Rpeh doesn't even suggest that he is planning to contribute to the site. Editing UESP is not a constitutional right. It is a privilege given to editors solely because we want to allow editors to help improve the site. People who don't want to improve the site don't need edit rights. Also, talking about courts of law and judicial evidence standards is irrelevant -- we're not talking about a decision that sends someone to jail. UESP decisions arguably are more like a group of friends deciding who to invite to a party than a court of law.<br /> <br /> All of which leads me to conclude that some action needs to be taken by the community to prevent rpeh from causing more disruption. A block accomplishes that goal. One argument against the block is that no warning was given first. AKB has already rightly pointed out that admins have the discretion to block without first providing a warning. One purpose of a warning is to make sure that the editor knows the site's rules and policies -- not necessary in this case. Another is to tell the editor that his behavior has been inappropriate -- but rpeh has already been told exactly that in the whole de-admin process. That was a pretty unambiguous message that the community disapproves of his negative comments directed at other editors. Placing a bright pink official warning message on rpeh's talk page immediately after de-admining him would have been rubbing salt in open wounds. Ultimately, a warning message is given in the belief that it may be sufficient to change the editor's behavior and prevent a block -- but based on rpeh's past behavior when given warnings, and based on his current argumentative responses, I see no reason to think that he would have paid any serious attention to a warning.<br /> <br /> Also, I think three months is an appropriate duration given that in the two months since the de-admin, rpeh has shown no signs of moving past that event.<br /> <br /> A final factor here is that we are talking about an existing block. Administrative decisions are judgement calls. In this case, AKB made a good-faith, thought-out decision based on the situation at that time and the information available to him at that time. Second-guessing after the fact whether that was the single best possible course of action at that point in time isn't really helpful. The question now is whether there is a definitive reason why the original decision needs to be changed. In his block appeal, rpeh didn't provide any reasons for how UESP would benefit if the the block was lifted, and I'm not aware of any such arguments from other editors.<br /> <br /> Given AKB's above comments, I think it may simply be best to close this discussion. However, if other editors still think that there are reasons why we need to lift the block -- reasons why that would be better for UESP than leaving it in place -- then I think those editors need to provide an alternative proposal about what can be done to prevent continued disruptions. Even though I strongly feel that simply lifting the block and doing nothing is the wrong course of action, that doesn't mean that there aren't other possible compromise solutions. I think any continuation of this discussion needs to be focussed on identifying such compromises/alternatives -- on finding a consensus rather than just voting. Otherwise, I agree with AKB that it's best to call this done. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Emotions are running high ==<br /> <br /> *Everyone here has a common interest or two, and that is the glue that holds this fan-site together. We could all be friendly.<br /> <br /> *We all contribute a little and use the great resource built by everyone for our own entertainment. This wiki is a group effort.<br /> <br /> *Feelings are what drive our editors to edit and all the other actions we do. Emotions are our brains way of helping us make decisions.<br /> <br /> So please consider these three things as you argue over the finer points which must be made. This site is one of the best quality on the internet, and I wish for it to stay on top. While participating in this drama, I implore you all to think about what your choice of action means to everyone including yourselves. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#000;padding:4px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Lukish|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0F0;&quot;&gt;Lukish&lt;span style=&quot;text-decoration:blink;&quot;&gt;&amp;#95;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; [[User talk:Lukish|Tlk]] [[Special:Contributions/Lukish|Cnt]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protection Template ==<br /> <br /> To make Admins' lives easier, I've updated the {{tl|Protection}} template to work almost identically to how page protection actually works. The template is mostly backwards compatible with how you're used to doing things, but it's no longer necessary to specify &quot;move&quot; as the second parameter. The move protection level is now assumed to be identical to the edit protection level. Apart from that, the biggest difference is how you specify pages that are ''only'' move-protected, which is now: {{tlx|Protection|move{{=}}full}}. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection Request ==<br /> <br /> Not 100% where to request protection so, can I request semi-protection status for [[Skyrim:No Stone Unturned]]. It is not heavily edited, but there is very little being added to the page by any of the edits, it's nearly as good as can be, and it's a waste of time to keep undoing the semi-useless/non-specific information that keeps being added. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;<br /> : Hey Silencer! Sorry, but even if the page appears as “good as it gets” it still contains a vn-tag, a poorly formatted bugs section (filled with the forbidden words ‘sometimes’, ‘for some players’ and ‘may’), so it needs more work. Besides, we rarely semi-protect articles based on heavy traffic, unless it’s repeated vandalism or heavy edit warring. Unless some of the other administrators disagree, I’d recommend taking a deep breath and just keep looking after the page and make sure it's up to standards. All the best, --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 09:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I agree with Krusty. Other than cases of heavy vandalism or edit warring, semi-protection is meant for pages where low-quality edits are ''very'' frequent (like [[SR:Glitches]], for example). Besides, the whole idea of the wiki is that anyone should be able to edit an article regardless of how good it already is, and there's almost always something that can be improved, even if the &quot;regular&quot; editors don't see it. I know it seems like a pain to keep maintaining an already very good page, but an easy &quot;undo&quot; just takes a few seconds. Traffic always slows down as the game ages, so I'm sure we'll survive ;). &lt;b&gt;[[User:Eshe|&lt;font color=&quot;navy&quot;&gt;eshe&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/b&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Eshe|&lt;font color=&quot;navy&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 18:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MediaWiki Upgrade to 1.19 ==<br /> <br /> Just an FYI that I'm in the process of upgrading the wiki to v1.19 of MediaWiki. Since we're running v1.14 this is a relatively involved process due to a number of custom changes we've made to the MediaWiki code as well as having to upgrade all the extensions, some of which are no longer needed since their functionality is now built into v1.19. There should be no downtime involved if everything goes well but I do expect there to be minor issues after the upgrade which will be dealt with as they appear.<br /> <br /> If there are any other MediaWiki related feature or extension requests just let me know as it would be easier to do everything at once. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 13:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> :That's nice. I recall viewing [http://uespwatch.blogspot.com/2012/03/yes-i-know.html a recent blog post] that suggested a upgrade. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 17:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=944789 2012-05-03T17:55:47Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* MediaWiki Upgrade to 1.19 */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. For certain specific requests, see instead:<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Purge Requests|Purge Requests]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:New Page Requests|New Page Requests]]<br /> {{Archive Table|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|History|<br /> |History#Page Archives|Page Archives|<br /> |History#Past Administrative Requests|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == SEVERE caching issues on ths mobile site ==<br /> <br /> Title says it all. On a whim, I checked the CP on my iPhone, and it's '''way''' out of date. I'm talking December out of date. Hard refreshing did not fix it, so it's definitely server-side. When I log in, it takes me away from (and keeps me off of) the mobile site, so I can't purge it. Can someone please take a look at this? • &lt;font color=&quot;#4faf4f&quot;&gt;[[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:1.0&quot; title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot;&gt;&lt;font face=&quot;DragonscriptRegular&quot; size=&quot;3&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Jak Atackka|Talk]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:18, 10 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Mass Proposed Deletion ==<br /> <br /> I'm going through and cleaning up [[Special:UnusedCategories]], and a lot of empty ''faction'' categories still exist. All 364 are listed below.<br /> {{Showhide|List of categories|2=<br /> Skyrim-Factions-put on doors to keep NPCs from opening<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-friends to both sides in MQ101<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-for the NPCs who can use the load door<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for party guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for guards in front<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-faction for NPCs who should stay out of palace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunValtheimKeepBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunUstengravDraugrFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunRavenscarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFjolaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFactionAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMistwatchFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SpiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunMarkarthWizard SecureAreaFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunLostKnifeCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionWarlockAttackedbySpiders<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderNormal<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunHarmugstahlFactionSpiderDocile<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostSoldierNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterUnfriendly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunForelhostGrifterNeutral<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurThrallFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFolgunthurMikrulFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-dunFaldarsToothDogAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-anyone in this won't fight with mq101 alduin<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Wolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WinterholdJailFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Winterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmAretinoResidenceFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WindhelmApothecaryFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Whiterun Guard Neutral Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WhiterunJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-White River Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Werewolf Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Warmaidens<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIThiefFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WITavernPatronFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemySpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WIPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEUnaggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEThalmorDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WESpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02NobleFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERoad02BodyguardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WERJ10EnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEPlayerFriend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJSMerchantHorseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS25EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEJS21HunterandDogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionB<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEEnemiesFactionA<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10SprigganFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL10LumberjackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL09GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL08Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06ThugFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL06LutreshFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDL05Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07JorgenFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEDA07DaetraFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAggressiveAdventurerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WEAdventurerHorseRiderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20WarlockFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE20BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE19BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16HunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE16DeerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FrostAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE15FlameAtronachFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14SkeeverFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE14DogFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11SabreCatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE11MammothFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06PredatorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE06BanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE05OrcFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-WE03EnemiesFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire Thrall<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Vampire PC Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Used to control DialogueOrcHunters conversations<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TownIrontreeMillFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thieves' Guild<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-The Pale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Thalmor - Fooled by PC disguise<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Tailor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TGTQ04 Niranye Attacks Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG09 Nightingale Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG08BMercerHatesPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG07 Vald Hates Player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-TG02 Aringoth Player Enemy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T03HatePlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-T01EnmonFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sybille Stentor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Storm Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Steward has already been blackmailed.<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Spriggan Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Soljund's Sinkhole Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SolitudeBluePalaceServants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sleeping Giant Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Slaughterfish Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Skooma Dealer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Sinding<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-SilverHandFactionPacified<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildNiranye<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildMallus<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildGulumEi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEnthir<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildEndon<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanZaynabi<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanMajhad<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesThievesGuildCaravanAtahba<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWindhelmApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseWhiterunApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseSolitudeApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseRiftenApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthSpells<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthMiscVendor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthInnkeeper<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthBlacksmith<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesSpouseMarkarthApothecary<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesHonningbrewMeaderyPost<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ServicesDawnstarWindpeakInn<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rorikstead Manor Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Robber's Gorge Bandit Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Riverwood Trader Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Restoration Ritual Ghost Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last successful<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission was last failed<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is the player's active mission<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 2<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank = which mission is in &quot;slot&quot; 1<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Rank 1 = Being Absorbed, 2 = Done<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Radiant Raiments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put in this faction to get WI follower comments<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Put dragon here when player absorbs power<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player set prisoner free (used to conditionalize packages, etc.)<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player is being escorted by a friend<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player has accepted mission hooks from this field co<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player assaulted this NPC<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Player Horse Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerWerewolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-PlayerMarriedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Penitus Oculatus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-POIVolcanicHunterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Owners of the Common House<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Orthorn's Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Stormcloak<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Only shows up if Player is Imperial<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Once the player gives the cow to the giant they are both permamently added to this faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Nilheim Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Immune to Mehrunes Razor<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-NPCs Captured by Bandits<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Moorside Inn Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageRivalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageCourtingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarriageAskedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthThalmorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthStewardOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MarkarthHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them more suspicious in dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes them enemies of the player<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatPrisonerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Makes enemy of WEPrisonerFreedCombatCaptorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Make dungeon creatures not attack me<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS08AlikrBaseFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS06CultistFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS03ChaletGuardEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02GrisvarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02ForswornFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS02CidhnaMineCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinKillMargretFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01WeylinBeserk<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01TreasuryHouseEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MS01ConspiracyCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQGreybeardTrainingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQBladesSparringFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ306TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ304AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301SoldierDialogueFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ301CombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206PastFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AncientAlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ206AlduinFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ202EnemyofPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201ThalmorEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ201FriendDistractionDoneFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103TemporaryFriendsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103SonsOfSkyrimSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ103ImperialSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ102ChatterFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101StormcloakFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101LokirEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MQ101ImperialFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG05CreatureFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG03 Caller Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-MG02BossNonCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Largashbur Orcs<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kyne's Peace<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Kolskeggr Mine Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Karthwasten Guard<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-KarthwastenPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobStewardFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobPriestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHousecarlFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobHostlerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-JobCarriageFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Ice Wraith Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunters of Hircine<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hunter Prey Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horker Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Horgeir's House Occupants<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Honningbrew Meadery<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Hjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Great Council Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Gray Pine Goods<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Giant Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Frost Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Forsworn Dog Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ForceFullBodyStagger<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For intimidate brawling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-For dailogue when Thalmor have prisoner with them<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fletcher<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Flame Atronach Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fisherman Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fence<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellstar Farm Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Fellglow Prisoner Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowIntimidateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FavorAllowBribeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer Servant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falmer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-FalkreathJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Falkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Exiled Government<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Eorlund Gray-Mane<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Enemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-East Empire Company<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DunAnsilvundBanditFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dummy Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dremora Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DragonsreachBasementGuards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DismissedFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Wndhelm Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Haafingar Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Falkreath Hold Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dialogue Faction for Dawnstar Guards<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Death won't trigger WIKill04<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarJarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DawnstarHousecarlOwnershipFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Dark Brotherhood Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Daedra<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB RecurringTarget 9 CrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Player Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB Attack Gianna Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DBCiceroDawnstarFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DB09 Door Lock Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Player Hate Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16 Orc Dream Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16OrcAmbushFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA16ErandurFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11GlooredhelAllyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11CannibalAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA11AttackPlayerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA10PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA09TemporaryDragonFriendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA08SelfPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07RazorOwnerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA07PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCrimeFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06YamarzCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA06GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA03VampireFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02GuardsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ElisifAfraidOfPlayer<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CultistsAreEnemies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02CulistsPlayerEnemy<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA02ConduitPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01PlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-DA01NelacarEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentHireling<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CurrentFollowerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crowd Spectator<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Crew of the Red Wave<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Condition on Spectator Idle Anims<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatHateFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsTrainingSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CompanionsSingleCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold Arch-Mage Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Evoker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-College of Winterhold-Apprentice<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Chaurus Faction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Can show up at battles in this hold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSurrenderTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierPlayerEnemyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierDefenderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierAttackerFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWSoldierArcherFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWinterhold<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionWhiterun<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionRift<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionReach<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionPale<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionHjaalmarch<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWRewardFactionFalkreath<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWPlayerAlly<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08GiantFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission08EnemyToGiant<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission04PrisonerFreedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWMission03BedFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortPatrolExteriorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortJailorFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortGatekeeperFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWJobFortCommanderFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWFinaleTemporaryAllies<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDisaffectedSoldierFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToDefendFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWDialogueSoldierWaitingToAttackFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-CWCivilianFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06PlayerWolfSpecialCombatFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C06KodlakAndWolfFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00JorrvaskrFightingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-C00GiantHuntFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Hunter<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bounty Collector<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Blue Palace Guard for DA02<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BladesRecruitsFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bits and Pieces<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardNoRequestFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-BardAudienceMarker<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Bannered Mare Services<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaSelfLoathingFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-ArenaPacifyFaction<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Allowed Faction for Execution Guard Package<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-Agents of the Black Marsh<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-After Hadvar/Ralof get to know you, they are in this faction - used to conditionalize dialogue<br /> <br /> Skyrim-Factions-1 = Imperial, 2 = Stormcloak supporter<br /> }}<br /> <br /> Now, some of these are just alternative descriptions of currently used faction categories, but some are used temporarily for individual quests. I am not too sure these should be kept as categories, though; rather, they should be described on the faction page. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 04:41, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :So, after thinking about, I want to go ahead and propose all empty faction pages for deletion. I really do not believe they serve a purpose by &quot;being empty&quot;; it doesn't really add to the fact that there is no one in that faction. So any of them found on [[Special:UnusedCategories]] are ''officially'' proposed for deletion. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 05:06, 7 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Being 10 days old now, these can be deleted. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:30, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Done. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:23, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::Thanks! Not to be picky, but my second comment prodded ALL of the faction pages, which includes Tes3Mod and Morrowind. However, I still want opinions regarding those. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 02:26, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::And Oblivion, right? Well, they would be useful, if we could determine who is ever a member of the group. However, I see no way of going through the game scripting to determine who joins what faction. As such, I don't see a problem with them being deleted. However, I think we should err on the side of caution with Tes3mod factions, as all of those factions are a part of Tamriel Rebuilt, which is still a work in progress. We may have a need for them yet. The others however, should be deleted. If we were going to figure out a way to add all relevant NPCs to their factions, surely we would of done this already when the bots were running. Most of them also appear to only exist for the PC, so there intended purpose (categorizing what NPC is in what faction), can never be fulfilled as the faction only exists for the PC. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:36, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Actions to be Made ==<br /> <br /> This is a list of actions that I believe are required to be made for this community to continue to function. After recent actions, many users have been driven away from the site due to a number of recent actions and a rise in drama. Some of these actions were only made possible by a degree of mercy to those involved, which obviously did not work out for the best. While these actions will appear to be rather dramatic in themselves, I don't think this site can continue until we get past this. I've given this quite a bit of thought, so I hope this comes off as logical as I can manage. As a final note before I begin listing my reasons for these actions I'm about to make and my request for several others to be done for actions I cannot make myself, I sincerely apologize that I did not make them earlier.<br /> <br /> #[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] is to be blocked immediately. After his removal from the administration of the site, very few of his actions couldn't arguably be considered a personal attack, or at least disruptive. As examples, take [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 this] (where he insulted the founder of the site, and is grounds for immediate block in itself), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 this] (which while not a personal attack, is in no way polite, violating our Etiquette guidelines), [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 this] (while there is nothing wrong with opposing a nomination, there is something wrong with making accusations about someones personal behavior (i.e. accusing Robin of sucking up to other editors to get his way) without evidence to back it up), and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 this] (where he described Robins actions as a &quot;Total disgrace&quot;). For these actions, I do not see how continuing to allow rpeh to edit will benefit the community when I can find only two actions (replies to messages on his talk page) since his de-adminning that hasn't been disruptive or have been grounds for blocking, I find it hard to defend allowing him to continue to edit for now. If he wishes to contribute positively, I will be both willing to listen to a block appeal and unblock him if the community agrees that he wishes to provide assistance to the site as an editor again.<br /> #&lt;s&gt;[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] should have his administrative rights removed for the foreseeable future. While his most recent activity was him announcing he wishes to take a wikibreak, he did return to leave [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934980 this opposition] to Robin's RFA. In it he showed contempt for several editors, accusing them of being part of a conspiracy to make certain decisions, and generally accused many recent actions of being idiocy. However, that is not all of his recent actions that was not appropriate for any user, let alone an administrator to make. He also pointed out a few of his other offenses, such as his actions during the request fro de-adminship for rpeh. See the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25#Request for a New User Group|Request for a New User Group]], where he responded to the discussion with &quot;Please, can we stop this idiocy?&quot; to a discussion that had been up to that point as far as I can see, a perfect example of how a discussion should go down. What is more perplexing is that a previous comment of his from the same discussion was a perfectly reasonable opposition, with him explaining rationally why he did not want to see the group created. Further comments along those lines would of probably had even convinced me that the group was a bad idea, with me being the one to propose it! Another action of his in response to discussions about the group (from what I understand) in the [[UESPWiki:IRC|IRC]] led to him [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive 24#Kicking.2FBanning of Dwarfmp and Elliot|Banning Dwarfmp and Elliot]] from the channel. While I do not request that Krusty be blocked (though it wouldn't be hard to find a reason), I believe that a self-imposed break may be better. Krusty has already voiced his wish to do just this, and I just ask that he does not take part in any site discussions and only work on uncontroversial edits if he chooses to not take a break for the immediate future, I don't see it necessary to demand he does this unless he wishes to cause further drama in the community.&lt;/s&gt;<br /> #Being lenient on administrators and long time editors for inappropriate actions must cease. Throughout this site's history administrators are given much more leeway than any other group of users on the site. This is ridiculous. Administrators and long time editors should be held to a higher standard if anything, not a lower one. Making excuses for &quot;bad days&quot; and the ilk needs to come to an end. If anything, these editors should clearly be the ones to know when they need to log off for the night, or when they shouldn't take part in a conversation, or if they do, they must be as diligent as possible to remain getting upset over it. These past few months have been all the proof we will ever need for this consensus to ignore the wrong doings of certain users does not benefit the site in anyway whatsoever. It's not like this isn't the first time that this hasn't led to problems for the site, and I'm not entirely sure this was even the worse fallout due to this, but I do intend it to be the last if I can. The amount of damage done to our community due to this unofficial policy may very well be irreversible, but it does not need to be repeated.<br /> <br /> While some other users may have made inappropriate reactions over the last few days, I do not intend to bring those to light as I believe them to only be unfortunate reactions to the actions of others. This may very well be one of them for all I know. Just to make it clear, I do not wish ill will to any user for any recent action, I'm merely doing what I think is necessary here. Some seem to think that there is such a thing as an entirely happy, one-minded community. I don't think this is the case, nor has it ever been the case. Users have always disagreed on issues throughout this sites history, which is only appropriate for any community-driven site. No community can hope to be one-minded without becoming stagnant. However, divisions with thought between users does not need to be expressed with hostility, and it shouldn't. While discussions can be emotional, expressing your emotions rationally and logically without attacking the other sides is absolutely necessary for discussions to happen without people getting upset and leaving. <br /> <br /> While only one of these actions I can immediately make (blocking rpeh). I ask that you all agree that my other two recommended courses of action need to be made. <br /> <br /> For all of the users who have left these past few days, I do ask that you return when you wish to. I apologize that administrative action on my part wasn't taken earlier to keep these recent issues from getting so sullied. I erroneously thought that inaction was the best action. For those who wish to leave specifically because of my actions, I simply ask that you explain to me what I did wrong so I may rectify my actions. Finally, if the community feels it is I in the wrong here for what I'm about to do, I would like you to consider this my resignation from all duties relating to this site. I bear no hard feelings to any of you if you feel this is the case. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:06, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I do not disagree with your actions and I very much agree with them, especially the third proposal, which appears to be a reason for lots of drama around here lately and the cause for allowing tension to rise so high. I am glad that someone is taking action in some way, and it's been needed for a while now. Late action is better than inaction. Hopefully things will cool down now. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:26, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::We all know that this RH thing has been controversial, but there's really no reason to ragequit because of it. Any issues that the community has should be resolved by the community, and that can only happen when we have the whole community. People have different opinions about things, and suggesting that people's opinions classify them into &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever only invites trouble. I see so many people holding grudges against either Krusty or RH that they're unwilling to view any action taken by those users in an objective light.<br /> ::Now, maybe it's because I don't use IRC, but I never noticed either Krusty OR RH making edits that couldn't be justified as improvements, and I certainly never noticed any &quot;cliques&quot; forming. Either way, this is a site dedicated to cataloguing knowledge about TES. The reason we registered is because, as a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games. This site is OUR &quot;clique&quot;, as it were. The concept of cliques developing within cliques is one that disturbs me, because just by registering, we've all signed on to the only clique that needs to exist.<br /> ::In short, by ragequitting over something as insignificant as this, you're taking your own voice out of the equation; more importantly, you're taking your valuable contributions out of the equation. &quot;The wiki is going downhill&quot; is not a logical justification for quitting, because as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it. The only real way for the wiki to go downhill is for all of its most valued contributors to leave. If you really care about the quality of the wiki, you won't take the easy way out every time there's a setback. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 22:53, 20 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I am adding Thuums comments here because I feel they are appropriate (He also needs an explaination from you AKB). There is definately a feeling among some users of cliques forming for whatever reason, and that does need looked at. I can't disagree with blocking rpeh in consideration of constant removal of subjects from this page, however care should be taken with everyone else. Feelings are running high at this time and consideration is due before taking further action. I joined after this happened and the fact it is still running shows how much people care about this, but a line needs to be drawn, we need to move on from this and forget about it, things happened, who gives a sh*t, well we all do but its getting us nowhere, so for the good of us all we need to move on, give everyone else one chance, and breath. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do not endorse the comments of rpeh or Krusty in this instance; I disagreed with them on the underlying issue. But they had the right to speak their minds. I think blocking rpeh was wrong; all he did was express an opinion you disagree with. His comments regarding Robin were very harsh, but were they personal? They were tailored to RH's conduct and performance on the site, and anyone who accepts a nomination has to be open to hearing some criticism. I don't think pulling up non-profane comments from two months ago helps justify a three-month block for expressing his opinion on the merits of Robin as a candidate for adminship (and that was, after all, the subject). These aren't personal attacks, these are attacks some people are taking too personally. I think the number of people who changed their votes evidence that the opinions and arguments of rpeh and Krusty were persuasive to some people, and it seems to me that's what they were designed to do: persuade, not insult. De-adminning Krusty would be similarly inappropriate. I don't mean to be overly-dramatic, but in my opinion you are in the process of punishing them for dissenting. This isn't right. <br /> <br /> ::::And can we just stop for a moment and recognize this is all politics? Rpeh and Krusty's opposition to Robin has nothing to do with his skill or trustworthiness. They oppose him because they don't want him having a greater voice or be given deference in making site policy. And you, similarly, are now acting to reduce their voice and influence. The fact is, no one would make a rant like Krusty's rant against Robin unless they cared deeply about this wiki's future. Daveh should count his lucky stars to have an admin that cares that much. Rpeh has done enough for this wiki for his opinion to be worthy of some consideration, despite the (understandable) lack of substantive contributions recently. You've found yourself in this situation where their dedication has become an annoyance to you, so you want them marginalized. Well, things always go smoother when you stifle the complainers, but sometimes disagreement is healthy. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::At this point, I really can't make a point without repeating those of others; oh well: here's my two cents. Though I've been mostly silent, throughout most of the recent drama, I've been keeping up on most everything major on this site (particularly on the AN and CP), and due to my detached view of things, I feel that my view is a little more objective than those involved.<br /> :::::#Though in the past I've generally sided with rpeh (so as to not digress here, I more or less agree with Krusty's opinion on the matter). I feel that ES's actions were the beginning of the end for this wiki; the site has, for the few months since, been nothing but a place for outrageous accusations, which in turn get short and rude responses, and a site where two separate schools of thought battle for dominance (best illustrated by the arguments between Krusty and RH70). While I am not of a mind to think that there is a conspiracy on this site (nor do I think anyone thinks that; I honestly see no place where Krusty literally says that certain editors are conspiring to bring this wiki down), I do think that Krusty was referring to said schools of thought when he mentioned &quot;cliques&quot;. On the one side, you have people like myself and Krusty, who feel that rpeh's de-adminning was unnecessary and an overreaction to *off-site behavior*, and that this site has been seized with a peculiar fever of &quot;less is more&quot; (no offense Minor Edits xD); by that, I mean that people seem to think that small additions and patrolling are more important than quality control and running a detailed, consistent site. On the other hand, you have users such as RH70 (who I am actually just as fond of as I am of Krusty, rpeh, ME, Legoless, or AKB, though I don't know him quite as well) feel opposite. I'm not saying that anyone's opinion is better than anyone else's, however this is undoubtedly one of the roots of the tensions here on UESP. In that respect, I do not agree with Thuum of Reason: yes, Krusty has every reason to quit, and yes these recent events do imply a downhill spiral; that's my opinion, in any event. <br /> :::::#As for rpeh's blocking: a month ago I would have said no. However, his recent behavior and constant attacks on other users show that he does not deserve to remain as an editor on this site for the time being. Since he is unwilling to take time to cool off of his own accord, we have little choice but to force him to do so. However, I would also ask that users refrain from making attacks on the past of rpeh and users like him; this is one reason why they continue to harbor resentment towards users on this site. So please, just realize that it takes two (many more in this case) to tango.<br /> :::::#On the second count, however, I must disagree. I myself see no real reason to remove Krusty's admin rights; he is already taking a wikibreak, and aside from one (understandable) intrusion in a recent RfA voting session, he shows no signs of doing what rpeh has done.<br /> :::::#I couldn't agree more with this last section. Although I may seem sympathetic towards rpeh and Krusty, it is only because they are human, not because they are senior editors. It is their nature (as it is mine or that of, say, Elliot, who is another member I hold in high esteem despite his participation in drama past and present) to quickly become short with users when it comes to what we perceive as injustices or foolish moves. I just tend to walk away, which is why nobody notices (to my knowledge); that's not really possible when you're a senior editor like the aforementioned users. However, though I understand this, I extend no extra rights towards these users, nor do I wish to have any such rights extended to myself should I ever become regarded as a &quot;senior editor&quot;.<br /> :::::Since this basically outlines how I feel about the state of UESP at the moment, I think I'll go ahead and go back to my wikibreak (despite what my page says, I am on a break for the weekend as far as editing goes). Happy editing everyone!--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}{{ec}} Minor Edits has hit the nail on the head. I agree to everything he's said above. Especially about rpeh's so called personal attacks: they were harsh, but not personal or uncalled for per se; and also especially about Krusty's devotion to the site, and the politics.. everything! That doesn't mean you're WRONG, AKB, definitely no reason to resign! Also, regarding me being banned from the IRC was a reaction of Krusty's frustration with how he thought the wiki was going downhill. He admits that was a big mistake and has apologized, and as far as I'm concerned it never happened ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :{{ec}}x2- I refrained from adding any comments to the RfA after Krusty's post because I thought keeping silent was the only way I could help to minimize the drama. Still, I have a billion things I would like to say, and have now typed out and deleted so many of them that it's taken me over twenty minutes to write two sentences...&lt;p&gt; I think that AKB has summed up so much of what needs to be said in a very logical and rational manner, and I agree with him on many (but not all) points. Since I didn't become an active editor until just before Rpeh left, I can't say much in regard to blocking him based on past history, but I do agree that his most recent contributions have been disruptive. Perhaps a warning would be best? Then, one more disruptive contribution would result in a block. That seems fair to me. As for Krusty, I don't think removing any administrative rights is necessary or appropriate, especially given his self-imposed break. And the third proposal is spot on. There's no point in having policies, rules, or guidelines if they only apply to the masses. Though I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency AKB may be referring to, I agree with this one ''on principle'' completely. There's no reason not to have the same standards for everyone.&lt;p&gt; There are a couple of Thuum's comments which really stick out to me: ''As a community, we are connected by our love for a great series of video games... as long as we're all here, we'll all be around to keep improving it.'' I have grown to love this site and its community, and while people will always have differences in opinion, I believe we can find a way to continue improving both the site and our interactions with one another. This should be fun and enjoyable, not tense, stressful, or drama-ridden. I do hope that anyone who has left in frustration over recent drama decides to return soon; it disappoints me to see them go, and think having them around can only benefit the site and its community. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:57, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}}x3-To reply to Kalis, it's small additions and patrolling versus quality control and consistency? Is that what this battle is all about? I don't know, but for the record, I don't think those concepts are mutually exclusive, nor do I think one is more important than the other. It seems to me it's more about personality conflicts making people lose perspective on why we're here. <br /> <br /> ::Here's my polestar: this should be the best, and preferably only, TES wiki around. I don't see any reason for another TES wiki to exist, and time people spend editing such sites is better spent here. To achieve total market capitalization, you fundamentally need numbers. Great numbers of editors brings great diversity of skills. Diversity allows for specialization. Specialization allows for maximized opportunity cost, meaning we get greater returns for the amount of time editors invest in this wiki over others. That maximized return on editors' time naturally produces a better product, and a better product means greater and greater popularity. Growth is readers brings growth in editors and the wiki just keeps refining itself. But it begins with numbers, and to grow and maintain your ranks, you can't sweat the small stuff. I feel that should be a formal policy itself, or perhaps just a corollary to the etiquette policy: &quot;don't sweat the small stuff&quot;. You people can antagonize each other over petty garbage until the whole thing crumbles like a house of cards, or you can be tolerant, and allow each other to make the wiki better in whatever ways you each can. Since I still think that's what rpeh and Krusty want to do, make the wiki better, I continue to support them. Making sure the UESP remains a big tent is the only way for it to reach its full potential. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:28, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::ABCface managed to say exactly what I was miserably failing to articulate. Blocking rpeh would be a rash move that, although justifiable, would do little more than strain the website even more. People are still peeved that he was de-adminned, and blocking him would only aggravate them more and prove little. De-adminning Krusty is also a terrible idea, which although certainly justifiable would also only harm the website even further. The last thing we need to do is take a hammer to the wiki at a time that it's so fragile.&lt;p&gt;As for the last proposal, I agree with it ''in principle'', but as ABCface said there's no reason ''not'' to have the same standards for everyone. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 03:30, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} People ''seriously'' need to stop defending rpeh. It is absolute insanity that people continue to... no. I'm going to call people out by name, because it needs to stop. [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], AKB didn't block rpeh because &quot;all he did was express an opinion [he] disagree[s] with&quot;. Rpeh made '''blatant''' personal attacks. The links provided by AKB are just a ''few'' of the disgusting remarks rpeh has made to other user around here. [[user:Alphabetface|Alphabetface]], we have given rpeh chance after chance after chance. Any other user would have been given the boot a long time ago. This is ''exactly'' what AKB means by providing experienced users with a different standard. [[user:Jak Atackka|Jak Atackka]], decision about retaining the integrity of the wiki shouldn't be based on &quot;who will this piss off&quot;. If a user has been poison to the wiki, then that poison must be removed. Plain and simple. A hammer is needed, because nothing will change without it.<br /> <br /> Even if you don't believe rpeh should be blocked for making personal attacks, he should be blocked for using a meatpuppet in the administration vote. He's already used a sockpuppet before, so why this was ignored is beyond my comprehension.<br /> <br /> Now, AKB, I absolutely agree with every action you have taken and suggested. [[user:Krusty|Krusty's]] continued attacks towards new user and user who happen to focus on edits other than content edits are problematic. His actions are not that of an administrator. I had a person who had never been on the wiki, and his comments shocked the person. They even wondered why they had any authority at all. Now, that's essentially hearsay, but I felt it necessary to mention. <br /> <br /> The leniency towards experienced editors does indeed need to stop, even towards myself (although I believe I get the leniency less than other edits, such as rpeh and Krusty). Users should not be able to buy their way out of indiscretion with an edit count. <br /> <br /> Again, AKB, I thank you for decisiveness with this issue. It was definitely needed. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 03:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :{{ec}}I'll do my best to reply to everyone here in opposition to my actions and call for action. If I miss any points, I apologize<br /> <br /> :First to Silencer, there are no &quot;cliques&quot; or whatever you want to call them. There is nothing to suggest that there is besides a few accusations without evidence backing them. To be crass, this topic in itself is rather ridiculous. Who the hell would create a conspiracy around taking over the volunteer positions of a gaming site? I would not assume that there is any sort of unofficial organization acting unilaterally on the site. As I do not count current evidence as being conclusive, if anyone has more proof, please feel free to contact me privately to avoid a derail of current discussion.<br /> <br /> :Second to Minor Edits. All users can speak their mind, as long as they follow etiquette. Creating a hostile environment for users does not benefit any line of thought. They were indeed in violation of site etiquette as I interpreted them. Even if the points in question needed to be said for their opposition to count (and they did not, if they simply claimed that his actions when it came to patrolling and user relations were outside their standards, their would of been no issue), there were much less volatile ways to say them. Unless I have a much poorer grasp on the English language than previously believed, I don't see how I interpreted their comments incorrectly. I also wish to state that I hold a deep respect for both rpeh and Krusty, and even consider them to have been mentors to me in times of need. Finally, I wish to point out that I did not participate in Robin's RFA, the IRC (at all), rpeh's de-adminning, or the Request for a New Group shortly after starting it.<br /> <br /> :Third to Kalis Agea, I don't really consider myself to be of a similar line of thought as Robin when it comes to editing. I mainly add content, at least those are the edits I make that I care about. I would also add that I agree that attacking rpeh is inappropriate, as it is for literally anyone on the site to to do to anyone. I, however, can't find myself wishing to allow Krusty to remain an admin. He is a distinguished editor who has helped me more than I think I am capable of admitting without giving him credit for most of my NPC work. However, I don't see how allowing him to remain an admin helps us. He is human and prone to mistakes just as much as any of us are, but it's not like what we write is revealed in real-time. We have time to temper our reactions. If a user doesn't take the time to do that, especially for major posts, they are likely to make mistakes or say some really harmful things. Krusty did this, partially inspiring some users to leave. He has made a lot of errors recently when it comes to policy and user relations. Removing administrative rights will surely help cool down in the end. Ultimately, the option to become an admin again if the right is removed is still available. For now, he should not have the rights.<br /> <br /> :Fourth to Dwarf, I agree that Krusty is dedicated to the site. Dedication doesn't make one immune from making mistakes, even if they are out of love. As for him caring for site politics, what are these? We have ****ing politics? What the hell??? I thought we were just a bunch of fans of a game series creating a collaborative guide on it, not freaking politicians. If anyone has ever made a move for &quot;political&quot; reasons, then they don't get the purpose of the site, at least from what I've seen of it. Also, I only intend to resign if my third recommended course of action isn't met, which basically requires the other two to happen, I admit. I don't believe I can administrate this site if everyone gets into a frenzy over &quot;He said, she said, you can interpret this action or what this person said to mean this&quot; every few months. Especially when the current consensus suggests just not making any definitive actions to stop it.<br /> <br /> :Onto ABCface, lenience will not resolve these issues. The issues leading up to this were met with lenience, and we all saw what that lead to. Further leniency will only lead to continued problems.<br /> <br /> :Next onto Minor Edits second reply, not sweating the small stuff is what lead to these major problems. I don't see how you can consider them to be anything else when administrators are walking out. The best way to deal with the recent problems are the actions I suggested.<br /> <br /> :Finally to reply to Jak Attacka. Why in the same paragraph that you state that being lenient would be beneficial in this situation do you say that my call for an end to leniency is correct? I don't get it. I'm sorry if I'm interpreting what you wrote wrong, please correct me if I don't understand. Blocking rpeh doesn't strain the site in any way besides an emotional one that I admit I don't understand, he hasn't contributed positively for months. And I don't see how Krusty can't continue to edit without administrative rights for the foreseeable future. Administrative tools aren't a right, they are a privilege given to people we don't think will mess up with them (that badly). --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::My point on leniency was apparently not made clear. What I was trying to get across is that leniency is not tolerable. The same standards should apply to everyone-- whether they are admins or not. When I said &quot;on principle&quot; I didn't mean that I don't agree. I meant that I haven't been around long enough to have seen many instances of the leniency you were referring to. [[User:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;ABCface&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alphabetface|&lt;font color=&quot;Teal&quot;&gt;◥&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:47, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}} In reply to elliot's comment about blocking for meatpuppetry, I'm not sure using a meatpuppet is a blockable offense. If it was a sockpuppet, sure, but a meatpuppet implies that rpeh or Krusty contacted ''someone else'' specifically to have them vote on the matter. That's just Electioneering 101. The meatpuppet's vote counts as much as the next person's, the only difference is that a suspected meatpuppet's opinion is far less persuasive to others, and may repulse some voters who would have otherwise voted in the same way as the meatpuppet. The punishment already fits the &quot;crime&quot;.<br /> <br /> :::I support AKB's third proposal, I just think he and I have different understandings on what constitutes leniency for long-time contributors and how to interpret the etiquette policy. I don't think I've extended long-term contributors any inherent privilege not available to a new editor. I think that's because I'm more lenient towards everyone in general- whether their anons, new accounts, or admins - compared to others. I think a big reason for this difference is that I never stop assuming good faith until I absolutely have to, regardless of how long someone has been contributing or what position they may have on the site. I extend to rpeh and Krusty the same courtesy I would give to any new user and presume that they are not here to cause trouble, but rather to make the wiki better. Re-reading their comments on Robin's RfA, I think the only way to conclude that either of them made a personal attack is by assuming that they made the appearance for malicious reasons, and not because they had legitimate reasons to oppose making Robin an admin. So in short, that's what I meant when I said don't sweat the small stuff: the assuming good faith policy should act as a guide for how to interpret and construe other policies. So, if there's any reasonable doubt about whether a person's comments violated the etiquette policy, for example, then the doubt should be decided in that person's favor. When it comes to the actions of rpeh and Krusty, I sincerely doubt that they have violated basic etiquette. Others have found what they had to say offensive, and thus imputed them with the intention to be disruptive and offensive. I don't think that's fair, so I won't hold to it. <br /> <br /> :::You're aces, AKB; I didn't mean to imply you were executing some kind of inappropriate vendetta against them. I assume good faith, and I guess I presume others will assume it in my words. And I hope that no one is assigning anger to me; I don't hold grudges, and I take pride in having a disagreement and resolving it amicably whether my opinion was heeded or not. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} You're right, my last point wasn't clear at all. I'm still trying to make sense of this entire situation. Just forget what I said there - I'm still undecided on the issue. I certainly agree with it in principle, but in action I always give a fair bit of leeway to our more experienced editors. Part of this is that as the representatives of our website, they have much more attention focused on them, and their mistakes are amplified. Part of it is blatant rationalization on my part - I'm still trying to figure out how much. That's a topic I've given a lot of thought yet still don't have a clear idea on. Looks like this'll be a busy weekend.&lt;p&gt;The way I see it, there are two different approaches to this obvious problem. The first is to approach the policy aspect of it. An editor abuses their privileges, they get punished. It does not matter who did it, they are all treated equally. The other approach is the personal aspect. This action will cause much more harm than good, so it shouldn't be done. Blindly applying policy versus completely ignoring it and allow our editors to do whatever they want because they have a high edit count. Both arguments are valid. I can't say which one I support, because frankly I don't know.&lt;p&gt;That's the abstract side of this whole debate. The literal side is how we treat the abuses themselves. I strongly dislike what rpeh did, and it is quite frankly disgraceful. I did defend him before, but after discussing it with [[User:Elliot|Elliot]] I've since changed my stance on the issue. I'm not sure about blocking him. On the one hand, I strongly dislike the idea of blocking people (besides IPs and spammers) because it'll most likely turn them off the wiki for good, but on the other hand I think rpeh is gone for good anyways. I am also unsure about Krusty's de-adminship, but I'm leaning towards opposing it (meaning he should stay admin).&lt;p&gt;If you are looking for my stance on the issues, they are currently undecided, undecided, and undecided. This discussion has given me food for thought, and I'm going to have to mull over this a while before I have anything meaningful to say. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 05:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break===<br /> <br /> {{od}} [[user:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]], please do not continue to ignore such behavior. Your type of thinking is precisely what has allowed this to go on for so long. Regardless, [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]] is a serious offense. <br /> :''Sock puppetry policy defines &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; as the recruitment of new editors to Wikipedia for the purpose of influencing or editing on a Wikipedia matter. This is forbidden, and new accounts which engage in the same behavior as a banned editor or blocked account in the same context, and who appear to be editing Wikipedia solely for that purpose, are subject to the remedies applied to the editor whose behavior they are imitating. ([[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Banning_policy|source]])<br /> Whenever we don't have an established policy, we defer to Wikipedia. Please also see the [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Agapetos_angel|Arbitration decision]] that banned a user and her meatpuppets. So yes, Minor Edits, it is blockable (see [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:List_of_banned_users|Wikipedia:List of banned users]] and just search for the term ''meatpuppet''). I don't know how I can make this point any clearer. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 07:34, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Alright, let's see if I can't pull of making a coherent post after all. :)<br /> ::Firstly, in response to Minor Edits, perhaps I should rephrase. The point I was trying to make (rather unsuccessfully) is that the idea of a &quot;clique&quot; and a schism of sorts is not so much literal (i.e. there is no conspiracy to take over the wiki on the part of any editor(s); I didn't get that message from Krusty's posts at all, as some others did). In no way am I trying to say that editing preferences are destroying the wiki (if only it were that simple!). Rather, I am saying that there are certain editors who already have something against a certain editor or other groups of editors (I hope that makes sense). These editors will find anything to use as ammunition against others, even something so trivial as editing preferences. I was merely supplying an example of the many-layered complexity that has become the drama of UESP.<br /> ::Now, as for AKB: I suppose I see your point; I also see that you are quite determined to see this through. I don't have any real reason to oppose point #2 other than that I don't yet known how Krusty feels about this. Once that is known, I will be able to say &quot;yea&quot; or &quot;nay&quot;, should this come to a vote.<br /> ::My main point in the first place was simply that the past few months have seen an unfortunate and dramatic turn of events with which I am highly dissatisfied; so much so that I have refrained from posting responses longer than a small paragraph on such issues. Even now, I see no reason to continue actively editing on such a site, especially when I have very little left to actually contribute to it time-wise. At the same time, I feel that I am most likely just overreacting and should just leave the site completely and come back with a level head; a fresh start, as it were. And for my part I intend to do so.--[[User:Kalis Agea|Kalis Agea]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Kalis Agea|Yes?]] [[Special:Contributions/Kalis Agea|Contrib]] [[Special:EmailUser/Kalis Agea|E-mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:09, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::As much as I hate to admit it, rpeh has been making too many personal attacks lately. I don't have to like it, but if he can't be constructive, blocking him might be the best solution. That's the only thing I'll voice a definite stance on, as I'm still not sure where I stand on #2. I will say that before doing anything rash that will invite more trouble, we should take everything into consideration. As Krusty is always saying, we need to think of the consequences our actions will most likely have. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 11:00, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::AKB, I agree that there's leniency that causes a lot of trouble. And you're right about that it should stop. As Kalis Agea said, before we debate whether Krusty should be de-admined for a while or not, I'd rather hear what he has to say about it (because if he simply agrees with stepping down for a while, then why argue). As for rpeh's block, Elliot raised a good point regarding the meat-puppetry. I have absolutely no qualms with that block if the reason is changed to meat-puppetry. Seeing as you said it was simple recruitment, AKB, that just proves there's politics on the site. I agree that the whole politics business is bad for the wiki, because in the end, we're all headed towards the same goal: improving the wiki ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:16, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::I can't agree with either of points 1 or 2, i'll comment on the 'clique' as well. I wouldn't there has ever, or will ever, be a conspiracy. What I meant is: that whilst the two groups oppose each other they are obviously not putting as much thought into editing as they could be. Blocking rpeh can only possibly drive him away further, so thats an editor who has made 78944 edits being discarded for a further amount when he could be contributed positively to UESP? (Thats not counting the 81516 edits his bot made under his control). That just seems odd. Removing Krustys Admin rights in my opinion gets even odder, but I don't have much other than his contributions in either of there defenses. On the subject of coming back to vote, they both obviously felt the need to voice there opinions on the matter. I think the leniency levels work... to a degree. A bit more strict yes, (3 strikes and your out rule in regards to warnings?), but not by loads I don't think. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 14:23, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::[[user:Kiz|Kiz]], can you please tell me what makes up a personal attack in your mind? Calling a user a &quot;total disgrace&quot;? Calling a user a &quot;troll&quot;? I mean, please let me know, because apparently, rpeh can say whatever he wants, and you wouldn't care because you are afraid of &quot;driving him away&quot;. Did you miss the entire point of holding a double standard for experienced editors? '''Your thinking is part of the problem.''' And you also said that rpeh could have contributed positively... sorry, but from what rpeh has told me, he has no intentions of coming back, which makes his actions ''that'' much more worse. I could understand if this were his first time attacking another user, but it's not. This is just an endless cycle perpetuated by users who let him get away with it. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 17:20, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}If we're starting on personal attacks elliot, don't bother, you called me a troll in IRC which is no better at all, by your standards that makes you as bad as rpeh. I purposely avoided commenting on personal attacks, because I have no further comments on the matter. --&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:large&quot;&gt;[[User:Kiz|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#B8860B&quot;&gt;kiz&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; {{#ifeq:{{PAGENAME}}|Kiz| &lt;span style=font-size:85%&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/span&gt; | &lt;small style=&quot;white-space:nowrap&quot;&gt;&lt;sup style=&quot;position:absolute&quot;&gt;'''[[User_Talk:Kiz|talk]]'''&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub style=&quot;padding-right: 35px&quot;&gt;'''[[Special:EmailUser/Kiz|email]]'''&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt;}} 17:27, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I'd like to point out that saying I called him a troll is a complete fabrication. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 01:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :After some thought, I have to agree with [[user:Elliot|Elliot]] here and call for rpeh to be banned. I strongly dislike banning people, but rpeh has clearly violated the rules (with both [[User:RobinHood70/RfA|personal attacks]] and [[wikipedia:WP:MEAT|meatpuppetry]]) and clearly has nothing constructive to add to this wiki. He can't hide behind his edit count, and people need to stop blinding themselves with his contributions. Rpeh needs to be banned. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:45, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I've taken some time to think about this, and in light of recent events, I feel it would be entirely inappropriate for me to comment about what actions should be taken in regards to rpeh and Krusty, though I will say that I don't think it's fair to take any action ''in absentia''. Instead, I'll focus on point three, as well as some of the ensuing discussion.<br /> <br /> ::As anyone who's ever been in a position of authority knows, there's a balance between ignoring the rules and enforcing them. Different people tend towards different sides of that. On a wiki, when it goes too far towards ignoring, people often have a lot of fun at first, but many quickly become frustrated with the unfair application or non-application of rules and they stop editing. After all, why have rules if nobody pays attention to them - it only lets bullies come to the fore. When it goes too far towards enforcing, people often like the structure and fairness at first, but tend to stop editing when it becomes an authoritarian regime. Similarly to the above, why edit when the slightest misstep gets you a warning or a block?<br /> <br /> ::I think it's fair to say that in more recent times, the wiki has tended more towards the ignoring side than the enforcing side. I would go so far as to say that it has swung too far to that side, and yes, some people are feeling unfairly treated. Obviously, AKB tends more towards enforcement than we've had in recent times, and I think that can only be a good thing, since it will undoubtedly be balanced out by those who take a less strict view of things.<br /> <br /> ::In regards to our various policies, specifically those around personal attacks, I'd like to point out that personal attacks aren't the be all and end all. The [[Project:Etiquette|Etiquette]] policy also includes statements like the very first bullet point, and bolded no less, &quot;Be patient and courteous&quot;. It also includes points about being polite and assuming good faith. I agree with AKB that any long-term editor, regardless of what rights they may have, should be held to ''at least'' the same standards as others. If you've been a regular editor around a wiki for more than a few months, it should be pretty clear how they're supposed to work. If you've been around for a few years, these sorts of things should come naturally. Sure, we all have times when our temper gets the best of us or something just plain comes out wrong, but we apologize for them and move on. It's when the apologies aren't sincere or are absent altogether, particularly when someone points out the issue, that the etiquette policy and others really need to be brought into play in my mind.<br /> <br /> ::Kiz brings up a great idea with the three strikes rule, or some variant of it. This sort of thing has been used very successfully in forums for ages, and even Wikipedia has a variation of it with their [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:WikiProject_user_warnings/Usage_and_layout#Levels|user-warning levels]]. I think if we combine that with a balance of [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Template the regulars|Template the regulars]] (for warnings about etiquette and similar issues) and [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Don't template the regulars|Don't template the regulars]] (for reminders about previewing, signatures, etc.), we'll have a workable system that's fair to everyone. There would need to be some method of having warnings removed over time, but specifics of any such system might be best for a new topic. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:58, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Edit Break 2===<br /> The first thing I thought when coming across this section was: &quot;Wow! Steady on guys!&quot; I've only just made sense of this flood of drama given my prolonged absence and I was surprised to find so many competent editors, most of which I held in high esteem when I was active, are literally at their throats. This obviously can't be constructive. I have problems with the first two issues proposed by AKB. I have thought a lot about them and have had private talks with both users involved, who I'm not afraid to consider friends. I've already given my opinion on rpeh's block, so I'll tackle the second point before explaining why I'm 100% behind the third point.<br /> <br /> Krusty's de-admin request is not a good idea, as many above have pointed out. Most importantly, Krusty has already decided to take a wiki break and cool-off. Yes, Krusty did return to oppose RH's RfA (as if that were a reason to be stripped of adminship!) and to be honest, whether you agree with his points or not, he did bring forth the fact that there was a rift in the community and people have acted on it largely thanks to his post. His words for a certain group of users certainly wasn't loving but there is no denying that there are some editors, and there have been for as long as I've been here, who see themselves as the paladins of righteousness; always ready to jump when they perceive &quot;abuses of power&quot; and conveniently forget their own precedents (and in case anyone is wondering, [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#De-Patrollership_Request_for_Elliot I'm talking about Elliot]). Krusty's &quot;idiocy&quot; comment and his blocking of Dwarfmp on IRC stand out as his worst actions as administrator, but if we look at the bigger picture of his adminship it is clear these are the exception, not the rule. Everyone makes mistakes and this was at a time of great stress. Removing his administrator rights now would be the worse course of action.<br /> <br /> The third point, which I believe should have been the thrust of this post but was inevitably overtaken by the other two, is a very, very good point. Although personally I don't believe I have ever been given any sort of special treatment, it is true, as RH pointed out, that there is a history of this sort of behaviour on UESP. Cracking down on that is everyone's interest. It hard to write up policy for this sort of thing. What we need is for everyone of us to say: let's draw the line here and now - we won't tolerate privileged treatment anymore. I know this may seem to contradict my opposition to Krusty's de-admining but if we decide to crack down on this behaviour we must do it for all who have benefitted from it in the past, not just the convenient recent targets. Because this isn't feasible, let's start off with a blank sheet, but let's be serious. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:55, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Nice to see you come back. If you feel like trying to bring me down in order to invalidate my opinion, then you need to go to another wiki. I know what I've done, and I know what I've ''not'' done. So, if you are going to bring up a '''two year old discussion''' in order to disparage me, then let's bring up ''every single thing that rpeh has done wrong'' (remember, this is a discussion about '''rpeh'''). That's sarcasm, by the way. We are discussing things that have happened in '''2012''', not '''2009''', so if you could keep your points relevant, that would be a great help. Thanks. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:05, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Good to see you back from you wiki-break too Elliot! Two days have been long and hard without you! (That's also sarcasm by the way.) The reason why I mentioned you should be obvious. I don't like to make claims without supporting them with facts (I couldn't care less when they occurred) and I wanted to avoid people thinking I was accusing them. Also, please stop victimising yourself. That link isn't even close to being the central point of my post, but rather an aside to avoid confusion. It isn't always all about you Elliot (you're honestly not ''that'' important) and, despite your claims to the contrary, this conversation isn't '''just''' about rpeh. It's actually about a lot of things, which include rpeh's block. If you stepped back and stopped your hatred of rpeh guiding your every action, you'd see all this by yourself. Really do try to do this: I'm ''actually'' off to study for my finals so I won't be here to explain it to you again. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:31, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::I never did say it was about me. But I don't really hate rpeh, it's more of hating how people give him special treatment, including yourself. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:43, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Page Protection ==<br /> <br /> I've been doing some more bot work tonight, and I've come up with a list of pages where the expected page protection doesn't match the actual page protection. You can see the list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]. (Sorry for the reverse page sorting...change in logic that I forgot to fix before the bot ran.) Mostly these are archives, but I've added checking for our Javascript pages, site financial data, and I'd like to suggest that we also protect the various [[UESP:Messages]] subpages as well. Now, I have a few questions:<br /> <br /> # Do the pages in the list all look like reasonable pages to add the suggested level of protection to?<br /> # Are there any others the bot should be checking?<br /> # Once we're happy with what the bot feels needs to be changed, do we want it to go ahead and change them all or would an Admin rather do it?<br /> <br /> A little background on that last question: when we originally granted bots permission to change page rights, rpeh was an Admin and he was the only one actively running a bot at the time, so it was of little consequence. In my case, the bot's rights exceed my own, so I thought I should check that nobody had concerns with that. The bot can be made to either produce a report or actually change the rights at the flick of a switch, so it's not a big concern for me either way. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:01, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I personally don't have any objections to it, but I'm not an admin. You only suggested semi-protecting [[Daggerfall talk:Vampirism/Archive]] - you should also archive [[Daggerfall:Vampirism/Archive]]. • [[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot; style=&quot;line-height:1.0; font-size:16px; font-family:DragonscriptRegular; color:#4faf4f;&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Jak Atackka|&lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:black;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;]] 18:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::{{ec}} Please note that due to a design change in MediaWiki a while ago, some older protected pages aren't being reported as such. I'll ask Nephele or Dave to run the maintenance script that updates this and regenerate the list shortly.<br /> <br /> ::Jak: Currently, the bot isn't looking for archives in non-talk pages other than UESPWiki. It's not hard to do, but I'm concerned that it would probably get a lot of false hits as a result. Once I've gotten Neph or Dave to run the maintenance script, I'll see what the bot would &quot;want&quot; to protect if I included all namespaces. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:57, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::'''For the Admin who has too much time on their hands:''' ;-) can I get someone to unprotect and reprotect the following list of pages? From what I've been able to gather Googling around a bit, they were all protected a long time ago when we were on an older version of MediaWiki and the internal protection coding has changed since then. The maintenance script failed to fix the problem for whatever reason, so a number of pages aren't showing as protected in some lists, but they're fine in others. In addition to the obvious issues it's causing with my bot getting confused (which is a minor concern that I can work around), it's possible that the protection may not propagate properly whenever we do future MediaWiki upgrades and we might not even be aware we'd lost it, which is a much bigger concern. Anyway, here's the list of the pages the bot identified &lt;s&gt;initially, though there could well be others that the bot wasn't designed to pick up on. I'll need to do some programming, and checking will take a bit of time in and of itself, but I'll add to this list if I find more.&lt;/s&gt; Unless Daveh is planning to upgrade the wiki in the next few days and surprise everyone, there's no big hurry. :)<br /> <br /> {{Showhide/Start|Oddly Protected Pages}}<br /> :::* [[:File:Mainpage-logo.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Somerights.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:UespPages.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:File:Wiki.png]] (full)<br /> :::* [[:Index.php]] (full) - note: this one can be hard to get to due to the redirect to the main page. Use [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Index.php&amp;redirect=no this] to get there<br /> :::* [[:Main Page]] (full)<br /> :::* [[General:Links]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[MediaWiki:Common.css]] (full)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Arena (faction)/Archive 2]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Battlehorn Castle (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Deepscorn Hollow (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Frostcrag Spire (place)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Mazoga the Orc (quest)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion talk:Umbra (person)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Glitches]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Oblivion:Oblivion]] (Edit=semi Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Shadowkey:Shadowkey]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Muffle (effect)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[Skyrim talk:Thieves Guild (faction)/Archive 1]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:About]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Photo&quot; Category]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP &quot;Special&quot; tips?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP IRC Meeting (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP The main namespace, and its use (or lack thereof)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/CP Why Put Quests Under &quot;Quests&quot; Article?]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Archive/Other Subpages (And why we need them)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Bad Addresses]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyright and Ownership]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Copyrights]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (2)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Roleplaying (3)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tamriel:Atronach (Daedra)]] (semi)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:History]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:IRC]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Oblivion Places Redesign Project]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Costs]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Account Balance]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/April 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/August 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/December 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/July 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/June 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/March 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/May 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/November 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/October 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/September 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2006]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2007]] (full)<br /> :::* [[UESPWiki:Spam Blacklist]] (full)<br /> :::* [[User talk:Rpeh]] (Edit=none, Move=full)<br /> :::* [[User:ShakenMike]] (full)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> :::&lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::I've unprotected all (but 1, read additional info below) of those pages and reprotected them accordingly, all with infinite expire time (assuming that was necessary for all). This one: [[MediaWiki:Common.css]], didn't have a protection tab, Krusty says that's up to Nephele or Daveh to do, so I did all I could :) ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 14:55, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::That's great, Dwarfmp! I don't think the Common.css file is all that big of a concern, since the entire MediaWiki space is limited to editing by Admins only in the first place, so even if it loses its protection at some point in the distant future, not much will actually have changed.<br /> <br /> :::::Now, does anybody have any concerns with the bot protecting the various archive pages list [[User:HotnBOThered/Results|here]]? I've got a tiny bit more code tweaking to do, so rather than drag this out too long, since I know everyone's busy, I'll go ahead and protect the pages appropriately unless someone objects within the next 48 hours. My thinking is that we could easily have created an Admin Bots group if we'd been all that concerned about it, but we didn't, so it seems reasonable to me that if we gave all bots the right to protect/unprotect pages, that we should feel free to do exactly that, especially since I'm duplicating the exact task they were given that right for in the first place. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:39, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Rpeh's Block Appeal ==<br /> <br /> Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all editors are entitled to an appeal on the Administrator Noticeboard, so at Rpeh's request, I am starting a thread here, and posting what has been said on his [[User talk:Rpeh|talk page]], so that everyone can see it, and he can provide his argument for appealing the block. I am aware that some may not see me as the guy to start an appeal for him, but we have to play this by the books. [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:52, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Please specify the alleged &quot;personal attacks&quot; and &quot;multiple disruptions&quot;, and please highlight the warnings given about them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I would first like to start off by saying that no formal warning has been given about this. However, as UESP [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] states: ''&quot;Although this three-step process [Warn, Temporary Block, Permanent Block] is the normal procedure, administrators have the authority to bypass one or more steps at their discretion.&quot;'' The policy page goes onto include personal attacks as a reason to not just bypass a warning, but can be grounds for an immediate permanent block. I made note to remove any mention of a warning from this block due to this. <br /> <br /> ::As for your request for examples, you have [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 claimed that Daveh is sycophant and incompetent], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 left a sarcastic reply to a user during a previous request to have you blocked], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 claimed that RH70 was sucking up to other users] (according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F Wikipedia Policy], accusing a user of a certain kind of behavior without evidence to back it up is considered a personal attack), and you were disruptive when a user's eligibility in a discussion was called into question due to perceived signs of meat puppetry [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935811 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 here]. <br /> <br /> ::I apologize that I don't have time to go into detail with anything but I'm rather busy IRL at the moment. I may be disposed to reply swiftly to any other message, but I will try to get back to you. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Quite simply, none of those are personal attacks. At a pinch, the comment to Daveh was on the line, but it took place over two months ago so handing out a three month block now is a clear violation of natural justice. As for my comments on RH, Krusty had already provided the evidence. I was simply adding my voice in support. No justification for this block, so please undo ASAP. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do have to add that, and I quote: &quot;A pattern of hostility reduces the likelihood of the community assuming good faith, and can be considered [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing disruptive editing].&quot; Considering your inactivity on the site, it is likely these posts were meant to harm the wiki.<br /> <br /> ::::If that doesn't convince you this block was justified, I'll add [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935490 this link], a vote which is suspected to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry meat puppetry]. Since meat puppetry is as good as impossible to prove, it is up to an administrator to act as a judge. Considering the user in question has made a total of only 4 [[Special:Contributions/Haysie|contributions]], of which 2 are edits to their userpage, and the other 2 being the vote on the rfa, it is highly unlikely this person has sufficient knowledge to cast an actual vote. While it is not impossible for the user to have observed the wiki, the lack of previous votes since they subscribed leads one to believe they also lack the interest to vote. If you check their [[User:Haysie|userpage]], you can read the following line: ''&quot;I am a newbie to the Elder Scrolls world - having been introduced by Rob, one of the admins on this very portal.&quot;'' At the time this addition was made, you, '''Robert''', were an admin. This should provide enough evidence of you two being friends, which makes their vote (in which your argument was simply repeated) a mere &quot;back-up&quot; from a friend, which is prohibited ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 18:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I'm quite honestly astonished by the hypocrisy taking place on this site at the moment. I was de-adminned because I committed &quot;censorship&quot; by removing a totally unproductive discussion from the site. Now I'm blocked for standing up for my right to comment on an RfA and a user's right to cast a vote? Seriously???<br /> ::::: The entire premise behind this block is that nobody making the active users list deserves a right to vote. That is, quite simply, wrong. The reasons behind ''my'' block then move on to what ''another user'' has said on their user page! Seriously, people! Try putting forward this kind of &quot;evidence&quot; in a real court and see how far you get!<br /> ::::: I have made ''no'' personal attacks and committed ''no'' other blockable offence, yet was banned without warning. An unblock is the least that needs to be done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all users are entitled to an appeal on the AN. Is this to be considered and appeal, and shall I move this for you, Rpeh? [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I was wondering how long it would take. Yes, please. There's absolutely no justification for this block. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Absolutely not. Considering he still sees nothing wrong with meatpuppetry and his attacks on other editors, I feel compelled to ask for an admin to ''extend'' the block, rather than shorten it. I have made my comments in the [[#Actions to be Made|above section]], so there is not much else I can say on the matter. [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 20:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I'm not going to comment too much on this because I don't have a lot of time on my hands. All I'll say is that if rpeh should be blocked at all, the only grounds that should be debated upon are the alleged meatpuppet. That's all. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:53, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::So how is it appropriate to ignore rpeh's attacks other users again? [[User:Elliot|elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;([[User_talk:Elliot|talk]])&lt;/small&gt; 21:10, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I support the block based on the links others have provided, and believe them to be attacks on individuals, indirectly or directly. Saying ''&quot;Unfortunately, you decided to go for &quot;Oh, good!&quot; and sycophancy instead of actual competence.&quot;'' may or may not have been insulting Daveh, but it most definitely insulted RH70 by calling him a sycophant and incompetent. ''&quot;As for the claim about competence: I've got a TESV map up and running. It works well, and I've played around with things like gamma correction and contrast so that it doesn't look too bad. Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;'' is an inappropriate insult to competence when something more like ''&quot;I've got a map up and running that looks pretty good, and I know you're not too great at maps, so I'm fairly confident in my competence.&quot;'' would have worked just fine. It's a minor difference, but that last line in his post--''&quot;Tell me, RobinHood70, how does '''your''' map look?&quot;''--was completely unnecessary and rude. ([[Wikipedia:Civility#Identifying_incivility|Civility]] guidelines say that ''&quot;belittling a fellow editor, including the use of judgmental edit summaries or talk-page posts (e.g. &quot;that is the stupidest thing I have ever seen&quot;, &quot;snipped crap&quot;)&quot;'' counts as rudeness, and I view that statement as being judgmental in this manner.)<br /> <br /> :::::''&quot;His main input has been to spend hours splitting hairs and pushing his own idiosyncratic POV on policy debates while doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates, and sucking up to people he thinks will benefit his wiki career.&quot;'' On one hand, I can see how this is an evaluation, but on another, it's snide insults. If someone's messing with templates in a way you don't like, it can be changed or conversations can be had. Everyone has the right to voice their opinions on policy debates. Typos and other tiny edits are absolutely necessary towards the quality of the articles on this wiki. They may not be large edits, but one need not insult another's activities based on the amount of the page that is edited (''&quot;nothing but fixing typos&quot;'').<br /> <br /> :::::Calling RH70 a &quot;total disgrace&quot; for calling up a policy is something that absolutely does not assume good faith. It was a discussion of established wiki policies, and the insult was not necessary, along with saying that RH70 was ignoring policy despite him bringing one up. If it was not a misunderstanding on rpeh's part, then it seems more like needless aggression to me.<br /> <br /> :::::If I have misunderstood anything here, please point it out. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 21:45, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Okay, let's do this &quot;by the book&quot; then and examine all the examples of rpeh's conduct being used to support his block. First of all, rpeh never accused Daveh of sycophancy or incompetence. Rather, he accused Daveh of &quot;going for&quot; (i.e., supporting) sycophancy over competence. He confirmed this in the second comment AKB linked to, where he stated that he had previously accused Daveh of being &quot;subject to sycophancy&quot; (again, not calling Daveh a sycophant; the sycophant is the flatterer, and rpeh was saying Daveh was the person being influenced by flattery). I don't agree with rpeh's assessment, but it's a stretch to say he had no basis for thinking that way.<br /> <br /> ::::::The second comment AKB cites to is sarcastic, yes, but I think we're going down a very dangerous road when we start saying that ''sarcasm'' is a blockable offense. I believe utilizing sarcasm to drive a point home can be done at the discretion of every user here, rpeh included. As for the third comment about RH &quot;sucking up&quot; to people, rpeh incorporated by reference Krusty's reasoning, which mentioned several concrete situations where RH's conduct could be perceived that way. So it's false to say that rpeh accused RH of certain kinds of behavior with no evidence to back it up.<br /> <br /> ::::::There's something in the background of this discussion that I feel should be brought to the fore: some people seem to believe that making our jobs easier is the same as making the wiki better. It's not. It is wrong to assume that any &quot;disruption&quot; a person may cause is necessarily detrimental to the site. It may be easier for some to block rpeh or someone like him than to allow him or her their right to speak on the site concerning site matters. We wouldn't have to convince them, argue against them, or be challenged by them. However, it would not necessarily make the wiki better, and that's what the goal should be. Making our jobs easier is fine up and until we reach a matter where our jobs are ''supposed'' to be hard. People management is not easy, but it's not supposed to be, and simply silencing people for the sake of convenience is the coward's way out.<br /> <br /> ::::::Anyways, it's clear to me, at least, that the months-old comments AKB dredged up were only mentioned to buttress the weak foundation for this block, and really the only substantive reason was rpeh's opposition to RH's RfA and the suspicion of meatpuppetry. Allow me to reiterate: (1) Opposing someone in an RfA by expressing an opinion on the merits of the candidate for adminship is a valid form of participation and not a &quot;disruption&quot; to the site, (2) &quot;meatpuppetry&quot; is just a derogatory term for what is, essentially, an acceptable electioneering practice which doesn't justify a block, (3) the punishment for suspected meatpuppetry is that it is unpersuasive and repulsive to other voters, and that it may be discounted by Daveh, ''not'' the implementation of a block, and (4) blocking rpeh over likely misguided perceptions and prejudices rather than for actual violations of UESP's policies and standards is offensive to my conscience.<br /> <br /> ::::::In response to Vely, when you say rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment was &quot;needless&quot;, how do you define what was needed or not? The presumed goal was to dissuade others from voting for Robin, who already had a substantial number of votes in his favor (including my own). Hopes of achieving his goal must have looked bleak, and rpeh likely felt he needed to state his opinion as forcefully as he could to help turn the tide against Robin's nomination. Judging by the aftermath, he was correct in that assessment. And while &quot;total disgrace&quot; is hardly favorable, it's clearly rpeh's assessment of the merits of Robin as a candidate to be an admin, in the appropriate forum, and ''not'' a personal attack or grounds for a block. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:07, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}RH70 pointed out a policy with suspicions about Haysie--without definitively stating more than that suspicion--to which rpeh replied with a statement that RH70 was misusing policy. I don't see how a simple mention of a policy (with reasonable suspicion, as the only person we know Haysie knows on here is rpeh and there were only userpage edits before then) is grounds for being called a disgrace. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 23:20, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :I'm genuinely hurt by what I'm seeing. I respected rpeh as an editor, and I don't deny that I don't approve of how he was de-admin'd, but if he shouldn't have been then, he definitely should be now. Regardless of what happened, there is no reason to speak so harshly with so little provocation on so many occasions. I'm equally disappointed to be seeing so many editors I used to have so much respect for using semantics as a way to justify needlessly provocative comments. Let me repeat: I &lt;i&gt;supported&lt;/i&gt; rpeh, and even I can't deny that his posts are inflammatory. As Kenny said, we cannot continue to overlook infractions because of a history of good contributions. Hell, if Daveh himself started breaking the community rules and being rude like this while never contributing anything worthwhile, I doubt many people would disagree with a demand for his resignation. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 23:41, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::{{ec}} To Velyanthe, I don't see how, either; Rpeh's explanation was not perfectly clear (again, not a blockable offense). I imagine it went something like this: he understood the wiki policies to mean that all users are presumptively welcome to participate. He also must have thought, rightly or wrongly, that the users were preparing to categorically discount Haysie's vote and that there was nothing in the policies which allowed for this. The most relevant sentence, &quot;Certain comments may be discounted if there are suspicions of fraud; these may be the contributions of very new editors, sockpuppets, and meatpuppets&quot;, does not specify ''who'' may discount a vote or what measure of certainty is needed. So he either thought that this was guidance for individuals, that they may consider a vote so unpersuasive so as to not count it at all, or else that it allowed a vote to be categorically discounted by an administrator at the final tally, but doing so required hard evidence, not circumstantial evidence like what we have here. Just to start, it's certainly possible that Haysie makes contributions without signing in, it's also possible that he or she made the account with a good-faith intent to participate, and without any agreement in place to support rpeh's endeavors. While allowing for these possibilities might mean that discounting a vote for meatpuppetry would rarely happen short of a confession, that's not such a bad thing. It doesn't stop individuals from concluding that someone is a meatpuppet. Like I was saying before, that's the real, organic punishment for suspected meatpuppetry. A block is disproportionate and ultimately unnecessary.<br /> <br /> ::Regardless, it's clear by what rpeh said that he thought that the basic interest this wiki has in promoting participation is important enough that in this case the mere ''suspicion'' of Haysie as a sockpuppet or an inappropriate meatpuppet was not enough to officially discount her vote. Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:18, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::{{ec}}The one counting the votes would have been Daveh, and guidelines say that a vote can be discounted if meatpuppetry is suspected. While we couldn't prove or disprove it, there was some evidence for it. I also see nothing wrong with suspicions. We could even ask Haysie herself.<br /> <br /> :::I agree that the single incident would not be a blockable offence, but the multiple incidents that took place in February and the vote are all somewhat similar. If not insults, they are rather close to them, and have been far too frequent to be simple accident. I do not know if it directly fits into the [[wikipedia:disruptive editing|disruptive editing]] category, but it seems to follow the point of ''&quot;Their edits often avoid gross breaches of civility, by refraining from personal attacks, while still interfering with civil and collaborative editing meant to improve the article.&quot;'' <br /> <br /> :::What do you mean by ''&quot;Whether we agree with that or not is not really relevant; it's enough that he had a reason and he tried to explain it in a persuasive way, at the appropriate place.&quot;''? What is the &quot;it&quot;? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 00:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Thanks for clarifying. Nevertheless, rpeh's thesis that nothing disqualified Haysie from voting remains true; Haysie had the right to vote, even if Daveh has the right to discount it. So rpeh becomes guilty of throwing up a straw man (again, not a blockable offense, just a subversive method of argument that may not have been intentional). Rpeh is abrasive with people when he thinks he's right and he's being ignored. I don't think he will deny that, or even wants to. But he's certainly not interfering with my ability to be civil or collaborate.<br /> <br /> ::::He's not swearing, he's not spamming, all of his comments, while apparently unpopular, have been related to the site and placed appropriately, and all there is against him in terms of fraud is ungrounded suspicions. That's just the simple state of affairs right now. Do you think the person I just described should be blocked? <br /> <br /> ::::For that last sentence, I meant that whether we agree with the reasoning of rpeh as I had proposed it, it's enough that he was positively contributing (as ironic as that terminology may seem). The &quot;it&quot; was his reasoning. We don't have to agree, for example, with rpeh's &quot;total disgrace&quot; comment, but in this context, I believe it's necessary to conclude that he had no basis for coming to that conclusion to hold him accountable with a block for expressing such an opinion. I believe he had some substantive, legitimate reason(s) for his opinion, poorly explained and possibly misconstrued as they may have been, so it would be wrong to silence him for uttering that opinion. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::{{ec}} Calling people sycophants and disgraces for attempts to contribute and mentions of site policy, calling someone incompetent simply because he has done more on maps, and just about calling someone's edits useless and perhaps detrimental (''&quot;doing nothing but fixing typos, over-complicating templates&quot;'') doesn't sound like comments that have been site-related and appropriately placed. I also forgot his comment about the whole nomination being a façade, which is really uncalled for, unless there's some huge underlying issues that I'm completely missing. He's free to express his opinion, but bringing strong emotions and perceived plots into play isn't the way to do it. <br /> <br /> :::::To address a point I missed earlier, I don't think that the wiki's policy on meatpuppetry should be discussed in terms of this conversation, if you've got feelings about changing it. Whether or not it's acceptable is a unique issue on its own, and I'm fairly certain it's policy (written or unwritten) to not alter policy while events regarding the policy are going on or in the middle of such an event. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:19, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I feel similar to how ThuumofReason is feeling. Anyway, I agree that in no way were there any clear personal attacks. Though I was under the impression that meat puppetry was a good reason to block, and I find it rather obviously so to be the case ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 01:28, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Meatpuppetry is a form of fraud, just like sockpuppetry, and I presume it's blockable. The rub is that sockpuppetry is sometimes hard to spot but usually easy to prove, while meatpuppetry is usually easy to spot but almost impossible to prove with any reasonable degree of certainty. It may be just a disguised form of sockpuppetry. You're essentially trying to argue ''res ipsa loquitur'', the thing speaks for itself; I say you need more to go on. How do we know Haysie doesn't participate as an anon while at school or work? How do we know the account wasn't started in good faith? How do we know that they made an agreement for Haysie to support rpeh's goals? And even assuming Haysie has a standing agreement to take certain positions and never contributes beyond that, how do we know that agreement is with rpeh? I'm not asking for proof beyond a reasonable doubt like this is a courtroom, just something that doesn't turn this into a witch hunt. So I just don't see how a block is necessary or just in these circumstances. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}Would asking Haysie be appropriate in this situation? '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:56, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :Certainly, if you feel that would be productive. For the moment, I'm just thinking about how easy it would be to frame or be framed for suspected meatpuppetry in the future. Someone who doesn't like what I'm saying could be making an account right now at the local coffeeshop, under a different IP, saying their old buddy Minor Edits told them to join the UESP. Times goes by, eventually someone will have a problem with me. Then this inactive account suddenly starts making comments in support of me, someone takes notice, and I'm blocked on the mere suspicion of meatpuppetry. It would be so ''easy''. I don't know about big conspiracies, but there are certainly ''plenty'' of individuals out there with a bone to pick with rpeh. All it takes is one crazy person, and since this is the internet, is it really all that unlikely that someone will do this eventually? And regardless of what you think of rpeh or the truth behind Haysie, do you think that other person really deserves to be framed and blocked? [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:15, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::I don't know about blocking policy on meatpuppets, just with throwing out their votes if suspected. I feel it may be productive to ask Haysie about it, as if she admits to being asked by rpeh to add a voice or to being pointed towards the discussion by him then that would prove it, whereas other answers would disprove it or stay ambiguous. Don't forget to assume good faith--without that, we'd all be seeing conspiracies, in which case we might as well say that [[User:JR|JR]] is trying to slowly remove me from patrollership by gradually pointing out [[User_talk:Velyanthe#Fun_with_Grammar:_Compound_Modifiers_.28Compound_Adjectives.29|grammar issues]].<br /> <br /> ::I don't hold much opinion on whether or not Haysie is a meatpuppet, nor do I have huge issues with rpeh based on her vote (since we can't prove it in the first place). It's everything else I've mentioned that I have issues with, but please note that my opinions aren't very strong. <br /> <br /> ::I don't think that the fact that most of rpeh's posts were from two months ago really matters either, since his attitude has been similar recently and he has been negative towards RH70 in the same manner, even after taking a break. '''[[User:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;Vely&lt;/font&gt;]]'''&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Talk&lt;/font&gt;]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|&lt;font color=&quot;maroon&quot;&gt;►Email&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 02:32, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::To be honest, I don't agree with Rpeh's block. However, since AKB just went and blocked him like that, without discussing it with other admins, also threathening to resign if his actions were considered to be wrong (as would be the case should the block be removed), there wasn't much I could do. Considering the whole drama, I didn't feel the need to make AKB look bad as well, so I tried to support him in the block (we already look bad as it is). Though I really think that the meat puppetry is a good reason to warrant a block. Since it cannot be proved, but the term exist and is a reason to block, well then someone has to take a look at the facts and decide on their own whether this is legit or not. And I believe it is not. I've put forth what I can call evidence. Perhaps we need more opinions from other admins/patrollers ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 02:50, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::That's the thing; what exactly is meatpuppetry? Just pointing a new or existing member towards a discussion is not enough to warrant blocking a person. As I said earlier, I think that's just electioneering 101. People have posted on my talk page before asking me to take a look at a particular conversation where some important matter was being decided; I don't consider that to be unjustified, and such behavior should be protected. That's just fundamentally about encouraging participation in the site, which is rarely a bad thing. For a meatpuppet, I think you need someone who joined ''and'' participated for, in practice, the sole benefit of another user's agenda pursuant to an agreement between them. That's pretty hard to prove. If Haysie would be willing to confess to this arrangement, it would rule out some other possibilities, although not the possibility of framing I mentioned.<br /> <br /> ::::Rpeh's comments in Feb. were at least borderline; I believe he acknowledged this is true. All I can do is reiterate that criticism, negativity, whatever you want to call it, is not necessarily unconstructive site participation. [[User:Minor Edits|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:medium&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Minor Edits&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Threats&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|&lt;font color=&quot;Green&quot;&gt;Evidence&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:58, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::This is basically just talking in a circle now. As of now, as far as I see it, the majority of the users who have either felt the block was justified with the reasons I've given or would be justified (maybe under different parameters, I assume) if it were for the perceived meat puppetry (which he has more or less denied, though he never explicitly denied any relation with Haysie). Says most of the remaining arguing seems to revolve around whether his actions count as personal attacks (which I and many others consider them to be), and whether certain contributions should even count at all (I consider them to be valid due to the lack of any activity on the site between them). As of now, arguing over this isn't going anywhere, and I don't see the purpose of continued discussion on this subject. Unless Haysie intends to respond (and since there are already claims that this may be an elaborate frame job, I'm not entirely sure those opposing this would count any statement as genuine, meaning this discussion would just continue even further without any progress), or rpeh wishes to provide reasons for what he intends to do if he is allowed to edit again (which is a critical part of the appeal process), then I suggest we call this done. As of now, I don't see anyone persuading anyone else with any argument imaginable. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:20, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} I apologize for prolonging this discussion. However, I started writing these comments before AKB's last post, and I think they still have some merit even if the discussion is coming to an end; perhaps they'll give a few editors some new perspectives.<br /> <br /> In brief, I think rpeh's recent edits have been disruptive, and that some action to prevent further disruptions is necessary. Therefore, a block is appropriate. I had been thinking that a less severe administrative action might also be equally effective. Paradoxically, however, rpeh's appeal request leaves me more in favor of the block than I previously had been. Without his appeal, I'd been able to give him the benefit of the doubt. But if rpeh can't provide any reasons why we should think that his edits will be any less disruptive in the future -- or can't even tell us that the block might prevent him from making constructive edits -- then I feel no need to invent such reasons on his behalf.<br /> <br /> In my opinion, rpeh's recent actions have not been appropriate. Although no single sentence of rpeh's is a red-flag, unambiguous disruption and/or personal attack, his contributions need to be evaluated as a whole, not word-by-word. Overall, he has made repeated inflammatory comments, without any intervening productive contributions to the site. Each of his comments in Robin Hood's RfA was 100% negative; there was no redeeming value in terms of constructive suggestions -- unlike every other editor with a substantive oppose vote. He has not followed up with anything to lessen the negativity of those comments. His block appeal would have been a perfect opportunity to provide some type of explanation or extend an olive branch. However, he hasn't even acknowledged that the community has concerns about those edits.<br /> <br /> I whole-heartedly belive in Assume Good Faith -- but there has to be some minimal basis for assuming good faith, and the entire circumstances have to be taken into account, not just a single out-of-context sentence. Rpeh's comments were not made in error; there is no evidence that they're being misinterpreted. He has made no effort to say that he thinks there was anything inappropriate about his edits, or that anything about those edits should have been done differently. As a result, I just can't see any way to interpret his comments as well-intentioned edits that were supposed to benefit UESP. Rather, he simply appears to be venting, presumably because he is upset about being de-admined. He is completely entitled to be upset, and it's a natural reaction, but that doesn't mean that he is entitled to act out on UESP in response. He needs to be able to put the de-admin behind him and be willing to move forward -- otherwise I don't think he's ready to return to the site and return to being a productive editor.<br /> <br /> There is no questioning that in the past rpeh has been a valuable contributor to the site. However, Rpeh is not currently behaving/contributing in a manner consistent with a valuable contributor -- including the fact that he has not been making any productive edits. We need to make decisions based upon the current situation. In my opinion, allowing him to continue editing right now is only likely to lead to more inflammatory, negative comments posted on talk pages and noticeboards. Allowing those edits to continue will cause more disruption and harm to UESP, and therefore the community is justified in trying to prevent more such edits.<br /> <br /> Rpeh has made no attempt to convince the community that lifting the block will benefit the site -- even though the [[UESPWiki:Blocking_Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Appealing Blocks]] section explicitly recommends including such information in an appeal. Rpeh doesn't even suggest that he is planning to contribute to the site. Editing UESP is not a constitutional right. It is a privilege given to editors solely because we want to allow editors to help improve the site. People who don't want to improve the site don't need edit rights. Also, talking about courts of law and judicial evidence standards is irrelevant -- we're not talking about a decision that sends someone to jail. UESP decisions arguably are more like a group of friends deciding who to invite to a party than a court of law.<br /> <br /> All of which leads me to conclude that some action needs to be taken by the community to prevent rpeh from causing more disruption. A block accomplishes that goal. One argument against the block is that no warning was given first. AKB has already rightly pointed out that admins have the discretion to block without first providing a warning. One purpose of a warning is to make sure that the editor knows the site's rules and policies -- not necessary in this case. Another is to tell the editor that his behavior has been inappropriate -- but rpeh has already been told exactly that in the whole de-admin process. That was a pretty unambiguous message that the community disapproves of his negative comments directed at other editors. Placing a bright pink official warning message on rpeh's talk page immediately after de-admining him would have been rubbing salt in open wounds. Ultimately, a warning message is given in the belief that it may be sufficient to change the editor's behavior and prevent a block -- but based on rpeh's past behavior when given warnings, and based on his current argumentative responses, I see no reason to think that he would have paid any serious attention to a warning.<br /> <br /> Also, I think three months is an appropriate duration given that in the two months since the de-admin, rpeh has shown no signs of moving past that event.<br /> <br /> A final factor here is that we are talking about an existing block. Administrative decisions are judgement calls. In this case, AKB made a good-faith, thought-out decision based on the situation at that time and the information available to him at that time. Second-guessing after the fact whether that was the single best possible course of action at that point in time isn't really helpful. The question now is whether there is a definitive reason why the original decision needs to be changed. In his block appeal, rpeh didn't provide any reasons for how UESP would benefit if the the block was lifted, and I'm not aware of any such arguments from other editors.<br /> <br /> Given AKB's above comments, I think it may simply be best to close this discussion. However, if other editors still think that there are reasons why we need to lift the block -- reasons why that would be better for UESP than leaving it in place -- then I think those editors need to provide an alternative proposal about what can be done to prevent continued disruptions. Even though I strongly feel that simply lifting the block and doing nothing is the wrong course of action, that doesn't mean that there aren't other possible compromise solutions. I think any continuation of this discussion needs to be focussed on identifying such compromises/alternatives -- on finding a consensus rather than just voting. Otherwise, I agree with AKB that it's best to call this done. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:54, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Emotions are running high ==<br /> <br /> *Everyone here has a common interest or two, and that is the glue that holds this fan-site together. We could all be friendly.<br /> <br /> *We all contribute a little and use the great resource built by everyone for our own entertainment. This wiki is a group effort.<br /> <br /> *Feelings are what drive our editors to edit and all the other actions we do. Emotions are our brains way of helping us make decisions.<br /> <br /> So please consider these three things as you argue over the finer points which must be made. This site is one of the best quality on the internet, and I wish for it to stay on top. While participating in this drama, I implore you all to think about what your choice of action means to everyone including yourselves. &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:85%;&quot;&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;background:#000;padding:4px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Lukish|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#0F0;&quot;&gt;Lukish&lt;span style=&quot;text-decoration:blink;&quot;&gt;&amp;#95;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; [[User talk:Lukish|Tlk]] [[Special:Contributions/Lukish|Cnt]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:06, 23 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protection Template ==<br /> <br /> To make Admins' lives easier, I've updated the {{tl|Protection}} template to work almost identically to how page protection actually works. The template is mostly backwards compatible with how you're used to doing things, but it's no longer necessary to specify &quot;move&quot; as the second parameter. The move protection level is now assumed to be identical to the edit protection level. Apart from that, the biggest difference is how you specify pages that are ''only'' move-protected, which is now: {{tlx|Protection|move{{=}}full}}. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:09, 24 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection Request ==<br /> <br /> Not 100% where to request protection so, can I request semi-protection status for [[Skyrim:No Stone Unturned]]. It is not heavily edited, but there is very little being added to the page by any of the edits, it's nearly as good as can be, and it's a waste of time to keep undoing the semi-useless/non-specific information that keeps being added. [[User:The Silencer|The Silencer has spoken]]&lt;sup&gt;&lt;small&gt;[[User talk:The Silencer|Talk]]&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;<br /> : Hey Silencer! Sorry, but even if the page appears as “good as it gets” it still contains a vn-tag, a poorly formatted bugs section (filled with the forbidden words ‘sometimes’, ‘for some players’ and ‘may’), so it needs more work. Besides, we rarely semi-protect articles based on heavy traffic, unless it’s repeated vandalism or heavy edit warring. Unless some of the other administrators disagree, I’d recommend taking a deep breath and just keep looking after the page and make sure it's up to standards. All the best, --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 09:54, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MediaWiki Upgrade to 1.19 ==<br /> <br /> Just an FYI that I'm in the process of upgrading the wiki to v1.19 of MediaWiki. Since we're running v1.14 this is a relatively involved process due to a number of custom changes we've made to the MediaWiki code as well as having to upgrade all the extensions, some of which are no longer needed since their functionality is now built into v1.19. There should be no downtime involved if everything goes well but I do expect there to be minor issues after the upgrade which will be dealt with as they appear.<br /> <br /> If there are any other MediaWiki related feature or extension requests just let me know as it would be easier to do everything at once. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 13:01, 3 May 2012 (UTC)<br /> :That's nice. I recall viewing [http://uespwatch.blogspot.com/2012/03/yes-i-know.html a recent blog post] that suggested a upgrade. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 17:55, 3 May 2012 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&diff=944115 2012-05-02T13:26:40Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* TESWiki */ new section</p> <hr /> <div>{{DISPLAYTITLE:user talk:rpeh}}<br /> {| style=&quot;width: 100%; background: #f0f0ff; border: solid 5px #666699; box-shadow: 10px 10px 10px #888888&quot; cellpadding=0 cellspacing=0<br /> |-valign=&quot;top&quot;<br /> | width=&quot;33%&quot; | __TOC__<br /> |<br /> This is the talk page for [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]. Please feel free to leave me a message by clicking the &quot;+&quot; button at the top of the page, the &quot;Add new section&quot; link at the bottom of the page, or by clicking &lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new here]&lt;/span&gt;.<br /> <br /> Please note. If you leave me a message here, I will reply here. If I leave you a message on your talk page, you should reply there - I will be watching it for a response.<br /> |<br /> {|class=&quot;wikitable compress&quot; style=&quot;margin: 0; margin-left: 2em&quot;<br /> !colspan=6|Archive<br /> |-<br /> |colspan=6 style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |[[User:Rpeh/Cookies|Cookies]] : [[User_talk:Rpeh/Warnings|Warnings]]<br /> |-<br /> !'07||'08||'09||'10||'11||'12<br /> |-<br /> |Jan<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200801|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200901|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201001|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201101|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201201|Jan]]<br /> |-<br /> |Feb<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200802|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200902|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201002|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201102|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201202|Feb]]<br /> |-<br /> |Mar<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200803|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200903|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201003|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201103|Mar]]<br /> |Mar<br /> |-<br /> |Apr<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200804|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200904|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201004|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201104|Apr]]<br /> |Apr<br /> |-<br /> |May<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200805|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200905|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201005|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201105|May]]<br /> |May<br /> |-<br /> |Jun<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200806|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200906|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201006|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201106|Jun]]<br /> |Jun<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200707|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200807|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200907|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201007|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201107|Jul]]<br /> |Jul<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200708|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200808|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200908|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201008|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201108|Aug]]<br /> |Aug<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200709|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200809|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201009|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201109|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200710|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200810|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201010|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201110|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200711|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200811|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200911|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201111|Nov]]<br /> |Nov<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200712|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200812|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200912|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201012|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201112|Dec]]<br /> |Dec<br /> |}<br /> |}<br /> &lt;p&gt;&amp;nbsp;&lt;/p&gt;<br /> &lt;div style=&quot;background: #f0f0ff; border: solid 5px #666699; box-shadow: 10px 10px 10px #888888; padding: 1em&quot;&gt;<br /> <br /> == Short Description for Marog ==<br /> <br /> Rpeh,<br /> Marog has a fairly content-full article on its own page, but the &quot;places&quot; page for Tamriel Rebuilt (here: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Tes3Mod:Tamriel_Rebuilt/Places ) still lacks a tagline description for it. I know I've tried editing those before but they're made by some very complicated process instead of just editing the text there. Could you write a brief description for it so the Places article can be updated to reflect that there's info on the Marog page? Right now it looks like the link to the Marog article is going to be a stub just like the other towns that lack a description. Thanks! [[User:Zhukant|Zhukant]] 00:56, 18 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Added a description. What you do is edit the place's article. Right at the top you'll find something that looks like this:<br /> &lt;nowiki&gt;{&lt;/nowiki&gt;{Morrowind Town Table&lt;br&gt;<br /> | Town=Baldrahn&lt;br&gt;<br /> | Alignment={{TR3|House Telvanni}}&lt;br&gt;<br /> | Region=Boethian Mountains&lt;br&gt;<br /> | Almsivi=*{{TR3|Ranyon-ruhn}}&lt;br&gt;<br /> | Divine=*{{TR3|Helnim}}&lt;br&gt;<br /> &lt;font color=green&gt;| Description=A tiny [[Morrowind:muck|muck]] farming community just south of {{TR3|Llothanis}}.&lt;/font&gt;&lt;br&gt;<br /> }&lt;nowiki&gt;}&lt;/nowiki&gt;<br /> <br /> :The green part is where the description goes. For now I just put &quot;A small Telvanni town, built into the cliff face opposite the Imperial city of {{TR3|Helnim}}&quot;. Hope this helps! • &lt;font color=&quot;#4faf4f&quot;&gt;[[User:Jak Atackka|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:1.0&quot; title=&quot;Jak Atackka&quot;&gt;&lt;font face=&quot;DragonscriptRegular&quot; size=&quot;3&quot;&gt;JA&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;black&quot;&gt;[[User talk:Jak Atackka|Talk]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 18 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == For what it's worth... ==<br /> <br /> I think you should still be an admin. Whatever anybody else says, you're a great contributor to the site, and I don't think your personal conflicts on other sites should be grounds for punishment on this one. I just wanted you to know that. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 22:30, 27 March 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Thank you. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::Seconded - for as long as I've been on this wiki there was never a day I didn't see you at least somewhere in the Recent Changes. The wiki without you seems a bit... eerie. Also thanks for standing up for UESP. Just keep your cool and don't let them get to you, they're not worth it. -- [[User:Kertaw48|kertaw48]] 19:19, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Thank you too. Alas, it seems other opinions rule at the moment. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Imperial City image ==<br /> <br /> I wonder how you captured the image of the Imperial City with all parts loaded. I'm trying to replace what you captured, with higher resolution and highest settings, but whatever part I am in, all the city's parts will not load simultaneously. What did you do to load all parts? Did you use any console commands? [[User:SFK363|SFK363]] 19:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Rpeh has been inactive for several months now, according to the [[UESPWiki:Featured_Images/Past_Nominations/Archive_1#OB-place-Imperial_City.jpg|Featured Image Nomination]], he used [http://tes.nexusmods.com/downloads/file.php?id=20053 this mod] to do it. [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:26, 15 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Yup, that's the mod to use for this kind of thing. Be warned, though, that it can kill your machine if you over-do the detail settings! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:08, 18 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Blocked ==<br /> <br /> {{Blocked|1=This account has been '''[[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|blocked]]''' from editing UESPWiki for several personal attacks against other users of the site and multiple disruptions to the site. If you wish to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing Blocks|appeal the block]], you may make your request on your talk page, which you can still edit even while being blocked. —[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:08, 21 April 2012 (UTC)}}<br /> <br /> : Please specify the alleged &quot;personal attacks&quot; and &quot;multiple disruptions&quot;, and please highlight the warnings given about them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:46, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I would first like to start off by saying that no formal warning has been given about this. However, as UESP [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] states: ''&quot;Although this three-step process [Warn, Temporary Block, Permanent Block] is the normal procedure, administrators have the authority to bypass one or more steps at their discretion.&quot;'' The policy page goes onto include personal attacks as a reason to not just bypass a warning, but can be grounds for an immediate permanent block. I made note to remove any mention of a warning from this block due to this. <br /> <br /> ::As for your request for examples, you have [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:Skyrim_Map_Design&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=886821 claimed that Daveh is sycophant and incompetent], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=889261 left a sarcastic reply to a user during a previous request to have you blocked], [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=934992 claimed that RH70 was sucking up to other users] (according to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_personal_attacks#What_is_considered_to_be_a_personal_attack.3F Wikipedia Policy], accusing a user of a certain kind of behavior without evidence to back it up is considered a personal attack), and you were disruptive when a user's eligibility in a discussion was called into question due to perceived signs of meat puppetry [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935811 here] and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935902 here]. <br /> <br /> ::I apologize that I don't have time to go into detail with anything but I'm rather busy IRL at the moment. I may be disposed to reply swiftly to any other message, but I will try to get back to you. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:53, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Quite simply, none of those are personal attacks. At a pinch, the comment to Daveh was on the line, but it took place over two months ago so handing out a three month block now is a clear violation of natural justice. As for my comments on RH, Krusty had already provided the evidence. I was simply adding my voice in support. No justification for this block, so please undo ASAP. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 21 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I do have to add that, and I quote: &quot;A pattern of hostility reduces the likelihood of the community assuming good faith, and can be considered [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing disruptive editing].&quot; Considering your inactivity on the site, it is likely these posts were meant to harm the wiki.<br /> <br /> ::::If that doesn't convince you this block was justified, I'll add [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=935490 this link], a vote which is suspected to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry meat puppetry]. Since meat puppetry is as good as impossible to prove, it is up to an administrator to act as a judge. Considering the user in question has made a total of only 4 [[Special:Contributions/Haysie|contributions]], of which 2 are edits to their userpage, and the other 2 being the vote on the rfa, it is highly unlikely this person has sufficient knowledge to cast an actual vote. While it is not impossible for the user to have observed the wiki, the lack of previous votes since they subscribed leads one to believe they also lack the interest to vote. If you check their [[User:Haysie|userpage]], you can read the following line: ''&quot;I am a newbie to the Elder Scrolls world - having been introduced by Rob, one of the admins on this very portal.&quot;'' At the time this addition was made, you, '''Robert''', were an admin. This should provide enough evidence of you two being friends, which makes their vote (in which your argument was simply repeated) a mere &quot;back-up&quot; from a friend, which is prohibited ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 18:54, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I'm quite honestly astonished by the hypocrisy taking place on this site at the moment. I was de-adminned because I committed &quot;censorship&quot; by removing a totally unproductive discussion from the site. Now I'm blocked for standing up for my right to comment on an RfA and a user's right to cast a vote? Seriously???<br /> ::::: The entire premise behind this block is that nobody making the active users list deserves a right to vote. That is, quite simply, wrong. The reasons behind ''my'' block then move on to what ''another user'' has said on their user page! Seriously, people! Try putting forward this kind of &quot;evidence&quot; in a real court and see how far you get!<br /> ::::: I have made ''no'' personal attacks and committed ''no'' other blockable offence, yet was banned without warning. An unblock is the least that needs to be done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Per the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Appealing_Blocks|Blocking Policy]], all users are entitled to an appeal on the AN. Is this to be considered and appeal, and shall I move this for you, Rpeh? [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:33, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I was wondering how long it would take. Yes, please. There's absolutely no justification for this block. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::OK, I'll do it. [[User:Eric Snowmane|&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:20px;font-family:daedric,oblivion,SMMacro&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;DodgerBlue&quot;&gt;ES&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Question?&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:EmailUser/Eric Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Email&lt;/font&gt;]]•[[Special:Contributions/Eric_Snowmane|&lt;font color=&quot;MediumBlue&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> :::That is why the vote wasn't removed ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 20:03, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> ::::And yet I was blocked for it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:06, 22 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Oblivion Alchemy ==<br /> <br /> Is the Alchemy Effects template screwed up? Most of the Oblivion's individual Effects pages either include Morrowind ingredients, or list no ingredients at all. [[Special:Contributions/76.185.41.201|76.185.41.201]] 05:19, 26 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :You're right. I'm looking into it now. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:27, 26 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::The problem has now been fixed, though it may take some time before the full, correct lists are displayed. Thanks for letting us know! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:39, 26 April 2012 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == TESWiki ==<br /> <br /> I just learned that you were desysopped. I'm sorry for what happened at TESWiki. They shouldn't be using UESP's images without attribution. A photograph belongs to the photographer in just about any country. It isn't as if the photographs contain code for the game. I don't really use or visit Wikia much any more due to all of Wikia's changes. Wikia and TESWiki are pretty alien to me now. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 13:26, 2 May 2012 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Michaeldsuarez/monobook.js&diff=944109 2012-05-02T12:57:43Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: Nope.</p> <hr /> <div></div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=657332 2011-04-15T03:47:13Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]]<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> {{Archive Table|class=compress|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|Page Archives|<br /> |Archive 1||February 2005 – June 2006<br /> |Archive 2||June 2006 – August 2006<br /> |Archive 3||September 2006 – June 2007<br /> |Archive 4||June 2007 – July 2007<br /> |Archive 5||August 2007 – October 2007<br /> |Archive 6||October 2007 – November 2007<br /> |Archive 7||December 2007 – January 2008<br /> |Archive 8||January 2008 – February 2008<br /> |Archive 9||February 2008 – August 2008<br /> |Archive 10||September 2008 – October 2008<br /> |Archive 11||November 2008 – December 2008<br /> |Archive 12||December 2008 – March 2009<br /> |Archive 13||April 2009 – December 2009<br /> |Archive 14||January 2010 – May 2010<br /> |Archive 15||June 2010<br /> |Archive 16||June 2010 - October 2010<br /> |Archive 17||November 2010 - December 2010<br /> |!|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfA|Aristeo's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jun. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Nephele/RfA|Nephele's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 13, 2006''<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfB|Aristeo's Request for Bureaucrat|''Withdrawn by Aristeo Nov. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Ratwar/RfA|Ratwar's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jan. 31, 2007''<br /> |User:TheRealLurlock/RfA|TheRealLurlock's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Feb. 23, 2007''<br /> |User:Rpeh/RfA|Rpeh's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Oct. 1, 2007''<br /> |UESPWiki:Archive/AN Request for Server Access|Nephele's Request for Server Access|''Approved Jan. 4, 2008''<br /> |User:Eshe/RfA|Eshe's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Mar. 31, 2008''<br /> |User:GuildKnight/RfA|GuildKnight's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Nov. 11, 2008''<br /> |User:Timenn/RfA|Timenn's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 7, 2009''<br /> |User:Krusty/RfA|Krusty's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved May 3, 2010''<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == Upcoming Hardware Changes ==<br /> <br /> This post is to make everyone aware of a number of significant changes coming up on the hardware side of the site. I've been working with iWeb to provide a number of upgrades at the same time that are within our budget in a manner than permits zero downtime.<br /> <br /> Currently these hardware changes include:<br /> <br /> :* '''Private Rack --''' Moving our six servers to a private rack with two spaces to spare for future servers. The two main reasons for this are bandwidth consolidation and performance. Currently, our main Internet facing servers (squid1 and files1) have a monthly bandwidth of 1500GB. While this sounds like a lot we're very close to exceeding this amount in the past few months. Exceeding the monthly cap can be very expensive and we've had monthly bills of several hundred dollars in past years. By moving to a private rack we now get 10000GB/month which does not include any internal traffic between the servers. There should also be a small amount of performance improvement by moving to a private rack as all internal server traffic would use 1000Mbps compared to the mixed 10/100Mbps now in addition to the actual physical distance between servers (100s of ft down to several). The external connection to the Internet is also increased to 100Mbps for all servers. I'm not sure exactly how much performance increase to expect, it may not even be noticeable at the current traffic levels but it will definitely help when the traffic increases in a few months due to Skyrim.<br /> :* '''RAID --''' Add RAID1 to the database and files server for redundancy purposes. This will significantly reduce the amount of downtime if/when we see another hard drive failure on those servers. There isn't enough benefit compared to the cost t:o similarly add it to the remaining content and squid servers. The content servers are already mirrored/load balanced and if the squid goes down there are simple ways to temporarily redirect traffic to one of the content servers.<br /> :* '''Hard Drive for Backup --''' Increase the hard drive size of content3 for backup purposes. This will just make it easier to setup rotating backups in one place without having to juggle free disk space.<br /> :* '''CPU/RAM --''' Upgrade all servers to the same CPU and RAM (i3 Dual Core 2.93 GHz and 4GB). More of both can always be used in some manner and it makes load balancing the content servers much easier.<br /> :* '''Site Cost --''' The monthly cost of the site's servers will increase from the current 400$/month to over 700$/month and I'll be pre-purchasing all servers for 24 months to get a discount. Fortunately, the ad revenue has been very good this past year so we shouldn't have any problem supporting it for the next few years at least.<br /> :* '''Future Thoughts --''' Hardware wise this setup should be good for a significant increase in traffic. A conservative guess would say at least 5x the current traffic which is unlikely to occur in the near future. Given the trends of past ES title releases I would expect a traffic peak of about 2x at Skyrim's release at the end of the year compared to the current traffic (so in the order of 2 million page views/day). We still have two free spaces in the private stack and more servers outside the stack can always be obtained as needed.<br /> <br /> The plan is to get six completely new servers installed in the private rack which will let me setup and switch over each server one by one with minimal down time. I'm aiming for zero downtime and only a limited amount of time when the site is set to read-only (partially or fully) so the change to the new servers should be transparent to most visitors. The process of switching over likely won't begin for a few weeks and I'll post something here whenever I plan on setting something to read-only. I have an arbitrary amount of time to keep the old servers so I always have the option to switch back to the original server should issues pop up.<br /> <br /> If anyone has any requests for additional hardware or features just let me know in the next few days since the deal with iWeb hasn't been finalized yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:19, 28 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Sounds brilliant! The private rack should make a ''big'' difference - anybody who doesn't know our current setup should look at the [[UESPWiki:Servers|Servers]] page and imagine how much data is zipping around between the different boxes. I imagine the RAM upgrade will make a big difference too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> '''Update -- 7 Feb 2011:''' I finalized the deal with iWeb last week and received the servers on Friday. I'll be setting up the servers this week and beginning to switch them over in roughly the following order:<br /> :* files1 -- Best to do this first as it makes setting up the new content servers easier. There will be a short window of time where uploads will be disabled.<br /> :* content3 -- Nothing is currently relying on this host so it can be switched over easily.<br /> :* content1/2 -- These are similarly easy to switch by just updating the Squid cache to point to the new hosts. <br /> :* squid1 -- Once setup it is a simple matter of changing the DNS entry for ''www.uesp.net'' and letting the change propagate naturally over the next 24 hours.<br /> :* db1 -- The trickiest one that will require a short window with the wiki/forum set to read only when the switch is made.<br /> I'll post here when each server switch is occurring and any issues that appear can be posted here as well. I'll make a server switch every couple of days to permit any issues to reveal themselves and make it easier to diagnose their source. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Issue Note: 9 Feb 2011 -- ''' In case anyone just noticed some site issues (images/skins not loading, sessions invalid, etc...) that was just me playing around with NFS on the new servers and files1 which caused the NFS shares on content1/2/3 to become invalid. All should be well now. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Files1 Update: 14 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on beginning the switch for files1 to the new hardware sometime tonight if everything goes well. I'll lock Wiki uploads for a short period but that should be the only noticeable effect. I'll update here as it goes and if anyone notices any issues you can record them here as well. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 22:35, 14 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Wiki uploads disabled now. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 23:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Re-enabled uploads. There is an issue with content1/2 accessing the lockd server on newfiles1 I have to figure out first. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Figured out the issue and disabled Wiki uploads again. PHP session files on content1/2 are running from newfiles1. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Switched shares on content1/2 to newfiles1. Switched directories on files1 to mounts from newfiles1. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Changed DNS entries for maps/skins/images/files to point to the newfiles1 server. Propagation will take ~24 hours to fully switch. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Re-enabled Wiki uploads and did a quick test. Everything seems to be in order but let me know if you see anything out of the ordinary. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: It's worth saying that I've been hitting the file upload page pretty hard over the past couple of days and there haven't been any problems. I think I'd have noticed. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:47, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Content2 Update: 17 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on switching over content2 to the new server tonight. This will be a very simple procedure which just requires squid1 to be restarted so there should be no site interruption besides a few seconds of downtime. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 19:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Content2 switched over. I noted a few minor issues in the error log which may be new or only just visible now that I'll be watching. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Content1 Update: 19 Feb 2011 --''' Content1 was just switched to the new server. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 15:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Squid1 Update: 21 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on switching to the new squid1 server sometime today. Barring any issue there should be no service interruption. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 16:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :DNS entries for www.uesp.net changed to point to the new squid1 server. It will slowly begin to take over all requests in the next day or two. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Db1 Update: 23 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on switching db1 tonight sometime if everything works out. This will require the Wiki and forums to be put into read only mode for a while (up to an hour at most) while the switch is made. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:07, 23 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Locking Wiki/forums shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:29, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Test edit from content3. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Test edit from content2. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Test edit from content1. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Wiki/forums re-enabled. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Changed database host address for all secondary services (maps, EQWiki, Blog, DaveWiki). Shut down old db1 and tested all sites to make sure they are still working. Barring any issues we should be good. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:02, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Summary: 28 Feb 2011 --''' All servers have been successfully switched over and appear to be running fine so I canceled the old servers yesterday. There is still a lot of work left on the new servers to setup monitoring, backups, documentation, and other minor services. On a slightly related note the site had its highest daily traffic ever this weekend at around 950k Wiki page views (or around 8 million files) each day on Saturday and Sunday beating the previous record by a decent 10%. Despite the high traffic volume the new servers didn't appear to notice it which means we should be good for the upcoming traffic spike for Skyrim. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == vandal IP ==<br /> <br /> this guy keeps vandalizing skill pages: 98.15.210.73 {{unsigned|Pwnageincarnate|01:34, 4 February 2011}} <br /> : Only two vandal edits and the fact that he/she stopped right after being warned does not really warrant any further actions. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 05:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vandal ==<br /> <br /> Using a second account. [[User talk:XinXXX]]. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:31, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :And another [[User talk:XinXXXX]]. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: All done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 05:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vandal ==<br /> <br /> Please take care of this IP 24.109.215.3. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:06, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Done. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 04:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::Your welcome, and thank you, I feared I'd have to hit F5 all night to keep a watch on recent changes. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Precautionary Protection ==<br /> <br /> Just as a precaution, can an Admin please semi-protect [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Block Notifications]]. It was vandalized once very early on, and really, nobody but Blockers and Admins should normally have any reason to edit it anyway. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Namespaces in Search ==<br /> <br /> Please could an admin add the missing namespaces to [[MediaWiki:Uesppowersearchtable|this page]] so they show up on the search options. It looks like we're missing Skyrim, Dawnstar, Stormhold and OBMobile. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Hmm, this is odd. I can only choose to &quot;create&quot; a new page, with no &quot;edit&quot; options. Maybe Daveh is the only one allowed to do this? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :: No, it's just that the page is using the default value at the moment so a new page needs to be created to override it. See Nephele's instructions [[UESPWiki:UespCustomCode#Updates|here]]. You'll probably need to copy/paste the default onto the new page, but if the worst comes to the worst you can always just speedy-delete the page anyway. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::: Okay, done. One thing that puzzles me is that Skyrim, Stormhold and Dawnstar is not ticked by default when I do a search. Did I miss anything? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :::: Thanks, that's perfect! The namespaces ticked by default are set in your [[Special:Preferences|preferences]], on the Search tab. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 11:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Oh yes, the Preferences - figured it out right after hitting &quot;save&quot;. Still, everything seems to be fine now and it is refreshing to be able to search for &quot;Eustacia&quot; and get some results. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spammer ==<br /> <br /> [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:First_Time_Players&amp;curid=9394&amp;diff=642576&amp;oldid=639185 This edit] is pure spam so should get an infinite block. It doesn't look like we have any admins around at the moment, but it one should pass by, please could he or she do the honours? Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == And another spammer ==<br /> <br /> The IP is 109.230.251.252, the page it created was a sandbox for a talk page of an inactive editor. I blanked it and added a speedy template but the IP still needs to be taken care of. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:52, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Edit: and [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] already took care of it, thanks for the swift response! --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Blocker Rights ==<br /> <br /> I wasn't sure where exactly to put this, so I figure here would be alright. I know that I was just recently made a Patroller, but I would like to ask again for more rights; this time as a Blocker. There have been several times where I have been working against vandals while no admin is online. I feel that in these times, a short block would have been very successful in warning the vandal, but nobody was around to do so. I cannot find much information on Blockers, but I have seen rpeh do so, and I think I could handle the responsibility. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Vandal IP==<br /> In relation to my above statement, an IP has been acting out a bit. [[User talk:72.39.123.186]] [[Special:Contributions/72.39.123.186]]. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I think this is a simple misunderstanding, and the IP got a little hostile as a result of that. I've tried to explain the situation on their [[User talk:72.39.123.186|talk page]]. We'll see what happens. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Clearly this has moved beyond the level of a &quot;simple misunderstanding&quot;. Given what's been happening on the IPs talk page, can I ask an Admin to give him a cool-off block including his talk page? So far, he's confined himself to that page, so either rpeh or I blocking him would be ineffective. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Just woke up, so I'll be watching. Regardless, is it true you guys can't use your three-hour block rights to block a user from editing his talk page? I didn't know that. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Yes, that was one of the stipulations of being a Blocker was that we wouldn't have that right, so they would always be able to appeal before a possible full block. Oh and technically we have 4 hour block rights, it's just that with 3 being in the drop-down, that's usually sufficient and easier to select. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Hmm, that is ridiculous; these days where GK is busy with things much more important than this site (and I'm down with a less important cold, sleeping 12 hours a night), we need you guys to be able to do what we do. Also, I'm pretty sure nobody but you and rpeh will get Blockuser rights anytime soon, and why should one of you start abusing your blocker rights all of a sudden? If nobody objects, I'll contact Daveh so you can block users from editing their talk pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 09:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm fine with it either way. I mean, it's nice to be able to give a full cool-down when needed, but at the same time, there's only so much harm a user can do (besides a little cluttering of RC) when limited to their own talk page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: E-mail to Daveh sent. It might be a minor thing, but it doesn't make sense to give editors a 4-hour &quot;cool-down&quot;-block and at the same time invite them to freak out on their talk page. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection ==<br /> <br /> &lt;s&gt;To discourage a repeat of the incident mentioned in the previous section, could an admin please semi-protect [[Template:OB Purchased Spell Notes]]. I've checked the other [[:Category:Notes Templates|Notes Templates]], and they should all be fine.&lt;/s&gt; ''(No longer necessary due to changes in template.)'' &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Can I go further here? We've had huge changes in templates over the past 12-18 months, and a lot of things have changed. There are several templates that are used on literally hundreds or thousands of pages that are not currently protected. [[Special:MostLinkedTemplates|This]] is the page to visit for details, and as I said some time back when a couple of ignorant people were accusing me of vandalising the site, that page is a great was of advertising the pages that will cause the most damage.<br /> <br /> :The &quot;User&quot; templates on that list don't matter so much, but there are templates like {{tl|Autolink}} and {{tl|Infobox Style}} that are used on over a thousand pages that currently have no protection. Templates like {{tl|NPC Summary/Tamriel Rebuilt Other}} only appear at #64, but would seriously screw up the site if edited badly.<br /> <br /> :Going even further, some templates, like {{tl|!}}, {{tl|!!}} and {{tl|!-}}, should never be edited at all. I remember saying that 18 months ago, too. They could be fully protected to stop anybody screwing with them.<br /> <br /> :In general, there are only a few of the top 50 templates that shouldn't be at least SPed. Many of the next 50 should also get protected. Then there are examples like the Notes Templates that RH brought up, for which there are other reasons for protection. I don't like protecting pages in general, but in cases like this I think there's good reason to do it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 04:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Okay, I'll get started on the top 50 now. Somebody feel free to add the relevant padlocks. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 17:54, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Ah well, I took the top 100. So far so good. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, all done with the requests on this page; if anything else needs some protection, hit me on my talk page. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:45, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Another spammer ==<br /> <br /> IP number 178.150.200.230, it has added two spam messages now to what seems to be a porn site. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Blocked for 3 hours. I imagine an admin will be along shortly to make it permanent. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks Rpeh, lets hope this one won't slip through the cracks again. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 17:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Skyrim Semi Protection ==<br /> <br /> Based on [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Skyrim&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=645127 this recent edit], the semi protection for [[Skyrim:Skyrim]] is failing or not implemented correctly. --[[User:Wizy|Wizy]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:7pt;&quot;&gt;([[User_Talk:Wizy|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wizy|Contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 03:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : I gave it another 6 months; the original semi-protection only lasted a month (obviously made before we expanded it), so thanks for noticing. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Worshiper to Worshipper ==<br /> <br /> Sorry if I'm a bit late bringing this topic up. rpeh [[User_talk:Legoless#Spelling|said]] that using a bot to fix the spellings could be problematic as there's no way to distinguish an in-game source. I'd be willing to take on the project myself, but a solution to the problem of clogging up the recent changes page needs to be made. Thoughts? [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 01:42, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Do it late at night? If I remember correctly bots are only supposed to be ran in the dead of night to avoid them clogging up the recent changes when people are actually editing, since this is a bot-like task I believe the same rules should apply. As this [[UESPWiki:bots|page]] says ''&quot;The bot will not be run during periods with heavy server traffic (Defined as noon-9pm PDT weekends and 3pm-9pm PDT weekdays).&quot;''. This option would avoid the worst clogging of recent changes in my opinion. Anyone else agree with me? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thing is, I'm GMT. I'd probably have to do it early in the morning so as to disturb the least amount of people. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 02:09, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: As long as you are making useful edits, clogging up the RC is no problem at all. Just go ahead whenever you feel like it - and thanks! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I'm almost finished, but for the Daggerfall Daedric quest articles. They seems to consistently use the single 'p' spelling, even in dialogue quotes where the &quot;worshiper's name&quot; is supposed to be inserted. I haven't played Daggerfall expensively, so does anyone know if the worshippers are spelling like that in-game? If so I think I might leave those pages alone. Or, it might stem from the fact that all the articles seem to be written by the same group of people (the Daggerfall masters, I assume), who probably use the same spelling throughout. Does anyone know for sure? [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 00:29, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I just searched through all the DF files and came up with these occurrences of the double p version:<br /> :::::* ''&quot;They say _qgfriend_ is a very pleasant and charming =qgfriend_, who is also a daedra-worshipper.ÿ_qgfriend_ is rumored to be Peryite's slave in %reg. Peryite is the Daedra of Pestilence and Plague.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;Sanguine is an enemy none should have. You won't regret this, %pcf, provided you fulfill your end of our agreement. This sanctimonius monk is not harmless; =monster_ is %g3 name and %g burned my lovely worshippers to crisps.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;The Dark Brotherhood is a very mysterious organization, often hired as assassins by the more pragmatic rulers. They have a reputation as maniacs and daedra worshippers, but they must be doing something right. They've been around for thousands of years.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;That's the temple devoted to Arkay, the God of Birth and Death.ÿThe Order of Arkay is a temple for worshippers of the God of the Cycle of Birth and Death. Any temple dedicated to Zenithar, the God of Work and Commerce, is called a Resolution of Zenithar or a Resolution of Zen.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;Even those people without children of age go to pray for the wisdom and benevolence of the clergy. Riglametha is celebrated on the twelfth of Hearth Fire every year in Lainlyn as a celebration of Lainlyns many blessings. Pageants are held on such themes as the Ghraewaj, when the daedra worshippers in Lainlyn were changed to harpies for their blasphemy.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;On the 8th of Suns Dusk, the Bretons of Glenumbra Moors hold the Moon Festival, a joyous holiday in honor of Secunda, goddess of the moon. Although the goddess has no active worshippers, the traditional celebration has continued through the ages as a time of feasting and merriment.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;Worshippers know better than to expect this philanthropy, but they arrive in a macabre procession with the recently deceased nevertheless. when ale flows free in all the taverns in all the cities of Tamriel.ÿthe biggest party of the year!ÿa huge drunken orgy ....&quot;''<br /> :::::* There are also &quot;pp&quot;s in [[Lore:Ghraewaj|Ghraewaj]], [[Lore:The Brothers of Darkness|The Brothers of Darkness]], [[Lore:An Overview of Gods And Worship|An Overview of Gods And Worship]], [[Lore:Ius, Animal God|Ius, Animal God]], [[Lore:Invocation of Azura|Invocation of Azura]], and [[Lore:King Edward, Part XII|King Edward, Part XII]] (&amp;times;11).<br /> :::::I think you're safe changing anything else. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:36, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{outdent}} I think I'm finished. I haven't changed any of the unofficial mod articles, and I've added sic tags to any in-game source using the single 'P' spelling that I've come across. One thing that's puzzling me is the ''Overview of Gods and Worship'' book. It seems to use both spellings, so I don't know if that's an error from Bethesda or from an editor. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 11:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Great work! I just checked that book and both spellings are definitely used. Typical - we worry about consistency and Beth can't be consistent even in the same book! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:41, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Yeah. Good job. I searched the CS for the one-p spellings and put in a couple sic tags last night. The ''Overview of Gods and Worship'' one is a funny one, having both spellings. I figure it is either a misspelling by the game writers, or a roleplay indicator that spelling was not important at the time the book was written. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 15:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Monobook.js ==<br /> <br /> For some reason, I can't patrol [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Gez/monobook.js&amp;curid=69232&amp;diff=645618&amp;oldid=419153&amp;rcid=670010 this edit], which is marked as unpatrolled on the recent changes page. According to the patrol log it wasn't already patrolled. So, is this normal? --[[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It's a bit of an oddity with the patrol code. Only admins can patrol edits to users' Javascript pages. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Same with me when I was trying to patrol some edits at Emoboy64's monobook page. Nothing abnormal I suppose. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 14:02, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == SKYRIM! ==<br /> <br /> Hi guys youve semi locked the skyrim page however from the screenshots given on http://www.elderscrolls.com/skyrim/media/ a lot of information can be gathered like the 7 schools of magic (enchanting is BACK!) ect, some should update the page {{unsigned|Calcal|26 February 2011}}<br /> <br /> ===New Articles===<br /> <br /> Please could an admin create the following (that I'm not going to link in case the answer is &quot;no&quot; in order not to create wanted links):<br /> * Skyrim:Development Team<br /> * Skyrim:Concept Art<br /> * One that I don't have a title for but would be something like &quot;Pre-Release Content&quot; for in-game pictures and video.<br /> I believe I have enough content for all three (the last two are pretty easy!). If you'd prefer I sandbox first and let you move, please let me know.<br /> <br /> At the moment, I'd vote against unprotecting the whole namespace. The guesswork already taking place on pages like [[Oblivion:Esbern]] would suggest that a page containing &quot;He may of been in knight of teh nine&quot; would appear fairly quickly. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:01, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Your wish is my command. Two minutes... --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:22, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spammer ==<br /> <br /> [[User talk:FrikaNons]] is a spammer --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 18:19, 28 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Got it. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vandal ==<br /> <br /> This [[Special:Contributions/77.97.57.76|Anon]] has now repeatedly vandalized the [[Oblivion:Vampirism|Oblivion Vampirisim]] page even after being I warned it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:13, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Done. Do me a favor, though - instead of the trendy edit summary &quot;rv&quot;, please state the problem instead - much easier to spot. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::What do you mean, I don't think I have ever used &quot;rv&quot; as an edit summary? [[User:DKong27|DKong27]] undid the most recent one, with rv I might add. Would you prefer me to specify the specific form of vandalism for now on (which would be nonsense in this case correct?) or was this aimed at DKong? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::: Nothing personal; I'm aware who reverted the last edit, but it is merely a request for everyone, so we can avoid clogging up this page with reminders. Don't get me wrong, it is very useful when these things are mentioned (especially when there are no admins around), but more precise edit summaries would be helpful. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:29, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::::Ah, okay then I'll try to be more precise with my edit summaries for now on. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Captcha Whitelist ==<br /> <br /> A link to the forums has just been added to the Welcome message template following [[UESPWiki_talk:Messages/Welcome#New_addition_to_welcome_message?|this]] discussion, but now using the template requires non-patrollers to pass a captcha check, which is pretty annoying.<br /> <br /> Please would an admin add:<br /> &lt;pre&gt;<br /> forums\.uesp\.net<br /> &lt;/pre&gt;<br /> to [[MediaWiki:Captcha-addurl-whitelist|this]] list? I don't see any reason why links to our own forums should be restricted after all. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:45, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Me neither. Try now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 15:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::*If you prefer to discuss Elder Scrolls related topics with other users, without the expectations of a wiki to worry about, see our [http://forums.uesp.net/ Forums].<br /> ::Testing it here. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:52, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::Edit: Didn't need to do a captcha test so I assume it works. Thanks Krusty! --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:54, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == CSS Format Tweak ==<br /> <br /> In [[MediaWiki:Common.css|this]] page, please could an admin delete the &quot;margin-bottom: -0.5em;&quot; line from the &quot;table.wikitable caption&quot; definition? It's been bugging me for a while now: it causes table captions to overlap the table on pages like [[Daggerfall:Apothecaries of Stendarr|this]]. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : All done! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 17:23, 8 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> :: Better, thanks! If people can't see the change, do a hard-refresh to force a reload of the CSS. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Troublesome Anon ==<br /> <br /> I gave an IP a warning (seen [[User talk:70.116.88.174|here]]) after five nonsense edits to talk pages. However than a different [[http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/46.176.250.116 IP]] arrived and removed my warning. I honestly do not know what is the appropriate action at this point is so I'll rely on the administrators experience in this situation. I'll ignore this issue as I've already voiced my opinion on giving the warning. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Contribs]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Email]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Since the edits seem to have been made in good faith, just with a lack of understanding of what a wiki is about, I've changed the official warning to a friendly warning that's more specific to the anon's edits. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I chose to wait and see if any more trouble came our way from the anon, and it died out, as usual. I agree with RH70 at the same time; the additions may have triggered all the &quot;nonsense&quot;-alerts, but in theory it was more experimental than anything else. Just remember this; when you are at the beginning of an edit war it is sometimes useful to take a deep breath and wait - simply because anons like that tend to lose interest fairly quickly - and then you can revert everything in peace, without them even knowing it. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yeah I should of assumed good faith. I need to spend more times on the forums to get used to there style (which is what this was closer to on reflection). Sorry for bringing this up here, I'll try to use the notices more often. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Contribs]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Email]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Rename Request ==<br /> <br /> Please could an admin do [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piercethetruth&amp;curid=36428&amp;diff=650005&amp;oldid=650003 this]? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 06:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Obvious Vandal ==<br /> <br /> User [[User:Snedward| Snedward]], has vandalized a good 5 or 6 pages now. Sometimes he removes his own obscenties, sometimes he doesn't. Either way, he isn't here to help. [[User:Western3589|Western3589]] 04:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I would like to second that, now that he has vandalized my [[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy&amp;curid=91122&amp;diff=650116&amp;oldid=650090 user page]] after I simply gave him some [[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Snedward&amp;curid=92384&amp;diff=650108&amp;oldid=650106 polite advice]] it is obvious he does not want to help the wiki. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:49, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :And [[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy&amp;curid=91122&amp;diff=650124&amp;oldid=650118 again]], he clearly is not going to stop until he is blocked. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 06:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Failed protection of Lore:Skyrim? ==<br /> <br /> After a recent string on nonsense edits from an anon to this [[Lore:Skyrim|page]] it seems clear that the semi-protection on the page is not working. Can someone look into this? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Just a note: the semi-protection actually expired on December 26. Do we want to extend all the Skyrim protections until release date (or maybe even later)? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Re-adding SP to Lore:Skyrim is probably a good idea for now. At some point we'll have to have the debate about what to do come 11/11/11 but there are still a few things up in the air on that topic. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: We might as well SP the Lore page as well - when an anon realize that the official Skyrim:Skyrim page is SP'd, he/she will naturally turn to the other page. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Anon vandal ==<br /> <br /> This [[Special:Contributions/71.234.122.155|IP]] has inserted nonsense into several pages now, even after being warned. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:08, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : I can see two edits and a nonsensical response to the warning. I'll keep an eye out. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:22, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::Okay, to save me the trouble of reporting IP's or users to early when should I note them here? After four, five nonsense edits? Or if he/she branches out into more offensive forms of nonsense such as personally attacking other users? Or is this more of a judgment call kind of thing?--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:26, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::: There's no harm done in reporting it here; however, it is kind of normal for these people to add a few nonsense edits, receive a warning, then complain in some way - and then disappear. Always wait a few minutes after handing out a warning and if the nonsense continues, report it here. It IS a matter of judgment, although it can be a hrad task sometimes. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Main Page edit request ==<br /> <br /> At the moment we have a link at the bottom right of the [[:Main Page|Main Page]] to &quot;Newest Articles&quot;. The trouble is that with our namespace structure it doesn't work because the default link only shows new articles in mainspace, where almost nothing ever happens. Although this ''could'' be changed to show all namespaces (&lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ANewPages&amp;namespace=all&amp;username= like this]&lt;/span&gt;), that would include every new talk page and user page, which is also undesirable. My suggestion is that since the link appears at the bottom of the &quot;Did you know...&quot; section, that the link should point to [[:Main Page/Did You Know|this page]], with a link text of &quot;More facts...&quot; (or something like that - note that the &quot;...&quot; is for consistency with the other two main page links). Any objections? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : I've been puzzled about that empty link for the longest time - and you're right, it's pointless as it is now. I'll see what I can do - more facts are funnier than an empty page! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:54, 29 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protecting Archives ==<br /> <br /> [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Archive/AN_Registered_Spammers&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=655665 This] recent spam edit reminded me of a thought I had a while back. Can we semi-protect the archives? There is no reason anons should edit these pages and they are frequent targets for spam bots for some reason. This would be a good way to stop spam or nonsense edits to archives. It would also stop some confused editors from adding questions to archives (A somewhat frequent event) saving us the trouble of moving them to the proper talk page. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I suggested that [[UESPWiki:Archive/AN Archive Protection|here]] (okay, I was suggesting full protection, but the basic arguments still apply). Semi-protection might be a better idea and I'm certainly in favour of it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Having reviewed the arguments provided by the admins that responded to the topic that Rpeh linked I'll add this as well. By Semi-Protecting archives we allow for those instances of a topic that needs to be readdressed, and we also will stop the vandalism to those pages which means that it does fall under our [[UESPWiki:Protection Policy|Protection Policy]]. I also wish to say that since nearly every edit to an archive is wrong, since generally speaking only maintenance editing is allowed for archive pages there is no reason not to semi-protect archives. Anons and new users are less likely to know how to perform maintenance than Auto-confirmed users. Though it does create more work for the Admins it shouldn't be too much that they would be overwhelmed. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:24, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: That old discussion is hilarious due to the laziness on display. I have been thinking about the Archives for the longest time, as it makes no sense that we allow users to edit them freely then revert all edits anyway. Of course, it will take a long time protecting the existing archives, but it will be worth it. Just say the word. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I know what you mean... I don't think you're going to want to do the existing ones by hand though: assuming every page that transcludes the {{tl|Archive Header}} template is an archive, there are about 700 of them. It would be easier to ask Daveh to give bots the &lt;code&gt;protect&lt;/code&gt; right and do the first lot like that. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Well, if they all use the Template, why not add in to the template? Does that work? You could then add another optional parameter for when you want to skip the section. --{{FC|#800000|[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;}} 20:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::There's no way of saying &quot;protect every page that uses this one&quot;. You can do it the other way around - &quot;protect every page that this one uses&quot;, but I don't believe there's any alternative to protecting each page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}If we are going to do this, which it looks like we are going to, we should have the bots do all the heavy lifting and just protect any new ones manually. Seems like the best solution. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:06, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'll ask Daveh to make the necessary change. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Just as a reminder to myself more than anything, once this is done we should change the message [[MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext|here]] to check for the word &quot;archive&quot; in the title and display a different message directing people to the current talk page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:17, 9 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Request for Adminship ==<br /> <br /> Our Request for Adminship (RfA) process is based on [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship|Wikipedia]]'s policy. An editor, when nominated, accepts and answers questions, which can be asked by any registered editor. Votes and comments can also be left by any registered editor. [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] makes the call, based upon the community's consensus, after about a week.<br /> <br /> ===Rpeh===<br /> :{{userlinks|Rpeh}}<br /> <br /> This nomination is overdue by several months, but better late than never. We are facing the UESP’s biggest '''[[Skyrim:Skyrim|challenge]]''' ever and we need all the help and expertise we can get, so this nomination should not come as no surprise. We all know Rpeh as one of the most prolific editors on the UESP; not only because of his unbeatable and incredible '''[[Special:ActiveUsers|amount]]''' of edits, his hard-working and very convenient '''[[User:RoBoT|bot]]''' and his extensive knowledge on nearly all Elder Scrolls games in existence. Additionally, he is the most active patroller on the Wiki and the one people turn to for advice. He knows templates and '''[[Lore:Septim_Dynasty|complex]]''' wiki-markup better than anyone, and he is familiar with all aspects of administrative duties, even the ones I don’t know about. Finally, he enjoys huge respect within the community and with the number ''11.11.11'' in mind I see absolutely no reason not to provide him with the administrative buttons once again. <br /> <br /> ====Questions====<br /> '''Q1''': What do you hope to accomplish as an administrator?<br /> <br /> : Doing things without having to bother the other admins! There have been many cases where I've spotted a problem that only an admin can fix, from text tweaks on the [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] page to adjustments to the [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]]. 21 of the last 25 news stories were writen by me too, but I've always had to send a begging email to Krusty or GK to get them on the front page. This has meant that some things I want to do weren't practical. I want to update some of our CSS / Javascript settings to include some of the innovations used on other wikis such as [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_tables collapsible tables], but it would be too risky to start changing those without the ability to change back if something went wrong, and asking an admin to wait around while I test isn't sensible.<br /> <br /> : Other than that, I intend to keep editing and improving the site as much as I can, in preparation for...<br /> <br /> '''Q2''': What do you see as the UESP's main challenges in the near future?<br /> <br /> : Skyrim. From the online buzz I think it's already clear that this will be Bethesda's biggest game so far, which obviously means that it's going to be ''our'' biggest game so far too. There have already been some discussions behind the scenes about how to handle this, and a lot is still up in the air for now, but no matter what happens there's going to be a lot of work for the admins.<br /> <br /> : The challenge is clear enough but worth describing anyway. We have to get a huge amount of information onto the site as quickly as possible while reviewing the contributions of what will be a greater number of editors than any of us has ever seen. It's also important to remember that the new game isn't a job of work - it's a game. We want to allow people to play it instead of having to monitor the wiki all the time. We might end up having to close the wiki to comments for a short time, or close it just to new users. We might need to set up a rota so that there are always people around to keep an eye on the site but leaving enough time for everyone to play the game. We might need to promote several patrollers to admin status for a while to keep an eye on the rush. As I say, there's a lot that might change between now and then but at least we have options.<br /> <br /> '''Q3''': How do you interpret the balance between enforcing policies and being innovative when policies prove to be problematic?<br /> <br /> : This is going to be a frequently-asked question after Skyrim's release. There will probably be dozens of users who break the rules and technically end up deserving a block. It's going to be important to consider what's best for the site in all cases: will blocking the user be better in the long run than posting an explanation on a talk page, for instance.<br /> <br /> : Wikipedia has a very useful, though potentially dangerous, rule: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules Ignore All Rules], which states that &quot;If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.&quot; I think this rule allows policy to be relaxed sometimes if it's sensible. It should never be invoked to punish a user that otherwise didn't deserve a punishment, but reducing or removing a punishment seems like a sensible use. This kind of thing has been used before on acceptable usernames, for instance. I usually advocate ignoring all but the most serious infringements of the username policy to avoid the kind of drama the user wanted to create.<br /> <br /> : In general, if an admin feels that he or she has pushed the edge of a policy, all it takes is a quick post to the Admin Noticeboard explaining the decision. If the others disagree, things can be turned around easily enough.<br /> <br /> '''Q4''': What other wiki-related activities do you perform that people might not know about?<br /> <br /> ''(I added this question after a Real Life friend suggested it - I think it's worth including)''<br /> <br /> : I've spent dozens of hours on our interactive maps. This started with a program to remove the blocks of colour that the construction set adds when it exports the maps, and most recently saw me colouring the water on our maps blue, to replace the ugly, dust-coloured tiles that existed before. Even with the help received from [[User:Killfetzer|Killfetzer]], this was a long job but a really rewarding one.<br /> <br /> : I keep a regular check on several other TES-related wikis to make sure our content isn't being taken without attribution. This happens more often than you might think, and I feel it's important to keep tabs on such activities to ensure our editors get the credit they deserve.<br /> <br /> : I also perform regular checks on our maintenance pages, making sure we don't get too many missing categories, templates, images, and pages.<br /> <br /> : These days I seem to be the only editor on the UESP [http://blog.uesp.net blog]. This isn't a critical part of the UESP site, but some articles get quite a few views and it's part of introducing UESP to a wider community.<br /> <br /> : Answering UESP-related email. This isn't a huge job, and I only get about an email a week (or less), but they often come in groups when an editor wants help on a specific problem. This isn't constrained to inexperienced users: I've had email requests from admins asking for data sets that they can't generate themselves!<br /> <br /> : [[User:RoBoT|RoBoT]] doesn't write itself, and I've spent quite a bit of time writing and rewriting it. I'm currently writing a whole new version to lose dependence on the rather outdated DotNetWiki framework. It's looking good at the moment!<br /> <br /> : There are probably other things I do, but that's a good enough selection for now.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> Cast votes with '''Support''', '''Oppose''', or '''Neutral'''. '''Comment'''s are also welcome.<br /> *'''Support''': As nominator. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 15:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is one of the best editors around. Not really anything else to say here, he simply is. As he is one of our most active users with past administrator experience, and the admiration of many of the sites users it seems foolish of us not to give him admin powers. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh knows his stuff, and has definitely earned an admin position through his diligence and hard work on the wiki.--[[User:Pwnageincarnate|Pwnageincarnate]] 16:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)Pwnageincarnate<br /> *'''Support''': The amount of work he does on the wiki is phenomenal. He is often one to make decisive judgement on tricky matters, and his opinions are always sound. And, as AKB said, he had past adminship so there's not much chance of him being unqualified. This request seems like a no-brainer to me. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 16:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': He's done more work on this wiki than I can possibly imagine doing. Good Luck.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is one of the most qualified editors around and he knows his stuff better than almost anyone. He's worked his ass off so much for this site I can't see why he shouldn't be given the extra buttons he is best placed to tinker about with. But most importantly, he was my trust and respect; it's a definite &quot;support&quot; from me :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Oppose''': Rpeh was [[User:Rpeh/RfA|previously an admin]]. He was de-admined (or rather he voluntarily gave up his admin position just a step ahead of having it removed from him) because he engaged in [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_13#Rpeh.2C_De-Admin_Request|sock-puppetry]]. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 21:19, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> **''Alleged'', never proven and always inaccurate. Good to see you again after your long break, Wrye. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ***''Proven''. See Nephele's excellent summary in the block starting with &quot;The evidence that Calliope and rpeh were simultaneously editing from the same location is, unfortunately, unambiguous.&quot; And, although I found it very surprising that rpeh had done something so extreme, I unfortunately did not find it out of character.&lt;br&gt;Given such a gross violation of wiki standards, I find it unfortunate that rpeh is a noted editor here. Be that as it may, he absolutely should not be given admin status again. (Is he prolific? Absolutely. But thats not enough -- an admin has to be trustworthy and follow community standards as well.)&lt;br&gt;Since I'm retired from the ES community, I probably won't have much further to say on the issue. The past evidence is clear and was well aired in the original [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_13#Rpeh.2C_De-Admin_Request|De-Admin Request]]. One can also look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry Sock puppetry] page on Wikipedia for a review of why sock puppets are forbidden. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 22:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> **'''Question''': Can any one vote here? [[Special:Contributions/94.76.208.5|94.76.208.5]] 21:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** '''Answer''': Unfortunately, no. You will have to make an account for the vote to count. See [[UESPWiki:Etiquette#General|this section]]. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ***You're free to speak your mind, and your opinion will be respected, of course. This just means that your vote won't be included in the final tally. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 03:47, 15 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh has done alot of good things on this site much more than any one else. He should defiantly be an admin. [[User:Deanna|Deanna]] 22:07, 10 April 2011 (UTC) (I was the user who asked the question I remembered my password)<br /> *'''Support''': I'm disappointed in the suggestion that any activity, alleged or proven (even activity serious enough to be banned and/or de-adminned for), should result in an automatic &quot;oppose&quot; vote over a year and a half later. Even if you just assume that rpeh ''was'' responsible for the actions he was accused of in the incident noted by [[User:Wrye|Wrye]], that's not what this RfA is about. Rpeh is knowledgeable about various administrative duties that no other active admins are. He maintains areas of the wiki that would be easier to maintain (and therefore better maintained) if he had access to admin tools. From every angle that I can see, granting him Administrator rights could only benefit the wiki. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** Yes there are actions which should result in a permanent ban from adminship, and sock puppetry is one of them. It's not just the action itself, but also the general attitude that it demonstrates. Wikis are built on respectful, fair, honest, civil discussions. Sockpuppetry is the opposite of all that. That's why it's forbidden.<br /> ** Again this is beyond ''alleged'' -- the proof is very conclusive. See the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_13#Rpeh.2C_De-Admin_Request|De-Admin Request]] for the discussion/review of it. And, although the extremity of sock puppetry was a bit stunning, it did not seem out of character for rpeh, who seemed to have had run ins with all of the other admins at the time.<br /> ** Keeping active admins is important, but more important is having admins who support the core civilty of the wiki. As [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator_conduct wikipedia puts it] ''Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others.'' I would hope that we would have some good candidates available, however things do tend to fall into a lull between games, so perhaps UESP will need to be a bit thin for a while. (And yes, UESP has been through periods with very little adminship going on.) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 05:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *** Look, Wrye, this is painful to watch. You haven’t made a single edit in a year, yet you make a heroic return in an attempt to [[UESPWiki:Interaction_Ban|provoke]] Rpeh and change the general opinion of the ACTIVE editors on the site. The UESP has changed a lot in your absence and while I expected the return of bitter, “retired” editors for this nomination, this is going nowhere fast. Please stop this [[Special:Contributions/Wrye|unconvincing]] argument and the endless wave of redundant links to old discussions and WP-policies. That type of behavior belongs in a different era, and that era is long gone. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 06:50, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> **** &quot;Era is long gone.&quot; Sadly, that may be true. Reasonable arguments in a discussion such as this should be treated as such -- and not as personal attacks. Part of the point of an Rfa is bring up possible objections; i.e. to allow people to vote ''oppose'' as well as ''support'', and to state the reasons for that. A previous de-adminship is obviously germane; bringing it up does not require a &quot;heroic&quot; effort, nor should it be &quot;painful to watch&quot;; nor does it indicate &quot;bitterness&quot; nor an attempt to &quot;provoke&quot;. Charactering reasonable and relevant arguments as an emotional attack was not previously the norm. If it is now the norm, then yes, things have changed. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 03:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ***** Of course you are allowed to voice your opinion, and are allowed to vote however you choose. However it is almost impossible to say this isn't emotional or an attempt to provoke an argument considering this is you first edit in over a year. Once again there is no problem with an editor going inactive, though it is sad. But it makes it seem like you are trying to start a fight when this is how you come out of retirement(Besides a reply to your talk page). Whether the allegations of Rpeh's sockpuppetry are true are not, they simply are not relevant after so long and thousands of edits without any warnings or bans. His record has been perfect since then and pretty much all active editors have an extremely high opinion of him. It borders the ridiculous to say that you can't trust an editor with more privileges after so long and so much effort.<br /> *****To quote you ''Is he prolific? Absolutely. But thats not enough -- an admin has to be trustworthy and follow community standards as well.''<br /> *****If anything he has raised the communities standards after all his effort and quality edits, and he has many editors absolute trust. His regular activity is just the icing on the cake. Simply put Rpeh is a great editor with the communities trust. All we are doing by giving him Admin abilities is by allowing him to help maintain the site, and do tasks that he has been doing by proxy of the current admins. In my opinion when it reaches the point when we are making less work for everyone involved by giving an editor more powers than they deserve them. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh has no doubtable made his mark on the wiki. He has helped me on several occasions, as well as so many other users, and does so much to help the wiki, such as the ONPCRP and the recently completed MQRP. To be honest, I was surprised when I found out rpeh wasn't an admin already. Being an admin, rpeh will be more of a help than he is already. Needless to say, thanks rpeh and keep it up! - [[User:Emoboy64|Emoboy64]] 21:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Nothing to add that hasn't been said, but I've been waiting a long time to cast this vote. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;padding:1px;background:#FFF;&quot;&gt;[[User:Viroconium|&lt;font style=&quot;color:white;background:#8FBC8F;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;VIROCONIUM&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 01:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Oppose''': While his content editing is excellent, Rpeh is simply not someone I feel has the temperament to be an Administrator, nor is he someone I feel I could ever trust with the rights that Administrators and CheckUsers have. In addition to the reasons cited by Wrye, rpeh has been single-handedly responsible for the departure of the four most prolific users on the site other than himself (yes, I'm including myself in that) as well as several other less-prolific users due to his incivility and bullying (e.g., [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_21#A_Little_Less_Conversation.2C_a_Little_More_Action|A Little Less Conversation, a Little More Action]]). The fact that the current set of Administrators not only look the other way when he is uncivil, but actively make excuses for him because of how prolific he is, only makes the situation worse. Like Wrye, I feel the atmosphere here has changed significantly since I first joined, particularly when people who vote Oppose are asked to stop making a fuss. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** The idea that I'm personally responsible for people leaving is one of UESP's own [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_refuted_a_thousand_times PRATTs] - a Point Refuted A Thousand Times. If you left because of me, then that's obviously your right, but don't presume to assign motives to other people.<br /> ** I didn't say anything uncivil or bullying in that thread, and the only time I can remember being less than polite was to one particular user, where there was deep mutual hostility. I'm sure you know who I mean. Personally, the way you kept bringing up cases on the Admin Noticeboard for every perceived infraction on my part was far closer to bullying than anything I've done.<br /> ** As for the changed atmosphere caused by &quot;people who vote Oppose are asked to stop making a fuss&quot; point, it's demonstrably wrong. One of Nephele's [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/De-Adminship_Request#Nephele.27s_Opinion|specific points]] against Aristeo in Feb 2007 was &quot;Opposing Lurlock's nomination to be admin&quot;.<br /> ** I don't mind people voting against me, but I do find it distinctly odd that a self-confessed &quot;retired&quot; user and someone claims to have left the site both feel the need to come back purely to make a vote. If you've left, leave. Coming back to stir up trouble isn't appreciated. That's the point being made here, and one with which I fully concur. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is by far one of the best , and due to Skyrim coming out , he will be needed more than ever. [[User:JackTurbo95|JackTurbo95]] 09:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Neutral''': I feel as a fellow Patroller I should put in my voice. In my time on the wiki I have never seen Rpeh act in a way that I feel is inappropriate. He has been overall helpful to me and to other uses to whom he has assisted. He has also done much to help the site overall, as seen by the many projects he has started and/or participated in. That said, the past does have a way of coming back. Looking through some of the links, it is very clear that he has made some definite enemies over the years. Personally, I found any evidence to be too subjective to play entirely into the decision here, but doubt is a powerful feeling. I feel that as I had not been part of the community during the earlier conflicts that I can not give a full opinion. I just ask everyone to consider this: If the roles were reversed, would you want your past actions to decide your entire future? Please be civil and respectful. Hate and assault is a vicious circle of defeat. --{{FC|#800000|[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;}} 15:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** I've spent some time wondering whether I should reply to this and eventually decided &quot;yes&quot;. &quot;Enemies&quot; is a very, very strong word, and having thought about it, I don't believe I have any here - from my point of view. If people want to regard me as their personal nemesis, that's entirely down to them. There aren't even that many people who I would ''never'' want to see on the site again. The only examples that spring to mind are [[User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God]], [[User:Xbox]] and [[User:Benny220]]. I'm not going to re-hash the stories for those three now but feel free to look through their contributions for the reasons why. Have I had disputes with other people? Yes. Several. But they were entirely necessary. Take [[UESPWiki:Archive/AN Archive Protection|this]], for instance, where I refrained from argument and let three other admins exhibit what a later one called &quot;laziness&quot;. Take the dispute over Lore sources, where I was later described as the only person who came out of the debate with a coherent position.<br /> ** People have accused me of being divisive. Maybe. But when I have an idea, I ask people about it before going ahead and implementing it. Where is the discussion that Wrye held before deciding to host documentation for his personal mods on this site? Where is the discussion that Lurlock initiated before introducing icons to the Morrowind NPC template, an action that was widely hated at the time, but which was kept quiet because nobody wanted trouble? There are several people who have attempted to re-mould UESP to their own vision without consulting the community, and I have always fought that. I WILL ALWAYS fight that.<br /> ** In my [[User:Rpeh/RfA|first RfA]] I described one of UESP's biggest challenges to be keeping the community we had. I have done my bit. Let anybody stand here and tell me otherwise. I've given praise to new editors while guiding their efforts to improve them. I've chased after previously-active editors who have disappeared. I've started new projects so people can easily find things to do, and helped them along when they've started to take part.<br /> ** What - and this is a serious challenge - what have my so-called enemies done in comparison? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is in my opinion, probably the best editor on this website. He has done ​​nearly 70,000 edits on the wiki, which is far more than anyone else. If we give him adminship he will just be able to get even more work done. I've not been here for to long, but from what I've seen, he's more than a worthy administrator. So i clearly support! --[[User:Archain|Archain]] 20:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': I've been gone for some time now, and I hope my vote shows a more respectful and less vindictive tone. It is obvious that rpeh and myself have not gotten along for quite some time. We ha&lt;tt&gt;(d|ve)&lt;/tt&gt; differing views on how a wiki should run: I wished for a fast paced wiki where it can evolve faster, where decisions can be quick when necessary, and where votes were thrown out the window. Rpeh always wished for the old style ''consensus'' gathering. People may attack either of our personalities as reasons to hate us, but we both wanted to better the wiki, no doubt. I think rpeh got frustrated too easily, while I got impatient too easily. I typically understood where rpeh came from, but there are some things I stood firm on, which caused friction. Rpeh is notorious for lambasting editors, and it is something that I don't expect to change. It's who he is; however, I've come to understand that he means well. Rpeh, if you do become an administrator, I hope you do see that it is faith instilled in you not only by newer people who barely know you, but by people who know exactly who you are and how you think (we also know how the AWOL administrators think). I am willing to take that gamble because the wiki can get more out of you as an administrator. We can all believe what we want to about the fiasco that happened well over a year ago, but it doesn't really mean much now. You shouldn't be forced to wear that as some scarlet letter. '''''[[User:Elliot|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#002BB8;&quot;&gt;Elliot&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User_talk:Elliot|&lt;small&gt;(&lt;span style=&quot;color:#002BB8;&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;)&lt;/small&gt;]]''''' 04:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support''': GK and Krusty both voiced my own thoughts on the issue. What happened a while back really is a long while back; almost the entire userbase has changed. Back then rpeh had also raised his own regret at involving himself too much with administrative duties relative to &quot;normal&quot; editing, something he is himself fully aware of, which I now believe won't happen again. &lt;br /&gt;Admittely, I have been editing less frequent this year, something I do intend to correct with the approaching release of Skyrim! Yes rpeh tends to be less diplomatic at times than I would prefer myself (in which he wouldn't be the only admin) but on the other hand he does document most what he is doing. In other words, every administrator has its stronger and weaker qualities. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': I've read some interesting things here. I was at first surprised Rpeh wasn't an admin, but I didn't know he was one before. In any case, as many other have said, Rpeh has done a LOT of work, and he's still going at it like it's nothing. However, despite not being here for so long, I've seen some strange disputes with Rpeh and other users. I won't bother looking for an example, I don't really need to prove anything I'm sure. My conclusion, as to what I've seen on the site and read here, is simply that Rpeh has a short fuse and has the urge to critisize other users, as if he's feeling he's more important than the other editors. I've asked for his help several times during my own work, like the Golden Saint page, but I was always a bit scared to, because I didn't know if he was going to give an angry response (though he never did and helped out well). I've never had a dispute with him anyhow, and I'm not planning on having disputes at all, with anyone. I just wanted to say that, the past is the past, and we should give Rpeh another chance, especially because he does a lot of work. But I would advise, with all due respect, try to stay calm, whatever the situation. What you contribute is appreciated, that goes to all editors, how small the contribution is, but the atmosphere is at least just as important. Also, you sound as if you are forced to work on the site, while you should choose to do so, you're not responsible for the site, if you keep that in mind I think you'll be fine :) ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 15:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''' &amp;ndash; I've been waiting for this. I recommend reading all of the fancier comments above mine. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 03:40, 15 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Potential Multi Account Vandal ==<br /> <br /> Earlier a user called [[Special:Contributions/W00d_elf|W00d elf]] started vandalizing the [[Lore:Redguard]] page until he or she was blocked. Just a minute ago another new user called [[Special:Contributions/Negro_bob|Negro bob]], after registering proceeded to vandalize the Redguard page in virtually the same way W00d elf did. It seems clear to me that W00d elf is bypassing his ban with a sockpuppet to continue to vandalize. Just wanted to put this here so the admins can keep an eye out for this guy. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Multiple IP Confusion ==<br /> <br /> Several IP anons have been posting around claiming that they have been warned or blocked. See [[User talk:Wolok gro-Barok#I_was_falsely_accused.|User talk:Wolok gro-Barok]] and [[User talk:Rpeh#Vandalism|User talk:Rpeh]]. The Anons have blank talk pages with no curious edits to be seen. --{{FC|#800000|[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;}} 23:52, 14 April 2011 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=657331 2011-04-15T03:40:44Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]]<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> {{Archive Table|class=compress|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|Page Archives|<br /> |Archive 1||February 2005 – June 2006<br /> |Archive 2||June 2006 – August 2006<br /> |Archive 3||September 2006 – June 2007<br /> |Archive 4||June 2007 – July 2007<br /> |Archive 5||August 2007 – October 2007<br /> |Archive 6||October 2007 – November 2007<br /> |Archive 7||December 2007 – January 2008<br /> |Archive 8||January 2008 – February 2008<br /> |Archive 9||February 2008 – August 2008<br /> |Archive 10||September 2008 – October 2008<br /> |Archive 11||November 2008 – December 2008<br /> |Archive 12||December 2008 – March 2009<br /> |Archive 13||April 2009 – December 2009<br /> |Archive 14||January 2010 – May 2010<br /> |Archive 15||June 2010<br /> |Archive 16||June 2010 - October 2010<br /> |Archive 17||November 2010 - December 2010<br /> |!|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfA|Aristeo's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jun. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Nephele/RfA|Nephele's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 13, 2006''<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfB|Aristeo's Request for Bureaucrat|''Withdrawn by Aristeo Nov. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Ratwar/RfA|Ratwar's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jan. 31, 2007''<br /> |User:TheRealLurlock/RfA|TheRealLurlock's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Feb. 23, 2007''<br /> |User:Rpeh/RfA|Rpeh's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Oct. 1, 2007''<br /> |UESPWiki:Archive/AN Request for Server Access|Nephele's Request for Server Access|''Approved Jan. 4, 2008''<br /> |User:Eshe/RfA|Eshe's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Mar. 31, 2008''<br /> |User:GuildKnight/RfA|GuildKnight's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Nov. 11, 2008''<br /> |User:Timenn/RfA|Timenn's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 7, 2009''<br /> |User:Krusty/RfA|Krusty's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved May 3, 2010''<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == Upcoming Hardware Changes ==<br /> <br /> This post is to make everyone aware of a number of significant changes coming up on the hardware side of the site. I've been working with iWeb to provide a number of upgrades at the same time that are within our budget in a manner than permits zero downtime.<br /> <br /> Currently these hardware changes include:<br /> <br /> :* '''Private Rack --''' Moving our six servers to a private rack with two spaces to spare for future servers. The two main reasons for this are bandwidth consolidation and performance. Currently, our main Internet facing servers (squid1 and files1) have a monthly bandwidth of 1500GB. While this sounds like a lot we're very close to exceeding this amount in the past few months. Exceeding the monthly cap can be very expensive and we've had monthly bills of several hundred dollars in past years. By moving to a private rack we now get 10000GB/month which does not include any internal traffic between the servers. There should also be a small amount of performance improvement by moving to a private rack as all internal server traffic would use 1000Mbps compared to the mixed 10/100Mbps now in addition to the actual physical distance between servers (100s of ft down to several). The external connection to the Internet is also increased to 100Mbps for all servers. I'm not sure exactly how much performance increase to expect, it may not even be noticeable at the current traffic levels but it will definitely help when the traffic increases in a few months due to Skyrim.<br /> :* '''RAID --''' Add RAID1 to the database and files server for redundancy purposes. This will significantly reduce the amount of downtime if/when we see another hard drive failure on those servers. There isn't enough benefit compared to the cost t:o similarly add it to the remaining content and squid servers. The content servers are already mirrored/load balanced and if the squid goes down there are simple ways to temporarily redirect traffic to one of the content servers.<br /> :* '''Hard Drive for Backup --''' Increase the hard drive size of content3 for backup purposes. This will just make it easier to setup rotating backups in one place without having to juggle free disk space.<br /> :* '''CPU/RAM --''' Upgrade all servers to the same CPU and RAM (i3 Dual Core 2.93 GHz and 4GB). More of both can always be used in some manner and it makes load balancing the content servers much easier.<br /> :* '''Site Cost --''' The monthly cost of the site's servers will increase from the current 400$/month to over 700$/month and I'll be pre-purchasing all servers for 24 months to get a discount. Fortunately, the ad revenue has been very good this past year so we shouldn't have any problem supporting it for the next few years at least.<br /> :* '''Future Thoughts --''' Hardware wise this setup should be good for a significant increase in traffic. A conservative guess would say at least 5x the current traffic which is unlikely to occur in the near future. Given the trends of past ES title releases I would expect a traffic peak of about 2x at Skyrim's release at the end of the year compared to the current traffic (so in the order of 2 million page views/day). We still have two free spaces in the private stack and more servers outside the stack can always be obtained as needed.<br /> <br /> The plan is to get six completely new servers installed in the private rack which will let me setup and switch over each server one by one with minimal down time. I'm aiming for zero downtime and only a limited amount of time when the site is set to read-only (partially or fully) so the change to the new servers should be transparent to most visitors. The process of switching over likely won't begin for a few weeks and I'll post something here whenever I plan on setting something to read-only. I have an arbitrary amount of time to keep the old servers so I always have the option to switch back to the original server should issues pop up.<br /> <br /> If anyone has any requests for additional hardware or features just let me know in the next few days since the deal with iWeb hasn't been finalized yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:19, 28 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Sounds brilliant! The private rack should make a ''big'' difference - anybody who doesn't know our current setup should look at the [[UESPWiki:Servers|Servers]] page and imagine how much data is zipping around between the different boxes. I imagine the RAM upgrade will make a big difference too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:42, 28 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> '''Update -- 7 Feb 2011:''' I finalized the deal with iWeb last week and received the servers on Friday. I'll be setting up the servers this week and beginning to switch them over in roughly the following order:<br /> :* files1 -- Best to do this first as it makes setting up the new content servers easier. There will be a short window of time where uploads will be disabled.<br /> :* content3 -- Nothing is currently relying on this host so it can be switched over easily.<br /> :* content1/2 -- These are similarly easy to switch by just updating the Squid cache to point to the new hosts. <br /> :* squid1 -- Once setup it is a simple matter of changing the DNS entry for ''www.uesp.net'' and letting the change propagate naturally over the next 24 hours.<br /> :* db1 -- The trickiest one that will require a short window with the wiki/forum set to read only when the switch is made.<br /> I'll post here when each server switch is occurring and any issues that appear can be posted here as well. I'll make a server switch every couple of days to permit any issues to reveal themselves and make it easier to diagnose their source. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Issue Note: 9 Feb 2011 -- ''' In case anyone just noticed some site issues (images/skins not loading, sessions invalid, etc...) that was just me playing around with NFS on the new servers and files1 which caused the NFS shares on content1/2/3 to become invalid. All should be well now. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Files1 Update: 14 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on beginning the switch for files1 to the new hardware sometime tonight if everything goes well. I'll lock Wiki uploads for a short period but that should be the only noticeable effect. I'll update here as it goes and if anyone notices any issues you can record them here as well. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 22:35, 14 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Wiki uploads disabled now. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 23:39, 14 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Re-enabled uploads. There is an issue with content1/2 accessing the lockd server on newfiles1 I have to figure out first. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:02, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Figured out the issue and disabled Wiki uploads again. PHP session files on content1/2 are running from newfiles1. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Switched shares on content1/2 to newfiles1. Switched directories on files1 to mounts from newfiles1. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:15, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Changed DNS entries for maps/skins/images/files to point to the newfiles1 server. Propagation will take ~24 hours to fully switch. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:18, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Re-enabled Wiki uploads and did a quick test. Everything seems to be in order but let me know if you see anything out of the ordinary. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: It's worth saying that I've been hitting the file upload page pretty hard over the past couple of days and there haven't been any problems. I think I'd have noticed. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:47, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Content2 Update: 17 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on switching over content2 to the new server tonight. This will be a very simple procedure which just requires squid1 to be restarted so there should be no site interruption besides a few seconds of downtime. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 19:33, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Content2 switched over. I noted a few minor issues in the error log which may be new or only just visible now that I'll be watching. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:00, 18 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Content1 Update: 19 Feb 2011 --''' Content1 was just switched to the new server. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 15:44, 19 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Squid1 Update: 21 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on switching to the new squid1 server sometime today. Barring any issue there should be no service interruption. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 16:32, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :DNS entries for www.uesp.net changed to point to the new squid1 server. It will slowly begin to take over all requests in the next day or two. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:00, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Db1 Update: 23 Feb 2011 --''' I plan on switching db1 tonight sometime if everything works out. This will require the Wiki and forums to be put into read only mode for a while (up to an hour at most) while the switch is made. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:07, 23 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Locking Wiki/forums shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:29, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Test edit from content3. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:41, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Test edit from content2. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Test edit from content1. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Wiki/forums re-enabled. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 00:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Changed database host address for all secondary services (maps, EQWiki, Blog, DaveWiki). Shut down old db1 and tested all sites to make sure they are still working. Barring any issues we should be good. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:02, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> '''Summary: 28 Feb 2011 --''' All servers have been successfully switched over and appear to be running fine so I canceled the old servers yesterday. There is still a lot of work left on the new servers to setup monitoring, backups, documentation, and other minor services. On a slightly related note the site had its highest daily traffic ever this weekend at around 950k Wiki page views (or around 8 million files) each day on Saturday and Sunday beating the previous record by a decent 10%. Despite the high traffic volume the new servers didn't appear to notice it which means we should be good for the upcoming traffic spike for Skyrim. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 01:13, 1 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == vandal IP ==<br /> <br /> this guy keeps vandalizing skill pages: 98.15.210.73 {{unsigned|Pwnageincarnate|01:34, 4 February 2011}} <br /> : Only two vandal edits and the fact that he/she stopped right after being warned does not really warrant any further actions. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 05:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vandal ==<br /> <br /> Using a second account. [[User talk:XinXXX]]. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:31, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :And another [[User talk:XinXXXX]]. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:34, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: All done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 05:25, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vandal ==<br /> <br /> Please take care of this IP 24.109.215.3. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:06, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Done. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 04:37, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::Your welcome, and thank you, I feared I'd have to hit F5 all night to keep a watch on recent changes. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:40, 10 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Precautionary Protection ==<br /> <br /> Just as a precaution, can an Admin please semi-protect [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Block Notifications]]. It was vandalized once very early on, and really, nobody but Blockers and Admins should normally have any reason to edit it anyway. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:53, 11 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Namespaces in Search ==<br /> <br /> Please could an admin add the missing namespaces to [[MediaWiki:Uesppowersearchtable|this page]] so they show up on the search options. It looks like we're missing Skyrim, Dawnstar, Stormhold and OBMobile. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:05, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Hmm, this is odd. I can only choose to &quot;create&quot; a new page, with no &quot;edit&quot; options. Maybe Daveh is the only one allowed to do this? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:31, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :: No, it's just that the page is using the default value at the moment so a new page needs to be created to override it. See Nephele's instructions [[UESPWiki:UespCustomCode#Updates|here]]. You'll probably need to copy/paste the default onto the new page, but if the worst comes to the worst you can always just speedy-delete the page anyway. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:38, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::: Okay, done. One thing that puzzles me is that Skyrim, Stormhold and Dawnstar is not ticked by default when I do a search. Did I miss anything? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:07, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :::: Thanks, that's perfect! The namespaces ticked by default are set in your [[Special:Preferences|preferences]], on the Search tab. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 11:12, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::::: Oh yes, the Preferences - figured it out right after hitting &quot;save&quot;. Still, everything seems to be fine now and it is refreshing to be able to search for &quot;Eustacia&quot; and get some results. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:16, 12 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spammer ==<br /> <br /> [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:First_Time_Players&amp;curid=9394&amp;diff=642576&amp;oldid=639185 This edit] is pure spam so should get an infinite block. It doesn't look like we have any admins around at the moment, but it one should pass by, please could he or she do the honours? Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:12, 15 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == And another spammer ==<br /> <br /> The IP is 109.230.251.252, the page it created was a sandbox for a talk page of an inactive editor. I blanked it and added a speedy template but the IP still needs to be taken care of. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:52, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Edit: and [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] already took care of it, thanks for the swift response! --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:54, 17 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Blocker Rights ==<br /> <br /> I wasn't sure where exactly to put this, so I figure here would be alright. I know that I was just recently made a Patroller, but I would like to ask again for more rights; this time as a Blocker. There have been several times where I have been working against vandals while no admin is online. I feel that in these times, a short block would have been very successful in warning the vandal, but nobody was around to do so. I cannot find much information on Blockers, but I have seen rpeh do so, and I think I could handle the responsibility. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Vandal IP==<br /> In relation to my above statement, an IP has been acting out a bit. [[User talk:72.39.123.186]] [[Special:Contributions/72.39.123.186]]. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 04:04, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I think this is a simple misunderstanding, and the IP got a little hostile as a result of that. I've tried to explain the situation on their [[User talk:72.39.123.186|talk page]]. We'll see what happens. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:13, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Clearly this has moved beyond the level of a &quot;simple misunderstanding&quot;. Given what's been happening on the IPs talk page, can I ask an Admin to give him a cool-off block including his talk page? So far, he's confined himself to that page, so either rpeh or I blocking him would be ineffective. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:49, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Just woke up, so I'll be watching. Regardless, is it true you guys can't use your three-hour block rights to block a user from editing his talk page? I didn't know that. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:35, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Yes, that was one of the stipulations of being a Blocker was that we wouldn't have that right, so they would always be able to appeal before a possible full block. Oh and technically we have 4 hour block rights, it's just that with 3 being in the drop-down, that's usually sufficient and easier to select. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Hmm, that is ridiculous; these days where GK is busy with things much more important than this site (and I'm down with a less important cold, sleeping 12 hours a night), we need you guys to be able to do what we do. Also, I'm pretty sure nobody but you and rpeh will get Blockuser rights anytime soon, and why should one of you start abusing your blocker rights all of a sudden? If nobody objects, I'll contact Daveh so you can block users from editing their talk pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 09:03, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm fine with it either way. I mean, it's nice to be able to give a full cool-down when needed, but at the same time, there's only so much harm a user can do (besides a little cluttering of RC) when limited to their own talk page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:50, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: E-mail to Daveh sent. It might be a minor thing, but it doesn't make sense to give editors a 4-hour &quot;cool-down&quot;-block and at the same time invite them to freak out on their talk page. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:00, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection ==<br /> <br /> &lt;s&gt;To discourage a repeat of the incident mentioned in the previous section, could an admin please semi-protect [[Template:OB Purchased Spell Notes]]. I've checked the other [[:Category:Notes Templates|Notes Templates]], and they should all be fine.&lt;/s&gt; ''(No longer necessary due to changes in template.)'' &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:40, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Can I go further here? We've had huge changes in templates over the past 12-18 months, and a lot of things have changed. There are several templates that are used on literally hundreds or thousands of pages that are not currently protected. [[Special:MostLinkedTemplates|This]] is the page to visit for details, and as I said some time back when a couple of ignorant people were accusing me of vandalising the site, that page is a great was of advertising the pages that will cause the most damage.<br /> <br /> :The &quot;User&quot; templates on that list don't matter so much, but there are templates like {{tl|Autolink}} and {{tl|Infobox Style}} that are used on over a thousand pages that currently have no protection. Templates like {{tl|NPC Summary/Tamriel Rebuilt Other}} only appear at #64, but would seriously screw up the site if edited badly.<br /> <br /> :Going even further, some templates, like {{tl|!}}, {{tl|!!}} and {{tl|!-}}, should never be edited at all. I remember saying that 18 months ago, too. They could be fully protected to stop anybody screwing with them.<br /> <br /> :In general, there are only a few of the top 50 templates that shouldn't be at least SPed. Many of the next 50 should also get protected. Then there are examples like the Notes Templates that RH brought up, for which there are other reasons for protection. I don't like protecting pages in general, but in cases like this I think there's good reason to do it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 04:38, 20 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Okay, I'll get started on the top 50 now. Somebody feel free to add the relevant padlocks. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 17:54, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Ah well, I took the top 100. So far so good. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:39, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, all done with the requests on this page; if anything else needs some protection, hit me on my talk page. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:45, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Another spammer ==<br /> <br /> IP number 178.150.200.230, it has added two spam messages now to what seems to be a porn site. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:53, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Blocked for 3 hours. I imagine an admin will be along shortly to make it permanent. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:04, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks Rpeh, lets hope this one won't slip through the cracks again. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:15, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 17:27, 21 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Skyrim Semi Protection ==<br /> <br /> Based on [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Skyrim:Skyrim&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=645127 this recent edit], the semi protection for [[Skyrim:Skyrim]] is failing or not implemented correctly. --[[User:Wizy|Wizy]] &lt;span style=&quot;font-size:7pt;&quot;&gt;([[User_Talk:Wizy|Talk]]/[[Special:Contributions/Wizy|Contribs]])&lt;/span&gt; 03:58, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : I gave it another 6 months; the original semi-protection only lasted a month (obviously made before we expanded it), so thanks for noticing. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:10, 24 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Worshiper to Worshipper ==<br /> <br /> Sorry if I'm a bit late bringing this topic up. rpeh [[User_talk:Legoless#Spelling|said]] that using a bot to fix the spellings could be problematic as there's no way to distinguish an in-game source. I'd be willing to take on the project myself, but a solution to the problem of clogging up the recent changes page needs to be made. Thoughts? [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 01:42, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Do it late at night? If I remember correctly bots are only supposed to be ran in the dead of night to avoid them clogging up the recent changes when people are actually editing, since this is a bot-like task I believe the same rules should apply. As this [[UESPWiki:bots|page]] says ''&quot;The bot will not be run during periods with heavy server traffic (Defined as noon-9pm PDT weekends and 3pm-9pm PDT weekdays).&quot;''. This option would avoid the worst clogging of recent changes in my opinion. Anyone else agree with me? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thing is, I'm GMT. I'd probably have to do it early in the morning so as to disturb the least amount of people. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 02:09, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: As long as you are making useful edits, clogging up the RC is no problem at all. Just go ahead whenever you feel like it - and thanks! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:06, 25 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I'm almost finished, but for the Daggerfall Daedric quest articles. They seems to consistently use the single 'p' spelling, even in dialogue quotes where the &quot;worshiper's name&quot; is supposed to be inserted. I haven't played Daggerfall expensively, so does anyone know if the worshippers are spelling like that in-game? If so I think I might leave those pages alone. Or, it might stem from the fact that all the articles seem to be written by the same group of people (the Daggerfall masters, I assume), who probably use the same spelling throughout. Does anyone know for sure? [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 00:29, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I just searched through all the DF files and came up with these occurrences of the double p version:<br /> :::::* ''&quot;They say _qgfriend_ is a very pleasant and charming =qgfriend_, who is also a daedra-worshipper.ÿ_qgfriend_ is rumored to be Peryite's slave in %reg. Peryite is the Daedra of Pestilence and Plague.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;Sanguine is an enemy none should have. You won't regret this, %pcf, provided you fulfill your end of our agreement. This sanctimonius monk is not harmless; =monster_ is %g3 name and %g burned my lovely worshippers to crisps.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;The Dark Brotherhood is a very mysterious organization, often hired as assassins by the more pragmatic rulers. They have a reputation as maniacs and daedra worshippers, but they must be doing something right. They've been around for thousands of years.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;That's the temple devoted to Arkay, the God of Birth and Death.ÿThe Order of Arkay is a temple for worshippers of the God of the Cycle of Birth and Death. Any temple dedicated to Zenithar, the God of Work and Commerce, is called a Resolution of Zenithar or a Resolution of Zen.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;Even those people without children of age go to pray for the wisdom and benevolence of the clergy. Riglametha is celebrated on the twelfth of Hearth Fire every year in Lainlyn as a celebration of Lainlyns many blessings. Pageants are held on such themes as the Ghraewaj, when the daedra worshippers in Lainlyn were changed to harpies for their blasphemy.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;On the 8th of Suns Dusk, the Bretons of Glenumbra Moors hold the Moon Festival, a joyous holiday in honor of Secunda, goddess of the moon. Although the goddess has no active worshippers, the traditional celebration has continued through the ages as a time of feasting and merriment.&quot;''<br /> :::::* ''&quot;Worshippers know better than to expect this philanthropy, but they arrive in a macabre procession with the recently deceased nevertheless. when ale flows free in all the taverns in all the cities of Tamriel.ÿthe biggest party of the year!ÿa huge drunken orgy ....&quot;''<br /> :::::* There are also &quot;pp&quot;s in [[Lore:Ghraewaj|Ghraewaj]], [[Lore:The Brothers of Darkness|The Brothers of Darkness]], [[Lore:An Overview of Gods And Worship|An Overview of Gods And Worship]], [[Lore:Ius, Animal God|Ius, Animal God]], [[Lore:Invocation of Azura|Invocation of Azura]], and [[Lore:King Edward, Part XII|King Edward, Part XII]] (&amp;times;11).<br /> :::::I think you're safe changing anything else. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:36, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{outdent}} I think I'm finished. I haven't changed any of the unofficial mod articles, and I've added sic tags to any in-game source using the single 'P' spelling that I've come across. One thing that's puzzling me is the ''Overview of Gods and Worship'' book. It seems to use both spellings, so I don't know if that's an error from Bethesda or from an editor. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 11:47, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Great work! I just checked that book and both spellings are definitely used. Typical - we worry about consistency and Beth can't be consistent even in the same book! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:41, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Yeah. Good job. I searched the CS for the one-p spellings and put in a couple sic tags last night. The ''Overview of Gods and Worship'' one is a funny one, having both spellings. I figure it is either a misspelling by the game writers, or a roleplay indicator that spelling was not important at the time the book was written. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 15:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Monobook.js ==<br /> <br /> For some reason, I can't patrol [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Gez/monobook.js&amp;curid=69232&amp;diff=645618&amp;oldid=419153&amp;rcid=670010 this edit], which is marked as unpatrolled on the recent changes page. According to the patrol log it wasn't already patrolled. So, is this normal? --[[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:18, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It's a bit of an oddity with the patrol code. Only admins can patrol edits to users' Javascript pages. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Same with me when I was trying to patrol some edits at Emoboy64's monobook page. Nothing abnormal I suppose. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 14:02, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == SKYRIM! ==<br /> <br /> Hi guys youve semi locked the skyrim page however from the screenshots given on http://www.elderscrolls.com/skyrim/media/ a lot of information can be gathered like the 7 schools of magic (enchanting is BACK!) ect, some should update the page {{unsigned|Calcal|26 February 2011}}<br /> <br /> ===New Articles===<br /> <br /> Please could an admin create the following (that I'm not going to link in case the answer is &quot;no&quot; in order not to create wanted links):<br /> * Skyrim:Development Team<br /> * Skyrim:Concept Art<br /> * One that I don't have a title for but would be something like &quot;Pre-Release Content&quot; for in-game pictures and video.<br /> I believe I have enough content for all three (the last two are pretty easy!). If you'd prefer I sandbox first and let you move, please let me know.<br /> <br /> At the moment, I'd vote against unprotecting the whole namespace. The guesswork already taking place on pages like [[Oblivion:Esbern]] would suggest that a page containing &quot;He may of been in knight of teh nine&quot; would appear fairly quickly. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:01, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Your wish is my command. Two minutes... --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:22, 26 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spammer ==<br /> <br /> [[User talk:FrikaNons]] is a spammer --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 18:19, 28 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Got it. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:28, 28 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vandal ==<br /> <br /> This [[Special:Contributions/77.97.57.76|Anon]] has now repeatedly vandalized the [[Oblivion:Vampirism|Oblivion Vampirisim]] page even after being I warned it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:13, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Done. Do me a favor, though - instead of the trendy edit summary &quot;rv&quot;, please state the problem instead - much easier to spot. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:18, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::What do you mean, I don't think I have ever used &quot;rv&quot; as an edit summary? [[User:DKong27|DKong27]] undid the most recent one, with rv I might add. Would you prefer me to specify the specific form of vandalism for now on (which would be nonsense in this case correct?) or was this aimed at DKong? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:25, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::: Nothing personal; I'm aware who reverted the last edit, but it is merely a request for everyone, so we can avoid clogging up this page with reminders. Don't get me wrong, it is very useful when these things are mentioned (especially when there are no admins around), but more precise edit summaries would be helpful. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:29, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::::Ah, okay then I'll try to be more precise with my edit summaries for now on. Thanks for the help. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:31, 3 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Captcha Whitelist ==<br /> <br /> A link to the forums has just been added to the Welcome message template following [[UESPWiki_talk:Messages/Welcome#New_addition_to_welcome_message?|this]] discussion, but now using the template requires non-patrollers to pass a captcha check, which is pretty annoying.<br /> <br /> Please would an admin add:<br /> &lt;pre&gt;<br /> forums\.uesp\.net<br /> &lt;/pre&gt;<br /> to [[MediaWiki:Captcha-addurl-whitelist|this]] list? I don't see any reason why links to our own forums should be restricted after all. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:45, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Me neither. Try now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 15:48, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::*If you prefer to discuss Elder Scrolls related topics with other users, without the expectations of a wiki to worry about, see our [http://forums.uesp.net/ Forums].<br /> ::Testing it here. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:52, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::Edit: Didn't need to do a captcha test so I assume it works. Thanks Krusty! --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:54, 6 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == CSS Format Tweak ==<br /> <br /> In [[MediaWiki:Common.css|this]] page, please could an admin delete the &quot;margin-bottom: -0.5em;&quot; line from the &quot;table.wikitable caption&quot; definition? It's been bugging me for a while now: it causes table captions to overlap the table on pages like [[Daggerfall:Apothecaries of Stendarr|this]]. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:20, 8 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : All done! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 17:23, 8 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> :: Better, thanks! If people can't see the change, do a hard-refresh to force a reload of the CSS. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:24, 8 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Troublesome Anon ==<br /> <br /> I gave an IP a warning (seen [[User talk:70.116.88.174|here]]) after five nonsense edits to talk pages. However than a different [[http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Contributions/46.176.250.116 IP]] arrived and removed my warning. I honestly do not know what is the appropriate action at this point is so I'll rely on the administrators experience in this situation. I'll ignore this issue as I've already voiced my opinion on giving the warning. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Contribs]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Email]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Since the edits seem to have been made in good faith, just with a lack of understanding of what a wiki is about, I've changed the official warning to a friendly warning that's more specific to the anon's edits. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:27, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I chose to wait and see if any more trouble came our way from the anon, and it died out, as usual. I agree with RH70 at the same time; the additions may have triggered all the &quot;nonsense&quot;-alerts, but in theory it was more experimental than anything else. Just remember this; when you are at the beginning of an edit war it is sometimes useful to take a deep breath and wait - simply because anons like that tend to lose interest fairly quickly - and then you can revert everything in peace, without them even knowing it. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:52, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yeah I should of assumed good faith. I need to spend more times on the forums to get used to there style (which is what this was closer to on reflection). Sorry for bringing this up here, I'll try to use the notices more often. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Contribs]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Email]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:00, 13 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Rename Request ==<br /> <br /> Please could an admin do [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Piercethetruth&amp;curid=36428&amp;diff=650005&amp;oldid=650003 this]? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:20, 15 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 06:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Obvious Vandal ==<br /> <br /> User [[User:Snedward| Snedward]], has vandalized a good 5 or 6 pages now. Sometimes he removes his own obscenties, sometimes he doesn't. Either way, he isn't here to help. [[User:Western3589|Western3589]] 04:45, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I would like to second that, now that he has vandalized my [[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy&amp;curid=91122&amp;diff=650116&amp;oldid=650090 user page]] after I simply gave him some [[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Snedward&amp;curid=92384&amp;diff=650108&amp;oldid=650106 polite advice]] it is obvious he does not want to help the wiki. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:49, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :And [[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy&amp;curid=91122&amp;diff=650124&amp;oldid=650118 again]], he clearly is not going to stop until he is blocked. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:50, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 06:37, 16 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Failed protection of Lore:Skyrim? ==<br /> <br /> After a recent string on nonsense edits from an anon to this [[Lore:Skyrim|page]] it seems clear that the semi-protection on the page is not working. Can someone look into this? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:49, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Just a note: the semi-protection actually expired on December 26. Do we want to extend all the Skyrim protections until release date (or maybe even later)? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:51, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Re-adding SP to Lore:Skyrim is probably a good idea for now. At some point we'll have to have the debate about what to do come 11/11/11 but there are still a few things up in the air on that topic. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:58, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: We might as well SP the Lore page as well - when an anon realize that the official Skyrim:Skyrim page is SP'd, he/she will naturally turn to the other page. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:21, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Anon vandal ==<br /> <br /> This [[Special:Contributions/71.234.122.155|IP]] has inserted nonsense into several pages now, even after being warned. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:08, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : I can see two edits and a nonsensical response to the warning. I'll keep an eye out. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:22, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::Okay, to save me the trouble of reporting IP's or users to early when should I note them here? After four, five nonsense edits? Or if he/she branches out into more offensive forms of nonsense such as personally attacking other users? Or is this more of a judgment call kind of thing?--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:26, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::: There's no harm done in reporting it here; however, it is kind of normal for these people to add a few nonsense edits, receive a warning, then complain in some way - and then disappear. Always wait a few minutes after handing out a warning and if the nonsense continues, report it here. It IS a matter of judgment, although it can be a hrad task sometimes. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:33, 18 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Main Page edit request ==<br /> <br /> At the moment we have a link at the bottom right of the [[:Main Page|Main Page]] to &quot;Newest Articles&quot;. The trouble is that with our namespace structure it doesn't work because the default link only shows new articles in mainspace, where almost nothing ever happens. Although this ''could'' be changed to show all namespaces (&lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot;&gt;[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ANewPages&amp;namespace=all&amp;username= like this]&lt;/span&gt;), that would include every new talk page and user page, which is also undesirable. My suggestion is that since the link appears at the bottom of the &quot;Did you know...&quot; section, that the link should point to [[:Main Page/Did You Know|this page]], with a link text of &quot;More facts...&quot; (or something like that - note that the &quot;...&quot; is for consistency with the other two main page links). Any objections? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:50, 29 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> : I've been puzzled about that empty link for the longest time - and you're right, it's pointless as it is now. I'll see what I can do - more facts are funnier than an empty page! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:54, 29 March 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protecting Archives ==<br /> <br /> [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Archive/AN_Registered_Spammers&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=655665 This] recent spam edit reminded me of a thought I had a while back. Can we semi-protect the archives? There is no reason anons should edit these pages and they are frequent targets for spam bots for some reason. This would be a good way to stop spam or nonsense edits to archives. It would also stop some confused editors from adding questions to archives (A somewhat frequent event) saving us the trouble of moving them to the proper talk page. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:54, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I suggested that [[UESPWiki:Archive/AN Archive Protection|here]] (okay, I was suggesting full protection, but the basic arguments still apply). Semi-protection might be a better idea and I'm certainly in favour of it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:00, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Having reviewed the arguments provided by the admins that responded to the topic that Rpeh linked I'll add this as well. By Semi-Protecting archives we allow for those instances of a topic that needs to be readdressed, and we also will stop the vandalism to those pages which means that it does fall under our [[UESPWiki:Protection Policy|Protection Policy]]. I also wish to say that since nearly every edit to an archive is wrong, since generally speaking only maintenance editing is allowed for archive pages there is no reason not to semi-protect archives. Anons and new users are less likely to know how to perform maintenance than Auto-confirmed users. Though it does create more work for the Admins it shouldn't be too much that they would be overwhelmed. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:24, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: That old discussion is hilarious due to the laziness on display. I have been thinking about the Archives for the longest time, as it makes no sense that we allow users to edit them freely then revert all edits anyway. Of course, it will take a long time protecting the existing archives, but it will be worth it. Just say the word. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:41, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I know what you mean... I don't think you're going to want to do the existing ones by hand though: assuming every page that transcludes the {{tl|Archive Header}} template is an archive, there are about 700 of them. It would be easier to ask Daveh to give bots the &lt;code&gt;protect&lt;/code&gt; right and do the first lot like that. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:51, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Well, if they all use the Template, why not add in to the template? Does that work? You could then add another optional parameter for when you want to skip the section. --{{FC|#800000|[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;}} 20:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::There's no way of saying &quot;protect every page that uses this one&quot;. You can do it the other way around - &quot;protect every page that this one uses&quot;, but I don't believe there's any alternative to protecting each page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}If we are going to do this, which it looks like we are going to, we should have the bots do all the heavy lifting and just protect any new ones manually. Seems like the best solution. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:06, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'll ask Daveh to make the necessary change. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 7 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Just as a reminder to myself more than anything, once this is done we should change the message [[MediaWiki:Protectedpagetext|here]] to check for the word &quot;archive&quot; in the title and display a different message directing people to the current talk page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:17, 9 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Request for Adminship ==<br /> <br /> Our Request for Adminship (RfA) process is based on [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Requests_for_adminship|Wikipedia]]'s policy. An editor, when nominated, accepts and answers questions, which can be asked by any registered editor. Votes and comments can also be left by any registered editor. [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] makes the call, based upon the community's consensus, after about a week.<br /> <br /> ===Rpeh===<br /> :{{userlinks|Rpeh}}<br /> <br /> This nomination is overdue by several months, but better late than never. We are facing the UESP’s biggest '''[[Skyrim:Skyrim|challenge]]''' ever and we need all the help and expertise we can get, so this nomination should not come as no surprise. We all know Rpeh as one of the most prolific editors on the UESP; not only because of his unbeatable and incredible '''[[Special:ActiveUsers|amount]]''' of edits, his hard-working and very convenient '''[[User:RoBoT|bot]]''' and his extensive knowledge on nearly all Elder Scrolls games in existence. Additionally, he is the most active patroller on the Wiki and the one people turn to for advice. He knows templates and '''[[Lore:Septim_Dynasty|complex]]''' wiki-markup better than anyone, and he is familiar with all aspects of administrative duties, even the ones I don’t know about. Finally, he enjoys huge respect within the community and with the number ''11.11.11'' in mind I see absolutely no reason not to provide him with the administrative buttons once again. <br /> <br /> ====Questions====<br /> '''Q1''': What do you hope to accomplish as an administrator?<br /> <br /> : Doing things without having to bother the other admins! There have been many cases where I've spotted a problem that only an admin can fix, from text tweaks on the [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] page to adjustments to the [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]]. 21 of the last 25 news stories were writen by me too, but I've always had to send a begging email to Krusty or GK to get them on the front page. This has meant that some things I want to do weren't practical. I want to update some of our CSS / Javascript settings to include some of the innovations used on other wikis such as [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Collapsible_tables collapsible tables], but it would be too risky to start changing those without the ability to change back if something went wrong, and asking an admin to wait around while I test isn't sensible.<br /> <br /> : Other than that, I intend to keep editing and improving the site as much as I can, in preparation for...<br /> <br /> '''Q2''': What do you see as the UESP's main challenges in the near future?<br /> <br /> : Skyrim. From the online buzz I think it's already clear that this will be Bethesda's biggest game so far, which obviously means that it's going to be ''our'' biggest game so far too. There have already been some discussions behind the scenes about how to handle this, and a lot is still up in the air for now, but no matter what happens there's going to be a lot of work for the admins.<br /> <br /> : The challenge is clear enough but worth describing anyway. We have to get a huge amount of information onto the site as quickly as possible while reviewing the contributions of what will be a greater number of editors than any of us has ever seen. It's also important to remember that the new game isn't a job of work - it's a game. We want to allow people to play it instead of having to monitor the wiki all the time. We might end up having to close the wiki to comments for a short time, or close it just to new users. We might need to set up a rota so that there are always people around to keep an eye on the site but leaving enough time for everyone to play the game. We might need to promote several patrollers to admin status for a while to keep an eye on the rush. As I say, there's a lot that might change between now and then but at least we have options.<br /> <br /> '''Q3''': How do you interpret the balance between enforcing policies and being innovative when policies prove to be problematic?<br /> <br /> : This is going to be a frequently-asked question after Skyrim's release. There will probably be dozens of users who break the rules and technically end up deserving a block. It's going to be important to consider what's best for the site in all cases: will blocking the user be better in the long run than posting an explanation on a talk page, for instance.<br /> <br /> : Wikipedia has a very useful, though potentially dangerous, rule: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Ignore_all_rules Ignore All Rules], which states that &quot;If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it.&quot; I think this rule allows policy to be relaxed sometimes if it's sensible. It should never be invoked to punish a user that otherwise didn't deserve a punishment, but reducing or removing a punishment seems like a sensible use. This kind of thing has been used before on acceptable usernames, for instance. I usually advocate ignoring all but the most serious infringements of the username policy to avoid the kind of drama the user wanted to create.<br /> <br /> : In general, if an admin feels that he or she has pushed the edge of a policy, all it takes is a quick post to the Admin Noticeboard explaining the decision. If the others disagree, things can be turned around easily enough.<br /> <br /> '''Q4''': What other wiki-related activities do you perform that people might not know about?<br /> <br /> ''(I added this question after a Real Life friend suggested it - I think it's worth including)''<br /> <br /> : I've spent dozens of hours on our interactive maps. This started with a program to remove the blocks of colour that the construction set adds when it exports the maps, and most recently saw me colouring the water on our maps blue, to replace the ugly, dust-coloured tiles that existed before. Even with the help received from [[User:Killfetzer|Killfetzer]], this was a long job but a really rewarding one.<br /> <br /> : I keep a regular check on several other TES-related wikis to make sure our content isn't being taken without attribution. This happens more often than you might think, and I feel it's important to keep tabs on such activities to ensure our editors get the credit they deserve.<br /> <br /> : I also perform regular checks on our maintenance pages, making sure we don't get too many missing categories, templates, images, and pages.<br /> <br /> : These days I seem to be the only editor on the UESP [http://blog.uesp.net blog]. This isn't a critical part of the UESP site, but some articles get quite a few views and it's part of introducing UESP to a wider community.<br /> <br /> : Answering UESP-related email. This isn't a huge job, and I only get about an email a week (or less), but they often come in groups when an editor wants help on a specific problem. This isn't constrained to inexperienced users: I've had email requests from admins asking for data sets that they can't generate themselves!<br /> <br /> : [[User:RoBoT|RoBoT]] doesn't write itself, and I've spent quite a bit of time writing and rewriting it. I'm currently writing a whole new version to lose dependence on the rather outdated DotNetWiki framework. It's looking good at the moment!<br /> <br /> : There are probably other things I do, but that's a good enough selection for now.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> Cast votes with '''Support''', '''Oppose''', or '''Neutral'''. '''Comment'''s are also welcome.<br /> *'''Support''': As nominator. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 15:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is one of the best editors around. Not really anything else to say here, he simply is. As he is one of our most active users with past administrator experience, and the admiration of many of the sites users it seems foolish of us not to give him admin powers. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh knows his stuff, and has definitely earned an admin position through his diligence and hard work on the wiki.--[[User:Pwnageincarnate|Pwnageincarnate]] 16:27, 10 April 2011 (UTC)Pwnageincarnate<br /> *'''Support''': The amount of work he does on the wiki is phenomenal. He is often one to make decisive judgement on tricky matters, and his opinions are always sound. And, as AKB said, he had past adminship so there's not much chance of him being unqualified. This request seems like a no-brainer to me. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 16:29, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': He's done more work on this wiki than I can possibly imagine doing. Good Luck.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:34, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is one of the most qualified editors around and he knows his stuff better than almost anyone. He's worked his ass off so much for this site I can't see why he shouldn't be given the extra buttons he is best placed to tinker about with. But most importantly, he was my trust and respect; it's a definite &quot;support&quot; from me :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:01, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Oppose''': Rpeh was [[User:Rpeh/RfA|previously an admin]]. He was de-admined (or rather he voluntarily gave up his admin position just a step ahead of having it removed from him) because he engaged in [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_13#Rpeh.2C_De-Admin_Request|sock-puppetry]]. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 21:19, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> **''Alleged'', never proven and always inaccurate. Good to see you again after your long break, Wrye. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ***''Proven''. See Nephele's excellent summary in the block starting with &quot;The evidence that Calliope and rpeh were simultaneously editing from the same location is, unfortunately, unambiguous.&quot; And, although I found it very surprising that rpeh had done something so extreme, I unfortunately did not find it out of character.&lt;br&gt;Given such a gross violation of wiki standards, I find it unfortunate that rpeh is a noted editor here. Be that as it may, he absolutely should not be given admin status again. (Is he prolific? Absolutely. But thats not enough -- an admin has to be trustworthy and follow community standards as well.)&lt;br&gt;Since I'm retired from the ES community, I probably won't have much further to say on the issue. The past evidence is clear and was well aired in the original [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_13#Rpeh.2C_De-Admin_Request|De-Admin Request]]. One can also look at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Sock_puppetry Sock puppetry] page on Wikipedia for a review of why sock puppets are forbidden. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 22:36, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> **'''Question''': Can any one vote here? [[Special:Contributions/94.76.208.5|94.76.208.5]] 21:46, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** '''Answer''': Unfortunately, no. You will have to make an account for the vote to count. See [[UESPWiki:Etiquette#General|this section]]. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:55, 10 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh has done alot of good things on this site much more than any one else. He should defiantly be an admin. [[User:Deanna|Deanna]] 22:07, 10 April 2011 (UTC) (I was the user who asked the question I remembered my password)<br /> *'''Support''': I'm disappointed in the suggestion that any activity, alleged or proven (even activity serious enough to be banned and/or de-adminned for), should result in an automatic &quot;oppose&quot; vote over a year and a half later. Even if you just assume that rpeh ''was'' responsible for the actions he was accused of in the incident noted by [[User:Wrye|Wrye]], that's not what this RfA is about. Rpeh is knowledgeable about various administrative duties that no other active admins are. He maintains areas of the wiki that would be easier to maintain (and therefore better maintained) if he had access to admin tools. From every angle that I can see, granting him Administrator rights could only benefit the wiki. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:11, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** Yes there are actions which should result in a permanent ban from adminship, and sock puppetry is one of them. It's not just the action itself, but also the general attitude that it demonstrates. Wikis are built on respectful, fair, honest, civil discussions. Sockpuppetry is the opposite of all that. That's why it's forbidden.<br /> ** Again this is beyond ''alleged'' -- the proof is very conclusive. See the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_13#Rpeh.2C_De-Admin_Request|De-Admin Request]] for the discussion/review of it. And, although the extremity of sock puppetry was a bit stunning, it did not seem out of character for rpeh, who seemed to have had run ins with all of the other admins at the time.<br /> ** Keeping active admins is important, but more important is having admins who support the core civilty of the wiki. As [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators#Administrator_conduct wikipedia puts it] ''Administrators are expected to lead by example and to behave in a respectful, civil manner in their interactions with others.'' I would hope that we would have some good candidates available, however things do tend to fall into a lull between games, so perhaps UESP will need to be a bit thin for a while. (And yes, UESP has been through periods with very little adminship going on.) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 05:30, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *** Look, Wrye, this is painful to watch. You haven’t made a single edit in a year, yet you make a heroic return in an attempt to [[UESPWiki:Interaction_Ban|provoke]] Rpeh and change the general opinion of the ACTIVE editors on the site. The UESP has changed a lot in your absence and while I expected the return of bitter, “retired” editors for this nomination, this is going nowhere fast. Please stop this [[Special:Contributions/Wrye|unconvincing]] argument and the endless wave of redundant links to old discussions and WP-policies. That type of behavior belongs in a different era, and that era is long gone. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 06:50, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> **** &quot;Era is long gone.&quot; Sadly, that may be true. Reasonable arguments in a discussion such as this should be treated as such -- and not as personal attacks. Part of the point of an Rfa is bring up possible objections; i.e. to allow people to vote ''oppose'' as well as ''support'', and to state the reasons for that. A previous de-adminship is obviously germane; bringing it up does not require a &quot;heroic&quot; effort, nor should it be &quot;painful to watch&quot;; nor does it indicate &quot;bitterness&quot; nor an attempt to &quot;provoke&quot;. Charactering reasonable and relevant arguments as an emotional attack was not previously the norm. If it is now the norm, then yes, things have changed. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 03:40, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ***** Of course you are allowed to voice your opinion, and are allowed to vote however you choose. However it is almost impossible to say this isn't emotional or an attempt to provoke an argument considering this is you first edit in over a year. Once again there is no problem with an editor going inactive, though it is sad. But it makes it seem like you are trying to start a fight when this is how you come out of retirement(Besides a reply to your talk page). Whether the allegations of Rpeh's sockpuppetry are true are not, they simply are not relevant after so long and thousands of edits without any warnings or bans. His record has been perfect since then and pretty much all active editors have an extremely high opinion of him. It borders the ridiculous to say that you can't trust an editor with more privileges after so long and so much effort.<br /> *****To quote you ''Is he prolific? Absolutely. But thats not enough -- an admin has to be trustworthy and follow community standards as well.''<br /> *****If anything he has raised the communities standards after all his effort and quality edits, and he has many editors absolute trust. His regular activity is just the icing on the cake. Simply put Rpeh is a great editor with the communities trust. All we are doing by giving him Admin abilities is by allowing him to help maintain the site, and do tasks that he has been doing by proxy of the current admins. In my opinion when it reaches the point when we are making less work for everyone involved by giving an editor more powers than they deserve them. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:27, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh has no doubtable made his mark on the wiki. He has helped me on several occasions, as well as so many other users, and does so much to help the wiki, such as the ONPCRP and the recently completed MQRP. To be honest, I was surprised when I found out rpeh wasn't an admin already. Being an admin, rpeh will be more of a help than he is already. Needless to say, thanks rpeh and keep it up! - [[User:Emoboy64|Emoboy64]] 21:53, 11 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Nothing to add that hasn't been said, but I've been waiting a long time to cast this vote. &lt;small&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;border:1px solid black;padding:1px;background:#FFF;&quot;&gt;[[User:Viroconium|&lt;font style=&quot;color:white;background:#8FBC8F;&quot;&gt;'''&amp;nbsp;VIROCONIUM&amp;nbsp;'''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 01:09, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Oppose''': While his content editing is excellent, Rpeh is simply not someone I feel has the temperament to be an Administrator, nor is he someone I feel I could ever trust with the rights that Administrators and CheckUsers have. In addition to the reasons cited by Wrye, rpeh has been single-handedly responsible for the departure of the four most prolific users on the site other than himself (yes, I'm including myself in that) as well as several other less-prolific users due to his incivility and bullying (e.g., [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_21#A_Little_Less_Conversation.2C_a_Little_More_Action|A Little Less Conversation, a Little More Action]]). The fact that the current set of Administrators not only look the other way when he is uncivil, but actively make excuses for him because of how prolific he is, only makes the situation worse. Like Wrye, I feel the atmosphere here has changed significantly since I first joined, particularly when people who vote Oppose are asked to stop making a fuss. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:54, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** The idea that I'm personally responsible for people leaving is one of UESP's own [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Point_refuted_a_thousand_times PRATTs] - a Point Refuted A Thousand Times. If you left because of me, then that's obviously your right, but don't presume to assign motives to other people.<br /> ** I didn't say anything uncivil or bullying in that thread, and the only time I can remember being less than polite was to one particular user, where there was deep mutual hostility. I'm sure you know who I mean. Personally, the way you kept bringing up cases on the Admin Noticeboard for every perceived infraction on my part was far closer to bullying than anything I've done.<br /> ** As for the changed atmosphere caused by &quot;people who vote Oppose are asked to stop making a fuss&quot; point, it's demonstrably wrong. One of Nephele's [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/De-Adminship_Request#Nephele.27s_Opinion|specific points]] against Aristeo in Feb 2007 was &quot;Opposing Lurlock's nomination to be admin&quot;.<br /> ** I don't mind people voting against me, but I do find it distinctly odd that a self-confessed &quot;retired&quot; user and someone claims to have left the site both feel the need to come back purely to make a vote. If you've left, leave. Coming back to stir up trouble isn't appreciated. That's the point being made here, and one with which I fully concur. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:50, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is by far one of the best , and due to Skyrim coming out , he will be needed more than ever. [[User:JackTurbo95|JackTurbo95]] 09:08, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Neutral''': I feel as a fellow Patroller I should put in my voice. In my time on the wiki I have never seen Rpeh act in a way that I feel is inappropriate. He has been overall helpful to me and to other uses to whom he has assisted. He has also done much to help the site overall, as seen by the many projects he has started and/or participated in. That said, the past does have a way of coming back. Looking through some of the links, it is very clear that he has made some definite enemies over the years. Personally, I found any evidence to be too subjective to play entirely into the decision here, but doubt is a powerful feeling. I feel that as I had not been part of the community during the earlier conflicts that I can not give a full opinion. I just ask everyone to consider this: If the roles were reversed, would you want your past actions to decide your entire future? Please be civil and respectful. Hate and assault is a vicious circle of defeat. --{{FC|#800000|[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;}} 15:14, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> ** I've spent some time wondering whether I should reply to this and eventually decided &quot;yes&quot;. &quot;Enemies&quot; is a very, very strong word, and having thought about it, I don't believe I have any here - from my point of view. If people want to regard me as their personal nemesis, that's entirely down to them. There aren't even that many people who I would ''never'' want to see on the site again. The only examples that spring to mind are [[User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God]], [[User:Xbox]] and [[User:Benny220]]. I'm not going to re-hash the stories for those three now but feel free to look through their contributions for the reasons why. Have I had disputes with other people? Yes. Several. But they were entirely necessary. Take [[UESPWiki:Archive/AN Archive Protection|this]], for instance, where I refrained from argument and let three other admins exhibit what a later one called &quot;laziness&quot;. Take the dispute over Lore sources, where I was later described as the only person who came out of the debate with a coherent position.<br /> ** People have accused me of being divisive. Maybe. But when I have an idea, I ask people about it before going ahead and implementing it. Where is the discussion that Wrye held before deciding to host documentation for his personal mods on this site? Where is the discussion that Lurlock initiated before introducing icons to the Morrowind NPC template, an action that was widely hated at the time, but which was kept quiet because nobody wanted trouble? There are several people who have attempted to re-mould UESP to their own vision without consulting the community, and I have always fought that. I WILL ALWAYS fight that.<br /> ** In my [[User:Rpeh/RfA|first RfA]] I described one of UESP's biggest challenges to be keeping the community we had. I have done my bit. Let anybody stand here and tell me otherwise. I've given praise to new editors while guiding their efforts to improve them. I've chased after previously-active editors who have disappeared. I've started new projects so people can easily find things to do, and helped them along when they've started to take part.<br /> ** What - and this is a serious challenge - what have my so-called enemies done in comparison? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': Rpeh is in my opinion, probably the best editor on this website. He has done ​​nearly 70,000 edits on the wiki, which is far more than anyone else. If we give him adminship he will just be able to get even more work done. I've not been here for to long, but from what I've seen, he's more than a worthy administrator. So i clearly support! --[[User:Archain|Archain]] 20:24, 12 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': I've been gone for some time now, and I hope my vote shows a more respectful and less vindictive tone. It is obvious that rpeh and myself have not gotten along for quite some time. We ha&lt;tt&gt;(d|ve)&lt;/tt&gt; differing views on how a wiki should run: I wished for a fast paced wiki where it can evolve faster, where decisions can be quick when necessary, and where votes were thrown out the window. Rpeh always wished for the old style ''consensus'' gathering. People may attack either of our personalities as reasons to hate us, but we both wanted to better the wiki, no doubt. I think rpeh got frustrated too easily, while I got impatient too easily. I typically understood where rpeh came from, but there are some things I stood firm on, which caused friction. Rpeh is notorious for lambasting editors, and it is something that I don't expect to change. It's who he is; however, I've come to understand that he means well. Rpeh, if you do become an administrator, I hope you do see that it is faith instilled in you not only by newer people who barely know you, but by people who know exactly who you are and how you think (we also know how the AWOL administrators think). I am willing to take that gamble because the wiki can get more out of you as an administrator. We can all believe what we want to about the fiasco that happened well over a year ago, but it doesn't really mean much now. You shouldn't be forced to wear that as some scarlet letter. '''''[[User:Elliot|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#002BB8;&quot;&gt;Elliot&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User_talk:Elliot|&lt;small&gt;(&lt;span style=&quot;color:#002BB8;&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;)&lt;/small&gt;]]''''' 04:04, 13 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support''': GK and Krusty both voiced my own thoughts on the issue. What happened a while back really is a long while back; almost the entire userbase has changed. Back then rpeh had also raised his own regret at involving himself too much with administrative duties relative to &quot;normal&quot; editing, something he is himself fully aware of, which I now believe won't happen again. &lt;br /&gt;Admittely, I have been editing less frequent this year, something I do intend to correct with the approaching release of Skyrim! Yes rpeh tends to be less diplomatic at times than I would prefer myself (in which he wouldn't be the only admin) but on the other hand he does document most what he is doing. In other words, every administrator has its stronger and weaker qualities. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:25, 14 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''': I've read some interesting things here. I was at first surprised Rpeh wasn't an admin, but I didn't know he was one before. In any case, as many other have said, Rpeh has done a LOT of work, and he's still going at it like it's nothing. However, despite not being here for so long, I've seen some strange disputes with Rpeh and other users. I won't bother looking for an example, I don't really need to prove anything I'm sure. My conclusion, as to what I've seen on the site and read here, is simply that Rpeh has a short fuse and has the urge to critisize other users, as if he's feeling he's more important than the other editors. I've asked for his help several times during my own work, like the Golden Saint page, but I was always a bit scared to, because I didn't know if he was going to give an angry response (though he never did and helped out well). I've never had a dispute with him anyhow, and I'm not planning on having disputes at all, with anyone. I just wanted to say that, the past is the past, and we should give Rpeh another chance, especially because he does a lot of work. But I would advise, with all due respect, try to stay calm, whatever the situation. What you contribute is appreciated, that goes to all editors, how small the contribution is, but the atmosphere is at least just as important. Also, you sound as if you are forced to work on the site, while you should choose to do so, you're not responsible for the site, if you keep that in mind I think you'll be fine :) ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 15:57, 14 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''' &amp;ndash; I've been waiting for this. I recommend reading all of the fancier comments above mine. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 03:40, 15 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Potential Multi Account Vandal ==<br /> <br /> Earlier a user called [[Special:Contributions/W00d_elf|W00d elf]] started vandalizing the [[Lore:Redguard]] page until he or she was blocked. Just a minute ago another new user called [[Special:Contributions/Negro_bob|Negro bob]], after registering proceeded to vandalize the Redguard page in virtually the same way W00d elf did. It seems clear to me that W00d elf is bypassing his ban with a sockpuppet to continue to vandalize. Just wanted to put this here so the admins can keep an eye out for this guy. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:41, 13 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Multiple IP Confusion ==<br /> <br /> Several IP anons have been posting around claiming that they have been warned or blocked. See [[User talk:Wolok gro-Barok#I_was_falsely_accused.|User talk:Wolok gro-Barok]] and [[User talk:Rpeh#Vandalism|User talk:Rpeh]]. The Anons have blank talk pages with no curious edits to be seen. --{{FC|#800000|[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;}} 23:52, 14 April 2011 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Corevette789&diff=657329 2011-04-15T03:35:32Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* RE: */ new section</p> <hr /> <div>&lt;div style=&quot;position:fixed; right:0; background-color:grey; padding:.5em; border:.1em solid Black; border-right:none;<br /> -moz-border-radius-topleft:1.3em;<br /> -moz-border-radius-bottomleft:1.3em;<br /> -webkit-border-top-left-radius:1.3em;<br /> -webkit-border-bottom-left-radius:1.3em;<br /> border-top-left-radius:1.3em;<br /> border-bottom-left-radius:1.3em;<br /> -o-box-shadow: 0 0 .8em #888;<br /> -icab-box-shadow: 0 0 .8em #888;<br /> -khtml-box-shadow: 0 0 .8em #888;<br /> -moz-box-shadow: 0 0 .8em #888;<br /> -webkit-box-shadow: 0 0 .8em #888;<br /> box-shadow: 0 0 .8em #888;&quot;&gt;&lt;span class=&quot;plainlinks&quot; title=&quot;New section&quot;&gt;[{{fullurl:{{FULLPAGENAMEE}}|action=edit&amp;section=new}} &lt;font color=LawnGreen&gt;This is a Happy Zone ~no stupid shit~&lt;/font color&gt;]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/div&gt;<br /> <br /> <br /> == Happy Zone ==<br /> <br /> I approve. It looks pretty good. --[[User:Timmeh|Tim]] &lt;sup&gt; [[User_Talk:Timmeh|Talk]] &lt;/sup&gt; 23:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Thanks! It is a little hard to read, I think a text-color change is in order...as well as archiving--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 23:14, 27 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Cookie ==<br /> <br /> {{cookie|message=You've been doing a lot of good stuff cleaning up after people lately so it's definitely time you had a nice tasty treat to enjoy. Plus your user page was obviously designed by a real expert in the field ;) Keep up the good work! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:23, 31 May 2010 (UTC)}}<br /> <br /> :Thanks! This is my third one, and I credited you too! And I'll be sure to stick around.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 22:26, 31 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> ==Batman!==<br /> Na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, na, Batman! [[Special:Contributions/80.239.147.18|80.239.147.18]] 00:35, 1 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Woo!--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 00:37, 1 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Good Luck! ==<br /> <br /> Good luck on your finals tomorrow! God knows (and so do I) that they are pains in the donkey. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 01:15, 15 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Thanks! To you also. Well lucky me I have a blowoff class in the morning then the dreaded Math. I had a 86 the first quarter...the second I had a 68...--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 01:24, 15 June 2010 (UTC) <br /> ::Good luck!!!--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:30, 15 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :congaregeyoulations on your test exzams eyc.!--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 21:27, 15 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Congratulations on failing to fail! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Lol Math was not my strong suit but it was actually short and easy.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 03:03, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Black Horse Courier ==<br /> <br /> Great work on both filling out the content and revamping the tables on the {{Pl|Oblivion:Black_Horse_Courier|Black Horse Courier|diff=579923&amp;oldid=559925}} article! I'm just curious why you have it separated into two tables, though. Was that intended to be a side-by-side layout? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 16:22, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :It's like you're in IRC at all times! Yes, I was but I am stumped as to how.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:26, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Hahaha...I'm not there ''quite'' that often! All you missed for the side-by-side was adding a | in between the two columns of the outer table. With that in place, with fixed column widths of the inner tables became irrelevant, so I removed those too. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:19, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Allright, got the Diffs and I see what you did there. Thanks for the help!--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 18:34, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> oh god i hope I don't break something core D: - where<br /> <br /> == Cookie! ==<br /> <br /> {{cookie|message=You definitely deserve a treat for the really helpful [[Oblivion:Black_Horse_Courier#People|addition]] to the [[Oblivion:Black Horse Courier|Black Horse Courier]] page. Not only is it nice to get a complete listing of all the NPCs affected by the Unfinished Quest, it will also help out tremendously when writing IC pages for the ONPCRP. Keep up the good work! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:35, 16 June 2010 (UTC)}}<br /> :Thanks! These seem to be getting more frequent. I still need to have the Camp thing checked out by GK.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:37, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I seem to have missed something here. What's the Camp thing?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; text-shadow:grey 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 18:13, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Oh, it was just an idea Krusty had a while ago.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 18:28, 16 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> <br /> == Congrats! ==<br /> <br /> {{Gold Star|message=Welcome to the team and congratulations on your record-breaking number of Support-votes. Now get to work! :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:43, 16 July 2010 (UTC)}}<br /> <br /> :Great job Corevette! It's great to have you on-board and don't get scared by the large number of red !s appearing on RC xD --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:59, 16 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::hey! congratulations!--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 14:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Congrats. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 14:29, 16 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I about passed out when I saw those. I have a race later on today, so my first day is limited :( I will do some patrolling...I love saying that now.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 15:49, 16 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Congratulations, and welcome to Patrollership! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 16 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> {{Golden Penny Racer|message=Hope this helps with the race :D--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:32, 16 July 2010 (UTC)}}<br /> <br /> :Congratulations! I know how hard you worked for this; I only hope you don't regret it now! &lt;tt&gt;;)&lt;/tt&gt; --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:27, 18 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Of course not! I love how useful the Exclamation marks are, and patrolling is kinda almost fun :D--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 15:30, 18 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Hey! Congratulations! You certainly earned it! --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Congrats from me too! Looks like I'll be joining the fray soon. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 21:46, 18 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == arena ==<br /> <br /> I am at the final battle in Warrior class. I am having a tough time defeating the female orc with the glass hammer. How do i defeat her. I am level four.<br /> :See, she changes with your level so she will always be as hard as she is now. I would recommend getting a stronger weapon, or giving it a strong enchantment from a Sigil Stone.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 03:47, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == IP's needing blocking for TOR ==<br /> <br /> [[Special:Contributions/38.108.125.196|38.108.125.196]] 22:59, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> [[Special:Contributions/208.53.142.39|208.53.142.39]] 23:02, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> [[Special:Contributions/216.86.61.205|216.86.61.205]] 23:08, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Errr... Huh? ==<br /> <br /> What exactly does &quot;Logic invalid. I'm on a horse.&quot; mean?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:23, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Heh, it was obvious trolling and Elliot falsely accused of edit warring. Its a popular commercial meme thing.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 21:33, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I'm not sure about the &quot;logic invalid&quot; part, but the &quot;horse&quot; part was referring to Elliot telling me to get off my high horse. Core said in chat that &quot;I'm on a horse&quot; is from an Old Spice commercial...I'm guessing this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owGykVbfgUE. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::shut up, RH, get on my horse &lt;.&lt; •[[User:Atreus|A]][[User_Talk:Atreus|t]][[Special:Contributions/Atreus|r]][[Special:Emailuser/Atreus|e]][[User:Peregrine|u]][http://atreus.necrolounge.org/ s]• 21:56, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Ummm...yeah.... :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:18, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Dummy Message ==<br /> <br /> Dummy message for Core to test if his &quot;New message thing&quot; is working or not. ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:13, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Creating Account When Logged In ==<br /> <br /> It's [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=newusers&amp;user=Rpeh&amp;page=&amp;year=&amp;month=-1 easy enough]. Make sure you're logged in then go to [[Special:UserLogin]] and click &quot;Create an account&quot;. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:54, 10 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Active ==<br /> <br /> Hey there! I was wondering, would you mind if I moved your name at [[UESPWiki:Patrollers|Patrollers]] to Semi-Active? Your activity has fallen a lot lately. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 10 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Not at all, its true and I admit it. I'm surprised it's not already there.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 14:17, 14 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Done. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 14:20, 14 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == unoficial oblivion mods ==<br /> <br /> hey, i was looking for some oblvion mods and i went to the pcs top 10 essencial mods and i startedmdownloading them. everithing was fine until i downloaded and installed Darnified UI and when i started playing my character lvl was reset all was reset how was at the beggining of the game and the maps all looked transparent. i uninstalled the mod but when i loded it again it said oblivion had stop working. please help.<br /> :It seems you had some type of conflict going on, I would have no idea how to fix this...using Mods makes the game very unstable, and is usually advised gainst because of the numerous glitches that will form.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 19:07, 1 January 2011 (UTC) <br /> ::Well, not all mods. It helps if there's a published list of conflicts. I believe this one has a history of conflicts with one of the combat mods though.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 13:37, 2 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Mentorship...? ==<br /> <br /> Hello Corevette,<br /> <br /> Saw you on the list of mentors, and I was wondering if you could mentor me. Obviously if you're busy I can find someone else, but if not, would you mind teaching me the ropes? Thanks, [[User:Linara|Nell]] 06:42, 19 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Happy Birthday! ==<br /> <br /> 16...wow! That lets you drive here in Canada. Does it get you anything special in the States (or your state in particular)? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:46, 13 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Yep, driving here too. The only thing is that this is a sunday...and the DMV/Secretary of State is closed -.- --&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 03:07, 14 February 2011 (UTC) <br /> ::Happy Birthday!--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:48, 14 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Your page's layout ==<br /> <br /> Hi,<br /> <br /> Could I please uh.. ''borrow'' your page's layout and modify it a fair bit for my own page? Thanks in advance. - [[User:UnrealFragger|UnrealFragger]] 14:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> :Lol, seeing as I stole it from someone who stole it? Feel free to make it your own too. (I feel obligated to credit [[user:rpeh|rpeh]] for it) and you can change hex codes there to change the colors for it too, placing pictures on the sidebars, it's limitless.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 15:40, 8 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> :: Lol, thanks - [[User:UnrealFragger|UnrealFragger]] 16:11, 8 April 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RE: ==<br /> <br /> I left a message on your Wikipedia user talk page. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 03:35, 15 April 2011 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Michaeldsuarez&diff=639921 2011-02-04T02:42:00Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: Clearing.</p> <hr /> <div>&lt;div class=&quot;usermessage&quot; style=&quot;-moz-border-radius:.5em; text-align:center; border-width:1px; padding:.2em;&quot;&gt;'''Hi, I'm Michaeldsuarez. If you have any problems, comments, or anything else you want to say, feel free to tell me on [[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|my talk page]]. However, please be aware that I'm not active here anymore; I work on and administrate certain wikis outside of UESP.'''&lt;/div&gt;</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&diff=639919 2011-02-04T02:39:39Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Cephorus who? */ That wasn't the emoticon I was looking for.</p> <hr /> <div>{{DISPLAYTITLE:user talk:rpeh}}<br /> {| class=&quot;compress&quot; style=&quot;float:right; background-color: #ddddff; border:solid 3px #9999cc; margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> |-valign=&quot;top&quot;<br /> |__TOC__<br /> |<br /> {|class=&quot;wikitable compress&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> !colspan=5|Archive<br /> |-<br /> |colspan=5 style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |[[User:Rpeh/Cookies|Cookies]] : [[User_talk:Rpeh/Warnings|Warnings]]<br /> |-<br /> !'07||'08||'09||'10||'11<br /> |-<br /> |Jan<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200801|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200901|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201001|Jan]]<br /> |Jan<br /> |-<br /> |Feb<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200802|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200902|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201002|Feb]]<br /> |Feb<br /> |-<br /> |Mar<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200803|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200903|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201003|Mar]]<br /> |Mar<br /> |-<br /> |Apr<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200804|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200904|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201004|Apr]]<br /> |Apr<br /> |-<br /> |May<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200805|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200905|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201005|May]]<br /> |May<br /> |-<br /> |Jun<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200806|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200906|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201006|Jun]]<br /> |Jun<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200707|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200807|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200907|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201007|Jul]]<br /> |Jul<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200708|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200808|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200908|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201008|Aug]]<br /> |Aug<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200709|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200809|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201009|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200710|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200810|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201010|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200711|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200811|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200911|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011|Nov]]<br /> |Nov<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200712|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200812|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200912|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201012|Dec]]<br /> |Dec<br /> |}<br /> |}<br /> <br /> == CS spells ==<br /> <br /> Hey, recently got the Oblivion CS and was looking into writing some spells on NPC pages for the ONPCRP. Two questions, I know how to find the spells and stuff, but the icon near the spell in the inventory is an 'S' with a question mark near it, and i cant find the mentioned spell - anything you can help with that? And secondly, how would I present that infomation in the page itself. Thanks in advance [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 16:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : That sounds like the NPC has a spell that has been removed from the game afterwards. Interesting. I'd mention that in a Bugs section. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Ah, just found the spell after posting, turned out it was a leveled spell set (Crusaderlvl100). How do i go about adding this information to a page and on checking spells thats checking the spell list of the npc, and then the individual spell/spell set right? Thanks (again!) [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 16:24, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Oh yes, sorry. I should have realised that's what you meant. See [[Oblivion:Bumph gra-Gash|Bumph gra-Gash]]'s page for an example of how the Crusader spells have been written up before. That's the easiest way to do it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:32, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Very helpful :). Thanks again [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 16:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::If I may scrape in, we now also have [[OB:Leveled Spells Lists|this page]]. So if you could write/change spells to link there it would be helpful. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I will do from this point on! [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 17:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Bloody hell! I never knew about that page! Excellent work there, SerC! In my defense, I'm still not feeling particularly well... but it looks like it might be better if you answered Emoboy's questions for now :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == I'm Back. ==<br /> <br /> Yes, yes. I appeared in Septemper and disappeared. But...I came back to that comment on the Community Portal about how &quot;People need to work harder&quot;.....WHAT? Wikipedia members don't have to do much, They can chose to be wanderers, information-gatherers, or Wikipedia administrator's. We don't have to work hard because we joined this Wiki, it means we have EVEN more access to knowledge about the Elder Scrolls. We're not providing a labor service. And YES, that article is in October. But it's still wrong. [[User:Lucil Hellsing|Lucil Hellsing]] 19:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Dragon Alphabet ==<br /> <br /> Vectorized letters from PNG to SVG and made a TTF font. If not opposite - I can upload to the site. =) [[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 22:35, 9 January 2011 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;<br /> Here, [http://cs10136.vkontakte.ru/u151791/125643950/y_f5ae606a.jpg image] - so looks set. [[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 22:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : If you can get us SVG bitmaps and a TTF font, that would be '''brilliant'''! Please do! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hmm ... The server does not correctly handle SVG. Scaling does not work and is not determined transparency. Which converter handles SVG? Is set up parameter $wgSVGConverter in LocalSettings.php? By default used ImageMagick. And this is very poor. Optimally - Inkscape or rsvg.[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 09:38, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yes, we're currently using ImageMagick. You may want to post on [[User talk:Daveh|Daveh's talk page]] and recommend the alternatives, as he and [[User:Nephele|Nephele]] are the only two that can change those settings, and Nephele hasn't been around for a while. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::The TTF font is what's really important. If you could upload that, the SVGs are less important. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Ok. [[Media:DragonTES.zip]]. Just ... While without &quot;Readme&quot; file. And the final legal status is unclear. I want to clarify in Bethesda, but unfortunately I do not know exactly how to do it. Their forum is strongly hammered... (tooooo many post and very fast posting comments)..., and where to write I do not know.<br /> <br /> :::::And yet... Hopefully, my dirty-english is not very annoying. =) —[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::It's brilliant! Thank you for making it. I've already [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Dragon_Alphabet&amp;curid=91074&amp;diff=633652&amp;oldid=632912 changed] our dragon alphabet page to use the font instead of images for the example poem. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:21, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::&lt;s&gt;Ooops.... Spacebar... 8( Now try to fix it.&lt;/s&gt; Still, you should use bold style - I did a little thinner than glyphs. —[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:56, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Hmm ... Very strange ... I have a space to appear as a rectangle, and then a space. But in another browser, and in the same on another computer, everything is fine ... You normally display the gap? —[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 18:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::Not sure what you mean there. It looks fine on my PC. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == The elder scrolls V: skyrim ==<br /> <br /> umm i posted this on another few peoples pages but you seemed pretty experienced so i thought if you hadnt seen this you might want to http://twitpic.com/photos/Wo33er its the magazine from gameinformer im pretty sure its not fake, i thought someone may want to put something up on the main page [[User:Varus Vantinius|Varus Vantinius]] 01:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == deletion of info ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I dont know if Im doing this right so bear with me please, Im doing what the stock info told me.<br /> <br /> I have noticed you deleted one of my edits on a talk page with the comment 'topic is over a year old, please do not practice necromany' or words to that effect.<br /> <br /> While I understand that things need to be concise and topical I really do feel that such things are.. kind of rude (?) maybe wrong word, im not english<br /> <br /> I understand that no intention of offence was meant and that we all want the same thing here.<br /> I do however feel that my edit in that instance was to the point and helpful. If people want information about mechanics, what does it matter when it was posted? As long as it is accurate and helpful.<br /> <br /> I mean this is a wiki, wich means its a communal effort. I do sometimes get the idea that this is like those 60's communes where they all said it was a group effort, but 2-3 people are in charge really.<br /> That rapidly descends into navel gazing, wich being a kind of encyclopedia would be contrary to our mission statement.<br /> And I really hope that those elements of a communal effort can be avoided.<br /> <br /> Im sorry I dont know how to link to what I am specifically talking about, but it is an edit concerning the 'bad people' quest from larrius varro. {{unsigned|Merari|15 January 2011}}<br /> <br /> : It seems we're talking about [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind_talk:Larrius_Varro_Tells_a_Little_Story&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=617060 this] edit and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind_talk:Larrius_Varro_Tells_a_Little_Story&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=617060 this] reversion.<br /> : Your edit was removed because the topic to which you were replying was last updated over a year before. There's no point in replying to topics from that long ago because the people involved have almost certainly moved on. While I can't speak for the IPs involved, I know all the named editors in that debate no longer edit the site.<br /> : The other reason for removing your edit is that talk pages are not forums. Talk pages exist to discuss how articles could be improved or, since this is a gaming site, for questions specifically about the article. You offered a post that basically said &quot;I think X&quot;, and I'm afraid we aren't interested. If UESP included every user's favoured solutions to quests and problems, it would be the kind of unreadable rubbish you find on other wiki gaming sites. We stick to the facts, and only offer suggestions where people have had difficulties. Currently, there are several editors engaged in removing unwanted and unnecessary suggestions, because we've let them get out of hand.<br /> : Lastly, you've obviously misunderstood the wiki concept. Yes, anyone can edit, but yes there are people in charge: it's not a free-for-all. There are rules and standards, and I'm a patroller, which means I'm one of the people who tries to enforce them. I know the rules, and obviously you don't, but it doesn't make me more ''important'' than you. If you think I've made a mistake, then feel free to ask the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|community]] or [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|admins]] what they think of my decision. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Thank you for your reply :)<br /> I understand better now how things work, I think.<br /> No, there is certainly no need to ask anyone else what they think, I respect your decision.<br /> Ill try to distinguish better between fact and opinion, and keep in mind what is topical.<br /> Thank you for your help.<br /> --[[User:Merari|Merari]] 06:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Finishing Sancre Tor? ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh! With the recent upload of new Sancre Tor maps (courtesy of User:RaidensTechSupp), my [[User:Krusty/Sandbox4|revamp]] of the page is actually finished. As I mentioned earlier, I would really like you to read through the walkthroughs (in particular, my sad attempts at Lore) and give it your stamp of approval. When the [[Lore:Sancre Tor|Lore page]] gets a revamp, we can always move some of the Lore to that page, but as long as it links to the place page, there’s no harm in including a bit a background history, IMO.&lt;br&gt; Also, if you find yourself in an image-snapping mood, I think the page is screaming for some additional interior images, maybe even a new one for the exterior, as the exisiting one does not really give an impression of what must be the largest ruin in Cyrodiil. Otherwise, I’ll just slap a NeedsImage tag on it for now; the really important part is the proofread. Oh and btw, [[Media:OB-load-ghost.jpg|this]] is most definitely a shot from Sancre Tor, southwestern room of [[Oblivion:Sancre_Tor#Zone_5:_Sancre_Tor.2C_Catacombs|Sancre Tor, Catacombs]]. Hope you can find the time to help me finish this one off. All the best! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I doubt I'm going to be able to do this. There's so much unpatrolled crap on the wiki these days and by the time I'm done with it I'm really not in the mood to do anything else. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Perfectly alright - I am aware of the ton of unpatrolled edits, so let's do something about them instead - when I come back from work, I'll try to get some patrolling done as well; in the meantime, I'll just launch the ST page - it can only get better! ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Okay, three images [[:File:OB-interior-Sancre Tor, Catacombs.jpg|here]], [[:File:OB-interior-Sancre Tor, Entry Hall.jpg|here]] and [[:File:OB-interior-Sancre Tor, Hall of Judgement.jpg|here]]. The rest of it seems okay but I'll try to take a longer look at some point. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Brilliant shots! Thank you so much! I'll launch the page later this evening, so I can get that thing out of my head. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Re: Dragon Alphabet Revisions ==<br /> <br /> ''this isn't necessary. If I'd wanted it there, I'd have put it there when I made the damn page''<br /> <br /> You may have made the page, but this is a wiki, not your personal blog. I've noticed a pattern with your last few reverts. Instead of answering questions on talk pages, you erase them, telling the asker to learn about certain subjects; such as you did [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore_talk:Main_Page&amp;curid=6832&amp;diff=635474&amp;oldid=635472 here]. We're meant to assume good faith here, and &quot;because I don't like it&quot; has never been a valid reason for a revert. --[[User:Debatra|Debatra]] 01:52, 17 January 2011 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :Also, in this particular case there seems to be no reason not to include it. It's useful if you want to know how to pronounce Draconic, which seems to me like a valid thing for a language page.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Debatra, don't even think about telling me how the wiki works. I know exactly how it works, and I know what questions are appropriate and which aren't. The problem with caching has been brought up many times before and certainly isn't relevant to a Lore page. While you're busy noticing patterns, I'm out improving the wiki - something I see you don't really do very much. Perhaps you should concentrate more on improving articles and less on telling other people how you think things work? I never said it was my page, I said I created it. It certainly doesn't help with pronunciation. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I would be, but it seems you instinctively go against anything longer than a line or two I try to add. Remember our little argument over [[User:Wizy/Chain_Spells|Spell Chaining]]? It's a valid mechanic that works in Oblivion, yet you were almost religiously advocating it's removal from the wiki. I ''still'' don't understand how anyone could think it's the same thing as Spell Stacking. That old topic aside, I know I haven't been active for a while. Arguments like this, however, make it hard to fathom why people would bother when some people like to have an iron grip on new information. You never said it was your page, true, but your comment when geting rid of the English characters (see the first line of this topic if you've forgotten) implies you ''think'' these pages are yours to do with what you wish. --[[User:Debatra|Debatra]] 12:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I ''knew'' I recognised your name from somewhere. Having been around much longer and done a lot more than you, I'm better-able to judge what's valuable. To mis-quote Frederick the Great, to include everything is to include nothing: including every little piece of information that people find interesting makes it impossible to find the information that's actually useful. Don't bother replying: I'm not interested. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Fighters Stronghold Category? ==<br /> <br /> Hey Rpeh! Now that Emoboy64 has finished adding all the alternative service times to the 66 NPCs affected by Fighters Stronghold, I was wondering if it was worth it to add them to some kind of Category, simply to keep track of them? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Good idea. How about Oblivion-NPCs-Changed Schedules-(mod name)? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Sounds good; as far as I remember (from that old [[UESPWiki_talk:Oblivion_NPC_Redesign_Project/Archive_3#Changes_Made_by_Official_Plug-ins|thread]] on the project talk page), only KotN and Figthers Stronghold causes NPCs to change behavior, but it would be very useful to list them in separate categories. Is there an easy way to create that cat, maybe by bot? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 15:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Quick question ==<br /> <br /> No worries, this time I '''do''' believe it is a quick question; as I was writing the walkthrough for the first zone of [[Shivering:Gardens of Flesh and Bone|Gardens of Flesh and Bone]], I noticed that our [[Media:SI-map-Gardens_of_Flesh_and_Bone.jpg|map]] displays two exits on top of each other ('''C''' and '''D''') - do you know why we have two exits, and are we talking another cleanup-tag? No rush, btw - I was just puzzled about it. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It looks like one door exits to the Fringe, and the other to the Ordered Fringe. Only one will ever be present at a time, so yeah - a cleanup tag seems to be in order. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:27, 20 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Thanks for the reply. I suspected something like that, but since the Gardens are inaccessible until Order is present, the &quot;normal&quot; door should be removed from the map. I'll put up a cleanup-tag. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:14, 20 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Robert....Herbert? ==<br /> <br /> D It's so fun to say, Robert Herbert, Robert Herbert, Robert Herbert. :D You have....4 First names. I'm not teasing. I just think it's fun, Like Meet the Fockers. :D Lol. [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 14:52, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The fact that those two rhyme is why I always call myself &quot;Rob&quot;. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Are you....offended? Sorry. :| [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 15:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Not at all. I was just making a comment. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Hey, it could be worse. We had a guy in grade school whose name was Ronald McDonald. Needless to say, he insisted on being called Ron McDonald, and as he was the class bully, he usually got his way. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == A problem ==<br /> <br /> Hey, it seems with have a problem with the template for the service times. Look at these two NPC's; [[Oblivion:Agnete the Pickled|Agnete the Pickled]] and [[Oblivion:Alga|Alga]]. They both have Shivering Isles inserted along side the template and its all the NPC's with the template on. Could you look into this please?. Thanks [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 20:30, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My bad. I left a test bit of code on there when I added the category and didn't notice. That text will start to disappear now, although it'll take a few minutes. Thanks for pointing it out! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:33, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Question about the sic tags ==<br /> <br /> How was the 3rd sic tag you added put on the daggerfall page as well, especially without it showing it in the history? Im pretty sure it wasnt there when I checked it (though the other 2 were already there, just werent on the lore page). Does changing something on the lore page of a book automatically change it on the relevant game articles as well or something like that?--[[User:Catmaniac66|Catmaniac66]] 12:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yup. The Lore book pages are &quot;transcluded&quot; onto the game pages. That means we only need one copy of the main text, but the game page can include information such as price, weight, location etc. It doesn't matter so much in the case of ''Confessions Of A Thief‎'' because it's only used in Daggerfall, but some books are used in three or four games. Take a look at the [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Daggerfall:Confessions_Of_A_Thief&amp;action=edit source] of the DF version and you'll see how it's done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Dungeon Size ==<br /> <br /> A question that came to my mind, stemmed by [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering:Gardens_of_Flesh_and_Bone&amp;curid=18596&amp;diff=637971&amp;oldid=637153 this edit], was the qualifications of a dungeon being small/medium/large. I believe it is by number of zones, but what are the numbers? --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 21:58, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> : That can be found [[Oblivion:Places#Notes|here.]] [[User:Mxk101|mxk101]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Mxk101|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks...Huh, never noticed that there... --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 22:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: It's easily overlooked. That note was added by [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion%3APlaces&amp;diff=129602&amp;oldid=102132 some total n00b] after he [[Oblivion_talk:Places/Archive_1#Size_Matters|whined about it]] on the talk page :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:41, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RUM! ==<br /> <br /> {| width=&quot;400&quot; style=&quot;border:solid #990000 1px; margin: 1px; background: #ffdddd&quot; cellspacing=0<br /> |[[Image:UESP-reward-Rum.jpg|left]]<br /> Wow and wow! That was 15 schedules on one [[Oblivion:Blind_Moth_Priest|page]], yes? I have followed the progress in your Sandbox with a mixture of fascination and OBNPCRP-related horror, but there is absolutely no doubt that it is my turn to buy you a drink! A brilliant effort!! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Thanks, mate :) I've been meaning to do that page for ages. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Temple of the Moths ==<br /> <br /> Hello again! While I was following your work on all the blind monks, I took a look at the [[Oblivion:Temple_of_the_Ancestor_Moths|Temple of the Ancestor Moths]] page, and to be honest, it is a mess in its current state. I also noticed that you have related - and unfinished - business in Sandbox5 called [[Oblivion:Monk's Quarters]]. I propose that we split it into two separate pages – a settlement page for the “exterior” with the quarters and the Chapel - and a place page in typical dungeon fashion, which I will “fix” for the OPRP. What do you think? And just in case, should it be a disambig affair or something else? Cheers! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yeah... that might be the best plan. Otherwise we end up with an irritating hybrid. The settlement page would cover the Moth Shrine too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Well, if you mean the entire Moth Shrine [[Oblivion:Temple_of_the_Ancestor_Moths#Zone_5:_Shrine_of_The_Moth|zone]], then it might be hard to cover on the settlement page as it is basically a cave with no entrance from the settlement - the well behind the house (the one-way exit) will most definitely be mentioned though. Nevertheless, that's not a problem right now; I'll throw both pages into sandboxes and get to work. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Sorry... typed the wrong thing. I meant the Ancestor Moth Crypt. That and the Monk's Quarters go on the settlement page... maybe the the church itself, although that could really go on either. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, after spending way too much time on [[Oblivion:Bleak Mine|Bleak Mine]], I have started on the walkthroughs for the dungeon part of the Temple of the Ancestor Moth. One question; in the [[User:Krusty/Sandbox8#Bugs|bugs section]] it seems like there is a small problem, at least according to my observations; when exactly will the quest update? After some testing, activating door C in the [[User:Krusty/Sandbox8#Zone_1:_Ancestor_Moth_Crypt|Ancestor Moth Crypt]] gives the quest update, while the current bugs section seems to point at another door, which is locked by the Catacombs Key (the description is a bit blurry, but I think it is door D, leading to the 3rd zone, the [[User:Krusty/Sandbox8#Zone_3:_Catacombs_of_The_Temple_of_The_Moth|Catacombs]]. Do you know which door is the correct one? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::As far as I can see, Door C in the Crypt will set the quest to stage 4 but only if stage 20 has been set (ie, you've talked to the Gray Fox). Door D in the Halls ''always'' sets stage 6, which doesn't look like it gives an update. There could be differences between versions here - XBox users always disagree with PC users as to when the inventory for the final monk gets generated, for instance. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Thanks. I'll try and give it a check; seems like I can simply travel to the Temple with an earlier save and then talk to Meth after receiving the update. Kindda spooky with the differences between versions, though. I might end up writing a note telling players to stay away from that Temple at all times. ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} This is really weird; just tested the bug with a character that never even joined the guild and ran through the Temple (tried everything we warn about on the different pages) and no bug. When I whined about it on the IRC, Emoboy64 offered to test it as well - he came up with nothing. Either this was fixed somewhere along the line, or we have a very big difference between PS3 (me), Xbox (Emo) and PC. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Trouble is.... I can't test this. I just went through it at lvl1 and never got an update at all, but that's because I have the UOP installed. Unfortunately my OB install seems largely screwed at the moment - I can't uninstall it and I can't reinstall it. Too much mucking about with different versions, probably. I'm afraid you're on your own here, unless I can work out how to fix it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 03:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: No problem! I'll finish the page anyway, warnings included, but we should probably test it at some point, as it is a very serious bug. I'll try and ask a few people for a quick test when I have the time. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Thanks ==<br /> <br /> Thanks for the backup there, wasn't sure what to do about all that. [[User:Masterlocksmith|Masterlocksmith]] 20:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : No problem :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Suggestion ==<br /> <br /> Seeing as you are...well, the most ACTIVE User on this site....Have you given thought of an application for becoming a Beauracrat? :D I might have spelled this wrong. Lol. [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 18:56, 29 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I thought it too, but Rpeh stated that he doesn't want admin rights. Besides, he already has basic server access. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 19:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: There's more to life than having '''teh powah''' on a wiki. The time I put in being a patroller is draining enough. Having been an admin, I know that it's even more draining. I'm not ruling out applying for a larger role in the future, but I'm happy doing what I do right now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Misnamed Picture ==<br /> <br /> A recent edit ([http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Fort_Istirus&amp;diff=638779&amp;oldid=626507 here]) tried to fix a spelling error but accidentally removed the pic, due to its wrong name ([http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-place-Fort_Istirus_Sancturies.jpg picture]). Can the picture be moved to a properly spelled page? I would rather not revert it back to being wrong to show the picture... --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 03:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Done. Just as an FYI, Patrollers and Admins can all move image pages directly without needing to re-upload, so posting on the Admin Noticeboard is probably the best bet. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Pirates ==<br /> <br /> I didn't see that. Thanks for the catch.<br /> <br /> A problem though, do '''all''' of the Pirate links in the NPC summary link to [[Oblivion:Pirate]]? [[Oblivion:First_Mate_Filch|These]] [[Oblivion:Dead Captain|two]] do anyway. [[User:Mxk101|mxk101]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Mxk101|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Unfortunately so. There might be a way around it... but not an easy one. I'm playing in a sandbox at the moment. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: There - fixed. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Copyright Question ==<br /> <br /> Is it possible to add youtube videos to your profile WITHOUT getting the site in trouble? :| [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 17:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I don't believe there's a problem with copyright. I've seen it done on other sites. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Compromise? ==<br /> <br /> I know I suggested a place for Bureaucracy. But, you have so much more potential than an ordinary patroller, and you could help the site more, with more benefits, and new and better oppurtunities to improve UESPWiki. <br /> So, by the very least. Administrator? :D [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 17:42, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : If enough people want me to do it, then I'll stand for election. I don't see that happening any time soon, however. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I want you to know that I'll support you if you decide to something like this. You are UESP's best. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:57, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> So...if I get everyone to say yes, you'll accept the nomination? Great. I'll get started. :D [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 18:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Cephorus who? ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh, I have a question about the Cephorus that appears in [[Lore:The Wolf Queen|The Wolf Queen]]. It seems to be Cephorus I (as all the links for him point to the first Cephorus), but then that would be contradictory to his [[Lore:Cephorus#Cephorus_I|description]], since Cephorus I did marry (Queen Bianki). I assume that his Lore:People description is incorrect about the marriage, but I wanted to make sure. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 23:23, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Ah yes, the wonderful contradictions of Septim Lore! See [[Lore:Septim_Dynasty#cite_note-42|this note]] on the Septim Dynasty page for the answer to that little problem. The Lore:People pages need a '''lot''' of work to clean them up. For a start, we can add Cephorus' birthdate of 3E127. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Ok, so when mentioning Cephorus I in other lore pages, would it be best not to mention Bianki? The lore page I have in mind (as in, the page I'm researching info on), [[Lore:Gilane|Gilane]], doesn't ''need'' her inclusion per say, but it would help the small page. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: My ''personal'' feeling is that [[Lore:The Madness of Pelagius|The Madness of Pelagius]] is wrong. It dates back to Daggerfall, and has appeared without alteration in each game since. There's definitely one case where DF info was corrected in later games ([[Lore:Brief History of the Empire (Daggerfall)|Brief History of the Empire]] says Pelagius was Tiber Septim's &quot;eldest living son&quot;, but [[Lore:Brief History of the Empire|Brief History of the Empire]] fro MW and OB says Pelagius was Tiber's grandson). I take this to mean that a few tweaks were made in the Lore to fix problems (one of Tiber's other children would have inherited rather than Pelagius, and definitely ahead of Kintyra), and to give the writers escape hatches (in OB we are led to believe that the entire Septim line has been killed, but the existence of other descendants from Cephorus (or others) would mean this might not be the case - and now we have a dragonborn in Skyrim).<br /> ::: There was a discussion ages ago that said Lore pages should try to reflect what a typical well-read NPC would know about the situation, so no &quot;Loredas is Saturday&quot; stuff. Later there was the long, involved and utterly hideous s***storm about Lore sources that's archived [[UESPWiki talk:Lore/Sources for Lore Articles|here]]. You don't have to read that though - just see the final resolution [[UESPWiki_talk:Lore#Once_More_Unto_the_Breach...|here]]. I think the key point in that for this discussion is &quot;Stick to the facts, not interpretation. If in doubt, list all views.&quot;. I imagine you're thinking about a couple of sentences on the succession to Gilane's throne after Cephorus succeeded to the Imperial throne? I think it's fair to say something like &quot;some sources say (marriage, kids, possible succession through them) and others say (no kids, end of line)&quot;. My phrasing might need a little work ;)<br /> ::: It's good to see somebody else interested in Lore here. It's frustrating, but immensely rewarding! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Hmm, I guess I have to watch out more for these unfortunate contradictions, but a historian's got to do what a historian's got to do. Thanks for all the help rpeh! -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::You'll note that some contradictions get [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity retconned] in later releases. In the light of Skyrim's hero being called the Dragonborn, for instance, it's not such a big deal that Mannimarco was able to wear the Amulet of Kings in Oblivion.<br /> :::::To summarise my hideously long previous post: if there's a source for it, mention it. And don't insert your own opinions. The huge Lore debate largely came about because a couple of TIL people wanted to turn our Lore section into a copy of theirs - all speculation included. (Yes, that oversimplifies it, but if you ever do have a couple of hours to read through that whole debate page you'll see what I mean). In the end, as long as UESP sticks to clear sources, we can never be accused of screwing up - only of being misled. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Stick to sources, stay away from opinions, and no speculation, got it ;) -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 01:23, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Sorry for ranting a bit... I re-read part of that big Lore debate and remembered just how pissed off I was at the time. I'll calm down now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I believe that you meant to say Mankar Camoran ;) --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> When RoBoT was adding to the cleanup tag to the NPC images it broke most, if not all, of the == Summary == headings. Nothing major just letting you know. [[User:Mxk101|mxk101]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Mxk101|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&diff=639918 2011-02-04T02:38:56Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Cephorus who? */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>{{DISPLAYTITLE:user talk:rpeh}}<br /> {| class=&quot;compress&quot; style=&quot;float:right; background-color: #ddddff; border:solid 3px #9999cc; margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> |-valign=&quot;top&quot;<br /> |__TOC__<br /> |<br /> {|class=&quot;wikitable compress&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> !colspan=5|Archive<br /> |-<br /> |colspan=5 style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |[[User:Rpeh/Cookies|Cookies]] : [[User_talk:Rpeh/Warnings|Warnings]]<br /> |-<br /> !'07||'08||'09||'10||'11<br /> |-<br /> |Jan<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200801|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200901|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201001|Jan]]<br /> |Jan<br /> |-<br /> |Feb<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200802|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200902|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201002|Feb]]<br /> |Feb<br /> |-<br /> |Mar<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200803|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200903|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201003|Mar]]<br /> |Mar<br /> |-<br /> |Apr<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200804|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200904|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201004|Apr]]<br /> |Apr<br /> |-<br /> |May<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200805|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200905|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201005|May]]<br /> |May<br /> |-<br /> |Jun<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200806|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200906|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201006|Jun]]<br /> |Jun<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200707|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200807|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200907|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201007|Jul]]<br /> |Jul<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200708|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200808|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200908|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201008|Aug]]<br /> |Aug<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200709|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200809|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201009|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200710|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200810|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201010|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200711|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200811|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200911|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011|Nov]]<br /> |Nov<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200712|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200812|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200912|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201012|Dec]]<br /> |Dec<br /> |}<br /> |}<br /> <br /> == CS spells ==<br /> <br /> Hey, recently got the Oblivion CS and was looking into writing some spells on NPC pages for the ONPCRP. Two questions, I know how to find the spells and stuff, but the icon near the spell in the inventory is an 'S' with a question mark near it, and i cant find the mentioned spell - anything you can help with that? And secondly, how would I present that infomation in the page itself. Thanks in advance [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 16:19, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : That sounds like the NPC has a spell that has been removed from the game afterwards. Interesting. I'd mention that in a Bugs section. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:22, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Ah, just found the spell after posting, turned out it was a leveled spell set (Crusaderlvl100). How do i go about adding this information to a page and on checking spells thats checking the spell list of the npc, and then the individual spell/spell set right? Thanks (again!) [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 16:24, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Oh yes, sorry. I should have realised that's what you meant. See [[Oblivion:Bumph gra-Gash|Bumph gra-Gash]]'s page for an example of how the Crusader spells have been written up before. That's the easiest way to do it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:32, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Very helpful :). Thanks again [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 16:34, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::If I may scrape in, we now also have [[OB:Leveled Spells Lists|this page]]. So if you could write/change spells to link there it would be helpful. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:50, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I will do from this point on! [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 17:52, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Bloody hell! I never knew about that page! Excellent work there, SerC! In my defense, I'm still not feeling particularly well... but it looks like it might be better if you answered Emoboy's questions for now :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:25, 7 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == I'm Back. ==<br /> <br /> Yes, yes. I appeared in Septemper and disappeared. But...I came back to that comment on the Community Portal about how &quot;People need to work harder&quot;.....WHAT? Wikipedia members don't have to do much, They can chose to be wanderers, information-gatherers, or Wikipedia administrator's. We don't have to work hard because we joined this Wiki, it means we have EVEN more access to knowledge about the Elder Scrolls. We're not providing a labor service. And YES, that article is in October. But it's still wrong. [[User:Lucil Hellsing|Lucil Hellsing]] 19:19, 8 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Dragon Alphabet ==<br /> <br /> Vectorized letters from PNG to SVG and made a TTF font. If not opposite - I can upload to the site. =) [[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 22:35, 9 January 2011 (UTC)&lt;br /&gt;<br /> Here, [http://cs10136.vkontakte.ru/u151791/125643950/y_f5ae606a.jpg image] - so looks set. [[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 22:55, 9 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : If you can get us SVG bitmaps and a TTF font, that would be '''brilliant'''! Please do! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:35, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hmm ... The server does not correctly handle SVG. Scaling does not work and is not determined transparency. Which converter handles SVG? Is set up parameter $wgSVGConverter in LocalSettings.php? By default used ImageMagick. And this is very poor. Optimally - Inkscape or rsvg.[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 09:38, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yes, we're currently using ImageMagick. You may want to post on [[User talk:Daveh|Daveh's talk page]] and recommend the alternatives, as he and [[User:Nephele|Nephele]] are the only two that can change those settings, and Nephele hasn't been around for a while. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 10:23, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::The TTF font is what's really important. If you could upload that, the SVGs are less important. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:31, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Ok. [[Media:DragonTES.zip]]. Just ... While without &quot;Readme&quot; file. And the final legal status is unclear. I want to clarify in Bethesda, but unfortunately I do not know exactly how to do it. Their forum is strongly hammered... (tooooo many post and very fast posting comments)..., and where to write I do not know.<br /> <br /> :::::And yet... Hopefully, my dirty-english is not very annoying. =) —[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::It's brilliant! Thank you for making it. I've already [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Dragon_Alphabet&amp;curid=91074&amp;diff=633652&amp;oldid=632912 changed] our dragon alphabet page to use the font instead of images for the example poem. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:21, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::&lt;s&gt;Ooops.... Spacebar... 8( Now try to fix it.&lt;/s&gt; Still, you should use bold style - I did a little thinner than glyphs. —[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 15:56, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> :::::::Hmm ... Very strange ... I have a space to appear as a rectangle, and then a space. But in another browser, and in the same on another computer, everything is fine ... You normally display the gap? —[[User:ZKoshak|ZKoshak&lt;sub&gt;&lt;small&gt;(Ruesp)&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;]] 18:45, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::Not sure what you mean there. It looks fine on my PC. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:25, 10 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == The elder scrolls V: skyrim ==<br /> <br /> umm i posted this on another few peoples pages but you seemed pretty experienced so i thought if you hadnt seen this you might want to http://twitpic.com/photos/Wo33er its the magazine from gameinformer im pretty sure its not fake, i thought someone may want to put something up on the main page [[User:Varus Vantinius|Varus Vantinius]] 01:59, 11 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == deletion of info ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I dont know if Im doing this right so bear with me please, Im doing what the stock info told me.<br /> <br /> I have noticed you deleted one of my edits on a talk page with the comment 'topic is over a year old, please do not practice necromany' or words to that effect.<br /> <br /> While I understand that things need to be concise and topical I really do feel that such things are.. kind of rude (?) maybe wrong word, im not english<br /> <br /> I understand that no intention of offence was meant and that we all want the same thing here.<br /> I do however feel that my edit in that instance was to the point and helpful. If people want information about mechanics, what does it matter when it was posted? As long as it is accurate and helpful.<br /> <br /> I mean this is a wiki, wich means its a communal effort. I do sometimes get the idea that this is like those 60's communes where they all said it was a group effort, but 2-3 people are in charge really.<br /> That rapidly descends into navel gazing, wich being a kind of encyclopedia would be contrary to our mission statement.<br /> And I really hope that those elements of a communal effort can be avoided.<br /> <br /> Im sorry I dont know how to link to what I am specifically talking about, but it is an edit concerning the 'bad people' quest from larrius varro. {{unsigned|Merari|15 January 2011}}<br /> <br /> : It seems we're talking about [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind_talk:Larrius_Varro_Tells_a_Little_Story&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=617060 this] edit and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind_talk:Larrius_Varro_Tells_a_Little_Story&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=617060 this] reversion.<br /> : Your edit was removed because the topic to which you were replying was last updated over a year before. There's no point in replying to topics from that long ago because the people involved have almost certainly moved on. While I can't speak for the IPs involved, I know all the named editors in that debate no longer edit the site.<br /> : The other reason for removing your edit is that talk pages are not forums. Talk pages exist to discuss how articles could be improved or, since this is a gaming site, for questions specifically about the article. You offered a post that basically said &quot;I think X&quot;, and I'm afraid we aren't interested. If UESP included every user's favoured solutions to quests and problems, it would be the kind of unreadable rubbish you find on other wiki gaming sites. We stick to the facts, and only offer suggestions where people have had difficulties. Currently, there are several editors engaged in removing unwanted and unnecessary suggestions, because we've let them get out of hand.<br /> : Lastly, you've obviously misunderstood the wiki concept. Yes, anyone can edit, but yes there are people in charge: it's not a free-for-all. There are rules and standards, and I'm a patroller, which means I'm one of the people who tries to enforce them. I know the rules, and obviously you don't, but it doesn't make me more ''important'' than you. If you think I've made a mistake, then feel free to ask the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|community]] or [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|admins]] what they think of my decision. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:06, 15 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Thank you for your reply :)<br /> I understand better now how things work, I think.<br /> No, there is certainly no need to ask anyone else what they think, I respect your decision.<br /> Ill try to distinguish better between fact and opinion, and keep in mind what is topical.<br /> Thank you for your help.<br /> --[[User:Merari|Merari]] 06:03, 16 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Finishing Sancre Tor? ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh! With the recent upload of new Sancre Tor maps (courtesy of User:RaidensTechSupp), my [[User:Krusty/Sandbox4|revamp]] of the page is actually finished. As I mentioned earlier, I would really like you to read through the walkthroughs (in particular, my sad attempts at Lore) and give it your stamp of approval. When the [[Lore:Sancre Tor|Lore page]] gets a revamp, we can always move some of the Lore to that page, but as long as it links to the place page, there’s no harm in including a bit a background history, IMO.&lt;br&gt; Also, if you find yourself in an image-snapping mood, I think the page is screaming for some additional interior images, maybe even a new one for the exterior, as the exisiting one does not really give an impression of what must be the largest ruin in Cyrodiil. Otherwise, I’ll just slap a NeedsImage tag on it for now; the really important part is the proofread. Oh and btw, [[Media:OB-load-ghost.jpg|this]] is most definitely a shot from Sancre Tor, southwestern room of [[Oblivion:Sancre_Tor#Zone_5:_Sancre_Tor.2C_Catacombs|Sancre Tor, Catacombs]]. Hope you can find the time to help me finish this one off. All the best! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I doubt I'm going to be able to do this. There's so much unpatrolled crap on the wiki these days and by the time I'm done with it I'm really not in the mood to do anything else. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Perfectly alright - I am aware of the ton of unpatrolled edits, so let's do something about them instead - when I come back from work, I'll try to get some patrolling done as well; in the meantime, I'll just launch the ST page - it can only get better! ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Okay, three images [[:File:OB-interior-Sancre Tor, Catacombs.jpg|here]], [[:File:OB-interior-Sancre Tor, Entry Hall.jpg|here]] and [[:File:OB-interior-Sancre Tor, Hall of Judgement.jpg|here]]. The rest of it seems okay but I'll try to take a longer look at some point. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:49, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Brilliant shots! Thank you so much! I'll launch the page later this evening, so I can get that thing out of my head. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:04, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Re: Dragon Alphabet Revisions ==<br /> <br /> ''this isn't necessary. If I'd wanted it there, I'd have put it there when I made the damn page''<br /> <br /> You may have made the page, but this is a wiki, not your personal blog. I've noticed a pattern with your last few reverts. Instead of answering questions on talk pages, you erase them, telling the asker to learn about certain subjects; such as you did [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore_talk:Main_Page&amp;curid=6832&amp;diff=635474&amp;oldid=635472 here]. We're meant to assume good faith here, and &quot;because I don't like it&quot; has never been a valid reason for a revert. --[[User:Debatra|Debatra]] 01:52, 17 January 2011 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :Also, in this particular case there seems to be no reason not to include it. It's useful if you want to know how to pronounce Draconic, which seems to me like a valid thing for a language page.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 02:12, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Debatra, don't even think about telling me how the wiki works. I know exactly how it works, and I know what questions are appropriate and which aren't. The problem with caching has been brought up many times before and certainly isn't relevant to a Lore page. While you're busy noticing patterns, I'm out improving the wiki - something I see you don't really do very much. Perhaps you should concentrate more on improving articles and less on telling other people how you think things work? I never said it was my page, I said I created it. It certainly doesn't help with pronunciation. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:25, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I would be, but it seems you instinctively go against anything longer than a line or two I try to add. Remember our little argument over [[User:Wizy/Chain_Spells|Spell Chaining]]? It's a valid mechanic that works in Oblivion, yet you were almost religiously advocating it's removal from the wiki. I ''still'' don't understand how anyone could think it's the same thing as Spell Stacking. That old topic aside, I know I haven't been active for a while. Arguments like this, however, make it hard to fathom why people would bother when some people like to have an iron grip on new information. You never said it was your page, true, but your comment when geting rid of the English characters (see the first line of this topic if you've forgotten) implies you ''think'' these pages are yours to do with what you wish. --[[User:Debatra|Debatra]] 12:03, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I ''knew'' I recognised your name from somewhere. Having been around much longer and done a lot more than you, I'm better-able to judge what's valuable. To mis-quote Frederick the Great, to include everything is to include nothing: including every little piece of information that people find interesting makes it impossible to find the information that's actually useful. Don't bother replying: I'm not interested. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:07, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Fighters Stronghold Category? ==<br /> <br /> Hey Rpeh! Now that Emoboy64 has finished adding all the alternative service times to the 66 NPCs affected by Fighters Stronghold, I was wondering if it was worth it to add them to some kind of Category, simply to keep track of them? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:22, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Good idea. How about Oblivion-NPCs-Changed Schedules-(mod name)? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:19, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Sounds good; as far as I remember (from that old [[UESPWiki_talk:Oblivion_NPC_Redesign_Project/Archive_3#Changes_Made_by_Official_Plug-ins|thread]] on the project talk page), only KotN and Figthers Stronghold causes NPCs to change behavior, but it would be very useful to list them in separate categories. Is there an easy way to create that cat, maybe by bot? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 15:05, 17 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Quick question ==<br /> <br /> No worries, this time I '''do''' believe it is a quick question; as I was writing the walkthrough for the first zone of [[Shivering:Gardens of Flesh and Bone|Gardens of Flesh and Bone]], I noticed that our [[Media:SI-map-Gardens_of_Flesh_and_Bone.jpg|map]] displays two exits on top of each other ('''C''' and '''D''') - do you know why we have two exits, and are we talking another cleanup-tag? No rush, btw - I was just puzzled about it. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:02, 20 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It looks like one door exits to the Fringe, and the other to the Ordered Fringe. Only one will ever be present at a time, so yeah - a cleanup tag seems to be in order. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:27, 20 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Thanks for the reply. I suspected something like that, but since the Gardens are inaccessible until Order is present, the &quot;normal&quot; door should be removed from the map. I'll put up a cleanup-tag. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 18:14, 20 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Robert....Herbert? ==<br /> <br /> D It's so fun to say, Robert Herbert, Robert Herbert, Robert Herbert. :D You have....4 First names. I'm not teasing. I just think it's fun, Like Meet the Fockers. :D Lol. [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 14:52, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The fact that those two rhyme is why I always call myself &quot;Rob&quot;. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:10, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Are you....offended? Sorry. :| [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 15:13, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Not at all. I was just making a comment. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:15, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Hey, it could be worse. We had a guy in grade school whose name was Ronald McDonald. Needless to say, he insisted on being called Ron McDonald, and as he was the class bully, he usually got his way. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == A problem ==<br /> <br /> Hey, it seems with have a problem with the template for the service times. Look at these two NPC's; [[Oblivion:Agnete the Pickled|Agnete the Pickled]] and [[Oblivion:Alga|Alga]]. They both have Shivering Isles inserted along side the template and its all the NPC's with the template on. Could you look into this please?. Thanks [[User:Emoboy64|- Emoboy64]] 20:30, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My bad. I left a test bit of code on there when I added the category and didn't notice. That text will start to disappear now, although it'll take a few minutes. Thanks for pointing it out! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:33, 22 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Question about the sic tags ==<br /> <br /> How was the 3rd sic tag you added put on the daggerfall page as well, especially without it showing it in the history? Im pretty sure it wasnt there when I checked it (though the other 2 were already there, just werent on the lore page). Does changing something on the lore page of a book automatically change it on the relevant game articles as well or something like that?--[[User:Catmaniac66|Catmaniac66]] 12:32, 25 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yup. The Lore book pages are &quot;transcluded&quot; onto the game pages. That means we only need one copy of the main text, but the game page can include information such as price, weight, location etc. It doesn't matter so much in the case of ''Confessions Of A Thief‎'' because it's only used in Daggerfall, but some books are used in three or four games. Take a look at the [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Daggerfall:Confessions_Of_A_Thief&amp;action=edit source] of the DF version and you'll see how it's done. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Dungeon Size ==<br /> <br /> A question that came to my mind, stemmed by [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering:Gardens_of_Flesh_and_Bone&amp;curid=18596&amp;diff=637971&amp;oldid=637153 this edit], was the qualifications of a dungeon being small/medium/large. I believe it is by number of zones, but what are the numbers? --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 21:58, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> : That can be found [[Oblivion:Places#Notes|here.]] [[User:Mxk101|mxk101]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Mxk101|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:16, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks...Huh, never noticed that there... --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 22:23, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: It's easily overlooked. That note was added by [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion%3APlaces&amp;diff=129602&amp;oldid=102132 some total n00b] after he [[Oblivion_talk:Places/Archive_1#Size_Matters|whined about it]] on the talk page :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:41, 26 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RUM! ==<br /> <br /> {| width=&quot;400&quot; style=&quot;border:solid #990000 1px; margin: 1px; background: #ffdddd&quot; cellspacing=0<br /> |[[Image:UESP-reward-Rum.jpg|left]]<br /> Wow and wow! That was 15 schedules on one [[Oblivion:Blind_Moth_Priest|page]], yes? I have followed the progress in your Sandbox with a mixture of fascination and OBNPCRP-related horror, but there is absolutely no doubt that it is my turn to buy you a drink! A brilliant effort!! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:38, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> |}<br /> <br /> Thanks, mate :) I've been meaning to do that page for ages. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:47, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Temple of the Moths ==<br /> <br /> Hello again! While I was following your work on all the blind monks, I took a look at the [[Oblivion:Temple_of_the_Ancestor_Moths|Temple of the Ancestor Moths]] page, and to be honest, it is a mess in its current state. I also noticed that you have related - and unfinished - business in Sandbox5 called [[Oblivion:Monk's Quarters]]. I propose that we split it into two separate pages – a settlement page for the “exterior” with the quarters and the Chapel - and a place page in typical dungeon fashion, which I will “fix” for the OPRP. What do you think? And just in case, should it be a disambig affair or something else? Cheers! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:59, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yeah... that might be the best plan. Otherwise we end up with an irritating hybrid. The settlement page would cover the Moth Shrine too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:04, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Well, if you mean the entire Moth Shrine [[Oblivion:Temple_of_the_Ancestor_Moths#Zone_5:_Shrine_of_The_Moth|zone]], then it might be hard to cover on the settlement page as it is basically a cave with no entrance from the settlement - the well behind the house (the one-way exit) will most definitely be mentioned though. Nevertheless, that's not a problem right now; I'll throw both pages into sandboxes and get to work. :) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:45, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Sorry... typed the wrong thing. I meant the Ancestor Moth Crypt. That and the Monk's Quarters go on the settlement page... maybe the the church itself, although that could really go on either. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:01, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, after spending way too much time on [[Oblivion:Bleak Mine|Bleak Mine]], I have started on the walkthroughs for the dungeon part of the Temple of the Ancestor Moth. One question; in the [[User:Krusty/Sandbox8#Bugs|bugs section]] it seems like there is a small problem, at least according to my observations; when exactly will the quest update? After some testing, activating door C in the [[User:Krusty/Sandbox8#Zone_1:_Ancestor_Moth_Crypt|Ancestor Moth Crypt]] gives the quest update, while the current bugs section seems to point at another door, which is locked by the Catacombs Key (the description is a bit blurry, but I think it is door D, leading to the 3rd zone, the [[User:Krusty/Sandbox8#Zone_3:_Catacombs_of_The_Temple_of_The_Moth|Catacombs]]. Do you know which door is the correct one? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:46, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::As far as I can see, Door C in the Crypt will set the quest to stage 4 but only if stage 20 has been set (ie, you've talked to the Gray Fox). Door D in the Halls ''always'' sets stage 6, which doesn't look like it gives an update. There could be differences between versions here - XBox users always disagree with PC users as to when the inventory for the final monk gets generated, for instance. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:39, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Thanks. I'll try and give it a check; seems like I can simply travel to the Temple with an earlier save and then talk to Meth after receiving the update. Kindda spooky with the differences between versions, though. I might end up writing a note telling players to stay away from that Temple at all times. ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:48, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} This is really weird; just tested the bug with a character that never even joined the guild and ran through the Temple (tried everything we warn about on the different pages) and no bug. When I whined about it on the IRC, Emoboy64 offered to test it as well - he came up with nothing. Either this was fixed somewhere along the line, or we have a very big difference between PS3 (me), Xbox (Emo) and PC. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:53, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Trouble is.... I can't test this. I just went through it at lvl1 and never got an update at all, but that's because I have the UOP installed. Unfortunately my OB install seems largely screwed at the moment - I can't uninstall it and I can't reinstall it. Too much mucking about with different versions, probably. I'm afraid you're on your own here, unless I can work out how to fix it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 03:26, 31 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: No problem! I'll finish the page anyway, warnings included, but we should probably test it at some point, as it is a very serious bug. I'll try and ask a few people for a quick test when I have the time. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Thanks ==<br /> <br /> Thanks for the backup there, wasn't sure what to do about all that. [[User:Masterlocksmith|Masterlocksmith]] 20:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : No problem :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:07, 27 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Suggestion ==<br /> <br /> Seeing as you are...well, the most ACTIVE User on this site....Have you given thought of an application for becoming a Beauracrat? :D I might have spelled this wrong. Lol. [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 18:56, 29 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I thought it too, but Rpeh stated that he doesn't want admin rights. Besides, he already has basic server access. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 19:05, 29 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: There's more to life than having '''teh powah''' on a wiki. The time I put in being a patroller is draining enough. Having been an admin, I know that it's even more draining. I'm not ruling out applying for a larger role in the future, but I'm happy doing what I do right now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:55, 29 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Misnamed Picture ==<br /> <br /> A recent edit ([http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Fort_Istirus&amp;diff=638779&amp;oldid=626507 here]) tried to fix a spelling error but accidentally removed the pic, due to its wrong name ([http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-place-Fort_Istirus_Sancturies.jpg picture]). Can the picture be moved to a properly spelled page? I would rather not revert it back to being wrong to show the picture... --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 03:56, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Done. Just as an FYI, Patrollers and Admins can all move image pages directly without needing to re-upload, so posting on the Admin Noticeboard is probably the best bet. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:25, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Pirates ==<br /> <br /> I didn't see that. Thanks for the catch.<br /> <br /> A problem though, do '''all''' of the Pirate links in the NPC summary link to [[Oblivion:Pirate]]? [[Oblivion:First_Mate_Filch|These]] [[Oblivion:Dead Captain|two]] do anyway. [[User:Mxk101|mxk101]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Mxk101|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:24, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Unfortunately so. There might be a way around it... but not an easy one. I'm playing in a sandbox at the moment. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: There - fixed. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:01, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Copyright Question ==<br /> <br /> Is it possible to add youtube videos to your profile WITHOUT getting the site in trouble? :| [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 17:59, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I don't believe there's a problem with copyright. I've seen it done on other sites. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Compromise? ==<br /> <br /> I know I suggested a place for Bureaucracy. But, you have so much more potential than an ordinary patroller, and you could help the site more, with more benefits, and new and better oppurtunities to improve UESPWiki. <br /> So, by the very least. Administrator? :D [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 17:42, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : If enough people want me to do it, then I'll stand for election. I don't see that happening any time soon, however. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I want you to know that I'll support you if you decide to something like this. You are UESP's best. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:57, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> So...if I get everyone to say yes, you'll accept the nomination? Great. I'll get started. :D [[User:Shianni|Shianni]] 18:25, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Cephorus who? ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh, I have a question about the Cephorus that appears in [[Lore:The Wolf Queen|The Wolf Queen]]. It seems to be Cephorus I (as all the links for him point to the first Cephorus), but then that would be contradictory to his [[Lore:Cephorus#Cephorus_I|description]], since Cephorus I did marry (Queen Bianki). I assume that his Lore:People description is incorrect about the marriage, but I wanted to make sure. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 23:23, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Ah yes, the wonderful contradictions of Septim Lore! See [[Lore:Septim_Dynasty#cite_note-42|this note]] on the Septim Dynasty page for the answer to that little problem. The Lore:People pages need a '''lot''' of work to clean them up. For a start, we can add Cephorus' birthdate of 3E127. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 2 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Ok, so when mentioning Cephorus I in other lore pages, would it be best not to mention Bianki? The lore page I have in mind (as in, the page I'm researching info on), [[Lore:Gilane|Gilane]], doesn't ''need'' her inclusion per say, but it would help the small page. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:07, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: My ''personal'' feeling is that [[Lore:The Madness of Pelagius|The Madness of Pelagius]] is wrong. It dates back to Daggerfall, and has appeared without alteration in each game since. There's definitely one case where DF info was corrected in later games ([[Lore:Brief History of the Empire (Daggerfall)|Brief History of the Empire]] says Pelagius was Tiber Septim's &quot;eldest living son&quot;, but [[Lore:Brief History of the Empire|Brief History of the Empire]] fro MW and OB says Pelagius was Tiber's grandson). I take this to mean that a few tweaks were made in the Lore to fix problems (one of Tiber's other children would have inherited rather than Pelagius, and definitely ahead of Kintyra), and to give the writers escape hatches (in OB we are led to believe that the entire Septim line has been killed, but the existence of other descendants from Cephorus (or others) would mean this might not be the case - and now we have a dragonborn in Skyrim).<br /> ::: There was a discussion ages ago that said Lore pages should try to reflect what a typical well-read NPC would know about the situation, so no &quot;Loredas is Saturday&quot; stuff. Later there was the long, involved and utterly hideous s***storm about Lore sources that's archived [[UESPWiki talk:Lore/Sources for Lore Articles|here]]. You don't have to read that though - just see the final resolution [[UESPWiki_talk:Lore#Once_More_Unto_the_Breach...|here]]. I think the key point in that for this discussion is &quot;Stick to the facts, not interpretation. If in doubt, list all views.&quot;. I imagine you're thinking about a couple of sentences on the succession to Gilane's throne after Cephorus succeeded to the Imperial throne? I think it's fair to say something like &quot;some sources say (marriage, kids, possible succession through them) and others say (no kids, end of line)&quot;. My phrasing might need a little work ;)<br /> ::: It's good to see somebody else interested in Lore here. It's frustrating, but immensely rewarding! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:28, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Hmm, I guess I have to watch out more for these unfortunate contradictions, but a historian's got to do what a historian's got to do. Thanks for all the help rpeh! -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:47, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::You'll note that some contradictions get [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retroactive_continuity retconned] in later releases. In the light of Skyrim's hero being called the Dragonborn, for instance, it's not such a big deal that Mannimarco was able to wear the Amulet of Kings in Oblivion.<br /> :::::To summarise my hideously long previous post: if there's a source for it, mention it. And don't insert your own opinions. The huge Lore debate largely came about because a couple of TIL people wanted to turn our Lore section into a copy of theirs - all speculation included. (Yes, that oversimplifies it, but if you ever do have a couple of hours to read through that whole debate page you'll see what I mean). In the end, as long as UESP sticks to clear sources, we can never be accused of screwing up - only of being misled. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Stick to sources, stay away from opinions, and no speculation, got it ;) -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 01:23, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Sorry for ranting a bit... I re-read part of that big Lore debate and remembered just how pissed off I was at the time. I'll calm down now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:29, 3 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> ::::::I believe that you meant to say Mankar Camoran :) --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:38, 4 February 2011 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> When RoBoT was adding to the cleanup tag to the NPC images it broke most, if not all, of the == Summary == headings. Nothing major just letting you know. [[User:Mxk101|mxk101]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Mxk101|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:10, 3 February 2011 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&diff=625979 2010-12-12T01:53:00Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Spike Video Game Awards */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>{{DISPLAYTITLE:user talk:rpeh}}<br /> {| class=&quot;compress&quot; style=&quot;float:right; background-color: #ddddff; border:solid 3px #9999cc; margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> |-valign=&quot;top&quot;<br /> |__TOC__<br /> |<br /> {|class=&quot;wikitable compress&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> !colspan=4|Archive<br /> |-<br /> |colspan=4 style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |[[User:Rpeh/Cookies|Cookies]] : [[User_talk:Rpeh/Warnings|Warnings]]<br /> |-<br /> !'07||'08||'09||'10<br /> |-<br /> |Jan<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200801|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200901|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201001|Jan]]<br /> |-<br /> |Feb<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200802|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200902|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201002|Feb]]<br /> |-<br /> |Mar<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200803|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200903|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201003|Mar]]<br /> |-<br /> |Apr<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200804|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200904|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201004|Apr]]<br /> |-<br /> |May<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200805|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200905|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201005|May]]<br /> |-<br /> |Jun<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200806|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200906|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201006|Jun]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200707|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200807|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200907|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201007|Jul]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200708|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200808|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200908|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201008|Aug]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200709|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200809|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201009|Sep]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200710|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200810|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201010|Oct]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200711|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200811|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200911|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011|Nov]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200712|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200812|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200912|Dec]]<br /> |Dec<br /> |}<br /> |}<br /> <br /> == Wiki Tables ==<br /> <br /> I was just wondering, does UESPWiki have markup for a hide-able table? I wanted to use one on [[User:DKong27/Sandbox|my Sandbox]] to insert the colors seen on [[User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/2|GK's Sandbox]] without making the page too long. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 00:44, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Well we have the {{tl|Showhide}} template, which works for many things. I keep meaning to copy across WP's table stuff but they've over-complicated things to a really stupid degree and I never get around to it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks, I'll see what I can do with it. Although I may just end up copying into another Sandbox if the page gets too cluttered. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 15:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Huh? ==<br /> <br /> Hey there, I was just checking out the beautiful new pages on the magic schools and I noticed that on the [[Lore:Conjuration|Conjuration page]], there appears to be a list of books in the middle of the article... Is that intentional? --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Oops! Thanks for pointing those out. I might work them into the article later, but don't need 'em for now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Trail ==<br /> <br /> Just cos I know you were working on them, I'm letting you know I prodded ''Template:Shivering NPC Trail'', since I used &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Trail|People}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; instead and created the [[:Category:Shivering-People|relevant category]]... Hope this doesn't screw up any plans you had; the only changes is that the trail &quot;Shivering:People&quot; doesn't show up on the disambig Split pages. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Good stuff. Not sure why I hadn't done that one myself. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:29, 4 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vampire stuff ==<br /> <br /> You mentioned [[Oblivion talk:Vampire#rpeh's Health/Magicka edits|here]] that we needed to find a better way to display the health and magicka values for vampires... Well, I gave it a shot [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Vampire&amp;diff=623758&amp;oldid=623470 here]. Basically made the text small and tinkered about with % x column to wrap more on spells and inventory and give more space for health and magicka... What say you? --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:14, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Much better, although I think there's too much space to the left of each formula. Probably best to skip the wiki syntax and use &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; tags instead. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hmmm, so you'd prefer to have the formulas right up to the borders? It looks a bit weird without bullets, and it looks terrible with bullets... In any case, you do know what this means, don't you? *wink wink* :P --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I've tweaked it so it's centered. I think that's the best we're going to get without a total redesign. My concern is that there needs to be some way of linking the id on the left with the formulae on the right, or otherwise it looks random. With the small text, it all fits on one line (on my screen) so it's better than it was, although I realise many people will have much narrower windows. Anyway, if the *winking* was meant to be a way of asking me to fill in the other formulae, I remind you that you can do it yourself now, with [[:File:NPC StatGen.zip|this]] ;-) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Ohhh, that's nice :) Didn't now that was up! I'll tinker about with it myself then. As for the changes - they look perfect, everything aligned on my screen. As a side note, I've been having a hard time deciphering the various scripts revolving around [[User:SerCenKing/Sandbox/2|Gundlar]], and in particular concerning the meal he is supposed to serve. If you could drop in [[User_talk:Krusty#Gundlar|here]] I'd much appreciate :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Enjoy that program! It ''seems'' to be okay but it's possible the odd bug might still be around.<br /> :::::Re Gundlar: Krusty already mentioned that one to me in IRC. I'll take a look now - I'm waiting for The Ashes to come on. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:55, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::If we do decide to go for a total redesign (now or in the future), I played around with some formats in [[User:RobinHood70/Vav|my sandbox]]. Not sure if I like any of them, but maybe they'll spark some other ideas. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I'm not quite sure those work either. I suspect something like [[Morrowind:Undead]], with separate rows for each different type of creature and rowspans where the data is the same, is the way to go. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Those are certainly cleaner-looking than the Oblivion ones or any of mine. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:25, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Strange stuff ==<br /> <br /> Can you check out [[User:Rigas_Papadopoulos|this page]] or his talk page and see if you get a &quot;new messages&quot; sign? It's only happening when I go to that page and the last message I have was months ago. I informed him but thought I'd let you know, as you probably have an idea on what it is, whereas I don't.[[User:Mikeyboy52|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:0.9; font-size:16pt ;color:red; font-family:Oblivion,Serif&quot;&gt;Mike&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mikeyboy52|&lt;span style=&quot;color:royalblue; line-height:0; font-size:8pt; vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : He's hard-coded the New Messages box onto his user and talk pages. He's not the [[User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God|only one]]. Don't worry about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Edit conflicts ==<br /> <br /> Now I know I would have been a good Recent Changes Patroller, if I had more time to devote to it. After I fixed that Hackdirt edit, I looked at Recent Changes and saw your name on the edit, rather than mine, although the edit Note and everything were the same. Funny I didn't notice any edit conflict come up. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 00:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : You should consider doing it - you can spend as much time as you have available. If your edit was the same as mine (and I guess we both did exactly the same thing) then you won't be notified of a conflict. I've had this several times on Wikipedia when I've reverted vandalism. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:13, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Yeah, my edit was identical I guess. I figured out how to bring up the version from before the two edits and clicked the Edit button from there. My edit note was a little longer than yours though. It started out the same as yours and had a few more words tacked on the end. I hesitated to become a Patroller when I was nominated before, because I did not have Oblivion. Since then, I picked up a GOTY version for $10, but I have not installed it yet. That will be on my list of things to do later this month. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 00:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Exactly how I did it - the software won't worry about the edit summary. Don't worry about Oblivion - a MW-specific patroller would be very useful, because otherwise it tends to come down to me. I think everyone would welcome a Daggerfall-only patroller! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: You beat me again. I even used the word &quot;transclusion&quot; in my own edit summary :P --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 16:08, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: You beat me with one yesterday afternoon. It seems great minds think alike :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Golden Saint Statistics ==<br /> <br /> Hi, sorry to fill up your talk page, but seeing you're the most active &quot;authority figure&quot; on the site, I'd figure it necessary to ask for your opinion on the results of my work on the Golden Saint Statistics, found [[User:Dwarfmp/Sandbox|here]]. All the statistics should be complete and correct. I believe that images from in-game should be added, which I'd like to do myself, and brief descriptions should be added as well. Other than that, any suggestions, or is there something I didn't do right? ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 00:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Wow, that looks great! A huge improvement over what we've got. Suddenly all the sandbox edits I've seen make sense - I hadn't looked at the page until now. I'm not going to check it fully right now as it's late and I'm only awake to watch the cricket, but a couple of things stand out.<br /> <br /> : First, I'd use some subheadings. At the moment it's one huge page, and finding individual entries is very difficult. Useing &quot;===&quot; or &quot;====&quot; headings will split the page up and let the table of contents help navigation.<br /> <br /> : Second, one or two tables have a minor formatting error where the bottom line isn't appearing. This is usually caused by a missing cell or something similar. The tables after &quot;Eleven dead Golden Saints found outside and inside Brellach during The Helpless Army:&quot; and &quot;Four dead Golden Saint Warriors inside Brellach during The Helpless Army, who will be revived through progressing:&quot; have this problem. It's a tiny point, but always worth fixing.<br /> <br /> : Third, only 5 of the tables have non-standard spells. Instead of listing the same spell info in each box, it might be better to ditch that column and put a &quot;†&quot; or similar marker by the rows with different values, then have a footnote explaining the difference. This would probably mean that every row fits on one line, and would probably be easier to read.<br /> <br /> : Otherwise... again, a great job! Thank you! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hey, sorry to contact you on a late hour again, but I've worked on the issues you had last time, though I don't understand what you mean with the formatting errors. Anyway, I'm having a bit of a problem writing a summary about a particular kind of Golden Saint, which I have discussed [[User talk:Krusty#Male Golden Saints in Brellach during The Helpless Army|here]]. Perhaps you may know more than we do? ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 23:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I'm afraid I was already in the sweet embrace of Morpheus... or at least, trying to persuade him to give me a hug. I'll reply on Krusty's talk page to keep things in one place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Changes on Different Servers ==<br /> <br /> Not exactly a problem, but I am confused about something. I made an edit to [[User:DKong27/Sandbox/2|my Sandbox]] earlier. Just a bit ago I typed in the URL starting &lt;nowiki&gt;http://uesp.net...&lt;/nowiki&gt; and it showed up as the old version. Content1, Content2, and Content3, and even www. all showed the new version. Why would this be? --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 15:13, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure why uesp.net and www.uesp.net would show different versions, because they're the same server. It's more likely to be a caching issue with your browser, to be honest. There are occasionally caching issues between the different content servers, but ''usually'' waiting a little will sort them out. If not, purging the page will do the trick. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Could be the browser...I'm at school and they have their network connected funny. Making easy things look complicated. I miss my Firefox add-ons. :( --[[Special:Contributions/216.56.62.4|216.56.62.4]] 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Minor Issue ==<br /> <br /> You may want to help over [[User talk:Dwarfmp#A bit of help needed...|here]]. Nothing serious, but it would be good to know. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 16:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Answered over there. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Daedric Banners ==<br /> <br /> I noticed that several users, including yourself, have Daedric banners with their names on at their userpages. How can someone obtain one? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:30, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I did mine myself. [[User:Eshe|Eshe]] did hers, [[User:GK|GK]]'s and a couple of others, I think. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: How? Is there any sort of program or something? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I just used Paintshop to do mine. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 17:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Me too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Thanks! ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh! Just a thank you for all the link past disambig edits; I merely saved the new disambig page, then it knocked on the door and I had visitors - so I had to take a break for editing for 30 minutes. Anyway, I think it was the right thing to do as it seemed strange to have a creature page and a quest page with the exact same name - and the creature page already had the (creature) added to the page name. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : No problem. I was surprised how many there were though. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Me too. When I clicked on &quot;what links here&quot; I thought; ''&quot;oh my god&quot;''. Anyway, another quick question: a LOT of pages states that The Sunken One can be encountered before the quest is initiated. I just tested it, and it does not happen in my GotY version; only way to encounter the Sunken One is by starting the quest. Is this some kind of &quot;unpatched and old&quot; information that we should get rid of - or do you know anything to back up the statements on the various pages? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Doesn't seem possible to me. The Sunken One is always present, but disabled until you pick up [[Oblivion:Slythe's Journal, page 3|Slythe's Journal, page 3]]. That's on Slythe's body, and he isn't enabled until you start the quest. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Gotcha. I'll remove the info from the pages. I'll check the &quot;respawning&quot;-thing of The Sunken One later on. Thanks once again! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Jakben revisited ==<br /> <br /> Yeah, I know we buried him, but I have just followed him around and watched him do some very unexpected things, and I’m not really able to tell what is going on, so here I am. First of all; is it true that he will wander around the Talos Plaza District (10pm-2am) on Loredas?&lt;br&gt;<br /> Here comes the odd one; at 6am, I noticed that he went ahead and threw me out of the house, which always means that some package activates. Loading game, then followed him down into the basement, where he disappeared. Loading game, waiting for him in the basement. He came down there just after 6am and '''entered''' the Catacombs!!! These observations were made without the quest being initiated at all, but him venturing into the basement without a key does not really match our discoveries from earlier. As I’m unable to enter the Catacombs without the key, I was wondering if you could try locating him using the console? This is REALLY strange, but at least it proves (and I say this carefully) that I’m not a complete idiot for not being able to find him (very first question [[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011#Boots_of_Springheel_Jak|here]]). Anyway, for comfort, I moved all your CS observations about his schedule to [[User:Krusty/Sandbox6#CS_stuff_from_rpeh|this location]]. Hopefully, you can find the time and test this; the torture never stops! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Oh, and just to include every observation; I waited for him in the basement and he returned from the Catacombs at 6pm. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Dammit, I thought we'd cracked this one. The only day-specific package he has is his 10pm-2am wander around the Talos Plaza package on Morndas, Middas and Fredas, although obviously that does spill over into Loredas on one day.<br /> :: The other one: his sleep package runs from 6am to 6pm located in the basement. Except it's a wander package and there's no bed. It's odd that he can get through the door - I'll see if I can give it a test to see what happens. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:37, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MW Drain Intelligence glitch ==<br /> <br /> I noticed that Sethiel added a bunch of notes related to Draining Intellegence to permanently gain Magicka. In my opinion, that glitch does not belong on the pages it was added to, and should only be mentioned on the glitch page. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 14:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Was that what it was about? TBH, I saw all the formulae and closed the page. If that's what it was, then yes it should only be on the glitches page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I will remove them then. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 14:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == OPRP question ==<br /> <br /> Okay, I have thought this through and I figured I would take a bit of responsibility for the deceased OPRP project - but to do so, I really need your help; or rather, RoBot's help, if it is even possible. As I have stumbled upon some terrible pages with the OPRP tag removed, I was wondering if it would be possible to make some sort of Category for pages '''completed''' by the OPRP? Merely a list of Places without the OPRP-tag, somewhat resembling the Final Review-section of the ONPCRP. I know that the pages gets updated (on rare occasions), but I will personally add them to the Category if needed. But first of all; is it even possible to make such a Category? Oh, and I thought about posting this on the CP or AN, but given the amount of interest in the project, I ended up here - we really need to get rid of this mess now. Hope you can find the time to help and forgive me if such a Category already exist; I have looked everywhere. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yeah I can do that, but how about making it a little more OBNPCRP-like? I could change the current template to add a &quot;written&quot; param - or even &quot;written&quot; and &quot;checked&quot;, if you like, and have the template hide itself if the params are filled in. Then we can have categories for all the possible states. Or do you just want the category? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I prefer the OBNPCRP type. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: {{ec}} Well, if it is not too much trouble, then I think it is a brilliant idea - but it seems like an impossible task to figure out ''who'' wrote ''what'' at this point? Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the project is a mess and I think we should make an effort to get it back on track, ultimately without too much discussion on the AN or CP or the project page, as there is really not much to discuss. If we can make it just a bit more like the ONPCRP, then the project might attract newer editors (I just deleted a whole lot of painfully inactive project members), and maybe we can finally take off all the tags and, with a whole lot of effort, make the pages consistent. Any help would be appreciated - but some kind of Final Review-stage is definitely essential, given the amount of odd contributions and incomplete/useless walkthroughs. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, since it's a one-shot template really, I'll add a &quot;writtenby&quot; param only. If the param is blank or missing, the page will go into [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Needing Cleanup]] as normal. If it's filled in, it'll go in [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Checking]] instead. I'll run it in a few mins so post quickly if you don't like that! ;) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:21, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: At the moment, it seems like RoBot is including the Castle pages as well. Is that intentional? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Dammit, no. I've removed Guild halls, buildings, stables, settlements, inns, store, landmarks and houses... but I forgot castles. Just revert those. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Seems like camps and chapels have the tag as well - revert manually? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Camps I left deliberately because I don't think they've ever been &quot;officially&quot; written. Chapels... yeah. Kill those too. Sorry about this. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} No problem at all. And good ideas with the camps - most of these pages need an overhaul anyway! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Okay, unless I forgot a few places, I have reverted all tags from irrelevant pages. Looks good to me! Of course, this new strategy should be included somewhere on the OPRP project page, as it should be made clear that a page is '''not''' finished until a second editor have at least read through the page (or should it be checked once more in-game?) and checked that all the information is correct - and then the hidden tag can finally be removed. I guess my next task is to read through '''all''' the &quot;OPRP pages needs checking&quot; pages for overly incomplete walkthroughs and then add the OPRP tag all over again. Are there any way to change the OPRP tag to say &quot;Needs walkthroughs and in-game verification&quot;? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Sure - just change the message on the {{tl|cleanup-oprp}} template. Unless you mean you want another message rather than hiding the template? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: It depends. What is the easiest way to inform people that the page is incomplete until it has been read through and checked? Personally, I'm sick and tired of the tags, so I kindda like that they are hidden - on the other hand, it needs a thorough explanation on the project page with a link to the Category. Let's see how it goes with this technique as I'd hate to see the tags back on the pages - I'll dedicate my free time for the next couple of days to read through the written pages and maybe even add the author - that shouldn't be so hard, although it will be a bit time-consuming. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Back from work with another question: Looking at the new Needs-Checking Category, it seems like a lot of Camps have found their way to that page. Any reason for that? In my honest opinion, 90% of these pages needs a rewrite (and some love), so shouldn't they be in the &quot;ordinary&quot; OPRP Category? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: The basic idea was that any place page without a cleanup-oprp tag had been &quot;done&quot; and the tag removed. Since the camps didn't have the tag, they got the &quot;writtenby=Unknown&quot; param, which marks them as done. Maybe not a great idea, now I think about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: No worries, I can correct them when I go through the list. Speaking of, we might want to set an example for Camp pages and what they should contain. A lot of Shivering Isles camps are a lot more detailed than the OB ones, so it shouldn't be too hard finding inspiration. But that might be a discussion worth taking on the CP. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I just read through each and every one of the Camp pages and found one(!) good page. It is [[Shivering:Blood_Island_Camp|this one]]. It contains a bit of nice info about the surroundings (the &quot;love&quot; I was talking about), info on respawning containers and even lists nearby plants, which I think is cool. What is your opinion on a page like this? Does it need additional info? A table for the plants? I'm asking because I am trying to set up the before mentioned example before taking this to the CP. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 00:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Campsites seem to have been a bit neglected in the past, but I suppose the other place types are rather more important.<br /> :::::::: I'm honestly not sure of the best way to do ingredients. Pages like [[Oblivion:Shetcombe Farm|Shetcombe Farm]] look odd, somehow. Perhaps the headline followed by a thin table isn't the best way to do it. On the other hand, I just found that we don't even list ingredients at [[Oblivion:Whitmond Farm|Whitmond Farm]] or [[Oblivion:Odiil Farm|Odiil Farm]] so it looks like we have the opportunity to come up with a good layout and use it everywhere. Isn't this great? We were all running out of things to do, after all... :/ [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing - good thing that we are really bored without much to do around here! ;) Anyway, I [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering%3ABlood_Island_Camp&amp;diff=625336&amp;oldid=625132 added] the authors name to said camp and wanted to make sure, before I go through each and every dungeon page doing the exact same thing, that this is the way it is supposed to be done? Do I need the link to the author or is it enough with just writtenby=SerCenKing, as opposed to a full link? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Doesn't really matter just as long as we're consistent. I suppose since the template auto-hides as soon as the name is put in, just the name would do, but we're probably so used to putting in a full link that we'll end up doing that anyway. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:04, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Hello again! Nice new project you have created - looking forward to follow the progress! Anyway, one final request and then I'll leave this talk page alone - or at least this topic. After [[User_talk:SerCenKing#A_bit_of_help_with_Relmyna.3F|talking]] with SerCenKing - and after my recent [[User:Krusty/Sandbox|spree]] through all Place pages from A to E, it seems like a very good idea to add a &quot;checkedby=&quot;-param to the existing OPRP-tag. Of course, I looked at the Template and quickly realized that I have absolutely no idea how to do that, so better safe than sorry. As mentioned elsewhere, I think a third Category (listing the pages with checkedby= filled out) would be a great idea, making the OPRP so much easier to cope with, so I really hope you can find the time and add this final param to the Template and create the needed Category. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Okay, done (I hope): there's now a &quot;checkedby&quot; param. If both params are filled in, the template is hidden and pages go into the [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Final Review|Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Final Review]] category. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Thank you so much! What happens next is that I'll try and find an agreement with SerC about what needs to be done in the &quot;checking&quot;-phase. It shouldn't really be necessary for another User to go through an entire five-zone dungeon to mark a walkthrough as &quot;checked&quot; - maybe just a thorough comparison between the map and the walkthrough, a bit of what you did on [[Shivering:Aichan|Aichan]] recently. Thanks again! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == I Know You've Probably Blocked This Out of You Mind But... ==<br /> <br /> The Userify-ing system for roleplaying has reached the three month mark and is up for review. Just wanted to let you know.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 17:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Job for RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> I have a new job for RoBoT, to replace all the manual quest links at the &quot;Related Quests&quot; sections with links that use the [[Template:Quest Link|Quest Link]] template. What do you think? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Nice idea, but it'd be quite tricky to write. I might give it a go at some point, but I'm not sure it's worth it for only a few pages (if any). [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I've seen many pages that do this, especially at Morrowind namespace. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 20:59, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Well maybe I'll take a look then. It's not easy though. Probably easier to generate a list then fix them by hand. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Sounds good. RoBoT will make a list and we (I if you don't want to) will fix them. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 21:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == PC Help ==<br /> <br /> I just acquired Oblivion for PC and I was wondering if there is a way to switch out of the game window while playing. It would make it easier to look up codes and what not. I hope it isn't really obvious, since it took me like 15 minutes to realize that the Start Menu is Esc...so not used to PC games. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 03:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I can't switch out of the window. If it happens, when I go back in the game window, the game is frozen and the only thing I can do is turn around. Literally everything in the game is frozen, nothing moves. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 06:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: In theory, ALT-TAB or CTRL-ESC should switch you out of the game. In practice, the game will probably crash. I've learned to use one computer for playing the game and another to surf the wiki. Or, if I'm trying to save electricity, I use a pen and paper instead of the second computer. You wouldn't believe how many old envelopes get covered with strange, 8-character hex sequences! If the security services ever go through my rubbish, they're going to assume I'm a foreign agent or something. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I have a small technical problem, sometimes when I close Oblivion, instead of just exiting, a message comes up saying that Oblivion encountered a problem and had to close. Any ideas? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I get the same thing. In my case it happens after I install more than about 15 mods, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I personally don't use much mods (only one not made by me, Midas). However, this was happening even when I was playing vanilla, no mods, official plugins and Shivering Isles. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::This error message, -program in question- has encountered a problem, is not exclusive to Oblivion. It basicly states that the application that was running failed to meet the normal end-program code but yet still ended. Any unsaved data, or data in the midsts of saving, is lost. I have gotten this message on, Internet Explorer, Spore, FallOut 3, FO3NV, Oblivion, Civilization 4, VLC media player, maybe more. It happens more often when multiple programs are running.--[[Special:Contributions/184.59.231.111|184.59.231.111]] 07:45, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I thought about that too, but it happens only at my Oblivion, so it bugged me. It happens no matter if I have other programs running or not. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::Also happens frequently while opening and closing processer heavy applications, IE Oblivion (or 24 internet tabs). Hitting ALT F4 closes the game and causes the message to appear for me every time for all my Bethseda games and some others too (having mods for them increases the likelyhood of this occurrence). It is nothing to fret over.--[[Special:Contributions/184.59.231.111|184.59.231.111]] 08:07, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I've had great success by hitting Esc so that the game is paused and then Alt-TAB out, look at my local files and stuff (WINDOWS is not connected to the net) and then Alt-TAB back to Oblivion and Esc to unpause the game. WINDOWS is Vista. As for the crash when closing, it happens occasionally when I quit the game, not very often. -- MartinS [[Special:Contributions/92.254.208.123|92.254.208.123]] 20:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Etymology ==<br /> <br /> Hi, Rpeh. Is it acceptable to have etymology sections in articles on NPCs? [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 17:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The criteria we've developed over time is that an etymology has to be relevant to a character's role in some way. So, for instance we mention that &quot;Skjorta&quot; means &quot;shirt&quot; because she's a clothes seller. Everything else should go on the [[Lore:Etymology]] page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I see, thank you. The one that sprang to mind was Amiable Fanriene, whose first name is also a word meaning a person of meek or mild disposition, and also someone who is agreeable and easily persuaded. I though that was particulary fitting, given his somewhat cowardly nature. [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 11:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Imperial City Picture ==<br /> <br /> How did you got a picture with all cells loaded? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 11:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The [http://www.oblivionmodwiki.com/index.php/RAEVWD Really Almost Everything Viewable When Distant] mod. It really makes the game look stunning, but can melt your processor if you're not careful. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:26, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Thanks. And a funny small unrelated thing, Ratwar confused accounts with IPs many times. See [[User talk:Dr Jones#User Page|here]], [[User talk:Rpeh/Warnings#Warning|here]], [[User talk:RoBoT/Warnings|here]], [[User talk:Leadgeneration|here]], [[User_talk:Oblivionisfly#Recent comments|here]], [[User_talk:NathanTHipgrave#Warning|here]] and [[User talk:DaNaeu7|here]]. There are many other cases, but I am too bored to write them all. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes I know. He wasn't very careful about that kind of thing. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: True. I know he put the hell ot of you with all those sockpuppet and personal attack stuff. He was a good editor, but he did not returned. You did. I don't know why I am bringing this matter up again, I just have a need to express my feelings about the situation (archives are not supposed to be edited, so...). --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 23:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Okay, thank you. Can we stop there though? I'd rather not bring everything up again. It's all water under the bridge now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:03, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Yup, I'll stop. My needs are satisfied now. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 23:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spike Video Game Awards ==<br /> <br /> [[UESPWiki:News/Skyrim Spike]] &amp;ndash; Is there any way I could prepare this for the Main Page? --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:40, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Sorry, you're faster than I am. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:41, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: E/Ced etc. I used a different title because it's important to keep titles to the relevant words: Spike will be forgotten within a day, but the fact that TESV is released will be with us for the next 5 years. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:49, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Right. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:52, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:News&diff=625969 2010-12-12T01:43:57Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Skyrim */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>is there anything official about the fighters mod for oblivion on the xbox360. i have seen nothing on xboxlive, but i keep catching hints about it. if anyone has information regarding this, please let me know...thanks<br /> <br /> ''Question moved to [[User talk:212.64.93.211]]'' --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:34, 21 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == The latest news about Oblivion possibly getting new content... ==<br /> <br /> I'm not much for editing these things so I'll add this to the discussion page and hopefully someone who does this regularly will see it. Someone would probably just have to some along and clean up my mess anyway.<br /> <br /> Here's what Gstaff (Bethesda employee) had to say about it in a topic on the official forums.<br /> <br /> Hi there<br /> To clarify, we don't have any plans for new content for Oblivion, but like Pete said, there are some plans to do something with Oblivion. When I have more information, I'll share it with you guys.<br /> <br /> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&amp;showtopic=977563&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=14139678<br /> <br /> Something could be anything. For instance, the half off DLC promotion we did a few weeks ago was something. There's nothing in the interview that points to new DLC -- Fighter's Stronghold was the last one. Sorry if we got your hopes up.<br /> <br /> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&amp;showtopic=978976&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=14152597<br /> --[[User:75.80.85.65|75.80.85.65]] 20:23, 20 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Elder Scrolls Novel ==<br /> So if a novel of the Elder Scrolls is released, will the full details of the novel (character, setting, plot etc.) be documented on the wiki, or will it be treated more as fan fiction?--[[User:81.158.56.153|81.158.56.153]] 15:10, 27 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> : If it's supported by Bethesda, then it's canon. We will obviously not be hosting the text, but quotes should count as &quot;fair use&quot; for expanding articles. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 27 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Announce when the games are on sale on Steam? ==<br /> <br /> As I post this Morrowind is on sale for $4.99, and all Bethesda games until the 3rd are discounted.<br /> <br /> By the time it gets added to the main page, the sale will probably have passed, but it may be worth noting. -[[User:Nesskid|Nesskid]] 00:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Misnamed news?==<br /> <br /> I'm not sure if I misread the article but the title of the latest news (June 3rd 2010) seems to be inaccurate, as the article does not confirm that there will be no news at E3. Or maybe I am just being pedantic! --[[User:Kvaener|Kvaener]] 17:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Yes, I messed up when I posted it but [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] fixed the title and it's [[UESPWiki:News/News at E3 After All|fine now]]. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Skyrim ==<br /> <br /> Announced at Spike Video Games Awards. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :&lt;s&gt;[[UESPWiki:News/Skyrim Spike]]&lt;/s&gt; &amp;ndash; Awaiting YouTube / news article to link to. Twitter is all over this right now. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::[[UESPWiki:News/TES V Announced]] &amp;ndash; rpeh does it better than I do. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:43, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&diff=625966 2010-12-12T01:41:32Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Spike Video Game Awards */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>{{DISPLAYTITLE:user talk:rpeh}}<br /> {| class=&quot;compress&quot; style=&quot;float:right; background-color: #ddddff; border:solid 3px #9999cc; margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> |-valign=&quot;top&quot;<br /> |__TOC__<br /> |<br /> {|class=&quot;wikitable compress&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> !colspan=4|Archive<br /> |-<br /> |colspan=4 style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |[[User:Rpeh/Cookies|Cookies]] : [[User_talk:Rpeh/Warnings|Warnings]]<br /> |-<br /> !'07||'08||'09||'10<br /> |-<br /> |Jan<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200801|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200901|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201001|Jan]]<br /> |-<br /> |Feb<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200802|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200902|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201002|Feb]]<br /> |-<br /> |Mar<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200803|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200903|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201003|Mar]]<br /> |-<br /> |Apr<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200804|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200904|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201004|Apr]]<br /> |-<br /> |May<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200805|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200905|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201005|May]]<br /> |-<br /> |Jun<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200806|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200906|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201006|Jun]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200707|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200807|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200907|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201007|Jul]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200708|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200808|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200908|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201008|Aug]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200709|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200809|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201009|Sep]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200710|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200810|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201010|Oct]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200711|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200811|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200911|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011|Nov]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200712|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200812|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200912|Dec]]<br /> |Dec<br /> |}<br /> |}<br /> <br /> == Wiki Tables ==<br /> <br /> I was just wondering, does UESPWiki have markup for a hide-able table? I wanted to use one on [[User:DKong27/Sandbox|my Sandbox]] to insert the colors seen on [[User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/2|GK's Sandbox]] without making the page too long. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 00:44, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Well we have the {{tl|Showhide}} template, which works for many things. I keep meaning to copy across WP's table stuff but they've over-complicated things to a really stupid degree and I never get around to it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks, I'll see what I can do with it. Although I may just end up copying into another Sandbox if the page gets too cluttered. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 15:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Huh? ==<br /> <br /> Hey there, I was just checking out the beautiful new pages on the magic schools and I noticed that on the [[Lore:Conjuration|Conjuration page]], there appears to be a list of books in the middle of the article... Is that intentional? --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Oops! Thanks for pointing those out. I might work them into the article later, but don't need 'em for now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Trail ==<br /> <br /> Just cos I know you were working on them, I'm letting you know I prodded ''Template:Shivering NPC Trail'', since I used &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Trail|People}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; instead and created the [[:Category:Shivering-People|relevant category]]... Hope this doesn't screw up any plans you had; the only changes is that the trail &quot;Shivering:People&quot; doesn't show up on the disambig Split pages. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Good stuff. Not sure why I hadn't done that one myself. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:29, 4 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vampire stuff ==<br /> <br /> You mentioned [[Oblivion talk:Vampire#rpeh's Health/Magicka edits|here]] that we needed to find a better way to display the health and magicka values for vampires... Well, I gave it a shot [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Vampire&amp;diff=623758&amp;oldid=623470 here]. Basically made the text small and tinkered about with % x column to wrap more on spells and inventory and give more space for health and magicka... What say you? --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:14, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Much better, although I think there's too much space to the left of each formula. Probably best to skip the wiki syntax and use &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; tags instead. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hmmm, so you'd prefer to have the formulas right up to the borders? It looks a bit weird without bullets, and it looks terrible with bullets... In any case, you do know what this means, don't you? *wink wink* :P --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I've tweaked it so it's centered. I think that's the best we're going to get without a total redesign. My concern is that there needs to be some way of linking the id on the left with the formulae on the right, or otherwise it looks random. With the small text, it all fits on one line (on my screen) so it's better than it was, although I realise many people will have much narrower windows. Anyway, if the *winking* was meant to be a way of asking me to fill in the other formulae, I remind you that you can do it yourself now, with [[:File:NPC StatGen.zip|this]] ;-) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Ohhh, that's nice :) Didn't now that was up! I'll tinker about with it myself then. As for the changes - they look perfect, everything aligned on my screen. As a side note, I've been having a hard time deciphering the various scripts revolving around [[User:SerCenKing/Sandbox/2|Gundlar]], and in particular concerning the meal he is supposed to serve. If you could drop in [[User_talk:Krusty#Gundlar|here]] I'd much appreciate :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Enjoy that program! It ''seems'' to be okay but it's possible the odd bug might still be around.<br /> :::::Re Gundlar: Krusty already mentioned that one to me in IRC. I'll take a look now - I'm waiting for The Ashes to come on. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:55, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::If we do decide to go for a total redesign (now or in the future), I played around with some formats in [[User:RobinHood70/Vav|my sandbox]]. Not sure if I like any of them, but maybe they'll spark some other ideas. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I'm not quite sure those work either. I suspect something like [[Morrowind:Undead]], with separate rows for each different type of creature and rowspans where the data is the same, is the way to go. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Those are certainly cleaner-looking than the Oblivion ones or any of mine. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:25, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Strange stuff ==<br /> <br /> Can you check out [[User:Rigas_Papadopoulos|this page]] or his talk page and see if you get a &quot;new messages&quot; sign? It's only happening when I go to that page and the last message I have was months ago. I informed him but thought I'd let you know, as you probably have an idea on what it is, whereas I don't.[[User:Mikeyboy52|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:0.9; font-size:16pt ;color:red; font-family:Oblivion,Serif&quot;&gt;Mike&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mikeyboy52|&lt;span style=&quot;color:royalblue; line-height:0; font-size:8pt; vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : He's hard-coded the New Messages box onto his user and talk pages. He's not the [[User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God|only one]]. Don't worry about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Edit conflicts ==<br /> <br /> Now I know I would have been a good Recent Changes Patroller, if I had more time to devote to it. After I fixed that Hackdirt edit, I looked at Recent Changes and saw your name on the edit, rather than mine, although the edit Note and everything were the same. Funny I didn't notice any edit conflict come up. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 00:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : You should consider doing it - you can spend as much time as you have available. If your edit was the same as mine (and I guess we both did exactly the same thing) then you won't be notified of a conflict. I've had this several times on Wikipedia when I've reverted vandalism. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:13, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Yeah, my edit was identical I guess. I figured out how to bring up the version from before the two edits and clicked the Edit button from there. My edit note was a little longer than yours though. It started out the same as yours and had a few more words tacked on the end. I hesitated to become a Patroller when I was nominated before, because I did not have Oblivion. Since then, I picked up a GOTY version for $10, but I have not installed it yet. That will be on my list of things to do later this month. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 00:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Exactly how I did it - the software won't worry about the edit summary. Don't worry about Oblivion - a MW-specific patroller would be very useful, because otherwise it tends to come down to me. I think everyone would welcome a Daggerfall-only patroller! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: You beat me again. I even used the word &quot;transclusion&quot; in my own edit summary :P --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 16:08, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: You beat me with one yesterday afternoon. It seems great minds think alike :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Golden Saint Statistics ==<br /> <br /> Hi, sorry to fill up your talk page, but seeing you're the most active &quot;authority figure&quot; on the site, I'd figure it necessary to ask for your opinion on the results of my work on the Golden Saint Statistics, found [[User:Dwarfmp/Sandbox|here]]. All the statistics should be complete and correct. I believe that images from in-game should be added, which I'd like to do myself, and brief descriptions should be added as well. Other than that, any suggestions, or is there something I didn't do right? ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 00:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Wow, that looks great! A huge improvement over what we've got. Suddenly all the sandbox edits I've seen make sense - I hadn't looked at the page until now. I'm not going to check it fully right now as it's late and I'm only awake to watch the cricket, but a couple of things stand out.<br /> <br /> : First, I'd use some subheadings. At the moment it's one huge page, and finding individual entries is very difficult. Useing &quot;===&quot; or &quot;====&quot; headings will split the page up and let the table of contents help navigation.<br /> <br /> : Second, one or two tables have a minor formatting error where the bottom line isn't appearing. This is usually caused by a missing cell or something similar. The tables after &quot;Eleven dead Golden Saints found outside and inside Brellach during The Helpless Army:&quot; and &quot;Four dead Golden Saint Warriors inside Brellach during The Helpless Army, who will be revived through progressing:&quot; have this problem. It's a tiny point, but always worth fixing.<br /> <br /> : Third, only 5 of the tables have non-standard spells. Instead of listing the same spell info in each box, it might be better to ditch that column and put a &quot;†&quot; or similar marker by the rows with different values, then have a footnote explaining the difference. This would probably mean that every row fits on one line, and would probably be easier to read.<br /> <br /> : Otherwise... again, a great job! Thank you! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hey, sorry to contact you on a late hour again, but I've worked on the issues you had last time, though I don't understand what you mean with the formatting errors. Anyway, I'm having a bit of a problem writing a summary about a particular kind of Golden Saint, which I have discussed [[User talk:Krusty#Male Golden Saints in Brellach during The Helpless Army|here]]. Perhaps you may know more than we do? ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 23:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I'm afraid I was already in the sweet embrace of Morpheus... or at least, trying to persuade him to give me a hug. I'll reply on Krusty's talk page to keep things in one place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Changes on Different Servers ==<br /> <br /> Not exactly a problem, but I am confused about something. I made an edit to [[User:DKong27/Sandbox/2|my Sandbox]] earlier. Just a bit ago I typed in the URL starting &lt;nowiki&gt;http://uesp.net...&lt;/nowiki&gt; and it showed up as the old version. Content1, Content2, and Content3, and even www. all showed the new version. Why would this be? --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 15:13, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure why uesp.net and www.uesp.net would show different versions, because they're the same server. It's more likely to be a caching issue with your browser, to be honest. There are occasionally caching issues between the different content servers, but ''usually'' waiting a little will sort them out. If not, purging the page will do the trick. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Could be the browser...I'm at school and they have their network connected funny. Making easy things look complicated. I miss my Firefox add-ons. :( --[[Special:Contributions/216.56.62.4|216.56.62.4]] 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Minor Issue ==<br /> <br /> You may want to help over [[User talk:Dwarfmp#A bit of help needed...|here]]. Nothing serious, but it would be good to know. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 16:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Answered over there. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Daedric Banners ==<br /> <br /> I noticed that several users, including yourself, have Daedric banners with their names on at their userpages. How can someone obtain one? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:30, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I did mine myself. [[User:Eshe|Eshe]] did hers, [[User:GK|GK]]'s and a couple of others, I think. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: How? Is there any sort of program or something? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I just used Paintshop to do mine. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 17:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Me too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Thanks! ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh! Just a thank you for all the link past disambig edits; I merely saved the new disambig page, then it knocked on the door and I had visitors - so I had to take a break for editing for 30 minutes. Anyway, I think it was the right thing to do as it seemed strange to have a creature page and a quest page with the exact same name - and the creature page already had the (creature) added to the page name. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : No problem. I was surprised how many there were though. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Me too. When I clicked on &quot;what links here&quot; I thought; ''&quot;oh my god&quot;''. Anyway, another quick question: a LOT of pages states that The Sunken One can be encountered before the quest is initiated. I just tested it, and it does not happen in my GotY version; only way to encounter the Sunken One is by starting the quest. Is this some kind of &quot;unpatched and old&quot; information that we should get rid of - or do you know anything to back up the statements on the various pages? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Doesn't seem possible to me. The Sunken One is always present, but disabled until you pick up [[Oblivion:Slythe's Journal, page 3|Slythe's Journal, page 3]]. That's on Slythe's body, and he isn't enabled until you start the quest. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Gotcha. I'll remove the info from the pages. I'll check the &quot;respawning&quot;-thing of The Sunken One later on. Thanks once again! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Jakben revisited ==<br /> <br /> Yeah, I know we buried him, but I have just followed him around and watched him do some very unexpected things, and I’m not really able to tell what is going on, so here I am. First of all; is it true that he will wander around the Talos Plaza District (10pm-2am) on Loredas?&lt;br&gt;<br /> Here comes the odd one; at 6am, I noticed that he went ahead and threw me out of the house, which always means that some package activates. Loading game, then followed him down into the basement, where he disappeared. Loading game, waiting for him in the basement. He came down there just after 6am and '''entered''' the Catacombs!!! These observations were made without the quest being initiated at all, but him venturing into the basement without a key does not really match our discoveries from earlier. As I’m unable to enter the Catacombs without the key, I was wondering if you could try locating him using the console? This is REALLY strange, but at least it proves (and I say this carefully) that I’m not a complete idiot for not being able to find him (very first question [[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011#Boots_of_Springheel_Jak|here]]). Anyway, for comfort, I moved all your CS observations about his schedule to [[User:Krusty/Sandbox6#CS_stuff_from_rpeh|this location]]. Hopefully, you can find the time and test this; the torture never stops! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Oh, and just to include every observation; I waited for him in the basement and he returned from the Catacombs at 6pm. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Dammit, I thought we'd cracked this one. The only day-specific package he has is his 10pm-2am wander around the Talos Plaza package on Morndas, Middas and Fredas, although obviously that does spill over into Loredas on one day.<br /> :: The other one: his sleep package runs from 6am to 6pm located in the basement. Except it's a wander package and there's no bed. It's odd that he can get through the door - I'll see if I can give it a test to see what happens. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:37, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MW Drain Intelligence glitch ==<br /> <br /> I noticed that Sethiel added a bunch of notes related to Draining Intellegence to permanently gain Magicka. In my opinion, that glitch does not belong on the pages it was added to, and should only be mentioned on the glitch page. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 14:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Was that what it was about? TBH, I saw all the formulae and closed the page. If that's what it was, then yes it should only be on the glitches page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I will remove them then. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 14:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == OPRP question ==<br /> <br /> Okay, I have thought this through and I figured I would take a bit of responsibility for the deceased OPRP project - but to do so, I really need your help; or rather, RoBot's help, if it is even possible. As I have stumbled upon some terrible pages with the OPRP tag removed, I was wondering if it would be possible to make some sort of Category for pages '''completed''' by the OPRP? Merely a list of Places without the OPRP-tag, somewhat resembling the Final Review-section of the ONPCRP. I know that the pages gets updated (on rare occasions), but I will personally add them to the Category if needed. But first of all; is it even possible to make such a Category? Oh, and I thought about posting this on the CP or AN, but given the amount of interest in the project, I ended up here - we really need to get rid of this mess now. Hope you can find the time to help and forgive me if such a Category already exist; I have looked everywhere. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yeah I can do that, but how about making it a little more OBNPCRP-like? I could change the current template to add a &quot;written&quot; param - or even &quot;written&quot; and &quot;checked&quot;, if you like, and have the template hide itself if the params are filled in. Then we can have categories for all the possible states. Or do you just want the category? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I prefer the OBNPCRP type. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: {{ec}} Well, if it is not too much trouble, then I think it is a brilliant idea - but it seems like an impossible task to figure out ''who'' wrote ''what'' at this point? Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the project is a mess and I think we should make an effort to get it back on track, ultimately without too much discussion on the AN or CP or the project page, as there is really not much to discuss. If we can make it just a bit more like the ONPCRP, then the project might attract newer editors (I just deleted a whole lot of painfully inactive project members), and maybe we can finally take off all the tags and, with a whole lot of effort, make the pages consistent. Any help would be appreciated - but some kind of Final Review-stage is definitely essential, given the amount of odd contributions and incomplete/useless walkthroughs. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, since it's a one-shot template really, I'll add a &quot;writtenby&quot; param only. If the param is blank or missing, the page will go into [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Needing Cleanup]] as normal. If it's filled in, it'll go in [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Checking]] instead. I'll run it in a few mins so post quickly if you don't like that! ;) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:21, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: At the moment, it seems like RoBot is including the Castle pages as well. Is that intentional? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Dammit, no. I've removed Guild halls, buildings, stables, settlements, inns, store, landmarks and houses... but I forgot castles. Just revert those. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Seems like camps and chapels have the tag as well - revert manually? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Camps I left deliberately because I don't think they've ever been &quot;officially&quot; written. Chapels... yeah. Kill those too. Sorry about this. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} No problem at all. And good ideas with the camps - most of these pages need an overhaul anyway! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Okay, unless I forgot a few places, I have reverted all tags from irrelevant pages. Looks good to me! Of course, this new strategy should be included somewhere on the OPRP project page, as it should be made clear that a page is '''not''' finished until a second editor have at least read through the page (or should it be checked once more in-game?) and checked that all the information is correct - and then the hidden tag can finally be removed. I guess my next task is to read through '''all''' the &quot;OPRP pages needs checking&quot; pages for overly incomplete walkthroughs and then add the OPRP tag all over again. Are there any way to change the OPRP tag to say &quot;Needs walkthroughs and in-game verification&quot;? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Sure - just change the message on the {{tl|cleanup-oprp}} template. Unless you mean you want another message rather than hiding the template? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: It depends. What is the easiest way to inform people that the page is incomplete until it has been read through and checked? Personally, I'm sick and tired of the tags, so I kindda like that they are hidden - on the other hand, it needs a thorough explanation on the project page with a link to the Category. Let's see how it goes with this technique as I'd hate to see the tags back on the pages - I'll dedicate my free time for the next couple of days to read through the written pages and maybe even add the author - that shouldn't be so hard, although it will be a bit time-consuming. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Back from work with another question: Looking at the new Needs-Checking Category, it seems like a lot of Camps have found their way to that page. Any reason for that? In my honest opinion, 90% of these pages needs a rewrite (and some love), so shouldn't they be in the &quot;ordinary&quot; OPRP Category? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: The basic idea was that any place page without a cleanup-oprp tag had been &quot;done&quot; and the tag removed. Since the camps didn't have the tag, they got the &quot;writtenby=Unknown&quot; param, which marks them as done. Maybe not a great idea, now I think about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: No worries, I can correct them when I go through the list. Speaking of, we might want to set an example for Camp pages and what they should contain. A lot of Shivering Isles camps are a lot more detailed than the OB ones, so it shouldn't be too hard finding inspiration. But that might be a discussion worth taking on the CP. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I just read through each and every one of the Camp pages and found one(!) good page. It is [[Shivering:Blood_Island_Camp|this one]]. It contains a bit of nice info about the surroundings (the &quot;love&quot; I was talking about), info on respawning containers and even lists nearby plants, which I think is cool. What is your opinion on a page like this? Does it need additional info? A table for the plants? I'm asking because I am trying to set up the before mentioned example before taking this to the CP. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 00:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Campsites seem to have been a bit neglected in the past, but I suppose the other place types are rather more important.<br /> :::::::: I'm honestly not sure of the best way to do ingredients. Pages like [[Oblivion:Shetcombe Farm|Shetcombe Farm]] look odd, somehow. Perhaps the headline followed by a thin table isn't the best way to do it. On the other hand, I just found that we don't even list ingredients at [[Oblivion:Whitmond Farm|Whitmond Farm]] or [[Oblivion:Odiil Farm|Odiil Farm]] so it looks like we have the opportunity to come up with a good layout and use it everywhere. Isn't this great? We were all running out of things to do, after all... :/ [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing - good thing that we are really bored without much to do around here! ;) Anyway, I [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering%3ABlood_Island_Camp&amp;diff=625336&amp;oldid=625132 added] the authors name to said camp and wanted to make sure, before I go through each and every dungeon page doing the exact same thing, that this is the way it is supposed to be done? Do I need the link to the author or is it enough with just writtenby=SerCenKing, as opposed to a full link? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Doesn't really matter just as long as we're consistent. I suppose since the template auto-hides as soon as the name is put in, just the name would do, but we're probably so used to putting in a full link that we'll end up doing that anyway. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:04, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Hello again! Nice new project you have created - looking forward to follow the progress! Anyway, one final request and then I'll leave this talk page alone - or at least this topic. After [[User_talk:SerCenKing#A_bit_of_help_with_Relmyna.3F|talking]] with SerCenKing - and after my recent [[User:Krusty/Sandbox|spree]] through all Place pages from A to E, it seems like a very good idea to add a &quot;checkedby=&quot;-param to the existing OPRP-tag. Of course, I looked at the Template and quickly realized that I have absolutely no idea how to do that, so better safe than sorry. As mentioned elsewhere, I think a third Category (listing the pages with checkedby= filled out) would be a great idea, making the OPRP so much easier to cope with, so I really hope you can find the time and add this final param to the Template and create the needed Category. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Okay, done (I hope): there's now a &quot;checkedby&quot; param. If both params are filled in, the template is hidden and pages go into the [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Final Review|Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Final Review]] category. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Thank you so much! What happens next is that I'll try and find an agreement with SerC about what needs to be done in the &quot;checking&quot;-phase. It shouldn't really be necessary for another User to go through an entire five-zone dungeon to mark a walkthrough as &quot;checked&quot; - maybe just a thorough comparison between the map and the walkthrough, a bit of what you did on [[Shivering:Aichan|Aichan]] recently. Thanks again! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == I Know You've Probably Blocked This Out of You Mind But... ==<br /> <br /> The Userify-ing system for roleplaying has reached the three month mark and is up for review. Just wanted to let you know.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 17:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Job for RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> I have a new job for RoBoT, to replace all the manual quest links at the &quot;Related Quests&quot; sections with links that use the [[Template:Quest Link|Quest Link]] template. What do you think? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Nice idea, but it'd be quite tricky to write. I might give it a go at some point, but I'm not sure it's worth it for only a few pages (if any). [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I've seen many pages that do this, especially at Morrowind namespace. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 20:59, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Well maybe I'll take a look then. It's not easy though. Probably easier to generate a list then fix them by hand. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Sounds good. RoBoT will make a list and we (I if you don't want to) will fix them. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 21:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == PC Help ==<br /> <br /> I just acquired Oblivion for PC and I was wondering if there is a way to switch out of the game window while playing. It would make it easier to look up codes and what not. I hope it isn't really obvious, since it took me like 15 minutes to realize that the Start Menu is Esc...so not used to PC games. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 03:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I can't switch out of the window. If it happens, when I go back in the game window, the game is frozen and the only thing I can do is turn around. Literally everything in the game is frozen, nothing moves. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 06:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: In theory, ALT-TAB or CTRL-ESC should switch you out of the game. In practice, the game will probably crash. I've learned to use one computer for playing the game and another to surf the wiki. Or, if I'm trying to save electricity, I use a pen and paper instead of the second computer. You wouldn't believe how many old envelopes get covered with strange, 8-character hex sequences! If the security services ever go through my rubbish, they're going to assume I'm a foreign agent or something. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I have a small technical problem, sometimes when I close Oblivion, instead of just exiting, a message comes up saying that Oblivion encountered a problem and had to close. Any ideas? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I get the same thing. In my case it happens after I install more than about 15 mods, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I personally don't use much mods (only one not made by me, Midas). However, this was happening even when I was playing vanilla, no mods, official plugins and Shivering Isles. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::This error message, -program in question- has encountered a problem, is not exclusive to Oblivion. It basicly states that the application that was running failed to meet the normal end-program code but yet still ended. Any unsaved data, or data in the midsts of saving, is lost. I have gotten this message on, Internet Explorer, Spore, FallOut 3, FO3NV, Oblivion, Civilization 4, VLC media player, maybe more. It happens more often when multiple programs are running.--[[Special:Contributions/184.59.231.111|184.59.231.111]] 07:45, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I thought about that too, but it happens only at my Oblivion, so it bugged me. It happens no matter if I have other programs running or not. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::Also happens frequently while opening and closing processer heavy applications, IE Oblivion (or 24 internet tabs). Hitting ALT F4 closes the game and causes the message to appear for me every time for all my Bethseda games and some others too (having mods for them increases the likelyhood of this occurrence). It is nothing to fret over.--[[Special:Contributions/184.59.231.111|184.59.231.111]] 08:07, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I've had great success by hitting Esc so that the game is paused and then Alt-TAB out, look at my local files and stuff (WINDOWS is not connected to the net) and then Alt-TAB back to Oblivion and Esc to unpause the game. WINDOWS is Vista. As for the crash when closing, it happens occasionally when I quit the game, not very often. -- MartinS [[Special:Contributions/92.254.208.123|92.254.208.123]] 20:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Etymology ==<br /> <br /> Hi, Rpeh. Is it acceptable to have etymology sections in articles on NPCs? [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 17:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The criteria we've developed over time is that an etymology has to be relevant to a character's role in some way. So, for instance we mention that &quot;Skjorta&quot; means &quot;shirt&quot; because she's a clothes seller. Everything else should go on the [[Lore:Etymology]] page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I see, thank you. The one that sprang to mind was Amiable Fanriene, whose first name is also a word meaning a person of meek or mild disposition, and also someone who is agreeable and easily persuaded. I though that was particulary fitting, given his somewhat cowardly nature. [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 11:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Imperial City Picture ==<br /> <br /> How did you got a picture with all cells loaded? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 11:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The [http://www.oblivionmodwiki.com/index.php/RAEVWD Really Almost Everything Viewable When Distant] mod. It really makes the game look stunning, but can melt your processor if you're not careful. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:26, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Thanks. And a funny small unrelated thing, Ratwar confused accounts with IPs many times. See [[User talk:Dr Jones#User Page|here]], [[User talk:Rpeh/Warnings#Warning|here]], [[User talk:RoBoT/Warnings|here]], [[User talk:Leadgeneration|here]], [[User_talk:Oblivionisfly#Recent comments|here]], [[User_talk:NathanTHipgrave#Warning|here]] and [[User talk:DaNaeu7|here]]. There are many other cases, but I am too bored to write them all. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes I know. He wasn't very careful about that kind of thing. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: True. I know he put the hell ot of you with all those sockpuppet and personal attack stuff. He was a good editor, but he did not returned. You did. I don't know why I am bringing this matter up again, I just have a need to express my feelings about the situation (archives are not supposed to be edited, so...). --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 23:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Okay, thank you. Can we stop there though? I'd rather not bring everything up again. It's all water under the bridge now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:03, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Yup, I'll stop. My needs are satisfied now. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 23:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spike Video Game Awards ==<br /> <br /> [[UESPWiki:News/Skyrim Spike]] &amp;ndash; Is there any way I could prepare this for the Main Page? --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:40, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Sorry, you're faster than I am. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:41, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&diff=625965 2010-12-12T01:40:21Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Spike Video Game Awards */ new section</p> <hr /> <div>{{DISPLAYTITLE:user talk:rpeh}}<br /> {| class=&quot;compress&quot; style=&quot;float:right; background-color: #ddddff; border:solid 3px #9999cc; margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> |-valign=&quot;top&quot;<br /> |__TOC__<br /> |<br /> {|class=&quot;wikitable compress&quot; style=&quot;margin-left:1em&quot;<br /> !colspan=4|Archive<br /> |-<br /> |colspan=4 style=&quot;text-align:center&quot; |[[User:Rpeh/Cookies|Cookies]] : [[User_talk:Rpeh/Warnings|Warnings]]<br /> |-<br /> !'07||'08||'09||'10<br /> |-<br /> |Jan<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200801|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200901|Jan]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201001|Jan]]<br /> |-<br /> |Feb<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200802|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200902|Feb]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201002|Feb]]<br /> |-<br /> |Mar<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200803|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200903|Mar]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201003|Mar]]<br /> |-<br /> |Apr<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200804|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200904|Apr]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201004|Apr]]<br /> |-<br /> |May<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200805|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200905|May]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201005|May]]<br /> |-<br /> |Jun<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200806|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200906|Jun]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201006|Jun]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200707|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200807|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200907|Jul]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201007|Jul]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200708|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200808|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200908|Aug]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201008|Aug]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200709|Sep]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200809|Sep]]<br /> |Sep<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201009|Sep]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200710|Oct]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200810|Oct]]<br /> |Oct<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201010|Oct]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200711|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200811|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200911|Nov]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011|Nov]]<br /> |-<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200712|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200812|Dec]]<br /> |[[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_200912|Dec]]<br /> |Dec<br /> |}<br /> |}<br /> <br /> == Wiki Tables ==<br /> <br /> I was just wondering, does UESPWiki have markup for a hide-able table? I wanted to use one on [[User:DKong27/Sandbox|my Sandbox]] to insert the colors seen on [[User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/2|GK's Sandbox]] without making the page too long. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 00:44, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Well we have the {{tl|Showhide}} template, which works for many things. I keep meaning to copy across WP's table stuff but they've over-complicated things to a really stupid degree and I never get around to it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:58, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks, I'll see what I can do with it. Although I may just end up copying into another Sandbox if the page gets too cluttered. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 15:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Huh? ==<br /> <br /> Hey there, I was just checking out the beautiful new pages on the magic schools and I noticed that on the [[Lore:Conjuration|Conjuration page]], there appears to be a list of books in the middle of the article... Is that intentional? --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:04, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Oops! Thanks for pointing those out. I might work them into the article later, but don't need 'em for now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:13, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Trail ==<br /> <br /> Just cos I know you were working on them, I'm letting you know I prodded ''Template:Shivering NPC Trail'', since I used &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Trail|People}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; instead and created the [[:Category:Shivering-People|relevant category]]... Hope this doesn't screw up any plans you had; the only changes is that the trail &quot;Shivering:People&quot; doesn't show up on the disambig Split pages. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:11, 4 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Good stuff. Not sure why I hadn't done that one myself. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:29, 4 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Vampire stuff ==<br /> <br /> You mentioned [[Oblivion talk:Vampire#rpeh's Health/Magicka edits|here]] that we needed to find a better way to display the health and magicka values for vampires... Well, I gave it a shot [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Vampire&amp;diff=623758&amp;oldid=623470 here]. Basically made the text small and tinkered about with % x column to wrap more on spells and inventory and give more space for health and magicka... What say you? --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:14, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Much better, although I think there's too much space to the left of each formula. Probably best to skip the wiki syntax and use &lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;br/&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt; tags instead. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hmmm, so you'd prefer to have the formulas right up to the borders? It looks a bit weird without bullets, and it looks terrible with bullets... In any case, you do know what this means, don't you? *wink wink* :P --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:05, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I've tweaked it so it's centered. I think that's the best we're going to get without a total redesign. My concern is that there needs to be some way of linking the id on the left with the formulae on the right, or otherwise it looks random. With the small text, it all fits on one line (on my screen) so it's better than it was, although I realise many people will have much narrower windows. Anyway, if the *winking* was meant to be a way of asking me to fill in the other formulae, I remind you that you can do it yourself now, with [[:File:NPC StatGen.zip|this]] ;-) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:25, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Ohhh, that's nice :) Didn't now that was up! I'll tinker about with it myself then. As for the changes - they look perfect, everything aligned on my screen. As a side note, I've been having a hard time deciphering the various scripts revolving around [[User:SerCenKing/Sandbox/2|Gundlar]], and in particular concerning the meal he is supposed to serve. If you could drop in [[User_talk:Krusty#Gundlar|here]] I'd much appreciate :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:21, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Enjoy that program! It ''seems'' to be okay but it's possible the odd bug might still be around.<br /> :::::Re Gundlar: Krusty already mentioned that one to me in IRC. I'll take a look now - I'm waiting for The Ashes to come on. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:55, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::If we do decide to go for a total redesign (now or in the future), I played around with some formats in [[User:RobinHood70/Vav|my sandbox]]. Not sure if I like any of them, but maybe they'll spark some other ideas. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:29, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I'm not quite sure those work either. I suspect something like [[Morrowind:Undead]], with separate rows for each different type of creature and rowspans where the data is the same, is the way to go. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:42, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Those are certainly cleaner-looking than the Oblivion ones or any of mine. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:25, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Strange stuff ==<br /> <br /> Can you check out [[User:Rigas_Papadopoulos|this page]] or his talk page and see if you get a &quot;new messages&quot; sign? It's only happening when I go to that page and the last message I have was months ago. I informed him but thought I'd let you know, as you probably have an idea on what it is, whereas I don't.[[User:Mikeyboy52|&lt;span style=&quot;line-height:0.9; font-size:16pt ;color:red; font-family:Oblivion,Serif&quot;&gt;Mike&lt;/span&gt;]][[User talk:Mikeyboy52|&lt;span style=&quot;color:royalblue; line-height:0; font-size:8pt; vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]] 22:54, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : He's hard-coded the New Messages box onto his user and talk pages. He's not the [[User:Dagoth Ur, Mad God|only one]]. Don't worry about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Edit conflicts ==<br /> <br /> Now I know I would have been a good Recent Changes Patroller, if I had more time to devote to it. After I fixed that Hackdirt edit, I looked at Recent Changes and saw your name on the edit, rather than mine, although the edit Note and everything were the same. Funny I didn't notice any edit conflict come up. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 00:08, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : You should consider doing it - you can spend as much time as you have available. If your edit was the same as mine (and I guess we both did exactly the same thing) then you won't be notified of a conflict. I've had this several times on Wikipedia when I've reverted vandalism. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:13, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Yeah, my edit was identical I guess. I figured out how to bring up the version from before the two edits and clicked the Edit button from there. My edit note was a little longer than yours though. It started out the same as yours and had a few more words tacked on the end. I hesitated to become a Patroller when I was nominated before, because I did not have Oblivion. Since then, I picked up a GOTY version for $10, but I have not installed it yet. That will be on my list of things to do later this month. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 00:18, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Exactly how I did it - the software won't worry about the edit summary. Don't worry about Oblivion - a MW-specific patroller would be very useful, because otherwise it tends to come down to me. I think everyone would welcome a Daggerfall-only patroller! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: You beat me again. I even used the word &quot;transclusion&quot; in my own edit summary :P --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 16:08, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: You beat me with one yesterday afternoon. It seems great minds think alike :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Golden Saint Statistics ==<br /> <br /> Hi, sorry to fill up your talk page, but seeing you're the most active &quot;authority figure&quot; on the site, I'd figure it necessary to ask for your opinion on the results of my work on the Golden Saint Statistics, found [[User:Dwarfmp/Sandbox|here]]. All the statistics should be complete and correct. I believe that images from in-game should be added, which I'd like to do myself, and brief descriptions should be added as well. Other than that, any suggestions, or is there something I didn't do right? ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 00:27, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Wow, that looks great! A huge improvement over what we've got. Suddenly all the sandbox edits I've seen make sense - I hadn't looked at the page until now. I'm not going to check it fully right now as it's late and I'm only awake to watch the cricket, but a couple of things stand out.<br /> <br /> : First, I'd use some subheadings. At the moment it's one huge page, and finding individual entries is very difficult. Useing &quot;===&quot; or &quot;====&quot; headings will split the page up and let the table of contents help navigation.<br /> <br /> : Second, one or two tables have a minor formatting error where the bottom line isn't appearing. This is usually caused by a missing cell or something similar. The tables after &quot;Eleven dead Golden Saints found outside and inside Brellach during The Helpless Army:&quot; and &quot;Four dead Golden Saint Warriors inside Brellach during The Helpless Army, who will be revived through progressing:&quot; have this problem. It's a tiny point, but always worth fixing.<br /> <br /> : Third, only 5 of the tables have non-standard spells. Instead of listing the same spell info in each box, it might be better to ditch that column and put a &quot;†&quot; or similar marker by the rows with different values, then have a footnote explaining the difference. This would probably mean that every row fits on one line, and would probably be easier to read.<br /> <br /> : Otherwise... again, a great job! Thank you! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Hey, sorry to contact you on a late hour again, but I've worked on the issues you had last time, though I don't understand what you mean with the formatting errors. Anyway, I'm having a bit of a problem writing a summary about a particular kind of Golden Saint, which I have discussed [[User talk:Krusty#Male Golden Saints in Brellach during The Helpless Army|here]]. Perhaps you may know more than we do? ~ [[User:Dwarfmp|Dwarfmp]] 23:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I'm afraid I was already in the sweet embrace of Morpheus... or at least, trying to persuade him to give me a hug. I'll reply on Krusty's talk page to keep things in one place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:24, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Changes on Different Servers ==<br /> <br /> Not exactly a problem, but I am confused about something. I made an edit to [[User:DKong27/Sandbox/2|my Sandbox]] earlier. Just a bit ago I typed in the URL starting &lt;nowiki&gt;http://uesp.net...&lt;/nowiki&gt; and it showed up as the old version. Content1, Content2, and Content3, and even www. all showed the new version. Why would this be? --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 15:13, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure why uesp.net and www.uesp.net would show different versions, because they're the same server. It's more likely to be a caching issue with your browser, to be honest. There are occasionally caching issues between the different content servers, but ''usually'' waiting a little will sort them out. If not, purging the page will do the trick. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:22, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Could be the browser...I'm at school and they have their network connected funny. Making easy things look complicated. I miss my Firefox add-ons. :( --[[Special:Contributions/216.56.62.4|216.56.62.4]] 16:39, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Minor Issue ==<br /> <br /> You may want to help over [[User talk:Dwarfmp#A bit of help needed...|here]]. Nothing serious, but it would be good to know. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 16:53, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Answered over there. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:10, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Daedric Banners ==<br /> <br /> I noticed that several users, including yourself, have Daedric banners with their names on at their userpages. How can someone obtain one? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:30, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I did mine myself. [[User:Eshe|Eshe]] did hers, [[User:GK|GK]]'s and a couple of others, I think. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:32, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: How? Is there any sort of program or something? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 17:34, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I just used Paintshop to do mine. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 17:35, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Me too. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:48, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Thanks! ==<br /> <br /> Hey rpeh! Just a thank you for all the link past disambig edits; I merely saved the new disambig page, then it knocked on the door and I had visitors - so I had to take a break for editing for 30 minutes. Anyway, I think it was the right thing to do as it seemed strange to have a creature page and a quest page with the exact same name - and the creature page already had the (creature) added to the page name. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:37, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : No problem. I was surprised how many there were though. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Me too. When I clicked on &quot;what links here&quot; I thought; ''&quot;oh my god&quot;''. Anyway, another quick question: a LOT of pages states that The Sunken One can be encountered before the quest is initiated. I just tested it, and it does not happen in my GotY version; only way to encounter the Sunken One is by starting the quest. Is this some kind of &quot;unpatched and old&quot; information that we should get rid of - or do you know anything to back up the statements on the various pages? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:49, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Doesn't seem possible to me. The Sunken One is always present, but disabled until you pick up [[Oblivion:Slythe's Journal, page 3|Slythe's Journal, page 3]]. That's on Slythe's body, and he isn't enabled until you start the quest. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:38, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Gotcha. I'll remove the info from the pages. I'll check the &quot;respawning&quot;-thing of The Sunken One later on. Thanks once again! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:41, 7 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Jakben revisited ==<br /> <br /> Yeah, I know we buried him, but I have just followed him around and watched him do some very unexpected things, and I’m not really able to tell what is going on, so here I am. First of all; is it true that he will wander around the Talos Plaza District (10pm-2am) on Loredas?&lt;br&gt;<br /> Here comes the odd one; at 6am, I noticed that he went ahead and threw me out of the house, which always means that some package activates. Loading game, then followed him down into the basement, where he disappeared. Loading game, waiting for him in the basement. He came down there just after 6am and '''entered''' the Catacombs!!! These observations were made without the quest being initiated at all, but him venturing into the basement without a key does not really match our discoveries from earlier. As I’m unable to enter the Catacombs without the key, I was wondering if you could try locating him using the console? This is REALLY strange, but at least it proves (and I say this carefully) that I’m not a complete idiot for not being able to find him (very first question [[User_talk:Rpeh/Arc_201011#Boots_of_Springheel_Jak|here]]). Anyway, for comfort, I moved all your CS observations about his schedule to [[User:Krusty/Sandbox6#CS_stuff_from_rpeh|this location]]. Hopefully, you can find the time and test this; the torture never stops! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:38, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Oh, and just to include every observation; I waited for him in the basement and he returned from the Catacombs at 6pm. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:51, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Dammit, I thought we'd cracked this one. The only day-specific package he has is his 10pm-2am wander around the Talos Plaza package on Morndas, Middas and Fredas, although obviously that does spill over into Loredas on one day.<br /> :: The other one: his sleep package runs from 6am to 6pm located in the basement. Except it's a wander package and there's no bed. It's odd that he can get through the door - I'll see if I can give it a test to see what happens. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:37, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == MW Drain Intelligence glitch ==<br /> <br /> I noticed that Sethiel added a bunch of notes related to Draining Intellegence to permanently gain Magicka. In my opinion, that glitch does not belong on the pages it was added to, and should only be mentioned on the glitch page. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 14:39, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Was that what it was about? TBH, I saw all the formulae and closed the page. If that's what it was, then yes it should only be on the glitches page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I will remove them then. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 14:47, 8 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == OPRP question ==<br /> <br /> Okay, I have thought this through and I figured I would take a bit of responsibility for the deceased OPRP project - but to do so, I really need your help; or rather, RoBot's help, if it is even possible. As I have stumbled upon some terrible pages with the OPRP tag removed, I was wondering if it would be possible to make some sort of Category for pages '''completed''' by the OPRP? Merely a list of Places without the OPRP-tag, somewhat resembling the Final Review-section of the ONPCRP. I know that the pages gets updated (on rare occasions), but I will personally add them to the Category if needed. But first of all; is it even possible to make such a Category? Oh, and I thought about posting this on the CP or AN, but given the amount of interest in the project, I ended up here - we really need to get rid of this mess now. Hope you can find the time to help and forgive me if such a Category already exist; I have looked everywhere. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:42, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Yeah I can do that, but how about making it a little more OBNPCRP-like? I could change the current template to add a &quot;written&quot; param - or even &quot;written&quot; and &quot;checked&quot;, if you like, and have the template hide itself if the params are filled in. Then we can have categories for all the possible states. Or do you just want the category? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I prefer the OBNPCRP type. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: {{ec}} Well, if it is not too much trouble, then I think it is a brilliant idea - but it seems like an impossible task to figure out ''who'' wrote ''what'' at this point? Nevertheless, there is no doubt that the project is a mess and I think we should make an effort to get it back on track, ultimately without too much discussion on the AN or CP or the project page, as there is really not much to discuss. If we can make it just a bit more like the ONPCRP, then the project might attract newer editors (I just deleted a whole lot of painfully inactive project members), and maybe we can finally take off all the tags and, with a whole lot of effort, make the pages consistent. Any help would be appreciated - but some kind of Final Review-stage is definitely essential, given the amount of odd contributions and incomplete/useless walkthroughs. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Okay, since it's a one-shot template really, I'll add a &quot;writtenby&quot; param only. If the param is blank or missing, the page will go into [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Needing Cleanup]] as normal. If it's filled in, it'll go in [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Checking]] instead. I'll run it in a few mins so post quickly if you don't like that! ;) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:21, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: At the moment, it seems like RoBot is including the Castle pages as well. Is that intentional? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:45, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Dammit, no. I've removed Guild halls, buildings, stables, settlements, inns, store, landmarks and houses... but I forgot castles. Just revert those. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Seems like camps and chapels have the tag as well - revert manually? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Camps I left deliberately because I don't think they've ever been &quot;officially&quot; written. Chapels... yeah. Kill those too. Sorry about this. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:01, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} No problem at all. And good ideas with the camps - most of these pages need an overhaul anyway! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:03, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Okay, unless I forgot a few places, I have reverted all tags from irrelevant pages. Looks good to me! Of course, this new strategy should be included somewhere on the OPRP project page, as it should be made clear that a page is '''not''' finished until a second editor have at least read through the page (or should it be checked once more in-game?) and checked that all the information is correct - and then the hidden tag can finally be removed. I guess my next task is to read through '''all''' the &quot;OPRP pages needs checking&quot; pages for overly incomplete walkthroughs and then add the OPRP tag all over again. Are there any way to change the OPRP tag to say &quot;Needs walkthroughs and in-game verification&quot;? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:34, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Sure - just change the message on the {{tl|cleanup-oprp}} template. Unless you mean you want another message rather than hiding the template? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: It depends. What is the easiest way to inform people that the page is incomplete until it has been read through and checked? Personally, I'm sick and tired of the tags, so I kindda like that they are hidden - on the other hand, it needs a thorough explanation on the project page with a link to the Category. Let's see how it goes with this technique as I'd hate to see the tags back on the pages - I'll dedicate my free time for the next couple of days to read through the written pages and maybe even add the author - that shouldn't be so hard, although it will be a bit time-consuming. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 13:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Back from work with another question: Looking at the new Needs-Checking Category, it seems like a lot of Camps have found their way to that page. Any reason for that? In my honest opinion, 90% of these pages needs a rewrite (and some love), so shouldn't they be in the &quot;ordinary&quot; OPRP Category? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:46, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: The basic idea was that any place page without a cleanup-oprp tag had been &quot;done&quot; and the tag removed. Since the camps didn't have the tag, they got the &quot;writtenby=Unknown&quot; param, which marks them as done. Maybe not a great idea, now I think about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:57, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: No worries, I can correct them when I go through the list. Speaking of, we might want to set an example for Camp pages and what they should contain. A lot of Shivering Isles camps are a lot more detailed than the OB ones, so it shouldn't be too hard finding inspiration. But that might be a discussion worth taking on the CP. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I just read through each and every one of the Camp pages and found one(!) good page. It is [[Shivering:Blood_Island_Camp|this one]]. It contains a bit of nice info about the surroundings (the &quot;love&quot; I was talking about), info on respawning containers and even lists nearby plants, which I think is cool. What is your opinion on a page like this? Does it need additional info? A table for the plants? I'm asking because I am trying to set up the before mentioned example before taking this to the CP. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 00:51, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Campsites seem to have been a bit neglected in the past, but I suppose the other place types are rather more important.<br /> :::::::: I'm honestly not sure of the best way to do ingredients. Pages like [[Oblivion:Shetcombe Farm|Shetcombe Farm]] look odd, somehow. Perhaps the headline followed by a thin table isn't the best way to do it. On the other hand, I just found that we don't even list ingredients at [[Oblivion:Whitmond Farm|Whitmond Farm]] or [[Oblivion:Odiil Farm|Odiil Farm]] so it looks like we have the opportunity to come up with a good layout and use it everywhere. Isn't this great? We were all running out of things to do, after all... :/ [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:22, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Yeah, I was thinking the exact same thing - good thing that we are really bored without much to do around here! ;) Anyway, I [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Shivering%3ABlood_Island_Camp&amp;diff=625336&amp;oldid=625132 added] the authors name to said camp and wanted to make sure, before I go through each and every dungeon page doing the exact same thing, that this is the way it is supposed to be done? Do I need the link to the author or is it enough with just writtenby=SerCenKing, as opposed to a full link? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:55, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Doesn't really matter just as long as we're consistent. I suppose since the template auto-hides as soon as the name is put in, just the name would do, but we're probably so used to putting in a full link that we'll end up doing that anyway. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:04, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Hello again! Nice new project you have created - looking forward to follow the progress! Anyway, one final request and then I'll leave this talk page alone - or at least this topic. After [[User_talk:SerCenKing#A_bit_of_help_with_Relmyna.3F|talking]] with SerCenKing - and after my recent [[User:Krusty/Sandbox|spree]] through all Place pages from A to E, it seems like a very good idea to add a &quot;checkedby=&quot;-param to the existing OPRP-tag. Of course, I looked at the Template and quickly realized that I have absolutely no idea how to do that, so better safe than sorry. As mentioned elsewhere, I think a third Category (listing the pages with checkedby= filled out) would be a great idea, making the OPRP so much easier to cope with, so I really hope you can find the time and add this final param to the Template and create the needed Category. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:47, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Okay, done (I hope): there's now a &quot;checkedby&quot; param. If both params are filled in, the template is hidden and pages go into the [[:Category:Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Final Review|Oblivion Places Redesign Pages Requiring Final Review]] category. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:58, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Thank you so much! What happens next is that I'll try and find an agreement with SerC about what needs to be done in the &quot;checking&quot;-phase. It shouldn't really be necessary for another User to go through an entire five-zone dungeon to mark a walkthrough as &quot;checked&quot; - maybe just a thorough comparison between the map and the walkthrough, a bit of what you did on [[Shivering:Aichan|Aichan]] recently. Thanks again! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == I Know You've Probably Blocked This Out of You Mind But... ==<br /> <br /> The Userify-ing system for roleplaying has reached the three month mark and is up for review. Just wanted to let you know.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 17:25, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Job for RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> I have a new job for RoBoT, to replace all the manual quest links at the &quot;Related Quests&quot; sections with links that use the [[Template:Quest Link|Quest Link]] template. What do you think? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Nice idea, but it'd be quite tricky to write. I might give it a go at some point, but I'm not sure it's worth it for only a few pages (if any). [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:58, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I've seen many pages that do this, especially at Morrowind namespace. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 20:59, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Well maybe I'll take a look then. It's not easy though. Probably easier to generate a list then fix them by hand. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Sounds good. RoBoT will make a list and we (I if you don't want to) will fix them. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 21:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == PC Help ==<br /> <br /> I just acquired Oblivion for PC and I was wondering if there is a way to switch out of the game window while playing. It would make it easier to look up codes and what not. I hope it isn't really obvious, since it took me like 15 minutes to realize that the Start Menu is Esc...so not used to PC games. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 03:11, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I can't switch out of the window. If it happens, when I go back in the game window, the game is frozen and the only thing I can do is turn around. Literally everything in the game is frozen, nothing moves. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 06:08, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: In theory, ALT-TAB or CTRL-ESC should switch you out of the game. In practice, the game will probably crash. I've learned to use one computer for playing the game and another to surf the wiki. Or, if I'm trying to save electricity, I use a pen and paper instead of the second computer. You wouldn't believe how many old envelopes get covered with strange, 8-character hex sequences! If the security services ever go through my rubbish, they're going to assume I'm a foreign agent or something. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:13, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I have a small technical problem, sometimes when I close Oblivion, instead of just exiting, a message comes up saying that Oblivion encountered a problem and had to close. Any ideas? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I get the same thing. In my case it happens after I install more than about 15 mods, and there doesn't seem to be anything I can do about it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:23, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I personally don't use much mods (only one not made by me, Midas). However, this was happening even when I was playing vanilla, no mods, official plugins and Shivering Isles. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:29, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::This error message, -program in question- has encountered a problem, is not exclusive to Oblivion. It basicly states that the application that was running failed to meet the normal end-program code but yet still ended. Any unsaved data, or data in the midsts of saving, is lost. I have gotten this message on, Internet Explorer, Spore, FallOut 3, FO3NV, Oblivion, Civilization 4, VLC media player, maybe more. It happens more often when multiple programs are running.--[[Special:Contributions/184.59.231.111|184.59.231.111]] 07:45, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I thought about that too, but it happens only at my Oblivion, so it bugged me. It happens no matter if I have other programs running or not. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 07:49, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::Also happens frequently while opening and closing processer heavy applications, IE Oblivion (or 24 internet tabs). Hitting ALT F4 closes the game and causes the message to appear for me every time for all my Bethseda games and some others too (having mods for them increases the likelyhood of this occurrence). It is nothing to fret over.--[[Special:Contributions/184.59.231.111|184.59.231.111]] 08:07, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::I've had great success by hitting Esc so that the game is paused and then Alt-TAB out, look at my local files and stuff (WINDOWS is not connected to the net) and then Alt-TAB back to Oblivion and Esc to unpause the game. WINDOWS is Vista. As for the crash when closing, it happens occasionally when I quit the game, not very often. -- MartinS [[Special:Contributions/92.254.208.123|92.254.208.123]] 20:12, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Etymology ==<br /> <br /> Hi, Rpeh. Is it acceptable to have etymology sections in articles on NPCs? [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 17:20, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The criteria we've developed over time is that an etymology has to be relevant to a character's role in some way. So, for instance we mention that &quot;Skjorta&quot; means &quot;shirt&quot; because she's a clothes seller. Everything else should go on the [[Lore:Etymology]] page. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:16, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I see, thank you. The one that sprang to mind was Amiable Fanriene, whose first name is also a word meaning a person of meek or mild disposition, and also someone who is agreeable and easily persuaded. I though that was particulary fitting, given his somewhat cowardly nature. [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 11:18, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Imperial City Picture ==<br /> <br /> How did you got a picture with all cells loaded? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 11:59, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The [http://www.oblivionmodwiki.com/index.php/RAEVWD Really Almost Everything Viewable When Distant] mod. It really makes the game look stunning, but can melt your processor if you're not careful. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:26, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Thanks. And a funny small unrelated thing, Ratwar confused accounts with IPs many times. See [[User talk:Dr Jones#User Page|here]], [[User talk:Rpeh/Warnings#Warning|here]], [[User talk:RoBoT/Warnings|here]], [[User talk:Leadgeneration|here]], [[User_talk:Oblivionisfly#Recent comments|here]], [[User_talk:NathanTHipgrave#Warning|here]] and [[User talk:DaNaeu7|here]]. There are many other cases, but I am too bored to write them all. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:39, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes I know. He wasn't very careful about that kind of thing. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:42, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: True. I know he put the hell ot of you with all those sockpuppet and personal attack stuff. He was a good editor, but he did not returned. You did. I don't know why I am bringing this matter up again, I just have a need to express my feelings about the situation (archives are not supposed to be edited, so...). --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 23:01, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Okay, thank you. Can we stop there though? I'd rather not bring everything up again. It's all water under the bridge now. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:03, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: Yup, I'll stop. My needs are satisfied now. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 23:05, 11 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Spike Video Game Awards ==<br /> <br /> [[UESPWiki:News/Skyrim Spike]] &amp;ndash; Is there any way I could prepare this for the Main Page? --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:40, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Talk:Main_Page&diff=625960 2010-12-12T01:36:42Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Announced!!!!! */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>{{protection|semi}}<br /> {| style=&quot;margin:0 5%; padding:.5em; background:#FFFFEE; border: 1px solid #CCCCAA; background-color: #FFFFEA; text-align:left&quot;<br /> |<br /> [[Image:Stop hand.png]] <br /> |<br /> This page is for discussion of the main page itself. '''General community comments/discussion and/or general questions/suggestions for site content should be added to the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]].''' Also, as this page is Semi-Protected due to frequent Vandalism, all comments on the Main Page should be directed to the Community Portal anyways.<br /> |}<br /> <br /> {{Archive Table<br /> |Archive 1||June 2006 – April 2008<br /> |Archive 2||September 2007 – August 2009<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == Did You Know ==<br /> === Suggestions for new segments ===<br /> Can anyone add a new segment to the Did you know section?--[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|Arch-Mage Matt]] 22:01, 19 February 2010 (UTC)<br /> :No, it's protected since it's displayed on the main page, but feel free to suggest DYKs here. --[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 21 February 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Okay, new suggestion:<br /> *that the '''[[Oblivion:Black Horse Courier|Black Horse Courier]]''' is [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]'s only newspaper, funded by the [[Oblivion:Elder Council|Elder Council]], providing the latest news to the masses.<br /> ::Or something along those lines. [[User:Justeazy|Justeazy]] 04:00, 8 April 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I propose: &lt;br&gt;<br /> *that '''[[Shivering:Sheogorath|Sheogorath, prince of madness]]''' is slightly schizophrenic?<br /> --[[User:TheEnigmaticMan|TheEnigmaticMan]] 19:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *that Arena is the only game in the Elder Scrolls series that features the entire Tamriel? <br /> --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]] 10:55, 15 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Discussing segments ===<br /> * that '''''[[Lore:Corpse Preparation|necromancy]]''''' is only illegal in the province of [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]]?<br /> ::Correct me if I'm wrong, but the necromancy wasn't banned by Mages Guild during action of TES4:Oblivion? - [[User:ZuTheSkunk|ZuTheSkunk]] 10:30, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Yes, but it was not banned by the Tamaril Government. The Mages Guild has no power to pass law, only regulate its own members. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 10:39, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::That's not a good item to add, precisely because of confusion like this. Anybody can edit the list, BTW: it's not protected. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:15, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}}I don't think Zu was suggesting adding it, because it's already on the list. And yes, I was mistaken, it's not protected; anyone can edit it. The page is [[:Main Page/Did You Know|here]]. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:18, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :I just wanted to discuss this little thing that was uncertain for me, and this part looked good enough for me. Perhaps we'll divide adding suggestions and discussing segments already added, as I did now? - [[User:ZuTheSkunk|ZuTheSkunk]] 14:53, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == New Game (This is not a forum post) ==<br /> <br /> So... For a &quot;youngster&quot; who doesn't get the 'retro style' could someone explain this a little furthur? I don't really get the description.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:02, 31 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Gotcha :p [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:11, 31 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Oh, ha. You made a fool out of me. Wow, I am really stupid. I cannot beleive I fell for that, even for a second. I'm tired. Goodnight. How did I ''fall'' for that?--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:22, 31 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I am ''hitting'' myself for this. Sure I'll never forget this. You hurt me. =p --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:28, 31 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: It's like no matter where I go, there is always someone getting their feelers hurt over some very stupid thing...*shakes head* This is for Elder Scrolls, not drama![[User:Ktsukami31|Cookies... lots and lots of cookies!!!]] 06:29, 13 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: I think you misunderstood. It was an April Fool's joke and AMM didn't get it at first. His response, once he realized, was meant to be humorous as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:48, 13 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: That 'tis true. It was ''meant'' to be humorous. :) You can find out by spending five minutes with me that if I'm not expecting a joke, I won't see anything as one. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt;<br /> <br /> == Articles ==<br /> {{dm|Allgreto|Articles|User talk}} ''--'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:10, 23 June 2010 (UTC)''<br /> <br /> == TES5 news? ==<br /> <br /> So, there are any news about TES5 after the E3? - [[User:ZuTheSkunk|ZuTheSkunk]] 19:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Nope. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I've heard that it's name will be &quot;Empire&quot;. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]] 15:48, 21 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I think that's a joke. The only sources I can find for that are fake YouTube videos. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Really? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]] 16:28, 22 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: If you can find a link, please post it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:38, 22 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: It's just a video of (Probably) some other game trailer, and at the bottom of the description it says &quot;Just kiddin', it's a fake trailer&quot;.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:25, 24 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> At the Greek Oblivion Guild, (a website) I found information (very possibly fake) that says that the name will be Shadowrealm. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]] 09:38, 25 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Morrowind ==<br /> <br /> Today (15th September) Morrowind was the featured article on Wikipedia. Maybe worth a mention?&lt;br&gt;<br /> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_III:_Morrowind --&lt;font color=orange&gt;[[User:Call999itsashark|call999itsashark]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt; &lt;font color=red&gt;[[User_Talk:Call999itsashark|talk]]&lt;/font&gt; • &lt;font color=green&gt;[[Special:Emailuser/Call999itsashark|mail]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It's vaguely interesting, but I don't think the fact that another wiki has highlighted a page is newsworthy. Our own coverage of Morrowind is rather more extensive after all! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:02, 16 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Well, that is true, although it's not 'another wiki', it is '''the''' wiki, really :D --&lt;font color=orange&gt;[[User:Call999itsashark|call999itsashark]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt; &lt;font color=red&gt;[[User_Talk:Call999itsashark|talk]]&lt;/font&gt; • &lt;font color=green&gt;[[Special:Emailuser/Call999itsashark|mail]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/sup&gt; 15:17, 16 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == TES V oblivion sequel ==<br /> <br /> How credible is this rumour? <br /> <br /> I dont think it has enough validity to be put on the main page.<br /> <br /> I read the link and the idea that TES V will just follow oblivion and feature Mehrunes Dagon is to me laughable. I dont believe it at all.<br /> <br /> 1) The oblivion storyline is closed, Mehrunes is not coming back, otherwise what is the point of Martin's sacrifice?<br /> <br /> 2) Also, because the infernal city books have been declared canon we already know a bit about what happened after oblivion. It doesnt fit with this rumour.<br /> <br /> 3) Because of the infernal city books I find it highly unlikely that TES V will take place before them. It is far more likely that they are a bridge between TES IV and V.<br /> <br /> --[[User:Merari|Merari]] 17:52, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> : The rumour doesn't say anything about Dagon being the antagonist, or even being involved. Only that the events of the game will imediately follow on from Oblivion. [[User:Jayden Matthews|Jayden Matthews]] 17:57, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: We're just reporting a rumor from a reputable source. It doesn't mention Mehrunes Dagon - it mentions &quot;Dragon Lord&quot; and the Blades, which could be seen as suggesting an Akaviri connection. Further, nothing in the rumor says that it the game couldn't fit in between the events of Oblivion and the events of TIC - there's roughly 40 years to work with and not too much stuff to fit into the gap. The player take a role in Titus Mede's ascent to the throne or in the split of the Mages Guild into the Synod and College of Whispers. You might be an early operative in the Penitus Oculatus. Gather supplies to help expand Ione. In short, it would be easy to fit a game into what we know and leave plenty of space for other things. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:11, 2 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> <br /> I see:) Thanks for the explanation, I think I misread 'dragon' as 'dagon'.<br /> I still think it would be more likely for TES V to take place after the infernal city, but you never know. The Akaviri have been prominent in lore for a long time now, and it would be interesting to see more of them.<br /> --[[User:Merari|Merari]] 01:31, 3 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Announced!!!!! ==<br /> <br /> TES V SKYRIM!!!! It was announced! --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:23, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Spike's TV Video Game Awards -- it was announced. I'm still shaking. It mentioned &quot;Dragon Ball&quot; and it was a ver short trailor coming Nov. 11th 2011. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> : (e/c)At the moment it's just Twitter feeds from 3rd parties. Let's wait until an official Beth announcement. From what I've seen so far, they're talking about a release in Nov 2011, which doesn't make sense. Why announce a date a whole year in advance? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:27, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: No, Todd Howard announced it on Spike's TV Video Game Awards. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:28, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: As they say these days: pics, or it didn't happen. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: http://www.gametrailers.com/video/vga-10-tba-game-2/708369 --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:35, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: {{ec}}http://www.gameinformer.com/b/news/archive/2010/12/11/3fsseelder-scrolls-v-f51kkinally-announedfrced-for-201112dvx.aspx --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:36, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:News&diff=625953 2010-12-12T01:33:11Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Skyrim */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>is there anything official about the fighters mod for oblivion on the xbox360. i have seen nothing on xboxlive, but i keep catching hints about it. if anyone has information regarding this, please let me know...thanks<br /> <br /> ''Question moved to [[User talk:212.64.93.211]]'' --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:34, 21 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == The latest news about Oblivion possibly getting new content... ==<br /> <br /> I'm not much for editing these things so I'll add this to the discussion page and hopefully someone who does this regularly will see it. Someone would probably just have to some along and clean up my mess anyway.<br /> <br /> Here's what Gstaff (Bethesda employee) had to say about it in a topic on the official forums.<br /> <br /> Hi there<br /> To clarify, we don't have any plans for new content for Oblivion, but like Pete said, there are some plans to do something with Oblivion. When I have more information, I'll share it with you guys.<br /> <br /> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&amp;showtopic=977563&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=14139678<br /> <br /> Something could be anything. For instance, the half off DLC promotion we did a few weeks ago was something. There's nothing in the interview that points to new DLC -- Fighter's Stronghold was the last one. Sorry if we got your hopes up.<br /> <br /> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&amp;showtopic=978976&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=14152597<br /> --[[User:75.80.85.65|75.80.85.65]] 20:23, 20 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Elder Scrolls Novel ==<br /> So if a novel of the Elder Scrolls is released, will the full details of the novel (character, setting, plot etc.) be documented on the wiki, or will it be treated more as fan fiction?--[[User:81.158.56.153|81.158.56.153]] 15:10, 27 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> : If it's supported by Bethesda, then it's canon. We will obviously not be hosting the text, but quotes should count as &quot;fair use&quot; for expanding articles. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 27 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Announce when the games are on sale on Steam? ==<br /> <br /> As I post this Morrowind is on sale for $4.99, and all Bethesda games until the 3rd are discounted.<br /> <br /> By the time it gets added to the main page, the sale will probably have passed, but it may be worth noting. -[[User:Nesskid|Nesskid]] 00:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Misnamed news?==<br /> <br /> I'm not sure if I misread the article but the title of the latest news (June 3rd 2010) seems to be inaccurate, as the article does not confirm that there will be no news at E3. Or maybe I am just being pedantic! --[[User:Kvaener|Kvaener]] 17:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Yes, I messed up when I posted it but [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] fixed the title and it's [[UESPWiki:News/News at E3 After All|fine now]]. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Skyrim ==<br /> <br /> Announced at Spike Video Games Awards. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> :[[UESPWiki:News/Skyrim Spike]] &amp;ndash; Awaiting YouTube / news article to link to. Twitter is all over this right now. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:33, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki_talk:News&diff=625946 2010-12-12T01:25:18Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Skyrim */ new section</p> <hr /> <div>is there anything official about the fighters mod for oblivion on the xbox360. i have seen nothing on xboxlive, but i keep catching hints about it. if anyone has information regarding this, please let me know...thanks<br /> <br /> ''Question moved to [[User talk:212.64.93.211]]'' --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:34, 21 December 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == The latest news about Oblivion possibly getting new content... ==<br /> <br /> I'm not much for editing these things so I'll add this to the discussion page and hopefully someone who does this regularly will see it. Someone would probably just have to some along and clean up my mess anyway.<br /> <br /> Here's what Gstaff (Bethesda employee) had to say about it in a topic on the official forums.<br /> <br /> Hi there<br /> To clarify, we don't have any plans for new content for Oblivion, but like Pete said, there are some plans to do something with Oblivion. When I have more information, I'll share it with you guys.<br /> <br /> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&amp;showtopic=977563&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=14139678<br /> <br /> Something could be anything. For instance, the half off DLC promotion we did a few weeks ago was something. There's nothing in the interview that points to new DLC -- Fighter's Stronghold was the last one. Sorry if we got your hopes up.<br /> <br /> http://www.bethsoft.com/bgsforums/index.php?s=&amp;showtopic=978976&amp;view=findpost&amp;p=14152597<br /> --[[User:75.80.85.65|75.80.85.65]] 20:23, 20 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Elder Scrolls Novel ==<br /> So if a novel of the Elder Scrolls is released, will the full details of the novel (character, setting, plot etc.) be documented on the wiki, or will it be treated more as fan fiction?--[[User:81.158.56.153|81.158.56.153]] 15:10, 27 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> : If it's supported by Bethesda, then it's canon. We will obviously not be hosting the text, but quotes should count as &quot;fair use&quot; for expanding articles. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 15:12, 27 April 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Announce when the games are on sale on Steam? ==<br /> <br /> As I post this Morrowind is on sale for $4.99, and all Bethesda games until the 3rd are discounted.<br /> <br /> By the time it gets added to the main page, the sale will probably have passed, but it may be worth noting. -[[User:Nesskid|Nesskid]] 00:07, 3 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Misnamed news?==<br /> <br /> I'm not sure if I misread the article but the title of the latest news (June 3rd 2010) seems to be inaccurate, as the article does not confirm that there will be no news at E3. Or maybe I am just being pedantic! --[[User:Kvaener|Kvaener]] 17:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Yes, I messed up when I posted it but [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] fixed the title and it's [[UESPWiki:News/News at E3 After All|fine now]]. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:58, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Skyrim ==<br /> <br /> Announced at Spike Video Games Awards. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:25, 12 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Patrollers/Nominations&diff=625407 2010-12-10T02:16:06Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Brf */ Support.</p> <hr /> <div>==Before you Nominate==<br /> If you are nominating yourself, be sure that you have read the [[UESPWiki:Patrollers|Patrollers]] page, and understand what is expected out of a patroller. If you are nominating someone else, make sure you contact them beforehand and make sure they read the Patrollers page.<br /> <br /> It is a good idea to look over the [[UESPWiki:Patrollers/Nominations/Completed|Completed Nominations]] to see what strengths and weaknesses were taken into consideration when others were supported or opposed in previous nominations.<br /> <br /> ==Nominations==<br /> After nomination, there is a one week interval to allow the community to ask questions and vote on the new patroller. After this week, an Administrator will decide on the consensus and add the Patroller role to a successful nominee (if the consensus is to make the nominee a patroller), or drop the nomination (if the consensus is to not make the nominee a patroller).<br /> <br /> ==Current Nominations==<br /> If you would like to nominate someone (including yourself) add his/her name below, with a reason for the nomination.<br /> <br /> ===[[User:Brf|Brf]]===<br /> <br /> With his permission, I'm nominating Brf as a patroller. Brf joined in April 2008 but has become particularly active over the last ten weeks, during which time he has made a couple of thousand very useful edits, mainly to the Morrowind namespace. His edits have long passed the point at which I feel it necessary to check them in detail, which is the main test for patroller-ship. As the only regular Morrowind patroller at the moment, I would find it very useful to have an extra, experienced pair of eyes to help keeping things accurate, and Brf definitely fits the bill.<br /> <br /> * I officially accept this nomination. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 18:29, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' As nominator. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 18:16, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Support:''' I was just thinking the same thing a couple of days ago. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:35, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Support''': I was the one that nominated Brf for the first time and my vote remains the same, support. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 19:47, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Support''': I'm pretty much helpless when it comes to Morrowind patrolling, and have followed Brf's impressive output for the longest time. No doubt at all; welcome to the team! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:53, 9 December 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> *'''Support''': I believe I contacted him about this a while ago. Everything still stands.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:00, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> * '''Support''': I might well have supported him the first time were it not for the fact that he was still pretty new and had mostly done link fixes at that point. Now that he's had more experience, and from recent discussion on his talk page, clearly understands what this is all about, he's definitely got my support. I'm sure rpeh will appreciate the help patrolling MW space too! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:15, 9 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Support''' &amp;ndash; No complaints. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:16, 10 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Completed Nominations==<br /> Completed nominations can be viewed on [[UESPWiki:Patrollers/Nominations/Completed|this page]].</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc&diff=625257 2010-12-09T18:07:32Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* RE: Userfy-ing Review */ new section</p> <hr /> <div>* [[User talk:TheAlbinoOrc/Archive/1|Archive 1]]<br /> <br /> ==Seer==<br /> I haven't seen you working on Seer recently. It's one of the few fanfics in this site that do not get boring after 10 lines. Is there any specific reason? --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 21:38, 19 November 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :Other things have been taking up my time recently. I'll get back to it soon.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Well that's odd ==<br /> <br /> You have one of the stranger userpages on here I think. &lt;tt&gt;:D&lt;/tt&gt; What's the reason for the little thing of text in the center and nothing else? Just curious by the way.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'd love to be able to think of an exciting, compelling and utterly untrue explanation, but the only reason is me being obtuse, really. :D --[[User:Vometia|Vometia]] 19:26, 21 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Speaking of Odd ==<br /> <br /> You may want to consider getting rid of the &quot;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot; section of your signature. Chrome, at least, never respected that tag, but IE9 does and renders your signature sideways. It's...rather disruptive...when you've got a few of them on a talk page. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:56, 5 December 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :So that's why people were telling me it was weird. Now fixed. Thanks!--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 05:05, 6 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RE: Userfy-ing Review ==<br /> <br /> Thanks for letting me know, but I wasn't really paying attention for those three months &lt;nowiki&gt;:(&lt;/nowiki&gt; --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 18:07, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Michaeldsuarez&diff=625256 2010-12-09T18:04:31Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: Fixing.</p> <hr /> <div>&lt;div class=&quot;usermessage&quot; style=&quot;-moz-border-radius:.5em; text-align:center; border-width:1px; padding:.2em;&quot;&gt;'''Hi, I'm [[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]]. If you have any problems, comments, or anything else you want to say, feel free to tell me here. However, please be aware that I'm not active here anymore; I work on and administrate certain wikis outside of UESP.'''&lt;/div&gt;<br /> {{User:Michaeldsuarez/Welcome}}<br /> '''[[User: Michaeldsuarez|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Michaeldsuarez&lt;/span&gt;]] [[File:MW-npc-M'Aiq the Liar.jpg|20px]] &lt;sup&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;([[User talk: Michaeldsuarez|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]])/([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/span&gt;]])&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:53, 17 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> {{NewLeft}}<br /> <br /> {{TOCright}}<br /> <br /> ==Easter Eggs==<br /> The [[Oblivion:Easter Eggs|Easter Eggs]] page is being revamped. You may need to adjust your User Page once it's done. {{Unsigned|RobinHood70}}<br /> :Yeah, it was a long time before I had my first talk page submission too. :) --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] 20:47, 21 February 2008 (EST)<br /> Just FYI, the revamp is now done. Your Giant Mudcrab entry should be updated to: [[Oblivion:Interesting_Places#Giant_Mudcrab]]. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] 21:22, 23 February 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Unknown File Uploaded==<br /> Hi, In response to your question mike, I am a mmorpg fan and avid gamer like the rest, I like to surpass known boundaries of the games I play as I enjoy a challenge, I always strive to show that what others may think is impossible is possible(all is possible with the right frame of mind, good long hard work, experience and dedication to task at hand) the submission is a savegame file for ELDER SCROLLS 1: ARENA(old dos game 1st in the line of the named elder scrolls series from bethezda software, I hex edited to create a OP(aka overpowered) dark elf sorceress you of course would know this had you read the page :), opened the file and read the readme for DETAILED explanation of the charactor I designed via experince with hex editing.<br /> <br /> lvl 229 Dark Elf sorceress(yes I exceeded the lvl99 cap peeps say the game normally has?...lol)<br /> full spells list of all needed spells at maximum power varying in type from curses to 1cast kill spells(best one is her deathmissile series for close,range,aoe range that does 100x229{Caster lvl)+100=23k damage in a game where max hp of highest mob was what around 1k?<br /> <br /> all spells have a 0 mana casting cost aka free, and she has the ARTIFACT weapon EBONY BLADE in her inventory plus a full inventory of mob dropped gear, all her stats are maxxed at 100 and she has 30k hp(THUS UNTOUCHABLE in ES1), for full explaination of how to import these files into ARENA see this sites arena section on savegames,<br /> <br /> Anyhow other users who have hex edited savegame submissions in the files section of the UESP arena wiki have lvl 10-29 toons of similar stats etc, but I decided to add one that was more fun (believable,realistic to the gameworld?)<br /> <br /> max stats and stuff at 10-29 are unrealistic in the gameworld of ES, 229 is as well as normal capp is 99 but 229 OP seems more true then a 10-29 and it was of course hard work to do it, anyhow the savegame is there for peeps who want to play ES1 just to get a feel for the series and how it began but don't want to or are unable to spend eon's(ES1 lvling system sucked compared to the later versions like morrowind) trying to get to max get artifact weapon and kick butt spells and just want to play a (GODLIKE?) sorceress for a while to alieviate boredom or for fun what else?<br /> <br /> being new to the site and not a admin I could upload it but not place it in the arena page section for savedgames :P<br /> Yes I did ask permission before upload, in sites irc channel, got a yes and explaination on how to do it from them.<br /> anyhow all the luv, peace and enjoy LilithChan.(sorry bout long post but seems to be nowhere to send private mail on this thing? feel free to edit it out once you are satisfied with my answer.) {{Unsigned|LilithChan}}<br /> <br /> :Let me clarify. Lilith-chan here modded an Arena save game to superhuman proportions (just like using console in OB or MW, only much harder), and the admins green-lighted the uploading of it to UESP via a long discussion in the IRC. As for you, Lilith, you really need to work on your grammar and spelling. If I hadn't known about this, I would've assumed it was spam as well. [[User:Vesna|Vesna]] 22:21, 23 February 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Stubs?==<br /> Hi, just noticed you adding stub tags to some Morrowind NPC pages. Can you be a little more clear about why you believe these articles are stubs? At the moment I can't see what's supposedly missing from these pages. Thanks! –[[User:Eshe|Eshe]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;22:51, 27 February 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Thanks==<br /> Thank you for editing my fanfiction story. I didn't notice some of those errors. However, you changed &quot;nocked&quot; to &quot;knocked.&quot; &quot;Nocked&quot; means to place the end of an arrow on to the bowstring, as opposed to &quot;knocked,&quot; like knocking on a door. --[[User:Twentyfists|Twentyfists]] 13:43, 2 March 2008 (EST)<br /> <br /> ==Vandalism==<br /> Hi Michaeldsuarez! Thanks for cleaning up that nonsense earlier. However, I just wanted to suggest that you be a little more careful about labeling edits as [[UESPWiki:Vandalism|vandalism]] in your edit summaries. It's okay when the edit is clearly intended to be hostile, but in some cases it's just the result of a new editor who isn't entirely aware of what's going on. It's best to not run the risk of offending someone who might have had good intentions. When in doubt, [[UESPWiki:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]. Thanks, and keep up the good work! –[[User:Eshe|Eshe]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt;20:26, 20 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Signature==<br /> Hi, Michaeldsuarez! Thanks for all the work you've been doing on the site lately, such as adding unsigned templates, welcoming new users, and answering questions :) I noticed your new signature a while back, and wasn't too sure about it, but not knowing of any actual problems, I didn't say anything. However, some other discussion today prompted me to look up [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ASignatures Wikipedia's policy on signatures], including their [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ASignatures#Images prohibition of images] and a strict [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia%3ASignatures#Length 255 character limit] on the length of signatures. Generally, we fall back on Wikipedia policy in any cases where UESP hasn't had a reason to come up with a UESP-specific version of the policy. In this case, wikipedia provides some pretty good reasons for their policies, and overall I agree with their concerns about signatures that make talk pages more difficult to read. There's also the very real possibility that the next time our wiki software is updated, the 255 character limit will be introduced into the software, at which point it won't just be policy but hard-wired code that will break your signature (which is currently 318 characters long). I think almost every other editor's signature is well under 150 characters in length. So any chance you could remove the image and shorten the signature a bit? For example, you should only need at most one &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;color:green;&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; tag to turn your signature green, rather than three; that change alone should reduce your signature by about 70 characters. Thanks :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:23, 25 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> :I noticed you wrote on Nephele's talk page that you had to add more color tags because links automatically turn blue. I'm not sure whether all HTML codes work on the wiki, but if so then type at the beginning of the sig: &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;div style=&quot;text:green; link:green; vlink:green&quot;&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt; and at the end of the sig: &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;&lt;/div&gt;&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. That ''should'' turn all text, links, and visited links green. I say should because I'm not certain whether this will work in the wiki. Hope it does though. - [[User:Game_Lord|Game Lord]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Game_Lord|Talk]]|[[Special:Contributions/Game_Lord|Contribs]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:48, 28 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Fanfiction==<br /> In the future, I think I and the other contributors to the fanfiction page would appreciate it if edits were reserved for the other pages on the wiki. I appreciate your interest in patrolling what you consider to be proper grammatical conventions, and thank you for pointing out the two actual typos on the page, but some things (like spelling &quot;humour&quot; with a U or deciding whether to capitalize adjective versions of Tamrielic race names) are better left to the creativity of the author. --[[User:Kementari|Kementari]] 20:00, 25 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> :Ahem, I meant &quot;like,&quot; and did not mean &quot;as if.&quot; If it really irked you, you coulda posted on the talk page. [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 21:12, 27 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> ::Thus done. Please feel free to &quot;review&quot; on the talk pages of my fics, but don't change without my explicit OK. [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 21:15, 27 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> :::Oh, yes, all a high school student like myself needs is an additional English teacher. Look, I post my fanfics here for myself. You understood what I meant, so that's all I need. I appreciate that you're trying to help, but this fic was so close to being scrapped so many times, you're lucky to see it at all. Either butt out, or tell me directly that you wish me to stop writing if I mangle your precious language so much. [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 21:52, 27 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> ::::Michael, I realize my previous comment was rude, but I'm frustrated. I'm sorry for &quot;snapping&quot; at you. I realize that the grammar may not have been perfect, but the colloquial use wasn't a glaring error, nothing that needed to be pointed out. Anyway, I think your grammatical skills would be best directed at the wiki's informational pages. Have you seen some of the Daggerfall articles?<br /> ::::Forgive me for my outburst? [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 22:02, 27 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> :::::Oh, me too! Are you as tired as I am of the question, &quot;So, what are you doing next year?&quot;? Ech, I get that every time I tell someone I'm a senior. As for the Daggerfall articles, I know very little myself, but those articles need all first-person removed, grammar fixed, etc. And you and I know enough to do that sort of thing, even if we don't know the game. [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 22:13, 27 March 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Prod for Deletion==<br /> Thanks for the tip however it was not me who wanted to propose deletion. It was Refre. {{Unsigned|Herkron}}<br /> <br /> Sorry again, it was Rpeh. We have solved the problem now though. [[User:Herkron|Herkron]] 18:58, 1 April 2008 (EDT)h<br /> <br /> == Thanks for adding quests ==<br /> <br /> Hi Michael! Thanks for adding quests, if you are interested, there is a current project going on, [[UESPWiki:Morrowind_Redesign_Project#Current_tasks|Quests that need checking]] The Disp. Rep colums need &quot;+&quot; added and check for {{fin}} as well. It'd be great to get all the quests up to standard. Again, just a suggestion if you are looking for stuff to edit. Cheers, --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:24, 4 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Welcome Message ==<br /> <br /> I've been wondering whether or not to say anything for a while, but the latest edit makes me feel this is necessary: Please can you stop using your custom welcome message? The NOEDITSECTION will stop edit links appearing on anybody's page at any point, which makes talk pages a lot more difficult to use. Even without that I've been uneasy about the template. The purpose of giving the users a welcome isn't just to say hi, it's to give them a selection of helpful links. Your message still does that but I can't help but feel that new users are more likely to wonder what the heck a fishy stick is instead. It's great that you're taking the time to welcome new users but I'd feel better if it were done a little more seriously. Thanks. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 01:26, 8 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> :I know you put a lot of effort into it, but... wow! The new edition is monstrous, it takes over the whole page... I'd say less is more here. Definitely a distraction on the Talk pages from what they are ment to do there, you know, '''Talk'''. --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:49, 9 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == New Users ==<br /> <br /> How exactly do people know when there is a new user? [[User:Puddle|Puddle]] 00:00 April 11, 2008<br /> <br /> == Screenshots ==<br /> <br /> How do you retrieve a screenshot after you take it in game? (I didn't know where to put this) [[User:Puddle|Puddle]] 5:55 April 13, 2008 (GMT)<br /> <br /> == '''Stop!''' ==<br /> <br /> What are you doing? Why are you created masses of irrelevant Userboxes all of a sudden? What do you hope to achieve by this? Who do you think is going to use them? We don't need all of these extra Userboxes! Even if someone placed one on their page, it would likely be very temporary, as it's not hard to be promoted at any stage in a faction. If this person is roleplaying in real life, which is unlikely, then I'm sure they would rather create their own which would: a) Shorten the loading time of the page, as there would be one less template to worry about and; b) They would be able to customise it to their own taste. You're taking up valuable Server bandwidth here - Please cease and desist! --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]] 08:10, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> :Hold up! Seriously! --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]] 08:46, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> ::Also you are clogging up the recent changes screen with your vast number of edits in the past hour alone, please can you at least slow down a bit? --[[User:Volanaro|Volanaro]] 08:47, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Welcome Template (Again). ==<br /> <br /> Your template has not been approved by the admins, whereas the one in use currently has been. Why do you think Rpeh replaced your template on so many talk pages? Why do you think I have just done the same? We have discussed this more than once, and I do not wish to have to roll through the whole thing again. --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]] 11:23, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> :Templates do not have to be &quot;approved by admins&quot; before being used. Nothing on the site needs to be approved by admins before being done. The community makes decisions here, and in this case there has been absolutely no community discussion or decision. So stop enforcing non-existent rules, HMSVictory. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 11:58, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Temporarily Blocked ==<br /> <br /> {| style=&quot;margin:0 5%; padding:.5em; background:#FFFFEE; border: 1px solid #CCCCAA; background-color: #FFFFEA; text-align:left&quot;<br /> |<br /> [[Image:Stop hand.png]] <br /> |<br /> I am blocking both you and HMSVictory for 15 minutes to make it clear that your edit-warring is totally unacceptable. I am doing this under the &quot;...prevent disruptive contributions from being made to the UESPWiki&quot; part of the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] because the behaviour both of you have demonstrated in the past few minutes is more nothing more than a waste of everybody's time.<br /> <br /> At this point I don't care who is wong and who is right or whether even such a decision has any meaning. When this block expires, stop undoing each other's posts or another block will be applied with longer duration. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 11:47, 13 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> |}<br /> <br /> == Are you still active in the Morrowind Redesign Project? ==<br /> <br /> I am making a push in the Bloodmoon and Tribunal Stubs, if you want to help out. Still lots to do... if not, it's cool, just wanted to know. -[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:38, 14 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Fanfiction Opportunity ==<br /> <br /> Michaeldsuarez, as one of editors of this site who I feel deserves this opportunity, I am offering you a chance to have a character request in my new Fancfiction project, ''Rise and Fall'' (details [[User:HMSVictory/Gamma|here]]) I am only offering this to a few users, and you have been selected! (how corny was ''that''?) Anyway, if you would like me to add your character idea to the story, just let me know. I'm currently in the planning stages, so there's plenty of time. --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:20, 20 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Apology ==<br /> <br /> Michaeldsuarez, I apologise for my recent aggresiveness towards your welcome messages, My understanding was that Rpeh wanted all your welcome messges removed from user talk pages, I now nwo that I misinterpreted this and I now understand he only wanted the original message removed. Also I apologise if you fell HMSVicory and I were conspiring against you, this was never my intent. You obviously have a brilliant knowledge of both how the site runs and wiki syntax, as shown in your custom welcome message so I hope I have not discouraged you from using the site as I for one appreciate everything you have done so far, I do not want to speak for anyone else but I for one hope to see you back eventually. --[[User:Volanaro|Volanaro]] 08:15, 25 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Sixth house ==<br /> <br /> Are you still making it? the first part was great and i would love to see how it ends. {{Unsigned|124.176.113.142}}<br /> <br /> ==Fanfiction==<br /> Hey, we've been reformating the fanfiction pages and moving them from the General namespace to Userspace. I was wondering if you could update the links on your User page for us (We don't like to mess with user pages without permission). Specifically, the following links need to be changed:<br /> <br /> *General:The Sixth House -&gt; User:Michaeldsuarez/The Sixth House<br /> *General:The Zeroes Guild -&gt; User:Michaeldsuarez/The Zeroes Guild<br /> <br /> Thanks.--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 14:15, 5 July 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Images up for deletion ==<br /> <br /> Just wanted to let you know that two images currently used only on your Userboxen page are currently proposed for deletion. They are [[:Image:Cliffracer.jpg]] and [[:Image:MWCreature-AshVampire.jpg]]. They have since been replaced with [[:Image:MW-creature-Cliff Racer.jpg]] and [[:Image:MW-creature-Ash Vampire.jpg]], respectively, if you would like to replace them. If you don't reply to this after a reasonable amount of time, the images will be deleted anyhow, and you'll have blank spaces where they used to be. Just so you know. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:57, 22 July 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Link? ==<br /> <br /> Could you provide a link to the discussion you mention [[User_talk:Temple-Zero#Imperial Library|here]]? I'd be interested in reading it. Thanks. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 16:38, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> :[http://www.imperial-library.info/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1217584717/16#16 Here], just found it. --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:50, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Well that's going to make me look bad. :P<br /> I was hoppin' mad.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 19:03, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> {{NewLine}}<br /> ==M'aiq is curious about Michaeldsuarez, but wishes him well==<br /> [[Image:Fishystick.jpg|thumb|left|[[User:M'aiq the Liar|Maiq]] wishes he had a stick made out of fishies to give to you. Sadly, he does not.]]<br /> {{Newline}}<br /> == Other Users' Pages ==<br /> <br /> Please don't edit pages in other users' spaces unless they have explicitly said that it's okay. If you want to suggest changes to the user who owns the sub-page or sandbox, you should post a message on their talk page. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 16:46, 19 March 2009 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Unsigned Tags ==<br /> <br /> Thanks for adding these, but there's another parameter you can add to give the date too. &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{unsigned|Account|Date}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;, so for instance, &lt;code&gt;&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Unsigned|24.31.156.165|29 May 2008}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;&lt;/code&gt;. –[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 19:47, 23 July 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Sandbox ==<br /> <br /> Would you mind if I deleted your sandbox? At the moment it's causing most of the links on the [[Special:WantedTemplates|WantedTemplates]] page and has long since been superseded by a revised template. Thanks. –[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 16:10, 25 July 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Morrowind Prophecies ==<br /> <br /> Hi Michaeldsuarez! I was just looking at the references you listed on [[Morrowind:Radd Hard-Heart]] and [[Morrowind:Sjoring Hard-Heart]], and I was wondering...which ''Morrowind Prophecies'' strategy guide does this information come from, the regular edition or the GOTY edition? Just thought it might be helpful to specify in case someone were to go looking for it ;). Thanks! –[[User:Eshe|Eshe]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Eshe|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:58, 6 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Back on OblivioWiki==<br /> This is Mbjones90, and I'd just like to ask that if you get on here before logging on to OblivioWiki, please make a bit of haste. ~Mbjones90 [[Special:Contributions/70.233.234.133|70.233.234.133]] 04:41, 15 November 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Thanks a heap ==<br /> <br /> I like the fishy stick thing, haha, thanks for helping out with my clump of a user page ^_^<br /> [[User:Mortariit|Mor&amp;#39;tar&amp;#39;iit]] 01:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == ... ==<br /> <br /> Calliope isn't rpeh? Really? REALLY? –[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Elliot|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:31, 7 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I would ask you for evidence, but I assume you would just pull a MDS-ism and not provide anything substantial. –[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Elliot|talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:04, 8 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Is that right? ==<br /> <br /> Your comment and sumary [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Patrollers/Nominations&amp;curid=17813&amp;diff=555813&amp;oldid=555751&amp;rcid=574907 here] don't seem to back up your actual vote... [[User:Dlarsh|Dlarsh]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User_talk:Dlarsh|T]],[[Special:Contributions/Dlarsh|C]])&lt;/sup&gt; 14:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Patroller Vote ==<br /> <br /> Are you sure that vote is the right way around? An edit summary of &quot;Finally, a nomination I agree with&quot;, a statement &quot;I don't have any reason to say no.&quot; - but you vote &quot;Strong Oppose&quot;? I don't understand. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:49, 16 March 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Abusive E-mail by Elliot ==<br /> <br /> I've removed the image from Elliot's page and put a Speedy deletion tag on the image itself. While I understand your point, even if it's abusive there's still an expectation of privacy when sending a private e-mail. The appropriate action would be to send copies of the screenshot or the e-mail itself privately to an administrator and then ask them to take the appropriate action. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;font-variant:small-caps; color:royalblue;&quot;&gt;'''Robin Hood'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;color:royalblue; line-height:0; font-size:7pt; vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :RH beat me to it, but ditto. While in this case there's cause for an administrator to see what's going on, a private email shouldn't generally be made public unless it's clear that any involved parties consent. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::''moved from [[User_talk:GuildKnight]] to keep conversation in a single place'' --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Alright, but will any action be taken against Elliot? I don't want Elliot to think that he could do anything he wishes without consequence. He also didn't reply to my message; he's ignoring it. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 11:12, 8 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::(To explain for community members that weren't following, this discussion is regarding [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3AElliot&amp;diff=569253&amp;oldid=568773 this edit], which included an image of an email sent by Elliot to MDS.)<br /> :::Elliot's lack of civility has been an on-going problem in the community, and I've personally spoken with him about this along with many other things; however, by providing an address for the &quot;E-mail this user&quot; function, you're saying that you're okay with a form of contact that can't be regulated/controlled by the wiki. I can't tell you how many downright vicious emails I've received via &quot;E-mail this user&quot;, but I just smile to myself, pleased in the knowledge that someone was able to relieve themselves of some of their stress thanks to me. Besides, were we to finagle a way to take action against Elliot for sending this email, it would only be fair that action be taken against you as well for making a private conversation public without consent. There's a cycle of negativity going on here, and until someone does something to introduce ''positivity'' to the cycle instead of grabbing at every opportunity for conflict, it's going to continue. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Alright. No conflicts then :) --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 13:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Stay out of it ==<br /> <br /> Since you seem so inclined to shove your nose in all the drama here (you say that's all I do, but I can't remember a helpful thing ''you'' did), I am going to tell you to stop. Just stop. It may be appropriate over at ED, but here, it is not. No one cares about &quot;doing it for the lulz&quot; here.<br /> <br /> I would also like to mention the difference between my and Dr Jones' list. I am not insulting users, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User:Dr_Jones&amp;oldid=474498 unlike him]. Inquiring about the suspicious behavior of newer users is hardly an insult, especially when a users displays a drastic change in behavior. So, there is no drama to be had here; sorry to disappoint. '''''[[User:Elliot|&lt;span style=&quot;color:#002BB8;&quot;&gt;Elliot&lt;/span&gt;]]&amp;nbsp;[[User_talk:Elliot|&lt;small&gt;(&lt;span style=&quot;color:#002BB8;&quot;&gt;talk&lt;/span&gt;)&lt;/small&gt;]]''''' 17:02, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> :MDS: Yep, you're free to decide what you want to keep on your talk page; sorry for jumping in. I just didn't want you to feel like you needed to respond to the comment -- and, even now, responding might not be entirely fair given that Elliot can no longer participate in the discussion. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:55, 7 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Image in Signature ==<br /> <br /> Hi MDS. Back in 2008, you had an image in your signature. The topic of whether this was allowed or not came up recently, and I confirmed at [[Wikipedia:WP:SIG|WP:SIG]] that it's not. You can read all the reasoning there. Just so that other users don't think it's allowed, I'm removing all the images from any old talk pages except your own talk page, of course. Hope you understand. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:04, 20 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == RE: Your Comment on AN ==<br /> <br /> The only difference between your case in May and mine is that you published the image of the email without consulting an admin (to my knowledge). This is just to clarify, in case you thought I was somehow using my Patroller &quot;status&quot; or something like that to ensure ''I'' get to do stuff and you don't. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:37, 8 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Then excuse me for even more confusion! I'm sorry if you thought I was in some way offended ;) I was trying to avoid misunderstandings... but it looks like I've just created more! I think I'll shut up now ;P --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 07:52, 9 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Userfy-ing Review ==<br /> <br /> Heyla! The Userfy-ing system for roleplays has reached the three month mark and is up for review. You voted so you should have a chance to take a look at this.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 17:14, 9 December 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GuildKnight&diff=623181 2010-12-03T15:20:47Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Baby Box */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>&lt;center&gt;[http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:GuildKnight&amp;action=edit&amp;section=new Talk2me] • [[Special:Emailuser/GuildKnight|Email]] • [[User:GuildKnight/Archive|Archives]] • [[User:GuildKnight/Treats|Treats]]&lt;/center&gt;<br /> ----<br /> ----<br /> {{TOCright}}<br /> == Since You Have The CS (Right?) ==<br /> <br /> Could you take a look at my comment about what may be causing [[OB_talk:Kurdan gro-Dragol#Aggressive behavior|Kurdan's problem]]? Sorry to bug you by the way - normally I'd ask RH or Rpeh but they don't seem to be on right now.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Sorry, I can understand if someone's explaining what I see in the CS, but that's too complicated for me to understand unless I have someone walking me through it. As far as your suggestion goes, I really don't know... it sounds too simple to be the case, but sometimes the simplest answer is the right one. Unfortunately, I'm not really educated enough in the CS to investigate it. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:39, 12 October 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::Ah. Okay then. By the way if you have a minute could you take a look at [[UESPWiki:Patrollers/Nominations#Current Nominations|this]] and [[UESPWiki:Community Portal#Would Anyone Mind If|this]] since no-one seems to have seen them?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Serif; color: #000; #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''Ghurhak gro-Demril''' &lt;sub&gt;or TAO&lt;/sub&gt;]]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Yes?]]&lt;/font color=midnightblue&gt;&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:58, 12 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I responded at the CP... as far as the nom goes, since I'm an admin I prefer to let others voice their opinions first, so it doesn't seem like people are just repeating what an admin said. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:28, 12 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == 4 years!!! ==<br /> <br /> Today you completed 4 years into UESPWiki! Congratulations! --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk to me]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|My work]] •&lt;/span&gt; 12:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Thanks! --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:44, 16 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::You're welcome. Now head for 5 years! --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk to me]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|My work]] •&lt;/span&gt; 19:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Baby Box ==<br /> <br /> How's this? You can put the due date into year2, month2, and day2.<br /> {{Pre|&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Userbox<br /> |id-c=#FFCCCC<br /> |id=[[File:SI-ico-Summon Flesh Atronach.png|45x45px]]<br /> |info=This user is having a baby girl in {{ForYMD|year={{CURRENTYEAR}}|month={{CURRENTMONTH}}|day={{CURRENTDAY}}|year2=2011|month2=1|day2=1|unitsep=&amp;amp;nbsp;}}.<br /> }}&lt;/nowiki&gt;}}<br /> {{NewLine}}<br /> {{Userbox<br /> |id-c=#FFCCCC<br /> |id=[[File:SI-ico-Summon Flesh Atronach.png|45x45px]]<br /> |info=This user is having a baby girl in {{ForYMD|year={{CURRENTYEAR}}|month={{CURRENTMONTH}}|day={{CURRENTDAY}}|year2=2011|month2=1|day2=1|unitsep=&amp;nbsp;}}.<br /> }}<br /> {{NewLine}}<br /> &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:49, 16 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Perfect! Thanks! --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:36, 17 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A heart? What, you didn't like my &quot;Summon Flesh Atronach&quot; idea? I thought it was ''so'' much more appropriate. &lt;tt&gt;:Þ&lt;/tt&gt; &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 07:05, 17 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Congrats. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 15:20, 3 December 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Move Protection ==<br /> <br /> GK, can you put Move Protection to TES Travels? I already asked Krusty but I had no response. --[[User:Rigas Papadopoulos|Rigas Papadopoulos]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-medium&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;• [[User_Talk:Rigas Papadopoulos|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Rigas Papadopoulos|Deeds]] •&lt;/span&gt; 18:47, 27 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Done. Thanks for pointing it out. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Hey ==<br /> <br /> hey i answered your question on the glacier crawl discussion page. I just wanted to put it on there but then i realized you may not have watched the page. :) hit me up for a chat I dont mind helping on the oblivion interiors i just dont know where to start [[User:Kinvalor75|Kinvalor75]] 23:37, 13 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == What should I do? ==<br /> <br /> i just made my account here yesterday but i have no idea how to contribute to the site since im not that good at formating pages but i really want to help, what should i do?[[User:NSA KanickKnack|NSA KanickKnack]] 19:49, 27 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Hi there - welcome to UESP! There's a list of outstanding tasks [[UESPWiki:Task List|here]], and there are a couple of projects like the [[UESPWiki:Oblivion NPC Redesign Project|Oblivion NPC Redesign Project]] and the [[UESPWiki:Oblivion Places Redesign Project|Oblivion Places Redesign Project]] around too. If that seems too daunting, going through quests and making sure our quest pages are accurate is always useful. Even looking at random pages and making sure all the spelling is okay is useful. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:00, 27 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Thanks for the welcome and thanks for pointing me in the right direction. [[User:NSA KanickKnack|NSA KanickKnack]] 02:59, 28 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == [[Special:Contributions/Exodus|Bad User]] ==<br /> <br /> Do something please? --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 01:21, 29 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Thanks. --&lt;font color=mediumpurple&gt;[[User:DKong27|DKong27]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:DKong27|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/DKong27|Cont]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/font&gt; 01:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::No problem. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=602748 2010-09-14T23:20:37Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for New Roleplaying System==<br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least &lt;del&gt;10-15&lt;/del&gt; 5 users using this new system at the end of the three months,<br /> :#There are &lt;del&gt;15-25&lt;/del&gt; 15 unresolved complaints and/or problems involving the system by the end of the three months (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from &lt;del&gt;15-25&lt;/del&gt; 15 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are a combination of 25 resolved and unresolved complaints and/or problems involving the system. <br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 3 before the 3 months, it's apparent that the system is too flawed to serve any further. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> '''Changes''': To address GK's excellent points, there have been some changes to the requirements. The number of users who need to be using the system is now 5; the reason behind this being that we want to know that the system is usable and not too difficult to follow. I've also changed the complaint requirement to 15 ''unresolved'' problems. A new added requirement is that there can't be a combination of 25 complaints/problems with the system: if there is that many problems, we know it isn't working. <br /> <br /> ===Votes===<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : &lt;s&gt; Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * &lt;del&gt;'''Extremely Weak Support'''&lt;/del&gt; &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** &lt;del&gt;'''Switched to Oppose'''&lt;/del&gt; &amp;ndash; Until GK's concerns are addressed. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 22:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *** '''Switched to Support''' &amp;ndash; Moving on now. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 16:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Does WP:Snowball apply to UESP? Disclaimer: I'm not saying that it should, especially since this is the first day of voting. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::MDS: It's been used on UESP before, so I suspect it could be used in this case as well.<br /> :::Matt: Typical time is about a week, but if there are no major flaws pointed out and everybody seems to be supporting the idea, I suspect we could wrap it up before then as MDS suggests. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Thanks. I'm just making sure that the voting process doesn't end prematurely. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Admin Request''' Can I request that the message currently on top of the roleplaying pages now read- &quot;This page is temporarily locked until [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subjective Content|this discussion]] is resolved. In particular, a [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subjective Content#Proposal for New Roleplaying System|new system]] has been proposed for the roleplaying pages; anyone is free to vote on this proposal.&quot; This should make it easier for people who'd rather not read the whole discussion to know what's going on. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 02:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Sounds reasonable. I'll change the notice on the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 04:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''' - A bit worried that it will screw up, but hey, we've at least gotta give a go! :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Support'''&lt;/s&gt; Praying to Jygalag (Daedra Lord of Order) that this works out. What do we do if it doesn't though?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Get rid of the system first, then unlock everything. I guess everything will go back the way it was, unless another user proposes something else. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 21:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: Thinking it about the roleplaying pages might be more Sheogorath's sphere.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Weak Oppose&lt;/s&gt;Support''' - Most of this proposal makes perfect sense to me. My few concerns have to do with details. I think the details need to be ironed out before we implement.&lt;br&gt;'''1:''' I've [[User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/8|sandboxed]] a version of the [[ob:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] article that seems to be appropriate as this goes live. It makes a few large-scale changes, including a little bit of explanation on the new system and some links. I also trimmed the suggestions down, eliminating anything that wasn't general enough (more specific things can go on users' pages).&lt;br&gt;'''2:''' &quot;At least 10-15 users using this system&quot;? What? What if it's twelve? It should really be a set number, and though I don't like saying &quot;we have to have this many people using it&quot;, I'd rather see it at ten.&lt;br&gt;'''3:''' &quot;There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems&quot;? Again, what? What if there's twenty? On this one, though, if in three months we have fifteen ''legitimate'' complaints or issues, it's obviously not working. So, I'd go with fifteen.&lt;br&gt;'''4:''' &quot;If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with.&quot; I don't like this concept. Problems may come up that we'll be able to resolve, so I'd rather say that: if at the end of the three months, there's fifteen or more valid and legitimate issues that we don't have a solution for, then it would be time to consider other alternatives.&lt;br&gt;&lt;s&gt;If and when these details are clarified, I'll change my vote to &quot;Support&quot;.&lt;/s&gt; Since my concerns have been addressed, I fully support this proposal. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Weak Oppose'''&lt;/s&gt; Support &lt;s&gt;I agree with the points GK brought up. Also why should there be 15-20 people using it before three months for it to continue?&lt;/s&gt;Now that that's done let's move it!--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :JP possibly could have meant by three months, but even that nuber is a bit high. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I also support GK's suggestions. I can see why the ranges were given—not to lock it down to specific numbers if we don't feel the system is working—but probably just using the smallest number should be adequate. And her last point about solutions that we can resolve is definitely a good one. Can I suggest we change the original points so we don't get a snowball effect of Opposes over a few guideline tweaks? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I don't get the &quot;What if it's twelve&quot; question. 10-15 covers 12. It also covers 11, 13, and 14. I'm probably tired and missing something obvious, though... --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Yeah, that took me a second to figure out too. She means, what if instead of being higher than 15, it's a borderline number like 12. If you have 12 with a rule like &quot;at least 10-15&quot;, did you make the requirement or not? Better to have a definitive number. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::TAO and AMM: y'all were right, the number of people was high. The reason that was a requirement is because I wanted to know that at least some users would be able to use the system without difficulty.<br /> :::::GK: the details have been officially ironed. I was hoping you would give your expert opinion. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Oppose''': The high threshold was part of the original proposal and one reason why I voted to support. I object to the terms of the vote being changed after several votes have already been cast. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> *'''Comment''': Actually, I'm striking this vote too. I really don't like the way the issue under discussion was changed during the vote, but I'm going back to my original analysis of &quot;I don't care about this&quot;. I don't patrol existing roleplays and I won't be patrolling them in the future so I'm going to leave this to people who give a damn. I've made my concerns clear, which is all I can do. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Oppose''': I agree with what Michael has to say. [[User:Ninja Hinder|Ninja Hinder]] 22:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Comment''': About a week and a half has passed and the results are clear: Only one oppose when almost every active user who has contibuted to this long mess have voted. Since the RP Ideas are already up and running, I suggest we close the voting. It seems obvious everyone's solveable questions/problems have been fixed and users are already using the new system. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:14, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Seconded. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:20, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Final Wrap-Up==<br /> We are almost right back to where we started with: a problem that's not getting any solution. The only difference is that we have what we're planning on doing. No one has seemed to oppose the procedure of the system, only the details of how we should test the system. The details of this &quot;test drive&quot; are currently too specific to be agreed upon, and maybe even too specific for the system to accurately succeed the test drive. The three things no one has opposed include:<br /> *The system setup,<br /> *The amount of time to give the system for testing (three months),<br /> *That the system ''does'' need testing before being our permanent solution.<br /> And for that reason, the test drive should be a whole different discussion, and preferably a discussion for another day. It's time to start taking action. After looking over the system tonight, I will make the system go live tomorrow. That includes moving the contents of my sandbox to Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas, adding the messages stated above to their appropriate page, and replacing the roleplaying page with the one set in GK's sandbox. In one month, we can check up on the system, looking for specific things like number of users using it, number of issues that have risen, etc. Then we can decide what requirements the system must meet to be permanent. I feel like if I don't do something now, we'll just keep going in circles -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 01:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Sounds like a plan. Can I suggest you simply wipe out the current contents of {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} and put in the message that'll appear on the various subpages. That way, if there's a mistake or we decide to change the wording in the future, we only have to change it in one place. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=602681 2010-09-14T16:48:05Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Excuse Me */ Expanding.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]]<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> {{Archive Table|class=compress|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|Page Archives|<br /> |Archive 1||February 2005 – June 2006<br /> |Archive 2||June 2006 – August 2006<br /> |Archive 3||September 2006 – June 2007<br /> |Archive 4||June 2007 – July 2007<br /> |Archive 5||August 2007 – October 2007<br /> |Archive 6||October 2007 – November 2007<br /> |Archive 7||December 2007 – January 2008<br /> |Archive 8||January 2008 – February 2008<br /> |Archive 9||February 2008 – August 2008<br /> |Archive 10||September 2008 – October 2008<br /> |Archive 11||November 2008 – December 2008<br /> |Archive 12||December 2008 – March 2009<br /> |Archive 13||April 2009 – December 2009<br /> |Archive 14||January 2010 – May 2010<br /> |Archive 15||June 2010<br /> |!|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfA|Aristeo's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jun. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Nephele/RfA|Nephele's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 13, 2006''<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfB|Aristeo's Request for Bureaucrat|''Withdrawn by Aristeo Nov. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Ratwar/RfA|Ratwar's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jan. 31, 2007''<br /> |User:TheRealLurlock/RfA|TheRealLurlock's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Feb. 23, 2007''<br /> |User:Rpeh/RfA|Rpeh's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Oct. 1, 2007''<br /> |UESPWiki:Archive/AN Request for Server Access|Nephele's Request for Server Access|''Approved Jan. 4, 2008''<br /> |User:Eshe/RfA|Eshe's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Mar. 31, 2008''<br /> |User:GuildKnight/RfA|GuildKnight's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Nov. 11, 2008''<br /> |User:Timenn/RfA|Timenn's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 7, 2009''<br /> |User:Krusty/RfA|Krusty's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved May 3, 2010''<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == Blockers ==<br /> <br /> In regards to [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#New_User_Group|this discussion]] and the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard#Updates to Archived Discussions|update to it]], I'm not sure if any agreement was ever established on what admission requirements would be for the new group. In the absence of a formal policy, I'm just going to ask for that right for myself and let others fend for themselves. :) That brings back up the question of how to do it, keeping in mind that whatever is done for me will probably set a precedent:<br /> <br /> #Do I just ask and if one (or maybe all) admins agree, I get the rights?<br /> #Do we want a formal Request for Block Permissions discussion, the same as we would for Patroller or Administrator?<br /> #Do we want to hammer out a formal requirements list?<br /> #Do we want to have a requirements list ''and'' a vote (like Patrollers are now).<br /> #Alternatively, if a requirements list is wanted, but we don't want to wait, we can put the cart before the horse and grant permissions by one of the first two methods, ''then'' put a requirements list in place at a later date.<br /> <br /> Also, semi off-topic, when someone has a chance, I think we can remove Krusty from the Blockers group, as he already has those rights as an Administrator anyway. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 03:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I've created a stub of a page at [[UESPWiki:Blockuser]] (with a redirect at [[UESPWiki:Blockers]]) and added pertinent info to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy]], [[UESPWiki:Administrators]], and [[UESPWiki:User Group Rights]]. I've intentionally tried to avoid describing the process, since we haven't decided.<br /> :My opinions on the matter are that we don't need a formal requirements list or a vote. I ''do'' think, however, that it should be an agreement between at least two admins that an editor is suitable for blockuser rights. It's definitely something we should decide before assigning the rights, though. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with GK. I recall that the entire reason to get the role assignable by admins was to allow the rights to be given quickly and easily when required. If an admin knows that he or she will be away for some time and that no other admin is likely to be around, it should be allowable to simply give the right to some user who is on IRC or obviously active on wiki. The idea is to ensure that there's always somebody around who can block as required. When the admin returns - or another becomes active, the rights could be removed if there's no need for them any more, or they could be left in place - I don't think it matters too much.<br /> :: We definitely don't want a procedural rigmarole over this because it would eliminate the point of the group. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: In light of the current bout of vandalism, with no admin currently available, I would like to formally request to be made part of this group on a long-term basis. Following GK's suggestion in the absence of any other formal procedure, can I get an admin to agree, and a seconder to implement, please? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Ditto. Luckily, it seems as if Nephele was by her computer when I sent out a &quot;please help!&quot; email, but a better suggestion would be to use the facility we now have. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I'm fine with giving Robin Hood blocker permissions. I'm not entirely sure what the proposed process is here, and I'm also not completely sure whether GK was specifically supporting Robin Hood or just generally supporting moving forward. So I haven't actually made any permission changes. However, any admin should be able to grant blocker permissions at this point, assuming someone else wants to second the proposal.<br /> <br /> :::::That said, though, I'm a bit concerned about unrealistic expectations here. Unless dozens of people are given blocker rights (which I'm not inclined to think is appropriate), I don't it's realistic to expect every vandal to be blocked within minutes. Even if an admin is active, the admin is likely to be busy with his/her own wiki project and might not check recent changes more than a couple times an hour. And to expect an admin to delegate someone blocker permissions every time he/she steps away from the computer for an hour seems pretty unrealistic -- especially given that breaks are as likely to be unplanned as planned. So if the issue here is that people think it's unacceptable for it to sometimes take an hour before a vandal is blocked, I don't that issue is about to be solved; I'm not even sure it can really be solved.<br /> <br /> :::::Also, FWIW, I just happened to check recent changes in the ten spare minutes I had between gardening and taking the apples I'd harvested to the homeless shelter. There's no way I could have or would have blocked the user any sooner or later than I did, because that was the only time I spent near my computer all afternoon. My timing was unrelated to Robin Hood's post or to any emails -- I still haven't even checked my email. I just don't want people to start thinking that they need to take unnecessary measures every time there's an admin action, because, at least in this case, those measures made no difference. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Evidently you haven't had time to read discussions referred to at the start of this discussion either. I'll [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#New_User_Group|relink]] the important one so you can refresh your memory.<br /> <br /> ::::::The fact that in this case merely 15 minutes went by before a user with block rights came to the keyboard is immaterial. There have been previous occasions on which it has been more. There have been occasions where, even if the suggested changes had been in operation, the delay would still have been a long time. None of this alters the fact that if RobinHood's request had been acted upon earlier, the site would have experienced less vandalism this evening.<br /> <br /> ::::::This discussion has already taken place and unless somebody has useful objections, there's no reason why the actions previously agreed upon by the community can't be enacted. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 02:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Rpeh, I'd appreciate it if you would stop making blatantly incorrect assumptions about what I have or have not read.<br /> :::::::As for the point at hand, I have already acted upon the community's agreed proposals -- namely I made it possible for admins to add/remove people from the blockers group (an action which in and of itself proves my familiarity with the original discussion). Beyond that, I only see agreement with GK's suggestion that two admins should agree that an editor is suitable for blocker rights. I don't see any other statements by admins (even GK) saying that they support Robin Hood being a blocker, making my statement the first of '''two''' required admin votes. I'm not going to unilaterally take an action when the community has said that two admins must agree. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Well, Nephele, I'd appreciate it if you could act as if you ''had'' read those discussions. Yes I'm glad you acted on my suggestion that the new group should be assignable by Admins. Thank you for that. After that, you appear to have ignored the main thrust of the debate, namely that admins should be able to assign the new group as and when it is required. That was the ''entire point'' of giving admins the ability to assign the new group. If you &quot;don't see any other statements by admins&quot;, please re-read the discussion to which I linked you, and take greater care over comprehension next time. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 05:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}{{ec}} My take on GK's response was a general support on moving forward, not any kind of endorsement of me. As for the unrealistic expectations, I think the goal here is just to have a higher likelihood of someone being around to stop it when vandalism occurs. It may not be flawless, but it'll certainly improve the vandalism situation. Not that the delay was inordinate by any means, but there were several Patrollers around today who could have stopped the vandalism even sooner had they had Blocker rights. Even if it were only the senior-most Patrollers, there were still two of us (that I noticed) who were active at the time. I agree that blocker permissions being given on-the-fly should not be the norm, but it's certainly good to have the ability should the admins need it. (Atreus comes to mind, for example, as someone who might not need/want long-term Blocker permissions, but whom we would all trust to have them for the short term, if needed.)<br /> <br /> In regards to the issue of whether to e-mail an admin or whatever, perhaps it would be a good idea for Admins and long-term Blockers to indicate on the Admin, Blockers, or their user page whether or not users ''should'' contact them by other means if vandalism is going on. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :There were several Patrollers active at the time. Me, S'drassa, RobinHood, and rpeh. I could see why the senior Patrollers would get the rights because there is always a Patroller on and they could handle the tools a little better than per se me. IRC and Email are always good ways to contact a User, but the preference should be listed as a notice. For example; I never check my Email but am ''always'' online in IRC.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 05:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe in the concept of &quot;senior patroller&quot;. I certainly don't consider myself &quot;senior&quot; to any other patroller and I very much doubt RH does either.... except in the purely literal sense of age, and I doubt either of us would rather talk about that!<br /> <br /> :: I still believe the role should be assigned when needed, which is why I asked that it be assignable by admins; something that Nephele, so graciously, granted. At the moment, there seems to be a lack of admins caused by unexpected factors such as pregnancy... although WHY GK couldn't have waited until a more convenient time, I don't know!<br /> <br /> :: The &quot;two admin&quot; suggestion was only a suggestion and never part of any policy. Right now, we probably need at least one other person with block permissions. I don't care who gets given these permissions, but I think we need more coverage.<br /> <br /> :: Since Nephele doesn't trust me (which is fine, because I don't trust her either), give the role to RH and somebody else from the Euro area. All I want is a decent chance of protecting the site around the clock. I don't know why some people think anything else. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 05:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: &quot;Senior&quot; was my doing, and I only meant it in the sense of those who have the most experience with the site, not as any form of ranking. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 07:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::To get back to what this discussion ''should'' be about, I also agree with RH being given block rights, so in light of Neph's endorsement, I've given him the rights. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I noticed right away looking at my Watchlist. Thank you! I'll test-block Joram just to find out how it all works, so don't be surprised if you see blocks of—and if I need it, possibly a single &quot;vandalism&quot; edit from—that account. Oh and you'll make a great Mom, GK. :Þ &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Aw, thanks RH! --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Block Request - [[User:Elliot]] ==<br /> <br /> First of all, I ''am'' aware that this is quite late but bear in mind I was very busy with exams and was therefore unable to post anything till now. I am asking to once again block Elliot, and this time for a month. Below is an email I received on June 18th from Elliot's uesp email, I'm guessing in response to [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=580278&amp;oldid=580232 this] comment.<br /> <br /> :&quot;''Do not involve yourself in matters that concern me you little prick.''<br /> <br /> :-- <br /> :''This e-mail was sent by Elliot to SerCenKing by the &quot;E-mail user&quot; function at UESPWiki.''&quot;<br /> <br /> This is a clear violation of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment WP:HARASS], but not only that: Elliot had been [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Elliot&amp;diff=577166&amp;oldid=577146 blocked] [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Michaeldsuarez&amp;curid=45995&amp;diff=577160&amp;oldid=569531&amp;rcid=597526 for exactly this kind of behaviour]. It appears as if he has yet again '''not''' learnt a lesson from his week long block and I therefore ask for a month-long block in the hope that it will help him understand that this behaviour is unacceptable here at UESP. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:02, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :It might not be my place, but I support disciplinary action against Elliot. I'm sorry you were harassed like that SerCenKing [[User:Corvus|Corvus]] 18:08, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::His block has expired and he has not returned to the site afterward. Some of you may know I was subject to the same thing earlier, but even so, I am going to remain neutral because he has shown no interest in returning.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 18:14, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Core, yes he has. See [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;action=history here]. The email was sent ''after'' his block had expired. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:22, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Done. Ideally, I would have preferred to only block Elliot from using the wiki's email features, given that the immediate cause of the block is solely related to email. However, after looking at the wiki code it doesn't seem possible to do an email block without also blocking the user. Furthermore, I didn't think it was worth wasting my time on finding/creating a way to do an email-only block. In particular, there is no evidence that Elliot plans to make constructive wiki contributions (and in fact he has made statements specifically saying the opposite). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Thanks Neph :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> ::::::I'm not sure if Krusty got my e-mail about this same issue, but since posting the text above isn't a violation of the privacy policy, I received this e-mail from Elliot on June 17: <br /> <br /> <br /> Are you a fucking baby?<br /> <br /> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! He told me to stay off of his page! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Nephele do something! I am too stupid and incompetent to even comprehend rules! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH He hurt my feelings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.<br /> <br /> Grow up you fucking idiot. A retaliatory move like this shows your incompetence on a new level. Just leave the site. You are too retarded to contribute positively to it.<br /> <br /> Leave before you make a further ass out of yourself you worthless pile.<br /> <br /> -- <br /> This e-mail was sent by Elliot to TheAlbinoOrc by the &quot;E-mail user&quot; function at UESPWiki. <br /> <br /> <br /> I'd like to request that if there is any further continuation of this behavior Elliot be blocked permanently. This was presumably received in response to my change of vote and my comment on Nephele's talk page (which I would have clarified and expanded upon but I didn't feel like dealing with it at the time).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;<br /> &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:08, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :In light of the recent email sent to TheAlbinoOrc I suggest that we extend Elliot's block to something like 6 months, maybe even block him indefinitely. It's behaviour like this that led him to his patroller status being stripped from him and another sad thing is that he appears to be continuing his childish behaviour even after Nephele blocked him not that long ago. So yeah, I suggest we extend Elliot's block by a considerable amount. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:24, 4 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Sorry about being late in to the discussion, but [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User_talk:Michaeldsuarez#Abusive_E-mail_by_Elliot I brought this issue up in May, but GK prevented me from taking action]. Elliot is clearly unable to handle the responsibility of the wiki's Email function. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 15:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :Yeah I saw that whole thing unfold, sorry your thing was invalidated because of the privacy policy. At least now what people should do is clear though: Try to contact the Admins and then if they don't respond (or they tell you to bring it up on-wiki) do what was done here.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I don't know if this is grounds for an extension of the block. But Elliot, has just dismissed me as well as several other editors when he has been warned about doing that already. So if it okay with the wiki admins, I am requesting his block to be extended by another month. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 10:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Elliot has the right to remove content from his talk page if he wants to, although saying &quot;Go away&quot; in the edit summary is definitely not helpful. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Yeah it was the &quot;go away&quot; that I was referring to with my comment. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 14:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Question: Has Elliot attempted any kind of apology for this kind of behaviour, and entered some form of undertaking that he will not engage in such behaviour in future? [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 19:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :If you've looked at his {{Pl|User talk:Elliot|talk page|oldid=586076}} recently, you'll see that I encouraged him in that direction, but he ignored it. If he ''has'' done something along these lines, he hasn't done so publicly. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:17, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::In that case, as the purpose of a block is to prevent abusive behaviour, it would only seem logical to extend the block in cases were the subject shows no understanding of why their behaviour is unacceptable. I would suggest extending the block until at the very least an apology is received. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 21:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::I can see your point- but I know that if I had done nothing further wrong after being blocked, and received an extension of the block simply because I hadn't apologized I'd be ready to tear someone's head off (not literally of course). Besides repeated warnings/blocks have had no effect. Why should an apology?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 06:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::He's also just deleted the entire discussion on his talk page claimed it to be &quot;gang warfare.&quot; --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 15:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::So??? As already pointed out, it's his talk page and he is free to remove content (other than official messages) from his talk page. It's also not exactly surprising that he's upset, so just let him be. There's no point in paying attention to the actions of a blocked user that have no impact on the rest of the site. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Possible Block Needed ==<br /> <br /> I think the new user [[User:Cpl.CumInAHam]] falls under the inappropriate username category. --[[Special:Contributions/78.144.134.29|78.144.134.29]] 15:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :By the way that was me who posted the above comment, I just forgot to log in. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 15:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Subdomain Redirecting ==<br /> <br /> It was just brought up in IRC by Magnus that [http://dungeonhack.uesp.net http://dungeonhack.uesp.net] now redirects to [http://www.eqwiki.net/ http://www.eqwiki.net/]. This dosen't seem right to me. Is this something that needs to be fixed by Daveh or Nephele?--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 02:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Good point. I made a small change on the server which hopefully fixes things so they work the way Daveh intended. But if I seem to have introduced any new odd behaviours on content1, bring them up. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Request Semi-Protection ==<br /> <br /> Please can [[Oblivion:Must Have Mods‎]] be semi-protected?<br /> <br /> I'm asking because the last couple of weeks have seen an upsurge in activity on this page and it's difficult to see this in any other light than people pushing either their own mods, or ones that they like. Certainly, none of the additions have been close to &quot;must have&quot;. I'm aware that this is a wiki, and I'm also aware of the [[UESPWiki:Etiquette|Etiquette]] policy, but this is one page where we are giving 3rd party mods the UESP ''imprimatur'', and we should be more careful what is allowed on the page. Restricting edits to &quot;known&quot; accounts at least lets us question the users who add suggestions. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> : All done. You are right, there have been a load of edits to this page in the last couple of days and it is a nuisance, mostly because people tend to add mods that they created themselves - or, like you said, because they like them. If any other admin's object to this semi-protection, let's discuss it. In the meantime, and until we reach a decision, the page might as well be protected. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Thanks, Krusty. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == New namespace ==<br /> <br /> Please can an admin edit [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist|this page]] to add:<br /> &lt;pre&gt;<br /> Dawnstar ; DS ; Dawnstar<br /> &lt;/pre&gt;<br /> ...thanks to Krusty's latest purchase :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Done. Let me know if I screwed anything up. &lt;tt&gt;;)&lt;/tt&gt; --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Well it looks like the Western hemisphere escaped, but I wouldn't want to have been living in the East after that change.... ;) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::: Why didn't it add itself to the sidebar?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: The sidebar is static, not dynamic. The [[User:Nephele|Powers That Be]] have deemed the mobile games to be of insufficient importance to add to the sidebar. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: That, of course, is a discussion we will have to revisit in the very near future. While I'm not sure we need to list all four mobile games in the sidebar, a simple &quot;ES Travels&quot; link would be appropriate, especially if we end up with good coverage on all four games. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection of Oblivion:Mathieu Bellamont ==<br /> <br /> I want to ask an Admin to semi-protect [[Oblivion:Mathieu Bellamont]]'s page, becaue if you look at his page history, you'll see that a third of the edits are from anons, and another third are users reversing the edits of anons. Because he is one of the most infamous Oblivion NPCs, people will be naturally drawn to him and call obscure coincedences &quot;easter eggs&quot;, and because his diary and life story left so much open for guess, many will try and put it on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I disagree. Protection of any type should be used to prevent repeated vandalism, which has not occurred on this article. It doesn't really make much sense to protect it, since every edit by an IP (at least in the last year) though it may have been reverted was made in good faith. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) I'm not sure it is a good idea to start semi-protecting every page that gets a lot of traffic. The reason the Mods page was semi-protected recently was that several anons used it to advertise their own mods, and this is not the case here. They more or less acts in good faith and that is fully justified. A much better alternative on a page like this - instead of several reverts within minutes - is to take it easy, take deep breaths for a few hours, maybe send the anon a message - and then revert. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Blockers, Take 2 ==<br /> <br /> [[User:rpeh|rpeh]] brought up a point in IRC that I had forgotten about or perhaps initially misunderstood (after 5 months, who knows what I was thinking at the time): in the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#New_User_Group|original proposal]], rpeh's intent was that Blocker rights would be granted on a ''very'' short-term basis when an Admin left, then revoked when they returned. I saw the first part of his suggestion as being a permanently-granted role, and reading between the lines, I think some others did too. He tried to clarify in the ensuing discussion, but I think it got lost in the large volume of edits that ensued.<br /> <br /> I certainly hadn't intended to ask for something that wasn't originally intended by the proposal. If others, like me, understood that this would be a permanent right, then all is well. If it's felt that this should be granted on a short-term basis only, then by all means, I'm happy to relinquish the privilege, except as needed. Since this is really a question of whether Admins want to grant the privilege to somebody every time they leave, I think it's really up to them to decide. Thoughts, admins? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:36, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I understood rpeh's original proposal to be that, in addition to having permanent &quot;blockers&quot;, we ''can'' grant temporary rights when necessary on a short-term basis. That's a handy additional feature, but I understood the main proposal to be to create a new group of users that have the permanent right.<br /> :Rereading the original proposal, it also reminded me of the suggestion of a page where blocks performed by non-admins would be listed immediately upon the block being given, so that there's a central page that admins can reference when investigating such blocks. Should that perhaps be a subpage of this page, or of [[UESPWiki:Blockuser]]? --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I could see it going in either place, but my vote would be either in the AN itself or as a subpage of it, just so that it's in a highly-trafficked area that people are more likely to know where to find it. At first, I didn't like the idea of the page, but on consideration, I think it'll give us a convenient location to provide an explanation for the block, to ensure that all appropriate steps were taken, and to have follow-up discussions, if necessary. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Following up on my thoughts [[#Removal of Blocked Notice for RoBoT|below]] about IRC and official wiki decisions, I think we also need some type of official wiki statement from Timenn about rpeh's current Blocker rights. Specifically, are those rights supposed to be temporary? In which case, how long are they supposed to last, or under what conditions are they supposed to expire? In fact, I think perhaps the Blocker policy needs to be amended to state that any time temporary blocker rights are given, there needs to be some record of the expected duration of those rights (perhaps using the [[UESPWiki:Blockers#Current Blockers|Current Blockers]] list, or probably even simply by including the expected duration in the comment written when assigning the rights).<br /> <br /> :::Conversely, are those rights supposed to be permanent? In which case, there needs to be a discussion on the wiki (e.g., here on the Admin Noticeboard, or else on the Blockers talk page) about those permanent rights, and in particular the two admins approving the decision need to post their approval. Also, based on RobinHood70's precedent, any permanent blockers should be listed at [[UESPWiki:Blockers#Current Blockers|Current Blockers]].<br /> <br /> :::Basically, I think for this policy to work, there needs to be some type of official wiki record of all Blocker-related decisions, so that the other admins know what is going on. The whole purpose of temporary Blocker rights is that they are assigned when no other admins are active -- so by definition the only way for other admins to learn the details of the decision is if something is posted on the wiki. Or else we at least need some discussion of what should be assumed in the absence of any extra information. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I asked for temporary blocker rights because he wasn't going to be around and we were experiencing heavy wandalism. If you think it would benefit the wiki to remove them and leave the site unprotected during the US nighttime, please feel free to remove them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Pages Needing Protection ==<br /> <br /> These three pages are in the [[:Category:Full Protection|Full Protection]] category but aren't protected at the moment. Please can an admin protect them when he or she has a spare moment?<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2010]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2010]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2010]]<br /> Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Oh, and as RobinHood pointed out in May, [[Template:Archive Header]] still needs semi-protection. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Protection set for said articles. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 09:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Thanks, Timenn! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:12, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: And from me as well! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Archiving, Revisisted ==<br /> <br /> Subsequent to [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14#Archives|this discussion]], which I interpreted as a small consensus, I started using a chronological archiving process for the Administrator Noticeboard archives. [[User:rpeh|rpeh]] has now decided to switch back to the old method, for the reasons he outlined in [[User_talk:RobinHood70#Archives|this subsequent discussion]]. At the moment, I consider this to be against consensus, but in light of how small the original consensus was, I'm bringing it back to the community for discussion.<br /> <br /> So, can I get some opinions on what archiving process we want to use for AN, please? Based on the above discussion and [[UESPWiki:Community Portal#Archiving Process|this related one]], I believe we should be archiving AN in large archives based on dates (probably either a full year or half a year per archive) with important discussions moved to their own page and then transcluded back. Any other opinions? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The system was working fine until you started to try to change it. Why change a working system? The only argument I've seen for large archives is that if we stick to smaller ones, we'll end up with too many. 19 CP archives and 15 AN archives in 5 1/2 years argues against this, unless we keep having irrelevant discussions about archiving. Long pages take longer to generate and load, and take more CPU power to process too. They're less useful because the date range will be much less specific.<br /> <br /> : As far as I'm concerned, I'm not &quot;switching back&quot; to anything and I really can't believe somebody who's edited the wiki as much as you is really claiming you had a consensus for your suggestion. If we said that everything that came up on CP and AN and didn't get a response is approved ''nemine contradicente'', we'd have some seriously weird policies and pages. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Skipping the denigration of my personal opinions, which isn't really helpful to the discussion, I already consider 19 and 15 archives to be exceedingly large. Since a lot of that is recent, as the site gained popularity, I expect that to increase even further once TESV comes out. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::(warning, this became longwinded) - What is the purpose of maintaining the archives? If its purely to get the information off the page, then it dosen't matter how you do it, and one bog archive would be fine. If your actively expecting people to reference them, then you probably should theme archives by topic rather than by date (Which I notice already is how Administrative Requests and Vandalism are dealt with). My gut feeling is no-one aside from me and rpeh ever feels the need to read the things, and for me personally a page per year would be fine. Obviously rpeh prefers things more split up than that. I suppose in a nutshell, we need to answer why you feel 19/15 archives is to many? How do you feel its detrimental or why do you feel a smaller number would be beneficial? [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 02:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::If you think that's long-winded, you clearly haven't been reading my posts or Nephele's! :) There are probably a few different answers to your first question, but to me, the primary point of an archive is to have a searchable record of previous discussions (usually used in discussions just like this one). After that, you've made me realize that there are really several questions here, rather than just one, and I think that's adding to the overall confusion. So re-thinking/re-stating, here are the questions I see and my thoughts on them:<br /> <br /> ::::# What size of archive is appropriate?<br /> ::::#: Contrary to the impression I seem to have given rpeh, I'm not really a fan of huge archives. Large archives ''are'' usually faster for the computer to search than the equivalent number of small ones, but that depends on the system, and in this case, the time difference for something like this is probably negligible in any event. (Nephele has a much better understanding of that than I do, I think.) Time to transfer the page to the viewer is more of an issue, and rpeh is correct that smaller is better in that regard, though on the flip side, the pages are not highly accessed, so I tend to feel that...errr...&quot;size doesn't matter&quot; (much). I tend to prefer larger numbers of topics than we've had historically (prior to Archive 13) for the simple reason that it allows you to search/read through more than just a handful of topics at a time. This is useful in a number of situations like searching for something that isn't categorized into an existing topic, searching for a post by a specific author, searching for a specific word you remember being used in a discussion, or whatever other unforeseen need-of-the-moment you may have.<br /> ::::# What archive organization is appropriate?<br /> ::::#: I think it makes a lot of sense to have some coherence to the system where, for example, each archive spans x number of months and is set on a year-boundary (i.e., January automatically starts a new archive), rather than some random amount based entirely on when someone felt like archiving the page. This was the main thrust of my previous discussion. Given the size of the more recent archives, I was figuring that a break-point of every 6 months would make sense, but if the general preference is for smaller pages, then every 3 or 4 would also be logical. It would also allows us to simplify the archive table to something like &quot;2010: 1 2 3 4&quot; rather than listing each archive individually. If we're going to move to a by-topic organization, then that's fine, but I think we should move ''entirely'' to such a system (though that would be a whole other organizational discussion). I personally find this mish-mash of chronological but separating out ''only some'' discussions by topic to be very chaotic. But maybe that's just me.<br /> ::::# Should archives be categorized?<br /> ::::#: It's not the way I ''tend'' to search, but it's commonly done with archives of most kinds and I can certainly see the benefit of it. Assuming we keep categorizing discussions, I would suggest that we start categorizing ''as'' a discussion takes place rather than leaving it to the archiver to figure it out. It would make it easier to find for all involved if they knew what it would be categorized under when the discussion took place and it's less likely that categories will get left out. If we don't want to categorize the whole page, then we could put them in an HTML comment or template designed to only categorize when in an archive page. (Though again, this may be better off as its own discussion.)<br /> ::::&lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Some Admin Eyes Please? ==<br /> <br /> http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion_talk:The_Necromancer%27s_Amulet#Amulet_Leveling<br /> <br /> Hope this is the appropriate place to draw attention to something like this, but could someone take a peek over here and perhaps throw some water on the fire? The random appearance of an unknown IP user is heating things up a bit. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 08:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It's time for the discussion to stop. I stopped bothering yesterday evening because it was obvious nobody was going to change anybody else's mind. The same is still true. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: No offense, but you're at least part of why I brought this issue to the Administration. I'd like an administrator to comment on it. The random IP guy has apparently decided to descend into personal attacks at this point. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 08:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Youre the one who decided to turn this into a fight. If you had accepted the CONSENSUS that you are WRONG, this debate would have been over long ago. [[Special:Contributions/94.228.219.141|94.228.219.141]] 08:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Seriously, the pair of you - stop this pointless bickering. If this continues, you'll both be in line for a warning. I'm not going to give the warning myself because I ''was'' involved in the argument even though I stopped, but somebody will. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I don't think it's at all appropriate to once again receive a threat from you on this issue when all I did on this page is try to bring it to an &lt;i&gt;administrator's&lt;/i&gt; attention. I can't control what the other guy decides to do. I tried to make a contribution, and two people jumped down my throat about it, one of whom has resorted to blatant insults. This isn't the kind of thing that encourages people to want to contribute. It has exactly the opposite effect. If I'm to receive a warning for trying to argue a case, so be it, but that sends a very bad signal to others who might have observed the exchange. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 10:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I have never threatened you and I am not doing so now since I clearly said I would ''not'' be handing out warnings. I suggest you read the site's [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] and consider whether your contributions are currently constructive or disruptive. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Well since I've made plenty of other contributions and I haven't attempted to engage in a reversion war over the incident that caused this mess, I'd be inclined to say I'm not causing a disruption. I'd be more inclined to say your veiled threats are what's causing the disruption, and this other person's rather over the top hostility is causing disruption. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 11:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Can somebody block this Arthmoor guy? I think everybody is getting bored with his continual harping on the same issue when he obviously knows nothing wiki policy. The way he keeps distorting what other people say should be considered a personal attack. [[Special:Contributions/94.228.219.141|94.228.219.141]] 10:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :ok i read the whole thing and what i have to say is...arithamor(forgot your name) you have to be open to new ideas, even if your sure something is right, it could still be wrong, and unknown don't be so rude,you're never going to get to someone with a idea if your always shouting/being rude. i don't think either of you require a warning but you should both change your attitude,''very much''--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 11:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Being open to new ideas is fine. But there is a big difference between that and being bullied into accepting that you're &quot;wrong&quot; when you don't believe you are. Since someone else has already commented in the discussion suggesting precisely what I already tried to do, is it safe to assume that edit could be done? I think we can all agree it's worthy of notice even if nobody can agree it's actually a bug. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 11:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::It may also be worth noting that wikipedia has the ip address 94.228.219.141 permablocked as its a proxy address registered to iloveprivacy.eu [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:94.228.219.141]] [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 22:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Which is why Robin Hood tagged the IP address as one that [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:94.228.219.141&amp;oldid=594536 needs to be blocked], and why I then permanently [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A94.228.219.141&amp;diff=594612&amp;oldid=594536 blocked it] -- I explicitly stated in the [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block block reason] that wikipedia confirmed the IP was an open proxy, because I had already looked at the wikipedia user talk page. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Ah excellent. I should have realised it had already been dealt with! [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 23:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Block Notification ==<br /> <br /> We had suggested the idea that all blocks done by Blockers would be posted somewhere specific. Since nothing formal has been set up as yet, I'm posting here for now.<br /> <br /> I've just blocked [[User:82.208.46.123]] for 3 hours for intimidating behaviour on [[Oblivion talk:The Necromancer's Amulet]] and for being an open proxy. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:38, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :The block is not immediately obvious when looking at the user's talk page on Wikipedia, but it can be seen here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:GlobalBlockList/82.208.46.123]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks, Robin Hood. That's the info I was looking for -- I'd checked the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&amp;type=block&amp;page=User%3A82.208.46.123 standard block log], but forgot about wikimedia's global blocks. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: And another one. [[User:208.53.142.39]] is also blocked for 3 hours per [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:BlockList&amp;ip=208.53.142.39 Wikipedia]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Update: It seems the user is IP-hopping. It may be beneficial to semi-protect the page rather than trying to keep up with blocks. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I've created [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Block Notifications|this subpage]] to keep track of blocks not made by admins. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 11:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: That works for me. Can I suggest that an admin permanently semi-protect it to minimize the chance of vandalism to that page? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 16:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I blanked the list once [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] had made the blocks permanent. Do we want to do it like that or should it always be an admin who clears the list? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I'm fine either way, though if we're going to leave it in place, I'd suggest we add new entries at the top rather than at the bottom, just for easier administration (no pun intended). &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: While we're on the topic (in a very broad sense, at least), did we want permanent Blocker requests to be archived like Admin and Patroller discussions are? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: I don't think that's necessary, but it wouldn't bother me if people wanted a permanent record. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == New Set of Blocks ==<br /> <br /> Just a quick note to whichever Admin looks at {{Pl|UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Block_Notifications|the new blocks|diff=595375&amp;oldid=595089}}: the list is dynamic for all TOR exit nodes at the time, so some or all of these nodes may have disappeared from the list by the time you check them.<br /> <br /> Also, I was initially just blocking for the fact that they were harassing/vandalizing, so I didn't put Proxy warning messages on the affected pages, since I hadn't confirmed that they were TOR at that point. Given that they're all currently blocked for vandalism, it seems a little redundant to put additional messages on for the fact that they're also TOR addresses. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 03:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Same thing goes for today's — all TOR exit nodes have been verified against [https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=67.205.76.81 the TOR servers] themselves. If a Wikipedia/Google link is desired, though, let me know and I'll provide those with my Block Notifications. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Removal of Blocked Notice for RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> In regards to rpeh's removal of [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:RoBoT&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=595724 this block notice], I've reverted it because I believe that it should have Admin approval first.<br /> <br /> Please don't take this the wrong way, it's just that I just don't want to set the precedent that any user, no matter who, feels that they can remove a warning from a page under their control without prior permission from the Administrators. Given that rpeh has been allowed to archive his own personal warnings, I see no reason that he shouldn't be allowed to archive RoBoT's as well, though I would vote against outright deletion, on the basis that, so far as I know, he wasn't allowed to delete his own warning, either. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Once again you're interfering in things that don't concern you. I was given permission to remove my own warnings, from Timenn, who discussed it with Ratwar. I was allowed to remove the warning as long as I archived it into its own page and gave that page a link, which I have done. RoBoT never broke any policy and was only blocked out of vindictiveness, so should never have got a block in the first place. Since the block was aimed at '''me''', it is stupid to keep an invalid notice on RoBoT's page. Now stop sticking your nose into other people's business. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::{{ec}} Furthermore, it seems that rpeh felt the need to re-revert, against warning message removal policy. I will not start an edit war, however I feel that the warning should be re-instated until such time as Admins have specifically allowed him to remove it from RoBoT's page, as he has already been given permission to do with his own. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: The block was aimed at '''me'''. '''I''' have been given permission as already discussed. RoBoT has nothing to do with it. This discussion is a pointless waste of time. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As I said on my talk page, point me to the discussion that allows you to outright delete a block notice on RoBoT's talk page, as opposed to archiving notices on your own, and I'll apologize for the misunderstanding. It's just that it sets an extremely bad precedent for a user to outright delete a block notice just because he feels that it violated policy. Honestly, if you'd simply archived the warning and your reason had been that you were archiving it like all the others, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, you deleted it, citing that you believed it was against policy. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: The user being blocked was '''me''', not RoBoT, which was only included because the admin concerned was feeling particularly vindictive. I've archived the warnings given to me, but it's stupid to keep a notice on RoBoT's page as a sign of contrition when it's a series of ones and zeroes that can't show any such emotion. Honestly, if you'd simply stayed away from a situation that was over months ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, you jumped into a situation that never involved you in reply to a month old comment. Can I get back to doing important work now, please? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}This is absolutely ridiculous. rpeh, I understand your reasoning, but did you honestly think that this was the best way to go about it? If you felt the pressing need to remove the block notice, sure remove it - with your reasoning. RH's actions and comments, however, were not out of line. I don't understand how you can think anything he did was less than appropriate. He's entirely correct in saying that it sets a bad precedent. Just a little civil back-and-forth conversation on the matter is all that's needed. If your response to RH's actions had been to re-state your reasoning and request support from admins, you most likely would have gotten it and been able to remove the notice without any of this BS. It's not that difficult, and a little forethought would've resulted in the conclusion that that would be the most amicable solution. What ''was'' out of line were your dismissive comments (&quot;go away&quot;, &quot;Once again you're interfering in things that don't concern you.&quot;, &quot;Now stop sticking your nose into other people's business.&quot;, &quot;This discussion is a pointless waste of time.&quot;, &quot;you jumped into a situation that never involved you&quot;, &quot;Can I get back to doing important work now, please?&quot;, &quot;MYOB&quot;). I'm rather disappointed in the way this was handled.<br /> <br /> I, in fact, agree that the block shouldn't have been extended to the bot in the first place without a reason (such as the blocked user still using the bot's account), and that there's no reason to keep or even archive the block notice since the bot didn't deserve any administrative action in the first place. This type of behavior, however, is not acceptable from any user, no matter the provocation. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : ''If you felt the pressing need to remove the block notice, sure remove it - with your reasoning'' - [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoBoT&amp;diff=595724&amp;oldid=595640 I did], but RH reinstated it. Yet again I had to spend my time arguing about things rather than working on the site, and I'm sick and tired of it. RH was not involved in any of the discussions about warning archival and has no authority over RoBoT's talk page, yet he feels it necessary to reply to a two-month-old question and change an official notice. Why? Yes, my replies were curt, but I am fed up with having to deal with this kind of nonsense. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Yep, you did. And RH reverted it. Which he had every right to do. The fact that he was not involved in any of the discussions regarding warning archival doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to become involved in this discussion. Your reasoning baffles me. Additionally, this is not &quot;nonsense&quot;, it's community discussion, the backbone of a wiki. It's how things work. You are perfectly aware of the expectation to maintain (and perfectly capable of maintaining, from my memory) a civil tone even when you disagree. I don't understand why you thought you shouldn't do so in this situation. If someone disagrees with your actions, the acceptable thing for them to do is to revert your actions. Then, acceptable actions on your part would be to have a ''civil'' discussion. You know this, and (as I said) are perfectly capable of it. Why wouldn't you do so? --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Honestly rpeh, if you (or anyone else) is at the point where they feel that they ''have'' to contribute to a voluntary project, then they might want to think about taking a break before they burn out. The site should be about what people want to contribute, and hopefully they should be having fun while they are at it. The wiki might not get worked on as fast, but in the long term it is not worth much aggro. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 16:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: The trouble is, Jadrax, that when I don't contribute, nobody else picks up the slack. Every time I take a break, the patrol queue grows out of control, with inaccurate information being added and dozens of questions remaining unanswered. I ''do'' have fun on this wiki, but not when people start wasting my time for no good reason. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: {{ec}} That's not entirely true. When I was working on templates and noticed that the patrol queue had gotten behind a couple of weeks ago, I stopped my template work and worked on patrolling instead. I noticed several other Patrollers working on the backlog as well during that time. In the space of the next couple of days, we were almost caught up, then you came back from your break and finished it. And honestly, it's not the end of the world if the patrol queue falls behind - people will eventually notice the inconsistencies and fix them.<br /> <br /> :::::: All that is irrelevant to the main point of this discussion, though. My actions were appropriate, based on our notice removal policy, and I would have taken the same actions with ''anybody'' from an Admin down to the newest user had they done the same thing. I understand why you might have thought it reasonable to remove it, but it really looked inappropriate for an involved user to just remove a warning with no clear record of why you should be allowed to do so, particularly this long after archiving your own warnings, and without even any mention of the permission to archive that Timenn gave you. It was a simple matter of dotting your i's and crossing your t's to get an Admin to simply say &quot;yeah, go ahead and remove it&quot;, and I didn't see it as anything but. In fact, I got involved in that two-month-old discussion when I was browsing RoBoT and NepheleBot's pages during my recent work on HotnBOThered, and noticed that to anybody reading it, it looked like the bot was still blocked. I thought I was doing a service when I made it clear that the block no longer applied. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Sorry but it ''is'' true. Every time I'm away for any length of time, the patrol queue grows. That's why I re-applied to be a patroller. I don't dispute that other people do patrolling too, but I'm afraid it has been indisputable that they don't do as much as I do. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: I said not &quot;entirely&quot; true. Nobody's denying that you do the bulk of the patrolling, but that becomes self-perpetuating. The other Patrollers get used to you doing it, and therefore don't check as often, or sit down to do a bunch only to find that you've already done it. I think you're probably creating your own problem to some degree. Try taking a break for a few days or a week at some point, but ''tell people'' that you're doing so. I know I would've been a ''lot'' busier with the patrolling when you took your recent break had I known beforehand that you were going to do so. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::In my opinion, deletion of the block notice is inappropriate. Contrary to Mikeyboy52's [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoBoT&amp;diff=576754&amp;oldid=497899 assertion], RoBoT [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoBoT&amp;diff=576754&amp;oldid=497899 was blocked]; the block notice is the official message recording that the block happened. In general, I think there are situations where outright removal of warning/block notices would be acceptable, but I think that only applies when the initial warning/block was a mistake: for example, if IP addresses get mixed up, or if a new editor gives an official warning for a good-faith edit. In RoBoT's case, the block was not a mistake: Ratwar intentionally blocked all accounts used by rpeh. Especially given that the situation was initiated by inappropriate use of multiple wiki accounts, I think Ratwar's actions were reasonable.<br /> <br /> :::::Furthermore, RoBoT ''is'' rpeh. Rpeh has the password to RoBoT's account and can personally login as RoBoT any time he chooses; he controls every action taken by RoBoT. The reason RoBoT exists is effectively to give rpeh privileges he does not usually have, namely to have the bot's edits hidden by default on the Recent Changes page. Any restrictions that apply to rpeh should apply -- perhaps even more strongly -- to alternate accounts with elevated privileges. From a practical point of view, in light of past events, I'm less likely to give RoBoT the benefit of the doubt should something questionable occur -- which is, from my point of view, exactly what the record of old block/warning notices is supposed to represent.<br /> <br /> :::::In any case, it should definitely not be up to the user who was blocked/warned to make a unilateral decision about what can or cannot be done with any block/warning notices. That clearly goes against existing policy, and any such precedent would make it impossible to enforce future warning and block notices. In fact, even the precedent to allow such notices to be archived is ambiguous, given that there is no official wiki discussion about the previous decision. In the absence of anything official on the wiki, we have no basis for assuming that any other messages can be archived.<br /> <br /> :::::Therefore, I think we first need to get confirmation from Timenn of whatever decisions were made in IRC regarding the block notices. (Ideally, it would be good to also get Ratwar's confirmation of his IRC statements, but I realize that's unlikely to happen). As everyone knows, [[UESPWiki:IRC#IRC_and_UESP|policy]] states that IRC cannot be used for formal decisions, and a decision about what is allowed regarding official user notices should be a formal wiki decision -- especially if that decision is then going to be used to set the precedent for other user notices.<br /> <br /> :::::Only once we know details of the precedent can we meaningfully discuss whether to extend the precedent. Or else archiving (or even deleting) RoBoT's block message can be discussed as an entirely separate issue, without invoking any precedent -- in which case I think any discussion needs to start with some explanation of why such an action is necessary or appropriate. So far, I don't think any justification has been given for why existing policy should be ignored in this case. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::RoBoT is '''not''' Rpeh or I wouldn't bother having two accounts. Policy states that users are blocked for actions they take: it does not state that blocks are made for actions that ''might'' be performed. RoBoT violated no policy (neither did I, but that's another matter altogether), and was blocked contrary to policy because the admin concerned had a chip on his shoulder (see his letter posted on Wikipedia for proof of that statement). I never tried to evade my block either as Rpeh or RoBoT. So why should RoBoT have to put up with what is an illegal block notice on its talk page? I fail to see the utility of continuing this discussion. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Whatever people believe about the reality of the situation, the evidence available made it appear that you were abusing multiple accounts. In those circumstances, I think it was entirely appropriate for Ratwar to block all accounts that he knew were tied to you. The fact that there were personal issues between you is unfortunate, but his actions were nevertheless based on the available evidence and not out of line with what I think any other administrator would have done.<br /> <br /> :::::::Now, we could rehash the whole debate about the evidence, motives, blah blah blah, but I really don't see the point. That's long over and done with, and best left that way. The question at hand is whether or not removal of the notice was appropriate, and given that you were never given permission to completely remove official notices by any administrator, it clearly wasn't. That moves us into... &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::I will have to check my IRC logs later on to check what Ratwar and I literally said, but the important thing is that he agreed with the current solution of how it is on rpeh´s talk page now (IIRC, RoBoT wasn't mentioned or referred to). His main intent was that be warning and block notice both be easily accessible from the talk page. The current link as compromise was announced on the Admin Noticeboard, so others users were free to comment on it. Policy decisions need to be made on the wiki, but users are free to discuss their differences off-wiki if they wish it, as long as they realise it will only mean reaching an (unofficial) agreement among themselves. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 11:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::Thanks, Timenn, in particular for mentioning the overlooked [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14#Warnings Policy|Warnings Policy]] discussion. And to follow up on one point of contention in that discussion: just because section protection was added to the policy later than the other text doesn't mean it somehow &quot;takes precedence&quot;. In my opinion, the current policy pages, in their entirety, are all equally valid. The bottom line being that the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Blocked Accounts|Blocking Policy]] explicitly states &quot;''Deletion of official messages is only acceptable after receiving permission from the administrators. Such permission is only granted at the discretion of the administrators, in cases where the editor has acknowledged and made efforts to correct the original problem(s).''&quot; (And the [[UESPWiki_talk:Blocking_Policy#Deleting_Warnings|talk page]] has the background behind that policy).<br /> :::::::::Furthermore, in response to rpeh, RoBoT and rpeh are two separate accounts because RoBoT has special privileges (as I already mentioned). Nevertheless, a single person is responsible for both accounts. As stated in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bot_policy Wikipedia's Bot policy]: &quot;''Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator for the purposes of the user account policy.''&quot; Furthermore, &quot;''bot operators should be editors in good standing''&quot; -- and I'd say if the bot operator is blocked, that automatically means the bot operator is not in good standing. In other words, bot accounts should automatically be blocked whenever the editor's account is blocked (and probably for even longer than the editor's account, because an editor doesn't return to &quot;good standing&quot; the minute a block expires). So upon further examination, the only problem I see with RoBoT's block is that it was insufficient: RoBoT should have been blocked four times, and for more than just one week.<br /> :::::::::All of which leads me to conclude that the block message belongs on RoBoT's talk page. Given rpeh's [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion%3AThe_Necromancer%27s_Amulet&amp;diff=594469&amp;oldid=594460 own words], I'm reinstating it until there's some conclusion about archiving official messages. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::: Retrospectively applying sanctions is quite clearly against natural justice so to use an argument that RoBoT should have been blocked more and then base decisions on that argument is not valid. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} She didn't. She said that the original block and message were made in accordance with the policy of the time, then gave reasoning why she thought that policy ''could'' have been interpreted even more harshly than it was.<br /> <br /> Also, just as a note for those not following the page, the warning message has now been archived, albeit with some {{Pl|User_talk:RoBoT|rather petulant commentary|diff=596651&amp;oldid=596643}}...but that's rpeh's decision. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 16:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Man! I can't believe I just spent several hours researching and writing down details for the new [[Shivering:Relmyna Verenim|Relmyna Verenim]] article when I could have participated in this constructive discussion. Please notify me next time something this exiting is going on. Kidding aside, this discussion clogs up the Recent Changes, makes us all look like idiots and should end right now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Proposal for Allowing Official Notice Archiving ===<br /> Traditionally, our policy has been to leave warning and block notices on a user's page indefinitely. For users who continue to edit after their warning or block, however, this can eventually move away from being an appropriate warning and turn into a badge of shame, which is not the point of an official warning. I would like to propose that legitimate official notices be allowed to be ''archived'' (never removed) to a &lt;tt&gt;&lt;User talk page&gt;/Warnings&lt;/tt&gt; page after 6 months, provided that there is consensus among the Administrators to allow the move. A link to the Warnings page must also be provided on the talk page in an easy-to-see location, as would normally be done with any other archive. This will allow Administrators to easily view recent history, and know where to look for older history. Bad behaviour or additional warnings during that 6 months would presumably negate any Admin consensus, but that could be stipulated specifically, if need be.<br /> <br /> As Nephele suggested, I agree that complete removal of an official notice can be allowed in cases where it was clearly frivolous or incorrect, with any dispute about the legitimacy being, again, based on Admin consensus. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :This proposal works for me.<br /> :The only minor question would be whether there needs to be some clause comparable to that found in current policy, namely &quot;in cases where the editor has acknowledged and made efforts to correct the original problem(s).&quot; Which, I suppose, comes down to having some type of reassurance that any warning messages are no longer needed as active, regular reminders against inappropriate behaviour. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Were there any further comments or concerns with this proposed policy, or should I go ahead and put it in place, with Nephele's amendments? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == TOR Blocking ==<br /> <br /> Subsequent to several discussions on blocking TOR exit nodes, I've recently found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TorBlock TorBlock]. It's a relatively simple extension that allows blocking of TOR users with a variety of options. I think it's something we might want to take a look at. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I've gone ahead and installed it, instead of coming up with some way on my own to do the same thing. Configuration settings are the default settings (other than setting the wgTorIPs to a correct set of values). Which means without logging in, people accessing the site via Tor should only be able to read articles; logged-in editors using Tor have standard access. I haven't actually tested it, though (short of confirming that the extension shows up on the Version page). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I'll download Tor and do some basic testing. Another user who's more familiar with it has also offered, but I'll let that person speak for themselves. Hopefully this will mean an end to, or at least a substantial reduction in, the number of Tor users we have to deal with. Now we just need to worry about all the other proxy servers out there. :-/ &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I happen to be that user. I offered to stress-test the system and I will plan on editing my own talk page under as many TOR nodes as I can with your permissions, of course.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 22:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::As you can see on [[User_talk:RobinHood70#TOR Testing|my talk page]], I was able to get through on a TOR address with a little patience. Perhaps the extension just hasn't downloaded a list of IPs yet...? One way or the other, the IP I was editing from is there, so it should be easy enough to figure out why it wasn't detected. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I went looking the other day for stuff on Tor and found this: http://www.irongeek.com/i.php?page=security/detect-tor-exit-node-in-php it's a pretty small chunk of code, and from what I could tell, it worked to detect exit nodes. Since it uses a DNSBL provided by the people who make Tor, it should be fairly reliable. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 23:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I've tried about a dozen exit nodes now, and all but two were manually blocked. The second time that I wasn't manually blocked, TorBlock kicked in and I was auto-blocked. So either something has changed since my last message, or it's just a matter of waiting until TorBlock has time to build up its database of Tor addresses. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Update: Either I have strange luck or something just changed, as it seems that all the addresses I try, including the one that got through earlier, are auto-blocked now instead of manually blocked or getting through. This would suggest that my theory was right, earlier, and that the list just hadn't been downloaded yet, as I don't see anything from Nephele about any changes since installing it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} I've downgraded the version of the extension for compatibility with the site's current Mediawiki code (MW14.0), so we're now running the version of TorBlock that was in place at the time MW14.0 was released. The up-to-date version that I first installed was using some hooks that our Mediawiki doesn't recognize -- meaning that some parts of the TorBlock code were never being accessed. That said, though, the most important hooks (such as &quot;GetBlockedStatus&quot;) are ones that our Mediawiki uses. Also, I only did the downgrade well after RobinHood70's last report that he was successfully getting autoblocked.<br /> <br /> So, basically, all the tests should really be redone given that the code has been replaced ;)<br /> <br /> Also, I ran loadExitNodes as soon as I installed the extension (before even posting any mention of it on the site), so it should have had started off with a list of tor nodes. However, after RobinHood70's initial comment about problems, I cobbled together some tests to check the tor node list -- which confirmed that it has a list of 1301 exit nodes (including the one that RH got through on), and that the list is being stored in and retrieved from memcached. So I'm not really sure why things would have been inconsistent. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Okay, I'll re-test. At first blush, it appeared that I might still be able to create an account, but that's not 100% certain by any means. The one time I tried, I got a manual block notice rather than an auto-block notice. Just tweaking a template a bit, then I'll get on it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::On re-testing, everything still works as expected, and I was unable to get through anonymously on any node that I tried. It looks like account creation first checks for a manual block, ''then'' checks TorBlock, but either way, it's still blocked. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Nephele, et al: If there's any further testing that you'd like to do with someone using TOR, either on-site or off, let me know. If not, I'll uninstall it in the next few days. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Just to be certain, do the blocks only affect anonymous users? Can registered users still use TOR? I have to use TOR in order to access some blocked sites and to ensure my privacy whenever I travel to a foreign country (eg. China, Saudi Arabia). I believe that we should still keep TOR's original intentions in mind; it wasn't made for abuse. Also, TOR is slow anyway. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 17:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Yes, registered users can still use TOR. New users would have to create an account without the benefit of TOR, though if that itself were an issue, they could readily ask someone (Daveh by e-mail, a friend, or in our forums) to create an account for them. We should probably update [[UESPWiki:Contact]] to reflect that. I'll wait a bit, in case people have other suggestions that should be taken into account. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Sounds good. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 19:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Edit to Protected Page requested ==<br /> <br /> Please can an admin fix [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior#Knight_of_the_White_Stallion|this page]] so it doesn't link to the Knights of the White Stallion disambig page? It should link to the quest page instead. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 11:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == rpeh...again ==<br /> <br /> Would an Administrator please have a look at the series of edits to rpeh's talk page from [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&amp;diff=598616&amp;oldid=598471 here] forward, please? I acknowledge rpeh's right to edit his own talk page, but he's not respecting my right to edit and/or remove my own post. I would appreciate it if someone could have a talk with him about it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===RobinHood70... AGAIN===<br /> : You don't have any such right. I am not misrepresenting you because I haven't edited anything you said or changed the order of your posts so nothing on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines this page] applies. So nice to have another productive discussion. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::You have implied that I'm wrong and are removing any reply I make to the contrary. How is that any kind of good faith or good wiki editing practice? As for the page you just linked to, &quot;Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.&quot; Removing my comment inherently changes the meaning, since it makes it appear that I don't disagree with your statement. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::It doesn't change the meaning at all. You said that rounding was why my program was producing values different by 13 from the existing ones. My response was that rounding has nothing to do with it. It doesn't. That means that, although I didn't say it on my talk page, you were wrong. I have no idea why you want to spread the fact that you were wrong over the admin noticeboard, but that's up to you. Now, I'm having nothing more to do with yet another thread designed to do nothing but distract people from useful editing. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No, if you look at the very first sentence in the post that you've forced me to leave on your page, I said that not adding 5 for the class attributes was the problem, and that rounding was what made the difference between the 12.5 that I stated and the 13 that S'drassa was seeing. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Apart from the fact that this feels as an unnecessary escalation of matters, I think rpeh is right in this case. He's free to remove posts from his talk page, and the full responsibility for doing so is his. <br /> <br /> :::::You claim that you simply intended to remove your own post, but in fact you replaced it with another post (the &quot;comment remove by author&quot; was no neutral message), changing the initial discussion. The context of the earlier posts doesn't change with the addition of newer posts, it's just the nature of the discussion that evolves. Posts are traditionally accepted as comments made at a ''specific time and conditions'' not permanent statements you can never change your mind about or elaborate on. <br /> <br /> :::::That being said, I would really like to see from both you more attempts to not have these things escalate. Not every minor detail needs to be defended if it only means the rest of community must suffer another conflict. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 11:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Okay, that's a fair enough assessment. I would, however, like to remove my original post since it's clearly being misunderstood, and any attempt to &quot;elaborate on&quot; it is being reverted. That seems contrary to the very point you made. If I'm not allowed to elaborate and clarify, then I should be allowed to remove it, and my entire contributions to that discussion can be as though they never happened.<br /> <br /> ::::::As for rpeh and I, I would not take it amiss if an interaction ban were enacted. I don't want our interactions to become as disruptive as his and Elliot's were, but I don't see our opinions of each other changing any time soon. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You have twice posted on my talk pages, then twice brought the same matter up on here, and now you want to ban ''me'' from interacting with ''you''????? If you're getting fed up with arguing with me, stay off my talk pages. I certainly have no interest in talking to you. Oh, and it should be &quot;rpeh and '''me'''&quot;. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, enough. Rpeh, could you please remove RobinHood70s messages from your talk page so we can get back to what we do best? This discussion serves no purpose whatsoever and while it is a bit saddening that two of the very best editors on the wiki can't get along at the moment, I hope you guys can solve it somehow - some time. I see no reason for anybody to participate further in this discussion unless they have something meaningful to say - and I believe Timenn was the last person to do that. My suggestion to you guys are as follows; stay off each others talk pages and do not participate in discussions if you can't get a grip. Try turning off your browsers instead of writing uncomfortable messages on the AN - take a deep breath, possibly a two-minute break - and look at a picture of a Khajiit or Argonian. That is what we are working with here - it is not the end of the world, it is a video game series. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Sorry, but if somebody is going to post patronising, incorrect messages on my talk page, I'm afraid they have to live with the consequences. And I, at least, have continued to edit productively despite repeated irrelevant distractions. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Moved from User_talk:Username ==<br /> <br /> seventhdigidestiny@yahoo.com I am trying to fix a spelling error of Assurabitashpi for THE ELDER SCROLLS III MORROWIND. I have the game of the year platinum eddition for Xbox. anyways the proper spelling is Ashurabitashpi but I can not change some of them. in addition to this someone keeps changing it back to Assurabitashpi but the changes I make are made I know because I check to make sure so I know that there is no problem on my end. someone from administration needs to change the parts that can not be eddited by non registered users for the Assurabitashpi to Ashurabitashpi maybe this will fix whoever is messing up my correction. I play the game all the time and I am in fact playing it right now and looking at the map on world view with the pointer on the AKA Assurnabitashpi and it is spelled Ashurnabitashpi in the game. And yes I am looking in the right place as is described by the location and everything else on the page is accurate so far when I compare it to the game I am playing so once again I am not wrong please fix it and in case you forgot the proper spelling is Ashurnabitashpi<br /> <br /> - <br /> There is a Assurnabitashpi, shrine South of Ashurnabitashpi if this is the place they are talking about then there needs to be two seperate page for both places<br /> <br /> :Now, I'm pretty sure the page is correct...I remember some kind of note on the page about a cell and door spelling discrepancy. Confirm/deny?--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 20:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::As the note on the page says, the exterior cell in which the shrine is contained is called &quot;Ashurnabitashpi&quot;. The two interior cells are called &quot;Assurnabitashpi&quot; and &quot;Assurnabitashpi, Shrine&quot;. Additionally, the double-s version appears in dialogue three times: ''&quot;Nuleno Tedas gave me directions to Urshilaku camp. The camp is due north from Maar Gan, but high ridges lie in the way. Follow Foyada Bani-Dad, a deep ravine just north of Maar Gan, northwest to the sea. A shipwreck at the seamouth of the ravine is a landmark. Swim east around the headland. Pass east through the ruins of '''Assurnabitashpi''' Shrine. Urshilaku Camp lies east of the ruins, inland in a low hollow.&quot;'',''&quot;Urshilaku camp is due north from Maar Gan, but high ridges lie in the way. From Maar Gan head east past the Silt Strider, then take a trail north to the Foyada Bani-Dad. Follow the Foyada northwest to the sea. A shipwreck at the seamouth of the ravine is a landmark. Swim east around the headland. Pass east through the ruins of '''Assurnabitashpi''' Shrine. Avoid Daedra here. They're powerful and aggressive. Urshilaku Camp lies east of the ruins, inland in a low hollow.&quot;'' and ''&quot;At the ruins of '''Assurnabitashpi''', they have an old shrine to Mehrunes Dagon. Stay far from that place -- it is cursed.&quot;'' Ashurnabitashpi does not appear at all. The paper map spells it with an h (in Daedric) but the clear weight is on the side of the double-s version. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Minor question ==<br /> <br /> [[Oblivion:Easter Eggs]] is currently semi-protected and in the [[:Category:Semi Protection]] category but there is no indication of who semi-protected it in the history, and on editing the page the notice &quot;Note: This page has been locked so that only registered users can edit it. No matching items in log.&quot; is displayed at the top.<br /> <br /> This doesn't seem to be the case with other pages (such as [[Oblivion:Oblivion]]) that have been locked for a long time, so I wonder how the relevant entry for this page has gone missing? It's almost as if the entry was deleted from the database, perhaps when somebody was deleting other items? In any case, could an admin re-protect so we at least have a name on it? Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Just as an aside, this looks to be an issue with the wiki software [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8731], where the protection level was moved when [[Oblivion:Easter eggs]] was moved to [[Oblivion:Easter Eggs]], but the record of who protected it ({{Pl|Special:Log|Nephele|type=protect&amp;user=&amp;page=Oblivion:Easter+eggs&amp;year=&amp;month=-1}}) wasn't. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Ah, thanks. Good find. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Block Needed. ==<br /> <br /> 82.21.230.96 needs to be blocked. Please see the history of [[Shivering:Ghosts_of_the_Hill_of_Suicides]] for why.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 18:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :At the moment I don't see any evidence that a block is needed. The IP has only made one edit since being warned -- which means it's very likely that the person didn't read the warning until after that edit was made. In the hour since then, nothing has been done, so I think the warning was sufficient. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protection requested ==<br /> <br /> Please could an admin fully-protect [[UESPWiki:Javascript/searchesInNewWindow.js|this page]] in line with previous policy on communal Javascript snippets? Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Excuse Me ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I'm new to this site, and I've gotta say, it's impressive-- I normally go to a Wiki that is exclusively for TES4, and it does a fine job, but this just... blows that wiki out of the water!<br /> <br /> Anyways, I dunno if this'll get read soon or not, but I need to ask: How ''exactly'' is someone supposed to roleplay within Oblivion's universe? I understand the desire to immerse yourself into the universe, but... how can somebody do it when there aren't any other PCs to RP with?! Don't you guys think that's a bit... I dunno, bland to be RPing in the game while all you have to work with are scripted NPCs? <br /> <br /> Or maybe it's different for you guys since you all can mod your games on the PC to give yourselves new experiences, while I'm using the Xbox 360 GOTY Edition of Oblivion, and I don't have access to Xbox Live (LOOONG story) so I can't get any of the plug-ins. Anyways, if you can explain this sort of thing to me, I'd appreciate it, because I've tried a few of the things you suggested (like being a Pirate), and well... it's simply not fun RPing when you're the only PC in the game, y'know?<br /> <br /> Thanks, <br /> <br /> Billy<br /> <br /> P.S. I actually found this site when I was looking for Oblivion RPs on the Internet-- I just assumed that the RP you guys meant at first (before I read about the stuff) was on an ''online forum''-- that's the kind of RP I'm used to-- hell, I've even done an Oblivion RP on one of the forums I normally visit. It died pretty quickly though, which is a shame.<br /> <br /> :Guess you were referring to the OblivioWiki. Glad to see that you found UESP. Sorry about the mess at the OblivioWiki, but I gradually developed a dislike for Wikia and its new format. You may roleplay in the game in whichever matter you deserve. It's an open-ended game (but Morrowind provides more freedom), so you can pretty much do whatever you wish. I suggest that you play some MMO's, since single-player games don't seem to satisfy you. I don't really roleplay in games, and ''The Elder Scrolls'' has more to do with exploring unique terrains and cultures than providing a means to roleplay. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 16:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&diff=602680 2010-09-14T16:46:32Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Excuse Me */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]]<br /> The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. __NEWSECTIONLINK__<br /> {{Archive Table|class=compress|title=Major Discussions<br /> |UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism|Mostly spam, actually.<br /> |!|Page Archives|<br /> |Archive 1||February 2005 – June 2006<br /> |Archive 2||June 2006 – August 2006<br /> |Archive 3||September 2006 – June 2007<br /> |Archive 4||June 2007 – July 2007<br /> |Archive 5||August 2007 – October 2007<br /> |Archive 6||October 2007 – November 2007<br /> |Archive 7||December 2007 – January 2008<br /> |Archive 8||January 2008 – February 2008<br /> |Archive 9||February 2008 – August 2008<br /> |Archive 10||September 2008 – October 2008<br /> |Archive 11||November 2008 – December 2008<br /> |Archive 12||December 2008 – March 2009<br /> |Archive 13||April 2009 – December 2009<br /> |Archive 14||January 2010 – May 2010<br /> |Archive 15||June 2010<br /> |!|Past Administrative Requests|<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfA|Aristeo's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jun. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Nephele/RfA|Nephele's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 13, 2006''<br /> |User:Aristeo/RfB|Aristeo's Request for Bureaucrat|''Withdrawn by Aristeo Nov. 19, 2006''<br /> |User:Ratwar/RfA|Ratwar's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Jan. 31, 2007''<br /> |User:TheRealLurlock/RfA|TheRealLurlock's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Feb. 23, 2007''<br /> |User:Rpeh/RfA|Rpeh's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Oct. 1, 2007''<br /> |UESPWiki:Archive/AN Request for Server Access|Nephele's Request for Server Access|''Approved Jan. 4, 2008''<br /> |User:Eshe/RfA|Eshe's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Mar. 31, 2008''<br /> |User:GuildKnight/RfA|GuildKnight's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Nov. 11, 2008''<br /> |User:Timenn/RfA|Timenn's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved Aug. 7, 2009''<br /> |User:Krusty/RfA|Krusty's Request for Adminstrator|''Approved May 3, 2010''<br /> }}<br /> <br /> == Blockers ==<br /> <br /> In regards to [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#New_User_Group|this discussion]] and the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard#Updates to Archived Discussions|update to it]], I'm not sure if any agreement was ever established on what admission requirements would be for the new group. In the absence of a formal policy, I'm just going to ask for that right for myself and let others fend for themselves. :) That brings back up the question of how to do it, keeping in mind that whatever is done for me will probably set a precedent:<br /> <br /> #Do I just ask and if one (or maybe all) admins agree, I get the rights?<br /> #Do we want a formal Request for Block Permissions discussion, the same as we would for Patroller or Administrator?<br /> #Do we want to hammer out a formal requirements list?<br /> #Do we want to have a requirements list ''and'' a vote (like Patrollers are now).<br /> #Alternatively, if a requirements list is wanted, but we don't want to wait, we can put the cart before the horse and grant permissions by one of the first two methods, ''then'' put a requirements list in place at a later date.<br /> <br /> Also, semi off-topic, when someone has a chance, I think we can remove Krusty from the Blockers group, as he already has those rights as an Administrator anyway. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 03:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I've created a stub of a page at [[UESPWiki:Blockuser]] (with a redirect at [[UESPWiki:Blockers]]) and added pertinent info to [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy]], [[UESPWiki:Administrators]], and [[UESPWiki:User Group Rights]]. I've intentionally tried to avoid describing the process, since we haven't decided.<br /> :My opinions on the matter are that we don't need a formal requirements list or a vote. I ''do'' think, however, that it should be an agreement between at least two admins that an editor is suitable for blockuser rights. It's definitely something we should decide before assigning the rights, though. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with GK. I recall that the entire reason to get the role assignable by admins was to allow the rights to be given quickly and easily when required. If an admin knows that he or she will be away for some time and that no other admin is likely to be around, it should be allowable to simply give the right to some user who is on IRC or obviously active on wiki. The idea is to ensure that there's always somebody around who can block as required. When the admin returns - or another becomes active, the rights could be removed if there's no need for them any more, or they could be left in place - I don't think it matters too much.<br /> :: We definitely don't want a procedural rigmarole over this because it would eliminate the point of the group. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:54, 24 June 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: In light of the current bout of vandalism, with no admin currently available, I would like to formally request to be made part of this group on a long-term basis. Following GK's suggestion in the absence of any other formal procedure, can I get an admin to agree, and a seconder to implement, please? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:25, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Ditto. Luckily, it seems as if Nephele was by her computer when I sent out a &quot;please help!&quot; email, but a better suggestion would be to use the facility we now have. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:27, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I'm fine with giving Robin Hood blocker permissions. I'm not entirely sure what the proposed process is here, and I'm also not completely sure whether GK was specifically supporting Robin Hood or just generally supporting moving forward. So I haven't actually made any permission changes. However, any admin should be able to grant blocker permissions at this point, assuming someone else wants to second the proposal.<br /> <br /> :::::That said, though, I'm a bit concerned about unrealistic expectations here. Unless dozens of people are given blocker rights (which I'm not inclined to think is appropriate), I don't it's realistic to expect every vandal to be blocked within minutes. Even if an admin is active, the admin is likely to be busy with his/her own wiki project and might not check recent changes more than a couple times an hour. And to expect an admin to delegate someone blocker permissions every time he/she steps away from the computer for an hour seems pretty unrealistic -- especially given that breaks are as likely to be unplanned as planned. So if the issue here is that people think it's unacceptable for it to sometimes take an hour before a vandal is blocked, I don't that issue is about to be solved; I'm not even sure it can really be solved.<br /> <br /> :::::Also, FWIW, I just happened to check recent changes in the ten spare minutes I had between gardening and taking the apples I'd harvested to the homeless shelter. There's no way I could have or would have blocked the user any sooner or later than I did, because that was the only time I spent near my computer all afternoon. My timing was unrelated to Robin Hood's post or to any emails -- I still haven't even checked my email. I just don't want people to start thinking that they need to take unnecessary measures every time there's an admin action, because, at least in this case, those measures made no difference. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:50, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Evidently you haven't had time to read discussions referred to at the start of this discussion either. I'll [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#New_User_Group|relink]] the important one so you can refresh your memory.<br /> <br /> ::::::The fact that in this case merely 15 minutes went by before a user with block rights came to the keyboard is immaterial. There have been previous occasions on which it has been more. There have been occasions where, even if the suggested changes had been in operation, the delay would still have been a long time. None of this alters the fact that if RobinHood's request had been acted upon earlier, the site would have experienced less vandalism this evening.<br /> <br /> ::::::This discussion has already taken place and unless somebody has useful objections, there's no reason why the actions previously agreed upon by the community can't be enacted. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 02:14, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Rpeh, I'd appreciate it if you would stop making blatantly incorrect assumptions about what I have or have not read.<br /> :::::::As for the point at hand, I have already acted upon the community's agreed proposals -- namely I made it possible for admins to add/remove people from the blockers group (an action which in and of itself proves my familiarity with the original discussion). Beyond that, I only see agreement with GK's suggestion that two admins should agree that an editor is suitable for blocker rights. I don't see any other statements by admins (even GK) saying that they support Robin Hood being a blocker, making my statement the first of '''two''' required admin votes. I'm not going to unilaterally take an action when the community has said that two admins must agree. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Well, Nephele, I'd appreciate it if you could act as if you ''had'' read those discussions. Yes I'm glad you acted on my suggestion that the new group should be assignable by Admins. Thank you for that. After that, you appear to have ignored the main thrust of the debate, namely that admins should be able to assign the new group as and when it is required. That was the ''entire point'' of giving admins the ability to assign the new group. If you &quot;don't see any other statements by admins&quot;, please re-read the discussion to which I linked you, and take greater care over comprehension next time. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 05:07, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}{{ec}} My take on GK's response was a general support on moving forward, not any kind of endorsement of me. As for the unrealistic expectations, I think the goal here is just to have a higher likelihood of someone being around to stop it when vandalism occurs. It may not be flawless, but it'll certainly improve the vandalism situation. Not that the delay was inordinate by any means, but there were several Patrollers around today who could have stopped the vandalism even sooner had they had Blocker rights. Even if it were only the senior-most Patrollers, there were still two of us (that I noticed) who were active at the time. I agree that blocker permissions being given on-the-fly should not be the norm, but it's certainly good to have the ability should the admins need it. (Atreus comes to mind, for example, as someone who might not need/want long-term Blocker permissions, but whom we would all trust to have them for the short term, if needed.)<br /> <br /> In regards to the issue of whether to e-mail an admin or whatever, perhaps it would be a good idea for Admins and long-term Blockers to indicate on the Admin, Blockers, or their user page whether or not users ''should'' contact them by other means if vandalism is going on. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:12, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :There were several Patrollers active at the time. Me, S'drassa, RobinHood, and rpeh. I could see why the senior Patrollers would get the rights because there is always a Patroller on and they could handle the tools a little better than per se me. IRC and Email are always good ways to contact a User, but the preference should be listed as a notice. For example; I never check my Email but am ''always'' online in IRC.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 05:18, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe in the concept of &quot;senior patroller&quot;. I certainly don't consider myself &quot;senior&quot; to any other patroller and I very much doubt RH does either.... except in the purely literal sense of age, and I doubt either of us would rather talk about that!<br /> <br /> :: I still believe the role should be assigned when needed, which is why I asked that it be assignable by admins; something that Nephele, so graciously, granted. At the moment, there seems to be a lack of admins caused by unexpected factors such as pregnancy... although WHY GK couldn't have waited until a more convenient time, I don't know!<br /> <br /> :: The &quot;two admin&quot; suggestion was only a suggestion and never part of any policy. Right now, we probably need at least one other person with block permissions. I don't care who gets given these permissions, but I think we need more coverage.<br /> <br /> :: Since Nephele doesn't trust me (which is fine, because I don't trust her either), give the role to RH and somebody else from the Euro area. All I want is a decent chance of protecting the site around the clock. I don't know why some people think anything else. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 05:40, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: &quot;Senior&quot; was my doing, and I only meant it in the sense of those who have the most experience with the site, not as any form of ranking. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 07:38, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::To get back to what this discussion ''should'' be about, I also agree with RH being given block rights, so in light of Neph's endorsement, I've given him the rights. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:30, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I noticed right away looking at my Watchlist. Thank you! I'll test-block Joram just to find out how it all works, so don't be surprised if you see blocks of—and if I need it, possibly a single &quot;vandalism&quot; edit from—that account. Oh and you'll make a great Mom, GK. :Þ &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:21, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Aw, thanks RH! --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:38, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Block Request - [[User:Elliot]] ==<br /> <br /> First of all, I ''am'' aware that this is quite late but bear in mind I was very busy with exams and was therefore unable to post anything till now. I am asking to once again block Elliot, and this time for a month. Below is an email I received on June 18th from Elliot's uesp email, I'm guessing in response to [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;diff=580278&amp;oldid=580232 this] comment.<br /> <br /> :&quot;''Do not involve yourself in matters that concern me you little prick.''<br /> <br /> :-- <br /> :''This e-mail was sent by Elliot to SerCenKing by the &quot;E-mail user&quot; function at UESPWiki.''&quot;<br /> <br /> This is a clear violation of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Harassment WP:HARASS], but not only that: Elliot had been [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Elliot&amp;diff=577166&amp;oldid=577146 blocked] [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Michaeldsuarez&amp;curid=45995&amp;diff=577160&amp;oldid=569531&amp;rcid=597526 for exactly this kind of behaviour]. It appears as if he has yet again '''not''' learnt a lesson from his week long block and I therefore ask for a month-long block in the hope that it will help him understand that this behaviour is unacceptable here at UESP. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:02, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :It might not be my place, but I support disciplinary action against Elliot. I'm sorry you were harassed like that SerCenKing [[User:Corvus|Corvus]] 18:08, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::His block has expired and he has not returned to the site afterward. Some of you may know I was subject to the same thing earlier, but even so, I am going to remain neutral because he has shown no interest in returning.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 18:14, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::Core, yes he has. See [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard&amp;action=history here]. The email was sent ''after'' his block had expired. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:22, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Done. Ideally, I would have preferred to only block Elliot from using the wiki's email features, given that the immediate cause of the block is solely related to email. However, after looking at the wiki code it doesn't seem possible to do an email block without also blocking the user. Furthermore, I didn't think it was worth wasting my time on finding/creating a way to do an email-only block. In particular, there is no evidence that Elliot plans to make constructive wiki contributions (and in fact he has made statements specifically saying the opposite). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Thanks Neph :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:52, 3 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> ::::::I'm not sure if Krusty got my e-mail about this same issue, but since posting the text above isn't a violation of the privacy policy, I received this e-mail from Elliot on June 17: <br /> <br /> <br /> Are you a fucking baby?<br /> <br /> WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! He told me to stay off of his page! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH Nephele do something! I am too stupid and incompetent to even comprehend rules! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH He hurt my feelings!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.<br /> <br /> Grow up you fucking idiot. A retaliatory move like this shows your incompetence on a new level. Just leave the site. You are too retarded to contribute positively to it.<br /> <br /> Leave before you make a further ass out of yourself you worthless pile.<br /> <br /> -- <br /> This e-mail was sent by Elliot to TheAlbinoOrc by the &quot;E-mail user&quot; function at UESPWiki. <br /> <br /> <br /> I'd like to request that if there is any further continuation of this behavior Elliot be blocked permanently. This was presumably received in response to my change of vote and my comment on Nephele's talk page (which I would have clarified and expanded upon but I didn't feel like dealing with it at the time).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;<br /> &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:08, 3 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :In light of the recent email sent to TheAlbinoOrc I suggest that we extend Elliot's block to something like 6 months, maybe even block him indefinitely. It's behaviour like this that led him to his patroller status being stripped from him and another sad thing is that he appears to be continuing his childish behaviour even after Nephele blocked him not that long ago. So yeah, I suggest we extend Elliot's block by a considerable amount. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:24, 4 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Sorry about being late in to the discussion, but [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User_talk:Michaeldsuarez#Abusive_E-mail_by_Elliot I brought this issue up in May, but GK prevented me from taking action]. Elliot is clearly unable to handle the responsibility of the wiki's Email function. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 15:24, 8 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :Yeah I saw that whole thing unfold, sorry your thing was invalidated because of the privacy policy. At least now what people should do is clear though: Try to contact the Admins and then if they don't respond (or they tell you to bring it up on-wiki) do what was done here.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I don't know if this is grounds for an extension of the block. But Elliot, has just dismissed me as well as several other editors when he has been warned about doing that already. So if it okay with the wiki admins, I am requesting his block to be extended by another month. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 10:23, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Elliot has the right to remove content from his talk page if he wants to, although saying &quot;Go away&quot; in the edit summary is definitely not helpful. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Yeah it was the &quot;go away&quot; that I was referring to with my comment. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 14:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Question: Has Elliot attempted any kind of apology for this kind of behaviour, and entered some form of undertaking that he will not engage in such behaviour in future? [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 19:10, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :If you've looked at his {{Pl|User talk:Elliot|talk page|oldid=586076}} recently, you'll see that I encouraged him in that direction, but he ignored it. If he ''has'' done something along these lines, he hasn't done so publicly. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;‒ [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;↝&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:17, 10 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::In that case, as the purpose of a block is to prevent abusive behaviour, it would only seem logical to extend the block in cases were the subject shows no understanding of why their behaviour is unacceptable. I would suggest extending the block until at the very least an apology is received. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 21:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::I can see your point- but I know that if I had done nothing further wrong after being blocked, and received an extension of the block simply because I hadn't apologized I'd be ready to tear someone's head off (not literally of course). Besides repeated warnings/blocks have had no effect. Why should an apology?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;Got_a_question?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 06:00, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::He's also just deleted the entire discussion on his talk page claimed it to be &quot;gang warfare.&quot; --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 15:17, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::So??? As already pointed out, it's his talk page and he is free to remove content (other than official messages) from his talk page. It's also not exactly surprising that he's upset, so just let him be. There's no point in paying attention to the actions of a blocked user that have no impact on the rest of the site. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Possible Block Needed ==<br /> <br /> I think the new user [[User:Cpl.CumInAHam]] falls under the inappropriate username category. --[[Special:Contributions/78.144.134.29|78.144.134.29]] 15:12, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :By the way that was me who posted the above comment, I just forgot to log in. --[[User:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;blue&quot;&gt;'''''ModderElGrande'''''&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;orange&quot;&gt;Talk&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt; [[Special:Contributions/ModderElGrande|&lt;font color=&quot;red&quot;&gt;Contribs&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sub&gt; 15:16, 11 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Subdomain Redirecting ==<br /> <br /> It was just brought up in IRC by Magnus that [http://dungeonhack.uesp.net http://dungeonhack.uesp.net] now redirects to [http://www.eqwiki.net/ http://www.eqwiki.net/]. This dosen't seem right to me. Is this something that needs to be fixed by Daveh or Nephele?--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 02:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :Good point. I made a small change on the server which hopefully fixes things so they work the way Daveh intended. But if I seem to have introduced any new odd behaviours on content1, bring them up. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:27, 19 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Request Semi-Protection ==<br /> <br /> Please can [[Oblivion:Must Have Mods‎]] be semi-protected?<br /> <br /> I'm asking because the last couple of weeks have seen an upsurge in activity on this page and it's difficult to see this in any other light than people pushing either their own mods, or ones that they like. Certainly, none of the additions have been close to &quot;must have&quot;. I'm aware that this is a wiki, and I'm also aware of the [[UESPWiki:Etiquette|Etiquette]] policy, but this is one page where we are giving 3rd party mods the UESP ''imprimatur'', and we should be more careful what is allowed on the page. Restricting edits to &quot;known&quot; accounts at least lets us question the users who add suggestions. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:14, 20 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> : All done. You are right, there have been a load of edits to this page in the last couple of days and it is a nuisance, mostly because people tend to add mods that they created themselves - or, like you said, because they like them. If any other admin's object to this semi-protection, let's discuss it. In the meantime, and until we reach a decision, the page might as well be protected. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Thanks, Krusty. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == New namespace ==<br /> <br /> Please can an admin edit [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist|this page]] to add:<br /> &lt;pre&gt;<br /> Dawnstar ; DS ; Dawnstar<br /> &lt;/pre&gt;<br /> ...thanks to Krusty's latest purchase :) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:46, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Done. Let me know if I screwed anything up. &lt;tt&gt;;)&lt;/tt&gt; --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:13, 25 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Well it looks like the Western hemisphere escaped, but I wouldn't want to have been living in the East after that change.... ;) [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::: Why didn't it add itself to the sidebar?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:28, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: The sidebar is static, not dynamic. The [[User:Nephele|Powers That Be]] have deemed the mobile games to be of insufficient importance to add to the sidebar. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:04, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: That, of course, is a discussion we will have to revisit in the very near future. While I'm not sure we need to list all four mobile games in the sidebar, a simple &quot;ES Travels&quot; link would be appropriate, especially if we end up with good coverage on all four games. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 23:30, 26 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Semi-Protection of Oblivion:Mathieu Bellamont ==<br /> <br /> I want to ask an Admin to semi-protect [[Oblivion:Mathieu Bellamont]]'s page, becaue if you look at his page history, you'll see that a third of the edits are from anons, and another third are users reversing the edits of anons. Because he is one of the most infamous Oblivion NPCs, people will be naturally drawn to him and call obscure coincedences &quot;easter eggs&quot;, and because his diary and life story left so much open for guess, many will try and put it on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:52, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I disagree. Protection of any type should be used to prevent repeated vandalism, which has not occurred on this article. It doesn't really make much sense to protect it, since every edit by an IP (at least in the last year) though it may have been reverted was made in good faith. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:21, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) I'm not sure it is a good idea to start semi-protecting every page that gets a lot of traffic. The reason the Mods page was semi-protected recently was that several anons used it to advertise their own mods, and this is not the case here. They more or less acts in good faith and that is fully justified. A much better alternative on a page like this - instead of several reverts within minutes - is to take it easy, take deep breaths for a few hours, maybe send the anon a message - and then revert. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:25, 27 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Blockers, Take 2 ==<br /> <br /> [[User:rpeh|rpeh]] brought up a point in IRC that I had forgotten about or perhaps initially misunderstood (after 5 months, who knows what I was thinking at the time): in the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive_14#New_User_Group|original proposal]], rpeh's intent was that Blocker rights would be granted on a ''very'' short-term basis when an Admin left, then revoked when they returned. I saw the first part of his suggestion as being a permanently-granted role, and reading between the lines, I think some others did too. He tried to clarify in the ensuing discussion, but I think it got lost in the large volume of edits that ensued.<br /> <br /> I certainly hadn't intended to ask for something that wasn't originally intended by the proposal. If others, like me, understood that this would be a permanent right, then all is well. If it's felt that this should be granted on a short-term basis only, then by all means, I'm happy to relinquish the privilege, except as needed. Since this is really a question of whether Admins want to grant the privilege to somebody every time they leave, I think it's really up to them to decide. Thoughts, admins? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:36, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I understood rpeh's original proposal to be that, in addition to having permanent &quot;blockers&quot;, we ''can'' grant temporary rights when necessary on a short-term basis. That's a handy additional feature, but I understood the main proposal to be to create a new group of users that have the permanent right.<br /> :Rereading the original proposal, it also reminded me of the suggestion of a page where blocks performed by non-admins would be listed immediately upon the block being given, so that there's a central page that admins can reference when investigating such blocks. Should that perhaps be a subpage of this page, or of [[UESPWiki:Blockuser]]? --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I could see it going in either place, but my vote would be either in the AN itself or as a subpage of it, just so that it's in a highly-trafficked area that people are more likely to know where to find it. At first, I didn't like the idea of the page, but on consideration, I think it'll give us a convenient location to provide an explanation for the block, to ensure that all appropriate steps were taken, and to have follow-up discussions, if necessary. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Following up on my thoughts [[#Removal of Blocked Notice for RoBoT|below]] about IRC and official wiki decisions, I think we also need some type of official wiki statement from Timenn about rpeh's current Blocker rights. Specifically, are those rights supposed to be temporary? In which case, how long are they supposed to last, or under what conditions are they supposed to expire? In fact, I think perhaps the Blocker policy needs to be amended to state that any time temporary blocker rights are given, there needs to be some record of the expected duration of those rights (perhaps using the [[UESPWiki:Blockers#Current Blockers|Current Blockers]] list, or probably even simply by including the expected duration in the comment written when assigning the rights).<br /> <br /> :::Conversely, are those rights supposed to be permanent? In which case, there needs to be a discussion on the wiki (e.g., here on the Admin Noticeboard, or else on the Blockers talk page) about those permanent rights, and in particular the two admins approving the decision need to post their approval. Also, based on RobinHood70's precedent, any permanent blockers should be listed at [[UESPWiki:Blockers#Current Blockers|Current Blockers]].<br /> <br /> :::Basically, I think for this policy to work, there needs to be some type of official wiki record of all Blocker-related decisions, so that the other admins know what is going on. The whole purpose of temporary Blocker rights is that they are assigned when no other admins are active -- so by definition the only way for other admins to learn the details of the decision is if something is posted on the wiki. Or else we at least need some discussion of what should be assumed in the absence of any extra information. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I asked for temporary blocker rights because he wasn't going to be around and we were experiencing heavy wandalism. If you think it would benefit the wiki to remove them and leave the site unprotected during the US nighttime, please feel free to remove them. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:00, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Pages Needing Protection ==<br /> <br /> These three pages are in the [[:Category:Full Protection|Full Protection]] category but aren't protected at the moment. Please can an admin protect them when he or she has a spare moment?<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Site Support/Summary 2010]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Site Support/January 2010]]<br /> * [[UESPWiki:Site Support/February 2010]]<br /> Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:04, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Oh, and as RobinHood pointed out in May, [[Template:Archive Header]] still needs semi-protection. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:06, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Protection set for said articles. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 09:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Thanks, Timenn! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:12, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: And from me as well! &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:47, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Archiving, Revisisted ==<br /> <br /> Subsequent to [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14#Archives|this discussion]], which I interpreted as a small consensus, I started using a chronological archiving process for the Administrator Noticeboard archives. [[User:rpeh|rpeh]] has now decided to switch back to the old method, for the reasons he outlined in [[User_talk:RobinHood70#Archives|this subsequent discussion]]. At the moment, I consider this to be against consensus, but in light of how small the original consensus was, I'm bringing it back to the community for discussion.<br /> <br /> So, can I get some opinions on what archiving process we want to use for AN, please? Based on the above discussion and [[UESPWiki:Community Portal#Archiving Process|this related one]], I believe we should be archiving AN in large archives based on dates (probably either a full year or half a year per archive) with important discussions moved to their own page and then transcluded back. Any other opinions? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The system was working fine until you started to try to change it. Why change a working system? The only argument I've seen for large archives is that if we stick to smaller ones, we'll end up with too many. 19 CP archives and 15 AN archives in 5 1/2 years argues against this, unless we keep having irrelevant discussions about archiving. Long pages take longer to generate and load, and take more CPU power to process too. They're less useful because the date range will be much less specific.<br /> <br /> : As far as I'm concerned, I'm not &quot;switching back&quot; to anything and I really can't believe somebody who's edited the wiki as much as you is really claiming you had a consensus for your suggestion. If we said that everything that came up on CP and AN and didn't get a response is approved ''nemine contradicente'', we'd have some seriously weird policies and pages. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:53, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Skipping the denigration of my personal opinions, which isn't really helpful to the discussion, I already consider 19 and 15 archives to be exceedingly large. Since a lot of that is recent, as the site gained popularity, I expect that to increase even further once TESV comes out. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:58, 18 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::(warning, this became longwinded) - What is the purpose of maintaining the archives? If its purely to get the information off the page, then it dosen't matter how you do it, and one bog archive would be fine. If your actively expecting people to reference them, then you probably should theme archives by topic rather than by date (Which I notice already is how Administrative Requests and Vandalism are dealt with). My gut feeling is no-one aside from me and rpeh ever feels the need to read the things, and for me personally a page per year would be fine. Obviously rpeh prefers things more split up than that. I suppose in a nutshell, we need to answer why you feel 19/15 archives is to many? How do you feel its detrimental or why do you feel a smaller number would be beneficial? [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 02:21, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::If you think that's long-winded, you clearly haven't been reading my posts or Nephele's! :) There are probably a few different answers to your first question, but to me, the primary point of an archive is to have a searchable record of previous discussions (usually used in discussions just like this one). After that, you've made me realize that there are really several questions here, rather than just one, and I think that's adding to the overall confusion. So re-thinking/re-stating, here are the questions I see and my thoughts on them:<br /> <br /> ::::# What size of archive is appropriate?<br /> ::::#: Contrary to the impression I seem to have given rpeh, I'm not really a fan of huge archives. Large archives ''are'' usually faster for the computer to search than the equivalent number of small ones, but that depends on the system, and in this case, the time difference for something like this is probably negligible in any event. (Nephele has a much better understanding of that than I do, I think.) Time to transfer the page to the viewer is more of an issue, and rpeh is correct that smaller is better in that regard, though on the flip side, the pages are not highly accessed, so I tend to feel that...errr...&quot;size doesn't matter&quot; (much). I tend to prefer larger numbers of topics than we've had historically (prior to Archive 13) for the simple reason that it allows you to search/read through more than just a handful of topics at a time. This is useful in a number of situations like searching for something that isn't categorized into an existing topic, searching for a post by a specific author, searching for a specific word you remember being used in a discussion, or whatever other unforeseen need-of-the-moment you may have.<br /> ::::# What archive organization is appropriate?<br /> ::::#: I think it makes a lot of sense to have some coherence to the system where, for example, each archive spans x number of months and is set on a year-boundary (i.e., January automatically starts a new archive), rather than some random amount based entirely on when someone felt like archiving the page. This was the main thrust of my previous discussion. Given the size of the more recent archives, I was figuring that a break-point of every 6 months would make sense, but if the general preference is for smaller pages, then every 3 or 4 would also be logical. It would also allows us to simplify the archive table to something like &quot;2010: 1 2 3 4&quot; rather than listing each archive individually. If we're going to move to a by-topic organization, then that's fine, but I think we should move ''entirely'' to such a system (though that would be a whole other organizational discussion). I personally find this mish-mash of chronological but separating out ''only some'' discussions by topic to be very chaotic. But maybe that's just me.<br /> ::::# Should archives be categorized?<br /> ::::#: It's not the way I ''tend'' to search, but it's commonly done with archives of most kinds and I can certainly see the benefit of it. Assuming we keep categorizing discussions, I would suggest that we start categorizing ''as'' a discussion takes place rather than leaving it to the archiver to figure it out. It would make it easier to find for all involved if they knew what it would be categorized under when the discussion took place and it's less likely that categories will get left out. If we don't want to categorize the whole page, then we could put them in an HTML comment or template designed to only categorize when in an archive page. (Though again, this may be better off as its own discussion.)<br /> ::::&lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 04:42, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Some Admin Eyes Please? ==<br /> <br /> http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion_talk:The_Necromancer%27s_Amulet#Amulet_Leveling<br /> <br /> Hope this is the appropriate place to draw attention to something like this, but could someone take a peek over here and perhaps throw some water on the fire? The random appearance of an unknown IP user is heating things up a bit. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 08:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : It's time for the discussion to stop. I stopped bothering yesterday evening because it was obvious nobody was going to change anybody else's mind. The same is still true. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: No offense, but you're at least part of why I brought this issue to the Administration. I'd like an administrator to comment on it. The random IP guy has apparently decided to descend into personal attacks at this point. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 08:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Youre the one who decided to turn this into a fight. If you had accepted the CONSENSUS that you are WRONG, this debate would have been over long ago. [[Special:Contributions/94.228.219.141|94.228.219.141]] 08:52, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: Seriously, the pair of you - stop this pointless bickering. If this continues, you'll both be in line for a warning. I'm not going to give the warning myself because I ''was'' involved in the argument even though I stopped, but somebody will. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 08:54, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I don't think it's at all appropriate to once again receive a threat from you on this issue when all I did on this page is try to bring it to an &lt;i&gt;administrator's&lt;/i&gt; attention. I can't control what the other guy decides to do. I tried to make a contribution, and two people jumped down my throat about it, one of whom has resorted to blatant insults. This isn't the kind of thing that encourages people to want to contribute. It has exactly the opposite effect. If I'm to receive a warning for trying to argue a case, so be it, but that sends a very bad signal to others who might have observed the exchange. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 10:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I have never threatened you and I am not doing so now since I clearly said I would ''not'' be handing out warnings. I suggest you read the site's [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]] and consider whether your contributions are currently constructive or disruptive. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: Well since I've made plenty of other contributions and I haven't attempted to engage in a reversion war over the incident that caused this mess, I'd be inclined to say I'm not causing a disruption. I'd be more inclined to say your veiled threats are what's causing the disruption, and this other person's rather over the top hostility is causing disruption. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 11:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Can somebody block this Arthmoor guy? I think everybody is getting bored with his continual harping on the same issue when he obviously knows nothing wiki policy. The way he keeps distorting what other people say should be considered a personal attack. [[Special:Contributions/94.228.219.141|94.228.219.141]] 10:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :ok i read the whole thing and what i have to say is...arithamor(forgot your name) you have to be open to new ideas, even if your sure something is right, it could still be wrong, and unknown don't be so rude,you're never going to get to someone with a idea if your always shouting/being rude. i don't think either of you require a warning but you should both change your attitude,''very much''--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 11:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Being open to new ideas is fine. But there is a big difference between that and being bullied into accepting that you're &quot;wrong&quot; when you don't believe you are. Since someone else has already commented in the discussion suggesting precisely what I already tried to do, is it safe to assume that edit could be done? I think we can all agree it's worthy of notice even if nobody can agree it's actually a bug. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 11:22, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::It may also be worth noting that wikipedia has the ip address 94.228.219.141 permablocked as its a proxy address registered to iloveprivacy.eu [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:94.228.219.141]] [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 22:14, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Which is why Robin Hood tagged the IP address as one that [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:94.228.219.141&amp;oldid=594536 needs to be blocked], and why I then permanently [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3A94.228.219.141&amp;diff=594612&amp;oldid=594536 blocked it] -- I explicitly stated in the [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&amp;type=block block reason] that wikipedia confirmed the IP was an open proxy, because I had already looked at the wikipedia user talk page. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:41, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Ah excellent. I should have realised it had already been dealt with! [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 23:01, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Block Notification ==<br /> <br /> We had suggested the idea that all blocks done by Blockers would be posted somewhere specific. Since nothing formal has been set up as yet, I'm posting here for now.<br /> <br /> I've just blocked [[User:82.208.46.123]] for 3 hours for intimidating behaviour on [[Oblivion talk:The Necromancer's Amulet]] and for being an open proxy. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:38, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :The block is not immediately obvious when looking at the user's talk page on Wikipedia, but it can be seen here: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:GlobalBlockList/82.208.46.123]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Thanks, Robin Hood. That's the info I was looking for -- I'd checked the [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&amp;type=block&amp;page=User%3A82.208.46.123 standard block log], but forgot about wikimedia's global blocks. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 05:45, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: And another one. [[User:208.53.142.39]] is also blocked for 3 hours per [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:BlockList&amp;ip=208.53.142.39 Wikipedia]. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:41, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Update: It seems the user is IP-hopping. It may be beneficial to semi-protect the page rather than trying to keep up with blocks. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:43, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I've created [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Block Notifications|this subpage]] to keep track of blocks not made by admins. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 11:00, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: That works for me. Can I suggest that an admin permanently semi-protect it to minimize the chance of vandalism to that page? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 16:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I blanked the list once [[User:Krusty|Krusty]] had made the blocks permanent. Do we want to do it like that or should it always be an admin who clears the list? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:58, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I'm fine either way, though if we're going to leave it in place, I'd suggest we add new entries at the top rather than at the bottom, just for easier administration (no pun intended). &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:48, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: While we're on the topic (in a very broad sense, at least), did we want permanent Blocker requests to be archived like Admin and Patroller discussions are? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:55, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: I don't think that's necessary, but it wouldn't bother me if people wanted a permanent record. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:03, 21 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == New Set of Blocks ==<br /> <br /> Just a quick note to whichever Admin looks at {{Pl|UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Block_Notifications|the new blocks|diff=595375&amp;oldid=595089}}: the list is dynamic for all TOR exit nodes at the time, so some or all of these nodes may have disappeared from the list by the time you check them.<br /> <br /> Also, I was initially just blocking for the fact that they were harassing/vandalizing, so I didn't put Proxy warning messages on the affected pages, since I hadn't confirmed that they were TOR at that point. Given that they're all currently blocked for vandalism, it seems a little redundant to put additional messages on for the fact that they're also TOR addresses. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 03:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Same thing goes for today's — all TOR exit nodes have been verified against [https://check.torproject.org/cgi-bin/TorBulkExitList.py?ip=67.205.76.81 the TOR servers] themselves. If a Wikipedia/Google link is desired, though, let me know and I'll provide those with my Block Notifications. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 08:04, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Removal of Blocked Notice for RoBoT ==<br /> <br /> In regards to rpeh's removal of [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:RoBoT&amp;diff=prev&amp;oldid=595724 this block notice], I've reverted it because I believe that it should have Admin approval first.<br /> <br /> Please don't take this the wrong way, it's just that I just don't want to set the precedent that any user, no matter who, feels that they can remove a warning from a page under their control without prior permission from the Administrators. Given that rpeh has been allowed to archive his own personal warnings, I see no reason that he shouldn't be allowed to archive RoBoT's as well, though I would vote against outright deletion, on the basis that, so far as I know, he wasn't allowed to delete his own warning, either. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:12, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Once again you're interfering in things that don't concern you. I was given permission to remove my own warnings, from Timenn, who discussed it with Ratwar. I was allowed to remove the warning as long as I archived it into its own page and gave that page a link, which I have done. RoBoT never broke any policy and was only blocked out of vindictiveness, so should never have got a block in the first place. Since the block was aimed at '''me''', it is stupid to keep an invalid notice on RoBoT's page. Now stop sticking your nose into other people's business. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::{{ec}} Furthermore, it seems that rpeh felt the need to re-revert, against warning message removal policy. I will not start an edit war, however I feel that the warning should be re-instated until such time as Admins have specifically allowed him to remove it from RoBoT's page, as he has already been given permission to do with his own. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:20, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: The block was aimed at '''me'''. '''I''' have been given permission as already discussed. RoBoT has nothing to do with it. This discussion is a pointless waste of time. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:23, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As I said on my talk page, point me to the discussion that allows you to outright delete a block notice on RoBoT's talk page, as opposed to archiving notices on your own, and I'll apologize for the misunderstanding. It's just that it sets an extremely bad precedent for a user to outright delete a block notice just because he feels that it violated policy. Honestly, if you'd simply archived the warning and your reason had been that you were archiving it like all the others, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, you deleted it, citing that you believed it was against policy. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 09:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: The user being blocked was '''me''', not RoBoT, which was only included because the admin concerned was feeling particularly vindictive. I've archived the warnings given to me, but it's stupid to keep a notice on RoBoT's page as a sign of contrition when it's a series of ones and zeroes that can't show any such emotion. Honestly, if you'd simply stayed away from a situation that was over months ago, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Instead, you jumped into a situation that never involved you in reply to a month old comment. Can I get back to doing important work now, please? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:40, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}This is absolutely ridiculous. rpeh, I understand your reasoning, but did you honestly think that this was the best way to go about it? If you felt the pressing need to remove the block notice, sure remove it - with your reasoning. RH's actions and comments, however, were not out of line. I don't understand how you can think anything he did was less than appropriate. He's entirely correct in saying that it sets a bad precedent. Just a little civil back-and-forth conversation on the matter is all that's needed. If your response to RH's actions had been to re-state your reasoning and request support from admins, you most likely would have gotten it and been able to remove the notice without any of this BS. It's not that difficult, and a little forethought would've resulted in the conclusion that that would be the most amicable solution. What ''was'' out of line were your dismissive comments (&quot;go away&quot;, &quot;Once again you're interfering in things that don't concern you.&quot;, &quot;Now stop sticking your nose into other people's business.&quot;, &quot;This discussion is a pointless waste of time.&quot;, &quot;you jumped into a situation that never involved you&quot;, &quot;Can I get back to doing important work now, please?&quot;, &quot;MYOB&quot;). I'm rather disappointed in the way this was handled.<br /> <br /> I, in fact, agree that the block shouldn't have been extended to the bot in the first place without a reason (such as the blocked user still using the bot's account), and that there's no reason to keep or even archive the block notice since the bot didn't deserve any administrative action in the first place. This type of behavior, however, is not acceptable from any user, no matter the provocation. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : ''If you felt the pressing need to remove the block notice, sure remove it - with your reasoning'' - [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoBoT&amp;diff=595724&amp;oldid=595640 I did], but RH reinstated it. Yet again I had to spend my time arguing about things rather than working on the site, and I'm sick and tired of it. RH was not involved in any of the discussions about warning archival and has no authority over RoBoT's talk page, yet he feels it necessary to reply to a two-month-old question and change an official notice. Why? Yes, my replies were curt, but I am fed up with having to deal with this kind of nonsense. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 13:58, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Yep, you did. And RH reverted it. Which he had every right to do. The fact that he was not involved in any of the discussions regarding warning archival doesn't mean he doesn't have the right to become involved in this discussion. Your reasoning baffles me. Additionally, this is not &quot;nonsense&quot;, it's community discussion, the backbone of a wiki. It's how things work. You are perfectly aware of the expectation to maintain (and perfectly capable of maintaining, from my memory) a civil tone even when you disagree. I don't understand why you thought you shouldn't do so in this situation. If someone disagrees with your actions, the acceptable thing for them to do is to revert your actions. Then, acceptable actions on your part would be to have a ''civil'' discussion. You know this, and (as I said) are perfectly capable of it. Why wouldn't you do so? --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Honestly rpeh, if you (or anyone else) is at the point where they feel that they ''have'' to contribute to a voluntary project, then they might want to think about taking a break before they burn out. The site should be about what people want to contribute, and hopefully they should be having fun while they are at it. The wiki might not get worked on as fast, but in the long term it is not worth much aggro. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 16:35, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: The trouble is, Jadrax, that when I don't contribute, nobody else picks up the slack. Every time I take a break, the patrol queue grows out of control, with inaccurate information being added and dozens of questions remaining unanswered. I ''do'' have fun on this wiki, but not when people start wasting my time for no good reason. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:44, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: {{ec}} That's not entirely true. When I was working on templates and noticed that the patrol queue had gotten behind a couple of weeks ago, I stopped my template work and worked on patrolling instead. I noticed several other Patrollers working on the backlog as well during that time. In the space of the next couple of days, we were almost caught up, then you came back from your break and finished it. And honestly, it's not the end of the world if the patrol queue falls behind - people will eventually notice the inconsistencies and fix them.<br /> <br /> :::::: All that is irrelevant to the main point of this discussion, though. My actions were appropriate, based on our notice removal policy, and I would have taken the same actions with ''anybody'' from an Admin down to the newest user had they done the same thing. I understand why you might have thought it reasonable to remove it, but it really looked inappropriate for an involved user to just remove a warning with no clear record of why you should be allowed to do so, particularly this long after archiving your own warnings, and without even any mention of the permission to archive that Timenn gave you. It was a simple matter of dotting your i's and crossing your t's to get an Admin to simply say &quot;yeah, go ahead and remove it&quot;, and I didn't see it as anything but. In fact, I got involved in that two-month-old discussion when I was browsing RoBoT and NepheleBot's pages during my recent work on HotnBOThered, and noticed that to anybody reading it, it looked like the bot was still blocked. I thought I was doing a service when I made it clear that the block no longer applied. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:01, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: Sorry but it ''is'' true. Every time I'm away for any length of time, the patrol queue grows. That's why I re-applied to be a patroller. I don't dispute that other people do patrolling too, but I'm afraid it has been indisputable that they don't do as much as I do. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::: I said not &quot;entirely&quot; true. Nobody's denying that you do the bulk of the patrolling, but that becomes self-perpetuating. The other Patrollers get used to you doing it, and therefore don't check as often, or sit down to do a bunch only to find that you've already done it. I think you're probably creating your own problem to some degree. Try taking a break for a few days or a week at some point, but ''tell people'' that you're doing so. I know I would've been a ''lot'' busier with the patrolling when you took your recent break had I known beforehand that you were going to do so. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:18, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::In my opinion, deletion of the block notice is inappropriate. Contrary to Mikeyboy52's [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoBoT&amp;diff=576754&amp;oldid=497899 assertion], RoBoT [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ARoBoT&amp;diff=576754&amp;oldid=497899 was blocked]; the block notice is the official message recording that the block happened. In general, I think there are situations where outright removal of warning/block notices would be acceptable, but I think that only applies when the initial warning/block was a mistake: for example, if IP addresses get mixed up, or if a new editor gives an official warning for a good-faith edit. In RoBoT's case, the block was not a mistake: Ratwar intentionally blocked all accounts used by rpeh. Especially given that the situation was initiated by inappropriate use of multiple wiki accounts, I think Ratwar's actions were reasonable.<br /> <br /> :::::Furthermore, RoBoT ''is'' rpeh. Rpeh has the password to RoBoT's account and can personally login as RoBoT any time he chooses; he controls every action taken by RoBoT. The reason RoBoT exists is effectively to give rpeh privileges he does not usually have, namely to have the bot's edits hidden by default on the Recent Changes page. Any restrictions that apply to rpeh should apply -- perhaps even more strongly -- to alternate accounts with elevated privileges. From a practical point of view, in light of past events, I'm less likely to give RoBoT the benefit of the doubt should something questionable occur -- which is, from my point of view, exactly what the record of old block/warning notices is supposed to represent.<br /> <br /> :::::In any case, it should definitely not be up to the user who was blocked/warned to make a unilateral decision about what can or cannot be done with any block/warning notices. That clearly goes against existing policy, and any such precedent would make it impossible to enforce future warning and block notices. In fact, even the precedent to allow such notices to be archived is ambiguous, given that there is no official wiki discussion about the previous decision. In the absence of anything official on the wiki, we have no basis for assuming that any other messages can be archived.<br /> <br /> :::::Therefore, I think we first need to get confirmation from Timenn of whatever decisions were made in IRC regarding the block notices. (Ideally, it would be good to also get Ratwar's confirmation of his IRC statements, but I realize that's unlikely to happen). As everyone knows, [[UESPWiki:IRC#IRC_and_UESP|policy]] states that IRC cannot be used for formal decisions, and a decision about what is allowed regarding official user notices should be a formal wiki decision -- especially if that decision is then going to be used to set the precedent for other user notices.<br /> <br /> :::::Only once we know details of the precedent can we meaningfully discuss whether to extend the precedent. Or else archiving (or even deleting) RoBoT's block message can be discussed as an entirely separate issue, without invoking any precedent -- in which case I think any discussion needs to start with some explanation of why such an action is necessary or appropriate. So far, I don't think any justification has been given for why existing policy should be ignored in this case. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:45, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::RoBoT is '''not''' Rpeh or I wouldn't bother having two accounts. Policy states that users are blocked for actions they take: it does not state that blocks are made for actions that ''might'' be performed. RoBoT violated no policy (neither did I, but that's another matter altogether), and was blocked contrary to policy because the admin concerned had a chip on his shoulder (see his letter posted on Wikipedia for proof of that statement). I never tried to evade my block either as Rpeh or RoBoT. So why should RoBoT have to put up with what is an illegal block notice on its talk page? I fail to see the utility of continuing this discussion. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 16:51, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Whatever people believe about the reality of the situation, the evidence available made it appear that you were abusing multiple accounts. In those circumstances, I think it was entirely appropriate for Ratwar to block all accounts that he knew were tied to you. The fact that there were personal issues between you is unfortunate, but his actions were nevertheless based on the available evidence and not out of line with what I think any other administrator would have done.<br /> <br /> :::::::Now, we could rehash the whole debate about the evidence, motives, blah blah blah, but I really don't see the point. That's long over and done with, and best left that way. The question at hand is whether or not removal of the notice was appropriate, and given that you were never given permission to completely remove official notices by any administrator, it clearly wasn't. That moves us into... &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::::I will have to check my IRC logs later on to check what Ratwar and I literally said, but the important thing is that he agreed with the current solution of how it is on rpeh´s talk page now (IIRC, RoBoT wasn't mentioned or referred to). His main intent was that be warning and block notice both be easily accessible from the talk page. The current link as compromise was announced on the Admin Noticeboard, so others users were free to comment on it. Policy decisions need to be made on the wiki, but users are free to discuss their differences off-wiki if they wish it, as long as they realise it will only mean reaching an (unofficial) agreement among themselves. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 11:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::Thanks, Timenn, in particular for mentioning the overlooked [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14#Warnings Policy|Warnings Policy]] discussion. And to follow up on one point of contention in that discussion: just because section protection was added to the policy later than the other text doesn't mean it somehow &quot;takes precedence&quot;. In my opinion, the current policy pages, in their entirety, are all equally valid. The bottom line being that the [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Blocked Accounts|Blocking Policy]] explicitly states &quot;''Deletion of official messages is only acceptable after receiving permission from the administrators. Such permission is only granted at the discretion of the administrators, in cases where the editor has acknowledged and made efforts to correct the original problem(s).''&quot; (And the [[UESPWiki_talk:Blocking_Policy#Deleting_Warnings|talk page]] has the background behind that policy).<br /> :::::::::Furthermore, in response to rpeh, RoBoT and rpeh are two separate accounts because RoBoT has special privileges (as I already mentioned). Nevertheless, a single person is responsible for both accounts. As stated in [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Bot_policy Wikipedia's Bot policy]: &quot;''Bot accounts are considered alternative accounts of their operator for the purposes of the user account policy.''&quot; Furthermore, &quot;''bot operators should be editors in good standing''&quot; -- and I'd say if the bot operator is blocked, that automatically means the bot operator is not in good standing. In other words, bot accounts should automatically be blocked whenever the editor's account is blocked (and probably for even longer than the editor's account, because an editor doesn't return to &quot;good standing&quot; the minute a block expires). So upon further examination, the only problem I see with RoBoT's block is that it was insufficient: RoBoT should have been blocked four times, and for more than just one week.<br /> :::::::::All of which leads me to conclude that the block message belongs on RoBoT's talk page. Given rpeh's [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion%3AThe_Necromancer%27s_Amulet&amp;diff=594469&amp;oldid=594460 own words], I'm reinstating it until there's some conclusion about archiving official messages. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::::: Retrospectively applying sanctions is quite clearly against natural justice so to use an argument that RoBoT should have been blocked more and then base decisions on that argument is not valid. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 14:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} She didn't. She said that the original block and message were made in accordance with the policy of the time, then gave reasoning why she thought that policy ''could'' have been interpreted even more harshly than it was.<br /> <br /> Also, just as a note for those not following the page, the warning message has now been archived, albeit with some {{Pl|User_talk:RoBoT|rather petulant commentary|diff=596651&amp;oldid=596643}}...but that's rpeh's decision. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 16:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Man! I can't believe I just spent several hours researching and writing down details for the new [[Shivering:Relmyna Verenim|Relmyna Verenim]] article when I could have participated in this constructive discussion. Please notify me next time something this exiting is going on. Kidding aside, this discussion clogs up the Recent Changes, makes us all look like idiots and should end right now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 16:35, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> === Proposal for Allowing Official Notice Archiving ===<br /> Traditionally, our policy has been to leave warning and block notices on a user's page indefinitely. For users who continue to edit after their warning or block, however, this can eventually move away from being an appropriate warning and turn into a badge of shame, which is not the point of an official warning. I would like to propose that legitimate official notices be allowed to be ''archived'' (never removed) to a &lt;tt&gt;&lt;User talk page&gt;/Warnings&lt;/tt&gt; page after 6 months, provided that there is consensus among the Administrators to allow the move. A link to the Warnings page must also be provided on the talk page in an easy-to-see location, as would normally be done with any other archive. This will allow Administrators to easily view recent history, and know where to look for older history. Bad behaviour or additional warnings during that 6 months would presumably negate any Admin consensus, but that could be stipulated specifically, if need be.<br /> <br /> As Nephele suggested, I agree that complete removal of an official notice can be allowed in cases where it was clearly frivolous or incorrect, with any dispute about the legitimacy being, again, based on Admin consensus. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:49, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :This proposal works for me.<br /> :The only minor question would be whether there needs to be some clause comparable to that found in current policy, namely &quot;in cases where the editor has acknowledged and made efforts to correct the original problem(s).&quot; Which, I suppose, comes down to having some type of reassurance that any warning messages are no longer needed as active, regular reminders against inappropriate behaviour. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Were there any further comments or concerns with this proposed policy, or should I go ahead and put it in place, with Nephele's amendments? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 05:48, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == TOR Blocking ==<br /> <br /> Subsequent to several discussions on blocking TOR exit nodes, I've recently found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:TorBlock TorBlock]. It's a relatively simple extension that allows blocking of TOR users with a variety of options. I think it's something we might want to take a look at. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I've gone ahead and installed it, instead of coming up with some way on my own to do the same thing. Configuration settings are the default settings (other than setting the wgTorIPs to a correct set of values). Which means without logging in, people accessing the site via Tor should only be able to read articles; logged-in editors using Tor have standard access. I haven't actually tested it, though (short of confirming that the extension shows up on the Version page). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:27, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I'll download Tor and do some basic testing. Another user who's more familiar with it has also offered, but I'll let that person speak for themselves. Hopefully this will mean an end to, or at least a substantial reduction in, the number of Tor users we have to deal with. Now we just need to worry about all the other proxy servers out there. :-/ &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:30, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I happen to be that user. I offered to stress-test the system and I will plan on editing my own talk page under as many TOR nodes as I can with your permissions, of course.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 22:47, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::As you can see on [[User_talk:RobinHood70#TOR Testing|my talk page]], I was able to get through on a TOR address with a little patience. Perhaps the extension just hasn't downloaded a list of IPs yet...? One way or the other, the IP I was editing from is there, so it should be easy enough to figure out why it wasn't detected. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:07, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I went looking the other day for stuff on Tor and found this: http://www.irongeek.com/i.php?page=security/detect-tor-exit-node-in-php it's a pretty small chunk of code, and from what I could tell, it worked to detect exit nodes. Since it uses a DNSBL provided by the people who make Tor, it should be fairly reliable. [[User:Arthmoor|Arthmoor]] 23:14, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I've tried about a dozen exit nodes now, and all but two were manually blocked. The second time that I wasn't manually blocked, TorBlock kicked in and I was auto-blocked. So either something has changed since my last message, or it's just a matter of waiting until TorBlock has time to build up its database of Tor addresses. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:21, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Update: Either I have strange luck or something just changed, as it seems that all the addresses I try, including the one that got through earlier, are auto-blocked now instead of manually blocked or getting through. This would suggest that my theory was right, earlier, and that the list just hadn't been downloaded yet, as I don't see anything from Nephele about any changes since installing it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:28, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} I've downgraded the version of the extension for compatibility with the site's current Mediawiki code (MW14.0), so we're now running the version of TorBlock that was in place at the time MW14.0 was released. The up-to-date version that I first installed was using some hooks that our Mediawiki doesn't recognize -- meaning that some parts of the TorBlock code were never being accessed. That said, though, the most important hooks (such as &quot;GetBlockedStatus&quot;) are ones that our Mediawiki uses. Also, I only did the downgrade well after RobinHood70's last report that he was successfully getting autoblocked.<br /> <br /> So, basically, all the tests should really be redone given that the code has been replaced ;)<br /> <br /> Also, I ran loadExitNodes as soon as I installed the extension (before even posting any mention of it on the site), so it should have had started off with a list of tor nodes. However, after RobinHood70's initial comment about problems, I cobbled together some tests to check the tor node list -- which confirmed that it has a list of 1301 exit nodes (including the one that RH got through on), and that the list is being stored in and retrieved from memcached. So I'm not really sure why things would have been inconsistent. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:56, 23 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Okay, I'll re-test. At first blush, it appeared that I might still be able to create an account, but that's not 100% certain by any means. The one time I tried, I got a manual block notice rather than an auto-block notice. Just tweaking a template a bit, then I'll get on it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::On re-testing, everything still works as expected, and I was unable to get through anonymously on any node that I tried. It looks like account creation first checks for a manual block, ''then'' checks TorBlock, but either way, it's still blocked. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:27, 24 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Nephele, et al: If there's any further testing that you'd like to do with someone using TOR, either on-site or off, let me know. If not, I'll uninstall it in the next few days. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 17:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Just to be certain, do the blocks only affect anonymous users? Can registered users still use TOR? I have to use TOR in order to access some blocked sites and to ensure my privacy whenever I travel to a foreign country (eg. China, Saudi Arabia). I believe that we should still keep TOR's original intentions in mind; it wasn't made for abuse. Also, TOR is slow anyway. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 17:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Yes, registered users can still use TOR. New users would have to create an account without the benefit of TOR, though if that itself were an issue, they could readily ask someone (Daveh by e-mail, a friend, or in our forums) to create an account for them. We should probably update [[UESPWiki:Contact]] to reflect that. I'll wait a bit, in case people have other suggestions that should be taken into account. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Sounds good. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 19:21, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Edit to Protected Page requested ==<br /> <br /> Please can an admin fix [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior#Knight_of_the_White_Stallion|this page]] so it doesn't link to the Knights of the White Stallion disambig page? It should link to the quest page instead. Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 11:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Done. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 11:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == rpeh...again ==<br /> <br /> Would an Administrator please have a look at the series of edits to rpeh's talk page from [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Rpeh&amp;diff=598616&amp;oldid=598471 here] forward, please? I acknowledge rpeh's right to edit his own talk page, but he's not respecting my right to edit and/or remove my own post. I would appreciate it if someone could have a talk with him about it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===RobinHood70... AGAIN===<br /> : You don't have any such right. I am not misrepresenting you because I haven't edited anything you said or changed the order of your posts so nothing on [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Talk_page_guidelines this page] applies. So nice to have another productive discussion. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::You have implied that I'm wrong and are removing any reply I make to the contrary. How is that any kind of good faith or good wiki editing practice? As for the page you just linked to, &quot;Never edit or move someone's comment to change its meaning, even on your own talk page.&quot; Removing my comment inherently changes the meaning, since it makes it appear that I don't disagree with your statement. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:20, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::It doesn't change the meaning at all. You said that rounding was why my program was producing values different by 13 from the existing ones. My response was that rounding has nothing to do with it. It doesn't. That means that, although I didn't say it on my talk page, you were wrong. I have no idea why you want to spread the fact that you were wrong over the admin noticeboard, but that's up to you. Now, I'm having nothing more to do with yet another thread designed to do nothing but distract people from useful editing. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 01:28, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No, if you look at the very first sentence in the post that you've forced me to leave on your page, I said that not adding 5 for the class attributes was the problem, and that rounding was what made the difference between the 12.5 that I stated and the 13 that S'drassa was seeing. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:35, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Apart from the fact that this feels as an unnecessary escalation of matters, I think rpeh is right in this case. He's free to remove posts from his talk page, and the full responsibility for doing so is his. <br /> <br /> :::::You claim that you simply intended to remove your own post, but in fact you replaced it with another post (the &quot;comment remove by author&quot; was no neutral message), changing the initial discussion. The context of the earlier posts doesn't change with the addition of newer posts, it's just the nature of the discussion that evolves. Posts are traditionally accepted as comments made at a ''specific time and conditions'' not permanent statements you can never change your mind about or elaborate on. <br /> <br /> :::::That being said, I would really like to see from both you more attempts to not have these things escalate. Not every minor detail needs to be defended if it only means the rest of community must suffer another conflict. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 11:43, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Okay, that's a fair enough assessment. I would, however, like to remove my original post since it's clearly being misunderstood, and any attempt to &quot;elaborate on&quot; it is being reverted. That seems contrary to the very point you made. If I'm not allowed to elaborate and clarify, then I should be allowed to remove it, and my entire contributions to that discussion can be as though they never happened.<br /> <br /> ::::::As for rpeh and I, I would not take it amiss if an interaction ban were enacted. I don't want our interactions to become as disruptive as his and Elliot's were, but I don't see our opinions of each other changing any time soon. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:38, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You have twice posted on my talk pages, then twice brought the same matter up on here, and now you want to ban ''me'' from interacting with ''you''????? If you're getting fed up with arguing with me, stay off my talk pages. I certainly have no interest in talking to you. Oh, and it should be &quot;rpeh and '''me'''&quot;. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, enough. Rpeh, could you please remove RobinHood70s messages from your talk page so we can get back to what we do best? This discussion serves no purpose whatsoever and while it is a bit saddening that two of the very best editors on the wiki can't get along at the moment, I hope you guys can solve it somehow - some time. I see no reason for anybody to participate further in this discussion unless they have something meaningful to say - and I believe Timenn was the last person to do that. My suggestion to you guys are as follows; stay off each others talk pages and do not participate in discussions if you can't get a grip. Try turning off your browsers instead of writing uncomfortable messages on the AN - take a deep breath, possibly a two-minute break - and look at a picture of a Khajiit or Argonian. That is what we are working with here - it is not the end of the world, it is a video game series. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Sorry, but if somebody is going to post patronising, incorrect messages on my talk page, I'm afraid they have to live with the consequences. And I, at least, have continued to edit productively despite repeated irrelevant distractions. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Moved from User_talk:Username ==<br /> <br /> seventhdigidestiny@yahoo.com I am trying to fix a spelling error of Assurabitashpi for THE ELDER SCROLLS III MORROWIND. I have the game of the year platinum eddition for Xbox. anyways the proper spelling is Ashurabitashpi but I can not change some of them. in addition to this someone keeps changing it back to Assurabitashpi but the changes I make are made I know because I check to make sure so I know that there is no problem on my end. someone from administration needs to change the parts that can not be eddited by non registered users for the Assurabitashpi to Ashurabitashpi maybe this will fix whoever is messing up my correction. I play the game all the time and I am in fact playing it right now and looking at the map on world view with the pointer on the AKA Assurnabitashpi and it is spelled Ashurnabitashpi in the game. And yes I am looking in the right place as is described by the location and everything else on the page is accurate so far when I compare it to the game I am playing so once again I am not wrong please fix it and in case you forgot the proper spelling is Ashurnabitashpi<br /> <br /> - <br /> There is a Assurnabitashpi, shrine South of Ashurnabitashpi if this is the place they are talking about then there needs to be two seperate page for both places<br /> <br /> :Now, I'm pretty sure the page is correct...I remember some kind of note on the page about a cell and door spelling discrepancy. Confirm/deny?--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 20:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::As the note on the page says, the exterior cell in which the shrine is contained is called &quot;Ashurnabitashpi&quot;. The two interior cells are called &quot;Assurnabitashpi&quot; and &quot;Assurnabitashpi, Shrine&quot;. Additionally, the double-s version appears in dialogue three times: ''&quot;Nuleno Tedas gave me directions to Urshilaku camp. The camp is due north from Maar Gan, but high ridges lie in the way. Follow Foyada Bani-Dad, a deep ravine just north of Maar Gan, northwest to the sea. A shipwreck at the seamouth of the ravine is a landmark. Swim east around the headland. Pass east through the ruins of '''Assurnabitashpi''' Shrine. Urshilaku Camp lies east of the ruins, inland in a low hollow.&quot;'',''&quot;Urshilaku camp is due north from Maar Gan, but high ridges lie in the way. From Maar Gan head east past the Silt Strider, then take a trail north to the Foyada Bani-Dad. Follow the Foyada northwest to the sea. A shipwreck at the seamouth of the ravine is a landmark. Swim east around the headland. Pass east through the ruins of '''Assurnabitashpi''' Shrine. Avoid Daedra here. They're powerful and aggressive. Urshilaku Camp lies east of the ruins, inland in a low hollow.&quot;'' and ''&quot;At the ruins of '''Assurnabitashpi''', they have an old shrine to Mehrunes Dagon. Stay far from that place -- it is cursed.&quot;'' Ashurnabitashpi does not appear at all. The paper map spells it with an h (in Daedric) but the clear weight is on the side of the double-s version. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:21, 2 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Minor question ==<br /> <br /> [[Oblivion:Easter Eggs]] is currently semi-protected and in the [[:Category:Semi Protection]] category but there is no indication of who semi-protected it in the history, and on editing the page the notice &quot;Note: This page has been locked so that only registered users can edit it. No matching items in log.&quot; is displayed at the top.<br /> <br /> This doesn't seem to be the case with other pages (such as [[Oblivion:Oblivion]]) that have been locked for a long time, so I wonder how the relevant entry for this page has gone missing? It's almost as if the entry was deleted from the database, perhaps when somebody was deleting other items? In any case, could an admin re-protect so we at least have a name on it? Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:39, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Just as an aside, this looks to be an issue with the wiki software [https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8731], where the protection level was moved when [[Oblivion:Easter eggs]] was moved to [[Oblivion:Easter Eggs]], but the record of who protected it ({{Pl|Special:Log|Nephele|type=protect&amp;user=&amp;page=Oblivion:Easter+eggs&amp;year=&amp;month=-1}}) wasn't. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 00:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: Ah, thanks. Good find. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Block Needed. ==<br /> <br /> 82.21.230.96 needs to be blocked. Please see the history of [[Shivering:Ghosts_of_the_Hill_of_Suicides]] for why.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 18:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :At the moment I don't see any evidence that a block is needed. The IP has only made one edit since being warned -- which means it's very likely that the person didn't read the warning until after that edit was made. In the hour since then, nothing has been done, so I think the warning was sufficient. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Protection requested ==<br /> <br /> Please could an admin fully-protect [[UESPWiki:Javascript/searchesInNewWindow.js|this page]] in line with previous policy on communal Javascript snippets? Thanks. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:44, 12 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Excuse Me ==<br /> <br /> Hi, I'm new to this site, and I've gotta say, it's impressive-- I normally go to a Wiki that is exclusively for TES4, and it does a fine job, but this just... blows that wiki out of the water!<br /> <br /> Anyways, I dunno if this'll get read soon or not, but I need to ask: How ''exactly'' is someone supposed to roleplay within Oblivion's universe? I understand the desire to immerse yourself into the universe, but... how can somebody do it when there aren't any other PCs to RP with?! Don't you guys think that's a bit... I dunno, bland to be RPing in the game while all you have to work with are scripted NPCs? <br /> <br /> Or maybe it's different for you guys since you all can mod your games on the PC to give yourselves new experiences, while I'm using the Xbox 360 GOTY Edition of Oblivion, and I don't have access to Xbox Live (LOOONG story) so I can't get any of the plug-ins. Anyways, if you can explain this sort of thing to me, I'd appreciate it, because I've tried a few of the things you suggested (like being a Pirate), and well... it's simply not fun RPing when you're the only PC in the game, y'know?<br /> <br /> Thanks, <br /> <br /> Billy<br /> <br /> P.S. I actually found this site when I was looking for Oblivion RPs on the Internet-- I just assumed that the RP you guys meant at first (before I read about the stuff) was on an ''online forum''-- that's the kind of RP I'm used to-- hell, I've even done an Oblivion RP on one of the forums I normally visit. It died pretty quickly though, which is a shame.<br /> <br /> :Guess you were referring to the OblivioWiki. Glad to see that you found UESP. Sorry about the mess at the OblivioWiki, but I gradually developed a dislike for Wikia and its new format. You may roleplay in the game in whichever matter you deserve. It's an open-ended game (but Morrowind provides more freedom), so you can pretty much do whatever you wish. I suggest that you play some MMO's. I don't really roleplay in games, and ''The Elder Scrolls'' has more to do with exploring unique terrains and cultures than providing a means to roleplay. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 16:46, 14 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=602678 2010-09-14T16:33:44Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for New Roleplaying System==<br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least &lt;del&gt;10-15&lt;/del&gt; 5 users using this new system at the end of the three months,<br /> :#There are &lt;del&gt;15-25&lt;/del&gt; 15 unresolved complaints and/or problems involving the system by the end of the three months (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from &lt;del&gt;15-25&lt;/del&gt; 15 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are a combination of 25 resolved and unresolved complaints and/or problems involving the system. <br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 3 before the 3 months, it's apparent that the system is too flawed to serve any further. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> '''Changes''': To address GK's excellent points, there have been some changes to the requirements. The number of users who need to be using the system is now 5; the reason behind this being that we want to know that the system is usable and not too difficult to follow. I've also changed the complaint requirement to 15 ''unresolved'' problems. A new added requirement is that there can't be a combination of 25 complaints/problems with the system: if there is that many problems, we know it isn't working. <br /> <br /> ===Votes===<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : &lt;s&gt; Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * &lt;del&gt;'''Extremely Weak Support'''&lt;/del&gt; &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** &lt;del&gt;'''Switched to Oppose'''&lt;/del&gt; &amp;ndash; Until GK's concerns are addressed. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 22:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *** '''Switched to Support''' &amp;ndash; Moving on now. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 16:33, 14 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Does WP:Snowball apply to UESP? Disclaimer: I'm not saying that it should, especially since this is the first day of voting. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::MDS: It's been used on UESP before, so I suspect it could be used in this case as well.<br /> :::Matt: Typical time is about a week, but if there are no major flaws pointed out and everybody seems to be supporting the idea, I suspect we could wrap it up before then as MDS suggests. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Thanks. I'm just making sure that the voting process doesn't end prematurely. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Admin Request''' Can I request that the message currently on top of the roleplaying pages now read- &quot;This page is temporarily locked until [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subjective Content|this discussion]] is resolved. In particular, a [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subjective Content#Proposal for New Roleplaying System|new system]] has been proposed for the roleplaying pages; anyone is free to vote on this proposal.&quot; This should make it easier for people who'd rather not read the whole discussion to know what's going on. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 02:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Sounds reasonable. I'll change the notice on the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 04:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''' - A bit worried that it will screw up, but hey, we've at least gotta give a go! :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Support'''&lt;/s&gt; Praying to Jygalag (Daedra Lord of Order) that this works out. What do we do if it doesn't though?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Get rid of the system first, then unlock everything. I guess everything will go back the way it was, unless another user proposes something else. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 21:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: Thinking it about the roleplaying pages might be more Sheogorath's sphere.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Weak Oppose&lt;/s&gt;Support''' - Most of this proposal makes perfect sense to me. My few concerns have to do with details. I think the details need to be ironed out before we implement.&lt;br&gt;'''1:''' I've [[User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/8|sandboxed]] a version of the [[ob:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] article that seems to be appropriate as this goes live. It makes a few large-scale changes, including a little bit of explanation on the new system and some links. I also trimmed the suggestions down, eliminating anything that wasn't general enough (more specific things can go on users' pages).&lt;br&gt;'''2:''' &quot;At least 10-15 users using this system&quot;? What? What if it's twelve? It should really be a set number, and though I don't like saying &quot;we have to have this many people using it&quot;, I'd rather see it at ten.&lt;br&gt;'''3:''' &quot;There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems&quot;? Again, what? What if there's twenty? On this one, though, if in three months we have fifteen ''legitimate'' complaints or issues, it's obviously not working. So, I'd go with fifteen.&lt;br&gt;'''4:''' &quot;If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with.&quot; I don't like this concept. Problems may come up that we'll be able to resolve, so I'd rather say that: if at the end of the three months, there's fifteen or more valid and legitimate issues that we don't have a solution for, then it would be time to consider other alternatives.&lt;br&gt;&lt;s&gt;If and when these details are clarified, I'll change my vote to &quot;Support&quot;.&lt;/s&gt; Since my concerns have been addressed, I fully support this proposal. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Weak Oppose'''&lt;/s&gt; Support &lt;s&gt;I agree with the points GK brought up. Also why should there be 15-20 people using it before three months for it to continue?&lt;/s&gt;Now that that's done let's move it!--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :JP possibly could have meant by three months, but even that nuber is a bit high. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::I also support GK's suggestions. I can see why the ranges were given—not to lock it down to specific numbers if we don't feel the system is working—but probably just using the smallest number should be adequate. And her last point about solutions that we can resolve is definitely a good one. Can I suggest we change the original points so we don't get a snowball effect of Opposes over a few guideline tweaks? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:08, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I don't get the &quot;What if it's twelve&quot; question. 10-15 covers 12. It also covers 11, 13, and 14. I'm probably tired and missing something obvious, though... --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:13, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Yeah, that took me a second to figure out too. She means, what if instead of being higher than 15, it's a borderline number like 12. If you have 12 with a rule like &quot;at least 10-15&quot;, did you make the requirement or not? Better to have a definitive number. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:19, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::TAO and AMM: y'all were right, the number of people was high. The reason that was a requirement is because I wanted to know that at least some users would be able to use the system without difficulty.<br /> :::::GK: the details have been officially ironed. I was hoping you would give your expert opinion. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:57, 9 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Oppose''': The high threshold was part of the original proposal and one reason why I voted to support. I object to the terms of the vote being changed after several votes have already been cast. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)&lt;/s&gt;<br /> *'''Comment''': Actually, I'm striking this vote too. I really don't like the way the issue under discussion was changed during the vote, but I'm going back to my original analysis of &quot;I don't care about this&quot;. I don't patrol existing roleplays and I won't be patrolling them in the future so I'm going to leave this to people who give a damn. I've made my concerns clear, which is all I can do. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:28, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> *'''Oppose''': I agree with what Michael has to say. [[User:Ninja Hinder|Ninja Hinder]] 22:47, 12 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Final Wrap-Up==<br /> We are almost right back to where we started with: a problem that's not getting any solution. The only difference is that we have what we're planning on doing. No one has seemed to oppose the procedure of the system, only the details of how we should test the system. The details of this &quot;test drive&quot; are currently too specific to be agreed upon, and maybe even too specific for the system to accurately succeed the test drive. The three things no one has opposed include:<br /> *The system setup,<br /> *The amount of time to give the system for testing (three months),<br /> *That the system ''does'' need testing before being our permanent solution.<br /> And for that reason, the test drive should be a whole different discussion, and preferably a discussion for another day. It's time to start taking action. After looking over the system tonight, I will make the system go live tomorrow. That includes moving the contents of my sandbox to Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas, adding the messages stated above to their appropriate page, and replacing the roleplaying page with the one set in GK's sandbox. In one month, we can check up on the system, looking for specific things like number of users using it, number of issues that have risen, etc. Then we can decide what requirements the system must meet to be permanent. I feel like if I don't do something now, we'll just keep going in circles -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 01:09, 10 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :Sounds like a plan. Can I suggest you simply wipe out the current contents of {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} and put in the message that'll appear on the various subpages. That way, if there's a mistake or we decide to change the wording in the future, we only have to change it in one place. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:36, 10 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600814 2010-09-08T22:51:21Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Switched to opposition.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Proposal for New Roleplaying System==<br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ===Votes===<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * &lt;del&gt;'''Extremely Weak Support'''&lt;/del&gt; &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** '''Switched to Oppose''' &amp;ndash; Until GK's concerns are addressed. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 22:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Does WP:Snowball apply to UESP? Disclaimer: I'm not saying that it should, especially since this is the first day of voting. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::MDS: It's been used on UESP before, so I suspect it could be used in this case as well.<br /> :::Matt: Typical time is about a week, but if there are no major flaws pointed out and everybody seems to be supporting the idea, I suspect we could wrap it up before then as MDS suggests. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Thanks. I'm just making sure that the voting process doesn't end prematurely. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Admin Request''' Can I request that the message currently on top of the roleplaying pages now read- &quot;This page is temporarily locked until [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subjective Content|this discussion]] is resolved. In particular, a [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subjective Content#Proposal for New Roleplaying System|new system]] has been proposed for the roleplaying pages; anyone is free to vote on this proposal.&quot; This should make it easier for people who'd rather not read the whole discussion to know what's going on. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 02:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Sounds reasonable. I'll change the notice on the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 04:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Support''' - A bit worried that it will screw up, but hey, we've at least gotta give a go! :) --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 08:59, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *&lt;s&gt;'''Support'''&lt;/s&gt; Praying to Jygalag (Daedra Lord of Order) that this works out. What do we do if it doesn't though?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:29, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Get rid of the system first, then unlock everything. I guess everything will go back the way it was, unless another user proposes something else. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 21:52, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: Thinking it about the roleplaying pages might be more Sheogorath's sphere.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 14:26, 7 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> *'''Weak Oppose''' - Most of this proposal makes perfect sense to me. My few concerns have to do with details. I think the details need to be ironed out before we implement.&lt;br&gt;'''1:''' I've [[User:GuildKnight/Sandbox/8|sandboxed]] a version of the [[ob:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] article that seems to be appropriate as this goes live. It makes a few large-scale changes, including a little bit of explanation on the new system and some links. I also trimmed the suggestions down, eliminating anything that wasn't general enough (more specific things can go on users' pages).&lt;br&gt;'''2:''' &quot;At least 10-15 users using this system&quot;? What? What if it's twelve? It should really be a set number, and though I don't like saying &quot;we have to have this many people using it&quot;, I'd rather see it at ten.&lt;br&gt;'''3:''' &quot;There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems&quot;? Again, what? What if there's twenty? On this one, though, if in three months we have fifteen ''legitimate'' complaints or issues, it's obviously not working. So, I'd go with fifteen.&lt;br&gt;'''4:''' &quot;If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with.&quot; I don't like this concept. Problems may come up that we'll be able to resolve, so I'd rather say that: if at the end of the three months, there's fifteen or more valid and legitimate issues that we don't have a solution for, then it would be time to consider other alternatives.&lt;br&gt;If and when these details are clarified, I'll change my vote to &quot;Support&quot;. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 18:54, 8 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> *'''Weak Oppose''' I agree with the points GK brought up. Also why should there be 15-20 people using it before three months for it to continue?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:22, 8 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :JP possibly could have meant by three months, but even that nuber is a bit high. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600156 2010-09-06T02:12:42Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Does WP:Snowball apply to UESP? Disclaimer: I'm not saying that it should, especially since this is the first day of voting. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::MDS: It's been used on UESP before, so I suspect it could be used in this case as well.<br /> :::Matt: Typical time is about a week, but if there are no major flaws pointed out and everybody seems to be supporting the idea, I suspect we could wrap it up before then as MDS suggests. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 01:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::Thanks. I'm just making sure that the voting process doesn't end prematurely. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 02:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600146 2010-09-06T01:24:06Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Expanding.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Does WP:Snowball apply to UESP? Disclaimer: I'm not saying that it should, especially since this is the first day of voting. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600145 2010-09-06T01:20:54Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **Does WP:Snowball apply to UESP? --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600144 2010-09-06T01:16:40Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Clarifying.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average, inexperienced (and sometimes stubborn) user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600143 2010-09-06T01:15:24Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ***But that's really their own problem, if they complain to that extent we'll tell them that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ****And that's why I chose &quot;weak support&quot; instead of &quot;weak oppose&quot;. I'm certain that the Patrollers will do the job granted to them, but my concern is with the average user. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:15, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' How long will this voting process go on? If the answer is two weeks I think I'll faint. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:00, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore_talk:Dwemer&diff=600142 2010-09-06T01:12:13Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* The Calling */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>==Copyright Violation==<br /> &lt;s&gt;Wikipedia does not allow verbatim copying of material from their site. They do not allow content copied verbatim to be altered, and all submissions to UESPWiki must be allowed to be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. Feel free to copy material from public domains or similar free resources, just make sure to give credit where credit is due. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 02:28, 21 June 2006 (EDT)&lt;/s&gt; Oops, I guess I am wrong here, but we still can't have stuff from Wikipedia on the site. See Nephele's comments below. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 13:30, 18 March 2007 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Actually, you are QUITE wrong. wikipedia uses &quot;GNU Free Documentation License&quot; for all content. What this means is, well,in the words of wikipedia &quot;The license Wikipedia uses grants free access to our content in the same sense as free software is licensed freely. This principle is known as copyleft. That is to say, Wikipedia content can be copied, modified, and redistributed so long as the new version grants the same freedoms to others and acknowledges the authors of the Wikipedia article used (a direct link back to the article satisfies our author credit requirement).&quot;<br /> <br /> :Since the wikipedia article is MUCH larger, and MUCH more complete, I will begin the work of bringing the wikipedia content over shortly. [[User:24.149.23.119|24.149.23.119]] 03:13, 18 March 2007 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::The situation is a bit more complicated than that, because the [[UESPWiki:Copyright and Ownership|copyright license]] used on UESPWiki is not GFDL. For just one of the many long conversations that have been triggered by this, see [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_6#Copyright/Licensing]]. The bottom line is that on UESPWiki we do not want to have content that has been copied verbatim from Wikipedia. On the other hand, if you would like to take the information from wikipedia's article and rewrite that information, that would be a welcome contribution. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:01, 18 March 2007 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::: UESP not allowing it is very different than wikipedia not allowing it ;-) [[User:24.149.23.119|24.149.23.119]] 13:09, 18 March 2007 (EDT)<br /> <br /> *I tried to fix up this page a bit, but it was very inconscice and still remains a bit such. Does every instance of &quot;dwemer&quot; have to be in bold? Also, I hate text that has two spaces between sentences. I removed the following sentence, because it has zero relevance to this article:<br /> <br /> &quot;As a result of the war, not only were the '''Dwemer''' lost, but the [[Lore:Chimer|Chimer]] were changed into the [[Lore:Dunmer|Dunmer]], the dark-skinned inhabitants of [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]].&quot;<br /> <br /> This is fully explained in articles on both the chimer and the dunmer. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 08:55, 4 October 2006 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Ithink that you don't need to have every &quot;dwemer&quot; in bold, the first instance will suffice, as is the case for most race pages. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:47, 5 October 2006 (EDT)<br /> <br /> <br /> Didn't we solve the disappearance of the dwarves in Morrowind for Arch-mage Trebonius? It doesn't go into depth about the reasons in the morrowind quest page on the UESPWiki, and I don't feel like loading up an old saved game from morrowind to remind myself. Would be a good add to this article though.<br /> <br /> == Armor ==<br /> <br /> Bamz-Amschend in Mournhold seems to disprove the theory that armor was the shells of their machines, as their are 2 Ash Piles with Dwarven Cuirasses on top of them, suggesting that the Dwemer were wearing them when they died. See the relevant comment on the [[Tribunal Talk:Bamz-Amschend|Bamz-Amschend talk page]]. Darth Cronus 12:38, 26 October 2007 (EDT)<br /> Also, can anyone source the comment? Darth Cronus 00:11, 7 November 2007 (EST)<br /> :No, but I can source a rebuttal: Read [[Lore:Chimarvamidium|Chimarvamidium]]. It's specifically a story about a person disguising themselves as a machine by wearing Dwemer armor. Dwemer armor is armor, not machine-plating. I think that's pretty well established. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:53, 7 November 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> The book's article states that they are fictous stories so the Dwemer could in fact be normal-sized--[[Special:Contributions/166.204.119.245|166.204.119.245]] 19:28, 15 December 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Dwemer armor in Morrowind and Oblivion look completely different. In Morrowind it looks almost exactly like Centurion plating. In Oblivion it actually looks like what the specters in Morrowind wear. I believe only the Oblivion version is true Dwemer armor. [[Special:Contributions/194.219.35.227|194.219.35.227]] 19:36, 18 December 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Redlink reversion ==<br /> <br /> Reverted every redlink in the article in two edits! Woot! Darth Cronus 10:36, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br /> :Removing red links is ''usually'' a good idea but not always. Most of the ones you've done there look fine, but personally I'd have left the link to the Velothi Mountains to remind people it could do with creating. I don't know enough Lore to revert so I'll leave things as they are, but it's something to think about if this is something you're going to look at in the future. --[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/sup&gt; 16:34, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br /> Works 4 me, reverting now. Darth Cronus 20:18, 4 November 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> Sorry it took so long, I had to go somewhere and couldn't find the time until just now. Darth Cronus 00:06, 7 November 2007 (EST)<br /> <br /> == The Lost Dwarves ==<br /> <br /> I moved the following text from the main article:<br /> :''There is a document In [[Lore:Morrowind|Morrowind]] that gives the most logical and probably the real reason for the disappearance of this race. It explains every event that took place that day; how [[Lore:Nerevar|Indoril Nerevar]] and his loyal friend [[Lore:Dagoth Ur|Dagoth Ur]] infiltrated the [[Lore:Red Mountain|Red Mountain]] fortress to destroy Lorkhan's Heart and ruin Kagrenac's plans of creating a new God that would serve to proclaim the supremacy of the dwarves. After a battle Nerevar was seriously wounded and weak but he and Dagoth Ur managed to kill Kagrenac and secure [[Morrowind:Keening|Keening]], [[Morrowind:Sunder|Sunder]], and [[Morrowind:Wraithguard|Wraithguard]]. When Nerevar and Dagoth Ur severed the heart using the tools, the Dwemer turned into dust because the immortality they aquired using the heart was broken and they finally died.'' <br /> <br /> :''The document is found in the Secret library of Vivec, beneath office of the watch. You can find a trap door in a corner covered with a rug, and if you unlock the door and remove the spell you can go down and then go to the other side of the door. There you'll find the library with this paper in one of the book shelves.''<br /> <br /> The text needs a lot of cleanup and revamping before belonging in the main article, and I don't have the knowledge to do it. Overall, the information needs to be incorporated into the article instead of being tacked on as a separate section. Game-specific information (where to find the document while playing Morrowind) does not belong. But a name for the document being described (and a link to it) is needed. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:50, 13 November 2007 (EST)<br /> :The document is [[Morrowind:Nerevar_at_Red_Mountain|Nerevar at Red Mountain]]. There are 2 slightly different accounts in this room, but this one is probably the one the previous poster was talking about. --[[Special:Contributions/67.187.149.187|67.187.149.187]] 05:02, 10 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Major Revamping ==<br /> <br /> I have recently re-formatted this article and made some major changes to it. Contributions are, as always, welcome. I have managed to include at least one image from, Redguard, Morrowind and Oblivion. As far as balance goes, I think we're going strong. I have also placed some relevant links from the Site Library under &quot;See Also.&quot; Under &quot;Notes,&quot; I have placed some quotes which, while not really material for the main article body, deserve a mention purely to give a more comprehensive explanation of some of the points featured. Any comments about my work up to now are welcome! --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 10:07, 19 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ::Quick input on structure: 1st. paragraph-- You might want to state that the Dwemer are one of several races with the common heritage of Mer, Dwe-mer, Alt-mer. To say they are ''the'' Mer is confusing. Then, consider rearranging the order of paragraphs, start with what defines them, their accomplishments, architecture and ''then'' get to their disappearance. Break down the Wall-of-Text with sub-headlines of that kind, so people can scan the page, navigate, and not tire their eyes. If you want, I can help you with that later, when you're done with the write-up. Overall, good article and very informative. --Cheers, [[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:32, 22 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Name of the only living Dwemer in Morrowind==<br /> <br /> I remember in the main quest for Morrowind, you had to talk to a dwarf, who was the only living dwarf left in Tamriel. I am trying to remember his name but I can't, and I know that the part that you get to him in the MQ was pretty deep in and I don't want to play through that far just to get a name. Could someone help me out?<br /> <br /> [[User:68.123.0.251|68.123.0.251]] 23:16, 23 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> :Did you actually try reading the article first? Because the article talks about &quot;[[Morrowind:Yagrum Bagarn|Yagrum Bagarn]], the last living Dwemer.&quot; If you had any doubt whether it's the same character, you could try following the link. You really can find out your answers a lot faster if you read the information that's already provided on the site. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:42, 23 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Image ==<br /> <br /> I was wondering if an image of one of the Dwemer spectres seen in Morrowind should be included on the page (see [[Morrowind:Undead#Dwarven Spectre|here]]). The image shows vaguely what the Dwemer looked like before they disappeared.--[[User:Willyhead|Willyhead]]&lt;sup&gt;/[[User talk:Willyhead|t]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:08, 26 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> :Good idea, but the images here already are too good to be removed, and with them on the page there really isn't enough space for another one. If someone could take a really clear, bright and close-up screenshot of a pasive Dwarven Spectre, then maybe we could include it, with another paragrapth referring to it for text padding and spacing. --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:15, 26 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> ::Maybe [http://www.scharesoft.de/joomla/almanach/index.php/Bild:Dwemer.jpg this] one uploaded by [[:User:Deepfighter]] could find a place. I believe the drawing is concept art from the development of TES 3, but you should ask him to be sure. --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:46, 26 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> :::Yeah, that's conecpt art. It's not particularly clear though, and when you compare it to the three other images we have already, I think it's just not right. I have an idea though. If we are going to include a Dwarven Spectre at all, then it should be inside a Dwemer ruin with pletnty of light. Now, there are basically no Dwemer ruins with an acceptable level of light for this image, so how about creating one in the CS? Then you could conviniently include some Dwemer constructs in the background or something else scenic. Anyway, the problem is, images taken from the CS are never of high quality, as you can plainly see on the Morrowind:Undead page. The Spectre there is hazed and foggy, whereas in the ruins they are much clearer. Maybe you could COC yourself into the created cell and find a good spot to image-capture. What do you think? --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 07:15, 27 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> ::::Hmm, what about taking close-up SC of Dwemer statues, [[Morrowind:Arkngthunch-Sturdumz|like here]], in front of some ruins in MW. I feel that is more informative then a fuzzy Dwarven Ghost. Any photographer willing to get some SC of those, and some of the apparatuses, like a ballista? --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:36, 30 April 2008 (EDT)<br /> :::::Maybe we could collage all three ideas together, much like the schematics at the top of the page have been done. What do you think? --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:12, 2 May 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == What's going on? ==<br /> <br /> Check [http://dwemerstudies.wiwiland.net/stars.html this] out. It says the chart is originally from UESP. Where is it? I was thinking of adding an astronomy section to the article, and this chart would come in useful. What's the story behind it? --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:46, 16 May 2008 (EDT)<br /> :How I read it is that they took an UESP table and made a graphical representation of it. You'd have to ask for permission, or redo the graphics. --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:53, 16 May 2008 (EDT)<br /> ::Well, that chart would be extremely useful if I add the aforementioned section. I'll send them an e-mail. --[[User:HMSVictory|HMSVictory]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User Talk:HMSVictory|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 09:03, 17 May 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Mistake ==<br /> <br /> Is erred a word or deweris in the refernces article the last dwarve says it<br /> :To err means to make an error, so erred is a real word.--[[User:Dogmantra|Dogmantra]] 13:21, 5 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == heightened to Numidium ==<br /> <br /> Is this unclear wording or a sneaky inclusion of the real story? (That's right boys and girls, we do know what happened to the Dwarves)<br /> Oh, and I question the suggestion that vivec meant anything by capitalizing Reason and Logic.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 23:15, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> :It is sneaky, well, not anymore since you highlighted it ;) Pending the community discussion, a quote from [http://www.imperial-library.info/interviews/skelm.shtml Skeleton Man's Interview] would illustrate the point nicely. But even with the sources we have, i think the sentence as it stands can be defended. <br /> <br /> :''&quot;Do not think as others do that Kagrenac created the Anumidum for petty motivations, such as a refutation of the gods. Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater.&quot;'' --[[User:Benould|Benould]]&lt;sup&gt;•[[User_Talk:Benould|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Benould|C]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:42, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> Well get to writing that Disappearance of the Dwarves article, then. [[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 23:52, 4 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> ==Dway-mare==<br /> I think this is very old lore. Notice that the same forum post lists other pronunciations as Doon-Mare and Bow-Mare when both games opt for Done-mur and Boz-mur. True, it's the only evidence we have, but maybe we could hit it later on in the article, because Dway-mare sounds icky. [[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 14:32, 8 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> :Another way to check the pronunciation is from Oblivion's dialogues, although as far as I can tell, there is only one dialogue that mentions the Dwemer: &quot;Who now knows the tale of how this Dwemer hammer came to embody the power of one of their most bitter foes?&quot; said by Martin if you give up Volendrung for the [[Oblivion:Blood of the Daedra|Blood of the Daedra]] quest. To the extent that the voice actors were given feedback on pronunciation, that is. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:22, 9 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> The voice actors were given bollocks for direction, but it's worth looking at anyways. Anyone got an unpacked .bsa? But how is Malacath an enemy of the Dwemer? The Dwemer predate him.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 19:59, 9 August 2008 (EDT)<br /> :Azura calls them dwee-mur in her monologue at the end of Tribunal, as well. --[[Special:Contributions/67.187.149.187|67.187.149.187]] 23:08, 3 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Yup, that's right. Since Azura is considered quite profilic for Morrowind (not just a loose VA), I think we should at least add that pronounciation as well. The sources can help readers decide for themselves. I'll try to look up the precise dialogue later, so it can be added as source. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 08:38, 4 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> I found it. I must have misremembered it as being from Tribunal. It's actually from the ending cinematic for vanilla Morrowind, after you finish the main quest. Here it is on Youtube for easy reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeeIOra-JKQ<br /> &quot;The doomed dwee-mur's folly,&quot; as she says it. --[[Special:Contributions/67.187.149.187|67.187.149.187]] 22:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> :::I should point out that the Dway-mare pronunciation comes from a very old dev forum post, not even an in-character document. It is easily overridden if it goes against voice actors and fan consensus. And words can be corrupted over time.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 17:02, 17 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::So it's likely to be a post before the dialogue for Morrowind was recorded? Since the pronounciation hasn't deviated since then (as is the case with Daedra, for example) and Elliot has already added the IPA pronounciation, I think the matter is settled. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 08:44, 18 September 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Clean-up ==<br /> <br /> When reading the article I noticed that some of the information in the article is somewhat &quot;out of place&quot; and should be organized some more. In particular, the second paragraph in the section &quot;Architecture&quot;. Most, if not all of the information in this sectino needs to be moved as it is completely irrevalant to the section header. I started to work on this myself, however I decided to ask for the advice or abilities of a veteran UESP wiki-er. You can see this in the history logs where I began a transformation, then decided to revert my edit back to the previous version. Thanks in advance! [[User:Adoring Fan|Adoring Fan]] 00:05, 10 September 2008 (EDT)<br /> <br /> == Yagrum ==<br /> <br /> Someone should add a pic of a still LIVING Dwemer (I'm too lazy). If you don't have Morrowind (like me (cd was shreaded)) why bother. It would be nice to see an actual Dwemer here though.<br /> <br /> The problem with a picture of Yagrum is that he has Corprus and is bloated and disfigured, so he doesn't really look like a Dwemer would have. We can't have people getting confused and thinking all Dwemer were, fat, bloated, and walked around on mechanical legs. [[Special:Contributions/86.138.86.141|86.138.86.141]] 18:18, 5 November 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==Theory==<br /> I have a personal opinion about what had happened to the Dwemer race after the War of the First Council. Maybe, as a result of the [[Lore:Battle of Red Mountain|Battle of Red Mountain]], Dagoth UR made the [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]] become the Ash Slaves, zombies, and so forth. Maybe Sotha Sil went into hiding, and decided to create the clockwork city for the [[Lore:Dwemer|Dwemer]]? {{unsigned|Darkly|03:34, 30 June 2009 (UTC)}}<br /> <br /> :The problem is that it is all speculation. There is little enough evidence, and some even contradicts this. Take for example the Dwemer remains you can see in [[Tribunal:Bamz-Amschend|Bamz-Amschend]], which indicate a more sudden departure. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 8px; font-style: italic;&quot;&gt; &amp;lt; &lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 10px;&quot;&gt;[[User_talk:Timenn|talk]]&lt;/span&gt; &amp;gt; &lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 30 June 2009 (UTC)<br /> ::Dagoth Ur did not reappear as a god until years after the disappearance. Bamz-Amschend reveals that the Dwemer there were burned to ash, while an examination of their philosophy and comments by scholars like Xal reveals the purpose of Numidium and some idea of their final fate.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 16:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Dwarven Spectres ==<br /> <br /> If the Dwemer disappeared from the face of Mundus after the battle of Red Mountain, how are there ghosts of the dwarves roaming around the ruins? In fact, how did the Dwemer resurrect themselves as spectres in the first place?{{unsigned|Remorse1994|20:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)}}<br /> <br /> :By dying in the War of the First Council before their extinction.[[Special:Contributions/71.244.117.159|71.244.117.159]] 00:08, 23 August 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::But they weren't necromancers or anything, so they shouldn't just come back from the dead at their own accord{{Unsigned|Remorse1994|11:03, 23 August 2009}}<br /> :::Ghosts are not necessarily the work of necromancy.[[Special:Contributions/71.244.117.159|71.244.117.159]] 14:13, 23 August 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ==removed historical paragraph==<br /> Here it is, see edit summary.<br /> <br /> All though [[lore:Yagrum Bagarn|Yagrum Bagarn]] does not even know what happen to the dwemer,what did happen was this.<br /> The Dwemer where diging in the Red Mountain region when they come across the heart of lorkhan,they used the tools Sunder and Keening to make themselvs immortal.Nerevar was a friend of dwemer king dumac dwarf-orc.Vivec wanted nerevar to start war with the dwemer but he said no,so when dagoth-ur(still good) found out dwarf kagrenac was useing the heart the build a new god nerevar went and asked there king if it were true and he said no(the rest kept it a secret from there king).So nerevar asked azura if it were true and she said it was,so the chimer and the dwemer were at war.In the war dagoth-ur killed kagrenac and took the tools,azura told Dagoth-Ur and Nerevar how to use the tools take away the dwarf's connection to the heart and all there year's caght up with them and they turned to dust and at that second the dwemer were gone.[[Special:Contributions/132.162.67.58|132.162.67.58]] 01:18, 31 August 2009 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Featured Article ==<br /> <br /> I would really like to see this as a featured article, and I'm just speculating about what there is left to improve. There is certainly plenty of clear, concise information here, with pictures from multiple games to boot. The article covers every aspect of the subject that has reliable information avaiable, and includes extensive book links and references, as well as some excellent external links. The point about &quot;proper refs&quot; doesn't make much sense to me, but aside from that is there anything here that needs obvious improvement? I really like this article and enjoyed working on it back in the day, and would be happy to further improve it according to any suggestions you may have. -[[User:Itachi|Itachi]] 20:55, 12 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : The cleanup dates from [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Lore:Dwemer&amp;diff=next&amp;oldid=344557 this] edit. The editor in question had something of a habit of leaving obscure &quot;cleanup&quot; or &quot;incomplete&quot; tags...<br /> : In this case, I think it's pretty clear though. At the moment, the references quote huge chunks of text, which isn't what's supposed to happen. Compare to the existing FA [[Lore:Black Marsh]], which includes ''relevant'' quotes in the body text and puts the source in the reference.<br /> : I think there are a couple of other issues with the article too. First, a source for the pronunciation would be good. Second, there are multiple spelling issues - &quot;worshipers&quot; should be spelled with one &quot;p&quot; here. Third, the Language section is very poor - links to known books in Dwemeris would help, and I'm sure other links could be found.<br /> : That's a very quick glance... I'm sure there are more issues. In other words, it's a good article but I wouldn't support it for FA status at the moment. –[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&amp;nbsp;&lt;small&gt;&lt;small&gt;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/small&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 00:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::OK, thanks for the thoughts. I'll see what I can do about it. -[[User:Itachi|Itachi]] 09:00, 13 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::'Worshiper' is the American spelling. Gets me every time, too. The only source for the pronunciation is an archived dev forum conversation from the Redguard era which conflicts with in-game voice files anyway. The only source for info on Dwemeris I am aware of is Hanging Gardens, and there are no books in Dwemeris except for unreadable glyphs or maybe some old Redguard puzzle clues. I'll look at the ref density.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 23:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Well some guide to the pronounciation from an actual developer is better than just speculation from the fans, even if it may be obsolete. I've never heard any in-game voices use the word &quot;Dwemer.&quot; In Oblivion, &quot;Dwarves&quot; prevails completely, which makes sense seeing as that is the Imperial usage. As for the refs, since this is a lore article, refs are much more significant than in game-specific articles. People can easily verify information themselves in the games they own, but when information comes from multiple games and developer sources, it's more important to know exactly where we are getting the information from, so you can make your own judgements and interpretations. The Imperial Library is usually a trustworthy source, as they obtain most of their information from the developers themselves, which is why their pages on TES Lore are so much more detailed than ours - we haven't had the same access to developers, not the same manpower since 1995.<br /> <br /> ::::I think this article is certainly getting close to meeting the criteria of a Featured Article, but of course there's always room for improvement. -[[User:Itachi|Itachi]] 09:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Outer Realms? ==<br /> <br /> When talking about Yagrum Bagarn, the article states that existence is owed to the fact that he was in the “Outer Realms” when the Dwemer extinction occurred. However, I can't find any information defining exactly what the &quot;Outer Realms&quot; are. Is this known information? I assume that it's refering to either planes of oblivion or perhaps simply a distant land such as Yokuda or Aldmeris, but I could be wrong...<br /> <br /> Can anyone tell me whether or not this is the case? ~ [[User:Eldraris Nerethi|Eldraris Nerethi]] 16:00, 1 April 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :AS far as I remember, the Outer Realms are never defined, nor does Yagrum's explanantion go any further than this. The Dwemer's extinction wouldn't be much of a mystery if everything about it was explained, but it's a pity this particular term remains undefined. This is just one of many unexplained conecpts in TES Lore that is left for the player to interpret. --[[User:Itachi|Itachi]] 09:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Although my knowledge of Lore is pretty limited, I'd suppose he was in Oblivion or some other Daedric plane. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] &lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:41, 2 April 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == Eruption? ==<br /> <br /> Since in the Infernal City an eruption of Red Mountain caused most or all of the people on Vvardenfel to be transported to Oblivion (planes not game) could the Dwemer have vanished as a result of an earlier eruption?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 23:48, 16 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> :I think it was just Sul and Vuhon who were transported to an Oblivion realm due to the imense amount of magicka released within the Ministry. Most of the rest of Vvardenfel was simply wiped away by the eruption. That's how I read it, at least. [[User:Dlarsh|Dlarsh]]&lt;sup&gt;([[User_talk:Dlarsh|T]],[[Special:Contributions/Dlarsh|C]])&lt;/sup&gt; 02:26, 17 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Ah. I need to read the book before coming up with theories next time. Lore is nice but not quite the same.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 16:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> == The Calling ==<br /> <br /> The article mentions &quot;the Calling&quot;, which is an ability the Dwemer possess as evidenced in Chimarvamidium. As it is, the article states that the book implies it is a form of telepathy. I have to disagree with that; when I read Chimarvamidium, I thought that it was talking about a radio signal. I mean, when you look at the Dwemer race's technological advancements (compared to any other race) the notion of them being able to send basic radio signals is much more in line with what we know about them than the idea they possessed a race-wide mental link. We also know that whatever energy source powered the Dwemer's automatons was transmitted remotely. Granted that it is possible they used magic, but again, that seems rather un-Dwemer. I'm going to add the possibility of the Calling being a radio signal, but I'll leave in the bit about telepathy because after all, we do not know for certain. [[User:Flag-Waving American Patriot|Flag-Waving American Patriot]] 12:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'll grant you that the Dwemer had an antipathy towards magic, but telepathy isn't necessarily magic. The note at the bottom of the book page suggests that the Psijic Order had the same ability, which implies it's a discipline that can be learned, and certainly excludes a built-in technological solution. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 15:57, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: From the in-game book's author's perspective yes, whatever the Dwemer did from inside Chimarvamidium might have the same results as what the Psijic Order's power. But to the average person in Tamriel, any kind of remote communication would be perceived as un-natural, magic, or psychic in nature; they would never even begin to think of a technology capable of it. I don't think it's fair to say that it excludes a technological solution since there is no definitive statement that says whatever the Dwemer had was THE SAME power that the Psijics had, it only says the powers-in-question had the same RESULTS. And the Psijics aren't exactly the most explained group either. I'm not going to make a case for a group of Psijics using CB radio sets here, but remember that there is nothing concrete about that power either. Since there are no CONCRETE FACTS to support either case, I think it's only fair that both options are included. [[User:Flag-Waving American Patriot|Flag-Waving American Patriot]] 23:59, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I think the Dwemer's &quot;antipathy&quot; between magic is a misconception. I think that the Dwemer most likely combined magic and technology. As seen by Wraithguard, Sunder, and Keening, the Dwemer practiced enchantment, which is the art of embedding magic in a material possession. The Dwemer were also said to have created enchantments around Lorkhan's Heart. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 01:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600137 2010-09-06T00:55:22Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Damn typos.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people will believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600136 2010-09-06T00:54:37Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ typo.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some of the work, but that's simply not possible right now.<br /> :::::::Reading through the rest of this discussion, the only thing on which I have a real opinion is that I think the Glitches/Proposed page has been a failure, for the same basic reasons already detailed by Timenn and others. <br /> :::::::If the community desperately wants to make some type of immediate change, it seems to me that implementing Arch-Mage Matt's versions of the pages then locking them is the most viable short-term solution. In addition, I'd suggest putting a notice on the RP page telling editors who have contributions to start writing up their ideas on their own user page (or a subpage) -- or to copy an existing idea to their user page if they would like to modify it. Giving editors some options should limit the amount of angry backlash, plus it may result in some progress towards userfying the content. It's not a long-term solution -- maintaining the RP page should not be turned into an admin responsibility -- but it helps with some of the problems. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:46, 19 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::::::While that would give an excuse to revert any edits we wouldn't want to clean up - just like the sic tags on pages people (Especially anonymous users, who don't have userpages) would still largely ignore notices like that, I'd think.<br /> ::::::::And I don't really think the proposed pages would go over so badly -- doing some digging- I see that the Glitches/Proposed pages came out in 2006, while the patroller group came out in 2007, and it only really became official and structured several months later. Now, however, with several patrollers monitering the Recent changes, It seems like we might be able to handle it.<br /> ::::::::Another Idea would be for the Proposed page to be userfied itself, so nothing is made official and the user it goes under can manage it better. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:37, 20 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Okay, I think this discussion is long enough by now - and Nephele's reply gives the impression that the community overall supports the idea. Once again, I want to point out that it is '''not''' necessarily a permanent solution, merely a way to deal with the problem here and now - and maybe later, when Neph gets more free time, we can make the transition to userspace. Bad, unneeded edits are being made each and every day to the RP pages, so lets try this one: Serious objections can be made '''until this friday''' and then the following will happen:<br /> * Matt adds all his work to the pages and clean them up. Some patrollers and admins will proofread them (hard task, but hey, its our job) and give them the patrolled stamp.<br /> * An admin '''locks''' ALL RP pages (excluding the talk pages for now) and adds a notice that explains why the page is locked. The notice will also link people to:<br /> * The newly made Roleplaying/Proposed page that will now function as the ONLY way for new RP ideas. <br /> Friday, people. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : As long as it's a temporary fix, I'll support this. I think everybody agrees that a /Proposed page isn't going to work in the long term, and I agree that admins shouldn't be left with having to maintain the RP pages. I'd prefer to see a definite date to move onto whatever next stage people want to head towards, because I'm worried this might end up becoming ''de facto'' permanent, but given the appalling quality of recent edits, I'll put up with almost anything as a stop-gap. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::My one question would be why even create a Roleplaying/Proposed page? Why not just tell users to put any &quot;proposed&quot; RPs on their user pages? If there's general agreement that we want to move RPs to user pages, it seems more logical to start putting the content there instead of creating a page that many people think is a mistake and everyone agrees we don't want in the long term. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I agree with Nephele's point, let's just tell users to start putting them in User space and adding a [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]] tag to it. That way, we can find them easily if we decide to do anything further with them, and they're out of the way in User space in the mean time. Apart from that, I support Krusty's idea completely. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 15:54, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::sorry bout butting in but i would like to say that i agree with robin and nephele, if you're gonna strat something, start it now--&lt;font color=magenta&gt;[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]]&lt;/font&gt; 18:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::Krusty, I'll tell you now that I copy-and-pasted (I think) every article into Microsoft Word for a spellcheck, so you don't need to check for that. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}We should still go over it, though, as spell-checkers and even grammar-checkers aren't perfect, as ewe can see. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : My reason for the Proposed-page was to give creative roleplayers a page where they could write down their ideas, nothing more. But I'll agree with Neph and RH70 that the other solution is even better, especially if we, at some point, move the RP pages into userspace. But then I hope one of you two (Neph or RH) will write an appropriate notice to put on top of the pages. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 20:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::What kind of notice are you thinking of, and for which pages? Just something that informs users that Roleplaying pages should now be created in User space? &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::Yep, something like that; a friendly message informing roleplayers that we have closed the pages due to heavy traffic (or whatever works best) and that new ideas can be created in the [[:Category:Roleplaying Ideas]], on their own userpage, on the Proposed-page - or whatever we decide. It would probably be a good idea to aim it towards Nephele's upcoming userspace-thingy, so maybe she has a good idea for a notice? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Wow, can't believe I did that. Thanks for fixing the question location! &lt;blush&gt; The message should be easy enough...I think a simple {{tl|Message}} template should be sufficient. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::Okay, I've created {{tl|RPtoUserspace}} as a first stab at a banner for the pages. If we want, once the pages are deleted, we can modify it a bit and leave it in place as the entire content of Oblivion:Roleplaying. Obviously, the text still needs work, and we need to figure out how exactly we'll be indicating which articles have been adopted and which haven't. In the message text, I've tentatively suggested simply creating a list of what's been adopted, then an Administrator can either delete the entry from the appropriate RP page or list it as &quot;(Adopted)&quot;. The latter has the benefit that multiple users can adopt the same idea and take it in a different direction. I'm not convinced this is the best way to handle it, but the only other way I could think of to deal with adoptions was to ''not'' lock the pages and let users just do the work themselves, reverting all edits that aren't adoption-related. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:45, 27 August 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::::The template looks good. The problem is that I think this would create a new subpage which wasn't really the proposal before if I remember correctly (see Nephele's page under roleplaying tests). Not that I have a problem with it but I just thought I should make sure that this was actually what the pseudo-consensus from before was.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 22:52, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::You're right, the original had been for just a single page. I've changed the template to match that proposal, including removing the instructions for the category, as I think Nephele's sub-categories created by the template make a lot more sense. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:56, 27 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ===Must-Have Mods===<br /> Okay, I've userfied this page now. Yes, I blanked over 1/2 the page, but I believe there was consensus for this change here. Let me know if you have problems with this new system, and please create your own mods pages - things are looking a little sparse at the moment! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 17:02, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :My favorite types of mods are Companion Mods - I can name a few good ones. (Great ones, actually.) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 17:20, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Just as a side-point to the Must-Have Mods, do we want a User Mods Page category (or whatever you want to call it)? Or would that just end up being essentially a duplication of the page? I'm a big fan of using Categories for things like this, but there are certainly times when it's just redundant. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 06:01, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I would have thought it would make navigating a lot easier, so I am in favour of such a category being created. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:49, 11 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{Showhide/End}}<br /> === Wrap-up ===<br /> Just resurrecting this thread. Did we want to put the banner in place so that users know what's going on and can stop suggesting ideas on talk pages? ;) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:10, 2 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> : Hmm. Two things: I think that we can move to semi-protection - the last three proposed sections were started by IPs and I'd like to start adopting things now. Also what are the new guidelines for roleplaying? For example: Are we allowing things from non-ES sources now? What about things that require the console? It seems like it's going to be a bit harder to regulate now - especially without editing other peoples pages. (We may actually have to relax that rule a bit; if we put content on userpages we still have to be able to fix spelling and grammar since this is still going to be part of our public image).--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:30, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::I removed all non-ES related content, Ninja, Geisha, etc. I don't like those things, but it's up to everyone. I also refused to do the Ruler page on the grounds that only two of the suggestions could be done without the console. Only 1/3 of the people reading have the PC, so it wouldn't be good for them to skip over half the articles that require the computer. And there are still confirmed users wanting to edit the pages. <br /> :: And I yet again bring up the fact that the Ruler page remained untouched. I'd like to propose it's deletion, but it is up to everyone.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:37, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: But now that people can choose to skip it since it's on different pages, why shouldn't we just make a couple of subcategorys and have a special template to add PC only or non-ES related content to those?--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 19:44, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I can accept that PC content may be included, (It's not ''as'' bad as other things,) and I left the occsasional mod reccomendation there, but still things like Ninja and Geisha and the like seem just silly for ''Oblivion'' RP suggestions.<br /> <br /> :::: Given that these are going into User space, I see no reason to &quot;forbid&quot; any type of roleplay. A good set of categories would definitely be useful, though, like those requiring mods or console use. I don't think too many people would complain if you added or removed categories appropriate to that type of page. And yeah, semi-protection might be the way to go here, and people can just cut &amp; paste anything they want to keep/adopt. It might be hard for beginners to find the lost content, but if anybody mentions it, there are lots of us to help them recover the content before it gets deleted. (Not to mention, an Admin can alway undelete and userfy if necessary.) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 20:31, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> ::::: I'm going to start a new discussion on the CP about what exactly we should do as far as editing other peoples pages to fix the content on them - it seems like it's a big enough thing that it deserves to not be in a discussion that most people seem to have been ignoring.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 20:39, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: There's no need for a separate discussion - this is already the CP - it's just a subpage. It's listed in the &quot;Active Discussions&quot; section so people should be able to find it.<br /> :::::: But this is the thing I still don't understand. If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?<br /> :::::: I've said since the start that I don't understand exactly what is being proposed, and we're now in a &quot;Wrap-up&quot; section, and I ''still'' don't understand. I don't think I'm being particularly thick here - I just think there's an awful lot of hand-waving going on. As a patroller, I need to know exactly what is being suggested here. At the moment, I don't think anybody has any clear idea. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 20:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 1)====<br /> {{od}} My understanding, which may or may not match anybody else's, is that each user would be free to keep their own version and personalize it to their tastes, just like the various Mods lists. Assuming that that's the case, then the questions about editing become fairly moot. It's not unusual to correct faulty categories in User space and do other site-maintenance edits, but apart from that, editing is forbidden unless specifically stated otherwise. If I've understood Nephele's template correctly, it'll allow the same article to be categorized in the same category multiple times with different names, thus allowing the Roleplaying category to contain Paladin, Ninja, and Tax Lawyer entries even though they're just sections of the same page. That said, there's no reason I can think of that they couldn't be on subpages as well. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:06, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : Modeling it after the Must-Have Mods would probably be as good as we can do now. (Additions, though, we can't delete those that are there now, after what I did! :) -) And that could also mean while keeping the others as they are, we usefy the Ruler page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:11, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: Okay, but I would point out that most edits to the RP sections are people making tweaks rather than full additions. People add things like another place to live, another weapon to use, a different skill to prioritize, a different way of living. Both replies so far would seem to suggest that such edits will no longer be allowed - that's certainly how I understand things. What happens in such cases? Do we simply say &quot;Tough - the other guy got there first and we're not interested in what you think&quot; or &quot;Copy the whole section from that guy's page to your own and add your suggestion there, then add a link to the central page&quot;?<br /> :: The comparison to Recommended mods (it's been merged now!) doesn't work. The mods I list on my [[User:Rpeh/Mods|mods]] page are the ones I use, and nobody can possibly give me a more accurate or useful list of the mods I use than me. With roleplaying, anybody might have an idea that would improve the page (deletion would be my favourite)<br /> :: I'm sorry if this comes across as just being difficult, but I honestly don't see how this works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:27, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I understand your point completely, and I think that's just the price we have to pay for Userfying the pages. Instead of tweaks to the pages, we'll get suggestions on the talk pages instead. At least, that's what I would see happening. I could also see a system where edits are allowed freely, but the maintaining user is the final arbiter. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 21:35, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: In which case, I have to ask... why are we doing this? Instead of a set of OB:Roleplaying/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore, we end up with User:Whoever/Whatever pages that all the patrollers ignore. Just like a /Proposed page, this is moving the problem somewhere else - it isn't going to solve it.<br /> :::: I hate to say it, but the only option I can see really working is to delete the whole damn lot. Apologies to AMM, and to GuildKnight before him, because I know both of them spent a lot of time trying to fix this, but I don't see how we can make this work without causing more problems than we solve. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:42, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I'd rather useryfy them... for the obvious reason. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:46, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: (e/c) This is exactly why I suggested a Roleplaying/Proposed page in the first place. I never really understood the Userspace thing either, but figured that somebody else did - if moving it into a different namespace will give us the exact same amount of work as before, then there is absolutely no reason to do it. For now, I simply suggest that we keep the pages locked - we have had 4 or 5 edits to the RP talk pages since the big shutdown and that is a LOT less than before - and no editors changing &quot;Alteration&quot; to &quot;Speechcraft&quot; and that sort of thing. And no, we should definitely not make the pages semi-protected at this point. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 21:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: I don't think a /Proposed page works either - we've seen what happens over at [[Oblivion:Glitches]]. The full protection has worked so far because I think at least ''some'' people have read the warnings at the top of the RP pages, but as soon as you say &quot;Post to the /Proposed page instead&quot; with a handy link, we'll get the usual dross appearing.<br /> ::::::: It won't ever be as bad as Glitches, I suspect, because it's too easy to say &quot;it hapened to me to i was waking down some rode&quot; etc on Glitches but less easy to say &quot;i think marades shoud liv at becclehorn castle cos its cool and you coud pretend to fite enemey's and such&quot;. At least the latter requires some thought.<br /> ::::::: Can we not simply dump this turd on the Forums? Create a Roleplaying forum (for all I know there already is one) and use [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Soft_redirect soft redirects] to send people there? Forums are designed to have badly-written, ill-informed suggestions dribbled on them, but the only wikis that manage that successfully are Conservapedia and ED. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:08, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> {{od}} My original goal with the Roleplaying/Proposed page was to limit edits made to the entire Roleplaying section and only allow RPers to edit one page. My hope was that such a change would make life easier for patrollers and slow down the high-annoyance edits. While you are definitely right about the heavy traffic such a page would get, I'm pretty convinced that it will make people think (at least a bit) before editing, knowing that their RP idea has to be of a ceratin standard to fit this wiki. I'm also convinced that the very reason that the Glitches/Proposed page is a failure is the very fact that the Glitches page is semi-protected &quot;only&quot;. It is not incredibly hard to make an account, even if your ideas are bad and your glitches hopeless. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 22:38, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :I'm not trying to support Userfying them (frankly, I'm at about as much a loss as anybody else on the best way to handle them), but I think the intended benefit of Userfying was that they could be treated like any other User page: Patrollers simply check to make sure that there's nothing grossly inappropriate, then patrol them and let the maintaining user worry about upkeep. As already pointed out, there are some definite downsides to the approach, but it ''would'' take a lot of RP work and sometimes-difficult judgement calls off the Patrollers, I think. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 22:49, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Why? If a user decides to put suggestion on their own page, it is their own problem then. Anyone can just check it, like you said, make sure it's appropriate, then move on. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:55, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, I'm willing to listen to any suggestion right now. Please can you give us your answers to the questions I asked above (If people create a Paladin roleplay (for instance), can anybody edit it? Can they add but not change? Can they not edit it at all? Do people have to create their own version? How do subpages get added to the central articles?)<br /> ::: Let me be clear here: I do not intend in any way to be dogmatic on this issue. I'm fully aware I have a reputation for arguing but in this case, I'm only trying to understand what will happen and to point out what I consider to be problems with the various suggestions. I will support any suggestion that makes sense and that doesn't force either patrollers or admins to spend too much time fixing edits. At the moment, I think Krusty's suggestion would work best (although deletion would work better!) because I haven't seen answers to the questions I've asked: questions that will ''need'' to be answered when the proposed system goes live. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:16, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: As an example, it could go like this:<br /> <br /> There are many ways to roleplay in Oblivion... blah blah blah... these are some suggestions on what to do. (Links to old RP pages)<br /> <br /> Here are some users who have some suggested ideas for roleplaying. Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.<br /> <br /> User:Josh/RP-Suggestions<br /> <br /> It says... palidons r cool they do good stuff they are warriors be a nord to be a palidin. were steel armor and do nice stuff do everything but the DB and TG. get 1000 fame, downlowd mods &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt; and &lt;nowiki&gt;[[Example]]&lt;/nowiki&gt;. they will make bieng a palidin cool.<br /> <br /> No matter how much we hate this, Josh here has a right to write whatever he wants, as it is under his page. We just need to listen to that note saying ''Note that some of these suggestions may not be as high quality as the official ones.'' --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:32, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : Right... but that doesn't answer the questions. Can I fix the spelling? Can I change the recommended race? Can I edit that at all? If not, do I have to copy and paste all that to my own /Paladin page and put in what I think should happen? If so, do we link to both versions of the Paladin page? Do we really want ten different versions of how to be a paladin? Do we really want to have to patrol ten different pages describing how to be a paladin? I'm still not seeing answers here. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: {{ec}} Due to the EC, I'll respond to rpeh first, since it's short: I don't care for the idea myself, but yes, the ten-Paladins scenario is what I believe ''could'' happen with the Userfied solution. Still, patrolling User space is pretty quick when you don't need to worry about making corrections.<br /> <br /> :: Matt: I'm not entirely sure what the &quot;Why?&quot; part of your question was in reference to. If it was to why I'm not trying to support Userfying, don't take that too harshly—to-date, that's the option I like best, but as rpeh and others have pointed out, it's not without questions that would need to be resolved. Like you, I agree that once a user adopts it, it's their page, but I can foresee others wanting to try to contribute and feeling they don't have a way to short of adopting the whole section.<br /> <br /> :: As for some of the other ideas, as much as I'd personally love to delete the Roleplaying pages, I don't think I can support that option, since I've come to realize that a number of people are clearly making use of them. I'm not a fan of the Proposed option, though I can see some benefit in that. And similarly, the jury's out on rpeh's forums idea for me as well—I'm not sure how the Forums people would like us dumping our problem on them, and I'm sure the ideas would lose most or all of the formatting...but at the same time, I've seen a number of roleplaying forum threads for other games that have worked out quite well, and it does seem to me to be a bit more appropriate there, since it allows people to comment on or contribute to the original idea without altering it directly. So you can see why I'm a little lost as to the best option here.<br /> <br /> ::In the end, my vote would be to Userfy, but you won't hear a peep outta me if we move them to Forums, and only a tiny little &quot;I don't care for it&quot; for Proposed. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 3 September 2010 (UTC) <br /> <br /> :::One of the things Nephele intended to happen at the same time this was to create &quot;Userspace Patrollers&quot;. Basically they have the right to check edits in userspace but nowhere else; it was intended to work with the new option to hide namespaces in Recent Changes and take some of the load off the gamespace patrollers. They were also intended to be responsible for userfied content.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:00, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::Let's say if Josh decides to allow others to edit his page. It would not be your ''duty'' to change it, you can change it if you want to. If Josh doesn't allow others to edit his page, that is why his page is called User:Josh/RP-Suggestions not User:Josh/Paladin. If anyone else wants to have a paladin, they'd make, again, a /Rp-Suggestions not /Paladin. It'd be less of a clutter that way, as they could put other things in it.<br /> <br /> ::::And if Josh allowed people to edit his page, obviously, people cannot remove, change extremely (Reword his entire article) or add other suggestions.<br /> <br /> ::::And I'm sure that mods like Josjie and Leliah (The two I can think of now) on the forums will '''not''' like our problems dumped on them, like you said. They'll have to read and make sure everything is appropriate instead of us. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Yes, dumping it on the forums would be a pretty unkind way of dealing with it, but... well tough. The forums are where people already go for &quot;So whats hte best sword in the game i like golbrand but some ppl seem to liek ubra????&quot; so people arguing over illusion vs conjuration as a skill for some roleplay is par for the course.<br /> ::: I've said before (but can't be bothered to find diffs) that if you need to be told how to roleplay then you're not doing it right. YOU are supposed to be a Paladin, and it's up to you to work out what that means: if you need to be told what to do then RPGs are not for you. On that basis, the entire roleplaying section could be reduced to one-line statements: &quot;Paladin: become the honorable champion of a cause - noble or otherwise&quot;.<br /> ::: Anyway. At this point, we're pretty much talking round in circles. I'm going to leave this debate now, and all I ask is that we get a clear set of guidelines for how whatever solution is picked is supposed to work. If we end up with more hand-waving, then we'll just be moving the problem to another place. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::I mainly am arguing for the non-deletion of them is because I've cleaned them. And I think I might be the most active Forum user and UESP user (That I know of...), and that's not saying a lot because I only contribute to the Trivia, mainly, but I have seen that the Forums aren't really as you describe. And I agree with you on the subject of simple RP pages, quoting myself &quot;Nobody needs their hands held when they're roleplaying&quot;. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I know it's usually discouraged, but given that we're pretty much talking in circles, and I don't see any ''major'' objections to any approach, would anybody object if we just put this to a vote? Once we've nailed down for certain ''what'' solution we're using, then we can hammer out the specifics of ''how''. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 02:45, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Nephele would have to say for sure, but I found more similarities with her proposal and our ''Fanfiction'' articles than our ''Mods'' articles. She'd also have to back this up, but let me see if I can break down her suggestion and make it a little clearer:<br /> #All of the current RPs are put up for &quot;adoption&quot;.<br /> #RP sections are adopted by editors that volunteer to maintain them. They are moved from content-space into user-space and categorized. They are completely user-owned articles. Any editor can adopt any number of articles.<br /> #Any that aren't adopted after a pre-determined amount of time are proposed for deletion.<br /> #The main roleplaying article is edited to hold a very basic description of what roleplaying is and how to develop ideas of your own, becoming even smaller than it is now. Instead of listing every user-space article, the main roleplaying page will simply link to the category.<br /> #Like fanfictions, the user-owned RP articles are uneditable by other editors unless the adopter specifically states that they welcome editing. Otherwise, editors can make suggestions on the talk pages. Sure, some editors may like to add/change things, but they aren't be able to, and I think that'll be fine. The whole point of this conversation and project is that it's not wiki-type material, and we shouldn't try to treat it as such.<br /> #The only maintenance that is necessary is making sure that the user-owned articles are properly categorized.<br /> I'd definitely prefer to see these articles go away, but I don't see that passing community consensus, so this seems like the next best thing. And AMM: I know how you feel, believe me; I did at least as much work as you just did cleaning these articles up a while back, but it's quite clear that they just don't belong here. I would definitely prefer to see the RP suggestions as forum posts instead, but since that doesn't look likely, either, this is the best solution I've seen. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:26, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 2)====<br /> This sounds fairly good. The only problem is that if we link to them from the article in wiki-space it's still in the wiki and thus it reflects badly on us if we include thing in that category like &quot;Mage's should go kill lotz of stuf with magik kuz thats what mages du&quot;. I think that we should have a subcategory (&quot;Oblivion-Roleplaying-Ideas-Suitable-For-Main-Site&quot; Is a bit long though. Any ideas for a name.) that would be handled by Userspace Patrollers. I have some thoughts on the rules for handling that but I'll write them up in the morning.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 07:35, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :This has been going on for a while now, and so I have [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|created a page]] with my vision of how it should look (based upon GK and Nephele's suggestions). Basically, it works almost exactly like the Fanfiction page, where you can include a link to your Roleplaying Ideas page under the appropriate section. I've also created a [[User:Roleplaying Example]] to serve as an example of how it should be done. The example hasn't been implemented yet because the template I suggested (&lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying Ideas|Name of Roleplay|My Username|Optional summary of submission.}}&lt;/nowiki&gt;) hasn't been created yet. The template will include a link to the user's Roleplaying Ideas page, the name of their idea (which they must put in sections, as detailed [[User:Roleplaying Example/Roleplaying Ideas|here]]. That means the template must be able to link the appropriate sections), and the user name. The example's roleplaying ideas page will include ''one'' of each roleplay character type variation (as in, one variation of assassin and one variation of fighter). Other users can expand upon these on their own RI pages or come up with their own. My concept may seem a little confusing, so any questions or comments? -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 14:49, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::A large part of what I have to say boils down to what GK said -- in particular regarding using Fanfiction as a starting point. But having already started to write this all down, here are all the gory details:<br /> <br /> ::''Allowed edits to userspace pages''<br /> ::* My thought was that we should have a template used on userspace pages to tell everyone what level of editing was acceptable. I previously put together a first draft of the template at [[Template:Editing Allowed]].<br /> ::* Assuming that basic idea is acceptable, we're still left with what to do if a user hasn't added an Editing Allowed template.<br /> ::** We could continue to assume that any untagged user pages are off limits to anyone except the editor.<br /> ::** Or we could make it so that all roleplaying content is implicitly open to some level of editing -- unless explicitly stated otherwise by the owner. For example, we could add an |editing= option to the [[Template:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] template (defaulting to editing=all) which automatically adds the Editing Allowed template to RP pages.<br /> ::* If a page is marked as un-editable and somebody wants to modify the idea then they would have to create their own copy of the page. (Or else ask the original user for permission to make changes, or post suggestions on the talk page, etc.) So if Josh doesn't want anyone touching his Paladin article, then we'd end up with multiple Paladin articles. <br /> ::* However, we probably do want to make a general exception, allowing edits to tags such as the &lt;nowiki&gt;{{Roleplaying}}&lt;/nowiki&gt; tag and its contents, regardless of the user's Editing Allowed preference. In particular, I think that other community members should be able to make changes to the categories. One justification for this exception is that such edits would not affect the page contents, but would affect category pages which are still essentially under community control.<br /> <br /> ::''Patrolling''<br /> ::* Regardless of whether or not we add userspace patrollers, I was assuming that existing standards for userspace patrolling would continue (and, in fact, this is one of the key reasons why moving the content to the userspace makes any difference relative to existing practice). In other words, for an edit to be marked as patrolled it basically just has to be made by someone who is allowed to edit the page, and the edit can't break site policy (no copyright violations, no personal insults, etc.).<br /> ::* I think there should be absolutely no expectation that patrollers are responsible for any type of cleanup -- spelling, grammar, whatever -- even if the original editor has stated that the content can be edited.<br /> <br /> ::''Quality''<br /> ::* Once the content is in the userspace, I do ''not'' think that its quality reflects on UESP overall. There's already a quality warning on the first draft of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|category pages]], which can be expanded if anyone thinks it's necessary. Beyond that, userspace RP articles would have the same effect on the site overall as fanfiction (all of which are listed on a [[General:Fanfiction|wikispace page]]), or as existing userpages -- which vary in quality just as widely as RP articles ever will.<br /> ::* The quality of the RP pages is likely to go down overall. However, my impression is that most of the people who contribute roleplaying ideas and most of the people who read the roleplaying ideas would prefer a wide-open range of ideas regardless of quality, rather than a tightly controlled, limited, but higher quality set of ideas.<br /> ::* I don't think we have any way to prevent a user from adding non-ES or console-based roleplaying ideas to a user page (and we never have). Furthermore, as in my previous point, there clearly are some editors and readers who want such content.<br /> ::* I personally would think that such non-ES/console ideas probably belong in separate categories. Overall, however, I think that details of how to categorize/organize the content should be left up to editors with an actual interest in roleplaying ideas. In other words, given that I personally am unlikely to ever read a RP page, I don't think my opinion on such details should matter.<br /> ::* Long-term there are probably even some ways to handle particularly poor-quality RPs, even in the userspace. For example, if enough editors agree (e.g., on a talk page), an RP idea could be tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;, in which case the ideas would be moved to a separate category. (Editors could also vote on the best RP ideas, for that matter). Perhaps if an RP article hasn't been modified in xx months, it automatically gets downgraded to an out-of-date category. However, I don't think that it makes sense to hammer out the details before we even have any content -- and again, it should be up to editors who use the pages.<br /> <br /> ::''Existing pages''<br /> ::* In terms of the existing Roleplaying content, my thought was that as part of the &quot;adoption&quot; process, we would eventually get rid of all of the existing roleplaying ''sub''pages -- the individual sections would all be moved to the userspace, or else deleted if nobody adopted that section.<br /> ::* For those subpages with more general introductory sections, the introduction might best be moved to the appropriate category page (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying-Fighter]], etc.)<br /> ::* I personally think that [[Oblivion:Roleplaying]] itself should be kept out of the userspace, primarily because it is a community effort -- it's not just a series of individually-written sections. And overall it seems to get fewer unwanted edits. Perhaps it would need to be permanently semi-protected -- and we probably would want to make it clear that any additions to &quot;Specific Character Ideas&quot; or other unwanted content added to the page will be immediately deleted. <br /> <br /> ::''Why not delete it all''<br /> ::* One critical point is that we essentially have no way to prevent people from adding these ideas to their user pages. Users have always been free to add whatever they wanted to the userspace. Ultimately the whole move-to-userspace just amounts to advertising an existing capability more visibly -- and adding some tags/categorization so people who want to find the content can.<br /> ::* More idealistically, however, I think that UESP should be a resource for the entire Elder Scrolls community -- so if there are members of the community who want to share roleplaying ideas, I think we should explore how to facilitate that, instead of shutting them out. Making entire topics taboo on UESP will just force ES players to set up a site somewhere else to share those topics. At that point, UESP has lost community members, has lost readers, and (for those who care solely about the bottom line) has lost advertising revenue, meaning we not might be able to afford future hardware upgrades, new servers, etc. Pushing people away from UESP could even promote the growth of other wikis (especially after TESV comes out).<br /> ::* The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair. My hope is that doing so addresses the community-wide issues related to roleplaying -- it is no longer &quot;official&quot; UESP content that reflects on the overall site; it is no longer the patrollers' or other editors' responsibility to clean it up. If it's possible to make it so that disinterested editors can just ignore the roleplaying pages, then I don't see any reason to disallow it.<br /> ::* I think promoting userspace content will increase the number of active UESP editors, even outside of the userspace. Starting out as a new editor on UESP can be downright intimidating -- we've probably all seen comments such as &quot;everything's been written&quot; or &quot;there's nothing I could do on the site&quot;. Promoting userspace content gives people a chance to learn about wiki editing and learn generally about how the site works, in a much more forgiving atmosphere than the rest of the site. Many of those editors might never make an edit outside of the userspace. But I'd bet some of them will get wiki-addicted just like all of us, and will expand to help elsewhere on the site. Or they'll at least know about previews and edit summaries when they do make occasional fix-it edits elsewhere on the site.<br /> <br /> ::In response specifically to Jplatinum16's sandbox ideas, I'm a bit confused by several details.<br /> ::* Why should users have to explicitly add a link to their idea on the page? Categories (e.g., [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying]]) can take care of that automatically. (And I think that's one detail of the fanfiction pages that should be redone, too).<br /> ::* Why should users have to put all of their roleplaying ideas on a single page? I think that should be one option for how to organize ideas, but I don't think it should be the only option.<br /> <br /> ::--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::I had completely forgotten about the Category idea, and I have changed my sandbox accordingly. Now the page serves as a viewing hub for users and non-users to see roleplaying ideas. I've included ten roles for now to be adopted. I still think that users should put their ideas on one page, which would limit the amount of pages to be created, and make it easier for ptrollers. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:21, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::{{ec}} I'm beginning to regret resurrecting this thread in some ways :), but I'm glad we're moving forward on this.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Jplatinum16:''' I think your idea for how a RP Ideas Category page should look is a great start.<br /> <br /> ::::'''Nephele (et al):''' I can see the benefit of putting Roleplaying into Category pages, and it occurred to me that FanFiction could probably be done that way as well. But would a {{Tag|catpagetemplate|open}} be able to handle a summary line, or would we have to simplify it (like the current Roleplay categories appear)? I'll play and see what I can get out of it, but as the designer of catpagetemplate, you'll probably have a better idea of what can be done here.<br /> <br /> ::::Also, I like Neph's idea of highlighting certain articles, but I think we're better off flipping it around and having &quot;Featured Roleplays&quot;, to highlight the really good ones. Editors may be rather discouraged by having their roleplay tagged as &quot;low quality&quot;. :) &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 18:27, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::I've added summaries and a bunch of test entries to some of our Roleplaying entries. You can see examples on any of the [[:Category:User_Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|roleplaying category pages]]. What do people think of the general idea, and specifically the formatting now that there's a bunch of entries in place? Note that for the moment, you can't actually add these with the &quot;real&quot; Roleplaying template; if people like the general idea, it's an easy addition to the Roleplaying template. Also note that if users try hard enough, and know what they're doing, they'll be able to add HTML formatting to the title, summary, or anything else. I just tried it, and the formatting actually looked so awful, I reverted it. We'll want to keep an eye out for that, or strip HTML from the input (if that's possible...I don't remember), and probably trim overly-long entries too.<br /> <br /> :::::Wandering off-topic slightly, the [[General:Fanfiction|Fanfiction]] page could be moved to a Category page and done similarly, though unless Nephele can astound me once again (which she does on a fairly frequent basis, actually), I think we'd have to give up at least ''some'' of the formatting found on the current page if it went into a category. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:46, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::I missed ''just a bit'' (Sarcastically as possibly possible), it seems. I haven't fully read everything yet but in short, Jplatinum's idea looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::Just a quick note: while RH was adding summaries to the individual Roleplaying entries, I was messing about with subcategory summaries (and I'll probably still be making some tweaks). So basically, there are a couple of different things being tested on the category pages, each of which can be undone/modified/etc separately. As for the fanfiction pages, it should be possible to put together a category with most of what the existing page has. The biggest &quot;issue&quot; is making wiki-style formatting possible for cattextpost/cattextpre -- which isn't difficult, I just hadn't bothered to realize before that the category text isn't being wikified by default. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]]&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:20, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ====Wrap Up (Edit break 3)====<br /> {{od}} (Probably the largest edit conflict ever) Well here are the rules I said I'd write up. I'm not sure it matters anymore but whatever. <br /> #Any user can nominate any roleplay for inclusion. However there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by Userspace Patrollers for it to be included.<br /> # If a nomination for inclusion is not accepted by the owner of the nominated page within two weeks the nomination is void.<br /> # If no Userspace Patrollers vote on a nomination the nomination is void unless there is overwhelming support which is herein defined as twelve unopposed or more votes of support.<br /> # All entries must be reviewed by at least three Userspace Patroller at least once a month. If this review is unfavorable then there must be at least a two-out-of-three vote by previously non-affiliated Userspace Patrollers to keep the entry.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 21:05, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> : UPs aren't even officialized yet and no one is a UP yet, so we would need to wait on that. And by inclusion do you mean being put with the 'official' ones? --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 21:12, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: (e/c) This... is turning into some kind of nightmare. We've now got an intricate system of templates and categories, with which new users are expected to familiarise themselves; systems of votes for high- and low-quality ideas, systems of editing restrictions, and who knows how many other systems for dealing with systems. And now the same ideas are being suggested for fanfics - an area that has managed by itself perfectly well both before and after it was moved to userspace.<br /> <br /> :: Nephele said: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; but I'm sorry, I don't think that's going to happen here. There is no way the sort of editor who typically edits roleplaying articles is going to manage to deal with all this stuff. It's going to come down to admins, patrollers, and other editors who have been around a while, and doing a hand-wave to pass it off to userspace patrollers is another way of saying that nobody really gives a damn about this content.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe it's true that deleting the roleplaying content is going to stop UESP getting the hardware it needs in the future. We've deleted vast sections before - [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Custom Classes|Custom Classes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Gripes|Gripes]], [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Tes4Mod:Mod Ideas|Mod Ideas]] and [[UESPWiki:Deletion Review/Oblivion:Things to Do When You're Bored|Things to Do When You're Bored]] are four hugely popular sections that spring to mind - and I don't see a catastrophic drop in activity that is down to anything but the games becoming a few months older.<br /> <br /> :: If the goal of this idea is to stop people from editing by making it too complicated for them to understand how, then I don't think that will work either. Instead, expect to see people ignoring edit restrictions, posting new ideas on existing pages, putting things into the wrong category, copy-pasting and generally making a total pig's ear of this whole system.<br /> <br /> :: I don't believe this kind of system is suitable for a wiki-style environment. Despite the many problems with the current set-up, I'd prefer that, but my vote would still go to deleting the whole damn lot and telling people to use a forum.<br /> <br /> :: I have real work that I want to do on this site. All I see coming out of this userspace move is a mess, and a mess that will distract me and other editors from making edits that will really, truly improve UESP. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 21:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: I don't see such a big problem. I mean, we've already got a button that'll insert the appropriate template onto the appropriate page. It may need some tweaking once we finalize everything, but the basic concept is already there - all the user has to do is fill in the blanks. Yes, categorization may be a bit more of an issue, but I think the UPs can cover that off reasonably well, and it's nowhere near as much work to edit a category as it is to review an entire submission. As it is, Roleplaying is often left unpatrolled, and I think Userfying would be a ''huge'' improvement. At least by flagging it as user content, the regular Patrollers can patrol it as such and move on, and if the Userspace Patrollers take care of it before we get there, so much the better!<br /> <br /> ::: Worst case scenario, it turns out to have been a bad idea and we Prod the whole mess and move on. Best case scenario, users find it inviting, easy-to-use, and we introduce a bunch of users to a simplified version of patrolling, with the possibility of attracting them to the larger version of it. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 23:37, 4 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::No one's forcing you to participate in this discussion rpeh, so if you have more important matters to take part of on the site then feel free to do so. I also seriously doubt that deleting the RP pages will cause a serious uproar, but we tried to delete it before and that didn't work, and so we can at least make it easier. The setup is basically all here (with some tweaks of course), as detailed on my sandbox. Users make their pages like with fanfiction: their ideas are free to be seen by anyone. How difficult is it to create a page and write something? It most likely can be more clarified to make it easier for newer users. Obviously some people give &quot;a damn about this content&quot;, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. What are your thoughts about the plan already thought up (a.k.a. my sandbox)? Is it really too difficult to follow? Do you see any future problems with it? I like the plan; one of the benefits is less IP addresses and more users, and of course we won't have those many unpatrolled edits. Can we discuss the sandbox right now, as it seems to include what we've established. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 03:05, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::We're getting back to that rut again. I'm sure many people are getting sick of this - I say we put JP's, RH's. and Nephele's combined recent work up for a vote - soon, before we forget what we were talking about. <br /> :::::On that topic, I would vote for it to go that way. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::Jplatinum, you've missed the whole point of my post. It's easy to have this discussion between a group of editors who have been around for a long time, but the only time any of us edit the RP pages is to fix links and spelling. The system has to be usable by new users with limited or no experience of wiki editing. For a new editor, creating a page and writing something is '''very''' difficult. I say nobody gives a damn about the content because this entire discussion is aimed at finding a way of moving it to a place where edits can be safely ignored. Are you really saying that you will start reading the roleplaying discussion. Once again I will quote Nephele: &quot;The central idea behind moving RP content to the userspace is to get it out of everyone else's hair&quot; so I think I'm fully justified in saying what I said.<br /> <br /> ::::::FWIW, I think your sandbox looks great but I don't think it will work. It doesn't matter how detailed the instructions are, a lot of people simply won't read them. As a simple example, we have a big, bold headline at the bottom of each page, under which users are asked to sign their talk page posts. How many times in a typical day to people simply ignore that?<br /> <br /> ::::::I could well be wrong. This might all work beautifully, and result in a fantastic, brave new world of wonderful roleplays always appearing in the right place, with no problems. If so, I will be very grateful for the new way of doing things. Moving roleplays out of Oblivion space is a great idea because it means we don't need to recreate anything for TES V (or Morrowind for that matter).<br /> <br /> ::::::As for ignoring the discussion, I had fully intended to do so and only came back when a hideous, overblown bureaucracy started to emerge, involving votes for good or bad pages, systems of highlighting and god knows what else. While I honestly do not care what eventually happens to these pages, I feel I should always warn people when they're gamboling joyfully towards the edge of a cliff. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 07:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Is this stuff really worth fighting for? Its just a page where ppl put game ideas on how to expand the gaming experiance. I enjoyed the fun stuff to do when your bored page and you guys deleted that. Actually the new roleplaying pages look crappy and dumb.Yes,offense to whoever did that. We all had voices on that page and we came up with our own ideas as long as we followed some guidelines. And besides this whole discussion is probaly between 5 ppl i didnt vote for who legitimateely rule this website.This entire discussion is just idiocracy and i perphaps you could set is so that it automatically sets as an minor-edit so patrollers wont be bothered in their eternal quest to standardize things.and yes i didnt sign it just to spite you. {{unsigned|Kinvalor75|5 September 2010}}<br /> :::::::: We're trying to do this '''SO''' everyone can express their opinions and ideas while at the same time patrollers and admins do not need to worry about it being in the Oblivion content. The current versions are much better content wise - it no longer hurts anyone's eyes to read it. And no, almost no one followed the guidlines for the Roleplaying pages. They used first person, horrid spelling, and repeated ideas. With the new Roleplaying style, you can do all that and no one will give a damn. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 16:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> You're right rpeh, this has been spiraling out of control, which was part of my reason of butting into the discussion. I want this to be over with as much as anybody else. To bring this to a close I suggest we at least ''try'' it. Like you said, this could either be something people completely ignore, or a system where everything works out perfectly (or close to perfect). If it doesn't work out, we delete the new categories, and unlock the roleplay pages and see where it takes us from there. But can we first try this new system, and let it sink or swim? We already have the proposal: users create their own roleplaying idea pages where they list their own character types. The types show up in the [[:Category:User Content-Oblivion-Roleplaying|Roleplaying categories]]. Users can make up their own ideas, or copy some from the old roleplay subpages (the subpages are temporary. Users who want to keep them put it on their own pages). Then here is the vote:<br /> <br /> *The contents of [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Bronze|my sandbox]] get moved into the user space as the page '''Oblivion:Roleplaying Ideas'''<br /> *The current [[Oblivion:Roleplaying|Roleplaying]] page gets unprotected and gets [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Message|this message]] put above it. The roleplaying page is now just a regular page which anybody can edit.<br /> *The subpages remain protected and get [[User:Jplatinum16/Sandbox/Silver#Roleplaying Subpages Message|this message]] put above it.<br /> *Assuming we get Userspace patrollers up and running, they will watch the roleplaying edits (as well as normal patrollers). All they look for is any vandalism, personal attacks, and profanity. They will also see if any user is struggling trying to set up their Roleplaying Ideas page.<br /> *We give the system three months after the official launch. In this three months, we let it take place. The system will be deleted if the following requirements aren't met:<br /> :#There aren't at least 10-15 users using this new system,<br /> :#There is 15-25 complaints and/or problems involving the system (problems include users having difficulty using the system, and users making random roleplaying sections everywhere ''but'' their roleplaying pages). Vandalism does not count, and the complaints must be from 15-25 ''different'' users.<br /> :#There are more than 50 unpatrolled edits to the these new user pages by the end of the 3 months.<br /> *If the system passes this test, then the roleplaying subpages are deleted and we keep using the system.<br /> I think this is a reasonable request. If the system breaks rule number 2 before the 3 months, it's over, and we return to what we've been dealing with. If anyone has any additional requirements for the system, feel free to comment.<br /> <br /> ====Votes====<br /> * '''Support:''' - as system nominator. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 18:31, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' with the proviso for #2 that the complaints come from multiple users and that vandalism and/or any suspicion of gaming the system are discounted. Otherwise the system could be deliberately failed quite easily. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:01, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ** Question: What's User:Roleplaying Ideas about? I don't think we really need a dummy user here; this should just be part of Oblivion space, or perhaps General if we're going for more than just Oblivion roleplays. User space should really just be for individual users. &lt;span style=&quot;white-space:nowrap; font-variant:small-caps; line-height:0;&quot;&gt;&amp;ndash; [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:18pt;&quot;&gt;&amp;#x219D;&lt;/span&gt;[[User_talk:RobinHood70|&lt;span style=&quot;vertical-align:super&quot;&gt;'''talk'''&lt;/span&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt; 19:06, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::Oops, the User thing was my bad. We'll keep it in the Oblivion namespace for the system test. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 19:17, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' As I said above. The final plan looks good. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:04, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' Short of the nuclear option, this is probably the best way of handling things. I will pray to Talos that it works. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 19:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Support:''' It is definitely worth a shot. Good work, JPlatinum16! --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 19:47, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Extremely Weak Support''' &amp;ndash; Too much bureaucracy. I prefer having these pages in the Userspace, so they can be individualized and so other users won't interfere with another person's ideas. I don't like the idea of other users telling other users how they should play. This is bound to cause more arguing and certain users will use the new rules to &quot;game the system&quot;. I will the game is best played when user come up with their own ways to play. UESP shouldn't dictate how users play. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 23:23, 5 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' It's not so much 'dictating' as it is suggesting. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 00:17, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> **You know as well as I do that some some people take wikis a little seriously. Although the articles are meant to show ''a way'' of doing things, some people have believe that these pages are meant to be ''the way'' of doing things. --'''[[User:Michaeldsuarez|Michaeldsuarez]] &lt;sup&gt;([[User talk:Michaeldsuarez|Talk]]) ([[Special:Contributions/Michaeldsuarez|Deeds]])&lt;/sup&gt;''' 00:53, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> * '''Comment''' Are there even 15-20 people using the current system ? If not I think it's kind of unfair to expect more people than already use the RP pages to use this new system.--&lt;span style=&quot;font-family:Lucida Handwriting; color: #000; text-shadow: 0 0 4px #ccc, 0 -2px 4px #ff3, 2px -4px 6px #fd3, -2px -6px 11px #f80, 2px -8px 18px #f20;writing-mode:tb-rl&quot;&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;[[User:TheAlbinoOrc|'''TheAlbinoOrc''']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:TheAlbinoOrc|&lt;font color=&quot;MidnightBlue&quot;&gt;any_questions?&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt; 00:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::The 15-20 users consist of IPs and users who've edited and read the old pages, and maybe even users who have never even looked at the RP pages. I think it's fair enough, considering the chance of failure of the system. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 00:51, 6 September 2010 (UTC)</div>

Michaeldsuarez https://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Subjective_Content&diff=600135 2010-09-06T00:53:57Z

<p>Michaeldsuarez: /* Votes */ Comment.</p> <hr /> <div>__TOC__<br /> {{Showhide/Start|Initial Discussion}}<br /> I think it is about time we discuss what the UESP is about and update our policy to 2010. Let’s face it: the amount of edits made to opinion-based pages are getting out of hand, the patrollers (including me) have given up on them, non-patrollers are struggling trying to figure out what to do with the load of bad ideas that pop up on the Roleplaying/Useful-pages and the Recent Changes page are about to explode with un-patrolled edits. Patrollers and editors trying to do useful work are frustrated with the lack of control and it affects their output in a negative way, and, worst-case scenario, they loose interest in contributing to the site. Let’s, for a minute, ignore the equally tremendous amount of uneven questions made to the talk pages all over the wiki, and focus on the opinion-based content. Let’s focus on three words: <br /> <br /> : '''Must-have, Useful and Roleplaying.''' <br /> <br /> These pages exist as part of the wiki’s content and have nothing to do with talk pages. The pages are forum-like, heavy-edited pages that we can’t control, nor do we really want to. I find it ironic and contradictive that we revert talk page edits with the edit summary “this is not a forum” while we allow these pages to grow and grow, making it nearly impossible to know what is right or wrong – for editors and patrollers alike. I have lost count of the complaints I have received on the IRC about these pages and now it seems that we are simply starting to ignore the fact that they exist. Neph tried to come up with a solution, AlbinoOrc tried to follow it up, but I think it is obvious that nobody wants to touch these pages. I will not attempt to come up with a solution now, I just want opinions: What do you think about these pages? Are they useful? Are they a must-have? Have you ever heard of a gamer thinking: “Man, I can’t solve this quest – I think I’ll find a useful spell to help me out.”? Editors, patrollers and admins – we need to figure this out now. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:11, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I agree that the wiki is for information, facts, tips and walkthroughs, but some of the users obviously enjoy this content, so outright deleting it would not help. Perhaps a specific namespace would satisfy everyone, to have the information away from general statistics, walkthroughs, locations, odd facts and the likes. I know several other wikis that do this – even Wikipedia has Essay: for opinion pieces. However, UESP does have the virtue of owning a forum and a blog, so perhaps the opinion pieces could be directed there. [[User talk:The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;''Proudly''&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Lore:Dunmer|&lt;span style=&quot;color:orange;font-family:serif&quot;&gt;Ashborn-&lt;/span&gt;]] [[Special:Contributions/The Ashborn|&lt;span style=&quot;color:green&quot;&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[verify]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;/span&gt;]] 10:44, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :: I agree with Krusty. We already have suggestions for the mods page (let each user list mods in their userspace and use the page as a hub) and Roleplaying (pretty much the same). That means we can start using Userspace patrollers and let them keep edits under control. The Useful Spells page contains ''some'' useful spells, and it's usually kept pretty much under control. Timenn cleaned it up a while back and he and I don't let it get too far out of control, although it's difficult when people come on with an agenda to push (those useless chain spells, for instance). The Useful Potions page tends to be pretty static so I don't think it's a problem. Useful Enchantments gets some real dross, and I note that somebody has added another useless set of swords with far too much detail (and I just deleted them). <br /> <br /> :: There are a few things that make the &quot;Useful&quot; series of pages worth keeping, but the others should be cleaned up along the lines already discussed. I'll make a start on the Mods page but I never quite understood the roleplaying plan. Maybe Nephele can explain more. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 12:48, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::: I have a few suggestions. I make a RP forum thread, post every section as a comment to this thread. before that starts we protect the thing and take out a ton of the bad/useless ideas. then once I'm done we redirect to the forum thread. Or we &quot;trim&quot; it and lock it and possibly add a proposed page in the user namespace and add some more Userspace Patrollers than just me.--&lt;small&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;b&gt;&lt;font color=&quot;#222222&quot;&gt;Corevette&lt;/font&gt;&lt;/b&gt;]]&lt;/sup&gt;&lt;sub&gt;&lt;span style=&quot;position: relative; left:-30px; margin-right:0px;&quot;&gt;[[User:Corevette789|&lt;font color=&quot;#444444&quot;&gt;789&lt;/font&gt;]]&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/sub&gt;&lt;/small&gt; 16:30, 1 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: The Useful Spells page, to me, was never useful because 1.) Only some of my characters had access to spellmaking alters, and 2.) It was too much of a hastle, when you could whip up your own, a spell only you consider &quot;Useful&quot;. Must-Have mods are different for everyone, of course. And I'll say again, I really want to start cleaning up the Roleplaying pages. I actually may made a sandbox of one section... an example of how it should look like. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 01:31, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> ::::: I couldn't help myself, so I went ahead and made [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this]]. I hope it will be the example page for all roleplaying pages. I might have gone a little delete happy, but the final result looks much better. It copies [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|the Fighter or Warrior section]]. Compare the two and you'll need to admit that my version does look neater, at least. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:15, 3 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: Third post in a row, I'm starting to think I'm talking to myself... anyways, I'd like confirmation to replace [[Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter or Warrior|this article]] with [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|this one]]. It's true, I may have deleted a &quot;bit&quot; too many entries, but I do have a reason for all of them. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:00, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> Based on Matt’s cleanup-project in his Sandbox and the somewhat expected amount of replies (given that we are in the middle of the summer holidays), I have a proposal for some changes that could make life at ton easier on all of us – without deleting content and upsetting a lot of people who have spend hours and hours improving the pages. This solution could be temporary, just to see how it goes – but I believe it would be a whole lot better than the current situation and, especially, better than all the Quality Tags about heavy-edited articles and so on. My idea is:<br /> * We decide that we have had enough excellent ideas on the above mentioned pages, which basically boils down to opinion-based content-pages like Roleplaying, Useful-pages, Must-have pages and Idea-pages. <br /> * We clean up what we have. Rpeh’s reply indicates that he is willing to do a bit of cleanup and Matt’s sandbox looks good. If we all participate, then this should be a walkover. <br /> * We lock ands protect all opinion-based content. No more edits and ideas on these pages. We create a new tag, which points creative editors to: <br /> * Proposed-pages for each page, basically the same as the [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed|Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] page – like Roleplaying/Proposed (all categories under ONE roof), Useful Spells/Proposed ect. This will give us some much-needed peace and quiet, especially in the Roleplaying section, where all ideas will turn up on one page only. No edits can be done to the main pages, only to the Proposed-pages, which mean the community can discuss whether or not the ideas are good before they are added to the main pages – and we can avoid the chaos we are facing now. <br /> <br /> It is pretty simple and I believe it could improve the current situation a lot. Sure, the Proposed-pages will experience a whole lot of traffic, but the traffic will be much more submissive, and make editors think twice before adding a half-baked idea. That last point alone would be worth all the effort. I’m obviously keen on the idea, so let’s hear it – yay or nay? --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 08:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I'm not sure how well using a /Proposed page will help with the problems. With the Glitches page, it just means that the /Proposed page fills up until [[User:RobinHood70|someone]] decides to clean it up, and I have a bad feeling that a Roleplaying/Proposed page would be even worse. I think the Useful pages are... just about... good enough to keep as they are, although I wouldn't object to a /Proposed page for these. The Must Have Mods page proposal will Userfy most content so there shouldn't be a problem.<br /> <br /> : The bigger problem is that if you're talking about semi-protection then it won't stop a lot of the problem anyway. I'd say that a fairly high amount of content added to these pages comes from users who are auto-confirmed, so semi-protection won't stop them bypassing the /Proposed page. If you're talking about full protection, then only admins will be able to integrate the content. It might be worth going back and trying to work out how effective the scheme would have been before we spend a lot of time implementing it. I'll go ahead with the Mods changes once I get around to writing up my own list. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 10:48, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::(e/c) I'm all for adding some restrictions to the more liberal content pages, but we must keep in mind that not all of them are really bad. When I started cleaning up Oblivion:Useful Spells I expected that only a few marginally useful spells would remain. This was not the case, some clever ideas were buried under the big pile of entries. I disagree with the assessment that no editor is going to search for useful spells. The amount of questions asked by various editors on these matters should tell otherwise. Maintaining a few articles with general tips instead of walkthrough specific info should not be a problem. It's all about keeping the lid on the barrel, it should not get out of hand (e.g. Roleplaying). <br /> <br /> ::[[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]] should point out the failure of an attempt to create an efficient process of proposal-&gt;acceptance-&gt;implementation; new proposals are rarely reviewed and linger on for years. It's very easy to propose a new idea, the difficulty lies in the refinement of it. So I'd say to only accept entries if people have a refined idea they are willing to immediately add to the article, without much further need of reviewing. If the added content fails to meet the quality standards, other editors should be free to remove it. If the editor finds the idea truely interesting, but not refined enough, he/she can always move it to the talk page. If an editor has a clever suggestion, but not the ability to write a full section on it, he/she should post something on the talk page. The trick on getting other editors to review it is to make your proposal interesting enough that other editors feel inclined to jump in, not because they have to, but because they are intrigued.<br /> <br /> ::It's hard to overhaul all said articles with new content criteria. I think it's mostly a lesson we should learn for when new articles like these are created (for TES V, for example). I would support making the Roleplaying articles static though, but I think we can maintain the rest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-&lt;span style=&quot;font-size: 9px; letter-spacing: 1px;&quot;&gt;&amp;lt;[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]&amp;gt;&lt;/span&gt; 10:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: (e/c) (response to rpeh's post) I meant full protection, of course. While I agree that the Must-have and Useful-pages are less of a problem, this could work with the RP pages and simply lessen the amount of edits made to the various subcategories. I, for one, would gladly do the extra effort and add the approved ideas from a Proposed/Roleplaying-page to the relevant content page, and I'm pretty sure the other admins will do it as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 10:58, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I agree with Krusty's idea, the only problem I can think would happen is the shock that no one can edit the roleplaying pages anymore, which some people would certainly be against. But it would make them much less of an eyesore. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 13:46, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Nevermind the shock. If we simply deleted the whole lot, then people would be shocked. This solution keeps all the existing information on the pages, it just makes sure that we avoid edits [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Ruler&amp;curid=66303&amp;diff=591108&amp;oldid=590399&amp;rcid=612400 like] [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Fighter_or_Warrior&amp;curid=65795&amp;diff=591109&amp;oldid=590098&amp;rcid=612401 this]. Also, based on the above opinions, I would like to limit my suggestion to the Roleplaying pages only - for now. Both Timenn and rpeh have a point regarding the Useful-pages, so let us stick to RP and test the technique. But before we start, it would be nice with some more opinions, especially because we are about to fully protect a lot of pages + it would be great if we could find some volunteers to clean up the existing pages one by one. Matt? ;) --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:12, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::::: I think I could help... :) When it's ready to start, I'd guess I'd make more sandboxes, then. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt;&lt;sup&gt;[[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]]&lt;/sup&gt; 15:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::::: That's an awesome proposal, Krusty, though I do have reservations about how effective the /Proposed page is likely to be, mainly that it won't be at all. However, even if the /Proposed is a mess in the end, it is only one page as opposed to the quite large amount of Roleplaying pages there are. And as for cleaning up the current RP pages, I may be willing to lend a hand. --&lt;sup&gt;[[User:Darkle|Darkle]]&lt;/sup&gt; ~ &lt;sub&gt;[[User talk:Darkle|Talk]]&lt;/sub&gt; 16:10, 4 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}I think the best solution for &quot;must-have&quot; and &quot;roleplaying&quot; articles is to userfy them all. They're not really wiki-type material. I'd say the same about &quot;useful&quot; articles, but if there are established and talented editors that think they're worth maintaining as-is, then I'll leave 'em to them. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 19:13, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I hope that means they still need to be cleaned up... I've been working on that for a couple of days. If they were to be userfy-ed, I'd still think it would be best to protect them.--&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:02, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::Cleanup is always a good thing. I worked on the Roleplaying articles for several months (you should've seen 'em when there were over a hundred subpages), but there's really no real reason to host 'em on the wiki; this seems to be a reasonable compromise. I also don't see any reason the userfied pages would need to be edited. The way I understood it, the roleplaying ideas would be treated like the Fanfictions; a roleplaying article would be in a user's userspace, so that user is the one that edits it. I don't fully understand the way they would be linked within the wiki, but I would think that the central page that lists the users' roleplaying articles would be at least semi-protected to prevent it being flooded and overwhelmed. In fact, I'd be perfectly fine with a guideline of sorts saying that we're not going to delete what's already here, but we're also not going to host any new roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:43, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::I vaugely remember the old Rp pages, like ''Santa Claus'' and ''Mr. Nice Guy''. Speaking of the articles, in the final cleanup I'd like for the ''Collecter'' page and the ''Scientist'' page to be merged into the Jobs and Mage pages, since they both are so small right now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 22:44, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::I'm getting confused now... are we userfying the stuff (in which case where does it go) or cleaning up (and leaving where it is???)<br /> <br /> ::::What exactly is being proposed? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 23:47, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: I still like Krusty's idea. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 23:50, 7 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I like the ''intent'' behind Krusty's idea, but I don't like the idea of content pages that only admins can edit. I'm struggling to think of cases where this has happened before even for a few minutes - usually, the solution was to block the person or people making disruptive edits but leave the pages open to everybody else.<br /> <br /> :::::: I think we've arrived at a set of resolutions: Useful * pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long. Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches. Roleplaying... I'm still not sure how that one works. Userfy, sure... but what goes where? [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 00:12, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}}Regarding the roelplaying articles, this is the way I understood it;<br /> <br /> The individual subpages (or sections of the subpages; I wasn't too clear on this part of it) would be put up for &quot;adoption&quot;. Then editors would be able to &quot;adopt&quot; the article, move it to their own userspace (something like &quot;User:GK/Roleplaying/Farmer&quot;), and edit or adjust as they saw fit. After a pre-determined amount of time, any articles that weren't adopted we would assume weren't really used by anyone, since no one cared enough about them to adopt them. At that point, we'd delete any that users hadn't moved into their own userspace.<br /> <br /> This way, if anyone was particularly attached to a specific roleplay, they'd have the opportunity to ensure it wouldn't be deleted. I'm not sure what Neph's proposal was for the policy after this was done, but I'd love to see a policy that we would not host any more Roleplaying articles. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''&lt;sup&gt;[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]]&lt;/sup&gt; 02:33, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I've already taken five pages, plus the main one. ( [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/User:Arch-Mage_Matt/Sandbox_4 example]) It's not that I like a specific one (Actually, the exact opposite...) but I took them under the impression that they would be kept in the main space. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 03:06, 8 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: Matt, no matter what we end up with, it is brilliant to get the pages cleaned up and for once get it systematized. I still don't understand the Userfying suggestion to handling the RP pages (and I have a feeling we can discuss it for several years), but my vote is still on a new Roleplaying/Proposed page and a firm lock on all regular RP pages (after Matt's cleanup, of course). If the system turns out to have its flaws, or only works partially, I'm still 100% positive it is a better solution until we can figure out Neph's suggestion. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 14:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::: I finished, but it may need some minor cleanup. And you might notice that the ''Ruler'' page is not included -- simply because almost every section in it is mod, or pc, dependant. Count, Ayleid Ruler, Emporer, everything needs the console, or mods. Nothing on that page can an Xbox user do fully. That's why I'd like it to be deleted in the final ... whatever we're doing. I also merged the Merchant and Collecter into the jobs page, and the Scientist into the mage page. And here's a list of all of them: [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 2|One, Fighter]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 3|Two, Wilderness Dweller]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 4|Three, Main Page]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 5|Four, Mage]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 6|Five, Lifestyles]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 7|Six, Religious Enthusiast]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 8|Seven, Assassin]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 9|Eight, Jobs]], [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 10|Nine, Guards]], and [[User:Arch-Mage Matt/Sandbox 11|Ten, the Criminal page]]. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:34, 9 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> {{od}} Good work, Matt! Now we just need a consensus. Rpeh wrote a good list describing the future of the Must-Have and Useful-pages: <br /> :* ''Useful pages - we can keep in check. Sometimes it might take a couple of days, but by and large useless stuff doesn't last for long.'' <br /> :* ''Must Have Mods will be userfied except for the unofficial patches.'' The post below shows how this works and it looks good - people have already started implementing favorite mods in their own userspace, so we will just have to wait and see how things turn out.<br /> Now, for the Roleplaying pages. Admitted, I haven't read through all Matt's changes yet, but the pages looks good, some pages have been merged with others, and they appear orginized. Now, [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Roleplaying/Religious_Enthusiast&amp;curid=65792&amp;diff=592404&amp;oldid=589654 this] edit is from today and shows exactly why I proposed the full protection in the first place. We can discuss and try to figure out Neph's intentions for a long time, but until Neph herself shows up with the full explanation, we might as well give Matt the permission to add his changes to the pages. Whether or not we are going to protect them (for now) is up for discussion. I'm still for it, obviously, but I sense a few &quot;opposes&quot; out there, and it would be great to reach consensus now. Mind you, we do not necessarily lock them forever, merely as an attempt to control the heavy-edited pages. Matt, you should probably wait for some responses before launching your changes. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 07:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> : I still don't like the idea of fully-protecting content, but I hate edits like that one even less. I suppose using this as a stopgap is fair enough. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 09:57, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :: I do think it's a good idea, because several confirmed users still edit the space. I think everyone's new ideas should go through a trial before it's put on the page. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 20:40, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::: No, that's the point. '''Full''' protection means that only admins can edit it. While I think that's fine for vital pages and for various other pages that users can't possibly improve (eg, Financial information), I don't like it for content. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]]&lt;span style=&quot;font-size:xx-small&quot;&gt;&amp;nbsp;•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]•&lt;/span&gt; 22:32, 10 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> :::: You have a point. But given the recent edit of content that was going to be removed if it goes by my pages - I'd like to have something happen, at least within the next couple of days. It'd be nice to have people stop wasting their efforts on the less-than-quality pages that they are now. --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 04:58, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> ::::: Fair enough, Matt. I think the Wiki is a tiny bit quiet because of the summer and I understand why you want to launch your work as soon as possible. However, given the controversy of the proposal we need some sort of consensus or, at least, some more opinions from the patrollers and admins. I'll try to get in touch with everybody over the weekend. In the meantime, please keep an eye on the changes made to the RP pages, just to make sure they don't clash with your work and the upcoming overhaul. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] 12:14, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::: I'm almost the opposite of what you said (I'm thinking I'll be less active as the Summer ends). That's why I tried to &quot;Hurry it along&quot;. I can see your reasoning though, so go ahead and do whatever you need to do. :) --&lt;font color=purple&gt;[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']]&lt;/font&gt; &lt;sup&gt;[[Special:Contributions/Arch-Mage Matt|Did '''I''' Do That?]]&lt;/sup&gt; 12:29, 12 August 2010 (UTC)<br /> <br /> :::::::I haven't contributed to this discussion so far, because I'm not really sure what I can usefully add. I've already done what I could to present my ideas about how the roleplaying pages could be moved into the userspace. From GK's accurate summary of my ideas, it seems that what I previously said was understood. I think the only way to make the concepts more concrete -- and the best way to work out the details -- is to start actually implementing some changes. If I had the time, I'd be willing to do some