UESPWiki - User Contributions [en]

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T20:42:15Z

Kitkat1749:

[[Category:Message Boards]][[Category:UESP Administration]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<div style="float:right">{{Scrolling Archive Table|class=collapsible collapsed|height=225px|width=300px
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 1|Archive 1|February 2005 – June 2006
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|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 23|Archive 23|December 2011 – February 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 24|Archive 24|February 2012 – March 2012
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|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 29|Archive 29|October 2012 - December 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 30|Archive 30|January 2013 - March 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 31|Archive 31|March 2013 - June 2013
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|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 33|Archive 33|December 2013 - February 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 34|Archive 34|March 2014 - August 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 35|Archive 35|August 2014 - November 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 36|Archive 36|November 2014 - September 2015
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 37|Archive 37|March 2015 - February 2016
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 38|Archive 38|March 2016 - May 2017
}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}</div>
The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions.

'''Before starting a discussion here,''' please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.
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== Getting redirected to mobile pages ==

After some debugging I've reached the conclusion that this is happening because of the Squid cache server you use: a user visits a page from his mobile phone, and the mobile version of the page gets cached in the Squid server. The next person who loads the page gets the mobile version, regardless of what platform he's browsing from, because that's what's saved in the Squid cache.

This only happens to unregistered users, since logged in users don't have their caches paged by Squid. If it happens to you, you can press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Squid to bypass its own cache and serve you the current page.

But, please, fix it. It is very annoying. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 17:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the note...this shouldn't be the case as the desktop and mobile versions of the page are different URLS (en.uesp.net and en.m.uesp.net) but a quick test seems to agree with you. I'll check it out further and see if it can be fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::So I must have got really lucky with my quick tests as I can't recreate the issue in on other page or with the original page (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa) once I purge it. If you can give some more explicit examples of how you are testing it so we can replicate that would be great. Squid does cache using the full URL so it would seem that this is not the complete issue at the very least. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::One of your assumptions is wrong. All users get the mobile theme from en.uesp.net, provided they have the user-agent of a mobile browser.
:::A quick way to reproduce this with a computer would be like this. '''Do all of this while logged off!'''
:::* Open Google Chrome and hit F12, this will open the developer tools toolbox. At the top-left side of this toolbox, the second icon next to the mouse cursor is a mobile and a tablet ("Toggle device toolbar"), click it. You'll see the current page has stretched; click the dropdown on top of it that says "Responsive" and switch it to some mobile phone, "Galaxy S5" is OK. Now, you're sending the user-agent of a Samsung mobile phone.
:::* Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa -- depending on who visited it the last time, it'll be the full or the mobile version.
:::* Press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Chrome to reload the page, telling the web server to completely disregard the cache. This will make Squid destroy its own cache and ask MediaWiki for the webpage. You'll see the mobile version appear as it should: MediaWiki is being told you're a mobile phone, and therefore you're getting the wiki with the mobile theme.
:::* Open a new tab. This time, it's the normal browser; you're not pretending to be a mobile. Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa You'll get the mobile version of the wiki. This confirms it's cached in Squid like that because you just visited it from a mobile phone. Press Ctrl+Shift+R, this way Squid will destroy its cache and ask MediaWiki again for the webpage. You'll get the full version, because you have the user-agent of a computer.
:::* Switch back to the mobile tab. Click the URL field and press enter to reload the webpage making sure you're '''not''' bypassing the Squid cache. You'll get the full version of the page, because that's what you cached. If you press Ctrl+Shift+R again from here, you'll get the mobile version.
:::* And so on.
:::I hope you can reproduce it. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 18:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::::Ahh, that was it. For some reason the "autodetect" portion was still on. I turned that off and have to figure out how to auto-redirect mobile devices to the mobile site (which I thought it was doing). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I made some changes which include a forced redirect to the mobile site to prevent the cache poisoning. Give it a go and see if that works for you now or not. It seems that MobileFrontEnd doesn't redirect itself and it is handled by another part of MediaWiki or the HTTP server in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::tyvm. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::Well, I have just realised this keeps happening. The only difference now is that instead of the whole mobile page being cached, what's cached is the redirect to en.m.uesp.net, but the effect is the same. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 11:04, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Of course it does...:) I made a quick change to try and prevent Squid from caching the 302 redirect. Once again it "seems" to work in a few quick tests but if you find otherwise let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Also had to make an unrelated change in order to get HTTPS to work for the mobile changes so the "en.m.uesp.net" mobile sites are no longer going through Squid which prevents them from being cached at all (at least for the moment until I can figure out multiple SSL certificates in Squid 2.x). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}Starting a new line - i have noticed that this has started happening again recently. (Like before, its fairly annoying, as it autochanges every time). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Testing New Ad Network ==

I happened to have a chat with some from Curse recently who mentioned that they run an ad network for gaming related sites which includes better vetting of ads to reduce/eliminate the number of "bad ads" (auto scrolling, auto playing, inappropriate content, etc...). I've signed up for a 2 month test run with them to supply all the ads on UESP during this time. I'm setting it up this week so except a bunch of changes from day to day. I'm hoping this give us roughly the same revenue to keep the site running and reduce user frustration with ads.

If you run into page errors or ad issues of any kind don't hesitate to let me know (Curse ads are not yet active). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:I'm sure a lot of people will be happy if it is an improvement. Some others will be happier with the new puns available (including the ability to Curse ads). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

::In a confused second I found myself looking for the "Like" button to express my support. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 20:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if this is an error, but as of today, AdBlock blocks ads but leaves a blank space at the top where the ad was, instead of collapsing that blank space. I'm also seeing ads at the top when logged in (or a blank space if AdBlock is enabled), but I have not logged in for a while so I don't know if that is new or was intentionally changed. '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►t]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►e]] 14:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

::::I have the same blank space as Vely, however I don't see any ads at all and I don't even have an ad blocker. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm not one to complain about blank spaces if they are caused by ad-blockers, but I've just tested with Chrome and Opera (as well as my use of Firefox) and the blank spaces at both the top and bottom are persisting when the inbuild blockers are active. The blank space can be rather off-putting and looks odd, so something should be done, whether removing it or putting one of those explanatory messages about why ads are needed. Feels odd to be cursing the lack of ads. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I did not even know there was an inbuilt blocker in Chrome, and I have certainly not actively turned it on. (Where is the setting for that?) Still there are these blank spaces on the top and bottom of the articles where the ads were supposed to be. How can this ad network give any revenue if the more common browsers are blocking the ads by default? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:My mistake, Chrome is planning to add one (by next year), I thought they already had one. Without my installed one the ads appear, with it blank spaces. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

::All the more an issue. The ads are not there on my Chrome. Just an empty space over the article and an empty space under it. And I have no known adblock software. The ads are there with Edge. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 17:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I have got the ads now, with no change in my settings. (Still Chrome on Win10) —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 05:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As a temporary workaround for the top ad taking up space when it shouldn't, I've added a means of suppressing that specific ad altogether. To do so, just add <code>#topad { display:none; }</code> to [[Special:Mypage/common.css|your common.css]] page on a new line. See [[User:RobinHood70/common.css|mine]] if you want an example. A few provisos: only logged-in users can do this, since IP users can't customize their CSS (at least, not via the wiki), and this may change or be removed at any point, since it's not an ideal long-term solution and it will obviously depend whether we want to keep the new ads in the long-run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless I'm missing something this isn't active wiki-wide nor have I touched my cs, yet the top space is gone. I've logged in and out, and on both Firefox and Opera the space is gone, though it remains on Chrome (no adblocker). Perhaps it just needed a purge with the new ads? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

::Somehow, I'm not really surprised, even though nothing I did should have had that effect. There have been a lot of different reports of ads, space, or nothing, with no apparent rhyme or reason. Caching of some kind could well be part of the problem. At least for those who are just getting a big blank space, this'll let them get rid of it. I'm largely leaving the rest to Dave, though, because I don't actually know what all was involved with the new ads, and there's clearly things affecting them that I'm unaware of, so I didn't want to poke around too much. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Can we go back to the old ads please? Or at the very least block the ones with autoplaying videos. I've been getting those on every other page, and you'll probably go deaf if you dare open more than 2 tabs. There's no way to report them, and I don't think the Steam Overlay browser supports any adblockers. [[Special:Contributions/98.18.163.16|98.18.163.16]] 00:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I see all these postings about video ads, but I can not seem to have registered any of them myself. Are there wide variations on who gets them and not? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 13:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect Escaping Issue ==

This is probably a pretty specific issue, but when you search with the <code>!uesp</code> bang on DuckDuckGo, it sends you to e.g. <code>www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim:skyrim&...</code> which gets 301 redirected to the appropriate language subdomain such as <code>en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim%253Askyrim&...</code>, but the search field seems to get double URL encoded in the process, so when it gets decoded after the redirect, colons show up as <code>%3A</code> in the search field and there's no results. This also happens with spaces, turning them into <code>%20</code>, so the search is basically unusable via the DDG bang. Hopefully this can be fixed, as it would otherwise be super convenient! [[User:DuBistKomisch|DuBistKomisch]] ([[User talk:DuBistKomisch|talk]]) 15:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

:This appears to be a problem with their coding, as it also fails when using it to search wikipedias subnamespaces. It appears they are using hex codes when converting, rather than the standard html codes used on mediawikis. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

== beyondskyrim.uesp.net? ==

I'd like to bring up the issue of this new wiki and point editors towards [http://beyondskyrim.uesp.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page this discussion]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless Dave has given his permission that wiki is infringing on our name and our site/servers. I don't believe it has permission seeing as it makes no sense to have a separate wiki on the same site, detracting from the main one, and it is duplicating the layout by wikipedia and not here. I can't see any links for contacting the site owners but if they are the same people as the ones editing here I suggest they either cease and desist or let it be known that they have dave's permission to use his servers. I've emailed Daveh, as others probably have too, to get this sorted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's hosted by us/Dave, apparently at the request of the mod authors. However, I also agree that it's damaging to our own Tes5Mod documentation to set up a competing wiki. If we're hosting it, it should be on our platform. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::: First of all, there's definitely no infringement issues, as it was set up by Dave together with one of the Beyond Skyrim team leaders. I hope Dave doesn't mind me posting this, but here's the discussion between myself and him after the BS developers concluded that they wanted to ditch their unused wiki at Dark Creations:
<pre>
Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Have you ever considered hosting other Elder Scrolls fan wikis?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
What other ES fan wikis?

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
The Beyond Skyrim guys are apparently looking to move their wiki out of Dark Creations.

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Ahh, I see
We could definitely host that for them if they'd like
We've hosted a bunch of small fan sites over the years.
TamrielRebuilt is one the larger ones (no longer with us but we had it for a while).

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Don't we still have TR stuff in the TES3Mod namespace? Or are they not using it any more?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Not sure what we have on the wiki, but they had their own web site/dev wiki seperate from ours.
I think we have some general info in the UESP wiki.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Ah OK.
Well thanks for the offer of hosting, I'll pass that on to them and see what they say!

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Yup, that goes for any ES site that happens to need hosting, temporary or otherwise.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Hmm, I will endeavour to remember that :smiley:
27 June 2017
</pre>
:::Now personally, if Dave is happy with the concept, then so am I, and since the BS wiki ''itself'' is a product of the BS team, then I don't think the UESP wiki administration has any say on whether it actually exists or not. The alternative would be that it's just hosted somewhere else. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: The Tamriel Rebuilt content we host is in-depth and high-standard, and includes the [[Tes4Mod:Stirk|Stirk Oblivion mod]] in addition to the main [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|TES3 project]] which is still updated by members of the modding team and UESP editors alike. The Tamriel Rebuilt [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ website] mentioned in the conversation above is not a (public) wiki. This Beyond Skyrim website, on the other hand, is in direct competition with UESPWiki. As you said, its existence is a decision for the modding team, but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to our own BS documentation if this goes ahead. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 18:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::The logic of having a semi-competing public wiki hosted on the same server wasn't really the concern for me. My concern was whether it had permission to be there and if it does then that's fine. There's not really any notes about what the wiki is for, or how it intends to avoid duplicity with existing content here (unless of course it intends to duplicate sections of the main wiki). This may all be due to it being in its infancy, but someone must surely have anticipated the anxiety such a wiki would create upon its creation and sought to allay any concerns by being open and upfront about its existence. The users on this wiki have always been concerned about the use of our materials without proper attribution or permission, and with good cause, so to see a new wiki using our name with no apparent endorsement was very concerning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::From the BS team's perspective, the draw for having a separate wiki over making use of Tes5Mod space was so that they had direct administrative control over it and were not bound by any of the UESP restrictions on what is actually allowed in modspace. The draw for them being hosted on the UESP server was ''intended'' to be to foster cross-cooperation between the two wikis; they get a spot on the server of a well-respected Elder Scrolls fansite, we get links from them for documentation of the primary Skyrim gameplay aspects, which they then don't need to duplicate as they are mostly unchanged, and it frees us from having to consider how to document Beyond Skyrim in the '''Depth over Breadth''' category because we know there's a dedicated wiki specifically for that purpose.

::::::For the end user, the result is essentially the same; if they're here looking for Beyond Skyrim, they'll start off at either [[General:Beyond Skyrim]] or a root page in Tes5Mod (yet to be created). From there, if we have all the content ourselves, they will either end up navigating through numerous subpages of that one Tes5Mod root page, or if we link to the BS wiki, they'll be navigating through the pages there. As long as they can find what they're looking for, I don't really think they'll care whether it says "UESPWiki" or "Beyond Skyrim Wiki" at the top. Beyond that, anyone who enters the BS wiki from other entry points, such as the official BS website, would see the close relationship with UESP and may then be inclined to visit us as well. If they were off on their own, that connection wouldn't be there.

::::::Being labelled as the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" rather than hidden away as the n'th mod covered by UESP also allows them some legitimacy, as I have always believed that there is less support for the creation of unofficial wikis on a topic if a specific community has a designated official one. I would say therefore that the UESP being the hosts of the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" shouldn't really be considered a detriment to us. The fact that Beyond Skyrim even considered the option of having UESP host their official wiki should speak volumes about how much the wider Elder Scrolls community values us as an Elder Scrolls site, and the fact that UESP/Dave agreed to host their official wiki was certainly met with a very positive reception when it was announced to the Beyond Skyrim team.

::::::So with that in mind, I would like to suggest that we act like the gracious hosts that I thought we were, and we show support for the Beyond Skyrim team and their official wiki. Beyond Skyrim needs to be documented, and they have somewhere for that to be done. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the wiki's URL is broken, and beyondskyrim.uesp.net is not intended. For all technical domain purposes, it is supposed to be wiki.beyondskyrim.org, but the certification isn't ready. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The initial talk page I linked to above has been deleted, so I suppose this discussion will have to happen UESP-side (as it should have from the start). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

: It might be worth mentioning that the uesp wiki will also have pages on us just like there are for Tamriel Rebuilt (our community was founded via Tamriel rebuilt members). The fact that the url for this new wiki contains uesp is temporary and because I haven't bought the certificates yet to use the wiki.beyondskyrim.org and devwiki.beyondskyrim.org url. {{uns|Meliodas|23:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)}}

:: So I've discussed the purpose of the public BS wiki with Meliodas at length and it doesn't appear to have very much overlap at all with our potential coverage. I'd therefore like to suggest that we limit our coverage to the released mods (currently only Bruma), which is exactly how we handle TR releases. The BS wiki is much larger in scope, and in hindsight I realise it was unfair to label it as competition since its focus is inherently different. Does this work for everyone? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

::: Sounds good to me! Seems I may have misinterpreted the purpose of the public BS wiki all along. Or perhaps its true purpose was yet to be decided, and with the hype of the Bruma release I was rushing to a conclusion that was not ready to be reached. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Agreed! It seems we have come to a solution that is good for all involved parties. --[[User:Meliodas|Meliodas]] ([[User talk:Meliodas|talk]]) 01:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach PTS ==

A little late on this update since I just got back from vacation...fortunately it is a smaller content DLC.

:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15pts Files] -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

: Awesome! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Namespace Proposal ==

If we are to be documenting the content of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]], starting with the release of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Bruma|Beyond Skyrim: Bruma]] which just came out, I think it would be beneficial to set up some pseudo-namespaces for that information, similar to what was done with [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]]. A slight difference in format here is that each province is being developed as a separate mod, unlike TR3 where everything is part of the same one, so ideally we will need pseudo-namespaces for each one of those. Right now though, all that is released is Bruma, which is part of the Cyrodiil province. So following the layout of [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] (thanks for the link, RH), I would like to propose a namespace for [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil]]:

<pre>
# NS_BASE ; NS_ID ; NS_PARENT ; NS_NAME ; NS_MAINPAGE ;
Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; BS5C ; Skyrim ; Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ;

NS_CATEGORY ; NS_TRAIL
Tes5Mod-Beyond Skyrim-Cyrodiil ; [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]
</pre>

Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:I'm not sure we need to create pseudo-namespaces for every partial release of Beyond Skyrim, particularly if we are not going to document it to the same extent as Tamriel Rebuilt due to it having its own wiki for that level of detail. I don't see any reason not to set this up at least for at least Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm leaning towards Silencer's thinking at the moment, but a lot depends on just how much documentation you're expecting, and how you intend to organize it. It makes a lot of sense to have everything under a single pseudo-namespace of Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim, so you can have parent-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Main</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Places</tt>) as well as sub-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>). But if there really isn't a need for parent-project pages, then that's just going to lead to a page structure that's all sub-project pages anyway (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Black Marsh/Places</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>), and having each different subspace defined might make more sense in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::The province mods are completely separate, just like the games in the Elder Scrolls series itself. Beyond Skyrim is an umbrella, not a project in its own right, and each mod will have its own partial releases (which is why all links from BS: Bruma already go to pages under BS: Cyrodiil). I think that format would indeed all be double-sub pages, because there would be no need for a BS/Places (if it existed, it would be ''very'' long). The level of detail we should be documenting here is pretty much the same as what we have for Tamriel Rebuilt; quests, places, NPCs, and all gameplay stuff. Conversely, the Beyond Skyrim wiki is the equivalent of lorespace, not a gamespace, and that's the sort of stuff we don't have for TR, because the depths of TR lore are on their own website at the [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/tr-handbook TR Handbook]. For a parallel, if we were to ever document the [http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/44922/? Province: Cyrodiil] mod for Morrowind, we would likely do that with a "Province: Cyrodiil" pseudospace, not a "Project Tamriel" pseudospace, because PC is a mod in its own right despite being under the PT banner. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Enodoc's suggestion sounds sensible to me: separate mods, separate pseudo-namespaces. "Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil/Places" is a bit of a mouthful but it works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that makes sense then. I just finished implementing it. Let me know if there are any issues. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spambot? ==

Not quite sure what to do with [[Special:Contributions/122.173.186.102|this IP]]. It added a corporate LinkedIn link but reverted it. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 05:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

:It's still spam, but perhaps a less severe penalty, maybe just a warning (something for future reference to know that IP has spammed before if the next move is done). Also remove the edits from public view as most spam and vandalism is these days. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Following the link provided, this company is very obviously going to be aware of social media and how it works, so my feeling is that it's a sneaky type of advertising. They know the change will be looked at, even if it's reverted. For that reason alone, I'd suggest revision deletion, and otherwise treat it like any other spammer. If it's only a one-off occurrence, there's not much point in blocking the IP, but we should keep our eyes open for similar behaviour in the near future, whether from that IP or another IP/account. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 16:09, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Account Creation Spam ==

Recently, bots or users have been making it through our captcha check and creating numerous new user accounts. Over the course of the day today, I've tried tweaking the captcha several times, starting with minor changes to the algorithm, then getting a bit more elaborate this last time. Each time, it has been followed within moments by what appear to be new random accounts. This suggests that either there's human involvement in the creations or that the bot is very broad ranging and won't be deterred short of a major change in approach. I could change to a different style of question captcha, or a different captcha completely, but if it's an actual human creating these accounts, that would be a waste of time.

For those who are wondering, they're all coming from completely different IP addresses, and most are using different naming styles, so neither blocking nor title-blocking will be terribly effective. As someone pointed out on the wiki, it's possible that some of these are non-editing accounts that are intended only to use the ESO Build Editor or just to save settings, but I'm not sure that would account for the number of accounts we're seeing, and some of the names seem really spammy in nature. It's hard to say with absolute certainty, though.

In the short term, there's not much to be done that I haven't already. In the long term, however, there are a few potential options, though most have some kind of problem associated with them:
# Put up with it, knowing a vandal could use these accounts to launch a bot attack from multiple accounts at once or in quick succession, potentially becoming a distributed denial-of-service attack (which has never happened, so not likely a big threat). In terms of not locking out legitimate users, this is probably the safest option.
# Require patroller/admin creation of all new accounts. This has several issues, the biggest being that either a communal e-mail box would have to be maintained for these applications, or some other simple mechanism of applying would have to be created. It's also possible that spammer(s) would just continue a variation of what they're doing now, and simply flood the system with requests.
# Create an extension to delete the accounts if they go completely unused and aren't logged into for X days. MediaWiki wasn't really designed with the idea of deleting users, though it is possible. The danger is that a bug in the program could delete legitimate data. Plus, it would require Dave or I to program it in the first place, since I don't see any extension that would work on a large-scale basis. (The only one I found is intended to completely wipe a single user from the database within certain limitations.)
# Switch login/account creation systems completely. The current recommended method is [http://openid.net/what-is-openid/ OpenID], which has a MediaWiki [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenID|extension]] available. That would limit a spammer's ability to create accounts based on having OpenID accounts available, but then it also requires that a real user have an OpenID account. Most do, mind you, whether they realize it or not, since it's linked with numerous common services like Google and Facebook. Of course, that's still potentially prone to abuse, depending on the spammer's ability to get around any given service's account-spam prevention. This would be entirely up to Dave to install, and may cost money...it wasn't entirely clear.

In the past, we've generally gone for option #1, but given the complaints on Discord about the wave of new user accounts, I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion again. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

:Given the relative lack of vandalism or spam by new user accounts I would be very wary of escalating a problem that doesn't ''appear'' to exist. Besides today I have not seen a huge amount (certainly not above "normal" numbers) of new accounts that would be worrying, but I know that a significant percentage of these accounts are by spam-bots that are simply getting blocked by the abuse filter, so do not ''appear'' to be what they are. As far as I can tell, we are also one of the cleanest open wikis on the net, as we've always had diligent recent changes monitors. The recent extreme vandalism is also very very rare, and we won't see the like for a long time once we are past it, certainly not enough to make me think there was something wrong with our account making process (well besides not having blocked the username "Administrator" from use). I thought the whole think was rather contained in nature, with our new Blockers having a hand in stemming the abuse. Option 2 for me is a non-starter, I think the amount of requests would far outweigh the capability of looking at and deciding the merits of them all, plus it removes the idea that we have an "open" wiki, because even if you still didn't need to log in to edit, you would need our "permission" to "join". Option 3 should be left alone too. The reason mediawiki chooses not to allow deletion is because every edit is tied to an account/IP, and deleting them means that the edit no longer has verifiability. While this is not the intention of such a program, the possibility should be locked in a vat of toxic waste and tossed into the Sun. There are problems associated with mass-deletion of vandalism from the history of pages (namely proof of the vandalism), and there will be even more problems with deletion of accounts where there is no proof of maliciousness. I just don't like Option 4, as it ties us to another site/group. It also appears that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo have abandoned it, with the only major user being PayPal. I just don't like the idea of requiring someone to have an account on another site in order to join here, though perhaps we should think of allowing people on Facebook and Google+ to associate their accounts here, and/or have the ''choice'' to use them to log in here.
:The last option still wants to improve our creation process, but it's hard to see how with any captcha as they are always vulnerable to bots. The latest method is two-factor authentication using a phone. This, as far as I can tell, requires human interaction. Required two-factor authentication either via email or phone, is one step that doesn't infringe on our openness, as the likelihood of a potential user not having one or the other is probably zero. If at all possible we could also incentivise it by reducing the time and/or amount of edits required before gaining full freedoms to edit. PS, no idea if that would affect account creation by logged in users, but obviously try to avoid it if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just to clarify, for option #3, I was referring to accounts that have no edit history whatsoever, including any deleted edits or abuse history. Also, even though it isn't required to edit, e-mail verification is already being done by the bots in many cases. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach (Update 15) Release ==

The usual file/data updates for HOTR DLC will be posted below:

:* uespLog Addon -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.20!]]
:* Achievements -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated!]
:* Champion Points -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php Updated!]
:* Skills and Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php Updated!] and double-checked
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Maps -- Nothing to update.
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15/ Uploaded!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done!]
:* Books -- Done! (upload in files and updated database)

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 13:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Is there a process for requesting the <samp>autopatrolled</samp> bit? I do a lot of typo fixing and Style Guide compliance edits, and I think the minor edit stream is annoying to patrollers. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:The process is documented at [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled Users]]. The short of it is: those with patroller permissions <s>get tired of patrolling your edits</s> notice that your edits are usually good, and nominate you to become autopatrolled. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Noted. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 21:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Mine arent fully good yet, at least not until I learn all the differences in templates/procedure. (So apologies to the patrollers in the meantime. I [[Special:Contributions/Timeoin|tend to post a lot]]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:10, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

== Site issues ==

Noticing some major issues this morning - Did we upgrade the wiki software recently or something? All of the sidebar stuff is gone, and I can no longer upload images - also the image upload page no longer lists the licenses in the licensing drop box. In addition, the UESP-specific options that usually appear below the edit window are also gone. Seems like all hidden site pages have been completely reset to defaults. The site would not let me post edits due to "loss of session data", and suggested logging out and back in, and when I did so, it would not let me log back in, claiming I had cookies disabled, which I do not. This occurs on both of my computers. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? - [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 13:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

:Okay, not sure if somebody did something, but a couple hours later, it seems to be working again. Not sure what was up with that... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 15:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::The site was down two Saturdays ago (the 19th August) in the morning, but completely down, not just not displaying properly. Not sure if its relevant but the coincidental timing is there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::: Daveh said on Discord it was due to memcached crashing every Saturday morning. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City PTS ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS. This update may take longer for me since I'm dealing with a newborn most hours of the day so if you're looking for something in particular just let me know.

:* uespLog Addon -- Seems to be working fine on PTS so far.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps - Done! I've added a link to Clockwork city from the base Mundus map but all other locations still need to be added.
:* Skills -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

:Hey Dave, the uploaded icons.zip appears to be only about 2/3 complete. Some folders are missing and it's ~70MB instead of the usual ~90MB. Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks...fixed! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== User Rename ==

Renamed Nephmir to [[User:Starkiller131|Starkiller131]] per their request. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Gift Brainstorming ==

Every year, usually around Christmas time, I like to give out an ES/UESP related gift to thank the site's contributors and fans. For example, last year we did the Tamriel map posters. In deciding what to do this and following years I'm looking for suggestions on what we could do. For now don't worry about the details too much and let your imaginations run wild. For some things there are potential issues like cost, shipping, and licensing issues but those can be dealt with once a gift project is actually chosen and started.

Some of my ideas to start with:

:* '''Coins''' -- I had some coins made for a summer camp project a few years ago and they are relatively easy/cheap with many different construction options.
:* '''Maps''' -- I love maps although since we did one last year there's no rush in doing another one. If we ever do another map I'd like to commission an artist to have a custom one drawn up for us.
:* '''UESP Merchandise''' -- Take just about anything from [http://vistaprint.ca VistaPrint] or similar sites with a UESP logo.
:* '''Books''' -- A more work intensive project but might be nice to see some of the better UESP pages/lore/art in a actual bound book.
:* '''3D Printing''' -- You can do a lot with 3D printing lately using models from games including character models or world spaces. Downside is that this is complex and relatively costly.
:* '''Replicas/Figurines''' -- The minimum order for a custom model is relatively low and within the realm of possibility. Licensing would be the main issue.
:* '''Posters''' -- You could make a poster of just about anything (ex: a nice game screenshot, lore articles, etc...).
:* '''Charity''' -- I like to give a little to charity each year when we can. Past recipients include World Vision, Charity: Water, and Child's Play. This would be in addition to the fan gift.

Looking forward to some of your ideas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

::The UESP Merchandise caught my eye, but its hard to see what would work. A mouse pad or t-shirt would not suit everyone, but perhaps a plate or glass or mug. I think my muffins would benefit in taste sitting on a plate with the logo. Another idea popped in my head when browsing vistaprint; a calendar. There are a couple of versions of the Tamriel calendar to pick from, and then pick 12 of our featured images to use for the months. You could keep it generic by leaving off the weekdays and just starting each on the first, or you could use next years dates to make it more usable. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Here is a collection of community comments I got on this:
:::*I like the idea of coins
:::*Ooh, what a really kind idea. I like the sound of coins too.
:::*I like coins
:::*Comission for a map would be really cool (I am still sad I didn't get one last time :frowning: )
:::*Illustrations and maps are neat
:::*Charity one is the best one
:::*I like the idea of posters, maps and figurines myself
:::*Coins or UESP merchandise. Seriously. I would LOVE a shirt with the UESP logo on it
:::*I also like the idea of coins
:::*I vote for shirts for the best idea now
:::*Maps are pretty gosh darn cool. You can put them on your wall and stuff. Coins are metal. It is harder to put them on walls. If this is a contest of wall-put-ability, I think maps win.
:::*I think artwork that feels like in-game product would be neat. Think a traveler's sketchbook with ink illustrations of creatures and whatnot
:::*Yeah kinda want one of those maps but maybe of all of Tamriel
:::*You know those life sized cardboard cut outs of LotR characters. Lets get those for Shadowscales. Scare the shit out of you whenever you enter your room and there is a shadow of an Argonian standing in the corner.
:::*3D Printing in-game models sounds awesome!
:::*I still like maps. Posters of iconic Vistas are cool too.
:::*As for charity. You go through TES able to kill the wildlife knowing that another will spawn... And another... And another... AND A-BLOODY-NOTHER!! Anyway, this isn't the case for the real world. Help give species a chance to up their spawn chances. As someone studying the animal sciences, I'd say the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust, as they're responsible for saving more species than any other organisation and training people in doing likewise.
:::*i think a picture of all the main races with a chunk of the province they're from behind them could make for a cool poster
:::*I would enjoy having an actual leather bound copy of an Elder Scrolls book. I may have to make one some day.
:::*like the idea of a figurine, Pelinal Whitestrake maybe?
:::*Coins and/or other in-universe memorabilia gets my vote
:::*I would adore some Septims.
:::*i wanted a big ass tamriel map for my wall last year, and i didnt got one. i even wanted to buy something like this but... no luck. maybe this year i can. soooo.. i will go with the map thing. Some septims would be nice too, tho.
:::--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I like the idea of UESP-branded wearables or coffee mugs. Wearables do have the issue of sizing and such that have to be accounted for, where mugs are fairly universal, so there's that to consider if you go for merchandise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::*I love and adore the idea of coins. The various coins which Bethesda and/or ZOS have produced to promote the various games are now collectors' items. I think we should avoid maps, because we Did That Last Year. The UESP Discord logo would look great on one side of a coin, with... I dunno, the head of Martin Septim on the back :P (Or Hermaeus-Mora, as the Guardian of Knowledge?) Can you also get writing along the edge? If so, UNOFFICIAL ELDER SCROLLS PAGES 2017 should go there :)
:::::*I would also support the idea of UESP merchandise, but I think this should be for us to purchase ourselves, e.g. through Spreadshirt. This would not make any money for the UESP, but would at least break even. In this way, we could get them in custom colours, with our UESP affiliation on. e.g. "UESP Wiki Admin" / "UESP Wiki Editor" / "UESP Forums Moderator" / "UESP Discord Admin" / "UESP Guildmaster" / "UESP Guild Officer" / "UESP Guild Member", etc. People with multiple affiliations could either position all of the text using Spreadshirt's layout tool, or pick their favourite one.
:::::*Mugs are also great, but would be super-expensive to post, even within Canada. Again, I think they should be for users to purchase themselves. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 08:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Minor Issue (Resolved) ==

As Alarra recently corrected [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Merdyndril&curid=167488&diff=1681627&oldid=1681624 here], there as a circumstance whereby they were attributed as being the author of [[ON:Message to Jena|Message to Jena]]. (See: [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Message_to_Jena&oldid=1681625 here]). The problem was that not only was it wrong, its wrong nowhere else. Except [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena right here]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
:An addendum, for clarity: there is little chance this was accidental. [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena?oldid=1894979 this was the date their page was created]. The Maulborn Cultist, [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Merdyndril?oldid=2264203 was not created until a year after]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 08:18, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::While it's likely that you're correct, this particular instance seems trivial. A note will, after all, be pretty much the same from one wiki to the next. It isn't like they copied an entire dungeon walkthrough wholesale, or used our images or what have you, at least not in this instance. For more significant instances, I believe Dave said he prefers to handle these issues himself, so I'd suggest e-mailing him or flagging him down on Discord. That policy may be out of date, though. If he refers you back to us, Atvelonis and I have spoken on occasion, so I'm happy to bring any concerns up with him if needed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::: Just to clarify Timeoin... you're complaining that Wikia copied the ''links'' of a UESP book page page on their own site's book page... back in 2015 (when you were still an admin over there and could have checked the page for plagiarism before you edited it).

::: Is this really of note for the AN board? Exactly what are you looking to achieve?

::: What I find odd is that when we were both admins on Wikia, you very rarely spoke up about the vast amounts of actual UESP plagiarism that was taking place there. I don't recall you ever reverting UESP content. It was left to the other admins to deal with. So why is it a concern now? You speak to Atvelonis on Discord, would it not make more sense to take it up with him?

::: I don't wish to start any drama, but you're clearly bitter about what happened to you over there. Which is why you're taking any opportunity get some sort of revenge. Be it the constant badmouthing, anonymous editing over there or threads like this. Its not healthy. Take it from someone who was in the same boat, but in a '''much''' worse position than you was - you need to move on. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::::Since I keeping getting pinged on Discord, here are my thoughts on the matter. Even if the UESP was the source of the mistake on Wikia, which is possible, I don't think that arguing over such a minuscule point is worth anyone's time. As others have stated above, it's just a link, and a pretty old one too. My inclination here would be to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]: it's entirely possible that same authorial assumption was made independently by users on both sites. Users add plagiarized UESP content to Wikia all the time, and I make an effort to catch this early on, especially when it comes to images. If you find something that is genuinely worth reporting, by all means inform me of it, but I don't think that being this pedantic helps anyone. —[[User:Atvelonis|Atvelonis]] ([[User talk:Atvelonis|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::::: I agree with Jimeeee. I apologise wholeheartedly. Also - I should not have pinged you, Atvelonis, and will not do so again. So ... yeah, please consider this closed? (Changed the header too - since that helps ''noone'') [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 17:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

== Move Request ==

Hello. Could an admin please move {{Deleted|Captain Velyna}} to [[Online:Captain Velya|Captain Velya]]? Velya is the proper in-game name. (Evidence: ESO Log Data). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 06:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:Could someone please also move {{deleted|ON:Domihaus (set)}} to [[ON:Domihaus|Domihaus]]? They are the same page. Thanks :) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 10:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

::I've merged Timeoin's second request because I want to make a general request that an admin start merging and deleting some pages that have been marked so. These actions can only be done by an admin, and there are a lot of duplicate pages sitting idle, as well as merge requests that haven't been done yet. Not doing these things is starting to cause a serious backlog of follow up actions, links to the wrong duplicate page appearing, as well as the confusion that is given by having empty pages being filled in when the information already exists elsewhere. There are dozens more pages I have identified as needing deleted, and have put off marking them so as to make it easier for an admin to do each page properly without knowing there are over 100 more pages marked for deletion (which there are). [[:Category:Marked for Deletion]], [[:Category:To Be Merged]]. PS A particular bugbear on merges for me is the Desolate Mine place and quest, marked for renaming by Legoless more than 2 years ago with no logical or given objection to it happening, yet no action taken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:11, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Bugbear slain. I started on the pages marked for deletion the other day, but that'll definitely take some time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Username Usurping ==

There was an account called "Zenith" made in 2009, with no contributions, and I was wondering whether I could usurp that username for a UESP account. {{unsigned|76.66.92.8|00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)}}
:Also worth noting is that this request was originally made on our Discord channel, where this user is already known as Zenith to the majority of the people on the server. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::I confirmed that the user hasn't logged in since 2009 and has no edit history, so I've gone ahead and renamed them. You may now create an account as Zenith. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City (Update 16) ==

Another ESO DLC is out today and so the usual round of updates:

:* uespLog -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.31]]! (1.31 has bug fix for guild store purchase bug)
:* Achievements --[http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated]! (new icons still need to be uploaded)
:* Skills -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills Updated]!
:* Skill Coeffients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php Done] (and checked)
:* Champion Points -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoCps Updated]!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16/ Uploaded]!
:* Books -- Done! (book text uploaded and updated in database)
:* Maps -- Done! (4 maps updated, still working on adding all locations)
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done]!
:* Items -- Done!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Translating Team for Italy ==

My friends and me would love to start translating UESP in italian.
We're good at english and we can write in HTML. We're 5 or 6 at the moment, but we can recruit more people with our skills.
I'm opening this discussion for everyone who's willing to take part in our project.
[[User:Undriel|Undriel]] ([[User talk:Undriel|talk]]) 00:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Count on me! [[User:Daffodill|Daffodill]] ([[User talk:Daffodill|talk]]) 01:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::I'd be happy to work on the italian translation [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 01:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::It sounds interesting [[User:Fenerevar|Fenerevar]] ([[User talk:Fenerevar|talk]]) 10:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm in. [[User:CurseMyName|CurseMyName]] ([[User talk:CurseMyName|talk]]) 11:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} There are no official steps to creating a translation project (the Portuguese one was a test) but unless there are any objections from admins I'll set it up in a few days once I've done most of the ESO updates from the latest DLC. Is there one person who is willing/able to take the lead/admin position for the project? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Thank you a lot. If the translation project will be approved I'll gladly take the admin position [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 10:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)LadyLigeia

{{od}} The Italian UESPWiki has been setup at [http://it.uesp.net/wiki/Pagina_principale it.uesp.net]...hopefully you can forgive the delay as I was focussed on some ESO work backlog last week. I've imported the MediaWiki and Template namespaces but nothing else at the moment. If you run into any issues on the new site let me know here or poke me at [mailto:dave@uesp.net dave@uesp.net]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

== Request for revocation of account rights. ==

After thinking over my ultimate place in the universe for a long, hard while, I've decided that this evening I'm ready to return to the UESPWiki and work on some of Jeancey's Morrowind Overhaul Project and give some love to my favorite game. I've also decided to do it without the pressure that I've always felt by being an active and regular member of staff, and I want to get back to just editing and enjoying myself.

After many long months of thinking about it on a self-imposed break, I've decided that I want to voluntarily relinquish all elevated user rights currently on my account, including my patroller rights, blocker rights, and any others that may exist that I've forgotten exist.

I am aware that, should I want them, I'll have to be renominated and be put up to a community vote again, but for the foreseeable future, I'm not at all interested in anything to do with them and I ask that an administrator handle this request at their first convenient moment, in accordance with my wishes.

Many thanks, -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 18:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Given that Damon has already qualified as a Patroller, I'd suggest that in conjunction with this request, we grant him autopatrolled status. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:: I've removed your Patroller and Blocker rights, Damon. I would support autopatrolled status if someone wants to make the [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled_Users#Nominations|nomination]]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I'll go ahead and do that, if Damon doesn't object. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

== 2018 Fan Gift ==

Christmas and the new year is quickly coming and I've been thinking about what to do for the UESP fan gift this year. I like the suggestion of a calendar made in the previous gift suggestion topic and am leaning strongly in that direction.

:* 2018 Year Calender
:* Can use Tamriel names for months and weekdays (or perhaps in addition to real names?)
:* Include both real and Tamriel holidays (make it obvious which is which?)
:* Artwork Could Be:
::* Fan Created
::* Screenshots
::* Composite (made up of Bethesda copyrighted images and others)
:: I'd rather stay away from using Bethesda original artwork to avoid the legal issues and would prefer the first 2 if we had the option.

Assuming people think this is a good idea I'd like to get started on choosing the 13 pieces of artwork for the calendar (12 months + title page) and the calendar details. Note that assuming we do a 10x17" wall calendar the artwork would have to be of reasonable size/quality.

Time flies so if we could decide on everything by the end of November that would permit printing by the start of December and hopefully shipping before Christmas. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

:What if the images were a selection of the UESP's Featured Images, where possible? We can throw together a quick vote of which ones look cooler for any particular month or season to match the feel of that time. Or move on to not-FI images if needed. Throw something [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|like this]] in for October and Halloween, for instance? Also, I would want the calendar to be completely Tamrielic, no Earthly times on it! -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 04:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, that's a good idea. I assume most (all?) of the Featured Images are screenshots correct? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Another quick thought...it may be a good idea to have several images per month composited together, especially if some of them are lower resolution. For example, we could group 3/4/5 Halloween related images for the month of October. So more options for each month would be a good thing. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've gone through the FI's and picked some that I think a more identifiable with the seasons/events. This is not a comprehensive list, a lot of the pure NPC/creature ones I left out as they are focused on that subject alone.

Winter 5: [[:File:SR-npc-Brelyna Maryon 03.jpg|Frost Atronach being summoned]], [[:File:SR-interior-Deepwood Redoubt 02.jpg|snow in a cave]], [[:File:DB-place-Edla's House.jpg|snow on a house]], [[:File:SR-creature-Ice Wraith.jpg|ice wraith with the moon over snowy mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-Alduin's Bane 02.jpg|dragons fighting on a snowy mountain]]

Spring 10: [[:File:ON-quest-The One That Got Away 02.jpg|sunrise over a lake]], [[:File:SR-place-Solitude.jpg|Solitude on a nice day]],
[[:File:ON-place-Alessia Bridge.jpg|sunny day (trees look autumny though)]], [[:File:ON-quest-Daughter of Seamount 02.jpg|sunny and cloudy day]], [[:File:SR-place-Druadach Mountains.jpg|the misty mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-The Cursed Tribe 02.jpg|a giant throwing a tantrum near some Orcs]], [[:File:SI-place-Mount Sheogorath Summit.jpg|colourful countryside]], [[:File:OB-quest-Alteration Training.jpg|bright day over a lake]], [[:File:MW-place-Lake Masobi.jpg|misty day over a lake]], [[:File:OB-quest-A Brush with Death 02.jpg|vivid trolls]]

Easter, only 1: [[:File:OB-quest-Bear Season.jpg|the anti-Easter message (bears eat sheep)]]

Summer 5: [[:File:MW-place-Ghostfence.jpg|the dust near Ghostfence]], [[:File:ON-place-Weeping Giant.jpg|stone giant taking a nap]], [[:File:ON-place-Upper Craglorn.jpg|a sunny river]], [[:File:OB-quest-Go Fish.jpg|a fish with big teeth on a sunny day]], [[:File:MW-place-Nchuleftingth.jpg|A sunny day over Nchuleftingth]]

Autumn 5: [[:File:ON-place-Windmill (Davon's Watch).jpg|windmill with moons between spokes]], [[:File:SR-quest-Dawnguard (quest).jpg|vampires with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:SR-quest-Robber's Gorge.jpg|bandits with the aurora borealis and a moon]], [[:File:SR-place-Shrine of Azura 02.jpg|Azura's statue with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:OB-quest-Peryite.jpg|Peryite's statue at night]]

Halloween 4: [[:File:SR-npc-Ancano 08.jpg|some eerie magical swirls]], [[:File:ON-quest-A Ghost from the Past 04.jpg|Sithis]], [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|werewolf with both moons]], [[:File:DB-quest-Clean Sweep.jpg|ash spawn crawling out of the ground in a tomb]]

A lot of the spring/summer ones could be one or the other. February could use a winter or a springy one. Halloween is the only event that has decent representation as the games lend themselves well to that "scary" theme. A Christmas or Easter one might need to be sourced from our other images. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

[[Image:2018_Calender_Month_Test_1.jpg|240px|right]]
:Great! Another thought of image materials are the various high-quality screenshots that people take of Skyrim and ESO with various mods/graphical enhancements. These would require the permission of the screenshot owner. I'll see if I can track down some good ones and get permission.
: I've made a very quick/initial drawing of a calendar page as I envisioned it. It is still very rough but feedback is wanted sooner rather than later. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. I could advertise it on social media and add "Submit high quality screenshots to us to use in the calendar" to possibly get some nice ones sent to us. If we were to say, offer anyone we used an image from a copy of the calendar, we could probably get a few. Would you be okay with that? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:32, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I thought the license for screenshots gave the UESP the copyright, "the copyright for this particular composition is held by UESP", while giving Bethesda copyright on the components. Like any edit, images have always been treated as belonging to the wiki once uploaded, for us to use as and where we think suitable. Plus, even for Skyrim, a lot of image takers are no longer active. AKB's proposal seems good, at most you'd be giving out 12 images to non-UESP people, and all of them could be evaluated for use on the wiki itself even if they fail to get used in the calendar. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::::re: AKB's suggestion of getting screenshots from fans, I was thinking the same thing so go ahead and see what people can send us. Regarding the SS permission I was referring to images found outside of the UESP. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 

::::Another more refined sample: [[Image:2018_Calendar_Sample_3.png|240px|right]]
:::::* Tried to give it a more lore/medieval look with parchment background and imperfect grid lines.
:::::* Added site logo,
:::::* Originally I was thinking of having text box with the some text from the UESP's relevant article. Unsure if that is too much or better to go with just a title/page link or perhaps nothing at all.
:::: Keep the feedback, ideas, and more pictures coming! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

 
::::: Dave, I like the parchment background with UESP logo, but with the white squares. I'd mock one up if I was on my Mac (which has Photoshop), but all I have on this PC is Paint. My reasoning is that I love the UESP "branding", however a lot of people need to write on their calendars and this is easier to do with a white background. Also, the imperfect grid lines will make a lot of us twitch! Thus I feel that parchment background with UESP logo but a white calendar grid section is the best compromise. I would like a title to each picture - including which game it is from - but I don't feel we need a huge box explaining what it is, let alone a wiki URL which is difficult to type. If the wiki's search function is working properly, people will be able to look up "Brelyna Maryon" and "Frost Atronach" easily enough :) [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 22:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: A couple more image suggestions:
::::::Spring: [[:File:SR-creature-Birds.jpg|Skyrim birds]], [[:File:RG-place-Shrine of Morwha.jpg|Shrine of Morwha (mother goddess)]]
::::::Autumn: [[:File:OB-quest-Information at a Price.jpg|Skingrad]], [[:File:OB-quest-Azani Blackheart 3.jpg|Ayleid ruins]]
::::::Winter: [[:File:ON-place-The Black Forge.jpg|Coldharbour]]
::::::—[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::A more refined draft with some of the suggestions implemented. [[Image:UESP Fan Gift 2018 - Month Test 4.jpg|240px|right]]
:::::::Barring any suggestions that require large changes I'd like to finalize the overall design and move to choosing the month images. There is also the question of exactly what holidays to include:
::::::::* All ES lore holidays
::::::::* Only Major ES lore holidays
::::::::* Real world American/Canadian holidays
::::::::* Other real world holidays
::::::: -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 
::::::::I'm against the inclusion of real-world holidays, since we don't knowfrom which country the winners will be. I like the style, however -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 20:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I agree with Sarthes to exclude real world holidays. I still like a small lore explanation on the calender like in the second mock-up, but maybe that will distact too much from the image. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

: The first draft of the calendar is available at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft1.pdf'''. Please review it and put any comments here.
:* There were a lot of great images submitted and it was hard to pick and choose just 13 of them. If you feel an image doesn't fit well let me know and we can easily find another one.
:* Spelling, grammar and lore corrections are welcome (I've already spotted a couple myself).
:* Better or more accurate descriptions for some of the images would be good. I just guessed at some of the locations. In particular:
:::* January - Where is this?
:::* February - Where is this?
:::* April - Dragon names?
:::* July - Where is this?
:::* August - Where is this?
:::* September - Better caption?
:::* October - Where is this?
:Right now I'm aiming to print 250 of them and mail them out like the maps last year. Now is a good time for people to start thinking about how they wish to distribute them. The more I can get mailed out in December the better! I also don't want as many left over at the end as the maps last year...I still have about 100 maps that can be sent out if people want them. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::January and July look like Falkreath hold to me, and part of the same general area, but can't pin it down. The dragons in April look like Alduin at the Throat of the World. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that mods are involved there, as there are no dragons that white (the frost dragon is white but with large dark coloured parts), and it's breathing fire which a frost dragon shouldn't do. I don't think that means it should be excluded though, but I can see a red sword in the lower right sky. September, it looks indoors, so it could be a frustrated mage trying to light a hearth. October is Heartwood Mill in the Rift, from Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

:::January is somewhere near [[Skyrim:Evergreen Grove|Evergreen Grove]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-51184|y=-61784}}. February is [[Online:Razak's Wheel|Razak's Wheel]], I think. April is [[Skyrim:Alduin|Alduin]] and [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax|Paarthurnax]] fighting at the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]]. That red dagger is a result of a spell I created. If it looks out-of-place, it can be photoshopped away. July is [[Skyrim:Lake Ilinalta|Lake Ilinalta]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-1942|y=-53920}}. August is likely to be [[Online:Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)|Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)]]. I highly suspect October to be [[Skyrim:Half-Moon Mill|Half-Moon Mill]].
:::Are the Summoning Days really specific to the Daggerfall City-State? I always thought they were the same for all of Nirn. Also, the Gauntlet at Sun's Dusk 2nd is also Boethiah's Summoning Day. Hogithum at First Seed 21st is Azura's. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! For the summoning days I believe they were only actually used in the Daggerfall game but like you say are probably Tamriel wide. We can either omit them entirely or I can add them as another type/color holiday to make it easier to fit in with the other holidays you mentioned (I might try that and see how it looks). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::With SarthesArai's help, I found the exact location January was taken from, and I can confirm that his description and coordinates are correct. July is also Ilinalta, though the coordinates given are a bit off. I used {{Map Link|x=-18000|y=-53000|zoom=16|ns=Skyrim}}. I also double-checked in the game and October is definitely [[Skyrim:Heartwood Mill|Heartwood Mill]], as Silencer suggested. Are there any other Skyrim locations that need double-checked? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've made all the suggested changes with the only outstanding location is February...I don't think it is Razak's Wheel as I went all over and couldn't find the view. I'm pretty sure it is a view to an unreachable location in a delve somewhere but I can't quite remember it. If I can verify the location in the next day or so I'll upload an updated draft of the calendar. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:Correction: It's Klathzgar, near the Skyshard, looking outside the playable area. Thanks to [[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer]] for actually finding it. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

::That's it! I asked on the ESO sub-reddit and someone answered pretty fast as well. I'll get an updated draft up tomorrow. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:::The latest calendar draft is up at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft3.pdf'''. Unless there are other changes/corrections to make I'll be submitting it for printing in a few days. I'll post another topic regarding the distribution of calendars (it will be the same as the map poster last year). As a last minute update I added the birthsigns to each month (they can be easily removed if people think they don't fit well). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I like the birthsigns, but I think they might fit better with the month name, instead of on one of the calendar squares (and then they would be in the same spot for each month). --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 17:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::Another way would be to have the birthsign image as a background, though only as a faint outline, or even just the constellation. I don't think that would take too much away from the desired white background boxes for writing in. Faldar's Tooth doesn't really help place Heartwood Mill, "on the shore of Lake Honrich" or "near Riften" might be better. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Yah, I didn't like the location of the birthsigns either so I've tried moving them up to the title line which looks a lot better I think. See '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft4.pdf''' for the latest. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} That looks better than I thought it could be up there. It has my vote as ready to go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:I agree, this looks really nice! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

::Barring any last second fixes I'd like to send the calendar to the printers tomorrow and get started on the various distribution methods. Ideally I'd like to start shipping at least some of them before Christmas. I'll start a new AN topic tomorrow regarding that. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Final calendar release is at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf''' (or higher resolution at http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final.pdf if anyone would like to print it themselves). Note that I had to add 2 new images/pages at the end as the printer was only able to print 24 or 28 page sizes. Hopefully there are no obvious errors for those as the print job has already been started. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I was just wondering: where were those final two images taken? Or, if you don't know, do you have the links for them on the wiki? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:::::The first one appears to have been taken from [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Overlook|Dragon Bridge Overlook]] - checked in-game and you can get a very similar view from there - or perhaps somewhere nearby like [[Skyrim:Cliffside Retreat|Cliffside Retreat]]. The second is in [[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern|Moss Mother Cavern]]. (I play this game way too much.) ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::I was thinking the second one looked like Moss Mother Cavern, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't find that exact image on the wiki, so I thought maybe I was wrong. Thanks, Alarra! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Got mine in the mail yesterday and it looks fantastic in person! Just wanted to leave a quick thanks, Dave! Good work on the calendars this year! :) -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 05:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

== Paarthurnax ==

The Blades demand for the removal of [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax (dragon)]] has seen the page blanked 6 times since last December, with only one constructive edit in that time. I think it needs some additional protection for a while. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Agreed. Delphine is such a tryhard. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::I've semi-protected it for a year, and we'll see how it fares after that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::Good god I can't believe people are still butthurt over this. I remember arguing with people on the official lore board about it back when Skyrim came out. Can you at least block anonymous edits to the page? --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 22:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::::That was just a joke, there's no way to guess what reason the page was blanked for as none was given. Semi-protection, which the page now has, does exactly that, as well as blocking brand new accounts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::Some people were seriously apoplectic about the Blades/Paarthurnax thing, certainly enough to vandalize a wiki. I just figured they'd found something else to be mad about by now. --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 23:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Inappropriate Username ==

Wanted to bring to the attention of Admins an inappropriate username creation. [[Special:Log/newusers]] link for easier viewing. User name begins with "Tom". [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 05:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

:Done, thanks. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, didnt wan't to say their name. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]])

== Legends Card Data and Popup ==

People asked for this a while ago and I'm finally getting to working on it. This is just the first step of many so if you have suggestions/ideas on the existing implementation or where it goes from here don't hesitate to say something.

:* List of cards can be seen at [[Special:LegendsCardData]]. Hover over the card name for the popup and click the name for card details.
:* Linking to a specific card can be done using the custom <code><nowiki><legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard></nowiki></code> tag which looks like: <legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard>.
:* Card data has been initially populated with the saved MetaTemplate data on each card page and is not yet complete.
:* Do we need a "missing card" image or is it fine to just display nothing?
:* Are the card popup images a good size? I've resized them from the wiki images to load faster.
:* An add/edit card data feature is planned in order to let editors manage updating existing card data and adding new ones.
:* Similarly, a card search feature is planned.
:* A deck builder is possible but is a much larger piece of work to be considered in the farther future as time permits.

If you notice anything broken or not working as you think it should let me know as well...I haven't done much cross browser/platform testing yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:59, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:Oooh, this looks really nice Daveh! The size of the pop-up images are quite good, they aren't much different in-game. I am not sure if a "missing card" image is necessary. I think that the benefits are that it will make us sure the pop-up is not broken and it might give us some incentive to find the missing images faster. All in all, it looks great! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:: A bunch more changes today:
:::* All card data should be up to date so far as I know it.
:::* Added the edit and create forms. Currently wiki admins have access to this but I can give specific editors access if there's any active Legends users. There's the "Create Card" in the upper right of the main card table and an "Edit Card" in the upper right of each card details page.
:::* Added a simple <legendscard card='unknown'>Unknown Card</legendscard>.
:: A reminder that I haven't played very much Legends myself so if there are obvious omissions in anything let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I would like to get access to the Create/Edit option at the [[Special:LegendsCardData]] page. I am one of the most active Legends contributors and I am also the one adding the new cards from the upcoming expansion. So it would be easiest if I can add the card to both places at once. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

::::You should now have the ability to edit and create cards. If this doesn't work for you please let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::It seems like the tag isn't properly processing template parameters. <code><nowiki>{{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code>, for example, produces: {{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>.

:::::Ilaro also pointed out that the link should go to the card's wiki page rather than Special:LegendsCardData. I'm not sure if we'd have a need to link to the card data for any reason, so the link can probably just be changed directly, but you could perhaps have it as an option in case there is some such need in the future, if it's not too difficult. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::Both of these should now be fixed. Use the <code>usedatalink="1"</code> parameter if you would like to link to the card data page, otherwise it links to the card article. Note that if there are other custom uesp tags that need template parameter parsing let me know (like <nowiki><esoitemlink></nowiki>). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I found another problem: cards like {{Legends PU|Archer's Gambit}} or {{Legends PU|Crusader's Assault}} are showing the right pop-up, but they are linked to the [[Legends:Archer|Archer]]/[[Legends:Crusader|Crusader]] page instead of their card page. This also causes {{Legends PU|Alik'r Survivalist}} to link to the not existing "Alik" page instead of [[Legends:Alik'r Survivalist]].
:::::::Another problem are the Werewolf cards. Both {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Nord)}} and {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Werewolf)}} have a unknown card pop-up. These are, however, two separate 'entities' and should have their respective card image pop-up. On the other hand, {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress}} shows the werewolf card, which should not be the case, because it is the link to the disambiguation page. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed both issues. For Aela it was due to me incorrectly importing just the one base card so I renamed that one and created the other one. Both should now have correct popups. The disambiguation popup is fixed however your local browser cache will likely still display the issue until you clear the cache or the image expires. Note that to fix both issues you just have to re-save any page that uses those cards. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The fixes seem to work! However, I should have been more clear about the werewolves. {{Card|Aela's Huntmate}}, {{Card|Circle Initiate}}, {{Card|Companion Harbinger}}, {{Card|Grim Shield-Brother}} and {{Card|Whiterun Protector (Werewolf)|Whiterun Protector}} suffer from the same problem as Aela. (that should be all of them) --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:57, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
:These should now be all fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
::Just when you thought you were done.... Cards with disambiguations in the name face a special challenge, in that the disambiguation needs to be both present and absent. Look, for example, at <legendscard card="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>. As it stands now, it links to [[Legends:Skeleton]] even though it gets its data from [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I'm not sure how that magic works, but it should really link to [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I can see three potential fixes for this:
::#Change the magic renaming to link to the same page it's getting the data from.
::#Change all the card names to use the exact same as the page names. If you go that route, though, you'd need to give us the ability to edit the name used in <code>card="''name''"</code>, as well as the wiki link itself, in [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?edit=Skeleton the edit page] so we can update page names if they move around and fix any that don't currently follow this pattern.
::#Provide an actual <code>link</code> parameter. This is potentially more flexible, but personally, I think this would end up over-complicating a lot of things, both on your end and on the wiki end, so one of the first two is probably the better choice.
::– [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

:::Today I added all new obtainable cards to the Card Database. However, I ran into two problems. Cards with an apostrophe in the name (for example: [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Mecinar%27s+Will]] ) do not link properly to the right image file. Secondly, there are two new creature types in the expansion, but I could only choose types from a dropdown list and not add a new one. You are probably busy, but I like to point out that the problem from RH (one post above this) is also still present. See whenever you have time/feel like to fix it. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added basic card filters to the card table display. Let me know if you need/want more filters and what specifically. Added the 2 new creature types...if any list is missing something just let me know. Explicitly listing what items makes it much easier for me since I don't play Legends much and am not to familiar with it. Fixed the issue with single quotes in item names...let me know if you run into similar issues (just was due to various text escaping errors). Haven't fixed RobinHood's issue but will look at it and figure out the best course of action shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 22:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Regarding the card links for disambiguation pages I've decided to go with a 4th option at least for now. Part of the issue is that the card link code doesn't access the legends card database and I'd prefer to keep it that way. That means the first option won't work. The second option would work but it depends whether editors want to go that route (I can add name changing to the card edit code as needed). The third option would work fine but it really just pushes the problem onto the editor or makes the card link template that much more complicated.

So option I've implemented for now is to hardcode a list of all cards that have disambiguation pages and check in that list whenever a card link is parsed. So far I just have 4 cards in that list:
:* Bandit Ambush => card
:* Chaurus => creature
:* Skeleton => card
:* Swims-at-Night => card
If there are more cards needed in this list, either now or in future sets, just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:Great! Some small notes: Chaurus (creature) has been changed some time ago to Chaurus (card) for consistency and the original is now a redirect. I also have some issue with <code><nowiki>{{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code> that it is still linking to the disambig page (see {{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>), while <code><nowiki><legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard></nowiki></code> is not (see <legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>). At last, is there any way to remove cards from LegendsCardData? Because this one is now split up into two cards [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Aela%27s+Huntmate]] (the Nord and the Werewolf version). Thanks in advance for the help! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::Fixed the Chaurus card type for the disambiguation page, the MetaTemplate issue with disambiguation links and I've manually deleted the linked card. For now cards can only be deleted or renamed manually...no reason other than to limit the amount of data loss that could happen (can't just revert edits like with wiki pages). For now just let me know of any deletes/renames required and these features can be added in time if desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Image Undeletion ==

The image File:SkyrimEchmer.jpg was deleted on the 4th November, however, the [[General:Uutak Mythos|Uutak Mythos]] is and has been linking it since 2nd September. The log doesn't say why it was deleted, so can someone look, and if possible, restore the image if it isn't too late, or if the reason it was deleted would see it deleted again (eg duplication), remove the links here and on that page. My apologies if it was me who marked it for deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:You listed it for speedy deletion with the reason "duplicate file, other one is in the naming style of similar images" and AKB deleted it. I thought there was a way to view deleted images, but if there is, I can't find it, so I've restored the image for the time being. If you can find what it's a duplicate of, re-link it to the correct place and we can re-delete this one. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks. The duplicate image was autolinked from the file page, and has now been replaced on the Uutak Mythos page. I've removed the link above so it's clear to redelete. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Done. And thanks for looking into that. I was just on my way out to dinner, so I didn't have a lot of time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

== UESP Fan Gift (2018 Calendar) ==

The [http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf calendar] has been finished and sent off for printing so we can get started on figuring out who the lucky people are that get one. I've ordered 250 calendars so if we distribute them roughly the same as the map last year I shouldn't have any left over at the end. Like last year distribution will be grouped into a few categories:

:* Anyone who submitted an image used in the calendar (12 people).
:* All admins/mods/guild leaders of UESP (if you aren't sure if this includes you just [mailto:dave@uesp.net ask me]).
:* Random draw for everyone is open at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] and a number of winners will be drawn on Dec 15th (so I can start mailing them before Christmas).
:* Any wiki editor in the 2017 year can submit their name at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] for a different random draw on Dec 15th for just wiki editors.
:* Any other contest that might be run by our forums, social media sites, or ESO guilds. If you running a content let me know and we can figure out how many calendars we can reserve for you.
:* Special people in the Elder Scrolls universe (Bethesda, Zenimax Online, fan sites, etc...). [mailto:dave@uesp.net Let me know] if you have a suggestion here!

Calendar winners can use the [https://goo.gl/forms/xZg2kcQa0pgh6nVb2 Mailing Address Collection Form (2018 Calendar)] to submit their address so I can mail the calendar to them.

I also still have about 100 maps from last year I can include for people as desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
::If you can swing it, I would love to get another copy of the map - mine got damaged when I moved between states. --[[User:SCarverOrne|SCarverOrne]] ([[User talk:SCarverOrne|talk]]) 03:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

:At least the Morning Star, Sun's Dawn, First Seed, and Rain's Hand images were all submitted by me, but I do not need 4 calendars... xD -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
::As an idea for the last point, maybe the creators of the most popular mods/addons? Like Arthmoor or the creator of FTC? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I received the calendars last Friday and they look great! I'm mailing out the first batch of 22 calendars today/tomorrow to everyone who has filled out the mailing address form so far. Hopefully at least some of you will get them by Christmas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Being just next door in Ottawa, I got mine today and it looks fantastic! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've performed the random draw just now with the 757 unique e-mails submitted from the form. 36 calendars went to wiki users and 25 went to random users. Everyone has been notified by e-mail to submit their mailing address on the collection form. After all calendars have been claimed from contests sometime in January I'll do another random draw to get rid of any left over calendars. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

:Will send out another 70 or so calendars this afternoon and that will likely be the last batch shipped out before the New Year. An update on what charities we've supported this year (it's hard to choose as there's so many good organizations to give to). I've donated $750 to [https://www.charitywater.org Charity Water] and through [http://childsplaycharity.org/ Child's Play] I've purchased $300 worth of toys for The Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. Note that if anyone is interested in running charitable events through Child's Play or a similar organization anytime just let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

== Skyrim Creation Club Purchases ==
Since Creation Club mods are "official" content (or close enough) the UESP's offer to purchase games for admins and active editors applies to them was well. At a minimum we should make sure that at least one admin/editor has a copy of each CC mod to make sure we can add/test content for the wiki. So far only Legoless has asked and received money for CC purchases and I don't know which mods he has purchased.

If you are an admin or ''active'' editor and would like to be reiumbursed for CC purchases just [mailto:dave@uesp.net let me know]. Usually I just send money via Paypal unless there is a way to gift CC credits somehow. People how have CC mods should also post here so we know which content we have and what we might not. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:I'd be interested. I've dabbled with them but only taken the ones that were free on offer. If I decide to take up your offer I'll email you, as anyone should if they wish to keep anonymous. Also, should I do it, I will purchase all currently available ones that I haven't got. The numbers certainly don't appear to be high as there has been little activity on documenting them, so it would be good to know what creations everyone purchases. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I'm also interested. I currently have Survival Mode, Arcane Accessories, Dwarven Armored Mudcrab, and Stendarr's Hammer (which I purchased with initial credits). Creation Club is easy content to document, so I'll certainly help out with those pages. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::: I have access to all CC mods to date and can verify as needed. Lots of information to add too, but it seems Fullerton may beat me to it! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I now own all current CC content. I'm not playing Skyrim at the moment but I can now pop in and check/verify stuff if anyone needs. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ebony blade victims ==

I recently found out that the randomly encountered Stray dogs are valid targets for the Ebony blade which also uniquely respawn. I added the information to the [[Skyrim:Ebony_Blade_Victims|Ebony blade victims]] page but my edit was [[Skyrim_talk:Ebony_Blade_Victims#Respawning_blade_targets|revoked in good faith by another editor]] for not meeting the criteria. As far as I can tell there was no mention of such a unlimited (they respawn) target for the quest that also means no other named NPCs need to be disabled. What is the policy for adding the information to that page and how, if possible, can I rephrase or change the information so that it would meet the criteria on that page? With best regards, --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 20:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:The best place to ask this is on the talk page of the article. Complaining to the admins because your edits were reverted and then subsequently explained is not how you go about understanding an article and its purpose. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::SkyHiRider, you might be better-advised to take it to the article's [[Skyrim talk:Ebony Blade Victims|talk page]], which more people will be watching and so will be a better place to expect a reply. The reason that the administrator noticeboard isn't the right place for this is because the AN's purpose is for Administrator-only actions, but the mistake was made due to being unaware so it's understandable and completely fine as long as the mistake isn't repeated. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 10:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

::: Understood, will keep it to the article talk page. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 23:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Mobile ads issue ==

A couple times the past week, I've hit some kind of ad that redirects me to a giveaway/scam site. Example: [https://imgur.com/kvsLmWm]. Both the times it happened, I was on Safari for iOS, refreshing the Recent Changes page. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 15:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

: A user mentions having a similar problem on [http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40436 this forum post] and manages to provide a link to the offending webpage. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== De-Rank Request: Fullerton ==

In light of Fullerton's recent actions on both our Discord server and another one, the Discord staff are suggesting a removal of his Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki. There is precedent on both the wiki and forum for dealing with a user's actions from a different part of the UESP or from offsite. As site staff in the form of patroller and blocker, he is representing the wiki elsewhere, and his recent behavior shows a lack of the type of responsibility needed to have these roles here.
* He was previously staff on Discord due to us initially adding everyone who has roles elsewhere as UESP staff. He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users.
* He has behaved in a somewhat inappropriate matter off and on, which has been addressed in a less-formal manner of staff talking to him or posting a reminder, such as racist comments, language such as the use of "retarded"/"mong", and other behavior which we do not consider okay there even as a joke. Earlier this week, on Tuesday, he was kicked from the server for spamming a bot command that was previously disabled (accidentally reenabled when the bot creator was working on it), being told to stop, and then moving the spam to our main channel (#general) instead, right around the time a prominent member of the ESO community joined.
* Yesterday, on another server (one with many banned members who have something of an anti-UESP sentiment), he [https://imgur.com/tK0668E doxxed Legoless (name hidden)] by changing his username there to his actual real name, and did it in a racist manner, as Legoless is Irish. At this point, we gave him a role on our server that would remove access to all channels to him except the one called "#dungeon", which is used as a holding area while staff discuss what action to take. He claimed to not know it was Legoless's real name, but we found evidence to the contrary; two instances of him using Lego's first or last name on October 22 and November 13.
* This morning, he left our server and rejoined to remove that role (essentially evading a soft ban), [https://imgur.com/feFK62z swearing at the moderation], and posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created).
Fullerton's editing on the wiki has been good, but we feel that with behavior like this it is not appropriate that he hold any type of staff role on the UESP. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

:Why are the Discord staff suggesting a removal of my patroller and blocker roles on-wiki? I do recall that recently there was an attempt to demarcate between Discord and on-wiki staves, and so it puzzles me to see that they're being treated as a single entity.
:If you will recall, these were demarcated because it placed people with insufficient experience in online chatrooms as moderators to have wikistaff become Discord staff, and I have been acting under the impression that one does not necessarily equal the other. I fully agree with my previous removal from Discord staff because quite frankly, my position as wiki staff should not in any way make me a staff member on the UESP Discord server. These distinctions are because Discord and the wiki are extremely different platforms. As a result, I did not feel that I had to act in my role as a wiki patroller when idly chatting in the UESP discord server and various other Discord servers, as the case may be. Now, the reason I failed to represent a wiki patroller in a Discord staff capacity is 'because' of this discrepancy, as I was thrust into a position of which I held no understanding. However, the patroller role on-wiki is something I signed onto fully aware of, and so there is far less possibility that I will misunderstand and forgo the duties which the role has assigned to me on here. As I said, they are different platforms and I signed on to be a Wiki patroller and fulfill the task, while I just so happened to be thrust into a position on the Discord pertaining to representing the wiki.
:Especially prominent in the demarcation between UESP and the Discord Server belonging to it is the Discord Server's recent promotion of "Tea Party Moderators", who were chosen simply for being fit for the task.
:In the past (October 31st), I attempted to have the patroller role removed from my Discord account by leaving the server. However, it was simply re-added to my account because I expressed an ambivalence towards the role. I did not feel I was bound to remain in the role, and came only to see it as a different-colored nametag on the Discord server - hence I requested the colors when I rejoined the server from my (acknowledged to be unjust) kick.
:Additionally, there's no reason for Discord conflicts to suddenly occur on-wiki-this directly defies the reason given for the deletion [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans]], which was that there is no need for the Discord to be that much on the wiki.
:I'd like to conclude by saying that this is an extension of the inconsistency in moderation styles on the UESP discord that has now spilled over onto the wiki, and that I doubt that allowing the confusion to continue will clear up any of the discrepancies on the UESP Discord server.
:—[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 04:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
::(This response is just from me and not the Discord staff as a whole.) Again, part of the reason we are suggesting it here is that as patroller and blocker you are still site staff - not moderating ''that'' part of it doesn't change the roles you do have - and your actions therefore still represent the UESP. The demarcation of the site has nothing to do with it (in fact we've been treating the UESP ''less'' as separate communities and more of a single community ever since the Discord was founded, even if not everyone manages every aspect of it.)
::(As an aside, the reason the Discord Bans page on the wiki was deleted was because we felt that the list had become incentive for people to try to behave badly in order to get banned and get their name on it, not because we felt the Discord and wiki should be kept separate. The reason you had the Blocker/Patroller roles on the Discord was to help you fulfill your duties on the wiki: to have access to the Patrolling channel to discuss edits a patroller isn't certain about, and for people to be able to notify you to block a vandal when needed (which is, in a way, still acting as site staff). You [https://imgur.com/ZxRTafv were aware] that that was the purpose of the role, and in fact after you left in October and it missed being re-added, you yourself eventually [https://imgur.com/E3Cgmnn pointed out] that you were missing it so that it could be added and you could put it to that use.)
::But anyway, back to the topic at hand and the main part of my response: The other part of why we're suggesting it is because in the past we have taken action on parts of the UESP for behavior on a different part (and even offsite) if the behavior was severe enough, which I personally would vote is the case here: sharing another user's personal information without their consent is very serious, even without the rest of it. And regardless whether viewing you as a staff member or not, the examples I listed in the first post show poor judgement at best and some of them malicious behavior at worst (e.g. re-joining the server to shake off the dungeon role and swearing at the mods and posting the dungeon content), which is enough to raise concern about whether you are responsible enough for these roles. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 08:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Instead of trying to dance around this, I'm just gonna say this. What you did could have put Legoless's personal safety at risk. Which raises the question, do you understand what doxing is, and why it is dangerous? Please answer if you understand what you did. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 09:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::From my persepctive, doxxing a member of staff is not the way anyone should behave, let alone another member of staff. Furthermore, your actions on Discord of evading the soft ban by leaving and rejoining the server to leave the #dungeon channel, and then posting the content of the dungeon in a public channel, shows that you do not respect our moderation processes. Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::There are so many side issues that are brought up by this discussion, it's hard to know where to start. On the one hand, I'm concerned about the cross-over of platforms. There's a certain level of behaviour that I would expect from staff, regardless of which UESP platform they're on, and to an extent, even on other sites. But on the other hand, there are also times when people feel the need to let loose. I've certainly said and done things on channels/servers/sites where I wasn't staff that I wouldn't do here, where I am.

:::::Doxxing someone (anyone! staff or not) is a serious charge, and one that might well warrant cross-platform discipline. That said, it really depends on how much of an issue it actually is for Legoless. I'd like to hear from him on that one. I'd also suggest that people consider the fact that some of us are more open about our real names, while others aren't, and it's very easy to forget who's who. A great many people know my real name, for instance, and it's not too terribly difficult to find out if you don't yet. A few clicks should bring you right to it. :) So, was Fullerton acting maliciously and deliberately sharing Legoless' real name? If so, then this is an easy decision, and I'd say yes, he should have rights removed here, since that type of behaviour is unacceptable for any staff member in any and every part of UESP. That becomes a bit more grey, however, if he was acting more out of negligence and just not thinking of the fact that only certain people know Legoless' real name, or even out of ignorance, not realizing that most people don't know it. As a gay man, I completely understand the latter. I've accidentally been outed to people in the past, and I have once accidentally outed someone else in complete ignorance, thinking that everyone knew. It sucks, but sometimes these things happen.

:::::As for the racism issue, that one's a bit more confusing. After all, Legoless' real name includes what is sometimes considered a racist (or at least ethnist) component to it, but is also just a normal name too, so unless there was something more there, I'm not sure that's necessarily racist on its own. Context, however, could make a big difference here, though I appreciate that it may be difficult to share that without inherently outing Legoless all over again!

:::::I think this brings up some larger issues, though, in that there has been a recent tendency to take things cross-platform, and I'm not sure it's always warranted. It strikes me that, to some extent, there have been vendettas going on from certain staff members against other users and an excessive adherence to rules. The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right. That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning. As popular as our Discord channel is, I think to an extent it has also become dysfunctional, and I have a tremendous concern that this cross-platform disciplinary action just continues that trend. TBH, when baratron recently suggested on my talk page that I return to the Discord channel, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!", though I worded it a bit more diplomatically there. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I just did some research, and in a quick Google, I was able to find pages that linked Legoless to his real name. In my own inbox, I was able to find '''Legoless himself''' using the variant of his name that is presented as being racist. So, I think the concerns on that front are a lot less than they might seem.

::::::That said, I think evading a soft ban was inappropriate behaviour, but I can also see where locking someone away in a dungeon (quite literally in this case) gives them no chance to defend themselves publicly, and leaves them unaware of any public or admin-only discussion concerning them, where they should have the opportunity to raise a defence. Yes, they can do so afterwards, but from my experience, by that point, opinions have already largely been formed by the administrators who took an interest. I don't think a dungeon room is at all an appropriate way to handle discipline. All the worse that it's actually called that without seeing the stigma it creates. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @RobinHood: You may have missed a nuance of what Fullerton did. Let's say Legoless's name is Patrick Murphy (it isn't). Fullerton didn't just change Legoless's public name on the other server to "Paddy Murphy" (where "Paddy" is both a common Irish first name and also a derogatory term used for Irish people) - he changed it to "Paddy O'Murphy" - adding an extra O' as if Legoless's surname ''isn't Irish enough''.

::::::: I am not sure what you mean by "''The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right.''" I'm only aware of TJ's Discord server, which has plenty of current members. It's a place for people to "shitpost" (am I allowed to say that on the wiki?), which is posting lots of meme images and talking all in emojis - the sort of behaviour that we frown upon on the main UESP Discord server. This isn't necessarily '''bad''' behaviour, it just does not convey the professional image that we want on the UESP Discord, in case a Bethesda or Zenimax employee shows up. (Which they do - we have two currently that we know of.)

::::::: We're also uncertain about "''That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning''". We're not sure of any current or ex-Patrollers who use TJ's server other than Fullerton and Legoless. Again, there is nothing sinister in them going to that site. Different Discord servers have different rules, and it doesn't mean that wiki staff are involved in some sort of plot against UESP because they happen to hang out there. Some people are on literally 50+ Discord servers at a time - I don't know how they keep up, I'm on 4 of which 2 are busy and multi-channeled, and the other 2 get on average of one message a day. But a lot of younger people apparently have the time and energy for it, *shrug*.

::::::: I take your point about the #dungeon channel, but it '''is intended''' for people to defend themselves. It's where they get to explain to the staff why they did whatever they did, and apologise if necessary. No one other than staff sees who is in there - other members do not even see the channel, and as far as they know, the user is simply offline. I don't agree that opinions have ''necessarily'' already been formed by the administrators who took an interest - sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes, the whole purpose of putting a person into that channel is to find out the details of an incident, rather than to punish people. The channel history is always wiped after use. Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business. I agree that #dungeon is a bad name.

::::::: I understand that Fullerton was frustrated because he was "left in the dungeon for 6 hours", but this was an unfortunate side-effect of timezones. I went to bed at 6 am on Saturday morning due to staying up, dealing with this situation. For many people in the US, it was already 1 am and not everyone has as chaotic a sleep schedule as I do. I'm not sure how anything could have been dealt with any quicker. Also, Fullerton himself told us that he would be away from his computer for the day, which also gave an impression that it was not urgent enough for '''everyone''' to have to stay up way past their bedtimes. I do regret that this was apparently not the case. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I did catch the O'. To me, that was not tremendously relevant, but maybe that's an Aspie thing. I just don't attach the same level of importance to these sorts of things as some do. Since Legoless himself has said it was ancillary to the doxxing itself, I see it as a moot point in any event.

:::::::: My understanding of the purpose of TJ's channel may have been off, as I've never been there and have only heard bits and pieces about it. As far as the other server, I won't say too much for privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that I'm not the only person who found our Discord server sufficiently problematic as to either leave it or at least not visit often. A few of us happen to have found each other in what is otherwise an unrelated server, and on rare occasions, we have discussed what we see as some of the problems. "Offshoot" was not the best term, but I couldn't find another one readily that encompassed both TJ's server (which I understand has at least a few users who were banned from UESP's Discord) as well as the other one.

:::::::: As for the dungeon, as you've acknowledged, the name itself is problematic and adds bias to any discussion, as it automatically implies guilt. I think a better method would be to take such discussions to an ad-hoc private channels and ask the user to refrain from using the channels (which leaves you a certain leeway to make it an even softer ban, allowing use of certain channels if appropriate), or just take it to a group PM and kick/ban them from the Discord server, if necessary. Perhaps these are a bit more of a nuisance, but they're not as inherently biased. At the very least, a better name could be found. I get that it was meant as humorous, but I think it probably doesn't seem quite as funny to someone who finds themselves there.

:::::::: I wasn't really aware of the timing issue of Fullerton being left in the room for 6 hours, but as you say, even if it was frustrating, that's completely understandable, given that our users are from around the world. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: This conversation's moving a bit quickly for me to get a response in, and most of my points have been covered by various users, but I'll just add that Fullerton actually [https://imgur.com/KECYIgR admitted] that his intention with that particular name change was to be racist.
::::::::: I agree that perhaps a better name can be found; it was indeed chosen to be humorous, but I understand your point about the implications the name might have. It certainly isn't our intent to imply that we've already formed opinions: as bara said, it's a place for the mods and the user to come to an understanding; we've given users another chance or found alternate solutions based on our discussions with them there, and it's not always used in cases of disciplinary action either. Even yesterday it was used voluntarily as a private place for a user who wanted to talk to the moderators. While I can understand the frustration of remaining there for hours, the reason we created it is to have time to let all moderators give input, discuss things thoroughly, and not make snap judgements. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::: That screen-cap certainly provides a context I didn't have before. Thank you. As far as forming opinions in advance, that's not just limited to Discord, I've seen it happen in various staff discussions, and I'm as guilty of doing it as the next person. There are often two (or more) discussions on any given issue of misbehaviour, one that includes the affected user and one that doesn't. I think too often, the one that doesn't involve the user tends to jump ahead of the one that does, often without all the facts, and it leads to inappropriate conclusions. That's my main concern here. Usually by the time it's decided that someone belongs in the dungeon (or whatever you end up calling it), there's already been a discussion behind the scenes as to whether the user should be pulled in there. As I recall, putting them in there also removes them from all other channels, does it not? Assuming I'm right, that also adds a presumption of guilt, providing a punishment before a discussion with the user has even happened. I'd rather see the user involved first, before any decisions are made (not counting egregious behaviour, of course, where immediate actions are entirely appropriate). This is probably getting off-topic, however, as it's far more generalized of a concern than this specific instance. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Technically yes, there is a presumption of guilt when putting someone in the dungeon. That's why it exists and why it is named what it is – it is a punishment, a soft ban from the server, while the staff discuss privately, and also discuss with the person involved, whether their actions require a full ban. The alternative is that they get banned from the server straight away, and then the only way to contact them is via private messages, and then it is much more difficult to involve all the staff. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}This isn't about Discord staff versus website staff - this is about a person, who has been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.

UESP is not a random TES discord or Facebook group, it is the single oldest website dedicated to the series, and one of the most respected institutions in the fandom. You, as a representative of said website, are obligated to behave in a manner becoming of its mission and position in the community. Doxxing, using racist language, and making ableist remarks (not to mention defying a soft ban, talking publicly about private conversations, and repeatedly refusing to change aforementioned behaviours) is NOT OK for any regular member of a community, and it is especially not ok for someone that is supposed to represent the very best and most trustworthy of a community (i.e. the staff).

When you use ableist or racist language, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making UESP look bad. You're making people uncomfortable and less willing to contribute to the website and community, potentially driving away valuable contributors. You're eroding peoples' trust in the website and its staff. You're encouraging bad behavior from members and making moderation more difficult, because if staff can act like assholes, why can't everyone?

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. Your recent behaviour has been the opposite of that. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 20:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I'm certainly not okay with my name being made public knowledge without my consent, which is the reason I brought this to the attention of staff to begin with. The fact that it was a racist version of my name is ancillary to the point as far as I'm concerned, and the specifics of that do not need to be addressed publicly.

: This is not a discussion of the demarcation between Discord and the wiki, and I don't find Fullerton's response above to be at all sufficient or even relevant. This discussion is about his continued rights on the wiki and therefore needs to be had on-wiki. Patroller and Blocker are trusted roles, and Fullerton broke that trust. That isn't the kind of behaviour I would expect from staff, regardless of whether it was off-site or not. In my view, the fact that it was done in a third party chatroom frequented by users who are outright hostile towards myself and UESP staff actually makes it worse. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I apologize if I took the discussion a bit off-topic, but I do see the discontent among some users, myself among them, with the way the Discord channel is run as being at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. How it's run has a direct impact on how people behave, and more importantly, how they misbehave. That probably should be a separate discussion, however, if it needs to be had at all. At this point, I'm not sure I see much of a point. I agree with the above two posters that, wherever they are, staff on the wiki should try to behave appropriately when discussing the wiki. It's a fine line to draw for me, though, because people also need a place to vent.

:: What ''is'' important to me here is Legoless' comments. If he's not okay with his online name being linked to his real name publicly, then I'm not okay with it either. Even if the information is out there on the web, publicly presenting it is taking that a step further. Doing so in a room that's hostile towards him does indeed make it worse. Even if someone's venting, there's a time and a place for it, and a way to do it. That was not it.

:: So, while I think there are deeper issues, looking at this request in isolation, I'm not opposed to it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::: I'm just really sad by the whole situation. @Fullerton, I feel as though 90% of the interactions I've had with you over the past year have been positive. Maybe 9% have been frivolous, and 1% annoying or rude enough that I've had to pull you up on the behaviour. I'm not familiar with New Zealand culture and it's possible that it's much more casually racist than the British culture I'm familiar with. Then again, it could also be that you're young and suffering from a lot of peer pressure from friends who dare you to say something dodgy.

::: But look - it's NOT okay to post someone's real name online without their consent. I know you go by your actual legal name online, and that's your choice to do so - but it's also other people's choices to '''not''' do so. Nor is it okay to be casually racist towards other people who aren't your close friends. (I'd argue that it isn't okay to be casually racist at all, but I guess there is some banter between friends which sounds awful to other people listening yet is meant in a friendly way.)

::: I actually '''don't''' believe you should lose your Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki due to your behaviour on Discord, because your work on the wiki has been good. Apparently you have a few annoying editing quirks, but I bet everyone does until they've been here for many years. But you must understand - if you can't be trusted not to reveal someone's personal information on Discord, how do we know we can trust you not to deface wiki pages because you're angry? When you have the Patroller and Blocker roles, you have '''a lot''' more power to damage the wiki. UESP has been going for 22 years. As Lady N said, Bethesda use it to look up Lore they have forgotten, Zenimax use it to get ideas for Arena and Redguard places to revisit in ESO, and we know for a fact that Dire Wolf use it for reference from little oddities which have popped up in Legends. ''The wiki is more important than one person.''

::: I'm sorry that it's come to this. You're intelligent and energetic, and there's no reason on Earth for you to have randomly attacked a wiki admin "for the lols". You could be using that intelligence and energy for good. I hope that you will continue to work on the wiki, so that over time people will feel able to trust you again. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

===Edit Break 1===
I'm gonna ask any conversation about the running of the Discord server, or whether or not there is a precedent for cross-site or even off-site behavior is relevant to your standing on the wiki be shelved. The first is off topic, and the first one has a clear precedent from past incidents. If you would like to make suggestions for the running of the Discord, or the formalization or removal of the existing precedent relating to cross-site and off-site activity, please start a separate topic either here or on CP.

As far as for the actual issue, I would like for Fullerton to respond to the topic. Particularly, I would like for him to confirm that he understands what doxing is, and why it spawned this conversation. Additionally, I'd like for him to be able to provide a response in relation to this issue, before any decision is made relating to it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:As was stated, his real name has come up once or thrice and that led me to believe that he was alright with it being used. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by doxxing. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::Doxxing's a relatively new term, probably a few years old. It means deliberately/maliciously releasing someone's personal information (e.g., name, address, or phone number) when it wasn't generally known. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Robinhood is correct. With that said, if that is true why didn't you just say that before, instead of claiming ignorance to what his name was? Additionally, do you want to comment about the rest of your actions? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't mention it because I assume it wouldn't help my case, that "ignorance is no excuse" would be invoked. In regards to my actions on the Discord server, attempting to evade the dungeon was untenable. However, I would like to say that I am '''not''' an ableist, and I object to being called one. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 08:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::But now it seems/looks like you have been lying to us. How can we still trust your word then? --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::As someone that is in the aforementioned Discord server (which isn't as anti-UESP as portrayed and currently has only <s>one</s> two users who were banned from the UESP Discord server) and saw the immediate aftermath of Fullerton's actions, I will vouch for Fullerton in saying that he seemed genuinely surprised that the nickname he had set for Legoless was his actual name, so, while what could be considered as doxxing occurred, I do believe that it was completely unintentional on Fullerton's part, it might have been a lapse of memory and the specific name being subconsciously picked without conscious awareness that it was actually related to Legoless, but in any case, the intention was pretty clearly not malicious from everything I saw.

::::::Additionally, reading this discussion, it feels like Fullerton has been driven into a corner by you people, being forced to admit to things that don't necessarily correlate to the actual course of events, so either he is a masterful actor and played us all at TJ's server (which I highly doubt), or he's just bending over due to the pressure to try to find the easiest way out (this last paragraph being mostly directed at Ilaro's previous comment). [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 15:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I do not agree at all. If anything, he did put himself into the corner, and depending on what he told you, playing the victim. We gave him more than enough time to explain himself and apologizing without any pressure, but he felt the need to insult the staff and evading the soft ban instead (see the first two links Alarra posted). I am mostly disappointed that he did not even apologize for the doxing (or the racism, which he clearly admitted was the intention). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 17:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: With all due respect, Brynjar, Fullerton lied to you and your friends in the other server. Legoless's real-life surname is uncommon - not only have I literally never heard it before, but it also doesn't appear in the Top 100 Irish surnames lists that I've found online (one from the 1890s, the other from the 1990s). In order to get it correct, Fullerton would have had to know it.

:::::::: If instead of lying after the event and trying to involve all of you in the lie, Fullerton had simply turned around and said, "I'm sorry, it was a joke, I didn't realise Legoless didn't want his real name revealed" we wouldn't be here now. Refusing to publicly acknowledge that he's made a mistake is the exact thing that is making us question Fullerton's judgement, and whether he can be trusted with important wiki permissions. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 19:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} Let's all try to keep in mind that Fullerton is fifteen years old and on the autism spectrum. While it's not impossible, those don't generally go hand-in-hand with being a master manipulator. From what I've seen, he's doing his best to explain his actions but, being that age and not having a full comprehension of social interaction, he's not doing it in a way that neurotypical people would expect and want. And yeah, maybe like any teenager, he knows he's screwed up and just wants to figure out a way that'll get this over with the fastest, as opposed to something more appropriate, so he can move on and pretend this never happened. Being on the autism spectrum myself, I see quite clearly here the same types of mistakes I would have made at his age: not considering the effects of my actions on others and saying whatever was needed to make a problem go away, rather than having to interact with people in a negative way. That's autism!

The fact that he doesn't know how to respond in this situation may well be reason to go forward with the initial proposal, but let's also look at this from his perspective. How would you all have reacted when you were fifteen, caught doing something wrong, and everyone around you was older than you and yelling at you? It's not a fun position to be in. I'm not saying that should affect this decision, but it does give some important insight into Fullerton's responses to this conversation, I think.

Also, baratron raised an interesting point before the edit break. Does this mistake prevent him from patrolling or blocking in a responsible manner? The answer to that is clearly no from a purely logistical point of view. But we do have to consider the social and interpersonal ramifications of Fullerton's actions. Personally, I'm not convinced that removing him as a patroller and blocker will have any beneficial effect on the wiki, and I tend to think that Discord remedies should be sufficient for Discord problems in most cases. But, as I said above, I'm not opposed to the removal of rights, either. The simple fact is, an administrator here was affected because Fullerton didn't think his actions through, which is not really a desirable quality in someone with elevated rights. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:All right, I wasn't going to post, as I came back to the wiki/Discord right as this all happened and didn't see the build up to this (the "small" infractions e.g. the ableism), but I need to say something. Fullerton, your actions were inexcusable. It's not just the doxxing, or the admitted racism that went along with it. Your behavior has been deteriorating for a while. Even before I took my wikibreak, I had noticed that you seemed increasingly abrasive. And abrasive is not a good quality in a representative of the UESP. I was willing to overlook it, because you are young yet and have room to grow, but I cannot in good conscience allow this to continue. Even though I'm on the autism spectrum myself, I know to watch my words regarding other members of my community. Reclaiming words for yourself is one thing, but referring to ''other people'' that way without their knowledge or consent is, indeed, ableist. Just from that, I would have pushed for a time-out. As for the doxxing, I can't speak to the racism, but... Fullerton, you understand that doxxing is a ''violation'', right?

:I believe what this boils down to is consent, and a lack of respect for it. And that's a basic skill that nothing but time and experience can teach you, if ever. Add to that your defense to this incident, which has been... lacking at best, and I must advocate for demotion. Which is a shame, but a necessary one. —[[User:Likelolwhat|likelolwhat]] [[User talk:Likelolwhat|''talk lulzy to me'']] 20:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{Consensus|Removal of Rights|2=Alright, I think we've piled on enough. I'm calling this one now before it goes any further. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)}}

== OB:Efficient Leveling ==

[[OB:Efficient Leveling|Efficient Leveling]] may require protection to keep some utter nonsense off it. I've attempted to end it by contacting the user directly, but given that the user has had over a week to do the basic maths involved in discovering why it should not be on the page (5+5+5 does not equal 5+3+3), I hold no hope that they will come to understand that their edit should not remain on the page and will attempt to replace it again. I'm already on my third revert of the edit, and have no wish to get punished for keeping nonsense off a page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I've fully protected it for a period of 2 weeks. This shouldn't be a problem considering the low levels of editing attention that page has received in recent years, but if it needs to be lifted before then just let an admin know. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

== ESO Dragon Bones PTS Update ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS.

:* uespLog Addon -- Turn custom stats off (''/uespcustomstat off'') to stop a bug in the custom stat display otherwise you'll get error messages in most UI screens.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-17pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps --
:* [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=17pts Skills] -- Done!
:* Skill Cooefficients -- Done but still have to check for bad fits.
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=17pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Collectibles -- Updated to fix an issue with missing items from Live.

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
:As usual, thank you for all your hard work behind the scenes! [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 16:16, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

== UESP's Discord Server ==

As many of you no doubt noticed, I've recently referred to UESP's Discord chat as "dysfunctional". As the person on the wiki with the most rights next to Dave (out of the active users, at any rate), I am at all times aware that it's my duty to attempt to be professional and fair-minded in all things UESP related, so that is not a statement I make lightly. Administrators don't speak against administrators, generally, and when they do, it should be noted. That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why ''four different current- or ex-staff members'' are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming, and only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional. My concerns about how it's run are numerous, so I'll try to break them down into meaningful groups.
* '''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave. During my time on the server, I saw numerous examples of questionable behaviour on his part, including lying, manipulating, interfering in matters outside our server, and outright paranoia that another administrator was out to get him, simply for calling him on some of his behaviours. While those incidents are long gone and not worth getting into at this point, particularly since I have no way of bringing forth evidence at the moment, I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.
* '''Staff''': Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff (if even that). Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.
* '''Accountability/Transparency''': Continuing on from that last, far ''far'' too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public. When members complain, they then sound like trouble-makers. If the complaints escalate, they may even come to ''be'' trouble-makers, simply out of frustration. This needs to change. Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it. If the chatroom is cleared or deleted for any reason, chat logs should be kept and posted publicly, in order to ensure full transparency on any decisions.
* Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making. Even ''in'' political discussions, staff need to be certain that they're not being unnecessarily "twitchy" when it comes to deleting messages or moderating users. If any can be found, I think a few responsible, moderate right-wing people should be brought on as staff, to balance everyone else out and make sure the echo chamber phenomenon isn't perpetuated.
* I understand that the "dungeon" channel has been renamed, and I thank you all for that. This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff. The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help. In this configuration, staff have ''every'' advantage (numbers, increased rights, ability to discuss approach and strategy without the user's knowledge, to name a few), while the accused has none. That needs to be significantly altered. While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing. If the room is to be cleared or deleted afterwards, chat logs should be maintained and published publicly for future reference. Similarly, even if the chat takes place in a private room, chat logs should be maintained in a private location, accessible to all staff in any part of UESP. This will not only help to ensure continued transparency and accountability, it will also allow staff from other parts of the site to be aware of any problem behaviour occurring elsewhere.
* At ''no time'' should any administrator ever delete any comment, theirs or anyone else's, from any discussion relating to rules or discipline. If you say something that came out wrong or was inaccurate or what have you, apologize and move forwards. If you say something that you realize could get you in trouble, well, guess what? You're an administrator...you're accountable for what you say and do! Deal with the consequences like a responsible admin.
* '''Rules''': In far too many cases, rules are developed on an ad-hoc basis. An example from Fullerton's discussion, above, would be not posting the contents of the moderation room to a public room. That's not a rule that was posted anywhere prior to that. From all accounts, it was made up on the fly. If Fullerton wasn't just doing it to spam channels or leak private information, he had every right to post the contents of a discussion about him to wherever he felt it appropriate to do so. After all, it's a discussion about him, and he maintains absolute control over that information. If administrators felt that they said or did something they didn't want public in that chat, well, maybe they shouldn't have done that thing in the first place! I don't know if that's the case here, but accountability is one of the places I feel our Discord server needs the most work, so I'm bringing it up again here as an example.
* Similarly, all rules should be posted publicly to the wiki's Discord page, or a subpage, so that people can know what they are before joining, if they choose to look. This will also help maintain a record of when rules were enacted or changed.
* '''Cross-platform Interactions''': As a rule, what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server. I'm not just referring to the recent issue with Fullerton, but rather, reminding everyone of a rule that has long been in place and has sometimes been ignored: no decisions made on the Discord server should be applied to the wiki, forums, or wherever else, without there being a full discussion on the relevant platform. You can always post chat logs, if needed. Bringing this back to Fullerton, however, I feel that much of what happened was probably blown out of all proportion, from what I've been able to tell in chats with those involved. At best, I feel that this was a borderline case as to whether it should have been brought to the wiki. So, I'm going to suggest that we use this as "the line". If it's less serious of an incident than Fullerton's, keep Discord discipline limited to Discord. We don't need to perpetuate drama across the entire site. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

::Rob has hit all of the points I've had some concern about, and after telling me he was making the post, I wanted to throw in my agreement with each post. I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally. If there were any concerns, they could be brought up knowing it would be fairly handled either there or on our Administration Noticeboard. I feel like that's not the case at all in Discord, and when I was there, I had a handful of users DM me because they were upset that there was such a clear clique and pecking order established in the Discord. There's a lot more emphasis on authority and enforcement, rather than peaceful moderation, and it's affecting how comfortable people are - myself included - when using the Discord, hence my departure from it.

::Users shouldn't have to be concerned that what they say will be picked apart by a cabal (and I hate using this word) that seems to exist in the Discord where the staff are ganging up on people who can't adequately defend themselves. Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.

::I also agree with Rob's thoughts about how leadership is elected, and I feel like going forward there should be a clear election process or consensus to decide who is capable of being a staff member, because at present, I see questionable decisions on who should be staff, and I feel like there should be clear guidelines in place and a nomination process, not existing staff arbitrarily chosing people on their own, as I feel they've been prone to do. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 23:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

:::@RH While you are making some interesting points and some of them could definitely addressed, I still think you are way too exaggerating the problems on Discord. The dungeon channel, for example, is the alternative for outright banning. There is a reason that the person does not have access to the other channels, because it is (mostly) used a soft-ban. I will comment about the other points at another time, because I certainly believe some of them are (partly) right and some of the rules might be changed to reflect these concerns.
:::For now I want to point out this statement from Damon: "where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with." I have no idea why he said that, because everyone in that discussion is in the top 100 of most edits this year (and Damon, you are not there, but I ''do'' still think you have the right to pop-up into this conversation). I believe everyone has the right to have their say, because the wiki concerns a lot more people than only the editors. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I know I have not been an active user of Discord, having only used it about 3 times, but having read the post above, here and in the Fullerton case, my experience of basically being in charge of discipline on IRC (having kicked more people than the bot in charge of auto-kicking), and being one of the most active when I was there, I feel I can contribute/make observations from my experience there.
::::Almost every case of discipline was public, warnings, discussion, actions. Only very rarely did something discipline-wise happen off-channel, usually in private messaging, and usually only to bring attention to something that would then lead back into the public room. This is almost the same as happens on the wiki for demotions, punishments, warnings, even disputes about certain edits, with only a few instances of discussions happening via email. This is a very important point for avoiding accusations of cliquishness, even if it can't stop it. It actually helped that being a "staff" member on the wiki auto-entitled you to IRC status, as the wiki had little knowledge of a persons social leanings if they hadn't been on IRC.
::::The description of the multiple channels reinforces the observation that the channel is not being run for social interaction anymore, given the abundance of rules regarding where you have to post certain things; why are you not allowed to have fun in the main channel. That is an indictment of the current running of the channel, and I would suggest that the aforementioned Bethesda and Zenimax visitors would find that rather sad that no-one is having fun in case they "spoil" whatever passes for enjoyment in that stale environment. The IRC had an unwritten rule that you could have fun until someone needed help or to discuss something wiki/series related, and again it was rarely broken; this also lead to having many people in the channel who knew little about the games but were there to talk socially, making the place more enjoyable.
::::An overabundance of rules only tells people that you don't trust them to behave without them. I personally have probably broken every rule that wikipedia has cared to invent, yet respect most of them and enforce them when they are actually needed. Things thrive best when there are less rules, because the few that remain actually mean something. The current Discord wiki page is still not complete (a particular section is still linking back to the IRC page waiting for someone to adapt it for Discord). Nevertheless, it should not become full of rules as a result, and should continue the kind of informal style of the IRC page. I would also suggest that a complete rethink of all the rules be done, with some or many done away with, and also roll some of the off-shoot channels back into the main one, or merge some of the side ones together (less is so very much more).
::::Finally, a persons behaviour is their behaviour. An admins actions on IRC was an admins actions on the wiki. Even a persons actions off-site when representing the site should be held against them. This can be traced as far back as rpeh's admin rights removal for his actions off-site. When you become a staff member particularly, you are even-more-so representing the site, a responsibility you accept when you request or accept a role. However, back to IRC, an off-hand remark would often be forgotten if an apology was made, given the real-time nature of the network, only more serious actions would have led to something as big as rights-removals on the wiki (this is not a comment on the above discussion). To state it again, if RobinHood70 were to go anywhere on the internet and start doing reprehensible things (like saying my grammar is awful), and we knew it was him, he should be held accountable on the wiki and any of its offshoots (eg twitter/facebook management).
::::Feel free to ignore any of my advice/experience given my utter lack of Discord experience, just as I will continue to avoid social interaction with every one of you for the foreseeable future, given my right-wing stance on treating people with dignity and respect. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::First of all, I'd like to thank RobinHood for bringing this issue to the Noticeboard, and even more so with his resounding points, with which I agree in full in all cases.

:::::I have been one of the most active users in the UESP Discord server for close to an year or so (being on number 4 in the leaderboard - which is based roughly on the number of messages sent in the server - for quite a long period), until I voluntarily left a month ago due to my escalating issues with the moderation and administration of the server. My draft for this post got considerably long so I'll try to bullet point my issues and concerns to try for a more concise and cohesive post:

:::::* Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job. As expressed by some staff members on the server itself, some of them do not even want to moderate and administer the server, and many others have no idea what they’re doing, which has led and will certainly lead to a series of bad and questionable decisions, even more so given the apparent top to bottom hierarchy and authority even among the staff members.

:::::* Divide between the staff and the community: while a difference between the wiki staff and the general public is certain to be expected, it has been made unhealthy by the server privileges given to the wiki staff, creating a sub community that most of the time seems to behave as if they were above the “regular” users, which shouldn’t be the case, given that the server is open to the public. Interactions between most staff members (with exceptions) and the rest of the community are also fairly limited, creating a big divide in the general interpretation of the actions to be taken, which are made exclusively by this more secluded and reserved group than by the biggest share of the active user base; and, as RH said, without consultation or open discussion with that part of the community.

:::::* Poor and inconsistent moderation/decision making: staff behaviour in regards to rule enforcement and problem-solving is completely inconsistent, while one staff might be strict, many others are extremely lax or never actually do anything, and even when the staff intervene, the actions taken vary absurdly from one to the next, and most of the time the staff board as a whole is extremely reactionary and ready to blow something minor and irrelevant out of proportion, making the many suffer for the sins of the one. It seems to me that the staff members lack a good guideline (if they have one at all) on how to treat the server, which ties in to the first point, of staff members not prepared to handle a chat server or unwilling to do so.

:::::Other than that, I would like to stress the points about Accountability and Cross-platforming that RH has made, which I believe are very important here. And despite what Ilaro has to say, all of these are very serious problems for the well-functioning of a chat server and the UESP server specifically, and all of the users I interact with on a more frequent basis, either on UESP or the other six TES servers I’m a part of, all notice and are bothered with most of the points raised here. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 01:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{ec|4}} I didn't bring it up further because the discussion was about Fullerton's rights on the wiki, not your opinion on the Discord server. But I must say that I was rather put out by your comment that the server is "dysfunctional". And maybe it is, if that ideal of functionality is based on the functionality a wiki. But Discord is not a wiki, it's an instant messaging and VoIP service, which is an entirely different medium.
::::::'''Ownership''': While I agree that technically it would be better if Dave was the server owner, I don't think he is active enough on Discord for that to actually be practical. A Discord server needs an active server owner so that they are available to deal with whatever issues crop up that only the server owner can deal with.
::::::'''Staff''': The original assignment of Discord staff based on being elected staff elsewhere on UESP is untenable. It was mentioned to us numerous times that a number of staff elsewhere have been avoiding the Discord because they didn't want to be staff on Discord. Everyone who was initially appointed as Discord staff this way has, as far as I am aware, now been contacted though to see whether they actually want to remain Discord staff or not. So that whole thing actually didn't make sense at all, as it was putting people into a position they didn't want. When it comes to appointing new staff, it appears to work the same way that it does here. Someone is approached by current staff with the suggestion. I think it's a very rare occurrence for someone to actually put themselves forward for a staff position of their own volition, or even with encouragement from other users, without at least one of those other users being staff already.
::::::'''Accountability/Transparency''': I actually don't understand the issue here. It is common practice for administration to be discussed in a private channel that is specifically for discussing administration. If that was done in a public channel, then effectively everyone is now an administrator. Although I do agree that anything that would have an effect on the entire userbase should be discussed with the entire userbase, I can't think of any examples right now where that has actually happened. (I'm sure you can though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up, so I'd be interested in having some examples.)
::::::There does appear to be an "anti-anything-remotely-right" bias, which I think may cause any staff members who are not left-leaning, if they do exist, to not make it obvious.
::::::Yes, the dungeon channel is now called "mediation". Whenever the channel is cleared, the contents are logged and are available to other staff on request. The isolation from the rest of the server is intentional - being put in the "dungeon", as was, is effectively banning someone from the rest of the server without actually kicking them from the server (you can't talk to them if they're kicked). It originally existed solely for this purpose; someone isn't banned if they can still access the other channels. This has been repurposed however, and I think can now serve as a "public" moderation chatroom, if such a thing would ever be required (but I can't think of any examples why it would be, as then it could just be discussed in #general).
::::::I'm not sure what your "deleting comments" sentence is getting at. Comments that violate the rules would of course be deleted, but I don't think that's what you mean...
::::::'''Rules''': On that specific example, a rule that has existed since the initial staff overhaul in October is ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential"''. Since that rule only applies to staff, only staff can see it, to avoid confusing the rest of the userbase. Fullerton was well aware of this rule, and anyone who is suspended to the moderation channel is informed of it as well.
::::::While conceptually similar to the IRC, I think the way Discord has grown means that "token AOPs and HOPs" is just not a viable moderation method. The (rather high) number of staff required to maintain a large server probably does make it seem like there's a clique, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on how we can try to avoid that, yet while still maintaining necessary server integrity.
::::::I do not see anyone who commented on Fullerton's case who is not a regular/active UESP wiki contributor, based on the active editors from the last 12 months. Although it would be up to whoever decides what "consensus" actually is to determine whether consensus can be reached based on the currently-involved participants.
::::::Regarding how staff are chosen, I have no idea how it works on the Forums, but however it works there is probably the best model to use as a base for what we do on Discord. A forum is much more similar to a chat server than a wiki. Having a two-week discussion to reach someone's arbitrary definition of "consensus" is not a viable basis.
::::::In conclusion however, if "what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server", surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it'', and then be involved in the implementation process of actually making the thing better. "Fixing a broken system that we didn't realise was broken" is what I've been doing at work for the past three months, and the best progress towards a resolution always comes out of a discussion where a clear direction of what to do next is given.

::::::@Silencer: If there appears to be a "rule against fun" in the main channel on Discord, let me know where that seems to have stemmed from, as that's not something I would support (although given how active the main channel usually is, I don't actually see it). Also if there is a general feeling that there is an overabundance of rules, I'd be happy to discuss trying to cut them down, if we can work out what's not actually needed.

::::::@Bryn: Immediate moderation rights for staff was a concept that was based on trust. i.e., "if they're trusted to moderate elsewhere, they're trusted to moderate Discord too". But we realised this was not what many of the other staff wanted, and as such, this is no longer the case, and all who were initially appointed like this have (I think) been contacted to ask if they wish to continue. Anyone newly appointed to a staff position elsewhere on UESP retains that original concept of "trust" though, and by that reasoning, are still asked if they would be interested in moderating Discord based on that. Any suggestions for improving staff/community interaction would be welcome, but I maintain what I said before that server moderation cannot be a community activity. There is definitely inconsistency within staff behaviour, but I don't actually know how that can be improved, as everyone will have their own way of doing things. In terms of actual rule enforcement (i.e., moderation), there is no reason that shouldn't be consistent if the rules are the same for everyone. Again, if people who "are bothered" by this come forward with their problems ''and solutions'', then there is no reason that we can't address these.
::::::--[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Eno: I appreciate the changes being made, and while I can see the reasoning for the trust factor, I think a competence qualification should also be looked for in a communication medium that works fundamentally different from what those people are used to moderate. I have proposed the following solution at least two times publicly on Discord and a few times directly to staff members, but it has so far been ignored. What I've always proposed is a divorce between wiki staff and Discord staff; there should be specific roles and channels for wiki and forum and guild and what-have-you staff, for sure, so that they can discuss topics that concern their specific roles, but those people should not also be made or necessarily even asked to become moderators for the server, and this should instead be relegated to members picked for showing aptness to follow and enforce rules and integrity in chat, kinda like I hear the "Tea Party Moderators" were selected (although I think this current approach is still flawed). I didn't go at length with this suggestion in my previous comment because it was already too long as it was and I felt it was detracting myself from making the points I thought needed to be made. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 02:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::{{ec}} @Enodoc: I'll respond more fully later, as it'll take some time for me to really go through this point by point, but I did want to respond to one thing that may help clarify my attitude and actions here. Specifically, your suggestion that ''surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it''.''

::::::::The problem here is that in taking this discussion to the Discord server, we are stating that we're willing to rejoin the server in its current state. I, for one, am not. I do not want to be seen as supporting it in any way right now. Yes, I think it's actually that dysfunctional, or at least it was the last time I was there. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if a discussion of the server takes place ''on'' the server, staff there are under absolutely no obligation to do anything whatsoever about the suggestions made and, unless we all go there together at the same time, any individual comments will be lost in the chatter of the general channel. The user could well be deemed a trouble-maker and have their comments deleted. Even if it did become a highly active discussion there, as you can see from some of the comments here, trust in some of the Discord staff is not high among some users. We simply have no confidence that any discussion held on the server wouldn't simply be deleted. By holding it here, on the wiki, it's not in Discord staff's hands, and a full, permanent record is available to any and all without requiring them to join UESP's Discord. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}I'll preface this by saying that I am one of the "current or former patrollers" mentioned above who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that the UESPWiki Discord server is being run. Make of that what you will.

One of the most serious issues I attempted to raise during my (brief) time in the channel was the lack of transparency which seems to have become endemic since the move was made from IRC. This has manifested itself most notably in the deletion of the block logs page - Fullerton also attempted to address that, above. Frankly, I don't feel Alarra's argument that a public list of banned users would encourage misbehavior holds any water, and I'd appreciate some clarification of this claim, if she’d be so kind.

Is there a precedent that's made you feel this way? Do you feel the same way about the [[Special:BlockList|block logs]] on the wiki? Should they be privatized on the basis that they might encourage infamy? I moderated the [[UESPWiki:IRC|now defunct IRC channel]] for more than three years, and during that time the [[UESPWiki:IRC/Bans|channel block log]] was maintained meticulously, because it was understood that the chat was simply an extension of the wiki, and so the same rules applied - including record keeping. I’m disturbed to see that this commitment to openness has fallen by the wayside so completely, and in such a short amount of time.

On the topic of record keeping, I find the accusation levelled against Fullerton that he ''"posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created)"'' really, really worrying, and actually symptomatic of a much larger culture of silence. If a user feels uncomfortable with the way that staff are treating them, and feels they're being dealt with unfairly, they shouldn't just be permitted to raise the issue elsewhere - they should be encouraged to do so.

''"He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users."'' Once again, where on the Discord guidelines page does it say that this is grounds for removal of role? Why is this grounds for punishment at all? Conversations with staff members are not top-secret information - if someone feels uncomfortable with the way a staff member has spoken to them, and feels that policy has been violated, they're within their rights to consult another user for a second opinion. A second set of eyes can offer valuable insight. Ordinarily, going to another, unbiased staff member would be preferable, but that's difficult if you feel there ''aren't'' any unbiased staff members.

I’ll admit this part of the post struck a chord with me, personally. In the past, I was repeatedly bullied and called horrible names by a member of wiki staff, in a series of IRC private messages which began under the guise of a reprimand for misbehaviour. This bully had been on the site far longer than I had, and was a well-established member of the community; I was the same age at the time as Fullerton is now, and I had no idea how to react. I firmly hold that distributing the logs of those discussions was the right thing to do, even if it was a technical violation of the rules; it meant that others were able to tell me that yes, this was something inappropriate and no, I wasn’t at fault. People in authority are not above authority. The user in question was ultimately blocked, which should tell you all you need to know. Transparency of moderator behaviour is important to ensure fairness and equality.

''"Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers."'' In other words, anyone who disagrees with the actions taken by the moderation staff - even if those actions have no written basis and are made up on the fly - should be blacklisted regardless of prior behaviour. Good to know.

''"Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business."'' This one speaks for itself, I think, as to the contempt some current staff members hold for the users they preside over, but I'd like to quote the page on [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]] anyway:

''"All editors' opinions should be given equal weight. In particular, administrators do not have inherently greater authority than other editors. Because of their greater experience with the UESPWiki, administrators may have more knowledge of how content is currently organized on the site, or be able to refer to similar examples on other wiki pages. Therefore, administrators (and experienced editors) may be able to provide more support for their position. Their reasoning, rather than their status, may therefore cause their opinion to influence a discussion."'' Ahem.

''"The reason we created (the #dungeon) is to have time to let all moderators give input."'' Some of the moderators on the Discord server were not, in fact, elected by the wiki community at all. Yet they're being treated - and are behaving - as though they were not only administrators, but final arbiters of justice. Are staff who were given their positions with no input from the people they're supposed to be moderating really qualified to do so?

These quotes all illustrate a wider lack of accountability by the staff members to the community as a whole. Other examples of bad practice can be seen in instances where [[Skyrim_talk:Proudspire_Manor#Transclusion_to_Houses|consensus is reached]] [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|on Discord with no input]] from the wider editor base, the argument being made that anyone who wants to partake in discussions should simply use Discord, or in Dillon deciding to make [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Discord&diff=1697969&oldid=1696580 significant changes to the guidelines] by removing the part which said that all staff members were equal in the channel with absolutely no discussion at all. The fallout from that little change was the creation of a "non-staff patroller" role, once again without any discussion, which was allocated to certain blacklisted users. Unsurprisingly, no mention of this distinction is made on the page.

If we go further back, we can see [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans|AKB unilaterally deleting the block logs]] page, on the basis that it “serves no purpose.” I beg to differ in the strongest possible terms, and I know I’m not the only one. I was told in the channel that the reason for this decision was actually because it was inconvenient to keep it updated; judging by Alarra’s post above, that narrative has been amended retroactively.

Another problematic aspect of the channel was the consistent jeering, mocking and snide remarks by the staff about a specific, very active wiki editor, behind his back. Since I haven't preserved the logs of this bullying, and since it took place publicly only on occasion, with the majority of the vitriol being espoused in a private channel by the administrative staff, it doesn't particularly serve as evidence, but I certainly wasn't the only person to witness it. As far as I know the user who was the subject of these taunts is still unaware that this ever occurred, or that he was frequently the butt of the administration’s jokes.

I myself was also mocked, publicly, by an administrator after I left the UESPWiki server; several users I shared servers with told me separately that I had been “dissed” by someone who was supposedly a role model. That’s not on. As Lady N so succinctly put it, this is about people ''“who (have) been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.”''

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. The recent behaviour of some members has been the opposite of that. You’re there to serve the community, not to rule over it. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 02:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:Again I want to comment about the accusations that are held against Discord. There are so many points now that I have no time (now) to discuss them, but [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|this]] link you shared @KitKat shows the contrary of what you are arguing. One: it was an edit that added a merge ''proposal''. Two: it was brought to the wiki ''because'' it was something that should reach consensus here and not on Discord. It is impossible to keep all ideas and brainstorming on the wiki when there is another chat platform available and I don't see the problem with asking input and refining ideas before making edits (Most edits are already made without any pre-knowledge of other editors, only larger ideas and problems are brought to the talk pages and/or community portal and this is/should still be the case if Discord is used as a mediator). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 03:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::Because one of my edits was mentioned specifically, I'd like to respond to that. The edit to UESPWiki:Discord was simply to reflect the current setup of the roles and channels at that time. I did not intend to change any guidelines, and if I did it was a mistake. I can definitely understand having a discussion on the talk page first before making major changes to the staff roles on Discord. However, these changes were already decided (and not by me personally) when I made that edit so I was updating outdated information. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Could you point me to the discussion held on the wiki (ie; on the [[UESPWiki_talk:Discord|talk page]] for the Discord server, the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|Admin Noticeboard]], or the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|Community Portal]]) where it was decided unanimously that all staff members on the server were no longer equal to one another? Because that's the sentence you removed: "There are three staff roles with equal standing" was amended so that it no longer stated each staff role was equal. That's a significant departure from the previous content of the page; when was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? And for that matter, why was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? You haven't said in your edit summary. As a patroller myself, I had and have a vested interest in this discussion, but I wasn't invited to participate at all. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 03:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I think you are misunderstanding the change. The staff-related permissions of Blocker, Patroller, Moderator, and Officer were merged into the Staff role. Patroller gives access to the #patrolling channel, but otherwise the roles serve only to identify ranks outside Discord. I removed the "equal standing" bit because the result was a single staff role and equal standing is redundant when you have one role. As for admins being above regular staff, the sentence was referring to the four previous staff roles, not admins and staff together. It was already the case that admins were above staff and my edit did not change that. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::Yes, but some members who currently have the "Staff" role '''aren't actually blockers or patrollers'''. They have no elevated role on the wiki or the forums. They can't block people or patrol things, even if they want to. Having this multifaceted role denoting permissions which they don't, in reality, possess, is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the administration as a whole. It's also needlessly confusing.

:::::'''EDIT''': You said that "these changes were already decided (and not by me personally)," yet '''you''' made the edit. At whose behest were these changes made, please, and why didn't they edit it themselves? [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 04:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::: I'm rather tired since I have been working on UESP social media today, but there do seem to be a few misunderstandings in the above which I feel that I should comment on.
:::::: @RobinHood: "''That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why four different current- or ex-staff members are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming''". I didn't ask because I already know why.
:::::: @RobinHood: "'''''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave.''" This is not entirely true. AKB is indeed the "Founder" of our Discord server, but of course Dave has the right to challenge him if he (Dave) feels that AKB is doing a bad job. I can see a long message from Dave on 28th February 2017 in the staff channel (#discord_business) where Dave was admonishing AKB.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.'' Many of us would not disagree. Certainly when Dave first showed up on Discord, AKB offered to pass server ownership onto him, but Dave said that it should remain in the hands of someone who is there every day. This can be revisited if necessary.
:::::: The question is really whether people have a '''specific''' objection to AKB, or whether any of the current staff would be acceptable provided that they were elected in some manner. Which leads me directly onto:
:::::: @RobinHood: '''''Staff:''' Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, [...] This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff'' I'm a little confused about your point here. I agree that I was not elected to be the Guildmaster of the UESP Guild on the North American PC/Mac server, I was directly appointed by Dave. This was fully supported by all other Guild Officers at the time (2nd November 2014).
:::::: I'm confused because on the one hand you're saying that Dave should ultimately be in charge of the Discord server, and on the other hand suggesting that all staff should be elected by agreement with existing users. These two ideas seem to be in contradiction.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it.'' This would be a wonderful idea if only everyone had the common sense and/or maturity to keep to the topic in hand. Real-time conversations end up with people posting meme images or attempting to talk entirely with emojis, and such like. The wiki or the forums are both better places for reasoned discussion due to their non-real-time nature, with Discord itself perhaps best purely for presenting the ideas for a vote.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff.'' If the dungeon chatlog was not cleared, then the next person to enter the channel would be able to see the private conversation of the previous person. If a user has been "in trouble" and been dealt with, it seems very unfair for the next user to be able to see their entire conversation with staff.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help.'' Discord has a private messaging system and it is entirely possible for a person to send PMs to their friends explaining what is going on and asking for help. Indeed, if a user requested a friend to support them, that could easily be arranged. Discord admin are able to create custom roles to add any member to any channel if necessary.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing.'' See my previous comment about keeping to the topic at hand. While Fullerton was in the #dungeon (before it was renamed), other users in #apprentice_workshop (the channel for our more active regulars) were coming up with such genius comments as whether they could have Fullerton's EXP if he was banned. (As you know but others may not, there is a "level up" bot/game on the server.) Such comments would have been most unsuitable during a moderation discussion.
:::::: @Damon: ''I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally.'' IRC was '''orders of magnitude''' smaller than Discord. I believe #uespwiki had around 50-60 members at its peak, and #uespforums had 10-20 members. Discord, in comparison, has 1885 members right now. It is impossible to have the same "feel" with a community where literally everyone knows everyone else, compared to a much larger community. This is why most of us choose to hang out in the channels which most suit our interests. I read absolutely everything posted in #online, for example.
:::::: @Damon: ''Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.'' I'm still not sure what you mean by this. I'm sure everyone who commented uses the wiki at least several times per week.
:::::: @Brynjar: ''Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job.'' As Enodoc pointed out, this is no longer the case. This is a change which I had been asking for since 14th December 2017 which finally went through on 28th December 2017.
:::::: To conclude, yes, there have been problems with the Discord server in the past. For example, there had been a problem with certain admin making unilateral decisions without consulting other staff. However, I feel that over the past month, we've really pulled together. It is definitely much more of a team effort now - especially in the couple of weeks since our new Tea Party Moderators came onboard. I'm sad that people are continuing to criticise the way that Discord is run based on how it was run several months ago, rather than how it is run now.
:::::: This is really all I have time for, but I will answer any questions or comments. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 04:32, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @Kitkat I'm sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding. Previously we had Admin, then three classes of ordinary Staff: Wiki Patrollers, Forum Moderators, and Guild Officers. The abilities/privileges of the ordinary Staff were identical, but they were marked by a different colour - red for Patrollers, green for Forum Moderators, purple for Guild Officers. This was because we initially thought it would be useful for users to know which part of the UESP each person was responsible for. Patrollers also had access to the #patrolling channel, but I don't think the other two classes of Staff were forbidden from looking in there, it was just assumed they wouldn't want/need to.

::::::: As the server got larger, we decided that rather than wasting colours needlessly marking people based on which part of UESP they had come from, we would roll the three classes of ordinary Staff into one, and mark them all red. This is the change which Dillon made to UESPWiki:Discord. The decision was made on 27th-28th October 2017. It looks like the decision was made by Alarra, AKB, me, Dillon, Enodoc, and Ilaro, being all of the staff active during that period other than RobinHood, who actually resigned from Discord on 28th October, and Lady Nerevar, who said she had no opinion. Dillon made the wiki edit because he was available to do so.

::::::: To clarify further, it was never the case that Patrollers were "equal to" Admins. Discord Admin have access to additional commands, such as the ability to create custom roles for users, the ability to assign users to these roles, the ability to change the colours associated with the roles, the ability to change the 30 server emoji, etc. Mostly boring administrative things which don't need to be done very often. This is not to say that Admin are ''more important'' than Patrollers and the other ordinary server Staff, but it is a different role. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 04:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I don't think I'd say it's so much a misunderstanding, as it is that you haven't answered my questions or addressed my concerns.

::::::::''"The decision was made on 27th-28th October 2017. It looks like the decision was made by Alarra, AKB, me, Dillon, Enodoc, and Ilaro, being all of the staff active during that period other than RobinHood, who actually resigned from Discord on 28th October, and Lady Nerevar, who said she had no opinion. Dillon made the wiki edit because he was available to do so."''

::::::::Yes, '''I was in the UESPWiki server at the time.''' I wasn't, however, permitted access to staff channels, which is obviously where all these decisions took place: behind closed doors, as per usual. I was a patroller in the channel at the time this change was made, and I'd like to know why it wasn't discussed anywhere on the wiki as it should have been, and I'd also like to know why myself and the other "non staff patrollers" weren't given the opportunity to participate in a discussion which affected us directly.

::::::::Your response has actually bolstered exactly the point I'm trying to make, though: unilateral decisions are commonly made by a select few on a secret server with no input from the wider community. This '''is the root of the problem.''' It appears as though there is a deeply ingrained culture of holding discussions in secret because it minimizes the risk of potential dissent and disagreement, which is not only untenable, but absolutely antithetical to the fundamental principles of both a wiki and a community. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 06:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} This is going to be my first and only post here seeing that I'm starting another semester in law school shortly and frankly don't have the time to constantly check replies here. So here goes;

@Robinhood: '''I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.''' Although I agree with the sentiment that the founder of UESP should have control, I think you need to understand that we have over 2000 users on this discord server and when problems occur we need someone who can be here at a moment's notice, which I think would be unreasonable to ask of Dave. I think this could be better delegated to an Admin. In my nearly one year on the server I cannot think of a time where AKB's ownership of the server has been suspect.

@Robinhood: '''This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways... Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.''' I partially agree with you here. I won't lie I was surprised when I wasn't asked or suggested to become an actual staff member on the server, and not just a WikiPatroller that I currently am. Personally I suspect it to be because I get more involved into discussions and arguments than most. I would like to see more diversity in the staff however.

@Robinhood: '''Continuing on from that last, far far too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public.''' Once again I believe this ultimately has to do with the sheer size of the server. When discussion occurs and it's not even a remotely important topic chat can fly by and it can be difficult sometimes to follow the conversation. I think for the sake of being able to make decisions about the server and other issues having a 'quieter' place so to speak to be able to even make a consensus is important.

@Robinhood: '''Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making.''' While I agree that a majority of the staff and members are left leaning, I can't honestly say that I've seen a staff member use their political leanings to moderate people on the server. The only cases in which something like that has happened is when we get people who use nazi imagery and other alt-right memes and what not to troll the server. That has no purpose on the UESP discord server so I would hope that you'd agree with them being dealt with. Also all politics is banned from all channels except #off-topic, and even then the discussions that happen there are quite tame. I don't see anything wrong with how it's currently set up.

@Robinhood: I agree however that the rules should be posted in a very public place, they are posted on the #rules channel in the discord, but from what I know they aren't posted on the Wiki page for our Discord. I would also suggest that UESP hold a "constitutional convention" of sorts to codify the rules of the discord. I believe that we could pare down a lot of the stuff that we currently have to a much clearer and more concise version.

@Robinhood: I completely disagree that actions on the Discord Server should have no bearing on anything related to UESP. When one person is accepted to be a staff member, there is a level of trust that UESP gives each and every person. Now I'm not that read up on the regulations and what conduct that we should have. If a staff member is to be a paragon of the community, people that other people can look up to, then they should represent UESP as best as possible. In the case of Fullerton, who was known as a staff member on the discord, definitely represented himself in a way that I think UESP would not want to be connected to. In the case of my real-life job, I am a public worker. If I were to do something unbecoming in public and get myself in trouble, I without a doubt would be fired, regardless of it being related to my job. The same should apply here.

Overall, I generally agree with the statements that Baratron made. However I do think that discord is a unique case and not everything on the server can adhere 100% to what others are suggesting we do on the Server.

If there are any changes to be made to the Discord Server, I would suggest this;
* All staff that are currently "staff" on the Discord Server should be evaluated, and in the case of the few that haven't been elected should be.
* The Rules of the Discord server should be agreed on somewhere on the Wiki or the Discord Server, and be put up to a vote.
* Any and all staff actions should be made in a public and viewable log on the Discord server (I Know this is possible, I have something like this on my own.)
* Along with a clear and concise set of rules, we need a clear and concise pattern of moderation. To clarify what I mean, the rules need to have an explanation of the consequences of breaking the rules, and how the staff proceeds with rule-breakers. All staff on the discord server should have to follow the same pattern, unless in egregious and exigent circumstances. —[[User:JarlUlfric|JarlUlfric]] ([[User talk:JarlUlfric|talk]]) 06:07, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:On Discord, I proposed moving the majority of staff discussions to a public channel that is read-only for regular users. So far the idea has full support, and we're just waiting for other staff to respond. While this won't solve all of the problems listed above, I believe it will help address "Accountability/Transparency" from RobinHood's original post and the concerns Kitkat raises. This will hopefully help bridge the gap between staff and user, while also reducing the observed echo chamber effect and clique behavior.

:From there, I think the best next step is to tackle inconsistent moderation. We should write down any unwritten rules and have guidelines on how to enforce them in the #rules channel itself. These will be available to all members, just like the wiki's policy pages. They should of course appear on UESPWiki:Discord as well. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 06:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::Okay, so the conversation/my thoughts have been all over the place today and my computer also BSOD'd and corrupted my draft in the middle of writing this, so I apologize if I miss anything, if anything's incoherent, etc. Anyway, to start off with I'd like to bring up two things:
::* 1) The Discord is only a year old and ballooned in size ''very'' quickly, and hasn't had a decade+ to refine things like the forum/wiki have. It's still a fluid process and constantly changing, and there are growing pains as we discover what works and what doesn't. We ''can, have'', and ''will'' make mistakes, and do our best to try to learn from them. The best thing, as Enodoc said, is not just to point out what's wrong, but also to suggest ''solutions''.
::* 2) The Discord is very much its own beast with its own format and challenges: '''way''' bigger in functionality and scope than the IRC (with hundreds of users online at any given time and constant activity in a number of channels, not to mention occasional voice chat), and the speed/volume of messages are in a completely different league from the wiki/forum. Moderating it isn't easy, and can get extremely draining, and could easily be a full-time job. It's something of a new frontier for us, and as mentioned in my first point, we're still figuring out what works: trying a variety of things from our wiki, forum and IRCs, as well as coming up with ideas of our own.
::@Rob: ''"That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning [...] only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional"'' - I think we can agree that statement ''was'' concerning; however, as was mentioned in the Fullerton discussion, that conversation was neither the time nor the place, and I think we all needed a bit of a breather after that before starting another major discussion. Barely waiting one day after that was resolved seems a bit sudden to view the lack of response as an example of negligence. That said, I ''had'' intended to PM you about it once I got home from work tonight (or perhaps tomorrow; I was there 11 hours today).
::Anyway, to try and address some of the major points everyone's brought up:
::* '''Foundership''': I agree that Dave should have the highest role and full control over each part of the site: it's right as he is the site owner, he has the control in case of a rogue or inactive admin, and I think it keeps him informed on what's going on as far as staff changes, etc. I don't think there are too many features the owner role can change that another admin cannot (aside from giving users the admin role). However, it should be noted that AKB - as the owner of a server partnered with Discord itself - also is part of the private partners-only server which as I understand it has a direct line to Discord (able to inform us of discussions about the platform there and share our input); if Dave does not wish to do follow that, we should probably know if AKB can remain there if he no longer holds that role.
::* '''Staff''': Baratron pretty much summed it up: staff as it currently stands (as of about Oct 31) includes existing staff who were asked and decided they wanted to remain as Discord moderation, people who were made Recent Changes patrollers since then who were offered and accepted, and more recently our Tea Party Mods (active, mature role models from the Discord). For you, @Kitkat, as far as I can tell from searching the server you started chatting on October 15th, which was right in the midst of our discussing reorganizing the staff roles; you were also inactive on the wiki and didn't sound sure on the 17th how active you would be, and you left on the 29th which was within a day or two prior to us settling the staff thing. Had you stayed, you would have been offered the Discord Staff role. I'm also not sure what you mean about mocking/dissing; the only admin comment about you after you left aside from regret/surprise was one that didn't sound mocking to me: it was to members who hadn't known you before, to the effect that some users like you have had long periods of leaving and rejoining randomly later, and that he thought you'd show up again randomly after another such period and looked forward to seeing you again.
:::On politics, I'm actually right-wing myself. I'm not sure who else is, but as Ulf said politics don't come into play in our moderation: everything generally falls under the general UESP wiki/forum rules (PG-13, be polite, etc. Could use some cleanup though as mentioned below).
::* '''Accountability/Transparency''': This is definitely been one of the messier parts where we've tried different things, moderators viewed it in different ways, etc. Thus far, we've had a bot to log deleted comments, bans, etc in a staff-only channel, and the #dungeon (aka #mediation) is logged by a staff member before clearing it. That channel itself has value for the rare occasions we've needed it: both as a soft-ban to discuss things rather than ban outright, and a private place for users to speak to us when they are not comfortable sharing something publicly. There are benefits and drawbacks to making decisions publicly vs privately (I agree with a lot of Enodoc and Ulf's points), but due to Discord's rapid-fire, high-volume format, I've viewed the way we've done it as adequate thus far. (On that note, @Kitkat, I was indeed surprised a couple years ago when I saw that the wiki kept a public list of IRC bans. I never agreed with the edit reason given for the deletion of the Discord bans page, since either way that's inaccurate - the fact that it was poorly updated might've played into it, I don't know; as far as I remember the reason was that after a couple of trolls started banhopping repeatedly we thought it was incentive for them. Can't find the original discussion atm and it's 4:30am, but there were indeed [https://i.imgur.com/EZU2rH9.png comments like that] made when discussing reinstating it.) '''Anyway/TL;DR''', to cut off my rambling, as Dillon mentioned this thread has spurred discussion on doing a public channel and how that might best be handled, so this is looking to change and address the concerns mentioned.
::* '''Rules''': We've been told by some that we're too strict, others that we're not strict enough, and others that we're just right and that this is the best TES server. But at any rate I absolutely admit that the Discord page on the wiki has long been woefully out-of-date, and the #rules channel on the server could use some cleanup/clarification (as well as #staffrules - rough draft of guidelines for staff - which has been around for a few months and should probably be added to the public lists).
::* '''Cross-platform interactions:''' My personal view is that UESP staff should be recognized for their role across the board and also that they should conduct themselves as such, regardless whether they are staff on that particular part of it. If there is a case where we think the wiki or UESP as a whole is affected by something on the Discord - as we felt was the case with Fullerton - we bring it to the wiki. I absolutely agree that wiki-editing decisions should be made on-wiki, i.e. the examples Kitkat gave; this was something that people slipped up with on IRC sometimes too, but for the most part people try to keep it on-wiki. However, that goes both ways: while Discord isn't the best place to make wiki decisions due to not enough wiki editors seeing it, the wiki is not the best place for Discord decisions due to not enough Discord users seeing it (particularly if the decision is made by people who don't/rarely/have not recently used the Discord). I think we definitely need to keep the Discord page on the wiki updated better, however, and make sure that any changes are reflected there. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 10:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

=== Edit Break: Discord 1 ===
:''(Note: I was edit conflicted by at least Alarra's response, maybe more, and have not gone over the most recent post(s).)''
Okay, there's obviously quite a lot to cover here. Since a couple of different people mentioned that there have been changes in how the Discord is run over the last few months since I left, I'll start by saying that that may well be true, but I've heard negative comments about our Discord here and there since I left, but no positive ones. It was hearing those sorts of things that convinced me that there were still issues.

To explore those issues some more, after recent discussions, I decided to join Thalmor Justiciar's server to see what sorts of things went on there, get an idea of just how anti-UESP thing were, and just to be able to provide another pair of eyes in the event that another issue came up. I was welcomed by a couple of people, and outright told to "fuck off" by a couple of others, who wanted to know why I'd even been allowed on their server. While they didn't specifically say why at the time, they really only know me from one thing, and that's UESP's Discord server. Okay, that sounds like anti-UESP sentiment on the surface. Earlier today, after I decided that I needed to write my original post, I probed a little more and asked what they thought the problems were on UESP's Discord. While there were certainly some less than helpful comments, overall, I found some very thoughtful people there who had a fair bit to say on the matter, and their complaints were in line with other things that I'd heard elsewhere or seen myself. They weren't anti-UESP, they were anti-people-who-treated-them-unfairly. It said a lot to me that after I posted my original post and Silencer replied, they renamed their main channel in our honour. Humorous, but that showed me very clearly that they're not anti-UESP at all. They just want things to change, and they saw our two posts as finally starting that process. Several of them even said something specifically to that effect.

And it wasn't just on TJ's server. I got thanked for starting this discussion here, in PMs, and on other servers by both people who'd left and people who are still active in UESP's Discord. So, if things are changing, clearly, there's more that needs to be done. The fact that Bryn commented that he only left a month ago due to escalating issues with the management also says that there are ongoing issues.

Since raising this topic, I've also heard comments like "a lot of talk, but nothing's going to change", "the new staff channel will be used for propaganda, but things will still mostly be discussed behind closed doors", and "AKB will never voluntarily give up foundership". There is an incredible amount of distrust and resentment out there in some parts of the community, and there needs to be a lot of work put in to fix it. Some of it, I expect, will only go away with time and good, predictable moderation, as others have mentioned.

While we're on the topic of AKB, I'm sure some people think I'm gunning for his job, or that I hate him. Neither could be further from the truth. I have neither the energy nor the time to do his job, and I'm frankly amazed at his and Alarra's skill at managing most of our social media. While AKB and I have argued a lot over various aspects the Discord server, and there are times he's lost my respect in a certain area, I cannot say that I hate him. The worst that I would say about him is that I don't think he's right for the job of being the founder of our Discord server. If Dave won't/can't take the job (more on that later), then there are other people I'd love to see in that role, but we can discuss that more when the time comes.

Okay, on to specific topics. I'll take these in reading order, so they'll probably jump around a lot:
* Enforcement vs. friendly moderation: This is one that I meant to bring up and forgot. Time and time again, I've seen the enforcer admins, but I've rarely seen the friendly moderator admins. I remember one instance where someone was getting antsy about our language restrictions, and I believe it was a patroller or admin who said something to the effect of "these are the rules, follow them or be banned". It might not have been that harsh, but it certainly wasn't anything friendly and helpful, either, and the user seemed a bit taken aback. I came in behind them and explained that we have a lot of minors in the channel, and people who are just coming to the server, and so we try to maintain a friendly, welcoming place, with minimal swearing, especially in the main channel. All of a sudden, the user was perfectly understanding and happy to respect our rules. This is the sort of thing that I think we need to work on.
* Moderation room (fka "dungeon"): Yes, I'm aware that it's the last step before a ban. From what I've seen of how it's used, however, people are completely isolated from all other help. Could they request that someone be brought in? Sure. But that ignores the concept of witnesses—people who might, for example, spontaneously comment ''"Oh, I didn't think it was a big issue."'' or ''"You're totally misreading this situation."'' if they were aware that there was a problem, but would likely have no opportunity to comment if the person were pulled into a private moderation room. In most cases, one would hope that these sorts of comments would occur before moderation was started, but things don't always work out that way. We've certainly seen something like that with the Fullerton/Legoless issue where some people mentioned the ethnicist first name that Legoless himself was sometimes known to use and the O', but then Legoless himself came along and said was ancillary to the doxxing itself. If that same scenario had played out in a slightly different way, with Legoless being a regular user, a twitchy admin could pull someone into the moderation room for being overtly racist, and the regular person who was supposedly the target would have no clue, and no chance to respond that this just wasn't an issue at all, or that they're actual RL friends and joke this way all the time, or whatever.
* On a related topic, we need to provide them the ability to appeal a ruling, and make sure users are aware of how to do that if they're banned for anything that isn't a gross violation of our rules (so, likely anything that gets them into the moderation room in the first place). Right now, once they're banned, they're banned. They may not be able to track down other admins if they don't already have contact with those people, and of course, many don't even know who Daveh/Reorx is because they're not active on forums or the wiki.
* I agree that a person who acts badly in one place is likely to act badly in another, and that certain issues warrant cross-platform discipline. I don't want to seem too black-and-white on that issue. However, I also think it behoves us to minimize drama overall and make sure that any disciplinary action is appropriate to the level of the infraction.
* @Enodoc: this topic was, indeed, not entirely relevant to the discussion of Fullerton. When an admin makes a statement that strong, however, I would have expected ''someone'' to contact me on my talk page, by e-mail, or wherever else. I realize that I'm not always the paragon of calm, and that I can sometimes be grouchy and pedantic, but I would hope that people know I don't make that kind of statement without a lot of forethought. I was a bit surprised that absolutely nobody from the Discord did. As she alludes to, I had written Baratron privately, so she had some idea of the issues, but that really should have set off a lot more alarm bells than it appeared to. It's probably just as well that it played out this way, though, because it gave me time to realize that this really needed to be a public discussion, and to think about what I wanted to bring up. As far as Discord not being a wiki, you're absolutely right, and I acknowledge that things can't always work the same way there as they do here. However, that doesn't negate the community perceptions, the wildly fluctuating moderation, and most of the other issues that I and others have brought up in this discussion. These are not issues specific to any medium, they're just plain issues.
* I touched on much of this in my intro text, but if Dave is an unsuitable choice, then elections can be held, or whatever other process we decide works best. There are certainly admins who are highly active who have reputations for being level-headed and fair who would be quite capable of the job. I'm curious, though, in what ways you see the need for someone who's more active and able to respond quickly that admins themselves can't fulfill. I fully admit, your knowledge of Discord far exceeds mine, but most of what I remember us having to ask AKB to do were not what I would consider urgent matters.
* On the topic of staff, yes, indeed, existing staff generally approach potential new staff about whether they want to take on a position. Here on the wiki, however, and I believe on the forums, the general membership have a say, and they have the ability to propose new people in a formal setting. That facility doesn't currently exist on the wiki. If staff are the only ones who have a say in who is brought on, the current perception of cliquishness will only increase.
* Transparency issues include things like new server rules, moderation decisions where there's any debate as to the correct action, or pretty much any other discussion whatsoever that doesn't involve personal information. I especially think that some of the forbidden words and memes would have benefitted from a wider discussion. They may well have ended up exactly the same, but I remember a few people having vastly different experiences of certain things, and I think involving more people would have been beneficial, rather than giving the perception that decisions are made, nobody except admins really understands why, and there is no recourse.
* On the accountability issue, I have seen occasions of admins suppressing posts which, while they may have been dubious, were not outright breaches of any rules. Perhaps the admins were right to, perhaps they weren't, but again, where is the recourse for any disagreements? With the admins themselves. That screams cliquishness and unfairness.
* On to deleting comments, I have a few times seen admins or others delete comments that would paint them in a bad light after the fact. This is particularly problematic for admins, since they can bully other users, then erase the tracks of their bullying, or even the entire discussion, casting themselves in a more favourable light after the fact than they did at the time. I've seen this happen myself, and I've had it reported to me by others. This is a ''huge'' accountability issue.
* ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential."'' That sounds good, in theory, but I think kitkat covered this fairly clearly: any user who feels they've been treated unfairly ''must'' have the ability to share their experience with whomever they feel they need to, and hold staff accountable for their actions. Another staff member, or Daveh, is obviously preferable, but if they don't feel that's an option, I think they should have the right to share information that is primarily about themselves, as long as they're not disclosing other people's personal information or grossly violating server rules in the process.
* ''"Dave has the right to challenge him if he (Dave) feels that AKB is doing a bad job"'' Challenge, yes, but ultimately, he cannot actually remove AKB as founder. About the only recourse if it were decided that AKB should step down as founder and he chose not to would be to create an entirely new channel. Having gone through that with the IRC community many years ago, when it had maybe 40ish users all told, I'm not eager to see it happen with close to 2000. I personally don't think it would ever actually come to that, but as I said above, others clearly do.
* As far as people having an objection specifically to AKB, yes, I would have to say that they do. Many people have complained about various administrators in the discussions I've had, some just griping, while others had more relevant points, but AKB's name has come up more than all others combined. (And I'm discounting here the one or two people whom I know were banned for cause...I'd kind of expect them to complain about the person that banned them.)
* For the appointment of guild leaders, I wasn't aware of the specific process, though I can't say it surprises me. As noted, however, a lot of people feel that they should have had some say in who is moderating the Discord server, and that appointment process, even if by Dave, gave them no choice to voice their opinions. Just to be clear, though, I wasn't specifically singling out any specific user (or users) in my statement. People have complained about unelected moderators, so I brought up the examples I could think of.
* On the topic of Dave vs. an elected founder, that does pose a contradiction. I consider Dave to be the exception to the rule for a couple of reasons, however. First and foremost, he is the owner of UESP, and his "election" is that people keep coming to his site. If he weren't competent and suitable for such a role, people wouldn't keep coming here. Second, he has a 20-year record of fair, arm's-length moderation, and in most parts of the site, he already has more rights than anyone.
* For the moderation room, I agree that clearing it makes sense between users. I have no objections to that whatsoever! But, in the event that that user complains about what someone said or did, whether it's to another admin or to Dave, logs of that discussion should be available, or the admins end up being unaccountable for their actions.
* Off-topic comments in the middle of serious discussions can indeed be a distraction. I consider that part of the job. Hopefully, when asked to do so in a channel geared towards moderation, people would quiet down and stop commenting with unhelpful things, but if they don't, there are other options, like muting or even kicking that can be employed as stronger measures if absolutely needed. Similarly, if a channel is named something like "Moderation" or "Policy Discussion", I think you'll find that even if it's open to the public, 1900 of those 2000 users previously mentioned won't be able to find the ignore button fast enough. That should substantially mitigate the amount of unrelated discussion on its own. Whether it's policy or moderation, though, I definitely ''don't'' propose holding these discussions in the general channel, or anything close to it. I'm not sure if it would be entirely feasible, but perhaps there could be some kind of invitation system, where a general call is put out in the main channel for people interested in discussing a certain topic to go to a specific room? That would cut down on side-chatter I think, but I'm not sure if that would be a practical way to go about things in terms of the Discord mechanics of it.

Okay, I think that covers everything I felt I could and/or needed to respond to. Sorry it's so big, but so is this discussion! :) If there's anything I missed, please ask. As a final note, I'm really happy with how this discussion has gone to this point, and I'm glad to hear that it has already prompted some changes. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 10:54, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:OK. I’d been hesitant to respond here since I am one of the newest staff members, and a lot of issues that people are bringing up are behind-the-scenes things that I wasn’t around for. But there are a couple of things that I really need to address, based on my experience on IRC channels for another game.
:* '''Re: Leaking conversations''': While I understand the argument some people are trying to make, that if someone is being insulted or thinks they are being mistreated, that they should be able to get a second opinion on the issue. That’s great, in theory. But I’ve also had plenty of experience with people taking information from private conversations, leaking it to other people, and using it to harass me. Any frustration I wanted to vent, any less-than-absolutely-positive opinion I might have about someone else, any personal detail I might share, could and often would be used against me. And it fucking sucks to have to be paranoid about any supposedly private interaction you have just because some people think that any conversation had on a chat server must be in full view of the public or not take place at all. People are going to disagree with each other. People are going to get frustrated about things and need to vent. And the staff are people too. We need a space where we can say things without constantly being under a microscope. I would like to believe that there’s a balance that can be reached between transparency and privacy, but judging by some of the previous comments on this thread, I’m not so sure.
:* '''@Robin''' ''Could they request that someone be brought in? Sure. But that ignores the concept of witnesses—people who might, for example, spontaneously comment “Oh, I didn't think it was a big issue.” or “You're totally misreading this situation.”'' You have a lot of faith in people to do or say the right/reasonable thing after a friend has acted up. And you seem to think that a witness saying something ‘’wasn’t that bad’’ should automatically be trusted. And frankly, a witness making comments like that is exactly why I think #mediation should not be public. You let the public in on every disciplinary discussion, and there will be people downplaying every offense. There are plenty of people out there that have no concept of what is too far. Letting them second-guess everything staff does is only going to create more dysfunction, not less. Again, there is probably a balance that can be found. But your ideas of transparency regardless of the practicality and encouraging absolute distrust in staff are not helpful.
:* '''@kitkat''' You brought up the crafting motif page merge, and completely missed the point. If people were acting unilaterally based on discussions on the discord, that merge would have happened. Instead, what happened was Enodoc ‘’proposing’’ the merge, and a discussion happening on the talk page. Which is exactly what should happen! We had an idea on Discord, then proposed it on the related wiki page. There was no actual action taken besides putting a banner on the page saying a merge was proposed. But it’s important to understand that Discord is a live chat, and that discussions like these will come up. Stifling us from discussing wiki pages on a discord server for the wiki is a ridiculous and untenable idea. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 16:47, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
:::I don't have time to respond to all the points in this discussion, but I did want to say one thing.
:::In all my years on the internet, I've never run across a community whose rules/moderation weren't seen as heavy handed, biased, unevenly applied, secretive, or otherwise just plain bad by some portion of the population. Yes, this absolutely does include UESP Wiki. No matter how democratically, transparently, and pleasantly done, controlling conversations will always result in someone thinking its gone too far. Furthermore, the the displeased portion of a community will ''always'' be more vocal than the pleased or unimpacted portion.
:::None of that is to say that things shouldn't (or aren't) be done to improve the current situation. But there is no set of solutions that will make everyone happy all the time. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 17:21, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::The absolutely unimpacted people are the 1750 people who don't talk in the server and have no realistic intention to ever do so. But, for the few dozen that do talk or participate, ''everything'' impacts them eventually. What happens in one case can create a precedent to allow the exact thing to happen again. You're absolutely correct that not everyone can be pleased all of the time, but if there's a large amount of people who aren't happy or have grievances with the way things are going, that means those in a position of power have '''a responsibility''' to find the changes needed to get as close to having as many people happy as it's possible to get, whether that be a policy change or just a change in their own personal conduct. '''Failure to do so is completely irresponsible''' and can disullion people and disencourage participation if they don't feel like their wants are not being completely met by the server, and that's the root of all problems right now. In the many months I've been there (and in the time I've not from second-hand accounts) the staff have a habbit of appearing to either not care about their fellow members or only caring just enough to appease them for 20 minutes until it goes away. It won't be fixed hiding behind closed doors talking amongst yourselves when there's a history of accounts of backstabbing or shit-slinging about users behind their backs. I genuinely believe the matters brought up in the introduction to this thread will not be fixed unless it's specifically called out here on the hub of all UESP activity in a public venue where there's no choice ''but'' to finally address any outstanding issues. Even if it's unpleasant to talk about, that's why I applaud Rob for finally being the one to speak up. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 17:51, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::: In response to FioFioFio. ''“You brought up the crafting motif page merge, and completely missed the point.”''That’s interesting, considering that you missed every single other point I raised, including the one about the sustained mocking and jeering of a specific user without their knowledge, or my anecdote about how a bully used an expectation of privacy in chat logs to make me feel isolated and afraid.

::::: Nevertheless, I’ll bite; the issue at hand is that the even preliminary stages of a discussion which directly impacts the wiki should be taking place on the wiki, so that every user has an opportunity to contribute from the get-go. When discussions are held on Discord, and only moved to the wiki as an afterthought, any user who isn’t active on the server is automatically put at a disadvantage, not only having to play catch up, but also missing nuances of what was said and by whom. That’s not how a community editing project should work; it alienates people who don’t wish, for whatever reason, to use Discord. It also frequently means that by the time the discussion is held, everyone from the Discord server has reached an agreement, and the sole user who wasn’t privy to the initial conversation is left as the lone dissenter. In all honesty, though, I think Silencer said it better than I ever could:

::::: ''“The collective wisdom of discord, as with any other off-site area, can be overridden by one anonymous editor on the wiki, purely for the fact that it is on the wiki. Those are our rules, which those on discord may wish to learn before deciding again that they have the authority to change the wiki when they do not.”''

::::: Also: ''“No matter how much agreement you had on discord the only place that matters officially is the wiki. No decision taken on discord can over-ride or replace a decision taken on the wiki, and any amount of 'no disagreements' you can claim elsewhere is ignorable.”''

::::: There’s also the issue that no conversation records from Discord are easily accessible on the wiki; if somebody wants to figure out why a decision was made in the future, and the entirety of the rationalization was made on Discord, that presents a serious informational gap.

::::: With regard to the other points that you raised, I’d like to know why you’re under the impression that the [[Uespwiki:etiquette|etiquette]] policies of the wiki don’t apply to the Staff channels. Per the guidelines for the Discord server, "All behavioral policies on the wiki are in effect in the channel."

::::: “While I understand the argument some people are trying to make, that if someone is being insulted or thinks they are being mistreated, that they should be able to get a second opinion on the issue. That’s great, in theory.” Sorry, no. Regardless of the rest of what’s being discussed and mulled over, this is not a matter for debate. If someone feels they’re being insulted or mistreated by figures of authority, they must be able to get a second opinion on the issue. It’s imperative.

::::: “But I’ve also had plenty of experience with people taking information from private conversations, leaking it to other people, and using it to harass me.” You’re being very vague. How private are these private conversations? One on one? A small, close knit group? What sort of information, and what sort of harassment? If you feel you’ve been mistreated, seek recourse.

::::: “And the staff are people too. We need a space where we can (s)ay things without constantly being under a microscope..” Are you saying that the Staff channels, which theoretically should be for discussing the running of the channel, were used to vent “any frustration” or “any less-than-absolutely-positive opinion” that you had about other users, behind their backs? Because that sounds incredibly toxic. I’ll reiterate that the policies of the wiki are supposed to be enforced on the Discord Server; this includes on the staff channels, ostensibly. If you’re insulting other users, the people you’re "venting" to are well within their rights to call you on it. Hell, Fullerton was removed from being a patroller for mistreating another user on Discord; according to the precedent set by that, “venting” about other users to the point of personally attacking them could actually be grounds for being given a warning on the wiki.

::::: “''You have a lot of faith in people to do or say the right/reasonable thing after a friend has acted up.''” [[UESPWiki:Assume_Good_Faith|Assume Good Faith]] is a core tenet of the wiki.

::::: ''“Encouraging absolute distrust in staff are not helpful.”'' RobinHood is not the one who has created an atmosphere where the staff are widely distrusted; in fact, attitudes like yours, that you can’t ''“let the public in on every disciplinary discussion”'' because God forbid they might disagree with the Staff, have done far more to create an atmosphere of hostility and distance between ordinary users and moderators. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 18:37, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::: I'll thank you not to quote "Assume Good Faith" at me when you are assuming that everyone disagreeing with you, including staff who have been added to the Discord after you left, are acting with the most malicious intent possible.

:::::: ''You’re being very vague. How private are these private conversations? One on one? A small, close knit group? What sort of information, and what sort of harassment? If you feel you’ve been mistreated, seek recourse.'' My comments were vague for a reason. The incidents I'm referring to happened on an IRC server '''for another game'''. But since you ask, it was a group of people harassing me, with I had assumed were private (both one-on-one and with small groups I thought I could trust) being used against me multiple times, and I had no recourse because while I was a moderator of some channels, so were some of the people harassing me (in the same channels).

:::::: Yes, I didn't address staff mocking a user in staff channels. Why? Because I only got added to those staff channels in the past couple weeks. I don't think it's my place to address that specific issue.

:::::: Back to the Crafting Motifs page, there's nothing in your latest comment worth addressing while you continue to assume no discussion about wiki content can happen on Discord and that wiki editors who also use Discord should have less weight in discussions than those who do not because (gasp!) we might have discussed the issue on Discord!

:::::: So, to sum up, I'll reiterate, don't quote "assume good faith" at me and then make a wall of text assuming bad faith in me. If you can't offer me that much respect, I have nothing else to say to you. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 19:34, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: If you’d like to read over my post again, you’d see that I wasn’t ordering '''you''' to Assume Good faith – I was pointing out that RobinHood ''was'' assuming good faith, and that you were questioning him on why he had done so. Far from believing that everyone disagreeing with me is acting ''“with the most malicious intent possible”'' - which is not something I’ve ever said or thought - I feel that the contributions of Enodoc, Alarra and Dillion to this discussion have gone a long way to explaining the decisions of staff members in certain situations.

::::::: ''“My comments were vague for a reason. The incidents I'm referring to happened on an IRC server for another game.”'' I was under the impression from the context of your first post that these incidents had taken place in a UESP affiliated channel. Given the rest of the discussion’s subject matter, I don’t feel I was unreasonable in thinking this.

::::::: ''“Wiki editors who also use Discord should have less weight in discussions than those who do not because (gasp!) we might have discussed the issue on Discord!”'' I actually said exactly the opposite of that; wiki editors who don’t use Discord should not have less weight in discussions as a result of being excluded from the initial parts of any given conversation. If something is affecting the wiki, it should be debated on the wiki, in the interests of fairness and inclusion of every user. Those who use Discord can also use talk pages. There’s nothing preventing them from doing so.

::::::: ''“There's nothing in your latest comment worth addressing”'' is honestly not very conducive to what’s intended to be a problem-solving discussion. You haven’t addressed any of the points I raised in significant detail, you’ve instead gone straight to taking umbrage at my tone and claiming you have nothing else to say to me. One could be forgiven for thinking that you didn’t actually have anything to add which would refute my arguments. I've acknowledged your points; you seem reluctant to give credence to mine. The conversation is now being derailed by attempts to personalize a disagreement on policies. FioFioFio, if you have an issue with me as opposed to with my arguments, feel free to take it up in a more appropriate forum and I’ll be happy to hear you out. For now, I’d prefer if we could stick to the matter at hand. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 20:42, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I just have a quick comment on the issue of deleting the wiki's log of Discord bans. As far as I can remember, it was considered redundant (lit. "serves no purpose") because Discord automatically keeps a log of everyone who has been banned. Replicating that log somewhere else didn't seem necessary. Also thanks to everyone who's started to provide some suggestions to address these issues. I haven't been on Discord yet today but I am hoping some of these will have already started being considered. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:(As always, I'm a few comments behind...discussion is moving too quickly.)
@Alarra: As much as my descriptions of UESP's Discord server may have been negative, I do understand that there will be growing pains. My ultimate goal here is not simply to complain, but to improve how things are done so that no one feels unwelcome on our server (apart from trolls and the like, obviously). In my original post, I tried as much as possible to suggest solutions like new chatrooms, different visibility on existing ones, etc., but, of course, a lot of the time I don't have a ready solution for something. It's still important to bring up those issues, though, in the hopes that someone else ''will'' have a suggestion or solution. A great example of that was the new staff channel Dillon suggested.

''"Barely waiting one day after that was resolved seems a bit sudden to view the lack of response as an example of negligence."'' Okay, mea culpa on that one. Being on disability and being home all the time, I have to admit to a distorted sense of time sometimes, in the sense that I occasionally forget what day of the week it is and/or that other people have jobs and don't spend most of their time in front of a computer. My apologies to everyone for that.

I think most of the rest of what you've said doesn't really need comment, at least not from me. You raise some excellent points. The only other thing there that I do want to mention is that, for the Discord ban page, my recollection is that it was seen as largely redundant to the server logs at the time, and yes, there was at least a perception that it might be used as a high-score list. There were certainly a lot of trolls/vandals at around then, but obviously, it's hard to prove whether they were specifically aiming to "score" or simply being persistent. At the time, I may have even agreed with, or at least been neutral to, the deletion of the bans page. I certainly don't recall having any great objection to its deletion. However, in light of the concerns about transparency, I think it might not be a bad idea to re-create the page (using it from this point forward...trying to recreate historical info is probably impractical at best). That'll probably give users a bit more security that bans aren't being misused or overused.

@FioFioFio: I totally get the concept of venting and/or saying something less-than-flattering about someone because it's a private conversation. That's human nature, to some degree. Honestly, I may well have been one of the people who commented negatively about the user Kitkat has made reference to. Nevertheless, when staff are "officially" dealing with the users whom they manage, even in a private channel, there needs to be a high level of professionalism. If that breaks down, as it obviously did in Kitkat's case, I believe that privacy goes out the window in favour of preventing abuse. Not completely—like so many things, this isn't a black-and-white situation—but if something is needed to demonstrate the abuse, I feel that that's fair game.

As others have commented, I honestly feel that ''most'' disciplinary actions should be at least available to the general membership, if not including them (exceptions, as always, for discussions involving personal info/situations). It encourages a much higher level of professionalism and ensures that staff can justify their actions not just to themselves, but to everyone. Clearly, the general channel with hundreds of currently active users is inappropriate, but I don't see the problem with having a moderation-specific channel. Yes, people will insert a great many opinions, some of which will be annoying or irrelevant, and some will downplay any offence. Nevertheless, a lot of those opinions could be valuable, and could modify an otherwise excessive admin response. Yes, I do have a lot of faith in people to do the right thing. I'm not naive, people don't always do so, but for staff to specifically state that they don't have that faith, much less incorporate it into their rules and procedures, is to imply that they don't trust their users. How can there ever be a positive environment when in that sort of scenario?

''"I'll thank you not to quote "Assume Good Faith" at me when you are assuming that everyone disagreeing with you, including staff who have been added to the Discord after you left, are acting with the most malicious intent possible."'' If that's your read on this, then there's been a huge breakdown in communication somewhere along the way. This is intended to be a productive discussion of issues, and I have seen nothing notable from anyone here that suggests otherwise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:25, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T18:37:46Z

Kitkat1749: Reply

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T06:04:57Z

Kitkat1749:

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|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 20|Archive 20|June 2011 – August 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 21|Archive 21|September 2011 – October 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 22|Archive 22|November 2011 – December 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 23|Archive 23|December 2011 – February 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 24|Archive 24|February 2012 – March 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25|Archive 25|April 2012
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|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 27|Archive 27|July 2012 - August 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 28|Archive 28|August 2012 - October 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 29|Archive 29|October 2012 - December 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 30|Archive 30|January 2013 - March 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 31|Archive 31|March 2013 - June 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 32|Archive 32|July 2013 - November 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 33|Archive 33|December 2013 - February 2014
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|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 35|Archive 35|August 2014 - November 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 36|Archive 36|November 2014 - September 2015
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 37|Archive 37|March 2015 - February 2016
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 38|Archive 38|March 2016 - May 2017
}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}</div>
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== Getting redirected to mobile pages ==

After some debugging I've reached the conclusion that this is happening because of the Squid cache server you use: a user visits a page from his mobile phone, and the mobile version of the page gets cached in the Squid server. The next person who loads the page gets the mobile version, regardless of what platform he's browsing from, because that's what's saved in the Squid cache.

This only happens to unregistered users, since logged in users don't have their caches paged by Squid. If it happens to you, you can press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Squid to bypass its own cache and serve you the current page.

But, please, fix it. It is very annoying. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 17:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the note...this shouldn't be the case as the desktop and mobile versions of the page are different URLS (en.uesp.net and en.m.uesp.net) but a quick test seems to agree with you. I'll check it out further and see if it can be fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::So I must have got really lucky with my quick tests as I can't recreate the issue in on other page or with the original page (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa) once I purge it. If you can give some more explicit examples of how you are testing it so we can replicate that would be great. Squid does cache using the full URL so it would seem that this is not the complete issue at the very least. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::One of your assumptions is wrong. All users get the mobile theme from en.uesp.net, provided they have the user-agent of a mobile browser.
:::A quick way to reproduce this with a computer would be like this. '''Do all of this while logged off!'''
:::* Open Google Chrome and hit F12, this will open the developer tools toolbox. At the top-left side of this toolbox, the second icon next to the mouse cursor is a mobile and a tablet ("Toggle device toolbar"), click it. You'll see the current page has stretched; click the dropdown on top of it that says "Responsive" and switch it to some mobile phone, "Galaxy S5" is OK. Now, you're sending the user-agent of a Samsung mobile phone.
:::* Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa -- depending on who visited it the last time, it'll be the full or the mobile version.
:::* Press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Chrome to reload the page, telling the web server to completely disregard the cache. This will make Squid destroy its own cache and ask MediaWiki for the webpage. You'll see the mobile version appear as it should: MediaWiki is being told you're a mobile phone, and therefore you're getting the wiki with the mobile theme.
:::* Open a new tab. This time, it's the normal browser; you're not pretending to be a mobile. Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa You'll get the mobile version of the wiki. This confirms it's cached in Squid like that because you just visited it from a mobile phone. Press Ctrl+Shift+R, this way Squid will destroy its cache and ask MediaWiki again for the webpage. You'll get the full version, because you have the user-agent of a computer.
:::* Switch back to the mobile tab. Click the URL field and press enter to reload the webpage making sure you're '''not''' bypassing the Squid cache. You'll get the full version of the page, because that's what you cached. If you press Ctrl+Shift+R again from here, you'll get the mobile version.
:::* And so on.
:::I hope you can reproduce it. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 18:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::::Ahh, that was it. For some reason the "autodetect" portion was still on. I turned that off and have to figure out how to auto-redirect mobile devices to the mobile site (which I thought it was doing). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I made some changes which include a forced redirect to the mobile site to prevent the cache poisoning. Give it a go and see if that works for you now or not. It seems that MobileFrontEnd doesn't redirect itself and it is handled by another part of MediaWiki or the HTTP server in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::tyvm. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::Well, I have just realised this keeps happening. The only difference now is that instead of the whole mobile page being cached, what's cached is the redirect to en.m.uesp.net, but the effect is the same. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 11:04, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Of course it does...:) I made a quick change to try and prevent Squid from caching the 302 redirect. Once again it "seems" to work in a few quick tests but if you find otherwise let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Also had to make an unrelated change in order to get HTTPS to work for the mobile changes so the "en.m.uesp.net" mobile sites are no longer going through Squid which prevents them from being cached at all (at least for the moment until I can figure out multiple SSL certificates in Squid 2.x). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}Starting a new line - i have noticed that this has started happening again recently. (Like before, its fairly annoying, as it autochanges every time). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Testing New Ad Network ==

I happened to have a chat with some from Curse recently who mentioned that they run an ad network for gaming related sites which includes better vetting of ads to reduce/eliminate the number of "bad ads" (auto scrolling, auto playing, inappropriate content, etc...). I've signed up for a 2 month test run with them to supply all the ads on UESP during this time. I'm setting it up this week so except a bunch of changes from day to day. I'm hoping this give us roughly the same revenue to keep the site running and reduce user frustration with ads.

If you run into page errors or ad issues of any kind don't hesitate to let me know (Curse ads are not yet active). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:I'm sure a lot of people will be happy if it is an improvement. Some others will be happier with the new puns available (including the ability to Curse ads). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

::In a confused second I found myself looking for the "Like" button to express my support. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 20:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if this is an error, but as of today, AdBlock blocks ads but leaves a blank space at the top where the ad was, instead of collapsing that blank space. I'm also seeing ads at the top when logged in (or a blank space if AdBlock is enabled), but I have not logged in for a while so I don't know if that is new or was intentionally changed. '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►t]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►e]] 14:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

::::I have the same blank space as Vely, however I don't see any ads at all and I don't even have an ad blocker. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm not one to complain about blank spaces if they are caused by ad-blockers, but I've just tested with Chrome and Opera (as well as my use of Firefox) and the blank spaces at both the top and bottom are persisting when the inbuild blockers are active. The blank space can be rather off-putting and looks odd, so something should be done, whether removing it or putting one of those explanatory messages about why ads are needed. Feels odd to be cursing the lack of ads. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I did not even know there was an inbuilt blocker in Chrome, and I have certainly not actively turned it on. (Where is the setting for that?) Still there are these blank spaces on the top and bottom of the articles where the ads were supposed to be. How can this ad network give any revenue if the more common browsers are blocking the ads by default? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:My mistake, Chrome is planning to add one (by next year), I thought they already had one. Without my installed one the ads appear, with it blank spaces. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

::All the more an issue. The ads are not there on my Chrome. Just an empty space over the article and an empty space under it. And I have no known adblock software. The ads are there with Edge. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 17:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I have got the ads now, with no change in my settings. (Still Chrome on Win10) —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 05:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As a temporary workaround for the top ad taking up space when it shouldn't, I've added a means of suppressing that specific ad altogether. To do so, just add <code>#topad { display:none; }</code> to [[Special:Mypage/common.css|your common.css]] page on a new line. See [[User:RobinHood70/common.css|mine]] if you want an example. A few provisos: only logged-in users can do this, since IP users can't customize their CSS (at least, not via the wiki), and this may change or be removed at any point, since it's not an ideal long-term solution and it will obviously depend whether we want to keep the new ads in the long-run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless I'm missing something this isn't active wiki-wide nor have I touched my cs, yet the top space is gone. I've logged in and out, and on both Firefox and Opera the space is gone, though it remains on Chrome (no adblocker). Perhaps it just needed a purge with the new ads? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

::Somehow, I'm not really surprised, even though nothing I did should have had that effect. There have been a lot of different reports of ads, space, or nothing, with no apparent rhyme or reason. Caching of some kind could well be part of the problem. At least for those who are just getting a big blank space, this'll let them get rid of it. I'm largely leaving the rest to Dave, though, because I don't actually know what all was involved with the new ads, and there's clearly things affecting them that I'm unaware of, so I didn't want to poke around too much. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Can we go back to the old ads please? Or at the very least block the ones with autoplaying videos. I've been getting those on every other page, and you'll probably go deaf if you dare open more than 2 tabs. There's no way to report them, and I don't think the Steam Overlay browser supports any adblockers. [[Special:Contributions/98.18.163.16|98.18.163.16]] 00:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I see all these postings about video ads, but I can not seem to have registered any of them myself. Are there wide variations on who gets them and not? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 13:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect Escaping Issue ==

This is probably a pretty specific issue, but when you search with the <code>!uesp</code> bang on DuckDuckGo, it sends you to e.g. <code>www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim:skyrim&...</code> which gets 301 redirected to the appropriate language subdomain such as <code>en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim%253Askyrim&...</code>, but the search field seems to get double URL encoded in the process, so when it gets decoded after the redirect, colons show up as <code>%3A</code> in the search field and there's no results. This also happens with spaces, turning them into <code>%20</code>, so the search is basically unusable via the DDG bang. Hopefully this can be fixed, as it would otherwise be super convenient! [[User:DuBistKomisch|DuBistKomisch]] ([[User talk:DuBistKomisch|talk]]) 15:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

:This appears to be a problem with their coding, as it also fails when using it to search wikipedias subnamespaces. It appears they are using hex codes when converting, rather than the standard html codes used on mediawikis. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

== beyondskyrim.uesp.net? ==

I'd like to bring up the issue of this new wiki and point editors towards [http://beyondskyrim.uesp.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page this discussion]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless Dave has given his permission that wiki is infringing on our name and our site/servers. I don't believe it has permission seeing as it makes no sense to have a separate wiki on the same site, detracting from the main one, and it is duplicating the layout by wikipedia and not here. I can't see any links for contacting the site owners but if they are the same people as the ones editing here I suggest they either cease and desist or let it be known that they have dave's permission to use his servers. I've emailed Daveh, as others probably have too, to get this sorted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's hosted by us/Dave, apparently at the request of the mod authors. However, I also agree that it's damaging to our own Tes5Mod documentation to set up a competing wiki. If we're hosting it, it should be on our platform. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::: First of all, there's definitely no infringement issues, as it was set up by Dave together with one of the Beyond Skyrim team leaders. I hope Dave doesn't mind me posting this, but here's the discussion between myself and him after the BS developers concluded that they wanted to ditch their unused wiki at Dark Creations:
<pre>
Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Have you ever considered hosting other Elder Scrolls fan wikis?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
What other ES fan wikis?

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
The Beyond Skyrim guys are apparently looking to move their wiki out of Dark Creations.

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Ahh, I see
We could definitely host that for them if they'd like
We've hosted a bunch of small fan sites over the years.
TamrielRebuilt is one the larger ones (no longer with us but we had it for a while).

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Don't we still have TR stuff in the TES3Mod namespace? Or are they not using it any more?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Not sure what we have on the wiki, but they had their own web site/dev wiki seperate from ours.
I think we have some general info in the UESP wiki.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Ah OK.
Well thanks for the offer of hosting, I'll pass that on to them and see what they say!

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Yup, that goes for any ES site that happens to need hosting, temporary or otherwise.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Hmm, I will endeavour to remember that :smiley:
27 June 2017
</pre>
:::Now personally, if Dave is happy with the concept, then so am I, and since the BS wiki ''itself'' is a product of the BS team, then I don't think the UESP wiki administration has any say on whether it actually exists or not. The alternative would be that it's just hosted somewhere else. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: The Tamriel Rebuilt content we host is in-depth and high-standard, and includes the [[Tes4Mod:Stirk|Stirk Oblivion mod]] in addition to the main [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|TES3 project]] which is still updated by members of the modding team and UESP editors alike. The Tamriel Rebuilt [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ website] mentioned in the conversation above is not a (public) wiki. This Beyond Skyrim website, on the other hand, is in direct competition with UESPWiki. As you said, its existence is a decision for the modding team, but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to our own BS documentation if this goes ahead. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 18:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::The logic of having a semi-competing public wiki hosted on the same server wasn't really the concern for me. My concern was whether it had permission to be there and if it does then that's fine. There's not really any notes about what the wiki is for, or how it intends to avoid duplicity with existing content here (unless of course it intends to duplicate sections of the main wiki). This may all be due to it being in its infancy, but someone must surely have anticipated the anxiety such a wiki would create upon its creation and sought to allay any concerns by being open and upfront about its existence. The users on this wiki have always been concerned about the use of our materials without proper attribution or permission, and with good cause, so to see a new wiki using our name with no apparent endorsement was very concerning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::From the BS team's perspective, the draw for having a separate wiki over making use of Tes5Mod space was so that they had direct administrative control over it and were not bound by any of the UESP restrictions on what is actually allowed in modspace. The draw for them being hosted on the UESP server was ''intended'' to be to foster cross-cooperation between the two wikis; they get a spot on the server of a well-respected Elder Scrolls fansite, we get links from them for documentation of the primary Skyrim gameplay aspects, which they then don't need to duplicate as they are mostly unchanged, and it frees us from having to consider how to document Beyond Skyrim in the '''Depth over Breadth''' category because we know there's a dedicated wiki specifically for that purpose.

::::::For the end user, the result is essentially the same; if they're here looking for Beyond Skyrim, they'll start off at either [[General:Beyond Skyrim]] or a root page in Tes5Mod (yet to be created). From there, if we have all the content ourselves, they will either end up navigating through numerous subpages of that one Tes5Mod root page, or if we link to the BS wiki, they'll be navigating through the pages there. As long as they can find what they're looking for, I don't really think they'll care whether it says "UESPWiki" or "Beyond Skyrim Wiki" at the top. Beyond that, anyone who enters the BS wiki from other entry points, such as the official BS website, would see the close relationship with UESP and may then be inclined to visit us as well. If they were off on their own, that connection wouldn't be there.

::::::Being labelled as the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" rather than hidden away as the n'th mod covered by UESP also allows them some legitimacy, as I have always believed that there is less support for the creation of unofficial wikis on a topic if a specific community has a designated official one. I would say therefore that the UESP being the hosts of the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" shouldn't really be considered a detriment to us. The fact that Beyond Skyrim even considered the option of having UESP host their official wiki should speak volumes about how much the wider Elder Scrolls community values us as an Elder Scrolls site, and the fact that UESP/Dave agreed to host their official wiki was certainly met with a very positive reception when it was announced to the Beyond Skyrim team.

::::::So with that in mind, I would like to suggest that we act like the gracious hosts that I thought we were, and we show support for the Beyond Skyrim team and their official wiki. Beyond Skyrim needs to be documented, and they have somewhere for that to be done. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the wiki's URL is broken, and beyondskyrim.uesp.net is not intended. For all technical domain purposes, it is supposed to be wiki.beyondskyrim.org, but the certification isn't ready. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The initial talk page I linked to above has been deleted, so I suppose this discussion will have to happen UESP-side (as it should have from the start). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

: It might be worth mentioning that the uesp wiki will also have pages on us just like there are for Tamriel Rebuilt (our community was founded via Tamriel rebuilt members). The fact that the url for this new wiki contains uesp is temporary and because I haven't bought the certificates yet to use the wiki.beyondskyrim.org and devwiki.beyondskyrim.org url. {{uns|Meliodas|23:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)}}

:: So I've discussed the purpose of the public BS wiki with Meliodas at length and it doesn't appear to have very much overlap at all with our potential coverage. I'd therefore like to suggest that we limit our coverage to the released mods (currently only Bruma), which is exactly how we handle TR releases. The BS wiki is much larger in scope, and in hindsight I realise it was unfair to label it as competition since its focus is inherently different. Does this work for everyone? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

::: Sounds good to me! Seems I may have misinterpreted the purpose of the public BS wiki all along. Or perhaps its true purpose was yet to be decided, and with the hype of the Bruma release I was rushing to a conclusion that was not ready to be reached. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Agreed! It seems we have come to a solution that is good for all involved parties. --[[User:Meliodas|Meliodas]] ([[User talk:Meliodas|talk]]) 01:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach PTS ==

A little late on this update since I just got back from vacation...fortunately it is a smaller content DLC.

:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15pts Files] -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

: Awesome! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Namespace Proposal ==

If we are to be documenting the content of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]], starting with the release of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Bruma|Beyond Skyrim: Bruma]] which just came out, I think it would be beneficial to set up some pseudo-namespaces for that information, similar to what was done with [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]]. A slight difference in format here is that each province is being developed as a separate mod, unlike TR3 where everything is part of the same one, so ideally we will need pseudo-namespaces for each one of those. Right now though, all that is released is Bruma, which is part of the Cyrodiil province. So following the layout of [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] (thanks for the link, RH), I would like to propose a namespace for [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil]]:

<pre>
# NS_BASE ; NS_ID ; NS_PARENT ; NS_NAME ; NS_MAINPAGE ;
Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; BS5C ; Skyrim ; Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ;

NS_CATEGORY ; NS_TRAIL
Tes5Mod-Beyond Skyrim-Cyrodiil ; [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]
</pre>

Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:I'm not sure we need to create pseudo-namespaces for every partial release of Beyond Skyrim, particularly if we are not going to document it to the same extent as Tamriel Rebuilt due to it having its own wiki for that level of detail. I don't see any reason not to set this up at least for at least Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm leaning towards Silencer's thinking at the moment, but a lot depends on just how much documentation you're expecting, and how you intend to organize it. It makes a lot of sense to have everything under a single pseudo-namespace of Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim, so you can have parent-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Main</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Places</tt>) as well as sub-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>). But if there really isn't a need for parent-project pages, then that's just going to lead to a page structure that's all sub-project pages anyway (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Black Marsh/Places</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>), and having each different subspace defined might make more sense in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::The province mods are completely separate, just like the games in the Elder Scrolls series itself. Beyond Skyrim is an umbrella, not a project in its own right, and each mod will have its own partial releases (which is why all links from BS: Bruma already go to pages under BS: Cyrodiil). I think that format would indeed all be double-sub pages, because there would be no need for a BS/Places (if it existed, it would be ''very'' long). The level of detail we should be documenting here is pretty much the same as what we have for Tamriel Rebuilt; quests, places, NPCs, and all gameplay stuff. Conversely, the Beyond Skyrim wiki is the equivalent of lorespace, not a gamespace, and that's the sort of stuff we don't have for TR, because the depths of TR lore are on their own website at the [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/tr-handbook TR Handbook]. For a parallel, if we were to ever document the [http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/44922/? Province: Cyrodiil] mod for Morrowind, we would likely do that with a "Province: Cyrodiil" pseudospace, not a "Project Tamriel" pseudospace, because PC is a mod in its own right despite being under the PT banner. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Enodoc's suggestion sounds sensible to me: separate mods, separate pseudo-namespaces. "Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil/Places" is a bit of a mouthful but it works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that makes sense then. I just finished implementing it. Let me know if there are any issues. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spambot? ==

Not quite sure what to do with [[Special:Contributions/122.173.186.102|this IP]]. It added a corporate LinkedIn link but reverted it. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 05:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

:It's still spam, but perhaps a less severe penalty, maybe just a warning (something for future reference to know that IP has spammed before if the next move is done). Also remove the edits from public view as most spam and vandalism is these days. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Following the link provided, this company is very obviously going to be aware of social media and how it works, so my feeling is that it's a sneaky type of advertising. They know the change will be looked at, even if it's reverted. For that reason alone, I'd suggest revision deletion, and otherwise treat it like any other spammer. If it's only a one-off occurrence, there's not much point in blocking the IP, but we should keep our eyes open for similar behaviour in the near future, whether from that IP or another IP/account. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 16:09, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Account Creation Spam ==

Recently, bots or users have been making it through our captcha check and creating numerous new user accounts. Over the course of the day today, I've tried tweaking the captcha several times, starting with minor changes to the algorithm, then getting a bit more elaborate this last time. Each time, it has been followed within moments by what appear to be new random accounts. This suggests that either there's human involvement in the creations or that the bot is very broad ranging and won't be deterred short of a major change in approach. I could change to a different style of question captcha, or a different captcha completely, but if it's an actual human creating these accounts, that would be a waste of time.

For those who are wondering, they're all coming from completely different IP addresses, and most are using different naming styles, so neither blocking nor title-blocking will be terribly effective. As someone pointed out on the wiki, it's possible that some of these are non-editing accounts that are intended only to use the ESO Build Editor or just to save settings, but I'm not sure that would account for the number of accounts we're seeing, and some of the names seem really spammy in nature. It's hard to say with absolute certainty, though.

In the short term, there's not much to be done that I haven't already. In the long term, however, there are a few potential options, though most have some kind of problem associated with them:
# Put up with it, knowing a vandal could use these accounts to launch a bot attack from multiple accounts at once or in quick succession, potentially becoming a distributed denial-of-service attack (which has never happened, so not likely a big threat). In terms of not locking out legitimate users, this is probably the safest option.
# Require patroller/admin creation of all new accounts. This has several issues, the biggest being that either a communal e-mail box would have to be maintained for these applications, or some other simple mechanism of applying would have to be created. It's also possible that spammer(s) would just continue a variation of what they're doing now, and simply flood the system with requests.
# Create an extension to delete the accounts if they go completely unused and aren't logged into for X days. MediaWiki wasn't really designed with the idea of deleting users, though it is possible. The danger is that a bug in the program could delete legitimate data. Plus, it would require Dave or I to program it in the first place, since I don't see any extension that would work on a large-scale basis. (The only one I found is intended to completely wipe a single user from the database within certain limitations.)
# Switch login/account creation systems completely. The current recommended method is [http://openid.net/what-is-openid/ OpenID], which has a MediaWiki [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenID|extension]] available. That would limit a spammer's ability to create accounts based on having OpenID accounts available, but then it also requires that a real user have an OpenID account. Most do, mind you, whether they realize it or not, since it's linked with numerous common services like Google and Facebook. Of course, that's still potentially prone to abuse, depending on the spammer's ability to get around any given service's account-spam prevention. This would be entirely up to Dave to install, and may cost money...it wasn't entirely clear.

In the past, we've generally gone for option #1, but given the complaints on Discord about the wave of new user accounts, I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion again. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

:Given the relative lack of vandalism or spam by new user accounts I would be very wary of escalating a problem that doesn't ''appear'' to exist. Besides today I have not seen a huge amount (certainly not above "normal" numbers) of new accounts that would be worrying, but I know that a significant percentage of these accounts are by spam-bots that are simply getting blocked by the abuse filter, so do not ''appear'' to be what they are. As far as I can tell, we are also one of the cleanest open wikis on the net, as we've always had diligent recent changes monitors. The recent extreme vandalism is also very very rare, and we won't see the like for a long time once we are past it, certainly not enough to make me think there was something wrong with our account making process (well besides not having blocked the username "Administrator" from use). I thought the whole think was rather contained in nature, with our new Blockers having a hand in stemming the abuse. Option 2 for me is a non-starter, I think the amount of requests would far outweigh the capability of looking at and deciding the merits of them all, plus it removes the idea that we have an "open" wiki, because even if you still didn't need to log in to edit, you would need our "permission" to "join". Option 3 should be left alone too. The reason mediawiki chooses not to allow deletion is because every edit is tied to an account/IP, and deleting them means that the edit no longer has verifiability. While this is not the intention of such a program, the possibility should be locked in a vat of toxic waste and tossed into the Sun. There are problems associated with mass-deletion of vandalism from the history of pages (namely proof of the vandalism), and there will be even more problems with deletion of accounts where there is no proof of maliciousness. I just don't like Option 4, as it ties us to another site/group. It also appears that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo have abandoned it, with the only major user being PayPal. I just don't like the idea of requiring someone to have an account on another site in order to join here, though perhaps we should think of allowing people on Facebook and Google+ to associate their accounts here, and/or have the ''choice'' to use them to log in here.
:The last option still wants to improve our creation process, but it's hard to see how with any captcha as they are always vulnerable to bots. The latest method is two-factor authentication using a phone. This, as far as I can tell, requires human interaction. Required two-factor authentication either via email or phone, is one step that doesn't infringe on our openness, as the likelihood of a potential user not having one or the other is probably zero. If at all possible we could also incentivise it by reducing the time and/or amount of edits required before gaining full freedoms to edit. PS, no idea if that would affect account creation by logged in users, but obviously try to avoid it if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just to clarify, for option #3, I was referring to accounts that have no edit history whatsoever, including any deleted edits or abuse history. Also, even though it isn't required to edit, e-mail verification is already being done by the bots in many cases. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach (Update 15) Release ==

The usual file/data updates for HOTR DLC will be posted below:

:* uespLog Addon -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.20!]]
:* Achievements -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated!]
:* Champion Points -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php Updated!]
:* Skills and Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php Updated!] and double-checked
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Maps -- Nothing to update.
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15/ Uploaded!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done!]
:* Books -- Done! (upload in files and updated database)

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 13:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Is there a process for requesting the <samp>autopatrolled</samp> bit? I do a lot of typo fixing and Style Guide compliance edits, and I think the minor edit stream is annoying to patrollers. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:The process is documented at [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled Users]]. The short of it is: those with patroller permissions <s>get tired of patrolling your edits</s> notice that your edits are usually good, and nominate you to become autopatrolled. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Noted. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 21:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Mine arent fully good yet, at least not until I learn all the differences in templates/procedure. (So apologies to the patrollers in the meantime. I [[Special:Contributions/Timeoin|tend to post a lot]]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:10, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

== Site issues ==

Noticing some major issues this morning - Did we upgrade the wiki software recently or something? All of the sidebar stuff is gone, and I can no longer upload images - also the image upload page no longer lists the licenses in the licensing drop box. In addition, the UESP-specific options that usually appear below the edit window are also gone. Seems like all hidden site pages have been completely reset to defaults. The site would not let me post edits due to "loss of session data", and suggested logging out and back in, and when I did so, it would not let me log back in, claiming I had cookies disabled, which I do not. This occurs on both of my computers. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? - [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 13:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

:Okay, not sure if somebody did something, but a couple hours later, it seems to be working again. Not sure what was up with that... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 15:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::The site was down two Saturdays ago (the 19th August) in the morning, but completely down, not just not displaying properly. Not sure if its relevant but the coincidental timing is there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::: Daveh said on Discord it was due to memcached crashing every Saturday morning. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City PTS ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS. This update may take longer for me since I'm dealing with a newborn most hours of the day so if you're looking for something in particular just let me know.

:* uespLog Addon -- Seems to be working fine on PTS so far.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps - Done! I've added a link to Clockwork city from the base Mundus map but all other locations still need to be added.
:* Skills -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

:Hey Dave, the uploaded icons.zip appears to be only about 2/3 complete. Some folders are missing and it's ~70MB instead of the usual ~90MB. Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks...fixed! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== User Rename ==

Renamed Nephmir to [[User:Starkiller131|Starkiller131]] per their request. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Gift Brainstorming ==

Every year, usually around Christmas time, I like to give out an ES/UESP related gift to thank the site's contributors and fans. For example, last year we did the Tamriel map posters. In deciding what to do this and following years I'm looking for suggestions on what we could do. For now don't worry about the details too much and let your imaginations run wild. For some things there are potential issues like cost, shipping, and licensing issues but those can be dealt with once a gift project is actually chosen and started.

Some of my ideas to start with:

:* '''Coins''' -- I had some coins made for a summer camp project a few years ago and they are relatively easy/cheap with many different construction options.
:* '''Maps''' -- I love maps although since we did one last year there's no rush in doing another one. If we ever do another map I'd like to commission an artist to have a custom one drawn up for us.
:* '''UESP Merchandise''' -- Take just about anything from [http://vistaprint.ca VistaPrint] or similar sites with a UESP logo.
:* '''Books''' -- A more work intensive project but might be nice to see some of the better UESP pages/lore/art in a actual bound book.
:* '''3D Printing''' -- You can do a lot with 3D printing lately using models from games including character models or world spaces. Downside is that this is complex and relatively costly.
:* '''Replicas/Figurines''' -- The minimum order for a custom model is relatively low and within the realm of possibility. Licensing would be the main issue.
:* '''Posters''' -- You could make a poster of just about anything (ex: a nice game screenshot, lore articles, etc...).
:* '''Charity''' -- I like to give a little to charity each year when we can. Past recipients include World Vision, Charity: Water, and Child's Play. This would be in addition to the fan gift.

Looking forward to some of your ideas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

::The UESP Merchandise caught my eye, but its hard to see what would work. A mouse pad or t-shirt would not suit everyone, but perhaps a plate or glass or mug. I think my muffins would benefit in taste sitting on a plate with the logo. Another idea popped in my head when browsing vistaprint; a calendar. There are a couple of versions of the Tamriel calendar to pick from, and then pick 12 of our featured images to use for the months. You could keep it generic by leaving off the weekdays and just starting each on the first, or you could use next years dates to make it more usable. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Here is a collection of community comments I got on this:
:::*I like the idea of coins
:::*Ooh, what a really kind idea. I like the sound of coins too.
:::*I like coins
:::*Comission for a map would be really cool (I am still sad I didn't get one last time :frowning: )
:::*Illustrations and maps are neat
:::*Charity one is the best one
:::*I like the idea of posters, maps and figurines myself
:::*Coins or UESP merchandise. Seriously. I would LOVE a shirt with the UESP logo on it
:::*I also like the idea of coins
:::*I vote for shirts for the best idea now
:::*Maps are pretty gosh darn cool. You can put them on your wall and stuff. Coins are metal. It is harder to put them on walls. If this is a contest of wall-put-ability, I think maps win.
:::*I think artwork that feels like in-game product would be neat. Think a traveler's sketchbook with ink illustrations of creatures and whatnot
:::*Yeah kinda want one of those maps but maybe of all of Tamriel
:::*You know those life sized cardboard cut outs of LotR characters. Lets get those for Shadowscales. Scare the shit out of you whenever you enter your room and there is a shadow of an Argonian standing in the corner.
:::*3D Printing in-game models sounds awesome!
:::*I still like maps. Posters of iconic Vistas are cool too.
:::*As for charity. You go through TES able to kill the wildlife knowing that another will spawn... And another... And another... AND A-BLOODY-NOTHER!! Anyway, this isn't the case for the real world. Help give species a chance to up their spawn chances. As someone studying the animal sciences, I'd say the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust, as they're responsible for saving more species than any other organisation and training people in doing likewise.
:::*i think a picture of all the main races with a chunk of the province they're from behind them could make for a cool poster
:::*I would enjoy having an actual leather bound copy of an Elder Scrolls book. I may have to make one some day.
:::*like the idea of a figurine, Pelinal Whitestrake maybe?
:::*Coins and/or other in-universe memorabilia gets my vote
:::*I would adore some Septims.
:::*i wanted a big ass tamriel map for my wall last year, and i didnt got one. i even wanted to buy something like this but... no luck. maybe this year i can. soooo.. i will go with the map thing. Some septims would be nice too, tho.
:::--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I like the idea of UESP-branded wearables or coffee mugs. Wearables do have the issue of sizing and such that have to be accounted for, where mugs are fairly universal, so there's that to consider if you go for merchandise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::*I love and adore the idea of coins. The various coins which Bethesda and/or ZOS have produced to promote the various games are now collectors' items. I think we should avoid maps, because we Did That Last Year. The UESP Discord logo would look great on one side of a coin, with... I dunno, the head of Martin Septim on the back :P (Or Hermaeus-Mora, as the Guardian of Knowledge?) Can you also get writing along the edge? If so, UNOFFICIAL ELDER SCROLLS PAGES 2017 should go there :)
:::::*I would also support the idea of UESP merchandise, but I think this should be for us to purchase ourselves, e.g. through Spreadshirt. This would not make any money for the UESP, but would at least break even. In this way, we could get them in custom colours, with our UESP affiliation on. e.g. "UESP Wiki Admin" / "UESP Wiki Editor" / "UESP Forums Moderator" / "UESP Discord Admin" / "UESP Guildmaster" / "UESP Guild Officer" / "UESP Guild Member", etc. People with multiple affiliations could either position all of the text using Spreadshirt's layout tool, or pick their favourite one.
:::::*Mugs are also great, but would be super-expensive to post, even within Canada. Again, I think they should be for users to purchase themselves. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 08:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Minor Issue (Resolved) ==

As Alarra recently corrected [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Merdyndril&curid=167488&diff=1681627&oldid=1681624 here], there as a circumstance whereby they were attributed as being the author of [[ON:Message to Jena|Message to Jena]]. (See: [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Message_to_Jena&oldid=1681625 here]). The problem was that not only was it wrong, its wrong nowhere else. Except [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena right here]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
:An addendum, for clarity: there is little chance this was accidental. [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena?oldid=1894979 this was the date their page was created]. The Maulborn Cultist, [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Merdyndril?oldid=2264203 was not created until a year after]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 08:18, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::While it's likely that you're correct, this particular instance seems trivial. A note will, after all, be pretty much the same from one wiki to the next. It isn't like they copied an entire dungeon walkthrough wholesale, or used our images or what have you, at least not in this instance. For more significant instances, I believe Dave said he prefers to handle these issues himself, so I'd suggest e-mailing him or flagging him down on Discord. That policy may be out of date, though. If he refers you back to us, Atvelonis and I have spoken on occasion, so I'm happy to bring any concerns up with him if needed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::: Just to clarify Timeoin... you're complaining that Wikia copied the ''links'' of a UESP book page page on their own site's book page... back in 2015 (when you were still an admin over there and could have checked the page for plagiarism before you edited it).

::: Is this really of note for the AN board? Exactly what are you looking to achieve?

::: What I find odd is that when we were both admins on Wikia, you very rarely spoke up about the vast amounts of actual UESP plagiarism that was taking place there. I don't recall you ever reverting UESP content. It was left to the other admins to deal with. So why is it a concern now? You speak to Atvelonis on Discord, would it not make more sense to take it up with him?

::: I don't wish to start any drama, but you're clearly bitter about what happened to you over there. Which is why you're taking any opportunity get some sort of revenge. Be it the constant badmouthing, anonymous editing over there or threads like this. Its not healthy. Take it from someone who was in the same boat, but in a '''much''' worse position than you was - you need to move on. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::::Since I keeping getting pinged on Discord, here are my thoughts on the matter. Even if the UESP was the source of the mistake on Wikia, which is possible, I don't think that arguing over such a minuscule point is worth anyone's time. As others have stated above, it's just a link, and a pretty old one too. My inclination here would be to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]: it's entirely possible that same authorial assumption was made independently by users on both sites. Users add plagiarized UESP content to Wikia all the time, and I make an effort to catch this early on, especially when it comes to images. If you find something that is genuinely worth reporting, by all means inform me of it, but I don't think that being this pedantic helps anyone. —[[User:Atvelonis|Atvelonis]] ([[User talk:Atvelonis|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::::: I agree with Jimeeee. I apologise wholeheartedly. Also - I should not have pinged you, Atvelonis, and will not do so again. So ... yeah, please consider this closed? (Changed the header too - since that helps ''noone'') [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 17:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

== Move Request ==

Hello. Could an admin please move {{Deleted|Captain Velyna}} to [[Online:Captain Velya|Captain Velya]]? Velya is the proper in-game name. (Evidence: ESO Log Data). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 06:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:Could someone please also move {{deleted|ON:Domihaus (set)}} to [[ON:Domihaus|Domihaus]]? They are the same page. Thanks :) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 10:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

::I've merged Timeoin's second request because I want to make a general request that an admin start merging and deleting some pages that have been marked so. These actions can only be done by an admin, and there are a lot of duplicate pages sitting idle, as well as merge requests that haven't been done yet. Not doing these things is starting to cause a serious backlog of follow up actions, links to the wrong duplicate page appearing, as well as the confusion that is given by having empty pages being filled in when the information already exists elsewhere. There are dozens more pages I have identified as needing deleted, and have put off marking them so as to make it easier for an admin to do each page properly without knowing there are over 100 more pages marked for deletion (which there are). [[:Category:Marked for Deletion]], [[:Category:To Be Merged]]. PS A particular bugbear on merges for me is the Desolate Mine place and quest, marked for renaming by Legoless more than 2 years ago with no logical or given objection to it happening, yet no action taken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:11, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Bugbear slain. I started on the pages marked for deletion the other day, but that'll definitely take some time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Username Usurping ==

There was an account called "Zenith" made in 2009, with no contributions, and I was wondering whether I could usurp that username for a UESP account. {{unsigned|76.66.92.8|00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)}}
:Also worth noting is that this request was originally made on our Discord channel, where this user is already known as Zenith to the majority of the people on the server. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::I confirmed that the user hasn't logged in since 2009 and has no edit history, so I've gone ahead and renamed them. You may now create an account as Zenith. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City (Update 16) ==

Another ESO DLC is out today and so the usual round of updates:

:* uespLog -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.31]]! (1.31 has bug fix for guild store purchase bug)
:* Achievements --[http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated]! (new icons still need to be uploaded)
:* Skills -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills Updated]!
:* Skill Coeffients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php Done] (and checked)
:* Champion Points -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoCps Updated]!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16/ Uploaded]!
:* Books -- Done! (book text uploaded and updated in database)
:* Maps -- Done! (4 maps updated, still working on adding all locations)
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done]!
:* Items -- Done!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Translating Team for Italy ==

My friends and me would love to start translating UESP in italian.
We're good at english and we can write in HTML. We're 5 or 6 at the moment, but we can recruit more people with our skills.
I'm opening this discussion for everyone who's willing to take part in our project.
[[User:Undriel|Undriel]] ([[User talk:Undriel|talk]]) 00:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Count on me! [[User:Daffodill|Daffodill]] ([[User talk:Daffodill|talk]]) 01:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::I'd be happy to work on the italian translation [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 01:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::It sounds interesting [[User:Fenerevar|Fenerevar]] ([[User talk:Fenerevar|talk]]) 10:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm in. [[User:CurseMyName|CurseMyName]] ([[User talk:CurseMyName|talk]]) 11:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} There are no official steps to creating a translation project (the Portuguese one was a test) but unless there are any objections from admins I'll set it up in a few days once I've done most of the ESO updates from the latest DLC. Is there one person who is willing/able to take the lead/admin position for the project? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Thank you a lot. If the translation project will be approved I'll gladly take the admin position [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 10:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)LadyLigeia

{{od}} The Italian UESPWiki has been setup at [http://it.uesp.net/wiki/Pagina_principale it.uesp.net]...hopefully you can forgive the delay as I was focussed on some ESO work backlog last week. I've imported the MediaWiki and Template namespaces but nothing else at the moment. If you run into any issues on the new site let me know here or poke me at [mailto:dave@uesp.net dave@uesp.net]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

== Request for revocation of account rights. ==

After thinking over my ultimate place in the universe for a long, hard while, I've decided that this evening I'm ready to return to the UESPWiki and work on some of Jeancey's Morrowind Overhaul Project and give some love to my favorite game. I've also decided to do it without the pressure that I've always felt by being an active and regular member of staff, and I want to get back to just editing and enjoying myself.

After many long months of thinking about it on a self-imposed break, I've decided that I want to voluntarily relinquish all elevated user rights currently on my account, including my patroller rights, blocker rights, and any others that may exist that I've forgotten exist.

I am aware that, should I want them, I'll have to be renominated and be put up to a community vote again, but for the foreseeable future, I'm not at all interested in anything to do with them and I ask that an administrator handle this request at their first convenient moment, in accordance with my wishes.

Many thanks, -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 18:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Given that Damon has already qualified as a Patroller, I'd suggest that in conjunction with this request, we grant him autopatrolled status. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:: I've removed your Patroller and Blocker rights, Damon. I would support autopatrolled status if someone wants to make the [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled_Users#Nominations|nomination]]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I'll go ahead and do that, if Damon doesn't object. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

== 2018 Fan Gift ==

Christmas and the new year is quickly coming and I've been thinking about what to do for the UESP fan gift this year. I like the suggestion of a calendar made in the previous gift suggestion topic and am leaning strongly in that direction.

:* 2018 Year Calender
:* Can use Tamriel names for months and weekdays (or perhaps in addition to real names?)
:* Include both real and Tamriel holidays (make it obvious which is which?)
:* Artwork Could Be:
::* Fan Created
::* Screenshots
::* Composite (made up of Bethesda copyrighted images and others)
:: I'd rather stay away from using Bethesda original artwork to avoid the legal issues and would prefer the first 2 if we had the option.

Assuming people think this is a good idea I'd like to get started on choosing the 13 pieces of artwork for the calendar (12 months + title page) and the calendar details. Note that assuming we do a 10x17" wall calendar the artwork would have to be of reasonable size/quality.

Time flies so if we could decide on everything by the end of November that would permit printing by the start of December and hopefully shipping before Christmas. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

:What if the images were a selection of the UESP's Featured Images, where possible? We can throw together a quick vote of which ones look cooler for any particular month or season to match the feel of that time. Or move on to not-FI images if needed. Throw something [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|like this]] in for October and Halloween, for instance? Also, I would want the calendar to be completely Tamrielic, no Earthly times on it! -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 04:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, that's a good idea. I assume most (all?) of the Featured Images are screenshots correct? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Another quick thought...it may be a good idea to have several images per month composited together, especially if some of them are lower resolution. For example, we could group 3/4/5 Halloween related images for the month of October. So more options for each month would be a good thing. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've gone through the FI's and picked some that I think a more identifiable with the seasons/events. This is not a comprehensive list, a lot of the pure NPC/creature ones I left out as they are focused on that subject alone.

Winter 5: [[:File:SR-npc-Brelyna Maryon 03.jpg|Frost Atronach being summoned]], [[:File:SR-interior-Deepwood Redoubt 02.jpg|snow in a cave]], [[:File:DB-place-Edla's House.jpg|snow on a house]], [[:File:SR-creature-Ice Wraith.jpg|ice wraith with the moon over snowy mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-Alduin's Bane 02.jpg|dragons fighting on a snowy mountain]]

Spring 10: [[:File:ON-quest-The One That Got Away 02.jpg|sunrise over a lake]], [[:File:SR-place-Solitude.jpg|Solitude on a nice day]],
[[:File:ON-place-Alessia Bridge.jpg|sunny day (trees look autumny though)]], [[:File:ON-quest-Daughter of Seamount 02.jpg|sunny and cloudy day]], [[:File:SR-place-Druadach Mountains.jpg|the misty mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-The Cursed Tribe 02.jpg|a giant throwing a tantrum near some Orcs]], [[:File:SI-place-Mount Sheogorath Summit.jpg|colourful countryside]], [[:File:OB-quest-Alteration Training.jpg|bright day over a lake]], [[:File:MW-place-Lake Masobi.jpg|misty day over a lake]], [[:File:OB-quest-A Brush with Death 02.jpg|vivid trolls]]

Easter, only 1: [[:File:OB-quest-Bear Season.jpg|the anti-Easter message (bears eat sheep)]]

Summer 5: [[:File:MW-place-Ghostfence.jpg|the dust near Ghostfence]], [[:File:ON-place-Weeping Giant.jpg|stone giant taking a nap]], [[:File:ON-place-Upper Craglorn.jpg|a sunny river]], [[:File:OB-quest-Go Fish.jpg|a fish with big teeth on a sunny day]], [[:File:MW-place-Nchuleftingth.jpg|A sunny day over Nchuleftingth]]

Autumn 5: [[:File:ON-place-Windmill (Davon's Watch).jpg|windmill with moons between spokes]], [[:File:SR-quest-Dawnguard (quest).jpg|vampires with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:SR-quest-Robber's Gorge.jpg|bandits with the aurora borealis and a moon]], [[:File:SR-place-Shrine of Azura 02.jpg|Azura's statue with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:OB-quest-Peryite.jpg|Peryite's statue at night]]

Halloween 4: [[:File:SR-npc-Ancano 08.jpg|some eerie magical swirls]], [[:File:ON-quest-A Ghost from the Past 04.jpg|Sithis]], [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|werewolf with both moons]], [[:File:DB-quest-Clean Sweep.jpg|ash spawn crawling out of the ground in a tomb]]

A lot of the spring/summer ones could be one or the other. February could use a winter or a springy one. Halloween is the only event that has decent representation as the games lend themselves well to that "scary" theme. A Christmas or Easter one might need to be sourced from our other images. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

[[Image:2018_Calender_Month_Test_1.jpg|240px|right]]
:Great! Another thought of image materials are the various high-quality screenshots that people take of Skyrim and ESO with various mods/graphical enhancements. These would require the permission of the screenshot owner. I'll see if I can track down some good ones and get permission.
: I've made a very quick/initial drawing of a calendar page as I envisioned it. It is still very rough but feedback is wanted sooner rather than later. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. I could advertise it on social media and add "Submit high quality screenshots to us to use in the calendar" to possibly get some nice ones sent to us. If we were to say, offer anyone we used an image from a copy of the calendar, we could probably get a few. Would you be okay with that? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:32, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I thought the license for screenshots gave the UESP the copyright, "the copyright for this particular composition is held by UESP", while giving Bethesda copyright on the components. Like any edit, images have always been treated as belonging to the wiki once uploaded, for us to use as and where we think suitable. Plus, even for Skyrim, a lot of image takers are no longer active. AKB's proposal seems good, at most you'd be giving out 12 images to non-UESP people, and all of them could be evaluated for use on the wiki itself even if they fail to get used in the calendar. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::::re: AKB's suggestion of getting screenshots from fans, I was thinking the same thing so go ahead and see what people can send us. Regarding the SS permission I was referring to images found outside of the UESP. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 

::::Another more refined sample: [[Image:2018_Calendar_Sample_3.png|240px|right]]
:::::* Tried to give it a more lore/medieval look with parchment background and imperfect grid lines.
:::::* Added site logo,
:::::* Originally I was thinking of having text box with the some text from the UESP's relevant article. Unsure if that is too much or better to go with just a title/page link or perhaps nothing at all.
:::: Keep the feedback, ideas, and more pictures coming! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

 
::::: Dave, I like the parchment background with UESP logo, but with the white squares. I'd mock one up if I was on my Mac (which has Photoshop), but all I have on this PC is Paint. My reasoning is that I love the UESP "branding", however a lot of people need to write on their calendars and this is easier to do with a white background. Also, the imperfect grid lines will make a lot of us twitch! Thus I feel that parchment background with UESP logo but a white calendar grid section is the best compromise. I would like a title to each picture - including which game it is from - but I don't feel we need a huge box explaining what it is, let alone a wiki URL which is difficult to type. If the wiki's search function is working properly, people will be able to look up "Brelyna Maryon" and "Frost Atronach" easily enough :) [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 22:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: A couple more image suggestions:
::::::Spring: [[:File:SR-creature-Birds.jpg|Skyrim birds]], [[:File:RG-place-Shrine of Morwha.jpg|Shrine of Morwha (mother goddess)]]
::::::Autumn: [[:File:OB-quest-Information at a Price.jpg|Skingrad]], [[:File:OB-quest-Azani Blackheart 3.jpg|Ayleid ruins]]
::::::Winter: [[:File:ON-place-The Black Forge.jpg|Coldharbour]]
::::::—[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::A more refined draft with some of the suggestions implemented. [[Image:UESP Fan Gift 2018 - Month Test 4.jpg|240px|right]]
:::::::Barring any suggestions that require large changes I'd like to finalize the overall design and move to choosing the month images. There is also the question of exactly what holidays to include:
::::::::* All ES lore holidays
::::::::* Only Major ES lore holidays
::::::::* Real world American/Canadian holidays
::::::::* Other real world holidays
::::::: -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 
::::::::I'm against the inclusion of real-world holidays, since we don't knowfrom which country the winners will be. I like the style, however -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 20:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I agree with Sarthes to exclude real world holidays. I still like a small lore explanation on the calender like in the second mock-up, but maybe that will distact too much from the image. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

: The first draft of the calendar is available at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft1.pdf'''. Please review it and put any comments here.
:* There were a lot of great images submitted and it was hard to pick and choose just 13 of them. If you feel an image doesn't fit well let me know and we can easily find another one.
:* Spelling, grammar and lore corrections are welcome (I've already spotted a couple myself).
:* Better or more accurate descriptions for some of the images would be good. I just guessed at some of the locations. In particular:
:::* January - Where is this?
:::* February - Where is this?
:::* April - Dragon names?
:::* July - Where is this?
:::* August - Where is this?
:::* September - Better caption?
:::* October - Where is this?
:Right now I'm aiming to print 250 of them and mail them out like the maps last year. Now is a good time for people to start thinking about how they wish to distribute them. The more I can get mailed out in December the better! I also don't want as many left over at the end as the maps last year...I still have about 100 maps that can be sent out if people want them. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::January and July look like Falkreath hold to me, and part of the same general area, but can't pin it down. The dragons in April look like Alduin at the Throat of the World. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that mods are involved there, as there are no dragons that white (the frost dragon is white but with large dark coloured parts), and it's breathing fire which a frost dragon shouldn't do. I don't think that means it should be excluded though, but I can see a red sword in the lower right sky. September, it looks indoors, so it could be a frustrated mage trying to light a hearth. October is Heartwood Mill in the Rift, from Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

:::January is somewhere near [[Skyrim:Evergreen Grove|Evergreen Grove]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-51184|y=-61784}}. February is [[Online:Razak's Wheel|Razak's Wheel]], I think. April is [[Skyrim:Alduin|Alduin]] and [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax|Paarthurnax]] fighting at the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]]. That red dagger is a result of a spell I created. If it looks out-of-place, it can be photoshopped away. July is [[Skyrim:Lake Ilinalta|Lake Ilinalta]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-1942|y=-53920}}. August is likely to be [[Online:Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)|Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)]]. I highly suspect October to be [[Skyrim:Half-Moon Mill|Half-Moon Mill]].
:::Are the Summoning Days really specific to the Daggerfall City-State? I always thought they were the same for all of Nirn. Also, the Gauntlet at Sun's Dusk 2nd is also Boethiah's Summoning Day. Hogithum at First Seed 21st is Azura's. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! For the summoning days I believe they were only actually used in the Daggerfall game but like you say are probably Tamriel wide. We can either omit them entirely or I can add them as another type/color holiday to make it easier to fit in with the other holidays you mentioned (I might try that and see how it looks). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::With SarthesArai's help, I found the exact location January was taken from, and I can confirm that his description and coordinates are correct. July is also Ilinalta, though the coordinates given are a bit off. I used {{Map Link|x=-18000|y=-53000|zoom=16|ns=Skyrim}}. I also double-checked in the game and October is definitely [[Skyrim:Heartwood Mill|Heartwood Mill]], as Silencer suggested. Are there any other Skyrim locations that need double-checked? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've made all the suggested changes with the only outstanding location is February...I don't think it is Razak's Wheel as I went all over and couldn't find the view. I'm pretty sure it is a view to an unreachable location in a delve somewhere but I can't quite remember it. If I can verify the location in the next day or so I'll upload an updated draft of the calendar. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:Correction: It's Klathzgar, near the Skyshard, looking outside the playable area. Thanks to [[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer]] for actually finding it. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

::That's it! I asked on the ESO sub-reddit and someone answered pretty fast as well. I'll get an updated draft up tomorrow. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:::The latest calendar draft is up at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft3.pdf'''. Unless there are other changes/corrections to make I'll be submitting it for printing in a few days. I'll post another topic regarding the distribution of calendars (it will be the same as the map poster last year). As a last minute update I added the birthsigns to each month (they can be easily removed if people think they don't fit well). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I like the birthsigns, but I think they might fit better with the month name, instead of on one of the calendar squares (and then they would be in the same spot for each month). --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 17:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::Another way would be to have the birthsign image as a background, though only as a faint outline, or even just the constellation. I don't think that would take too much away from the desired white background boxes for writing in. Faldar's Tooth doesn't really help place Heartwood Mill, "on the shore of Lake Honrich" or "near Riften" might be better. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Yah, I didn't like the location of the birthsigns either so I've tried moving them up to the title line which looks a lot better I think. See '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft4.pdf''' for the latest. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} That looks better than I thought it could be up there. It has my vote as ready to go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:I agree, this looks really nice! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

::Barring any last second fixes I'd like to send the calendar to the printers tomorrow and get started on the various distribution methods. Ideally I'd like to start shipping at least some of them before Christmas. I'll start a new AN topic tomorrow regarding that. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Final calendar release is at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf''' (or higher resolution at http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final.pdf if anyone would like to print it themselves). Note that I had to add 2 new images/pages at the end as the printer was only able to print 24 or 28 page sizes. Hopefully there are no obvious errors for those as the print job has already been started. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I was just wondering: where were those final two images taken? Or, if you don't know, do you have the links for them on the wiki? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:::::The first one appears to have been taken from [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Overlook|Dragon Bridge Overlook]] - checked in-game and you can get a very similar view from there - or perhaps somewhere nearby like [[Skyrim:Cliffside Retreat|Cliffside Retreat]]. The second is in [[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern|Moss Mother Cavern]]. (I play this game way too much.) ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::I was thinking the second one looked like Moss Mother Cavern, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't find that exact image on the wiki, so I thought maybe I was wrong. Thanks, Alarra! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Got mine in the mail yesterday and it looks fantastic in person! Just wanted to leave a quick thanks, Dave! Good work on the calendars this year! :) -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 05:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

== Paarthurnax ==

The Blades demand for the removal of [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax (dragon)]] has seen the page blanked 6 times since last December, with only one constructive edit in that time. I think it needs some additional protection for a while. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Agreed. Delphine is such a tryhard. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::I've semi-protected it for a year, and we'll see how it fares after that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::Good god I can't believe people are still butthurt over this. I remember arguing with people on the official lore board about it back when Skyrim came out. Can you at least block anonymous edits to the page? --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 22:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::::That was just a joke, there's no way to guess what reason the page was blanked for as none was given. Semi-protection, which the page now has, does exactly that, as well as blocking brand new accounts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::Some people were seriously apoplectic about the Blades/Paarthurnax thing, certainly enough to vandalize a wiki. I just figured they'd found something else to be mad about by now. --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 23:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Inappropriate Username ==

Wanted to bring to the attention of Admins an inappropriate username creation. [[Special:Log/newusers]] link for easier viewing. User name begins with "Tom". [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 05:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

:Done, thanks. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, didnt wan't to say their name. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]])

== Legends Card Data and Popup ==

People asked for this a while ago and I'm finally getting to working on it. This is just the first step of many so if you have suggestions/ideas on the existing implementation or where it goes from here don't hesitate to say something.

:* List of cards can be seen at [[Special:LegendsCardData]]. Hover over the card name for the popup and click the name for card details.
:* Linking to a specific card can be done using the custom <code><nowiki><legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard></nowiki></code> tag which looks like: <legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard>.
:* Card data has been initially populated with the saved MetaTemplate data on each card page and is not yet complete.
:* Do we need a "missing card" image or is it fine to just display nothing?
:* Are the card popup images a good size? I've resized them from the wiki images to load faster.
:* An add/edit card data feature is planned in order to let editors manage updating existing card data and adding new ones.
:* Similarly, a card search feature is planned.
:* A deck builder is possible but is a much larger piece of work to be considered in the farther future as time permits.

If you notice anything broken or not working as you think it should let me know as well...I haven't done much cross browser/platform testing yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:59, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:Oooh, this looks really nice Daveh! The size of the pop-up images are quite good, they aren't much different in-game. I am not sure if a "missing card" image is necessary. I think that the benefits are that it will make us sure the pop-up is not broken and it might give us some incentive to find the missing images faster. All in all, it looks great! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:: A bunch more changes today:
:::* All card data should be up to date so far as I know it.
:::* Added the edit and create forms. Currently wiki admins have access to this but I can give specific editors access if there's any active Legends users. There's the "Create Card" in the upper right of the main card table and an "Edit Card" in the upper right of each card details page.
:::* Added a simple <legendscard card='unknown'>Unknown Card</legendscard>.
:: A reminder that I haven't played very much Legends myself so if there are obvious omissions in anything let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I would like to get access to the Create/Edit option at the [[Special:LegendsCardData]] page. I am one of the most active Legends contributors and I am also the one adding the new cards from the upcoming expansion. So it would be easiest if I can add the card to both places at once. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

::::You should now have the ability to edit and create cards. If this doesn't work for you please let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::It seems like the tag isn't properly processing template parameters. <code><nowiki>{{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code>, for example, produces: {{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>.

:::::Ilaro also pointed out that the link should go to the card's wiki page rather than Special:LegendsCardData. I'm not sure if we'd have a need to link to the card data for any reason, so the link can probably just be changed directly, but you could perhaps have it as an option in case there is some such need in the future, if it's not too difficult. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::Both of these should now be fixed. Use the <code>usedatalink="1"</code> parameter if you would like to link to the card data page, otherwise it links to the card article. Note that if there are other custom uesp tags that need template parameter parsing let me know (like <nowiki><esoitemlink></nowiki>). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I found another problem: cards like {{Legends PU|Archer's Gambit}} or {{Legends PU|Crusader's Assault}} are showing the right pop-up, but they are linked to the [[Legends:Archer|Archer]]/[[Legends:Crusader|Crusader]] page instead of their card page. This also causes {{Legends PU|Alik'r Survivalist}} to link to the not existing "Alik" page instead of [[Legends:Alik'r Survivalist]].
:::::::Another problem are the Werewolf cards. Both {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Nord)}} and {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Werewolf)}} have a unknown card pop-up. These are, however, two separate 'entities' and should have their respective card image pop-up. On the other hand, {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress}} shows the werewolf card, which should not be the case, because it is the link to the disambiguation page. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed both issues. For Aela it was due to me incorrectly importing just the one base card so I renamed that one and created the other one. Both should now have correct popups. The disambiguation popup is fixed however your local browser cache will likely still display the issue until you clear the cache or the image expires. Note that to fix both issues you just have to re-save any page that uses those cards. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The fixes seem to work! However, I should have been more clear about the werewolves. {{Card|Aela's Huntmate}}, {{Card|Circle Initiate}}, {{Card|Companion Harbinger}}, {{Card|Grim Shield-Brother}} and {{Card|Whiterun Protector (Werewolf)|Whiterun Protector}} suffer from the same problem as Aela. (that should be all of them) --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:57, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
:These should now be all fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
::Just when you thought you were done.... Cards with disambiguations in the name face a special challenge, in that the disambiguation needs to be both present and absent. Look, for example, at <legendscard card="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>. As it stands now, it links to [[Legends:Skeleton]] even though it gets its data from [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I'm not sure how that magic works, but it should really link to [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I can see three potential fixes for this:
::#Change the magic renaming to link to the same page it's getting the data from.
::#Change all the card names to use the exact same as the page names. If you go that route, though, you'd need to give us the ability to edit the name used in <code>card="''name''"</code>, as well as the wiki link itself, in [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?edit=Skeleton the edit page] so we can update page names if they move around and fix any that don't currently follow this pattern.
::#Provide an actual <code>link</code> parameter. This is potentially more flexible, but personally, I think this would end up over-complicating a lot of things, both on your end and on the wiki end, so one of the first two is probably the better choice.
::– [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

:::Today I added all new obtainable cards to the Card Database. However, I ran into two problems. Cards with an apostrophe in the name (for example: [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Mecinar%27s+Will]] ) do not link properly to the right image file. Secondly, there are two new creature types in the expansion, but I could only choose types from a dropdown list and not add a new one. You are probably busy, but I like to point out that the problem from RH (one post above this) is also still present. See whenever you have time/feel like to fix it. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added basic card filters to the card table display. Let me know if you need/want more filters and what specifically. Added the 2 new creature types...if any list is missing something just let me know. Explicitly listing what items makes it much easier for me since I don't play Legends much and am not to familiar with it. Fixed the issue with single quotes in item names...let me know if you run into similar issues (just was due to various text escaping errors). Haven't fixed RobinHood's issue but will look at it and figure out the best course of action shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 22:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Regarding the card links for disambiguation pages I've decided to go with a 4th option at least for now. Part of the issue is that the card link code doesn't access the legends card database and I'd prefer to keep it that way. That means the first option won't work. The second option would work but it depends whether editors want to go that route (I can add name changing to the card edit code as needed). The third option would work fine but it really just pushes the problem onto the editor or makes the card link template that much more complicated.

So option I've implemented for now is to hardcode a list of all cards that have disambiguation pages and check in that list whenever a card link is parsed. So far I just have 4 cards in that list:
:* Bandit Ambush => card
:* Chaurus => creature
:* Skeleton => card
:* Swims-at-Night => card
If there are more cards needed in this list, either now or in future sets, just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:Great! Some small notes: Chaurus (creature) has been changed some time ago to Chaurus (card) for consistency and the original is now a redirect. I also have some issue with <code><nowiki>{{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code> that it is still linking to the disambig page (see {{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>), while <code><nowiki><legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard></nowiki></code> is not (see <legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>). At last, is there any way to remove cards from LegendsCardData? Because this one is now split up into two cards [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Aela%27s+Huntmate]] (the Nord and the Werewolf version). Thanks in advance for the help! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::Fixed the Chaurus card type for the disambiguation page, the MetaTemplate issue with disambiguation links and I've manually deleted the linked card. For now cards can only be deleted or renamed manually...no reason other than to limit the amount of data loss that could happen (can't just revert edits like with wiki pages). For now just let me know of any deletes/renames required and these features can be added in time if desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Image Undeletion ==

The image File:SkyrimEchmer.jpg was deleted on the 4th November, however, the [[General:Uutak Mythos|Uutak Mythos]] is and has been linking it since 2nd September. The log doesn't say why it was deleted, so can someone look, and if possible, restore the image if it isn't too late, or if the reason it was deleted would see it deleted again (eg duplication), remove the links here and on that page. My apologies if it was me who marked it for deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:You listed it for speedy deletion with the reason "duplicate file, other one is in the naming style of similar images" and AKB deleted it. I thought there was a way to view deleted images, but if there is, I can't find it, so I've restored the image for the time being. If you can find what it's a duplicate of, re-link it to the correct place and we can re-delete this one. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks. The duplicate image was autolinked from the file page, and has now been replaced on the Uutak Mythos page. I've removed the link above so it's clear to redelete. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Done. And thanks for looking into that. I was just on my way out to dinner, so I didn't have a lot of time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

== UESP Fan Gift (2018 Calendar) ==

The [http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf calendar] has been finished and sent off for printing so we can get started on figuring out who the lucky people are that get one. I've ordered 250 calendars so if we distribute them roughly the same as the map last year I shouldn't have any left over at the end. Like last year distribution will be grouped into a few categories:

:* Anyone who submitted an image used in the calendar (12 people).
:* All admins/mods/guild leaders of UESP (if you aren't sure if this includes you just [mailto:dave@uesp.net ask me]).
:* Random draw for everyone is open at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] and a number of winners will be drawn on Dec 15th (so I can start mailing them before Christmas).
:* Any wiki editor in the 2017 year can submit their name at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] for a different random draw on Dec 15th for just wiki editors.
:* Any other contest that might be run by our forums, social media sites, or ESO guilds. If you running a content let me know and we can figure out how many calendars we can reserve for you.
:* Special people in the Elder Scrolls universe (Bethesda, Zenimax Online, fan sites, etc...). [mailto:dave@uesp.net Let me know] if you have a suggestion here!

Calendar winners can use the [https://goo.gl/forms/xZg2kcQa0pgh6nVb2 Mailing Address Collection Form (2018 Calendar)] to submit their address so I can mail the calendar to them.

I also still have about 100 maps from last year I can include for people as desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
::If you can swing it, I would love to get another copy of the map - mine got damaged when I moved between states. --[[User:SCarverOrne|SCarverOrne]] ([[User talk:SCarverOrne|talk]]) 03:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

:At least the Morning Star, Sun's Dawn, First Seed, and Rain's Hand images were all submitted by me, but I do not need 4 calendars... xD -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
::As an idea for the last point, maybe the creators of the most popular mods/addons? Like Arthmoor or the creator of FTC? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I received the calendars last Friday and they look great! I'm mailing out the first batch of 22 calendars today/tomorrow to everyone who has filled out the mailing address form so far. Hopefully at least some of you will get them by Christmas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Being just next door in Ottawa, I got mine today and it looks fantastic! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've performed the random draw just now with the 757 unique e-mails submitted from the form. 36 calendars went to wiki users and 25 went to random users. Everyone has been notified by e-mail to submit their mailing address on the collection form. After all calendars have been claimed from contests sometime in January I'll do another random draw to get rid of any left over calendars. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

:Will send out another 70 or so calendars this afternoon and that will likely be the last batch shipped out before the New Year. An update on what charities we've supported this year (it's hard to choose as there's so many good organizations to give to). I've donated $750 to [https://www.charitywater.org Charity Water] and through [http://childsplaycharity.org/ Child's Play] I've purchased $300 worth of toys for The Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. Note that if anyone is interested in running charitable events through Child's Play or a similar organization anytime just let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

== Skyrim Creation Club Purchases ==
Since Creation Club mods are "official" content (or close enough) the UESP's offer to purchase games for admins and active editors applies to them was well. At a minimum we should make sure that at least one admin/editor has a copy of each CC mod to make sure we can add/test content for the wiki. So far only Legoless has asked and received money for CC purchases and I don't know which mods he has purchased.

If you are an admin or ''active'' editor and would like to be reiumbursed for CC purchases just [mailto:dave@uesp.net let me know]. Usually I just send money via Paypal unless there is a way to gift CC credits somehow. People how have CC mods should also post here so we know which content we have and what we might not. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:I'd be interested. I've dabbled with them but only taken the ones that were free on offer. If I decide to take up your offer I'll email you, as anyone should if they wish to keep anonymous. Also, should I do it, I will purchase all currently available ones that I haven't got. The numbers certainly don't appear to be high as there has been little activity on documenting them, so it would be good to know what creations everyone purchases. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I'm also interested. I currently have Survival Mode, Arcane Accessories, Dwarven Armored Mudcrab, and Stendarr's Hammer (which I purchased with initial credits). Creation Club is easy content to document, so I'll certainly help out with those pages. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::: I have access to all CC mods to date and can verify as needed. Lots of information to add too, but it seems Fullerton may beat me to it! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I now own all current CC content. I'm not playing Skyrim at the moment but I can now pop in and check/verify stuff if anyone needs. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ebony blade victims ==

I recently found out that the randomly encountered Stray dogs are valid targets for the Ebony blade which also uniquely respawn. I added the information to the [[Skyrim:Ebony_Blade_Victims|Ebony blade victims]] page but my edit was [[Skyrim_talk:Ebony_Blade_Victims#Respawning_blade_targets|revoked in good faith by another editor]] for not meeting the criteria. As far as I can tell there was no mention of such a unlimited (they respawn) target for the quest that also means no other named NPCs need to be disabled. What is the policy for adding the information to that page and how, if possible, can I rephrase or change the information so that it would meet the criteria on that page? With best regards, --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 20:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:The best place to ask this is on the talk page of the article. Complaining to the admins because your edits were reverted and then subsequently explained is not how you go about understanding an article and its purpose. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::SkyHiRider, you might be better-advised to take it to the article's [[Skyrim talk:Ebony Blade Victims|talk page]], which more people will be watching and so will be a better place to expect a reply. The reason that the administrator noticeboard isn't the right place for this is because the AN's purpose is for Administrator-only actions, but the mistake was made due to being unaware so it's understandable and completely fine as long as the mistake isn't repeated. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 10:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

::: Understood, will keep it to the article talk page. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 23:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Mobile ads issue ==

A couple times the past week, I've hit some kind of ad that redirects me to a giveaway/scam site. Example: [https://imgur.com/kvsLmWm]. Both the times it happened, I was on Safari for iOS, refreshing the Recent Changes page. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 15:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

: A user mentions having a similar problem on [http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40436 this forum post] and manages to provide a link to the offending webpage. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== De-Rank Request: Fullerton ==

In light of Fullerton's recent actions on both our Discord server and another one, the Discord staff are suggesting a removal of his Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki. There is precedent on both the wiki and forum for dealing with a user's actions from a different part of the UESP or from offsite. As site staff in the form of patroller and blocker, he is representing the wiki elsewhere, and his recent behavior shows a lack of the type of responsibility needed to have these roles here.
* He was previously staff on Discord due to us initially adding everyone who has roles elsewhere as UESP staff. He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users.
* He has behaved in a somewhat inappropriate matter off and on, which has been addressed in a less-formal manner of staff talking to him or posting a reminder, such as racist comments, language such as the use of "retarded"/"mong", and other behavior which we do not consider okay there even as a joke. Earlier this week, on Tuesday, he was kicked from the server for spamming a bot command that was previously disabled (accidentally reenabled when the bot creator was working on it), being told to stop, and then moving the spam to our main channel (#general) instead, right around the time a prominent member of the ESO community joined.
* Yesterday, on another server (one with many banned members who have something of an anti-UESP sentiment), he [https://imgur.com/tK0668E doxxed Legoless (name hidden)] by changing his username there to his actual real name, and did it in a racist manner, as Legoless is Irish. At this point, we gave him a role on our server that would remove access to all channels to him except the one called "#dungeon", which is used as a holding area while staff discuss what action to take. He claimed to not know it was Legoless's real name, but we found evidence to the contrary; two instances of him using Lego's first or last name on October 22 and November 13.
* This morning, he left our server and rejoined to remove that role (essentially evading a soft ban), [https://imgur.com/feFK62z swearing at the moderation], and posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created).
Fullerton's editing on the wiki has been good, but we feel that with behavior like this it is not appropriate that he hold any type of staff role on the UESP. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

:Why are the Discord staff suggesting a removal of my patroller and blocker roles on-wiki? I do recall that recently there was an attempt to demarcate between Discord and on-wiki staves, and so it puzzles me to see that they're being treated as a single entity.
:If you will recall, these were demarcated because it placed people with insufficient experience in online chatrooms as moderators to have wikistaff become Discord staff, and I have been acting under the impression that one does not necessarily equal the other. I fully agree with my previous removal from Discord staff because quite frankly, my position as wiki staff should not in any way make me a staff member on the UESP Discord server. These distinctions are because Discord and the wiki are extremely different platforms. As a result, I did not feel that I had to act in my role as a wiki patroller when idly chatting in the UESP discord server and various other Discord servers, as the case may be. Now, the reason I failed to represent a wiki patroller in a Discord staff capacity is 'because' of this discrepancy, as I was thrust into a position of which I held no understanding. However, the patroller role on-wiki is something I signed onto fully aware of, and so there is far less possibility that I will misunderstand and forgo the duties which the role has assigned to me on here. As I said, they are different platforms and I signed on to be a Wiki patroller and fulfill the task, while I just so happened to be thrust into a position on the Discord pertaining to representing the wiki.
:Especially prominent in the demarcation between UESP and the Discord Server belonging to it is the Discord Server's recent promotion of "Tea Party Moderators", who were chosen simply for being fit for the task.
:In the past (October 31st), I attempted to have the patroller role removed from my Discord account by leaving the server. However, it was simply re-added to my account because I expressed an ambivalence towards the role. I did not feel I was bound to remain in the role, and came only to see it as a different-colored nametag on the Discord server - hence I requested the colors when I rejoined the server from my (acknowledged to be unjust) kick.
:Additionally, there's no reason for Discord conflicts to suddenly occur on-wiki-this directly defies the reason given for the deletion [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans]], which was that there is no need for the Discord to be that much on the wiki.
:I'd like to conclude by saying that this is an extension of the inconsistency in moderation styles on the UESP discord that has now spilled over onto the wiki, and that I doubt that allowing the confusion to continue will clear up any of the discrepancies on the UESP Discord server.
:—[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 04:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
::(This response is just from me and not the Discord staff as a whole.) Again, part of the reason we are suggesting it here is that as patroller and blocker you are still site staff - not moderating ''that'' part of it doesn't change the roles you do have - and your actions therefore still represent the UESP. The demarcation of the site has nothing to do with it (in fact we've been treating the UESP ''less'' as separate communities and more of a single community ever since the Discord was founded, even if not everyone manages every aspect of it.)
::(As an aside, the reason the Discord Bans page on the wiki was deleted was because we felt that the list had become incentive for people to try to behave badly in order to get banned and get their name on it, not because we felt the Discord and wiki should be kept separate. The reason you had the Blocker/Patroller roles on the Discord was to help you fulfill your duties on the wiki: to have access to the Patrolling channel to discuss edits a patroller isn't certain about, and for people to be able to notify you to block a vandal when needed (which is, in a way, still acting as site staff). You [https://imgur.com/ZxRTafv were aware] that that was the purpose of the role, and in fact after you left in October and it missed being re-added, you yourself eventually [https://imgur.com/E3Cgmnn pointed out] that you were missing it so that it could be added and you could put it to that use.)
::But anyway, back to the topic at hand and the main part of my response: The other part of why we're suggesting it is because in the past we have taken action on parts of the UESP for behavior on a different part (and even offsite) if the behavior was severe enough, which I personally would vote is the case here: sharing another user's personal information without their consent is very serious, even without the rest of it. And regardless whether viewing you as a staff member or not, the examples I listed in the first post show poor judgement at best and some of them malicious behavior at worst (e.g. re-joining the server to shake off the dungeon role and swearing at the mods and posting the dungeon content), which is enough to raise concern about whether you are responsible enough for these roles. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 08:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Instead of trying to dance around this, I'm just gonna say this. What you did could have put Legoless's personal safety at risk. Which raises the question, do you understand what doxing is, and why it is dangerous? Please answer if you understand what you did. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 09:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::From my persepctive, doxxing a member of staff is not the way anyone should behave, let alone another member of staff. Furthermore, your actions on Discord of evading the soft ban by leaving and rejoining the server to leave the #dungeon channel, and then posting the content of the dungeon in a public channel, shows that you do not respect our moderation processes. Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::There are so many side issues that are brought up by this discussion, it's hard to know where to start. On the one hand, I'm concerned about the cross-over of platforms. There's a certain level of behaviour that I would expect from staff, regardless of which UESP platform they're on, and to an extent, even on other sites. But on the other hand, there are also times when people feel the need to let loose. I've certainly said and done things on channels/servers/sites where I wasn't staff that I wouldn't do here, where I am.

:::::Doxxing someone (anyone! staff or not) is a serious charge, and one that might well warrant cross-platform discipline. That said, it really depends on how much of an issue it actually is for Legoless. I'd like to hear from him on that one. I'd also suggest that people consider the fact that some of us are more open about our real names, while others aren't, and it's very easy to forget who's who. A great many people know my real name, for instance, and it's not too terribly difficult to find out if you don't yet. A few clicks should bring you right to it. :) So, was Fullerton acting maliciously and deliberately sharing Legoless' real name? If so, then this is an easy decision, and I'd say yes, he should have rights removed here, since that type of behaviour is unacceptable for any staff member in any and every part of UESP. That becomes a bit more grey, however, if he was acting more out of negligence and just not thinking of the fact that only certain people know Legoless' real name, or even out of ignorance, not realizing that most people don't know it. As a gay man, I completely understand the latter. I've accidentally been outed to people in the past, and I have once accidentally outed someone else in complete ignorance, thinking that everyone knew. It sucks, but sometimes these things happen.

:::::As for the racism issue, that one's a bit more confusing. After all, Legoless' real name includes what is sometimes considered a racist (or at least ethnist) component to it, but is also just a normal name too, so unless there was something more there, I'm not sure that's necessarily racist on its own. Context, however, could make a big difference here, though I appreciate that it may be difficult to share that without inherently outing Legoless all over again!

:::::I think this brings up some larger issues, though, in that there has been a recent tendency to take things cross-platform, and I'm not sure it's always warranted. It strikes me that, to some extent, there have been vendettas going on from certain staff members against other users and an excessive adherence to rules. The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right. That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning. As popular as our Discord channel is, I think to an extent it has also become dysfunctional, and I have a tremendous concern that this cross-platform disciplinary action just continues that trend. TBH, when baratron recently suggested on my talk page that I return to the Discord channel, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!", though I worded it a bit more diplomatically there. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I just did some research, and in a quick Google, I was able to find pages that linked Legoless to his real name. In my own inbox, I was able to find '''Legoless himself''' using the variant of his name that is presented as being racist. So, I think the concerns on that front are a lot less than they might seem.

::::::That said, I think evading a soft ban was inappropriate behaviour, but I can also see where locking someone away in a dungeon (quite literally in this case) gives them no chance to defend themselves publicly, and leaves them unaware of any public or admin-only discussion concerning them, where they should have the opportunity to raise a defence. Yes, they can do so afterwards, but from my experience, by that point, opinions have already largely been formed by the administrators who took an interest. I don't think a dungeon room is at all an appropriate way to handle discipline. All the worse that it's actually called that without seeing the stigma it creates. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @RobinHood: You may have missed a nuance of what Fullerton did. Let's say Legoless's name is Patrick Murphy (it isn't). Fullerton didn't just change Legoless's public name on the other server to "Paddy Murphy" (where "Paddy" is both a common Irish first name and also a derogatory term used for Irish people) - he changed it to "Paddy O'Murphy" - adding an extra O' as if Legoless's surname ''isn't Irish enough''.

::::::: I am not sure what you mean by "''The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right.''" I'm only aware of TJ's Discord server, which has plenty of current members. It's a place for people to "shitpost" (am I allowed to say that on the wiki?), which is posting lots of meme images and talking all in emojis - the sort of behaviour that we frown upon on the main UESP Discord server. This isn't necessarily '''bad''' behaviour, it just does not convey the professional image that we want on the UESP Discord, in case a Bethesda or Zenimax employee shows up. (Which they do - we have two currently that we know of.)

::::::: We're also uncertain about "''That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning''". We're not sure of any current or ex-Patrollers who use TJ's server other than Fullerton and Legoless. Again, there is nothing sinister in them going to that site. Different Discord servers have different rules, and it doesn't mean that wiki staff are involved in some sort of plot against UESP because they happen to hang out there. Some people are on literally 50+ Discord servers at a time - I don't know how they keep up, I'm on 4 of which 2 are busy and multi-channeled, and the other 2 get on average of one message a day. But a lot of younger people apparently have the time and energy for it, *shrug*.

::::::: I take your point about the #dungeon channel, but it '''is intended''' for people to defend themselves. It's where they get to explain to the staff why they did whatever they did, and apologise if necessary. No one other than staff sees who is in there - other members do not even see the channel, and as far as they know, the user is simply offline. I don't agree that opinions have ''necessarily'' already been formed by the administrators who took an interest - sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes, the whole purpose of putting a person into that channel is to find out the details of an incident, rather than to punish people. The channel history is always wiped after use. Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business. I agree that #dungeon is a bad name.

::::::: I understand that Fullerton was frustrated because he was "left in the dungeon for 6 hours", but this was an unfortunate side-effect of timezones. I went to bed at 6 am on Saturday morning due to staying up, dealing with this situation. For many people in the US, it was already 1 am and not everyone has as chaotic a sleep schedule as I do. I'm not sure how anything could have been dealt with any quicker. Also, Fullerton himself told us that he would be away from his computer for the day, which also gave an impression that it was not urgent enough for '''everyone''' to have to stay up way past their bedtimes. I do regret that this was apparently not the case. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I did catch the O'. To me, that was not tremendously relevant, but maybe that's an Aspie thing. I just don't attach the same level of importance to these sorts of things as some do. Since Legoless himself has said it was ancillary to the doxxing itself, I see it as a moot point in any event.

:::::::: My understanding of the purpose of TJ's channel may have been off, as I've never been there and have only heard bits and pieces about it. As far as the other server, I won't say too much for privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that I'm not the only person who found our Discord server sufficiently problematic as to either leave it or at least not visit often. A few of us happen to have found each other in what is otherwise an unrelated server, and on rare occasions, we have discussed what we see as some of the problems. "Offshoot" was not the best term, but I couldn't find another one readily that encompassed both TJ's server (which I understand has at least a few users who were banned from UESP's Discord) as well as the other one.

:::::::: As for the dungeon, as you've acknowledged, the name itself is problematic and adds bias to any discussion, as it automatically implies guilt. I think a better method would be to take such discussions to an ad-hoc private channels and ask the user to refrain from using the channels (which leaves you a certain leeway to make it an even softer ban, allowing use of certain channels if appropriate), or just take it to a group PM and kick/ban them from the Discord server, if necessary. Perhaps these are a bit more of a nuisance, but they're not as inherently biased. At the very least, a better name could be found. I get that it was meant as humorous, but I think it probably doesn't seem quite as funny to someone who finds themselves there.

:::::::: I wasn't really aware of the timing issue of Fullerton being left in the room for 6 hours, but as you say, even if it was frustrating, that's completely understandable, given that our users are from around the world. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: This conversation's moving a bit quickly for me to get a response in, and most of my points have been covered by various users, but I'll just add that Fullerton actually [https://imgur.com/KECYIgR admitted] that his intention with that particular name change was to be racist.
::::::::: I agree that perhaps a better name can be found; it was indeed chosen to be humorous, but I understand your point about the implications the name might have. It certainly isn't our intent to imply that we've already formed opinions: as bara said, it's a place for the mods and the user to come to an understanding; we've given users another chance or found alternate solutions based on our discussions with them there, and it's not always used in cases of disciplinary action either. Even yesterday it was used voluntarily as a private place for a user who wanted to talk to the moderators. While I can understand the frustration of remaining there for hours, the reason we created it is to have time to let all moderators give input, discuss things thoroughly, and not make snap judgements. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::: That screen-cap certainly provides a context I didn't have before. Thank you. As far as forming opinions in advance, that's not just limited to Discord, I've seen it happen in various staff discussions, and I'm as guilty of doing it as the next person. There are often two (or more) discussions on any given issue of misbehaviour, one that includes the affected user and one that doesn't. I think too often, the one that doesn't involve the user tends to jump ahead of the one that does, often without all the facts, and it leads to inappropriate conclusions. That's my main concern here. Usually by the time it's decided that someone belongs in the dungeon (or whatever you end up calling it), there's already been a discussion behind the scenes as to whether the user should be pulled in there. As I recall, putting them in there also removes them from all other channels, does it not? Assuming I'm right, that also adds a presumption of guilt, providing a punishment before a discussion with the user has even happened. I'd rather see the user involved first, before any decisions are made (not counting egregious behaviour, of course, where immediate actions are entirely appropriate). This is probably getting off-topic, however, as it's far more generalized of a concern than this specific instance. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Technically yes, there is a presumption of guilt when putting someone in the dungeon. That's why it exists and why it is named what it is – it is a punishment, a soft ban from the server, while the staff discuss privately, and also discuss with the person involved, whether their actions require a full ban. The alternative is that they get banned from the server straight away, and then the only way to contact them is via private messages, and then it is much more difficult to involve all the staff. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}This isn't about Discord staff versus website staff - this is about a person, who has been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.

UESP is not a random TES discord or Facebook group, it is the single oldest website dedicated to the series, and one of the most respected institutions in the fandom. You, as a representative of said website, are obligated to behave in a manner becoming of its mission and position in the community. Doxxing, using racist language, and making ableist remarks (not to mention defying a soft ban, talking publicly about private conversations, and repeatedly refusing to change aforementioned behaviours) is NOT OK for any regular member of a community, and it is especially not ok for someone that is supposed to represent the very best and most trustworthy of a community (i.e. the staff).

When you use ableist or racist language, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making UESP look bad. You're making people uncomfortable and less willing to contribute to the website and community, potentially driving away valuable contributors. You're eroding peoples' trust in the website and its staff. You're encouraging bad behavior from members and making moderation more difficult, because if staff can act like assholes, why can't everyone?

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. Your recent behaviour has been the opposite of that. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 20:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I'm certainly not okay with my name being made public knowledge without my consent, which is the reason I brought this to the attention of staff to begin with. The fact that it was a racist version of my name is ancillary to the point as far as I'm concerned, and the specifics of that do not need to be addressed publicly.

: This is not a discussion of the demarcation between Discord and the wiki, and I don't find Fullerton's response above to be at all sufficient or even relevant. This discussion is about his continued rights on the wiki and therefore needs to be had on-wiki. Patroller and Blocker are trusted roles, and Fullerton broke that trust. That isn't the kind of behaviour I would expect from staff, regardless of whether it was off-site or not. In my view, the fact that it was done in a third party chatroom frequented by users who are outright hostile towards myself and UESP staff actually makes it worse. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I apologize if I took the discussion a bit off-topic, but I do see the discontent among some users, myself among them, with the way the Discord channel is run as being at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. How it's run has a direct impact on how people behave, and more importantly, how they misbehave. That probably should be a separate discussion, however, if it needs to be had at all. At this point, I'm not sure I see much of a point. I agree with the above two posters that, wherever they are, staff on the wiki should try to behave appropriately when discussing the wiki. It's a fine line to draw for me, though, because people also need a place to vent.

:: What ''is'' important to me here is Legoless' comments. If he's not okay with his online name being linked to his real name publicly, then I'm not okay with it either. Even if the information is out there on the web, publicly presenting it is taking that a step further. Doing so in a room that's hostile towards him does indeed make it worse. Even if someone's venting, there's a time and a place for it, and a way to do it. That was not it.

:: So, while I think there are deeper issues, looking at this request in isolation, I'm not opposed to it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::: I'm just really sad by the whole situation. @Fullerton, I feel as though 90% of the interactions I've had with you over the past year have been positive. Maybe 9% have been frivolous, and 1% annoying or rude enough that I've had to pull you up on the behaviour. I'm not familiar with New Zealand culture and it's possible that it's much more casually racist than the British culture I'm familiar with. Then again, it could also be that you're young and suffering from a lot of peer pressure from friends who dare you to say something dodgy.

::: But look - it's NOT okay to post someone's real name online without their consent. I know you go by your actual legal name online, and that's your choice to do so - but it's also other people's choices to '''not''' do so. Nor is it okay to be casually racist towards other people who aren't your close friends. (I'd argue that it isn't okay to be casually racist at all, but I guess there is some banter between friends which sounds awful to other people listening yet is meant in a friendly way.)

::: I actually '''don't''' believe you should lose your Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki due to your behaviour on Discord, because your work on the wiki has been good. Apparently you have a few annoying editing quirks, but I bet everyone does until they've been here for many years. But you must understand - if you can't be trusted not to reveal someone's personal information on Discord, how do we know we can trust you not to deface wiki pages because you're angry? When you have the Patroller and Blocker roles, you have '''a lot''' more power to damage the wiki. UESP has been going for 22 years. As Lady N said, Bethesda use it to look up Lore they have forgotten, Zenimax use it to get ideas for Arena and Redguard places to revisit in ESO, and we know for a fact that Dire Wolf use it for reference from little oddities which have popped up in Legends. ''The wiki is more important than one person.''

::: I'm sorry that it's come to this. You're intelligent and energetic, and there's no reason on Earth for you to have randomly attacked a wiki admin "for the lols". You could be using that intelligence and energy for good. I hope that you will continue to work on the wiki, so that over time people will feel able to trust you again. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

===Edit Break 1===
I'm gonna ask any conversation about the running of the Discord server, or whether or not there is a precedent for cross-site or even off-site behavior is relevant to your standing on the wiki be shelved. The first is off topic, and the first one has a clear precedent from past incidents. If you would like to make suggestions for the running of the Discord, or the formalization or removal of the existing precedent relating to cross-site and off-site activity, please start a separate topic either here or on CP.

As far as for the actual issue, I would like for Fullerton to respond to the topic. Particularly, I would like for him to confirm that he understands what doxing is, and why it spawned this conversation. Additionally, I'd like for him to be able to provide a response in relation to this issue, before any decision is made relating to it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:As was stated, his real name has come up once or thrice and that led me to believe that he was alright with it being used. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by doxxing. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::Doxxing's a relatively new term, probably a few years old. It means deliberately/maliciously releasing someone's personal information (e.g., name, address, or phone number) when it wasn't generally known. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Robinhood is correct. With that said, if that is true why didn't you just say that before, instead of claiming ignorance to what his name was? Additionally, do you want to comment about the rest of your actions? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't mention it because I assume it wouldn't help my case, that "ignorance is no excuse" would be invoked. In regards to my actions on the Discord server, attempting to evade the dungeon was untenable. However, I would like to say that I am '''not''' an ableist, and I object to being called one. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 08:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::But now it seems/looks like you have been lying to us. How can we still trust your word then? --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::As someone that is in the aforementioned Discord server (which isn't as anti-UESP as portrayed and currently has only <s>one</s> two users who were banned from the UESP Discord server) and saw the immediate aftermath of Fullerton's actions, I will vouch for Fullerton in saying that he seemed genuinely surprised that the nickname he had set for Legoless was his actual name, so, while what could be considered as doxxing occurred, I do believe that it was completely unintentional on Fullerton's part, it might have been a lapse of memory and the specific name being subconsciously picked without conscious awareness that it was actually related to Legoless, but in any case, the intention was pretty clearly not malicious from everything I saw.

::::::Additionally, reading this discussion, it feels like Fullerton has been driven into a corner by you people, being forced to admit to things that don't necessarily correlate to the actual course of events, so either he is a masterful actor and played us all at TJ's server (which I highly doubt), or he's just bending over due to the pressure to try to find the easiest way out (this last paragraph being mostly directed at Ilaro's previous comment). [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 15:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I do not agree at all. If anything, he did put himself into the corner, and depending on what he told you, playing the victim. We gave him more than enough time to explain himself and apologizing without any pressure, but he felt the need to insult the staff and evading the soft ban instead (see the first two links Alarra posted). I am mostly disappointed that he did not even apologize for the doxing (or the racism, which he clearly admitted was the intention). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 17:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: With all due respect, Brynjar, Fullerton lied to you and your friends in the other server. Legoless's real-life surname is uncommon - not only have I literally never heard it before, but it also doesn't appear in the Top 100 Irish surnames lists that I've found online (one from the 1890s, the other from the 1990s). In order to get it correct, Fullerton would have had to know it.

:::::::: If instead of lying after the event and trying to involve all of you in the lie, Fullerton had simply turned around and said, "I'm sorry, it was a joke, I didn't realise Legoless didn't want his real name revealed" we wouldn't be here now. Refusing to publicly acknowledge that he's made a mistake is the exact thing that is making us question Fullerton's judgement, and whether he can be trusted with important wiki permissions. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 19:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} Let's all try to keep in mind that Fullerton is fifteen years old and on the autism spectrum. While it's not impossible, those don't generally go hand-in-hand with being a master manipulator. From what I've seen, he's doing his best to explain his actions but, being that age and not having a full comprehension of social interaction, he's not doing it in a way that neurotypical people would expect and want. And yeah, maybe like any teenager, he knows he's screwed up and just wants to figure out a way that'll get this over with the fastest, as opposed to something more appropriate, so he can move on and pretend this never happened. Being on the autism spectrum myself, I see quite clearly here the same types of mistakes I would have made at his age: not considering the effects of my actions on others and saying whatever was needed to make a problem go away, rather than having to interact with people in a negative way. That's autism!

The fact that he doesn't know how to respond in this situation may well be reason to go forward with the initial proposal, but let's also look at this from his perspective. How would you all have reacted when you were fifteen, caught doing something wrong, and everyone around you was older than you and yelling at you? It's not a fun position to be in. I'm not saying that should affect this decision, but it does give some important insight into Fullerton's responses to this conversation, I think.

Also, baratron raised an interesting point before the edit break. Does this mistake prevent him from patrolling or blocking in a responsible manner? The answer to that is clearly no from a purely logistical point of view. But we do have to consider the social and interpersonal ramifications of Fullerton's actions. Personally, I'm not convinced that removing him as a patroller and blocker will have any beneficial effect on the wiki, and I tend to think that Discord remedies should be sufficient for Discord problems in most cases. But, as I said above, I'm not opposed to the removal of rights, either. The simple fact is, an administrator here was affected because Fullerton didn't think his actions through, which is not really a desirable quality in someone with elevated rights. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:All right, I wasn't going to post, as I came back to the wiki/Discord right as this all happened and didn't see the build up to this (the "small" infractions e.g. the ableism), but I need to say something. Fullerton, your actions were inexcusable. It's not just the doxxing, or the admitted racism that went along with it. Your behavior has been deteriorating for a while. Even before I took my wikibreak, I had noticed that you seemed increasingly abrasive. And abrasive is not a good quality in a representative of the UESP. I was willing to overlook it, because you are young yet and have room to grow, but I cannot in good conscience allow this to continue. Even though I'm on the autism spectrum myself, I know to watch my words regarding other members of my community. Reclaiming words for yourself is one thing, but referring to ''other people'' that way without their knowledge or consent is, indeed, ableist. Just from that, I would have pushed for a time-out. As for the doxxing, I can't speak to the racism, but... Fullerton, you understand that doxxing is a ''violation'', right?

:I believe what this boils down to is consent, and a lack of respect for it. And that's a basic skill that nothing but time and experience can teach you, if ever. Add to that your defense to this incident, which has been... lacking at best, and I must advocate for demotion. Which is a shame, but a necessary one. —[[User:Likelolwhat|likelolwhat]] [[User talk:Likelolwhat|''talk lulzy to me'']] 20:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{Consensus|Removal of Rights|2=Alright, I think we've piled on enough. I'm calling this one now before it goes any further. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)}}

== OB:Efficient Leveling ==

[[OB:Efficient Leveling|Efficient Leveling]] may require protection to keep some utter nonsense off it. I've attempted to end it by contacting the user directly, but given that the user has had over a week to do the basic maths involved in discovering why it should not be on the page (5+5+5 does not equal 5+3+3), I hold no hope that they will come to understand that their edit should not remain on the page and will attempt to replace it again. I'm already on my third revert of the edit, and have no wish to get punished for keeping nonsense off a page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I've fully protected it for a period of 2 weeks. This shouldn't be a problem considering the low levels of editing attention that page has received in recent years, but if it needs to be lifted before then just let an admin know. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

== ESO Dragon Bones PTS Update ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS.

:* uespLog Addon -- Turn custom stats off (''/uespcustomstat off'') to stop a bug in the custom stat display otherwise you'll get error messages in most UI screens.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-17pts/ Files Uploaded] -- In progress...
:* Maps --
:* [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=17pts Skills] -- Done!
:* Skill Cooefficients --
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=17pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons --
:* Collectibles -- Updated to fix an issue with missing items from Live.

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

== UESP's Discord Server ==

As many of you no doubt noticed, I've recently referred to UESP's Discord chat as "dysfunctional". As the person on the wiki with the most rights next to Dave (out of the active users, at any rate), I am at all times aware that it's my duty to attempt to be professional and fair-minded in all things UESP related, so that is not a statement I make lightly. Administrators don't speak against administrators, generally, and when they do, it should be noted. That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why ''four different current- or ex-staff members'' are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming, and only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional. My concerns about how it's run are numerous, so I'll try to break them down into meaningful groups.
* '''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave. During my time on the server, I saw numerous examples of questionable behaviour on his part, including lying, manipulating, interfering in matters outside our server, and outright paranoia that another administrator was out to get him, simply for calling him on some of his behaviours. While those incidents are long gone and not worth getting into at this point, particularly since I have no way of bringing forth evidence at the moment, I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.
* '''Staff''': Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff (if even that). Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.
* '''Accountability/Transparency''': Continuing on from that last, far ''far'' too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public. When members complain, they then sound like trouble-makers. If the complaints escalate, they may even come to ''be'' trouble-makers, simply out of frustration. This needs to change. Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it. If the chatroom is cleared or deleted for any reason, chat logs should be kept and posted publicly, in order to ensure full transparency on any decisions.
* Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making. Even ''in'' political discussions, staff need to be certain that they're not being unnecessarily "twitchy" when it comes to deleting messages or moderating users. If any can be found, I think a few responsible, moderate right-wing people should be brought on as staff, to balance everyone else out and make sure the echo chamber phenomenon isn't perpetuated.
* I understand that the "dungeon" channel has been renamed, and I thank you all for that. This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff. The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help. In this configuration, staff have ''every'' advantage (numbers, increased rights, ability to discuss approach and strategy without the user's knowledge, to name a few), while the accused has none. That needs to be significantly altered. While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing. If the room is to be cleared or deleted afterwards, chat logs should be maintained and published publicly for future reference. Similarly, even if the chat takes place in a private room, chat logs should be maintained in a private location, accessible to all staff in any part of UESP. This will not only help to ensure continued transparency and accountability, it will also allow staff from other parts of the site to be aware of any problem behaviour occurring elsewhere.
* At ''no time'' should any administrator ever delete any comment, theirs or anyone else's, from any discussion relating to rules or discipline. If you say something that came out wrong or was inaccurate or what have you, apologize and move forwards. If you say something that you realize could get you in trouble, well, guess what? You're an administrator...you're accountable for what you say and do! Deal with the consequences like a responsible admin.
* '''Rules''': In far too many cases, rules are developed on an ad-hoc basis. An example from Fullerton's discussion, above, would be not posting the contents of the moderation room to a public room. That's not a rule that was posted anywhere prior to that. From all accounts, it was made up on the fly. If Fullerton wasn't just doing it to spam channels or leak private information, he had every right to post the contents of a discussion about him to wherever he felt it appropriate to do so. After all, it's a discussion about him, and he maintains absolute control over that information. If administrators felt that they said or did something they didn't want public in that chat, well, maybe they shouldn't have done that thing in the first place! I don't know if that's the case here, but accountability is one of the places I feel our Discord server needs the most work, so I'm bringing it up again here as an example.
* Similarly, all rules should be posted publicly to the wiki's Discord page, or a subpage, so that people can know what they are before joining, if they choose to look. This will also help maintain a record of when rules were enacted or changed.
* '''Cross-platform Interactions''': As a rule, what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server. I'm not just referring to the recent issue with Fullerton, but rather, reminding everyone of a rule that has long been in place and has sometimes been ignored: no decisions made on the Discord server should be applied to the wiki, forums, or wherever else, without there being a full discussion on the relevant platform. You can always post chat logs, if needed. Bringing this back to Fullerton, however, I feel that much of what happened was probably blown out of all proportion, from what I've been able to tell in chats with those involved. At best, I feel that this was a borderline case as to whether it should have been brought to the wiki. So, I'm going to suggest that we use this as "the line". If it's less serious of an incident than Fullerton's, keep Discord discipline limited to Discord. We don't need to perpetuate drama across the entire site. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

::Rob has hit all of the points I've had some concern about, and after telling me he was making the post, I wanted to throw in my agreement with each post. I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally. If there were any concerns, they could be brought up knowing it would be fairly handled either there or on our Administration Noticeboard. I feel like that's not the case at all in Discord, and when I was there, I had a handful of users DM me because they were upset that there was such a clear clique and pecking order established in the Discord. There's a lot more emphasis on authority and enforcement, rather than peaceful moderation, and it's affecting how comfortable people are - myself included - when using the Discord, hence my departure from it.

::Users shouldn't have to be concerned that what they say will be picked apart by a cabal (and I hate using this word) that seems to exist in the Discord where the staff are ganging up on people who can't adequately defend themselves. Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.

::I also agree with Rob's thoughts about how leadership is elected, and I feel like going forward there should be a clear election process or consensus to decide who is capable of being a staff member, because at present, I see questionable decisions on who should be staff, and I feel like there should be clear guidelines in place and a nomination process, not existing staff arbitrarily chosing people on their own, as I feel they've been prone to do. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 23:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

:::@RH While you are making some interesting points and some of them could definitely addressed, I still think you are way too exaggerating the problems on Discord. The dungeon channel, for example, is the alternative for outright banning. There is a reason that the person does not have access to the other channels, because it is (mostly) used a soft-ban. I will comment about the other points at another time, because I certainly believe some of them are (partly) right and some of the rules might be changed to reflect these concerns.
:::For now I want to point out this statement from Damon: "where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with." I have no idea why he said that, because everyone in that discussion is in the top 100 of most edits this year (and Damon, you are not there, but I ''do'' still think you have the right to pop-up into this conversation). I believe everyone has the right to have their say, because the wiki concerns a lot more people than only the editors. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I know I have not been an active user of Discord, having only used it about 3 times, but having read the post above, here and in the Fullerton case, my experience of basically being in charge of discipline on IRC (having kicked more people than the bot in charge of auto-kicking), and being one of the most active when I was there, I feel I can contribute/make observations from my experience there.
::::Almost every case of discipline was public, warnings, discussion, actions. Only very rarely did something discipline-wise happen off-channel, usually in private messaging, and usually only to bring attention to something that would then lead back into the public room. This is almost the same as happens on the wiki for demotions, punishments, warnings, even disputes about certain edits, with only a few instances of discussions happening via email. This is a very important point for avoiding accusations of cliquishness, even if it can't stop it. It actually helped that being a "staff" member on the wiki auto-entitled you to IRC status, as the wiki had little knowledge of a persons social leanings if they hadn't been on IRC.
::::The description of the multiple channels reinforces the observation that the channel is not being run for social interaction anymore, given the abundance of rules regarding where you have to post certain things; why are you not allowed to have fun in the main channel. That is an indictment of the current running of the channel, and I would suggest that the aforementioned Bethesda and Zenimax visitors would find that rather sad that no-one is having fun in case they "spoil" whatever passes for enjoyment in that stale environment. The IRC had an unwritten rule that you could have fun until someone needed help or to discuss something wiki/series related, and again it was rarely broken; this also lead to having many people in the channel who knew little about the games but were there to talk socially, making the place more enjoyable.
::::An overabundance of rules only tells people that you don't trust them to behave without them. I personally have probably broken every rule that wikipedia has cared to invent, yet respect most of them and enforce them when they are actually needed. Things thrive best when there are less rules, because the few that remain actually mean something. The current Discord wiki page is still not complete (a particular section is still linking back to the IRC page waiting for someone to adapt it for Discord). Nevertheless, it should not become full of rules as a result, and should continue the kind of informal style of the IRC page. I would also suggest that a complete rethink of all the rules be done, with some or many done away with, and also roll some of the off-shoot channels back into the main one, or merge some of the side ones together (less is so very much more).
::::Finally, a persons behaviour is their behaviour. An admins actions on IRC was an admins actions on the wiki. Even a persons actions off-site when representing the site should be held against them. This can be traced as far back as rpeh's admin rights removal for his actions off-site. When you become a staff member particularly, you are even-more-so representing the site, a responsibility you accept when you request or accept a role. However, back to IRC, an off-hand remark would often be forgotten if an apology was made, given the real-time nature of the network, only more serious actions would have led to something as big as rights-removals on the wiki (this is not a comment on the above discussion). To state it again, if RobinHood70 were to go anywhere on the internet and start doing reprehensible things (like saying my grammar is awful), and we knew it was him, he should be held accountable on the wiki and any of its offshoots (eg twitter/facebook management).
::::Feel free to ignore any of my advice/experience given my utter lack of Discord experience, just as I will continue to avoid social interaction with every one of you for the foreseeable future, given my right-wing stance on treating people with dignity and respect. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::First of all, I'd like to thank RobinHood for bringing this issue to the Noticeboard, and even more so with his resounding points, with which I agree in full in all cases.

:::::I have been one of the most active users in the UESP Discord server for close to an year or so (being on number 4 in the leaderboard - which is based roughly on the number of messages sent in the server - for quite a long period), until I voluntarily left a month ago due to my escalating issues with the moderation and administration of the server. My draft for this post got considerably long so I'll try to bullet point my issues and concerns to try for a more concise and cohesive post:

:::::* Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job. As expressed by some staff members on the server itself, some of them do not even want to moderate and administer the server, and many others have no idea what they’re doing, which has led and will certainly lead to a series of bad and questionable decisions, even more so given the apparent top to bottom hierarchy and authority even among the staff members.

:::::* Divide between the staff and the community: while a difference between the wiki staff and the general public is certain to be expected, it has been made unhealthy by the server privileges given to the wiki staff, creating a sub community that most of the time seems to behave as if they were above the “regular” users, which shouldn’t be the case, given that the server is open to the public. Interactions between most staff members (with exceptions) and the rest of the community are also fairly limited, creating a big divide in the general interpretation of the actions to be taken, which are made exclusively by this more secluded and reserved group than by the biggest share of the active user base; and, as RH said, without consultation or open discussion with that part of the community.

:::::* Poor and inconsistent moderation/decision making: staff behaviour in regards to rule enforcement and problem-solving is completely inconsistent, while one staff might be strict, many others are extremely lax or never actually do anything, and even when the staff intervene, the actions taken vary absurdly from one to the next, and most of the time the staff board as a whole is extremely reactionary and ready to blow something minor and irrelevant out of proportion, making the many suffer for the sins of the one. It seems to me that the staff members lack a good guideline (if they have one at all) on how to treat the server, which ties in to the first point, of staff members not prepared to handle a chat server or unwilling to do so.

:::::Other than that, I would like to stress the points about Accountability and Cross-platforming that RH has made, which I believe are very important here. And despite what Ilaro has to say, all of these are very serious problems for the well-functioning of a chat server and the UESP server specifically, and all of the users I interact with on a more frequent basis, either on UESP or the other six TES servers I’m a part of, all notice and are bothered with most of the points raised here. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 01:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{ec|4}} I didn't bring it up further because the discussion was about Fullerton's rights on the wiki, not your opinion on the Discord server. But I must say that I was rather put out by your comment that the server is "dysfunctional". And maybe it is, if that ideal of functionality is based on the functionality a wiki. But Discord is not a wiki, it's an instant messaging and VoIP service, which is an entirely different medium.
::::::'''Ownership''': While I agree that technically it would be better if Dave was the server owner, I don't think he is active enough on Discord for that to actually be practical. A Discord server needs an active server owner so that they are available to deal with whatever issues crop up that only the server owner can deal with.
::::::'''Staff''': The original assignment of Discord staff based on being elected staff elsewhere on UESP is untenable. It was mentioned to us numerous times that a number of staff elsewhere have been avoiding the Discord because they didn't want to be staff on Discord. Everyone who was initially appointed as Discord staff this way has, as far as I am aware, now been contacted though to see whether they actually want to remain Discord staff or not. So that whole thing actually didn't make sense at all, as it was putting people into a position they didn't want. When it comes to appointing new staff, it appears to work the same way that it does here. Someone is approached by current staff with the suggestion. I think it's a very rare occurrence for someone to actually put themselves forward for a staff position of their own volition, or even with encouragement from other users, without at least one of those other users being staff already.
::::::'''Accountability/Transparency''': I actually don't understand the issue here. It is common practice for administration to be discussed in a private channel that is specifically for discussing administration. If that was done in a public channel, then effectively everyone is now an administrator. Although I do agree that anything that would have an effect on the entire userbase should be discussed with the entire userbase, I can't think of any examples right now where that has actually happened. (I'm sure you can though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up, so I'd be interested in having some examples.)
::::::There does appear to be an "anti-anything-remotely-right" bias, which I think may cause any staff members who are not left-leaning, if they do exist, to not make it obvious.
::::::Yes, the dungeon channel is now called "mediation". Whenever the channel is cleared, the contents are logged and are available to other staff on request. The isolation from the rest of the server is intentional - being put in the "dungeon", as was, is effectively banning someone from the rest of the server without actually kicking them from the server (you can't talk to them if they're kicked). It originally existed solely for this purpose; someone isn't banned if they can still access the other channels. This has been repurposed however, and I think can now serve as a "public" moderation chatroom, if such a thing would ever be required (but I can't think of any examples why it would be, as then it could just be discussed in #general).
::::::I'm not sure what your "deleting comments" sentence is getting at. Comments that violate the rules would of course be deleted, but I don't think that's what you mean...
::::::'''Rules''': On that specific example, a rule that has existed since the initial staff overhaul in October is ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential"''. Since that rule only applies to staff, only staff can see it, to avoid confusing the rest of the userbase. Fullerton was well aware of this rule, and anyone who is suspended to the moderation channel is informed of it as well.
::::::While conceptually similar to the IRC, I think the way Discord has grown means that "token AOPs and HOPs" is just not a viable moderation method. The (rather high) number of staff required to maintain a large server probably does make it seem like there's a clique, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on how we can try to avoid that, yet while still maintaining necessary server integrity.
::::::I do not see anyone who commented on Fullerton's case who is not a regular/active UESP wiki contributor, based on the active editors from the last 12 months. Although it would be up to whoever decides what "consensus" actually is to determine whether consensus can be reached based on the currently-involved participants.
::::::Regarding how staff are chosen, I have no idea how it works on the Forums, but however it works there is probably the best model to use as a base for what we do on Discord. A forum is much more similar to a chat server than a wiki. Having a two-week discussion to reach someone's arbitrary definition of "consensus" is not a viable basis.
::::::In conclusion however, if "what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server", surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it'', and then be involved in the implementation process of actually making the thing better. "Fixing a broken system that we didn't realise was broken" is what I've been doing at work for the past three months, and the best progress towards a resolution always comes out of a discussion where a clear direction of what to do next is given.

::::::@Silencer: If there appears to be a "rule against fun" in the main channel on Discord, let me know where that seems to have stemmed from, as that's not something I would support (although given how active the main channel usually is, I don't actually see it). Also if there is a general feeling that there is an overabundance of rules, I'd be happy to discuss trying to cut them down, if we can work out what's not actually needed.

::::::@Bryn: Immediate moderation rights for staff was a concept that was based on trust. i.e., "if they're trusted to moderate elsewhere, they're trusted to moderate Discord too". But we realised this was not what many of the other staff wanted, and as such, this is no longer the case, and all who were initially appointed like this have (I think) been contacted to ask if they wish to continue. Anyone newly appointed to a staff position elsewhere on UESP retains that original concept of "trust" though, and by that reasoning, are still asked if they would be interested in moderating Discord based on that. Any suggestions for improving staff/community interaction would be welcome, but I maintain what I said before that server moderation cannot be a community activity. There is definitely inconsistency within staff behaviour, but I don't actually know how that can be improved, as everyone will have their own way of doing things. In terms of actual rule enforcement (i.e., moderation), there is no reason that shouldn't be consistent if the rules are the same for everyone. Again, if people who "are bothered" by this come forward with their problems ''and solutions'', then there is no reason that we can't address these.
::::::--[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Eno: I appreciate the changes being made, and while I can see the reasoning for the trust factor, I think a competence qualification should also be looked for in a communication medium that works fundamentally different from what those people are used to moderate. I have proposed the following solution at least two times publicly on Discord and a few times directly to staff members, but it has so far been ignored. What I've always proposed is a divorce between wiki staff and Discord staff; there should be specific roles and channels for wiki and forum and guild and what-have-you staff, for sure, so that they can discuss topics that concern their specific roles, but those people should not also be made or necessarily even asked to become moderators for the server, and this should instead be relegated to members picked for showing aptness to follow and enforce rules and integrity in chat, kinda like I hear the "Tea Party Moderators" were selected (although I think this current approach is still flawed). I didn't go at length with this suggestion in my previous comment because it was already too long as it was and I felt it was detracting myself from making the points I thought needed to be made. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 02:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::{{ec}} @Enodoc: I'll respond more fully later, as it'll take some time for me to really go through this point by point, but I did want to respond to one thing that may help clarify my attitude and actions here. Specifically, your suggestion that ''surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it''.''

::::::::The problem here is that in taking this discussion to the Discord server, we are stating that we're willing to rejoin the server in its current state. I, for one, am not. I do not want to be seen as supporting it in any way right now. Yes, I think it's actually that dysfunctional, or at least it was the last time I was there. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if a discussion of the server takes place ''on'' the server, staff there are under absolutely no obligation to do anything whatsoever about the suggestions made and, unless we all go there together at the same time, any individual comments will be lost in the chatter of the general channel. The user could well be deemed a trouble-maker and have their comments deleted. Even if it did become a highly active discussion there, as you can see from some of the comments here, trust in some of the Discord staff is not high among some users. We simply have no confidence that any discussion held on the server wouldn't simply be deleted. By holding it here, on the wiki, it's not in Discord staff's hands, and a full, permanent record is available to any and all without requiring them to join UESP's Discord. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}I'll preface this by saying that I am one of the "current or former patrollers" mentioned above who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that the UESPWiki Discord server is being run. Make of that what you will.

One of the most serious issues I attempted to raise during my (brief) time in the channel was the lack of transparency which seems to have become endemic since the move was made from IRC. This has manifested itself most notably in the deletion of the block logs page - Fullerton also attempted to address that, above. Frankly, I don't feel Alarra's argument that a public list of banned users would encourage misbehavior holds any water, and I'd appreciate some clarification of this claim, if she’d be so kind.

Is there a precedent that's made you feel this way? Do you feel the same way about the [[Special:BlockList|block logs]] on the wiki? Should they be privatized on the basis that they might encourage infamy? I moderated the [[UESPWiki:IRC|now defunct IRC channel]] for more than three years, and during that time the [[UESPWiki:IRC/Bans|channel block log]] was maintained meticulously, because it was understood that the chat was simply an extension of the wiki, and so the same rules applied - including record keeping. I’m disturbed to see that this commitment to openness has fallen by the wayside so completely, and in such a short amount of time.

On the topic of record keeping, I find the accusation levelled against Fullerton that he ''"posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created)"'' really, really worrying, and actually symptomatic of a much larger culture of silence. If a user feels uncomfortable with the way that staff are treating them, and feels they're being dealt with unfairly, they shouldn't just be permitted to raise the issue elsewhere - they should be encouraged to do so.

''"He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users."'' Once again, where on the Discord guidelines page does it say that this is grounds for removal of role? Why is this grounds for punishment at all? Conversations with staff members are not top-secret information - if someone feels uncomfortable with the way a staff member has spoken to them, and feels that policy has been violated, they're within their rights to consult another user for a second opinion. A second set of eyes can offer valuable insight. Ordinarily, going to another, unbiased staff member would be preferable, but that's difficult if you feel there ''aren't'' any unbiased staff members.

I’ll admit this part of the post struck a chord with me, personally. In the past, I was repeatedly bullied and called horrible names by a member of wiki staff, in a series of IRC private messages which began under the guise of a reprimand for misbehaviour. This bully had been on the site far longer than I had, and was a well-established member of the community; I was the same age at the time as Fullerton is now, and I had no idea how to react. I firmly hold that distributing the logs of those discussions was the right thing to do, even if it was a technical violation of the rules; it meant that others were able to tell me that yes, this was something inappropriate and no, I wasn’t at fault. People in authority are not above authority. The user in question was ultimately blocked, which should tell you all you need to know. Transparency of moderator behaviour is important to ensure fairness and equality.

''"Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers."'' In other words, anyone who disagrees with the actions taken by the moderation staff - even if those actions have no written basis and are made up on the fly - should be blacklisted regardless of prior behaviour. Good to know.

''"Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business."'' This one speaks for itself, I think, as to the contempt some current staff members hold for the users they preside over, but I'd like to quote the page on [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]] anyway:

''"All editors' opinions should be given equal weight. In particular, administrators do not have inherently greater authority than other editors. Because of their greater experience with the UESPWiki, administrators may have more knowledge of how content is currently organized on the site, or be able to refer to similar examples on other wiki pages. Therefore, administrators (and experienced editors) may be able to provide more support for their position. Their reasoning, rather than their status, may therefore cause their opinion to influence a discussion."'' Ahem.

''"The reason we created (the #dungeon) is to have time to let all moderators give input."'' Some of the moderators on the Discord server were not, in fact, elected by the wiki community at all. Yet they're being treated - and are behaving - as though they were not only administrators, but final arbiters of justice. Are staff who were given their positions with no input from the people they're supposed to be moderating really qualified to do so?

These quotes all illustrate a wider lack of accountability by the staff members to the community as a whole. Other examples of bad practice can be seen in instances where [[Skyrim_talk:Proudspire_Manor#Transclusion_to_Houses|consensus is reached]] [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|on Discord with no input]] from the wider editor base, the argument being made that anyone who wants to partake in discussions should simply use Discord, or in Dillon deciding to make [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Discord&diff=1697969&oldid=1696580 significant changes to the guidelines] by removing the part which said that all staff members were equal in the channel with absolutely no discussion at all. The fallout from that little change was the creation of a "non-staff patroller" role, once again without any discussion, which was allocated to certain blacklisted users. Unsurprisingly, no mention of this distinction is made on the page.

If we go further back, we can see [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans|AKB unilaterally deleting the block logs]] page, on the basis that it “serves no purpose.” I beg to differ in the strongest possible terms, and I know I’m not the only one. I was told in the channel that the reason for this decision was actually because it was inconvenient to keep it updated; judging by Alarra’s post above, that narrative has been amended retroactively.

Another problematic aspect of the channel was the consistent jeering, mocking and snide remarks by the staff about a specific, very active wiki editor, behind his back. Since I haven't preserved the logs of this bullying, and since it took place publicly only on occasion, with the majority of the vitriol being espoused in a private channel by the administrative staff, it doesn't particularly serve as evidence, but I certainly wasn't the only person to witness it. As far as I know the user who was the subject of these taunts is still unaware that this ever occurred, or that he was frequently the butt of the administration’s jokes.

I myself was also mocked, publicly, by an administrator after I left the UESPWiki server; several users I shared servers with told me separately that I had been “dissed” by someone who was supposedly a role model. That’s not on. As Lady N so succinctly put it, this is about people ''“who (have) been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.”''

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. The recent behaviour of some members has been the opposite of that. You’re there to serve the community, not to rule over it. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 02:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:Again I want to comment about the accusations that are held against Discord. There are so many points now that I have no time (now) to discuss them, but [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|this]] link you shared @KitKat shows the contrary of what you are arguing. One: it was an edit that added a merge ''proposal''. Two: it was brought to the wiki ''because'' it was something that should reach consensus here and not on Discord. It is impossible to keep all ideas and brainstorming on the wiki when there is another chat platform available and I don't see the problem with asking input and refining ideas before making edits (Most edits are already made without any pre-knowledge of other editors, only larger ideas and problems are brought to the talk pages and/or community portal and this is/should still be the case if Discord is used as a mediator). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 03:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::Because one of my edits was mentioned specifically, I'd like to respond to that. The edit to UESPWiki:Discord was simply to reflect the current setup of the roles and channels at that time. I did not intend to change any guidelines, and if I did it was a mistake. I can definitely understand having a discussion on the talk page first before making major changes to the staff roles on Discord. However, these changes were already decided (and not by me personally) when I made that edit so I was updating outdated information. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Could you point me to the discussion held on the wiki (ie; on the [[UESPWiki_talk:Discord|talk page]] for the Discord server, the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|Admin Noticeboard]], or the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|Community Portal]]) where it was decided unanimously that all staff members on the server were no longer equal to one another? Because that's the sentence you removed: "There are three staff roles with equal standing" was amended so that it no longer stated each staff role was equal. That's a significant departure from the previous content of the page; when was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? And for that matter, why was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? You haven't said in your edit summary. As a patroller myself, I had and have a vested interest in this discussion, but I wasn't invited to participate at all. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 03:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I think you are misunderstanding the change. The staff-related permissions of Blocker, Patroller, Moderator, and Officer were merged into the Staff role. Patroller gives access to the #patrolling channel, but otherwise the roles serve only to identify ranks outside Discord. I removed the "equal standing" bit because the result was a single staff role and equal standing is redundant when you have one role. As for admins being above regular staff, the sentence was referring to the four previous staff roles, not admins and staff together. It was already the case that admins were above staff and my edit did not change that. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::Yes, but some members who currently have the "Staff" role '''aren't actually blockers or patrollers'''. They have no elevated role on the wiki or the forums. They can't block people or patrol things, even if they want to. Having this multifaceted role denoting permissions which they don't, in reality, possess, is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the administration as a whole. It's also needlessly confusing.

:::::'''EDIT''': You said that "these changes were already decided (and not by me personally)," yet '''you''' made the edit. At whose behest were these changes made, please, and why didn't they edit it themselves? [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 04:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::: I'm rather tired since I have been working on UESP social media today, but there do seem to be a few misunderstandings in the above which I feel that I should comment on.
:::::: @RobinHood: "''That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why four different current- or ex-staff members are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming''". I didn't ask because I already know why.
:::::: @RobinHood: "'''''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave.''" This is not entirely true. AKB is indeed the "Founder" of our Discord server, but of course Dave has the right to challenge him if he (Dave) feels that AKB is doing a bad job. I can see a long message from Dave on 28th February 2017 in the staff channel (#discord_business) where Dave was admonishing AKB.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.'' Many of us would not disagree. Certainly when Dave first showed up on Discord, AKB offered to pass server ownership onto him, but Dave said that it should remain in the hands of someone who is there every day. This can be revisited if necessary.
:::::: The question is really whether people have a '''specific''' objection to AKB, or whether any of the current staff would be acceptable provided that they were elected in some manner. Which leads me directly onto:
:::::: @RobinHood: '''''Staff:''' Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, [...] This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff'' I'm a little confused about your point here. I agree that I was not elected to be the Guildmaster of the UESP Guild on the North American PC/Mac server, I was directly appointed by Dave. This was fully supported by all other Guild Officers at the time (2nd November 2014).
:::::: I'm confused because on the one hand you're saying that Dave should ultimately be in charge of the Discord server, and on the other hand suggesting that all staff should be elected by agreement with existing users. These two ideas seem to be in contradiction.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it.'' This would be a wonderful idea if only everyone had the common sense and/or maturity to keep to the topic in hand. Real-time conversations end up with people posting meme images or attempting to talk entirely with emojis, and such like. The wiki or the forums are both better places for reasoned discussion due to their non-real-time nature, with Discord itself perhaps best purely for presenting the ideas for a vote.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff.'' If the dungeon chatlog was not cleared, then the next person to enter the channel would be able to see the private conversation of the previous person. If a user has been "in trouble" and been dealt with, it seems very unfair for the next user to be able to see their entire conversation with staff.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help.'' Discord has a private messaging system and it is entirely possible for a person to send PMs to their friends explaining what is going on and asking for help. Indeed, if a user requested a friend to support them, that could easily be arranged. Discord admin are able to create custom roles to add any member to any channel if necessary.
:::::: @RobinHood: ''While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing.'' See my previous comment about keeping to the topic at hand. While Fullerton was in the #dungeon (before it was renamed), other users in #apprentice_workshop (the channel for our more active regulars) were coming up with such genius comments as whether they could have Fullerton's EXP if he was banned. (As you know but others may not, there is a "level up" bot/game on the server.) Such comments would have been most unsuitable during a moderation discussion.
:::::: @Damon: ''I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally.'' IRC was '''orders of magnitude''' smaller than Discord. I believe #uespwiki had around 50-60 members at its peak, and #uespforums had 10-20 members. Discord, in comparison, has 1885 members right now. It is impossible to have the same "feel" with a community where literally everyone knows everyone else, compared to a much larger community. This is why most of us choose to hang out in the channels which most suit our interests. I read absolutely everything posted in #online, for example.
:::::: @Damon: ''Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.'' I'm still not sure what you mean by this. I'm sure everyone who commented uses the wiki at least several times per week.
:::::: @Brynjar: ''Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job.'' As Enodoc pointed out, this is no longer the case. This is a change which I had been asking for since 14th December 2017 which finally went through on 28th December 2017.
:::::: To conclude, yes, there have been problems with the Discord server in the past. For example, there had been a problem with certain admin making unilateral decisions without consulting other staff. However, I feel that over the past month, we've really pulled together. It is definitely much more of a team effort now - especially in the couple of weeks since our new Tea Party Moderators came onboard. I'm sad that people are continuing to criticise the way that Discord is run based on how it was run several months ago, rather than how it is run now.
:::::: This is really all I have time for, but I will answer any questions or comments. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 04:32, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @Kitkat I'm sorry, there seems to be a misunderstanding. Previously we had Admin, then three classes of ordinary Staff: Wiki Patrollers, Forum Moderators, and Guild Officers. The abilities/privileges of the ordinary Staff were identical, but they were marked by a different colour - red for Patrollers, green for Forum Moderators, purple for Guild Officers. This was because we initially thought it would be useful for users to know which part of the UESP each person was responsible for. Patrollers also had access to the #patrolling channel, but I don't think the other two classes of Staff were forbidden from looking in there, it was just assumed they wouldn't want/need to.

::::::: As the server got larger, we decided that rather than wasting colours needlessly marking people based on which part of UESP they had come from, we would roll the three classes of ordinary Staff into one, and mark them all red. This is the change which Dillon made to UESPWiki:Discord. The decision was made on 27th-28th October 2017. It looks like the decision was made by Alarra, AKB, me, Dillon, Enodoc, and Ilaro, being all of the staff active during that period other than RobinHood, who actually resigned from Discord on 28th October, and Lady Nerevar, who said she had no opinion. Dillon made the wiki edit because he was available to do so.

::::::: To clarify further, it was never the case that Patrollers were "equal to" Admins. Discord Admin have access to additional commands, such as the ability to create custom roles for users, the ability to assign users to these roles, the ability to change the colours associated with the roles, the ability to change the 30 server emoji, etc. Mostly boring administrative things which don't need to be done very often. This is not to say that Admin are ''more important'' than Patrollers and the other ordinary server Staff, but it is a different role. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 04:56, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I don't think I'd say it's so much a misunderstanding, as it is that you haven't answered my questions or addressed my concerns.

::::::::''"The decision was made on 27th-28th October 2017. It looks like the decision was made by Alarra, AKB, me, Dillon, Enodoc, and Ilaro, being all of the staff active during that period other than RobinHood, who actually resigned from Discord on 28th October, and Lady Nerevar, who said she had no opinion. Dillon made the wiki edit because he was available to do so."''

::::::::Yes, '''I was in the UESPWiki server at the time.''' I wasn't, however, permitted access to staff channels, which is obviously where all these decisions took place: behind closed doors, as per usual. I was a patroller in the channel at the time this change was made, and I'd like to know why it wasn't discussed anywhere on the wiki as it should have been, and I'd also like to know why myself and the other "non staff patrollers" weren't given the opportunity to participate in a discussion which affected us directly.

::::::::Your response has actually bolstered exactly the point I'm trying to make, though: unilateral decisions are commonly made by a select few on a secret server with no input from the wider community. This '''is the root of the problem.''' It appears as though there is a deeply ingrained culture of holding discussions in secret because it minimizes the risk of potential dissent and disagreement, which is not only untenable, but absolutely antithetical to the fundamental principles of both a wiki and a community. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 06:04, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T04:19:33Z

Kitkat1749: Query.

[[Category:Message Boards]][[Category:UESP Administration]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<div style="float:right">{{Scrolling Archive Table|class=collapsible collapsed|height=225px|width=300px
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 1|Archive 1|February 2005 – June 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 2|Archive 2|June 2006 – August 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 3|Archive 3|September 2006 – June 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 4|Archive 4|June 2007 – July 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 5|Archive 5|August 2007 – October 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 6|Archive 6|October 2007 – November 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 7|Archive 7|December 2007 – January 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 8|Archive 8|January 2008 – February 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 9|Archive 9|February 2008 – August 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 10|Archive 10|September 2008 – October 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 11|Archive 11|November 2008 – December 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 12|Archive 12|December 2008 – March 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 13|Archive 13|April 2009 – December 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14|Archive 14|January 2010 – May 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 15|Archive 15|June 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 16|Archive 16|June 2010 – October 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 17|Archive 17|November 2010 – January 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 18|Archive 18|February 2011 – April 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 19|Archive 19|May 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 20|Archive 20|June 2011 – August 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 21|Archive 21|September 2011 – October 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 22|Archive 22|November 2011 – December 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 23|Archive 23|December 2011 – February 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 24|Archive 24|February 2012 – March 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25|Archive 25|April 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 26|Archive 26|May 2012 – June 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 27|Archive 27|July 2012 - August 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 28|Archive 28|August 2012 - October 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 29|Archive 29|October 2012 - December 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 30|Archive 30|January 2013 - March 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 31|Archive 31|March 2013 - June 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 32|Archive 32|July 2013 - November 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 33|Archive 33|December 2013 - February 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 34|Archive 34|March 2014 - August 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 35|Archive 35|August 2014 - November 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 36|Archive 36|November 2014 - September 2015
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 37|Archive 37|March 2015 - February 2016
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 38|Archive 38|March 2016 - May 2017
}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}</div>
The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions.

'''Before starting a discussion here,''' please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.
{{Example Table|
Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
{{Bullet Link|[[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|Policies and Guidelines]]|A category listing of policies and guidelines, which each have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies (see [[#Active Discussions|Active Discussions]] for links to active policy discussions).}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism]]| Discussions regarding vandalism and spam.}}
{{Bullet Link|Community Portal|The main discussion forum used for community-wide discussions about UESP's operations, policies, design, and improvement.}}
{{Bullet Link|Reference Desk|This is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.}}
{{Bullet Link|Community Portal/Templates|Technical issues regarding templates and related issues can be discussed on this page.}}
Specific requests can be made on these pages:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Bot Requests|Bot Requests]]|This page can be used to request that one of the wiki's bots take on a task.}}
{{Bullet Link|Image Requests|You can request specific images for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|Creation Kit Information Requests|You can request specific Creation Kit information for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|New Page Requests|You can request a new page here if you were prevented from creating the page yourself.}}
{{Bullet Link|Purge Requests|If you are having problems viewing an article on UESP, the page may need to be purged. New purge requests can be made here.}}
In addition, past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard can be found at:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives#Chronological_Archives|AN Archives]]|Lists all of the past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard, including major discussions and chronological archives.}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives#Past_Administrative_Requests|Past Administrative Requests]]|A list of all previous requests for administrator and other administrative requests.}}
}}

== Getting redirected to mobile pages ==

After some debugging I've reached the conclusion that this is happening because of the Squid cache server you use: a user visits a page from his mobile phone, and the mobile version of the page gets cached in the Squid server. The next person who loads the page gets the mobile version, regardless of what platform he's browsing from, because that's what's saved in the Squid cache.

This only happens to unregistered users, since logged in users don't have their caches paged by Squid. If it happens to you, you can press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Squid to bypass its own cache and serve you the current page.

But, please, fix it. It is very annoying. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 17:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the note...this shouldn't be the case as the desktop and mobile versions of the page are different URLS (en.uesp.net and en.m.uesp.net) but a quick test seems to agree with you. I'll check it out further and see if it can be fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::So I must have got really lucky with my quick tests as I can't recreate the issue in on other page or with the original page (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa) once I purge it. If you can give some more explicit examples of how you are testing it so we can replicate that would be great. Squid does cache using the full URL so it would seem that this is not the complete issue at the very least. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::One of your assumptions is wrong. All users get the mobile theme from en.uesp.net, provided they have the user-agent of a mobile browser.
:::A quick way to reproduce this with a computer would be like this. '''Do all of this while logged off!'''
:::* Open Google Chrome and hit F12, this will open the developer tools toolbox. At the top-left side of this toolbox, the second icon next to the mouse cursor is a mobile and a tablet ("Toggle device toolbar"), click it. You'll see the current page has stretched; click the dropdown on top of it that says "Responsive" and switch it to some mobile phone, "Galaxy S5" is OK. Now, you're sending the user-agent of a Samsung mobile phone.
:::* Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa -- depending on who visited it the last time, it'll be the full or the mobile version.
:::* Press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Chrome to reload the page, telling the web server to completely disregard the cache. This will make Squid destroy its own cache and ask MediaWiki for the webpage. You'll see the mobile version appear as it should: MediaWiki is being told you're a mobile phone, and therefore you're getting the wiki with the mobile theme.
:::* Open a new tab. This time, it's the normal browser; you're not pretending to be a mobile. Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa You'll get the mobile version of the wiki. This confirms it's cached in Squid like that because you just visited it from a mobile phone. Press Ctrl+Shift+R, this way Squid will destroy its cache and ask MediaWiki again for the webpage. You'll get the full version, because you have the user-agent of a computer.
:::* Switch back to the mobile tab. Click the URL field and press enter to reload the webpage making sure you're '''not''' bypassing the Squid cache. You'll get the full version of the page, because that's what you cached. If you press Ctrl+Shift+R again from here, you'll get the mobile version.
:::* And so on.
:::I hope you can reproduce it. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 18:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::::Ahh, that was it. For some reason the "autodetect" portion was still on. I turned that off and have to figure out how to auto-redirect mobile devices to the mobile site (which I thought it was doing). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I made some changes which include a forced redirect to the mobile site to prevent the cache poisoning. Give it a go and see if that works for you now or not. It seems that MobileFrontEnd doesn't redirect itself and it is handled by another part of MediaWiki or the HTTP server in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::tyvm. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::Well, I have just realised this keeps happening. The only difference now is that instead of the whole mobile page being cached, what's cached is the redirect to en.m.uesp.net, but the effect is the same. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 11:04, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Of course it does...:) I made a quick change to try and prevent Squid from caching the 302 redirect. Once again it "seems" to work in a few quick tests but if you find otherwise let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Also had to make an unrelated change in order to get HTTPS to work for the mobile changes so the "en.m.uesp.net" mobile sites are no longer going through Squid which prevents them from being cached at all (at least for the moment until I can figure out multiple SSL certificates in Squid 2.x). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}Starting a new line - i have noticed that this has started happening again recently. (Like before, its fairly annoying, as it autochanges every time). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Testing New Ad Network ==

I happened to have a chat with some from Curse recently who mentioned that they run an ad network for gaming related sites which includes better vetting of ads to reduce/eliminate the number of "bad ads" (auto scrolling, auto playing, inappropriate content, etc...). I've signed up for a 2 month test run with them to supply all the ads on UESP during this time. I'm setting it up this week so except a bunch of changes from day to day. I'm hoping this give us roughly the same revenue to keep the site running and reduce user frustration with ads.

If you run into page errors or ad issues of any kind don't hesitate to let me know (Curse ads are not yet active). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:I'm sure a lot of people will be happy if it is an improvement. Some others will be happier with the new puns available (including the ability to Curse ads). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

::In a confused second I found myself looking for the "Like" button to express my support. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 20:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if this is an error, but as of today, AdBlock blocks ads but leaves a blank space at the top where the ad was, instead of collapsing that blank space. I'm also seeing ads at the top when logged in (or a blank space if AdBlock is enabled), but I have not logged in for a while so I don't know if that is new or was intentionally changed. '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►t]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►e]] 14:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

::::I have the same blank space as Vely, however I don't see any ads at all and I don't even have an ad blocker. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm not one to complain about blank spaces if they are caused by ad-blockers, but I've just tested with Chrome and Opera (as well as my use of Firefox) and the blank spaces at both the top and bottom are persisting when the inbuild blockers are active. The blank space can be rather off-putting and looks odd, so something should be done, whether removing it or putting one of those explanatory messages about why ads are needed. Feels odd to be cursing the lack of ads. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I did not even know there was an inbuilt blocker in Chrome, and I have certainly not actively turned it on. (Where is the setting for that?) Still there are these blank spaces on the top and bottom of the articles where the ads were supposed to be. How can this ad network give any revenue if the more common browsers are blocking the ads by default? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:My mistake, Chrome is planning to add one (by next year), I thought they already had one. Without my installed one the ads appear, with it blank spaces. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

::All the more an issue. The ads are not there on my Chrome. Just an empty space over the article and an empty space under it. And I have no known adblock software. The ads are there with Edge. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 17:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I have got the ads now, with no change in my settings. (Still Chrome on Win10) —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 05:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As a temporary workaround for the top ad taking up space when it shouldn't, I've added a means of suppressing that specific ad altogether. To do so, just add <code>#topad { display:none; }</code> to [[Special:Mypage/common.css|your common.css]] page on a new line. See [[User:RobinHood70/common.css|mine]] if you want an example. A few provisos: only logged-in users can do this, since IP users can't customize their CSS (at least, not via the wiki), and this may change or be removed at any point, since it's not an ideal long-term solution and it will obviously depend whether we want to keep the new ads in the long-run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless I'm missing something this isn't active wiki-wide nor have I touched my cs, yet the top space is gone. I've logged in and out, and on both Firefox and Opera the space is gone, though it remains on Chrome (no adblocker). Perhaps it just needed a purge with the new ads? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

::Somehow, I'm not really surprised, even though nothing I did should have had that effect. There have been a lot of different reports of ads, space, or nothing, with no apparent rhyme or reason. Caching of some kind could well be part of the problem. At least for those who are just getting a big blank space, this'll let them get rid of it. I'm largely leaving the rest to Dave, though, because I don't actually know what all was involved with the new ads, and there's clearly things affecting them that I'm unaware of, so I didn't want to poke around too much. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Can we go back to the old ads please? Or at the very least block the ones with autoplaying videos. I've been getting those on every other page, and you'll probably go deaf if you dare open more than 2 tabs. There's no way to report them, and I don't think the Steam Overlay browser supports any adblockers. [[Special:Contributions/98.18.163.16|98.18.163.16]] 00:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I see all these postings about video ads, but I can not seem to have registered any of them myself. Are there wide variations on who gets them and not? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 13:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect Escaping Issue ==

This is probably a pretty specific issue, but when you search with the <code>!uesp</code> bang on DuckDuckGo, it sends you to e.g. <code>www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim:skyrim&...</code> which gets 301 redirected to the appropriate language subdomain such as <code>en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim%253Askyrim&...</code>, but the search field seems to get double URL encoded in the process, so when it gets decoded after the redirect, colons show up as <code>%3A</code> in the search field and there's no results. This also happens with spaces, turning them into <code>%20</code>, so the search is basically unusable via the DDG bang. Hopefully this can be fixed, as it would otherwise be super convenient! [[User:DuBistKomisch|DuBistKomisch]] ([[User talk:DuBistKomisch|talk]]) 15:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

:This appears to be a problem with their coding, as it also fails when using it to search wikipedias subnamespaces. It appears they are using hex codes when converting, rather than the standard html codes used on mediawikis. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

== beyondskyrim.uesp.net? ==

I'd like to bring up the issue of this new wiki and point editors towards [http://beyondskyrim.uesp.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page this discussion]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless Dave has given his permission that wiki is infringing on our name and our site/servers. I don't believe it has permission seeing as it makes no sense to have a separate wiki on the same site, detracting from the main one, and it is duplicating the layout by wikipedia and not here. I can't see any links for contacting the site owners but if they are the same people as the ones editing here I suggest they either cease and desist or let it be known that they have dave's permission to use his servers. I've emailed Daveh, as others probably have too, to get this sorted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's hosted by us/Dave, apparently at the request of the mod authors. However, I also agree that it's damaging to our own Tes5Mod documentation to set up a competing wiki. If we're hosting it, it should be on our platform. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::: First of all, there's definitely no infringement issues, as it was set up by Dave together with one of the Beyond Skyrim team leaders. I hope Dave doesn't mind me posting this, but here's the discussion between myself and him after the BS developers concluded that they wanted to ditch their unused wiki at Dark Creations:
<pre>
Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Have you ever considered hosting other Elder Scrolls fan wikis?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
What other ES fan wikis?

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
The Beyond Skyrim guys are apparently looking to move their wiki out of Dark Creations.

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Ahh, I see
We could definitely host that for them if they'd like
We've hosted a bunch of small fan sites over the years.
TamrielRebuilt is one the larger ones (no longer with us but we had it for a while).

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Don't we still have TR stuff in the TES3Mod namespace? Or are they not using it any more?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Not sure what we have on the wiki, but they had their own web site/dev wiki seperate from ours.
I think we have some general info in the UESP wiki.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Ah OK.
Well thanks for the offer of hosting, I'll pass that on to them and see what they say!

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Yup, that goes for any ES site that happens to need hosting, temporary or otherwise.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Hmm, I will endeavour to remember that :smiley:
27 June 2017
</pre>
:::Now personally, if Dave is happy with the concept, then so am I, and since the BS wiki ''itself'' is a product of the BS team, then I don't think the UESP wiki administration has any say on whether it actually exists or not. The alternative would be that it's just hosted somewhere else. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: The Tamriel Rebuilt content we host is in-depth and high-standard, and includes the [[Tes4Mod:Stirk|Stirk Oblivion mod]] in addition to the main [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|TES3 project]] which is still updated by members of the modding team and UESP editors alike. The Tamriel Rebuilt [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ website] mentioned in the conversation above is not a (public) wiki. This Beyond Skyrim website, on the other hand, is in direct competition with UESPWiki. As you said, its existence is a decision for the modding team, but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to our own BS documentation if this goes ahead. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 18:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::The logic of having a semi-competing public wiki hosted on the same server wasn't really the concern for me. My concern was whether it had permission to be there and if it does then that's fine. There's not really any notes about what the wiki is for, or how it intends to avoid duplicity with existing content here (unless of course it intends to duplicate sections of the main wiki). This may all be due to it being in its infancy, but someone must surely have anticipated the anxiety such a wiki would create upon its creation and sought to allay any concerns by being open and upfront about its existence. The users on this wiki have always been concerned about the use of our materials without proper attribution or permission, and with good cause, so to see a new wiki using our name with no apparent endorsement was very concerning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::From the BS team's perspective, the draw for having a separate wiki over making use of Tes5Mod space was so that they had direct administrative control over it and were not bound by any of the UESP restrictions on what is actually allowed in modspace. The draw for them being hosted on the UESP server was ''intended'' to be to foster cross-cooperation between the two wikis; they get a spot on the server of a well-respected Elder Scrolls fansite, we get links from them for documentation of the primary Skyrim gameplay aspects, which they then don't need to duplicate as they are mostly unchanged, and it frees us from having to consider how to document Beyond Skyrim in the '''Depth over Breadth''' category because we know there's a dedicated wiki specifically for that purpose.

::::::For the end user, the result is essentially the same; if they're here looking for Beyond Skyrim, they'll start off at either [[General:Beyond Skyrim]] or a root page in Tes5Mod (yet to be created). From there, if we have all the content ourselves, they will either end up navigating through numerous subpages of that one Tes5Mod root page, or if we link to the BS wiki, they'll be navigating through the pages there. As long as they can find what they're looking for, I don't really think they'll care whether it says "UESPWiki" or "Beyond Skyrim Wiki" at the top. Beyond that, anyone who enters the BS wiki from other entry points, such as the official BS website, would see the close relationship with UESP and may then be inclined to visit us as well. If they were off on their own, that connection wouldn't be there.

::::::Being labelled as the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" rather than hidden away as the n'th mod covered by UESP also allows them some legitimacy, as I have always believed that there is less support for the creation of unofficial wikis on a topic if a specific community has a designated official one. I would say therefore that the UESP being the hosts of the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" shouldn't really be considered a detriment to us. The fact that Beyond Skyrim even considered the option of having UESP host their official wiki should speak volumes about how much the wider Elder Scrolls community values us as an Elder Scrolls site, and the fact that UESP/Dave agreed to host their official wiki was certainly met with a very positive reception when it was announced to the Beyond Skyrim team.

::::::So with that in mind, I would like to suggest that we act like the gracious hosts that I thought we were, and we show support for the Beyond Skyrim team and their official wiki. Beyond Skyrim needs to be documented, and they have somewhere for that to be done. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the wiki's URL is broken, and beyondskyrim.uesp.net is not intended. For all technical domain purposes, it is supposed to be wiki.beyondskyrim.org, but the certification isn't ready. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The initial talk page I linked to above has been deleted, so I suppose this discussion will have to happen UESP-side (as it should have from the start). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

: It might be worth mentioning that the uesp wiki will also have pages on us just like there are for Tamriel Rebuilt (our community was founded via Tamriel rebuilt members). The fact that the url for this new wiki contains uesp is temporary and because I haven't bought the certificates yet to use the wiki.beyondskyrim.org and devwiki.beyondskyrim.org url. {{uns|Meliodas|23:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)}}

:: So I've discussed the purpose of the public BS wiki with Meliodas at length and it doesn't appear to have very much overlap at all with our potential coverage. I'd therefore like to suggest that we limit our coverage to the released mods (currently only Bruma), which is exactly how we handle TR releases. The BS wiki is much larger in scope, and in hindsight I realise it was unfair to label it as competition since its focus is inherently different. Does this work for everyone? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

::: Sounds good to me! Seems I may have misinterpreted the purpose of the public BS wiki all along. Or perhaps its true purpose was yet to be decided, and with the hype of the Bruma release I was rushing to a conclusion that was not ready to be reached. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Agreed! It seems we have come to a solution that is good for all involved parties. --[[User:Meliodas|Meliodas]] ([[User talk:Meliodas|talk]]) 01:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach PTS ==

A little late on this update since I just got back from vacation...fortunately it is a smaller content DLC.

:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15pts Files] -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

: Awesome! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Namespace Proposal ==

If we are to be documenting the content of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]], starting with the release of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Bruma|Beyond Skyrim: Bruma]] which just came out, I think it would be beneficial to set up some pseudo-namespaces for that information, similar to what was done with [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]]. A slight difference in format here is that each province is being developed as a separate mod, unlike TR3 where everything is part of the same one, so ideally we will need pseudo-namespaces for each one of those. Right now though, all that is released is Bruma, which is part of the Cyrodiil province. So following the layout of [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] (thanks for the link, RH), I would like to propose a namespace for [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil]]:

<pre>
# NS_BASE ; NS_ID ; NS_PARENT ; NS_NAME ; NS_MAINPAGE ;
Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; BS5C ; Skyrim ; Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ;

NS_CATEGORY ; NS_TRAIL
Tes5Mod-Beyond Skyrim-Cyrodiil ; [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]
</pre>

Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:I'm not sure we need to create pseudo-namespaces for every partial release of Beyond Skyrim, particularly if we are not going to document it to the same extent as Tamriel Rebuilt due to it having its own wiki for that level of detail. I don't see any reason not to set this up at least for at least Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm leaning towards Silencer's thinking at the moment, but a lot depends on just how much documentation you're expecting, and how you intend to organize it. It makes a lot of sense to have everything under a single pseudo-namespace of Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim, so you can have parent-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Main</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Places</tt>) as well as sub-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>). But if there really isn't a need for parent-project pages, then that's just going to lead to a page structure that's all sub-project pages anyway (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Black Marsh/Places</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>), and having each different subspace defined might make more sense in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::The province mods are completely separate, just like the games in the Elder Scrolls series itself. Beyond Skyrim is an umbrella, not a project in its own right, and each mod will have its own partial releases (which is why all links from BS: Bruma already go to pages under BS: Cyrodiil). I think that format would indeed all be double-sub pages, because there would be no need for a BS/Places (if it existed, it would be ''very'' long). The level of detail we should be documenting here is pretty much the same as what we have for Tamriel Rebuilt; quests, places, NPCs, and all gameplay stuff. Conversely, the Beyond Skyrim wiki is the equivalent of lorespace, not a gamespace, and that's the sort of stuff we don't have for TR, because the depths of TR lore are on their own website at the [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/tr-handbook TR Handbook]. For a parallel, if we were to ever document the [http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/44922/? Province: Cyrodiil] mod for Morrowind, we would likely do that with a "Province: Cyrodiil" pseudospace, not a "Project Tamriel" pseudospace, because PC is a mod in its own right despite being under the PT banner. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Enodoc's suggestion sounds sensible to me: separate mods, separate pseudo-namespaces. "Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil/Places" is a bit of a mouthful but it works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that makes sense then. I just finished implementing it. Let me know if there are any issues. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spambot? ==

Not quite sure what to do with [[Special:Contributions/122.173.186.102|this IP]]. It added a corporate LinkedIn link but reverted it. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 05:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

:It's still spam, but perhaps a less severe penalty, maybe just a warning (something for future reference to know that IP has spammed before if the next move is done). Also remove the edits from public view as most spam and vandalism is these days. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Following the link provided, this company is very obviously going to be aware of social media and how it works, so my feeling is that it's a sneaky type of advertising. They know the change will be looked at, even if it's reverted. For that reason alone, I'd suggest revision deletion, and otherwise treat it like any other spammer. If it's only a one-off occurrence, there's not much point in blocking the IP, but we should keep our eyes open for similar behaviour in the near future, whether from that IP or another IP/account. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 16:09, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Account Creation Spam ==

Recently, bots or users have been making it through our captcha check and creating numerous new user accounts. Over the course of the day today, I've tried tweaking the captcha several times, starting with minor changes to the algorithm, then getting a bit more elaborate this last time. Each time, it has been followed within moments by what appear to be new random accounts. This suggests that either there's human involvement in the creations or that the bot is very broad ranging and won't be deterred short of a major change in approach. I could change to a different style of question captcha, or a different captcha completely, but if it's an actual human creating these accounts, that would be a waste of time.

For those who are wondering, they're all coming from completely different IP addresses, and most are using different naming styles, so neither blocking nor title-blocking will be terribly effective. As someone pointed out on the wiki, it's possible that some of these are non-editing accounts that are intended only to use the ESO Build Editor or just to save settings, but I'm not sure that would account for the number of accounts we're seeing, and some of the names seem really spammy in nature. It's hard to say with absolute certainty, though.

In the short term, there's not much to be done that I haven't already. In the long term, however, there are a few potential options, though most have some kind of problem associated with them:
# Put up with it, knowing a vandal could use these accounts to launch a bot attack from multiple accounts at once or in quick succession, potentially becoming a distributed denial-of-service attack (which has never happened, so not likely a big threat). In terms of not locking out legitimate users, this is probably the safest option.
# Require patroller/admin creation of all new accounts. This has several issues, the biggest being that either a communal e-mail box would have to be maintained for these applications, or some other simple mechanism of applying would have to be created. It's also possible that spammer(s) would just continue a variation of what they're doing now, and simply flood the system with requests.
# Create an extension to delete the accounts if they go completely unused and aren't logged into for X days. MediaWiki wasn't really designed with the idea of deleting users, though it is possible. The danger is that a bug in the program could delete legitimate data. Plus, it would require Dave or I to program it in the first place, since I don't see any extension that would work on a large-scale basis. (The only one I found is intended to completely wipe a single user from the database within certain limitations.)
# Switch login/account creation systems completely. The current recommended method is [http://openid.net/what-is-openid/ OpenID], which has a MediaWiki [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenID|extension]] available. That would limit a spammer's ability to create accounts based on having OpenID accounts available, but then it also requires that a real user have an OpenID account. Most do, mind you, whether they realize it or not, since it's linked with numerous common services like Google and Facebook. Of course, that's still potentially prone to abuse, depending on the spammer's ability to get around any given service's account-spam prevention. This would be entirely up to Dave to install, and may cost money...it wasn't entirely clear.

In the past, we've generally gone for option #1, but given the complaints on Discord about the wave of new user accounts, I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion again. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

:Given the relative lack of vandalism or spam by new user accounts I would be very wary of escalating a problem that doesn't ''appear'' to exist. Besides today I have not seen a huge amount (certainly not above "normal" numbers) of new accounts that would be worrying, but I know that a significant percentage of these accounts are by spam-bots that are simply getting blocked by the abuse filter, so do not ''appear'' to be what they are. As far as I can tell, we are also one of the cleanest open wikis on the net, as we've always had diligent recent changes monitors. The recent extreme vandalism is also very very rare, and we won't see the like for a long time once we are past it, certainly not enough to make me think there was something wrong with our account making process (well besides not having blocked the username "Administrator" from use). I thought the whole think was rather contained in nature, with our new Blockers having a hand in stemming the abuse. Option 2 for me is a non-starter, I think the amount of requests would far outweigh the capability of looking at and deciding the merits of them all, plus it removes the idea that we have an "open" wiki, because even if you still didn't need to log in to edit, you would need our "permission" to "join". Option 3 should be left alone too. The reason mediawiki chooses not to allow deletion is because every edit is tied to an account/IP, and deleting them means that the edit no longer has verifiability. While this is not the intention of such a program, the possibility should be locked in a vat of toxic waste and tossed into the Sun. There are problems associated with mass-deletion of vandalism from the history of pages (namely proof of the vandalism), and there will be even more problems with deletion of accounts where there is no proof of maliciousness. I just don't like Option 4, as it ties us to another site/group. It also appears that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo have abandoned it, with the only major user being PayPal. I just don't like the idea of requiring someone to have an account on another site in order to join here, though perhaps we should think of allowing people on Facebook and Google+ to associate their accounts here, and/or have the ''choice'' to use them to log in here.
:The last option still wants to improve our creation process, but it's hard to see how with any captcha as they are always vulnerable to bots. The latest method is two-factor authentication using a phone. This, as far as I can tell, requires human interaction. Required two-factor authentication either via email or phone, is one step that doesn't infringe on our openness, as the likelihood of a potential user not having one or the other is probably zero. If at all possible we could also incentivise it by reducing the time and/or amount of edits required before gaining full freedoms to edit. PS, no idea if that would affect account creation by logged in users, but obviously try to avoid it if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just to clarify, for option #3, I was referring to accounts that have no edit history whatsoever, including any deleted edits or abuse history. Also, even though it isn't required to edit, e-mail verification is already being done by the bots in many cases. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach (Update 15) Release ==

The usual file/data updates for HOTR DLC will be posted below:

:* uespLog Addon -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.20!]]
:* Achievements -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated!]
:* Champion Points -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php Updated!]
:* Skills and Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php Updated!] and double-checked
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Maps -- Nothing to update.
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15/ Uploaded!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done!]
:* Books -- Done! (upload in files and updated database)

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 13:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Is there a process for requesting the <samp>autopatrolled</samp> bit? I do a lot of typo fixing and Style Guide compliance edits, and I think the minor edit stream is annoying to patrollers. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:The process is documented at [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled Users]]. The short of it is: those with patroller permissions <s>get tired of patrolling your edits</s> notice that your edits are usually good, and nominate you to become autopatrolled. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Noted. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 21:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Mine arent fully good yet, at least not until I learn all the differences in templates/procedure. (So apologies to the patrollers in the meantime. I [[Special:Contributions/Timeoin|tend to post a lot]]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:10, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

== Site issues ==

Noticing some major issues this morning - Did we upgrade the wiki software recently or something? All of the sidebar stuff is gone, and I can no longer upload images - also the image upload page no longer lists the licenses in the licensing drop box. In addition, the UESP-specific options that usually appear below the edit window are also gone. Seems like all hidden site pages have been completely reset to defaults. The site would not let me post edits due to "loss of session data", and suggested logging out and back in, and when I did so, it would not let me log back in, claiming I had cookies disabled, which I do not. This occurs on both of my computers. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? - [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 13:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

:Okay, not sure if somebody did something, but a couple hours later, it seems to be working again. Not sure what was up with that... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 15:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::The site was down two Saturdays ago (the 19th August) in the morning, but completely down, not just not displaying properly. Not sure if its relevant but the coincidental timing is there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::: Daveh said on Discord it was due to memcached crashing every Saturday morning. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City PTS ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS. This update may take longer for me since I'm dealing with a newborn most hours of the day so if you're looking for something in particular just let me know.

:* uespLog Addon -- Seems to be working fine on PTS so far.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps - Done! I've added a link to Clockwork city from the base Mundus map but all other locations still need to be added.
:* Skills -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

:Hey Dave, the uploaded icons.zip appears to be only about 2/3 complete. Some folders are missing and it's ~70MB instead of the usual ~90MB. Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks...fixed! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== User Rename ==

Renamed Nephmir to [[User:Starkiller131|Starkiller131]] per their request. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Gift Brainstorming ==

Every year, usually around Christmas time, I like to give out an ES/UESP related gift to thank the site's contributors and fans. For example, last year we did the Tamriel map posters. In deciding what to do this and following years I'm looking for suggestions on what we could do. For now don't worry about the details too much and let your imaginations run wild. For some things there are potential issues like cost, shipping, and licensing issues but those can be dealt with once a gift project is actually chosen and started.

Some of my ideas to start with:

:* '''Coins''' -- I had some coins made for a summer camp project a few years ago and they are relatively easy/cheap with many different construction options.
:* '''Maps''' -- I love maps although since we did one last year there's no rush in doing another one. If we ever do another map I'd like to commission an artist to have a custom one drawn up for us.
:* '''UESP Merchandise''' -- Take just about anything from [http://vistaprint.ca VistaPrint] or similar sites with a UESP logo.
:* '''Books''' -- A more work intensive project but might be nice to see some of the better UESP pages/lore/art in a actual bound book.
:* '''3D Printing''' -- You can do a lot with 3D printing lately using models from games including character models or world spaces. Downside is that this is complex and relatively costly.
:* '''Replicas/Figurines''' -- The minimum order for a custom model is relatively low and within the realm of possibility. Licensing would be the main issue.
:* '''Posters''' -- You could make a poster of just about anything (ex: a nice game screenshot, lore articles, etc...).
:* '''Charity''' -- I like to give a little to charity each year when we can. Past recipients include World Vision, Charity: Water, and Child's Play. This would be in addition to the fan gift.

Looking forward to some of your ideas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

::The UESP Merchandise caught my eye, but its hard to see what would work. A mouse pad or t-shirt would not suit everyone, but perhaps a plate or glass or mug. I think my muffins would benefit in taste sitting on a plate with the logo. Another idea popped in my head when browsing vistaprint; a calendar. There are a couple of versions of the Tamriel calendar to pick from, and then pick 12 of our featured images to use for the months. You could keep it generic by leaving off the weekdays and just starting each on the first, or you could use next years dates to make it more usable. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Here is a collection of community comments I got on this:
:::*I like the idea of coins
:::*Ooh, what a really kind idea. I like the sound of coins too.
:::*I like coins
:::*Comission for a map would be really cool (I am still sad I didn't get one last time :frowning: )
:::*Illustrations and maps are neat
:::*Charity one is the best one
:::*I like the idea of posters, maps and figurines myself
:::*Coins or UESP merchandise. Seriously. I would LOVE a shirt with the UESP logo on it
:::*I also like the idea of coins
:::*I vote for shirts for the best idea now
:::*Maps are pretty gosh darn cool. You can put them on your wall and stuff. Coins are metal. It is harder to put them on walls. If this is a contest of wall-put-ability, I think maps win.
:::*I think artwork that feels like in-game product would be neat. Think a traveler's sketchbook with ink illustrations of creatures and whatnot
:::*Yeah kinda want one of those maps but maybe of all of Tamriel
:::*You know those life sized cardboard cut outs of LotR characters. Lets get those for Shadowscales. Scare the shit out of you whenever you enter your room and there is a shadow of an Argonian standing in the corner.
:::*3D Printing in-game models sounds awesome!
:::*I still like maps. Posters of iconic Vistas are cool too.
:::*As for charity. You go through TES able to kill the wildlife knowing that another will spawn... And another... And another... AND A-BLOODY-NOTHER!! Anyway, this isn't the case for the real world. Help give species a chance to up their spawn chances. As someone studying the animal sciences, I'd say the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust, as they're responsible for saving more species than any other organisation and training people in doing likewise.
:::*i think a picture of all the main races with a chunk of the province they're from behind them could make for a cool poster
:::*I would enjoy having an actual leather bound copy of an Elder Scrolls book. I may have to make one some day.
:::*like the idea of a figurine, Pelinal Whitestrake maybe?
:::*Coins and/or other in-universe memorabilia gets my vote
:::*I would adore some Septims.
:::*i wanted a big ass tamriel map for my wall last year, and i didnt got one. i even wanted to buy something like this but... no luck. maybe this year i can. soooo.. i will go with the map thing. Some septims would be nice too, tho.
:::--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I like the idea of UESP-branded wearables or coffee mugs. Wearables do have the issue of sizing and such that have to be accounted for, where mugs are fairly universal, so there's that to consider if you go for merchandise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::*I love and adore the idea of coins. The various coins which Bethesda and/or ZOS have produced to promote the various games are now collectors' items. I think we should avoid maps, because we Did That Last Year. The UESP Discord logo would look great on one side of a coin, with... I dunno, the head of Martin Septim on the back :P (Or Hermaeus-Mora, as the Guardian of Knowledge?) Can you also get writing along the edge? If so, UNOFFICIAL ELDER SCROLLS PAGES 2017 should go there :)
:::::*I would also support the idea of UESP merchandise, but I think this should be for us to purchase ourselves, e.g. through Spreadshirt. This would not make any money for the UESP, but would at least break even. In this way, we could get them in custom colours, with our UESP affiliation on. e.g. "UESP Wiki Admin" / "UESP Wiki Editor" / "UESP Forums Moderator" / "UESP Discord Admin" / "UESP Guildmaster" / "UESP Guild Officer" / "UESP Guild Member", etc. People with multiple affiliations could either position all of the text using Spreadshirt's layout tool, or pick their favourite one.
:::::*Mugs are also great, but would be super-expensive to post, even within Canada. Again, I think they should be for users to purchase themselves. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 08:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Minor Issue (Resolved) ==

As Alarra recently corrected [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Merdyndril&curid=167488&diff=1681627&oldid=1681624 here], there as a circumstance whereby they were attributed as being the author of [[ON:Message to Jena|Message to Jena]]. (See: [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Message_to_Jena&oldid=1681625 here]). The problem was that not only was it wrong, its wrong nowhere else. Except [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena right here]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
:An addendum, for clarity: there is little chance this was accidental. [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena?oldid=1894979 this was the date their page was created]. The Maulborn Cultist, [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Merdyndril?oldid=2264203 was not created until a year after]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 08:18, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::While it's likely that you're correct, this particular instance seems trivial. A note will, after all, be pretty much the same from one wiki to the next. It isn't like they copied an entire dungeon walkthrough wholesale, or used our images or what have you, at least not in this instance. For more significant instances, I believe Dave said he prefers to handle these issues himself, so I'd suggest e-mailing him or flagging him down on Discord. That policy may be out of date, though. If he refers you back to us, Atvelonis and I have spoken on occasion, so I'm happy to bring any concerns up with him if needed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::: Just to clarify Timeoin... you're complaining that Wikia copied the ''links'' of a UESP book page page on their own site's book page... back in 2015 (when you were still an admin over there and could have checked the page for plagiarism before you edited it).

::: Is this really of note for the AN board? Exactly what are you looking to achieve?

::: What I find odd is that when we were both admins on Wikia, you very rarely spoke up about the vast amounts of actual UESP plagiarism that was taking place there. I don't recall you ever reverting UESP content. It was left to the other admins to deal with. So why is it a concern now? You speak to Atvelonis on Discord, would it not make more sense to take it up with him?

::: I don't wish to start any drama, but you're clearly bitter about what happened to you over there. Which is why you're taking any opportunity get some sort of revenge. Be it the constant badmouthing, anonymous editing over there or threads like this. Its not healthy. Take it from someone who was in the same boat, but in a '''much''' worse position than you was - you need to move on. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::::Since I keeping getting pinged on Discord, here are my thoughts on the matter. Even if the UESP was the source of the mistake on Wikia, which is possible, I don't think that arguing over such a minuscule point is worth anyone's time. As others have stated above, it's just a link, and a pretty old one too. My inclination here would be to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]: it's entirely possible that same authorial assumption was made independently by users on both sites. Users add plagiarized UESP content to Wikia all the time, and I make an effort to catch this early on, especially when it comes to images. If you find something that is genuinely worth reporting, by all means inform me of it, but I don't think that being this pedantic helps anyone. —[[User:Atvelonis|Atvelonis]] ([[User talk:Atvelonis|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::::: I agree with Jimeeee. I apologise wholeheartedly. Also - I should not have pinged you, Atvelonis, and will not do so again. So ... yeah, please consider this closed? (Changed the header too - since that helps ''noone'') [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 17:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

== Move Request ==

Hello. Could an admin please move {{Deleted|Captain Velyna}} to [[Online:Captain Velya|Captain Velya]]? Velya is the proper in-game name. (Evidence: ESO Log Data). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 06:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:Could someone please also move {{deleted|ON:Domihaus (set)}} to [[ON:Domihaus|Domihaus]]? They are the same page. Thanks :) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 10:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

::I've merged Timeoin's second request because I want to make a general request that an admin start merging and deleting some pages that have been marked so. These actions can only be done by an admin, and there are a lot of duplicate pages sitting idle, as well as merge requests that haven't been done yet. Not doing these things is starting to cause a serious backlog of follow up actions, links to the wrong duplicate page appearing, as well as the confusion that is given by having empty pages being filled in when the information already exists elsewhere. There are dozens more pages I have identified as needing deleted, and have put off marking them so as to make it easier for an admin to do each page properly without knowing there are over 100 more pages marked for deletion (which there are). [[:Category:Marked for Deletion]], [[:Category:To Be Merged]]. PS A particular bugbear on merges for me is the Desolate Mine place and quest, marked for renaming by Legoless more than 2 years ago with no logical or given objection to it happening, yet no action taken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:11, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Bugbear slain. I started on the pages marked for deletion the other day, but that'll definitely take some time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Username Usurping ==

There was an account called "Zenith" made in 2009, with no contributions, and I was wondering whether I could usurp that username for a UESP account. {{unsigned|76.66.92.8|00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)}}
:Also worth noting is that this request was originally made on our Discord channel, where this user is already known as Zenith to the majority of the people on the server. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::I confirmed that the user hasn't logged in since 2009 and has no edit history, so I've gone ahead and renamed them. You may now create an account as Zenith. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City (Update 16) ==

Another ESO DLC is out today and so the usual round of updates:

:* uespLog -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.31]]! (1.31 has bug fix for guild store purchase bug)
:* Achievements --[http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated]! (new icons still need to be uploaded)
:* Skills -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills Updated]!
:* Skill Coeffients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php Done] (and checked)
:* Champion Points -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoCps Updated]!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16/ Uploaded]!
:* Books -- Done! (book text uploaded and updated in database)
:* Maps -- Done! (4 maps updated, still working on adding all locations)
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done]!
:* Items -- Done!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Translating Team for Italy ==

My friends and me would love to start translating UESP in italian.
We're good at english and we can write in HTML. We're 5 or 6 at the moment, but we can recruit more people with our skills.
I'm opening this discussion for everyone who's willing to take part in our project.
[[User:Undriel|Undriel]] ([[User talk:Undriel|talk]]) 00:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Count on me! [[User:Daffodill|Daffodill]] ([[User talk:Daffodill|talk]]) 01:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::I'd be happy to work on the italian translation [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 01:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::It sounds interesting [[User:Fenerevar|Fenerevar]] ([[User talk:Fenerevar|talk]]) 10:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm in. [[User:CurseMyName|CurseMyName]] ([[User talk:CurseMyName|talk]]) 11:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} There are no official steps to creating a translation project (the Portuguese one was a test) but unless there are any objections from admins I'll set it up in a few days once I've done most of the ESO updates from the latest DLC. Is there one person who is willing/able to take the lead/admin position for the project? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Thank you a lot. If the translation project will be approved I'll gladly take the admin position [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 10:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)LadyLigeia

{{od}} The Italian UESPWiki has been setup at [http://it.uesp.net/wiki/Pagina_principale it.uesp.net]...hopefully you can forgive the delay as I was focussed on some ESO work backlog last week. I've imported the MediaWiki and Template namespaces but nothing else at the moment. If you run into any issues on the new site let me know here or poke me at [mailto:dave@uesp.net dave@uesp.net]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

== Request for revocation of account rights. ==

After thinking over my ultimate place in the universe for a long, hard while, I've decided that this evening I'm ready to return to the UESPWiki and work on some of Jeancey's Morrowind Overhaul Project and give some love to my favorite game. I've also decided to do it without the pressure that I've always felt by being an active and regular member of staff, and I want to get back to just editing and enjoying myself.

After many long months of thinking about it on a self-imposed break, I've decided that I want to voluntarily relinquish all elevated user rights currently on my account, including my patroller rights, blocker rights, and any others that may exist that I've forgotten exist.

I am aware that, should I want them, I'll have to be renominated and be put up to a community vote again, but for the foreseeable future, I'm not at all interested in anything to do with them and I ask that an administrator handle this request at their first convenient moment, in accordance with my wishes.

Many thanks, -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 18:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Given that Damon has already qualified as a Patroller, I'd suggest that in conjunction with this request, we grant him autopatrolled status. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:: I've removed your Patroller and Blocker rights, Damon. I would support autopatrolled status if someone wants to make the [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled_Users#Nominations|nomination]]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I'll go ahead and do that, if Damon doesn't object. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

== 2018 Fan Gift ==

Christmas and the new year is quickly coming and I've been thinking about what to do for the UESP fan gift this year. I like the suggestion of a calendar made in the previous gift suggestion topic and am leaning strongly in that direction.

:* 2018 Year Calender
:* Can use Tamriel names for months and weekdays (or perhaps in addition to real names?)
:* Include both real and Tamriel holidays (make it obvious which is which?)
:* Artwork Could Be:
::* Fan Created
::* Screenshots
::* Composite (made up of Bethesda copyrighted images and others)
:: I'd rather stay away from using Bethesda original artwork to avoid the legal issues and would prefer the first 2 if we had the option.

Assuming people think this is a good idea I'd like to get started on choosing the 13 pieces of artwork for the calendar (12 months + title page) and the calendar details. Note that assuming we do a 10x17" wall calendar the artwork would have to be of reasonable size/quality.

Time flies so if we could decide on everything by the end of November that would permit printing by the start of December and hopefully shipping before Christmas. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

:What if the images were a selection of the UESP's Featured Images, where possible? We can throw together a quick vote of which ones look cooler for any particular month or season to match the feel of that time. Or move on to not-FI images if needed. Throw something [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|like this]] in for October and Halloween, for instance? Also, I would want the calendar to be completely Tamrielic, no Earthly times on it! -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 04:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, that's a good idea. I assume most (all?) of the Featured Images are screenshots correct? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Another quick thought...it may be a good idea to have several images per month composited together, especially if some of them are lower resolution. For example, we could group 3/4/5 Halloween related images for the month of October. So more options for each month would be a good thing. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've gone through the FI's and picked some that I think a more identifiable with the seasons/events. This is not a comprehensive list, a lot of the pure NPC/creature ones I left out as they are focused on that subject alone.

Winter 5: [[:File:SR-npc-Brelyna Maryon 03.jpg|Frost Atronach being summoned]], [[:File:SR-interior-Deepwood Redoubt 02.jpg|snow in a cave]], [[:File:DB-place-Edla's House.jpg|snow on a house]], [[:File:SR-creature-Ice Wraith.jpg|ice wraith with the moon over snowy mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-Alduin's Bane 02.jpg|dragons fighting on a snowy mountain]]

Spring 10: [[:File:ON-quest-The One That Got Away 02.jpg|sunrise over a lake]], [[:File:SR-place-Solitude.jpg|Solitude on a nice day]],
[[:File:ON-place-Alessia Bridge.jpg|sunny day (trees look autumny though)]], [[:File:ON-quest-Daughter of Seamount 02.jpg|sunny and cloudy day]], [[:File:SR-place-Druadach Mountains.jpg|the misty mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-The Cursed Tribe 02.jpg|a giant throwing a tantrum near some Orcs]], [[:File:SI-place-Mount Sheogorath Summit.jpg|colourful countryside]], [[:File:OB-quest-Alteration Training.jpg|bright day over a lake]], [[:File:MW-place-Lake Masobi.jpg|misty day over a lake]], [[:File:OB-quest-A Brush with Death 02.jpg|vivid trolls]]

Easter, only 1: [[:File:OB-quest-Bear Season.jpg|the anti-Easter message (bears eat sheep)]]

Summer 5: [[:File:MW-place-Ghostfence.jpg|the dust near Ghostfence]], [[:File:ON-place-Weeping Giant.jpg|stone giant taking a nap]], [[:File:ON-place-Upper Craglorn.jpg|a sunny river]], [[:File:OB-quest-Go Fish.jpg|a fish with big teeth on a sunny day]], [[:File:MW-place-Nchuleftingth.jpg|A sunny day over Nchuleftingth]]

Autumn 5: [[:File:ON-place-Windmill (Davon's Watch).jpg|windmill with moons between spokes]], [[:File:SR-quest-Dawnguard (quest).jpg|vampires with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:SR-quest-Robber's Gorge.jpg|bandits with the aurora borealis and a moon]], [[:File:SR-place-Shrine of Azura 02.jpg|Azura's statue with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:OB-quest-Peryite.jpg|Peryite's statue at night]]

Halloween 4: [[:File:SR-npc-Ancano 08.jpg|some eerie magical swirls]], [[:File:ON-quest-A Ghost from the Past 04.jpg|Sithis]], [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|werewolf with both moons]], [[:File:DB-quest-Clean Sweep.jpg|ash spawn crawling out of the ground in a tomb]]

A lot of the spring/summer ones could be one or the other. February could use a winter or a springy one. Halloween is the only event that has decent representation as the games lend themselves well to that "scary" theme. A Christmas or Easter one might need to be sourced from our other images. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

[[Image:2018_Calender_Month_Test_1.jpg|240px|right]]
:Great! Another thought of image materials are the various high-quality screenshots that people take of Skyrim and ESO with various mods/graphical enhancements. These would require the permission of the screenshot owner. I'll see if I can track down some good ones and get permission.
: I've made a very quick/initial drawing of a calendar page as I envisioned it. It is still very rough but feedback is wanted sooner rather than later. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. I could advertise it on social media and add "Submit high quality screenshots to us to use in the calendar" to possibly get some nice ones sent to us. If we were to say, offer anyone we used an image from a copy of the calendar, we could probably get a few. Would you be okay with that? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:32, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I thought the license for screenshots gave the UESP the copyright, "the copyright for this particular composition is held by UESP", while giving Bethesda copyright on the components. Like any edit, images have always been treated as belonging to the wiki once uploaded, for us to use as and where we think suitable. Plus, even for Skyrim, a lot of image takers are no longer active. AKB's proposal seems good, at most you'd be giving out 12 images to non-UESP people, and all of them could be evaluated for use on the wiki itself even if they fail to get used in the calendar. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::::re: AKB's suggestion of getting screenshots from fans, I was thinking the same thing so go ahead and see what people can send us. Regarding the SS permission I was referring to images found outside of the UESP. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 

::::Another more refined sample: [[Image:2018_Calendar_Sample_3.png|240px|right]]
:::::* Tried to give it a more lore/medieval look with parchment background and imperfect grid lines.
:::::* Added site logo,
:::::* Originally I was thinking of having text box with the some text from the UESP's relevant article. Unsure if that is too much or better to go with just a title/page link or perhaps nothing at all.
:::: Keep the feedback, ideas, and more pictures coming! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

 
::::: Dave, I like the parchment background with UESP logo, but with the white squares. I'd mock one up if I was on my Mac (which has Photoshop), but all I have on this PC is Paint. My reasoning is that I love the UESP "branding", however a lot of people need to write on their calendars and this is easier to do with a white background. Also, the imperfect grid lines will make a lot of us twitch! Thus I feel that parchment background with UESP logo but a white calendar grid section is the best compromise. I would like a title to each picture - including which game it is from - but I don't feel we need a huge box explaining what it is, let alone a wiki URL which is difficult to type. If the wiki's search function is working properly, people will be able to look up "Brelyna Maryon" and "Frost Atronach" easily enough :) [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 22:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: A couple more image suggestions:
::::::Spring: [[:File:SR-creature-Birds.jpg|Skyrim birds]], [[:File:RG-place-Shrine of Morwha.jpg|Shrine of Morwha (mother goddess)]]
::::::Autumn: [[:File:OB-quest-Information at a Price.jpg|Skingrad]], [[:File:OB-quest-Azani Blackheart 3.jpg|Ayleid ruins]]
::::::Winter: [[:File:ON-place-The Black Forge.jpg|Coldharbour]]
::::::—[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::A more refined draft with some of the suggestions implemented. [[Image:UESP Fan Gift 2018 - Month Test 4.jpg|240px|right]]
:::::::Barring any suggestions that require large changes I'd like to finalize the overall design and move to choosing the month images. There is also the question of exactly what holidays to include:
::::::::* All ES lore holidays
::::::::* Only Major ES lore holidays
::::::::* Real world American/Canadian holidays
::::::::* Other real world holidays
::::::: -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 
::::::::I'm against the inclusion of real-world holidays, since we don't knowfrom which country the winners will be. I like the style, however -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 20:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I agree with Sarthes to exclude real world holidays. I still like a small lore explanation on the calender like in the second mock-up, but maybe that will distact too much from the image. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

: The first draft of the calendar is available at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft1.pdf'''. Please review it and put any comments here.
:* There were a lot of great images submitted and it was hard to pick and choose just 13 of them. If you feel an image doesn't fit well let me know and we can easily find another one.
:* Spelling, grammar and lore corrections are welcome (I've already spotted a couple myself).
:* Better or more accurate descriptions for some of the images would be good. I just guessed at some of the locations. In particular:
:::* January - Where is this?
:::* February - Where is this?
:::* April - Dragon names?
:::* July - Where is this?
:::* August - Where is this?
:::* September - Better caption?
:::* October - Where is this?
:Right now I'm aiming to print 250 of them and mail them out like the maps last year. Now is a good time for people to start thinking about how they wish to distribute them. The more I can get mailed out in December the better! I also don't want as many left over at the end as the maps last year...I still have about 100 maps that can be sent out if people want them. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::January and July look like Falkreath hold to me, and part of the same general area, but can't pin it down. The dragons in April look like Alduin at the Throat of the World. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that mods are involved there, as there are no dragons that white (the frost dragon is white but with large dark coloured parts), and it's breathing fire which a frost dragon shouldn't do. I don't think that means it should be excluded though, but I can see a red sword in the lower right sky. September, it looks indoors, so it could be a frustrated mage trying to light a hearth. October is Heartwood Mill in the Rift, from Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

:::January is somewhere near [[Skyrim:Evergreen Grove|Evergreen Grove]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-51184|y=-61784}}. February is [[Online:Razak's Wheel|Razak's Wheel]], I think. April is [[Skyrim:Alduin|Alduin]] and [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax|Paarthurnax]] fighting at the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]]. That red dagger is a result of a spell I created. If it looks out-of-place, it can be photoshopped away. July is [[Skyrim:Lake Ilinalta|Lake Ilinalta]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-1942|y=-53920}}. August is likely to be [[Online:Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)|Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)]]. I highly suspect October to be [[Skyrim:Half-Moon Mill|Half-Moon Mill]].
:::Are the Summoning Days really specific to the Daggerfall City-State? I always thought they were the same for all of Nirn. Also, the Gauntlet at Sun's Dusk 2nd is also Boethiah's Summoning Day. Hogithum at First Seed 21st is Azura's. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! For the summoning days I believe they were only actually used in the Daggerfall game but like you say are probably Tamriel wide. We can either omit them entirely or I can add them as another type/color holiday to make it easier to fit in with the other holidays you mentioned (I might try that and see how it looks). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::With SarthesArai's help, I found the exact location January was taken from, and I can confirm that his description and coordinates are correct. July is also Ilinalta, though the coordinates given are a bit off. I used {{Map Link|x=-18000|y=-53000|zoom=16|ns=Skyrim}}. I also double-checked in the game and October is definitely [[Skyrim:Heartwood Mill|Heartwood Mill]], as Silencer suggested. Are there any other Skyrim locations that need double-checked? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've made all the suggested changes with the only outstanding location is February...I don't think it is Razak's Wheel as I went all over and couldn't find the view. I'm pretty sure it is a view to an unreachable location in a delve somewhere but I can't quite remember it. If I can verify the location in the next day or so I'll upload an updated draft of the calendar. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:Correction: It's Klathzgar, near the Skyshard, looking outside the playable area. Thanks to [[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer]] for actually finding it. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

::That's it! I asked on the ESO sub-reddit and someone answered pretty fast as well. I'll get an updated draft up tomorrow. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:::The latest calendar draft is up at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft3.pdf'''. Unless there are other changes/corrections to make I'll be submitting it for printing in a few days. I'll post another topic regarding the distribution of calendars (it will be the same as the map poster last year). As a last minute update I added the birthsigns to each month (they can be easily removed if people think they don't fit well). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I like the birthsigns, but I think they might fit better with the month name, instead of on one of the calendar squares (and then they would be in the same spot for each month). --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 17:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::Another way would be to have the birthsign image as a background, though only as a faint outline, or even just the constellation. I don't think that would take too much away from the desired white background boxes for writing in. Faldar's Tooth doesn't really help place Heartwood Mill, "on the shore of Lake Honrich" or "near Riften" might be better. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Yah, I didn't like the location of the birthsigns either so I've tried moving them up to the title line which looks a lot better I think. See '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft4.pdf''' for the latest. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} That looks better than I thought it could be up there. It has my vote as ready to go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:I agree, this looks really nice! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

::Barring any last second fixes I'd like to send the calendar to the printers tomorrow and get started on the various distribution methods. Ideally I'd like to start shipping at least some of them before Christmas. I'll start a new AN topic tomorrow regarding that. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Final calendar release is at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf''' (or higher resolution at http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final.pdf if anyone would like to print it themselves). Note that I had to add 2 new images/pages at the end as the printer was only able to print 24 or 28 page sizes. Hopefully there are no obvious errors for those as the print job has already been started. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I was just wondering: where were those final two images taken? Or, if you don't know, do you have the links for them on the wiki? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:::::The first one appears to have been taken from [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Overlook|Dragon Bridge Overlook]] - checked in-game and you can get a very similar view from there - or perhaps somewhere nearby like [[Skyrim:Cliffside Retreat|Cliffside Retreat]]. The second is in [[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern|Moss Mother Cavern]]. (I play this game way too much.) ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::I was thinking the second one looked like Moss Mother Cavern, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't find that exact image on the wiki, so I thought maybe I was wrong. Thanks, Alarra! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Got mine in the mail yesterday and it looks fantastic in person! Just wanted to leave a quick thanks, Dave! Good work on the calendars this year! :) -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 05:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

== Paarthurnax ==

The Blades demand for the removal of [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax (dragon)]] has seen the page blanked 6 times since last December, with only one constructive edit in that time. I think it needs some additional protection for a while. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Agreed. Delphine is such a tryhard. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::I've semi-protected it for a year, and we'll see how it fares after that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::Good god I can't believe people are still butthurt over this. I remember arguing with people on the official lore board about it back when Skyrim came out. Can you at least block anonymous edits to the page? --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 22:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::::That was just a joke, there's no way to guess what reason the page was blanked for as none was given. Semi-protection, which the page now has, does exactly that, as well as blocking brand new accounts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::Some people were seriously apoplectic about the Blades/Paarthurnax thing, certainly enough to vandalize a wiki. I just figured they'd found something else to be mad about by now. --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 23:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Inappropriate Username ==

Wanted to bring to the attention of Admins an inappropriate username creation. [[Special:Log/newusers]] link for easier viewing. User name begins with "Tom". [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 05:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

:Done, thanks. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, didnt wan't to say their name. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]])

== Legends Card Data and Popup ==

People asked for this a while ago and I'm finally getting to working on it. This is just the first step of many so if you have suggestions/ideas on the existing implementation or where it goes from here don't hesitate to say something.

:* List of cards can be seen at [[Special:LegendsCardData]]. Hover over the card name for the popup and click the name for card details.
:* Linking to a specific card can be done using the custom <code><nowiki><legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard></nowiki></code> tag which looks like: <legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard>.
:* Card data has been initially populated with the saved MetaTemplate data on each card page and is not yet complete.
:* Do we need a "missing card" image or is it fine to just display nothing?
:* Are the card popup images a good size? I've resized them from the wiki images to load faster.
:* An add/edit card data feature is planned in order to let editors manage updating existing card data and adding new ones.
:* Similarly, a card search feature is planned.
:* A deck builder is possible but is a much larger piece of work to be considered in the farther future as time permits.

If you notice anything broken or not working as you think it should let me know as well...I haven't done much cross browser/platform testing yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:59, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:Oooh, this looks really nice Daveh! The size of the pop-up images are quite good, they aren't much different in-game. I am not sure if a "missing card" image is necessary. I think that the benefits are that it will make us sure the pop-up is not broken and it might give us some incentive to find the missing images faster. All in all, it looks great! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:: A bunch more changes today:
:::* All card data should be up to date so far as I know it.
:::* Added the edit and create forms. Currently wiki admins have access to this but I can give specific editors access if there's any active Legends users. There's the "Create Card" in the upper right of the main card table and an "Edit Card" in the upper right of each card details page.
:::* Added a simple <legendscard card='unknown'>Unknown Card</legendscard>.
:: A reminder that I haven't played very much Legends myself so if there are obvious omissions in anything let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I would like to get access to the Create/Edit option at the [[Special:LegendsCardData]] page. I am one of the most active Legends contributors and I am also the one adding the new cards from the upcoming expansion. So it would be easiest if I can add the card to both places at once. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

::::You should now have the ability to edit and create cards. If this doesn't work for you please let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::It seems like the tag isn't properly processing template parameters. <code><nowiki>{{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code>, for example, produces: {{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>.

:::::Ilaro also pointed out that the link should go to the card's wiki page rather than Special:LegendsCardData. I'm not sure if we'd have a need to link to the card data for any reason, so the link can probably just be changed directly, but you could perhaps have it as an option in case there is some such need in the future, if it's not too difficult. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::Both of these should now be fixed. Use the <code>usedatalink="1"</code> parameter if you would like to link to the card data page, otherwise it links to the card article. Note that if there are other custom uesp tags that need template parameter parsing let me know (like <nowiki><esoitemlink></nowiki>). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I found another problem: cards like {{Legends PU|Archer's Gambit}} or {{Legends PU|Crusader's Assault}} are showing the right pop-up, but they are linked to the [[Legends:Archer|Archer]]/[[Legends:Crusader|Crusader]] page instead of their card page. This also causes {{Legends PU|Alik'r Survivalist}} to link to the not existing "Alik" page instead of [[Legends:Alik'r Survivalist]].
:::::::Another problem are the Werewolf cards. Both {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Nord)}} and {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Werewolf)}} have a unknown card pop-up. These are, however, two separate 'entities' and should have their respective card image pop-up. On the other hand, {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress}} shows the werewolf card, which should not be the case, because it is the link to the disambiguation page. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed both issues. For Aela it was due to me incorrectly importing just the one base card so I renamed that one and created the other one. Both should now have correct popups. The disambiguation popup is fixed however your local browser cache will likely still display the issue until you clear the cache or the image expires. Note that to fix both issues you just have to re-save any page that uses those cards. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The fixes seem to work! However, I should have been more clear about the werewolves. {{Card|Aela's Huntmate}}, {{Card|Circle Initiate}}, {{Card|Companion Harbinger}}, {{Card|Grim Shield-Brother}} and {{Card|Whiterun Protector (Werewolf)|Whiterun Protector}} suffer from the same problem as Aela. (that should be all of them) --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:57, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
:These should now be all fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
::Just when you thought you were done.... Cards with disambiguations in the name face a special challenge, in that the disambiguation needs to be both present and absent. Look, for example, at <legendscard card="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>. As it stands now, it links to [[Legends:Skeleton]] even though it gets its data from [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I'm not sure how that magic works, but it should really link to [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I can see three potential fixes for this:
::#Change the magic renaming to link to the same page it's getting the data from.
::#Change all the card names to use the exact same as the page names. If you go that route, though, you'd need to give us the ability to edit the name used in <code>card="''name''"</code>, as well as the wiki link itself, in [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?edit=Skeleton the edit page] so we can update page names if they move around and fix any that don't currently follow this pattern.
::#Provide an actual <code>link</code> parameter. This is potentially more flexible, but personally, I think this would end up over-complicating a lot of things, both on your end and on the wiki end, so one of the first two is probably the better choice.
::– [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

:::Today I added all new obtainable cards to the Card Database. However, I ran into two problems. Cards with an apostrophe in the name (for example: [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Mecinar%27s+Will]] ) do not link properly to the right image file. Secondly, there are two new creature types in the expansion, but I could only choose types from a dropdown list and not add a new one. You are probably busy, but I like to point out that the problem from RH (one post above this) is also still present. See whenever you have time/feel like to fix it. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added basic card filters to the card table display. Let me know if you need/want more filters and what specifically. Added the 2 new creature types...if any list is missing something just let me know. Explicitly listing what items makes it much easier for me since I don't play Legends much and am not to familiar with it. Fixed the issue with single quotes in item names...let me know if you run into similar issues (just was due to various text escaping errors). Haven't fixed RobinHood's issue but will look at it and figure out the best course of action shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 22:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Regarding the card links for disambiguation pages I've decided to go with a 4th option at least for now. Part of the issue is that the card link code doesn't access the legends card database and I'd prefer to keep it that way. That means the first option won't work. The second option would work but it depends whether editors want to go that route (I can add name changing to the card edit code as needed). The third option would work fine but it really just pushes the problem onto the editor or makes the card link template that much more complicated.

So option I've implemented for now is to hardcode a list of all cards that have disambiguation pages and check in that list whenever a card link is parsed. So far I just have 4 cards in that list:
:* Bandit Ambush => card
:* Chaurus => creature
:* Skeleton => card
:* Swims-at-Night => card
If there are more cards needed in this list, either now or in future sets, just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:Great! Some small notes: Chaurus (creature) has been changed some time ago to Chaurus (card) for consistency and the original is now a redirect. I also have some issue with <code><nowiki>{{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code> that it is still linking to the disambig page (see {{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>), while <code><nowiki><legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard></nowiki></code> is not (see <legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>). At last, is there any way to remove cards from LegendsCardData? Because this one is now split up into two cards [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Aela%27s+Huntmate]] (the Nord and the Werewolf version). Thanks in advance for the help! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::Fixed the Chaurus card type for the disambiguation page, the MetaTemplate issue with disambiguation links and I've manually deleted the linked card. For now cards can only be deleted or renamed manually...no reason other than to limit the amount of data loss that could happen (can't just revert edits like with wiki pages). For now just let me know of any deletes/renames required and these features can be added in time if desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Image Undeletion ==

The image File:SkyrimEchmer.jpg was deleted on the 4th November, however, the [[General:Uutak Mythos|Uutak Mythos]] is and has been linking it since 2nd September. The log doesn't say why it was deleted, so can someone look, and if possible, restore the image if it isn't too late, or if the reason it was deleted would see it deleted again (eg duplication), remove the links here and on that page. My apologies if it was me who marked it for deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:You listed it for speedy deletion with the reason "duplicate file, other one is in the naming style of similar images" and AKB deleted it. I thought there was a way to view deleted images, but if there is, I can't find it, so I've restored the image for the time being. If you can find what it's a duplicate of, re-link it to the correct place and we can re-delete this one. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks. The duplicate image was autolinked from the file page, and has now been replaced on the Uutak Mythos page. I've removed the link above so it's clear to redelete. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Done. And thanks for looking into that. I was just on my way out to dinner, so I didn't have a lot of time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

== UESP Fan Gift (2018 Calendar) ==

The [http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf calendar] has been finished and sent off for printing so we can get started on figuring out who the lucky people are that get one. I've ordered 250 calendars so if we distribute them roughly the same as the map last year I shouldn't have any left over at the end. Like last year distribution will be grouped into a few categories:

:* Anyone who submitted an image used in the calendar (12 people).
:* All admins/mods/guild leaders of UESP (if you aren't sure if this includes you just [mailto:dave@uesp.net ask me]).
:* Random draw for everyone is open at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] and a number of winners will be drawn on Dec 15th (so I can start mailing them before Christmas).
:* Any wiki editor in the 2017 year can submit their name at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] for a different random draw on Dec 15th for just wiki editors.
:* Any other contest that might be run by our forums, social media sites, or ESO guilds. If you running a content let me know and we can figure out how many calendars we can reserve for you.
:* Special people in the Elder Scrolls universe (Bethesda, Zenimax Online, fan sites, etc...). [mailto:dave@uesp.net Let me know] if you have a suggestion here!

Calendar winners can use the [https://goo.gl/forms/xZg2kcQa0pgh6nVb2 Mailing Address Collection Form (2018 Calendar)] to submit their address so I can mail the calendar to them.

I also still have about 100 maps from last year I can include for people as desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
::If you can swing it, I would love to get another copy of the map - mine got damaged when I moved between states. --[[User:SCarverOrne|SCarverOrne]] ([[User talk:SCarverOrne|talk]]) 03:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

:At least the Morning Star, Sun's Dawn, First Seed, and Rain's Hand images were all submitted by me, but I do not need 4 calendars... xD -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
::As an idea for the last point, maybe the creators of the most popular mods/addons? Like Arthmoor or the creator of FTC? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I received the calendars last Friday and they look great! I'm mailing out the first batch of 22 calendars today/tomorrow to everyone who has filled out the mailing address form so far. Hopefully at least some of you will get them by Christmas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Being just next door in Ottawa, I got mine today and it looks fantastic! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've performed the random draw just now with the 757 unique e-mails submitted from the form. 36 calendars went to wiki users and 25 went to random users. Everyone has been notified by e-mail to submit their mailing address on the collection form. After all calendars have been claimed from contests sometime in January I'll do another random draw to get rid of any left over calendars. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

:Will send out another 70 or so calendars this afternoon and that will likely be the last batch shipped out before the New Year. An update on what charities we've supported this year (it's hard to choose as there's so many good organizations to give to). I've donated $750 to [https://www.charitywater.org Charity Water] and through [http://childsplaycharity.org/ Child's Play] I've purchased $300 worth of toys for The Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. Note that if anyone is interested in running charitable events through Child's Play or a similar organization anytime just let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

== Skyrim Creation Club Purchases ==
Since Creation Club mods are "official" content (or close enough) the UESP's offer to purchase games for admins and active editors applies to them was well. At a minimum we should make sure that at least one admin/editor has a copy of each CC mod to make sure we can add/test content for the wiki. So far only Legoless has asked and received money for CC purchases and I don't know which mods he has purchased.

If you are an admin or ''active'' editor and would like to be reiumbursed for CC purchases just [mailto:dave@uesp.net let me know]. Usually I just send money via Paypal unless there is a way to gift CC credits somehow. People how have CC mods should also post here so we know which content we have and what we might not. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:I'd be interested. I've dabbled with them but only taken the ones that were free on offer. If I decide to take up your offer I'll email you, as anyone should if they wish to keep anonymous. Also, should I do it, I will purchase all currently available ones that I haven't got. The numbers certainly don't appear to be high as there has been little activity on documenting them, so it would be good to know what creations everyone purchases. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I'm also interested. I currently have Survival Mode, Arcane Accessories, Dwarven Armored Mudcrab, and Stendarr's Hammer (which I purchased with initial credits). Creation Club is easy content to document, so I'll certainly help out with those pages. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::: I have access to all CC mods to date and can verify as needed. Lots of information to add too, but it seems Fullerton may beat me to it! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I now own all current CC content. I'm not playing Skyrim at the moment but I can now pop in and check/verify stuff if anyone needs. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ebony blade victims ==

I recently found out that the randomly encountered Stray dogs are valid targets for the Ebony blade which also uniquely respawn. I added the information to the [[Skyrim:Ebony_Blade_Victims|Ebony blade victims]] page but my edit was [[Skyrim_talk:Ebony_Blade_Victims#Respawning_blade_targets|revoked in good faith by another editor]] for not meeting the criteria. As far as I can tell there was no mention of such a unlimited (they respawn) target for the quest that also means no other named NPCs need to be disabled. What is the policy for adding the information to that page and how, if possible, can I rephrase or change the information so that it would meet the criteria on that page? With best regards, --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 20:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:The best place to ask this is on the talk page of the article. Complaining to the admins because your edits were reverted and then subsequently explained is not how you go about understanding an article and its purpose. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::SkyHiRider, you might be better-advised to take it to the article's [[Skyrim talk:Ebony Blade Victims|talk page]], which more people will be watching and so will be a better place to expect a reply. The reason that the administrator noticeboard isn't the right place for this is because the AN's purpose is for Administrator-only actions, but the mistake was made due to being unaware so it's understandable and completely fine as long as the mistake isn't repeated. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 10:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

::: Understood, will keep it to the article talk page. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 23:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Mobile ads issue ==

A couple times the past week, I've hit some kind of ad that redirects me to a giveaway/scam site. Example: [https://imgur.com/kvsLmWm]. Both the times it happened, I was on Safari for iOS, refreshing the Recent Changes page. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 15:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

: A user mentions having a similar problem on [http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40436 this forum post] and manages to provide a link to the offending webpage. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== De-Rank Request: Fullerton ==

In light of Fullerton's recent actions on both our Discord server and another one, the Discord staff are suggesting a removal of his Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki. There is precedent on both the wiki and forum for dealing with a user's actions from a different part of the UESP or from offsite. As site staff in the form of patroller and blocker, he is representing the wiki elsewhere, and his recent behavior shows a lack of the type of responsibility needed to have these roles here.
* He was previously staff on Discord due to us initially adding everyone who has roles elsewhere as UESP staff. He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users.
* He has behaved in a somewhat inappropriate matter off and on, which has been addressed in a less-formal manner of staff talking to him or posting a reminder, such as racist comments, language such as the use of "retarded"/"mong", and other behavior which we do not consider okay there even as a joke. Earlier this week, on Tuesday, he was kicked from the server for spamming a bot command that was previously disabled (accidentally reenabled when the bot creator was working on it), being told to stop, and then moving the spam to our main channel (#general) instead, right around the time a prominent member of the ESO community joined.
* Yesterday, on another server (one with many banned members who have something of an anti-UESP sentiment), he [https://imgur.com/tK0668E doxxed Legoless (name hidden)] by changing his username there to his actual real name, and did it in a racist manner, as Legoless is Irish. At this point, we gave him a role on our server that would remove access to all channels to him except the one called "#dungeon", which is used as a holding area while staff discuss what action to take. He claimed to not know it was Legoless's real name, but we found evidence to the contrary; two instances of him using Lego's first or last name on October 22 and November 13.
* This morning, he left our server and rejoined to remove that role (essentially evading a soft ban), [https://imgur.com/feFK62z swearing at the moderation], and posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created).
Fullerton's editing on the wiki has been good, but we feel that with behavior like this it is not appropriate that he hold any type of staff role on the UESP. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

:Why are the Discord staff suggesting a removal of my patroller and blocker roles on-wiki? I do recall that recently there was an attempt to demarcate between Discord and on-wiki staves, and so it puzzles me to see that they're being treated as a single entity.
:If you will recall, these were demarcated because it placed people with insufficient experience in online chatrooms as moderators to have wikistaff become Discord staff, and I have been acting under the impression that one does not necessarily equal the other. I fully agree with my previous removal from Discord staff because quite frankly, my position as wiki staff should not in any way make me a staff member on the UESP Discord server. These distinctions are because Discord and the wiki are extremely different platforms. As a result, I did not feel that I had to act in my role as a wiki patroller when idly chatting in the UESP discord server and various other Discord servers, as the case may be. Now, the reason I failed to represent a wiki patroller in a Discord staff capacity is 'because' of this discrepancy, as I was thrust into a position of which I held no understanding. However, the patroller role on-wiki is something I signed onto fully aware of, and so there is far less possibility that I will misunderstand and forgo the duties which the role has assigned to me on here. As I said, they are different platforms and I signed on to be a Wiki patroller and fulfill the task, while I just so happened to be thrust into a position on the Discord pertaining to representing the wiki.
:Especially prominent in the demarcation between UESP and the Discord Server belonging to it is the Discord Server's recent promotion of "Tea Party Moderators", who were chosen simply for being fit for the task.
:In the past (October 31st), I attempted to have the patroller role removed from my Discord account by leaving the server. However, it was simply re-added to my account because I expressed an ambivalence towards the role. I did not feel I was bound to remain in the role, and came only to see it as a different-colored nametag on the Discord server - hence I requested the colors when I rejoined the server from my (acknowledged to be unjust) kick.
:Additionally, there's no reason for Discord conflicts to suddenly occur on-wiki-this directly defies the reason given for the deletion [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans]], which was that there is no need for the Discord to be that much on the wiki.
:I'd like to conclude by saying that this is an extension of the inconsistency in moderation styles on the UESP discord that has now spilled over onto the wiki, and that I doubt that allowing the confusion to continue will clear up any of the discrepancies on the UESP Discord server.
:—[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 04:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
::(This response is just from me and not the Discord staff as a whole.) Again, part of the reason we are suggesting it here is that as patroller and blocker you are still site staff - not moderating ''that'' part of it doesn't change the roles you do have - and your actions therefore still represent the UESP. The demarcation of the site has nothing to do with it (in fact we've been treating the UESP ''less'' as separate communities and more of a single community ever since the Discord was founded, even if not everyone manages every aspect of it.)
::(As an aside, the reason the Discord Bans page on the wiki was deleted was because we felt that the list had become incentive for people to try to behave badly in order to get banned and get their name on it, not because we felt the Discord and wiki should be kept separate. The reason you had the Blocker/Patroller roles on the Discord was to help you fulfill your duties on the wiki: to have access to the Patrolling channel to discuss edits a patroller isn't certain about, and for people to be able to notify you to block a vandal when needed (which is, in a way, still acting as site staff). You [https://imgur.com/ZxRTafv were aware] that that was the purpose of the role, and in fact after you left in October and it missed being re-added, you yourself eventually [https://imgur.com/E3Cgmnn pointed out] that you were missing it so that it could be added and you could put it to that use.)
::But anyway, back to the topic at hand and the main part of my response: The other part of why we're suggesting it is because in the past we have taken action on parts of the UESP for behavior on a different part (and even offsite) if the behavior was severe enough, which I personally would vote is the case here: sharing another user's personal information without their consent is very serious, even without the rest of it. And regardless whether viewing you as a staff member or not, the examples I listed in the first post show poor judgement at best and some of them malicious behavior at worst (e.g. re-joining the server to shake off the dungeon role and swearing at the mods and posting the dungeon content), which is enough to raise concern about whether you are responsible enough for these roles. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 08:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Instead of trying to dance around this, I'm just gonna say this. What you did could have put Legoless's personal safety at risk. Which raises the question, do you understand what doxing is, and why it is dangerous? Please answer if you understand what you did. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 09:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::From my persepctive, doxxing a member of staff is not the way anyone should behave, let alone another member of staff. Furthermore, your actions on Discord of evading the soft ban by leaving and rejoining the server to leave the #dungeon channel, and then posting the content of the dungeon in a public channel, shows that you do not respect our moderation processes. Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::There are so many side issues that are brought up by this discussion, it's hard to know where to start. On the one hand, I'm concerned about the cross-over of platforms. There's a certain level of behaviour that I would expect from staff, regardless of which UESP platform they're on, and to an extent, even on other sites. But on the other hand, there are also times when people feel the need to let loose. I've certainly said and done things on channels/servers/sites where I wasn't staff that I wouldn't do here, where I am.

:::::Doxxing someone (anyone! staff or not) is a serious charge, and one that might well warrant cross-platform discipline. That said, it really depends on how much of an issue it actually is for Legoless. I'd like to hear from him on that one. I'd also suggest that people consider the fact that some of us are more open about our real names, while others aren't, and it's very easy to forget who's who. A great many people know my real name, for instance, and it's not too terribly difficult to find out if you don't yet. A few clicks should bring you right to it. :) So, was Fullerton acting maliciously and deliberately sharing Legoless' real name? If so, then this is an easy decision, and I'd say yes, he should have rights removed here, since that type of behaviour is unacceptable for any staff member in any and every part of UESP. That becomes a bit more grey, however, if he was acting more out of negligence and just not thinking of the fact that only certain people know Legoless' real name, or even out of ignorance, not realizing that most people don't know it. As a gay man, I completely understand the latter. I've accidentally been outed to people in the past, and I have once accidentally outed someone else in complete ignorance, thinking that everyone knew. It sucks, but sometimes these things happen.

:::::As for the racism issue, that one's a bit more confusing. After all, Legoless' real name includes what is sometimes considered a racist (or at least ethnist) component to it, but is also just a normal name too, so unless there was something more there, I'm not sure that's necessarily racist on its own. Context, however, could make a big difference here, though I appreciate that it may be difficult to share that without inherently outing Legoless all over again!

:::::I think this brings up some larger issues, though, in that there has been a recent tendency to take things cross-platform, and I'm not sure it's always warranted. It strikes me that, to some extent, there have been vendettas going on from certain staff members against other users and an excessive adherence to rules. The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right. That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning. As popular as our Discord channel is, I think to an extent it has also become dysfunctional, and I have a tremendous concern that this cross-platform disciplinary action just continues that trend. TBH, when baratron recently suggested on my talk page that I return to the Discord channel, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!", though I worded it a bit more diplomatically there. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I just did some research, and in a quick Google, I was able to find pages that linked Legoless to his real name. In my own inbox, I was able to find '''Legoless himself''' using the variant of his name that is presented as being racist. So, I think the concerns on that front are a lot less than they might seem.

::::::That said, I think evading a soft ban was inappropriate behaviour, but I can also see where locking someone away in a dungeon (quite literally in this case) gives them no chance to defend themselves publicly, and leaves them unaware of any public or admin-only discussion concerning them, where they should have the opportunity to raise a defence. Yes, they can do so afterwards, but from my experience, by that point, opinions have already largely been formed by the administrators who took an interest. I don't think a dungeon room is at all an appropriate way to handle discipline. All the worse that it's actually called that without seeing the stigma it creates. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @RobinHood: You may have missed a nuance of what Fullerton did. Let's say Legoless's name is Patrick Murphy (it isn't). Fullerton didn't just change Legoless's public name on the other server to "Paddy Murphy" (where "Paddy" is both a common Irish first name and also a derogatory term used for Irish people) - he changed it to "Paddy O'Murphy" - adding an extra O' as if Legoless's surname ''isn't Irish enough''.

::::::: I am not sure what you mean by "''The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right.''" I'm only aware of TJ's Discord server, which has plenty of current members. It's a place for people to "shitpost" (am I allowed to say that on the wiki?), which is posting lots of meme images and talking all in emojis - the sort of behaviour that we frown upon on the main UESP Discord server. This isn't necessarily '''bad''' behaviour, it just does not convey the professional image that we want on the UESP Discord, in case a Bethesda or Zenimax employee shows up. (Which they do - we have two currently that we know of.)

::::::: We're also uncertain about "''That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning''". We're not sure of any current or ex-Patrollers who use TJ's server other than Fullerton and Legoless. Again, there is nothing sinister in them going to that site. Different Discord servers have different rules, and it doesn't mean that wiki staff are involved in some sort of plot against UESP because they happen to hang out there. Some people are on literally 50+ Discord servers at a time - I don't know how they keep up, I'm on 4 of which 2 are busy and multi-channeled, and the other 2 get on average of one message a day. But a lot of younger people apparently have the time and energy for it, *shrug*.

::::::: I take your point about the #dungeon channel, but it '''is intended''' for people to defend themselves. It's where they get to explain to the staff why they did whatever they did, and apologise if necessary. No one other than staff sees who is in there - other members do not even see the channel, and as far as they know, the user is simply offline. I don't agree that opinions have ''necessarily'' already been formed by the administrators who took an interest - sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes, the whole purpose of putting a person into that channel is to find out the details of an incident, rather than to punish people. The channel history is always wiped after use. Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business. I agree that #dungeon is a bad name.

::::::: I understand that Fullerton was frustrated because he was "left in the dungeon for 6 hours", but this was an unfortunate side-effect of timezones. I went to bed at 6 am on Saturday morning due to staying up, dealing with this situation. For many people in the US, it was already 1 am and not everyone has as chaotic a sleep schedule as I do. I'm not sure how anything could have been dealt with any quicker. Also, Fullerton himself told us that he would be away from his computer for the day, which also gave an impression that it was not urgent enough for '''everyone''' to have to stay up way past their bedtimes. I do regret that this was apparently not the case. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I did catch the O'. To me, that was not tremendously relevant, but maybe that's an Aspie thing. I just don't attach the same level of importance to these sorts of things as some do. Since Legoless himself has said it was ancillary to the doxxing itself, I see it as a moot point in any event.

:::::::: My understanding of the purpose of TJ's channel may have been off, as I've never been there and have only heard bits and pieces about it. As far as the other server, I won't say too much for privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that I'm not the only person who found our Discord server sufficiently problematic as to either leave it or at least not visit often. A few of us happen to have found each other in what is otherwise an unrelated server, and on rare occasions, we have discussed what we see as some of the problems. "Offshoot" was not the best term, but I couldn't find another one readily that encompassed both TJ's server (which I understand has at least a few users who were banned from UESP's Discord) as well as the other one.

:::::::: As for the dungeon, as you've acknowledged, the name itself is problematic and adds bias to any discussion, as it automatically implies guilt. I think a better method would be to take such discussions to an ad-hoc private channels and ask the user to refrain from using the channels (which leaves you a certain leeway to make it an even softer ban, allowing use of certain channels if appropriate), or just take it to a group PM and kick/ban them from the Discord server, if necessary. Perhaps these are a bit more of a nuisance, but they're not as inherently biased. At the very least, a better name could be found. I get that it was meant as humorous, but I think it probably doesn't seem quite as funny to someone who finds themselves there.

:::::::: I wasn't really aware of the timing issue of Fullerton being left in the room for 6 hours, but as you say, even if it was frustrating, that's completely understandable, given that our users are from around the world. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: This conversation's moving a bit quickly for me to get a response in, and most of my points have been covered by various users, but I'll just add that Fullerton actually [https://imgur.com/KECYIgR admitted] that his intention with that particular name change was to be racist.
::::::::: I agree that perhaps a better name can be found; it was indeed chosen to be humorous, but I understand your point about the implications the name might have. It certainly isn't our intent to imply that we've already formed opinions: as bara said, it's a place for the mods and the user to come to an understanding; we've given users another chance or found alternate solutions based on our discussions with them there, and it's not always used in cases of disciplinary action either. Even yesterday it was used voluntarily as a private place for a user who wanted to talk to the moderators. While I can understand the frustration of remaining there for hours, the reason we created it is to have time to let all moderators give input, discuss things thoroughly, and not make snap judgements. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::: That screen-cap certainly provides a context I didn't have before. Thank you. As far as forming opinions in advance, that's not just limited to Discord, I've seen it happen in various staff discussions, and I'm as guilty of doing it as the next person. There are often two (or more) discussions on any given issue of misbehaviour, one that includes the affected user and one that doesn't. I think too often, the one that doesn't involve the user tends to jump ahead of the one that does, often without all the facts, and it leads to inappropriate conclusions. That's my main concern here. Usually by the time it's decided that someone belongs in the dungeon (or whatever you end up calling it), there's already been a discussion behind the scenes as to whether the user should be pulled in there. As I recall, putting them in there also removes them from all other channels, does it not? Assuming I'm right, that also adds a presumption of guilt, providing a punishment before a discussion with the user has even happened. I'd rather see the user involved first, before any decisions are made (not counting egregious behaviour, of course, where immediate actions are entirely appropriate). This is probably getting off-topic, however, as it's far more generalized of a concern than this specific instance. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Technically yes, there is a presumption of guilt when putting someone in the dungeon. That's why it exists and why it is named what it is – it is a punishment, a soft ban from the server, while the staff discuss privately, and also discuss with the person involved, whether their actions require a full ban. The alternative is that they get banned from the server straight away, and then the only way to contact them is via private messages, and then it is much more difficult to involve all the staff. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}This isn't about Discord staff versus website staff - this is about a person, who has been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.

UESP is not a random TES discord or Facebook group, it is the single oldest website dedicated to the series, and one of the most respected institutions in the fandom. You, as a representative of said website, are obligated to behave in a manner becoming of its mission and position in the community. Doxxing, using racist language, and making ableist remarks (not to mention defying a soft ban, talking publicly about private conversations, and repeatedly refusing to change aforementioned behaviours) is NOT OK for any regular member of a community, and it is especially not ok for someone that is supposed to represent the very best and most trustworthy of a community (i.e. the staff).

When you use ableist or racist language, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making UESP look bad. You're making people uncomfortable and less willing to contribute to the website and community, potentially driving away valuable contributors. You're eroding peoples' trust in the website and its staff. You're encouraging bad behavior from members and making moderation more difficult, because if staff can act like assholes, why can't everyone?

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. Your recent behaviour has been the opposite of that. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 20:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I'm certainly not okay with my name being made public knowledge without my consent, which is the reason I brought this to the attention of staff to begin with. The fact that it was a racist version of my name is ancillary to the point as far as I'm concerned, and the specifics of that do not need to be addressed publicly.

: This is not a discussion of the demarcation between Discord and the wiki, and I don't find Fullerton's response above to be at all sufficient or even relevant. This discussion is about his continued rights on the wiki and therefore needs to be had on-wiki. Patroller and Blocker are trusted roles, and Fullerton broke that trust. That isn't the kind of behaviour I would expect from staff, regardless of whether it was off-site or not. In my view, the fact that it was done in a third party chatroom frequented by users who are outright hostile towards myself and UESP staff actually makes it worse. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I apologize if I took the discussion a bit off-topic, but I do see the discontent among some users, myself among them, with the way the Discord channel is run as being at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. How it's run has a direct impact on how people behave, and more importantly, how they misbehave. That probably should be a separate discussion, however, if it needs to be had at all. At this point, I'm not sure I see much of a point. I agree with the above two posters that, wherever they are, staff on the wiki should try to behave appropriately when discussing the wiki. It's a fine line to draw for me, though, because people also need a place to vent.

:: What ''is'' important to me here is Legoless' comments. If he's not okay with his online name being linked to his real name publicly, then I'm not okay with it either. Even if the information is out there on the web, publicly presenting it is taking that a step further. Doing so in a room that's hostile towards him does indeed make it worse. Even if someone's venting, there's a time and a place for it, and a way to do it. That was not it.

:: So, while I think there are deeper issues, looking at this request in isolation, I'm not opposed to it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::: I'm just really sad by the whole situation. @Fullerton, I feel as though 90% of the interactions I've had with you over the past year have been positive. Maybe 9% have been frivolous, and 1% annoying or rude enough that I've had to pull you up on the behaviour. I'm not familiar with New Zealand culture and it's possible that it's much more casually racist than the British culture I'm familiar with. Then again, it could also be that you're young and suffering from a lot of peer pressure from friends who dare you to say something dodgy.

::: But look - it's NOT okay to post someone's real name online without their consent. I know you go by your actual legal name online, and that's your choice to do so - but it's also other people's choices to '''not''' do so. Nor is it okay to be casually racist towards other people who aren't your close friends. (I'd argue that it isn't okay to be casually racist at all, but I guess there is some banter between friends which sounds awful to other people listening yet is meant in a friendly way.)

::: I actually '''don't''' believe you should lose your Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki due to your behaviour on Discord, because your work on the wiki has been good. Apparently you have a few annoying editing quirks, but I bet everyone does until they've been here for many years. But you must understand - if you can't be trusted not to reveal someone's personal information on Discord, how do we know we can trust you not to deface wiki pages because you're angry? When you have the Patroller and Blocker roles, you have '''a lot''' more power to damage the wiki. UESP has been going for 22 years. As Lady N said, Bethesda use it to look up Lore they have forgotten, Zenimax use it to get ideas for Arena and Redguard places to revisit in ESO, and we know for a fact that Dire Wolf use it for reference from little oddities which have popped up in Legends. ''The wiki is more important than one person.''

::: I'm sorry that it's come to this. You're intelligent and energetic, and there's no reason on Earth for you to have randomly attacked a wiki admin "for the lols". You could be using that intelligence and energy for good. I hope that you will continue to work on the wiki, so that over time people will feel able to trust you again. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

===Edit Break 1===
I'm gonna ask any conversation about the running of the Discord server, or whether or not there is a precedent for cross-site or even off-site behavior is relevant to your standing on the wiki be shelved. The first is off topic, and the first one has a clear precedent from past incidents. If you would like to make suggestions for the running of the Discord, or the formalization or removal of the existing precedent relating to cross-site and off-site activity, please start a separate topic either here or on CP.

As far as for the actual issue, I would like for Fullerton to respond to the topic. Particularly, I would like for him to confirm that he understands what doxing is, and why it spawned this conversation. Additionally, I'd like for him to be able to provide a response in relation to this issue, before any decision is made relating to it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:As was stated, his real name has come up once or thrice and that led me to believe that he was alright with it being used. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by doxxing. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::Doxxing's a relatively new term, probably a few years old. It means deliberately/maliciously releasing someone's personal information (e.g., name, address, or phone number) when it wasn't generally known. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Robinhood is correct. With that said, if that is true why didn't you just say that before, instead of claiming ignorance to what his name was? Additionally, do you want to comment about the rest of your actions? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't mention it because I assume it wouldn't help my case, that "ignorance is no excuse" would be invoked. In regards to my actions on the Discord server, attempting to evade the dungeon was untenable. However, I would like to say that I am '''not''' an ableist, and I object to being called one. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 08:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::But now it seems/looks like you have been lying to us. How can we still trust your word then? --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::As someone that is in the aforementioned Discord server (which isn't as anti-UESP as portrayed and currently has only <s>one</s> two users who were banned from the UESP Discord server) and saw the immediate aftermath of Fullerton's actions, I will vouch for Fullerton in saying that he seemed genuinely surprised that the nickname he had set for Legoless was his actual name, so, while what could be considered as doxxing occurred, I do believe that it was completely unintentional on Fullerton's part, it might have been a lapse of memory and the specific name being subconsciously picked without conscious awareness that it was actually related to Legoless, but in any case, the intention was pretty clearly not malicious from everything I saw.

::::::Additionally, reading this discussion, it feels like Fullerton has been driven into a corner by you people, being forced to admit to things that don't necessarily correlate to the actual course of events, so either he is a masterful actor and played us all at TJ's server (which I highly doubt), or he's just bending over due to the pressure to try to find the easiest way out (this last paragraph being mostly directed at Ilaro's previous comment). [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 15:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I do not agree at all. If anything, he did put himself into the corner, and depending on what he told you, playing the victim. We gave him more than enough time to explain himself and apologizing without any pressure, but he felt the need to insult the staff and evading the soft ban instead (see the first two links Alarra posted). I am mostly disappointed that he did not even apologize for the doxing (or the racism, which he clearly admitted was the intention). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 17:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: With all due respect, Brynjar, Fullerton lied to you and your friends in the other server. Legoless's real-life surname is uncommon - not only have I literally never heard it before, but it also doesn't appear in the Top 100 Irish surnames lists that I've found online (one from the 1890s, the other from the 1990s). In order to get it correct, Fullerton would have had to know it.

:::::::: If instead of lying after the event and trying to involve all of you in the lie, Fullerton had simply turned around and said, "I'm sorry, it was a joke, I didn't realise Legoless didn't want his real name revealed" we wouldn't be here now. Refusing to publicly acknowledge that he's made a mistake is the exact thing that is making us question Fullerton's judgement, and whether he can be trusted with important wiki permissions. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 19:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} Let's all try to keep in mind that Fullerton is fifteen years old and on the autism spectrum. While it's not impossible, those don't generally go hand-in-hand with being a master manipulator. From what I've seen, he's doing his best to explain his actions but, being that age and not having a full comprehension of social interaction, he's not doing it in a way that neurotypical people would expect and want. And yeah, maybe like any teenager, he knows he's screwed up and just wants to figure out a way that'll get this over with the fastest, as opposed to something more appropriate, so he can move on and pretend this never happened. Being on the autism spectrum myself, I see quite clearly here the same types of mistakes I would have made at his age: not considering the effects of my actions on others and saying whatever was needed to make a problem go away, rather than having to interact with people in a negative way. That's autism!

The fact that he doesn't know how to respond in this situation may well be reason to go forward with the initial proposal, but let's also look at this from his perspective. How would you all have reacted when you were fifteen, caught doing something wrong, and everyone around you was older than you and yelling at you? It's not a fun position to be in. I'm not saying that should affect this decision, but it does give some important insight into Fullerton's responses to this conversation, I think.

Also, baratron raised an interesting point before the edit break. Does this mistake prevent him from patrolling or blocking in a responsible manner? The answer to that is clearly no from a purely logistical point of view. But we do have to consider the social and interpersonal ramifications of Fullerton's actions. Personally, I'm not convinced that removing him as a patroller and blocker will have any beneficial effect on the wiki, and I tend to think that Discord remedies should be sufficient for Discord problems in most cases. But, as I said above, I'm not opposed to the removal of rights, either. The simple fact is, an administrator here was affected because Fullerton didn't think his actions through, which is not really a desirable quality in someone with elevated rights. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:All right, I wasn't going to post, as I came back to the wiki/Discord right as this all happened and didn't see the build up to this (the "small" infractions e.g. the ableism), but I need to say something. Fullerton, your actions were inexcusable. It's not just the doxxing, or the admitted racism that went along with it. Your behavior has been deteriorating for a while. Even before I took my wikibreak, I had noticed that you seemed increasingly abrasive. And abrasive is not a good quality in a representative of the UESP. I was willing to overlook it, because you are young yet and have room to grow, but I cannot in good conscience allow this to continue. Even though I'm on the autism spectrum myself, I know to watch my words regarding other members of my community. Reclaiming words for yourself is one thing, but referring to ''other people'' that way without their knowledge or consent is, indeed, ableist. Just from that, I would have pushed for a time-out. As for the doxxing, I can't speak to the racism, but... Fullerton, you understand that doxxing is a ''violation'', right?

:I believe what this boils down to is consent, and a lack of respect for it. And that's a basic skill that nothing but time and experience can teach you, if ever. Add to that your defense to this incident, which has been... lacking at best, and I must advocate for demotion. Which is a shame, but a necessary one. —[[User:Likelolwhat|likelolwhat]] [[User talk:Likelolwhat|''talk lulzy to me'']] 20:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{Consensus|Removal of Rights|2=Alright, I think we've piled on enough. I'm calling this one now before it goes any further. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)}}

== OB:Efficient Leveling ==

[[OB:Efficient Leveling|Efficient Leveling]] may require protection to keep some utter nonsense off it. I've attempted to end it by contacting the user directly, but given that the user has had over a week to do the basic maths involved in discovering why it should not be on the page (5+5+5 does not equal 5+3+3), I hold no hope that they will come to understand that their edit should not remain on the page and will attempt to replace it again. I'm already on my third revert of the edit, and have no wish to get punished for keeping nonsense off a page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I've fully protected it for a period of 2 weeks. This shouldn't be a problem considering the low levels of editing attention that page has received in recent years, but if it needs to be lifted before then just let an admin know. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

== ESO Dragon Bones PTS Update ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS.

:* uespLog Addon -- Turn custom stats off (''/uespcustomstat off'') to stop a bug in the custom stat display otherwise you'll get error messages in most UI screens.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-17pts/ Files Uploaded] -- In progress...
:* Maps --
:* [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=17pts Skills] -- Done!
:* Skill Cooefficients --
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=17pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons --
:* Collectibles -- Updated to fix an issue with missing items from Live.

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

== UESP's Discord Server ==

As many of you no doubt noticed, I've recently referred to UESP's Discord chat as "dysfunctional". As the person on the wiki with the most rights next to Dave (out of the active users, at any rate), I am at all times aware that it's my duty to attempt to be professional and fair-minded in all things UESP related, so that is not a statement I make lightly. Administrators don't speak against administrators, generally, and when they do, it should be noted. That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why ''four different current- or ex-staff members'' are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming, and only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional. My concerns about how it's run are numerous, so I'll try to break them down into meaningful groups.
* '''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave. During my time on the server, I saw numerous examples of questionable behaviour on his part, including lying, manipulating, interfering in matters outside our server, and outright paranoia that another administrator was out to get him, simply for calling him on some of his behaviours. While those incidents are long gone and not worth getting into at this point, particularly since I have no way of bringing forth evidence at the moment, I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.
* '''Staff''': Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff (if even that). Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.
* '''Accountability/Transparency''': Continuing on from that last, far ''far'' too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public. When members complain, they then sound like trouble-makers. If the complaints escalate, they may even come to ''be'' trouble-makers, simply out of frustration. This needs to change. Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it. If the chatroom is cleared or deleted for any reason, chat logs should be kept and posted publicly, in order to ensure full transparency on any decisions.
* Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making. Even ''in'' political discussions, staff need to be certain that they're not being unnecessarily "twitchy" when it comes to deleting messages or moderating users. If any can be found, I think a few responsible, moderate right-wing people should be brought on as staff, to balance everyone else out and make sure the echo chamber phenomenon isn't perpetuated.
* I understand that the "dungeon" channel has been renamed, and I thank you all for that. This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff. The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help. In this configuration, staff have ''every'' advantage (numbers, increased rights, ability to discuss approach and strategy without the user's knowledge, to name a few), while the accused has none. That needs to be significantly altered. While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing. If the room is to be cleared or deleted afterwards, chat logs should be maintained and published publicly for future reference. Similarly, even if the chat takes place in a private room, chat logs should be maintained in a private location, accessible to all staff in any part of UESP. This will not only help to ensure continued transparency and accountability, it will also allow staff from other parts of the site to be aware of any problem behaviour occurring elsewhere.
* At ''no time'' should any administrator ever delete any comment, theirs or anyone else's, from any discussion relating to rules or discipline. If you say something that came out wrong or was inaccurate or what have you, apologize and move forwards. If you say something that you realize could get you in trouble, well, guess what? You're an administrator...you're accountable for what you say and do! Deal with the consequences like a responsible admin.
* '''Rules''': In far too many cases, rules are developed on an ad-hoc basis. An example from Fullerton's discussion, above, would be not posting the contents of the moderation room to a public room. That's not a rule that was posted anywhere prior to that. From all accounts, it was made up on the fly. If Fullerton wasn't just doing it to spam channels or leak private information, he had every right to post the contents of a discussion about him to wherever he felt it appropriate to do so. After all, it's a discussion about him, and he maintains absolute control over that information. If administrators felt that they said or did something they didn't want public in that chat, well, maybe they shouldn't have done that thing in the first place! I don't know if that's the case here, but accountability is one of the places I feel our Discord server needs the most work, so I'm bringing it up again here as an example.
* Similarly, all rules should be posted publicly to the wiki's Discord page, or a subpage, so that people can know what they are before joining, if they choose to look. This will also help maintain a record of when rules were enacted or changed.
* '''Cross-platform Interactions''': As a rule, what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server. I'm not just referring to the recent issue with Fullerton, but rather, reminding everyone of a rule that has long been in place and has sometimes been ignored: no decisions made on the Discord server should be applied to the wiki, forums, or wherever else, without there being a full discussion on the relevant platform. You can always post chat logs, if needed. Bringing this back to Fullerton, however, I feel that much of what happened was probably blown out of all proportion, from what I've been able to tell in chats with those involved. At best, I feel that this was a borderline case as to whether it should have been brought to the wiki. So, I'm going to suggest that we use this as "the line". If it's less serious of an incident than Fullerton's, keep Discord discipline limited to Discord. We don't need to perpetuate drama across the entire site. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

::Rob has hit all of the points I've had some concern about, and after telling me he was making the post, I wanted to throw in my agreement with each post. I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally. If there were any concerns, they could be brought up knowing it would be fairly handled either there or on our Administration Noticeboard. I feel like that's not the case at all in Discord, and when I was there, I had a handful of users DM me because they were upset that there was such a clear clique and pecking order established in the Discord. There's a lot more emphasis on authority and enforcement, rather than peaceful moderation, and it's affecting how comfortable people are - myself included - when using the Discord, hence my departure from it.

::Users shouldn't have to be concerned that what they say will be picked apart by a cabal (and I hate using this word) that seems to exist in the Discord where the staff are ganging up on people who can't adequately defend themselves. Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.

::I also agree with Rob's thoughts about how leadership is elected, and I feel like going forward there should be a clear election process or consensus to decide who is capable of being a staff member, because at present, I see questionable decisions on who should be staff, and I feel like there should be clear guidelines in place and a nomination process, not existing staff arbitrarily chosing people on their own, as I feel they've been prone to do. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 23:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

:::@RH While you are making some interesting points and some of them could definitely addressed, I still think you are way too exaggerating the problems on Discord. The dungeon channel, for example, is the alternative for outright banning. There is a reason that the person does not have access to the other channels, because it is (mostly) used a soft-ban. I will comment about the other points at another time, because I certainly believe some of them are (partly) right and some of the rules might be changed to reflect these concerns.
:::For now I want to point out this statement from Damon: "where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with." I have no idea why he said that, because everyone in that discussion is in the top 100 of most edits this year (and Damon, you are not there, but I ''do'' still think you have the right to pop-up into this conversation). I believe everyone has the right to have their say, because the wiki concerns a lot more people than only the editors. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I know I have not been an active user of Discord, having only used it about 3 times, but having read the post above, here and in the Fullerton case, my experience of basically being in charge of discipline on IRC (having kicked more people than the bot in charge of auto-kicking), and being one of the most active when I was there, I feel I can contribute/make observations from my experience there.
::::Almost every case of discipline was public, warnings, discussion, actions. Only very rarely did something discipline-wise happen off-channel, usually in private messaging, and usually only to bring attention to something that would then lead back into the public room. This is almost the same as happens on the wiki for demotions, punishments, warnings, even disputes about certain edits, with only a few instances of discussions happening via email. This is a very important point for avoiding accusations of cliquishness, even if it can't stop it. It actually helped that being a "staff" member on the wiki auto-entitled you to IRC status, as the wiki had little knowledge of a persons social leanings if they hadn't been on IRC.
::::The description of the multiple channels reinforces the observation that the channel is not being run for social interaction anymore, given the abundance of rules regarding where you have to post certain things; why are you not allowed to have fun in the main channel. That is an indictment of the current running of the channel, and I would suggest that the aforementioned Bethesda and Zenimax visitors would find that rather sad that no-one is having fun in case they "spoil" whatever passes for enjoyment in that stale environment. The IRC had an unwritten rule that you could have fun until someone needed help or to discuss something wiki/series related, and again it was rarely broken; this also lead to having many people in the channel who knew little about the games but were there to talk socially, making the place more enjoyable.
::::An overabundance of rules only tells people that you don't trust them to behave without them. I personally have probably broken every rule that wikipedia has cared to invent, yet respect most of them and enforce them when they are actually needed. Things thrive best when there are less rules, because the few that remain actually mean something. The current Discord wiki page is still not complete (a particular section is still linking back to the IRC page waiting for someone to adapt it for Discord). Nevertheless, it should not become full of rules as a result, and should continue the kind of informal style of the IRC page. I would also suggest that a complete rethink of all the rules be done, with some or many done away with, and also roll some of the off-shoot channels back into the main one, or merge some of the side ones together (less is so very much more).
::::Finally, a persons behaviour is their behaviour. An admins actions on IRC was an admins actions on the wiki. Even a persons actions off-site when representing the site should be held against them. This can be traced as far back as rpeh's admin rights removal for his actions off-site. When you become a staff member particularly, you are even-more-so representing the site, a responsibility you accept when you request or accept a role. However, back to IRC, an off-hand remark would often be forgotten if an apology was made, given the real-time nature of the network, only more serious actions would have led to something as big as rights-removals on the wiki (this is not a comment on the above discussion). To state it again, if RobinHood70 were to go anywhere on the internet and start doing reprehensible things (like saying my grammar is awful), and we knew it was him, he should be held accountable on the wiki and any of its offshoots (eg twitter/facebook management).
::::Feel free to ignore any of my advice/experience given my utter lack of Discord experience, just as I will continue to avoid social interaction with every one of you for the foreseeable future, given my right-wing stance on treating people with dignity and respect. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::First of all, I'd like to thank RobinHood for bringing this issue to the Noticeboard, and even more so with his resounding points, with which I agree in full in all cases.

:::::I have been one of the most active users in the UESP Discord server for close to an year or so (being on number 4 in the leaderboard - which is based roughly on the number of messages sent in the server - for quite a long period), until I voluntarily left a month ago due to my escalating issues with the moderation and administration of the server. My draft for this post got considerably long so I'll try to bullet point my issues and concerns to try for a more concise and cohesive post:

:::::* Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job. As expressed by some staff members on the server itself, some of them do not even want to moderate and administer the server, and many others have no idea what they’re doing, which has led and will certainly lead to a series of bad and questionable decisions, even more so given the apparent top to bottom hierarchy and authority even among the staff members.

:::::* Divide between the staff and the community: while a difference between the wiki staff and the general public is certain to be expected, it has been made unhealthy by the server privileges given to the wiki staff, creating a sub community that most of the time seems to behave as if they were above the “regular” users, which shouldn’t be the case, given that the server is open to the public. Interactions between most staff members (with exceptions) and the rest of the community are also fairly limited, creating a big divide in the general interpretation of the actions to be taken, which are made exclusively by this more secluded and reserved group than by the biggest share of the active user base; and, as RH said, without consultation or open discussion with that part of the community.

:::::* Poor and inconsistent moderation/decision making: staff behaviour in regards to rule enforcement and problem-solving is completely inconsistent, while one staff might be strict, many others are extremely lax or never actually do anything, and even when the staff intervene, the actions taken vary absurdly from one to the next, and most of the time the staff board as a whole is extremely reactionary and ready to blow something minor and irrelevant out of proportion, making the many suffer for the sins of the one. It seems to me that the staff members lack a good guideline (if they have one at all) on how to treat the server, which ties in to the first point, of staff members not prepared to handle a chat server or unwilling to do so.

:::::Other than that, I would like to stress the points about Accountability and Cross-platforming that RH has made, which I believe are very important here. And despite what Ilaro has to say, all of these are very serious problems for the well-functioning of a chat server and the UESP server specifically, and all of the users I interact with on a more frequent basis, either on UESP or the other six TES servers I’m a part of, all notice and are bothered with most of the points raised here. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 01:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{ec|4}} I didn't bring it up further because the discussion was about Fullerton's rights on the wiki, not your opinion on the Discord server. But I must say that I was rather put out by your comment that the server is "dysfunctional". And maybe it is, if that ideal of functionality is based on the functionality a wiki. But Discord is not a wiki, it's an instant messaging and VoIP service, which is an entirely different medium.
::::::'''Ownership''': While I agree that technically it would be better if Dave was the server owner, I don't think he is active enough on Discord for that to actually be practical. A Discord server needs an active server owner so that they are available to deal with whatever issues crop up that only the server owner can deal with.
::::::'''Staff''': The original assignment of Discord staff based on being elected staff elsewhere on UESP is untenable. It was mentioned to us numerous times that a number of staff elsewhere have been avoiding the Discord because they didn't want to be staff on Discord. Everyone who was initially appointed as Discord staff this way has, as far as I am aware, now been contacted though to see whether they actually want to remain Discord staff or not. So that whole thing actually didn't make sense at all, as it was putting people into a position they didn't want. When it comes to appointing new staff, it appears to work the same way that it does here. Someone is approached by current staff with the suggestion. I think it's a very rare occurrence for someone to actually put themselves forward for a staff position of their own volition, or even with encouragement from other users, without at least one of those other users being staff already.
::::::'''Accountability/Transparency''': I actually don't understand the issue here. It is common practice for administration to be discussed in a private channel that is specifically for discussing administration. If that was done in a public channel, then effectively everyone is now an administrator. Although I do agree that anything that would have an effect on the entire userbase should be discussed with the entire userbase, I can't think of any examples right now where that has actually happened. (I'm sure you can though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up, so I'd be interested in having some examples.)
::::::There does appear to be an "anti-anything-remotely-right" bias, which I think may cause any staff members who are not left-leaning, if they do exist, to not make it obvious.
::::::Yes, the dungeon channel is now called "mediation". Whenever the channel is cleared, the contents are logged and are available to other staff on request. The isolation from the rest of the server is intentional - being put in the "dungeon", as was, is effectively banning someone from the rest of the server without actually kicking them from the server (you can't talk to them if they're kicked). It originally existed solely for this purpose; someone isn't banned if they can still access the other channels. This has been repurposed however, and I think can now serve as a "public" moderation chatroom, if such a thing would ever be required (but I can't think of any examples why it would be, as then it could just be discussed in #general).
::::::I'm not sure what your "deleting comments" sentence is getting at. Comments that violate the rules would of course be deleted, but I don't think that's what you mean...
::::::'''Rules''': On that specific example, a rule that has existed since the initial staff overhaul in October is ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential"''. Since that rule only applies to staff, only staff can see it, to avoid confusing the rest of the userbase. Fullerton was well aware of this rule, and anyone who is suspended to the moderation channel is informed of it as well.
::::::While conceptually similar to the IRC, I think the way Discord has grown means that "token AOPs and HOPs" is just not a viable moderation method. The (rather high) number of staff required to maintain a large server probably does make it seem like there's a clique, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on how we can try to avoid that, yet while still maintaining necessary server integrity.
::::::I do not see anyone who commented on Fullerton's case who is not a regular/active UESP wiki contributor, based on the active editors from the last 12 months. Although it would be up to whoever decides what "consensus" actually is to determine whether consensus can be reached based on the currently-involved participants.
::::::Regarding how staff are chosen, I have no idea how it works on the Forums, but however it works there is probably the best model to use as a base for what we do on Discord. A forum is much more similar to a chat server than a wiki. Having a two-week discussion to reach someone's arbitrary definition of "consensus" is not a viable basis.
::::::In conclusion however, if "what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server", surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it'', and then be involved in the implementation process of actually making the thing better. "Fixing a broken system that we didn't realise was broken" is what I've been doing at work for the past three months, and the best progress towards a resolution always comes out of a discussion where a clear direction of what to do next is given.

::::::@Silencer: If there appears to be a "rule against fun" in the main channel on Discord, let me know where that seems to have stemmed from, as that's not something I would support (although given how active the main channel usually is, I don't actually see it). Also if there is a general feeling that there is an overabundance of rules, I'd be happy to discuss trying to cut them down, if we can work out what's not actually needed.

::::::@Bryn: Immediate moderation rights for staff was a concept that was based on trust. i.e., "if they're trusted to moderate elsewhere, they're trusted to moderate Discord too". But we realised this was not what many of the other staff wanted, and as such, this is no longer the case, and all who were initially appointed like this have (I think) been contacted to ask if they wish to continue. Anyone newly appointed to a staff position elsewhere on UESP retains that original concept of "trust" though, and by that reasoning, are still asked if they would be interested in moderating Discord based on that. Any suggestions for improving staff/community interaction would be welcome, but I maintain what I said before that server moderation cannot be a community activity. There is definitely inconsistency within staff behaviour, but I don't actually know how that can be improved, as everyone will have their own way of doing things. In terms of actual rule enforcement (i.e., moderation), there is no reason that shouldn't be consistent if the rules are the same for everyone. Again, if people who "are bothered" by this come forward with their problems ''and solutions'', then there is no reason that we can't address these.
::::::--[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Eno: I appreciate the changes being made, and while I can see the reasoning for the trust factor, I think a competence qualification should also be looked for in a communication medium that works fundamentally different from what those people are used to moderate. I have proposed the following solution at least two times publicly on Discord and a few times directly to staff members, but it has so far been ignored. What I've always proposed is a divorce between wiki staff and Discord staff; there should be specific roles and channels for wiki and forum and guild and what-have-you staff, for sure, so that they can discuss topics that concern their specific roles, but those people should not also be made or necessarily even asked to become moderators for the server, and this should instead be relegated to members picked for showing aptness to follow and enforce rules and integrity in chat, kinda like I hear the "Tea Party Moderators" were selected (although I think this current approach is still flawed). I didn't go at length with this suggestion in my previous comment because it was already too long as it was and I felt it was detracting myself from making the points I thought needed to be made. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 02:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::{{ec}} @Enodoc: I'll respond more fully later, as it'll take some time for me to really go through this point by point, but I did want to respond to one thing that may help clarify my attitude and actions here. Specifically, your suggestion that ''surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it''.''

::::::::The problem here is that in taking this discussion to the Discord server, we are stating that we're willing to rejoin the server in its current state. I, for one, am not. I do not want to be seen as supporting it in any way right now. Yes, I think it's actually that dysfunctional, or at least it was the last time I was there. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if a discussion of the server takes place ''on'' the server, staff there are under absolutely no obligation to do anything whatsoever about the suggestions made and, unless we all go there together at the same time, any individual comments will be lost in the chatter of the general channel. The user could well be deemed a trouble-maker and have their comments deleted. Even if it did become a highly active discussion there, as you can see from some of the comments here, trust in some of the Discord staff is not high among some users. We simply have no confidence that any discussion held on the server wouldn't simply be deleted. By holding it here, on the wiki, it's not in Discord staff's hands, and a full, permanent record is available to any and all without requiring them to join UESP's Discord. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}I'll preface this by saying that I am one of the "current or former patrollers" mentioned above who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that the UESPWiki Discord server is being run. Make of that what you will.

One of the most serious issues I attempted to raise during my (brief) time in the channel was the lack of transparency which seems to have become endemic since the move was made from IRC. This has manifested itself most notably in the deletion of the block logs page - Fullerton also attempted to address that, above. Frankly, I don't feel Alarra's argument that a public list of banned users would encourage misbehavior holds any water, and I'd appreciate some clarification of this claim, if she’d be so kind.

Is there a precedent that's made you feel this way? Do you feel the same way about the [[Special:BlockList|block logs]] on the wiki? Should they be privatized on the basis that they might encourage infamy? I moderated the [[UESPWiki:IRC|now defunct IRC channel]] for more than three years, and during that time the [[UESPWiki:IRC/Bans|channel block log]] was maintained meticulously, because it was understood that the chat was simply an extension of the wiki, and so the same rules applied - including record keeping. I’m disturbed to see that this commitment to openness has fallen by the wayside so completely, and in such a short amount of time.

On the topic of record keeping, I find the accusation levelled against Fullerton that he ''"posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created)"'' really, really worrying, and actually symptomatic of a much larger culture of silence. If a user feels uncomfortable with the way that staff are treating them, and feels they're being dealt with unfairly, they shouldn't just be permitted to raise the issue elsewhere - they should be encouraged to do so.

''"He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users."'' Once again, where on the Discord guidelines page does it say that this is grounds for removal of role? Why is this grounds for punishment at all? Conversations with staff members are not top-secret information - if someone feels uncomfortable with the way a staff member has spoken to them, and feels that policy has been violated, they're within their rights to consult another user for a second opinion. A second set of eyes can offer valuable insight. Ordinarily, going to another, unbiased staff member would be preferable, but that's difficult if you feel there ''aren't'' any unbiased staff members.

I’ll admit this part of the post struck a chord with me, personally. In the past, I was repeatedly bullied and called horrible names by a member of wiki staff, in a series of IRC private messages which began under the guise of a reprimand for misbehaviour. This bully had been on the site far longer than I had, and was a well-established member of the community; I was the same age at the time as Fullerton is now, and I had no idea how to react. I firmly hold that distributing the logs of those discussions was the right thing to do, even if it was a technical violation of the rules; it meant that others were able to tell me that yes, this was something inappropriate and no, I wasn’t at fault. People in authority are not above authority. The user in question was ultimately blocked, which should tell you all you need to know. Transparency of moderator behaviour is important to ensure fairness and equality.

''"Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers."'' In other words, anyone who disagrees with the actions taken by the moderation staff - even if those actions have no written basis and are made up on the fly - should be blacklisted regardless of prior behaviour. Good to know.

''"Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business."'' This one speaks for itself, I think, as to the contempt some current staff members hold for the users they preside over, but I'd like to quote the page on [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]] anyway:

''"All editors' opinions should be given equal weight. In particular, administrators do not have inherently greater authority than other editors. Because of their greater experience with the UESPWiki, administrators may have more knowledge of how content is currently organized on the site, or be able to refer to similar examples on other wiki pages. Therefore, administrators (and experienced editors) may be able to provide more support for their position. Their reasoning, rather than their status, may therefore cause their opinion to influence a discussion."'' Ahem.

''"The reason we created (the #dungeon) is to have time to let all moderators give input."'' Some of the moderators on the Discord server were not, in fact, elected by the wiki community at all. Yet they're being treated - and are behaving - as though they were not only administrators, but final arbiters of justice. Are staff who were given their positions with no input from the people they're supposed to be moderating really qualified to do so?

These quotes all illustrate a wider lack of accountability by the staff members to the community as a whole. Other examples of bad practice can be seen in instances where [[Skyrim_talk:Proudspire_Manor#Transclusion_to_Houses|consensus is reached]] [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|on Discord with no input]] from the wider editor base, the argument being made that anyone who wants to partake in discussions should simply use Discord, or in Dillon deciding to make [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Discord&diff=1697969&oldid=1696580 significant changes to the guidelines] by removing the part which said that all staff members were equal in the channel with absolutely no discussion at all. The fallout from that little change was the creation of a "non-staff patroller" role, once again without any discussion, which was allocated to certain blacklisted users. Unsurprisingly, no mention of this distinction is made on the page.

If we go further back, we can see [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans|AKB unilaterally deleting the block logs]] page, on the basis that it “serves no purpose.” I beg to differ in the strongest possible terms, and I know I’m not the only one. I was told in the channel that the reason for this decision was actually because it was inconvenient to keep it updated; judging by Alarra’s post above, that narrative has been amended retroactively.

Another problematic aspect of the channel was the consistent jeering, mocking and snide remarks by the staff about a specific, very active wiki editor, behind his back. Since I haven't preserved the logs of this bullying, and since it took place publicly only on occasion, with the majority of the vitriol being espoused in a private channel by the administrative staff, it doesn't particularly serve as evidence, but I certainly wasn't the only person to witness it. As far as I know the user who was the subject of these taunts is still unaware that this ever occurred, or that he was frequently the butt of the administration’s jokes.

I myself was also mocked, publicly, by an administrator after I left the UESPWiki server; several users I shared servers with told me separately that I had been “dissed” by someone who was supposedly a role model. That’s not on. As Lady N so succinctly put it, this is about people ''“who (have) been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.”''

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. The recent behaviour of some members has been the opposite of that. You’re there to serve the community, not to rule over it. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 02:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:Again I want to comment about the accusations that are held against Discord. There are so many points now that I have no time (now) to discuss them, but [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|this]] link you shared @KitKat shows the contrary of what you are arguing. One: it was an edit that added a merge ''proposal''. Two: it was brought to the wiki ''because'' it was something that should reach consensus here and not on Discord. It is impossible to keep all ideas and brainstorming on the wiki when there is another chat platform available and I don't see the problem with asking input and refining ideas before making edits (Most edits are already made without any pre-knowledge of other editors, only larger ideas and problems are brought to the talk pages and/or community portal and this is/should still be the case if Discord is used as a mediator). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 03:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::Because one of my edits was mentioned specifically, I'd like to respond to that. The edit to UESPWiki:Discord was simply to reflect the current setup of the roles and channels at that time. I did not intend to change any guidelines, and if I did it was a mistake. I can definitely understand having a discussion on the talk page first before making major changes to the staff roles on Discord. However, these changes were already decided (and not by me personally) when I made that edit so I was updating outdated information. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Could you point me to the discussion held on the wiki (ie; on the [[UESPWiki_talk:Discord|talk page]] for the Discord server, the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|Admin Noticeboard]], or the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|Community Portal]]) where it was decided unanimously that all staff members on the server were no longer equal to one another? Because that's the sentence you removed: "There are three staff roles with equal standing" was amended so that it no longer stated each staff role was equal. That's a significant departure from the previous content of the page; when was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? And for that matter, why was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? You haven't said in your edit summary. As a patroller myself, I had and have a vested interest in this discussion, but I wasn't invited to participate at all. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 03:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I think you are misunderstanding the change. The staff-related permissions of Blocker, Patroller, Moderator, and Officer were merged into the Staff role. Patroller gives access to the #patrolling channel, but otherwise the roles serve only to identify ranks outside Discord. I removed the "equal standing" bit because the result was a single staff role and equal standing is redundant when you have one role. As for admins being above regular staff, the sentence was referring to the four previous staff roles, not admins and staff together. It was already the case that admins were above staff and my edit did not change that. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::Yes, but some members who currently have the "Staff" role '''aren't actually blockers or patrollers'''. They have no elevated role on the wiki or the forums. They can't block people or patrol things, even if they want to. Having this multifaceted role denoting permissions which they don't, in reality, possess, is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the administration as a whole. It's also needlessly confusing.

:::::'''EDIT''': You said that "these changes were already decided (and not by me personally)," yet '''you''' made the edit. At whose behest were these changes made, please, and why didn't they edit it themselves? [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 04:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T04:00:59Z

Kitkat1749: We're getting off topic here.

[[Category:Message Boards]][[Category:UESP Administration]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<div style="float:right">{{Scrolling Archive Table|class=collapsible collapsed|height=225px|width=300px
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 1|Archive 1|February 2005 – June 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 2|Archive 2|June 2006 – August 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 3|Archive 3|September 2006 – June 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 4|Archive 4|June 2007 – July 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 5|Archive 5|August 2007 – October 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 6|Archive 6|October 2007 – November 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 7|Archive 7|December 2007 – January 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 8|Archive 8|January 2008 – February 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 9|Archive 9|February 2008 – August 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 10|Archive 10|September 2008 – October 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 11|Archive 11|November 2008 – December 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 12|Archive 12|December 2008 – March 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 13|Archive 13|April 2009 – December 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14|Archive 14|January 2010 – May 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 15|Archive 15|June 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 16|Archive 16|June 2010 – October 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 17|Archive 17|November 2010 – January 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 18|Archive 18|February 2011 – April 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 19|Archive 19|May 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 20|Archive 20|June 2011 – August 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 21|Archive 21|September 2011 – October 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 22|Archive 22|November 2011 – December 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 23|Archive 23|December 2011 – February 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 24|Archive 24|February 2012 – March 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25|Archive 25|April 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 26|Archive 26|May 2012 – June 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 27|Archive 27|July 2012 - August 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 28|Archive 28|August 2012 - October 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 29|Archive 29|October 2012 - December 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 30|Archive 30|January 2013 - March 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 31|Archive 31|March 2013 - June 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 32|Archive 32|July 2013 - November 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 33|Archive 33|December 2013 - February 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 34|Archive 34|March 2014 - August 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 35|Archive 35|August 2014 - November 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 36|Archive 36|November 2014 - September 2015
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 37|Archive 37|March 2015 - February 2016
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 38|Archive 38|March 2016 - May 2017
}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}</div>
The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions.

'''Before starting a discussion here,''' please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.
{{Example Table|
Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
{{Bullet Link|[[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|Policies and Guidelines]]|A category listing of policies and guidelines, which each have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies (see [[#Active Discussions|Active Discussions]] for links to active policy discussions).}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism]]| Discussions regarding vandalism and spam.}}
{{Bullet Link|Community Portal|The main discussion forum used for community-wide discussions about UESP's operations, policies, design, and improvement.}}
{{Bullet Link|Reference Desk|This is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.}}
{{Bullet Link|Community Portal/Templates|Technical issues regarding templates and related issues can be discussed on this page.}}
Specific requests can be made on these pages:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Bot Requests|Bot Requests]]|This page can be used to request that one of the wiki's bots take on a task.}}
{{Bullet Link|Image Requests|You can request specific images for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|Creation Kit Information Requests|You can request specific Creation Kit information for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|New Page Requests|You can request a new page here if you were prevented from creating the page yourself.}}
{{Bullet Link|Purge Requests|If you are having problems viewing an article on UESP, the page may need to be purged. New purge requests can be made here.}}
In addition, past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard can be found at:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives#Chronological_Archives|AN Archives]]|Lists all of the past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard, including major discussions and chronological archives.}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives#Past_Administrative_Requests|Past Administrative Requests]]|A list of all previous requests for administrator and other administrative requests.}}
}}

== Getting redirected to mobile pages ==

After some debugging I've reached the conclusion that this is happening because of the Squid cache server you use: a user visits a page from his mobile phone, and the mobile version of the page gets cached in the Squid server. The next person who loads the page gets the mobile version, regardless of what platform he's browsing from, because that's what's saved in the Squid cache.

This only happens to unregistered users, since logged in users don't have their caches paged by Squid. If it happens to you, you can press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Squid to bypass its own cache and serve you the current page.

But, please, fix it. It is very annoying. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 17:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the note...this shouldn't be the case as the desktop and mobile versions of the page are different URLS (en.uesp.net and en.m.uesp.net) but a quick test seems to agree with you. I'll check it out further and see if it can be fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::So I must have got really lucky with my quick tests as I can't recreate the issue in on other page or with the original page (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa) once I purge it. If you can give some more explicit examples of how you are testing it so we can replicate that would be great. Squid does cache using the full URL so it would seem that this is not the complete issue at the very least. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::One of your assumptions is wrong. All users get the mobile theme from en.uesp.net, provided they have the user-agent of a mobile browser.
:::A quick way to reproduce this with a computer would be like this. '''Do all of this while logged off!'''
:::* Open Google Chrome and hit F12, this will open the developer tools toolbox. At the top-left side of this toolbox, the second icon next to the mouse cursor is a mobile and a tablet ("Toggle device toolbar"), click it. You'll see the current page has stretched; click the dropdown on top of it that says "Responsive" and switch it to some mobile phone, "Galaxy S5" is OK. Now, you're sending the user-agent of a Samsung mobile phone.
:::* Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa -- depending on who visited it the last time, it'll be the full or the mobile version.
:::* Press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Chrome to reload the page, telling the web server to completely disregard the cache. This will make Squid destroy its own cache and ask MediaWiki for the webpage. You'll see the mobile version appear as it should: MediaWiki is being told you're a mobile phone, and therefore you're getting the wiki with the mobile theme.
:::* Open a new tab. This time, it's the normal browser; you're not pretending to be a mobile. Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa You'll get the mobile version of the wiki. This confirms it's cached in Squid like that because you just visited it from a mobile phone. Press Ctrl+Shift+R, this way Squid will destroy its cache and ask MediaWiki again for the webpage. You'll get the full version, because you have the user-agent of a computer.
:::* Switch back to the mobile tab. Click the URL field and press enter to reload the webpage making sure you're '''not''' bypassing the Squid cache. You'll get the full version of the page, because that's what you cached. If you press Ctrl+Shift+R again from here, you'll get the mobile version.
:::* And so on.
:::I hope you can reproduce it. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 18:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::::Ahh, that was it. For some reason the "autodetect" portion was still on. I turned that off and have to figure out how to auto-redirect mobile devices to the mobile site (which I thought it was doing). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I made some changes which include a forced redirect to the mobile site to prevent the cache poisoning. Give it a go and see if that works for you now or not. It seems that MobileFrontEnd doesn't redirect itself and it is handled by another part of MediaWiki or the HTTP server in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::tyvm. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::Well, I have just realised this keeps happening. The only difference now is that instead of the whole mobile page being cached, what's cached is the redirect to en.m.uesp.net, but the effect is the same. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 11:04, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Of course it does...:) I made a quick change to try and prevent Squid from caching the 302 redirect. Once again it "seems" to work in a few quick tests but if you find otherwise let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Also had to make an unrelated change in order to get HTTPS to work for the mobile changes so the "en.m.uesp.net" mobile sites are no longer going through Squid which prevents them from being cached at all (at least for the moment until I can figure out multiple SSL certificates in Squid 2.x). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}Starting a new line - i have noticed that this has started happening again recently. (Like before, its fairly annoying, as it autochanges every time). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Testing New Ad Network ==

I happened to have a chat with some from Curse recently who mentioned that they run an ad network for gaming related sites which includes better vetting of ads to reduce/eliminate the number of "bad ads" (auto scrolling, auto playing, inappropriate content, etc...). I've signed up for a 2 month test run with them to supply all the ads on UESP during this time. I'm setting it up this week so except a bunch of changes from day to day. I'm hoping this give us roughly the same revenue to keep the site running and reduce user frustration with ads.

If you run into page errors or ad issues of any kind don't hesitate to let me know (Curse ads are not yet active). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:I'm sure a lot of people will be happy if it is an improvement. Some others will be happier with the new puns available (including the ability to Curse ads). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

::In a confused second I found myself looking for the "Like" button to express my support. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 20:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if this is an error, but as of today, AdBlock blocks ads but leaves a blank space at the top where the ad was, instead of collapsing that blank space. I'm also seeing ads at the top when logged in (or a blank space if AdBlock is enabled), but I have not logged in for a while so I don't know if that is new or was intentionally changed. '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►t]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►e]] 14:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

::::I have the same blank space as Vely, however I don't see any ads at all and I don't even have an ad blocker. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm not one to complain about blank spaces if they are caused by ad-blockers, but I've just tested with Chrome and Opera (as well as my use of Firefox) and the blank spaces at both the top and bottom are persisting when the inbuild blockers are active. The blank space can be rather off-putting and looks odd, so something should be done, whether removing it or putting one of those explanatory messages about why ads are needed. Feels odd to be cursing the lack of ads. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I did not even know there was an inbuilt blocker in Chrome, and I have certainly not actively turned it on. (Where is the setting for that?) Still there are these blank spaces on the top and bottom of the articles where the ads were supposed to be. How can this ad network give any revenue if the more common browsers are blocking the ads by default? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:My mistake, Chrome is planning to add one (by next year), I thought they already had one. Without my installed one the ads appear, with it blank spaces. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

::All the more an issue. The ads are not there on my Chrome. Just an empty space over the article and an empty space under it. And I have no known adblock software. The ads are there with Edge. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 17:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I have got the ads now, with no change in my settings. (Still Chrome on Win10) —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 05:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As a temporary workaround for the top ad taking up space when it shouldn't, I've added a means of suppressing that specific ad altogether. To do so, just add <code>#topad { display:none; }</code> to [[Special:Mypage/common.css|your common.css]] page on a new line. See [[User:RobinHood70/common.css|mine]] if you want an example. A few provisos: only logged-in users can do this, since IP users can't customize their CSS (at least, not via the wiki), and this may change or be removed at any point, since it's not an ideal long-term solution and it will obviously depend whether we want to keep the new ads in the long-run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless I'm missing something this isn't active wiki-wide nor have I touched my cs, yet the top space is gone. I've logged in and out, and on both Firefox and Opera the space is gone, though it remains on Chrome (no adblocker). Perhaps it just needed a purge with the new ads? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

::Somehow, I'm not really surprised, even though nothing I did should have had that effect. There have been a lot of different reports of ads, space, or nothing, with no apparent rhyme or reason. Caching of some kind could well be part of the problem. At least for those who are just getting a big blank space, this'll let them get rid of it. I'm largely leaving the rest to Dave, though, because I don't actually know what all was involved with the new ads, and there's clearly things affecting them that I'm unaware of, so I didn't want to poke around too much. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Can we go back to the old ads please? Or at the very least block the ones with autoplaying videos. I've been getting those on every other page, and you'll probably go deaf if you dare open more than 2 tabs. There's no way to report them, and I don't think the Steam Overlay browser supports any adblockers. [[Special:Contributions/98.18.163.16|98.18.163.16]] 00:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I see all these postings about video ads, but I can not seem to have registered any of them myself. Are there wide variations on who gets them and not? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 13:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect Escaping Issue ==

This is probably a pretty specific issue, but when you search with the <code>!uesp</code> bang on DuckDuckGo, it sends you to e.g. <code>www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim:skyrim&...</code> which gets 301 redirected to the appropriate language subdomain such as <code>en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim%253Askyrim&...</code>, but the search field seems to get double URL encoded in the process, so when it gets decoded after the redirect, colons show up as <code>%3A</code> in the search field and there's no results. This also happens with spaces, turning them into <code>%20</code>, so the search is basically unusable via the DDG bang. Hopefully this can be fixed, as it would otherwise be super convenient! [[User:DuBistKomisch|DuBistKomisch]] ([[User talk:DuBistKomisch|talk]]) 15:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

:This appears to be a problem with their coding, as it also fails when using it to search wikipedias subnamespaces. It appears they are using hex codes when converting, rather than the standard html codes used on mediawikis. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

== beyondskyrim.uesp.net? ==

I'd like to bring up the issue of this new wiki and point editors towards [http://beyondskyrim.uesp.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page this discussion]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless Dave has given his permission that wiki is infringing on our name and our site/servers. I don't believe it has permission seeing as it makes no sense to have a separate wiki on the same site, detracting from the main one, and it is duplicating the layout by wikipedia and not here. I can't see any links for contacting the site owners but if they are the same people as the ones editing here I suggest they either cease and desist or let it be known that they have dave's permission to use his servers. I've emailed Daveh, as others probably have too, to get this sorted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's hosted by us/Dave, apparently at the request of the mod authors. However, I also agree that it's damaging to our own Tes5Mod documentation to set up a competing wiki. If we're hosting it, it should be on our platform. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::: First of all, there's definitely no infringement issues, as it was set up by Dave together with one of the Beyond Skyrim team leaders. I hope Dave doesn't mind me posting this, but here's the discussion between myself and him after the BS developers concluded that they wanted to ditch their unused wiki at Dark Creations:
<pre>
Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Have you ever considered hosting other Elder Scrolls fan wikis?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
What other ES fan wikis?

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
The Beyond Skyrim guys are apparently looking to move their wiki out of Dark Creations.

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Ahh, I see
We could definitely host that for them if they'd like
We've hosted a bunch of small fan sites over the years.
TamrielRebuilt is one the larger ones (no longer with us but we had it for a while).

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Don't we still have TR stuff in the TES3Mod namespace? Or are they not using it any more?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Not sure what we have on the wiki, but they had their own web site/dev wiki seperate from ours.
I think we have some general info in the UESP wiki.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Ah OK.
Well thanks for the offer of hosting, I'll pass that on to them and see what they say!

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Yup, that goes for any ES site that happens to need hosting, temporary or otherwise.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Hmm, I will endeavour to remember that :smiley:
27 June 2017
</pre>
:::Now personally, if Dave is happy with the concept, then so am I, and since the BS wiki ''itself'' is a product of the BS team, then I don't think the UESP wiki administration has any say on whether it actually exists or not. The alternative would be that it's just hosted somewhere else. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: The Tamriel Rebuilt content we host is in-depth and high-standard, and includes the [[Tes4Mod:Stirk|Stirk Oblivion mod]] in addition to the main [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|TES3 project]] which is still updated by members of the modding team and UESP editors alike. The Tamriel Rebuilt [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ website] mentioned in the conversation above is not a (public) wiki. This Beyond Skyrim website, on the other hand, is in direct competition with UESPWiki. As you said, its existence is a decision for the modding team, but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to our own BS documentation if this goes ahead. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 18:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::The logic of having a semi-competing public wiki hosted on the same server wasn't really the concern for me. My concern was whether it had permission to be there and if it does then that's fine. There's not really any notes about what the wiki is for, or how it intends to avoid duplicity with existing content here (unless of course it intends to duplicate sections of the main wiki). This may all be due to it being in its infancy, but someone must surely have anticipated the anxiety such a wiki would create upon its creation and sought to allay any concerns by being open and upfront about its existence. The users on this wiki have always been concerned about the use of our materials without proper attribution or permission, and with good cause, so to see a new wiki using our name with no apparent endorsement was very concerning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::From the BS team's perspective, the draw for having a separate wiki over making use of Tes5Mod space was so that they had direct administrative control over it and were not bound by any of the UESP restrictions on what is actually allowed in modspace. The draw for them being hosted on the UESP server was ''intended'' to be to foster cross-cooperation between the two wikis; they get a spot on the server of a well-respected Elder Scrolls fansite, we get links from them for documentation of the primary Skyrim gameplay aspects, which they then don't need to duplicate as they are mostly unchanged, and it frees us from having to consider how to document Beyond Skyrim in the '''Depth over Breadth''' category because we know there's a dedicated wiki specifically for that purpose.

::::::For the end user, the result is essentially the same; if they're here looking for Beyond Skyrim, they'll start off at either [[General:Beyond Skyrim]] or a root page in Tes5Mod (yet to be created). From there, if we have all the content ourselves, they will either end up navigating through numerous subpages of that one Tes5Mod root page, or if we link to the BS wiki, they'll be navigating through the pages there. As long as they can find what they're looking for, I don't really think they'll care whether it says "UESPWiki" or "Beyond Skyrim Wiki" at the top. Beyond that, anyone who enters the BS wiki from other entry points, such as the official BS website, would see the close relationship with UESP and may then be inclined to visit us as well. If they were off on their own, that connection wouldn't be there.

::::::Being labelled as the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" rather than hidden away as the n'th mod covered by UESP also allows them some legitimacy, as I have always believed that there is less support for the creation of unofficial wikis on a topic if a specific community has a designated official one. I would say therefore that the UESP being the hosts of the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" shouldn't really be considered a detriment to us. The fact that Beyond Skyrim even considered the option of having UESP host their official wiki should speak volumes about how much the wider Elder Scrolls community values us as an Elder Scrolls site, and the fact that UESP/Dave agreed to host their official wiki was certainly met with a very positive reception when it was announced to the Beyond Skyrim team.

::::::So with that in mind, I would like to suggest that we act like the gracious hosts that I thought we were, and we show support for the Beyond Skyrim team and their official wiki. Beyond Skyrim needs to be documented, and they have somewhere for that to be done. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the wiki's URL is broken, and beyondskyrim.uesp.net is not intended. For all technical domain purposes, it is supposed to be wiki.beyondskyrim.org, but the certification isn't ready. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The initial talk page I linked to above has been deleted, so I suppose this discussion will have to happen UESP-side (as it should have from the start). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

: It might be worth mentioning that the uesp wiki will also have pages on us just like there are for Tamriel Rebuilt (our community was founded via Tamriel rebuilt members). The fact that the url for this new wiki contains uesp is temporary and because I haven't bought the certificates yet to use the wiki.beyondskyrim.org and devwiki.beyondskyrim.org url. {{uns|Meliodas|23:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)}}

:: So I've discussed the purpose of the public BS wiki with Meliodas at length and it doesn't appear to have very much overlap at all with our potential coverage. I'd therefore like to suggest that we limit our coverage to the released mods (currently only Bruma), which is exactly how we handle TR releases. The BS wiki is much larger in scope, and in hindsight I realise it was unfair to label it as competition since its focus is inherently different. Does this work for everyone? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

::: Sounds good to me! Seems I may have misinterpreted the purpose of the public BS wiki all along. Or perhaps its true purpose was yet to be decided, and with the hype of the Bruma release I was rushing to a conclusion that was not ready to be reached. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Agreed! It seems we have come to a solution that is good for all involved parties. --[[User:Meliodas|Meliodas]] ([[User talk:Meliodas|talk]]) 01:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach PTS ==

A little late on this update since I just got back from vacation...fortunately it is a smaller content DLC.

:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15pts Files] -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

: Awesome! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Namespace Proposal ==

If we are to be documenting the content of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]], starting with the release of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Bruma|Beyond Skyrim: Bruma]] which just came out, I think it would be beneficial to set up some pseudo-namespaces for that information, similar to what was done with [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]]. A slight difference in format here is that each province is being developed as a separate mod, unlike TR3 where everything is part of the same one, so ideally we will need pseudo-namespaces for each one of those. Right now though, all that is released is Bruma, which is part of the Cyrodiil province. So following the layout of [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] (thanks for the link, RH), I would like to propose a namespace for [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil]]:

<pre>
# NS_BASE ; NS_ID ; NS_PARENT ; NS_NAME ; NS_MAINPAGE ;
Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; BS5C ; Skyrim ; Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ;

NS_CATEGORY ; NS_TRAIL
Tes5Mod-Beyond Skyrim-Cyrodiil ; [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]
</pre>

Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:I'm not sure we need to create pseudo-namespaces for every partial release of Beyond Skyrim, particularly if we are not going to document it to the same extent as Tamriel Rebuilt due to it having its own wiki for that level of detail. I don't see any reason not to set this up at least for at least Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm leaning towards Silencer's thinking at the moment, but a lot depends on just how much documentation you're expecting, and how you intend to organize it. It makes a lot of sense to have everything under a single pseudo-namespace of Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim, so you can have parent-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Main</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Places</tt>) as well as sub-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>). But if there really isn't a need for parent-project pages, then that's just going to lead to a page structure that's all sub-project pages anyway (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Black Marsh/Places</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>), and having each different subspace defined might make more sense in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::The province mods are completely separate, just like the games in the Elder Scrolls series itself. Beyond Skyrim is an umbrella, not a project in its own right, and each mod will have its own partial releases (which is why all links from BS: Bruma already go to pages under BS: Cyrodiil). I think that format would indeed all be double-sub pages, because there would be no need for a BS/Places (if it existed, it would be ''very'' long). The level of detail we should be documenting here is pretty much the same as what we have for Tamriel Rebuilt; quests, places, NPCs, and all gameplay stuff. Conversely, the Beyond Skyrim wiki is the equivalent of lorespace, not a gamespace, and that's the sort of stuff we don't have for TR, because the depths of TR lore are on their own website at the [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/tr-handbook TR Handbook]. For a parallel, if we were to ever document the [http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/44922/? Province: Cyrodiil] mod for Morrowind, we would likely do that with a "Province: Cyrodiil" pseudospace, not a "Project Tamriel" pseudospace, because PC is a mod in its own right despite being under the PT banner. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Enodoc's suggestion sounds sensible to me: separate mods, separate pseudo-namespaces. "Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil/Places" is a bit of a mouthful but it works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that makes sense then. I just finished implementing it. Let me know if there are any issues. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spambot? ==

Not quite sure what to do with [[Special:Contributions/122.173.186.102|this IP]]. It added a corporate LinkedIn link but reverted it. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 05:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

:It's still spam, but perhaps a less severe penalty, maybe just a warning (something for future reference to know that IP has spammed before if the next move is done). Also remove the edits from public view as most spam and vandalism is these days. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Following the link provided, this company is very obviously going to be aware of social media and how it works, so my feeling is that it's a sneaky type of advertising. They know the change will be looked at, even if it's reverted. For that reason alone, I'd suggest revision deletion, and otherwise treat it like any other spammer. If it's only a one-off occurrence, there's not much point in blocking the IP, but we should keep our eyes open for similar behaviour in the near future, whether from that IP or another IP/account. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 16:09, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Account Creation Spam ==

Recently, bots or users have been making it through our captcha check and creating numerous new user accounts. Over the course of the day today, I've tried tweaking the captcha several times, starting with minor changes to the algorithm, then getting a bit more elaborate this last time. Each time, it has been followed within moments by what appear to be new random accounts. This suggests that either there's human involvement in the creations or that the bot is very broad ranging and won't be deterred short of a major change in approach. I could change to a different style of question captcha, or a different captcha completely, but if it's an actual human creating these accounts, that would be a waste of time.

For those who are wondering, they're all coming from completely different IP addresses, and most are using different naming styles, so neither blocking nor title-blocking will be terribly effective. As someone pointed out on the wiki, it's possible that some of these are non-editing accounts that are intended only to use the ESO Build Editor or just to save settings, but I'm not sure that would account for the number of accounts we're seeing, and some of the names seem really spammy in nature. It's hard to say with absolute certainty, though.

In the short term, there's not much to be done that I haven't already. In the long term, however, there are a few potential options, though most have some kind of problem associated with them:
# Put up with it, knowing a vandal could use these accounts to launch a bot attack from multiple accounts at once or in quick succession, potentially becoming a distributed denial-of-service attack (which has never happened, so not likely a big threat). In terms of not locking out legitimate users, this is probably the safest option.
# Require patroller/admin creation of all new accounts. This has several issues, the biggest being that either a communal e-mail box would have to be maintained for these applications, or some other simple mechanism of applying would have to be created. It's also possible that spammer(s) would just continue a variation of what they're doing now, and simply flood the system with requests.
# Create an extension to delete the accounts if they go completely unused and aren't logged into for X days. MediaWiki wasn't really designed with the idea of deleting users, though it is possible. The danger is that a bug in the program could delete legitimate data. Plus, it would require Dave or I to program it in the first place, since I don't see any extension that would work on a large-scale basis. (The only one I found is intended to completely wipe a single user from the database within certain limitations.)
# Switch login/account creation systems completely. The current recommended method is [http://openid.net/what-is-openid/ OpenID], which has a MediaWiki [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenID|extension]] available. That would limit a spammer's ability to create accounts based on having OpenID accounts available, but then it also requires that a real user have an OpenID account. Most do, mind you, whether they realize it or not, since it's linked with numerous common services like Google and Facebook. Of course, that's still potentially prone to abuse, depending on the spammer's ability to get around any given service's account-spam prevention. This would be entirely up to Dave to install, and may cost money...it wasn't entirely clear.

In the past, we've generally gone for option #1, but given the complaints on Discord about the wave of new user accounts, I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion again. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

:Given the relative lack of vandalism or spam by new user accounts I would be very wary of escalating a problem that doesn't ''appear'' to exist. Besides today I have not seen a huge amount (certainly not above "normal" numbers) of new accounts that would be worrying, but I know that a significant percentage of these accounts are by spam-bots that are simply getting blocked by the abuse filter, so do not ''appear'' to be what they are. As far as I can tell, we are also one of the cleanest open wikis on the net, as we've always had diligent recent changes monitors. The recent extreme vandalism is also very very rare, and we won't see the like for a long time once we are past it, certainly not enough to make me think there was something wrong with our account making process (well besides not having blocked the username "Administrator" from use). I thought the whole think was rather contained in nature, with our new Blockers having a hand in stemming the abuse. Option 2 for me is a non-starter, I think the amount of requests would far outweigh the capability of looking at and deciding the merits of them all, plus it removes the idea that we have an "open" wiki, because even if you still didn't need to log in to edit, you would need our "permission" to "join". Option 3 should be left alone too. The reason mediawiki chooses not to allow deletion is because every edit is tied to an account/IP, and deleting them means that the edit no longer has verifiability. While this is not the intention of such a program, the possibility should be locked in a vat of toxic waste and tossed into the Sun. There are problems associated with mass-deletion of vandalism from the history of pages (namely proof of the vandalism), and there will be even more problems with deletion of accounts where there is no proof of maliciousness. I just don't like Option 4, as it ties us to another site/group. It also appears that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo have abandoned it, with the only major user being PayPal. I just don't like the idea of requiring someone to have an account on another site in order to join here, though perhaps we should think of allowing people on Facebook and Google+ to associate their accounts here, and/or have the ''choice'' to use them to log in here.
:The last option still wants to improve our creation process, but it's hard to see how with any captcha as they are always vulnerable to bots. The latest method is two-factor authentication using a phone. This, as far as I can tell, requires human interaction. Required two-factor authentication either via email or phone, is one step that doesn't infringe on our openness, as the likelihood of a potential user not having one or the other is probably zero. If at all possible we could also incentivise it by reducing the time and/or amount of edits required before gaining full freedoms to edit. PS, no idea if that would affect account creation by logged in users, but obviously try to avoid it if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just to clarify, for option #3, I was referring to accounts that have no edit history whatsoever, including any deleted edits or abuse history. Also, even though it isn't required to edit, e-mail verification is already being done by the bots in many cases. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach (Update 15) Release ==

The usual file/data updates for HOTR DLC will be posted below:

:* uespLog Addon -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.20!]]
:* Achievements -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated!]
:* Champion Points -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php Updated!]
:* Skills and Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php Updated!] and double-checked
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Maps -- Nothing to update.
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15/ Uploaded!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done!]
:* Books -- Done! (upload in files and updated database)

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 13:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Is there a process for requesting the <samp>autopatrolled</samp> bit? I do a lot of typo fixing and Style Guide compliance edits, and I think the minor edit stream is annoying to patrollers. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:The process is documented at [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled Users]]. The short of it is: those with patroller permissions <s>get tired of patrolling your edits</s> notice that your edits are usually good, and nominate you to become autopatrolled. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Noted. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 21:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Mine arent fully good yet, at least not until I learn all the differences in templates/procedure. (So apologies to the patrollers in the meantime. I [[Special:Contributions/Timeoin|tend to post a lot]]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:10, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

== Site issues ==

Noticing some major issues this morning - Did we upgrade the wiki software recently or something? All of the sidebar stuff is gone, and I can no longer upload images - also the image upload page no longer lists the licenses in the licensing drop box. In addition, the UESP-specific options that usually appear below the edit window are also gone. Seems like all hidden site pages have been completely reset to defaults. The site would not let me post edits due to "loss of session data", and suggested logging out and back in, and when I did so, it would not let me log back in, claiming I had cookies disabled, which I do not. This occurs on both of my computers. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? - [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 13:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

:Okay, not sure if somebody did something, but a couple hours later, it seems to be working again. Not sure what was up with that... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 15:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::The site was down two Saturdays ago (the 19th August) in the morning, but completely down, not just not displaying properly. Not sure if its relevant but the coincidental timing is there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::: Daveh said on Discord it was due to memcached crashing every Saturday morning. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City PTS ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS. This update may take longer for me since I'm dealing with a newborn most hours of the day so if you're looking for something in particular just let me know.

:* uespLog Addon -- Seems to be working fine on PTS so far.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps - Done! I've added a link to Clockwork city from the base Mundus map but all other locations still need to be added.
:* Skills -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

:Hey Dave, the uploaded icons.zip appears to be only about 2/3 complete. Some folders are missing and it's ~70MB instead of the usual ~90MB. Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks...fixed! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== User Rename ==

Renamed Nephmir to [[User:Starkiller131|Starkiller131]] per their request. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Gift Brainstorming ==

Every year, usually around Christmas time, I like to give out an ES/UESP related gift to thank the site's contributors and fans. For example, last year we did the Tamriel map posters. In deciding what to do this and following years I'm looking for suggestions on what we could do. For now don't worry about the details too much and let your imaginations run wild. For some things there are potential issues like cost, shipping, and licensing issues but those can be dealt with once a gift project is actually chosen and started.

Some of my ideas to start with:

:* '''Coins''' -- I had some coins made for a summer camp project a few years ago and they are relatively easy/cheap with many different construction options.
:* '''Maps''' -- I love maps although since we did one last year there's no rush in doing another one. If we ever do another map I'd like to commission an artist to have a custom one drawn up for us.
:* '''UESP Merchandise''' -- Take just about anything from [http://vistaprint.ca VistaPrint] or similar sites with a UESP logo.
:* '''Books''' -- A more work intensive project but might be nice to see some of the better UESP pages/lore/art in a actual bound book.
:* '''3D Printing''' -- You can do a lot with 3D printing lately using models from games including character models or world spaces. Downside is that this is complex and relatively costly.
:* '''Replicas/Figurines''' -- The minimum order for a custom model is relatively low and within the realm of possibility. Licensing would be the main issue.
:* '''Posters''' -- You could make a poster of just about anything (ex: a nice game screenshot, lore articles, etc...).
:* '''Charity''' -- I like to give a little to charity each year when we can. Past recipients include World Vision, Charity: Water, and Child's Play. This would be in addition to the fan gift.

Looking forward to some of your ideas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

::The UESP Merchandise caught my eye, but its hard to see what would work. A mouse pad or t-shirt would not suit everyone, but perhaps a plate or glass or mug. I think my muffins would benefit in taste sitting on a plate with the logo. Another idea popped in my head when browsing vistaprint; a calendar. There are a couple of versions of the Tamriel calendar to pick from, and then pick 12 of our featured images to use for the months. You could keep it generic by leaving off the weekdays and just starting each on the first, or you could use next years dates to make it more usable. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Here is a collection of community comments I got on this:
:::*I like the idea of coins
:::*Ooh, what a really kind idea. I like the sound of coins too.
:::*I like coins
:::*Comission for a map would be really cool (I am still sad I didn't get one last time :frowning: )
:::*Illustrations and maps are neat
:::*Charity one is the best one
:::*I like the idea of posters, maps and figurines myself
:::*Coins or UESP merchandise. Seriously. I would LOVE a shirt with the UESP logo on it
:::*I also like the idea of coins
:::*I vote for shirts for the best idea now
:::*Maps are pretty gosh darn cool. You can put them on your wall and stuff. Coins are metal. It is harder to put them on walls. If this is a contest of wall-put-ability, I think maps win.
:::*I think artwork that feels like in-game product would be neat. Think a traveler's sketchbook with ink illustrations of creatures and whatnot
:::*Yeah kinda want one of those maps but maybe of all of Tamriel
:::*You know those life sized cardboard cut outs of LotR characters. Lets get those for Shadowscales. Scare the shit out of you whenever you enter your room and there is a shadow of an Argonian standing in the corner.
:::*3D Printing in-game models sounds awesome!
:::*I still like maps. Posters of iconic Vistas are cool too.
:::*As for charity. You go through TES able to kill the wildlife knowing that another will spawn... And another... And another... AND A-BLOODY-NOTHER!! Anyway, this isn't the case for the real world. Help give species a chance to up their spawn chances. As someone studying the animal sciences, I'd say the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust, as they're responsible for saving more species than any other organisation and training people in doing likewise.
:::*i think a picture of all the main races with a chunk of the province they're from behind them could make for a cool poster
:::*I would enjoy having an actual leather bound copy of an Elder Scrolls book. I may have to make one some day.
:::*like the idea of a figurine, Pelinal Whitestrake maybe?
:::*Coins and/or other in-universe memorabilia gets my vote
:::*I would adore some Septims.
:::*i wanted a big ass tamriel map for my wall last year, and i didnt got one. i even wanted to buy something like this but... no luck. maybe this year i can. soooo.. i will go with the map thing. Some septims would be nice too, tho.
:::--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I like the idea of UESP-branded wearables or coffee mugs. Wearables do have the issue of sizing and such that have to be accounted for, where mugs are fairly universal, so there's that to consider if you go for merchandise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::*I love and adore the idea of coins. The various coins which Bethesda and/or ZOS have produced to promote the various games are now collectors' items. I think we should avoid maps, because we Did That Last Year. The UESP Discord logo would look great on one side of a coin, with... I dunno, the head of Martin Septim on the back :P (Or Hermaeus-Mora, as the Guardian of Knowledge?) Can you also get writing along the edge? If so, UNOFFICIAL ELDER SCROLLS PAGES 2017 should go there :)
:::::*I would also support the idea of UESP merchandise, but I think this should be for us to purchase ourselves, e.g. through Spreadshirt. This would not make any money for the UESP, but would at least break even. In this way, we could get them in custom colours, with our UESP affiliation on. e.g. "UESP Wiki Admin" / "UESP Wiki Editor" / "UESP Forums Moderator" / "UESP Discord Admin" / "UESP Guildmaster" / "UESP Guild Officer" / "UESP Guild Member", etc. People with multiple affiliations could either position all of the text using Spreadshirt's layout tool, or pick their favourite one.
:::::*Mugs are also great, but would be super-expensive to post, even within Canada. Again, I think they should be for users to purchase themselves. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 08:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Minor Issue (Resolved) ==

As Alarra recently corrected [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Merdyndril&curid=167488&diff=1681627&oldid=1681624 here], there as a circumstance whereby they were attributed as being the author of [[ON:Message to Jena|Message to Jena]]. (See: [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Message_to_Jena&oldid=1681625 here]). The problem was that not only was it wrong, its wrong nowhere else. Except [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena right here]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
:An addendum, for clarity: there is little chance this was accidental. [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena?oldid=1894979 this was the date their page was created]. The Maulborn Cultist, [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Merdyndril?oldid=2264203 was not created until a year after]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 08:18, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::While it's likely that you're correct, this particular instance seems trivial. A note will, after all, be pretty much the same from one wiki to the next. It isn't like they copied an entire dungeon walkthrough wholesale, or used our images or what have you, at least not in this instance. For more significant instances, I believe Dave said he prefers to handle these issues himself, so I'd suggest e-mailing him or flagging him down on Discord. That policy may be out of date, though. If he refers you back to us, Atvelonis and I have spoken on occasion, so I'm happy to bring any concerns up with him if needed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::: Just to clarify Timeoin... you're complaining that Wikia copied the ''links'' of a UESP book page page on their own site's book page... back in 2015 (when you were still an admin over there and could have checked the page for plagiarism before you edited it).

::: Is this really of note for the AN board? Exactly what are you looking to achieve?

::: What I find odd is that when we were both admins on Wikia, you very rarely spoke up about the vast amounts of actual UESP plagiarism that was taking place there. I don't recall you ever reverting UESP content. It was left to the other admins to deal with. So why is it a concern now? You speak to Atvelonis on Discord, would it not make more sense to take it up with him?

::: I don't wish to start any drama, but you're clearly bitter about what happened to you over there. Which is why you're taking any opportunity get some sort of revenge. Be it the constant badmouthing, anonymous editing over there or threads like this. Its not healthy. Take it from someone who was in the same boat, but in a '''much''' worse position than you was - you need to move on. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::::Since I keeping getting pinged on Discord, here are my thoughts on the matter. Even if the UESP was the source of the mistake on Wikia, which is possible, I don't think that arguing over such a minuscule point is worth anyone's time. As others have stated above, it's just a link, and a pretty old one too. My inclination here would be to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]: it's entirely possible that same authorial assumption was made independently by users on both sites. Users add plagiarized UESP content to Wikia all the time, and I make an effort to catch this early on, especially when it comes to images. If you find something that is genuinely worth reporting, by all means inform me of it, but I don't think that being this pedantic helps anyone. —[[User:Atvelonis|Atvelonis]] ([[User talk:Atvelonis|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::::: I agree with Jimeeee. I apologise wholeheartedly. Also - I should not have pinged you, Atvelonis, and will not do so again. So ... yeah, please consider this closed? (Changed the header too - since that helps ''noone'') [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 17:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

== Move Request ==

Hello. Could an admin please move {{Deleted|Captain Velyna}} to [[Online:Captain Velya|Captain Velya]]? Velya is the proper in-game name. (Evidence: ESO Log Data). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 06:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:Could someone please also move {{deleted|ON:Domihaus (set)}} to [[ON:Domihaus|Domihaus]]? They are the same page. Thanks :) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 10:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

::I've merged Timeoin's second request because I want to make a general request that an admin start merging and deleting some pages that have been marked so. These actions can only be done by an admin, and there are a lot of duplicate pages sitting idle, as well as merge requests that haven't been done yet. Not doing these things is starting to cause a serious backlog of follow up actions, links to the wrong duplicate page appearing, as well as the confusion that is given by having empty pages being filled in when the information already exists elsewhere. There are dozens more pages I have identified as needing deleted, and have put off marking them so as to make it easier for an admin to do each page properly without knowing there are over 100 more pages marked for deletion (which there are). [[:Category:Marked for Deletion]], [[:Category:To Be Merged]]. PS A particular bugbear on merges for me is the Desolate Mine place and quest, marked for renaming by Legoless more than 2 years ago with no logical or given objection to it happening, yet no action taken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:11, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Bugbear slain. I started on the pages marked for deletion the other day, but that'll definitely take some time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Username Usurping ==

There was an account called "Zenith" made in 2009, with no contributions, and I was wondering whether I could usurp that username for a UESP account. {{unsigned|76.66.92.8|00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)}}
:Also worth noting is that this request was originally made on our Discord channel, where this user is already known as Zenith to the majority of the people on the server. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::I confirmed that the user hasn't logged in since 2009 and has no edit history, so I've gone ahead and renamed them. You may now create an account as Zenith. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City (Update 16) ==

Another ESO DLC is out today and so the usual round of updates:

:* uespLog -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.31]]! (1.31 has bug fix for guild store purchase bug)
:* Achievements --[http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated]! (new icons still need to be uploaded)
:* Skills -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills Updated]!
:* Skill Coeffients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php Done] (and checked)
:* Champion Points -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoCps Updated]!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16/ Uploaded]!
:* Books -- Done! (book text uploaded and updated in database)
:* Maps -- Done! (4 maps updated, still working on adding all locations)
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done]!
:* Items -- Done!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Translating Team for Italy ==

My friends and me would love to start translating UESP in italian.
We're good at english and we can write in HTML. We're 5 or 6 at the moment, but we can recruit more people with our skills.
I'm opening this discussion for everyone who's willing to take part in our project.
[[User:Undriel|Undriel]] ([[User talk:Undriel|talk]]) 00:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Count on me! [[User:Daffodill|Daffodill]] ([[User talk:Daffodill|talk]]) 01:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::I'd be happy to work on the italian translation [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 01:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::It sounds interesting [[User:Fenerevar|Fenerevar]] ([[User talk:Fenerevar|talk]]) 10:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm in. [[User:CurseMyName|CurseMyName]] ([[User talk:CurseMyName|talk]]) 11:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} There are no official steps to creating a translation project (the Portuguese one was a test) but unless there are any objections from admins I'll set it up in a few days once I've done most of the ESO updates from the latest DLC. Is there one person who is willing/able to take the lead/admin position for the project? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Thank you a lot. If the translation project will be approved I'll gladly take the admin position [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 10:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)LadyLigeia

{{od}} The Italian UESPWiki has been setup at [http://it.uesp.net/wiki/Pagina_principale it.uesp.net]...hopefully you can forgive the delay as I was focussed on some ESO work backlog last week. I've imported the MediaWiki and Template namespaces but nothing else at the moment. If you run into any issues on the new site let me know here or poke me at [mailto:dave@uesp.net dave@uesp.net]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

== Request for revocation of account rights. ==

After thinking over my ultimate place in the universe for a long, hard while, I've decided that this evening I'm ready to return to the UESPWiki and work on some of Jeancey's Morrowind Overhaul Project and give some love to my favorite game. I've also decided to do it without the pressure that I've always felt by being an active and regular member of staff, and I want to get back to just editing and enjoying myself.

After many long months of thinking about it on a self-imposed break, I've decided that I want to voluntarily relinquish all elevated user rights currently on my account, including my patroller rights, blocker rights, and any others that may exist that I've forgotten exist.

I am aware that, should I want them, I'll have to be renominated and be put up to a community vote again, but for the foreseeable future, I'm not at all interested in anything to do with them and I ask that an administrator handle this request at their first convenient moment, in accordance with my wishes.

Many thanks, -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 18:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Given that Damon has already qualified as a Patroller, I'd suggest that in conjunction with this request, we grant him autopatrolled status. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:: I've removed your Patroller and Blocker rights, Damon. I would support autopatrolled status if someone wants to make the [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled_Users#Nominations|nomination]]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I'll go ahead and do that, if Damon doesn't object. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

== 2018 Fan Gift ==

Christmas and the new year is quickly coming and I've been thinking about what to do for the UESP fan gift this year. I like the suggestion of a calendar made in the previous gift suggestion topic and am leaning strongly in that direction.

:* 2018 Year Calender
:* Can use Tamriel names for months and weekdays (or perhaps in addition to real names?)
:* Include both real and Tamriel holidays (make it obvious which is which?)
:* Artwork Could Be:
::* Fan Created
::* Screenshots
::* Composite (made up of Bethesda copyrighted images and others)
:: I'd rather stay away from using Bethesda original artwork to avoid the legal issues and would prefer the first 2 if we had the option.

Assuming people think this is a good idea I'd like to get started on choosing the 13 pieces of artwork for the calendar (12 months + title page) and the calendar details. Note that assuming we do a 10x17" wall calendar the artwork would have to be of reasonable size/quality.

Time flies so if we could decide on everything by the end of November that would permit printing by the start of December and hopefully shipping before Christmas. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

:What if the images were a selection of the UESP's Featured Images, where possible? We can throw together a quick vote of which ones look cooler for any particular month or season to match the feel of that time. Or move on to not-FI images if needed. Throw something [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|like this]] in for October and Halloween, for instance? Also, I would want the calendar to be completely Tamrielic, no Earthly times on it! -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 04:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, that's a good idea. I assume most (all?) of the Featured Images are screenshots correct? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Another quick thought...it may be a good idea to have several images per month composited together, especially if some of them are lower resolution. For example, we could group 3/4/5 Halloween related images for the month of October. So more options for each month would be a good thing. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've gone through the FI's and picked some that I think a more identifiable with the seasons/events. This is not a comprehensive list, a lot of the pure NPC/creature ones I left out as they are focused on that subject alone.

Winter 5: [[:File:SR-npc-Brelyna Maryon 03.jpg|Frost Atronach being summoned]], [[:File:SR-interior-Deepwood Redoubt 02.jpg|snow in a cave]], [[:File:DB-place-Edla's House.jpg|snow on a house]], [[:File:SR-creature-Ice Wraith.jpg|ice wraith with the moon over snowy mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-Alduin's Bane 02.jpg|dragons fighting on a snowy mountain]]

Spring 10: [[:File:ON-quest-The One That Got Away 02.jpg|sunrise over a lake]], [[:File:SR-place-Solitude.jpg|Solitude on a nice day]],
[[:File:ON-place-Alessia Bridge.jpg|sunny day (trees look autumny though)]], [[:File:ON-quest-Daughter of Seamount 02.jpg|sunny and cloudy day]], [[:File:SR-place-Druadach Mountains.jpg|the misty mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-The Cursed Tribe 02.jpg|a giant throwing a tantrum near some Orcs]], [[:File:SI-place-Mount Sheogorath Summit.jpg|colourful countryside]], [[:File:OB-quest-Alteration Training.jpg|bright day over a lake]], [[:File:MW-place-Lake Masobi.jpg|misty day over a lake]], [[:File:OB-quest-A Brush with Death 02.jpg|vivid trolls]]

Easter, only 1: [[:File:OB-quest-Bear Season.jpg|the anti-Easter message (bears eat sheep)]]

Summer 5: [[:File:MW-place-Ghostfence.jpg|the dust near Ghostfence]], [[:File:ON-place-Weeping Giant.jpg|stone giant taking a nap]], [[:File:ON-place-Upper Craglorn.jpg|a sunny river]], [[:File:OB-quest-Go Fish.jpg|a fish with big teeth on a sunny day]], [[:File:MW-place-Nchuleftingth.jpg|A sunny day over Nchuleftingth]]

Autumn 5: [[:File:ON-place-Windmill (Davon's Watch).jpg|windmill with moons between spokes]], [[:File:SR-quest-Dawnguard (quest).jpg|vampires with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:SR-quest-Robber's Gorge.jpg|bandits with the aurora borealis and a moon]], [[:File:SR-place-Shrine of Azura 02.jpg|Azura's statue with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:OB-quest-Peryite.jpg|Peryite's statue at night]]

Halloween 4: [[:File:SR-npc-Ancano 08.jpg|some eerie magical swirls]], [[:File:ON-quest-A Ghost from the Past 04.jpg|Sithis]], [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|werewolf with both moons]], [[:File:DB-quest-Clean Sweep.jpg|ash spawn crawling out of the ground in a tomb]]

A lot of the spring/summer ones could be one or the other. February could use a winter or a springy one. Halloween is the only event that has decent representation as the games lend themselves well to that "scary" theme. A Christmas or Easter one might need to be sourced from our other images. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

[[Image:2018_Calender_Month_Test_1.jpg|240px|right]]
:Great! Another thought of image materials are the various high-quality screenshots that people take of Skyrim and ESO with various mods/graphical enhancements. These would require the permission of the screenshot owner. I'll see if I can track down some good ones and get permission.
: I've made a very quick/initial drawing of a calendar page as I envisioned it. It is still very rough but feedback is wanted sooner rather than later. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. I could advertise it on social media and add "Submit high quality screenshots to us to use in the calendar" to possibly get some nice ones sent to us. If we were to say, offer anyone we used an image from a copy of the calendar, we could probably get a few. Would you be okay with that? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:32, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I thought the license for screenshots gave the UESP the copyright, "the copyright for this particular composition is held by UESP", while giving Bethesda copyright on the components. Like any edit, images have always been treated as belonging to the wiki once uploaded, for us to use as and where we think suitable. Plus, even for Skyrim, a lot of image takers are no longer active. AKB's proposal seems good, at most you'd be giving out 12 images to non-UESP people, and all of them could be evaluated for use on the wiki itself even if they fail to get used in the calendar. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::::re: AKB's suggestion of getting screenshots from fans, I was thinking the same thing so go ahead and see what people can send us. Regarding the SS permission I was referring to images found outside of the UESP. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 

::::Another more refined sample: [[Image:2018_Calendar_Sample_3.png|240px|right]]
:::::* Tried to give it a more lore/medieval look with parchment background and imperfect grid lines.
:::::* Added site logo,
:::::* Originally I was thinking of having text box with the some text from the UESP's relevant article. Unsure if that is too much or better to go with just a title/page link or perhaps nothing at all.
:::: Keep the feedback, ideas, and more pictures coming! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

 
::::: Dave, I like the parchment background with UESP logo, but with the white squares. I'd mock one up if I was on my Mac (which has Photoshop), but all I have on this PC is Paint. My reasoning is that I love the UESP "branding", however a lot of people need to write on their calendars and this is easier to do with a white background. Also, the imperfect grid lines will make a lot of us twitch! Thus I feel that parchment background with UESP logo but a white calendar grid section is the best compromise. I would like a title to each picture - including which game it is from - but I don't feel we need a huge box explaining what it is, let alone a wiki URL which is difficult to type. If the wiki's search function is working properly, people will be able to look up "Brelyna Maryon" and "Frost Atronach" easily enough :) [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 22:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: A couple more image suggestions:
::::::Spring: [[:File:SR-creature-Birds.jpg|Skyrim birds]], [[:File:RG-place-Shrine of Morwha.jpg|Shrine of Morwha (mother goddess)]]
::::::Autumn: [[:File:OB-quest-Information at a Price.jpg|Skingrad]], [[:File:OB-quest-Azani Blackheart 3.jpg|Ayleid ruins]]
::::::Winter: [[:File:ON-place-The Black Forge.jpg|Coldharbour]]
::::::—[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::A more refined draft with some of the suggestions implemented. [[Image:UESP Fan Gift 2018 - Month Test 4.jpg|240px|right]]
:::::::Barring any suggestions that require large changes I'd like to finalize the overall design and move to choosing the month images. There is also the question of exactly what holidays to include:
::::::::* All ES lore holidays
::::::::* Only Major ES lore holidays
::::::::* Real world American/Canadian holidays
::::::::* Other real world holidays
::::::: -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 
::::::::I'm against the inclusion of real-world holidays, since we don't knowfrom which country the winners will be. I like the style, however -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 20:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I agree with Sarthes to exclude real world holidays. I still like a small lore explanation on the calender like in the second mock-up, but maybe that will distact too much from the image. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

: The first draft of the calendar is available at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft1.pdf'''. Please review it and put any comments here.
:* There were a lot of great images submitted and it was hard to pick and choose just 13 of them. If you feel an image doesn't fit well let me know and we can easily find another one.
:* Spelling, grammar and lore corrections are welcome (I've already spotted a couple myself).
:* Better or more accurate descriptions for some of the images would be good. I just guessed at some of the locations. In particular:
:::* January - Where is this?
:::* February - Where is this?
:::* April - Dragon names?
:::* July - Where is this?
:::* August - Where is this?
:::* September - Better caption?
:::* October - Where is this?
:Right now I'm aiming to print 250 of them and mail them out like the maps last year. Now is a good time for people to start thinking about how they wish to distribute them. The more I can get mailed out in December the better! I also don't want as many left over at the end as the maps last year...I still have about 100 maps that can be sent out if people want them. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::January and July look like Falkreath hold to me, and part of the same general area, but can't pin it down. The dragons in April look like Alduin at the Throat of the World. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that mods are involved there, as there are no dragons that white (the frost dragon is white but with large dark coloured parts), and it's breathing fire which a frost dragon shouldn't do. I don't think that means it should be excluded though, but I can see a red sword in the lower right sky. September, it looks indoors, so it could be a frustrated mage trying to light a hearth. October is Heartwood Mill in the Rift, from Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

:::January is somewhere near [[Skyrim:Evergreen Grove|Evergreen Grove]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-51184|y=-61784}}. February is [[Online:Razak's Wheel|Razak's Wheel]], I think. April is [[Skyrim:Alduin|Alduin]] and [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax|Paarthurnax]] fighting at the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]]. That red dagger is a result of a spell I created. If it looks out-of-place, it can be photoshopped away. July is [[Skyrim:Lake Ilinalta|Lake Ilinalta]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-1942|y=-53920}}. August is likely to be [[Online:Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)|Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)]]. I highly suspect October to be [[Skyrim:Half-Moon Mill|Half-Moon Mill]].
:::Are the Summoning Days really specific to the Daggerfall City-State? I always thought they were the same for all of Nirn. Also, the Gauntlet at Sun's Dusk 2nd is also Boethiah's Summoning Day. Hogithum at First Seed 21st is Azura's. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! For the summoning days I believe they were only actually used in the Daggerfall game but like you say are probably Tamriel wide. We can either omit them entirely or I can add them as another type/color holiday to make it easier to fit in with the other holidays you mentioned (I might try that and see how it looks). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::With SarthesArai's help, I found the exact location January was taken from, and I can confirm that his description and coordinates are correct. July is also Ilinalta, though the coordinates given are a bit off. I used {{Map Link|x=-18000|y=-53000|zoom=16|ns=Skyrim}}. I also double-checked in the game and October is definitely [[Skyrim:Heartwood Mill|Heartwood Mill]], as Silencer suggested. Are there any other Skyrim locations that need double-checked? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've made all the suggested changes with the only outstanding location is February...I don't think it is Razak's Wheel as I went all over and couldn't find the view. I'm pretty sure it is a view to an unreachable location in a delve somewhere but I can't quite remember it. If I can verify the location in the next day or so I'll upload an updated draft of the calendar. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:Correction: It's Klathzgar, near the Skyshard, looking outside the playable area. Thanks to [[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer]] for actually finding it. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

::That's it! I asked on the ESO sub-reddit and someone answered pretty fast as well. I'll get an updated draft up tomorrow. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:::The latest calendar draft is up at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft3.pdf'''. Unless there are other changes/corrections to make I'll be submitting it for printing in a few days. I'll post another topic regarding the distribution of calendars (it will be the same as the map poster last year). As a last minute update I added the birthsigns to each month (they can be easily removed if people think they don't fit well). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I like the birthsigns, but I think they might fit better with the month name, instead of on one of the calendar squares (and then they would be in the same spot for each month). --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 17:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::Another way would be to have the birthsign image as a background, though only as a faint outline, or even just the constellation. I don't think that would take too much away from the desired white background boxes for writing in. Faldar's Tooth doesn't really help place Heartwood Mill, "on the shore of Lake Honrich" or "near Riften" might be better. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Yah, I didn't like the location of the birthsigns either so I've tried moving them up to the title line which looks a lot better I think. See '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft4.pdf''' for the latest. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} That looks better than I thought it could be up there. It has my vote as ready to go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:I agree, this looks really nice! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

::Barring any last second fixes I'd like to send the calendar to the printers tomorrow and get started on the various distribution methods. Ideally I'd like to start shipping at least some of them before Christmas. I'll start a new AN topic tomorrow regarding that. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Final calendar release is at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf''' (or higher resolution at http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final.pdf if anyone would like to print it themselves). Note that I had to add 2 new images/pages at the end as the printer was only able to print 24 or 28 page sizes. Hopefully there are no obvious errors for those as the print job has already been started. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I was just wondering: where were those final two images taken? Or, if you don't know, do you have the links for them on the wiki? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:::::The first one appears to have been taken from [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Overlook|Dragon Bridge Overlook]] - checked in-game and you can get a very similar view from there - or perhaps somewhere nearby like [[Skyrim:Cliffside Retreat|Cliffside Retreat]]. The second is in [[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern|Moss Mother Cavern]]. (I play this game way too much.) ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::I was thinking the second one looked like Moss Mother Cavern, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't find that exact image on the wiki, so I thought maybe I was wrong. Thanks, Alarra! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Got mine in the mail yesterday and it looks fantastic in person! Just wanted to leave a quick thanks, Dave! Good work on the calendars this year! :) -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 05:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

== Paarthurnax ==

The Blades demand for the removal of [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax (dragon)]] has seen the page blanked 6 times since last December, with only one constructive edit in that time. I think it needs some additional protection for a while. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Agreed. Delphine is such a tryhard. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::I've semi-protected it for a year, and we'll see how it fares after that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::Good god I can't believe people are still butthurt over this. I remember arguing with people on the official lore board about it back when Skyrim came out. Can you at least block anonymous edits to the page? --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 22:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::::That was just a joke, there's no way to guess what reason the page was blanked for as none was given. Semi-protection, which the page now has, does exactly that, as well as blocking brand new accounts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::Some people were seriously apoplectic about the Blades/Paarthurnax thing, certainly enough to vandalize a wiki. I just figured they'd found something else to be mad about by now. --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 23:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Inappropriate Username ==

Wanted to bring to the attention of Admins an inappropriate username creation. [[Special:Log/newusers]] link for easier viewing. User name begins with "Tom". [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 05:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

:Done, thanks. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, didnt wan't to say their name. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]])

== Legends Card Data and Popup ==

People asked for this a while ago and I'm finally getting to working on it. This is just the first step of many so if you have suggestions/ideas on the existing implementation or where it goes from here don't hesitate to say something.

:* List of cards can be seen at [[Special:LegendsCardData]]. Hover over the card name for the popup and click the name for card details.
:* Linking to a specific card can be done using the custom <code><nowiki><legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard></nowiki></code> tag which looks like: <legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard>.
:* Card data has been initially populated with the saved MetaTemplate data on each card page and is not yet complete.
:* Do we need a "missing card" image or is it fine to just display nothing?
:* Are the card popup images a good size? I've resized them from the wiki images to load faster.
:* An add/edit card data feature is planned in order to let editors manage updating existing card data and adding new ones.
:* Similarly, a card search feature is planned.
:* A deck builder is possible but is a much larger piece of work to be considered in the farther future as time permits.

If you notice anything broken or not working as you think it should let me know as well...I haven't done much cross browser/platform testing yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:59, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:Oooh, this looks really nice Daveh! The size of the pop-up images are quite good, they aren't much different in-game. I am not sure if a "missing card" image is necessary. I think that the benefits are that it will make us sure the pop-up is not broken and it might give us some incentive to find the missing images faster. All in all, it looks great! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:: A bunch more changes today:
:::* All card data should be up to date so far as I know it.
:::* Added the edit and create forms. Currently wiki admins have access to this but I can give specific editors access if there's any active Legends users. There's the "Create Card" in the upper right of the main card table and an "Edit Card" in the upper right of each card details page.
:::* Added a simple <legendscard card='unknown'>Unknown Card</legendscard>.
:: A reminder that I haven't played very much Legends myself so if there are obvious omissions in anything let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I would like to get access to the Create/Edit option at the [[Special:LegendsCardData]] page. I am one of the most active Legends contributors and I am also the one adding the new cards from the upcoming expansion. So it would be easiest if I can add the card to both places at once. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

::::You should now have the ability to edit and create cards. If this doesn't work for you please let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::It seems like the tag isn't properly processing template parameters. <code><nowiki>{{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code>, for example, produces: {{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>.

:::::Ilaro also pointed out that the link should go to the card's wiki page rather than Special:LegendsCardData. I'm not sure if we'd have a need to link to the card data for any reason, so the link can probably just be changed directly, but you could perhaps have it as an option in case there is some such need in the future, if it's not too difficult. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::Both of these should now be fixed. Use the <code>usedatalink="1"</code> parameter if you would like to link to the card data page, otherwise it links to the card article. Note that if there are other custom uesp tags that need template parameter parsing let me know (like <nowiki><esoitemlink></nowiki>). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I found another problem: cards like {{Legends PU|Archer's Gambit}} or {{Legends PU|Crusader's Assault}} are showing the right pop-up, but they are linked to the [[Legends:Archer|Archer]]/[[Legends:Crusader|Crusader]] page instead of their card page. This also causes {{Legends PU|Alik'r Survivalist}} to link to the not existing "Alik" page instead of [[Legends:Alik'r Survivalist]].
:::::::Another problem are the Werewolf cards. Both {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Nord)}} and {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Werewolf)}} have a unknown card pop-up. These are, however, two separate 'entities' and should have their respective card image pop-up. On the other hand, {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress}} shows the werewolf card, which should not be the case, because it is the link to the disambiguation page. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed both issues. For Aela it was due to me incorrectly importing just the one base card so I renamed that one and created the other one. Both should now have correct popups. The disambiguation popup is fixed however your local browser cache will likely still display the issue until you clear the cache or the image expires. Note that to fix both issues you just have to re-save any page that uses those cards. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The fixes seem to work! However, I should have been more clear about the werewolves. {{Card|Aela's Huntmate}}, {{Card|Circle Initiate}}, {{Card|Companion Harbinger}}, {{Card|Grim Shield-Brother}} and {{Card|Whiterun Protector (Werewolf)|Whiterun Protector}} suffer from the same problem as Aela. (that should be all of them) --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:57, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
:These should now be all fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
::Just when you thought you were done.... Cards with disambiguations in the name face a special challenge, in that the disambiguation needs to be both present and absent. Look, for example, at <legendscard card="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>. As it stands now, it links to [[Legends:Skeleton]] even though it gets its data from [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I'm not sure how that magic works, but it should really link to [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I can see three potential fixes for this:
::#Change the magic renaming to link to the same page it's getting the data from.
::#Change all the card names to use the exact same as the page names. If you go that route, though, you'd need to give us the ability to edit the name used in <code>card="''name''"</code>, as well as the wiki link itself, in [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?edit=Skeleton the edit page] so we can update page names if they move around and fix any that don't currently follow this pattern.
::#Provide an actual <code>link</code> parameter. This is potentially more flexible, but personally, I think this would end up over-complicating a lot of things, both on your end and on the wiki end, so one of the first two is probably the better choice.
::– [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

:::Today I added all new obtainable cards to the Card Database. However, I ran into two problems. Cards with an apostrophe in the name (for example: [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Mecinar%27s+Will]] ) do not link properly to the right image file. Secondly, there are two new creature types in the expansion, but I could only choose types from a dropdown list and not add a new one. You are probably busy, but I like to point out that the problem from RH (one post above this) is also still present. See whenever you have time/feel like to fix it. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added basic card filters to the card table display. Let me know if you need/want more filters and what specifically. Added the 2 new creature types...if any list is missing something just let me know. Explicitly listing what items makes it much easier for me since I don't play Legends much and am not to familiar with it. Fixed the issue with single quotes in item names...let me know if you run into similar issues (just was due to various text escaping errors). Haven't fixed RobinHood's issue but will look at it and figure out the best course of action shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 22:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Regarding the card links for disambiguation pages I've decided to go with a 4th option at least for now. Part of the issue is that the card link code doesn't access the legends card database and I'd prefer to keep it that way. That means the first option won't work. The second option would work but it depends whether editors want to go that route (I can add name changing to the card edit code as needed). The third option would work fine but it really just pushes the problem onto the editor or makes the card link template that much more complicated.

So option I've implemented for now is to hardcode a list of all cards that have disambiguation pages and check in that list whenever a card link is parsed. So far I just have 4 cards in that list:
:* Bandit Ambush => card
:* Chaurus => creature
:* Skeleton => card
:* Swims-at-Night => card
If there are more cards needed in this list, either now or in future sets, just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:Great! Some small notes: Chaurus (creature) has been changed some time ago to Chaurus (card) for consistency and the original is now a redirect. I also have some issue with <code><nowiki>{{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code> that it is still linking to the disambig page (see {{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>), while <code><nowiki><legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard></nowiki></code> is not (see <legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>). At last, is there any way to remove cards from LegendsCardData? Because this one is now split up into two cards [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Aela%27s+Huntmate]] (the Nord and the Werewolf version). Thanks in advance for the help! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::Fixed the Chaurus card type for the disambiguation page, the MetaTemplate issue with disambiguation links and I've manually deleted the linked card. For now cards can only be deleted or renamed manually...no reason other than to limit the amount of data loss that could happen (can't just revert edits like with wiki pages). For now just let me know of any deletes/renames required and these features can be added in time if desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Image Undeletion ==

The image File:SkyrimEchmer.jpg was deleted on the 4th November, however, the [[General:Uutak Mythos|Uutak Mythos]] is and has been linking it since 2nd September. The log doesn't say why it was deleted, so can someone look, and if possible, restore the image if it isn't too late, or if the reason it was deleted would see it deleted again (eg duplication), remove the links here and on that page. My apologies if it was me who marked it for deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:You listed it for speedy deletion with the reason "duplicate file, other one is in the naming style of similar images" and AKB deleted it. I thought there was a way to view deleted images, but if there is, I can't find it, so I've restored the image for the time being. If you can find what it's a duplicate of, re-link it to the correct place and we can re-delete this one. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks. The duplicate image was autolinked from the file page, and has now been replaced on the Uutak Mythos page. I've removed the link above so it's clear to redelete. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Done. And thanks for looking into that. I was just on my way out to dinner, so I didn't have a lot of time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

== UESP Fan Gift (2018 Calendar) ==

The [http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf calendar] has been finished and sent off for printing so we can get started on figuring out who the lucky people are that get one. I've ordered 250 calendars so if we distribute them roughly the same as the map last year I shouldn't have any left over at the end. Like last year distribution will be grouped into a few categories:

:* Anyone who submitted an image used in the calendar (12 people).
:* All admins/mods/guild leaders of UESP (if you aren't sure if this includes you just [mailto:dave@uesp.net ask me]).
:* Random draw for everyone is open at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] and a number of winners will be drawn on Dec 15th (so I can start mailing them before Christmas).
:* Any wiki editor in the 2017 year can submit their name at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] for a different random draw on Dec 15th for just wiki editors.
:* Any other contest that might be run by our forums, social media sites, or ESO guilds. If you running a content let me know and we can figure out how many calendars we can reserve for you.
:* Special people in the Elder Scrolls universe (Bethesda, Zenimax Online, fan sites, etc...). [mailto:dave@uesp.net Let me know] if you have a suggestion here!

Calendar winners can use the [https://goo.gl/forms/xZg2kcQa0pgh6nVb2 Mailing Address Collection Form (2018 Calendar)] to submit their address so I can mail the calendar to them.

I also still have about 100 maps from last year I can include for people as desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
::If you can swing it, I would love to get another copy of the map - mine got damaged when I moved between states. --[[User:SCarverOrne|SCarverOrne]] ([[User talk:SCarverOrne|talk]]) 03:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

:At least the Morning Star, Sun's Dawn, First Seed, and Rain's Hand images were all submitted by me, but I do not need 4 calendars... xD -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
::As an idea for the last point, maybe the creators of the most popular mods/addons? Like Arthmoor or the creator of FTC? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I received the calendars last Friday and they look great! I'm mailing out the first batch of 22 calendars today/tomorrow to everyone who has filled out the mailing address form so far. Hopefully at least some of you will get them by Christmas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Being just next door in Ottawa, I got mine today and it looks fantastic! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've performed the random draw just now with the 757 unique e-mails submitted from the form. 36 calendars went to wiki users and 25 went to random users. Everyone has been notified by e-mail to submit their mailing address on the collection form. After all calendars have been claimed from contests sometime in January I'll do another random draw to get rid of any left over calendars. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

:Will send out another 70 or so calendars this afternoon and that will likely be the last batch shipped out before the New Year. An update on what charities we've supported this year (it's hard to choose as there's so many good organizations to give to). I've donated $750 to [https://www.charitywater.org Charity Water] and through [http://childsplaycharity.org/ Child's Play] I've purchased $300 worth of toys for The Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. Note that if anyone is interested in running charitable events through Child's Play or a similar organization anytime just let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

== Skyrim Creation Club Purchases ==
Since Creation Club mods are "official" content (or close enough) the UESP's offer to purchase games for admins and active editors applies to them was well. At a minimum we should make sure that at least one admin/editor has a copy of each CC mod to make sure we can add/test content for the wiki. So far only Legoless has asked and received money for CC purchases and I don't know which mods he has purchased.

If you are an admin or ''active'' editor and would like to be reiumbursed for CC purchases just [mailto:dave@uesp.net let me know]. Usually I just send money via Paypal unless there is a way to gift CC credits somehow. People how have CC mods should also post here so we know which content we have and what we might not. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:I'd be interested. I've dabbled with them but only taken the ones that were free on offer. If I decide to take up your offer I'll email you, as anyone should if they wish to keep anonymous. Also, should I do it, I will purchase all currently available ones that I haven't got. The numbers certainly don't appear to be high as there has been little activity on documenting them, so it would be good to know what creations everyone purchases. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I'm also interested. I currently have Survival Mode, Arcane Accessories, Dwarven Armored Mudcrab, and Stendarr's Hammer (which I purchased with initial credits). Creation Club is easy content to document, so I'll certainly help out with those pages. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::: I have access to all CC mods to date and can verify as needed. Lots of information to add too, but it seems Fullerton may beat me to it! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I now own all current CC content. I'm not playing Skyrim at the moment but I can now pop in and check/verify stuff if anyone needs. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ebony blade victims ==

I recently found out that the randomly encountered Stray dogs are valid targets for the Ebony blade which also uniquely respawn. I added the information to the [[Skyrim:Ebony_Blade_Victims|Ebony blade victims]] page but my edit was [[Skyrim_talk:Ebony_Blade_Victims#Respawning_blade_targets|revoked in good faith by another editor]] for not meeting the criteria. As far as I can tell there was no mention of such a unlimited (they respawn) target for the quest that also means no other named NPCs need to be disabled. What is the policy for adding the information to that page and how, if possible, can I rephrase or change the information so that it would meet the criteria on that page? With best regards, --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 20:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:The best place to ask this is on the talk page of the article. Complaining to the admins because your edits were reverted and then subsequently explained is not how you go about understanding an article and its purpose. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::SkyHiRider, you might be better-advised to take it to the article's [[Skyrim talk:Ebony Blade Victims|talk page]], which more people will be watching and so will be a better place to expect a reply. The reason that the administrator noticeboard isn't the right place for this is because the AN's purpose is for Administrator-only actions, but the mistake was made due to being unaware so it's understandable and completely fine as long as the mistake isn't repeated. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 10:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

::: Understood, will keep it to the article talk page. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 23:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Mobile ads issue ==

A couple times the past week, I've hit some kind of ad that redirects me to a giveaway/scam site. Example: [https://imgur.com/kvsLmWm]. Both the times it happened, I was on Safari for iOS, refreshing the Recent Changes page. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 15:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

: A user mentions having a similar problem on [http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40436 this forum post] and manages to provide a link to the offending webpage. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== De-Rank Request: Fullerton ==

In light of Fullerton's recent actions on both our Discord server and another one, the Discord staff are suggesting a removal of his Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki. There is precedent on both the wiki and forum for dealing with a user's actions from a different part of the UESP or from offsite. As site staff in the form of patroller and blocker, he is representing the wiki elsewhere, and his recent behavior shows a lack of the type of responsibility needed to have these roles here.
* He was previously staff on Discord due to us initially adding everyone who has roles elsewhere as UESP staff. He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users.
* He has behaved in a somewhat inappropriate matter off and on, which has been addressed in a less-formal manner of staff talking to him or posting a reminder, such as racist comments, language such as the use of "retarded"/"mong", and other behavior which we do not consider okay there even as a joke. Earlier this week, on Tuesday, he was kicked from the server for spamming a bot command that was previously disabled (accidentally reenabled when the bot creator was working on it), being told to stop, and then moving the spam to our main channel (#general) instead, right around the time a prominent member of the ESO community joined.
* Yesterday, on another server (one with many banned members who have something of an anti-UESP sentiment), he [https://imgur.com/tK0668E doxxed Legoless (name hidden)] by changing his username there to his actual real name, and did it in a racist manner, as Legoless is Irish. At this point, we gave him a role on our server that would remove access to all channels to him except the one called "#dungeon", which is used as a holding area while staff discuss what action to take. He claimed to not know it was Legoless's real name, but we found evidence to the contrary; two instances of him using Lego's first or last name on October 22 and November 13.
* This morning, he left our server and rejoined to remove that role (essentially evading a soft ban), [https://imgur.com/feFK62z swearing at the moderation], and posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created).
Fullerton's editing on the wiki has been good, but we feel that with behavior like this it is not appropriate that he hold any type of staff role on the UESP. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

:Why are the Discord staff suggesting a removal of my patroller and blocker roles on-wiki? I do recall that recently there was an attempt to demarcate between Discord and on-wiki staves, and so it puzzles me to see that they're being treated as a single entity.
:If you will recall, these were demarcated because it placed people with insufficient experience in online chatrooms as moderators to have wikistaff become Discord staff, and I have been acting under the impression that one does not necessarily equal the other. I fully agree with my previous removal from Discord staff because quite frankly, my position as wiki staff should not in any way make me a staff member on the UESP Discord server. These distinctions are because Discord and the wiki are extremely different platforms. As a result, I did not feel that I had to act in my role as a wiki patroller when idly chatting in the UESP discord server and various other Discord servers, as the case may be. Now, the reason I failed to represent a wiki patroller in a Discord staff capacity is 'because' of this discrepancy, as I was thrust into a position of which I held no understanding. However, the patroller role on-wiki is something I signed onto fully aware of, and so there is far less possibility that I will misunderstand and forgo the duties which the role has assigned to me on here. As I said, they are different platforms and I signed on to be a Wiki patroller and fulfill the task, while I just so happened to be thrust into a position on the Discord pertaining to representing the wiki.
:Especially prominent in the demarcation between UESP and the Discord Server belonging to it is the Discord Server's recent promotion of "Tea Party Moderators", who were chosen simply for being fit for the task.
:In the past (October 31st), I attempted to have the patroller role removed from my Discord account by leaving the server. However, it was simply re-added to my account because I expressed an ambivalence towards the role. I did not feel I was bound to remain in the role, and came only to see it as a different-colored nametag on the Discord server - hence I requested the colors when I rejoined the server from my (acknowledged to be unjust) kick.
:Additionally, there's no reason for Discord conflicts to suddenly occur on-wiki-this directly defies the reason given for the deletion [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans]], which was that there is no need for the Discord to be that much on the wiki.
:I'd like to conclude by saying that this is an extension of the inconsistency in moderation styles on the UESP discord that has now spilled over onto the wiki, and that I doubt that allowing the confusion to continue will clear up any of the discrepancies on the UESP Discord server.
:—[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 04:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
::(This response is just from me and not the Discord staff as a whole.) Again, part of the reason we are suggesting it here is that as patroller and blocker you are still site staff - not moderating ''that'' part of it doesn't change the roles you do have - and your actions therefore still represent the UESP. The demarcation of the site has nothing to do with it (in fact we've been treating the UESP ''less'' as separate communities and more of a single community ever since the Discord was founded, even if not everyone manages every aspect of it.)
::(As an aside, the reason the Discord Bans page on the wiki was deleted was because we felt that the list had become incentive for people to try to behave badly in order to get banned and get their name on it, not because we felt the Discord and wiki should be kept separate. The reason you had the Blocker/Patroller roles on the Discord was to help you fulfill your duties on the wiki: to have access to the Patrolling channel to discuss edits a patroller isn't certain about, and for people to be able to notify you to block a vandal when needed (which is, in a way, still acting as site staff). You [https://imgur.com/ZxRTafv were aware] that that was the purpose of the role, and in fact after you left in October and it missed being re-added, you yourself eventually [https://imgur.com/E3Cgmnn pointed out] that you were missing it so that it could be added and you could put it to that use.)
::But anyway, back to the topic at hand and the main part of my response: The other part of why we're suggesting it is because in the past we have taken action on parts of the UESP for behavior on a different part (and even offsite) if the behavior was severe enough, which I personally would vote is the case here: sharing another user's personal information without their consent is very serious, even without the rest of it. And regardless whether viewing you as a staff member or not, the examples I listed in the first post show poor judgement at best and some of them malicious behavior at worst (e.g. re-joining the server to shake off the dungeon role and swearing at the mods and posting the dungeon content), which is enough to raise concern about whether you are responsible enough for these roles. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 08:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Instead of trying to dance around this, I'm just gonna say this. What you did could have put Legoless's personal safety at risk. Which raises the question, do you understand what doxing is, and why it is dangerous? Please answer if you understand what you did. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 09:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::From my persepctive, doxxing a member of staff is not the way anyone should behave, let alone another member of staff. Furthermore, your actions on Discord of evading the soft ban by leaving and rejoining the server to leave the #dungeon channel, and then posting the content of the dungeon in a public channel, shows that you do not respect our moderation processes. Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::There are so many side issues that are brought up by this discussion, it's hard to know where to start. On the one hand, I'm concerned about the cross-over of platforms. There's a certain level of behaviour that I would expect from staff, regardless of which UESP platform they're on, and to an extent, even on other sites. But on the other hand, there are also times when people feel the need to let loose. I've certainly said and done things on channels/servers/sites where I wasn't staff that I wouldn't do here, where I am.

:::::Doxxing someone (anyone! staff or not) is a serious charge, and one that might well warrant cross-platform discipline. That said, it really depends on how much of an issue it actually is for Legoless. I'd like to hear from him on that one. I'd also suggest that people consider the fact that some of us are more open about our real names, while others aren't, and it's very easy to forget who's who. A great many people know my real name, for instance, and it's not too terribly difficult to find out if you don't yet. A few clicks should bring you right to it. :) So, was Fullerton acting maliciously and deliberately sharing Legoless' real name? If so, then this is an easy decision, and I'd say yes, he should have rights removed here, since that type of behaviour is unacceptable for any staff member in any and every part of UESP. That becomes a bit more grey, however, if he was acting more out of negligence and just not thinking of the fact that only certain people know Legoless' real name, or even out of ignorance, not realizing that most people don't know it. As a gay man, I completely understand the latter. I've accidentally been outed to people in the past, and I have once accidentally outed someone else in complete ignorance, thinking that everyone knew. It sucks, but sometimes these things happen.

:::::As for the racism issue, that one's a bit more confusing. After all, Legoless' real name includes what is sometimes considered a racist (or at least ethnist) component to it, but is also just a normal name too, so unless there was something more there, I'm not sure that's necessarily racist on its own. Context, however, could make a big difference here, though I appreciate that it may be difficult to share that without inherently outing Legoless all over again!

:::::I think this brings up some larger issues, though, in that there has been a recent tendency to take things cross-platform, and I'm not sure it's always warranted. It strikes me that, to some extent, there have been vendettas going on from certain staff members against other users and an excessive adherence to rules. The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right. That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning. As popular as our Discord channel is, I think to an extent it has also become dysfunctional, and I have a tremendous concern that this cross-platform disciplinary action just continues that trend. TBH, when baratron recently suggested on my talk page that I return to the Discord channel, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!", though I worded it a bit more diplomatically there. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I just did some research, and in a quick Google, I was able to find pages that linked Legoless to his real name. In my own inbox, I was able to find '''Legoless himself''' using the variant of his name that is presented as being racist. So, I think the concerns on that front are a lot less than they might seem.

::::::That said, I think evading a soft ban was inappropriate behaviour, but I can also see where locking someone away in a dungeon (quite literally in this case) gives them no chance to defend themselves publicly, and leaves them unaware of any public or admin-only discussion concerning them, where they should have the opportunity to raise a defence. Yes, they can do so afterwards, but from my experience, by that point, opinions have already largely been formed by the administrators who took an interest. I don't think a dungeon room is at all an appropriate way to handle discipline. All the worse that it's actually called that without seeing the stigma it creates. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @RobinHood: You may have missed a nuance of what Fullerton did. Let's say Legoless's name is Patrick Murphy (it isn't). Fullerton didn't just change Legoless's public name on the other server to "Paddy Murphy" (where "Paddy" is both a common Irish first name and also a derogatory term used for Irish people) - he changed it to "Paddy O'Murphy" - adding an extra O' as if Legoless's surname ''isn't Irish enough''.

::::::: I am not sure what you mean by "''The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right.''" I'm only aware of TJ's Discord server, which has plenty of current members. It's a place for people to "shitpost" (am I allowed to say that on the wiki?), which is posting lots of meme images and talking all in emojis - the sort of behaviour that we frown upon on the main UESP Discord server. This isn't necessarily '''bad''' behaviour, it just does not convey the professional image that we want on the UESP Discord, in case a Bethesda or Zenimax employee shows up. (Which they do - we have two currently that we know of.)

::::::: We're also uncertain about "''That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning''". We're not sure of any current or ex-Patrollers who use TJ's server other than Fullerton and Legoless. Again, there is nothing sinister in them going to that site. Different Discord servers have different rules, and it doesn't mean that wiki staff are involved in some sort of plot against UESP because they happen to hang out there. Some people are on literally 50+ Discord servers at a time - I don't know how they keep up, I'm on 4 of which 2 are busy and multi-channeled, and the other 2 get on average of one message a day. But a lot of younger people apparently have the time and energy for it, *shrug*.

::::::: I take your point about the #dungeon channel, but it '''is intended''' for people to defend themselves. It's where they get to explain to the staff why they did whatever they did, and apologise if necessary. No one other than staff sees who is in there - other members do not even see the channel, and as far as they know, the user is simply offline. I don't agree that opinions have ''necessarily'' already been formed by the administrators who took an interest - sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes, the whole purpose of putting a person into that channel is to find out the details of an incident, rather than to punish people. The channel history is always wiped after use. Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business. I agree that #dungeon is a bad name.

::::::: I understand that Fullerton was frustrated because he was "left in the dungeon for 6 hours", but this was an unfortunate side-effect of timezones. I went to bed at 6 am on Saturday morning due to staying up, dealing with this situation. For many people in the US, it was already 1 am and not everyone has as chaotic a sleep schedule as I do. I'm not sure how anything could have been dealt with any quicker. Also, Fullerton himself told us that he would be away from his computer for the day, which also gave an impression that it was not urgent enough for '''everyone''' to have to stay up way past their bedtimes. I do regret that this was apparently not the case. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I did catch the O'. To me, that was not tremendously relevant, but maybe that's an Aspie thing. I just don't attach the same level of importance to these sorts of things as some do. Since Legoless himself has said it was ancillary to the doxxing itself, I see it as a moot point in any event.

:::::::: My understanding of the purpose of TJ's channel may have been off, as I've never been there and have only heard bits and pieces about it. As far as the other server, I won't say too much for privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that I'm not the only person who found our Discord server sufficiently problematic as to either leave it or at least not visit often. A few of us happen to have found each other in what is otherwise an unrelated server, and on rare occasions, we have discussed what we see as some of the problems. "Offshoot" was not the best term, but I couldn't find another one readily that encompassed both TJ's server (which I understand has at least a few users who were banned from UESP's Discord) as well as the other one.

:::::::: As for the dungeon, as you've acknowledged, the name itself is problematic and adds bias to any discussion, as it automatically implies guilt. I think a better method would be to take such discussions to an ad-hoc private channels and ask the user to refrain from using the channels (which leaves you a certain leeway to make it an even softer ban, allowing use of certain channels if appropriate), or just take it to a group PM and kick/ban them from the Discord server, if necessary. Perhaps these are a bit more of a nuisance, but they're not as inherently biased. At the very least, a better name could be found. I get that it was meant as humorous, but I think it probably doesn't seem quite as funny to someone who finds themselves there.

:::::::: I wasn't really aware of the timing issue of Fullerton being left in the room for 6 hours, but as you say, even if it was frustrating, that's completely understandable, given that our users are from around the world. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: This conversation's moving a bit quickly for me to get a response in, and most of my points have been covered by various users, but I'll just add that Fullerton actually [https://imgur.com/KECYIgR admitted] that his intention with that particular name change was to be racist.
::::::::: I agree that perhaps a better name can be found; it was indeed chosen to be humorous, but I understand your point about the implications the name might have. It certainly isn't our intent to imply that we've already formed opinions: as bara said, it's a place for the mods and the user to come to an understanding; we've given users another chance or found alternate solutions based on our discussions with them there, and it's not always used in cases of disciplinary action either. Even yesterday it was used voluntarily as a private place for a user who wanted to talk to the moderators. While I can understand the frustration of remaining there for hours, the reason we created it is to have time to let all moderators give input, discuss things thoroughly, and not make snap judgements. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::: That screen-cap certainly provides a context I didn't have before. Thank you. As far as forming opinions in advance, that's not just limited to Discord, I've seen it happen in various staff discussions, and I'm as guilty of doing it as the next person. There are often two (or more) discussions on any given issue of misbehaviour, one that includes the affected user and one that doesn't. I think too often, the one that doesn't involve the user tends to jump ahead of the one that does, often without all the facts, and it leads to inappropriate conclusions. That's my main concern here. Usually by the time it's decided that someone belongs in the dungeon (or whatever you end up calling it), there's already been a discussion behind the scenes as to whether the user should be pulled in there. As I recall, putting them in there also removes them from all other channels, does it not? Assuming I'm right, that also adds a presumption of guilt, providing a punishment before a discussion with the user has even happened. I'd rather see the user involved first, before any decisions are made (not counting egregious behaviour, of course, where immediate actions are entirely appropriate). This is probably getting off-topic, however, as it's far more generalized of a concern than this specific instance. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Technically yes, there is a presumption of guilt when putting someone in the dungeon. That's why it exists and why it is named what it is – it is a punishment, a soft ban from the server, while the staff discuss privately, and also discuss with the person involved, whether their actions require a full ban. The alternative is that they get banned from the server straight away, and then the only way to contact them is via private messages, and then it is much more difficult to involve all the staff. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}This isn't about Discord staff versus website staff - this is about a person, who has been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.

UESP is not a random TES discord or Facebook group, it is the single oldest website dedicated to the series, and one of the most respected institutions in the fandom. You, as a representative of said website, are obligated to behave in a manner becoming of its mission and position in the community. Doxxing, using racist language, and making ableist remarks (not to mention defying a soft ban, talking publicly about private conversations, and repeatedly refusing to change aforementioned behaviours) is NOT OK for any regular member of a community, and it is especially not ok for someone that is supposed to represent the very best and most trustworthy of a community (i.e. the staff).

When you use ableist or racist language, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making UESP look bad. You're making people uncomfortable and less willing to contribute to the website and community, potentially driving away valuable contributors. You're eroding peoples' trust in the website and its staff. You're encouraging bad behavior from members and making moderation more difficult, because if staff can act like assholes, why can't everyone?

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. Your recent behaviour has been the opposite of that. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 20:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I'm certainly not okay with my name being made public knowledge without my consent, which is the reason I brought this to the attention of staff to begin with. The fact that it was a racist version of my name is ancillary to the point as far as I'm concerned, and the specifics of that do not need to be addressed publicly.

: This is not a discussion of the demarcation between Discord and the wiki, and I don't find Fullerton's response above to be at all sufficient or even relevant. This discussion is about his continued rights on the wiki and therefore needs to be had on-wiki. Patroller and Blocker are trusted roles, and Fullerton broke that trust. That isn't the kind of behaviour I would expect from staff, regardless of whether it was off-site or not. In my view, the fact that it was done in a third party chatroom frequented by users who are outright hostile towards myself and UESP staff actually makes it worse. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I apologize if I took the discussion a bit off-topic, but I do see the discontent among some users, myself among them, with the way the Discord channel is run as being at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. How it's run has a direct impact on how people behave, and more importantly, how they misbehave. That probably should be a separate discussion, however, if it needs to be had at all. At this point, I'm not sure I see much of a point. I agree with the above two posters that, wherever they are, staff on the wiki should try to behave appropriately when discussing the wiki. It's a fine line to draw for me, though, because people also need a place to vent.

:: What ''is'' important to me here is Legoless' comments. If he's not okay with his online name being linked to his real name publicly, then I'm not okay with it either. Even if the information is out there on the web, publicly presenting it is taking that a step further. Doing so in a room that's hostile towards him does indeed make it worse. Even if someone's venting, there's a time and a place for it, and a way to do it. That was not it.

:: So, while I think there are deeper issues, looking at this request in isolation, I'm not opposed to it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::: I'm just really sad by the whole situation. @Fullerton, I feel as though 90% of the interactions I've had with you over the past year have been positive. Maybe 9% have been frivolous, and 1% annoying or rude enough that I've had to pull you up on the behaviour. I'm not familiar with New Zealand culture and it's possible that it's much more casually racist than the British culture I'm familiar with. Then again, it could also be that you're young and suffering from a lot of peer pressure from friends who dare you to say something dodgy.

::: But look - it's NOT okay to post someone's real name online without their consent. I know you go by your actual legal name online, and that's your choice to do so - but it's also other people's choices to '''not''' do so. Nor is it okay to be casually racist towards other people who aren't your close friends. (I'd argue that it isn't okay to be casually racist at all, but I guess there is some banter between friends which sounds awful to other people listening yet is meant in a friendly way.)

::: I actually '''don't''' believe you should lose your Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki due to your behaviour on Discord, because your work on the wiki has been good. Apparently you have a few annoying editing quirks, but I bet everyone does until they've been here for many years. But you must understand - if you can't be trusted not to reveal someone's personal information on Discord, how do we know we can trust you not to deface wiki pages because you're angry? When you have the Patroller and Blocker roles, you have '''a lot''' more power to damage the wiki. UESP has been going for 22 years. As Lady N said, Bethesda use it to look up Lore they have forgotten, Zenimax use it to get ideas for Arena and Redguard places to revisit in ESO, and we know for a fact that Dire Wolf use it for reference from little oddities which have popped up in Legends. ''The wiki is more important than one person.''

::: I'm sorry that it's come to this. You're intelligent and energetic, and there's no reason on Earth for you to have randomly attacked a wiki admin "for the lols". You could be using that intelligence and energy for good. I hope that you will continue to work on the wiki, so that over time people will feel able to trust you again. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

===Edit Break 1===
I'm gonna ask any conversation about the running of the Discord server, or whether or not there is a precedent for cross-site or even off-site behavior is relevant to your standing on the wiki be shelved. The first is off topic, and the first one has a clear precedent from past incidents. If you would like to make suggestions for the running of the Discord, or the formalization or removal of the existing precedent relating to cross-site and off-site activity, please start a separate topic either here or on CP.

As far as for the actual issue, I would like for Fullerton to respond to the topic. Particularly, I would like for him to confirm that he understands what doxing is, and why it spawned this conversation. Additionally, I'd like for him to be able to provide a response in relation to this issue, before any decision is made relating to it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:As was stated, his real name has come up once or thrice and that led me to believe that he was alright with it being used. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by doxxing. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::Doxxing's a relatively new term, probably a few years old. It means deliberately/maliciously releasing someone's personal information (e.g., name, address, or phone number) when it wasn't generally known. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Robinhood is correct. With that said, if that is true why didn't you just say that before, instead of claiming ignorance to what his name was? Additionally, do you want to comment about the rest of your actions? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't mention it because I assume it wouldn't help my case, that "ignorance is no excuse" would be invoked. In regards to my actions on the Discord server, attempting to evade the dungeon was untenable. However, I would like to say that I am '''not''' an ableist, and I object to being called one. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 08:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::But now it seems/looks like you have been lying to us. How can we still trust your word then? --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::As someone that is in the aforementioned Discord server (which isn't as anti-UESP as portrayed and currently has only <s>one</s> two users who were banned from the UESP Discord server) and saw the immediate aftermath of Fullerton's actions, I will vouch for Fullerton in saying that he seemed genuinely surprised that the nickname he had set for Legoless was his actual name, so, while what could be considered as doxxing occurred, I do believe that it was completely unintentional on Fullerton's part, it might have been a lapse of memory and the specific name being subconsciously picked without conscious awareness that it was actually related to Legoless, but in any case, the intention was pretty clearly not malicious from everything I saw.

::::::Additionally, reading this discussion, it feels like Fullerton has been driven into a corner by you people, being forced to admit to things that don't necessarily correlate to the actual course of events, so either he is a masterful actor and played us all at TJ's server (which I highly doubt), or he's just bending over due to the pressure to try to find the easiest way out (this last paragraph being mostly directed at Ilaro's previous comment). [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 15:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I do not agree at all. If anything, he did put himself into the corner, and depending on what he told you, playing the victim. We gave him more than enough time to explain himself and apologizing without any pressure, but he felt the need to insult the staff and evading the soft ban instead (see the first two links Alarra posted). I am mostly disappointed that he did not even apologize for the doxing (or the racism, which he clearly admitted was the intention). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 17:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: With all due respect, Brynjar, Fullerton lied to you and your friends in the other server. Legoless's real-life surname is uncommon - not only have I literally never heard it before, but it also doesn't appear in the Top 100 Irish surnames lists that I've found online (one from the 1890s, the other from the 1990s). In order to get it correct, Fullerton would have had to know it.

:::::::: If instead of lying after the event and trying to involve all of you in the lie, Fullerton had simply turned around and said, "I'm sorry, it was a joke, I didn't realise Legoless didn't want his real name revealed" we wouldn't be here now. Refusing to publicly acknowledge that he's made a mistake is the exact thing that is making us question Fullerton's judgement, and whether he can be trusted with important wiki permissions. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 19:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} Let's all try to keep in mind that Fullerton is fifteen years old and on the autism spectrum. While it's not impossible, those don't generally go hand-in-hand with being a master manipulator. From what I've seen, he's doing his best to explain his actions but, being that age and not having a full comprehension of social interaction, he's not doing it in a way that neurotypical people would expect and want. And yeah, maybe like any teenager, he knows he's screwed up and just wants to figure out a way that'll get this over with the fastest, as opposed to something more appropriate, so he can move on and pretend this never happened. Being on the autism spectrum myself, I see quite clearly here the same types of mistakes I would have made at his age: not considering the effects of my actions on others and saying whatever was needed to make a problem go away, rather than having to interact with people in a negative way. That's autism!

The fact that he doesn't know how to respond in this situation may well be reason to go forward with the initial proposal, but let's also look at this from his perspective. How would you all have reacted when you were fifteen, caught doing something wrong, and everyone around you was older than you and yelling at you? It's not a fun position to be in. I'm not saying that should affect this decision, but it does give some important insight into Fullerton's responses to this conversation, I think.

Also, baratron raised an interesting point before the edit break. Does this mistake prevent him from patrolling or blocking in a responsible manner? The answer to that is clearly no from a purely logistical point of view. But we do have to consider the social and interpersonal ramifications of Fullerton's actions. Personally, I'm not convinced that removing him as a patroller and blocker will have any beneficial effect on the wiki, and I tend to think that Discord remedies should be sufficient for Discord problems in most cases. But, as I said above, I'm not opposed to the removal of rights, either. The simple fact is, an administrator here was affected because Fullerton didn't think his actions through, which is not really a desirable quality in someone with elevated rights. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:All right, I wasn't going to post, as I came back to the wiki/Discord right as this all happened and didn't see the build up to this (the "small" infractions e.g. the ableism), but I need to say something. Fullerton, your actions were inexcusable. It's not just the doxxing, or the admitted racism that went along with it. Your behavior has been deteriorating for a while. Even before I took my wikibreak, I had noticed that you seemed increasingly abrasive. And abrasive is not a good quality in a representative of the UESP. I was willing to overlook it, because you are young yet and have room to grow, but I cannot in good conscience allow this to continue. Even though I'm on the autism spectrum myself, I know to watch my words regarding other members of my community. Reclaiming words for yourself is one thing, but referring to ''other people'' that way without their knowledge or consent is, indeed, ableist. Just from that, I would have pushed for a time-out. As for the doxxing, I can't speak to the racism, but... Fullerton, you understand that doxxing is a ''violation'', right?

:I believe what this boils down to is consent, and a lack of respect for it. And that's a basic skill that nothing but time and experience can teach you, if ever. Add to that your defense to this incident, which has been... lacking at best, and I must advocate for demotion. Which is a shame, but a necessary one. —[[User:Likelolwhat|likelolwhat]] [[User talk:Likelolwhat|''talk lulzy to me'']] 20:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{Consensus|Removal of Rights|2=Alright, I think we've piled on enough. I'm calling this one now before it goes any further. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)}}

== OB:Efficient Leveling ==

[[OB:Efficient Leveling|Efficient Leveling]] may require protection to keep some utter nonsense off it. I've attempted to end it by contacting the user directly, but given that the user has had over a week to do the basic maths involved in discovering why it should not be on the page (5+5+5 does not equal 5+3+3), I hold no hope that they will come to understand that their edit should not remain on the page and will attempt to replace it again. I'm already on my third revert of the edit, and have no wish to get punished for keeping nonsense off a page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I've fully protected it for a period of 2 weeks. This shouldn't be a problem considering the low levels of editing attention that page has received in recent years, but if it needs to be lifted before then just let an admin know. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

== ESO Dragon Bones PTS Update ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS.

:* uespLog Addon -- Turn custom stats off (''/uespcustomstat off'') to stop a bug in the custom stat display otherwise you'll get error messages in most UI screens.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-17pts/ Files Uploaded] -- In progress...
:* Maps --
:* [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=17pts Skills] -- Done!
:* Skill Cooefficients --
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=17pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons --
:* Collectibles -- Updated to fix an issue with missing items from Live.

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

== UESP's Discord Server ==

As many of you no doubt noticed, I've recently referred to UESP's Discord chat as "dysfunctional". As the person on the wiki with the most rights next to Dave (out of the active users, at any rate), I am at all times aware that it's my duty to attempt to be professional and fair-minded in all things UESP related, so that is not a statement I make lightly. Administrators don't speak against administrators, generally, and when they do, it should be noted. That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why ''four different current- or ex-staff members'' are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming, and only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional. My concerns about how it's run are numerous, so I'll try to break them down into meaningful groups.
* '''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave. During my time on the server, I saw numerous examples of questionable behaviour on his part, including lying, manipulating, interfering in matters outside our server, and outright paranoia that another administrator was out to get him, simply for calling him on some of his behaviours. While those incidents are long gone and not worth getting into at this point, particularly since I have no way of bringing forth evidence at the moment, I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.
* '''Staff''': Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff (if even that). Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.
* '''Accountability/Transparency''': Continuing on from that last, far ''far'' too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public. When members complain, they then sound like trouble-makers. If the complaints escalate, they may even come to ''be'' trouble-makers, simply out of frustration. This needs to change. Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it. If the chatroom is cleared or deleted for any reason, chat logs should be kept and posted publicly, in order to ensure full transparency on any decisions.
* Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making. Even ''in'' political discussions, staff need to be certain that they're not being unnecessarily "twitchy" when it comes to deleting messages or moderating users. If any can be found, I think a few responsible, moderate right-wing people should be brought on as staff, to balance everyone else out and make sure the echo chamber phenomenon isn't perpetuated.
* I understand that the "dungeon" channel has been renamed, and I thank you all for that. This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff. The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help. In this configuration, staff have ''every'' advantage (numbers, increased rights, ability to discuss approach and strategy without the user's knowledge, to name a few), while the accused has none. That needs to be significantly altered. While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing. If the room is to be cleared or deleted afterwards, chat logs should be maintained and published publicly for future reference. Similarly, even if the chat takes place in a private room, chat logs should be maintained in a private location, accessible to all staff in any part of UESP. This will not only help to ensure continued transparency and accountability, it will also allow staff from other parts of the site to be aware of any problem behaviour occurring elsewhere.
* At ''no time'' should any administrator ever delete any comment, theirs or anyone else's, from any discussion relating to rules or discipline. If you say something that came out wrong or was inaccurate or what have you, apologize and move forwards. If you say something that you realize could get you in trouble, well, guess what? You're an administrator...you're accountable for what you say and do! Deal with the consequences like a responsible admin.
* '''Rules''': In far too many cases, rules are developed on an ad-hoc basis. An example from Fullerton's discussion, above, would be not posting the contents of the moderation room to a public room. That's not a rule that was posted anywhere prior to that. From all accounts, it was made up on the fly. If Fullerton wasn't just doing it to spam channels or leak private information, he had every right to post the contents of a discussion about him to wherever he felt it appropriate to do so. After all, it's a discussion about him, and he maintains absolute control over that information. If administrators felt that they said or did something they didn't want public in that chat, well, maybe they shouldn't have done that thing in the first place! I don't know if that's the case here, but accountability is one of the places I feel our Discord server needs the most work, so I'm bringing it up again here as an example.
* Similarly, all rules should be posted publicly to the wiki's Discord page, or a subpage, so that people can know what they are before joining, if they choose to look. This will also help maintain a record of when rules were enacted or changed.
* '''Cross-platform Interactions''': As a rule, what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server. I'm not just referring to the recent issue with Fullerton, but rather, reminding everyone of a rule that has long been in place and has sometimes been ignored: no decisions made on the Discord server should be applied to the wiki, forums, or wherever else, without there being a full discussion on the relevant platform. You can always post chat logs, if needed. Bringing this back to Fullerton, however, I feel that much of what happened was probably blown out of all proportion, from what I've been able to tell in chats with those involved. At best, I feel that this was a borderline case as to whether it should have been brought to the wiki. So, I'm going to suggest that we use this as "the line". If it's less serious of an incident than Fullerton's, keep Discord discipline limited to Discord. We don't need to perpetuate drama across the entire site. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

::Rob has hit all of the points I've had some concern about, and after telling me he was making the post, I wanted to throw in my agreement with each post. I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally. If there were any concerns, they could be brought up knowing it would be fairly handled either there or on our Administration Noticeboard. I feel like that's not the case at all in Discord, and when I was there, I had a handful of users DM me because they were upset that there was such a clear clique and pecking order established in the Discord. There's a lot more emphasis on authority and enforcement, rather than peaceful moderation, and it's affecting how comfortable people are - myself included - when using the Discord, hence my departure from it.

::Users shouldn't have to be concerned that what they say will be picked apart by a cabal (and I hate using this word) that seems to exist in the Discord where the staff are ganging up on people who can't adequately defend themselves. Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.

::I also agree with Rob's thoughts about how leadership is elected, and I feel like going forward there should be a clear election process or consensus to decide who is capable of being a staff member, because at present, I see questionable decisions on who should be staff, and I feel like there should be clear guidelines in place and a nomination process, not existing staff arbitrarily chosing people on their own, as I feel they've been prone to do. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 23:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

:::@RH While you are making some interesting points and some of them could definitely addressed, I still think you are way too exaggerating the problems on Discord. The dungeon channel, for example, is the alternative for outright banning. There is a reason that the person does not have access to the other channels, because it is (mostly) used a soft-ban. I will comment about the other points at another time, because I certainly believe some of them are (partly) right and some of the rules might be changed to reflect these concerns.
:::For now I want to point out this statement from Damon: "where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with." I have no idea why he said that, because everyone in that discussion is in the top 100 of most edits this year (and Damon, you are not there, but I ''do'' still think you have the right to pop-up into this conversation). I believe everyone has the right to have their say, because the wiki concerns a lot more people than only the editors. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I know I have not been an active user of Discord, having only used it about 3 times, but having read the post above, here and in the Fullerton case, my experience of basically being in charge of discipline on IRC (having kicked more people than the bot in charge of auto-kicking), and being one of the most active when I was there, I feel I can contribute/make observations from my experience there.
::::Almost every case of discipline was public, warnings, discussion, actions. Only very rarely did something discipline-wise happen off-channel, usually in private messaging, and usually only to bring attention to something that would then lead back into the public room. This is almost the same as happens on the wiki for demotions, punishments, warnings, even disputes about certain edits, with only a few instances of discussions happening via email. This is a very important point for avoiding accusations of cliquishness, even if it can't stop it. It actually helped that being a "staff" member on the wiki auto-entitled you to IRC status, as the wiki had little knowledge of a persons social leanings if they hadn't been on IRC.
::::The description of the multiple channels reinforces the observation that the channel is not being run for social interaction anymore, given the abundance of rules regarding where you have to post certain things; why are you not allowed to have fun in the main channel. That is an indictment of the current running of the channel, and I would suggest that the aforementioned Bethesda and Zenimax visitors would find that rather sad that no-one is having fun in case they "spoil" whatever passes for enjoyment in that stale environment. The IRC had an unwritten rule that you could have fun until someone needed help or to discuss something wiki/series related, and again it was rarely broken; this also lead to having many people in the channel who knew little about the games but were there to talk socially, making the place more enjoyable.
::::An overabundance of rules only tells people that you don't trust them to behave without them. I personally have probably broken every rule that wikipedia has cared to invent, yet respect most of them and enforce them when they are actually needed. Things thrive best when there are less rules, because the few that remain actually mean something. The current Discord wiki page is still not complete (a particular section is still linking back to the IRC page waiting for someone to adapt it for Discord). Nevertheless, it should not become full of rules as a result, and should continue the kind of informal style of the IRC page. I would also suggest that a complete rethink of all the rules be done, with some or many done away with, and also roll some of the off-shoot channels back into the main one, or merge some of the side ones together (less is so very much more).
::::Finally, a persons behaviour is their behaviour. An admins actions on IRC was an admins actions on the wiki. Even a persons actions off-site when representing the site should be held against them. This can be traced as far back as rpeh's admin rights removal for his actions off-site. When you become a staff member particularly, you are even-more-so representing the site, a responsibility you accept when you request or accept a role. However, back to IRC, an off-hand remark would often be forgotten if an apology was made, given the real-time nature of the network, only more serious actions would have led to something as big as rights-removals on the wiki (this is not a comment on the above discussion). To state it again, if RobinHood70 were to go anywhere on the internet and start doing reprehensible things (like saying my grammar is awful), and we knew it was him, he should be held accountable on the wiki and any of its offshoots (eg twitter/facebook management).
::::Feel free to ignore any of my advice/experience given my utter lack of Discord experience, just as I will continue to avoid social interaction with every one of you for the foreseeable future, given my right-wing stance on treating people with dignity and respect. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::First of all, I'd like to thank RobinHood for bringing this issue to the Noticeboard, and even more so with his resounding points, with which I agree in full in all cases.

:::::I have been one of the most active users in the UESP Discord server for close to an year or so (being on number 4 in the leaderboard - which is based roughly on the number of messages sent in the server - for quite a long period), until I voluntarily left a month ago due to my escalating issues with the moderation and administration of the server. My draft for this post got considerably long so I'll try to bullet point my issues and concerns to try for a more concise and cohesive post:

:::::* Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job. As expressed by some staff members on the server itself, some of them do not even want to moderate and administer the server, and many others have no idea what they’re doing, which has led and will certainly lead to a series of bad and questionable decisions, even more so given the apparent top to bottom hierarchy and authority even among the staff members.

:::::* Divide between the staff and the community: while a difference between the wiki staff and the general public is certain to be expected, it has been made unhealthy by the server privileges given to the wiki staff, creating a sub community that most of the time seems to behave as if they were above the “regular” users, which shouldn’t be the case, given that the server is open to the public. Interactions between most staff members (with exceptions) and the rest of the community are also fairly limited, creating a big divide in the general interpretation of the actions to be taken, which are made exclusively by this more secluded and reserved group than by the biggest share of the active user base; and, as RH said, without consultation or open discussion with that part of the community.

:::::* Poor and inconsistent moderation/decision making: staff behaviour in regards to rule enforcement and problem-solving is completely inconsistent, while one staff might be strict, many others are extremely lax or never actually do anything, and even when the staff intervene, the actions taken vary absurdly from one to the next, and most of the time the staff board as a whole is extremely reactionary and ready to blow something minor and irrelevant out of proportion, making the many suffer for the sins of the one. It seems to me that the staff members lack a good guideline (if they have one at all) on how to treat the server, which ties in to the first point, of staff members not prepared to handle a chat server or unwilling to do so.

:::::Other than that, I would like to stress the points about Accountability and Cross-platforming that RH has made, which I believe are very important here. And despite what Ilaro has to say, all of these are very serious problems for the well-functioning of a chat server and the UESP server specifically, and all of the users I interact with on a more frequent basis, either on UESP or the other six TES servers I’m a part of, all notice and are bothered with most of the points raised here. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 01:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{ec|4}} I didn't bring it up further because the discussion was about Fullerton's rights on the wiki, not your opinion on the Discord server. But I must say that I was rather put out by your comment that the server is "dysfunctional". And maybe it is, if that ideal of functionality is based on the functionality a wiki. But Discord is not a wiki, it's an instant messaging and VoIP service, which is an entirely different medium.
::::::'''Ownership''': While I agree that technically it would be better if Dave was the server owner, I don't think he is active enough on Discord for that to actually be practical. A Discord server needs an active server owner so that they are available to deal with whatever issues crop up that only the server owner can deal with.
::::::'''Staff''': The original assignment of Discord staff based on being elected staff elsewhere on UESP is untenable. It was mentioned to us numerous times that a number of staff elsewhere have been avoiding the Discord because they didn't want to be staff on Discord. Everyone who was initially appointed as Discord staff this way has, as far as I am aware, now been contacted though to see whether they actually want to remain Discord staff or not. So that whole thing actually didn't make sense at all, as it was putting people into a position they didn't want. When it comes to appointing new staff, it appears to work the same way that it does here. Someone is approached by current staff with the suggestion. I think it's a very rare occurrence for someone to actually put themselves forward for a staff position of their own volition, or even with encouragement from other users, without at least one of those other users being staff already.
::::::'''Accountability/Transparency''': I actually don't understand the issue here. It is common practice for administration to be discussed in a private channel that is specifically for discussing administration. If that was done in a public channel, then effectively everyone is now an administrator. Although I do agree that anything that would have an effect on the entire userbase should be discussed with the entire userbase, I can't think of any examples right now where that has actually happened. (I'm sure you can though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up, so I'd be interested in having some examples.)
::::::There does appear to be an "anti-anything-remotely-right" bias, which I think may cause any staff members who are not left-leaning, if they do exist, to not make it obvious.
::::::Yes, the dungeon channel is now called "mediation". Whenever the channel is cleared, the contents are logged and are available to other staff on request. The isolation from the rest of the server is intentional - being put in the "dungeon", as was, is effectively banning someone from the rest of the server without actually kicking them from the server (you can't talk to them if they're kicked). It originally existed solely for this purpose; someone isn't banned if they can still access the other channels. This has been repurposed however, and I think can now serve as a "public" moderation chatroom, if such a thing would ever be required (but I can't think of any examples why it would be, as then it could just be discussed in #general).
::::::I'm not sure what your "deleting comments" sentence is getting at. Comments that violate the rules would of course be deleted, but I don't think that's what you mean...
::::::'''Rules''': On that specific example, a rule that has existed since the initial staff overhaul in October is ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential"''. Since that rule only applies to staff, only staff can see it, to avoid confusing the rest of the userbase. Fullerton was well aware of this rule, and anyone who is suspended to the moderation channel is informed of it as well.
::::::While conceptually similar to the IRC, I think the way Discord has grown means that "token AOPs and HOPs" is just not a viable moderation method. The (rather high) number of staff required to maintain a large server probably does make it seem like there's a clique, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on how we can try to avoid that, yet while still maintaining necessary server integrity.
::::::I do not see anyone who commented on Fullerton's case who is not a regular/active UESP wiki contributor, based on the active editors from the last 12 months. Although it would be up to whoever decides what "consensus" actually is to determine whether consensus can be reached based on the currently-involved participants.
::::::Regarding how staff are chosen, I have no idea how it works on the Forums, but however it works there is probably the best model to use as a base for what we do on Discord. A forum is much more similar to a chat server than a wiki. Having a two-week discussion to reach someone's arbitrary definition of "consensus" is not a viable basis.
::::::In conclusion however, if "what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server", surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it'', and then be involved in the implementation process of actually making the thing better. "Fixing a broken system that we didn't realise was broken" is what I've been doing at work for the past three months, and the best progress towards a resolution always comes out of a discussion where a clear direction of what to do next is given.

::::::@Silencer: If there appears to be a "rule against fun" in the main channel on Discord, let me know where that seems to have stemmed from, as that's not something I would support (although given how active the main channel usually is, I don't actually see it). Also if there is a general feeling that there is an overabundance of rules, I'd be happy to discuss trying to cut them down, if we can work out what's not actually needed.

::::::@Bryn: Immediate moderation rights for staff was a concept that was based on trust. i.e., "if they're trusted to moderate elsewhere, they're trusted to moderate Discord too". But we realised this was not what many of the other staff wanted, and as such, this is no longer the case, and all who were initially appointed like this have (I think) been contacted to ask if they wish to continue. Anyone newly appointed to a staff position elsewhere on UESP retains that original concept of "trust" though, and by that reasoning, are still asked if they would be interested in moderating Discord based on that. Any suggestions for improving staff/community interaction would be welcome, but I maintain what I said before that server moderation cannot be a community activity. There is definitely inconsistency within staff behaviour, but I don't actually know how that can be improved, as everyone will have their own way of doing things. In terms of actual rule enforcement (i.e., moderation), there is no reason that shouldn't be consistent if the rules are the same for everyone. Again, if people who "are bothered" by this come forward with their problems ''and solutions'', then there is no reason that we can't address these.
::::::--[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Eno: I appreciate the changes being made, and while I can see the reasoning for the trust factor, I think a competence qualification should also be looked for in a communication medium that works fundamentally different from what those people are used to moderate. I have proposed the following solution at least two times publicly on Discord and a few times directly to staff members, but it has so far been ignored. What I've always proposed is a divorce between wiki staff and Discord staff; there should be specific roles and channels for wiki and forum and guild and what-have-you staff, for sure, so that they can discuss topics that concern their specific roles, but those people should not also be made or necessarily even asked to become moderators for the server, and this should instead be relegated to members picked for showing aptness to follow and enforce rules and integrity in chat, kinda like I hear the "Tea Party Moderators" were selected (although I think this current approach is still flawed). I didn't go at length with this suggestion in my previous comment because it was already too long as it was and I felt it was detracting myself from making the points I thought needed to be made. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 02:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::{{ec}} @Enodoc: I'll respond more fully later, as it'll take some time for me to really go through this point by point, but I did want to respond to one thing that may help clarify my attitude and actions here. Specifically, your suggestion that ''surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it''.''

::::::::The problem here is that in taking this discussion to the Discord server, we are stating that we're willing to rejoin the server in its current state. I, for one, am not. I do not want to be seen as supporting it in any way right now. Yes, I think it's actually that dysfunctional, or at least it was the last time I was there. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if a discussion of the server takes place ''on'' the server, staff there are under absolutely no obligation to do anything whatsoever about the suggestions made and, unless we all go there together at the same time, any individual comments will be lost in the chatter of the general channel. The user could well be deemed a trouble-maker and have their comments deleted. Even if it did become a highly active discussion there, as you can see from some of the comments here, trust in some of the Discord staff is not high among some users. We simply have no confidence that any discussion held on the server wouldn't simply be deleted. By holding it here, on the wiki, it's not in Discord staff's hands, and a full, permanent record is available to any and all without requiring them to join UESP's Discord. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}I'll preface this by saying that I am one of the "current or former patrollers" mentioned above who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that the UESPWiki Discord server is being run. Make of that what you will.

One of the most serious issues I attempted to raise during my (brief) time in the channel was the lack of transparency which seems to have become endemic since the move was made from IRC. This has manifested itself most notably in the deletion of the block logs page - Fullerton also attempted to address that, above. Frankly, I don't feel Alarra's argument that a public list of banned users would encourage misbehavior holds any water, and I'd appreciate some clarification of this claim, if she’d be so kind.

Is there a precedent that's made you feel this way? Do you feel the same way about the [[Special:BlockList|block logs]] on the wiki? Should they be privatized on the basis that they might encourage infamy? I moderated the [[UESPWiki:IRC|now defunct IRC channel]] for more than three years, and during that time the [[UESPWiki:IRC/Bans|channel block log]] was maintained meticulously, because it was understood that the chat was simply an extension of the wiki, and so the same rules applied - including record keeping. I’m disturbed to see that this commitment to openness has fallen by the wayside so completely, and in such a short amount of time.

On the topic of record keeping, I find the accusation levelled against Fullerton that he ''"posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created)"'' really, really worrying, and actually symptomatic of a much larger culture of silence. If a user feels uncomfortable with the way that staff are treating them, and feels they're being dealt with unfairly, they shouldn't just be permitted to raise the issue elsewhere - they should be encouraged to do so.

''"He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users."'' Once again, where on the Discord guidelines page does it say that this is grounds for removal of role? Why is this grounds for punishment at all? Conversations with staff members are not top-secret information - if someone feels uncomfortable with the way a staff member has spoken to them, and feels that policy has been violated, they're within their rights to consult another user for a second opinion. A second set of eyes can offer valuable insight. Ordinarily, going to another, unbiased staff member would be preferable, but that's difficult if you feel there ''aren't'' any unbiased staff members.

I’ll admit this part of the post struck a chord with me, personally. In the past, I was repeatedly bullied and called horrible names by a member of wiki staff, in a series of IRC private messages which began under the guise of a reprimand for misbehaviour. This bully had been on the site far longer than I had, and was a well-established member of the community; I was the same age at the time as Fullerton is now, and I had no idea how to react. I firmly hold that distributing the logs of those discussions was the right thing to do, even if it was a technical violation of the rules; it meant that others were able to tell me that yes, this was something inappropriate and no, I wasn’t at fault. People in authority are not above authority. The user in question was ultimately blocked, which should tell you all you need to know. Transparency of moderator behaviour is important to ensure fairness and equality.

''"Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers."'' In other words, anyone who disagrees with the actions taken by the moderation staff - even if those actions have no written basis and are made up on the fly - should be blacklisted regardless of prior behaviour. Good to know.

''"Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business."'' This one speaks for itself, I think, as to the contempt some current staff members hold for the users they preside over, but I'd like to quote the page on [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]] anyway:

''"All editors' opinions should be given equal weight. In particular, administrators do not have inherently greater authority than other editors. Because of their greater experience with the UESPWiki, administrators may have more knowledge of how content is currently organized on the site, or be able to refer to similar examples on other wiki pages. Therefore, administrators (and experienced editors) may be able to provide more support for their position. Their reasoning, rather than their status, may therefore cause their opinion to influence a discussion."'' Ahem.

''"The reason we created (the #dungeon) is to have time to let all moderators give input."'' Some of the moderators on the Discord server were not, in fact, elected by the wiki community at all. Yet they're being treated - and are behaving - as though they were not only administrators, but final arbiters of justice. Are staff who were given their positions with no input from the people they're supposed to be moderating really qualified to do so?

These quotes all illustrate a wider lack of accountability by the staff members to the community as a whole. Other examples of bad practice can be seen in instances where [[Skyrim_talk:Proudspire_Manor#Transclusion_to_Houses|consensus is reached]] [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|on Discord with no input]] from the wider editor base, the argument being made that anyone who wants to partake in discussions should simply use Discord, or in Dillon deciding to make [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Discord&diff=1697969&oldid=1696580 significant changes to the guidelines] by removing the part which said that all staff members were equal in the channel with absolutely no discussion at all. The fallout from that little change was the creation of a "non-staff patroller" role, once again without any discussion, which was allocated to certain blacklisted users. Unsurprisingly, no mention of this distinction is made on the page.

If we go further back, we can see [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans|AKB unilaterally deleting the block logs]] page, on the basis that it “serves no purpose.” I beg to differ in the strongest possible terms, and I know I’m not the only one. I was told in the channel that the reason for this decision was actually because it was inconvenient to keep it updated; judging by Alarra’s post above, that narrative has been amended retroactively.

Another problematic aspect of the channel was the consistent jeering, mocking and snide remarks by the staff about a specific, very active wiki editor, behind his back. Since I haven't preserved the logs of this bullying, and since it took place publicly only on occasion, with the majority of the vitriol being espoused in a private channel by the administrative staff, it doesn't particularly serve as evidence, but I certainly wasn't the only person to witness it. As far as I know the user who was the subject of these taunts is still unaware that this ever occurred, or that he was frequently the butt of the administration’s jokes.

I myself was also mocked, publicly, by an administrator after I left the UESPWiki server; several users I shared servers with told me separately that I had been “dissed” by someone who was supposedly a role model. That’s not on. As Lady N so succinctly put it, this is about people ''“who (have) been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.”''

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. The recent behaviour of some members has been the opposite of that. You’re there to serve the community, not to rule over it. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 02:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:Again I want to comment about the accusations that are held against Discord. There are so many points now that I have no time (now) to discuss them, but [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|this]] link you shared @KitKat shows the contrary of what you are arguing. One: it was an edit that added a merge ''proposal''. Two: it was brought to the wiki ''because'' it was something that should reach consensus here and not on Discord. It is impossible to keep all ideas and brainstorming on the wiki when there is another chat platform available and I don't see the problem with asking input and refining ideas before making edits (Most edits are already made without any pre-knowledge of other editors, only larger ideas and problems are brought to the talk pages and/or community portal and this is/should still be the case if Discord is used as a mediator). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 03:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::Because one of my edits was mentioned specifically, I'd like to respond to that. The edit to UESPWiki:Discord was simply to reflect the current setup of the roles and channels at that time. I did not intend to change any guidelines, and if I did it was a mistake. I can definitely understand having a discussion on the talk page first before making major changes to the staff roles on Discord. However, these changes were already decided (and not by me personally) when I made that edit so I was updating outdated information. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Could you point me to the discussion held on the wiki (ie; on the [[UESPWiki_talk:Discord|talk page]] for the Discord server, the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|Admin Noticeboard]], or the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|Community Portal]]) where it was decided unanimously that all staff members on the server were no longer equal to one another? Because that's the sentence you removed: "There are three staff roles with equal standing" was amended so that it no longer stated each staff role was equal. That's a significant departure from the previous content of the page; when was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? And for that matter, why was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? You haven't said in your edit summary. As a patroller myself, I had and have a vested interest in this discussion, but I wasn't invited to participate at all. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 03:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I think you are misunderstanding the change. The staff-related permissions of Blocker, Patroller, Moderator, and Officer were merged into the Staff role. Patroller gives access to the #patrolling channel, but otherwise the roles serve only to identify ranks outside Discord. I removed the "equal standing" bit because the result was a single staff role and equal standing is redundant when you have one role. As for admins being above regular staff, the sentence was referring to the four previous staff roles, not admins and staff together. It was already the case that admins were above staff and my edit did not change that. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::Yes, but some members who currently have the "Staff" role '''aren't actually blockers or patrollers'''. They have no elevated role on the wiki or the forums. They can't block people or patrol things, even if they want to. Having this multifaceted role denoting permissions which they don't, in reality, possess, is ridiculous and makes a mockery of the administration as a whole. It's also needlessly confusing. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 04:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T03:29:52Z

Kitkat1749: Reply

[[Category:Message Boards]][[Category:UESP Administration]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<div style="float:right">{{Scrolling Archive Table|class=collapsible collapsed|height=225px|width=300px
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 1|Archive 1|February 2005 – June 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 2|Archive 2|June 2006 – August 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 3|Archive 3|September 2006 – June 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 4|Archive 4|June 2007 – July 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 5|Archive 5|August 2007 – October 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 6|Archive 6|October 2007 – November 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 7|Archive 7|December 2007 – January 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 8|Archive 8|January 2008 – February 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 9|Archive 9|February 2008 – August 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 10|Archive 10|September 2008 – October 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 11|Archive 11|November 2008 – December 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 12|Archive 12|December 2008 – March 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 13|Archive 13|April 2009 – December 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14|Archive 14|January 2010 – May 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 15|Archive 15|June 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 16|Archive 16|June 2010 – October 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 17|Archive 17|November 2010 – January 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 18|Archive 18|February 2011 – April 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 19|Archive 19|May 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 20|Archive 20|June 2011 – August 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 21|Archive 21|September 2011 – October 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 22|Archive 22|November 2011 – December 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 23|Archive 23|December 2011 – February 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 24|Archive 24|February 2012 – March 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25|Archive 25|April 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 26|Archive 26|May 2012 – June 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 27|Archive 27|July 2012 - August 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 28|Archive 28|August 2012 - October 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 29|Archive 29|October 2012 - December 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 30|Archive 30|January 2013 - March 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 31|Archive 31|March 2013 - June 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 32|Archive 32|July 2013 - November 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 33|Archive 33|December 2013 - February 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 34|Archive 34|March 2014 - August 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 35|Archive 35|August 2014 - November 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 36|Archive 36|November 2014 - September 2015
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 37|Archive 37|March 2015 - February 2016
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 38|Archive 38|March 2016 - May 2017
}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}</div>
The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions.

'''Before starting a discussion here,''' please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.
{{Example Table|
Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
{{Bullet Link|[[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|Policies and Guidelines]]|A category listing of policies and guidelines, which each have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies (see [[#Active Discussions|Active Discussions]] for links to active policy discussions).}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism]]| Discussions regarding vandalism and spam.}}
{{Bullet Link|Community Portal|The main discussion forum used for community-wide discussions about UESP's operations, policies, design, and improvement.}}
{{Bullet Link|Reference Desk|This is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.}}
{{Bullet Link|Community Portal/Templates|Technical issues regarding templates and related issues can be discussed on this page.}}
Specific requests can be made on these pages:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Bot Requests|Bot Requests]]|This page can be used to request that one of the wiki's bots take on a task.}}
{{Bullet Link|Image Requests|You can request specific images for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|Creation Kit Information Requests|You can request specific Creation Kit information for articles here.}}
{{Bullet Link|New Page Requests|You can request a new page here if you were prevented from creating the page yourself.}}
{{Bullet Link|Purge Requests|If you are having problems viewing an article on UESP, the page may need to be purged. New purge requests can be made here.}}
In addition, past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard can be found at:
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives#Chronological_Archives|AN Archives]]|Lists all of the past discussions from the Administrator Noticeboard, including major discussions and chronological archives.}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archives#Past_Administrative_Requests|Past Administrative Requests]]|A list of all previous requests for administrator and other administrative requests.}}
}}

== Getting redirected to mobile pages ==

After some debugging I've reached the conclusion that this is happening because of the Squid cache server you use: a user visits a page from his mobile phone, and the mobile version of the page gets cached in the Squid server. The next person who loads the page gets the mobile version, regardless of what platform he's browsing from, because that's what's saved in the Squid cache.

This only happens to unregistered users, since logged in users don't have their caches paged by Squid. If it happens to you, you can press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Squid to bypass its own cache and serve you the current page.

But, please, fix it. It is very annoying. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 17:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the note...this shouldn't be the case as the desktop and mobile versions of the page are different URLS (en.uesp.net and en.m.uesp.net) but a quick test seems to agree with you. I'll check it out further and see if it can be fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::So I must have got really lucky with my quick tests as I can't recreate the issue in on other page or with the original page (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa) once I purge it. If you can give some more explicit examples of how you are testing it so we can replicate that would be great. Squid does cache using the full URL so it would seem that this is not the complete issue at the very least. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::One of your assumptions is wrong. All users get the mobile theme from en.uesp.net, provided they have the user-agent of a mobile browser.
:::A quick way to reproduce this with a computer would be like this. '''Do all of this while logged off!'''
:::* Open Google Chrome and hit F12, this will open the developer tools toolbox. At the top-left side of this toolbox, the second icon next to the mouse cursor is a mobile and a tablet ("Toggle device toolbar"), click it. You'll see the current page has stretched; click the dropdown on top of it that says "Responsive" and switch it to some mobile phone, "Galaxy S5" is OK. Now, you're sending the user-agent of a Samsung mobile phone.
:::* Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa -- depending on who visited it the last time, it'll be the full or the mobile version.
:::* Press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Chrome to reload the page, telling the web server to completely disregard the cache. This will make Squid destroy its own cache and ask MediaWiki for the webpage. You'll see the mobile version appear as it should: MediaWiki is being told you're a mobile phone, and therefore you're getting the wiki with the mobile theme.
:::* Open a new tab. This time, it's the normal browser; you're not pretending to be a mobile. Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa You'll get the mobile version of the wiki. This confirms it's cached in Squid like that because you just visited it from a mobile phone. Press Ctrl+Shift+R, this way Squid will destroy its cache and ask MediaWiki again for the webpage. You'll get the full version, because you have the user-agent of a computer.
:::* Switch back to the mobile tab. Click the URL field and press enter to reload the webpage making sure you're '''not''' bypassing the Squid cache. You'll get the full version of the page, because that's what you cached. If you press Ctrl+Shift+R again from here, you'll get the mobile version.
:::* And so on.
:::I hope you can reproduce it. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 18:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::::Ahh, that was it. For some reason the "autodetect" portion was still on. I turned that off and have to figure out how to auto-redirect mobile devices to the mobile site (which I thought it was doing). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I made some changes which include a forced redirect to the mobile site to prevent the cache poisoning. Give it a go and see if that works for you now or not. It seems that MobileFrontEnd doesn't redirect itself and it is handled by another part of MediaWiki or the HTTP server in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::tyvm. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::Well, I have just realised this keeps happening. The only difference now is that instead of the whole mobile page being cached, what's cached is the redirect to en.m.uesp.net, but the effect is the same. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 11:04, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Of course it does...:) I made a quick change to try and prevent Squid from caching the 302 redirect. Once again it "seems" to work in a few quick tests but if you find otherwise let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Also had to make an unrelated change in order to get HTTPS to work for the mobile changes so the "en.m.uesp.net" mobile sites are no longer going through Squid which prevents them from being cached at all (at least for the moment until I can figure out multiple SSL certificates in Squid 2.x). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}Starting a new line - i have noticed that this has started happening again recently. (Like before, its fairly annoying, as it autochanges every time). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Testing New Ad Network ==

I happened to have a chat with some from Curse recently who mentioned that they run an ad network for gaming related sites which includes better vetting of ads to reduce/eliminate the number of "bad ads" (auto scrolling, auto playing, inappropriate content, etc...). I've signed up for a 2 month test run with them to supply all the ads on UESP during this time. I'm setting it up this week so except a bunch of changes from day to day. I'm hoping this give us roughly the same revenue to keep the site running and reduce user frustration with ads.

If you run into page errors or ad issues of any kind don't hesitate to let me know (Curse ads are not yet active). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:I'm sure a lot of people will be happy if it is an improvement. Some others will be happier with the new puns available (including the ability to Curse ads). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

::In a confused second I found myself looking for the "Like" button to express my support. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 20:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if this is an error, but as of today, AdBlock blocks ads but leaves a blank space at the top where the ad was, instead of collapsing that blank space. I'm also seeing ads at the top when logged in (or a blank space if AdBlock is enabled), but I have not logged in for a while so I don't know if that is new or was intentionally changed. '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►t]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►e]] 14:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

::::I have the same blank space as Vely, however I don't see any ads at all and I don't even have an ad blocker. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm not one to complain about blank spaces if they are caused by ad-blockers, but I've just tested with Chrome and Opera (as well as my use of Firefox) and the blank spaces at both the top and bottom are persisting when the inbuild blockers are active. The blank space can be rather off-putting and looks odd, so something should be done, whether removing it or putting one of those explanatory messages about why ads are needed. Feels odd to be cursing the lack of ads. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I did not even know there was an inbuilt blocker in Chrome, and I have certainly not actively turned it on. (Where is the setting for that?) Still there are these blank spaces on the top and bottom of the articles where the ads were supposed to be. How can this ad network give any revenue if the more common browsers are blocking the ads by default? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:My mistake, Chrome is planning to add one (by next year), I thought they already had one. Without my installed one the ads appear, with it blank spaces. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

::All the more an issue. The ads are not there on my Chrome. Just an empty space over the article and an empty space under it. And I have no known adblock software. The ads are there with Edge. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 17:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I have got the ads now, with no change in my settings. (Still Chrome on Win10) —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 05:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As a temporary workaround for the top ad taking up space when it shouldn't, I've added a means of suppressing that specific ad altogether. To do so, just add <code>#topad { display:none; }</code> to [[Special:Mypage/common.css|your common.css]] page on a new line. See [[User:RobinHood70/common.css|mine]] if you want an example. A few provisos: only logged-in users can do this, since IP users can't customize their CSS (at least, not via the wiki), and this may change or be removed at any point, since it's not an ideal long-term solution and it will obviously depend whether we want to keep the new ads in the long-run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless I'm missing something this isn't active wiki-wide nor have I touched my cs, yet the top space is gone. I've logged in and out, and on both Firefox and Opera the space is gone, though it remains on Chrome (no adblocker). Perhaps it just needed a purge with the new ads? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

::Somehow, I'm not really surprised, even though nothing I did should have had that effect. There have been a lot of different reports of ads, space, or nothing, with no apparent rhyme or reason. Caching of some kind could well be part of the problem. At least for those who are just getting a big blank space, this'll let them get rid of it. I'm largely leaving the rest to Dave, though, because I don't actually know what all was involved with the new ads, and there's clearly things affecting them that I'm unaware of, so I didn't want to poke around too much. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Can we go back to the old ads please? Or at the very least block the ones with autoplaying videos. I've been getting those on every other page, and you'll probably go deaf if you dare open more than 2 tabs. There's no way to report them, and I don't think the Steam Overlay browser supports any adblockers. [[Special:Contributions/98.18.163.16|98.18.163.16]] 00:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I see all these postings about video ads, but I can not seem to have registered any of them myself. Are there wide variations on who gets them and not? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 13:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect Escaping Issue ==

This is probably a pretty specific issue, but when you search with the <code>!uesp</code> bang on DuckDuckGo, it sends you to e.g. <code>www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim:skyrim&...</code> which gets 301 redirected to the appropriate language subdomain such as <code>en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim%253Askyrim&...</code>, but the search field seems to get double URL encoded in the process, so when it gets decoded after the redirect, colons show up as <code>%3A</code> in the search field and there's no results. This also happens with spaces, turning them into <code>%20</code>, so the search is basically unusable via the DDG bang. Hopefully this can be fixed, as it would otherwise be super convenient! [[User:DuBistKomisch|DuBistKomisch]] ([[User talk:DuBistKomisch|talk]]) 15:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

:This appears to be a problem with their coding, as it also fails when using it to search wikipedias subnamespaces. It appears they are using hex codes when converting, rather than the standard html codes used on mediawikis. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

== beyondskyrim.uesp.net? ==

I'd like to bring up the issue of this new wiki and point editors towards [http://beyondskyrim.uesp.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page this discussion]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless Dave has given his permission that wiki is infringing on our name and our site/servers. I don't believe it has permission seeing as it makes no sense to have a separate wiki on the same site, detracting from the main one, and it is duplicating the layout by wikipedia and not here. I can't see any links for contacting the site owners but if they are the same people as the ones editing here I suggest they either cease and desist or let it be known that they have dave's permission to use his servers. I've emailed Daveh, as others probably have too, to get this sorted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's hosted by us/Dave, apparently at the request of the mod authors. However, I also agree that it's damaging to our own Tes5Mod documentation to set up a competing wiki. If we're hosting it, it should be on our platform. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::: First of all, there's definitely no infringement issues, as it was set up by Dave together with one of the Beyond Skyrim team leaders. I hope Dave doesn't mind me posting this, but here's the discussion between myself and him after the BS developers concluded that they wanted to ditch their unused wiki at Dark Creations:
<pre>
Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Have you ever considered hosting other Elder Scrolls fan wikis?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
What other ES fan wikis?

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
The Beyond Skyrim guys are apparently looking to move their wiki out of Dark Creations.

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Ahh, I see
We could definitely host that for them if they'd like
We've hosted a bunch of small fan sites over the years.
TamrielRebuilt is one the larger ones (no longer with us but we had it for a while).

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Don't we still have TR stuff in the TES3Mod namespace? Or are they not using it any more?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Not sure what we have on the wiki, but they had their own web site/dev wiki seperate from ours.
I think we have some general info in the UESP wiki.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Ah OK.
Well thanks for the offer of hosting, I'll pass that on to them and see what they say!

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Yup, that goes for any ES site that happens to need hosting, temporary or otherwise.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Hmm, I will endeavour to remember that :smiley:
27 June 2017
</pre>
:::Now personally, if Dave is happy with the concept, then so am I, and since the BS wiki ''itself'' is a product of the BS team, then I don't think the UESP wiki administration has any say on whether it actually exists or not. The alternative would be that it's just hosted somewhere else. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: The Tamriel Rebuilt content we host is in-depth and high-standard, and includes the [[Tes4Mod:Stirk|Stirk Oblivion mod]] in addition to the main [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|TES3 project]] which is still updated by members of the modding team and UESP editors alike. The Tamriel Rebuilt [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ website] mentioned in the conversation above is not a (public) wiki. This Beyond Skyrim website, on the other hand, is in direct competition with UESPWiki. As you said, its existence is a decision for the modding team, but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to our own BS documentation if this goes ahead. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 18:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::The logic of having a semi-competing public wiki hosted on the same server wasn't really the concern for me. My concern was whether it had permission to be there and if it does then that's fine. There's not really any notes about what the wiki is for, or how it intends to avoid duplicity with existing content here (unless of course it intends to duplicate sections of the main wiki). This may all be due to it being in its infancy, but someone must surely have anticipated the anxiety such a wiki would create upon its creation and sought to allay any concerns by being open and upfront about its existence. The users on this wiki have always been concerned about the use of our materials without proper attribution or permission, and with good cause, so to see a new wiki using our name with no apparent endorsement was very concerning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::From the BS team's perspective, the draw for having a separate wiki over making use of Tes5Mod space was so that they had direct administrative control over it and were not bound by any of the UESP restrictions on what is actually allowed in modspace. The draw for them being hosted on the UESP server was ''intended'' to be to foster cross-cooperation between the two wikis; they get a spot on the server of a well-respected Elder Scrolls fansite, we get links from them for documentation of the primary Skyrim gameplay aspects, which they then don't need to duplicate as they are mostly unchanged, and it frees us from having to consider how to document Beyond Skyrim in the '''Depth over Breadth''' category because we know there's a dedicated wiki specifically for that purpose.

::::::For the end user, the result is essentially the same; if they're here looking for Beyond Skyrim, they'll start off at either [[General:Beyond Skyrim]] or a root page in Tes5Mod (yet to be created). From there, if we have all the content ourselves, they will either end up navigating through numerous subpages of that one Tes5Mod root page, or if we link to the BS wiki, they'll be navigating through the pages there. As long as they can find what they're looking for, I don't really think they'll care whether it says "UESPWiki" or "Beyond Skyrim Wiki" at the top. Beyond that, anyone who enters the BS wiki from other entry points, such as the official BS website, would see the close relationship with UESP and may then be inclined to visit us as well. If they were off on their own, that connection wouldn't be there.

::::::Being labelled as the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" rather than hidden away as the n'th mod covered by UESP also allows them some legitimacy, as I have always believed that there is less support for the creation of unofficial wikis on a topic if a specific community has a designated official one. I would say therefore that the UESP being the hosts of the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" shouldn't really be considered a detriment to us. The fact that Beyond Skyrim even considered the option of having UESP host their official wiki should speak volumes about how much the wider Elder Scrolls community values us as an Elder Scrolls site, and the fact that UESP/Dave agreed to host their official wiki was certainly met with a very positive reception when it was announced to the Beyond Skyrim team.

::::::So with that in mind, I would like to suggest that we act like the gracious hosts that I thought we were, and we show support for the Beyond Skyrim team and their official wiki. Beyond Skyrim needs to be documented, and they have somewhere for that to be done. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the wiki's URL is broken, and beyondskyrim.uesp.net is not intended. For all technical domain purposes, it is supposed to be wiki.beyondskyrim.org, but the certification isn't ready. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The initial talk page I linked to above has been deleted, so I suppose this discussion will have to happen UESP-side (as it should have from the start). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

: It might be worth mentioning that the uesp wiki will also have pages on us just like there are for Tamriel Rebuilt (our community was founded via Tamriel rebuilt members). The fact that the url for this new wiki contains uesp is temporary and because I haven't bought the certificates yet to use the wiki.beyondskyrim.org and devwiki.beyondskyrim.org url. {{uns|Meliodas|23:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)}}

:: So I've discussed the purpose of the public BS wiki with Meliodas at length and it doesn't appear to have very much overlap at all with our potential coverage. I'd therefore like to suggest that we limit our coverage to the released mods (currently only Bruma), which is exactly how we handle TR releases. The BS wiki is much larger in scope, and in hindsight I realise it was unfair to label it as competition since its focus is inherently different. Does this work for everyone? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

::: Sounds good to me! Seems I may have misinterpreted the purpose of the public BS wiki all along. Or perhaps its true purpose was yet to be decided, and with the hype of the Bruma release I was rushing to a conclusion that was not ready to be reached. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Agreed! It seems we have come to a solution that is good for all involved parties. --[[User:Meliodas|Meliodas]] ([[User talk:Meliodas|talk]]) 01:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach PTS ==

A little late on this update since I just got back from vacation...fortunately it is a smaller content DLC.

:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15pts Files] -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

: Awesome! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Namespace Proposal ==

If we are to be documenting the content of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]], starting with the release of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Bruma|Beyond Skyrim: Bruma]] which just came out, I think it would be beneficial to set up some pseudo-namespaces for that information, similar to what was done with [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]]. A slight difference in format here is that each province is being developed as a separate mod, unlike TR3 where everything is part of the same one, so ideally we will need pseudo-namespaces for each one of those. Right now though, all that is released is Bruma, which is part of the Cyrodiil province. So following the layout of [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] (thanks for the link, RH), I would like to propose a namespace for [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil]]:

<pre>
# NS_BASE ; NS_ID ; NS_PARENT ; NS_NAME ; NS_MAINPAGE ;
Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; BS5C ; Skyrim ; Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ;

NS_CATEGORY ; NS_TRAIL
Tes5Mod-Beyond Skyrim-Cyrodiil ; [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]
</pre>

Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:I'm not sure we need to create pseudo-namespaces for every partial release of Beyond Skyrim, particularly if we are not going to document it to the same extent as Tamriel Rebuilt due to it having its own wiki for that level of detail. I don't see any reason not to set this up at least for at least Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm leaning towards Silencer's thinking at the moment, but a lot depends on just how much documentation you're expecting, and how you intend to organize it. It makes a lot of sense to have everything under a single pseudo-namespace of Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim, so you can have parent-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Main</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Places</tt>) as well as sub-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>). But if there really isn't a need for parent-project pages, then that's just going to lead to a page structure that's all sub-project pages anyway (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Black Marsh/Places</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>), and having each different subspace defined might make more sense in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::The province mods are completely separate, just like the games in the Elder Scrolls series itself. Beyond Skyrim is an umbrella, not a project in its own right, and each mod will have its own partial releases (which is why all links from BS: Bruma already go to pages under BS: Cyrodiil). I think that format would indeed all be double-sub pages, because there would be no need for a BS/Places (if it existed, it would be ''very'' long). The level of detail we should be documenting here is pretty much the same as what we have for Tamriel Rebuilt; quests, places, NPCs, and all gameplay stuff. Conversely, the Beyond Skyrim wiki is the equivalent of lorespace, not a gamespace, and that's the sort of stuff we don't have for TR, because the depths of TR lore are on their own website at the [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/tr-handbook TR Handbook]. For a parallel, if we were to ever document the [http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/44922/? Province: Cyrodiil] mod for Morrowind, we would likely do that with a "Province: Cyrodiil" pseudospace, not a "Project Tamriel" pseudospace, because PC is a mod in its own right despite being under the PT banner. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Enodoc's suggestion sounds sensible to me: separate mods, separate pseudo-namespaces. "Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil/Places" is a bit of a mouthful but it works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that makes sense then. I just finished implementing it. Let me know if there are any issues. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spambot? ==

Not quite sure what to do with [[Special:Contributions/122.173.186.102|this IP]]. It added a corporate LinkedIn link but reverted it. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 05:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

:It's still spam, but perhaps a less severe penalty, maybe just a warning (something for future reference to know that IP has spammed before if the next move is done). Also remove the edits from public view as most spam and vandalism is these days. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Following the link provided, this company is very obviously going to be aware of social media and how it works, so my feeling is that it's a sneaky type of advertising. They know the change will be looked at, even if it's reverted. For that reason alone, I'd suggest revision deletion, and otherwise treat it like any other spammer. If it's only a one-off occurrence, there's not much point in blocking the IP, but we should keep our eyes open for similar behaviour in the near future, whether from that IP or another IP/account. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 16:09, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Account Creation Spam ==

Recently, bots or users have been making it through our captcha check and creating numerous new user accounts. Over the course of the day today, I've tried tweaking the captcha several times, starting with minor changes to the algorithm, then getting a bit more elaborate this last time. Each time, it has been followed within moments by what appear to be new random accounts. This suggests that either there's human involvement in the creations or that the bot is very broad ranging and won't be deterred short of a major change in approach. I could change to a different style of question captcha, or a different captcha completely, but if it's an actual human creating these accounts, that would be a waste of time.

For those who are wondering, they're all coming from completely different IP addresses, and most are using different naming styles, so neither blocking nor title-blocking will be terribly effective. As someone pointed out on the wiki, it's possible that some of these are non-editing accounts that are intended only to use the ESO Build Editor or just to save settings, but I'm not sure that would account for the number of accounts we're seeing, and some of the names seem really spammy in nature. It's hard to say with absolute certainty, though.

In the short term, there's not much to be done that I haven't already. In the long term, however, there are a few potential options, though most have some kind of problem associated with them:
# Put up with it, knowing a vandal could use these accounts to launch a bot attack from multiple accounts at once or in quick succession, potentially becoming a distributed denial-of-service attack (which has never happened, so not likely a big threat). In terms of not locking out legitimate users, this is probably the safest option.
# Require patroller/admin creation of all new accounts. This has several issues, the biggest being that either a communal e-mail box would have to be maintained for these applications, or some other simple mechanism of applying would have to be created. It's also possible that spammer(s) would just continue a variation of what they're doing now, and simply flood the system with requests.
# Create an extension to delete the accounts if they go completely unused and aren't logged into for X days. MediaWiki wasn't really designed with the idea of deleting users, though it is possible. The danger is that a bug in the program could delete legitimate data. Plus, it would require Dave or I to program it in the first place, since I don't see any extension that would work on a large-scale basis. (The only one I found is intended to completely wipe a single user from the database within certain limitations.)
# Switch login/account creation systems completely. The current recommended method is [http://openid.net/what-is-openid/ OpenID], which has a MediaWiki [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenID|extension]] available. That would limit a spammer's ability to create accounts based on having OpenID accounts available, but then it also requires that a real user have an OpenID account. Most do, mind you, whether they realize it or not, since it's linked with numerous common services like Google and Facebook. Of course, that's still potentially prone to abuse, depending on the spammer's ability to get around any given service's account-spam prevention. This would be entirely up to Dave to install, and may cost money...it wasn't entirely clear.

In the past, we've generally gone for option #1, but given the complaints on Discord about the wave of new user accounts, I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion again. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

:Given the relative lack of vandalism or spam by new user accounts I would be very wary of escalating a problem that doesn't ''appear'' to exist. Besides today I have not seen a huge amount (certainly not above "normal" numbers) of new accounts that would be worrying, but I know that a significant percentage of these accounts are by spam-bots that are simply getting blocked by the abuse filter, so do not ''appear'' to be what they are. As far as I can tell, we are also one of the cleanest open wikis on the net, as we've always had diligent recent changes monitors. The recent extreme vandalism is also very very rare, and we won't see the like for a long time once we are past it, certainly not enough to make me think there was something wrong with our account making process (well besides not having blocked the username "Administrator" from use). I thought the whole think was rather contained in nature, with our new Blockers having a hand in stemming the abuse. Option 2 for me is a non-starter, I think the amount of requests would far outweigh the capability of looking at and deciding the merits of them all, plus it removes the idea that we have an "open" wiki, because even if you still didn't need to log in to edit, you would need our "permission" to "join". Option 3 should be left alone too. The reason mediawiki chooses not to allow deletion is because every edit is tied to an account/IP, and deleting them means that the edit no longer has verifiability. While this is not the intention of such a program, the possibility should be locked in a vat of toxic waste and tossed into the Sun. There are problems associated with mass-deletion of vandalism from the history of pages (namely proof of the vandalism), and there will be even more problems with deletion of accounts where there is no proof of maliciousness. I just don't like Option 4, as it ties us to another site/group. It also appears that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo have abandoned it, with the only major user being PayPal. I just don't like the idea of requiring someone to have an account on another site in order to join here, though perhaps we should think of allowing people on Facebook and Google+ to associate their accounts here, and/or have the ''choice'' to use them to log in here.
:The last option still wants to improve our creation process, but it's hard to see how with any captcha as they are always vulnerable to bots. The latest method is two-factor authentication using a phone. This, as far as I can tell, requires human interaction. Required two-factor authentication either via email or phone, is one step that doesn't infringe on our openness, as the likelihood of a potential user not having one or the other is probably zero. If at all possible we could also incentivise it by reducing the time and/or amount of edits required before gaining full freedoms to edit. PS, no idea if that would affect account creation by logged in users, but obviously try to avoid it if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just to clarify, for option #3, I was referring to accounts that have no edit history whatsoever, including any deleted edits or abuse history. Also, even though it isn't required to edit, e-mail verification is already being done by the bots in many cases. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach (Update 15) Release ==

The usual file/data updates for HOTR DLC will be posted below:

:* uespLog Addon -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.20!]]
:* Achievements -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated!]
:* Champion Points -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php Updated!]
:* Skills and Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php Updated!] and double-checked
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Maps -- Nothing to update.
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15/ Uploaded!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done!]
:* Books -- Done! (upload in files and updated database)

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 13:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Is there a process for requesting the <samp>autopatrolled</samp> bit? I do a lot of typo fixing and Style Guide compliance edits, and I think the minor edit stream is annoying to patrollers. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:The process is documented at [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled Users]]. The short of it is: those with patroller permissions <s>get tired of patrolling your edits</s> notice that your edits are usually good, and nominate you to become autopatrolled. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Noted. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 21:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Mine arent fully good yet, at least not until I learn all the differences in templates/procedure. (So apologies to the patrollers in the meantime. I [[Special:Contributions/Timeoin|tend to post a lot]]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:10, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

== Site issues ==

Noticing some major issues this morning - Did we upgrade the wiki software recently or something? All of the sidebar stuff is gone, and I can no longer upload images - also the image upload page no longer lists the licenses in the licensing drop box. In addition, the UESP-specific options that usually appear below the edit window are also gone. Seems like all hidden site pages have been completely reset to defaults. The site would not let me post edits due to "loss of session data", and suggested logging out and back in, and when I did so, it would not let me log back in, claiming I had cookies disabled, which I do not. This occurs on both of my computers. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? - [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 13:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

:Okay, not sure if somebody did something, but a couple hours later, it seems to be working again. Not sure what was up with that... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 15:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::The site was down two Saturdays ago (the 19th August) in the morning, but completely down, not just not displaying properly. Not sure if its relevant but the coincidental timing is there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::: Daveh said on Discord it was due to memcached crashing every Saturday morning. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City PTS ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS. This update may take longer for me since I'm dealing with a newborn most hours of the day so if you're looking for something in particular just let me know.

:* uespLog Addon -- Seems to be working fine on PTS so far.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps - Done! I've added a link to Clockwork city from the base Mundus map but all other locations still need to be added.
:* Skills -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

:Hey Dave, the uploaded icons.zip appears to be only about 2/3 complete. Some folders are missing and it's ~70MB instead of the usual ~90MB. Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks...fixed! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== User Rename ==

Renamed Nephmir to [[User:Starkiller131|Starkiller131]] per their request. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Gift Brainstorming ==

Every year, usually around Christmas time, I like to give out an ES/UESP related gift to thank the site's contributors and fans. For example, last year we did the Tamriel map posters. In deciding what to do this and following years I'm looking for suggestions on what we could do. For now don't worry about the details too much and let your imaginations run wild. For some things there are potential issues like cost, shipping, and licensing issues but those can be dealt with once a gift project is actually chosen and started.

Some of my ideas to start with:

:* '''Coins''' -- I had some coins made for a summer camp project a few years ago and they are relatively easy/cheap with many different construction options.
:* '''Maps''' -- I love maps although since we did one last year there's no rush in doing another one. If we ever do another map I'd like to commission an artist to have a custom one drawn up for us.
:* '''UESP Merchandise''' -- Take just about anything from [http://vistaprint.ca VistaPrint] or similar sites with a UESP logo.
:* '''Books''' -- A more work intensive project but might be nice to see some of the better UESP pages/lore/art in a actual bound book.
:* '''3D Printing''' -- You can do a lot with 3D printing lately using models from games including character models or world spaces. Downside is that this is complex and relatively costly.
:* '''Replicas/Figurines''' -- The minimum order for a custom model is relatively low and within the realm of possibility. Licensing would be the main issue.
:* '''Posters''' -- You could make a poster of just about anything (ex: a nice game screenshot, lore articles, etc...).
:* '''Charity''' -- I like to give a little to charity each year when we can. Past recipients include World Vision, Charity: Water, and Child's Play. This would be in addition to the fan gift.

Looking forward to some of your ideas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

::The UESP Merchandise caught my eye, but its hard to see what would work. A mouse pad or t-shirt would not suit everyone, but perhaps a plate or glass or mug. I think my muffins would benefit in taste sitting on a plate with the logo. Another idea popped in my head when browsing vistaprint; a calendar. There are a couple of versions of the Tamriel calendar to pick from, and then pick 12 of our featured images to use for the months. You could keep it generic by leaving off the weekdays and just starting each on the first, or you could use next years dates to make it more usable. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Here is a collection of community comments I got on this:
:::*I like the idea of coins
:::*Ooh, what a really kind idea. I like the sound of coins too.
:::*I like coins
:::*Comission for a map would be really cool (I am still sad I didn't get one last time :frowning: )
:::*Illustrations and maps are neat
:::*Charity one is the best one
:::*I like the idea of posters, maps and figurines myself
:::*Coins or UESP merchandise. Seriously. I would LOVE a shirt with the UESP logo on it
:::*I also like the idea of coins
:::*I vote for shirts for the best idea now
:::*Maps are pretty gosh darn cool. You can put them on your wall and stuff. Coins are metal. It is harder to put them on walls. If this is a contest of wall-put-ability, I think maps win.
:::*I think artwork that feels like in-game product would be neat. Think a traveler's sketchbook with ink illustrations of creatures and whatnot
:::*Yeah kinda want one of those maps but maybe of all of Tamriel
:::*You know those life sized cardboard cut outs of LotR characters. Lets get those for Shadowscales. Scare the shit out of you whenever you enter your room and there is a shadow of an Argonian standing in the corner.
:::*3D Printing in-game models sounds awesome!
:::*I still like maps. Posters of iconic Vistas are cool too.
:::*As for charity. You go through TES able to kill the wildlife knowing that another will spawn... And another... And another... AND A-BLOODY-NOTHER!! Anyway, this isn't the case for the real world. Help give species a chance to up their spawn chances. As someone studying the animal sciences, I'd say the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust, as they're responsible for saving more species than any other organisation and training people in doing likewise.
:::*i think a picture of all the main races with a chunk of the province they're from behind them could make for a cool poster
:::*I would enjoy having an actual leather bound copy of an Elder Scrolls book. I may have to make one some day.
:::*like the idea of a figurine, Pelinal Whitestrake maybe?
:::*Coins and/or other in-universe memorabilia gets my vote
:::*I would adore some Septims.
:::*i wanted a big ass tamriel map for my wall last year, and i didnt got one. i even wanted to buy something like this but... no luck. maybe this year i can. soooo.. i will go with the map thing. Some septims would be nice too, tho.
:::--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I like the idea of UESP-branded wearables or coffee mugs. Wearables do have the issue of sizing and such that have to be accounted for, where mugs are fairly universal, so there's that to consider if you go for merchandise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::*I love and adore the idea of coins. The various coins which Bethesda and/or ZOS have produced to promote the various games are now collectors' items. I think we should avoid maps, because we Did That Last Year. The UESP Discord logo would look great on one side of a coin, with... I dunno, the head of Martin Septim on the back :P (Or Hermaeus-Mora, as the Guardian of Knowledge?) Can you also get writing along the edge? If so, UNOFFICIAL ELDER SCROLLS PAGES 2017 should go there :)
:::::*I would also support the idea of UESP merchandise, but I think this should be for us to purchase ourselves, e.g. through Spreadshirt. This would not make any money for the UESP, but would at least break even. In this way, we could get them in custom colours, with our UESP affiliation on. e.g. "UESP Wiki Admin" / "UESP Wiki Editor" / "UESP Forums Moderator" / "UESP Discord Admin" / "UESP Guildmaster" / "UESP Guild Officer" / "UESP Guild Member", etc. People with multiple affiliations could either position all of the text using Spreadshirt's layout tool, or pick their favourite one.
:::::*Mugs are also great, but would be super-expensive to post, even within Canada. Again, I think they should be for users to purchase themselves. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 08:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Minor Issue (Resolved) ==

As Alarra recently corrected [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Merdyndril&curid=167488&diff=1681627&oldid=1681624 here], there as a circumstance whereby they were attributed as being the author of [[ON:Message to Jena|Message to Jena]]. (See: [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Message_to_Jena&oldid=1681625 here]). The problem was that not only was it wrong, its wrong nowhere else. Except [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena right here]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
:An addendum, for clarity: there is little chance this was accidental. [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena?oldid=1894979 this was the date their page was created]. The Maulborn Cultist, [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Merdyndril?oldid=2264203 was not created until a year after]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 08:18, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::While it's likely that you're correct, this particular instance seems trivial. A note will, after all, be pretty much the same from one wiki to the next. It isn't like they copied an entire dungeon walkthrough wholesale, or used our images or what have you, at least not in this instance. For more significant instances, I believe Dave said he prefers to handle these issues himself, so I'd suggest e-mailing him or flagging him down on Discord. That policy may be out of date, though. If he refers you back to us, Atvelonis and I have spoken on occasion, so I'm happy to bring any concerns up with him if needed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::: Just to clarify Timeoin... you're complaining that Wikia copied the ''links'' of a UESP book page page on their own site's book page... back in 2015 (when you were still an admin over there and could have checked the page for plagiarism before you edited it).

::: Is this really of note for the AN board? Exactly what are you looking to achieve?

::: What I find odd is that when we were both admins on Wikia, you very rarely spoke up about the vast amounts of actual UESP plagiarism that was taking place there. I don't recall you ever reverting UESP content. It was left to the other admins to deal with. So why is it a concern now? You speak to Atvelonis on Discord, would it not make more sense to take it up with him?

::: I don't wish to start any drama, but you're clearly bitter about what happened to you over there. Which is why you're taking any opportunity get some sort of revenge. Be it the constant badmouthing, anonymous editing over there or threads like this. Its not healthy. Take it from someone who was in the same boat, but in a '''much''' worse position than you was - you need to move on. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::::Since I keeping getting pinged on Discord, here are my thoughts on the matter. Even if the UESP was the source of the mistake on Wikia, which is possible, I don't think that arguing over such a minuscule point is worth anyone's time. As others have stated above, it's just a link, and a pretty old one too. My inclination here would be to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]: it's entirely possible that same authorial assumption was made independently by users on both sites. Users add plagiarized UESP content to Wikia all the time, and I make an effort to catch this early on, especially when it comes to images. If you find something that is genuinely worth reporting, by all means inform me of it, but I don't think that being this pedantic helps anyone. —[[User:Atvelonis|Atvelonis]] ([[User talk:Atvelonis|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::::: I agree with Jimeeee. I apologise wholeheartedly. Also - I should not have pinged you, Atvelonis, and will not do so again. So ... yeah, please consider this closed? (Changed the header too - since that helps ''noone'') [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 17:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

== Move Request ==

Hello. Could an admin please move {{Deleted|Captain Velyna}} to [[Online:Captain Velya|Captain Velya]]? Velya is the proper in-game name. (Evidence: ESO Log Data). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 06:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:Could someone please also move {{deleted|ON:Domihaus (set)}} to [[ON:Domihaus|Domihaus]]? They are the same page. Thanks :) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 10:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

::I've merged Timeoin's second request because I want to make a general request that an admin start merging and deleting some pages that have been marked so. These actions can only be done by an admin, and there are a lot of duplicate pages sitting idle, as well as merge requests that haven't been done yet. Not doing these things is starting to cause a serious backlog of follow up actions, links to the wrong duplicate page appearing, as well as the confusion that is given by having empty pages being filled in when the information already exists elsewhere. There are dozens more pages I have identified as needing deleted, and have put off marking them so as to make it easier for an admin to do each page properly without knowing there are over 100 more pages marked for deletion (which there are). [[:Category:Marked for Deletion]], [[:Category:To Be Merged]]. PS A particular bugbear on merges for me is the Desolate Mine place and quest, marked for renaming by Legoless more than 2 years ago with no logical or given objection to it happening, yet no action taken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:11, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Bugbear slain. I started on the pages marked for deletion the other day, but that'll definitely take some time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Username Usurping ==

There was an account called "Zenith" made in 2009, with no contributions, and I was wondering whether I could usurp that username for a UESP account. {{unsigned|76.66.92.8|00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)}}
:Also worth noting is that this request was originally made on our Discord channel, where this user is already known as Zenith to the majority of the people on the server. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::I confirmed that the user hasn't logged in since 2009 and has no edit history, so I've gone ahead and renamed them. You may now create an account as Zenith. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City (Update 16) ==

Another ESO DLC is out today and so the usual round of updates:

:* uespLog -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.31]]! (1.31 has bug fix for guild store purchase bug)
:* Achievements --[http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated]! (new icons still need to be uploaded)
:* Skills -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills Updated]!
:* Skill Coeffients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php Done] (and checked)
:* Champion Points -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoCps Updated]!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16/ Uploaded]!
:* Books -- Done! (book text uploaded and updated in database)
:* Maps -- Done! (4 maps updated, still working on adding all locations)
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done]!
:* Items -- Done!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Translating Team for Italy ==

My friends and me would love to start translating UESP in italian.
We're good at english and we can write in HTML. We're 5 or 6 at the moment, but we can recruit more people with our skills.
I'm opening this discussion for everyone who's willing to take part in our project.
[[User:Undriel|Undriel]] ([[User talk:Undriel|talk]]) 00:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Count on me! [[User:Daffodill|Daffodill]] ([[User talk:Daffodill|talk]]) 01:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::I'd be happy to work on the italian translation [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 01:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::It sounds interesting [[User:Fenerevar|Fenerevar]] ([[User talk:Fenerevar|talk]]) 10:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm in. [[User:CurseMyName|CurseMyName]] ([[User talk:CurseMyName|talk]]) 11:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} There are no official steps to creating a translation project (the Portuguese one was a test) but unless there are any objections from admins I'll set it up in a few days once I've done most of the ESO updates from the latest DLC. Is there one person who is willing/able to take the lead/admin position for the project? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Thank you a lot. If the translation project will be approved I'll gladly take the admin position [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 10:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)LadyLigeia

{{od}} The Italian UESPWiki has been setup at [http://it.uesp.net/wiki/Pagina_principale it.uesp.net]...hopefully you can forgive the delay as I was focussed on some ESO work backlog last week. I've imported the MediaWiki and Template namespaces but nothing else at the moment. If you run into any issues on the new site let me know here or poke me at [mailto:dave@uesp.net dave@uesp.net]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

== Request for revocation of account rights. ==

After thinking over my ultimate place in the universe for a long, hard while, I've decided that this evening I'm ready to return to the UESPWiki and work on some of Jeancey's Morrowind Overhaul Project and give some love to my favorite game. I've also decided to do it without the pressure that I've always felt by being an active and regular member of staff, and I want to get back to just editing and enjoying myself.

After many long months of thinking about it on a self-imposed break, I've decided that I want to voluntarily relinquish all elevated user rights currently on my account, including my patroller rights, blocker rights, and any others that may exist that I've forgotten exist.

I am aware that, should I want them, I'll have to be renominated and be put up to a community vote again, but for the foreseeable future, I'm not at all interested in anything to do with them and I ask that an administrator handle this request at their first convenient moment, in accordance with my wishes.

Many thanks, -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 18:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Given that Damon has already qualified as a Patroller, I'd suggest that in conjunction with this request, we grant him autopatrolled status. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:: I've removed your Patroller and Blocker rights, Damon. I would support autopatrolled status if someone wants to make the [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled_Users#Nominations|nomination]]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I'll go ahead and do that, if Damon doesn't object. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

== 2018 Fan Gift ==

Christmas and the new year is quickly coming and I've been thinking about what to do for the UESP fan gift this year. I like the suggestion of a calendar made in the previous gift suggestion topic and am leaning strongly in that direction.

:* 2018 Year Calender
:* Can use Tamriel names for months and weekdays (or perhaps in addition to real names?)
:* Include both real and Tamriel holidays (make it obvious which is which?)
:* Artwork Could Be:
::* Fan Created
::* Screenshots
::* Composite (made up of Bethesda copyrighted images and others)
:: I'd rather stay away from using Bethesda original artwork to avoid the legal issues and would prefer the first 2 if we had the option.

Assuming people think this is a good idea I'd like to get started on choosing the 13 pieces of artwork for the calendar (12 months + title page) and the calendar details. Note that assuming we do a 10x17" wall calendar the artwork would have to be of reasonable size/quality.

Time flies so if we could decide on everything by the end of November that would permit printing by the start of December and hopefully shipping before Christmas. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

:What if the images were a selection of the UESP's Featured Images, where possible? We can throw together a quick vote of which ones look cooler for any particular month or season to match the feel of that time. Or move on to not-FI images if needed. Throw something [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|like this]] in for October and Halloween, for instance? Also, I would want the calendar to be completely Tamrielic, no Earthly times on it! -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 04:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, that's a good idea. I assume most (all?) of the Featured Images are screenshots correct? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Another quick thought...it may be a good idea to have several images per month composited together, especially if some of them are lower resolution. For example, we could group 3/4/5 Halloween related images for the month of October. So more options for each month would be a good thing. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've gone through the FI's and picked some that I think a more identifiable with the seasons/events. This is not a comprehensive list, a lot of the pure NPC/creature ones I left out as they are focused on that subject alone.

Winter 5: [[:File:SR-npc-Brelyna Maryon 03.jpg|Frost Atronach being summoned]], [[:File:SR-interior-Deepwood Redoubt 02.jpg|snow in a cave]], [[:File:DB-place-Edla's House.jpg|snow on a house]], [[:File:SR-creature-Ice Wraith.jpg|ice wraith with the moon over snowy mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-Alduin's Bane 02.jpg|dragons fighting on a snowy mountain]]

Spring 10: [[:File:ON-quest-The One That Got Away 02.jpg|sunrise over a lake]], [[:File:SR-place-Solitude.jpg|Solitude on a nice day]],
[[:File:ON-place-Alessia Bridge.jpg|sunny day (trees look autumny though)]], [[:File:ON-quest-Daughter of Seamount 02.jpg|sunny and cloudy day]], [[:File:SR-place-Druadach Mountains.jpg|the misty mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-The Cursed Tribe 02.jpg|a giant throwing a tantrum near some Orcs]], [[:File:SI-place-Mount Sheogorath Summit.jpg|colourful countryside]], [[:File:OB-quest-Alteration Training.jpg|bright day over a lake]], [[:File:MW-place-Lake Masobi.jpg|misty day over a lake]], [[:File:OB-quest-A Brush with Death 02.jpg|vivid trolls]]

Easter, only 1: [[:File:OB-quest-Bear Season.jpg|the anti-Easter message (bears eat sheep)]]

Summer 5: [[:File:MW-place-Ghostfence.jpg|the dust near Ghostfence]], [[:File:ON-place-Weeping Giant.jpg|stone giant taking a nap]], [[:File:ON-place-Upper Craglorn.jpg|a sunny river]], [[:File:OB-quest-Go Fish.jpg|a fish with big teeth on a sunny day]], [[:File:MW-place-Nchuleftingth.jpg|A sunny day over Nchuleftingth]]

Autumn 5: [[:File:ON-place-Windmill (Davon's Watch).jpg|windmill with moons between spokes]], [[:File:SR-quest-Dawnguard (quest).jpg|vampires with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:SR-quest-Robber's Gorge.jpg|bandits with the aurora borealis and a moon]], [[:File:SR-place-Shrine of Azura 02.jpg|Azura's statue with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:OB-quest-Peryite.jpg|Peryite's statue at night]]

Halloween 4: [[:File:SR-npc-Ancano 08.jpg|some eerie magical swirls]], [[:File:ON-quest-A Ghost from the Past 04.jpg|Sithis]], [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|werewolf with both moons]], [[:File:DB-quest-Clean Sweep.jpg|ash spawn crawling out of the ground in a tomb]]

A lot of the spring/summer ones could be one or the other. February could use a winter or a springy one. Halloween is the only event that has decent representation as the games lend themselves well to that "scary" theme. A Christmas or Easter one might need to be sourced from our other images. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

[[Image:2018_Calender_Month_Test_1.jpg|240px|right]]
:Great! Another thought of image materials are the various high-quality screenshots that people take of Skyrim and ESO with various mods/graphical enhancements. These would require the permission of the screenshot owner. I'll see if I can track down some good ones and get permission.
: I've made a very quick/initial drawing of a calendar page as I envisioned it. It is still very rough but feedback is wanted sooner rather than later. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. I could advertise it on social media and add "Submit high quality screenshots to us to use in the calendar" to possibly get some nice ones sent to us. If we were to say, offer anyone we used an image from a copy of the calendar, we could probably get a few. Would you be okay with that? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:32, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I thought the license for screenshots gave the UESP the copyright, "the copyright for this particular composition is held by UESP", while giving Bethesda copyright on the components. Like any edit, images have always been treated as belonging to the wiki once uploaded, for us to use as and where we think suitable. Plus, even for Skyrim, a lot of image takers are no longer active. AKB's proposal seems good, at most you'd be giving out 12 images to non-UESP people, and all of them could be evaluated for use on the wiki itself even if they fail to get used in the calendar. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::::re: AKB's suggestion of getting screenshots from fans, I was thinking the same thing so go ahead and see what people can send us. Regarding the SS permission I was referring to images found outside of the UESP. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 

::::Another more refined sample: [[Image:2018_Calendar_Sample_3.png|240px|right]]
:::::* Tried to give it a more lore/medieval look with parchment background and imperfect grid lines.
:::::* Added site logo,
:::::* Originally I was thinking of having text box with the some text from the UESP's relevant article. Unsure if that is too much or better to go with just a title/page link or perhaps nothing at all.
:::: Keep the feedback, ideas, and more pictures coming! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

 
::::: Dave, I like the parchment background with UESP logo, but with the white squares. I'd mock one up if I was on my Mac (which has Photoshop), but all I have on this PC is Paint. My reasoning is that I love the UESP "branding", however a lot of people need to write on their calendars and this is easier to do with a white background. Also, the imperfect grid lines will make a lot of us twitch! Thus I feel that parchment background with UESP logo but a white calendar grid section is the best compromise. I would like a title to each picture - including which game it is from - but I don't feel we need a huge box explaining what it is, let alone a wiki URL which is difficult to type. If the wiki's search function is working properly, people will be able to look up "Brelyna Maryon" and "Frost Atronach" easily enough :) [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 22:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: A couple more image suggestions:
::::::Spring: [[:File:SR-creature-Birds.jpg|Skyrim birds]], [[:File:RG-place-Shrine of Morwha.jpg|Shrine of Morwha (mother goddess)]]
::::::Autumn: [[:File:OB-quest-Information at a Price.jpg|Skingrad]], [[:File:OB-quest-Azani Blackheart 3.jpg|Ayleid ruins]]
::::::Winter: [[:File:ON-place-The Black Forge.jpg|Coldharbour]]
::::::—[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::A more refined draft with some of the suggestions implemented. [[Image:UESP Fan Gift 2018 - Month Test 4.jpg|240px|right]]
:::::::Barring any suggestions that require large changes I'd like to finalize the overall design and move to choosing the month images. There is also the question of exactly what holidays to include:
::::::::* All ES lore holidays
::::::::* Only Major ES lore holidays
::::::::* Real world American/Canadian holidays
::::::::* Other real world holidays
::::::: -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 
::::::::I'm against the inclusion of real-world holidays, since we don't knowfrom which country the winners will be. I like the style, however -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 20:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I agree with Sarthes to exclude real world holidays. I still like a small lore explanation on the calender like in the second mock-up, but maybe that will distact too much from the image. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

: The first draft of the calendar is available at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft1.pdf'''. Please review it and put any comments here.
:* There were a lot of great images submitted and it was hard to pick and choose just 13 of them. If you feel an image doesn't fit well let me know and we can easily find another one.
:* Spelling, grammar and lore corrections are welcome (I've already spotted a couple myself).
:* Better or more accurate descriptions for some of the images would be good. I just guessed at some of the locations. In particular:
:::* January - Where is this?
:::* February - Where is this?
:::* April - Dragon names?
:::* July - Where is this?
:::* August - Where is this?
:::* September - Better caption?
:::* October - Where is this?
:Right now I'm aiming to print 250 of them and mail them out like the maps last year. Now is a good time for people to start thinking about how they wish to distribute them. The more I can get mailed out in December the better! I also don't want as many left over at the end as the maps last year...I still have about 100 maps that can be sent out if people want them. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::January and July look like Falkreath hold to me, and part of the same general area, but can't pin it down. The dragons in April look like Alduin at the Throat of the World. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that mods are involved there, as there are no dragons that white (the frost dragon is white but with large dark coloured parts), and it's breathing fire which a frost dragon shouldn't do. I don't think that means it should be excluded though, but I can see a red sword in the lower right sky. September, it looks indoors, so it could be a frustrated mage trying to light a hearth. October is Heartwood Mill in the Rift, from Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

:::January is somewhere near [[Skyrim:Evergreen Grove|Evergreen Grove]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-51184|y=-61784}}. February is [[Online:Razak's Wheel|Razak's Wheel]], I think. April is [[Skyrim:Alduin|Alduin]] and [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax|Paarthurnax]] fighting at the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]]. That red dagger is a result of a spell I created. If it looks out-of-place, it can be photoshopped away. July is [[Skyrim:Lake Ilinalta|Lake Ilinalta]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-1942|y=-53920}}. August is likely to be [[Online:Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)|Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)]]. I highly suspect October to be [[Skyrim:Half-Moon Mill|Half-Moon Mill]].
:::Are the Summoning Days really specific to the Daggerfall City-State? I always thought they were the same for all of Nirn. Also, the Gauntlet at Sun's Dusk 2nd is also Boethiah's Summoning Day. Hogithum at First Seed 21st is Azura's. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! For the summoning days I believe they were only actually used in the Daggerfall game but like you say are probably Tamriel wide. We can either omit them entirely or I can add them as another type/color holiday to make it easier to fit in with the other holidays you mentioned (I might try that and see how it looks). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::With SarthesArai's help, I found the exact location January was taken from, and I can confirm that his description and coordinates are correct. July is also Ilinalta, though the coordinates given are a bit off. I used {{Map Link|x=-18000|y=-53000|zoom=16|ns=Skyrim}}. I also double-checked in the game and October is definitely [[Skyrim:Heartwood Mill|Heartwood Mill]], as Silencer suggested. Are there any other Skyrim locations that need double-checked? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've made all the suggested changes with the only outstanding location is February...I don't think it is Razak's Wheel as I went all over and couldn't find the view. I'm pretty sure it is a view to an unreachable location in a delve somewhere but I can't quite remember it. If I can verify the location in the next day or so I'll upload an updated draft of the calendar. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:Correction: It's Klathzgar, near the Skyshard, looking outside the playable area. Thanks to [[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer]] for actually finding it. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

::That's it! I asked on the ESO sub-reddit and someone answered pretty fast as well. I'll get an updated draft up tomorrow. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:::The latest calendar draft is up at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft3.pdf'''. Unless there are other changes/corrections to make I'll be submitting it for printing in a few days. I'll post another topic regarding the distribution of calendars (it will be the same as the map poster last year). As a last minute update I added the birthsigns to each month (they can be easily removed if people think they don't fit well). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I like the birthsigns, but I think they might fit better with the month name, instead of on one of the calendar squares (and then they would be in the same spot for each month). --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 17:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::Another way would be to have the birthsign image as a background, though only as a faint outline, or even just the constellation. I don't think that would take too much away from the desired white background boxes for writing in. Faldar's Tooth doesn't really help place Heartwood Mill, "on the shore of Lake Honrich" or "near Riften" might be better. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Yah, I didn't like the location of the birthsigns either so I've tried moving them up to the title line which looks a lot better I think. See '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft4.pdf''' for the latest. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} That looks better than I thought it could be up there. It has my vote as ready to go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:I agree, this looks really nice! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

::Barring any last second fixes I'd like to send the calendar to the printers tomorrow and get started on the various distribution methods. Ideally I'd like to start shipping at least some of them before Christmas. I'll start a new AN topic tomorrow regarding that. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Final calendar release is at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf''' (or higher resolution at http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final.pdf if anyone would like to print it themselves). Note that I had to add 2 new images/pages at the end as the printer was only able to print 24 or 28 page sizes. Hopefully there are no obvious errors for those as the print job has already been started. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I was just wondering: where were those final two images taken? Or, if you don't know, do you have the links for them on the wiki? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:::::The first one appears to have been taken from [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Overlook|Dragon Bridge Overlook]] - checked in-game and you can get a very similar view from there - or perhaps somewhere nearby like [[Skyrim:Cliffside Retreat|Cliffside Retreat]]. The second is in [[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern|Moss Mother Cavern]]. (I play this game way too much.) ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::I was thinking the second one looked like Moss Mother Cavern, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't find that exact image on the wiki, so I thought maybe I was wrong. Thanks, Alarra! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Got mine in the mail yesterday and it looks fantastic in person! Just wanted to leave a quick thanks, Dave! Good work on the calendars this year! :) -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 05:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

== Paarthurnax ==

The Blades demand for the removal of [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax (dragon)]] has seen the page blanked 6 times since last December, with only one constructive edit in that time. I think it needs some additional protection for a while. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Agreed. Delphine is such a tryhard. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::I've semi-protected it for a year, and we'll see how it fares after that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::Good god I can't believe people are still butthurt over this. I remember arguing with people on the official lore board about it back when Skyrim came out. Can you at least block anonymous edits to the page? --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 22:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::::That was just a joke, there's no way to guess what reason the page was blanked for as none was given. Semi-protection, which the page now has, does exactly that, as well as blocking brand new accounts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::Some people were seriously apoplectic about the Blades/Paarthurnax thing, certainly enough to vandalize a wiki. I just figured they'd found something else to be mad about by now. --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 23:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Inappropriate Username ==

Wanted to bring to the attention of Admins an inappropriate username creation. [[Special:Log/newusers]] link for easier viewing. User name begins with "Tom". [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 05:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

:Done, thanks. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, didnt wan't to say their name. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]])

== Legends Card Data and Popup ==

People asked for this a while ago and I'm finally getting to working on it. This is just the first step of many so if you have suggestions/ideas on the existing implementation or where it goes from here don't hesitate to say something.

:* List of cards can be seen at [[Special:LegendsCardData]]. Hover over the card name for the popup and click the name for card details.
:* Linking to a specific card can be done using the custom <code><nowiki><legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard></nowiki></code> tag which looks like: <legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard>.
:* Card data has been initially populated with the saved MetaTemplate data on each card page and is not yet complete.
:* Do we need a "missing card" image or is it fine to just display nothing?
:* Are the card popup images a good size? I've resized them from the wiki images to load faster.
:* An add/edit card data feature is planned in order to let editors manage updating existing card data and adding new ones.
:* Similarly, a card search feature is planned.
:* A deck builder is possible but is a much larger piece of work to be considered in the farther future as time permits.

If you notice anything broken or not working as you think it should let me know as well...I haven't done much cross browser/platform testing yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:59, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:Oooh, this looks really nice Daveh! The size of the pop-up images are quite good, they aren't much different in-game. I am not sure if a "missing card" image is necessary. I think that the benefits are that it will make us sure the pop-up is not broken and it might give us some incentive to find the missing images faster. All in all, it looks great! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:: A bunch more changes today:
:::* All card data should be up to date so far as I know it.
:::* Added the edit and create forms. Currently wiki admins have access to this but I can give specific editors access if there's any active Legends users. There's the "Create Card" in the upper right of the main card table and an "Edit Card" in the upper right of each card details page.
:::* Added a simple <legendscard card='unknown'>Unknown Card</legendscard>.
:: A reminder that I haven't played very much Legends myself so if there are obvious omissions in anything let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I would like to get access to the Create/Edit option at the [[Special:LegendsCardData]] page. I am one of the most active Legends contributors and I am also the one adding the new cards from the upcoming expansion. So it would be easiest if I can add the card to both places at once. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

::::You should now have the ability to edit and create cards. If this doesn't work for you please let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::It seems like the tag isn't properly processing template parameters. <code><nowiki>{{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code>, for example, produces: {{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>.

:::::Ilaro also pointed out that the link should go to the card's wiki page rather than Special:LegendsCardData. I'm not sure if we'd have a need to link to the card data for any reason, so the link can probably just be changed directly, but you could perhaps have it as an option in case there is some such need in the future, if it's not too difficult. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::Both of these should now be fixed. Use the <code>usedatalink="1"</code> parameter if you would like to link to the card data page, otherwise it links to the card article. Note that if there are other custom uesp tags that need template parameter parsing let me know (like <nowiki><esoitemlink></nowiki>). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I found another problem: cards like {{Legends PU|Archer's Gambit}} or {{Legends PU|Crusader's Assault}} are showing the right pop-up, but they are linked to the [[Legends:Archer|Archer]]/[[Legends:Crusader|Crusader]] page instead of their card page. This also causes {{Legends PU|Alik'r Survivalist}} to link to the not existing "Alik" page instead of [[Legends:Alik'r Survivalist]].
:::::::Another problem are the Werewolf cards. Both {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Nord)}} and {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Werewolf)}} have a unknown card pop-up. These are, however, two separate 'entities' and should have their respective card image pop-up. On the other hand, {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress}} shows the werewolf card, which should not be the case, because it is the link to the disambiguation page. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed both issues. For Aela it was due to me incorrectly importing just the one base card so I renamed that one and created the other one. Both should now have correct popups. The disambiguation popup is fixed however your local browser cache will likely still display the issue until you clear the cache or the image expires. Note that to fix both issues you just have to re-save any page that uses those cards. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The fixes seem to work! However, I should have been more clear about the werewolves. {{Card|Aela's Huntmate}}, {{Card|Circle Initiate}}, {{Card|Companion Harbinger}}, {{Card|Grim Shield-Brother}} and {{Card|Whiterun Protector (Werewolf)|Whiterun Protector}} suffer from the same problem as Aela. (that should be all of them) --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:57, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
:These should now be all fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
::Just when you thought you were done.... Cards with disambiguations in the name face a special challenge, in that the disambiguation needs to be both present and absent. Look, for example, at <legendscard card="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>. As it stands now, it links to [[Legends:Skeleton]] even though it gets its data from [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I'm not sure how that magic works, but it should really link to [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I can see three potential fixes for this:
::#Change the magic renaming to link to the same page it's getting the data from.
::#Change all the card names to use the exact same as the page names. If you go that route, though, you'd need to give us the ability to edit the name used in <code>card="''name''"</code>, as well as the wiki link itself, in [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?edit=Skeleton the edit page] so we can update page names if they move around and fix any that don't currently follow this pattern.
::#Provide an actual <code>link</code> parameter. This is potentially more flexible, but personally, I think this would end up over-complicating a lot of things, both on your end and on the wiki end, so one of the first two is probably the better choice.
::– [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

:::Today I added all new obtainable cards to the Card Database. However, I ran into two problems. Cards with an apostrophe in the name (for example: [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Mecinar%27s+Will]] ) do not link properly to the right image file. Secondly, there are two new creature types in the expansion, but I could only choose types from a dropdown list and not add a new one. You are probably busy, but I like to point out that the problem from RH (one post above this) is also still present. See whenever you have time/feel like to fix it. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added basic card filters to the card table display. Let me know if you need/want more filters and what specifically. Added the 2 new creature types...if any list is missing something just let me know. Explicitly listing what items makes it much easier for me since I don't play Legends much and am not to familiar with it. Fixed the issue with single quotes in item names...let me know if you run into similar issues (just was due to various text escaping errors). Haven't fixed RobinHood's issue but will look at it and figure out the best course of action shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 22:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Regarding the card links for disambiguation pages I've decided to go with a 4th option at least for now. Part of the issue is that the card link code doesn't access the legends card database and I'd prefer to keep it that way. That means the first option won't work. The second option would work but it depends whether editors want to go that route (I can add name changing to the card edit code as needed). The third option would work fine but it really just pushes the problem onto the editor or makes the card link template that much more complicated.

So option I've implemented for now is to hardcode a list of all cards that have disambiguation pages and check in that list whenever a card link is parsed. So far I just have 4 cards in that list:
:* Bandit Ambush => card
:* Chaurus => creature
:* Skeleton => card
:* Swims-at-Night => card
If there are more cards needed in this list, either now or in future sets, just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:Great! Some small notes: Chaurus (creature) has been changed some time ago to Chaurus (card) for consistency and the original is now a redirect. I also have some issue with <code><nowiki>{{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code> that it is still linking to the disambig page (see {{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>), while <code><nowiki><legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard></nowiki></code> is not (see <legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>). At last, is there any way to remove cards from LegendsCardData? Because this one is now split up into two cards [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Aela%27s+Huntmate]] (the Nord and the Werewolf version). Thanks in advance for the help! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::Fixed the Chaurus card type for the disambiguation page, the MetaTemplate issue with disambiguation links and I've manually deleted the linked card. For now cards can only be deleted or renamed manually...no reason other than to limit the amount of data loss that could happen (can't just revert edits like with wiki pages). For now just let me know of any deletes/renames required and these features can be added in time if desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Image Undeletion ==

The image File:SkyrimEchmer.jpg was deleted on the 4th November, however, the [[General:Uutak Mythos|Uutak Mythos]] is and has been linking it since 2nd September. The log doesn't say why it was deleted, so can someone look, and if possible, restore the image if it isn't too late, or if the reason it was deleted would see it deleted again (eg duplication), remove the links here and on that page. My apologies if it was me who marked it for deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:You listed it for speedy deletion with the reason "duplicate file, other one is in the naming style of similar images" and AKB deleted it. I thought there was a way to view deleted images, but if there is, I can't find it, so I've restored the image for the time being. If you can find what it's a duplicate of, re-link it to the correct place and we can re-delete this one. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks. The duplicate image was autolinked from the file page, and has now been replaced on the Uutak Mythos page. I've removed the link above so it's clear to redelete. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Done. And thanks for looking into that. I was just on my way out to dinner, so I didn't have a lot of time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

== UESP Fan Gift (2018 Calendar) ==

The [http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf calendar] has been finished and sent off for printing so we can get started on figuring out who the lucky people are that get one. I've ordered 250 calendars so if we distribute them roughly the same as the map last year I shouldn't have any left over at the end. Like last year distribution will be grouped into a few categories:

:* Anyone who submitted an image used in the calendar (12 people).
:* All admins/mods/guild leaders of UESP (if you aren't sure if this includes you just [mailto:dave@uesp.net ask me]).
:* Random draw for everyone is open at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] and a number of winners will be drawn on Dec 15th (so I can start mailing them before Christmas).
:* Any wiki editor in the 2017 year can submit their name at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] for a different random draw on Dec 15th for just wiki editors.
:* Any other contest that might be run by our forums, social media sites, or ESO guilds. If you running a content let me know and we can figure out how many calendars we can reserve for you.
:* Special people in the Elder Scrolls universe (Bethesda, Zenimax Online, fan sites, etc...). [mailto:dave@uesp.net Let me know] if you have a suggestion here!

Calendar winners can use the [https://goo.gl/forms/xZg2kcQa0pgh6nVb2 Mailing Address Collection Form (2018 Calendar)] to submit their address so I can mail the calendar to them.

I also still have about 100 maps from last year I can include for people as desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
::If you can swing it, I would love to get another copy of the map - mine got damaged when I moved between states. --[[User:SCarverOrne|SCarverOrne]] ([[User talk:SCarverOrne|talk]]) 03:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

:At least the Morning Star, Sun's Dawn, First Seed, and Rain's Hand images were all submitted by me, but I do not need 4 calendars... xD -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
::As an idea for the last point, maybe the creators of the most popular mods/addons? Like Arthmoor or the creator of FTC? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I received the calendars last Friday and they look great! I'm mailing out the first batch of 22 calendars today/tomorrow to everyone who has filled out the mailing address form so far. Hopefully at least some of you will get them by Christmas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Being just next door in Ottawa, I got mine today and it looks fantastic! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've performed the random draw just now with the 757 unique e-mails submitted from the form. 36 calendars went to wiki users and 25 went to random users. Everyone has been notified by e-mail to submit their mailing address on the collection form. After all calendars have been claimed from contests sometime in January I'll do another random draw to get rid of any left over calendars. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

:Will send out another 70 or so calendars this afternoon and that will likely be the last batch shipped out before the New Year. An update on what charities we've supported this year (it's hard to choose as there's so many good organizations to give to). I've donated $750 to [https://www.charitywater.org Charity Water] and through [http://childsplaycharity.org/ Child's Play] I've purchased $300 worth of toys for The Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. Note that if anyone is interested in running charitable events through Child's Play or a similar organization anytime just let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

== Skyrim Creation Club Purchases ==
Since Creation Club mods are "official" content (or close enough) the UESP's offer to purchase games for admins and active editors applies to them was well. At a minimum we should make sure that at least one admin/editor has a copy of each CC mod to make sure we can add/test content for the wiki. So far only Legoless has asked and received money for CC purchases and I don't know which mods he has purchased.

If you are an admin or ''active'' editor and would like to be reiumbursed for CC purchases just [mailto:dave@uesp.net let me know]. Usually I just send money via Paypal unless there is a way to gift CC credits somehow. People how have CC mods should also post here so we know which content we have and what we might not. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:I'd be interested. I've dabbled with them but only taken the ones that were free on offer. If I decide to take up your offer I'll email you, as anyone should if they wish to keep anonymous. Also, should I do it, I will purchase all currently available ones that I haven't got. The numbers certainly don't appear to be high as there has been little activity on documenting them, so it would be good to know what creations everyone purchases. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I'm also interested. I currently have Survival Mode, Arcane Accessories, Dwarven Armored Mudcrab, and Stendarr's Hammer (which I purchased with initial credits). Creation Club is easy content to document, so I'll certainly help out with those pages. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::: I have access to all CC mods to date and can verify as needed. Lots of information to add too, but it seems Fullerton may beat me to it! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I now own all current CC content. I'm not playing Skyrim at the moment but I can now pop in and check/verify stuff if anyone needs. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ebony blade victims ==

I recently found out that the randomly encountered Stray dogs are valid targets for the Ebony blade which also uniquely respawn. I added the information to the [[Skyrim:Ebony_Blade_Victims|Ebony blade victims]] page but my edit was [[Skyrim_talk:Ebony_Blade_Victims#Respawning_blade_targets|revoked in good faith by another editor]] for not meeting the criteria. As far as I can tell there was no mention of such a unlimited (they respawn) target for the quest that also means no other named NPCs need to be disabled. What is the policy for adding the information to that page and how, if possible, can I rephrase or change the information so that it would meet the criteria on that page? With best regards, --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 20:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:The best place to ask this is on the talk page of the article. Complaining to the admins because your edits were reverted and then subsequently explained is not how you go about understanding an article and its purpose. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::SkyHiRider, you might be better-advised to take it to the article's [[Skyrim talk:Ebony Blade Victims|talk page]], which more people will be watching and so will be a better place to expect a reply. The reason that the administrator noticeboard isn't the right place for this is because the AN's purpose is for Administrator-only actions, but the mistake was made due to being unaware so it's understandable and completely fine as long as the mistake isn't repeated. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 10:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

::: Understood, will keep it to the article talk page. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 23:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Mobile ads issue ==

A couple times the past week, I've hit some kind of ad that redirects me to a giveaway/scam site. Example: [https://imgur.com/kvsLmWm]. Both the times it happened, I was on Safari for iOS, refreshing the Recent Changes page. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 15:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

: A user mentions having a similar problem on [http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40436 this forum post] and manages to provide a link to the offending webpage. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== De-Rank Request: Fullerton ==

In light of Fullerton's recent actions on both our Discord server and another one, the Discord staff are suggesting a removal of his Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki. There is precedent on both the wiki and forum for dealing with a user's actions from a different part of the UESP or from offsite. As site staff in the form of patroller and blocker, he is representing the wiki elsewhere, and his recent behavior shows a lack of the type of responsibility needed to have these roles here.
* He was previously staff on Discord due to us initially adding everyone who has roles elsewhere as UESP staff. He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users.
* He has behaved in a somewhat inappropriate matter off and on, which has been addressed in a less-formal manner of staff talking to him or posting a reminder, such as racist comments, language such as the use of "retarded"/"mong", and other behavior which we do not consider okay there even as a joke. Earlier this week, on Tuesday, he was kicked from the server for spamming a bot command that was previously disabled (accidentally reenabled when the bot creator was working on it), being told to stop, and then moving the spam to our main channel (#general) instead, right around the time a prominent member of the ESO community joined.
* Yesterday, on another server (one with many banned members who have something of an anti-UESP sentiment), he [https://imgur.com/tK0668E doxxed Legoless (name hidden)] by changing his username there to his actual real name, and did it in a racist manner, as Legoless is Irish. At this point, we gave him a role on our server that would remove access to all channels to him except the one called "#dungeon", which is used as a holding area while staff discuss what action to take. He claimed to not know it was Legoless's real name, but we found evidence to the contrary; two instances of him using Lego's first or last name on October 22 and November 13.
* This morning, he left our server and rejoined to remove that role (essentially evading a soft ban), [https://imgur.com/feFK62z swearing at the moderation], and posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created).
Fullerton's editing on the wiki has been good, but we feel that with behavior like this it is not appropriate that he hold any type of staff role on the UESP. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

:Why are the Discord staff suggesting a removal of my patroller and blocker roles on-wiki? I do recall that recently there was an attempt to demarcate between Discord and on-wiki staves, and so it puzzles me to see that they're being treated as a single entity.
:If you will recall, these were demarcated because it placed people with insufficient experience in online chatrooms as moderators to have wikistaff become Discord staff, and I have been acting under the impression that one does not necessarily equal the other. I fully agree with my previous removal from Discord staff because quite frankly, my position as wiki staff should not in any way make me a staff member on the UESP Discord server. These distinctions are because Discord and the wiki are extremely different platforms. As a result, I did not feel that I had to act in my role as a wiki patroller when idly chatting in the UESP discord server and various other Discord servers, as the case may be. Now, the reason I failed to represent a wiki patroller in a Discord staff capacity is 'because' of this discrepancy, as I was thrust into a position of which I held no understanding. However, the patroller role on-wiki is something I signed onto fully aware of, and so there is far less possibility that I will misunderstand and forgo the duties which the role has assigned to me on here. As I said, they are different platforms and I signed on to be a Wiki patroller and fulfill the task, while I just so happened to be thrust into a position on the Discord pertaining to representing the wiki.
:Especially prominent in the demarcation between UESP and the Discord Server belonging to it is the Discord Server's recent promotion of "Tea Party Moderators", who were chosen simply for being fit for the task.
:In the past (October 31st), I attempted to have the patroller role removed from my Discord account by leaving the server. However, it was simply re-added to my account because I expressed an ambivalence towards the role. I did not feel I was bound to remain in the role, and came only to see it as a different-colored nametag on the Discord server - hence I requested the colors when I rejoined the server from my (acknowledged to be unjust) kick.
:Additionally, there's no reason for Discord conflicts to suddenly occur on-wiki-this directly defies the reason given for the deletion [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans]], which was that there is no need for the Discord to be that much on the wiki.
:I'd like to conclude by saying that this is an extension of the inconsistency in moderation styles on the UESP discord that has now spilled over onto the wiki, and that I doubt that allowing the confusion to continue will clear up any of the discrepancies on the UESP Discord server.
:—[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 04:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
::(This response is just from me and not the Discord staff as a whole.) Again, part of the reason we are suggesting it here is that as patroller and blocker you are still site staff - not moderating ''that'' part of it doesn't change the roles you do have - and your actions therefore still represent the UESP. The demarcation of the site has nothing to do with it (in fact we've been treating the UESP ''less'' as separate communities and more of a single community ever since the Discord was founded, even if not everyone manages every aspect of it.)
::(As an aside, the reason the Discord Bans page on the wiki was deleted was because we felt that the list had become incentive for people to try to behave badly in order to get banned and get their name on it, not because we felt the Discord and wiki should be kept separate. The reason you had the Blocker/Patroller roles on the Discord was to help you fulfill your duties on the wiki: to have access to the Patrolling channel to discuss edits a patroller isn't certain about, and for people to be able to notify you to block a vandal when needed (which is, in a way, still acting as site staff). You [https://imgur.com/ZxRTafv were aware] that that was the purpose of the role, and in fact after you left in October and it missed being re-added, you yourself eventually [https://imgur.com/E3Cgmnn pointed out] that you were missing it so that it could be added and you could put it to that use.)
::But anyway, back to the topic at hand and the main part of my response: The other part of why we're suggesting it is because in the past we have taken action on parts of the UESP for behavior on a different part (and even offsite) if the behavior was severe enough, which I personally would vote is the case here: sharing another user's personal information without their consent is very serious, even without the rest of it. And regardless whether viewing you as a staff member or not, the examples I listed in the first post show poor judgement at best and some of them malicious behavior at worst (e.g. re-joining the server to shake off the dungeon role and swearing at the mods and posting the dungeon content), which is enough to raise concern about whether you are responsible enough for these roles. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 08:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Instead of trying to dance around this, I'm just gonna say this. What you did could have put Legoless's personal safety at risk. Which raises the question, do you understand what doxing is, and why it is dangerous? Please answer if you understand what you did. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 09:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::From my persepctive, doxxing a member of staff is not the way anyone should behave, let alone another member of staff. Furthermore, your actions on Discord of evading the soft ban by leaving and rejoining the server to leave the #dungeon channel, and then posting the content of the dungeon in a public channel, shows that you do not respect our moderation processes. Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::There are so many side issues that are brought up by this discussion, it's hard to know where to start. On the one hand, I'm concerned about the cross-over of platforms. There's a certain level of behaviour that I would expect from staff, regardless of which UESP platform they're on, and to an extent, even on other sites. But on the other hand, there are also times when people feel the need to let loose. I've certainly said and done things on channels/servers/sites where I wasn't staff that I wouldn't do here, where I am.

:::::Doxxing someone (anyone! staff or not) is a serious charge, and one that might well warrant cross-platform discipline. That said, it really depends on how much of an issue it actually is for Legoless. I'd like to hear from him on that one. I'd also suggest that people consider the fact that some of us are more open about our real names, while others aren't, and it's very easy to forget who's who. A great many people know my real name, for instance, and it's not too terribly difficult to find out if you don't yet. A few clicks should bring you right to it. :) So, was Fullerton acting maliciously and deliberately sharing Legoless' real name? If so, then this is an easy decision, and I'd say yes, he should have rights removed here, since that type of behaviour is unacceptable for any staff member in any and every part of UESP. That becomes a bit more grey, however, if he was acting more out of negligence and just not thinking of the fact that only certain people know Legoless' real name, or even out of ignorance, not realizing that most people don't know it. As a gay man, I completely understand the latter. I've accidentally been outed to people in the past, and I have once accidentally outed someone else in complete ignorance, thinking that everyone knew. It sucks, but sometimes these things happen.

:::::As for the racism issue, that one's a bit more confusing. After all, Legoless' real name includes what is sometimes considered a racist (or at least ethnist) component to it, but is also just a normal name too, so unless there was something more there, I'm not sure that's necessarily racist on its own. Context, however, could make a big difference here, though I appreciate that it may be difficult to share that without inherently outing Legoless all over again!

:::::I think this brings up some larger issues, though, in that there has been a recent tendency to take things cross-platform, and I'm not sure it's always warranted. It strikes me that, to some extent, there have been vendettas going on from certain staff members against other users and an excessive adherence to rules. The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right. That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning. As popular as our Discord channel is, I think to an extent it has also become dysfunctional, and I have a tremendous concern that this cross-platform disciplinary action just continues that trend. TBH, when baratron recently suggested on my talk page that I return to the Discord channel, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!", though I worded it a bit more diplomatically there. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I just did some research, and in a quick Google, I was able to find pages that linked Legoless to his real name. In my own inbox, I was able to find '''Legoless himself''' using the variant of his name that is presented as being racist. So, I think the concerns on that front are a lot less than they might seem.

::::::That said, I think evading a soft ban was inappropriate behaviour, but I can also see where locking someone away in a dungeon (quite literally in this case) gives them no chance to defend themselves publicly, and leaves them unaware of any public or admin-only discussion concerning them, where they should have the opportunity to raise a defence. Yes, they can do so afterwards, but from my experience, by that point, opinions have already largely been formed by the administrators who took an interest. I don't think a dungeon room is at all an appropriate way to handle discipline. All the worse that it's actually called that without seeing the stigma it creates. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @RobinHood: You may have missed a nuance of what Fullerton did. Let's say Legoless's name is Patrick Murphy (it isn't). Fullerton didn't just change Legoless's public name on the other server to "Paddy Murphy" (where "Paddy" is both a common Irish first name and also a derogatory term used for Irish people) - he changed it to "Paddy O'Murphy" - adding an extra O' as if Legoless's surname ''isn't Irish enough''.

::::::: I am not sure what you mean by "''The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right.''" I'm only aware of TJ's Discord server, which has plenty of current members. It's a place for people to "shitpost" (am I allowed to say that on the wiki?), which is posting lots of meme images and talking all in emojis - the sort of behaviour that we frown upon on the main UESP Discord server. This isn't necessarily '''bad''' behaviour, it just does not convey the professional image that we want on the UESP Discord, in case a Bethesda or Zenimax employee shows up. (Which they do - we have two currently that we know of.)

::::::: We're also uncertain about "''That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning''". We're not sure of any current or ex-Patrollers who use TJ's server other than Fullerton and Legoless. Again, there is nothing sinister in them going to that site. Different Discord servers have different rules, and it doesn't mean that wiki staff are involved in some sort of plot against UESP because they happen to hang out there. Some people are on literally 50+ Discord servers at a time - I don't know how they keep up, I'm on 4 of which 2 are busy and multi-channeled, and the other 2 get on average of one message a day. But a lot of younger people apparently have the time and energy for it, *shrug*.

::::::: I take your point about the #dungeon channel, but it '''is intended''' for people to defend themselves. It's where they get to explain to the staff why they did whatever they did, and apologise if necessary. No one other than staff sees who is in there - other members do not even see the channel, and as far as they know, the user is simply offline. I don't agree that opinions have ''necessarily'' already been formed by the administrators who took an interest - sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes, the whole purpose of putting a person into that channel is to find out the details of an incident, rather than to punish people. The channel history is always wiped after use. Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business. I agree that #dungeon is a bad name.

::::::: I understand that Fullerton was frustrated because he was "left in the dungeon for 6 hours", but this was an unfortunate side-effect of timezones. I went to bed at 6 am on Saturday morning due to staying up, dealing with this situation. For many people in the US, it was already 1 am and not everyone has as chaotic a sleep schedule as I do. I'm not sure how anything could have been dealt with any quicker. Also, Fullerton himself told us that he would be away from his computer for the day, which also gave an impression that it was not urgent enough for '''everyone''' to have to stay up way past their bedtimes. I do regret that this was apparently not the case. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I did catch the O'. To me, that was not tremendously relevant, but maybe that's an Aspie thing. I just don't attach the same level of importance to these sorts of things as some do. Since Legoless himself has said it was ancillary to the doxxing itself, I see it as a moot point in any event.

:::::::: My understanding of the purpose of TJ's channel may have been off, as I've never been there and have only heard bits and pieces about it. As far as the other server, I won't say too much for privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that I'm not the only person who found our Discord server sufficiently problematic as to either leave it or at least not visit often. A few of us happen to have found each other in what is otherwise an unrelated server, and on rare occasions, we have discussed what we see as some of the problems. "Offshoot" was not the best term, but I couldn't find another one readily that encompassed both TJ's server (which I understand has at least a few users who were banned from UESP's Discord) as well as the other one.

:::::::: As for the dungeon, as you've acknowledged, the name itself is problematic and adds bias to any discussion, as it automatically implies guilt. I think a better method would be to take such discussions to an ad-hoc private channels and ask the user to refrain from using the channels (which leaves you a certain leeway to make it an even softer ban, allowing use of certain channels if appropriate), or just take it to a group PM and kick/ban them from the Discord server, if necessary. Perhaps these are a bit more of a nuisance, but they're not as inherently biased. At the very least, a better name could be found. I get that it was meant as humorous, but I think it probably doesn't seem quite as funny to someone who finds themselves there.

:::::::: I wasn't really aware of the timing issue of Fullerton being left in the room for 6 hours, but as you say, even if it was frustrating, that's completely understandable, given that our users are from around the world. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: This conversation's moving a bit quickly for me to get a response in, and most of my points have been covered by various users, but I'll just add that Fullerton actually [https://imgur.com/KECYIgR admitted] that his intention with that particular name change was to be racist.
::::::::: I agree that perhaps a better name can be found; it was indeed chosen to be humorous, but I understand your point about the implications the name might have. It certainly isn't our intent to imply that we've already formed opinions: as bara said, it's a place for the mods and the user to come to an understanding; we've given users another chance or found alternate solutions based on our discussions with them there, and it's not always used in cases of disciplinary action either. Even yesterday it was used voluntarily as a private place for a user who wanted to talk to the moderators. While I can understand the frustration of remaining there for hours, the reason we created it is to have time to let all moderators give input, discuss things thoroughly, and not make snap judgements. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::: That screen-cap certainly provides a context I didn't have before. Thank you. As far as forming opinions in advance, that's not just limited to Discord, I've seen it happen in various staff discussions, and I'm as guilty of doing it as the next person. There are often two (or more) discussions on any given issue of misbehaviour, one that includes the affected user and one that doesn't. I think too often, the one that doesn't involve the user tends to jump ahead of the one that does, often without all the facts, and it leads to inappropriate conclusions. That's my main concern here. Usually by the time it's decided that someone belongs in the dungeon (or whatever you end up calling it), there's already been a discussion behind the scenes as to whether the user should be pulled in there. As I recall, putting them in there also removes them from all other channels, does it not? Assuming I'm right, that also adds a presumption of guilt, providing a punishment before a discussion with the user has even happened. I'd rather see the user involved first, before any decisions are made (not counting egregious behaviour, of course, where immediate actions are entirely appropriate). This is probably getting off-topic, however, as it's far more generalized of a concern than this specific instance. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Technically yes, there is a presumption of guilt when putting someone in the dungeon. That's why it exists and why it is named what it is – it is a punishment, a soft ban from the server, while the staff discuss privately, and also discuss with the person involved, whether their actions require a full ban. The alternative is that they get banned from the server straight away, and then the only way to contact them is via private messages, and then it is much more difficult to involve all the staff. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}This isn't about Discord staff versus website staff - this is about a person, who has been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.

UESP is not a random TES discord or Facebook group, it is the single oldest website dedicated to the series, and one of the most respected institutions in the fandom. You, as a representative of said website, are obligated to behave in a manner becoming of its mission and position in the community. Doxxing, using racist language, and making ableist remarks (not to mention defying a soft ban, talking publicly about private conversations, and repeatedly refusing to change aforementioned behaviours) is NOT OK for any regular member of a community, and it is especially not ok for someone that is supposed to represent the very best and most trustworthy of a community (i.e. the staff).

When you use ableist or racist language, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making UESP look bad. You're making people uncomfortable and less willing to contribute to the website and community, potentially driving away valuable contributors. You're eroding peoples' trust in the website and its staff. You're encouraging bad behavior from members and making moderation more difficult, because if staff can act like assholes, why can't everyone?

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. Your recent behaviour has been the opposite of that. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 20:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I'm certainly not okay with my name being made public knowledge without my consent, which is the reason I brought this to the attention of staff to begin with. The fact that it was a racist version of my name is ancillary to the point as far as I'm concerned, and the specifics of that do not need to be addressed publicly.

: This is not a discussion of the demarcation between Discord and the wiki, and I don't find Fullerton's response above to be at all sufficient or even relevant. This discussion is about his continued rights on the wiki and therefore needs to be had on-wiki. Patroller and Blocker are trusted roles, and Fullerton broke that trust. That isn't the kind of behaviour I would expect from staff, regardless of whether it was off-site or not. In my view, the fact that it was done in a third party chatroom frequented by users who are outright hostile towards myself and UESP staff actually makes it worse. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I apologize if I took the discussion a bit off-topic, but I do see the discontent among some users, myself among them, with the way the Discord channel is run as being at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. How it's run has a direct impact on how people behave, and more importantly, how they misbehave. That probably should be a separate discussion, however, if it needs to be had at all. At this point, I'm not sure I see much of a point. I agree with the above two posters that, wherever they are, staff on the wiki should try to behave appropriately when discussing the wiki. It's a fine line to draw for me, though, because people also need a place to vent.

:: What ''is'' important to me here is Legoless' comments. If he's not okay with his online name being linked to his real name publicly, then I'm not okay with it either. Even if the information is out there on the web, publicly presenting it is taking that a step further. Doing so in a room that's hostile towards him does indeed make it worse. Even if someone's venting, there's a time and a place for it, and a way to do it. That was not it.

:: So, while I think there are deeper issues, looking at this request in isolation, I'm not opposed to it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::: I'm just really sad by the whole situation. @Fullerton, I feel as though 90% of the interactions I've had with you over the past year have been positive. Maybe 9% have been frivolous, and 1% annoying or rude enough that I've had to pull you up on the behaviour. I'm not familiar with New Zealand culture and it's possible that it's much more casually racist than the British culture I'm familiar with. Then again, it could also be that you're young and suffering from a lot of peer pressure from friends who dare you to say something dodgy.

::: But look - it's NOT okay to post someone's real name online without their consent. I know you go by your actual legal name online, and that's your choice to do so - but it's also other people's choices to '''not''' do so. Nor is it okay to be casually racist towards other people who aren't your close friends. (I'd argue that it isn't okay to be casually racist at all, but I guess there is some banter between friends which sounds awful to other people listening yet is meant in a friendly way.)

::: I actually '''don't''' believe you should lose your Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki due to your behaviour on Discord, because your work on the wiki has been good. Apparently you have a few annoying editing quirks, but I bet everyone does until they've been here for many years. But you must understand - if you can't be trusted not to reveal someone's personal information on Discord, how do we know we can trust you not to deface wiki pages because you're angry? When you have the Patroller and Blocker roles, you have '''a lot''' more power to damage the wiki. UESP has been going for 22 years. As Lady N said, Bethesda use it to look up Lore they have forgotten, Zenimax use it to get ideas for Arena and Redguard places to revisit in ESO, and we know for a fact that Dire Wolf use it for reference from little oddities which have popped up in Legends. ''The wiki is more important than one person.''

::: I'm sorry that it's come to this. You're intelligent and energetic, and there's no reason on Earth for you to have randomly attacked a wiki admin "for the lols". You could be using that intelligence and energy for good. I hope that you will continue to work on the wiki, so that over time people will feel able to trust you again. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

===Edit Break 1===
I'm gonna ask any conversation about the running of the Discord server, or whether or not there is a precedent for cross-site or even off-site behavior is relevant to your standing on the wiki be shelved. The first is off topic, and the first one has a clear precedent from past incidents. If you would like to make suggestions for the running of the Discord, or the formalization or removal of the existing precedent relating to cross-site and off-site activity, please start a separate topic either here or on CP.

As far as for the actual issue, I would like for Fullerton to respond to the topic. Particularly, I would like for him to confirm that he understands what doxing is, and why it spawned this conversation. Additionally, I'd like for him to be able to provide a response in relation to this issue, before any decision is made relating to it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:As was stated, his real name has come up once or thrice and that led me to believe that he was alright with it being used. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by doxxing. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::Doxxing's a relatively new term, probably a few years old. It means deliberately/maliciously releasing someone's personal information (e.g., name, address, or phone number) when it wasn't generally known. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Robinhood is correct. With that said, if that is true why didn't you just say that before, instead of claiming ignorance to what his name was? Additionally, do you want to comment about the rest of your actions? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't mention it because I assume it wouldn't help my case, that "ignorance is no excuse" would be invoked. In regards to my actions on the Discord server, attempting to evade the dungeon was untenable. However, I would like to say that I am '''not''' an ableist, and I object to being called one. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 08:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::But now it seems/looks like you have been lying to us. How can we still trust your word then? --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::As someone that is in the aforementioned Discord server (which isn't as anti-UESP as portrayed and currently has only <s>one</s> two users who were banned from the UESP Discord server) and saw the immediate aftermath of Fullerton's actions, I will vouch for Fullerton in saying that he seemed genuinely surprised that the nickname he had set for Legoless was his actual name, so, while what could be considered as doxxing occurred, I do believe that it was completely unintentional on Fullerton's part, it might have been a lapse of memory and the specific name being subconsciously picked without conscious awareness that it was actually related to Legoless, but in any case, the intention was pretty clearly not malicious from everything I saw.

::::::Additionally, reading this discussion, it feels like Fullerton has been driven into a corner by you people, being forced to admit to things that don't necessarily correlate to the actual course of events, so either he is a masterful actor and played us all at TJ's server (which I highly doubt), or he's just bending over due to the pressure to try to find the easiest way out (this last paragraph being mostly directed at Ilaro's previous comment). [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 15:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I do not agree at all. If anything, he did put himself into the corner, and depending on what he told you, playing the victim. We gave him more than enough time to explain himself and apologizing without any pressure, but he felt the need to insult the staff and evading the soft ban instead (see the first two links Alarra posted). I am mostly disappointed that he did not even apologize for the doxing (or the racism, which he clearly admitted was the intention). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 17:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: With all due respect, Brynjar, Fullerton lied to you and your friends in the other server. Legoless's real-life surname is uncommon - not only have I literally never heard it before, but it also doesn't appear in the Top 100 Irish surnames lists that I've found online (one from the 1890s, the other from the 1990s). In order to get it correct, Fullerton would have had to know it.

:::::::: If instead of lying after the event and trying to involve all of you in the lie, Fullerton had simply turned around and said, "I'm sorry, it was a joke, I didn't realise Legoless didn't want his real name revealed" we wouldn't be here now. Refusing to publicly acknowledge that he's made a mistake is the exact thing that is making us question Fullerton's judgement, and whether he can be trusted with important wiki permissions. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 19:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} Let's all try to keep in mind that Fullerton is fifteen years old and on the autism spectrum. While it's not impossible, those don't generally go hand-in-hand with being a master manipulator. From what I've seen, he's doing his best to explain his actions but, being that age and not having a full comprehension of social interaction, he's not doing it in a way that neurotypical people would expect and want. And yeah, maybe like any teenager, he knows he's screwed up and just wants to figure out a way that'll get this over with the fastest, as opposed to something more appropriate, so he can move on and pretend this never happened. Being on the autism spectrum myself, I see quite clearly here the same types of mistakes I would have made at his age: not considering the effects of my actions on others and saying whatever was needed to make a problem go away, rather than having to interact with people in a negative way. That's autism!

The fact that he doesn't know how to respond in this situation may well be reason to go forward with the initial proposal, but let's also look at this from his perspective. How would you all have reacted when you were fifteen, caught doing something wrong, and everyone around you was older than you and yelling at you? It's not a fun position to be in. I'm not saying that should affect this decision, but it does give some important insight into Fullerton's responses to this conversation, I think.

Also, baratron raised an interesting point before the edit break. Does this mistake prevent him from patrolling or blocking in a responsible manner? The answer to that is clearly no from a purely logistical point of view. But we do have to consider the social and interpersonal ramifications of Fullerton's actions. Personally, I'm not convinced that removing him as a patroller and blocker will have any beneficial effect on the wiki, and I tend to think that Discord remedies should be sufficient for Discord problems in most cases. But, as I said above, I'm not opposed to the removal of rights, either. The simple fact is, an administrator here was affected because Fullerton didn't think his actions through, which is not really a desirable quality in someone with elevated rights. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:All right, I wasn't going to post, as I came back to the wiki/Discord right as this all happened and didn't see the build up to this (the "small" infractions e.g. the ableism), but I need to say something. Fullerton, your actions were inexcusable. It's not just the doxxing, or the admitted racism that went along with it. Your behavior has been deteriorating for a while. Even before I took my wikibreak, I had noticed that you seemed increasingly abrasive. And abrasive is not a good quality in a representative of the UESP. I was willing to overlook it, because you are young yet and have room to grow, but I cannot in good conscience allow this to continue. Even though I'm on the autism spectrum myself, I know to watch my words regarding other members of my community. Reclaiming words for yourself is one thing, but referring to ''other people'' that way without their knowledge or consent is, indeed, ableist. Just from that, I would have pushed for a time-out. As for the doxxing, I can't speak to the racism, but... Fullerton, you understand that doxxing is a ''violation'', right?

:I believe what this boils down to is consent, and a lack of respect for it. And that's a basic skill that nothing but time and experience can teach you, if ever. Add to that your defense to this incident, which has been... lacking at best, and I must advocate for demotion. Which is a shame, but a necessary one. —[[User:Likelolwhat|likelolwhat]] [[User talk:Likelolwhat|''talk lulzy to me'']] 20:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{Consensus|Removal of Rights|2=Alright, I think we've piled on enough. I'm calling this one now before it goes any further. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)}}

== OB:Efficient Leveling ==

[[OB:Efficient Leveling|Efficient Leveling]] may require protection to keep some utter nonsense off it. I've attempted to end it by contacting the user directly, but given that the user has had over a week to do the basic maths involved in discovering why it should not be on the page (5+5+5 does not equal 5+3+3), I hold no hope that they will come to understand that their edit should not remain on the page and will attempt to replace it again. I'm already on my third revert of the edit, and have no wish to get punished for keeping nonsense off a page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I've fully protected it for a period of 2 weeks. This shouldn't be a problem considering the low levels of editing attention that page has received in recent years, but if it needs to be lifted before then just let an admin know. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

== ESO Dragon Bones PTS Update ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS.

:* uespLog Addon -- Turn custom stats off (''/uespcustomstat off'') to stop a bug in the custom stat display otherwise you'll get error messages in most UI screens.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-17pts/ Files Uploaded] -- In progress...
:* Maps --
:* [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=17pts Skills] -- Done!
:* Skill Cooefficients --
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=17pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons --
:* Collectibles -- Updated to fix an issue with missing items from Live.

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

== UESP's Discord Server ==

As many of you no doubt noticed, I've recently referred to UESP's Discord chat as "dysfunctional". As the person on the wiki with the most rights next to Dave (out of the active users, at any rate), I am at all times aware that it's my duty to attempt to be professional and fair-minded in all things UESP related, so that is not a statement I make lightly. Administrators don't speak against administrators, generally, and when they do, it should be noted. That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why ''four different current- or ex-staff members'' are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming, and only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional. My concerns about how it's run are numerous, so I'll try to break them down into meaningful groups.
* '''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave. During my time on the server, I saw numerous examples of questionable behaviour on his part, including lying, manipulating, interfering in matters outside our server, and outright paranoia that another administrator was out to get him, simply for calling him on some of his behaviours. While those incidents are long gone and not worth getting into at this point, particularly since I have no way of bringing forth evidence at the moment, I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.
* '''Staff''': Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff (if even that). Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.
* '''Accountability/Transparency''': Continuing on from that last, far ''far'' too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public. When members complain, they then sound like trouble-makers. If the complaints escalate, they may even come to ''be'' trouble-makers, simply out of frustration. This needs to change. Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it. If the chatroom is cleared or deleted for any reason, chat logs should be kept and posted publicly, in order to ensure full transparency on any decisions.
* Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making. Even ''in'' political discussions, staff need to be certain that they're not being unnecessarily "twitchy" when it comes to deleting messages or moderating users. If any can be found, I think a few responsible, moderate right-wing people should be brought on as staff, to balance everyone else out and make sure the echo chamber phenomenon isn't perpetuated.
* I understand that the "dungeon" channel has been renamed, and I thank you all for that. This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff. The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help. In this configuration, staff have ''every'' advantage (numbers, increased rights, ability to discuss approach and strategy without the user's knowledge, to name a few), while the accused has none. That needs to be significantly altered. While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing. If the room is to be cleared or deleted afterwards, chat logs should be maintained and published publicly for future reference. Similarly, even if the chat takes place in a private room, chat logs should be maintained in a private location, accessible to all staff in any part of UESP. This will not only help to ensure continued transparency and accountability, it will also allow staff from other parts of the site to be aware of any problem behaviour occurring elsewhere.
* At ''no time'' should any administrator ever delete any comment, theirs or anyone else's, from any discussion relating to rules or discipline. If you say something that came out wrong or was inaccurate or what have you, apologize and move forwards. If you say something that you realize could get you in trouble, well, guess what? You're an administrator...you're accountable for what you say and do! Deal with the consequences like a responsible admin.
* '''Rules''': In far too many cases, rules are developed on an ad-hoc basis. An example from Fullerton's discussion, above, would be not posting the contents of the moderation room to a public room. That's not a rule that was posted anywhere prior to that. From all accounts, it was made up on the fly. If Fullerton wasn't just doing it to spam channels or leak private information, he had every right to post the contents of a discussion about him to wherever he felt it appropriate to do so. After all, it's a discussion about him, and he maintains absolute control over that information. If administrators felt that they said or did something they didn't want public in that chat, well, maybe they shouldn't have done that thing in the first place! I don't know if that's the case here, but accountability is one of the places I feel our Discord server needs the most work, so I'm bringing it up again here as an example.
* Similarly, all rules should be posted publicly to the wiki's Discord page, or a subpage, so that people can know what they are before joining, if they choose to look. This will also help maintain a record of when rules were enacted or changed.
* '''Cross-platform Interactions''': As a rule, what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server. I'm not just referring to the recent issue with Fullerton, but rather, reminding everyone of a rule that has long been in place and has sometimes been ignored: no decisions made on the Discord server should be applied to the wiki, forums, or wherever else, without there being a full discussion on the relevant platform. You can always post chat logs, if needed. Bringing this back to Fullerton, however, I feel that much of what happened was probably blown out of all proportion, from what I've been able to tell in chats with those involved. At best, I feel that this was a borderline case as to whether it should have been brought to the wiki. So, I'm going to suggest that we use this as "the line". If it's less serious of an incident than Fullerton's, keep Discord discipline limited to Discord. We don't need to perpetuate drama across the entire site. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

::Rob has hit all of the points I've had some concern about, and after telling me he was making the post, I wanted to throw in my agreement with each post. I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally. If there were any concerns, they could be brought up knowing it would be fairly handled either there or on our Administration Noticeboard. I feel like that's not the case at all in Discord, and when I was there, I had a handful of users DM me because they were upset that there was such a clear clique and pecking order established in the Discord. There's a lot more emphasis on authority and enforcement, rather than peaceful moderation, and it's affecting how comfortable people are - myself included - when using the Discord, hence my departure from it.

::Users shouldn't have to be concerned that what they say will be picked apart by a cabal (and I hate using this word) that seems to exist in the Discord where the staff are ganging up on people who can't adequately defend themselves. Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.

::I also agree with Rob's thoughts about how leadership is elected, and I feel like going forward there should be a clear election process or consensus to decide who is capable of being a staff member, because at present, I see questionable decisions on who should be staff, and I feel like there should be clear guidelines in place and a nomination process, not existing staff arbitrarily chosing people on their own, as I feel they've been prone to do. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 23:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

:::@RH While you are making some interesting points and some of them could definitely addressed, I still think you are way too exaggerating the problems on Discord. The dungeon channel, for example, is the alternative for outright banning. There is a reason that the person does not have access to the other channels, because it is (mostly) used a soft-ban. I will comment about the other points at another time, because I certainly believe some of them are (partly) right and some of the rules might be changed to reflect these concerns.
:::For now I want to point out this statement from Damon: "where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with." I have no idea why he said that, because everyone in that discussion is in the top 100 of most edits this year (and Damon, you are not there, but I ''do'' still think you have the right to pop-up into this conversation). I believe everyone has the right to have their say, because the wiki concerns a lot more people than only the editors. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I know I have not been an active user of Discord, having only used it about 3 times, but having read the post above, here and in the Fullerton case, my experience of basically being in charge of discipline on IRC (having kicked more people than the bot in charge of auto-kicking), and being one of the most active when I was there, I feel I can contribute/make observations from my experience there.
::::Almost every case of discipline was public, warnings, discussion, actions. Only very rarely did something discipline-wise happen off-channel, usually in private messaging, and usually only to bring attention to something that would then lead back into the public room. This is almost the same as happens on the wiki for demotions, punishments, warnings, even disputes about certain edits, with only a few instances of discussions happening via email. This is a very important point for avoiding accusations of cliquishness, even if it can't stop it. It actually helped that being a "staff" member on the wiki auto-entitled you to IRC status, as the wiki had little knowledge of a persons social leanings if they hadn't been on IRC.
::::The description of the multiple channels reinforces the observation that the channel is not being run for social interaction anymore, given the abundance of rules regarding where you have to post certain things; why are you not allowed to have fun in the main channel. That is an indictment of the current running of the channel, and I would suggest that the aforementioned Bethesda and Zenimax visitors would find that rather sad that no-one is having fun in case they "spoil" whatever passes for enjoyment in that stale environment. The IRC had an unwritten rule that you could have fun until someone needed help or to discuss something wiki/series related, and again it was rarely broken; this also lead to having many people in the channel who knew little about the games but were there to talk socially, making the place more enjoyable.
::::An overabundance of rules only tells people that you don't trust them to behave without them. I personally have probably broken every rule that wikipedia has cared to invent, yet respect most of them and enforce them when they are actually needed. Things thrive best when there are less rules, because the few that remain actually mean something. The current Discord wiki page is still not complete (a particular section is still linking back to the IRC page waiting for someone to adapt it for Discord). Nevertheless, it should not become full of rules as a result, and should continue the kind of informal style of the IRC page. I would also suggest that a complete rethink of all the rules be done, with some or many done away with, and also roll some of the off-shoot channels back into the main one, or merge some of the side ones together (less is so very much more).
::::Finally, a persons behaviour is their behaviour. An admins actions on IRC was an admins actions on the wiki. Even a persons actions off-site when representing the site should be held against them. This can be traced as far back as rpeh's admin rights removal for his actions off-site. When you become a staff member particularly, you are even-more-so representing the site, a responsibility you accept when you request or accept a role. However, back to IRC, an off-hand remark would often be forgotten if an apology was made, given the real-time nature of the network, only more serious actions would have led to something as big as rights-removals on the wiki (this is not a comment on the above discussion). To state it again, if RobinHood70 were to go anywhere on the internet and start doing reprehensible things (like saying my grammar is awful), and we knew it was him, he should be held accountable on the wiki and any of its offshoots (eg twitter/facebook management).
::::Feel free to ignore any of my advice/experience given my utter lack of Discord experience, just as I will continue to avoid social interaction with every one of you for the foreseeable future, given my right-wing stance on treating people with dignity and respect. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::First of all, I'd like to thank RobinHood for bringing this issue to the Noticeboard, and even more so with his resounding points, with which I agree in full in all cases.

:::::I have been one of the most active users in the UESP Discord server for close to an year or so (being on number 4 in the leaderboard - which is based roughly on the number of messages sent in the server - for quite a long period), until I voluntarily left a month ago due to my escalating issues with the moderation and administration of the server. My draft for this post got considerably long so I'll try to bullet point my issues and concerns to try for a more concise and cohesive post:

:::::* Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job. As expressed by some staff members on the server itself, some of them do not even want to moderate and administer the server, and many others have no idea what they’re doing, which has led and will certainly lead to a series of bad and questionable decisions, even more so given the apparent top to bottom hierarchy and authority even among the staff members.

:::::* Divide between the staff and the community: while a difference between the wiki staff and the general public is certain to be expected, it has been made unhealthy by the server privileges given to the wiki staff, creating a sub community that most of the time seems to behave as if they were above the “regular” users, which shouldn’t be the case, given that the server is open to the public. Interactions between most staff members (with exceptions) and the rest of the community are also fairly limited, creating a big divide in the general interpretation of the actions to be taken, which are made exclusively by this more secluded and reserved group than by the biggest share of the active user base; and, as RH said, without consultation or open discussion with that part of the community.

:::::* Poor and inconsistent moderation/decision making: staff behaviour in regards to rule enforcement and problem-solving is completely inconsistent, while one staff might be strict, many others are extremely lax or never actually do anything, and even when the staff intervene, the actions taken vary absurdly from one to the next, and most of the time the staff board as a whole is extremely reactionary and ready to blow something minor and irrelevant out of proportion, making the many suffer for the sins of the one. It seems to me that the staff members lack a good guideline (if they have one at all) on how to treat the server, which ties in to the first point, of staff members not prepared to handle a chat server or unwilling to do so.

:::::Other than that, I would like to stress the points about Accountability and Cross-platforming that RH has made, which I believe are very important here. And despite what Ilaro has to say, all of these are very serious problems for the well-functioning of a chat server and the UESP server specifically, and all of the users I interact with on a more frequent basis, either on UESP or the other six TES servers I’m a part of, all notice and are bothered with most of the points raised here. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 01:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{ec|4}} I didn't bring it up further because the discussion was about Fullerton's rights on the wiki, not your opinion on the Discord server. But I must say that I was rather put out by your comment that the server is "dysfunctional". And maybe it is, if that ideal of functionality is based on the functionality a wiki. But Discord is not a wiki, it's an instant messaging and VoIP service, which is an entirely different medium.
::::::'''Ownership''': While I agree that technically it would be better if Dave was the server owner, I don't think he is active enough on Discord for that to actually be practical. A Discord server needs an active server owner so that they are available to deal with whatever issues crop up that only the server owner can deal with.
::::::'''Staff''': The original assignment of Discord staff based on being elected staff elsewhere on UESP is untenable. It was mentioned to us numerous times that a number of staff elsewhere have been avoiding the Discord because they didn't want to be staff on Discord. Everyone who was initially appointed as Discord staff this way has, as far as I am aware, now been contacted though to see whether they actually want to remain Discord staff or not. So that whole thing actually didn't make sense at all, as it was putting people into a position they didn't want. When it comes to appointing new staff, it appears to work the same way that it does here. Someone is approached by current staff with the suggestion. I think it's a very rare occurrence for someone to actually put themselves forward for a staff position of their own volition, or even with encouragement from other users, without at least one of those other users being staff already.
::::::'''Accountability/Transparency''': I actually don't understand the issue here. It is common practice for administration to be discussed in a private channel that is specifically for discussing administration. If that was done in a public channel, then effectively everyone is now an administrator. Although I do agree that anything that would have an effect on the entire userbase should be discussed with the entire userbase, I can't think of any examples right now where that has actually happened. (I'm sure you can though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up, so I'd be interested in having some examples.)
::::::There does appear to be an "anti-anything-remotely-right" bias, which I think may cause any staff members who are not left-leaning, if they do exist, to not make it obvious.
::::::Yes, the dungeon channel is now called "mediation". Whenever the channel is cleared, the contents are logged and are available to other staff on request. The isolation from the rest of the server is intentional - being put in the "dungeon", as was, is effectively banning someone from the rest of the server without actually kicking them from the server (you can't talk to them if they're kicked). It originally existed solely for this purpose; someone isn't banned if they can still access the other channels. This has been repurposed however, and I think can now serve as a "public" moderation chatroom, if such a thing would ever be required (but I can't think of any examples why it would be, as then it could just be discussed in #general).
::::::I'm not sure what your "deleting comments" sentence is getting at. Comments that violate the rules would of course be deleted, but I don't think that's what you mean...
::::::'''Rules''': On that specific example, a rule that has existed since the initial staff overhaul in October is ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential"''. Since that rule only applies to staff, only staff can see it, to avoid confusing the rest of the userbase. Fullerton was well aware of this rule, and anyone who is suspended to the moderation channel is informed of it as well.
::::::While conceptually similar to the IRC, I think the way Discord has grown means that "token AOPs and HOPs" is just not a viable moderation method. The (rather high) number of staff required to maintain a large server probably does make it seem like there's a clique, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on how we can try to avoid that, yet while still maintaining necessary server integrity.
::::::I do not see anyone who commented on Fullerton's case who is not a regular/active UESP wiki contributor, based on the active editors from the last 12 months. Although it would be up to whoever decides what "consensus" actually is to determine whether consensus can be reached based on the currently-involved participants.
::::::Regarding how staff are chosen, I have no idea how it works on the Forums, but however it works there is probably the best model to use as a base for what we do on Discord. A forum is much more similar to a chat server than a wiki. Having a two-week discussion to reach someone's arbitrary definition of "consensus" is not a viable basis.
::::::In conclusion however, if "what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server", surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it'', and then be involved in the implementation process of actually making the thing better. "Fixing a broken system that we didn't realise was broken" is what I've been doing at work for the past three months, and the best progress towards a resolution always comes out of a discussion where a clear direction of what to do next is given.

::::::@Silencer: If there appears to be a "rule against fun" in the main channel on Discord, let me know where that seems to have stemmed from, as that's not something I would support (although given how active the main channel usually is, I don't actually see it). Also if there is a general feeling that there is an overabundance of rules, I'd be happy to discuss trying to cut them down, if we can work out what's not actually needed.

::::::@Bryn: Immediate moderation rights for staff was a concept that was based on trust. i.e., "if they're trusted to moderate elsewhere, they're trusted to moderate Discord too". But we realised this was not what many of the other staff wanted, and as such, this is no longer the case, and all who were initially appointed like this have (I think) been contacted to ask if they wish to continue. Anyone newly appointed to a staff position elsewhere on UESP retains that original concept of "trust" though, and by that reasoning, are still asked if they would be interested in moderating Discord based on that. Any suggestions for improving staff/community interaction would be welcome, but I maintain what I said before that server moderation cannot be a community activity. There is definitely inconsistency within staff behaviour, but I don't actually know how that can be improved, as everyone will have their own way of doing things. In terms of actual rule enforcement (i.e., moderation), there is no reason that shouldn't be consistent if the rules are the same for everyone. Again, if people who "are bothered" by this come forward with their problems ''and solutions'', then there is no reason that we can't address these.
::::::--[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Eno: I appreciate the changes being made, and while I can see the reasoning for the trust factor, I think a competence qualification should also be looked for in a communication medium that works fundamentally different from what those people are used to moderate. I have proposed the following solution at least two times publicly on Discord and a few times directly to staff members, but it has so far been ignored. What I've always proposed is a divorce between wiki staff and Discord staff; there should be specific roles and channels for wiki and forum and guild and what-have-you staff, for sure, so that they can discuss topics that concern their specific roles, but those people should not also be made or necessarily even asked to become moderators for the server, and this should instead be relegated to members picked for showing aptness to follow and enforce rules and integrity in chat, kinda like I hear the "Tea Party Moderators" were selected (although I think this current approach is still flawed). I didn't go at length with this suggestion in my previous comment because it was already too long as it was and I felt it was detracting myself from making the points I thought needed to be made. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 02:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::{{ec}} @Enodoc: I'll respond more fully later, as it'll take some time for me to really go through this point by point, but I did want to respond to one thing that may help clarify my attitude and actions here. Specifically, your suggestion that ''surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it''.''

::::::::The problem here is that in taking this discussion to the Discord server, we are stating that we're willing to rejoin the server in its current state. I, for one, am not. I do not want to be seen as supporting it in any way right now. Yes, I think it's actually that dysfunctional, or at least it was the last time I was there. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if a discussion of the server takes place ''on'' the server, staff there are under absolutely no obligation to do anything whatsoever about the suggestions made and, unless we all go there together at the same time, any individual comments will be lost in the chatter of the general channel. The user could well be deemed a trouble-maker and have their comments deleted. Even if it did become a highly active discussion there, as you can see from some of the comments here, trust in some of the Discord staff is not high among some users. We simply have no confidence that any discussion held on the server wouldn't simply be deleted. By holding it here, on the wiki, it's not in Discord staff's hands, and a full, permanent record is available to any and all without requiring them to join UESP's Discord. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}I'll preface this by saying that I am one of the "current or former patrollers" mentioned above who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that the UESPWiki Discord server is being run. Make of that what you will.

One of the most serious issues I attempted to raise during my (brief) time in the channel was the lack of transparency which seems to have become endemic since the move was made from IRC. This has manifested itself most notably in the deletion of the block logs page - Fullerton also attempted to address that, above. Frankly, I don't feel Alarra's argument that a public list of banned users would encourage misbehavior holds any water, and I'd appreciate some clarification of this claim, if she’d be so kind.

Is there a precedent that's made you feel this way? Do you feel the same way about the [[Special:BlockList|block logs]] on the wiki? Should they be privatized on the basis that they might encourage infamy? I moderated the [[UESPWiki:IRC|now defunct IRC channel]] for more than three years, and during that time the [[UESPWiki:IRC/Bans|channel block log]] was maintained meticulously, because it was understood that the chat was simply an extension of the wiki, and so the same rules applied - including record keeping. I’m disturbed to see that this commitment to openness has fallen by the wayside so completely, and in such a short amount of time.

On the topic of record keeping, I find the accusation levelled against Fullerton that he ''"posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created)"'' really, really worrying, and actually symptomatic of a much larger culture of silence. If a user feels uncomfortable with the way that staff are treating them, and feels they're being dealt with unfairly, they shouldn't just be permitted to raise the issue elsewhere - they should be encouraged to do so.

''"He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users."'' Once again, where on the Discord guidelines page does it say that this is grounds for removal of role? Why is this grounds for punishment at all? Conversations with staff members are not top-secret information - if someone feels uncomfortable with the way a staff member has spoken to them, and feels that policy has been violated, they're within their rights to consult another user for a second opinion. A second set of eyes can offer valuable insight. Ordinarily, going to another, unbiased staff member would be preferable, but that's difficult if you feel there ''aren't'' any unbiased staff members.

I’ll admit this part of the post struck a chord with me, personally. In the past, I was repeatedly bullied and called horrible names by a member of wiki staff, in a series of IRC private messages which began under the guise of a reprimand for misbehaviour. This bully had been on the site far longer than I had, and was a well-established member of the community; I was the same age at the time as Fullerton is now, and I had no idea how to react. I firmly hold that distributing the logs of those discussions was the right thing to do, even if it was a technical violation of the rules; it meant that others were able to tell me that yes, this was something inappropriate and no, I wasn’t at fault. People in authority are not above authority. The user in question was ultimately blocked, which should tell you all you need to know. Transparency of moderator behaviour is important to ensure fairness and equality.

''"Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers."'' In other words, anyone who disagrees with the actions taken by the moderation staff - even if those actions have no written basis and are made up on the fly - should be blacklisted regardless of prior behaviour. Good to know.

''"Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business."'' This one speaks for itself, I think, as to the contempt some current staff members hold for the users they preside over, but I'd like to quote the page on [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]] anyway:

''"All editors' opinions should be given equal weight. In particular, administrators do not have inherently greater authority than other editors. Because of their greater experience with the UESPWiki, administrators may have more knowledge of how content is currently organized on the site, or be able to refer to similar examples on other wiki pages. Therefore, administrators (and experienced editors) may be able to provide more support for their position. Their reasoning, rather than their status, may therefore cause their opinion to influence a discussion."'' Ahem.

''"The reason we created (the #dungeon) is to have time to let all moderators give input."'' Some of the moderators on the Discord server were not, in fact, elected by the wiki community at all. Yet they're being treated - and are behaving - as though they were not only administrators, but final arbiters of justice. Are staff who were given their positions with no input from the people they're supposed to be moderating really qualified to do so?

These quotes all illustrate a wider lack of accountability by the staff members to the community as a whole. Other examples of bad practice can be seen in instances where [[Skyrim_talk:Proudspire_Manor#Transclusion_to_Houses|consensus is reached]] [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|on Discord with no input]] from the wider editor base, the argument being made that anyone who wants to partake in discussions should simply use Discord, or in Dillon deciding to make [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Discord&diff=1697969&oldid=1696580 significant changes to the guidelines] by removing the part which said that all staff members were equal in the channel with absolutely no discussion at all. The fallout from that little change was the creation of a "non-staff patroller" role, once again without any discussion, which was allocated to certain blacklisted users. Unsurprisingly, no mention of this distinction is made on the page.

If we go further back, we can see [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans|AKB unilaterally deleting the block logs]] page, on the basis that it “serves no purpose.” I beg to differ in the strongest possible terms, and I know I’m not the only one. I was told in the channel that the reason for this decision was actually because it was inconvenient to keep it updated; judging by Alarra’s post above, that narrative has been amended retroactively.

Another problematic aspect of the channel was the consistent jeering, mocking and snide remarks by the staff about a specific, very active wiki editor, behind his back. Since I haven't preserved the logs of this bullying, and since it took place publicly only on occasion, with the majority of the vitriol being espoused in a private channel by the administrative staff, it doesn't particularly serve as evidence, but I certainly wasn't the only person to witness it. As far as I know the user who was the subject of these taunts is still unaware that this ever occurred, or that he was frequently the butt of the administration’s jokes.

I myself was also mocked, publicly, by an administrator after I left the UESPWiki server; several users I shared servers with told me separately that I had been “dissed” by someone who was supposedly a role model. That’s not on. As Lady N so succinctly put it, this is about people ''“who (have) been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.”''

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. The recent behaviour of some members has been the opposite of that. You’re there to serve the community, not to rule over it. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 02:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:Again I want to comment about the accusations that are held against Discord. There are so many points now that I have no time (now) to discuss them, but [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|this]] link you shared @KitKat shows the contrary of what you are arguing. One: it was an edit that added a merge ''proposal''. Two: it was brought to the wiki ''because'' it was something that should reach consensus here and not on Discord. It is impossible to keep all ideas and brainstorming on the wiki when there is another chat platform available and I don't see the problem with asking input and refining ideas before making edits (Most edits are already made without any pre-knowledge of other editors, only larger ideas and problems are brought to the talk pages and/or community portal and this is/should still be the case if Discord is used as a mediator). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 03:00, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::Because one of my edits was mentioned specifically, I'd like to respond to that. The edit to UESPWiki:Discord was simply to reflect the current setup of the roles and channels at that time. I did not intend to change any guidelines, and if I did it was a mistake. I can definitely understand having a discussion on the talk page first before making major changes to the staff roles on Discord. However, these changes were already decided (and not by me personally) when I made that edit so I was updating outdated information. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 03:18, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Could you point me to the discussion held on the wiki (ie; on the [[UESPWiki_talk:Discord|talk page]] for the Discord server, the [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard|Admin Noticeboard]], or the [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal|Community Portal]]) where it was decided unanimously that all staff members on the server were no longer equal to one another? Because that's the sentence you removed: "There are three staff roles with equal standing" was amended so that it no longer stated each staff role was equal. That's a significant departure from the previous content of the page; when was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? And for that matter, why was it decided that patrollers were no longer equal to admins? You haven't said in your edit summary. As a patroller myself, I had and have a vested interest in this discussion, but I wasn't invited to participate at all. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 03:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2018-01-10T02:36:31Z

Kitkat1749:

[[Category:Message Boards]][[Category:UESP Administration]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__<div style="float:right">{{Scrolling Archive Table|class=collapsible collapsed|height=225px|width=300px
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 1|Archive 1|February 2005 – June 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 2|Archive 2|June 2006 – August 2006
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 3|Archive 3|September 2006 – June 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 4|Archive 4|June 2007 – July 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 5|Archive 5|August 2007 – October 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 6|Archive 6|October 2007 – November 2007
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 7|Archive 7|December 2007 – January 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 8|Archive 8|January 2008 – February 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 9|Archive 9|February 2008 – August 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 10|Archive 10|September 2008 – October 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 11|Archive 11|November 2008 – December 2008
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 12|Archive 12|December 2008 – March 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 13|Archive 13|April 2009 – December 2009
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 14|Archive 14|January 2010 – May 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 15|Archive 15|June 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 16|Archive 16|June 2010 – October 2010
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 17|Archive 17|November 2010 – January 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 18|Archive 18|February 2011 – April 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 19|Archive 19|May 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 20|Archive 20|June 2011 – August 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 21|Archive 21|September 2011 – October 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 22|Archive 22|November 2011 – December 2011
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 23|Archive 23|December 2011 – February 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 24|Archive 24|February 2012 – March 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 25|Archive 25|April 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 26|Archive 26|May 2012 – June 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 27|Archive 27|July 2012 - August 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 28|Archive 28|August 2012 - October 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 29|Archive 29|October 2012 - December 2012
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 30|Archive 30|January 2013 - March 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 31|Archive 31|March 2013 - June 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 32|Archive 32|July 2013 - November 2013
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 33|Archive 33|December 2013 - February 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 34|Archive 34|March 2014 - August 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 35|Archive 35|August 2014 - November 2014
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 36|Archive 36|November 2014 - September 2015
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 37|Archive 37|March 2015 - February 2016
|UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard/Archive 38|Archive 38|March 2016 - May 2017
}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}</div>
The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions.

'''Before starting a discussion here,''' please review the list of other community pages below, as your question or suggestion may be more appropriate on another page.
{{Example Table|
Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
{{Bullet Link|[[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|Policies and Guidelines]]|A category listing of policies and guidelines, which each have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies (see [[#Active Discussions|Active Discussions]] for links to active policy discussions).}}
{{Bullet Link|[[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Vandalism|Vandalism]]| Discussions regarding vandalism and spam.}}
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== Getting redirected to mobile pages ==

After some debugging I've reached the conclusion that this is happening because of the Squid cache server you use: a user visits a page from his mobile phone, and the mobile version of the page gets cached in the Squid server. The next person who loads the page gets the mobile version, regardless of what platform he's browsing from, because that's what's saved in the Squid cache.

This only happens to unregistered users, since logged in users don't have their caches paged by Squid. If it happens to you, you can press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Squid to bypass its own cache and serve you the current page.

But, please, fix it. It is very annoying. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 17:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:Thanks for the note...this shouldn't be the case as the desktop and mobile versions of the page are different URLS (en.uesp.net and en.m.uesp.net) but a quick test seems to agree with you. I'll check it out further and see if it can be fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::So I must have got really lucky with my quick tests as I can't recreate the issue in on other page or with the original page (http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa) once I purge it. If you can give some more explicit examples of how you are testing it so we can replicate that would be great. Squid does cache using the full URL so it would seem that this is not the complete issue at the very least. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:04, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

:::One of your assumptions is wrong. All users get the mobile theme from en.uesp.net, provided they have the user-agent of a mobile browser.
:::A quick way to reproduce this with a computer would be like this. '''Do all of this while logged off!'''
:::* Open Google Chrome and hit F12, this will open the developer tools toolbox. At the top-left side of this toolbox, the second icon next to the mouse cursor is a mobile and a tablet ("Toggle device toolbar"), click it. You'll see the current page has stretched; click the dropdown on top of it that says "Responsive" and switch it to some mobile phone, "Galaxy S5" is OK. Now, you're sending the user-agent of a Samsung mobile phone.
:::* Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa -- depending on who visited it the last time, it'll be the full or the mobile version.
:::* Press Ctrl+Shift+R to ask Chrome to reload the page, telling the web server to completely disregard the cache. This will make Squid destroy its own cache and ask MediaWiki for the webpage. You'll see the mobile version appear as it should: MediaWiki is being told you're a mobile phone, and therefore you're getting the wiki with the mobile theme.
:::* Open a new tab. This time, it's the normal browser; you're not pretending to be a mobile. Open http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Br%27itsa You'll get the mobile version of the wiki. This confirms it's cached in Squid like that because you just visited it from a mobile phone. Press Ctrl+Shift+R, this way Squid will destroy its cache and ask MediaWiki again for the webpage. You'll get the full version, because you have the user-agent of a computer.
:::* Switch back to the mobile tab. Click the URL field and press enter to reload the webpage making sure you're '''not''' bypassing the Squid cache. You'll get the full version of the page, because that's what you cached. If you press Ctrl+Shift+R again from here, you'll get the mobile version.
:::* And so on.
:::I hope you can reproduce it. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 18:18, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

::::Ahh, that was it. For some reason the "autodetect" portion was still on. I turned that off and have to figure out how to auto-redirect mobile devices to the mobile site (which I thought it was doing). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:40, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I made some changes which include a forced redirect to the mobile site to prevent the cache poisoning. Give it a go and see if that works for you now or not. It seems that MobileFrontEnd doesn't redirect itself and it is handled by another part of MediaWiki or the HTTP server in Wikipedia. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:37, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::tyvm. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 09:45, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::Well, I have just realised this keeps happening. The only difference now is that instead of the whole mobile page being cached, what's cached is the redirect to en.m.uesp.net, but the effect is the same. --[[User:Sandbox|Sandbox]] ([[User talk:Sandbox|talk]]) 11:04, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

::::::: Of course it does...:) I made a quick change to try and prevent Squid from caching the 302 redirect. Once again it "seems" to work in a few quick tests but if you find otherwise let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:13, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
::::::: Also had to make an unrelated change in order to get HTTPS to work for the mobile changes so the "en.m.uesp.net" mobile sites are no longer going through Squid which prevents them from being cached at all (at least for the moment until I can figure out multiple SSL certificates in Squid 2.x). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:14, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}Starting a new line - i have noticed that this has started happening again recently. (Like before, its fairly annoying, as it autochanges every time). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 21:55, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

== Testing New Ad Network ==

I happened to have a chat with some from Curse recently who mentioned that they run an ad network for gaming related sites which includes better vetting of ads to reduce/eliminate the number of "bad ads" (auto scrolling, auto playing, inappropriate content, etc...). I've signed up for a 2 month test run with them to supply all the ads on UESP during this time. I'm setting it up this week so except a bunch of changes from day to day. I'm hoping this give us roughly the same revenue to keep the site running and reduce user frustration with ads.

If you run into page errors or ad issues of any kind don't hesitate to let me know (Curse ads are not yet active). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:15, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:I'm sure a lot of people will be happy if it is an improvement. Some others will be happier with the new puns available (including the ability to Curse ads). [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:03, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

::In a confused second I found myself looking for the "Like" button to express my support. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 20:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I'm not sure if this is an error, but as of today, AdBlock blocks ads but leaves a blank space at the top where the ad was, instead of collapsing that blank space. I'm also seeing ads at the top when logged in (or a blank space if AdBlock is enabled), but I have not logged in for a while so I don't know if that is new or was intentionally changed. '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►t]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►e]] 14:49, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

::::I have the same blank space as Vely, however I don't see any ads at all and I don't even have an ad blocker. [[User:WoahBro|•WoahBro]]''[[User talk:WoahBro|►talk]]'' 15:18, 22 June 2017 (UTC)

:::::I'm not one to complain about blank spaces if they are caused by ad-blockers, but I've just tested with Chrome and Opera (as well as my use of Firefox) and the blank spaces at both the top and bottom are persisting when the inbuild blockers are active. The blank space can be rather off-putting and looks odd, so something should be done, whether removing it or putting one of those explanatory messages about why ads are needed. Feels odd to be cursing the lack of ads. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:02, 24 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}}I did not even know there was an inbuilt blocker in Chrome, and I have certainly not actively turned it on. (Where is the setting for that?) Still there are these blank spaces on the top and bottom of the articles where the ads were supposed to be. How can this ad network give any revenue if the more common browsers are blocking the ads by default? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 08:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:My mistake, Chrome is planning to add one (by next year), I thought they already had one. Without my installed one the ads appear, with it blank spaces. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:50, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

::All the more an issue. The ads are not there on my Chrome. Just an empty space over the article and an empty space under it. And I have no known adblock software. The ads are there with Edge. —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 17:42, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

:::I have got the ads now, with no change in my settings. (Still Chrome on Win10) —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 05:40, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} As a temporary workaround for the top ad taking up space when it shouldn't, I've added a means of suppressing that specific ad altogether. To do so, just add <code>#topad { display:none; }</code> to [[Special:Mypage/common.css|your common.css]] page on a new line. See [[User:RobinHood70/common.css|mine]] if you want an example. A few provisos: only logged-in users can do this, since IP users can't customize their CSS (at least, not via the wiki), and this may change or be removed at any point, since it's not an ideal long-term solution and it will obviously depend whether we want to keep the new ads in the long-run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:30, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless I'm missing something this isn't active wiki-wide nor have I touched my cs, yet the top space is gone. I've logged in and out, and on both Firefox and Opera the space is gone, though it remains on Chrome (no adblocker). Perhaps it just needed a purge with the new ads? [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 22:56, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

::Somehow, I'm not really surprised, even though nothing I did should have had that effect. There have been a lot of different reports of ads, space, or nothing, with no apparent rhyme or reason. Caching of some kind could well be part of the problem. At least for those who are just getting a big blank space, this'll let them get rid of it. I'm largely leaving the rest to Dave, though, because I don't actually know what all was involved with the new ads, and there's clearly things affecting them that I'm unaware of, so I didn't want to poke around too much. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:14, 13 July 2017 (UTC)

:::Can we go back to the old ads please? Or at the very least block the ones with autoplaying videos. I've been getting those on every other page, and you'll probably go deaf if you dare open more than 2 tabs. There's no way to report them, and I don't think the Steam Overlay browser supports any adblockers. [[Special:Contributions/98.18.163.16|98.18.163.16]] 00:22, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

::::I see all these postings about video ads, but I can not seem to have registered any of them myself. Are there wide variations on who gets them and not? —[[User:MortenOSlash|MortenOSlash]] ([[User talk:MortenOSlash|talk]]) 13:56, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== Redirect Escaping Issue ==

This is probably a pretty specific issue, but when you search with the <code>!uesp</code> bang on DuckDuckGo, it sends you to e.g. <code>www.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim:skyrim&...</code> which gets 301 redirected to the appropriate language subdomain such as <code>en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:Search?search=skyrim%253Askyrim&...</code>, but the search field seems to get double URL encoded in the process, so when it gets decoded after the redirect, colons show up as <code>%3A</code> in the search field and there's no results. This also happens with spaces, turning them into <code>%20</code>, so the search is basically unusable via the DDG bang. Hopefully this can be fixed, as it would otherwise be super convenient! [[User:DuBistKomisch|DuBistKomisch]] ([[User talk:DuBistKomisch|talk]]) 15:36, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

:This appears to be a problem with their coding, as it also fails when using it to search wikipedias subnamespaces. It appears they are using hex codes when converting, rather than the standard html codes used on mediawikis. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 17:41, 20 June 2017 (UTC)

== beyondskyrim.uesp.net? ==

I'd like to bring up the issue of this new wiki and point editors towards [http://beyondskyrim.uesp.net/wiki/Talk:Main_Page this discussion]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 16:39, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:Unless Dave has given his permission that wiki is infringing on our name and our site/servers. I don't believe it has permission seeing as it makes no sense to have a separate wiki on the same site, detracting from the main one, and it is duplicating the layout by wikipedia and not here. I can't see any links for contacting the site owners but if they are the same people as the ones editing here I suggest they either cease and desist or let it be known that they have dave's permission to use his servers. I've emailed Daveh, as others probably have too, to get this sorted. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:: It's hosted by us/Dave, apparently at the request of the mod authors. However, I also agree that it's damaging to our own Tes5Mod documentation to set up a competing wiki. If we're hosting it, it should be on our platform. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:04, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::: First of all, there's definitely no infringement issues, as it was set up by Dave together with one of the Beyond Skyrim team leaders. I hope Dave doesn't mind me posting this, but here's the discussion between myself and him after the BS developers concluded that they wanted to ditch their unused wiki at Dark Creations:
<pre>
Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Have you ever considered hosting other Elder Scrolls fan wikis?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
What other ES fan wikis?

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
The Beyond Skyrim guys are apparently looking to move their wiki out of Dark Creations.

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Ahh, I see
We could definitely host that for them if they'd like
We've hosted a bunch of small fan sites over the years.
TamrielRebuilt is one the larger ones (no longer with us but we had it for a while).

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Don't we still have TR stuff in the TES3Mod namespace? Or are they not using it any more?

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Not sure what we have on the wiki, but they had their own web site/dev wiki seperate from ours.
I think we have some general info in the UESP wiki.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Ah OK.
Well thanks for the offer of hosting, I'll pass that on to them and see what they say!

Reorx - 23/06/2017
Yup, that goes for any ES site that happens to need hosting, temporary or otherwise.

Enodoc - 23/06/2017
Hmm, I will endeavour to remember that :smiley:
27 June 2017
</pre>
:::Now personally, if Dave is happy with the concept, then so am I, and since the BS wiki ''itself'' is a product of the BS team, then I don't think the UESP wiki administration has any say on whether it actually exists or not. The alternative would be that it's just hosted somewhere else. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 17:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: The Tamriel Rebuilt content we host is in-depth and high-standard, and includes the [[Tes4Mod:Stirk|Stirk Oblivion mod]] in addition to the main [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|TES3 project]] which is still updated by members of the modding team and UESP editors alike. The Tamriel Rebuilt [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/ website] mentioned in the conversation above is not a (public) wiki. This Beyond Skyrim website, on the other hand, is in direct competition with UESPWiki. As you said, its existence is a decision for the modding team, but I think we're shooting ourselves in the foot with regards to our own BS documentation if this goes ahead. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 18:00, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::The logic of having a semi-competing public wiki hosted on the same server wasn't really the concern for me. My concern was whether it had permission to be there and if it does then that's fine. There's not really any notes about what the wiki is for, or how it intends to avoid duplicity with existing content here (unless of course it intends to duplicate sections of the main wiki). This may all be due to it being in its infancy, but someone must surely have anticipated the anxiety such a wiki would create upon its creation and sought to allay any concerns by being open and upfront about its existence. The users on this wiki have always been concerned about the use of our materials without proper attribution or permission, and with good cause, so to see a new wiki using our name with no apparent endorsement was very concerning. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:08, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::From the BS team's perspective, the draw for having a separate wiki over making use of Tes5Mod space was so that they had direct administrative control over it and were not bound by any of the UESP restrictions on what is actually allowed in modspace. The draw for them being hosted on the UESP server was ''intended'' to be to foster cross-cooperation between the two wikis; they get a spot on the server of a well-respected Elder Scrolls fansite, we get links from them for documentation of the primary Skyrim gameplay aspects, which they then don't need to duplicate as they are mostly unchanged, and it frees us from having to consider how to document Beyond Skyrim in the '''Depth over Breadth''' category because we know there's a dedicated wiki specifically for that purpose.

::::::For the end user, the result is essentially the same; if they're here looking for Beyond Skyrim, they'll start off at either [[General:Beyond Skyrim]] or a root page in Tes5Mod (yet to be created). From there, if we have all the content ourselves, they will either end up navigating through numerous subpages of that one Tes5Mod root page, or if we link to the BS wiki, they'll be navigating through the pages there. As long as they can find what they're looking for, I don't really think they'll care whether it says "UESPWiki" or "Beyond Skyrim Wiki" at the top. Beyond that, anyone who enters the BS wiki from other entry points, such as the official BS website, would see the close relationship with UESP and may then be inclined to visit us as well. If they were off on their own, that connection wouldn't be there.

::::::Being labelled as the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" rather than hidden away as the n'th mod covered by UESP also allows them some legitimacy, as I have always believed that there is less support for the creation of unofficial wikis on a topic if a specific community has a designated official one. I would say therefore that the UESP being the hosts of the "official Beyond Skyrim Wiki" shouldn't really be considered a detriment to us. The fact that Beyond Skyrim even considered the option of having UESP host their official wiki should speak volumes about how much the wider Elder Scrolls community values us as an Elder Scrolls site, and the fact that UESP/Dave agreed to host their official wiki was certainly met with a very positive reception when it was announced to the Beyond Skyrim team.

::::::So with that in mind, I would like to suggest that we act like the gracious hosts that I thought we were, and we show support for the Beyond Skyrim team and their official wiki. Beyond Skyrim needs to be documented, and they have somewhere for that to be done. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:42, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

::::::Edit: I keep forgetting to mention that the wiki's URL is broken, and beyondskyrim.uesp.net is not intended. For all technical domain purposes, it is supposed to be wiki.beyondskyrim.org, but the certification isn't ready. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 22:55, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The initial talk page I linked to above has been deleted, so I suppose this discussion will have to happen UESP-side (as it should have from the start). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:59, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

: It might be worth mentioning that the uesp wiki will also have pages on us just like there are for Tamriel Rebuilt (our community was founded via Tamriel rebuilt members). The fact that the url for this new wiki contains uesp is temporary and because I haven't bought the certificates yet to use the wiki.beyondskyrim.org and devwiki.beyondskyrim.org url. {{uns|Meliodas|23:01, 2 July 2017 (UTC)}}

:: So I've discussed the purpose of the public BS wiki with Meliodas at length and it doesn't appear to have very much overlap at all with our potential coverage. I'd therefore like to suggest that we limit our coverage to the released mods (currently only Bruma), which is exactly how we handle TR releases. The BS wiki is much larger in scope, and in hindsight I realise it was unfair to label it as competition since its focus is inherently different. Does this work for everyone? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:36, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

::: Sounds good to me! Seems I may have misinterpreted the purpose of the public BS wiki all along. Or perhaps its true purpose was yet to be decided, and with the hype of the Bruma release I was rushing to a conclusion that was not ready to be reached. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:46, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Agreed! It seems we have come to a solution that is good for all involved parties. --[[User:Meliodas|Meliodas]] ([[User talk:Meliodas|talk]]) 01:08, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach PTS ==

A little late on this update since I just got back from vacation...fortunately it is a smaller content DLC.

:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15pts Files] -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:59, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

: Awesome! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:00, 14 July 2017 (UTC)

== Pseudo-Namespace Proposal ==

If we are to be documenting the content of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]], starting with the release of [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Bruma|Beyond Skyrim: Bruma]] which just came out, I think it would be beneficial to set up some pseudo-namespaces for that information, similar to what was done with [[Tes3Mod:Tamriel Rebuilt|Tamriel Rebuilt]]. A slight difference in format here is that each province is being developed as a separate mod, unlike TR3 where everything is part of the same one, so ideally we will need pseudo-namespaces for each one of those. Right now though, all that is released is Bruma, which is part of the Cyrodiil province. So following the layout of [[MediaWiki:Uespnamespacelist]] (thanks for the link, RH), I would like to propose a namespace for [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil]]:

<pre>
# NS_BASE ; NS_ID ; NS_PARENT ; NS_NAME ; NS_MAINPAGE ;
Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; BS5C ; Skyrim ; Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ; Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil ;

NS_CATEGORY ; NS_TRAIL
Tes5Mod-Beyond Skyrim-Cyrodiil ; [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Main Page|Tes5Mod]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim|Beyond Skyrim]]: [[Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]
</pre>

Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:I'm not sure we need to create pseudo-namespaces for every partial release of Beyond Skyrim, particularly if we are not going to document it to the same extent as Tamriel Rebuilt due to it having its own wiki for that level of detail. I don't see any reason not to set this up at least for at least Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:23, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

::I'm leaning towards Silencer's thinking at the moment, but a lot depends on just how much documentation you're expecting, and how you intend to organize it. It makes a lot of sense to have everything under a single pseudo-namespace of Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim, so you can have parent-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Main</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Places</tt>) as well as sub-project pages (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>). But if there really isn't a need for parent-project pages, then that's just going to lead to a page structure that's all sub-project pages anyway (e.g., <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Black Marsh/Places</tt>, <tt>Beyond Skyrim/Bruma/Places</tt>), and having each different subspace defined might make more sense in the long run. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:17, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::The province mods are completely separate, just like the games in the Elder Scrolls series itself. Beyond Skyrim is an umbrella, not a project in its own right, and each mod will have its own partial releases (which is why all links from BS: Bruma already go to pages under BS: Cyrodiil). I think that format would indeed all be double-sub pages, because there would be no need for a BS/Places (if it existed, it would be ''very'' long). The level of detail we should be documenting here is pretty much the same as what we have for Tamriel Rebuilt; quests, places, NPCs, and all gameplay stuff. Conversely, the Beyond Skyrim wiki is the equivalent of lorespace, not a gamespace, and that's the sort of stuff we don't have for TR, because the depths of TR lore are on their own website at the [http://www.tamriel-rebuilt.org/tr-handbook TR Handbook]. For a parallel, if we were to ever document the [http://www.nexusmods.com/morrowind/mods/44922/? Province: Cyrodiil] mod for Morrowind, we would likely do that with a "Province: Cyrodiil" pseudospace, not a "Project Tamriel" pseudospace, because PC is a mod in its own right despite being under the PT banner. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 20:35, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

:::: Enodoc's suggestion sounds sensible to me: separate mods, separate pseudo-namespaces. "Tes5Mod:Beyond Skyrim: Cyrodiil/Places" is a bit of a mouthful but it works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 15:23, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

:::::Okay, that makes sense then. I just finished implementing it. Let me know if there are any issues. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:21, 16 July 2017 (UTC)

== Spambot? ==

Not quite sure what to do with [[Special:Contributions/122.173.186.102|this IP]]. It added a corporate LinkedIn link but reverted it. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 05:06, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

:It's still spam, but perhaps a less severe penalty, maybe just a warning (something for future reference to know that IP has spammed before if the next move is done). Also remove the edits from public view as most spam and vandalism is these days. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 11:31, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

::Following the link provided, this company is very obviously going to be aware of social media and how it works, so my feeling is that it's a sneaky type of advertising. They know the change will be looked at, even if it's reverted. For that reason alone, I'd suggest revision deletion, and otherwise treat it like any other spammer. If it's only a one-off occurrence, there's not much point in blocking the IP, but we should keep our eyes open for similar behaviour in the near future, whether from that IP or another IP/account. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 16:09, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

== Account Creation Spam ==

Recently, bots or users have been making it through our captcha check and creating numerous new user accounts. Over the course of the day today, I've tried tweaking the captcha several times, starting with minor changes to the algorithm, then getting a bit more elaborate this last time. Each time, it has been followed within moments by what appear to be new random accounts. This suggests that either there's human involvement in the creations or that the bot is very broad ranging and won't be deterred short of a major change in approach. I could change to a different style of question captcha, or a different captcha completely, but if it's an actual human creating these accounts, that would be a waste of time.

For those who are wondering, they're all coming from completely different IP addresses, and most are using different naming styles, so neither blocking nor title-blocking will be terribly effective. As someone pointed out on the wiki, it's possible that some of these are non-editing accounts that are intended only to use the ESO Build Editor or just to save settings, but I'm not sure that would account for the number of accounts we're seeing, and some of the names seem really spammy in nature. It's hard to say with absolute certainty, though.

In the short term, there's not much to be done that I haven't already. In the long term, however, there are a few potential options, though most have some kind of problem associated with them:
# Put up with it, knowing a vandal could use these accounts to launch a bot attack from multiple accounts at once or in quick succession, potentially becoming a distributed denial-of-service attack (which has never happened, so not likely a big threat). In terms of not locking out legitimate users, this is probably the safest option.
# Require patroller/admin creation of all new accounts. This has several issues, the biggest being that either a communal e-mail box would have to be maintained for these applications, or some other simple mechanism of applying would have to be created. It's also possible that spammer(s) would just continue a variation of what they're doing now, and simply flood the system with requests.
# Create an extension to delete the accounts if they go completely unused and aren't logged into for X days. MediaWiki wasn't really designed with the idea of deleting users, though it is possible. The danger is that a bug in the program could delete legitimate data. Plus, it would require Dave or I to program it in the first place, since I don't see any extension that would work on a large-scale basis. (The only one I found is intended to completely wipe a single user from the database within certain limitations.)
# Switch login/account creation systems completely. The current recommended method is [http://openid.net/what-is-openid/ OpenID], which has a MediaWiki [[mediawikiwiki:Extension:OpenID|extension]] available. That would limit a spammer's ability to create accounts based on having OpenID accounts available, but then it also requires that a real user have an OpenID account. Most do, mind you, whether they realize it or not, since it's linked with numerous common services like Google and Facebook. Of course, that's still potentially prone to abuse, depending on the spammer's ability to get around any given service's account-spam prevention. This would be entirely up to Dave to install, and may cost money...it wasn't entirely clear.

In the past, we've generally gone for option #1, but given the complaints on Discord about the wave of new user accounts, I thought I'd throw it out there for discussion again. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:50, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

:Given the relative lack of vandalism or spam by new user accounts I would be very wary of escalating a problem that doesn't ''appear'' to exist. Besides today I have not seen a huge amount (certainly not above "normal" numbers) of new accounts that would be worrying, but I know that a significant percentage of these accounts are by spam-bots that are simply getting blocked by the abuse filter, so do not ''appear'' to be what they are. As far as I can tell, we are also one of the cleanest open wikis on the net, as we've always had diligent recent changes monitors. The recent extreme vandalism is also very very rare, and we won't see the like for a long time once we are past it, certainly not enough to make me think there was something wrong with our account making process (well besides not having blocked the username "Administrator" from use). I thought the whole think was rather contained in nature, with our new Blockers having a hand in stemming the abuse. Option 2 for me is a non-starter, I think the amount of requests would far outweigh the capability of looking at and deciding the merits of them all, plus it removes the idea that we have an "open" wiki, because even if you still didn't need to log in to edit, you would need our "permission" to "join". Option 3 should be left alone too. The reason mediawiki chooses not to allow deletion is because every edit is tied to an account/IP, and deleting them means that the edit no longer has verifiability. While this is not the intention of such a program, the possibility should be locked in a vat of toxic waste and tossed into the Sun. There are problems associated with mass-deletion of vandalism from the history of pages (namely proof of the vandalism), and there will be even more problems with deletion of accounts where there is no proof of maliciousness. I just don't like Option 4, as it ties us to another site/group. It also appears that Google, Facebook, and Yahoo have abandoned it, with the only major user being PayPal. I just don't like the idea of requiring someone to have an account on another site in order to join here, though perhaps we should think of allowing people on Facebook and Google+ to associate their accounts here, and/or have the ''choice'' to use them to log in here.
:The last option still wants to improve our creation process, but it's hard to see how with any captcha as they are always vulnerable to bots. The latest method is two-factor authentication using a phone. This, as far as I can tell, requires human interaction. Required two-factor authentication either via email or phone, is one step that doesn't infringe on our openness, as the likelihood of a potential user not having one or the other is probably zero. If at all possible we could also incentivise it by reducing the time and/or amount of edits required before gaining full freedoms to edit. PS, no idea if that would affect account creation by logged in users, but obviously try to avoid it if possible. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:35, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

::Just to clarify, for option #3, I was referring to accounts that have no edit history whatsoever, including any deleted edits or abuse history. Also, even though it isn't required to edit, e-mail verification is already being done by the bots in many cases. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Horns of the Reach (Update 15) Release ==

The usual file/data updates for HOTR DLC will be posted below:

:* uespLog Addon -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.20!]]
:* Achievements -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated!]
:* Champion Points -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php Updated!]
:* Skills and Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php Updated!] and double-checked
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Maps -- Nothing to update.
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-15/ Uploaded!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done!]
:* Books -- Done! (upload in files and updated database)

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 13:58, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

== Autopatrolled ==

Is there a process for requesting the <samp>autopatrolled</samp> bit? I do a lot of typo fixing and Style Guide compliance edits, and I think the minor edit stream is annoying to patrollers. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 01:20, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:The process is documented at [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled Users]]. The short of it is: those with patroller permissions <s>get tired of patrolling your edits</s> notice that your edits are usually good, and nominate you to become autopatrolled. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 04:38, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
::Noted. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 21:44, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
:::Mine arent fully good yet, at least not until I learn all the differences in templates/procedure. (So apologies to the patrollers in the meantime. I [[Special:Contributions/Timeoin|tend to post a lot]]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 11:10, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

== Site issues ==

Noticing some major issues this morning - Did we upgrade the wiki software recently or something? All of the sidebar stuff is gone, and I can no longer upload images - also the image upload page no longer lists the licenses in the licensing drop box. In addition, the UESP-specific options that usually appear below the edit window are also gone. Seems like all hidden site pages have been completely reset to defaults. The site would not let me post edits due to "loss of session data", and suggested logging out and back in, and when I did so, it would not let me log back in, claiming I had cookies disabled, which I do not. This occurs on both of my computers. Is anyone else experiencing this problem? - [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 13:58, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

:Okay, not sure if somebody did something, but a couple hours later, it seems to be working again. Not sure what was up with that... — [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] ([[User talk:TheRealLurlock|talk]]) 15:27, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::The site was down two Saturdays ago (the 19th August) in the morning, but completely down, not just not displaying properly. Not sure if its relevant but the coincidental timing is there. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 16:46, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

::: Daveh said on Discord it was due to memcached crashing every Saturday morning. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:09, 2 September 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City PTS ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS. This update may take longer for me since I'm dealing with a newborn most hours of the day so if you're looking for something in particular just let me know.

:* uespLog Addon -- Seems to be working fine on PTS so far.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16pts/ Files Uploaded] -- Done!
:* Maps - Done! I've added a link to Clockwork city from the base Mundus map but all other locations still need to be added.
:* Skills -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Skill Coefficients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=16pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons -- Uploaded!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:28, 19 September 2017 (UTC)

:Hey Dave, the uploaded icons.zip appears to be only about 2/3 complete. Some folders are missing and it's ~70MB instead of the usual ~90MB. Thanks! --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 00:18, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
::Thanks...fixed! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:13, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

== User Rename ==

Renamed Nephmir to [[User:Starkiller131|Starkiller131]] per their request. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 19:32, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

== Gift Brainstorming ==

Every year, usually around Christmas time, I like to give out an ES/UESP related gift to thank the site's contributors and fans. For example, last year we did the Tamriel map posters. In deciding what to do this and following years I'm looking for suggestions on what we could do. For now don't worry about the details too much and let your imaginations run wild. For some things there are potential issues like cost, shipping, and licensing issues but those can be dealt with once a gift project is actually chosen and started.

Some of my ideas to start with:

:* '''Coins''' -- I had some coins made for a summer camp project a few years ago and they are relatively easy/cheap with many different construction options.
:* '''Maps''' -- I love maps although since we did one last year there's no rush in doing another one. If we ever do another map I'd like to commission an artist to have a custom one drawn up for us.
:* '''UESP Merchandise''' -- Take just about anything from [http://vistaprint.ca VistaPrint] or similar sites with a UESP logo.
:* '''Books''' -- A more work intensive project but might be nice to see some of the better UESP pages/lore/art in a actual bound book.
:* '''3D Printing''' -- You can do a lot with 3D printing lately using models from games including character models or world spaces. Downside is that this is complex and relatively costly.
:* '''Replicas/Figurines''' -- The minimum order for a custom model is relatively low and within the realm of possibility. Licensing would be the main issue.
:* '''Posters''' -- You could make a poster of just about anything (ex: a nice game screenshot, lore articles, etc...).
:* '''Charity''' -- I like to give a little to charity each year when we can. Past recipients include World Vision, Charity: Water, and Child's Play. This would be in addition to the fan gift.

Looking forward to some of your ideas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:14, 3 October 2017 (UTC)

::The UESP Merchandise caught my eye, but its hard to see what would work. A mouse pad or t-shirt would not suit everyone, but perhaps a plate or glass or mug. I think my muffins would benefit in taste sitting on a plate with the logo. Another idea popped in my head when browsing vistaprint; a calendar. There are a couple of versions of the Tamriel calendar to pick from, and then pick 12 of our featured images to use for the months. You could keep it generic by leaving off the weekdays and just starting each on the first, or you could use next years dates to make it more usable. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:32, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Here is a collection of community comments I got on this:
:::*I like the idea of coins
:::*Ooh, what a really kind idea. I like the sound of coins too.
:::*I like coins
:::*Comission for a map would be really cool (I am still sad I didn't get one last time :frowning: )
:::*Illustrations and maps are neat
:::*Charity one is the best one
:::*I like the idea of posters, maps and figurines myself
:::*Coins or UESP merchandise. Seriously. I would LOVE a shirt with the UESP logo on it
:::*I also like the idea of coins
:::*I vote for shirts for the best idea now
:::*Maps are pretty gosh darn cool. You can put them on your wall and stuff. Coins are metal. It is harder to put them on walls. If this is a contest of wall-put-ability, I think maps win.
:::*I think artwork that feels like in-game product would be neat. Think a traveler's sketchbook with ink illustrations of creatures and whatnot
:::*Yeah kinda want one of those maps but maybe of all of Tamriel
:::*You know those life sized cardboard cut outs of LotR characters. Lets get those for Shadowscales. Scare the shit out of you whenever you enter your room and there is a shadow of an Argonian standing in the corner.
:::*3D Printing in-game models sounds awesome!
:::*I still like maps. Posters of iconic Vistas are cool too.
:::*As for charity. You go through TES able to kill the wildlife knowing that another will spawn... And another... And another... AND A-BLOODY-NOTHER!! Anyway, this isn't the case for the real world. Help give species a chance to up their spawn chances. As someone studying the animal sciences, I'd say the Durrell Wildlife Conservation Trust, as they're responsible for saving more species than any other organisation and training people in doing likewise.
:::*i think a picture of all the main races with a chunk of the province they're from behind them could make for a cool poster
:::*I would enjoy having an actual leather bound copy of an Elder Scrolls book. I may have to make one some day.
:::*like the idea of a figurine, Pelinal Whitestrake maybe?
:::*Coins and/or other in-universe memorabilia gets my vote
:::*I would adore some Septims.
:::*i wanted a big ass tamriel map for my wall last year, and i didnt got one. i even wanted to buy something like this but... no luck. maybe this year i can. soooo.. i will go with the map thing. Some septims would be nice too, tho.
:::--[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 20:04, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
::::I like the idea of UESP-branded wearables or coffee mugs. Wearables do have the issue of sizing and such that have to be accounted for, where mugs are fairly universal, so there's that to consider if you go for merchandise. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:20, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
:::::*I love and adore the idea of coins. The various coins which Bethesda and/or ZOS have produced to promote the various games are now collectors' items. I think we should avoid maps, because we Did That Last Year. The UESP Discord logo would look great on one side of a coin, with... I dunno, the head of Martin Septim on the back :P (Or Hermaeus-Mora, as the Guardian of Knowledge?) Can you also get writing along the edge? If so, UNOFFICIAL ELDER SCROLLS PAGES 2017 should go there :)
:::::*I would also support the idea of UESP merchandise, but I think this should be for us to purchase ourselves, e.g. through Spreadshirt. This would not make any money for the UESP, but would at least break even. In this way, we could get them in custom colours, with our UESP affiliation on. e.g. "UESP Wiki Admin" / "UESP Wiki Editor" / "UESP Forums Moderator" / "UESP Discord Admin" / "UESP Guildmaster" / "UESP Guild Officer" / "UESP Guild Member", etc. People with multiple affiliations could either position all of the text using Spreadshirt's layout tool, or pick their favourite one.
:::::*Mugs are also great, but would be super-expensive to post, even within Canada. Again, I think they should be for users to purchase themselves. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 08:19, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

== Minor Issue (Resolved) ==

As Alarra recently corrected [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Merdyndril&curid=167488&diff=1681627&oldid=1681624 here], there as a circumstance whereby they were attributed as being the author of [[ON:Message to Jena|Message to Jena]]. (See: [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Online:Message_to_Jena&oldid=1681625 here]). The problem was that not only was it wrong, its wrong nowhere else. Except [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena right here]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 07:59, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
:An addendum, for clarity: there is little chance this was accidental. [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Message_to_Jena?oldid=1894979 this was the date their page was created]. The Maulborn Cultist, [http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Merdyndril?oldid=2264203 was not created until a year after]. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 08:18, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::While it's likely that you're correct, this particular instance seems trivial. A note will, after all, be pretty much the same from one wiki to the next. It isn't like they copied an entire dungeon walkthrough wholesale, or used our images or what have you, at least not in this instance. For more significant instances, I believe Dave said he prefers to handle these issues himself, so I'd suggest e-mailing him or flagging him down on Discord. That policy may be out of date, though. If he refers you back to us, Atvelonis and I have spoken on occasion, so I'm happy to bring any concerns up with him if needed. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 09:03, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::: Just to clarify Timeoin... you're complaining that Wikia copied the ''links'' of a UESP book page page on their own site's book page... back in 2015 (when you were still an admin over there and could have checked the page for plagiarism before you edited it).

::: Is this really of note for the AN board? Exactly what are you looking to achieve?

::: What I find odd is that when we were both admins on Wikia, you very rarely spoke up about the vast amounts of actual UESP plagiarism that was taking place there. I don't recall you ever reverting UESP content. It was left to the other admins to deal with. So why is it a concern now? You speak to Atvelonis on Discord, would it not make more sense to take it up with him?

::: I don't wish to start any drama, but you're clearly bitter about what happened to you over there. Which is why you're taking any opportunity get some sort of revenge. Be it the constant badmouthing, anonymous editing over there or threads like this. Its not healthy. Take it from someone who was in the same boat, but in a '''much''' worse position than you was - you need to move on. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 09:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

::::Since I keeping getting pinged on Discord, here are my thoughts on the matter. Even if the UESP was the source of the mistake on Wikia, which is possible, I don't think that arguing over such a minuscule point is worth anyone's time. As others have stated above, it's just a link, and a pretty old one too. My inclination here would be to [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Assume good faith|assume good faith]]: it's entirely possible that same authorial assumption was made independently by users on both sites. Users add plagiarized UESP content to Wikia all the time, and I make an effort to catch this early on, especially when it comes to images. If you find something that is genuinely worth reporting, by all means inform me of it, but I don't think that being this pedantic helps anyone. —[[User:Atvelonis|Atvelonis]] ([[User talk:Atvelonis|talk]]) 16:07, 5 October 2017 (UTC)
::::: I agree with Jimeeee. I apologise wholeheartedly. Also - I should not have pinged you, Atvelonis, and will not do so again. So ... yeah, please consider this closed? (Changed the header too - since that helps ''noone'') [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 17:09, 5 October 2017 (UTC)

== Move Request ==

Hello. Could an admin please move {{Deleted|Captain Velyna}} to [[Online:Captain Velya|Captain Velya]]? Velya is the proper in-game name. (Evidence: ESO Log Data). [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 06:53, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

:Could someone please also move {{deleted|ON:Domihaus (set)}} to [[ON:Domihaus|Domihaus]]? They are the same page. Thanks :) [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 10:52, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

::I've merged Timeoin's second request because I want to make a general request that an admin start merging and deleting some pages that have been marked so. These actions can only be done by an admin, and there are a lot of duplicate pages sitting idle, as well as merge requests that haven't been done yet. Not doing these things is starting to cause a serious backlog of follow up actions, links to the wrong duplicate page appearing, as well as the confusion that is given by having empty pages being filled in when the information already exists elsewhere. There are dozens more pages I have identified as needing deleted, and have put off marking them so as to make it easier for an admin to do each page properly without knowing there are over 100 more pages marked for deletion (which there are). [[:Category:Marked for Deletion]], [[:Category:To Be Merged]]. PS A particular bugbear on merges for me is the Desolate Mine place and quest, marked for renaming by Legoless more than 2 years ago with no logical or given objection to it happening, yet no action taken. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:11, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

:::Bugbear slain. I started on the pages marked for deletion the other day, but that'll definitely take some time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:47, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Username Usurping ==

There was an account called "Zenith" made in 2009, with no contributions, and I was wondering whether I could usurp that username for a UESP account. {{unsigned|76.66.92.8|00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)}}
:Also worth noting is that this request was originally made on our Discord channel, where this user is already known as Zenith to the majority of the people on the server. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 00:58, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
::I confirmed that the user hasn't logged in since 2009 and has no edit history, so I've gone ahead and renamed them. You may now create an account as Zenith. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:15, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

== ESO Clockwork City (Update 16) ==

Another ESO DLC is out today and so the usual round of updates:

:* uespLog -- [[Online:UespLog_AddOn|Updated to v1.31]]! (1.31 has bug fix for guild store purchase bug)
:* Achievements --[http://esolog.uesp.net/viewAchievements.php Updated]! (new icons still need to be uploaded)
:* Skills -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoSkills Updated]!
:* Skill Coeffients -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkillCoef.php Done] (and checked)
:* Champion Points -- [http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoCps Updated]!
:* Icons -- Updated!
:* Files -- [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-16/ Uploaded]!
:* Books -- Done! (book text uploaded and updated in database)
:* Maps -- Done! (4 maps updated, still working on adding all locations)
:* API -- [http://esoapi.uesp.net/current/index.html Done]!
:* Items -- Done!

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:43, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

== Translating Team for Italy ==

My friends and me would love to start translating UESP in italian.
We're good at english and we can write in HTML. We're 5 or 6 at the moment, but we can recruit more people with our skills.
I'm opening this discussion for everyone who's willing to take part in our project.
[[User:Undriel|Undriel]] ([[User talk:Undriel|talk]]) 00:51, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Count on me! [[User:Daffodill|Daffodill]] ([[User talk:Daffodill|talk]]) 01:00, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::I'd be happy to work on the italian translation [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 01:04, 28 October 2017 (UTC)
:::It sounds interesting [[User:Fenerevar|Fenerevar]] ([[User talk:Fenerevar|talk]]) 10:58, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

::::I'm in. [[User:CurseMyName|CurseMyName]] ([[User talk:CurseMyName|talk]]) 11:35, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} There are no official steps to creating a translation project (the Portuguese one was a test) but unless there are any objections from admins I'll set it up in a few days once I've done most of the ESO updates from the latest DLC. Is there one person who is willing/able to take the lead/admin position for the project? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:45, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

:Thank you a lot. If the translation project will be approved I'll gladly take the admin position [[User:LadyLigeia|LadyLigeia]] ([[User talk:LadyLigeia|talk]]) 10:52, 31 October 2017 (UTC)LadyLigeia

{{od}} The Italian UESPWiki has been setup at [http://it.uesp.net/wiki/Pagina_principale it.uesp.net]...hopefully you can forgive the delay as I was focussed on some ESO work backlog last week. I've imported the MediaWiki and Template namespaces but nothing else at the moment. If you run into any issues on the new site let me know here or poke me at [mailto:dave@uesp.net dave@uesp.net]. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:15, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

== Request for revocation of account rights. ==

After thinking over my ultimate place in the universe for a long, hard while, I've decided that this evening I'm ready to return to the UESPWiki and work on some of Jeancey's Morrowind Overhaul Project and give some love to my favorite game. I've also decided to do it without the pressure that I've always felt by being an active and regular member of staff, and I want to get back to just editing and enjoying myself.

After many long months of thinking about it on a self-imposed break, I've decided that I want to voluntarily relinquish all elevated user rights currently on my account, including my patroller rights, blocker rights, and any others that may exist that I've forgotten exist.

I am aware that, should I want them, I'll have to be renominated and be put up to a community vote again, but for the foreseeable future, I'm not at all interested in anything to do with them and I ask that an administrator handle this request at their first convenient moment, in accordance with my wishes.

Many thanks, -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 18:14, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:Given that Damon has already qualified as a Patroller, I'd suggest that in conjunction with this request, we grant him autopatrolled status. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:02, 28 October 2017 (UTC)

:: I've removed your Patroller and Blocker rights, Damon. I would support autopatrolled status if someone wants to make the [[UESPWiki:Autopatrolled_Users#Nominations|nomination]]. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:::I'll go ahead and do that, if Damon doesn't object. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 22:48, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

== 2018 Fan Gift ==

Christmas and the new year is quickly coming and I've been thinking about what to do for the UESP fan gift this year. I like the suggestion of a calendar made in the previous gift suggestion topic and am leaning strongly in that direction.

:* 2018 Year Calender
:* Can use Tamriel names for months and weekdays (or perhaps in addition to real names?)
:* Include both real and Tamriel holidays (make it obvious which is which?)
:* Artwork Could Be:
::* Fan Created
::* Screenshots
::* Composite (made up of Bethesda copyrighted images and others)
:: I'd rather stay away from using Bethesda original artwork to avoid the legal issues and would prefer the first 2 if we had the option.

Assuming people think this is a good idea I'd like to get started on choosing the 13 pieces of artwork for the calendar (12 months + title page) and the calendar details. Note that assuming we do a 10x17" wall calendar the artwork would have to be of reasonable size/quality.

Time flies so if we could decide on everything by the end of November that would permit printing by the start of December and hopefully shipping before Christmas. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

:What if the images were a selection of the UESP's Featured Images, where possible? We can throw together a quick vote of which ones look cooler for any particular month or season to match the feel of that time. Or move on to not-FI images if needed. Throw something [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|like this]] in for October and Halloween, for instance? Also, I would want the calendar to be completely Tamrielic, no Earthly times on it! -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 04:36, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Yes, that's a good idea. I assume most (all?) of the Featured Images are screenshots correct? -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:30, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

::Another quick thought...it may be a good idea to have several images per month composited together, especially if some of them are lower resolution. For example, we could group 3/4/5 Halloween related images for the month of October. So more options for each month would be a good thing. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:34, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've gone through the FI's and picked some that I think a more identifiable with the seasons/events. This is not a comprehensive list, a lot of the pure NPC/creature ones I left out as they are focused on that subject alone.

Winter 5: [[:File:SR-npc-Brelyna Maryon 03.jpg|Frost Atronach being summoned]], [[:File:SR-interior-Deepwood Redoubt 02.jpg|snow in a cave]], [[:File:DB-place-Edla's House.jpg|snow on a house]], [[:File:SR-creature-Ice Wraith.jpg|ice wraith with the moon over snowy mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-Alduin's Bane 02.jpg|dragons fighting on a snowy mountain]]

Spring 10: [[:File:ON-quest-The One That Got Away 02.jpg|sunrise over a lake]], [[:File:SR-place-Solitude.jpg|Solitude on a nice day]],
[[:File:ON-place-Alessia Bridge.jpg|sunny day (trees look autumny though)]], [[:File:ON-quest-Daughter of Seamount 02.jpg|sunny and cloudy day]], [[:File:SR-place-Druadach Mountains.jpg|the misty mountains]], [[:File:SR-quest-The Cursed Tribe 02.jpg|a giant throwing a tantrum near some Orcs]], [[:File:SI-place-Mount Sheogorath Summit.jpg|colourful countryside]], [[:File:OB-quest-Alteration Training.jpg|bright day over a lake]], [[:File:MW-place-Lake Masobi.jpg|misty day over a lake]], [[:File:OB-quest-A Brush with Death 02.jpg|vivid trolls]]

Easter, only 1: [[:File:OB-quest-Bear Season.jpg|the anti-Easter message (bears eat sheep)]]

Summer 5: [[:File:MW-place-Ghostfence.jpg|the dust near Ghostfence]], [[:File:ON-place-Weeping Giant.jpg|stone giant taking a nap]], [[:File:ON-place-Upper Craglorn.jpg|a sunny river]], [[:File:OB-quest-Go Fish.jpg|a fish with big teeth on a sunny day]], [[:File:MW-place-Nchuleftingth.jpg|A sunny day over Nchuleftingth]]

Autumn 5: [[:File:ON-place-Windmill (Davon's Watch).jpg|windmill with moons between spokes]], [[:File:SR-quest-Dawnguard (quest).jpg|vampires with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:SR-quest-Robber's Gorge.jpg|bandits with the aurora borealis and a moon]], [[:File:SR-place-Shrine of Azura 02.jpg|Azura's statue with the aurora borealis]], [[:File:OB-quest-Peryite.jpg|Peryite's statue at night]]

Halloween 4: [[:File:SR-npc-Ancano 08.jpg|some eerie magical swirls]], [[:File:ON-quest-A Ghost from the Past 04.jpg|Sithis]], [[:File:SR-power-Lycanthropy.jpg|werewolf with both moons]], [[:File:DB-quest-Clean Sweep.jpg|ash spawn crawling out of the ground in a tomb]]

A lot of the spring/summer ones could be one or the other. February could use a winter or a springy one. Halloween is the only event that has decent representation as the games lend themselves well to that "scary" theme. A Christmas or Easter one might need to be sourced from our other images. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:01, 3 November 2017 (UTC)

[[Image:2018_Calender_Month_Test_1.jpg|240px|right]]
:Great! Another thought of image materials are the various high-quality screenshots that people take of Skyrim and ESO with various mods/graphical enhancements. These would require the permission of the screenshot owner. I'll see if I can track down some good ones and get permission.
: I've made a very quick/initial drawing of a calendar page as I envisioned it. It is still very rough but feedback is wanted sooner rather than later. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:56, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::That looks pretty good. I could advertise it on social media and add "Submit high quality screenshots to us to use in the calendar" to possibly get some nice ones sent to us. If we were to say, offer anyone we used an image from a copy of the calendar, we could probably get a few. Would you be okay with that? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 17:32, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I thought the license for screenshots gave the UESP the copyright, "the copyright for this particular composition is held by UESP", while giving Bethesda copyright on the components. Like any edit, images have always been treated as belonging to the wiki once uploaded, for us to use as and where we think suitable. Plus, even for Skyrim, a lot of image takers are no longer active. AKB's proposal seems good, at most you'd be giving out 12 images to non-UESP people, and all of them could be evaluated for use on the wiki itself even if they fail to get used in the calendar. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:49, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

::::re: AKB's suggestion of getting screenshots from fans, I was thinking the same thing so go ahead and see what people can send us. Regarding the SS permission I was referring to images found outside of the UESP. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:58, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

 

::::Another more refined sample: [[Image:2018_Calendar_Sample_3.png|240px|right]]
:::::* Tried to give it a more lore/medieval look with parchment background and imperfect grid lines.
:::::* Added site logo,
:::::* Originally I was thinking of having text box with the some text from the UESP's relevant article. Unsure if that is too much or better to go with just a title/page link or perhaps nothing at all.
:::: Keep the feedback, ideas, and more pictures coming! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

 
::::: Dave, I like the parchment background with UESP logo, but with the white squares. I'd mock one up if I was on my Mac (which has Photoshop), but all I have on this PC is Paint. My reasoning is that I love the UESP "branding", however a lot of people need to write on their calendars and this is easier to do with a white background. Also, the imperfect grid lines will make a lot of us twitch! Thus I feel that parchment background with UESP logo but a white calendar grid section is the best compromise. I would like a title to each picture - including which game it is from - but I don't feel we need a huge box explaining what it is, let alone a wiki URL which is difficult to type. If the wiki's search function is working properly, people will be able to look up "Brelyna Maryon" and "Frost Atronach" easily enough :) [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 22:50, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: A couple more image suggestions:
::::::Spring: [[:File:SR-creature-Birds.jpg|Skyrim birds]], [[:File:RG-place-Shrine of Morwha.jpg|Shrine of Morwha (mother goddess)]]
::::::Autumn: [[:File:OB-quest-Information at a Price.jpg|Skingrad]], [[:File:OB-quest-Azani Blackheart 3.jpg|Ayleid ruins]]
::::::Winter: [[:File:ON-place-The Black Forge.jpg|Coldharbour]]
::::::—[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:12, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::A more refined draft with some of the suggestions implemented. [[Image:UESP Fan Gift 2018 - Month Test 4.jpg|240px|right]]
:::::::Barring any suggestions that require large changes I'd like to finalize the overall design and move to choosing the month images. There is also the question of exactly what holidays to include:
::::::::* All ES lore holidays
::::::::* Only Major ES lore holidays
::::::::* Real world American/Canadian holidays
::::::::* Other real world holidays
::::::: -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:57, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
 
::::::::I'm against the inclusion of real-world holidays, since we don't knowfrom which country the winners will be. I like the style, however -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 20:49, 15 November 2017 (UTC)
{{od}} I agree with Sarthes to exclude real world holidays. I still like a small lore explanation on the calender like in the second mock-up, but maybe that will distact too much from the image. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:46, 15 November 2017 (UTC)

: The first draft of the calendar is available at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft1.pdf'''. Please review it and put any comments here.
:* There were a lot of great images submitted and it was hard to pick and choose just 13 of them. If you feel an image doesn't fit well let me know and we can easily find another one.
:* Spelling, grammar and lore corrections are welcome (I've already spotted a couple myself).
:* Better or more accurate descriptions for some of the images would be good. I just guessed at some of the locations. In particular:
:::* January - Where is this?
:::* February - Where is this?
:::* April - Dragon names?
:::* July - Where is this?
:::* August - Where is this?
:::* September - Better caption?
:::* October - Where is this?
:Right now I'm aiming to print 250 of them and mail them out like the maps last year. Now is a good time for people to start thinking about how they wish to distribute them. The more I can get mailed out in December the better! I also don't want as many left over at the end as the maps last year...I still have about 100 maps that can be sent out if people want them. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 21:18, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::January and July look like Falkreath hold to me, and part of the same general area, but can't pin it down. The dragons in April look like Alduin at the Throat of the World. I'm going to stick my neck out and say that mods are involved there, as there are no dragons that white (the frost dragon is white but with large dark coloured parts), and it's breathing fire which a frost dragon shouldn't do. I don't think that means it should be excluded though, but I can see a red sword in the lower right sky. September, it looks indoors, so it could be a frustrated mage trying to light a hearth. October is Heartwood Mill in the Rift, from Skyrim. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:22, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

:::January is somewhere near [[Skyrim:Evergreen Grove|Evergreen Grove]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-51184|y=-61784}}. February is [[Online:Razak's Wheel|Razak's Wheel]], I think. April is [[Skyrim:Alduin|Alduin]] and [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax|Paarthurnax]] fighting at the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]]. That red dagger is a result of a spell I created. If it looks out-of-place, it can be photoshopped away. July is [[Skyrim:Lake Ilinalta|Lake Ilinalta]] {{Map Link|ns=Skyrim|x=-1942|y=-53920}}. August is likely to be [[Online:Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)|Volunidai's Manor (Grahtwood)]]. I highly suspect October to be [[Skyrim:Half-Moon Mill|Half-Moon Mill]].
:::Are the Summoning Days really specific to the Daggerfall City-State? I always thought they were the same for all of Nirn. Also, the Gauntlet at Sun's Dusk 2nd is also Boethiah's Summoning Day. Hogithum at First Seed 21st is Azura's. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 14:02, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
::::Thanks! For the summoning days I believe they were only actually used in the Daggerfall game but like you say are probably Tamriel wide. We can either omit them entirely or I can add them as another type/color holiday to make it easier to fit in with the other holidays you mentioned (I might try that and see how it looks). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:13, 24 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::With SarthesArai's help, I found the exact location January was taken from, and I can confirm that his description and coordinates are correct. July is also Ilinalta, though the coordinates given are a bit off. I used {{Map Link|x=-18000|y=-53000|zoom=16|ns=Skyrim}}. I also double-checked in the game and October is definitely [[Skyrim:Heartwood Mill|Heartwood Mill]], as Silencer suggested. Are there any other Skyrim locations that need double-checked? – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 17:53, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've made all the suggested changes with the only outstanding location is February...I don't think it is Razak's Wheel as I went all over and couldn't find the view. I'm pretty sure it is a view to an unreachable location in a delve somewhere but I can't quite remember it. If I can verify the location in the next day or so I'll upload an updated draft of the calendar. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:32, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:Correction: It's Klathzgar, near the Skyshard, looking outside the playable area. Thanks to [[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer]] for actually finding it. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:20, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

::That's it! I asked on the ESO sub-reddit and someone answered pretty fast as well. I'll get an updated draft up tomorrow. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:09, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:::The latest calendar draft is up at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft3.pdf'''. Unless there are other changes/corrections to make I'll be submitting it for printing in a few days. I'll post another topic regarding the distribution of calendars (it will be the same as the map poster last year). As a last minute update I added the birthsigns to each month (they can be easily removed if people think they don't fit well). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 14:20, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I like the birthsigns, but I think they might fit better with the month name, instead of on one of the calendar squares (and then they would be in the same spot for each month). --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 17:37, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::Another way would be to have the birthsign image as a background, though only as a faint outline, or even just the constellation. I don't think that would take too much away from the desired white background boxes for writing in. Faldar's Tooth doesn't really help place Heartwood Mill, "on the shore of Lake Honrich" or "near Riften" might be better. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 19:04, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::: Yah, I didn't like the location of the birthsigns either so I've tried moving them up to the title line which looks a lot better I think. See '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-LoResDraft4.pdf''' for the latest. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:10, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} That looks better than I thought it could be up there. It has my vote as ready to go. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 18:20, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:I agree, this looks really nice! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 19:26, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

::Barring any last second fixes I'd like to send the calendar to the printers tomorrow and get started on the various distribution methods. Ideally I'd like to start shipping at least some of them before Christmas. I'll start a new AN topic tomorrow regarding that. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:43, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Final calendar release is at '''http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf''' (or higher resolution at http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final.pdf if anyone would like to print it themselves). Note that I had to add 2 new images/pages at the end as the printer was only able to print 24 or 28 page sizes. Hopefully there are no obvious errors for those as the print job has already been started. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:06, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

::::I was just wondering: where were those final two images taken? Or, if you don't know, do you have the links for them on the wiki? Thanks! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:53, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

:::::The first one appears to have been taken from [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Overlook|Dragon Bridge Overlook]] - checked in-game and you can get a very similar view from there - or perhaps somewhere nearby like [[Skyrim:Cliffside Retreat|Cliffside Retreat]]. The second is in [[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern|Moss Mother Cavern]]. (I play this game way too much.) ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 03:26, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

::::::I was thinking the second one looked like Moss Mother Cavern, but I wasn't sure, and I couldn't find that exact image on the wiki, so I thought maybe I was wrong. Thanks, Alarra! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:40, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Got mine in the mail yesterday and it looks fantastic in person! Just wanted to leave a quick thanks, Dave! Good work on the calendars this year! :) -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 05:52, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

== Paarthurnax ==

The Blades demand for the removal of [[Skyrim:Paarthurnax (dragon)]] has seen the page blanked 6 times since last December, with only one constructive edit in that time. I think it needs some additional protection for a while. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 13:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
: Agreed. Delphine is such a tryhard. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 13:43, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::I've semi-protected it for a year, and we'll see how it fares after that. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:46, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::Good god I can't believe people are still butthurt over this. I remember arguing with people on the official lore board about it back when Skyrim came out. Can you at least block anonymous edits to the page? --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 22:54, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::::That was just a joke, there's no way to guess what reason the page was blanked for as none was given. Semi-protection, which the page now has, does exactly that, as well as blocking brand new accounts. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 23:04, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::Some people were seriously apoplectic about the Blades/Paarthurnax thing, certainly enough to vandalize a wiki. I just figured they'd found something else to be mad about by now. --[[User:MarginWalker|MarginWalker]] ([[User talk:MarginWalker|talk]]) 23:40, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

== Inappropriate Username ==

Wanted to bring to the attention of Admins an inappropriate username creation. [[Special:Log/newusers]] link for easier viewing. User name begins with "Tom". [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]]) 05:52, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

:Done, thanks. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:04, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
::Yeah, didnt wan't to say their name. [[User:Timeoin|Timeoin]] ([[User talk:Timeoin|talk]])

== Legends Card Data and Popup ==

People asked for this a while ago and I'm finally getting to working on it. This is just the first step of many so if you have suggestions/ideas on the existing implementation or where it goes from here don't hesitate to say something.

:* List of cards can be seen at [[Special:LegendsCardData]]. Hover over the card name for the popup and click the name for card details.
:* Linking to a specific card can be done using the custom <code><nowiki><legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard></nowiki></code> tag which looks like: <legendscard card='Adoring Fan'>Card Popup</legendscard>.
:* Card data has been initially populated with the saved MetaTemplate data on each card page and is not yet complete.
:* Do we need a "missing card" image or is it fine to just display nothing?
:* Are the card popup images a good size? I've resized them from the wiki images to load faster.
:* An add/edit card data feature is planned in order to let editors manage updating existing card data and adding new ones.
:* Similarly, a card search feature is planned.
:* A deck builder is possible but is a much larger piece of work to be considered in the farther future as time permits.

If you notice anything broken or not working as you think it should let me know as well...I haven't done much cross browser/platform testing yet. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 15:59, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:Oooh, this looks really nice Daveh! The size of the pop-up images are quite good, they aren't much different in-game. I am not sure if a "missing card" image is necessary. I think that the benefits are that it will make us sure the pop-up is not broken and it might give us some incentive to find the missing images faster. All in all, it looks great! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:19, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

:: A bunch more changes today:
:::* All card data should be up to date so far as I know it.
:::* Added the edit and create forms. Currently wiki admins have access to this but I can give specific editors access if there's any active Legends users. There's the "Create Card" in the upper right of the main card table and an "Edit Card" in the upper right of each card details page.
:::* Added a simple <legendscard card='unknown'>Unknown Card</legendscard>.
:: A reminder that I haven't played very much Legends myself so if there are obvious omissions in anything let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 01:30, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

:::I would like to get access to the Create/Edit option at the [[Special:LegendsCardData]] page. I am one of the most active Legends contributors and I am also the one adding the new cards from the upcoming expansion. So it would be easiest if I can add the card to both places at once. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 08:53, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

::::You should now have the ability to edit and create cards. If this doesn't work for you please let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 23:03, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
:::::It seems like the tag isn't properly processing template parameters. <code><nowiki>{{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code>, for example, produces: {{#define:1|Adoring Fan}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>.

:::::Ilaro also pointed out that the link should go to the card's wiki page rather than Special:LegendsCardData. I'm not sure if we'd have a need to link to the card data for any reason, so the link can probably just be changed directly, but you could perhaps have it as an option in case there is some such need in the future, if it's not too difficult. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:01, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::Both of these should now be fixed. Use the <code>usedatalink="1"</code> parameter if you would like to link to the card data page, otherwise it links to the card article. Note that if there are other custom uesp tags that need template parameter parsing let me know (like <nowiki><esoitemlink></nowiki>). -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:12, 21 November 2017 (UTC)

:::::::I found another problem: cards like {{Legends PU|Archer's Gambit}} or {{Legends PU|Crusader's Assault}} are showing the right pop-up, but they are linked to the [[Legends:Archer|Archer]]/[[Legends:Crusader|Crusader]] page instead of their card page. This also causes {{Legends PU|Alik'r Survivalist}} to link to the not existing "Alik" page instead of [[Legends:Alik'r Survivalist]].
:::::::Another problem are the Werewolf cards. Both {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Nord)}} and {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress (Werewolf)}} have a unknown card pop-up. These are, however, two separate 'entities' and should have their respective card image pop-up. On the other hand, {{Legends PU|Aela the Huntress}} shows the werewolf card, which should not be the case, because it is the link to the disambiguation page. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 09:16, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

::::::::Fixed both issues. For Aela it was due to me incorrectly importing just the one base card so I renamed that one and created the other one. Both should now have correct popups. The disambiguation popup is fixed however your local browser cache will likely still display the issue until you clear the cache or the image expires. Note that to fix both issues you just have to re-save any page that uses those cards. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:35, 24 November 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} The fixes seem to work! However, I should have been more clear about the werewolves. {{Card|Aela's Huntmate}}, {{Card|Circle Initiate}}, {{Card|Companion Harbinger}}, {{Card|Grim Shield-Brother}} and {{Card|Whiterun Protector (Werewolf)|Whiterun Protector}} suffer from the same problem as Aela. (that should be all of them) --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 10:57, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
:These should now be all fixed. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:10, 28 November 2017 (UTC)
::Just when you thought you were done.... Cards with disambiguations in the name face a special challenge, in that the disambiguation needs to be both present and absent. Look, for example, at <legendscard card="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>. As it stands now, it links to [[Legends:Skeleton]] even though it gets its data from [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I'm not sure how that magic works, but it should really link to [[Legends:Skeleton (card)]]. I can see three potential fixes for this:
::#Change the magic renaming to link to the same page it's getting the data from.
::#Change all the card names to use the exact same as the page names. If you go that route, though, you'd need to give us the ability to edit the name used in <code>card="''name''"</code>, as well as the wiki link itself, in [https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?edit=Skeleton the edit page] so we can update page names if they move around and fix any that don't currently follow this pattern.
::#Provide an actual <code>link</code> parameter. This is potentially more flexible, but personally, I think this would end up over-complicating a lot of things, both on your end and on the wiki end, so one of the first two is probably the better choice.
::– [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 19:08, 2 December 2017 (UTC)

:::Today I added all new obtainable cards to the Card Database. However, I ran into two problems. Cards with an apostrophe in the name (for example: [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Mecinar%27s+Will]] ) do not link properly to the right image file. Secondly, there are two new creature types in the expansion, but I could only choose types from a dropdown list and not add a new one. You are probably busy, but I like to point out that the problem from RH (one post above this) is also still present. See whenever you have time/feel like to fix it. Thanks in advance! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 21:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I've added basic card filters to the card table display. Let me know if you need/want more filters and what specifically. Added the 2 new creature types...if any list is missing something just let me know. Explicitly listing what items makes it much easier for me since I don't play Legends much and am not to familiar with it. Fixed the issue with single quotes in item names...let me know if you run into similar issues (just was due to various text escaping errors). Haven't fixed RobinHood's issue but will look at it and figure out the best course of action shortly. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 22:10, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} Regarding the card links for disambiguation pages I've decided to go with a 4th option at least for now. Part of the issue is that the card link code doesn't access the legends card database and I'd prefer to keep it that way. That means the first option won't work. The second option would work but it depends whether editors want to go that route (I can add name changing to the card edit code as needed). The third option would work fine but it really just pushes the problem onto the editor or makes the card link template that much more complicated.

So option I've implemented for now is to hardcode a list of all cards that have disambiguation pages and check in that list whenever a card link is parsed. So far I just have 4 cards in that list:
:* Bandit Ambush => card
:* Chaurus => creature
:* Skeleton => card
:* Swims-at-Night => card
If there are more cards needed in this list, either now or in future sets, just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 17:07, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:Great! Some small notes: Chaurus (creature) has been changed some time ago to Chaurus (card) for consistency and the original is now a redirect. I also have some issue with <code><nowiki>{{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard></nowiki></code> that it is still linking to the disambig page (see {{#local:1|Skeleton}}<legendscard card='{{{1}}}'>{{{1}}}</legendscard>), while <code><nowiki><legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard></nowiki></code> is not (see <legendscard name="Skeleton">Skeleton</legendscard>). At last, is there any way to remove cards from LegendsCardData? Because this one is now split up into two cards [[http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:LegendsCardData?card=Aela%27s+Huntmate]] (the Nord and the Werewolf version). Thanks in advance for the help! --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 18:12, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::Fixed the Chaurus card type for the disambiguation page, the MetaTemplate issue with disambiguation links and I've manually deleted the linked card. For now cards can only be deleted or renamed manually...no reason other than to limit the amount of data loss that could happen (can't just revert edits like with wiki pages). For now just let me know of any deletes/renames required and these features can be added in time if desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:19, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Image Undeletion ==

The image File:SkyrimEchmer.jpg was deleted on the 4th November, however, the [[General:Uutak Mythos|Uutak Mythos]] is and has been linking it since 2nd September. The log doesn't say why it was deleted, so can someone look, and if possible, restore the image if it isn't too late, or if the reason it was deleted would see it deleted again (eg duplication), remove the links here and on that page. My apologies if it was me who marked it for deletion. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:49, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

:You listed it for speedy deletion with the reason "duplicate file, other one is in the naming style of similar images" and AKB deleted it. I thought there was a way to view deleted images, but if there is, I can't find it, so I've restored the image for the time being. If you can find what it's a duplicate of, re-link it to the correct place and we can re-delete this one. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 00:24, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

::Thanks. The duplicate image was autolinked from the file page, and has now been replaced on the Uutak Mythos page. I've removed the link above so it's clear to redelete. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:41, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

:::Done. And thanks for looking into that. I was just on my way out to dinner, so I didn't have a lot of time. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 06:39, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

== UESP Fan Gift (2018 Calendar) ==

The [http://esofiles.uesp.net/misc/UESP2018Calendar-Final-LoRes.pdf calendar] has been finished and sent off for printing so we can get started on figuring out who the lucky people are that get one. I've ordered 250 calendars so if we distribute them roughly the same as the map last year I shouldn't have any left over at the end. Like last year distribution will be grouped into a few categories:

:* Anyone who submitted an image used in the calendar (12 people).
:* All admins/mods/guild leaders of UESP (if you aren't sure if this includes you just [mailto:dave@uesp.net ask me]).
:* Random draw for everyone is open at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] and a number of winners will be drawn on Dec 15th (so I can start mailing them before Christmas).
:* Any wiki editor in the 2017 year can submit their name at [https://goo.gl/forms/SDWLbhY1cXjlRhrQ2 Random Draw for UESP 2018 Calendar] for a different random draw on Dec 15th for just wiki editors.
:* Any other contest that might be run by our forums, social media sites, or ESO guilds. If you running a content let me know and we can figure out how many calendars we can reserve for you.
:* Special people in the Elder Scrolls universe (Bethesda, Zenimax Online, fan sites, etc...). [mailto:dave@uesp.net Let me know] if you have a suggestion here!

Calendar winners can use the [https://goo.gl/forms/xZg2kcQa0pgh6nVb2 Mailing Address Collection Form (2018 Calendar)] to submit their address so I can mail the calendar to them.

I also still have about 100 maps from last year I can include for people as desired. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:23, 30 November 2017 (UTC)
::If you can swing it, I would love to get another copy of the map - mine got damaged when I moved between states. --[[User:SCarverOrne|SCarverOrne]] ([[User talk:SCarverOrne|talk]]) 03:29, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

:At least the Morning Star, Sun's Dawn, First Seed, and Rain's Hand images were all submitted by me, but I do not need 4 calendars... xD -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:09, 1 December 2017 (UTC)
::As an idea for the last point, maybe the creators of the most popular mods/addons? Like Arthmoor or the creator of FTC? [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 15:32, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

:::I received the calendars last Friday and they look great! I'm mailing out the first batch of 22 calendars today/tomorrow to everyone who has filled out the mailing address form so far. Hopefully at least some of you will get them by Christmas! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:52, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
::::Being just next door in Ottawa, I got mine today and it looks fantastic! – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 01:57, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

{{od}} I've performed the random draw just now with the 757 unique e-mails submitted from the form. 36 calendars went to wiki users and 25 went to random users. Everyone has been notified by e-mail to submit their mailing address on the collection form. After all calendars have been claimed from contests sometime in January I'll do another random draw to get rid of any left over calendars. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 18:15, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

:Will send out another 70 or so calendars this afternoon and that will likely be the last batch shipped out before the New Year. An update on what charities we've supported this year (it's hard to choose as there's so many good organizations to give to). I've donated $750 to [https://www.charitywater.org Charity Water] and through [http://childsplaycharity.org/ Child's Play] I've purchased $300 worth of toys for The Hospital for Sick Children here in Toronto. Note that if anyone is interested in running charitable events through Child's Play or a similar organization anytime just let me know! -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 16:39, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

== Skyrim Creation Club Purchases ==
Since Creation Club mods are "official" content (or close enough) the UESP's offer to purchase games for admins and active editors applies to them was well. At a minimum we should make sure that at least one admin/editor has a copy of each CC mod to make sure we can add/test content for the wiki. So far only Legoless has asked and received money for CC purchases and I don't know which mods he has purchased.

If you are an admin or ''active'' editor and would like to be reiumbursed for CC purchases just [mailto:dave@uesp.net let me know]. Usually I just send money via Paypal unless there is a way to gift CC credits somehow. People how have CC mods should also post here so we know which content we have and what we might not. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 20:42, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

:I'd be interested. I've dabbled with them but only taken the ones that were free on offer. If I decide to take up your offer I'll email you, as anyone should if they wish to keep anonymous. Also, should I do it, I will purchase all currently available ones that I haven't got. The numbers certainly don't appear to be high as there has been little activity on documenting them, so it would be good to know what creations everyone purchases. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 21:58, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::I'm also interested. I currently have Survival Mode, Arcane Accessories, Dwarven Armored Mudcrab, and Stendarr's Hammer (which I purchased with initial credits). Creation Club is easy content to document, so I'll certainly help out with those pages. —[[User:Dillonn241|Dillonn241]] ([[User talk:Dillonn241|talk]]) 22:12, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

::: I have access to all CC mods to date and can verify as needed. Lots of information to add too, but it seems Fullerton may beat me to it! —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 01:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

::::I now own all current CC content. I'm not playing Skyrim at the moment but I can now pop in and check/verify stuff if anyone needs. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:09, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== Ebony blade victims ==

I recently found out that the randomly encountered Stray dogs are valid targets for the Ebony blade which also uniquely respawn. I added the information to the [[Skyrim:Ebony_Blade_Victims|Ebony blade victims]] page but my edit was [[Skyrim_talk:Ebony_Blade_Victims#Respawning_blade_targets|revoked in good faith by another editor]] for not meeting the criteria. As far as I can tell there was no mention of such a unlimited (they respawn) target for the quest that also means no other named NPCs need to be disabled. What is the policy for adding the information to that page and how, if possible, can I rephrase or change the information so that it would meet the criteria on that page? With best regards, --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 20:06, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

:The best place to ask this is on the talk page of the article. Complaining to the admins because your edits were reverted and then subsequently explained is not how you go about understanding an article and its purpose. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 20:11, 13 December 2017 (UTC)

::SkyHiRider, you might be better-advised to take it to the article's [[Skyrim talk:Ebony Blade Victims|talk page]], which more people will be watching and so will be a better place to expect a reply. The reason that the administrator noticeboard isn't the right place for this is because the AN's purpose is for Administrator-only actions, but the mistake was made due to being unaware so it's understandable and completely fine as long as the mistake isn't repeated. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 10:52, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

::: Understood, will keep it to the article talk page. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 23:48, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

== Mobile ads issue ==

A couple times the past week, I've hit some kind of ad that redirects me to a giveaway/scam site. Example: [https://imgur.com/kvsLmWm]. Both the times it happened, I was on Safari for iOS, refreshing the Recent Changes page. --[[User:FioFioFio|FioFioFio]] ([[User talk:FioFioFio|talk]]) 15:43, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

: A user mentions having a similar problem on [http://forums.uesp.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=40436 this forum post] and manages to provide a link to the offending webpage. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:51, 23 December 2017 (UTC)

== De-Rank Request: Fullerton ==

In light of Fullerton's recent actions on both our Discord server and another one, the Discord staff are suggesting a removal of his Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki. There is precedent on both the wiki and forum for dealing with a user's actions from a different part of the UESP or from offsite. As site staff in the form of patroller and blocker, he is representing the wiki elsewhere, and his recent behavior shows a lack of the type of responsibility needed to have these roles here.
* He was previously staff on Discord due to us initially adding everyone who has roles elsewhere as UESP staff. He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users.
* He has behaved in a somewhat inappropriate matter off and on, which has been addressed in a less-formal manner of staff talking to him or posting a reminder, such as racist comments, language such as the use of "retarded"/"mong", and other behavior which we do not consider okay there even as a joke. Earlier this week, on Tuesday, he was kicked from the server for spamming a bot command that was previously disabled (accidentally reenabled when the bot creator was working on it), being told to stop, and then moving the spam to our main channel (#general) instead, right around the time a prominent member of the ESO community joined.
* Yesterday, on another server (one with many banned members who have something of an anti-UESP sentiment), he [https://imgur.com/tK0668E doxxed Legoless (name hidden)] by changing his username there to his actual real name, and did it in a racist manner, as Legoless is Irish. At this point, we gave him a role on our server that would remove access to all channels to him except the one called "#dungeon", which is used as a holding area while staff discuss what action to take. He claimed to not know it was Legoless's real name, but we found evidence to the contrary; two instances of him using Lego's first or last name on October 22 and November 13.
* This morning, he left our server and rejoined to remove that role (essentially evading a soft ban), [https://imgur.com/feFK62z swearing at the moderation], and posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created).
Fullerton's editing on the wiki has been good, but we feel that with behavior like this it is not appropriate that he hold any type of staff role on the UESP. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:11, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

:Why are the Discord staff suggesting a removal of my patroller and blocker roles on-wiki? I do recall that recently there was an attempt to demarcate between Discord and on-wiki staves, and so it puzzles me to see that they're being treated as a single entity.
:If you will recall, these were demarcated because it placed people with insufficient experience in online chatrooms as moderators to have wikistaff become Discord staff, and I have been acting under the impression that one does not necessarily equal the other. I fully agree with my previous removal from Discord staff because quite frankly, my position as wiki staff should not in any way make me a staff member on the UESP Discord server. These distinctions are because Discord and the wiki are extremely different platforms. As a result, I did not feel that I had to act in my role as a wiki patroller when idly chatting in the UESP discord server and various other Discord servers, as the case may be. Now, the reason I failed to represent a wiki patroller in a Discord staff capacity is 'because' of this discrepancy, as I was thrust into a position of which I held no understanding. However, the patroller role on-wiki is something I signed onto fully aware of, and so there is far less possibility that I will misunderstand and forgo the duties which the role has assigned to me on here. As I said, they are different platforms and I signed on to be a Wiki patroller and fulfill the task, while I just so happened to be thrust into a position on the Discord pertaining to representing the wiki.
:Especially prominent in the demarcation between UESP and the Discord Server belonging to it is the Discord Server's recent promotion of "Tea Party Moderators", who were chosen simply for being fit for the task.
:In the past (October 31st), I attempted to have the patroller role removed from my Discord account by leaving the server. However, it was simply re-added to my account because I expressed an ambivalence towards the role. I did not feel I was bound to remain in the role, and came only to see it as a different-colored nametag on the Discord server - hence I requested the colors when I rejoined the server from my (acknowledged to be unjust) kick.
:Additionally, there's no reason for Discord conflicts to suddenly occur on-wiki-this directly defies the reason given for the deletion [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans]], which was that there is no need for the Discord to be that much on the wiki.
:I'd like to conclude by saying that this is an extension of the inconsistency in moderation styles on the UESP discord that has now spilled over onto the wiki, and that I doubt that allowing the confusion to continue will clear up any of the discrepancies on the UESP Discord server.
:—[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 04:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)
::(This response is just from me and not the Discord staff as a whole.) Again, part of the reason we are suggesting it here is that as patroller and blocker you are still site staff - not moderating ''that'' part of it doesn't change the roles you do have - and your actions therefore still represent the UESP. The demarcation of the site has nothing to do with it (in fact we've been treating the UESP ''less'' as separate communities and more of a single community ever since the Discord was founded, even if not everyone manages every aspect of it.)
::(As an aside, the reason the Discord Bans page on the wiki was deleted was because we felt that the list had become incentive for people to try to behave badly in order to get banned and get their name on it, not because we felt the Discord and wiki should be kept separate. The reason you had the Blocker/Patroller roles on the Discord was to help you fulfill your duties on the wiki: to have access to the Patrolling channel to discuss edits a patroller isn't certain about, and for people to be able to notify you to block a vandal when needed (which is, in a way, still acting as site staff). You [https://imgur.com/ZxRTafv were aware] that that was the purpose of the role, and in fact after you left in October and it missed being re-added, you yourself eventually [https://imgur.com/E3Cgmnn pointed out] that you were missing it so that it could be added and you could put it to that use.)
::But anyway, back to the topic at hand and the main part of my response: The other part of why we're suggesting it is because in the past we have taken action on parts of the UESP for behavior on a different part (and even offsite) if the behavior was severe enough, which I personally would vote is the case here: sharing another user's personal information without their consent is very serious, even without the rest of it. And regardless whether viewing you as a staff member or not, the examples I listed in the first post show poor judgement at best and some of them malicious behavior at worst (e.g. re-joining the server to shake off the dungeon role and swearing at the mods and posting the dungeon content), which is enough to raise concern about whether you are responsible enough for these roles. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 08:58, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Instead of trying to dance around this, I'm just gonna say this. What you did could have put Legoless's personal safety at risk. Which raises the question, do you understand what doxing is, and why it is dangerous? Please answer if you understand what you did. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 09:16, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::From my persepctive, doxxing a member of staff is not the way anyone should behave, let alone another member of staff. Furthermore, your actions on Discord of evading the soft ban by leaving and rejoining the server to leave the #dungeon channel, and then posting the content of the dungeon in a public channel, shows that you do not respect our moderation processes. Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 12:43, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::There are so many side issues that are brought up by this discussion, it's hard to know where to start. On the one hand, I'm concerned about the cross-over of platforms. There's a certain level of behaviour that I would expect from staff, regardless of which UESP platform they're on, and to an extent, even on other sites. But on the other hand, there are also times when people feel the need to let loose. I've certainly said and done things on channels/servers/sites where I wasn't staff that I wouldn't do here, where I am.

:::::Doxxing someone (anyone! staff or not) is a serious charge, and one that might well warrant cross-platform discipline. That said, it really depends on how much of an issue it actually is for Legoless. I'd like to hear from him on that one. I'd also suggest that people consider the fact that some of us are more open about our real names, while others aren't, and it's very easy to forget who's who. A great many people know my real name, for instance, and it's not too terribly difficult to find out if you don't yet. A few clicks should bring you right to it. :) So, was Fullerton acting maliciously and deliberately sharing Legoless' real name? If so, then this is an easy decision, and I'd say yes, he should have rights removed here, since that type of behaviour is unacceptable for any staff member in any and every part of UESP. That becomes a bit more grey, however, if he was acting more out of negligence and just not thinking of the fact that only certain people know Legoless' real name, or even out of ignorance, not realizing that most people don't know it. As a gay man, I completely understand the latter. I've accidentally been outed to people in the past, and I have once accidentally outed someone else in complete ignorance, thinking that everyone knew. It sucks, but sometimes these things happen.

:::::As for the racism issue, that one's a bit more confusing. After all, Legoless' real name includes what is sometimes considered a racist (or at least ethnist) component to it, but is also just a normal name too, so unless there was something more there, I'm not sure that's necessarily racist on its own. Context, however, could make a big difference here, though I appreciate that it may be difficult to share that without inherently outing Legoless all over again!

:::::I think this brings up some larger issues, though, in that there has been a recent tendency to take things cross-platform, and I'm not sure it's always warranted. It strikes me that, to some extent, there have been vendettas going on from certain staff members against other users and an excessive adherence to rules. The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right. That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning. As popular as our Discord channel is, I think to an extent it has also become dysfunctional, and I have a tremendous concern that this cross-platform disciplinary action just continues that trend. TBH, when baratron recently suggested on my talk page that I return to the Discord channel, my immediate reaction was "Hell no!", though I worded it a bit more diplomatically there. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 18:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::I just did some research, and in a quick Google, I was able to find pages that linked Legoless to his real name. In my own inbox, I was able to find '''Legoless himself''' using the variant of his name that is presented as being racist. So, I think the concerns on that front are a lot less than they might seem.

::::::That said, I think evading a soft ban was inappropriate behaviour, but I can also see where locking someone away in a dungeon (quite literally in this case) gives them no chance to defend themselves publicly, and leaves them unaware of any public or admin-only discussion concerning them, where they should have the opportunity to raise a defence. Yes, they can do so afterwards, but from my experience, by that point, opinions have already largely been formed by the administrators who took an interest. I don't think a dungeon room is at all an appropriate way to handle discipline. All the worse that it's actually called that without seeing the stigma it creates. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:24, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::: @RobinHood: You may have missed a nuance of what Fullerton did. Let's say Legoless's name is Patrick Murphy (it isn't). Fullerton didn't just change Legoless's public name on the other server to "Paddy Murphy" (where "Paddy" is both a common Irish first name and also a derogatory term used for Irish people) - he changed it to "Paddy O'Murphy" - adding an extra O' as if Legoless's surname ''isn't Irish enough''.

::::::: I am not sure what you mean by "''The fact that there are now two offshoots of the Discord channel for people who have either left or been banned from it is concerning in its own right.''" I'm only aware of TJ's Discord server, which has plenty of current members. It's a place for people to "shitpost" (am I allowed to say that on the wiki?), which is posting lots of meme images and talking all in emojis - the sort of behaviour that we frown upon on the main UESP Discord server. This isn't necessarily '''bad''' behaviour, it just does not convey the professional image that we want on the UESP Discord, in case a Bethesda or Zenimax employee shows up. (Which they do - we have two currently that we know of.)

::::::: We're also uncertain about "''That one of them contains three current or ex-patrollers and a current admin is even more concerning''". We're not sure of any current or ex-Patrollers who use TJ's server other than Fullerton and Legoless. Again, there is nothing sinister in them going to that site. Different Discord servers have different rules, and it doesn't mean that wiki staff are involved in some sort of plot against UESP because they happen to hang out there. Some people are on literally 50+ Discord servers at a time - I don't know how they keep up, I'm on 4 of which 2 are busy and multi-channeled, and the other 2 get on average of one message a day. But a lot of younger people apparently have the time and energy for it, *shrug*.

::::::: I take your point about the #dungeon channel, but it '''is intended''' for people to defend themselves. It's where they get to explain to the staff why they did whatever they did, and apologise if necessary. No one other than staff sees who is in there - other members do not even see the channel, and as far as they know, the user is simply offline. I don't agree that opinions have ''necessarily'' already been formed by the administrators who took an interest - sometimes they have, sometimes they haven't. Sometimes, the whole purpose of putting a person into that channel is to find out the details of an incident, rather than to punish people. The channel history is always wiped after use. Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business. I agree that #dungeon is a bad name.

::::::: I understand that Fullerton was frustrated because he was "left in the dungeon for 6 hours", but this was an unfortunate side-effect of timezones. I went to bed at 6 am on Saturday morning due to staying up, dealing with this situation. For many people in the US, it was already 1 am and not everyone has as chaotic a sleep schedule as I do. I'm not sure how anything could have been dealt with any quicker. Also, Fullerton himself told us that he would be away from his computer for the day, which also gave an impression that it was not urgent enough for '''everyone''' to have to stay up way past their bedtimes. I do regret that this was apparently not the case. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:40, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: I did catch the O'. To me, that was not tremendously relevant, but maybe that's an Aspie thing. I just don't attach the same level of importance to these sorts of things as some do. Since Legoless himself has said it was ancillary to the doxxing itself, I see it as a moot point in any event.

:::::::: My understanding of the purpose of TJ's channel may have been off, as I've never been there and have only heard bits and pieces about it. As far as the other server, I won't say too much for privacy reasons, but suffice it to say that I'm not the only person who found our Discord server sufficiently problematic as to either leave it or at least not visit often. A few of us happen to have found each other in what is otherwise an unrelated server, and on rare occasions, we have discussed what we see as some of the problems. "Offshoot" was not the best term, but I couldn't find another one readily that encompassed both TJ's server (which I understand has at least a few users who were banned from UESP's Discord) as well as the other one.

:::::::: As for the dungeon, as you've acknowledged, the name itself is problematic and adds bias to any discussion, as it automatically implies guilt. I think a better method would be to take such discussions to an ad-hoc private channels and ask the user to refrain from using the channels (which leaves you a certain leeway to make it an even softer ban, allowing use of certain channels if appropriate), or just take it to a group PM and kick/ban them from the Discord server, if necessary. Perhaps these are a bit more of a nuisance, but they're not as inherently biased. At the very least, a better name could be found. I get that it was meant as humorous, but I think it probably doesn't seem quite as funny to someone who finds themselves there.

:::::::: I wasn't really aware of the timing issue of Fullerton being left in the room for 6 hours, but as you say, even if it was frustrating, that's completely understandable, given that our users are from around the world. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:10, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::: This conversation's moving a bit quickly for me to get a response in, and most of my points have been covered by various users, but I'll just add that Fullerton actually [https://imgur.com/KECYIgR admitted] that his intention with that particular name change was to be racist.
::::::::: I agree that perhaps a better name can be found; it was indeed chosen to be humorous, but I understand your point about the implications the name might have. It certainly isn't our intent to imply that we've already formed opinions: as bara said, it's a place for the mods and the user to come to an understanding; we've given users another chance or found alternate solutions based on our discussions with them there, and it's not always used in cases of disciplinary action either. Even yesterday it was used voluntarily as a private place for a user who wanted to talk to the moderators. While I can understand the frustration of remaining there for hours, the reason we created it is to have time to let all moderators give input, discuss things thoroughly, and not make snap judgements. ~ [[User:Alarra|Alarra]] ([[User_talk:Alarra|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Alarra|contribs]]) 22:22, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::::: That screen-cap certainly provides a context I didn't have before. Thank you. As far as forming opinions in advance, that's not just limited to Discord, I've seen it happen in various staff discussions, and I'm as guilty of doing it as the next person. There are often two (or more) discussions on any given issue of misbehaviour, one that includes the affected user and one that doesn't. I think too often, the one that doesn't involve the user tends to jump ahead of the one that does, often without all the facts, and it leads to inappropriate conclusions. That's my main concern here. Usually by the time it's decided that someone belongs in the dungeon (or whatever you end up calling it), there's already been a discussion behind the scenes as to whether the user should be pulled in there. As I recall, putting them in there also removes them from all other channels, does it not? Assuming I'm right, that also adds a presumption of guilt, providing a punishment before a discussion with the user has even happened. I'd rather see the user involved first, before any decisions are made (not counting egregious behaviour, of course, where immediate actions are entirely appropriate). This is probably getting off-topic, however, as it's far more generalized of a concern than this specific instance. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 22:54, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::::: Technically yes, there is a presumption of guilt when putting someone in the dungeon. That's why it exists and why it is named what it is – it is a punishment, a soft ban from the server, while the staff discuss privately, and also discuss with the person involved, whether their actions require a full ban. The alternative is that they get banned from the server straight away, and then the only way to contact them is via private messages, and then it is much more difficult to involve all the staff. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 23:28, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}This isn't about Discord staff versus website staff - this is about a person, who has been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.

UESP is not a random TES discord or Facebook group, it is the single oldest website dedicated to the series, and one of the most respected institutions in the fandom. You, as a representative of said website, are obligated to behave in a manner becoming of its mission and position in the community. Doxxing, using racist language, and making ableist remarks (not to mention defying a soft ban, talking publicly about private conversations, and repeatedly refusing to change aforementioned behaviours) is NOT OK for any regular member of a community, and it is especially not ok for someone that is supposed to represent the very best and most trustworthy of a community (i.e. the staff).

When you use ableist or racist language, you're not just making yourself look bad, you're making UESP look bad. You're making people uncomfortable and less willing to contribute to the website and community, potentially driving away valuable contributors. You're eroding peoples' trust in the website and its staff. You're encouraging bad behavior from members and making moderation more difficult, because if staff can act like assholes, why can't everyone?

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. Your recent behaviour has been the opposite of that. [[User:Lady Nerevar|Lady Nerevar]] ([[User talk:Lady Nerevar|talk]]) 20:36, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I'm certainly not okay with my name being made public knowledge without my consent, which is the reason I brought this to the attention of staff to begin with. The fact that it was a racist version of my name is ancillary to the point as far as I'm concerned, and the specifics of that do not need to be addressed publicly.

: This is not a discussion of the demarcation between Discord and the wiki, and I don't find Fullerton's response above to be at all sufficient or even relevant. This discussion is about his continued rights on the wiki and therefore needs to be had on-wiki. Patroller and Blocker are trusted roles, and Fullerton broke that trust. That isn't the kind of behaviour I would expect from staff, regardless of whether it was off-site or not. In my view, the fact that it was done in a third party chatroom frequented by users who are outright hostile towards myself and UESP staff actually makes it worse. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

:: I apologize if I took the discussion a bit off-topic, but I do see the discontent among some users, myself among them, with the way the Discord channel is run as being at least somewhat relevant to this discussion. How it's run has a direct impact on how people behave, and more importantly, how they misbehave. That probably should be a separate discussion, however, if it needs to be had at all. At this point, I'm not sure I see much of a point. I agree with the above two posters that, wherever they are, staff on the wiki should try to behave appropriately when discussing the wiki. It's a fine line to draw for me, though, because people also need a place to vent.

:: What ''is'' important to me here is Legoless' comments. If he's not okay with his online name being linked to his real name publicly, then I'm not okay with it either. Even if the information is out there on the web, publicly presenting it is taking that a step further. Doing so in a room that's hostile towards him does indeed make it worse. Even if someone's venting, there's a time and a place for it, and a way to do it. That was not it.

:: So, while I think there are deeper issues, looking at this request in isolation, I'm not opposed to it. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 21:25, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

::: I'm just really sad by the whole situation. @Fullerton, I feel as though 90% of the interactions I've had with you over the past year have been positive. Maybe 9% have been frivolous, and 1% annoying or rude enough that I've had to pull you up on the behaviour. I'm not familiar with New Zealand culture and it's possible that it's much more casually racist than the British culture I'm familiar with. Then again, it could also be that you're young and suffering from a lot of peer pressure from friends who dare you to say something dodgy.

::: But look - it's NOT okay to post someone's real name online without their consent. I know you go by your actual legal name online, and that's your choice to do so - but it's also other people's choices to '''not''' do so. Nor is it okay to be casually racist towards other people who aren't your close friends. (I'd argue that it isn't okay to be casually racist at all, but I guess there is some banter between friends which sounds awful to other people listening yet is meant in a friendly way.)

::: I actually '''don't''' believe you should lose your Patroller and Blocker roles on the wiki due to your behaviour on Discord, because your work on the wiki has been good. Apparently you have a few annoying editing quirks, but I bet everyone does until they've been here for many years. But you must understand - if you can't be trusted not to reveal someone's personal information on Discord, how do we know we can trust you not to deface wiki pages because you're angry? When you have the Patroller and Blocker roles, you have '''a lot''' more power to damage the wiki. UESP has been going for 22 years. As Lady N said, Bethesda use it to look up Lore they have forgotten, Zenimax use it to get ideas for Arena and Redguard places to revisit in ESO, and we know for a fact that Dire Wolf use it for reference from little oddities which have popped up in Legends. ''The wiki is more important than one person.''

::: I'm sorry that it's come to this. You're intelligent and energetic, and there's no reason on Earth for you to have randomly attacked a wiki admin "for the lols". You could be using that intelligence and energy for good. I hope that you will continue to work on the wiki, so that over time people will feel able to trust you again. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 21:59, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

===Edit Break 1===
I'm gonna ask any conversation about the running of the Discord server, or whether or not there is a precedent for cross-site or even off-site behavior is relevant to your standing on the wiki be shelved. The first is off topic, and the first one has a clear precedent from past incidents. If you would like to make suggestions for the running of the Discord, or the formalization or removal of the existing precedent relating to cross-site and off-site activity, please start a separate topic either here or on CP.

As far as for the actual issue, I would like for Fullerton to respond to the topic. Particularly, I would like for him to confirm that he understands what doxing is, and why it spawned this conversation. Additionally, I'd like for him to be able to provide a response in relation to this issue, before any decision is made relating to it. --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 03:06, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:As was stated, his real name has come up once or thrice and that led me to believe that he was alright with it being used. Quite honestly, I'm not entirely sure I understand what you mean by doxxing. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 05:04, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::Doxxing's a relatively new term, probably a few years old. It means deliberately/maliciously releasing someone's personal information (e.g., name, address, or phone number) when it wasn't generally known. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 05:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::Robinhood is correct. With that said, if that is true why didn't you just say that before, instead of claiming ignorance to what his name was? Additionally, do you want to comment about the rest of your actions? --[[User:Alpha Kenny Buddy|AKB]] [[User_talk:Alpha_Kenny_Buddy|Talk]] [[Special:Contributions/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Cont]] [[Special:Emailuser/Alpha Kenny Buddy|Mail]] 07:00, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I didn't mention it because I assume it wouldn't help my case, that "ignorance is no excuse" would be invoked. In regards to my actions on the Discord server, attempting to evade the dungeon was untenable. However, I would like to say that I am '''not''' an ableist, and I object to being called one. —[[User:Fullerton|Fullerton]] ﴾[[User talk:Fullerton|talk]]﴿ 08:32, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::But now it seems/looks like you have been lying to us. How can we still trust your word then? --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::As someone that is in the aforementioned Discord server (which isn't as anti-UESP as portrayed and currently has only <s>one</s> two users who were banned from the UESP Discord server) and saw the immediate aftermath of Fullerton's actions, I will vouch for Fullerton in saying that he seemed genuinely surprised that the nickname he had set for Legoless was his actual name, so, while what could be considered as doxxing occurred, I do believe that it was completely unintentional on Fullerton's part, it might have been a lapse of memory and the specific name being subconsciously picked without conscious awareness that it was actually related to Legoless, but in any case, the intention was pretty clearly not malicious from everything I saw.

::::::Additionally, reading this discussion, it feels like Fullerton has been driven into a corner by you people, being forced to admit to things that don't necessarily correlate to the actual course of events, so either he is a masterful actor and played us all at TJ's server (which I highly doubt), or he's just bending over due to the pressure to try to find the easiest way out (this last paragraph being mostly directed at Ilaro's previous comment). [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 15:34, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::I do not agree at all. If anything, he did put himself into the corner, and depending on what he told you, playing the victim. We gave him more than enough time to explain himself and apologizing without any pressure, but he felt the need to insult the staff and evading the soft ban instead (see the first two links Alarra posted). I am mostly disappointed that he did not even apologize for the doxing (or the racism, which he clearly admitted was the intention). --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 17:35, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::: With all due respect, Brynjar, Fullerton lied to you and your friends in the other server. Legoless's real-life surname is uncommon - not only have I literally never heard it before, but it also doesn't appear in the Top 100 Irish surnames lists that I've found online (one from the 1890s, the other from the 1990s). In order to get it correct, Fullerton would have had to know it.

:::::::: If instead of lying after the event and trying to involve all of you in the lie, Fullerton had simply turned around and said, "I'm sorry, it was a joke, I didn't realise Legoless didn't want his real name revealed" we wouldn't be here now. Refusing to publicly acknowledge that he's made a mistake is the exact thing that is making us question Fullerton's judgement, and whether he can be trusted with important wiki permissions. [[User:Baratron|baratron]] ([[User talk:Baratron|talk]]) 19:58, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}} Let's all try to keep in mind that Fullerton is fifteen years old and on the autism spectrum. While it's not impossible, those don't generally go hand-in-hand with being a master manipulator. From what I've seen, he's doing his best to explain his actions but, being that age and not having a full comprehension of social interaction, he's not doing it in a way that neurotypical people would expect and want. And yeah, maybe like any teenager, he knows he's screwed up and just wants to figure out a way that'll get this over with the fastest, as opposed to something more appropriate, so he can move on and pretend this never happened. Being on the autism spectrum myself, I see quite clearly here the same types of mistakes I would have made at his age: not considering the effects of my actions on others and saying whatever was needed to make a problem go away, rather than having to interact with people in a negative way. That's autism!

The fact that he doesn't know how to respond in this situation may well be reason to go forward with the initial proposal, but let's also look at this from his perspective. How would you all have reacted when you were fifteen, caught doing something wrong, and everyone around you was older than you and yelling at you? It's not a fun position to be in. I'm not saying that should affect this decision, but it does give some important insight into Fullerton's responses to this conversation, I think.

Also, baratron raised an interesting point before the edit break. Does this mistake prevent him from patrolling or blocking in a responsible manner? The answer to that is clearly no from a purely logistical point of view. But we do have to consider the social and interpersonal ramifications of Fullerton's actions. Personally, I'm not convinced that removing him as a patroller and blocker will have any beneficial effect on the wiki, and I tend to think that Discord remedies should be sufficient for Discord problems in most cases. But, as I said above, I'm not opposed to the removal of rights, either. The simple fact is, an administrator here was affected because Fullerton didn't think his actions through, which is not really a desirable quality in someone with elevated rights. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:11, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

:All right, I wasn't going to post, as I came back to the wiki/Discord right as this all happened and didn't see the build up to this (the "small" infractions e.g. the ableism), but I need to say something. Fullerton, your actions were inexcusable. It's not just the doxxing, or the admitted racism that went along with it. Your behavior has been deteriorating for a while. Even before I took my wikibreak, I had noticed that you seemed increasingly abrasive. And abrasive is not a good quality in a representative of the UESP. I was willing to overlook it, because you are young yet and have room to grow, but I cannot in good conscience allow this to continue. Even though I'm on the autism spectrum myself, I know to watch my words regarding other members of my community. Reclaiming words for yourself is one thing, but referring to ''other people'' that way without their knowledge or consent is, indeed, ableist. Just from that, I would have pushed for a time-out. As for the doxxing, I can't speak to the racism, but... Fullerton, you understand that doxxing is a ''violation'', right?

:I believe what this boils down to is consent, and a lack of respect for it. And that's a basic skill that nothing but time and experience can teach you, if ever. Add to that your defense to this incident, which has been... lacking at best, and I must advocate for demotion. Which is a shame, but a necessary one. —[[User:Likelolwhat|likelolwhat]] [[User talk:Likelolwhat|''talk lulzy to me'']] 20:16, 8 January 2018 (UTC)

{{Consensus|Removal of Rights|2=Alright, I think we've piled on enough. I'm calling this one now before it goes any further. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 20:19, 8 January 2018 (UTC)}}

== OB:Efficient Leveling ==

[[OB:Efficient Leveling|Efficient Leveling]] may require protection to keep some utter nonsense off it. I've attempted to end it by contacting the user directly, but given that the user has had over a week to do the basic maths involved in discovering why it should not be on the page (5+5+5 does not equal 5+3+3), I hold no hope that they will come to understand that their edit should not remain on the page and will attempt to replace it again. I'm already on my third revert of the edit, and have no wish to get punished for keeping nonsense off a page. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 00:29, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

: I've fully protected it for a period of 2 weeks. This shouldn't be a problem considering the low levels of editing attention that page has received in recent years, but if it needs to be lifted before then just let an admin know. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:41, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

== ESO Dragon Bones PTS Update ==

The usual update for another content release on the ESO PTS.

:* uespLog Addon -- Turn custom stats off (''/uespcustomstat off'') to stop a bug in the custom stat display otherwise you'll get error messages in most UI screens.
:* [http://esofiles.uesp.net/update-17pts/ Files Uploaded] -- In progress...
:* Maps --
:* [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewSkills.php?version=17pts Skills] -- Done!
:* Skill Cooefficients --
:* CPs -- [http://esolog.uesp.net/viewCps.php?version=17pts Done!]
:* Items -- Done!
:* Icons --
:* Collectibles -- Updated to fix an issue with missing items from Live.

-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] [[User_talk:Daveh|(talk)]] 19:53, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

== UESP's Discord Server ==

As many of you no doubt noticed, I've recently referred to UESP's Discord chat as "dysfunctional". As the person on the wiki with the most rights next to Dave (out of the active users, at any rate), I am at all times aware that it's my duty to attempt to be professional and fair-minded in all things UESP related, so that is not a statement I make lightly. Administrators don't speak against administrators, generally, and when they do, it should be noted. That nobody chose to ask me why I felt so strongly is concerning. That nobody thought to ask why ''four different current- or ex-staff members'' are avoiding UESP's Discord is downright alarming, and only furthers my conviction that the chat is, indeed, dysfunctional. My concerns about how it's run are numerous, so I'll try to break them down into meaningful groups.
* '''Foundership''': Currently, AKB holds supreme rights on the Discord server and can be challenged by no one, not even Dave. During my time on the server, I saw numerous examples of questionable behaviour on his part, including lying, manipulating, interfering in matters outside our server, and outright paranoia that another administrator was out to get him, simply for calling him on some of his behaviours. While those incidents are long gone and not worth getting into at this point, particularly since I have no way of bringing forth evidence at the moment, I would call for AKB to hand over foundership to Dave, so that he is simply one admin among many, and that the server is ultimately managed by UESP's owner, as I feel it always should have been.
* '''Staff''': Many of the current Discord staff come from elected staff in other parts of the wiki. This made sense in the beginning. However, since then, many unelected staff have been added. This includes people like guild leaders, people who have notable roles in the Elder Scrolls universe, and people who are useful to have as staff in other ways. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but the concern is that nobody had any say in who was brought on as staff, apart from existing staff (if even that). Even if unintentional, this can lead to clique behaviour, since only those who tend to agree with existing staff will be invited to become future staff. There needs to be a facility for the general members of the Discord to suggest/elect new moderators and, in the worst case scenario, to propose demotion.
* '''Accountability/Transparency''': Continuing on from that last, far ''far'' too many discussions on the Discord take place in an echo chamber. Decisions are frequently made by staff members without ever discussing them with the public. When members complain, they then sound like trouble-makers. If the complaints escalate, they may even come to ''be'' trouble-makers, simply out of frustration. This needs to change. Discussions of any long-term import to the server should be public whenever possible, preferably in a permanent chatroom dedicated to such discussions, so that those who don't have an interest can ignore it, while those who do can join it. If the chatroom is cleared or deleted for any reason, chat logs should be kept and posted publicly, in order to ensure full transparency on any decisions.
* Also notable here is that most if not all staff members, myself included, were left-leaning or fairly far left, last time I checked. While I certainly don't propose we invite alt-right members to be staff, those with stronger political leanings need to be sure that they're shelving their own political views as much as possible when it comes to non-political discussions and/or rule-making. Even ''in'' political discussions, staff need to be certain that they're not being unnecessarily "twitchy" when it comes to deleting messages or moderating users. If any can be found, I think a few responsible, moderate right-wing people should be brought on as staff, to balance everyone else out and make sure the echo chamber phenomenon isn't perpetuated.
* I understand that the "dungeon" channel has been renamed, and I thank you all for that. This still leaves the problem that the dungeon channel is cleared after any discussions, thus there's no accountability or transparency for staff. The person who is being disciplined is also isolated from everyone else and is thus unable to ask for help. In this configuration, staff have ''every'' advantage (numbers, increased rights, ability to discuss approach and strategy without the user's knowledge, to name a few), while the accused has none. That needs to be significantly altered. While private moderation is entirely appropriate when personal information is involved, if a user requests it, moderation discussions should take place in an ad-hoc, public chatroom (or permanent chatroom, dedicated to such discussions), where anyone who is interested can join and have their say because yes, sometimes every Tom, Dick, and Harry do have the right to have input on this sort of thing. If the room is to be cleared or deleted afterwards, chat logs should be maintained and published publicly for future reference. Similarly, even if the chat takes place in a private room, chat logs should be maintained in a private location, accessible to all staff in any part of UESP. This will not only help to ensure continued transparency and accountability, it will also allow staff from other parts of the site to be aware of any problem behaviour occurring elsewhere.
* At ''no time'' should any administrator ever delete any comment, theirs or anyone else's, from any discussion relating to rules or discipline. If you say something that came out wrong or was inaccurate or what have you, apologize and move forwards. If you say something that you realize could get you in trouble, well, guess what? You're an administrator...you're accountable for what you say and do! Deal with the consequences like a responsible admin.
* '''Rules''': In far too many cases, rules are developed on an ad-hoc basis. An example from Fullerton's discussion, above, would be not posting the contents of the moderation room to a public room. That's not a rule that was posted anywhere prior to that. From all accounts, it was made up on the fly. If Fullerton wasn't just doing it to spam channels or leak private information, he had every right to post the contents of a discussion about him to wherever he felt it appropriate to do so. After all, it's a discussion about him, and he maintains absolute control over that information. If administrators felt that they said or did something they didn't want public in that chat, well, maybe they shouldn't have done that thing in the first place! I don't know if that's the case here, but accountability is one of the places I feel our Discord server needs the most work, so I'm bringing it up again here as an example.
* Similarly, all rules should be posted publicly to the wiki's Discord page, or a subpage, so that people can know what they are before joining, if they choose to look. This will also help maintain a record of when rules were enacted or changed.
* '''Cross-platform Interactions''': As a rule, what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server. I'm not just referring to the recent issue with Fullerton, but rather, reminding everyone of a rule that has long been in place and has sometimes been ignored: no decisions made on the Discord server should be applied to the wiki, forums, or wherever else, without there being a full discussion on the relevant platform. You can always post chat logs, if needed. Bringing this back to Fullerton, however, I feel that much of what happened was probably blown out of all proportion, from what I've been able to tell in chats with those involved. At best, I feel that this was a borderline case as to whether it should have been brought to the wiki. So, I'm going to suggest that we use this as "the line". If it's less serious of an incident than Fullerton's, keep Discord discipline limited to Discord. We don't need to perpetuate drama across the entire site. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 23:07, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

::Rob has hit all of the points I've had some concern about, and after telling me he was making the post, I wanted to throw in my agreement with each post. I also want to say that one of the things I used to like about the UESP IRC channel was that the atmosphere was a lot friendlier, even though it was a smaller group. There were those token AOPs and HOPs in case there was the odd troublemaker in, but for the most part everyone treated everyone else fairly and euqally. If there were any concerns, they could be brought up knowing it would be fairly handled either there or on our Administration Noticeboard. I feel like that's not the case at all in Discord, and when I was there, I had a handful of users DM me because they were upset that there was such a clear clique and pecking order established in the Discord. There's a lot more emphasis on authority and enforcement, rather than peaceful moderation, and it's affecting how comfortable people are - myself included - when using the Discord, hence my departure from it.

::Users shouldn't have to be concerned that what they say will be picked apart by a cabal (and I hate using this word) that seems to exist in the Discord where the staff are ganging up on people who can't adequately defend themselves. Like with Fullerton's case, as a topical example, where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with.

::I also agree with Rob's thoughts about how leadership is elected, and I feel like going forward there should be a clear election process or consensus to decide who is capable of being a staff member, because at present, I see questionable decisions on who should be staff, and I feel like there should be clear guidelines in place and a nomination process, not existing staff arbitrarily chosing people on their own, as I feel they've been prone to do. -[[User:Damon|damon]]  [[User_talk:Damon|talk]] &hearts; [[Special:Contributions/Damon|contribs]] 23:37, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

:::@RH While you are making some interesting points and some of them could definitely addressed, I still think you are way too exaggerating the problems on Discord. The dungeon channel, for example, is the alternative for outright banning. There is a reason that the person does not have access to the other channels, because it is (mostly) used a soft-ban. I will comment about the other points at another time, because I certainly believe some of them are (partly) right and some of the rules might be changed to reflect these concerns.
:::For now I want to point out this statement from Damon: "where users who never use the wiki (or seldom do) were popping over to add to the consensus to affect a user on a platform that they don't use anyway and that should have no bearing on the wiki to begin with." I have no idea why he said that, because everyone in that discussion is in the top 100 of most edits this year (and Damon, you are not there, but I ''do'' still think you have the right to pop-up into this conversation). I believe everyone has the right to have their say, because the wiki concerns a lot more people than only the editors. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 00:49, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::I know I have not been an active user of Discord, having only used it about 3 times, but having read the post above, here and in the Fullerton case, my experience of basically being in charge of discipline on IRC (having kicked more people than the bot in charge of auto-kicking), and being one of the most active when I was there, I feel I can contribute/make observations from my experience there.
::::Almost every case of discipline was public, warnings, discussion, actions. Only very rarely did something discipline-wise happen off-channel, usually in private messaging, and usually only to bring attention to something that would then lead back into the public room. This is almost the same as happens on the wiki for demotions, punishments, warnings, even disputes about certain edits, with only a few instances of discussions happening via email. This is a very important point for avoiding accusations of cliquishness, even if it can't stop it. It actually helped that being a "staff" member on the wiki auto-entitled you to IRC status, as the wiki had little knowledge of a persons social leanings if they hadn't been on IRC.
::::The description of the multiple channels reinforces the observation that the channel is not being run for social interaction anymore, given the abundance of rules regarding where you have to post certain things; why are you not allowed to have fun in the main channel. That is an indictment of the current running of the channel, and I would suggest that the aforementioned Bethesda and Zenimax visitors would find that rather sad that no-one is having fun in case they "spoil" whatever passes for enjoyment in that stale environment. The IRC had an unwritten rule that you could have fun until someone needed help or to discuss something wiki/series related, and again it was rarely broken; this also lead to having many people in the channel who knew little about the games but were there to talk socially, making the place more enjoyable.
::::An overabundance of rules only tells people that you don't trust them to behave without them. I personally have probably broken every rule that wikipedia has cared to invent, yet respect most of them and enforce them when they are actually needed. Things thrive best when there are less rules, because the few that remain actually mean something. The current Discord wiki page is still not complete (a particular section is still linking back to the IRC page waiting for someone to adapt it for Discord). Nevertheless, it should not become full of rules as a result, and should continue the kind of informal style of the IRC page. I would also suggest that a complete rethink of all the rules be done, with some or many done away with, and also roll some of the off-shoot channels back into the main one, or merge some of the side ones together (less is so very much more).
::::Finally, a persons behaviour is their behaviour. An admins actions on IRC was an admins actions on the wiki. Even a persons actions off-site when representing the site should be held against them. This can be traced as far back as rpeh's admin rights removal for his actions off-site. When you become a staff member particularly, you are even-more-so representing the site, a responsibility you accept when you request or accept a role. However, back to IRC, an off-hand remark would often be forgotten if an apology was made, given the real-time nature of the network, only more serious actions would have led to something as big as rights-removals on the wiki (this is not a comment on the above discussion). To state it again, if RobinHood70 were to go anywhere on the internet and start doing reprehensible things (like saying my grammar is awful), and we knew it was him, he should be held accountable on the wiki and any of its offshoots (eg twitter/facebook management).
::::Feel free to ignore any of my advice/experience given my utter lack of Discord experience, just as I will continue to avoid social interaction with every one of you for the foreseeable future, given my right-wing stance on treating people with dignity and respect. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:11, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::First of all, I'd like to thank RobinHood for bringing this issue to the Noticeboard, and even more so with his resounding points, with which I agree in full in all cases.

:::::I have been one of the most active users in the UESP Discord server for close to an year or so (being on number 4 in the leaderboard - which is based roughly on the number of messages sent in the server - for quite a long period), until I voluntarily left a month ago due to my escalating issues with the moderation and administration of the server. My draft for this post got considerably long so I'll try to bullet point my issues and concerns to try for a more concise and cohesive post:

:::::* Moderation: any and all wiki (or subsidiaries) staff members are immediately given moderator privileges and responsibilities in the Discord server, whether they want it or are apt to do the job. As expressed by some staff members on the server itself, some of them do not even want to moderate and administer the server, and many others have no idea what they’re doing, which has led and will certainly lead to a series of bad and questionable decisions, even more so given the apparent top to bottom hierarchy and authority even among the staff members.

:::::* Divide between the staff and the community: while a difference between the wiki staff and the general public is certain to be expected, it has been made unhealthy by the server privileges given to the wiki staff, creating a sub community that most of the time seems to behave as if they were above the “regular” users, which shouldn’t be the case, given that the server is open to the public. Interactions between most staff members (with exceptions) and the rest of the community are also fairly limited, creating a big divide in the general interpretation of the actions to be taken, which are made exclusively by this more secluded and reserved group than by the biggest share of the active user base; and, as RH said, without consultation or open discussion with that part of the community.

:::::* Poor and inconsistent moderation/decision making: staff behaviour in regards to rule enforcement and problem-solving is completely inconsistent, while one staff might be strict, many others are extremely lax or never actually do anything, and even when the staff intervene, the actions taken vary absurdly from one to the next, and most of the time the staff board as a whole is extremely reactionary and ready to blow something minor and irrelevant out of proportion, making the many suffer for the sins of the one. It seems to me that the staff members lack a good guideline (if they have one at all) on how to treat the server, which ties in to the first point, of staff members not prepared to handle a chat server or unwilling to do so.

:::::Other than that, I would like to stress the points about Accountability and Cross-platforming that RH has made, which I believe are very important here. And despite what Ilaro has to say, all of these are very serious problems for the well-functioning of a chat server and the UESP server specifically, and all of the users I interact with on a more frequent basis, either on UESP or the other six TES servers I’m a part of, all notice and are bothered with most of the points raised here. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 01:27, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::{{ec|4}} I didn't bring it up further because the discussion was about Fullerton's rights on the wiki, not your opinion on the Discord server. But I must say that I was rather put out by your comment that the server is "dysfunctional". And maybe it is, if that ideal of functionality is based on the functionality a wiki. But Discord is not a wiki, it's an instant messaging and VoIP service, which is an entirely different medium.
::::::'''Ownership''': While I agree that technically it would be better if Dave was the server owner, I don't think he is active enough on Discord for that to actually be practical. A Discord server needs an active server owner so that they are available to deal with whatever issues crop up that only the server owner can deal with.
::::::'''Staff''': The original assignment of Discord staff based on being elected staff elsewhere on UESP is untenable. It was mentioned to us numerous times that a number of staff elsewhere have been avoiding the Discord because they didn't want to be staff on Discord. Everyone who was initially appointed as Discord staff this way has, as far as I am aware, now been contacted though to see whether they actually want to remain Discord staff or not. So that whole thing actually didn't make sense at all, as it was putting people into a position they didn't want. When it comes to appointing new staff, it appears to work the same way that it does here. Someone is approached by current staff with the suggestion. I think it's a very rare occurrence for someone to actually put themselves forward for a staff position of their own volition, or even with encouragement from other users, without at least one of those other users being staff already.
::::::'''Accountability/Transparency''': I actually don't understand the issue here. It is common practice for administration to be discussed in a private channel that is specifically for discussing administration. If that was done in a public channel, then effectively everyone is now an administrator. Although I do agree that anything that would have an effect on the entire userbase should be discussed with the entire userbase, I can't think of any examples right now where that has actually happened. (I'm sure you can though, otherwise you wouldn't have brought it up, so I'd be interested in having some examples.)
::::::There does appear to be an "anti-anything-remotely-right" bias, which I think may cause any staff members who are not left-leaning, if they do exist, to not make it obvious.
::::::Yes, the dungeon channel is now called "mediation". Whenever the channel is cleared, the contents are logged and are available to other staff on request. The isolation from the rest of the server is intentional - being put in the "dungeon", as was, is effectively banning someone from the rest of the server without actually kicking them from the server (you can't talk to them if they're kicked). It originally existed solely for this purpose; someone isn't banned if they can still access the other channels. This has been repurposed however, and I think can now serve as a "public" moderation chatroom, if such a thing would ever be required (but I can't think of any examples why it would be, as then it could just be discussed in #general).
::::::I'm not sure what your "deleting comments" sentence is getting at. Comments that violate the rules would of course be deleted, but I don't think that's what you mean...
::::::'''Rules''': On that specific example, a rule that has existed since the initial staff overhaul in October is ''"Any conversation that is not normally available to users should be treated as confidential"''. Since that rule only applies to staff, only staff can see it, to avoid confusing the rest of the userbase. Fullerton was well aware of this rule, and anyone who is suspended to the moderation channel is informed of it as well.
::::::While conceptually similar to the IRC, I think the way Discord has grown means that "token AOPs and HOPs" is just not a viable moderation method. The (rather high) number of staff required to maintain a large server probably does make it seem like there's a clique, and I'd love to hear some suggestions on how we can try to avoid that, yet while still maintaining necessary server integrity.
::::::I do not see anyone who commented on Fullerton's case who is not a regular/active UESP wiki contributor, based on the active editors from the last 12 months. Although it would be up to whoever decides what "consensus" actually is to determine whether consensus can be reached based on the currently-involved participants.
::::::Regarding how staff are chosen, I have no idea how it works on the Forums, but however it works there is probably the best model to use as a base for what we do on Discord. A forum is much more similar to a chat server than a wiki. Having a two-week discussion to reach someone's arbitrary definition of "consensus" is not a viable basis.
::::::In conclusion however, if "what happens on the Discord server should stay on the Discord server", surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it'', and then be involved in the implementation process of actually making the thing better. "Fixing a broken system that we didn't realise was broken" is what I've been doing at work for the past three months, and the best progress towards a resolution always comes out of a discussion where a clear direction of what to do next is given.

::::::@Silencer: If there appears to be a "rule against fun" in the main channel on Discord, let me know where that seems to have stemmed from, as that's not something I would support (although given how active the main channel usually is, I don't actually see it). Also if there is a general feeling that there is an overabundance of rules, I'd be happy to discuss trying to cut them down, if we can work out what's not actually needed.

::::::@Bryn: Immediate moderation rights for staff was a concept that was based on trust. i.e., "if they're trusted to moderate elsewhere, they're trusted to moderate Discord too". But we realised this was not what many of the other staff wanted, and as such, this is no longer the case, and all who were initially appointed like this have (I think) been contacted to ask if they wish to continue. Anyone newly appointed to a staff position elsewhere on UESP retains that original concept of "trust" though, and by that reasoning, are still asked if they would be interested in moderating Discord based on that. Any suggestions for improving staff/community interaction would be welcome, but I maintain what I said before that server moderation cannot be a community activity. There is definitely inconsistency within staff behaviour, but I don't actually know how that can be improved, as everyone will have their own way of doing things. In terms of actual rule enforcement (i.e., moderation), there is no reason that shouldn't be consistent if the rules are the same for everyone. Again, if people who "are bothered" by this come forward with their problems ''and solutions'', then there is no reason that we can't address these.
::::::--[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 01:50, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

:::::::@Eno: I appreciate the changes being made, and while I can see the reasoning for the trust factor, I think a competence qualification should also be looked for in a communication medium that works fundamentally different from what those people are used to moderate. I have proposed the following solution at least two times publicly on Discord and a few times directly to staff members, but it has so far been ignored. What I've always proposed is a divorce between wiki staff and Discord staff; there should be specific roles and channels for wiki and forum and guild and what-have-you staff, for sure, so that they can discuss topics that concern their specific roles, but those people should not also be made or necessarily even asked to become moderators for the server, and this should instead be relegated to members picked for showing aptness to follow and enforce rules and integrity in chat, kinda like I hear the "Tea Party Moderators" were selected (although I think this current approach is still flawed). I didn't go at length with this suggestion in my previous comment because it was already too long as it was and I felt it was detracting myself from making the points I thought needed to be made. [[User:BrynjarIsenbana|Bryn]] ([[User talk:BrynjarIsenbana|talk]]) 02:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

::::::::{{ec}} @Enodoc: I'll respond more fully later, as it'll take some time for me to really go through this point by point, but I did want to respond to one thing that may help clarify my attitude and actions here. Specifically, your suggestion that ''surely it is on the Discord server that this discussion should be being held, and if users (past or present) are not happy with the way it is being run, they should come to us with viable suggestions on ''how to change it'', not just ''what's wrong with it''.''

::::::::The problem here is that in taking this discussion to the Discord server, we are stating that we're willing to rejoin the server in its current state. I, for one, am not. I do not want to be seen as supporting it in any way right now. Yes, I think it's actually that dysfunctional, or at least it was the last time I was there. Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, if a discussion of the server takes place ''on'' the server, staff there are under absolutely no obligation to do anything whatsoever about the suggestions made and, unless we all go there together at the same time, any individual comments will be lost in the chatter of the general channel. The user could well be deemed a trouble-maker and have their comments deleted. Even if it did become a highly active discussion there, as you can see from some of the comments here, trust in some of the Discord staff is not high among some users. We simply have no confidence that any discussion held on the server wouldn't simply be deleted. By holding it here, on the wiki, it's not in Discord staff's hands, and a full, permanent record is available to any and all without requiring them to join UESP's Discord. – [[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]]  [[User talk:RobinHood70|(talk)]] 02:20, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

{{od}}I'll preface this by saying that I am one of the "current or former patrollers" mentioned above who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that the UESPWiki Discord server is being run. Make of that what you will.

One of the most serious issues I attempted to raise during my (brief) time in the channel was the lack of transparency which seems to have become endemic since the move was made from IRC. This has manifested itself most notably in the deletion of the block logs page - Fullerton also attempted to address that, above. Frankly, I don't feel Alarra's argument that a public list of banned users would encourage misbehavior holds any water, and I'd appreciate some clarification of this claim, if she’d be so kind.

Is there a precedent that's made you feel this way? Do you feel the same way about the [[Special:BlockList|block logs]] on the wiki? Should they be privatized on the basis that they might encourage infamy? I moderated the [[UESPWiki:IRC|now defunct IRC channel]] for more than three years, and during that time the [[UESPWiki:IRC/Bans|channel block log]] was maintained meticulously, because it was understood that the chat was simply an extension of the wiki, and so the same rules applied - including record keeping. I’m disturbed to see that this commitment to openness has fallen by the wayside so completely, and in such a short amount of time.

On the topic of record keeping, I find the accusation levelled against Fullerton that he ''"posted the contents of what had been said in the "#dungeon" channel (despite knowing it was against the rules, as he was staff when it was created)"'' really, really worrying, and actually symptomatic of a much larger culture of silence. If a user feels uncomfortable with the way that staff are treating them, and feels they're being dealt with unfairly, they shouldn't just be permitted to raise the issue elsewhere - they should be encouraged to do so.

''"He was removed on October 27 for sharing private staff conversations with other users."'' Once again, where on the Discord guidelines page does it say that this is grounds for removal of role? Why is this grounds for punishment at all? Conversations with staff members are not top-secret information - if someone feels uncomfortable with the way a staff member has spoken to them, and feels that policy has been violated, they're within their rights to consult another user for a second opinion. A second set of eyes can offer valuable insight. Ordinarily, going to another, unbiased staff member would be preferable, but that's difficult if you feel there ''aren't'' any unbiased staff members.

I’ll admit this part of the post struck a chord with me, personally. In the past, I was repeatedly bullied and called horrible names by a member of wiki staff, in a series of IRC private messages which began under the guise of a reprimand for misbehaviour. This bully had been on the site far longer than I had, and was a well-established member of the community; I was the same age at the time as Fullerton is now, and I had no idea how to react. I firmly hold that distributing the logs of those discussions was the right thing to do, even if it was a technical violation of the rules; it meant that others were able to tell me that yes, this was something inappropriate and no, I wasn’t at fault. People in authority are not above authority. The user in question was ultimately blocked, which should tell you all you need to know. Transparency of moderator behaviour is important to ensure fairness and equality.

''"Someone who does not respect our moderation processes should not be trusted with any moderation powers."'' In other words, anyone who disagrees with the actions taken by the moderation staff - even if those actions have no written basis and are made up on the fly - should be blacklisted regardless of prior behaviour. Good to know.

''"Unfortunately, these discussions can't be public because every other Tom, Dick and Harry want to poke their nose into things which are none of their business."'' This one speaks for itself, I think, as to the contempt some current staff members hold for the users they preside over, but I'd like to quote the page on [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]] anyway:

''"All editors' opinions should be given equal weight. In particular, administrators do not have inherently greater authority than other editors. Because of their greater experience with the UESPWiki, administrators may have more knowledge of how content is currently organized on the site, or be able to refer to similar examples on other wiki pages. Therefore, administrators (and experienced editors) may be able to provide more support for their position. Their reasoning, rather than their status, may therefore cause their opinion to influence a discussion."'' Ahem.

''"The reason we created (the #dungeon) is to have time to let all moderators give input."'' Some of the moderators on the Discord server were not, in fact, elected by the wiki community at all. Yet they're being treated - and are behaving - as though they were not only administrators, but final arbiters of justice. Are staff who were given their positions with no input from the people they're supposed to be moderating really qualified to do so?

These quotes all illustrate a wider lack of accountability by the staff members to the community as a whole. Other examples of bad practice can be seen in instances where [[Skyrim_talk:Proudspire_Manor#Transclusion_to_Houses|consensus is reached]] [[Online_talk:Crafting_Motifs#Merge|on Discord with no input]] from the wider editor base, the argument being made that anyone who wants to partake in discussions should simply use Discord, or in Dillon deciding to make [http://en.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=UESPWiki:Discord&diff=1697969&oldid=1696580 significant changes to the guidelines] by removing the part which said that all staff members were equal in the channel with absolutely no discussion at all. The fallout from that little change was the creation of a "non-staff patroller" role, once again without any discussion, which was allocated to certain blacklisted users. Unsurprisingly, no mention of this distinction is made on the page.

If we go further back, we can see [[UESPWiki:Discord/Bans|AKB unilaterally deleting the block logs]] page, on the basis that it “serves no purpose.” I beg to differ in the strongest possible terms, and I know I’m not the only one. I was told in the channel that the reason for this decision was actually because it was inconvenient to keep it updated; judging by Alarra’s post above, that narrative has been amended retroactively.

Another problematic aspect of the channel was the consistent jeering, mocking and snide remarks by the staff about a specific, very active wiki editor, behind his back. Since I haven't preserved the logs of this bullying, and since it took place publicly only on occasion, with the majority of the vitriol being espoused in a private channel by the administrative staff, it doesn't particularly serve as evidence, but I certainly wasn't the only person to witness it. As far as I know the user who was the subject of these taunts is still unaware that this ever occurred, or that he was frequently the butt of the administration’s jokes.

I myself was also mocked, publicly, by an administrator after I left the UESPWiki server; several users I shared servers with told me separately that I had been “dissed” by someone who was supposedly a role model. That’s not on. As Lady N so succinctly put it, this is about people ''“who (have) been given the responsibility of representing the UESP in an official capacity, behaving in a manner that is unbecoming of an official representative of a 20+ year old website that is frequented by most of the TES community and by Bethesda and ZeniMax Online.”''

Staff should strive to be the best parts of any community. The recent behaviour of some members has been the opposite of that. You’re there to serve the community, not to rule over it. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 02:36, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Skyrim talk:Elgrim's Elixirs

2017-11-09T15:11:50Z

Kitkat1749: Header, unsigned

==Incorrect information==

"Even if you complete Truth Ore Consequences, taking any of the other items in the store is still considered stealing. In particular, you are never able to freely take any of the alchemy ingredients sitting on the store's shelves and counters." - I'm able to take all the ingredients, the only things that count as stealing are the higher value potions. On PS3. [[Special:Contributions/74.109.104.228|74.109.104.228]] 17:28, 20 March 2013 (GMT)

==Ingun and the Bed in Elgrims's==

It appears Ingun can sleep in Elgrim and Hafjorg bed even though there is no reason for her to do so. She has a perfectly good bed in the best home in town. The game assigns Ingun to the EE faction, and there is no excludefaction for EE. Thus she will sandbox , including sleeping in their bed. This could be considered a bug, or at least bordering on one. {{unsigned|24.68.124.234|09:38, 9 November 2017‎ (UTC)}}

Lore talk:Daedra

2017-11-08T15:52:41Z

Kitkat1749: /* Naming Origins */ Comment

== "True" Daedra ==
"Technically, Malacath, Mehrunes Dagon, Sheogorath, and Meridia are not "true" Daedra. These are beings transformed into Daedra by various unpleasant circumstances." this is untrue in the cases of
dagon and Sheogorath i know of no mention of dagon being anything other than i true deadric prince and Sheogorath is Jyggalag who is a true deadric prince these two names should be removed if no one
else will i will if you know of a reason not to say it pleas [[User:Diobern|Diobern]] 16:34, 8 November 2008 (EST)
:Calling of the sixteen "not true daedra" is sort of iffy, though their special status could me neutrally mentioned. Malacath is Trinimac who was eaten by Boethia- very well documented. Meridia was chastised and cast down by Akatosh according to the Census of Daedra Lords, a document written for and referenced in the 3rd PGE. Dagon supposedly found his true form after being destroyed by Alduin, according to Nordic folklore and a document that is concept work for a possible game in Skyrim.[[User:24.31.156.165|24.31.156.165]] 18:56, 8 November 2008 (EST)

i would like to see the text about dagon [[User:Diobern|Diobern]] 19:18, 8 November 2008 (EST)
:Fight number One, best read with mead. http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/aldudagga.shtml

thanks for the link.
i dont think nordic mythology is good evadance that dagon isent a "true" deadric lord
could it be rewriten to say he might not be? [[User:Diobern|Diobern]] 11:13, 10 November 2008 (EST)
:Myths are true, so the only thing disqualifying it is that we hear about it in Nordic mythology alone. As I said, I wouldn't touch "true" daedra lord with a ten-foot pole, although a possible special status could be mentioned.[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 13:51, 10 November 2008 (EST)

:: I'm sorry but I can't let that pass. Courtesy of [http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth dictionary.com] we find that a "myth" is "a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.". If you disagree, then please give me Santa Claus' email address. Or Odin would be good, since this is about Nordic mythology. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 16:11, 10 November 2008 (EST)
:::I just deleted my original response in order to give you the benefit of the doubt. Were you under the impression that I was talking about the real world in a talk page regarding a fake world?[[User:Temple-Zero|Temple-Zero]] 16:25, 10 November 2008 (EST)

I have changed the article to reflect this discussion. If anyone has any objections, I would be happy to hear them.

== Exposure to daedric weapons/armor= madness? ==

''"Long term exposure to Daedric weaponry or armor invariably results with a slow descent into madness."''
I have never heard this mentioned before. Can anyone confirm this? Has it been mentioned in a book or by a person in one of the games? {{unsigned|Blue deep|14 January 2009}}.
:Good question. Most of the rest of the passage is probably based on [[Morrowind:Garothmuk gro-Muzgub|Garothmuk gro-Muzgub]]'s dialogue:
::''Daedric weapons are made from raw ebony which has been refined using the craft and magical substances of the lesser minions of Oblivion. The process is not a pleasant one for the Daedra involved, and the weapons retain echoes of preternaturally prolonged suffering endured during manufacture. Daedric weapons are the most rare and expensive weapons known in Tamriel.''
:But I can't see where the statement about descending into madness comes from. I've added a VN tag to the article. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 21:20, 18 January 2009 (EST)
::If you look at the book Tamrielic Lore from Morrowind, the reason for the short term ownership of a daedric artifact is that ownership is based merely on its Daedra Prince's whim and if he/she decides it needs to change ownership, it does. In other words, the reason given on this page for short term ownership is wrong. The only artifact I can think of that drives its owner mad is Umbra, but Umbra's not a DAEDRIC artifact at all. I think that section is pretty much a fanfic and should be removed.
::: I've removed the statement. [[User:Peterb|Peterb]] 18:47, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

== Daedra Creature History ==

I think this page could be improved by perhaps having pictures of each example of daedra creature (hunger, atronach etc) from every game they are in, and noting which game they first appeared in, and a comparison of stats and physical appearances from the different games. Does anyone agree?

[[User:Remorse1994|Remorse1994]] 15:58, 18 February 2009 (EST)

::I agree, but perhaps all of that information is already covered in the bestiary? This page would be quite lengthy if it had that much information and that many pictures.
::[[User:Chunk of ham|Chunk of Ham]] 02:33, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

== Separate Princes ==

:''(moved from the article)''
(I think they were to seperate princes, but since the other lords feared Jyggalag's power, they sealed him into another prince. Can anyone confirm or falsify this?)
::Sheogorath grew out of Jyg like Hyde out of Jekyl.[[User:71.244.115.20|71.244.115.20]] 12:23, 20 April 2009 (EDT)

== What classifies something as a Daedra? ==

I understand this sounds like a simple question, but there are so many of them in plains of Oblivion and I was wondering what divided them from Adadra and other. I know they had no part in the creation of mundus but when looking up the history of vampires and stumbled on about how Molag Bal created the fist one to spite Ark'ay. The points I wish to make is, can Daedra create life, wouldn't that make vampires daedra, and can Daedra bestow mortals with god like powers? [[User:Void walker|Void walker]] 19:36, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
:Aedra and Daedra differ in that whilst both were created by Anu and Padomay, the Aedra are closer to Anu (representing stasis) and the Daedra are closer to Padomay (representing chaos). Vampires are merely cursed mortals, but I do not know if the Daedra can bestow such powers. It would technically fit with lore if they could grant mortals abilities, yet I can't think of any examples where they gave them godlike powers [[User:Corvus|Corvus]] 21:27, 27 June 2010 (UTC)
::They have their own god-like abilities, like being able to be reborn in the fires of creation. In Oblivion it is shown that Mythic Dawn Cultists can open up Oblivion Gates, that power could have been bestowed upon them by Daedra or by Mehrunes Dagon himself. --[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|''Arch-Mage Matt'']][[User talk:Arch-Mage Matt|Talk]] 22:35, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

== The Word Deadra ==

I did not know where to put this, so i thought here would be best. I think that it is worth making a note somewhere That daeara is the welsh word meaning 'earth'. as Deadra are of the ground and Aedra of the heavens?[[User:AdairTheNord|AdairTheNord]] 08:29, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

: I honestly doubt that the developers used that to name them. =D [[User:JackTurbo95|JackTurbo95]] 10:27, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

:: Who knows where the word originated. But we usually don't put real world etymology on the wiki. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 11:05, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

== Jyggalag ==

Jyggalag is not included in the list of daedric princes but shouldn't he? [[User:Evlydia|Evlydia]] 20:25, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

: Updated. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 20:38, 9 June 2012 (UTC)

== What exactly goes into a Daedric weapon? ==

Does the heart contain the soul of a Daedra? If so, then is the Daedra stuck in the weapon forever?--[[Special:Contributions/71.202.138.39|71.202.138.39]] 21:03, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

: I believe [[Morrowind:Garothmuk gro-Muzgub|Garothmuk gro-Muzgub]] puts it best: "''Daedric weapons are made from [[Morrowind:Ebony|raw ebony]] which has been refined using the craft and magical substances of the lesser minions of [[Lore:Oblivion| Oblivion]]. The process is not a pleasant one for the [[Morrowind:Daedra| Daedra]] involved, and the weapons retain echoes of preternaturally prolonged suffering endured during manufacture. Daedric weapons are the most rare and expensive weapons known in [[Lore:Tamriel| Tamriel]].''" Forging Daedric weaponry with a Daedra Heart is simplifying the procedure. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 21:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

== Knights of Order ==
: According to http://www.imperial-library.info/node/2234 which was written by Bethesda employees, the Knights of Order are not properly classified as Daedra, but some other type of servant. This might explain why Shivering Isles described them as being mindless/soulless. They probably don't even have a spirit to go to the Waters of Oblivion and return, but are just made endlessly like automatons. Regardless, they might not belong on this page.[[Special:Contributions/99.127.173.78|99.127.173.78]] 06:31, 19 October 2012 (GMT)

== Creatures native to Oblivion ==

Can we assume that all creatures native to any plane of oblivion are daedra? or are there also "normal" animals/beasts living there? (I mean creatures like the [[Lore:Elytra|Elytra]] or [[Lore:Grummite|Grummites]] of the [[Lore:Shivering Isles|Shivering Isles]] or the [[Lore:Boneman|Bonemen]] of the [[Lore:Soul Cairn|Soul Cairn]]) {{uns|SarthesArai|14:21, 11 May 2013}}

:Short answer, no. Daedra are those whose origins are not traced back to creation. Between a daedra and a typical natural animal, however, a third group has emerged: natural creatures which have been heavily influenced by daedric forces. Shivering Isles creatures have been consciously left off the daedra list on this page in the past, and I assume it's because they are believed to fall in this third category. As for the Bonemen, I have no idea what category they fall into, but they're basically zombies, and zombies are just re-purposed mortals, so I don't think they qualify. Finally, I believe all the listed creatures were explicitly confirmed to be daedra at some point or another (in game data, in dialogue, etc.); I don't think any of their statuses had to be inferred. I could be wrong. [[User:Minor Edits|Minor Edits]][[User_talk:Minor Edits|Threats]]•[[Special:Contributions/Minor Edits|Evidence]] 02:46, 13 May 2013 (GMT)

== Genders ==

Why are the Daedra considered genderless or have unknown gender where, in some cases, they're easily identifiable as male/female (either by their body or voice), set as X gender in the game code, and usually even referred to as he/she? --[[Special:Contributions/121.74.229.217|121.74.229.217]] 01:29, 15 January 2015 (GMT)

:That's just the way the lore defines them. I ''think'' that only applies to Daedric Princes though, and not any Daedra. While the Princes may prefer to appear as one gender or another, they are not bound by that (eg, Boethiah has appeared as both before). Humanoid Daedra like the Dremora, Aureal and Mazken do have a defined gender. --[[User:Enodoc|Enodoc]] ([[User talk:Enodoc|talk]]) 09:35, 15 January 2015 (GMT)

:: It applies to all Daedra (and dragons as well). —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 14:24, 15 January 2015 (GMT)

:::So you're saying that when the golden saints / dark seducers talked about their males being weaker in SI, they were just making things up? Daedra don't reproduce, so there's no need for a fusion of two different genotypes, but still, there at least some races that have two variations which share the characteristic features of the two genders of man, mer and beastfolk (races where this is known include the {{Lore Link|Golden Saint}}s ([[:File:SI-npc-Male Golden Saint Bow.jpg|m]]/[[:File:SI-npc-Golden Saint Palace Guard.jpg|f]]), {{Lore Link|Dark Seducer}}s ([[:File:SI-npc-Male Mazken.jpg|m]]/[[:File:SI-npc-Female Dark Seducer.jpg|f]]), {{Lore Link|Dremora}} ([[:File:MW-creature-Dremora.jpg|m]]/[[:File:ON-npc-Velark.jpg|f]]), {{Lore Link|Spider Daedra}} ([[:File:BS-creature-Spider Daedra.jpg|m]]/[[:File:OB-creature-Spider Daedra.jpg|f]]) and possibly {{Lore Link|Flame Atronach}}s ([[:File:MW-creature-Flame Atronach.jpg|m]]/[[:File:SR-creature-Flame Atronach.jpg|f]])). As I already said, they also call themselfes ''"male"'' or ''"female"'', and each vestige seems to keep its gender at its rebirths (See {{Lore Link|Staada}}). Judging a daedras gender by using their set gender in the game files in games where there is only one form of this type of daedra is a wrong thing though, as these values may be kept as their default, male. {{Lore Link|Daedric Princes}}, on the other hand, seem to be able to change their gender, as well as their entire appearance, at will (or some other factors unknown to us), but they are much more powerfull. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 19:48, 15 January 2015 (GMT)

:::: See [[User_talk:Jimeee#Gender_of_Daedra|this discussion]]. In truth we have no hard evidence that even the Daedric Princes have the power to change gender. All we know is that some of the Princes do, and that Daedra choose their physical form and emulate mortals. If we're going to draw the conclusion that ''all'' the Princes can change gender, why not logically extend it to all Daedra? It's been listed as fact for a long time, both on the wiki and in the wider community (TIL springs to mind), and I think it's a fair assumption to make even without a direct source. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 20:24, 15 January 2015 (GMT)

::::: Personally, I agree with what Enodoc and SarthesArai said. At least some of the Princes appeared as both male and female in the past, and conversely, there has never been a case of a lesser Daedra changing gender, ever. It seems logical to me that the lesser Daedra do have a defined gender, and the Princes don't (or at least some of them don't). --[[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer ]]([[User talk:Vordur Steel-Hammer|TINV1K]]) 02:18, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

:::::: I would think that if a daedra, if referred to as male or female, should be referred to as male or female on their lore and/or game page and not unknown (as well as dragons). However, if their gender changes throughout the series, then I think it's fair to use the unknown state.

:::::: @Legoless, remember the Princes are Greater Daedra, having, obviously, greater abilities than their lesser brethren. Unless it states a lesser daedra has had their gender changed at any point, similar to Boethia, then I don't think it's fair to make that assumption --[[Special:Contributions/121.74.229.217|121.74.229.217]] 04:00, 16 January 2015 (GMT)

== Daedric princes odd link ==

The link for the Daedric princes brings you right back to this page rather than to their respective lore pages. That's kind of pointless. I think this should be changed [[User:Iituti|Iituti]] ([[User talk:Iituti|talk]]) 21:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

: Which link? [[Lore:Daedric Princes]] works. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:43, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

== On Daedra Lords ==

I find that the page might benefit from the inclusion of the less often mentioned tiers of Daedra not considered princes, yet are above the lesser Daedra in tier. In ESO Live - Episode 18 (52m 8s), Loremaster Lawrence Schick introduces the concept of subspheres ruled by Daedra Lords distinct from the princes. The Daedric Lord of Fishing, whose info is obscure and limited at the moment, serves under Hircine to embody the subsphere to Hircine's hunt that is fishing. Some Daedra lords have their own realms, and others serve the princes. This might imply a connection to the Daedra lords of Daggerfall and Battlespire serving under Mehrunes Dagon. However, a Daedra lord appears to be above a Demiprince, which is considered a by-blow of the former or of a Daedric Prince.

Such a section could also reference positions such as a demiprince or duke, such as Fa-Nuit-Hen or Kh-Utta, duke of scamps.
It seems that the term Demiprince is sometimes used to refer to a being of part 'ada blood regardless of Aedric or Daedric influence, such as Morihaus or Umaril the Unfeathered. Whether or not this usage is correct is unknown.

--[[User:Iceflame542|Iceflame542]] ([[User talk:Iceflame542|talk]]) 20:36, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

: Is there any mention of the Prince of Fishing outside ESO Live? —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 22:57, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

:: I don't think so, but if I remember correctly, the [[Online:Bad Man's Hallows|Bad Man's Hallows]] in Glenumbra were connected to a pocket plane of Oblivion that was said to be ruled by some minor Daedra Lord. --[[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer ]]([[User talk:Vordur Steel-Hammer|TINV1K]]) 23:22, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

::: I think that was just a natural cave on Tamriel that was occupied by an invading Daedra who posed as the Bad Man (and only for that year's festival). That said, there are definitely pocket realms ruled over by powerful Lesser Daedra and we've met quite a lot of them. There's very little else to say on the matter, however. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 11:29, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

::::It definetly is more than a natural cave. To cite [[Online:Eveline Vette|Eveline Vette]], ''"We're directly beneath the tree. Except it's not a tree. It's a minor Daedric lord. The tree's roots are the key. He channels dark energy through them, to keep this pocket of Oblivion from collapsing upon itself. Destroying the roots will hurt hem."''

::::Some mages summoned that "minor Daedric lord", who then posed as the bad man, and created his own plane of oblivion looking like a tree. From what I recall, it was not an ordinary Daedra. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 18:01, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

:::::That's exactly what I meant. --[[User:Vordur Steel-Hammer|Vordur Steel-Hammer ]]([[User talk:Vordur Steel-Hammer|TINV1K]]) 18:12, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

:::::: My bad, I was remembering it as literal roots. Might be worth making a page similar to [[Lore:Lord Velian's Plane|this]] if it's an Oblivion realm. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 21:36, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

== Daedra or Daedroth ==

I created an account particularly for this purpose (sorry to nitpick with my first post? action? on this site, I am new to wikis). When it comes to terminology, shouldn't the article be consistent in referring to daedroth in the plural or singular form? For example the introduction refers to singular daedroth correctly in one sentence, while referring to them as "daedra" in the next. Thank you!

[[User:Hathro|Hathro]] 5:30, 23 January 2016 (EST)

:Actually only one instance in the last paragraph of the introduction section.

:[[User:Hathro|Hathro]] 6:14, 23 January 2016 (EST)

::Corrected, thank you for pointing it out! -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

::: I'm not sure if we should be using the word daedroth at all, except to refer to the [[Lore:Daedroth|crocodile guys]]. "Daedra" is the standard singular form and has been for a while now. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 17:14, 23 January 2016 (UTC)

::::You have a point there. I'm pretty sure that most characters use the word Daedra even when singular. I'm finding it hard to find cases of in game of references to any singular daedra as daedroth, whether dialogue or books other than [[Lore:On Oblivion|On Oblivion]]. --[[User:Hathro|Hathro]] ([[User talk:Hathro|talk]]) 06:28, 24 January 2016 (UTC) (I didn't know about the whole four tildes thing until now, which is why I suddenly switched to UTC :D)

:::::I agree as well. I had changed the "daedra" to "daedroth" for consistency within the page, but I don't recall anyone saying "daedroth" when refering to generic daedra. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 13:05, 24 January 2016 (UTC)

::::::Yeah, I can't find any source more recent than Morrowind that uses "Daedroth" to refer to anything other than the specific crocodilian type of daedra. I think we should move mention of Daedroth as the singular to a note and only use Daedra in the article itself. -- [[User:Hargrimm|Hargrimm]][[User talk:Hargrimm|(T)]] 22:07, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
:::::::Agreed. Even ''Morrowind'' does this; that game itself says that the Daedroth : Daedra :: singular : plural distinction is an archaism by the era of that game. Even that much is asserted in the voice of a fictional writer; many of the games' fictional writers get stuff wrong (and this is intentional on part of the developers), so the one "source" that says it isn't even necessarily reliable. I do think it should remain, but it's fine a just a note. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 12:24, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

== Aliens ==

Concerning how the "realms of Oblivion" are in actuality planets in deep space, would it be appropriate to mention somewhere on this page how Daedra are aliens or extra terrestrials to the beings of Nirn? I would do it myself but I'm not sure how appropriate it would be to use real-world terms that may not exist in a fictional universe. --[[User:Rezalon|Rezalon]] ([[User talk:Rezalon|talk]]) 07:26, 30 January 2016 (UTC)

:A bit too invested in the real world, in my opinion. Most on Nirn just recognize them as what they are—being much more aware of the cosmic entities and such in their universe than we are of any in our own—rather than labeling them 'aliens', so it would be a trivial mention at best. Plus, like you said, the concept of "extra terrestrial" could be non-existent in TES, and it very likely is. [[User:Korodac|Korodac]] ([[User talk:Korodac|talk]]) 07:55, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
::The fact that the realms of oblivion are "planets" comes pretty much entirely from OOG content. There are references that could be interpreted as such in game, but it's not 100% and most wouldn't even be read that way unless you are trying to. We wouldn't include it here at all. [[User:Jeancey|Jeancey]] ([[User talk:Jeancey|talk]]) 08:10, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
:::If it's in any "official" materials, it could be put into a footnote. Might be of interest to some (it is to me – I find it a big surprise, as I'd thought they were coming from a completely different dimension or plane of existence), not teleporting over from other planets. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 12:21, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

== Good Daedra and Bad Daedra ==

The game [[Morrowind:Morrowind|''Morrowind'']] makes extensive use of the terms Good Daedra and Bad Daedra in NPC dialogue and book material. I'm not steeped enough in the lore to be certain of the definitions, or if there even are any, but these terms need to be addressed, since they're used in-game. From what I can tell, the Good Daedra are the [[Lore:Tribunal|Almsivi Tribunal]] and their direct servants, while the Bad Daedra are , well, all other Daedra. But this may not be very precise. — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 04:59, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
:Yes, the Chimer came up with the Good/Bad concept. The Good are Boethiah, Azura, and Mephala. The Bad are specifically known as the [[Lore:House of Troubles]]. See [[Lore:The Anticipations]]. This note should probably go on the main [[Lore:Daedric Princes]] page though. --[[User:Jimeee|Jimeee]] ([[User talk:Jimeee|talk]]) 08:25, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
::Sounds good. Just want these terms to redirect somewhere, since people will try to look them up (I did!). — [[User:Darklocq|Darklocq]] [[User talk:Darklocq|☎]] [[Special:Contributions/Darklocq|¢]] 12:18, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

== Naming Origins ==

on reddit, Julian Jenson gave the reason why and how he came up the name for the Daedra as well as how the name was invented for them in arena. redditDOTcom/r/Daggerfall/comments/7b4vh4/ask_me_anything_im_julian_jensen_programmer/dpglvuj/ should we include this in a section on this page?

[[User:Chizmad|Chizmad]] ([[User talk:Chizmad|talk]]) 15:15, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
:He is talking about the Gods (as in the Eight Divines) and not the Daedra. We have already the names listed as an easter egg on the Daggerfall page [[Daggerfall:Easter Eggs|here]]. --[[User:Ilaro|Ilaro]] ([[User talk:Ilaro|talk]]) 15:30, 8 November 2017 (UTC)
::How do you figure he's speaking about the Eight Divines, as opposed to the Daedra? He says: "''The Daedra are pretty much like fantasy demons,''" followed by "''At the time, I was reading a variety of Plato, and came to think of "Phaedrus" and "Phaedo" and from there it wasn't much of a leap to "Daedra.''" He also specifically notes that Daedra were created to serve as antagonistic forces "''where a god would be too much''," explicitly differentiating them from the Eight Divines. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 15:52, 8 November 2017 (UTC)

Skyrim:Jiub

2017-11-08T15:06:26Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1702150 by Thebusdriver (talk) Redundant. Skyrim:Boneyard redirects to Skyrim:Soul Cairn, which is already linked.

{{cleanup|Dialogue should be integrated into the article for better flow.}}
__NOTOC__
{{Mod Header|Dawnguard}}{{NPC Summary
|essential=
|city=
|loc=[[Skyrim:Soul Cairn|Soul Cairn]]
|house=
|race=Dunmer
|gender=Male
|class=Scout
|refid=xx01401A
|baseid=xx0093A1
|image=SR-npc-Jiub.jpg
|imgdesc=Saint Jiub's Soul
|aggress=Unaggressive
|class_details=[[Skyrim:CombatScout|CombatScout]]
|faction={{Faction|Prisoners Faction}}
|health=75
|level=4
|magicka=60
|mod=[[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]]
|moral=No Crime
|skills=[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]
|stamina=60
|voicetype=Unique
}} [[Category:Skyrim-Dawnguard-NPCs]] [[Category:Skyrim-Dawnguard]]
'''Jiub''' is a [[Skyrim:Dunmer|Dunmer]] [[SR:CombatScout|scout]] whose soul is trapped in the [[Skyrim:Soul Cairn|Soul Cairn]]. He prefers his long title, Saint Jiub the Eradicator of the Winged Menace, which he received after he eradicated [[Lore:Cliff Racer|Cliff Racers]] from [[Lore:Vvardenfell|Vvardenfell]]. He has no idea that he died during the [[Lore:Oblivion Crisis|Oblivion Crisis]] or that he has been gone for more than two hundred years. He searches the Soul Cairn for the pages of his [[Skyrim:Saint Jiub's Opus|Opus]], a book in a line of 26 volumes.

He wears a pair of [[Skyrim:Ragged Trousers|ragged trousers]] and carries a [[Skyrim:Steel Dagger|steel dagger]].

To find him, stand in the gap by the wall dividing Soul Cairn. Enter the side with the Boneyard and immediately head east. Follow the trail of soul pits until you come to a large soul pit with some loot and page 5 of Jiub's Opus. Jiub will be nearby, sitting at a campfire.

If pressed for information on how he came to be in the Soul Cairn, Jiub will reveal that he was soul trapped and killed by a [[Lore:Dremora|Dremora]] during the siege of [[Lore:Kvatch|Kvatch]].

Jiub may greet you by saying: ''"I'm still hard at work on the second volume of my epic."'' or ''"Come to visit this lost soul again?"'' or ''"Back to visit Jiub the Magnificent, eh?"'' or ''"I hope you've read the first volume of my epic by now."'' or ''"I miss my homeland, but I can't say that I miss all the noise!"''

When exiting conversation with Jiub, he may say: ''"When you get back to Tamriel, let them know I still exist."'' or ''"Now, where was I..."'' or ''"Only thirty more pages and my next volume will be complete."'' or ''"If you think of any juicy details to add to my work, let me know!"''

You can ask him various things:

===Imprisonment===
'''How'd you get caught?''' ''"I finally bit off more than I could chew. I was paid to assassinate some high-ranked official from House Redoran. What I didn't know is someone had hired the Morag Tong to kill him as well."''

'''Rival assassin?''' ''"Exactly. He got to my target first and called the guard to cover his tracks. By the time I got there, the place was on alert. Walked right into a trap, and didn't even realize it until I was captured."''

'''You said you were in prison?''' ''"That was a dark time in my life. I did a lot of things I ended up regretting. Maybe that's why I worked so hard to redeem myself once I was freed."''

===Life Before Imprisonment===
'''Is that where you were attacked?''' ''"Indeed! One moment I was writing diligently, and the next, my door bursts open. It was a cadre of dremora. The city was under attack. I took it upon myself to join the cause and fight the dremora, thinking this would simply be another feather in my cap."''

'''What did you do?''' ''"I murdered others for money. And before you think I belonged to some romantic or secretive guild, think again. I was simply an addict who needed money for skooma. The stuff wasn't cheap, and murder always seemed to be in demand."''

===Kvatch===
'''What ended up happening?''' ''"Well, I don't know. Everything seemed fine until that dremora attacked me. I only heard later about the gates from the other souls. I can only assume the gates have been closed by now."''

'''Where were you captured?''' ''"I had just moved from my ancestral home in Morrowind to the {{sic|continent|province|description=incorrect term}} of [[Lore:Cyrodiil|Cyrodiil]]. I settled in the city of Kvatch to write my memoirs and to find some peace and quiet."''

'''Why was Dagon able to do this?''' ''"All I heard is that without a Septim sitting on the throne of the Empire, the Dragonfires in a place called the Temple of the One were no longer lit. This meant that we were vulnerable to the forces of Oblivion."''

'''Why would a dremora attack you?''' ''"Well, that's a ridiculous question. Everyone travelling through here has said that the Oblivion Gates have been opening all over Tamriel."''

===Winged Menace===
'''How did you earn your nicknames?''' ''"Ah, yes. Saint Jiub, Jiub the Eradicator, Jiub the Magnificent... I've earned a lot of titles thanks to my campaign against the Winged Menace."''

'''What was your campaign against them?''' ''"After I was freed from prison, I decided to turn my life around. Give something to the people of Morrowind. It became quickly apparent that the best way I could help would be by wiping out the cliff racers."''

'''Winged Menace?''' ''"Yes. I'm speaking of the Cliff Racer of course. Wretched things. They use to criss-cross the skies over Morrowind like vermin. Nasty flying creatures with a habit of sneaking up on the unwary."''
{{Newleft}}

== Related Quests ==
*{{Quest Link|Impatience of a Saint}}

==Dialogue==
*''"Now what was it I said to [[Morrowind:Nerevarine|that prisoner]]? 'Stand up, there you go. You were dreaming...' Yes, that was it."''
*''"Did I start with my ride on the prison ship, or was it before that?"''
*''"Was it 'Between forces of good and evil.'? No, no...that's not it..."''
*''"Was it 'Having the adoration of thousands...' No, wait. I could make it 'the adoration of tens of thousands.'"''
*''"I wonder how many copies I'll sell? Hundreds? Thousands? I'll hire the finest bookbinder I can find."''
*''"'And without any regard for my safety, I fearlessly charged the enemy!' No, much too dramatic..."''
*''"When I rewrite those pages...they'll see what they missed."''
*''"Damn it. How could I be so foolish."''
*''"'Savior of Morrowind.' Hm, that's good but it sounds too narrow of scope..."''
*''"I can't believe I lost those pages."''
*''"Hm, Did I call it 'The Great Hunt' or was it just 'The Hunt?' Bah, I can't remember!"''
*''"I miss my homeland, but I can't say that I miss all the noise!"''

== Notes ==
* Jiub also [[Morrowind:Jiub|appears]] in [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]], where he is the first NPC the player meets.
* Jiub is voiced by [http://www.imdb.com/name/nm1198561/ Jeff Baker], who also voiced [[Shivering:Haskill|Haskill]] in [[Shivering:Shivering Isles|Shivering Isles]] and the male Dunmer (including [[Morrowind:Jiub|Jiub]]) in Morrowind.

{{Stub|NPC}}

General:ESO Audio Team AUA

2017-11-08T08:25:46Z

Kitkat1749:

{{Trail|Interviews}}

''On June 28, 2017, the audio team of [[Online:Online|The Elder Scrolls Online]] held an [https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/6k2gxj/welcome_to_the_eso_audio_team_aua/ Ask Us Anything] at the r/elderscrollsonline subreddit. The following devs were present answering questions:''

*''Brad Derrick, Audio Director & Composer''
*''Bill Mueller, Senior Sound Designer''
*''Brian Brockett, Senior Sound Designer''
*''Josh Smith, Senior Sound Designer''
*''Matt Conway, Senior Sound Designer''
*''Becky Ichnoski, Dialog Coordinator''

==ESO Audio Team AUA==

'''Scarab-Phoenix''': It was a lot of fun to discover the meaning of words in ESO: Morrowind main theme. Will we hear more songs in different languages (like Ald Chimeris) in future?
:'''ZOS_BradDerrick''': Mmmm...hard to say? :) I mean, the Lyrics for the title theme were the brainchild of Lawrence Schick, and were crafted specifically for that purpose. If / when we do another round of bard songs, I suppose that would be a possibility, but that would mean getting our bard singers to sing convincingly in that tongue. On the other hand, then we wouldn't have to localize them into French, German, and Spanish! So maybe you're on to something. :)
::'''ZOS_BradDerrick''': Did I say Spanish? I meant Japanese. Settle down...there's no Spanish client coming, that I'm aware of. :)

----

'''Alarra''': Any news on whether the Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood soundtrack will get a release? I know Brad Derrick had said at one point on the forum that he wasn't sure.
:'''ZOS_BradDerrick''': Despite being very late (and out-of-sequence since the Morrowind OST has been released) it's still coming. I don't have an exact release date, but what I do know is - the longer we wait, the bigger it gets, since every unreleased piece is getting added to that "album". :)
::'''Ixtyr''': That's gonna be a big album.
:::'''ZOS_BradDerrick''': Yes. Yes it is. It will (finally) include the boss fight music as well.

----

'''Ixtyr''': What was your favorite part about working on the Morrowind soundtrack? It's really fantastic, I've been quite enjoying it :)
:'''ZOS_BradDerrick''': Thanks...glad you like it! My favorite part...hm...the downtime in Budapest between sessions that were filled with bathhouse sessions and Thai & Swedish massage? That was pretty great. :) But the sessions themselves were definitely the highlight. Working with a live orchestra, choir, and some unbelievably talented soloists is always an amazing thing...hearing the music complete its journey from crude bare-bones sketches to full-bodied symphonic expressions is an unparalleled experience I'll never grow tired of.

----

'''pigeoncount''': Any auditory easter eggs no one has caught onto yet that you'll share with us now?
:'''ZOS_BeckyIchnoski''': There may just be a shitty flute player in the game somewhere. I may have brought in my sisters flute and the audio team may have recorded my sad attempt at playing "Red Diamonds" that sounds really terrible. So keep your eyes peeled for a NPC trying reeeealllly hard to be a flute player. ;P
:'''ZOS_MattConway''': Hey there pigeoncount! This has probably been picked up on already, but I trolled our sound library and found the sweet, sweet sounds of the Cliff Racer (which is a processed Cockatiel btw) so I just had to attach those to the ambient flying one that is located throughout Vvardenfell. The good news is, in ESO, you won't have tons of them stacking up on top of you making their beautiful sounds all at once. ;)
::'''TheSpaceWhale''': ''"which is a processed Cockatiel btw"'' As a parrot owner this is amazing. Is that from the original Morrowind files? Or did the sound team bring in parrots to record?
:::'''ZOS_JoshuaSmith''': we have recordings of all kinds of different birds that we can draw on to make sounds with. So we have some cockatiel stuff in our libraries that we can work with.
:'''ZOS_BillMueller''': My then 3 year old son is in a few sounds just making random noises

----

'''Alarra''': For the bard voices, I know Malukah was one of the female voices from the base game, and Gideon Emery and Cindy Robinson are two voices in Morrowind. Who are the other bard voices (and which songs did they sing)? I'm very interested in this and would love to be able to add it to the UESP wiki.
:'''ZOS_BeckyIchnoski''': Hi there! Besides the singers you already mentioned, we also had Crispin Freeman, Jim Cummings, and Kari Wahlgren as bard singers. Kari and Jim did 6 songs each for the Ebonheart zones, and Crispin and Malukah each sang all 10 of the launch bard songs.

----

'''ironleviathan89''': I'm sure it wasn't easy to coach the VO artists on pronunciation, considering how many place and NPC names are intentionally designed to invoke an atmosphere that's both foreign and fantasy. How do you handle that aspect of the VO process?
:'''ZOS_BeckyIchnoski''': Hello! Good question! For each update we have our writers submit any pronunciation words to our Pronunciation Guide. Once those are all submitted, we record our loremaster, Lawrence Schick, pronouncing all of those words. We have over 6,500 currently! We then chop them up into nice little .wav files and during the VO sessions when the actor comes across a lore word we will play the file for them so they can hear the pronunciation. That way all actors pronounce everything correctly. :)
::'''ironleviathan89''': Wow! That's a lot of work for a sound bite -- but the quality really shows. The VO work is pretty consistently top-notch. I guess it makes a lot of sense to NOT rely on written pronunciation guides but instead use audio clips. Thanks for the answer!
:::'''ZOS_BeckyIchnoski''': Thanks for you question!
:::'''ZOS_BillMueller''': The amazing part to me is how quickly Lawrence can read off all the words as if they are just normal words he uses everyday. Which now that I think about it, maybe he does?

----

'''butterjoy92''': I love the Mind-Shriven horse, but it's so loud compared to other mounts. Any chance of an adjustment? Also, could the frequency of the same dialogue options in Belkarth be reduced? I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about: Ms. Loses-Her-Shirt and Mr. Float-Out-of-Craglorn.
:'''ZOS_JoshuaSmith''': Mind Shriven is still too loud huh? I keep turning it down. So, here's the little secret about the Mind Shriven. I tried something different with it. It actually has two "voices" one that other people would hear, and a different one that you the person riding it hear. that's the more screechy creepy voice. I have turned it down a few times, but I continue to see messages like this asking if it can be turned down. SO, I will yes, turn it down some more, hopefully this time it'll get down to a non-annoying level. :) I should be able to get it into the next audio package, so look out for that soon.
::'''KRosen333''': if only we could get a "dungeon finder programming team aua" now. Thanks a lot Josh.
:::'''ZOS_JoshuaSmith''': One of our engineers is in the room right now, and he said, "you don't actually want that." programmers are... ... a surly bunch. But hey, I will get that horse turned down.

----

'''PingPongDelay''': Thank you so much for doing this AMA ! Love love the SFX and music in ESO. I've always been fascinated by the process of gathering foley sounds. How was that process for you all in developing ESO? Any specific, fond moments when searching for real-world sounds to put in the game? What was the process on developing the "magic" sounds in the game? As in, the sounds where there was no "real-world" counterpart. How does proximity work with the sound in ESO? Is it handled by the audio middleware, or were there sounds physically recorded at different distances? I appreciate you all taking the time to do an AMA here. Thank you !
:'''ZOS_MattConway''': Hey there, PingPongDelay! Appreciate the compliments!!! First off, we've all contributed to the various ability/magic sounds over the years so I'm sure the other dudes will chime in here as well. :) As for me, my process usually begins with using organic elements (natural sounds like fire, water, wind, etc.) whether that is from library sounds or raw recordings. Then I move on to shaping / mangling those into a serviceable SFX. I sometimes add synthetic elements via virtual instruments to add some tonality as well depending on the context. As far as proximity goes, we utilize a middleware called Wwise to handle our audio playback and behavior at runtime. We still have to tell the sounds what "to do" so-to-speak so things don't get too out of control during gameplay, but Wwise basically handles most everything along with the tools and systems that our Audio Programmer has developed as well. Finally, you're more than welcome! We appreciate your question and moreso, your continued support!! :)
::'''ZOS_GinaBruno''': I'll never forget years ago I opened my car door and it squeaked a little bit, and /u/ZOS_MattConway comes running over saying "that was a great squeak, mind if I record it?"
:::'''ZOS_MattConway''': I have yet to find a place for that squeak in the game. Maybe for Clockwork.... :)
:'''ZOS_JoshuaSmith''': So, as far as foley, unfortunately we don't really have any exciting stories on that front. Due to the nature of making an MMO, we're usually pretty under the gun to get stuff done, so we pull a lot of material out of libraries, and manipulate it from there. We record what we can when we can, usually in our offices, but a lot of the time we're pulling together a lot of disparate sources and combining them to make something new. As far as developing those magical sounds, I tend to mix a lot of different synths in with more natural sounding components to keep things from feeling too Sci-Fi. Once you can see what an ability looks like, and you know what it's supposed to do from a designer, you can, in your mind start coming up with an idea for the sound. Once you have that idea you kind of tease it apart and think, "ok, it would have some kind of "schingy" metal sound, how do I get that..." and you look for some sounds of swords being unsheathed, or metal sliding or banging against metal, for example. Then, drop that into your session, mix it into the sound so as to not obviously be what it is, and work it out from there. Proximity is handled by wwise, most of the sounds are 3d, so they appear in space and play from where they are. we have settings and different types of ambience to be applied depending on where you are. shoof, that is a lot, i'm not even sure i answered your question anymore. :)

----

'''EndSpacedPunctuation''': Could we get a separate volume slider for pets and mounts? Or maybe just a reduction on major culprits like the frog?
:'''ZOS_JoshuaSmith''': So, believe it or not, this is something we have been tossing around doing for some time. It is much harder to get something like this implemented than you might think. It requires multiple teams and people to get it done. When your UI team is already working like crazy, it is hard to get some time to wiggle in a new slider for things like this. It's on the table, it might hopefully get done, but in the meantime I have just been keeping an eye out on what people complain about and turning them down. This is the first time I've seen the frog mentioned, so i will turn that guy down.

----

'''Jeremiah87''': Is there even the slightest possibility of letting addon creators/players have control over music? Something like controlling when which in-game song is played as well as being able to use MP3s(and other formats) to add to the existing score? For those of us who own the OSTs so the Elder Scrolls Games this would be fantastic to add to the feeling of familiar places. For example: *Addon detects player is in Eastmarch or Riften Zones (which belong to Skyrim) *Addon plays music from folder Skyrim (according to sub folders and in/out of combat state like Exploration, Combat, etc.) Right now this would be able to further enhance places like Skyrim, Morrowind and Cyrodiil/Imperial themed zones as these games are recent enough to have high quality soundtracks. Additionally/Alternatvely...In game music packs of the Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim Soundtrack via the crownstore...?
:'''ZOS_BradDerrick''': While this sounds pretty simple on the surface, the complexity of the music system makes something like this unsupportable. If the ESO music system worked in the way you described, then perhaps we could do something like that: IF in <zone>, then point to <user folder> or whatever. But it's just not like that. Sorry. :-/

----

'''JamieAubrey''': Why does the thunder sometimes sound like Siege ? Sometimes I'm alone in a Keep and hear it I dunno if I should panic or drop my staff What is with the PING sound when entering doors in MW PS I'm horrid at asking in depth amazing thought out questions
:'''ZOS_BillMueller''': We just wanted to make sure you are always on your toes when in pvp ;) As far as the ping sound, I honestly am not sure what that is, are you running any mods that might be doing something funny?
::'''JamieAubrey''': It could be an add on,I'll have to test it out with them off or record the sound for you guys to hear
:::'''ZOS_BillMueller''': yea, if you have the ability to record it that would be AWESOME, would help us track it down. Thanks!!!
:'''ZOS_MattConway''': I called that "special thunder" in our project and it's supposed to spook ya! :)

User talk:Zander36989

2017-11-07T20:52:47Z

Kitkat1749: /* Hello! */ new section

== Hello! ==

<div class="plainlinks">Hi, Zander36989! Welcome to UESPWiki! It's always great to have new members. If you'd like to help improve any of our pages, you may want to take a look at the following links:

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As an addendum, I've restored the original redlink for [[Skyrim:Resist_Damage|Skyrim:Resist Damage]] on the [[Dragonborn:Conjure_Seeker|Conjure Seeker]] page, pending a further discussion on the [[Dragonborn_Talk:Conjure_Seeker|talk page]]. Please refrain from reverting it further, without any discussion. Thanks! [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 20:52, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Skyrim:Conjure Seeker

2017-11-07T20:43:43Z

Kitkat1749: Restoring link to it's original state, pending further discussion. Please resolve this on the talk page before any further reversions.

{{Spell Summary
|spellid=xx033c66
|tomeid=xx033c67
|editorid=DLC2ConjureSeeker
|icon=SR-icon-spell-Summon.png
|image=DB-creature-Seeker.jpg
|imgdesc=A Seeker
|type=Offensive
|cast=Fire and Forget
|delivery=Target Location
|equip=Either Hand
|school=Conjuration
|diff=Adept
|duration=60 sec
|range=50 ft
|magnitude=0
|area=0
|cost=157
|charge=0.5
|barter=307
|desc=Summons a [[Dragonborn:Seeker|Seeker]] for 60 seconds wherever the caster is pointing.
|purchase=
|noloot=Yes
|found=Once your Conjuration skill reaches 40, the tome can be found in [[Dragonborn:Apocrypha|Apocrypha]]:
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: Epistolary Acumen (book)|Epistolary Acumen]], Chapter III
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: Filament and Filigree (book)|Filament and Filigree]]
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: The Hidden Twilight (book)|The Hidden Twilight]], Chapter II
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: The Sallow Regent (book)|The Sallow Regent]]
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: Untold Legends (book)|Untold Legends]], Chapter III
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: Waking Dreams (book)|Waking Dreams]], Chapter IV
* [[Dragonborn:Black Book: The Winds of Change (book)|The Winds of Change]]
}}
'''Conjure Seeker''' is an adept level [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]] spell that summons one of [[Lore:Hermaeus Mora|Hermaeus Mora]]'s [[Dragonborn:Seeker|Seekers]] to aid you in combat.

{{NewLeft}}
==Effects==
* [[Skyrim:Summon|Conjure Seeker]], for 60 secs


{{NewLine}}
==Notes==
*This spell is not affected by the [[Skyrim:Twin Souls|Twin Souls]] perk.
*The stats of a summoned Seeker are:
{| class=wikitable width=100%
! Creature ([[Skyrim:Form ID|ID]])
! Lvl
! Carries
! Abilities
! Attacks
! [[Skyrim:Souls|Soul]]
|-
| Seeker {{ID|xx01eec9|par=1}}
|style="text-align:center"| 21
|{{nowrap|Seeker Loot}}
|{{nowrap|
* [[Skyrim:Resist Shock|Resist Shock]] 33%
* [[Skyrim:Resist damage|Resist Damage]] 100%
* [[Skyrim:Waterwalking|Waterwalking]]
* Immune to [[Skyrim:Paralysis|Paralysis]]}}
|
* {{LE|Seeker Drain}} spell (Absorb 3 health, magicka, and stamina for 10 seconds.)
* {{LE|Knowledge Drain}} spell (Health/Magicka Damage, 40 pts; Perk Impact Stagger, 0.5 pts)
|Common
|}

{{Dragonborn Spells}}

Redguard:Characters

2017-11-07T17:34:05Z

Kitkat1749: removed Category:Redirects; added Category:Redirects from Moves using HotCat

#REDIRECT [[Redguard:NPCs]]
[[Category:Redirects from Moves]]

Skyrim:The Apprentice Stone

2017-11-07T08:17:34Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1701459 by 108.196.200.242 (talk) Unnecessary

{{DEFAULTSORT:Apprentice Stone, The}}{{Place Summary
|type=Standing Stone
|zones=
|image=SR-place-The Apprentice Stone.jpg
|imgdesc=The Apprentice Stone
|region=Hjaalmarch
|occupants=
|marker_id=Doomstone
|level=Min: 6
|locationcode=DoomstoneTundraMarsh01
|location=On an island in the marsh, just north of [[Skyrim:Fort Snowhawk|Fort Snowhawk]], west-northwest of [[Skyrim:Morthal|Morthal]].
|description=one of the thirteen [[Skyrim:Standing Stones|Standing Stones]] scattered across Skyrim.}}
[[File:SR-place-The Apprentice Stone (active).jpg|thumb|right|The Apprentice Stone when it's activated]]

''Those under the sign of The Apprentice recover Magicka faster, but are more susceptible to Magicka damage.'' Activating the Apprentice Stone increases [[Skyrim:Regenerate Magicka|magicka regeneration]] by 100% and increases [[Skyrim:Weakness to Magic|weakness to magic]] by 100%.

The stone is set in the typical arrangement of standing stones on the northeast end of a small marsh archipelago. Little else is found here other than plants typical to the marshes of [[Skyrim:Hjaalmarch|Hjaalmarch]]. A [[Skyrim:Deathbell|deathbell]] plant is growing just to the west of the stone structure, at the base of a large tree. Another is at the base of the Apprentice stone itself. [[Skyrim:Swamp Fungal Pod|Swamp fungal pods]] are also growing in the stone's circle and more can be found at the base of a tree just to the right of the circle of stones. A [[Skyrim:Nirnroot|nirnroot]] is found on the shoreline to the southeast of the circle.

{{NewLeft}}
==Notes==
* Although the loading screen tip states the Apprentice Stone doubles both magicka regeneration and magicka, only magicka regeneration is doubled.
* East-southeast of the Stone, a Nordic burial pit has partially sunk into the swamp, and has been taken over by several [[Skyrim:Mudcrab|mud crabs]]. A treasure chest, several burial urns, and a copy of the [[Skyrim:Lockpicking|Lockpicking]] [[Skyrim:Skill_Books|skill book]] ''[[Skyrim:The_Locked_Room|The Locked Room]]'' can be found here.

Skyrim:Followers

2017-11-06T23:05:14Z

Kitkat1749: /* Quest Followers */

{{Trail|NPCs|nocat=1}}[[Category:Skyrim-NPCs| Followers]]{{TOCright}}
[[File:SR-npc-Lydia.jpg|thumb|left|[[Skyrim:Lydia|Lydia]], a typical follower]]Various NPCs and creatures can follow you while you're playing the game and be your ally. These '''followers''' can fight by your side; some can also carry your equipment and perform other tasks. Followers can be divided into those who follow you indefinitely (until they die or are dismissed), and those who follow you temporarily (for example, during a quest).

'''Permanent followers''' usually become available after you complete a [[Skyrim:Quests|quest]] of some kind. You can also find mercenaries for hire in the cities and recruit certain [[#Creatures|creatures]] in the game. You can have at most one permanent NPC follower and one creature follower at any time.

Some NPCs follow you '''temporarily''' for the duration of a quest. If you avoid completing the quest and go somewhere else, they may follow you around. As many of these NPCs are unkillable, and you can have several followers at the same time, you can use them to fight difficult enemies in a different questline. There is no limit to the number of such temporary followers that you can have at one time.

Potential followers will say that you already have a follower and be unable to join you if you are on a quest that gives you a temporary follower. In such cases the quest follower already occupies the follower slot until the quest is completed. For example, in the [[Skyrim:Proving Honor|Proving Honor]] quest, [[Skyrim:Farkas|Farkas]] will occupy the follower slot even if you have not yet gone to meet him at [[Skyrim:Dustman's Cairn|Dustman's Cairn]]. The slot can be freed again simply by completing the quest so that your temporary quest follower leaves your service.

=== Commands ===
You can interact with permanent followers by talking with them (outside of combat). You will then be able to exchange items with them, or give a command, depending on their abilities. You can also start commanding your follower quickly, even from some distance away, by pointing at them and ''holding'' the activate/use control.

'''Orders that can be given to followers:'''

* Attack another NPC or creature
* Wait at a given location
* Resume following
* Activate an object, such as a lever or a chair
* Activate a [[Skyrim:Shrines|Shrine]] for its [[Skyrim:Blessings|blessing]], but not a Standing Stone
* [[Skyrim:Lockpicking|Open]] a locked door or container
* Pick up items
* Search and loot containers
* Sleep in a bed (useful for [[Skyrim:Vampirism|Vampires]])
* Use staves and scrolls
* Fill soul gems including The Black Star and Azura's Star (if a soultrap or fiery soultrap weapon is equipped)
* Chop wood/mine ore (only some followers will do this). The benefit of this is that you can avoid the animation and your follower does not get encumbered. Some followers also do not require a pickaxe or a woodcutter's axe to perform either of these.
* Leave your service (The follower will return to their normal home and routine.)

Two of these commands have secondary benefits in certain situations:
* Followers do not need lockpicks to open containers.
* A follower can pick up a "placed" skill book, which you can then take from their inventory without having to read it first, allowing you to save it for later.

Also, followers can use a torch (only one is needed, it will never deplete). Temporary, quest-specific followers usually do not take orders; if they do, they will only take limited orders, like the "wait" command.

If your follower is left to wait for a long time, a message will appear that the follower has grown tired of waiting and will start walking to their originating location.

You can trade items with some of your followers to equip them with better items or store excess loot. Sometimes, they will refuse to equip the items you give them. Pickpocketing the items you wish them to replace with the improved items can help fix this. It can also allow you to do this with NPCs who will not trade their equipped items with you. However, it requires the Misdirection (for weapons) and Perfect Touch (for armor) perks to achieve this.

Giving a non-essential follower any of your custom enchanted weapons or shields, letting them die, and then looting directly from their corpse is the only way to remove those enchantments on the given items. This only works with weapons and shields that you have enchanted yourself- it will not remove the enchantment on artifacts or generic enchanted gear found or bought.

===Morality===
Morality determines whether or not an NPC will commit various crimes, and controls whether or not a follower will agree to do certain requested actions. There are four possible values for morality:
* '''0''': Any Crime. NPC is willing to commit any requested crime.
* '''1''': Violence Against Enemies. NPC is willing to commit violence against enemies, as well as property crimes. NPC is not willing to attack innocent people.
* '''2''': Property Crime Only. The only crimes the NPC will commit are property crimes (e.g., theft).
* '''3''': No Crime. NPC is not willing to commit any crimes. Followers with this morality will still not report crimes that they witness you committing (with the exception of crimes against them, such as stealing items they own).

However, nearly all followers have a morality of either 0 or 3, the only exception being [[Skyrim:Sven|Sven]].

If you ask a follower with sufficient morality to perform an illegal activity, you may be held responsible for the [[Skyrim:Crime|crime]], and your bounty will increase accordingly. If you are [[Skyrim:Sneak|hidden]], most crimes you command your follower to commit will go unnoticed.

Most followers will not interact in any way with you while you are trespassing (regardless of their morality); your follower will simply say, ''"You're not supposed to be in here."''

== Follower Stats ==
A follower levels up according to your level, up to the follower's maximum level (which varies for each). Each follower, except [[Skyrim:J'zargo|J'zargo]], [[Skyrim:Celann|Celann]]{{DG}}, [[Skyrim:Durak|Durak]]{{DG}}, [[Skyrim:Ingjard|Ingjard]]{{DG}} and [[Dragonborn:Frea|Frea]]{{DB}}, has a maximum level and a specific set of primary skills, which are dictated by their [[Skyrim:Classes|class]]. This leveling occurs regardless if they are actively following you.

Prior to patch 1.6, a follower's skills, health, and other stats were set when they were first spawned (which is typically when you enter their starting cell, become a Thane, and so on) and would not increase as their level increased. Prior to the fixing of this failure of stats to update with patch 1.6, players could update a non-essential follower's stats so they would increase based on their current level by using the [[Skyrim:Wabbajack|Wabbajack]] to polymorph them into another creature, after which their stats would update upon recovering their original form. Players of the PC version could also use certain console commands to fix any follower's inability to update their stats with each level the player gains.

== Follower Death ==
All permanent followers become [[Skyrim:Protected NPCs|protected NPCs]] while they are actively following you. When your follower would die due to an enemy attack or a trap, they will be incapacitated for some time and begin to recover their [[Skyrim:Health|health]], just like essential NPCs; enemies will stop attacking or targeting them during this time. However, if they lose all their health again during this period, they will die for good. Thus, you should try to move the fight away from them, so that they are not hit by a stray arrow or area-effect spell. They can die from a damage-over-time effect that is stronger than their health recovery; most commonly those are caused by poisons.

If you strike your follower dead, on the other hand, there is no recovery. Attack carefully when your follower is low on health. Follower death caused by you, even accidentally, counts as murder on your crimes list. However, it is possible to mitigate damage to your follower with the [[Dragonborn:Companion's_Insight|Companions Insight]]{{DB}} ability if you have read the Black Book ''[[Dragonborn:Black Book: The Winds of Change (book)|The Winds of Change]]''.

Many temporary followers are "essential", so they cannot be killed, only incapacitated for a while. Non-essential ones will die immediately when struck down, just as ordinary NPCs. Seven permanent followers are essential as well: [[Skyrim:Derkeethus|Derkeethus]] (due to a [[Skyrim:Derkeethus#Bugs|bug]]), [[Skyrim:Mjoll the Lioness|Mjoll]], two [[Skyrim:Dark Brotherhood Initiate|Dark Brotherhood Initiates]], [[Skyrim:Cicero|Cicero]], [[Skyrim:Serana|Serana]]{{DG}} and [[DragonBorn:Frea|Frea]]{{DB}} are essential.

It is also possible to heal damage and quickly return the follower into the fight by having traded to them some [[Skyrim:potions|standard healing potions]] (e.g. Potion of Extreme Healing) but not potions you made by alchemy. They will consume the standard potion, heal, and quickly rejoin the battle. Otherwise you may have to wait until all enemies in the area are removed before they recover. You may also use a restoration spell like [[Skyrim:Spells#Healing_Hands|Healing Hands]], [[Skyrim:Spells#Heal_Other|Heal Other]] or [[Skyrim:Spells#Grand Healing|Grand Healing]] on your follower, which is beneficial to you as well since you will gain experience in Restoration. It should be noted, however, that followers will not always drink healing potions if they have any in their inventory, even if they are kneeling and recovering health, so the best bet would be to have Healing Hands ready for use.

Followers do not take Water Damage, and cannot drown. However, they do not have infinite breath (with the exception of Derkeethus, the only Argonian follower) unless you give them a waterbreathing enchantment to wear (see '''Follower Equipment''' below). If they run out of air, they will abandon their post by your side and swim to the surface.

To avoid near death experiences, followers should be traded better armor in the skill type they prefer (either heavy or light armor.) The DamageResist variable can be increased by tempering the armor and shield. In addition, wearing armor pieces or shield awards a hidden 25 bonus points per item. The 125 possible hidden points are not reflected in the DamageResist variable, but are counted in combat. Providing equipment with magic resistance enchantments (ring, necklace, and shield) increases their MagicResist variable. The follower is less likely to be incapacitated if provided all of these enhancements.

Should your follower be slain, their body should disappear in about three days. Their coffin with their belongings will most likely be found in the Hall of the Dead in or near their home town.

==Follower Equipment==
Permanent followers have the ability to trade money and goods. This gives you free access to anything the follower is carrying, with the exception of certain default items that are hidden from you, and allows you to manage the follower's inventory. There is no penalty for taking anything the follower has, including gold, jewels, and enchanted items.

In addition to any other equipment they may have, followers will automatically receive a [[Skyrim:Hunting Bow|hunting bow]] and 12 [[Skyrim:Iron Arrow|iron arrows]] when they start following you. These are specially modified variants of the regular ones which do not appear in the follower's inventory. This can cause the [[Skyrim:Followers#Bugs|bow and arrow usage bugs]] noted below. The bow and arrows will be removed when the follower leaves your service.

Followers will make their own decision however about which equipment they use, given the choices that they have in their inventory. If they have multiple items of the same type (e.g. an Iron Sword and a Steel Sword), they will try to choose the "best" item from their choices (Steel Sword). Sometimes this doesn't work as expected and inferior equipment gets used instead. This normally happens with different grades of the same item that have been improved through Smithing or Enchantment (e.g. a Steel Sword being used instead of a Flawless Steel Sword). You cannot force a follower to use the "right" item other than by removing all the wrong ones that they prefer from their inventory. The item must also be "better" than the default item the follower started with. Giving a follower who started with Steel Armor a set of Banded Iron Armor will have no effect because it isn't as "good" as the Steel.
*'''''Note:''' since all the different types of mage robes are classified as clothing with no armor value, giving a mage follower who starts with apprentice robes a new set of master robes has no effect because it's not seen as an improvement on the class of armor (exception: the [[Skyrim:Archmage's Robes|Archmage's Robes]]{{vn|section=Followers Equipping Archmage's Robes}}). They normally can, however, be given actual armor (such as leather, elven, glass, etc.) with improved enchantments on it, which many will equip due to the higher armor value.'' The exception is mage followers who begin with hooded robes; if you give them an item which fills the head slot (a hood or a circlet), they will equip it in preference to the hooded robes, which then causes them to have an empty torso slot, and they will equip torso items (like robes) in preference to nothing at all. If you give them (non-armor) torso slot items without giving them a head slot item, they will keep their hooded robes equipped.

Normally, you cannot take a follower's default apparel - unless they are killed in battle. Then you can search their body, removing anything they were carrying, including their default items. There is one other exception to this rule: your spouse. After you get married, your follower spouse will open up a general goods store, in which your spouse will sell whatever items are not equipped in addition to what's in your spouse's merchant chest (if you're at home). If you get your spouse to wear something that isn't default apparel (normally you do this by giving your spouse an improved piece of armor) then the default apparel that isn't being worn will become available for sale. You can then purchase it, and then give your spouse anything to wear in that slot and your spouse will wear it while following you. There are two caveats with this approach: one, if you purchase all of your spouse's default apparel, your spouse will respawn new default apparel, so you must leave at least one piece of default apparel in your spouse's inventory, and two, if your spouse is not following you, your spouse will not wear any custom apparel, but will only wear whatever default apparel is left in your spouse's inventory.

===Enchanted Follower Equipment===
[[Skyrim:Enchanting Effects|Enchantments]] on weapons work normally, but followers will only benefit from the following enchantment effects on their apparel and armor:
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Carry Weight|Fortify Carry Weight]]—effect works, but once unfortified limit is exceeded, only one item or stack of items can be added, then menu must be closed and reopened to add more, up to fortified limit.
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Health|Fortify Health]]
*[[Skyrim:Regenerate_Health|Fortify Health Regeneration]]—only works during recovery phase/out of combat
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Heavy Armor|Fortify Heavy Armor]]
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Light Armor|Fortify Light Armor]]
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Magicka|Fortify Magicka]]
*[[Skyrim:Regenerate_Magicka|Fortify Magicka Regeneration]]
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Stamina|Fortify Stamina]]
*[[Skyrim:Regenerate_Stamina|Fortify Stamina Regeneration]]
*[[Skyrim:Fortify Unarmed Damage|Fortify Unarmed Damage]]
*[[Skyrim:Muffle (effect)|Muffle]]
*[[Skyrim:Resist Fire|Resist Fire]]
*[[Skyrim:Resist Frost|Resist Frost]]
*[[Skyrim:Resist Magic|Resist Magic]]
*[[Skyrim:Resist Poison|Resist Poison]]
*[[Skyrim:Resist Shock|Resist Shock]]
*[[Skyrim:Waterbreathing (effect)|Waterbreathing]]—followers can't drown, but this stops them surfacing for air
*[[Skyrim:Waterwalking|Waterwalking]]—however, there is only [[Dragonborn:Ahzidal's Boots of Waterwalking|one]] Waterwalking enchanted item in the game, which can not be disenchanted

Because followers choose which items to equip, verify that your follower equips the enchanted item(s).

All other enchantments on apparel and armor do not actually have an effect for followers, even if they should. Notably, this means:
*Fortify <Combat Skill> does not increase the amount of damage they do.
*Fortify <Magic School> does not reduce enchanted weapon usage cost at all, or remove it at values of 100%.
**There are reports that this effect does work for some followers, but very few. See [[Skyrim_talk:Followers/Archive_7#Fortify_Destruction_.28and_probably_all_other_schools.29|one of the archived discussion pages]] for more information.
*There are reports that damage enchantments on bows do work for followers with the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]] add-on. Some report it only works for them with add-on bows, though others have reported it with vanilla bows as well.

==Trainer Followers==
Followers who are also [[Skyrim:Trainers|trainers]] can train you for "free".{{intnote|USKP|†}} They will still charge you, but leave profit from training in their inventory. Simply request to see their inventory while they are an active follower, and take your gold back from any training sessions. Note that the follower's gold will reset to a low amount when you fast travel (possibly change zone), so get your money back from them quickly. This can be done with the following NPCs:

*[[Skyrim:Companions|Companions]] members
**[[Skyrim:Aela_the_Huntress|Aela the Huntress]] (Archery - up to 75)
**[[Skyrim:Athis|Athis]] (One-handed - up to 75)
**[[Skyrim:Farkas|Farkas]] (Heavy Armor - up to 90)
**[[Skyrim:Njada_Stonearm|Njada Stonearm]] (Block - up to 75)
**[[Skyrim:Vilkas|Vilkas]] (Two-handed - up to 90)

*Other NPCs
**[[Skyrim:Faendal|Faendal]] (Archery - up to 50)
**[[Dragonborn:Talvas_Fathryon|Talvas Fathryon]]{{DB}} (Conjuration - up to 90)

== Permanent Followers ==
The tables below list the permanent followers available in Skyrim.

=== College of Winterhold Followers ===
Once enrolled as a member of the [[Skyrim:College of Winterhold (faction)|College of Winterhold]], your fellow students can join you, but you must first complete their specific quest. Simply talk to them and they’ll tell you what you must do.

These followers wear robes as their default apparel, so they will accept any armor given to them; however, they will not equip any other robes, since all robes have an armor rating of "0". They will accept weapons and shields, but they will immediately switch back to dual-wielding spells when an enemy is encountered. Once their Magicka runs out, they will resort to using their bare hands until it recharges.

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:160px"|Name
!Description
!Primary Skills
!Prerequisite Quest
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|Moral}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Brelyna Maryon|Brelyna Maryon]]||A female Dunmer [[Skyrim:CombatMystic|Mystic]].||'''[[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Illusion|Illusion]]''', [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]||[[Skyrim:Brelyna's_Practice|Brelyna's Practice]]||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center"|0||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:J'zargo|J'zargo]]||A male Khajiit [[Skyrim:CombatSorcerer|Sorcerer]].||'''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Illusion|Illusion]]''', [[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||[[Skyrim:J'zargo's_Experiment|J'zargo's Experiment]]||style="text-align:center"|None{{Intnote|J'zargo}}||style="text-align:center"|0|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Onmund|Onmund]]||A male Nord [[Skyrim:CombatSorcerer|Sorcerer]].||'''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Illusion|Illusion]]''', [[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||[[Skyrim:Onmund's_Request|Onmund's Request]]||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center"|0||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|}
{{Note|J'zargo||Version 1.0 of the [[Skyrim:USKP|Unofficial Skyrim Patch]] caps J'zargo's level at 30.}}

=== Companions Followers ===
All of these followers can be located at [[Skyrim:Jorrvaskr|Jorrvaskr]], the [[Skyrim:Companions|Companions]] faction headquarters in Whiterun. You must join the Companions and complete the quest line before they can be recruited as followers.

*Members of the Circle have a maximum level of '''50'''. Other Companions have maximum levels of '''25'''.
* All followers from the Companions faction have a Morality value of '''3''': No Crime. NPC is not willing to commit any crimes. Followers with this morality will still not report crimes that they witness you committing (with the exception of crimes against them, such as stealing items owned by the follower).

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:160px"|Name
!Description
!Primary Skills
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Aela the Huntress|Aela the Huntress]]||A female Nord [[Skyrim:TrainerMarksmanExpert|Thief]] and expert [[Skyrim:archery|Archery]] trainer.||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]], [[Skyrim:Speech|Speech]]||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Athis|Athis]]||A male Dunmer [[Skyrim:TrainerOneHandedExpert|Warrior]] (1H) and expert [[Skyrim:one-handed|One-handed]] trainer.||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Farkas|Farkas]]||A male Nord of the [[Skyrim:TrainerHeavyArmorMaster|Blacksmith]] class, and master [[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]] trainer.||'''[[Skyrim:Smithing|Smithing]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Speech|Speech]]''', [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]], [[Skyrim:Pickpocket|Pickpocket]]||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Njada Stonearm|Njada Stonearm]]||A female Nord [[Skyrim:TrainerBlockExpert|Warrior]] (1H) and expert [[Skyrim:block|Block]] trainer.||'''[[Skyrim:Block|Block]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Speech|Speech]]''', [[Skyrim:Pickpocket|Pickpocket]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ria|Ria]]||A female Imperial [[Skyrim:CombatWarrior1H|Warrior]] (1H).||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Torvar|Torvar]]||A male Nord [[Skyrim:CombatWarrior1H|Warrior]] (1H).||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Vilkas|Vilkas]]||A male Nord [[Skyrim:TrainerTwoHandedMaster|Warrior]] (2H) and master [[Skyrim:two-handed|Two-handed]] trainer.||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|}

=== Dark Brotherhood Followers ===
Complete all the quests for the Dark Brotherhood to allow these followers to join you.
{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!Name
!Description
!Primary Skills
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|Moral}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Cicero|Cicero]]||A male Imperial Assassin found at the [[Skyrim:Dawnstar_Sanctuary|Dawnstar Sanctuary]].||'''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |0||||||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Dark_Brotherhood_Initiate|Dark Brotherhood Initiate]] (female)||A Nord Assassin found at the Dawnstar Sanctuary.||'''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]||style="text-align:center"|100||style="text-align:center" |0||||||
|-
|Dark Brotherhood Initiate (male)||A Nord Assassin found at the Dawnstar Sanctuary.||'''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]||style="text-align:center"|100||style="text-align:center" |0||||||
|}

=== Dawnguard Followers ===
These NPCs are added by the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard add-on]]. For creature followers added by Dawnguard, see [[#Creatures|this section]].
{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!Name
!Description
!Primary Skills
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|Moral}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Agmaer|Agmaer]]||A male Nord found in [[Skyrim:Fort_Dawnguard|Fort Dawnguard]]. ([[Skyrim:Classes#Bandit|Bandit]] class) ||'''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center" |0||style="text-align:center"|''||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Beleval|Beleval]]||A female Bosmer found in Fort Dawnguard. ([[Skyrim:Classes#Bandit|Bandit]] class)||'''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center" |0||style="text-align:center"|''||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Celann|Celann]]||A male Breton found in Fort Dawnguard. ([[Skyrim:Warrior_(class)|Warrior(1H)]] class)||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|None||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|''||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Durak|Durak]]||A male Orc found in Fort Dawnguard. ([[Skyrim:Ranger (class)|Ranger]] class)||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||style="text-align:center"|None||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|''||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ingjard|Ingjard]]||A female Nord in Fort Dawnguard. ([[Skyrim:Warrior_(class)|Warrior(2H)]] class)||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|None||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|''||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Serana|Serana]]||A female Nord [[Skyrim:Vampire|vampire]] found during the quest [[Skyrim:Awakening|Awakening]]. Forced follower during [[Skyrim:Bloodline|Bloodline]], [[Skyrim:Chasing Echoes‎|Chasing Echoes‎]], [[Skyrim:Beyond Death‎|Beyond Death‎]], [[Skyrim:Unseen Visions‎|Unseen Visions‎]], [[Skyrim:Touching the Sky‎|Touching the Sky‎]], [[Skyrim:Kindred Judgment‎|Kindred Judgment‎]].{{vn|all of them?}} ([[Skyrim:Classes#Vampire|Vampire class]])||'''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|''||||
|}

===Dragonborn Followers===
These NPCs are added by [[Dragonborn:Dragonborn|Dragonborn]].

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!Name
!style="width:295px"|Description
!Primary Skills
!Prerequisite Quest
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|[[Skyrim:Morality|Moral]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Frea|Frea]] || A female [[Dragonborn:Nord|Nord]] [[Dragonborn:Frea_Combat_Style|warrior]] from [[Dragonborn:Skaal_Village|Skaal Village]]. Temporary follower during [[Dragonborn:The_Temple_of_Miraak|The Temple of Miraak]]. || '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]]''', [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]], [[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]] || [[Dragonborn:The Fate of the Skaal|The Fate of the Skaal]] || None || style="text-align:center"|3 || || style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Talvas Fathryon|Talvas Fathryon]] || A male [[Skyrim:Dunmer|Dunmer]] [[Skyrim:TrainerConjurationMaster|conjurer]] found in [[Dragonborn:Tel Mithryn (tower)|Tel Mithryn]]. || '''[[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]]''', [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]] || [[Dragonborn:From the Ashes|From the Ashes]] || style="text-align:center"|25 || style="text-align:center"|3 || || style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} || style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Teldryn Sero|Teldryn Sero]] || A male [[Skyrim:Dunmer|Dunmer]] [[Dragonborn:Spellsword|spellsword]] found in [[Dragonborn:The Retching Netch|the Retching Netch]] in [[Dragonborn:Raven Rock|Raven Rock]]. Can be hired for 500 gold. || '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]] || None || style="text-align:center"|60 ||style="text-align:center"|0 || || style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} || style="text-align:center"|

|-
|[[Dragonborn:Ralis Sedarys|Ralis Sedarys]] ||A male [[Skyrim:Dunmer|Dunmer]] miner initially found at [[Dragonborn:Kolbjorn_Barrow|Kolbjorn Barrow]]. || '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]] || [[Dragonborn:Unearthed|Unearthed]] || style="text-align:center"|60 ||style="text-align:center"|3 || || style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} || style="text-align:center"|
|}

=== Dungeon Followers ===
You will have to complete the quest associated with each follower in order for them to join you.
{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!Name
!Description
!Primary Skills
!Prerequisite Quest
!style="width:1px"|Level
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|Moral}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Golldir|Golldir]]||A male Nord [[Skyrim:CombatWarrior1H|Warrior]] (1H) found in [[Skyrim:Hillgrund's Tomb|Hillgrund’s Tomb]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||[[Skyrim:Ancestral_Worship|Ancestral Worship]]||PC×1.0||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3||||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Illia|Illia]]||A female Imperial [[Skyrim:CombatMageElemental|Mage]] found in [[Skyrim:Darklight Tower|Darklight Tower]].||'''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]]''', [[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]], [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]]||[[Skyrim:Repentance|Repentance]]||PC×1.0||style="text-align:center"|40||style="text-align:center"|3||||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|}

=== Hirelings ===
Hirelings are mercenaries; you’ll need to hire them for a set price of 500 gold. They are usually found in taverns. They’ll stick around until they’re dismissed, at which point they'll return to their starting location and you’ll need to pay the fee again to get them back. If they're particularly fond of you or you only dismissed them a short time ago, they may rejoin your service free of charge.

*The maximum level of all hirelings listed here is '''40'''.
*All hirelings have a Morality value of '''0''': Any Crime. NPC is willing to commit any requested crime.

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!Name
!Description
!Primary Skills
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Belrand|Belrand]]|| A male Nord [[Skyrim:NPCclassBelrand|Spellsword]] found in the [[Skyrim:The Winking Skeever|Winking Skeever]] in [[Skyrim:Solitude|Solitude]].||'''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]]||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Erik the Slayer|Erik the Slayer]]|| A male Nord [[Skyrim:Barbarian|Barbarian]] found in [[Skyrim:Rorikstead|Rorikstead]] at the [[Skyrim:Frostfruit Inn|Frostfruit Inn]] after completing [[Skyrim:Erik_the_Slayer_(quest)|his quest]].||'''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Jenassa|Jenassa]]|| A female Dunmer [[Skyrim:CombatRanger|Ranger]] found inside the [[Skyrim:The Drunken Huntsman|Drunken Huntsman]] in [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]]. ||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Marcurio|Marcurio]]||A male Imperial [[Skyrim:CombatMageDestruction|Destruction Mage]] found at [[Skyrim: The Bee and Barb|The Bee and Barb]] in [[Skyrim: Riften|Riften]].|| '''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]]''', [[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Stenvar|Stenvar]]|| A male Nord [[Skyrim:CombatWarrior2H|Warrior]] (2H) in [[Skyrim:Windhelm|Windhelm]] (usually on the second floor of [[Skyrim:Candlehearth Hall|Candlehearth Hall]]). ||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Vorstag|Vorstag]]||A male Nord [[Skyrim:CombatWarrior1H|Warrior]] (1H) found at the [[Skyrim:Silver-Blood Inn|Silver-Blood Inn]] in [[Skyrim:Markarth|Markarth]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|}

=== Housecarls ===
[[Skyrim:Housecarl|Housecarls]] are bodyguards of noblemen. After completing a quest for the jarl of each major hold, they will proclaim you a thane of their land and give you a personal housecarl. These housecarls won't exist in the game until you become a thane; however if you lose your thane status in their original hold, they will remain and will continue to be available as a follower, and will also continue to address you as thane. Three new housecarls are available after installing the [[Skyrim:Hearthfire|Hearthfire]] add-on.

*All player personal housecarls are [[Skyrim:CombatWarrior1H|warriors]] who specialize in [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]] weapons (except [[Skyrim:Valdimar|Valdimar]]{{HF}}).
*Their primary skills are: '''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]] (except Valdimar).
*The maximum level of all housecarls is '''50'''.
*All housecarls have a Morality value of '''0''': Any Crime. NPC is willing to commit any requested crime.

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:160px"|Name
!Description
!Prerequisite quest
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Argis the Bulwark|Argis the Bulwark]]||A male Nord found in [[Skyrim:Markarth|Markarth]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_the_Reach|Become Thane of the Reach]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Calder|Calder]]||A male Nord found in [[Skyrim:Windhelm|Windhelm]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_Eastmarch|Become Thane of Eastmarch]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Gregor|Gregor]]{{HF}}||A male Nord found in [[Skyrim:Dawnstar|Dawnstar]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_the_Pale|Become Thane of the Pale]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Iona|Iona]]||A female Nord found in [[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_the_Rift|Become Thane of the Rift]] ||style="text-align:center"| {{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Jordis the Sword-Maiden|Jordis the Sword-Maiden]]||A female Nord found in [[Skyrim:Solitude|Solitude]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_Haafingar|Become Thane of Haafingar]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Lydia|Lydia]]||A female Nord found in [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]].||[[Skyrim:Dragon Rising|Dragon Rising]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{Yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Rayya|Rayya]]{{HF}}||A female Redguard found in [[Skyrim:Falkreath|Falkreath]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_Falkreath|Become Thane of Falkreath]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Valdimar|Valdimar]]{{HF}}||A male Nord found in [[Skyrim:Morthal|Morthal]].|| [[Skyrim:Thane_of_Hjaalmarch|Become Thane of Hjaalmarch]] ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|}

=== Orc Stronghold Followers ===
These orcs are available from their respective [[Skyrim:Orc Strongholds|strongholds]], and each require the relevant quests to be completed in order to be recruited.
*All Orc stronghold followers have a maximum level of '''30'''.
*All Orc stronghold followers have a Morality value of 3: No Crime. NPC is not willing to commit any crimes. Followers with this morality will still not report crimes that they witness you committing (with the exception of crimes against them, such as stealing items owned by the follower).
{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:140px"|Name
!Description
!style="width:260px"|Primary Skills
!style="width:160px"|Prerequisite Quest
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Borgakh the Steel Heart|Borgakh the Steel Heart]]||A female Orc Warrior found in [[Skyrim:Mor_Khazgur|Mor Khazgur]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]||Pay her dowry or pass a persuade check.||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ghorbash the Iron Hand|Ghorbash the Iron Hand]]||A male Orc Ranger found in [[Skyrim:Dushnikh_Yal|Dushnikh Yal]].||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||Convince him (via brawl, persuade check, or bribe).||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Lob|Lob]]||A male Orc Ranger found in [[Skyrim:Largashbur|Largashbur]].||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||[[Skyrim:The_Cursed_Tribe|The Cursed Tribe]]|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ogol|Ogol]]||A male Orc Warrior found in Largashbur.||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]||The Cursed Tribe|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ugor|Ugor]]||A female Orc Ranger in Largashbur.||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||The Cursed Tribe|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|}

=== Miscellaneous Followers ===
To convince these followers to join you, you’ll need to complete their quests.
{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:140px"|Name
!Description
!style="width:260px"|Primary Skills
!style="width:160px"|Prerequisite Quest
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|Moral}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Marriageable|[[Skyrim:Marriage|Marry]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Join Blades|[[Skyrim:Rebuilding_the_Blades|Blades]]}}
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Steward|[[Skyrim:Personal Steward|Steward]]}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim: Adelaisa_Vendicci|Adelaisa Vendicci]]||A female Imperial who works for the [[Skyrim:East_Empire_Company_(place)|East Empire Company]].||'''[[Skyrim:Alchemy|Alchemy]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Enchanting|Enchanting]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Smithing|Smithing]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]], [[Skyrim:Speech|Speech]]||[[Skyrim:Rise in the East|Rise in the East]]||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ahtar|Ahtar]]||A male Redguard Warrior who is found in [[Skyrim:Solitude|Solitude]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||[[Skyrim:Kill_the_Bandit_Leader|Kill the Bandit Leader]]†||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|
|-
|[[Skyrim:Annekke Crag-Jumper|Annekke Crag-Jumper]]||A female Nord Ranger found in [[Skyrim:Darkwater_Crossing|Darkwater Crossing]].||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||Kill the Bandit Leader†||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3 || ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Aranea Ienith|Aranea Ienith]]||A female Dunmer Conjuration Mage found at the [[Skyrim:Shrine_of_Azura|Shrine of Azura]].||'''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]]''', [[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]], [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]]||[[Skyrim:The Black Star|The Black Star]] (in her favor)||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |0|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Benor|Benor]]|| A male Nord Warrior found in [[Skyrim:Morthal|Morthal]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||[[Skyrim:Fight!_Fight!|Fight! Fight!]]||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |0||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Cosnach|Cosnach]]||An alcoholic male Breton Warrior found in [[Skyrim:Markarth|Markarth]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||[[Skyrim:Quest_all_Drunks_Have|Quest all Drunks Have]] (''or'') Fight! Fight!||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Derkeethus|Derkeethus]]||A male Argonian Ranger found in [[Skyrim:Darkwater_Pass|Darkwater Pass]].||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||[[Skyrim:Extracting_an_Argonian|Extracting an Argonian]]||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Eola|Eola]]||A female Breton Nightblade found in Markarth's [[Skyrim:Hall_of_the_Dead_(Markarth)|Hall of the Dead]].||'''[[Skyrim:Destruction|Destruction]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]||[[Skyrim:The Taste of Death|The Taste of Death]]||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |0|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Erandur|Erandur]]||A male Dunmer [[Skyrim:Priest|Priest]] found in [[Skyrim:Dawnstar|Dawnstar]].||'''[[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Speech|Speech]]''', [[Skyrim:Alchemy|Alchemy]], [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]], [[Skyrim:Smithing|Smithing]]|| [[Skyrim:Waking_Nightmare|Waking Nightmare]] (in his favor)||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Faendal|Faendal]]||A male Bosmer Thief found in [[Skyrim:Riverwood|Riverwood]]. He is a common Archery trainer.||'''[[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]''', [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]], [[Skyrim:Speech|Speech]]||[[Skyrim:A_Lovely_Letter|A Lovely Letter]] (in his favor)||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Kharjo|Kharjo]]||A male Khajiit Warrior traveling between cities in [[Skyrim:Ahkari|Ahkari]]'s [[Skyrim:Khajiit Traders|Khajiit caravan]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||[[Skyrim:Amulet_of_the_Moon|Amulet of the Moon]]||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Mjoll the Lioness|Mjoll the Lioness]]||A female Nord Warrior found in [[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||[[Skyrim:Grimsever's_Return|Grimsever's Return]]||style="text-align:center"|40||style="text-align:center" |0||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|
|-
|[[Skyrim:Roggi Knot-Beard|Roggi Knot-Beard]]||A male Nord Miner found in [[Skyrim:Kynesgrove|Kynesgrove]].||'''[[Skyrim:Alchemy|Alchemy]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Enchanting|Enchanting]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Smithing|Smithing]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]], [[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]||[[Skyrim:Dungeon_Delving_(Caves)|Dungeon Delving (Caves)]]†||style="text-align:center"|20||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Sven|Sven]]|| A male Nord Bard found in Riverwood.||'''[[Skyrim:Alchemy|Alchemy]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Enchanting|Enchanting]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Smithing|Smithing]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]], [[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]||[[Skyrim:A_Lovely_Letter|A Lovely Letter]] (in his favor)||style="text-align:center"|20||style="text-align:center" |2|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Uthgerd the Unbroken|Uthgerd the Unbroken]]||A female Nord Warrior found in [[Skyrim:The_Bannered_Mare|The Bannered Mare]] in [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]].||'''[[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Archery|Archery]], [[Skyrim:Block|Block]]||Fight! Fight!||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"| {{Yes}}
|}
†Only one quest of this type can be active at a time.

===Creatures===
In addition to NPC followers, certain [[Skyrim:Creatures|creatures]] are also recruitable. You can have at most one permanent NPC follower and one creature follower at any time.
*If kept as a pet{{HF}}, they will return to your home when dismissed, and be available whenever you want them.

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:100px"|Name
!Recruitment
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Pet|Pet}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Armored Troll|Armored Troll]]{{DG}}||Can be purchased from [[Skyrim:Gunmar|Gunmar]] in [[Skyrim:Fort_Dawnguard|Fort Dawnguard]] for 500 gold. The player may be given an Armored Frost Troll instead.||style="text-align:center"|14 ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Armored Frost Troll|Armored Frost Troll]]{{DG}}||Can be purchased from [[Skyrim:Gunmar|Gunmar]] in [[Skyrim:Fort_Dawnguard|Fort Dawnguard]] for 500 gold. The player may be given an Armored Troll instead.||style="text-align:center"|22 ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Bran|Bran]]{{DG}}||An armored [[Skyrim:Husky|husky]] in Fort Dawnguard.||style="text-align:center"|25 || {{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:CuSith|CuSith]]{{DG}}||A [[Skyrim:Death_Hound|Death Hound]] in [[Skyrim:Volkihar_Keep|Volkihar Keep]].||style="text-align:center"|5 ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Garmr|Garmr]]{{DG}}||A Death Hound in Volkihar Keep.||style="text-align:center"|5 ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Meeko|Meeko]]||A [[Skyrim:Dog|dog]] that can be found at [[Skyrim:Meeko's Shack|Meeko's Shack]].||style="text-align:center"|25 || {{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Sceolang|Sceolang]]{{DG}}||An armored husky in Fort Dawnguard.||style="text-align:center"|25 || {{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Stray Dog|Stray Dog]]||These can be found in a random encounter in the wilderness. If you talk to one, it will become your follower. Note: Will disappear if told to wait and you enter a dungeon.||style="text-align:center"|25 || {{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Vigilance|Vigilance]]||A dog which can be purchased from [[Skyrim:Banning|Banning]] at the Markarth stables for 500 gold. As with the hirelings, if you dismiss Vigilance, he will return to Banning and you must pay the 500 gold again to get him back.||style="text-align:center"|50 || {{yes}}
|}
{{LE||Dragonborn Creatures}}
====Dragonborn====
{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!Name
!Description
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Can Become a Pet|Pet}}{{HF}}
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Riekling Warrior|Riekling Warrior]] || A Riekling which can be recruited at [[Dragonborn:Thirsk Mead Hall|Thirsk Mead Hall]] after completing [[Dragonborn:The Chief of Thirsk Hall|The Chief of Thirsk Hall]]. || style="text-align:center"|23 ||
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Steadfast Dwarven Sphere|Steadfast Dwarven Sphere]] ||rowspan=2| Friendly Dwarven automatons found in [[Dragonborn:Kagrumez|Kagrumez]] during [[Dragonborn:The Kagrumez Gauntlet|The Kagrumez Gauntlet]]. || style="text-align:center"|30 ||
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Steadfast Dwarven Spider|Steadfast Dwarven Spider]] || style="text-align:center"|16 ||
|}

==== Glitches ====
* The hitbox of dog followers is larger than the dog as a visual object; thus, if a dog follower is between you and an intended target, you may hit the dog even when it appears to be peripheral to your line of sight.
* There is a bug that may affect any adopted dog. See the [[Skyrim:Dog#Bugs|Dog]] article for details.

== Quest Followers ==
{{incomplete}}
Some NPCs follow you until a quest is completed or an event occurs. Quest followers will not give you access to their inventory. Generally they are marked as essential so they cannot die and may be useful to have around before finishing their related quest.

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:120px"|Name
!style="width:140px"|Quest(s)
!Notes
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|[[Skyrim:Morality|Moral]]}}
!style="width:1px"|[[Dragonborn:Essential_NPCs|Essential]]
!style="width:80px" | Usable in Other Quests
|-
|[[Skyrim:Avulstein_Gray-Mane|Avulstein Gray-Mane]]||[[Skyrim:Missing_In_Action|Missing in Action]]|| ||style="text-align:center"|100||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Brother Verulus|Brother Verulus]]||[[Skyrim:The Taste of Death|The Taste of Death]]||In order to recruit him, you must first pass a [[Skyrim:The_Taste_of_Death#Champion_of_Namira|speech check]].||style="text-align:center"|6||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Brynjolf|Brynjolf]]||[[Skyrim:Trinity Restored|Trinity Restored]]||After talking to [[Skyrim:Karliah|Karliah]] outside [[Skyrim:Nightingale Hall|Nightingale Hall]], he starts following you.||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Delphine|Delphine]]||[[Skyrim:Alduin's_Wall|Alduin's Wall]]|| ||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Enmon|Enmon]]||[[Skyrim:The Heart of Dibella|The Heart of Dibella]]|| Enmon may join you when you offer to liberate [[Skyrim:Fjotra|Fjotra]] from her Forsworn captors.||style="text-align:center"|15||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Esbern|Esbern]]||[[Skyrim:A Cornered Rat|A Cornered Rat]] [[Skyrim:Alduin's_Wall|Alduin's Wall]]|| Esbern will follow you wherever you go in A Cornered Rat, but when he joins up with Delphine in Alduin's Wall he will only stay with you as long as you are heading towards the wall, which prevents him from being used in most other quests.||style="text-align:center"|30||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Geirlund|Geirlund]]||[[Skyrim:Missing_In_Action|Missing in Action]]||He meets up with you when you meet Avulstein Gray-Mane outside of [[Skyrim:Northwatch_Keep|Northwatch Keep]] (if you agreed to have him along to help you).||style="text-align:center"|1||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Hadvar|Hadvar]]||[[Skyrim:Unbound|Unbound]]||Accompanies you if you chose him during the opening sequence in [[Skyrim:Helgen|Helgen]]. If you side with the Imperials in the [[Skyrim:Civil War|Civil War]], he will also join you on several related quests. ||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Karliah|Karliah]]||[[Skyrim:Blindsighted|Blindsighted]]||After talking to her in [[Skyrim:Irkngthand|Irkngthand]], she starts following you.||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Maurice_Jondrelle|Maurice Jondrelle]]||[[Skyrim:The_Blessings_of_Nature|The Blessings of Nature]]||After retrieving [[Skyrim:Nettlebane|Nettlebane]] and talking to [[Skyrim:Danica_Pure-Spring|Danica Pure-Spring]], he will engage you in conversation and ask to come with you.||style="text-align:center"|15||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Mercer_Frey|Mercer Frey]]||[[Skyrim:Speaking_With_Silence|Speaking With Silence]]||Follows after helping you break into Snow Veil Sanctum.||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Ralof|Ralof]]||[[Skyrim:Unbound|Unbound]]||Accompanies you if you chose him during the opening sequence in Helgen. If you side with the Stormcloaks in the Civil War, he will also join you on several related quests.||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Sinding|Sinding]]||[[Skyrim:Ill_Met_By_Moonlight|Ill Met By Moonlight]]||Briefly follows you for the duration of the quest, if you choose to spare him and turn the tables on the hunters. He will be in [[Skyrim:Werewolf|werewolf]] form, and is capable of flinging opponents across distances much like a player werewolf, although his throw attack is not fatal.||style="text-align:center"|1||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Thonnir|Thonnir]]||[[Skyrim:Laid_to_Rest|Laid to Rest]]|| ||style="text-align:center"|3||style="text-align:center" |3||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}} ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Thorald_Gray-Mane|Thorald Gray-Mane]]||[[Skyrim:Missing_In_Action|Missing in Action]]||If he dies, you will fail the quest. Avulstein Gray-Mane, Geirlund, and Vidrald will also stop following you.||style="text-align:center"|50||style="text-align:center" |3|| ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Valdr|Valdr]]||[[Skyrim:Moss Mother Cavern (quest)|Moss Mother Cavern]]||After healing him, you can opt for him to accompany you into the cavern.||style="text-align:center"|25||style="text-align:center"|3|| ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Vidrald|Vidrald]]||[[Skyrim:Missing_In_Action|Missing in Action]]||He meets up with you when you meet Avulstein Gray-Mane outside of Northwatch Keep (if you agreed to have him along to help you).||style="text-align:center"|None||style="text-align:center"|3|| ||
|-
!colspan=7|Animal Followers
|-
|[[Skyrim:Barbas|Barbas]]||[[Skyrim:A Daedra's Best Friend|A Daedra's Best Friend]]||Barbas is the only ''temporary'' dog follower in the game. He also barks, whines, and pushes you incessantly if you drag him away from his quest, however he is invincible and will continue to follow and fight for you no matter where you bring him.||style="text-align:center"|45||style="text-align:center" |3 ||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}||style="text-align:center"|{{yes}}
|-
|[[Skyrim:Gleda the Goat|Gleda the Goat]]||[[Skyrim:A Night To Remember|A Night To Remember]]||Gleda will not fight, and can not be spoken to. She will follow you until you return her to [[Skyrim:Ennis|Ennis]].||style="text-align:center"|3||style="text-align:center" |3 ||||
|}
{{LE||Dragonborn Quest Followers}}
===Dragonborn===
These followers are only present during certain [[Dragonborn:Dragonborn|Dragonborn]] quests.

{| class="wikitable" style="width:100%"
!style="width:120px"|Name
!style="width:140px"|Quest(s)
!Notes
!style="width:1px"|Max Level
!style="width:1px"|{{hover|Morality Value|[[Skyrim:Morality|Moral]]}}
!style="width:1px"|[[Dragonborn:Essential_NPCs|Essential]]
!style="width:80px" | Usable in Other Quests
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Neloth|Neloth]] || [[Dragonborn:The_Path_of_Knowledge|The Path of Knowledge]] || || style="text-align:center"|60 || style="text-align:center"|3 || style="text-align:center"|{{V}} ||
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Tharstan|Tharstan]] || [[Dragonborn:Lost_Legacy|Lost Legacy]] || || style="text-align:center"|1 || style="text-align:center"|3 || style="text-align:center"|{{V}} ||
|-
!colspan=7|Animal Followers
|-
|[[Dragonborn:Bilgemuck|Bilgemuck]] || [[Dragonborn:The Chief of Thirsk Hall|The Chief of Thirsk Hall]] || || style="text-align:center"|7 || style="text-align:center"|3 || style="text-align:center"| ||
|}

== Notes ==
* Followers are not affected by [[Skyrim:Disease|diseases]].
* It can be quite easy to outpace most followers and lose track of them (e.g. light armor wearers with heavy armor followers).
* Pathfinding can make followers difficult to manage. They cannot jump up or across anything, though they will jump down if there is no other path. If you jump up a small hill, be prepared to see your follower take an extremely long path around. Quite often a follower will get stuck with no path to you. In these circumstances, it appears they are supposed to simply teleport near you, but this can take a very long time to trigger if it triggers at all. The only known guaranteed ways to get them to appear are to fast-travel, change zones (loading screen), use the <code>moveto player</code> console command, or to wait.
* You can pickpocket your follower's starting items with the [[Skyrim:Misdirection|Misdirection]] and [[Skyrim:Perfect_Touch|Perfect Touch]] perks if they are not following you, although they may reappear afterwards.
* Followers can become hostile:
** Followers can and will attack your horse, summons, thralls and other temporary followers if hit by them enough. This is common when escorting a temporary mage follower, or summoning an Atronach that uses area of effect spells.
** When damaged badly enough by rockfalls or traps that are triggered by you, a follower may leave your service and attack. This can usually be corrected by yielding at which time the follower can be rehired.
** It is possible for a follower to enter combat mode when a random brawl is started or when an NPC carries out an act that could be seen as aggressive towards you (as with the [[Skyrim:Magic Student|Magic Student]] random encounter). When anticipating a brawl or "initiation" fight it is best to ask your follower to wait somewhere else out of sight.
** Canine followers can be possessed by Spriggans. To fix this, kill the Spriggan and have the dog be downed by something other than your weapon; when it gets back up, the problem should be resolved.
* Be aware of your follower being behind you, especially if you have equipped them with magical staves and are in tight areas. They will have no qualms about targeting the enemy right through your character.
* With the [[Skyrim:Hearthfire|Hearthfire]] add-on installed it is possible to turn some followers into a steward of one of your properties. Animal followers can be kept as pets at the request of your adopted children.
* If you wish to easily find your follower, have them pick up any quest item that is needed for a quest you do not want to complete. Leaving the quest active will always point to your follower, as they are holding the quest item. If your follower is a member of the [[Skyrim:The Circle|Circle]], then the minor objective Talk to the Companions leaders for work will always point to your follower (along with the other members of The Circle) as well.
* Followers will not follow you into the [[Skyrim:Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary|Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary]] and various other quest areas. They will wait outside. In some cases, followers will not follow you into an area during a portion of a quest, but will come with you into that area when that part of the quest is over.
* If you accidentally damage a follower enough to turn them hostile, casting a [[SR:Pacify (effect)|Pacify]] spell on them and rehiring will cause the follower to remain friendly to you even after the spell expires. However, initiating dialogue with your follower will immediately make them hostile again.

== Bugs ==
{{cleanup|Entries need to be tested and properly formatted, and non-fix subheadings need to be integrated or removed.}}
{{Bug|Followers who have the archery skill and come with a starter set bow and arrows will use a single better arrow indefinitely, without using it up. Their misses and kills still show up on the ground and in the loot window and can be picked up. The single arrow may eventually disappear after an unspecified number of shots. In some instances, their standard bow may be required, but generally the follower can use any bow the player chooses to give. The unlimited arrow "bug" occurs with any single arrow given to the follower.|USKP|1.0}}
{{Bug|Followers may always use their default hunting bow in favor of better ones given to them.|USKP|1.0}}
**Archer followers will only use a bow and arrow combination where the base bow damage (before upgrading with smithing or enchanting) plus arrow damage falls within the range of 15-22.[http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1378689-bows-and-followers/page__view__findpost__p__20885061] Otherwise they revert to their starter bow and/or iron arrows when in battle.
**With the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]] add-on followers will use upgraded bows of higher quality such as crossbows and dragonbone bows with higher level bolts/arrows.{{VN|section=Followers using higher quality bows with Dawnguard}}
{{Bug|If you place items in a container and then command the follower to "take all items" the items they take from the container may now carry the "Stolen" tag.|confirmed=1}}
**You can remove the "Stolen" tag by repeating the process.{{vn}}
{{Bug|If you command followers to pick items up off the ground, they can carry an infinite amount of weight and their movement speed does not appear to be affected but there are several issues associated with doing this.|confirmed=1}}
**Drop items to be picked up in stacks of 5 or less. If they are dropped in stacks of 6 or more they will only pick up one of the item, and the rest will be lost. They can pick up multiple stacks of 5 or less.
**You may not be able to take back a piece of armor you have ordered your follower to pick up if it is identical to the follower's starting armor or the armor they are currently wearing. Trying to remove it from their inventory will give the message, ''"You cannot take your follower's starting items."'' Killing your follower will allow you to get the items back, but they will be marked as stolen. Putting them on a mannequin in your home will result in the same bug as with the follower, leaving you unable to get your armor back.
**Often, when you retrieve the items picked up by your follower through the inventory exchange dialogue, those items will be marked with a "[[Skyrim:Crime#Stolen_Items|Stolen]]" tag, even when they are not stolen.
*** This can be avoided if you first pick up all items, then drop them on the ground one by one (or stacks of 5 or less) before asking the follower to pick them up. Finally, after getting the items back again, you should drop them on the ground and pick them up one last time.
*** The [[Skyrim:console|console]] can be used on PCs. Enter "setownership" on any container and all items placed in the container (before or after the command) can safely be picked up by the follower. However, as it also removes the stolen flag on actual stolen items, it should be used with care so as not to spoil the gaming experience.
** When encumbered past their limit by using the exploit, there have been instances where the follower is incapable of drawing their weapon in battle. They will still attempt to attack the enemy but will be incapable of doing anything except take a beating. This issue can sometimes be resolved by entering a new area that requires loading.
** Sometimes when using the exploit, giving your follower the same armor as starting armor, then taking this armor will result in the follower being unclothed.{{vn|plain}}
{{Bug|A follower may not leave the recovery state even when their health is fully replenished but instead continue crawling around on the floor.|confirmed=1}}
** This can be fixed by entering combat again with a new enemy, attacking them, fast-traveling to a new area, reloading a save, or healing them with a [[Skyrim:Restoration|Restoration]] spell. The [[Skyrim:Unrelenting Force|Unrelenting Force]] [[Skyrim:Shout|Shout]] or casting [[Skyrim:Paralyze (spell)|Paralyze]] on them sometimes works as well.
{{Bug|Sometimes after a fight, the follower will be partially disabled, i.e., will not regenerate health, will not move or follow, will not sheath weapon when you do, will not have conversation menu, but will verbally respond to being healed. Using the console kill command seems to fix his or her state without actually killing him or her.}}
** This has the same fixes as not leaving the recovery state, above.
{{Bug|Followers may lose carry weight after being dismissed and then rehired. This is due to them receiving extra copies of hidden equipment upon rehiring, which can be removed with the console.|OSP|1.9.26.0.8}}
{{Bug|You can move distant objects by holding the ''Use'' button while giving orders to a follower.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|You can have more than one follower at a time with the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]] add-on. If you have the Dark Brotherhood Initiate as a follower when you recruit Serana you may keep both followers. You may then be able to to have a Housecarl follow you as a third follower unless you have Cicero and Serana.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|If you drop an item and move it around in the game world and then ask your follower to pick it up, they will go to the place it was initially dropped and pick it up there.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Your followers might sometimes enter buildings via a different door than you.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Followers may become stuck on terrain when returning to their original locations after being dismissed.|vn=1}}
**{{pc22}}Use the console command <code>prid (RefID)</code> to target a lost follower and then use the command <code>moveto player</code> to place them at your current location.
*{{Xbox22}} Sometimes, you are able to get more than one follower. To do this, have your original follower, and your potential second follower stand next to each other. Next, dismiss your follower, then immediately re-hire them. Exit out of their text, then quickly open conversation with your potential follower. If done correctly, you will be able to hire them. Do this as many times as you like by repeating the steps with your original follower. This may take a couple tries, you have to be quick. (needs confirmation on PC and Playstation)
**Your additional followers may not wait when commanded, and often get in the way. If you also have a dog with you, they may get stuck in doors.
{{Bug|{{Xbox22}} With the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]] add-on, crossbows may randomly disappear from a follower's inventory when loading a game.}}
{{Bug|{{pc22}}If the game's files are corrupted, this may cause certain (or in most serious cases, all) followers to be interacted with but without any follower dialogue, leaving the followers to only communicate with generic greetings given by NPCs.}}
**{{pc22}}A quick workaround this issue is to use console command, select the follower in question and type <code>addfac/addtofaction 0005C84D 1</code>. This will not entirely restore the follower's dialogue and script but it will allow players to recruit followers if needed.

== See Also ==
* A [[Skyrim:Followers/Table|sortable table]] of all followers' maximum stats.

Daggerfall:Places

2017-11-06T01:13:53Z

Kitkat1749: Wording, clarity, removing a comment which belongs on the talk page

{{Trail}}

== Overview ==
[[Daggerfall:Daggerfall|Daggerfall's]] worldspace is, ostensibly, one of the largest in video game history; according to [[General:Bethesda|Bethesda]], it rivals Great Britain in size.<ref>"Game Info" section: https://elderscrolls.bethesda.net/daggerfall/</ref> This claim, however, is unverified, and calculations by fans have turned up [[Daggerfall:Dimensions_of_the_Iliac_Bay|various answers]]. Nevertheless, the game boasts a vast number of regions, and an enormous amount of unique locations. The [[Daggerfall:Land_creation_notes|wilderness]] between locations is based on a rudimentary heightmap, one pixel of which covers 800 in-game metres. Smaller details are randomly generated, whilst actual locations are pre-generated, and are consequently always the same.

The game world is divided between two [[Lore:Tamriel#Provinces|Tamrielic provinces]], covering most of [[Daggerfall:High Rock|High Rock]], the northern part of [[Daggerfall:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]], and the islands of the [[Daggerfall:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay]]. Spanning two different provinces, the game is quite geographically diverse, encompassing 9 climate regions and 44 different kingdoms, each with a different landscape, climate and culture; these kingdoms also contain unique vegetation, animals, [[Daggerfall:NPCs|inhabitants]], architecture, [[Daggerfall:Regional Temples|temples]], [[Daggerfall: Knightly Orders|knightly orders]] and major powers.

[[File:DF-Map-Climate-2.png|thumb|400px|Climate map of the Iliac Bay region as seen in Daggerfall]]
{{newline}}
===Mountains===
Although Daggerfall possesses [[Daggerfall:Maps#Illiac_Bay_Heightmap|heightmap data]], the amount of height variance in the game appears to be miniscule (excluding the 2D mountains which can sometimes be seen in the background skybox). This is due to the noise bump filter added to the ground, combined with the extremely short draw distance. However, it is possible to observe "mountains" at specific points in the game world, recognizable as sudden rises in the terrain elevation.

The first spot is on [[Daggerfall:Isle of Balfiera|the Isle of Balfiera]], as seen here:
[[File:DF-Map-Heightmap-Mark1.png|thumb|400px|left]]
{{newline}}
The second spot is east of the capital of [[Daggerfall:Sentinel|Sentinel]] or south west of "The Silver Bird Pub":
[[File:DF-Map-Heightmap-Mark2.png|thumb|400px|left]]
{{newline}}

== [[Daggerfall:Regions|Regions]] ==
There are 41 continental regions and 3 island regions in [[Daggerfall:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay:]]
[[File:DF-Map-Iliac_Bay.jpg|thumb|400px|Map of the Iliac Bay regions as seen in Daggerfall]]
*[[Daggerfall:Abibon-Gora|Abibon-Gora]]
*[[Daggerfall:Alcaire|Alcaire]]
*[[Daggerfall:Alik'r|Alik'r]]
*[[Daggerfall:Anticlere|Anticlere]]
*[[Daggerfall:Antiphyllos|Antiphyllos]]
*[[Daggerfall:Ayasofya|Ayasofya]]
*[[Daggerfall:Bergama|Bergama]]
*[[Daggerfall:Betony|Betony]]
*[[Daggerfall:Bhoriane|Bhoriane]]
*[[Daggerfall:Cybiades|Cybiades]]
*[[Daggerfall:Daenia|Daenia]]
*[[Daggerfall:Daggerfall (Region)|Daggerfall]]
*[[Daggerfall:Dak'fron|Dak'fron]]
*[[Daggerfall:Dragontail Mountains|Dragontail Mountains]]
*[[Daggerfall:Dwynnen|Dwynnen]]
*[[Daggerfall:Ephesus|Ephesus]]
*[[Daggerfall:Gavaudon|Gavaudon]]
*[[Daggerfall:Glenpoint|Glenpoint]]
*[[Daggerfall:Glenumbra Moors|Glenumbra Moors]]
*[[Daggerfall:Ilessan Hills|Ilessan Hills]]
*[[Daggerfall:Isle of Balfiera|Balfiera Island]]
*[[Daggerfall:Kairou|Kairou]]
*[[Daggerfall:Kambria|Kambria]]
*[[Daggerfall:Koegria|Koegria]]
*[[Daggerfall:Kozanset|Kozanset]]
*[[Daggerfall:Lainlyn|Lainlyn]]
*[[Daggerfall:Menevia|Menevia]]
*[[Daggerfall:Mournoth|Mournoth]]
*[[Daggerfall:Myrkwasa|Myrkwasa]]
*[[Daggerfall:Northmoor|Northmoor]]
*[[Daggerfall:Orsinium Area|Orsinium Area]]
*[[Daggerfall:Phrygias|Phrygias]]
*[[Daggerfall:Pothago|Pothago]]
*[[Daggerfall:Santaki|Santaki]]
*[[Daggerfall:Satakalaam|Satakalaam]]
*[[Daggerfall:Sentinel|Sentinel]]
*[[Daggerfall:Shalgora|Shalgora]]
*[[Daggerfall:Tigonus|Tigonus]]
*[[Daggerfall:Totambu|Totambu]]
*[[Daggerfall:Tulune|Tulune]]
*[[Daggerfall:Urvaius|Urvaius]]
*[[Daggerfall:Wayrest|Wayrest]]
*[[Daggerfall:Wrothgarian Mountains|Wrothgarian Mountains]]
*[[Daggerfall:Ykalon|Ykalon]]

== [[Daggerfall:Locations|Unique locations]] ==
''Daggerfall'' contains a total of 15,251 cities, inns, homes, temples, graveyards and dungeons. Contrary to the randomly generated wilderness separating them, these locations are all pre-determined. They are spread over the 44 different regions of the Iliac Bay; density varies depending on the size or importance of the region, ranging from the [[Daggerfall:Wrothgarian Mountains|Wrothgarian Mountains]], with 1,833 locations, to the tiny island of [[Daggerfall:Cybiades|Cybiades]], with only one. It is possible to sort these places of note into four main categories, following the in-game map labels: [[Daggerfall:Dungeons|''Dungeons'']], [[Daggerfall:Homes|''Homes'']], [[Daggerfall:Regional Temples|''Temples'']] and [[Daggerfall:Cities|''Towns'']]. This article only lists some of the most relevant locations. A complete list of locations is included in each specific region article.

=== [[Daggerfall:Dungeons|Dungeons]] ===

There are a total '''4,229''' dungeons in ''Daggerfall'', which contain various enemies and [[Daggerfall:Dungeons#Dungeon Blocks|block types]]. Depending on the location, they can include haunts, dens, laboratories, caves or graveyards, among others.

=== [[Daggerfall:Homes|Homes]] ===

These include [[Daggerfall:Farmsteads|farms]], isolated [[Daggerfall:Shacks|houses]], [[Daggerfall:Manors|manors]], palaces and urbanized dead ends. There are a total of '''4,400'''.

=== [[Daggerfall:Regional Temples|Temples]] ===

Temples can includes isolated altars, monuments or [[Daggerfall:Shrine|shrines]], friendly [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens|covens]], or "temple compounds" (Temples with several buildings surrounding it). There are '''1,532''' separate religious sites.

*[[Daggerfall:Witch Covens|Covens]]

*[[Daggerfall:Regional Temples|Rural Temples]]

*[[Daggerfall:Shrine|Shrines]]

=== [[Daggerfall:Cities|Towns]] ===

Daggerfall ''towns'' include cities, towns, villages and independent inns/pubs complexes. The total amount of ''Towns'' in Daggerfall is '''5,090'''.

*[[Daggerfall:Cities#Capitals|Capitals]]
**[[Daggerfall:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]]
***[[Daggerfall:Abibon-gora|Abibon-gora]]
***[[Daggerfall:Alik'ra|Alik'ra]]
***[[Daggerfall:Antyphyllos|Antyphyllos]]
***[[Daggerfall:Ayasofya (city)|Ayasofya]]
***[[Daggerfall:Bergama (city)|Bergama]]
***[[Daggerfall:Dragontail|Dragontail]]
***[[Daggerfall:Ephesus (city)|Ephesus]]
***[[Daggerfall:Kairou (city)|Kairou]]
***[[Daggerfall:Kozanset (city)|Konzaset]]
***[[Daggerfall:Lainlyn (city)|Lainlyn]]
***[[Daggerfall:Mournoth (city)|Mournoth]]
***[[Daggerfall:Myrkwasa (city)|Myrkwasa]]
***[[Daggerfall:Pothago (city)|Pothago]]
***[[Daggerfall:Santaki (city)|Santaki]]
***[[Daggerfall:Satakalaam (city)|Satakalaam]]
***[[Daggerfall:Sentinel (city)|Sentinel]]
***[[Daggerfall:Tigonus (city)|Tigonus]]
***[[Daggerfall:Totambu (city)|Totambu]]
**[[Daggerfall:High Rock|High Rock]]
***[[Daggerfall:Alcaire (city)|Alcaire]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere (city)|Anticlere]]
***[[Daggerfall:Bhoriane (city)|Bhoriane]]
***[[Daggerfall:Daenia (city)|Daenia]]
***[[Daggerfall:Daggerfall (city)|Daggerfall]]
***[[Daggerfall:Dwynnen (city)|Dwynnen]]
***[[Daggerfall:Gavaudon (city)|Gavaudon]]
***[[Daggerfall:Glenpoint (city)|Glenpoint]]
***[[Daggerfall:Glenumbra|Glenumbra]]
***[[Daggerfall:Ilessan Hills (city)|Ilessan Hills]]
***[[Daggerfall:Kambria (city)|Kambria]]
***[[Daggerfall:Koegria (city)|Koegria]]
***[[Daggerfall:Menevia (city)|Menevia]]
***[[Daggerfall:Northmoor (city)|Northmoor]]
***[[Daggerfall:Orsinium|Orsinium]]
***[[Daggerfall:Phrygias (city)|Phrygias]]
***[[Daggerfall:Shalgora (city)|Shalgora]]
***[[Daggerfall:Tulune (city)|Tulune]]
***[[Daggerfall:Urvaius (city)|Urvaius]]
***[[Daggerfall:Wayrest (city)|Wayrest]]
***[[Daggerfall:Wrothgaria|Wrothgaria]]
***[[Daggerfall:Ykalon (city)|Ykalon]]
Note: [[Daggerfall:Cybiades|Cybiades island]] and [[Daggerfall:Dak'fron|Dak'fron region]] in Hammerfell and [[Daggerfall:Betony|Betony]] and [[Daggerfall:Isle of Balfiera|Balfiera]] islands in High Rock, lack a capital.
*[[Daggerfall:Cities#Other Cities|Other large cities]] (walled cities with areas of at least 15 [[Daggerfall:BLOCKS.BSA|blocks]])
**[[Daggerfall:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]]
***[[Daggerfall:Abibon-Gora#Service Locations|Cerettunia (Abibon-Gora)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Abibon-Gora#Service Locations|Lastabia (Abibon-Gora)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Abibon-Gora#Service Locations|Penazar (Abibon-Gora)]]
**[[Daggerfall:High Rock|High Rock]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations#2|Aldingborne Commons (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Aldshire (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Aldwall Rock (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Charborne Wood (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Chestermarket (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Cromward (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Crosswych Wood (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Eastcastle (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Gallovalloe (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Grayborne (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Ipscart Rock (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Stoklech (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Stoklech (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Holleigh (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Ipstale (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Kirkhope (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Lamtown (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Newwell (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Oxfort (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Stoklech (Anticlere)]]
***[[Daggerfall:Anticlere#Service Locations|Tamham (Anticlere)]]
*Other [[Daggerfall:Cities#Towns and Villages|towns]] of interest:
**[[Daggerfall:Grimdale Moor|Grimdale Moor]]
*[[Daggerfall:Taverns|Taverns]]
==Places of Interest==
{|class="wikitable" style="text-align:center"
!Region!!City!!Places of Interest
|-
!colspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:Hammerfell|Hammerfell]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Abibon-Gora|Abibon-Gora]]
| [[Daggerfall:Abibon-gora|Abibon-gora]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Alik'r|Alik'r]]
| [[Daggerfall:Alik'ra|Alik'ra]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Witches of the Marsh|The Coven in the Marsh]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Antiphyllos|Antiphyllos]]
| [[Daggerfall:Antyphyllos|Antyphyllos]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Dust Witches|The Coven of the Dust]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Ayasofya|Ayasofya]]
| [[Daggerfall:Ayasofya (city)|Ayasofya City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Bergama|Bergama]]
| [[Daggerfall:Bergama (city)|Bergama City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Cybiades|Cybiades]]
|
| [[Daggerfall:Cybiades|Ruins of Cosh Hall]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Dak'fron|Dak'fron]]
|
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Sisters of Kykos|The Kykos Coven]]
|-
!rowspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:Dragontail Mountains|Dragontail Mountains]]
| [[Daggerfall:Dragontail|Dragontail]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Witches of Devilrock|The Devilrock Coven]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Mountain Witches|Coven of the Peaks]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Scourg Barrow|Scourg Barrow]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Ephesus|Ephesus]]
| [[Daggerfall:Ephesus (city)|Ephesus City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Kairou|Kairou]]
| [[Daggerfall:Kairou (city)|Kairou City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Kozanset|Kozanset]]
| [[Daggerfall:Kozanset (city)|Kozanset City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Lainlyn|Lainlyn]]
| [[Daggerfall:Lainlyn (city)|Lainlyn City]]
| Lainlyn Cliffs
|-
![[Daggerfall:Mournoth|Mournoth]]
| [[Daggerfall:Mournoth (city)|Mournoth City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Myrkwasa|Myrkwasa]]
| [[Daggerfall:Myrkwasa (city)|Myrkwasa City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Tide Witches|The Coven of the Tide]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Pothago|Pothago]]
| [[Daggerfall:Pothago (city)|Pothago City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Santaki|Santaki]]
| [[Daggerfall:Santaki (city)|Santaki City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Satakalaam|Satakalaam]]
| [[Daggerfall:Satakalaam (city)|Satakalaam City]]
|
|-
!rowspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:Sentinel|Sentinel]]
| [[Daggerfall:Sentinel (city)|Sentinel City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Sentinel_(city)#Castle Sentinel|Castle Sentinel]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Castle Faallem|Castle Faallem]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:The Fortress of Fhojum|The Fortress of Fhojum]]
|-
!rowspan="2"|[[Daggerfall:Tigonus|Tigonus]]
| [[Daggerfall:Tigonus (city)|Tigonus City]]
|
|-
| [[Daggerfall:Lastabia|Lastabia]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Totambu|Totambu]]
| [[Daggerfall:Totambu (city)|Totambu City]]
|
|-
!colspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:High Rock|High Rock]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Alcaire|Alcaire]]
| [[Daggerfall:Alcaire (city)|Alcaire City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Witches of Alcaire|The Alcaire Coven]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Anticlere|Anticlere]]
| [[Daggerfall:Anticlere (city)|Anticlere City]]
|
|-
!rowspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:Betony|Betony]]
|
| [[Daggerfall:Cryngaine Field|Cryngaine Field]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Ravennian Forest|Ravennian Forest]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Yeorth Burrowland|Yeorth Burrowland]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Bhoriane|Bhoriane]]
| [[Daggerfall:Bhoriane (city)|Bhoriane City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Daenia|Daenia]]
| [[Daggerfall:Daenia (city)|Daenia City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Beldama|The Beldama Coven]]
|-
!rowspan="6"|[[Daggerfall:Daggerfall (Region)|Daggerfall]]
| [[Daggerfall:Daggerfall (city)|Daggerfall City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Castle Daggerfall|Castle Daggerfall]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Castle Necromoghan|Castle Necromoghan]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Copperton Tower|Copperton Tower]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Sisters of The Bluff|The Coven on The Bluff]]
|-
|
| Daggerfall Bluffs
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Privateer's Hold|Privateer's Hold]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Dwynnen|Dwynnen]]
| [[Daggerfall:Dwynnen (city)|Dwynnen City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Gavaudon|Gavaudon]]
| [[Daggerfall:Gavaudon (city)|Gavaudon City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Glenpoint|Glenpoint]]
| [[Daggerfall:Glenpoint (city)|Glenpoint City]]
| Glenpoint Foothills
|-
![[Daggerfall:Glenumbra Moors|Glenumbra Moors]]
| [[Daggerfall:Glenumbra|Glenumbra]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Ilessan Hills|Ilessan Hills]]
| [[Daggerfall:Ilessan Hills (city)|Ilessan Hills City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Glenmoril Witches|The Glenmorial Coven]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Kambria|Kambria]]
| [[Daggerfall:Kambria (city)|Kambria City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Koegria|Koegria]]
| [[Daggerfall:Koegria (city)|Koegria City]]
|
|-
!rowspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:Menevia|Menevia]]
| [[Daggerfall:Menevia (city)|Menevia City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Lysandus' Tomb|Lysandus' Tomb]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Tamarilyn Witches|The Tamarilyn Coven]]
|-
|
| Tamarilyn Point
|-
![[Daggerfall:Northmoor|Northmoor]]
| [[Daggerfall:Northmoor (city)|Northmoor City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Orsinium Area|Orsinium Area]]
| [[Daggerfall:Orsinium|Orsinium]]
| [[Daggerfall:Stronghold of Orsinium|Stronghold of Orsinium]]
|-
!rowspan="2"|[[Daggerfall:Phrygias|Phrygias]]
| [[Daggerfall:Phrygias (city)|Phrygias City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Skeffington Witches|The Skeffington Coven]]
|-
|
| Skeffington Wood
|-
![[Daggerfall:Shalgora|Shalgora]]
| [[Daggerfall:Shalgora (city)|Shalgora City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Daggerfall Witches|The Daggerfall Coven]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Tulune|Tulune]]
| [[Daggerfall:Tulune (city)|Tulune City]]
|
|-
![[Daggerfall:Urvaius|Urvaius]]
| [[Daggerfall:Urvaius (city)|Urvaius City]]
|
|-
!rowspan="2"|[[Daggerfall:Wayrest|Wayrest]]
| [[Daggerfall:Wayrest (city)|Wayrest City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Castle Wayrest|Castle Wayrest]]
|-
| [[Daggerfall:Grimdale Moor|Grimdale Moor]]
| [[Daggerfall:Woodborne Hall|Woodborne Hall]]
|-
!rowspan="2"|[[Daggerfall:Wrothgarian Mountains|Wrothgarian Mountains]]
| [[Daggerfall:Wrothgaria|Wrothgaria]]
| [[Daggerfall:Witch Covens#The Daughters of Wroth|The Wroth Coven]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Shedungent|Shedungent]]
|-
![[Daggerfall:Ykalon|Ykalon]]
| [[Daggerfall:Ykalon (city)|Ykalon City]]
| [[Daggerfall:Castle Llugwych|Castle Llugwych]]
|-
!colspan="3"|[[Daggerfall:Iliac Bay|Iliac Bay]]
|-

!Hammerfell bay coast
|
|
|-
!Hammerfell sea coast
|
|
|-
!High Rock bay coast
|
|
|-
!rowspan="2"|[[Daggerfall:High Rock sea coast|High Rock sea coast]]
|
| [[Daggerfall:Journey to Aetherius|Mantellan Crux]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:Ships|Your Ship]]
|-
!Islands in the Western Iliac Bay
|
|
|-
!rowspan="2"|[[Daggerfall:Isle of Balfiera|Isle of Balfiera]]
|
| [[Daggerfall:Direnni Tower|Direnni Tower]]
|-
|
| [[Daggerfall:The Masoleum of Darkivaron|The Masoleum of Darkivaron]]
|-
|}

==See also==

* For a calculation of total game world area in Daggerfall, see [[Daggerfall:Dimensions of the Iliac Bay|Dimensions of the Iliac Bay]].

==References==

<references/>

Skyrim:The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller

2017-11-06T00:01:09Z

Kitkat1749: Undo three edits - not relevant to the quest

<noinclude>{{Cleanup-srqrp
|writtenBy=Multiple
|checkedBy=
|reward=Multiple
|rewardChecked=RobinHood70
}}</noinclude>{{DEFAULTSORT:Horn of Jurgen Windcaller, The}}{{Trail|Quests|Main Quest}}{{Quest Header
|Giver=[[Skyrim:Arngeir|Arngeir]]
|Reward=Word for the [[Skyrim:Unrelenting Force|Unrelenting Force]] shout, Formal recognition as Dragonborn, Free access to High Hrothgar
|Disp=
|Prev=[[Skyrim:The Way of the Voice|The Way of the Voice]]
|Conc=
|Next=[[Skyrim:A Blade in the Dark|A Blade in the Dark]]
|Loc=[[Skyrim:High Hrothgar|High Hrothgar]], [[Skyrim:Ustengrav|Ustengrav]], [[Skyrim:Riverwood|Riverwood]]
|Image=SR-quest-The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller.jpg
|ImgDesc=The final chamber for the Horn
|description=Retrieve a [[Skyrim:Greybeards|Greybeard]] artifact from [[SR:Ustengrav|Ustengrav]].
|ID=MQ105Ustengrav
|Icon=SR-qico-Main.png
|SuggLevel=6
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Attempt to retrieve the [[SR:Horn of Jurgen Windcaller|Horn of Jurgen Windcaller]] from [[Skyrim:Ustengrav|Ustengrav]].
# Meet with whoever took the Horn in [[Skyrim:Riverwood|Riverwood]].
# Return the Horn to [[SR:Arngeir|Arngeir]].
# Learn the Word of Power from [[SR:Wulfgar|Wulfgar]].
# Receive the Greybeards' formal recognition.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Ustengrav===
After completing [[Skyrim:The Way of the Voice|The Way of the Voice]], [[Skyrim:Arngeir|Arngeir]] will assign you one last task to prove you are Dragonborn: retrieve the [[SR:Horn of Jurgen Windcaller|Horn of Jurgen Windcaller]], so named after the [[Skyrim:Jurgen Windcaller|founder]] of the Greybeards. The Horn is located in the ruin of [[Skyrim:Ustengrav|Ustengrav]], which Arngeir marks on your map.

The simplest way to reach Ustengrav is to take a carriage to the town of [[Skyrim:Morthal|Morthal]], then travel the marshes on foot. The ruins are due northeast of the town. If you wish to walk, the fastest route from the [[Skyrim:Throat of the World|Throat of the World]] is to pass through the fields around [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]] and follow the route northwest directly through [[Skyrim:Labyrinthian|Labyrinthian]]. However, this route will require you to deal with the multiple [[Skyrim:Frost Troll|frost trolls]] that roam the exterior of Labyrinthian. When you arrive at the Ustengrav ruins, you'll encounter some bandits attacking a necromancer. Once the danger has passed, travel into the ruin.

The first level of the ruin is fairly straightforward, with a few mages and [[Skyrim:Draugr|draugr]] to deal with. The groups here are often small enough to be handled alone. They are also hostile to each other, so sneaking and following the mages deeper into the ruin will allow for the groups to thin each other. Deal with any remaining draugr and descend into the second zone of the ruin.
''Note: More detailed information about Ustengrav can be found on [[Skyrim:Ustengrav|this page]].''
{{NewLeft}}
===Into the Depths===
[[File:SR-quest-The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller 3.jpg|thumb|left|Skeletons dwell in the depths.]]
Upon entering Ustengrav Depths, you will see a sparsely forested chasm with a waterfall and a bridge far below. To descend, navigate the winding path through the rest of the ruin. You will encounter several draugr and a fire trap along the way. The outdoor area itself hosts several [[Skyrim:Skeleton|skeleton]] archers, both on the ground by the bridge and in the somewhat higher level with the wooden barricade. These can be easily defeated with ranged attacks. In the room with the tall pillars, a skeleton seated on a throne will come to life at your approach. If you jump to the rocks on the left at the top of the ramp leading down into the room, then jump and use [[SR:Whirlwind Sprint|Whirlwind Sprint]] between the circular platforms on the pillars, you will reach a secret room with a soul gem and a chest.

Near the bottom of the waterfall is a [[Skyrim:Word Wall|word wall]] with a word for the [[Skyrim:Become_Ethereal|Become Ethereal]] shout. It can be seen from the bridge, and is reachable by a small path carved from the side of the cave wall. Behind the waterfall is a hidden area containing a draugr and small amounts of loot. The Horn, however, lies on the other side of the bridge. After gaining the word, return up the path and cross the bridge. On the way back up, on the right side, there is a ramp leading up to a ledge with a chest; a corundum and a silver vein can be found nearby.

[[File:SR-trap-Glowing Stones.jpg|thumb|right|Red glowing runes]]
Across the bridge, a lone skeleton can be found. It can easily be dispatched. The main feature, of the area, are the three outcrops of rock carved with runes. There is also a tunnel with all of its gates down. Each of the rocks glows red at your approach and lifts one of the gates barring passage through the tunnel. However, the gates will often shut soon upon opening. The easiest solution is to use the Whirlwind Sprint shout, using it to sprint through the stones opens the gates long enough to walk through them all. Once you are clear, the gates will remain fully open, allowing any followers to catch up. With only one word of the shout learned, getting all three gates to stay open long enough is trickier. The gate can be opened by starting at the rock closest to the bridge, sprint by each of them until you get close to the tunnel entrance, and from there use Whirlwind Sprint to clear all the gates at once. It is also possible to stand in front of the first rock, use Whirlwind Sprint, and then run through the rest of the tunnel. It is also possible to stand between the first two rocks to open the first two gates, use Whirlwind Sprint and then run; the third gate should stay open by then. If you become trapped between gates inside the tunnel, you will find pull chains that will allow you to return to the rocks and try again.

The floors of the next few chambers are covered with fire traps. There are two [[Skyrim:Frostbite_Spider|frostbite spiders]] on the cobwebbed arch. It's possible to avoid the traps by staying close to the walls. The pair of spiders can be lured onto the traps. The traps have a slightly delayed reaction to your passing over them, so if you're on your own, you can get away with just sprinting forward and you won't be badly burned. The sides also contain some areas of trap free space. Any follower brought here may be in danger as long as you are in the trapped area. They will continuously take damage from the traps.

After walking through here, you will find a large room. This room contains a more powerful giant spider hiding in the ceiling, as well as smaller spiders. The giant spider will attempt to ambush you when you get close. Using [[SR:Resist Poison|resist poison]] and [[SR:Resist Frost|resist frost]] potions may help you survive this encounter.

After dispatching the spiders, cut or burn through the two sets of cobwebs covering the tunnel. If you are collecting [[Skyrim:Ingredients|alchemical ingredients]], you will find three [[Skyrim:Spider_Egg|spider eggs]] in the egg sacs in the spiders' nest. Otherwise, go right ahead and enter the final chamber.
{{NewLeft}}

===Note for the Dragonborn===
[[File:SR-quest-The Horn of Jurgen Windcaller 2.jpg|thumb|left|A mysterious note?]]
As you make your way through the final room, four Nordic dragon carvings rise out of pools of water. On the pedestal where the Horn should be resting, you will instead find [[Skyrim:Mysterious_Note_(Delphine)|a mysterious note]] addressed to "the Dragonborn". It states that the Horn has been removed, and requests that you meet the note's anonymous author by renting an attic room at the [[Skyrim:Sleeping Giant Inn|Sleeping Giant Inn]] in [[Skyrim:Riverwood|Riverwood]].

Having failed the task, do as the note says and go to Riverwood. When you speak to [[Skyrim:Delphine|Delphine]] about renting the appropriate room, she will tell you that there is no attic room, but that you can take the one on the left. Delphine follows you, reveals that she was the one who took the Horn, and gives the Horn to you. She asks to speak privately, and she will lead you to the room across from yours. Delphine opens the wardrobe door, revealing a secret room beneath the inn. In this room, she tells you that [[Skyrim:Blades|her organization]] has been looking for someone like you, and that she took the Horn in order to get your attention. This exchange with her begins the quest [[Skyrim:A Blade in the Dark|A Blade in the Dark]]. After speaking with her, you are free to return the Horn to High Hrothgar and complete the quest.
{{NewLeft}}

===Return to High Hrothgar===
Return to High Hrothgar with the Horn and present it to Arngeir, completing the task he originally gave you. Arngeir will go to the main hall, where the other Greybeards are assembled, and Wulfgar will teach you the final word of the [[Skyrim:Unrelenting Force|Unrelenting Force]] shout. There the Greybeards will speak to you at once in the dragon language, formally recognizing you as Dragonborn. (You are not harmed by this exchange.)

{|class="wikitable"
|-
!Dragon Tongue!!Direct translation!!According to Arngeir
|-
|'''Lingrah krosis saraan Strundu'ul, voth nid balaan klov praan nau.'''||Long (in) sorrow (has) waited (the) Stormcrown, with no worthy head to rest on.||''Long has the Stormcrown languished, with no worthy brow to sit upon.''
|-
|'''Naal Thu'umu, mu ofan nii nu, Dovahkiin, naal suleyk do Kaan, naal suleyk do Shor, ahrk naal suleyk do Atmorasewuth.'''||By our Voice we give it now (to you), Dragonborn, by (the) power of Kyne, by (the) power of Shor, and by (the) power of Atmora-of-old.||''By our breath we bestow it now to you in the name of Kyne, in the name of Shor, and in the name of Atmora of Old.''
|-
|'''Meyz nu Ysmir, Dovahsebrom. Dahmaan daar rok.'''||(You have) become now Ysmir, Dragon of the North. Remember these words.||''You are Ysmir now, the Dragon of the North, hearken to it.''
|}

This completes the quest, and from now on, any item in High Hrothgar can be taken.

===Achievement===
Although not directly tied to completing this quest, most players will unlock the following achievement during this quest, when the final word of [[Skyrim:Unrelenting Force|Unrelenting Force]] is learned:
* {{achievement|Words of Power (achievement)}}

==Notes==
* With the [[Dragonborn:Dragonborn|Dragonborn]] add-on installed, [[Dragonborn:Cultist|cultists]] will begin to track you down once you begin this quest.
* If you return to Jurgen Windcaller's coffin in Ustengrav after completing the quest, you can activate it to gain a dragon soul.
** It is possible to gain two or more dragon souls if you rapidly use the Activate button on the altar.
* Delphine's secret room contains several [[Skyrim:Potions|potions]] and useful [[Skyrim:Ingredients|ingredients]], as well as books and some weapons on the wall racks, all of which are free to take.
* Upon completion of this quest, you can ask Arngeir for additional training in the dragon tongue. He will say that it would be dangerous for you to grow your power too quickly, but that finding words of power would provide a way to temper your power with experience. From then on, you can ask Arngeir if the Greybeards have heard any [[Skyrim:The Words of Power|"whisperings of the words"]], which will tell you where one of the words of power can be found in Skyrim.
* It is possible to reach the base of the waterfall by climbing down the chasm near the entrance. You can do this by carefully jumping on the overhanging rock on the edge of the overlook, then sliding down the large pillar. In this way, you can cut the length of the trip by half.
* The Daedric script on the stone pedestal, where you find Delphine's note instead of the horn, reads "Windcaller".
* If you take a follower to High Hrothgar when you return the horn, they don't take damage though they do move and are affected by the shouting.
* If you tell Delphine "I don't have time for this" and it doesn't trigger the bug below, this will disable random dragon encounters until you return to her to start the next quest.

==Bugs==
{{Bug|The Greybeards may stay in the courtyard of High Hrothgar, standing in the places where they taught you the Whirlwind Sprint shout, and won't move to teach you the last word of Unrelenting Force, breaking the rest of the main quest.|confirmed=1}}
**Possible fixes include using Whirlwind Sprint through the gate, or closing the gate.
{{Bug|Delphine may not be at the inn when you get there.}}
{{Bug|If you tell Delphine ''"I don't have time for this."'' and leave to return the horn (or tab out of the conversation and just leave once you have the horn), Arngeir might not talk to you to receive the horn, breaking the main quest.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|{{Xbox22}}You may not be able to pass the puzzle room with the red glowing stones. After using Whirlwind shout while activating the gates, there may be an invisible wall that keeps you from proceeding.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|{{Xbox22}} Wulfgar might not be in High Hrothgar but might be off the mountain. If you find him the quest will continue but he will not be in High Hrothgar to complete the greeting. This problem is on Skyrim Special Edition.}}

==Quest Stages==
{{Journal Entries
|10||After demonstrating my ability to learn Words of Power and to Shout, the Greybeard Arngeir has sent me on a final trial - retrieving the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller from his tomb in Ustengrav, a burial mound in the marshes of Hjaalmarch.
{{Quest Objective|10|Retrieve the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller}}
|15||{{Quest Objective|15|Read the note}}
|20||After demonstrating my ability to learn Words of Power and to Shout, the Greybeard Arngeir sent me on a final trial - retrieving the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller from his tomb in Ustengrav. Unfortunately, when I reached the tomb, I found that someone had replaced the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller with a note asking me to meet them in the Sleeping Giant Inn in Riverwood.
{{Quest Objective|20|Meet with whoever took the horn}}
|30||After demonstrating my ability to learn Words of Power and to Shout, the Greybeard Arngeir sent me on a final trial - retrieving the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller from his tomb in Ustengrav. When I arrived, the horn was missing, and in its place was a note from Delphine asking me to meet her in Riverwood. Delphine has given me the horn, so I can now return to Arngeir and complete my training.
{{Quest Objective|30|Return the horn to Arngeir}}
|40||{{Quest Objective|40|Learn the Word of Power from Wulfgar}}
|50||{{Quest Objective|50|Receive the Greybeards' greeting}}
|60|fin|After demonstrating my ability to learn Words of Power and to Shout, the Greybeard Arngeir sent me on a final trial - retrieving the Horn of Jurgen Windcaller from his tomb in Ustengrav. When I arrived, the Horn was missing, and in its place was a note from Delphine asking me to meet her in Riverwood. Delphine gave me the Horn, and I returned it to Arngeir to complete my trial. The Greybeards then greeted me formally as Dragonborn, and High Hrothgar is now open to me.
}}
{{Skyrim Quest Stages Notes}}
{{Quest Footer|Prev=[[Skyrim:The Way of the Voice|The Way of the Voice]]|Next=[[Skyrim:A Blade in the Dark|A Blade in the Dark]]|Up=[[Skyrim:Main Quest|Main Quest]]}}

Skyrim:The Temple of Miraak

2017-11-05T00:10:49Z

Kitkat1749: /* Bugs */

{{DEFAULTSORT:Temple of Miraak, The}}{{Trail|Quests}}<noinclude>{{Cleanup-srqrp
|writtenBy=Krusty
|checkedBy=Beezer1029
|reward=Krusty
|rewardChecked=Beezer1029
}}</noinclude>{{Quest Header
|Giver=
|Icon=DB-qico-Main.png
|Reward=Word for the [[Dragonborn:Dragon Aspect|Dragon Aspect]] shout, The Black Book [[Dragonborn:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams_(book)|Waking Dreams]].
|Prev=[[Dragonborn:Dragonborn (quest)|Dragonborn]]
|Next=[[Dragonborn:The Fate of the Skaal|The Fate of the Skaal]]
|Loc=[[Dragonborn:Temple_of_Miraak|Temple of Miraak]]
|Image=DB-quest-The Temple Of Miraak.jpg
|ImgDesc=[[Dragonborn:Temple of Miraak|Temple of Miraak]]
|ID=DLC2MQ02
|description= Uncover the source of [[Dragonborn:Miraak (person)|Miraak]]'s power in the [[Dragonborn:Temple_of_Miraak|Temple of Miraak]].
|SuggLevel=30
}}

== Quick Walkthrough ==
# Travel to the [[Dragonborn:Temple_of_Miraak|Temple of Miraak]].
# Find and talk to [[Dragonborn:Frea|Frea]].
# Enter the temple and travel through it.
# Read the Black Book ''[[Dragonborn:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams_(book)|Waking Dreams]]'' at the end of the temple.

== Detailed Walkthrough ==
===Here in His Temple===
When you reach the [[Dragonborn:Temple of Miraak|Temple of Miraak]] you will find that the exterior is under construction by the enthralled people of Solstheim, all of them forced by [[Dragonborn:Miraak (person)|Miraak]] to rebuild the temple. You may also notice that you are not the only unenslaved person around, as [[Dragonborn:Skaal Village|Skaal]] resident, [[Dragonborn:Frea|Frea]], will be attempting to contact the mindless builders. Enter the center of the structure and the quest will begin with Frea seeking you out. She explains that she is there to either free or avenge her people, revealing that the workers are from [[Dragonborn:Skaal_Village|her village]]. She is also knowledgeable about the return of Miraak and will offer you companionship to help defeat him. Her assistance starts with locating the entrance to the underground Temple. Soon afterward, a gate will open and two [[Dragonborn:Cultist|cultists]] will come rushing out, revealing the entrance. Dispose of them and follow Frea into the temple.

===Temple of Miraak===
[[File:DB-quest-The_Temple_Of_Miraak_02.jpg|thumb|right|[[Dragonborn:Frea|Frea]] waits until the path is clear.]]
Go through the first corridor and check the neighboring rooms for a few healing potions and a chest with minor loot. Proceed north until you reach a room with a [[Skyrim:Pressure Plate|pressure plate]] that triggers [[Skyrim:Dart Trap|darts]]. Two cultists will attack as well, but Frea will quickly show that she is a capable warrior and kill them on the spot. More pressure plates can be found in the next room, both of them triggering [[Skyrim:Battering Ram|battering rams]]. Avoid them and head west. Pull the lever to open the gate into what appears to be a torture-showroom, with several skeletons in cages and a throne that provides a good view of the mayhem. Frea will spot something near the throne but reckons it’s impossible to reach. The task is of course left to you. Next to the broken stairs, jump onto the overturned pillar and from there, jump down to the platform and the throne. Claim the contents from the boss-leveled chest and jump back down. As you approach the bloody steps underneath the cages, a boss-leveled [[Skyrim:Draugr|draugr]] will break out of his sarcophagus and attack. When walking down the stairs, more cultists will show up. Finish the fights and continue forward. Activate the handle to gain access to the northeastern tunnel and fight the draugr who resides there. When you reach another pressure plate and a [[Skyrim:Swinging Blades|swinging blades]] trap, you will be attacked on all sides by leveled draugr. The path now splits, but both paths will land you in the same catacombs with quick access to a huge chamber protected by yet another pressure plate triggering [[Skyrim:Flame Spout Trap|flame spouts]]. In the chamber, quite a few swinging blades will activate. Frea will order you to solve the problem, and even make herself comfortable while she waits. The blades' area of effect is easily avoided by simply hugging the walls of the chamber. Stop the traps by activating the handle on the other side of the room and Frea will come walking up to you. Head through the door with her and face a closed iron gate. The adjacent window reveals a handle, so make your way there and activate it. There is also a chain in the room behind the gate that reveals a chamber with a chest. Behind the gate is another huge chamber, and several raised wooden bridges will fall into place when you enter. Two leveled draugr and a cultist will be waiting to the south. Dispose of them all and enter the [[Dragonborn:Temple of Miraak Sanctum|Sanctum]].

===Sanctum===
[[File:DB-quest-The_Temple_Of_Miraak_03.jpg|thumb|right|The Gatekeeper attacks.]]
The path ahead is quite narrow and leads onto a bridge where you will encounter at least six [[Skyrim:Skeleton|skeletons]]. Next up are several draugr bursting out of their coffins, along with more pressure plates triggering battering rams. You will now be in the chamber you just crossed on the bridge. To the right is a passage leading to a room with several potions, coin purses, and two spell tomes: an apprentice level [[Skyrim:Alteration|Alteration]] and an apprentice level [[Skyrim:Conjuration|Conjuration]] spell tome. Take what you want and return to the huge room where you will encounter more draugr and cultists. Head around the pit in the center of the room and go west. Before long, you will hear the easily recognizable chant from a [[Skyrim:Word Wall|word wall]] in the room ahead. The room contains both the word wall and a provocative trophy, hung there by Miraak as a symbol of his superiority. While Frea comments on this, go and learn the first word for the [[Dragonborn:Dragon Aspect|Dragon Aspect]] shout. This will cause numerous draugr to attack, including the unique [[Dragonborn:Gatekeeper|Gatekeeper]]. After the battle, search the Gatekeeper for the [[Dragonborn:Temple of Miraak Key|temple key]] then find his sarcophagus on the western wall and unlock the door behind it. It opens to a macabre dining table, the skeletal guests still in their seats. Behind the table is a tunnel leading to a larger dining area with a kitchen behind. When you reach the kitchen, Frea will realize it is a dead end and will order you to have a look around while she backtracks to the dining area.

The kitchen contains an [[Skyrim:Alchemy Lab|alchemy lab]], a few potions and ingredients, and most importantly, a path in the southeastern corner leading to a handle. When activated, a hidden door in the dining area will open up. In the next chamber, Frea will hint that there may be something in there that fills in the holes in the story of [[Dragonborn:Miraak (person)|Miraak]], and will head into the next room and gaze at the statues. Similar to her actions back in the trapped room, she will ask you to activate the button while she waits at a safe distance. The handle removes the grate in the floor and reveals a wooden staircase going down. Head down and follow the path to another set of stairs. Proceed through two empty rooms until you find a handle lowering the rock wall. Continue down yet more stairs and open the door. A huge chamber will be revealed, guarded by draugr and skeletons, and booby-trapped with [[Skyrim:Tripwire|tripwires]] triggering [[Skyrim:Falling Boulders|falling boulders]]. Make your way to the top and face a boss-leveled draugr, being sure to loot the chest behind his sarcophagus. Activate the chain on the southern wall and follow the serpentine path until you reach your target, a pedestal holding a [[Dragonborn:Black Book (book)|Black Book]], ''[[Dragonborn:Black_Book:_Waking_Dreams_(book)|Waking Dreams]]''.

===Waking Dreams===
[[File:DB-quest-The_Temple_Of_Miraak_04.jpg|thumb|right|''"Who are you to dare set foot here?"'']]
When you read the Black Book, dark tentacles will reach out of the book's pages and grab you. You will be transported to a [[Dragonborn:Apocrypha (Waking Dreams)|strange realm]] just in time to see [[DB:Sahrotaar|a dragon]] arrive. Nearby are a few [[Dragonborn:Seeker|seekers]] standing guard and Miraak himself. You will be unable to move and can do nothing but listen to Miraak's monologue: ''"Who are you to dare set foot here? Ahh... You are Dragonborn. I can feel it. And yet..."'' At this point his dialogue will differ depending on your progress of the main quest (see [[#Notes|notes]]). After the conditional comment he will continue, ''"You have no idea of the true power a Dragonborn can wield!"'' He will then demonstrate the Dragon Aspect shout. ''"Mul... Qah Diiv! This realm is beyond you. You have no power here. And it is only a matter of time before Solstheim is also mine. I already control the minds of its people. Soon they will finish building my temple, and I can return home."'' He will then turn to the four seekers and say: ''"Send him/her back where he/she came from. He/She can await my arrival with the rest of Tamriel."'' The seekers will then shower you with magic and while you slowly lose consciousness, you can see Miraak mount the dragon and fly away. Moments later, you will be back in the [[Dragonborn:Temple of Miraak Sanctum|Sanctum]] and Frea will demand an explanation. As soon as she realizes the potential danger of the situation, she will suggest that you follow her to her village and talk to her father, [[Dragonborn:Storn Crag-Strider|Storn Crag-Strider]]. This ends the quest and begins the next in line, [[Dragonborn:The_Fate_of_the_Skaal|The Fate of the Skaal]].

===Achievements===
One [[Dragonborn:Achievements|achievement]] is unlocked when you complete this quest:
* {{Achievement|The Temple of Miraak (achievement)|descr=no}}

==Notes==
* During your encounter with Miraak his dialogue will differ, based on your progress and how many dragons you have killed. This table shows the dialogue bits and the conditions:
:{|class=wikitable width=90%
! Dialogue !! Conditions
|-
| ''"You have done little beyond killing a few dragons."''||Less than 10 dragons killed
|-
| ''"You have defeated dragons, yes, but still..."''||Between 10 and 25 dragons killed
|-
|''"You have slain a great many dragons, I see. And yet..."''||Over 25 dragons killed
|-
|''"So you have slain Alduin... Well done. I could have slain him myself, back when I walked the earth, but I chose a different path."''||Completed [[Skyrim:Dragonslayer|Dragonslayer]]
|}

*When you kill the very first dragon after completing this quest, Miraak will appear and steal the soul from you, as he will 25% of the time with other dragons you kill until the Dragonborn questline is completed. His appearances are scripted, and will occur regardless of if you are in Skyrim or on Solstheim. He is unable to be attacked or interacted with, as he will appear in an ethereal state and is a "ghost". The only option when encountering him is to just let him steal the soul from you. His first appearance is ''always'' guaranteed; afterwards he will only appear 25% of the time. There is one exception in some cases for the first dragon you kill; see the notes of the next quest for details.

== Bugs ==
{{Bug|Frea may randomly appear at locations throughout the temple, and may not follow you once the next quest has begun. If you dismiss your follower, or tell them to wait outside, and re-enter the temple, she should re-appear near where you found the book. This seems to happen because the script that causes her to lead you out on the next quest only activates if you speak to her near that spot.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|After reading the Black Book and being teleported to Apocrypha, Miraak may be cut off after the first line "The time comes soon when..." and you then are transported back to the Sanctum unable to move indefinitely. This can be fixed by saving in Apocrypha and then loading afterwards.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|After reading the Black Book, completing the dialogue, and leaving, Frea will say her lines and walk back to Skaal Village but will never talk to Storn and the next quest will not begin.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|The variable Miraak checks when determining how many dragons you have slain is never updated by the game, resulting in him always saying, ''"You have done little beyond killing a few dragons."'' unless you have slain Alduin.|UDBP|2.0.2|the dialogue is instead determined by how many dragon souls you have absorbed}}

== Quest Stages ==
{{Journal Entries
|5||After freeing the Skaal from the magic controlling them, Storn, the shaman, has asked me to seek out a member of their tribe who is still missing. I need to look to the temple near the center of Solstheim to find Frea and make sure she is safe.
{{Quest Objective|5|Find Frea}}
|10||I've found Miraak's temple on Solstheim. Now I need to find out why people are trying to kill me on his behalf.
{{Quest Objective|10|Talk to Frea}}
|20||{{Quest Objective|20|Defeat Miraak}}
|25||I was successful in defeating Miraak after he attacked me, but he has disappeared. I should search his temple to learn more about what's going on here.
{{Quest Objective|25|Explore the Temple}}
|30||I've found Frea, a warrior from the Skaal Village on Solstheim. She is also searching the Temple of Miraak, looking for answers. We've agreed that we need to find where Miraak's power is coming from.
{{Quest Objective|30|Find the source of Miraak's power}}
|40||After delving through the Temple of Miraak, Frea and I have discovered a strange book deep within secret chambers. Frea believes it has a connection to what's happening on Solstheim. I should read it to learn what secrets it holds.
{{Quest Objective|40|Read the Black Book}}
|60||After searching the Temple of Miraak, Frea and I found a strange book. When I read it, I was transported to some other realm, where I learned that Miraak is still alive and plans to return to Solstheim. I need to tell Frea what I've seen.
{{Quest Objective|60|Talk to Frea}}
|200|fin|After finding Frea, and searching the Temple of Miraak, we discovered a strange book. When I read it, I was transported to some other realm and learned that Miraak is still alive and claims he'll return soon. Frea has suggested we take this information back to her village, and see what can be done to stop Miraak.
|''Unknown''||{{Quest Objective|50|Approach Miraak}}
[[Category:Skyrim-SRQRP-Unknown Objectives]]
|missing=0, 22, 50
}}
{{Skyrim Quest Stages Notes}}

{{Quest Footer|Prev=[[Dragonborn:Dragonborn (quest)|Dragonborn]]|Next=[[Dragonborn:The Fate of the Skaal|The Fate of the Skaal]]}}

Skyrim:Chief Larak

2017-11-05T00:07:14Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1699773 by 78.129.109.87 (talk) Supposition should go on the talk page

{{NPC Summary
|essential=
|house=[[Skyrim:Larak's Longhouse|Larak's Longhouse]]
|stronghold=[[Skyrim:Mor Khazgur|Mor Khazgur]]
|race=Orc
|gender=Male
|class=[[Skyrim:Warrior (class)|Warrior]]
|faction={{Faction|Block Trainer}}; {{Faction|Blood-Kin of the Orcs}}; {{Faction|Favor017QuestGiverFaction}}; {{Faction|JobOrcChiefFaction}}; {{Faction|Skill Trainer}}; {{Faction|TownMorKhazgurFaction}}; {{Faction|Tribal Orcs}}
|refid=0005B683
|baseid=00019951
|image=SR-npc-Chief Larak.jpg
|imgdesc=Chief Larak
|train=Block, Master
|class_details=[[Skyrim:TrainerBlockMaster|TrainerBlockMaster]]
|skills='''[[Skyrim:Block|Block]]''', '''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]], [[Skyrim:Sneak|Sneak]]
|aggress=Aggressive
|level=15
|moral=No Crime
|health=200
|magicka=90
|stamina=120
|voicetype=MaleOrc
}}
'''Chief Larak''' is the [[Skyrim:Orc|Orc]] [[Skyrim:TrainerBlockMaster|warrior]] and chieftain of the [[Skyrim:Mor Khazgur|Mor Khazgur]] [[Skyrim:Orc Strongholds|Orc stronghold]]. He is a master shield-bearer and can thus [[Skyrim:Trainers|train]] you in the art of [[Skyrim:Block|Block]] up to skill level 90. As with many orc chieftains, Larak will challenge you to a [[Skyrim:Brawl|brawl]] for the bet of 100 gold. He is the son of [[Skyrim:Sharamph|Sharamph]], brother of [[Skyrim:Bagrak|Bagrak]], father of [[Skyrim:Borgakh the Steel Heart|Borgakh the Steel Heart]] and [[Skyrim:Olur|Olur]] and a husband to [[Skyrim:Shuftharz|Shuftharz]].

He wears [[Skyrim:Fur Armor|fur armor]] with a pair of [[Skyrim:Forsworn Boots|Forsworn boots]] and is armed with a leveled [[Skyrim:War Axe|war axe]] and [[Skyrim:Shield|shield]] that may both be up to [[Skyrim:Orcish|Orcish]] in quality. He also carries a pair of [[Skyrim:Ragged Trousers|ragged trousers]], the [[Skyrim:Key to Larak's Longhouse|key]] to [[Skyrim:Larak's Longhouse|Larak's Longhouse]] and [[Skyrim:Leveled Lists#Common|a selection of common loot and gold]].

He greets you with ''"You are speaking to Larak, chief of Mor Khazgur."'' He will also direct you to the other services available in the stronghold, saying ''"You should see my forge-wife, Shuftharz, if you need weapons or armor."'' and ''"My mother, Sharamph, knows many remedies you may wish to take with you."'' If you elect to train with him, he will remark ''"You wish to learn from the best, eh? So be it."'' He may also randomly remark on his position or his personal beliefs, saying ''"My place is chief and my challenge is to lead my people."'' or ''"I'm a strict follower of the old traditions. Honor, strength, deeds."''

His wife, Shuftharz, may mention her support for her husband, saying ''"The forge is strong and so is our chief, Larak. I'm content."'' Larak's sister Bagrak, however, seems to think he has not quite reached his full potential as chief yet, saying ''"Larak is strong, but he has much to prove as chief."''

Larak may be seen having random conversations with his mother or his son:

'''Sharamph''': ''"Malacath is pleased with your strength, Larak."'' 
'''Chief Larak''': ''"I am honored."''

'''Larak''': ''"The way you and your mother forge weapons is impressive.''" 
'''Olur''': ''"It's simple Orc smithing practice, my chief. Nothing that hasn't been passed down for years."'' 
'''Olur''': ''"I served in the Legion. Perhaps I'll show you some of their technique one of these days."''

{{NewLeft}}
== Related Quests ==
* {{Quest Link|Fight! Fight!}}
{{Skyrim Radiant Quest Note|npc=1}}

== Notes ==
* The game data notes Larak as 'InLawParent' and not as 'Parent' to both Borgakh and Olur, making it possible that Larak took in Borgakh and Olur as his own children.
* The game data marks Bagrak as a spouse to Larak, yet both Larak and Bagrak refer to Sharamph as their mother. Given that Orc women are married off to other outposts, it does seem strange that Bagrak would remain at Mor Khazgar if she is to be Larak's sister.

== Bugs ==
{{Bug|Sometimes when he is sitting in the chair outside the longhouse, he does not interact with anything.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|He may not brawl you.|vn=1}}
**This may be fixed by entering then exiting a building and trying again.
{{Stub|NPC}}

Skyrim:Battle for Whiterun (Stormcloaks)

2017-11-03T13:48:38Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1699170 by 71.89.240.172 (talk) CwSiegeObj is correct

<noinclude>{{Cleanup-srqrp
|writtenBy=Eddie the head
|checkedBy=
|reward=Multiple
|rewardChecked=
}}</noinclude>{{Trail|Quests|Stormcloaks}}
{{Quest Header
|Giver=[[Skyrim:Ulfric Stormcloak|Ulfric Stormcloak]]
|Reward=Leveled enchanted weapon; title of "Ice-Veins"
|Disp=
|Rep=
|Prev=[[Skyrim:Message to Whiterun (Stormcloaks)|Message to Whiterun]]
|Conc=
|Next=[[Skyrim:Liberation of Skyrim|Liberation of Skyrim]]
|Loc=[[Skyrim:Windhelm|Windhelm]], [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]]
|Image=SR-quest-Battle_for_Whiterun.jpg
|ImgDesc=The Stormcloaks begin their advance on the city of Whiterun.
|description=Take [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]] in the name of the [[Skyrim:Stormcloaks|Stormcloaks]].
|ID=CWSiegeObj
|Icon=SR-qico-Stormcloaks.png
|radiant=yes
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
#Get your orders from [[Skyrim:Ulfric Stormcloak|Ulfric]].
#Meet the [[Skyrim:Stormcloaks|Stormcloaks]] preparing for the attack.
#Storm [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]].
#Defeat [[Skyrim:Balgruuf the Greater|Jarl Balgruuf the Greater]].

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Making it to the Gates===
[[Image:SR-quest-Battle_for_Whiterun4.jpg|thumb|left|The Whiterun guard have stationed themselves atop the walls in order to defend the city...]]
After finishing the previous quest, Jarl [[Skyrim:Ulfric Stormcloak|Ulfric Stormcloak]] will tell you that you are going to help take [[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]]. Report to [[Skyrim:Galmar Stone-Fist|Galmar Stone-Fist]] for orders, who will direct you to meet him outside the city.

Head to the [[Skyrim:Whiterun Military Camp|Whiterun Military Camp]], southwest of Whiterun, and you will notice that the besieging of Whiterun has already begun. Head to where Galmar is briefing the men on the attack and listen in. He will say your destination is the drawbridge that has been raised to keep the attackers out.

Once the rallying of the troops is done, charge in with Galmar and the troops. Don't worry too much about killing all the [[Skyrim:Imperial Legion|Imperials]], as more spawn. When you reach the first set of wooden barricades is also when you meet the first enemies. Breaking through the barricades is easy. Hit them a few times with a weapon and they break. Your journal will then tell you to lower the drawbridge. Move up the path to the small wooden bridge with the stone walls to your side, head up there, and go up the walkway. You will see two drawbridge levers over the drawbridge. Pull one. The bridge will fall, and the soldiers will run into the city.
{{NewLine}}
===Inside the City===
[[Image:SR-quest-Battle_for_Whiterun2.jpg|thumb|right|...which is quickly overwhelmed by the Stormcloaks.]]
Head into the city. Your destination now is [[Skyrim:Dragonsreach|Dragonsreach]] (It may be safer to stay with Galmar and the soldiers). Several barriers block the entrance to the plains district, which are destroyed after 3 blows from any weapon (power attacks make no difference). Upon entering Dragonsreach, three soldiers will charge at you, but they will die easily. Continue up the stairs, where [[Skyrim:Balgruuf the Greater|Balgruuf]] will shout about not letting you take the city without fighting back. Then he, three guards, and his Housecarl, [[Skyrim:Irileth|Irileth]], will attack you. Kill the soldiers. After the jarl is reduced to 25% health, he will stop the fight and surrender.

[[Skyrim:Vignar Gray-Mane|Vignar Gray-Mane]] will approach the jarl and they will have a short conversation. Galmar will stop the conversation after a while, Vignar will walk off after a few more words and Balgruuf will address you for a minute. With Balgruuf stepping down, Vignar takes the throne as the new Jarl of Whiterun. The quest will end there and the next quest, [[Skyrim:Liberation of Skyrim|Liberation of Skyrim]], will begin.

When you return to Ulfric Stormcloak in Windhelm, he commends you for the victory and rewards you with an enchanted leveled weapon and gives you the title "Ice-Veins".

==Notes==
*The Whiterun Guards faced in this battle are significantly lower level than those normally patrolling the city.
*Bodies will quite often disappear during this quest - this is intentional to reduce lag and is not a bug.
*After the battle, if you have an outstanding bounty in the Whiterun Hold, it will be erased.
*This quest, [[Skyrim:Battle for Whiterun (Imperial)|Battle for Whiterun (Imperial)]], [[Skyrim:Battle for Solitude|Battle for Solitude]], and [[Skyrim:Battle for Windhelm|Battle for Windhelm]] are all different radiant versions of the same quest.
*From here on, Stormcloak Soldiers will take over as guards of the Whiterun Hold, though Whiterun Guards will continue to patrol [[Skyrim:Riverwood|Riverwood]]. Whether this is intentional or not is unknown.
*Taking the carriage directly to Whiterun automatically skips the objective to "Break through the Enemy Barricade".
*After getting your orders at the Whiterun Military camp, you can head straight to Windhelm. The battle will be won in your absence, but Ulfric Stormcloak will be disappointed that you ran away.
*[[Skyrim:Severio Pelagia|Severio Pelagia]] dies at the beginning of this quest.
*If [[Skyrim:Lucia|Lucia]]{{HF}} has been adopted, she will be transferred to the Bannered Mare until after the battle is over. This happens because her editor location is there and CWCitizensFlee will pick her up in one of the aliases.
* [[Skyrim:The Bannered Mare|The Bannered Mare]] will have a barricade across the main entrance and both doors will be expert locked, however if you pick the lock, both [[Skyrim:Hulda|Hulda]] and [[Skyrim:Saadia|Saadia]] will have their normal speech options, welcoming you and are willing to trade.
* [[Skyrim:Breezehome|Breezehome]] becomes locked again, key required.
* [[Skyrim:Honningbrew Meadery|Honningbrew Meadery]] is apprentice locked during this battle, however if you pick the lock [[Skyrim:Sabjorn|Sabjorn]] will be back in charge with both him and [[Skyrim:Mallus Maccius|Mallus Maccius]] telling you to get out and treating you as if they don't know you. You are unable to trade with either of them.
* You will be unable to enter [[Skyrim:Jorrvaskr|Jorrvaskr]] during or after the battle as all the doors require a key.
* Unused files suggest Jarl Balgruuf the Greater was intended to flee the battle through a secret passage located behind the throne rather than stay and fight.
* Stealing items causes a bounty to be applied to Eastmarch rather than Whiterun.

==Bugs==
{{Bug|After defeating the Jarl and getting him to surrender, the quest pointer may continue to point to him, but no interaction is possible and the quest does not update.|confirmed=1}}
**Striking the Jarl and then paying off the bounty may fix this.
{{Bug|The doors to Jorrvaskr and the Underforge will become locked during this mission, and may not unlock after it's completed. Since the doors require an unavailable key, this renders the buildings (as well as the Companions inside) inaccessible to you.|confirmed=1}}
**{{pc22}} You can unlock the doors using the <code>unlock</code> [[Skyrim:Console|console]] command.
** Fast-traveling to any town then back to Whiterun may resolve the issue.
{{Bug|You may not be able to break barricades as a werewolf.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|[[Skyrim:Aela the Huntress|Aela the Huntress]] may disappear if she is your wife at the time. She may come back eventually after you have moved on to the next quest, [[Skyrim:Liberation of Skyrim|Liberation of Skyrim]].|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|The Stormcloak soldiers might attack your follower(s). It is advised to order any followers to wait outside the gates before entering.|vn=1}} {{vn|Needs testing to determine if this is due to a bug or something else}}
{{Bug|Receiving the quest update "force Jarl Balgruuf the Greater to surrender" may cause the game to crash upon entering Whiterun or, if the city is entered beforehand, the game may crash immediately upon receiving it.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Killing Whiterun guards instead of Imperial soldiers will incur a bounty, though it will be removed after the battle.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Entering Chillfurrow Farm during this quest may end it prematurely.}}
{{Bug|Upon entering Whiterun, there may be no Imperial soldiers and you may be unable to get Balgruuf to surrender.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Ulfric may not give you any orders before the battle, which will prevent the quest from progressing.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Upon completion of the quest when you are asked to return to Ulfric, it may not let you continue, and the normal dialog will appear.|confirmed=1}}

==Quest Stages==
Only the quest stages and objectives that are possibly relevant to this radiant version of the quest are shown.
{{Journal Entries
|name=Battle for Whiterun
|1||Ulfric Stormcloak has ordered me to join Galmar Stone-Fist in taking the city of Whiterun.
|8999|fail|
|9000|fin|We have taken the city of Whiterun. Proving the righteousness of our cause and the fierceness of our warriors.{{VN|Does this display? Looks like it shouldn't in the CK.}}
|''Unknown''||{{Quest Objective|1000|Get your Orders from Galmar Stone-Fist}}
{{Quest Objective|1005|Break through the Enemy Barricade}}
{{Quest Objective|1015|Follow Galmar Stone-Fist}}
{{Quest Objective|1020|Open the Exterior Gate}}
{{Quest Objective|1030|Open the Drawbridge}}
{{Quest Objective|1050|Enter Whiterun}}
{{Quest Objective|1060|Break through the First Barricade}}
{{Quest Objective|1070|Break through the Second Barricade}}
{{Quest Objective|1080|Break through the Final Barricade}}
{{Quest Objective|1200|Force Jarl Balgruuf the Greater to surrender}}
{{Quest Objective|1210|Accept Jarl Balgruuf the Greater's surrender}}
[[Category:Skyrim-SRQRP-Unknown Objectives]]
|missing=9999
}}
{{Skyrim Quest Stages Notes}}

Oblivion:Origin of the Gray Prince

2017-10-31T14:45:22Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1697974 by 92.21.203.115 (talk) It doesn't give fame; see the bugs section of this page.

{{Trail|Quests|Imperial City}}
{{Quest Header
|Giver=[[Oblivion:Agronak gro-Malog|Agronak gro-Malog]] at the [[Oblivion:Arena District|Arena District]] Bloodworks
|Icon=OB-qico-General1.png
|Reward=Permanent +3 to [[Oblivion:Blade|Blade]], [[Oblivion:Block|Block]] and [[Oblivion:Athletics|Athletics]]
|ID=MS52
|Loc=[[Oblivion:Imperial City|Imperial City]], [[Oblivion:Crowhaven|Crowhaven]]
|Image=OB-quest-Origin of the Gray Prince.jpg
|ImgDesc=What dark secret lies in [[Oblivion:Crowhaven|Crowhaven]]?
|description=[[Oblivion:Agronak gro-Malog|Agronak gro-Malog]], the Imperial [[Oblivion:Arena (faction)|Arena]] Grand Champion asks you to find proof of his noble birthright.
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Speak with Agronak gro-Malog about the Gray Prince.
# Journey to and through Crowhaven until you find Lord Lovidicus.
# Defeat or evade Lord Lovidicus, and find his journal.
# Return to Agronak with the journal.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===The Origin===
Speak to [[Oblivion:Agronak gro-Malog|Agronak gro-Malog]] in the [[Oblivion:Arena District|Arena]] Bloodworks about "The Gray Prince" to begin the quest. He asks you to find proof of his noble birth, marks the location of [[Oblivion:Crowhaven|Crowhaven]] on your map and gives you a mysterious key, but he is unsure what it opens. Journey to Crowhaven (northwest of [[Oblivion:Anvil|Anvil]]) to begin your search. Bring cure disease potions or spells if possible as you may catch something from one of the denizens of this forlorn place.

Enter Crowhaven—the presence of evil is unmistakable—and explore, killing all in your path until you find the locked "Old Wooden Door" (gro-Malogs' mysterious key will open it) and continue inside. You'll eventually find [[Oblivion:Lord Lovidicus|Lord Lovidicus]] who will attack you on sight. Dispose of him and continue on, exploring the area to find several chests, various small treasures, and the [[Oblivion:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus|journal]] of the recently departed Lord Lovidicus on a table. If you sneak, no fighting is necessary. Only the journal is needed; take it, and leave if you choose.

===Reward===
Return with the journal to Agronak gro-Malog in the [[Oblivion:Arena District|Arena]] Bloodworks, and receive the [[Oblivion:Free Skill Boosts#Gray Prince's Training|Gray Prince's Training]] (permanent +3 to [[Oblivion:Blade|Blade]], [[Oblivion:Block|Block]] and [[Oblivion:Athletics|Athletics]]) as your reward. Note that this training is treated as a permanent ability by the game and does '''not''' count toward leveling up, unlike most other [[Oblivion:Free Skill Boosts|free skill boosts]].

After Agronak trains you he will read the journal. He will be totally horrified at his vampire origins, so much in fact, that he will be completely convinced that he is a spawn of evil and does not deserve to live. As a result, he will not fight back when you fight him at the end of the [[Oblivion:Arena (faction)|Arena Quest]].

==Notes==
* If you plan on completing this quest be careful not to say that you wish to challenge Agronak for his title of Grand Champion, as you will no longer be able to talk to him. Doing this will result in having to kill him and thus failing the quest.
* It is possible to yield to Lord Lovidicus but the respite is short-lived. He will say "''Release! Sweet Release! After all these years, these decades, I am finally free! And you! So... so fresh! I must feed! I must feed! Agghhhhh!''" and resume combat.
** He also has unique combat dialog, saying "''I have not eaten in decades... YOU will be my feast! Rrragh!''" , "''Food!'".

==Bugs==
{{Bug|Killing Agronak in the Arena after completing this quest will be counted as a murder by the game as he is a non-evil NPC who does not attack you (though this will not result in a bounty only because there are no other actual NPCs in the Arena at the time) so if you have not murdered anyone before completing this quest line, it will attract the attention of the [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]]. However, killing him in the Arena ''without'' completing this quest line will NOT attract the Brotherhood's attention.|UOP}}
{{Bug|Lord Lovidicus is a vampire (he has all of a vampire's bonuses and abilities), however it is not possible to catch [[Oblivion:Porphyric Hemophilia|Porphyric Hemophilia]] from him. He does not leave [[Oblivion:Vampire Dust|Vampire Dust]] on his dead body.|UOP}}
{{Bug|The [[Oblivion:Journal_of_the_Lord_Lovidicus|journal]] of Lord Lovidicus is a quest item, and will become stuck in your inventory if the quest is terminated before completion by [[Oblivion:Agronak_gro-Malog|Agronak gro-Malog's]] death.|UOP}}
{{Bug|This quest was supposed to add a point to your fame upon talking to Agronak after finding the journal. An improper script command was used to modify your fame <code>player.modav fame 1</code>, so the fame statistic is not incremented correctly (it should be <code>modpcfame 1</code>).|UOP}}

==Journal Entries==
{| class="wikitable"
|-
!colspan=3| Origin of the Gray Prince (MS52)
|-
! Stage
! Finishes Quest
! Journal Entry
|-
|10||||Agronak gro-Malog, the Imperial Arena Grand Champion, has sent me on a quest to find proof of his noble birthright. I must journey now to the west, to a place called Crowhaven, and begin my search. Gro-Malog has provided me with a key I will surely need, but even he is unsure what it opens.
|-
|20||||I have entered Crowhaven. Somewhere inside I will unlock the truth that Agronak gro-Malog is searching for. I should be cautious, however. The fort has long since lost its noble trappings, and the presence of evil is unmistakable...
|-
|30||||I have discovered the Journal of the Lord Lovidicus. It does indeed contain information about Agronak gro-Malog's birth, but proves he was the spawn of a vampire! Agronak won't be happy to hear this, but it is the proof he wanted. I must take the journal to him at the Imperial City Arena Bloodworks.
|-
|100||align="center"|{{Yes}}||I have given the Journal of the Lord Lovidicus to Agronak gro-Malog. In return for my assistance, he has shared some of his combat knowledge.
|-
|115||align="center"|{{Yes}}||Agronak gro-Malog has been killed, and my quest to discover his true identity can never be completed.
|}
{{OB Journal Entries Notes}}

Oblivion:Fame

2017-10-31T14:43:57Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1697975 by 92.21.203.115 (talk) It gives no fame due to a bug; see the notes section of this page.

{{Trail}}
'''Fame''' is a measure of how well known your heroism is among the general population of Cyrodiil. It is found in the miscellaneous statistics menu, and is zero when you start the game. You can increase your Fame by helping others or by completing quests in a virtuous manner.

[[Oblivion:Infamy|Infamy]] is the counterpart to Fame, and measures how notorious a character is for their misdeeds. Neither Fame nor Infamy can be gained in the [[Shivering:Shivering Isles|Shivering Isles]].

==What Fame Affects==
* Fame increases NPCs' [[Oblivion:Disposition|disposition]]: disposition increases 3 points for every 10 points of Fame. This disposition increase is capped at +20 (reached at a Fame of 67). Further increases in Fame will not have any further effects on disposition (even if you have [[Oblivion:Infamy|Infamy]] points). The benefits of increased disposition are detailed in the article on [[Oblivion:Disposition|Disposition]].

* Certain quests have a Fame requirement before the quest can be started:
** [[Oblivion:The_Order of the Virtuous Blood_(quest)|Order of the Virtuous Blood]] requires a Fame of at least 5.
** [[Oblivion:Lifting the Vale|Lifting the Vale]] requires a Fame of at least 10.
** Purchasing the most expensive and largest [[Oblivion:Houses|houses]] in Cyrodiil ([[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] and [[Oblivion:Skingrad|Skingrad]]) is not possible unless the character has Fame of at least 12 and 15 respectively.
** Master level [[Oblivion:Blade Training|Blade Training]] requires either a Fame or Infamy of at least 20.

* Altars of the [[Oblivion:Nine Divines|Nine Divines]] cannot be activated unless your Infamy is less than your Fame. [[Oblivion:Wayshrines|Wayshrines]] can be activated if your Fame is less than your Infamy, but each wayshrine can only be activated once per Fame point (unless the [[Oblivion:Knights of the Nine|Knights of the Nine]] official plug-in has been installed).

* Each [[Oblivion:Magical Stones|Heaven Stone]] will only grant a character its unique Greater Power once the character has reached sufficient {{Renown}} (requirement is between 10-70).

==Fame Points==
You can earn '''198'''{{Save Named Values|maxfame|198}} points of Fame ('''103''' for completing quests, '''31''' for Arena matches, and '''64''' for closing Oblivion gates).
===[[Oblivion:Main Quest|Main Quest]]===
{| class="wikitable sortable collapsible"
|-
! Quest !! Fame
|-
| [[Oblivion:Deliver the Amulet|Deliver the Amulet]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Breaking the Siege of Kvatch|Breaking the Siege of Kvatch]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:The Battle for Castle Kvatch|The Battle for Castle Kvatch]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Weynon Priory_(quest)|Weynon Priory]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:The Path of Dawn|The Path of Dawn]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Dagon Shrine|Dagon Shrine]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Spies|Spies]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Blood of the Daedra|Blood of the Daedra]] || 0 (1 if [[Tes4Mod:Unofficial Oblivion Patch|UOP]])
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bruma Gate|Bruma Gate]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Allies for Bruma|Allies for Bruma]] || 7 or fewer
|-
| [[Oblivion:The Wayward Knight|The Wayward Knight]] || 2 or fewer
|-
| [[Oblivion:Blood of the Divines|Blood of the Divines]] || 0 (2 if UOP)
|-
| [[Oblivion:Miscarcand_(quest)|Miscarcand]] || 2
|-
| [[Oblivion:Defense of Bruma|Defense of Bruma]] || 1
|-
| [[Oblivion:Great Gate|Great Gate]] || 2
|-
| [[Oblivion:Paradise|Paradise]] || 0 (2 if UOP)
|-
| [[Oblivion:Light the Dragonfires|Light the Dragonfires]] || 3
|- class=sortbottom
| |Total || 16 to 25 (+5 if UOP)
|}
Notes:
*In some of these quests you have to close Oblivion Gates. This gives you extra Fame points (see below) which are disregarded in this table.
*In [[Oblivion:Allies for Bruma|Allies for Bruma]], you gain a Fame point for each city that sends aid to Bruma.
*In [[Oblivion:The Wayward Knight|The Wayward Knight]], you earn 2 points if [[Oblivion:Farwil Indarys|Farwil Indarys]] escapes the Plane of Oblivion alive. If he dies, you earn 1 point or, if you killed him, no points.
''Total Fame:'' '''25''' (including all optional quests and excluding closed Oblivion Gates).

===[[Oblivion:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]]===
Completing each Fighters Guild quest gives you 1 Fame point, except the last three duties from [[Oblivion:Modryn Oreyn|Modryn Oreyn]] ([[Oblivion:Information Gathering|Information Gathering]], [[Oblivion:Infiltration|Infiltration]], [[Oblivion:The Hist|The Hist]]) which give you no Fame.

In some quests you can lose Fame points if your completion was not entirely good (see quest pages for details).

''Total Fame:'' '''16'''

===[[Oblivion:Mages Guild|Mages Guild]]===
Completing Mages Guild quests mostly result in gaining 1 Fame for each. There are some exceptions:
*In [[Oblivion:Fingers of the Mountain|Fingers of the Mountain]] you can gain 1 (Earana) or 2 (Teekeeus) Fame points, depending on [[Oblivion:Fingers_of_the_Mountain#Return_the_Book|whom you return the book to]].
*Completing [[Oblivion:Join the Mages Guild|Join the Mages Guild]] gives you an extra point.
*Completing [[Oblivion:A Mage's Staff|A Mage's Staff]] gives you 2 points.
*Completing [[Oblivion:Confront the King|Confront the King]] gives you 3 points.
''Total Fame:'' '''23'''

===[[Oblivion:Arena (faction)|Arena]]===
You earn 1 Fame point for each match before Champion match, and 10 points when you become Grand Champion.

''Total Fame:'' '''31'''

===[[Oblivion:Daedric_Quests|Daedric Quests]]===
Acquiring any Artifact from Daedric Lords (except [[Oblivion:Namira|Namira]]) gives you 1 Fame point.

''Total Fame:'' '''14'''

===[[Oblivion:Oblivion Gates|Oblivion Gates]]===
Closing each Oblivion gate (random or fixed) gives either 1 or 2 Fame points. Random Oblivion gates (of which there can be up to fifty) will always give 1 Fame when a Sigil Stone is taken. Although some Planes of Oblivion may contain two gates (i.e., [[Oblivion:Random_Oblivion_World_5|Random Oblivion World 5]] and [[Oblivion:Random_Oblivion_World_6|Random Oblivion World 6]]), the player still only receives 1 Fame per Sigil Stone.

The ten [[Oblivion:Oblivion_Gates#Fixed_Gates|fixed Oblivion gates]] award Fame differently.
* The Great Gate does not award any Fame.
* The Kvatch, Fort Sutch, and Bruma gates give 1 Fame each when a gate's Sigil Stone is taken.
* The Cheydinhal gate gives 1 Fame after the gate is closed (when you appear back in Tamriel).
* The Anvil, Bravil, Chorrol, Leyawiin, and Skingrad gates give 2 Fame each (1 for the Sigil Stone, as normal, and 1 after the gate is closed).

''Total Fame:'' '''64'''

===Miscellaneous Quests===
In most of these quests, you will receive Fame no matter how you complete the quest. However, in some cases it is possible to receive Fame '''or''' Infamy depending on your choices during the quest (typically Infamy is caused by quest NPCs dying unnecessarily or prematurely). The notes indicate those quests where receiving Fame is not guaranteed. Full details are available on the individual quest pages.

{| class="wikitable sortable collapsible"
|-
! Location !! Quest !! Fame !!class=unsortable| Notes
|-
| [[Oblivion:Aleswell|Aleswell]] || [[Oblivion:Zero Visibility|Zero Visibility]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Anvil|Anvil]] || [[Oblivion:Where Spirits Have Lease|Where Spirits Have Lease]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Anvil|Anvil]] || [[Oblivion:The Siren's Deception|The Siren's Deception]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if one of the Sirens is killed prematurely.
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bravil|Bravil]] || [[Oblivion:The Forlorn Watchman (quest)|The Forlorn Watchman]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bravil|Bravil]] || [[Oblivion:Caught in the Hunt|Caught in the Hunt]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if [[Oblivion:Aleron Loche|Aleron Loche]] dies prematurely.
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bravil|Bravil]] || [[Oblivion:Through A Nightmare, Darkly|Through A Nightmare, Darkly]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bruma|Bruma]] || [[Oblivion:Two Sides of the Coin|Two Sides of the Coin]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if Arnora dies before you talk to Jorundr.
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bruma|Bruma]] || [[Oblivion:A Brotherhood Betrayed|A Brotherhood Betrayed]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if a quest NPC dies prematurely or if [[Oblivion:Raynil Dralas|Raynil Dralas]] escapes.
|-
| [[Oblivion:Bruma|Bruma]] || [[Oblivion:Lifting the Vale|Lifting the Vale]] || 2 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]] || [[Oblivion:A Brush with Death|A Brush with Death]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]] || [[Oblivion:Corruption and Conscience|Corruption and Conscience]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if you kill [[Oblivion:Ulrich Leland|Ulrich Leland]].
|-
| [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] || [[Oblivion:Separated at Birth|Separated at Birth]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] || [[Oblivion:Sins of the Father|Sins of the Father]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if you give the [[Oblivion:Honorblade of Chorrol|Honorblade of Chorrol]] to [[Oblivion:Fathis Ules|Fathis Ules]].
|-
| [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] || [[Oblivion:A Shadow Over Hackdirt|A Shadow Over Hackdirt]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] || [[Oblivion:Canvas the Castle|Canvas the Castle]] || 1 || 0 Fame (but no Infamy either) if you do not turn in the true culprit.
|-
| [[Oblivion:Crestbridge Camp|Crestbridge Camp]] || [[Oblivion:Goblin Trouble|Goblin Trouble]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:The_Imperial_City|Imperial City]] || [[Oblivion:The Collector|The Collector]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:The_Imperial_City|Imperial City]] || [[Oblivion:The Order of the Virtuous Blood (quest)|The Order of the Virtuous Blood]] || 1 || +1 Infamy instead of +1 Fame if you kill [[Oblivion:Roland Jenseric|Roland Jenseric]].
|-
| [[Oblivion:The_Imperial_City|Imperial City]] || [[Oblivion:Imperial Corruption|Imperial Corruption]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]] || [[Oblivion:Tears of the Savior|Tears of the Savior]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]] || [[Oblivion:Whom Gods Annoy|Whom Gods Annoy]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]] || [[Oblivion:Mazoga the Orc (quest)|Mazoga the Orc]] || 1 ||
|-
| [[Oblivion:Skingrad|Skingrad]] || [[Oblivion:Paranoia|Paranoia]] || 1 || +1 Fame only if you show [[Oblivion:Glarthir|Glarthir]]'s note to a town guard and have him executed.
|-
| [[Oblivion:Skingrad|Skingrad]] || [[Oblivion:Seeking Your Roots|Seeking Your Roots]] || 1 ||
|}
''Total Fame:'' '''25'''

== Notes ==
* Wearing the [[Oblivion:Gray Cowl of Nocturnal|Gray Cowl of Nocturnal]] gives you an alter-ego, the [[Oblivion:Gray Fox|Gray Fox]], and this alter-ego will gain Fame and Infamy independently of the character's identity while wearing it. Make sure you remove the Cowl if you want your character's main identity to receive Fame when completing quests.

* Large increases in Fame will occur if you use the [[Oblivion:Exploitable Glitches#Frostcrag Spire Glitch|Frostcrag Spire Glitch]] to obtain [[Oblivion:Sigil Stone|Sigil Stones]]. You will gain one fame point for each Sigil Stone obtained.

* It is impossible to remove Fame without console codes, so characters attempting to become infamous should avoid the quests listed above. Alternately, do the quests the infamous way.

{{Bug|[[Oblivion:Origin of the Gray Prince|Origin of the Gray Prince]] was supposed to give a Fame point but does not due to an error in the scripting.|UOP}}

{{Attributes in Oblivion}}

Oblivion:The Stone of St. Alessia

2017-10-31T09:46:24Z

Kitkat1749: Bugify

{{DEFAULTSORT:Stone of St. Alessia, The}}{{Trail|Quests|Fighters Guild}}{{Quest Header
|Giver=[[Oblivion:Azzan|Azzan]] at the [[Oblivion:Anvil Fighters Guild|Anvil Fighters Guild]]
|Icon=OB-qico-FightersGuild.png
|Reward=Three [[Oblivion:Potion of Healing|Strong Potions of Healing]], [[Oblivion:Fighters Guild#Quest Rewards|level-dependent gold]], Possible promotion to Guardian or Champion
|Fame=Fame +1
|ID=FGC05Stone
|Prev=[[Oblivion:Trolls_of_Forsaken_Mine|Trolls of Forsaken Mine]]
|Next=[[Oblivion:The Noble's Daughter|The Noble's Daughter]], [[Oblivion:Mystery at Harlun's Watch|Mystery at Harlun's Watch]] ''or'' [[Oblivion:Information Gathering|Information Gathering]]
|Loc=[[Oblivion:Bruma|Bruma]] and [[Oblivion:Sedor|Sedor]]
|AddAbove=
|AddBelow=
|Image=OB-quest-The Stone of St. Alessia.jpg
|ImgDesc=The Stone of St. Alessia in [[Oblivion:Sedor|Sedor]]
|description=The [[Oblivion:Stone of St. Alessia|Stone of St. Alessia]] has been stolen from the [[Oblivion:Great Chapel of Talos|Chapel of Talos]] in [[Oblivion:Bruma|Bruma]].
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
#Speak with Azzan in Anvil to receive this contract.
#Travel to the Chapel of Talos in Bruma and speak with [[Oblivion:Cirroc|Cirroc]] about the theft of the Stone of St. Alessia by bandits.
#Follow the bandits out of town - heading east - and you will encounter [[Oblivion:K%27Sharr|K'sharr]], one of their members.
#K'sharr will tell you that ogres stole the Stone from the bandits. The [[Oblivion:Savage Ogre|ogres]] are holed up in [[Oblivion:Sedor|Sedor]] - an Ayleid ruin (quite a ways) to the east.
#Proceed to Sedor and retrieve the Stone, evading or eliminating any ogres you encounter.
#Return the Stone to Cirroc and he will reward you with three [[Oblivion:Potions|Strong Potions of Healing]].
#Report back to Azzan for payment and he will inform you that he has no more contracts for you.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Demotion and Assignment===
Speak to Azzan in Anvil. He will tell you that [[Oblivion:Modryn_Oreyn|Modryn Oreyn]] has been drummed out of the Guild as a result of [[Oblivion:Viranus_Donton|Viranus Donton]]'s death at [[Oblivion:Forsaken_Mine|Forsaken Mine]]. If you have not yet done Burz's last two quests, Azzan will also inform you that you have been demoted to Defender for your part in the affair. If asked, he will tell you that you may be able to regain your former rank if you complete "a few contracts" first.

With that out of the way, Azzan will brief you on your next mission. The Stone of St. Alessia has been stolen from the Chapel of Talos in Bruma and you must recover it. Report to [[Oblivion:Cirroc|Cirroc]] at the chapel for further information.

===Pursuit===
When you find Cirroc, he will tell you the Stone was stolen by bandits last seen heading to the east, and urges you go after them. Once you do, your compass will lead you to [[Oblivion:K%27Sharr|K'Sharr]]. He will tell you that he and his cronies stole the Stone, but were ambushed by [[Oblivion:Savage Ogre|ogres]]. They stole the Stone in turn, leaving him as the only survivor. He believes the ogres are now at [[Oblivion:Sedor|Sedor]], an Ayleid ruin along the [[Oblivion:Unmarked_Roads#Bruma_to_the_Temple_of_the_Ancestor_Moths|road between Bruma and the Temple of the Ancestor Moths]]. K'Sharr will mark its location on your map. You can kill K'Sharr at this point if you wish. You will not receive a [[Oblivion:Bounty|bounty]] or gain any [[Oblivion:Infamy|infamy]] for doing so, although killing him can start the [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] questline.

===Recovery===
Proceed to Sedor, enter the ruin, and recover the Stone, sneaking past or killing any ogres you may encounter ''en route''. The Stone is in a locked room which must be opened via a two-step process. First, there is a pressure plate directly outside the room. This seemingly does nothing, but in fact opens the gate to a walkway which passes directly overhead. At the end of this walkway is a push block which opens the gate to the room itself. With a very high [[Oblivion:Acrobatics|Acrobatics]] skill and good timing, it is possible to jump up from the vicinity of the pressure plate and push the block from the apex of the jump.

===Reward===
Having recovered the Stone, return it to Cirroc, who will express his gratitude and give you what he can - three [[Oblivion:Potion of Healing|Strong Potions of Healing]]. Report back to Azzan to receive the standard [[Oblivion:Fighters Guild#Quest Rewards|level-dependent gold reward]] and one [[Oblivion:Fame|Fame]] point. He will also inform you that he has no more assignments for you.

There are several options at this point regarding promotions and your next quest:
* If this is the first Fighters Guild quest you have completed since [[Oblivion:Trolls of Forsaken Mine|Trolls of Forsaken Mine]], no promotions are available and you will need to go to [[Oblivion:Burz gro-Khash|Burz gro-Khash]] in [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]] for your next quest - [[Oblivion:The Noble's Daughter|The Noble's Daughter]].
* If you have completed The Noble's Daughter already (but not [[Oblivion:Mystery at Harlun's Watch|Mystery at Harlun's Watch]]), Azzan will now be willing to reinstate you to your previous rank of Guardian. Your next quest will be Mystery at Harlun's Watch.
* If you have already completed both of Burz' quests (The Noble's Daughter and Mystery at Harlun's Watch), you can now be promoted to the rank of Champion (Oreyn's previous title). Your next quest will come from [[Oblivion:Modryn Oreyn|Modryn Oreyn]], in his house in [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]]: [[Oblivion:Information Gathering|Information Gathering]].

==Bugs==
{{Bug|It is possible to [[Oblivion:Getting Around#Fast Travel|fast travel]] to Sedor after K'sharr marks it on your map, even if you have not been there before.|UOP}}
{{Bug|It is possible to pickpocket the stone back from Cirroc, however it is considered a quest item and cannot be dropped.|UOP}}

{{Bug|Azzan may neither offer this quest, nor demote you to the rank of Defender, after you have completed [[Oblivion:Trolls of Forsaken Mine|Trolls of Forsaken Mine]]. This can occur regardless of whether you have completed both quests given by Burz gro-Khash.|vn=1}}
**{{pc22}} To fix this, you may manually set your rank to Defender before speaking with Azzan, using the console command <code>Player.SetFactionRank 2228F 5</code>.

==Journal Entries==
{{Journal Entries
|10||Azzan has told me to report to the Chapel of Talos in Bruma and speak with the priest Cirroc about a contract.
|20||I've spoken to the priest Cirroc in Bruma. He would like me to retrieve a holy relic of the Church, the Stone of St. Alessia. He believes it was stolen by bandits recently, and he's heard that they were headed east out of town.
|30||I've found the lone survivor of the group of bandits that stole the Stone of St. Alessia. He and his men were attacked by ogres and left for dead. He tells me that the creatures took the Stone and all their other precious stones with them. He believes that the creatures live in the {{sic|Ayeleid|Ayleid}} ruin of Sedor.
|40||I have found the Stone of St. Alessia in Sedor. I should return it to Cirroc at the Temple of Talos in Bruma.
|50||I have returned the Stone of St. Alessia to Cirroc. As a show of his gratitude, he's given me some Strong Healing Potions. I should return to Azzan to collect my reward.
|100|fin|Azzan has paid me the balance of the contract. He tells me that he has no further contracts to offer, but I should speak with Burz gro-Khash in Cheydinhal.
}}
{{OB Journal Entries Notes}}
{{Quest Footer
|Prev=[[Oblivion:Trolls of Forsaken Mine|Trolls of Forsaken Mine]]
|Next=[[Oblivion:The Noble's Daughter|The Noble's Daughter]], [[Oblivion:Mystery at Harlun's Watch|Mystery at Harlun's Watch]], ''or'' [[Oblivion:Information Gathering|Information Gathering]]
|Up=[[Oblivion:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]]}}

Lore:Elder Scrolls

2017-10-30T21:43:59Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1697334 by 96.87.184.237 (talk) Game specific information is generally not added to lore articles

<noinclude>{{Lore Artifacts Trail}} __NOTOC__
[[Image:Elder Scroll.jpg|right|thumb|125px|Contents of an Elder Scroll, as seen in [[Oblivion:Oblivion|TES IV: Oblivion]]]]
:"''Go ye now in peace. Let thy fate be written in the Elder Scrolls...''" — A message to the {{Lore Link|Eternal Champion}}, as seen in [[Arena:Arena|Arena]]</noinclude>

The [[Lore:Elder Scrolls|Elder Scrolls]] ('''Kelle''' in the [[Lore:Dragon Language|Dragon Language]]{{ref|name=Paarthurnax|{{Lore Link|Paarthurnax}}'s dialogue in Skyrim.}}), also called the '''Aedric Prophecies''' (though the accuracy of that term is often disputed), are scrolls of unknown origin and number which simultaneously archive both past and future events.{{ref|name=LHOT|{{Cite book|Lost Histories of Tamriel}}}} The number of the Scrolls is unknown not because of their immense quantity, but because the number itself is unknowable, as the Scrolls "do not exist in countable form".{{ref|name=AAOTS|{{Cite book|An Accounting of the Scrolls}}}} They are fragments of creation from outside time itself, and their use in divining prophecies is but a small part of their power. They simultaneously do not exist, yet always have existed.{{ref|name=Paarthurnax}}<noinclude>

From a philosophical viewpoint, the origin and purpose of the Elder Scrolls is rather obscure and indescribably abstract. As one author puts it, ''"Imagine living beneath the waves with a strong-sighted blessing of most excellent fabric. Holding the fabric over your gills, you would begin to breathe-drink its warp and weft. Though the plantmatter fibers imbue your soul, the wretched plankton would pollute the cloth until it stank to heavens of prophecy. This is one manner in which the Scrolls first came to pass, but are we the sea, or the breather, or the fabric? Or are we the breath itself? Can we flow through the Scrolls as knowledge flows through, being the water, or are we the stuck morass of sea-filth that gathers on the edge?"''{{ref|{{Cite book|Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls}}}}

Any person gifted with prescient powers is able to interpret the contents of the Elder Scrolls with practice.{{ref|{{Cite book|Effects of the Elder Scrolls}}}} The information revealed about the future is never absolute.{{ref|{{Cite book|Divining the Elder Scolls}}}} Once an event foretold within the Scrolls is carried out in the world it becomes fixed within them. Such insight into the inner fabric of reality comes at a price, however, as each new foretelling and interpretation strikes the reader with blindness for a greater period of time, while simultaneously granting them a broader view of the Scroll's contents. Ultimately, the reader, having engaged in frequent acts of prophecy, is left bereft of their vision, forever after removed of their right to read the Scrolls. By time-honored tradition, the {{Lore Link|Empire}} allowed only the priests of the [[Lore:Ancestor Moth Cult|Cult of the Ancestor Moth]] to read from the Scrolls, while younger members cared for the elders as they gradually and irreparably lose their sight.{{ref|{{Cite book|Pension of the Ancestor Moth}}}} The {{Lore Link|Ritual of the Ancestor Moth}} is once such method of reading an Elder Scroll.{{ref|name=SREvicus}}

Long ago, however, the {{Lore Link|Dwemer}} devised a means to extract knowledge from the Scrolls without requiring someone to sacrifice their sight. Complex machinery interfaces with the Scroll and draws out information, inscribing it onto a metal Lexicon which can then be read by those with the requisite knowledge.{{Ref|[[Lore:Septimus Signus|Septimus Signus]]' dialogue in [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}} It is unknown how the quality or quantity of the information gained this way compares to that when read directly from a Scroll.

Numerous Elder Scrolls were stored at the {{Lore Link|White-Gold Tower}} within a chamber known variously as the Imperial Library, the Hall of Records, and the Elder Library.{{ref|name=AAOTS}}{{ref|name=TWQ1|{{Cite book|The Wolf Queen, v1}}}}{{ref|name=Oblivion|Events of [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion]]}} During the {{Lore Link|Three Banners War}} in the {{Lore Link|Second Era}}, the Imperial City fell to hordes of {{Lore Link|Daedra}}. To protect the scrolls, the Cult of the Ancestor Moth hid several of them around the grounds of the {{Lore Link|Temple of the Ancestor Moths}} in northeastern Cyrodiil. Eventually, troops from each alliance found the scrolls and stole them from the moth priests.{{ref|name=ONSA|[[Online:Sandana Axius|Sandana Axius]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} Across Cyrodiil, each alliance built vast holy temples to house the scrolls they had stolen. The temples were built close enough to the battlefields to bestow the scrolls' blessing onto the troops.{{ref|name=ONPA|[[Online:Protector Arfire|Protector Arfire]]'s dialogue in [[Online:Online|ESO]]}} After the war ended, many scrolls were re-housed within the Imperial Library.

After rumors circulated that a Scroll had been stolen, an Imperial Librarian attempted to take a complete inventory of the Scrolls, but the effort proved fruitless as their numbers and placement seemed to fluctuate for no discernible reason.{{ref|name=AAOTS}} Around {{Year|4E 175}}, the Elder Scrolls mysteriously vanished from the Library, and were scattered across Tamriel.{{ref|name=SREvicus|[[Skyrim:Dexion Evicus|Dexion Evicus]]' dialogue in [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]]}}

The year {{Year|4E 201}} saw the discovery of three Elder Scrolls. Two Elder Scrolls were discovered in [[Lore:Skyrim|Skyrim]] itself, one hidden in the Dwemer city [[Lore:Blackreach|Blackreach]] and the other in the ancient ruin of [[Skyrim:Dimhollow Crypt|Dimhollow Crypt]]. The third was located in the [[Lore:Soul Cairn|Soul Cairn]].{{ref|name=Skyrim|Events of [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}{{ref|name=Dawnguard|Events of [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]]}}

==Known Elder Scrolls==
* ''Elder Scroll (Blood)''
* ''Elder Scroll (Dragon)''
* ''Elder Scroll (Nocturnal's Curse)''
* ''Elder Scroll (Planemeld Obverse)''
* ''Elder Scroll (Sun)''
* ''Elder Scroll of Alma Ruma''
* ''Elder Scroll of Altadoon''
* ''Elder Scroll of Chim''
* ''Elder Scroll of Ghartok''
* ''Elder Scroll of Mnem''
* ''Elder Scroll of Ni-Mohk''
* ''[[Lore:Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls|Elder Scroll of Rhunen]]''

==Notes==
* {{Lore Link|Arngeir}} of the {{Lore Link|Greybeards}} viewed the Elder Scrolls as "blasphemies".{{ref|name=Arngeir|[[Skyrim:Arngeir|Arngeir]]'s dialogue in [[Skyrim:Skyrim|Skyrim]]}}
*Runes written on the Elder Scrolls and their covers seem to belong to the same language as those carved on the Eye of Magnus. Both kinds of artifacts being probably of Aedric origin (Paarthurnax describing the Scrolls as "fragments of Creation"), they are likely Aedric runes. The same kind of runes are found on the amulets of the Elder Council, which seem to be made of a metal similar to that of the Elder Scrolls' covers and crimped with a similar purple gem.

==Gallery==
<gallery>
File:OB-quest-The Ultimate Heist.jpg|The Elder Scrolls inside the Imperial Palace, as seen in Oblivion
File:OB-quest-The Ultimate Heist 03.jpg|An Elder Scroll (Oblivion)
File:SR-quest-Elder Knowledge.jpg|An Elder Scroll (Skyrim)
File:SR-item-Elder Scroll.jpg|Contents of an Elder Scroll (Skyrim)
File:ON-item-Elder Scroll.jpg|An Elder Scroll in use during the Alliance War (ESO)
</gallery>

==See Also==
*[[Lore:Moth Sister Terran Arminus Answers Your Questions|Moth Sister Terran Arminus Answers Your Questions]]
*For game-specific information, see the [[Oblivion:Elder Scroll|Oblivion]], [[Skyrim:Elder Scroll|Skyrim]] and [[Online:Elder Scrolls|ESO]] articles.

===Books===
* {{Book Link|An Accounting of the Scrolls}}
* {{Book Link|Divining the Elder Scolls}}
* {{Book Link|Effects of the Elder Scrolls}}
* {{Book Link|Elder Scroll}}
* {{Book Link|Lost Histories of Tamriel}}
* {{Book Link|Pension of the Ancestor Moth}}
* {{Book Link|Ruminations on the Elder Scrolls}}

==References==
<references/></noinclude>

User talk:Susniand

2017-10-30T21:37:14Z

Kitkat1749: /* Hello! */ new section

== Hello! ==

<div class="plainlinks">Hi, Susniand! Welcome to UESPWiki! It's always great to have new members. If you'd like to help improve any of our pages, you might like to take a look at some of the following links:

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Feel free to practice editing to your heart's content in the [[UESPWiki:Sandbox|sandbox]]. If you wanna to discuss the games or lore, consider checking out our [http://blog.uesp.net/index.php blog], our [[UESPWiki:Discord|Discord]], or the [[UESPWiki:Forums|forums]]. If you need any help, feel free to contact one of our [[UESPWiki:Mentor Program|mentors]]. Thanks once again for joining the UESPWiki, have fun! [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 21:37, 30 October 2017 (UTC)</div>

Online:Innate Axiom

2017-10-30T21:28:11Z

Kitkat1749:

{{Trail|Sets}}
{{Pre-Release}}

'''Innate Axiom''' is a [[ON:Craftable Sets|craftable set]] that can be crafted at the {{huh}}
===Bonuses===
<onlyinclude>
'''2 items''': Adds {{ESO Magicka Link|1096 Maximum}} 
'''3 items''': Adds {{ESO Stamina Link|1096 Maximum}} 
'''4 items''': Adds {{ESO Spell Critical Link|833}} 
'''4 items''': Adds {{ESO Weapon Critical Link|833}} 
'''5 items''': Adds {{ESO Spell Damage Link|400}} 
'''5 items''': Adds {{ESO Weapon Damage Link|400}}
</onlyinclude>

===Crafting Site===
*{{Huh}}
{{Online Sets}}
{{ESO Sets With|Maximum Stamina|Maximum Magicka|Spell Critical|Weapon Critical|Weapon Damage|Spell Damage|Crafting Site(s)}}
[[Category:Online-Sets]]

Online:Sipping Imga Tonic

2017-10-30T15:38:13Z

Kitkat1749: ... Spelling?

{{Online Recipe Summary
|icon=Tea
|type=Tonic
|level=cp50
|quality=1
|improvement=5
|id=33698
|ing3=Ginkgo
|ing4=Lemon
}}
{{NewLine}}
==Notes==
{{Online Recipe Summary
|icon=Spirits Blue
|type=Tonic
|level=cp50
|id=57653
|nosave=y
|savecommon=y
}}
*You may have to make this recipe for [[ON:Provisioner Writ|Provisioner Writ]]s at [[ON:Recipe Improvement|Recipe Improvement]] level 6. As such, you may purchase the recipe from [[ON:Brewers|Brewers]].
*A weaker version of this recipe can be found for sale by [[ON:Brewers|Brewers]] and [[ON:Innkeepers|Innkeepers]], or also on tables in various locations, such as Guroanii Orethi in The Flaming Nix in Mournhold.
{{stub|Recipe}}

Oblivion talk:Enchanting

2017-10-30T15:30:52Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1697602 by 159.155.245.9 (talk) Don't edit other users posts. If this is your post, please log in to change it.

{{Archive Table
|Archive 1||Mar 2006 - Dec 2007
|Archive 2||Jan 2008 - Dec 2009
}}

== Enableing Enchantment Effects in CS ==
Is it posible to change which effects you are able to use at the enchanting altar through the CS? I am interested in enabling resist magic in particular if anyone knows how to.
[[User:Ihasaquestion|Ihasaquestion]] 21:57, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I Figured this out for anyone else who was wondering under the gameplay button there is a spell effects button which opens a menu of all spell efects they each have checkboxes for spellmaking and enchanting.[[User:Ihasaquestion|Ihasaquestion]] 22:15, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

== Enchanting the Honorblade of Chorrol ==
Am I missing something? I have tried to enchant (at an alter and with a Sigil Stone) the blade after stealing it back from the countess. It doesn't show up in the "add item" menu. (PS3 GOTY edition) Aside from Staves are there other items which cannot be enchanted? I placed this on the "Sins of the Father" discussion page as well.[[Special:Contributions/72.147.102.244|72.147.102.244]] 16:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

you can't enchant quest items

Either that or like what you said you "Stole it back from the countess". Remember any stolen items will not appear on enchanting. Much like in trading when stolen goods do not appear on the list of thing you wish to sell.
[[User:The Divine Avenger|The Grand Champ]] 15:04, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

: Since when? Stolen items always show up when I'm enchanting.[[Special:Contributions/86.4.179.218|86.4.179.218]] 15:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

:if you steal it back it will still be a quest item--[[User:GUM!!!|GUM!!!]] 15:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

== Infinite Energy ==

i don't know the correct term for it but when you are enchanting it is the thing that tells you how much power you have left to use on effects (with grand soul gems filled all the way it's max is 85) i find this ,probably like most of you do, a very stupid addition to the game. I own a pc version of oblivion is there any way using glitches or console commands to make this number go up?{{Unsigned|75.174.111.47|2 February 2010}}

== Npc charge? ==

Will an npc charge their weapon if they have eveything needed to do so?

:Well not really, you see NPC's might act like us but they can't do some of the stuff we can do. But if they have a secondary weapon they will equip it when there enchanted weapon is discharged.
[[User:The Divine Avenger|The GrandChamp]] 15:12, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

== Invisible Enchantments ==

For some reason i cant enchant armor or robes with chameleon, it doesn't give me the option to enchant it with chameleon and my Ilusion skill is 53. Do I need to level up a certain skill or can you just not enchant armor or clothes with invisibility??? Someone please help me!(I have an unpatched goty edition on the Xbox 360).

Well what is the level of illusion needed to cast that Chameleon Spell? If you are not high enough to cast it, then it won't appear on the enchanting and spellmaking altar because you have not learned it yet. And the game is not preventing you from putting on a Chameleon enchant.
[[User:The Divine Avenger|The Grand Champ]] 15:08, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

: Do you know a spell with the chameleon effect? [[Special:Contributions/86.4.179.218|86.4.179.218]] 15:20, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

== weapons don't appear at altar ==

Only my clothing and armor appear in the inventory at the enchanting altar. I have plenty of usable spells--what gives? Thanks.[[Special:Contributions/24.163.112.151|24.163.112.151]] 22:22, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
:Perhaps a silly question, but you do have a weapon in your inventory, don't you? Otherwise, I have no idea. [[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|Talk]] [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]] [[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|Contributions]] 10:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

are they already enchanted?[[Special:Contributions/98.221.180.183|98.221.180.183]] 00:18, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

== Enchantments for followers ==

I'd love some advice please. I'm using the Jemane twins as permanent followers and I'm thinking about swapping out their regular clothing with some zero-weight enchanted clothing. I can give them up to four pieces of clothing (hood, wrist irons, shirt, pants) but I'm undecided as to what sort of enchantments I should give them. I was thinking "resist magic" which I suppose would be handy since I mostly run them through conjurer/necromancer lairs, but then again, they can't be killed anyway (still essential at this point). So I don't know, lol. I'm almost considering giving them "light" enchantments or something so they can be human lanterns in caves with me. I'm just not sure. What sort of enchantments can be recommended for unkillable followers?

: Light enchantment isn't really worth it. It's much better just using a petty soul gem to enchant a ring with night-eye (or light, if you don't mind not being sneaky). I'd say anything that improves their combat skill, like fortify skill, or fortify health to stop them falling unconscious as much (if they are). Don't forget to sign your post using four of these "~". [[Special:Contributions/86.4.179.218|86.4.179.218]] 15:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

== Can I enchant the Amber Armor from Shivering Isles? ==

Could someone direct me to the page that talks about what you can and can't enchant, specifically?

I'm sure I remember reading that when you enchant an already enchanted item, it's current enchantments will be removed. I can't find where I found that information (Currently, it's not on this page). I was specifically trying to find out if I could enchant/re-enchant Amber Armor from the Shivering Isles expansion. I'd hate to find out that it has some sort of exception since it's an expansion/different world/etc.
Thanks, [[Special:Contributions/98.192.98.237|98.192.98.237]] 05:47, 3 July 2010 (UTC)Anon
:Enchanted armor and weapons cannot be re-enchanted, only unenchanted armor can. You can enchant Amber Armor if you made the basic kind, but you cannot re-enchant one made with a matrix. The base armor is the same with matrix-made armor and basic armor. So long as an armor or weapon isn't enchanted and isn't a quest item, it can be enchanted whether it came from an expansion or not--[[User:Tenraah|Tenraah]] 02:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

==Multiple Enchantments==
I'm having trouble and seek wisdom from a veteran. The web page on enchants says you can put more then one enchantment on a single item, but when I go to enchant an item it doesn't give me the option or the ability to add a second enchantment to the list during the creation process. If someone can give me the insight on how to do this that would be great. [[Special:Contributions/174.54.5.19|174.54.5.19]] 02:06, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
:If you're trying to enchant clothing, you can only use one effect, whereas weapons can have multiple enchantments. Also, the enchantments you can make are determine by the spells/abilities you have. If you only have one spell, you can only make an enchantment with that ''one'' effect. -- [[User:Jplatinum16|Jplatinum16]] 04:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

==Agility or Acrobatics?==
Which would get me higher jumps, fortifying agility by 10 pts on an item, or fortifying Acrobatics by 10 pts on an item? Would I run faster with the 10 pts on Athletics or on Speed? {{unsigned|98.28.159.122|25 July 2010}}
: Please let us know after you do your tests! Thanks! [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 22:38, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Just tested one. Enchanting with Acrobatics allows for higher jumps; enchanting with agility does nothing to impact how high you can jump. Too lazy to test speed/athletics. Somebody go do that.

Speed affects running speed as much as athletics so either one will work.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the acrobatics be tested by raising speed? (Speed=Acrobatics, Athletics, L. Armour, Agility=Marksman, Security, Sneak) [[Special:Contributions/92.17.106.189|92.17.106.189]] 18:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know, I just was thinking more realistically that agility would effect height of jumps in my mind. Regardless, increasing speed did not make jumps higher.

:Speed governs both Acrobatics and Athletics and increases your movement speed. Athletics skill also increases your movement speed however Acrobatics skill is the only thing that affects jump height (speed does not). Athletics and Speed may increase the jump DISTANCE due to the fact that the faster you are moving the more distance you can cover while jumping.[[User:Reizl|Reizl]] 22:48, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

== Recharging via Soul Gems ==

The addition I made was to clarify for others that recharging can be done yourself without the need for an Altar of Enchanting. I had been previously unaware of this until reading this page, which seemed to suggest it was so instead of clearly stating it. Are we needing to conserve words here or are we looking to offer information? Meh. [[Special:Contributions/75.62.198.56|75.62.198.56]] 03:29, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

:I don't see what needed to be clarified in the first place; since I don't see anything that suggests that an Altar of ''Enchanting'' is needed for ''recharging''. If you think the current wording is unclear, feel free to adjust it again. The wording used before I edited it seemed redundant, at least the way I read it. --'''[[User:GuildKnight|GK]]'''[[User_talk:GuildKnight|talk2me]] 19:26, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

== Do Light and Detect Life enchantments stack? ==

For instance, if I had a hood enchanted with Light 40 ft and a Ring with Light 40 ft, would it give me Light for 80 ft? The same goes for Detect Life. Forgive me if it answered this anywhere else, I'm too lazy to read everything.
:Yes, it would.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette]][[User:Corevette789|789]] 00:46, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
::A double-check never hurts so I did some testing.
::Using the console, I gave myself some [[Oblivion:Deer Skin Gauntlets|Deer Skin Gauntlets]] and a [[Oblivion:Deer Skin Helmet|Deer Skin Helmet]] for detect life, plus a [[Oblivion:Base Ring of Light|Base Ring of Light]] and some [[Oblivion:Sunburst Gauntlets|Sunburst Gauntlets]] for Light.
::I happened to be in Crucible at the time so I headed for the Seducer standing at the top of Suicide Stair. I moved to the top of the staircase to the palace and put on the Deer Skin Gauntlets. The Seducer didn't show up. I then put on the Deer Skin Helmet. She gained the detect life effect.
::Next, I switched to 3rd-party POV and equipped the ring. A circle of light appeared around my character. I then equipped the gauntlets and the circle (roughly) doubled in size.
::Proof positive. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 00:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Really? I did my own testing with light and moved so that a dark wall was barely out of distance of my light and then equipped about 5 more items with 40 ft of light and the wall never lit up. I'm playing on the Xbox 360 though, so maybe it's different?
:Well, It works for me on the 360, so It could be a camera quirk. [[Special:Contributions/184.77.194.254|184.77.194.254]] 01:08, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

:: Do it again, and this time look in 3rd party view, or look at items rather than walls. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:13, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I did it again in first person and third person and looked at items, trees, and people. The light didn't seem to get bigger as I wore more items.

Just did it with Detect Life and it worked. Maybe I just have weird TV display settings or something that makes my light messed up. I don't know.

not working for me on 360 either..i think it's because the graphics are turned down so can't see it going further. works with detect life though woich is point less seeing how anymore then 80 or so is wasted as actor's aren't drawn--[[User:Silverfox6000|Silverfox6000]] 00:26, 13 November 2010 (UTC)

== Fortification ==

Is it me, or is Fortify Health a big waste compared with Fortify Endurance? Boosting Endurance will give you twice as much health, for a lower price. [[Special:Contributions/75.47.107.220|75.47.107.220]] 09:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

:Yes, you're right. There are a few instances like that in the game, such as the elemental Shield effects vs. the standard Shield effect. – [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]↝[[User_talk:RobinHood70|'''talk''']] 16:55, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

== Fortify attribute ==

at the altar of enchanting in the mages guild fortify attirbute doesnt appear as on option, why is this? {{unsigned|109.78.126.101|20:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)}}

: Do you have a Fortify Attribute spell? --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 20:42, 20 January 2011 (UTC)

::There isn't a Fortify Attribute spell in-game without using the console so you can't use it's effect for enchanting.[[Special:Contributions/75.54.95.221|75.54.95.221]] 00:58, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

== Spell Absorption and Reflect Spell? ==

At the moment I have 45% Spell Absorption on my char. If I put 55% Reflect Spell on my equipment, will I be immune to magic? Or do the two overlap instead of stacking? [[Special:Contributions/98.226.186.30|98.226.186.30]] 00:01, 14 February 2011 (UTC)
: NM, I found the answer on a different page. For others wondering the same thing I was, they do not stack, instead a spell first has to go through your reflect, then your absorb, then your resist. Each one is done individually and not all at once, so having a combination of these 3 add up to 100 will not make you immune to magic, only having one of them at 100 will make you fully immune to magic. [[Special:Contributions/98.226.186.30|98.226.186.30]] 19:47, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

== Enchanting Arrows ==

I know you can poison a 'shot' with an arrow, but is there any way to enchant an arrow? {{Unsigned|71.12.240.154|22:51, 19 February 2011 (UTC)}}

: No. There's no way to enchant arrows, unfortunately. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 22:59, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

== No-limit enchanting ==

I seek help!
Is there a mod which makes possible to use any enchantment on weapons, clothing and armor, and also with no limit?
(i.e. a Sack Cloth Shirt with Water Walking and Resist Normal Weapons)
[[Special:Contributions/95.252.211.40|95.252.211.40]] 19:13, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

== A Moot point ==

This is found in the notes section of the article. "NPCs will not wear the item if it is stolen. However this is a moot point given that, as mentioned above, when a stolen item is first enchanted it loses its stolen status."
So why is that even there if it is a moot point? Is anyone in objection to it being removed? --[[User:Zefiewings|Zefiewings]] 19:52, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

: You're right. I deleted it. [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 08:27, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

== Does Enchanting with a certain skill raise that skill? ==

Say i enchant a sword with soul trap. if i use that sword, will my mysticism skill raise? If so, is there any way to cancel the effect?

:No. Using a sword raises your blade skill. --[[User:Brf|Brf]] 22:25, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

== Bad example ==

"A silence enchantment neutralizes spellcasting mages (such as Kalthar) -- any size soul gem results in the same permanent silence effect."
Kalthar is a misleading example here. You have no normal access to enchanting altars when he's alive, only after you killed him and sigil stones do not allow you to make cursed enchantments. {{uns|174.142.32.173|01:49, 2 May 2011}}

: If you have the Frostcrag Spire plug-in then you can use the enchanting altar there without needing access to the Arcane University. --[[User:S'drassa|S'drassa]] •[[User_Talk:S'drassa|You have words?]] 01:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

:: Still, not every player has the plug-in. If a better example can be found, Kalthar should definitely be replaced. [[User:Legoless|Legoless]] 02:13, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

::: Better to remove it altogether then. I'm sure that people can figure out what a spellcaster is on their own. --[[User:S'drassa|S'drassa]] •[[User_Talk:S'drassa|You have words?]] 02:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

:::: Kalthar uses an Iron dagger in addition to spells, putting him in the same broad category as any generic Necromancer or Conjurer, meaning we ''could'' just replace his link with one of these respawning enemies. The link to Kalthar itself is bad to begin with, it goes to the [[Oblivion:Leyawiin Recommendation|Leyawiin Recommendation page]] instead of the [[Oblivion:Kalthar|Kalthar's actual page]]. There should be some example for new players, how about [[Oblivion:Raelynn the Gravefinder|Gravefinder]]? If you can find a more fitting NPC, you can change it. [[User:Neural Tempest|- Neural Tempest]] 05:18, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

== Magical items are deleted ==

Creating Magical İtems are deleting when I exit the game . Any solution ?

== Fortified Skill Weapons ==

So i want to fortify my Daedric Longsword with the Blade skill but its not working. It says "Fortify Blade 3 pts for 1 sec on Strike"... I dont want to give my enemies a skill boost i want to give me a skill boost! Please Help.{{uns|81.226.63.235|10:57, 7 September 2011 (UTC)}}

:you cant have fortify on yourself on strike, try using a drain enchantment (From Fear to Eternity- [[User:Eddie the head|Eddie The Head]] 10:57, 7 September 2011 (UTC))
::Like Eddie the head said, enchantments on a weapon affect the unfortunate victim hit by your weapon, not yourself. You must enchant apparel in order for it to have an effect on you. Try enchanting some clothes with a fortify blade effect. [[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|Talk]] [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]] [[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|Contributions]] 21:41, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

== Is it Possible to Make This Without Mods? ==

A recipe for a munchkin dagger I got from TVTropes. I want to know if it's possible to make it on the 360.

"The Healthdrainer: drain health 100 for 2-3 seconds (doesn't really matter). Weakness to magic 100 for 6 seconds. Soul Trap.

The Healthdrainer (dagger) hits about twice a second (daggers are the fastest melee weapon). So the first hit, they lose 100 health. The next (due to weakness to magic) 200, the next: 400, then 800, then 1600, then 3200 (then, if you want 6400, then if you are sadistic 12800). Then the soul can be used, with Azura's star, to recharge the weapon. And now you can kill Mehrunes Dagon (only 10000 health). That's not supposed to be possible."

Can somebody please test it? [[Special:Contributions/98.70.69.213|98.70.69.213]] 03:25, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

:you cant kill mehrunes dagon without the console, and a dagger does not have the capaticity for that sort of enchantement (I plead Lazyness[[User:Eddie the head|Eddie The Head]] 06:35, 7 October 2011 (UTC))

::I dunno, man, I just made a silver dagger with Drain Health 100 pts for 2 secs and Weakness to Magic 100% for 2 secs just now, at the Chironasium (Couldn't afford Weakness for 6 or Soul Trap for 1, but it might only be because my Willpower's damaged). It's a near thing, but 'Tropes says Dagon's only immortal because of numbers (he regenerates really, really quickly or something), and supposedly a proper Healthdrainer can get past it. When and if my mage character ever gets to the climax of the story, I'll try it on him then. [[Special:Contributions/98.70.69.213|98.70.69.213]] 00:37, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
::Daedric Dagger, Weakness 100% for 6 sec, Drain Health 50 pts for 2 sec, Uses: 20 (Black Soul Gem). I'll post again when I've tried it (you never know). [[Special:Contributions/98.70.64.215|98.70.64.215]] 17:13, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

== Minor edit ==

Since I'm just a lurker here I thought I'd ask a regular to make the change. The Enchanting Using Sigel Stones section says "Getting to them requires going through Oblivion Gates and - unless you are very good at stealth - a good deal of combat on the other side." I do gate runs at level 30, literally. My acrobatics and athletics are so high that I spam run and jump from the start of the realm to the Sigal Stone and nothing can keep up with me. I even stop and loot any Pods and Punisheds I find along the way. It's a decent tactic, I thought it would be worth mentioning. [[Special:Contributions/66.237.45.82|66.237.45.82]] 09:25, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
:You can add that yourself if you want to, just add it and if there are any mistakes I'll look over them.[[User:RIM|RIM]] 10:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
::Since the anon never made the change, I've just done it. – [[User:RobinHood70|'''Robin Hood''']]↝[[User_talk:RobinHood70|'''talk''']] 05:22, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

== Cursed enchantments ==

I'm a bit confused by the example for the cursed enchantments using Silence to mute enemy spellcasters.
Since the zero-weight items are another bullet point, it is somehow possible to use Silence on a non-zero weight item? Then how do I give it to the spellcaster who is probably already casting at me?

Also with the zero-weight items: how do I give them to aggressive NPCs?{{Unsigned|149.220.35.148|07:36, 24 September 2012‎}}

:Its simple, Silence spells can be applied to weapons, allowing you to attack with a Silence casting weapon. As for giving items to aggressive NPC's, you'd need very good sneak and to find them when they are asleep or some such state.--[[User:Dro'Bakha|Dro'Bakha]] ([[User talk:Dro'Bakha|talk]]) 09:50, 24 September 2012 (GMT)

== Altar of Enchanting bug? ==

Guys please help me... At the altar of enchanting i dont get the weakness to fire/frost/shock and magic options :( How i fix that?

== Enchantment Number Limit? ==

So, I'm using an infinite enchantment glitch on my player character, and I'm curious; can too many enchantments cause issues in my game? Like horrifyingly long loading times? Or could using too many enchantments destroy my save game altogether? I have yet to find ANY information on this.

Summary: Can you be too powerful for the game to handle?{{uns2|23:48, 26 September 2014|65.185.145.37}}
:I've never come across this and I've got something similar for rings. You technically can't have any more effects on you than the base in-game effects. Increasing the number of enchanted equipments just magnifies the effects. I suppose some effects like Light or Detect Life can cause problems if extended too far.
:You probably can have too many ''script effects'' on you. Each of these are processed per-frame and don't stack even if they are the same enchantment. [[User:NFITC1|NFITC1]] ([[User talk:NFITC1|talk]]) 17:37, 3 November 2014 (GMT)

== Daedric/Silver Weapons? ==

Might have come across the answer to this before somewhere (No). Do daedric or silver weapons retain their "spirit edge" once imbued with enchantment?--[[User:Lmstearn|Lmstearn]] ([[User talk:Lmstearn|talk]]) 13:59, 11 October 2014 (GMT)
:Do you mean the ability to strike spectral enemies? If so then the question is moot as enchanted weapons of any quality can strike spectrals. [[User:NFITC1|NFITC1]] ([[User talk:NFITC1|talk]]) 17:32, 3 November 2014 (GMT)

== I'M INVINCIBLE! Except for arrows :( ==

I managed to, with a combination of vanilla and DLC equipment, get both Resist Magic 100% and Reflect Damage 100% so I can't be touched by magic or melee. However, in my arrogance of striding casually through a thieves' den I got snipped by a single archer and head-shotted. Is there an enchantment that can nullify missile attacks like that? [[User:NFITC1|NFITC1]] ([[User talk:NFITC1|talk]]) 17:41, 3 November 2014 (GMT)

:Nope, there's nothing you can do against arrows - except for the good old [[Oblivion:Chameleon#100% Chameleon|100% Chameleon]]. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 17:58, 3 November 2014 (GMT)

== fortify magicka is lost ==

fortify magicka option is lost in my altar, got any help {{uns|116.107.32.165|15:47, 4 February 2016 (GMT)}}
:What do you mean by "lost"? Was the enchantment available previously but suddenly disappeared? Is it not appearing at all? Without more details, it's going to be rather difficult to offer a solution. [[User:ThuumofReason|Zul do onikaan]][[User talk:ThuumofReason|Laan tinvaak]] 17:51, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

== Unreported bug ==

First, sorry if here is the wrong place about that; I dont have find anything about over here...

I think i catch a bug on ps3: if you have black gems with grand and greater souls, at altar enchanting only the greater souls appears in your inventory...

I can post more information, if needed; you was a known bugs, i apologies... {{uns|Elioricardo|00:12, 24 May 2016 (UTC)}}

: I've added it to the page for confirmation. —[[User:Legoless|Legoless]] ([[User talk:Legoless|talk]]) 00:20, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Skyrim:Fort Dawnguard

2017-10-30T15:17:23Z

Kitkat1749: Undo two edits; nonsense

{{Mod Header|Dawnguard}}{{Place Summary
|mod=[[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]]
|type=Military Fort
|zones=1
|image=SR-place-Fort Dawnguard.jpg
|imgdesc=Fort Dawnguard
|region=The Rift
|occupants=[[Skyrim:Dawnguard (faction)|Dawnguard]]
|description=A large [[Skyrim:Military Forts|fort]] southeast of [[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]] which serves as the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard (faction)|Dawnguard]]'s base of operations.
|locationcode=DLC1DawnguardHQ01
|marker_id=Fort
|location= East of [[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]], near [[Skyrim:Stendarr's Beacon|Stendarr's Beacon]]
|smelter=1
|workbench=1
|grindstone=1
|tanning=1
|forge=1{{intnote|Crafting|†}}
|enchanting=1{{intnote|Crafting|†}}
|alchemy=1{{intnote|Crafting|†}}
|cooking=1
|clearable=No
|mapname=Fort Dawnguard (DG)
}}<div style="clear:right; float:right; width:23.5%; padding:0 .75%">{{Note|Crafting|†|The alchemy lab, arcane enchanter, and forge are not initially present in the fort, but added during restorations to the fort just before the Prophet quest ends.}}</div> [[Category:Skyrim-Dawnguard]] [[Category:Skyrim-Dawnguard-Places]]
The fort is home to the ancient order of [[Skyrim:Vampire|vampire]] hunters who guard the realm from the vampiric Volkihar clan. It is hidden in the east of [[Skyrim:The Rift|The Rift]], and can be used as a player home. It can only be reached via [[Skyrim:Dayspring Canyon|Dayspring Canyon]].

The fort was built sometime in the [[Lore:Second Era|Second Era]] by the Jarl of [[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]] to contain his son, who had contracted vampirism. He hired a large mercenary band called the Dawnguard to guard his son. The threat of vampires was eventually disregarded by the people of Skyrim, and the fort was abandoned. [[Skyrim:Isran|Isran]] is using the fort as a base of operations for his attempt to rebuild the Dawnguard and combat the rising threat of the vampires.
{{NewLeft}}
== [[Skyrim:Fort Dawnguard People|Fort Dawnguard Residents]] ==
{{Skyrim:Fort Dawnguard People}}

== Related Quests ==
====Dawnguard Questline====
*{{Quest Link|Dawnguard (quest)}}
*{{Quest Link|Awakening}}
*{{Quest Link|Bloodline}}
*{{Quest Link|Prophet (Dawnguard)}}
*{{Quest Link|Chasing Echoes}}
*{{Quest Link|Unseen Visions}}

====Side Quests====
*{{Quest Link|Ancient Technology}}
*{{Quest Link|Bolstering the Ranks}}
*{{Quest Link|Cleansing Light}}
*{{Quest Link|Destroying the Dawnguard}}
*{{Quest Link|Hide and Seek (quest)}}
*{{Quest Link|A New Order}}
*{{Quest Link|Rescue}}
==Fort Dawnguard==
{|class=hiddentable style="float:right; margin:0;"
|valign=top|
{{Perk Tree Setup|width=275|mark_color=White|text_color=black|font_size=100|mark_width=16}}{{Perk Tree
|label=Map of Fort Dawnguard interior
|image=SR-map-Fort Dawnguard.jpg
|float=right
|perks=
{{Image Mark|535|770|A|mark_alt=Dayspring Canyon|position=on|mark_link=Skyrim:Dayspring Canyon}}
{{Image Mark|780|275|B|mark_alt=Dead Drop Falls|position=on|mark_link=Skyrim:Dead Drop Falls}}

{{Image Mark|535|620|1|mark_alt=Main Hall|position=on}}
{{Image Mark|225|500|2|mark_alt=Gunmar's Forge|position=on}}
{{Image Mark|100|450|3|mark_alt=Armored Troll enclosure|position=on}}
{{Image Mark|950|400|4|mark_alt=Husky enclosure|position=on}}
{{Image Mark|595|440|5|mark_alt=Torture Room|position=on}}
}}
|width=8px|
|valign=top|
===Doors===
A: [[Skyrim:Dayspring Canyon|Dayspring Canyon]] 
B: [[Skyrim:Dead Drop Falls|Dead Drop Falls]] 

===Rooms===
# Main Hall
# Gunmar's Forge
# Armored Troll enclosure
# Husky enclosure
# Torture Room
|}
{{NewLine}}

==Notes==
* Five members of the Dawnguard are available as [[Skyrim:Followers|followers]] after the quest Prophet is completed. They are noted with the {{Service Icon|Follower}} icon in the NPC table above.
* There are two war dogs in the dog pen in the northeast section of the fort, available as canine followers.
* You can buy armored [[Skyrim:Troll|trolls]] for 500 gold from [[Skyrim:Gunmar|Gunmar]].
* There is a grindstone and tanning rack on the roof, reachable by climbing the west stairway inside and exiting at the top. These are technically in Dayspring Canyon, not part of Fort Dawnguard, though they can only be accessed via the fort.
* You can access [[Skyrim:Dead_Drop_Falls|Dead Drop Falls]] through the southwest section of Fort Dawnguard. The entrance is between three combat mannequins and the armored husky paddock.

==Bugs==
{{Bug|When placing a weapon on the weapon rack in the master bedroom you won't be able to retrieve it.|dlc=DG|USKP|2.0.4}}
{{Bug|Dawnguard gear intended to be equipped on the nearby mannequin is mistakenly set to respawn, which causes the mannequin to duplicate the gear every time the cell resets.|UDGP|2.0.3}}
{{Bug|The interior of Fort Dawnguard is not oriented correctly, meaning that the compass points south when entering and exiting.|dlc=DG|UDGP|1.0}}

Skyrim:Cutting Lumber

2017-10-30T09:30:41Z

Kitkat1749: Revert unexplained deletion

{{Trail|Activities}} [[File:SR-activity-Wood_Mill.jpg|thumb|right|The wood mill at Riverwood]]
'''Cutting Lumber''' is an action that can be performed by NPCs and by you at wood mills. It should not be confused with [[Skyrim:Chop_Wood|chopping firewood]].

In order to activate this animation sequence, you must activate an available "Lumber Pile", which will start the activation sequence of pulling a log down to the center of the mill to be cut. You must then activate a lever on the opposite side of the log to start the cutting process. The log will move forward, passing through a large cutter blade to be split down the middle before dropping down into a pile of cut lumber at the end of the mill. A [[Skyrim:Followers|follower]] can also be ordered to activate it, but will only do so once each time they are asked. Cutting lumber is only an animation in the original version of the game; the process yields no results.

==Sawn Logs==
[[File:SR-activity-Log Pile.jpg|thumb|right|The log pile located just outside of Windstad Manor]]
'''Sawn Logs'''{{HF}} are housebuilding materials added by [[Skyrim:Hearthfire|Hearthfire]] which are needed for [[Skyrim:Construction|building]] and [[:Category:Skyrim-Hearthfire-Furnishing Options|furnishing]] a self-built home. They are hidden, weightless items ([[Skyrim:Form ID|ID]]: {{ID|xx00300e}}) which do not show up in your inventory or affect your carry weight. They appear as a "Log Pile" on your property, with the number increasing as more are purchased and decreasing as they are used for building or furnishing a home. If the amount of Sawn Logs in your Log Pile drops to zero, the Log Pile disappears. Buying or sawing more Logs will make the Log Pile show up again.

You can purchase lumber from certain mill owners at 200 gold for 20 sawn logs. You can also ask your personal [[Skyrim:Personal Steward|steward]] to purchase them for the same price, without having to leave your property. Certain lumber merchants will give you permission to cut the lumber for free if their [[Skyrim:Disposition|disposition]] has been raised high enough (value=1: friend). You will cut 10 at one time when cutting it on your own (but see [[#Bugs|bugs]]). No matter how you choose to obtain more lumber, it will be delivered to the "Log Pile" on your property at no charge. If you own more than one property, the Log Pile is shared between them - all your lumber can be accessed from any of the three properties.

The following table lists lumber mill owners who will sell sawn logs via dialogue. The 'Quest' column indicates ''guaranteed'' quests for the lumber merchant in that row which will raise their disposition enough to allow you to cut your own logs for free. You must receive permission via dialogue before activating the mill will yield results. If an entry in the column is blank, there are no guaranteed quests which raise that specific lumber merchant's disposition. However, there are other ways to raise an NPC's disposition, such as certain [[Skyrim:Radiant#Quest_NPCs|radiant]] quests for which the target can be almost any NPC in the game (e.g., [[Skyrim:Rescue_Mission|Rescue Mission]]). While some of these quests can still raise a lumber merchant's disposition enough for them to allow you to cut your own lumber for free, they are not listed here because you are not guaranteed to receive a specific NPC as a target for that quest.

{| class="wikitable sortable"
! Name !! Location !! Quest
|-
|[[Skyrim:Aeri|Aeri]] || [[Skyrim:Anga's_Mill|Anga's Mill]] in [[Skyrim:The_Pale|The Pale]] || [[Skyrim:Chop_Wood|Chop Wood]] or [[Skyrim:Delivery|Delivery]]
|-
|[[Skyrim:Bolund|Bolund]] || The wood mill on the northeast side of [[Skyrim:Falkreath|Falkreath]] ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Gilfre|Gilfre]] || [[Skyrim:Mixwater_Mill|Mixwater Mill]] in [[Skyrim:Eastmarch|Eastmarch]] || Chop Wood
|-
|[[Skyrim:Grosta|Grosta]] || [[Skyrim:Heartwood_Mill|Heartwood Mill]] in [[Skyrim:The_Rift|The Rift]] || Chop Wood or [[Skyrim:Flight_or_Fight|Flight or Fight]]
|-
|[[Skyrim:Hert|Hert]] || [[Skyrim:Half-Moon_Mill|Half-Moon Mill]] in [[Skyrim:Falkreath_Hold|Falkreath Hold]] || Chop Wood
|-
|[[Skyrim:Hod|Hod]] || The wood mill on the southwest side of [[Skyrim:Riverwood|Riverwood]] || Chop Wood
|-
|[[Skyrim:Kharag_gro-Shurkul|Kharag gro-Shurkul]] || [[Skyrim:Solitude_Sawmill|Solitude Sawmill]] in [[Skyrim:Haafingar|Haafingar]] ||
|-
|[[Skyrim:Thonnir|Thonnir]] || The wood mill on the north side of [[Skyrim:Morthal|Morthal]] || [[Skyrim:Laid to Rest|Laid to Rest]]
|}

==Notes==
*The [[Skyrim:Dragon_Bridge_Lumber_Camp|Dragon Bridge Lumber Camp]] is another wood mill which can be used to activate the cutting lumber animation sequence, but you can't purchase lumber there.
* When [[Skyrim:Construction|building]] a home with the [[Skyrim:Hearthfire|Hearthfire]] add-on, your map marker may send you to [[Skyrim:Half-Moon_Mill|Half-Moon Mill]] to buy sawn logs. If [[Skyrim:Hert|Hert]] is dead, you may go to another wood mill to purchase lumber and clear the objective.
*When sawing your own logs, the owner of the mill has to be at or approaching the mill, otherwise you will not receive the logs after you saw them.
* After cutting the lumber and it drops into the lumber pile, you must wait about 10 seconds for the freshly cut log to disappear before it is added as 10 sawn logs.
* If you want to do something productive while the log is being cut, you can go chop some firewood. The amount of time it takes is approximately the same as the time needed for the lumber mill to reset.

==Bugs==
{{Bug|The option to saw your own lumber is available, but will not always yield results, even if the lumberjack's disposition is high enough to allow you to cut your own lumber for free.|confirmed=1|dlc=HF}}
**Asking the lumber merchant for permission each time you saw logs at their mill may fix this.
**Sawing logs may only yield results if the lumber merchant is at the mill while you do it. (A good location for this is [[Skyrim:Anga's Mill|Anga's Mill]], as she stays in the vicinity throughout the day.)
{{Bug|You may occasionally be able to view sawn logs in your inventory. When this happens, they use the model for [[Skyrim:Elven_Boots|elven boots]].|confirmed=1|dlc=HF}}
{{Bug|You may occasionally not be able to buy logs from the usual vendors.|dlc=HF}}
**This is due to the needed faction not being set on the vendor (BYOHLumberVendorFaction, [[Skyrim:Form ID|ID]]: {{ID|xx009ba5}}).
**Fix: Go into the console, select the vendor and use addfac xx009ba5 1

Skyrim:Sond (bandit)

2017-10-30T09:12:19Z

Kitkat1749: Correcting values

{{About|the bandit in Eldergleam Sanctuary|the child in random encounters|Skyrim:Sond (child)}}
{{NPC Summary
|essential=
|respawn=yes
|loc=
|race=Nord
|gender=Male
|class=[[Skyrim:Bandit (class)|Bandit]]
|faction={{Faction|WIGenericCrimeFaction}}; {{Faction|dunEldergleamFaction}}
|refid=00015CC3
|baseid=00015CC4
|image=SR-npc-Sond.jpg
|imgdesc=Sond relaxing by the river
|skills='''[[Skyrim:One-handed|One-handed]]''', '''[[Skyrim:Two-handed|Two-handed]]''', [[Skyrim:Block|Block]], [[Skyrim:Light Armor|Light Armor]]
|aggress=Unaggressive
|level=PC×0.5 (range=5-15)
|moral=No Crime
|health=35+(PC-2)×5.5
|magicka=25
|stamina=25+(PC-2)×2
|voicetype=MaleNord
}}
'''Sond''' is a [[Skyrim:Nord|Nord]] [[Skyrim:Bandit (class)|bandit]] who can be found in the [[Skyrim:Eldergleam Sanctuary|Eldergleam Sanctuary]]. During the related quest, he along with [[Skyrim:Asta|Asta]] will warn you not to desecrate the [[Lore:Eldergleam|Eldergleam]], otherwise you will face consequences brought about by [[Lore:Kynareth|Kynareth]].

He wears a [[Skyrim:Belted Tunic|belted tunic]] and a pair of [[Skyrim:Boots#0001be1b|boots]]. He carries a leveled [[Skyrim:Weapons#One-Handed Weapons|one-handed weapon]] which can be up to [[Skyrim:Elven|elven]] in quality along with a small amount of gold.

Sond will greet you with: ''"Welcome to Eldergleam Sanctuary, my friend. If you have any questions, speak to Asta."'' and ''"Kynareth humbles us with her beauty."'' Once you strike the Eldergleam's roots with [[Skyrim:Nettlebane|Nettlebane]], however, he'll change his tone: ''"Don't come any closer. I don't want Kynareth to think I'm on your side."''

{{NewLeft}}
== Related Quests ==
* {{Quest Link|The Blessings of Nature}}

== Bugs ==
{{Bug|If he is killed during [[Skyrim:The_Blessings_of_Nature|The Blessings of Nature]], his body will persist indefinitely due to missing stages in the quest script to track his death.|USKP|2.0.1}}
{{Bug|He is a unique NPC and is therefore unnecessarily flagged to respawn in the game data.|USKP|2.0.1}}

{{Stub|NPC}}

Online:Nibbles and Bits

2017-10-30T08:55:37Z

Kitkat1749:

{{Minimal|Quest}}
{{ONQP Header
|summaryWritten=
|summaryChecked=
|walkthroughWritten=
|walkthroughChecked=
|stagesWritten=
|stagesChecked=
}}{{Mod Header|Clockwork City}}{{Online Quest Header
|type=Side
|image=
|imgdesc=
|description=Scavenge grey-quality items for the Bursar of Tributes.
|Zone=Clockwork City
|Icon=
|Obj=
|Giver=[[ON:Bursar of Tributes|Bursar of Tributes]]
|Loc=[[ON:Brass Fortress|Brass Fortress]]
|Conc=
|Reward={{Item Link|Crow-Touched Clockwork Coffer|id=|quality=3|level=1}} {{huh}} Gold
|XP={{ESO XP|h}}
|Level=
|Repeatable=Daily
|Journal=The Bursar of Tributes seeks items of flesh to add to the Blackfeather Court's Hoard.
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
#Talk to the [[ON:Bursar of Tributes|Bursar of Tributes]]
#Scavenge the following items:
#*4 [[Online:Trash|Carapaces]]
#*3 [[Online:Trash|Foul Hide]]
#*5 [[Online:Trash|Daedra Husks]]
#Return to the [[ON:Bursar of Tributes|Bursar of Tributes]]

==Detailed Walkthrough==

==Notes==
All of those quest items qualify as junk and will therefore be handled by many addons.

==Quest Stages==

{{Stub|Quest}}

Skyrim talk:The Bonds of Matrimony

2017-10-29T22:42:06Z

Kitkat1749: Fixing formatting, removing response to a year old post which adds little to the discussion

==Bugs? Happens the morning after ==
Don't know if this is a bug or not but when I chose to get married it didn't happen the next morning, but the morning after. --[[Special:Contributions/198.54.202.194|198.54.202.194]] 19:18, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

:happend to me too. [[User:Puffin|Puffin]] 08:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

::I just checked this out, it appears that if you talk to Maramal after 12:00AM (say, 1am Tuesday morning), he considers "tomorrow at dawn" to be "Wednesday morning" - not "six hours from now". Either speak to him before midnight, or else just wait the extra day. --[[Special:Contributions/72.211.207.48|72.211.207.48]] 22:29, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

== Bug - Maramal doesn't start quest ==

I want to get married but when I go to Maramal for the quest,it does not show up.How do i fix this? {{uns2|07:18, May 22, 2012|Natsu}}

:Have you spoken to the person you're getting married to? Do you have any mods installed? '''[[User:Velyanthe|Vely]]'''[[User talk:Velyanthe|►Talk]][[Special:EmailUser/Velyanthe|►Email]] 16:50, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

::Similar problem also, went through the marriage and the quest didn't display in the log - it had the "attend your wedding ceremony" under the Misc, but it didn't create the "The Bonds of Matrimony" as a quest on the main logs.. is there a command to force the quest to appear? (sided with Vampires, want to turn spouse to Vampire ^^.) the setstage command does nothing because the main quest isn't there.. :\ [[Special:Contributions/101.168.42.164|101.168.42.164]] 03:56, 18 October 2012 (GMT)

:::Just had an issue that he didn't offer me an amulet, but then I realized I had one, so I put it on and asked my chosen to marry me just fine. [[User:AbsolutgrndZer0|AbsolutgrndZer0]] ([[User talk:AbsolutgrndZer0|talk]]) 11:15, 15 February 2013 (GMT)

::::Same exact issue. I've done marriage before with the same set of mods in a previous game, but never with this character. Character got engaged just fine, fiance is still enthusiastic and talking about the wedding, quest arrow points to Maramel who is still there, but he offers no "schedule wedding" dialogue. Just "donate" or "find out about Mara". SO frustrated. Went back many saves to see if it was something I did trying to work around the Markath mess. Only things I can think are that I console pushed one of the daedric quests through so I wouldn't have to kill a follower, or I have two amulets of mara in my inventory. So frustrated.

::::To elaborate, I have the fully updated game plus the 3 DLC, plus glowing ore, Dovahkiin hideout and lockpick pro. All of which worked fine before with marrying Mjoll in a different character's game. In this one, trying to marry Onmund, and failing. Which is too bad, as he's adorable about it. I tried both after completing the priestess's questline and before.

== missing spouse ==

Can spouses just dissapear in skyrim? I am married to Balimund the smith in Riften.
I never moved him from his home, but checked all of mine just in case.
His apprentice keeps asking me if I've met him.
I never received an inheritance letter.
I tried to get remarried and that didn't work.
He's just gone.
Can anyone fill me in [[User:Deanmakoma|Deanmakoma]] 17:43, 24 July 2012 (UTC)deanmakoma

:And just as mysteriously as he disappeared he is back. [[User:Deanmakoma|Deanmakoma]] 11:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)deanmakoma

::Hey. Same thing happened to me I married Roggi Knot-Beard and I wanted to get rid of him so I toke him out to the middle of nowhere and killed him. Never received an inheritance letter either. So I thought to look for him so I did. No luck. So I tried placeatme console command that will bring an npc character to you with the REF ID and it worked! Problem was that he didn't know me had all the normal conversations....then dissappered again. I don't know what to do either so day I thought wait! I can rest the The Bonds of Marriage quest use resetquest with the quest ID. That didn't work.

==Marring Companions==
I was curious I heard that Aela will take off every once and a while when left at home do all the Companions do the same or more specifically Ria? --[[User:Spmckinney|SPMcKinney]][[User talk:Spmckinney|T]][[Special:Contributions/Spmckinney|C]][[Special:EmailUser/Spmckinney|E]] 06:38, 2 November 2012 (GMT)
:Ria does. I think all of them do, they go out wandering in Skyrim and fighting. If you've married a Circle member then you can find your spouse using the give-me-a-radiant-quest objective in Miscellaneous (well you can find all Circle members, usually the others will be in Jorrvaskr so you can ignore them). --[[User:Morrolan|Morrolan]] ([[User talk:Morrolan|talk]]) 23:27, 16 December 2012 (GMT)

== Clone bug ==

While I was waiting for my wedding, I was sitting on the front bench of the temple. I waited (I used wait command until 1 hour before the weding then I waited without the wait button). The wedding didn't start when it should (the guests didn't show up), then I stood up and then the ceremony began. The ceremony was normal, I got married, and the guests left the temple. It was that moment when I realized something odd: I was cloned and I could talk to my exact clone (he was saying the same dialogue as the priests: 'congratulations to your wedding'). I have some pictures as well if needed.
My clone was unable to be pickpocketed or be hit by a sword. I left the temple and returned, he was still there. Then I traveled to Riften stabels and returned, my clone was still there. {{uns2|18:54, 29 January 2013|86.101.32.61}}
:EDIT: browsing the web I realized this happened to others as well, but it haven't been reported here until now. This should be addressed by the unofficial patch. {{uns2|18:57, 29 January 2013|86.101.32.61}}
::EDIT2: I reproduced this bug without sitting on the bench, I even left the temple and returned when it was wedding time. It seems something else causes the bug. {{uns2|19:32, 29 January 2013|86.101.32.61}}

== Bug - ceremony doesn't initiate ==

When I get to the ceremony part of the quest, Maramal never initiates the vows. {{uns2|21:04, 28 February 2013|70.171.43.105}}

:It used to work just fine. then, one day it didn't. When it first happened I had nothing different - same mm, same order, no new mods added, nothing deleted (or unchecked). Nothing. Then I decided to uninstall everything and use a diff mm
:The problem/bug I have is that getting married won't finish. unofficial patches are in. The Wedding Ceremony, I walk in the chapel and the game 'walks me down the isle" and will not continue. It doesn't freeze, It's just the "this person is busy" pops up when I try to talk.

== Bug with Aela's home dialogue ==

I married Aela. After she says "You could stay with me" no dialogue window comes up for me to respond. {{uns2| 21:10, 17 June 2013|67.160.139.232}}
:Have you tried reloading, or exiting the building then talking to her, or even waiting for an hour then trying again? Any of those are worth trying. — [[User:Alphabetface|ABCface]][[User_talk:Alphabetface|◥]] 21:15, 17 June 2013 (GMT)

::I married Farkas and same thing. After the ceremony he goes on about marriage not being what he thought it would, and where will we live? Then nothing. I had UFO mod loaded up, but took that off. Same thing. [[User:Pollockjaw|Pollockjaw]] ([[User talk:Pollockjaw|talk]]) 17:34, 30 November 2013 (GMT)

== Beginning Quest Bug ==

I can't seem to start the quest. I've spoken to Maramel about marriage, received an Amulet of Mara, and completed the necessary quest for my spouse, but the option does not show up for marriage. To answer easy questions, yes I have several mods installed, but I don't believe I have any that should screw up this quest. I tried setstage 20 but nothing worked. Does anyone know of anything that can help?

Thanks in advance,
[[User:Dyers Regret|Dyers Regret]] ([[User talk:Dyers Regret|talk]]) 04:46, 13 July 2014 (GMT)
:Good lord, I'm intelligent. I realized that I didn't equip the Amulet. Sorry for the confusion, but I wanted to leave this up as a small flag for anyone who's experiencing this. Always check to make sure the amulet is equipped. [[User:Dyers Regret|Dyers Regret]] ([[User talk:Dyers Regret|talk]]) 06:56, 13 July 2014 (GMT)

== Having your spouse follow you seems to screw with the whole thing ==

I've had the ceremony randomly fail before it was even supposed to begin, I've had the ceremony never advance even twenty four hours later...the only mods I have that could possibly modify spouse scripts are the unofficial patches. For best results, I recommend dismissing your fiance before starting the quest, then *keeping* them dismissed until after you've made your decision on where to live. [[User:Lavacano201014|Lavacano201014]] ([[User talk:Lavacano201014|talk]]) 00:38, 15 March 2015 (GMT)

== Possible wedding guests ==

I wondered which NPCs can appear as your wedding guests. Is there any complete list? Or are all NPC (like friendly ones, the ones that don't attack on sight) possible to appear as the wedding guests? [[Special:Contributions/93.91.51.153|93.91.51.153]]

:As far as I know, any NPC that considers you or your spouse a friend can apper at your wedding. There are surely some NPCs for which it is impossible to have either being true, but the list of all possible NPCs would be far too long to be of any real value. -- [[User:SarthesArai|SarthesArai]] [[User Talk:SarthesArai|Talk]] 21:19, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

== Fiance Doesn't Show, Priest is Busy ==

I'm playing on Xbox so no mods or console commands, and I've been trying to marry Mjoll the Lioness. I arranged the whole thing and it was all set, and then I waited 24 hours outside the temple. When I stepped inside, Mjoll wasn't there and when I tried to talk to Maramol, it just said he's busy. I tried reloading a save from before I talked to Maramol, but no luck there either. If I wait another 24, the wedding has failed, my kid and housecarl are all mad at me, Maramol tells me to get out and Mjoll is still nowhere to be found but apparently it's my fault that my fiance decided not to show up at our wedding. Also Mjoll and Aerin are completely gone. I can't find them anywhere. It's like they fell off the world. Does anyone know what the deal with this is? Or how to fix it w/out console commands? [[Special:Contributions/65.60.196.84|65.60.196.84]] 03:23, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

:I finally got it to work, but I'm still not sure why... [[Special:Contributions/65.60.196.84|65.60.196.84]] 03:32, 24 May 2016 (UTC)

Skyrim:Valindor's House

2017-10-29T09:27:58Z

Kitkat1749: Wording, tenses, general clarity of phrasing

<noinclude>{{Cleanup-shrp
|writtenby=Biffa
|checkedby=
}}</noinclude>{{Place Summary
|type=Home
|zones=1
|image=SR-place-Valindor's_House.jpg
|imgdesc=Valindor's House
|region=The Rift
|location=[[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]]
|description=a house which is owned by [[Skyrim:Valindor|Valindor]].
|locationcode=RiftenValindorsHouse
|cooking=1
|shadowmark=loot
}}
It is located on the lower levels of [[Skyrim:Riften|Riften]], alongside the canal which flows through the city. It is next door to [[Skyrim:Marise Aravel's House|Marise Aravel's House]], and below the [[Skyrim:Temple of Mara|Temple of Mara]].
{{NewLeft}}
== Residents ==
{| class=wikitable width=120px
!Residents
|-
|
;[[Skyrim:Valindor|Valindor]]
|}
== Walkthrough ==
[[File:SR-interior-Valindor's House.jpg|right|thumb|Valindor's house]]This is a single room dwelling, with a partial wall dividing it into separate areas. The main living space consists of a fireplace against the east wall, two chairs pulled up in front, a small table with a bottle of [[Skyrim:Wine|wine]] on it between them, and a [[Skyrim:Cooking Pot|cooking pot]] on the hearth. Along the north wall, a set of shelves holds two bottles of [[Skyrim:Nord Mead|Nord mead]], a [[Skyrim:Sweet Roll|sweet roll]], several [[Skyrim:Potato|potatoes]], an [[Skyrim:Apple Pie|apple pie]], several pieces of cheese, and a bottle of [[Skyrim:Alto Wine|Alto wine]]. Against the west wall is a dresser, with a copy of the book ''[[Skyrim:Of Crossed Daggers|Of Crossed Daggers]]'' on top. A dining table, a bench, some barrels and some sacks of [[Skyrim:Food|food]] stand beside the partial wall; hanging above are two [[Skyrim:Garlic|garlic]] braids, two bunches of [[Skyrim:Elves Ear|elves ear]], and two bunches of [[Skyrim:Frost Mirriam|frost mirriam]]. The table is lain with a [[Skyrim:Baked Potatoes|baked potato]], a portion of [[Skyrim:Grilled Leeks|grilled leeks]], a loaf of [[Skyrim:Bread|bread]], an [[Skyrim:Eidar Cheese Wheel|Eidar cheese wheel]], a bottle of Alto wine, and a bottle of Nord mead.

Beyond the partition is a sparse bedroom, comprised of an owned, single bed; on an end table beside it lies a copy of the book ''[[Skyrim:Horker Attacks|Horker Attacks]].'' To the right is a wardrobe, storing [[Skyrim:Clothes|clothes]]; opposite this, along the south wall, is an unlocked wooden [[Skyrim:Chest|chest]] containing minor loot.

==Notes==
* There is a {{Shadowmark|Loot}} [[Skyrim:Thieves Guild (faction)#Shadowmarks|shadowmark]] on the left doorstep.
* Once you have joined the [[Skyrim:Thieves Guild (faction)|Thieves Guild]], a barrel that is carved with the {{Shadowmark|Cache}} shadowmark appears opposite the entrance, on the walkway that travels along side the canal.

Skyrim talk:Totems of Hircine

2017-10-29T07:50:40Z

Kitkat1749: Reply

{{Archive Table
|Archive 1|| Dec 2011 - Aug 2012
}}

== About Animal Extermination Quests PLEASE READ! ==

*Aela may give repeated [[Skyrim:Animal_Extermination_(A)|Animal Extermination]] quests and not the Totems quests.

I thought this was happening to me at first, but after doing several Animal Extermination quests from Aela, she gave me a second totem quest. I believe that these quests are offered AT RANDOM by Aela, and may not necessarily happen one after another. Just wanted to make sure everyone knew that. If you're curious about the circumstances for whatever reason, I'm playing on PC, I'm a werewolf, I've cured Farkas and Vilkas, and I did NOT have a witch head in my inventory when I was offered the second quest. [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 16:55, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

:I don't know why deleting this hint from this article, since it really helped me. But okay, if YOU think that it is not suitable here, delete it, mr. I-believe-that-these-quests-are-offered-AT-RANDOM-by-Aela. However, guys, if you face such a problem, try this solution: take all the witch heads into your inventory and speak to Aela. {{uns2|17:11, 8 January 2012|109.194.111.84}}
::I'm not going to act all high and mighty, but you should know that kind of tone won't win you any support amongst the other editors. Some of the higher ups in particular frown on that kind of thing in discussions. Getting back on topic, please note that I didn't just remove your addition about the witch heads; I removed the whole thing until the matter can be settled here. If you'll look at the discussion above, it has already been noted by others that for them, the quests were random. The reason I removed it from the page is that until the matter of whether or not the bug truly exists is settled, it shouldn't be listed as a "bug". [[User:ThuumofReason|ThuumofReason]] 17:18, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

:::Hay i dont have a account on this site but im gonna say something anyway. I have to say that you are both wrong when it come to it being a glitch or a random quest drop(no offence) i found that what is actually happening is that she only gives 1 totem quest every so meny days. However if you talk to her when she sleeps she will always give the next totem quest. also for the one that posted this ("I don't know why deleting this hint from this article, since it really helped me. But okay, if YOU think that it is not suitable here, delete it, mr. I-believe-that-these-quests-are-offered-AT-RANDOM-by-Aela. However, guys, if you face such a problem, try this solution: take all the witch heads into your inventory and speak to Aela.") i have too say that you need to bring down your aggresion on the internet because you really are making yourself look like a idiot thats afraid he's wrong. {{uns2|07:45, 2 April 2012|72.130.225.198}}

::::Okay I tried the talk-to-her-while-she's-sleeping trick and it totally worked! But it might not be the sleeping that's the trigger. Reloaded the save and found that she would give me the quest as soon as she entered the basement of Jorrvaskr (which is where she sleeps anyway, but on this try she was awake). It's either got something to do with the basement, or that she simply transitioned areas (NPC's seem to "refresh" whenever they transition areas). By the way did not have any witches head in my inventory and was not married to her or anyone else. So basically, after doing an animal extermination quest, when turning them in don't ask for new work right away. Exit the conversation, wait for her to move into the basement (which she'll do if it's during night time) and ask her again for work after she enters the basement. {{uns2|14:32, 14 September 2012‎|101.117.0.219}}

{{od}}Responding above, to further compound and or help, following your basement suggestion I turned in one Animal Extermination Quest to be issued an additional. I completed this one as well and she then offered the initial totem quest. All while she was sleeping in her room. I'll do a little experimenting and post my results. It seems, for the moment, there is not a repeatable way to get the quest offered atleast on my end. I had the witches heads(4) in my inventory and was a Male married Nord whom cleansed the spirits of the brothers of their Lycanthropy previously. I can also verify I turned in about 12 Extermination Quests while upstairs in Jorrvaskr and she did not offer the quest before I sought answers here from you luminous aforementioned "high and mighty" folk. ;) --[[User:Landomatic|Landomatic]] ([[User talk:Landomatic|talk]]) 04:36, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

:I Completed 2 more random Animal Extermination Quests then was offered the 2nd Hircine Totem Quest while in the basement. When upstairs, she did not offer the totem quest. Obiviously I saved and loaded into both locations for testing. To further add to the unusual nature of this, I moved her to both locations as a follower.--[[User:Landomatic|Landomatic]] ([[User talk:Landomatic|talk]]) 06:08, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

::I completed an additional 2 more random Animal Extermination Quests, and was invited to the final totem quest, then completed the series. So from the beginning and before the initial totem offering quest I acquired and completed the 2 "work" pre-requisite quests when she was upstairs but DID wait until the evening to ask for the 3rd query whilst she was sleeping, which led to the Hircine Totem quest initial offering. I then performed 2 more work quests when she was around Jorrvaskr but not inside it. Once in the afternoon then subsequently in the early morning. Following the previous posts I did perform the 3rd query again in her room but not at night while she was in my party. Basically, I asked her to join me on the 2 previous Animal Extermination jobs, completed them then led her to her basement room between jobs, spoke to her for completion credit then parted ways before asking for a 3rd job, which was always the Totem-line. For the final Totem invitation I repeated the 1st 2 series of steps except I completed and asked for the work always in the basement and at night using her in my party. On the 3rd query for work, she offered the final totem quest. I deduced that if you have the unlimited Animal Extermination bug you need to perform two radiant work quests from her, then ask for a third while she is in Jorvasskr Living Quarters (basement) which will yield the totem of Hircine questline. While I didn't test it, I would also surmise that using the console commands as listed on the mainpage, but in the basement would also more quickly get you all 3 totems expeditiously. I hope this helps. --[[User:Landomatic|Landomatic]] ([[User talk:Landomatic|talk]]) 07:23, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

== Bug carry over? ==
I'm having an extremely difficult time with this quest as well and I'm thinking it might have something to do with Stage 0 and 1 as well, something is causing the game to lock these in and it somehow confuses everything. I don't know what because I don't know much about the programming but it's definitely causing this to lock in permanently when it does, as I've done a save where I've married Aela and on every save since she won't give me a totem quest(xbox 360). On PC I could just use some commands to unstick it, but can someone who has a better understanding of what they're doing take a closer look at these Stages and figure out if this really is the cause, because it's really killing the console experience
[[Special:Contributions/71.110.105.3|71.110.105.3]] 02:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)

:Hello, please elaborate "lock in?"
:--[[User:Landomatic|Landomatic]] ([[User talk:Landomatic|talk]]) 07:29, 1 February 2013 (GMT)

== Another bug.. ==
Im having similiar bug problems as everyone else, except its happening after i get the quest... i headed over to my quest dungeon (which was falkreath watchtower) and when i got there i got the totem. Aela disapeared at this point...and the quest never advanced..even with the totem in my inventory the quest stage is still at "find the totem of hircine" so i dont know what to do. This happen to anybody else? {{uns2|23:12, 3 August 2012|Planetjohn12}}
:Yes, just happened to me. any fix for this? i'm on a console (ps3){{unsigned|203.219.135.21|21:19, 27 January 2013}}
:: I fixed the issue by reopening the chest the totem was in and quickly hitting wait before the chest window showed up and she simply reappears (ps3) {{Uns2|00:05, 19 February 2013|24.121.47.32}}
:::I had similar issues, fast traveling did not make her show up. I tried reopening the chest and she finally showed up after I rested for an hour. {{uns2|14:13, 8 August 2013|66.233.130.104}}

== Totems of Hircine and Dragonborn ==

If you have Dragonborn installed, locations in Solstheim might be selected for this quest. I just received a location of North Shore Landing, and realized that it was on the other continent when I couldn't find it on my map.

<nowiki>----</nowiki> [[User:Scrysis|Scrysis]], 03:33, 26 June 2013 (PST)

== Recieving Quests While Serana Is A Follower ==
''If [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]] is installed and Serana is your follower, Aela will only give Animal Extermination quests. Simply dismiss Serana at the end of the questline to receive Totems of Hircine quests.''

:An IP removed this from the article. I've readded it for the time being, but can anyone corroborate this either way? --[[User:Anil|AN|L]] ([[User talk:Anil|talk]]) 18:07, 4 July 2013 (GMT)

::I can confirm this information is incorrect as i had Serana as a follower prior and during these quests, you must simply complete a few Animal extermination quests in order to proceed with the Totems of Hercine quest line {{uns2|15:50, 15 July 2013|86.132.209.37}}

:::You don't need to complete any animal extermination quests. I have never done any and was given this quest. Any jobs for the companions seem to advance the ones they offer. {{uns2|17:22, 5 August 2013‎|24.196.205.73}}

:::::Someone needs to correct the page if this is the case. I like Serana as a follower, and want to complete all the quests. (Had to resign, was not logged in.) [[User:FMPhoenixHawk|FMPhoenixHawk]] ([[User talk:FMPhoenixHawk|talk]]) 19:31, 29 March 2014 (GMT)

== Aela Won't Give Any Work Whatsoever? ==

I've become harbinger, I'm level 55, I've cured Farkas, And Aela Died a while back but somehow respawned. Does respawning disable work for her and thus totem quests? Or must I cure Vilkas before the totems become obtainable? {{unsigned|76.97.80.106|01:56, 8 September 2013}}‎

: I don't know how long ago this was asked because it isn't signed, but I have never had Awls give me a totem quest until after Vilkas and Farkas are both cured, but it sounds like she may actually be broken if she wont give any work at all. She would still give me animal extermination quests even when I hadn't cured either of the guys. I guess it wouldn't hurt to try curing Vilkas and see if that fixes her for you. [[User:KeturahIshtari|KeturahIshtari]] ([[User talk:KeturahIshtari|talk]]) 08:30, 16 September 2013 (GMT)

== Possible Aela bug (Xbox) ==

I was on my first totem quest and attempting to return the Totem of Fear to the Underforge. I fast traveled to Dragonsreach, and took a shortcut by jumping into the water near the stairs, so I got to the UF before Aela. When she finally came in, she got stuck in running mode and just kept running into the totem pedestal. Even speaking with her, recruiting her as a follower, and leaving the UF didn't fix her, she remained in the UF running against the pedestal until I reloaded and redid the quest from the beginning. Anyone else? [[User:KeturahIshtari|KeturahIshtari]] ([[User talk:KeturahIshtari|talk]]) 08:38, 16 September 2013 (GMT)
: I haven't tried that one, but running ahead of your quest giver (and, in this case, follower) is never a good idea. I did it with Serana and had to reload as well. --[[User:Krusty|Krusty]] ([[User talk:Krusty|talk]]) 12:07, 16 September 2013 (GMT)

== There are no Totems where they are marked ==

I'm on my second Totem quest and it is marked in the chest in Northshore Landing in Solsthiem, but it isn't inside the chest, and it is still marked to be there, I tried rebooting the game(I'm playing on PS3), fast traveling then fast travel back, but it's still not there, Aela is my wife, I'm still a were-wolf, what is the problem, can anyone help me? If this quest is bugged I can't buy, sell or trade with her and I can't go anywhere without her following, PLEASE HELP! {{Uns2|08:18, 30 December 2013|Knail712}}

:Try waiting for 10 days for the location to respawn, not guaranteed to fix it though. [[User:The Silencer|Silence is Golden]][[User talk:The Silencer|Break the Silence]] 01:55, 15 January 2014 (GMT)

== I got brought to this site when I asked y does the second or third totem quest of hircine show up in skyrim ) ==

If u didnt understand that u fot to bear with me I drinker when I went thru so much bs to not get anywhere but money or good weapon enchant (etc conjured mage) I dont use nothing but light armor furthermore I wont say anybody's wrong cuz if u look at the actually developers comments (cant remember where I first saw them looking them up for my younger bro that couldn't understand many form of reading but was extremely good in math in other studies either way wat im getting at is im 57 I was a game developer I understand games more than ppl that just r entertained by the games I pay attention very closely nd think over night or days on end about games just to help other nd I wont call anyone a liver but wat I will say is the question that was asked by me atleast submit giving me no type of answer but about wat u guys r talking about I never had a house not married no kids nd still get thru the first totem quest im stuck on a the second some reason it will not show up on my map I seems it says radiant I know wat it means for this game but wat im saying is that no one specified it will show up at random places or wat place is was really at nd that's my question I will help the ppl that were talking about getting the totems quest I did the companions quest one after another nd wat my results were was that I got the totem of hircine quest (1) then I got animal extermination (1-2) times then got the second totem of hircine quest nd that's wat im now stuck on I am myself alil problems nothing bad just dealing with school stuff so if u can help a 57 year of ex game deceloper that would be really good thank you for help if u will

== TOTEM OF HIRCINE ==

If you have the same problem as I had, She would not give me the first mission of totem of hircine, you just have to do as the site commanded but with one thing else, when you put the command setstage cr12 20 the quest will start and you will be able to put the first of the totems but you may not be able to put anymore of them and not to even force it with the setstage command. I discovered that to fix that is there but a simple thing, just when you recive the totem ask Aela to follow you into the shrine, when she leaves the place she will be able to give you your next totem of hircine quest without any bugs at all.

== Prerequisite Quest ==

This page lists [[Skyrim:Retrieval|Retrieval]] as a pre-req, and Retrieval lists this page as the "next quest".

Is see the quest IDs support that idea, but on the other hand, we're talking about radiant quests - and furthermore, [[Skyrim:Companions#Radiant_Quests|here]] and [[Skyrim:Aela_the_Huntress#Totems_of_Hircine|here]] we have [[Skyrim:Glory_of_the_Dead|Glory of the Dead]] noted as the pre-req.

So which is true? If GotD is needed, and given that Retrieval becomes inaccessible after GotD, is it possible to skip Retrieval and does that break ToH? Is this a case of incomplete documentation or is this a case of incorrect documentation? - [[User:Bomb Bloke|Bomb Bloke]] ([[User talk:Bomb Bloke|talk]]) 01:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

== One note is not true ==

"If Dawnguard is installed and Serana is your follower, Aela will only give Animal Extermination quests. Simply dismiss Serana at the end of the questline to receive Totems of Hircine quests."

I have Serana as a follower and got two totem of Hiricine quests so far after a few retries. Perhaps the person that added it was simply unlucky? Would recommend removing it. --[[User:SkyHiRider|SkyHiRider]] ([[User talk:SkyHiRider|talk]]) 07:39, 29 October 2017 (UTC)
:Looking through the talk page, you're not the only one questioning the accuracy of that note. I've removed it for the time being; if someone has an issue with the removal they can bring it up here. [[User:Kitkat1749|Kitkat]][[User_talk:Kitkat1749|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Kitkat1749|Contrib]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Kitkat1749|Email]] 07:50, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Skyrim:Totems of Hircine

2017-10-29T07:47:34Z

Kitkat1749: Removing dubious information; see numerous posts on talk page

<noinclude>{{Cleanup-srqrp
|writtenBy=Multiple
|checkedBy=
|reward=90.222.231.175
|rewardChecked=RobinHood70
}}</noinclude>{{Trail|Quests|Companions|Radiant}}
{{Quest Header
|Giver=[[Skyrim:Aela the Huntress|Aela the Huntress]]
|Reward=A Totem of Hircine, leveled gold
|Disp=
|Rep=
|Prev=[[Skyrim:Retrieval|Retrieval]]
|Conc=
|Next=
|Loc=[[Skyrim:Whiterun|Whiterun]]
|Image=SR-quest-Totems of Hircine.jpg
|ImgDesc=The Totem of Brotherhood in its receptacle in the Underforge
|description= Journey to the given location to find a Totem of Hircine.
|ID=CR12
|Icon=
|Radiant=yes
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Travel to the indicated location on your map.
# Retrieve the Totem by any means necessary.
# Return to the [[Skyrim:The Underforge|Underforge]], then use one of the totem receptacles to complete the quest and receive your reward.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Accepting the Quest===
Asking [[Skyrim:Aela the Huntress|Aela the Huntress]], ''"Is there any work to be done?"'' will prompt her to tell you about the Totems of Hircine. She will say that she has located one and would be honored if you go with her to retrieve it. If you accept the quest, she will become your Shield-Sister and will replace your current companion.

===Retrieve the Totem of Hircine===
[[File:SR-quest-Totems of Hircine 02.jpg|thumb|right|Aela prays to the Totem]]
Journey to the location given by Aela and kill the enemies lurking around. The location is [[Skyrim:Radiant|radiant]], and it can be any [[:Category:Skyrim-Places-Animal Dens|animal den]], [[:Category:Skyrim-Places-Vampire Lairs|vampire lair]], or [[:Category:Skyrim-Places-Warlock Lairs|warlock lair]] with a boss chest. The totem is most often found in the boss chest. Once you have the totem, Aela will approach and ask if you have it. When you tell her you do, she will tell you to bring it back to the [[Skyrim:The Underforge|Underforge]]. When you return to the Underforge, place the totem on the marked area—the quest will finish and you will receive a leveled amount of gold. You can now pray to the totem to receive a new power while in [[Skyrim:Beast Form|Beast Form]], which replaces your old one.

There are three total totems, each granting a different ability in Beast Form.

===Reward===
{{SRCompanionsRadiantReward}}

==The Totems of Hircine==
The totems are described in detail in the tome, ''[[Skyrim:The Totems of Hircine|The Totems of Hircine]]''. By praying to these totems, you will be given a unique ability that replaces the older Howl of Terror; it is activated by pressing the shout button while in [[Skyrim:Beast Form|beast form]]. All abilities last for 60 seconds, though its duration can be increased by 15 seconds by equipping the [[Dragonborn:Unique_Items#Ring of the Moon|Ring of the Moon]]{{DB}} before activating Beast Mode.

*'''Totem of Fear''': Causes [[Skyrim:Fear (spell)|Fear]]
*'''Totem of Brotherhood''': Summons 2 [[Skyrim:Pack Member|Pack Members]]
*'''Totem of The Hunt''': Grants [[Skyrim:Detect Life (effect)|Detect Life]]

==Notes==
{{Dragonborn Radiant Location Note}}
* You can only trigger this quest if you are still a [[Skyrim:Werewolf|werewolf]]. If you have purified yourself, you are unable to do this quest.
* If Whiterun is under attack, you cannot enter the [[Skyrim:The Underforge|Underforge]] until Whiterun is back to normal. It will tell you a key is needed to enter and that it cannot be lockpicked.
* At the end of this quest, Aela will begin praying to the new totem in the Underforge. It is possible to ask her to follow you while she is praying; her dialogue will change, and she will allow you access to her inventory, but will not stop praying or move away from the totem.
* Aela will not give these quests while she is an active follower, though she will give Animal Extermination quests.
* If you have just dropped off a totem in the Underforge, Aela will be praying to it and only offer an Animal Extermination quest (dialogue option, ''"I'm looking for work"''). Leave the Underforge, return, then talk to Aela again. Repeat until Aela (still in prayer) offers the next totem quest (dialogue, ''"Is there any work to be done?"'').

==Bugs==
{{Bug|If you've completed [[Skyrim:A Daedra's Best Friend|A Daedra's Best Friend]], you may be taken to Haemar's Cavern and your system can lock up when entering Haemar's Shame. You won't be able to complete the quest and will have Aela as a follower, but with no dialogue options.|OSP|1.4}}
*{{Bug|This also seems to happen if the totem is located in Morvunskar, and [[Skyrim:A Night To Remember|A Night To Remember]] has been completed. This can be worked around by carefully navigating around the point where the portal to the Misty Grove was placed earlier.|vn=1}}
** {{pc22}} This can be resolved by manually advancing the quest with the console command <code>setstage cr12 20</code>.
{{Bug|Curing yourself of lycanthropy before taking this quest causes the Underforge door to become unresponsive. You cannot end the quest or get rid of Aela as a result.
** {{pc22}}You can finish the quest using the console command <code>coc "WhiterunUnderForge"</code> and placing the totem in its place, but Aela may stay inside, forcing you to use the command each time.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|While recovering a totem located in [[Skyrim:Ansilvund|Ansilvund]], it is possible that one of the swinging axe traps may knock Aela through a hole in the map, rendering the quest un-fulfillable. Aela may reappear at a later time although the trigger is unknown. Common factors such as fast traveling and waiting are worth trying.|vn=1}} One method that has been found effective is to pray at one of the previously acquired totems. Aela may then appear at the entrance of the Underforge.
{{Bug|If Aela won't give you the first totem quest, check the status of this quest with the console command "sqs cr12". If both Stage 0 and Stage 1 are marked as completed (with a 1 behind the respective stage), use the console command "resetquest cr12". It is recommended to do this after handing in an Animal Extermination quest but before asking for more work.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|If you do not complete all of the radiant quests of Aela the Huntress in the initial wave before advancing, you will be stuck doing Animal Extermination quests from her indefinitely, unable to collect the Totems of Hircine.|vn=1}}
**{{Pc22}} Firstly, use the console command <code>setstage CR12 1</code>. Then, get an [[Skyrim:Animal Extermination (A)|Animal Extermination]] quest from Aela. Now use the console command <code>setstage CR01 20</code> or <code>setstage CR02 20</code> (depending on which version of the quest you're assigned), and return to Aela to finish the quest. Ask for work from her again and use the command <code>setstage CR12 20</code> to complete the quest, and go to the Underforge to place the totem, which completes this quest. Repeat these steps 2 more times for the remaining 2 totems. Alternatively, this can be fixed by marrying Aela, then again asking her for work after deciding on a place to live. {{vn|section=Animal Extermination}}
{{Bug|If Aela is chosen as your wife, after completing a totem quest she will stay and pray at the totem and will not return home.|confirmed=1}}
**{{Xbox22}} This can be fixed on Xbox 360: You need lots of healing and dual-casting master illusionist abilities. Have her as a follower, take away all her weapons and give her a cheap sword. Then punch her enough times to get her to attack you (heal yourself as needed). Go through the front exit so you are outside of Jorrvaskr... she should follow you out and continue to attack you. Lead her off a good ways at which point, Dual-cast Calm on her and immediately talk to her and have her re-join you. Test her compliance by drawing a weapon or spell (she should do likewise, not just stand there - if she doesn't draw, restart the process). Once she's drawn a weapon, fast-travel to another location. She should now act normally, and if a spouse or steward, should remain at other locations when dismissed.

==Quest Stages==
{{Journal Entries
|10||Aela has tracked one of the Totems of Hircine to <Alias=Dungeon>, and has come with me to retrieve it.
{{Quest Objective|10|Retrieve the Totem of Hircine}}
|20||Aela and I retrieved a Totem of Hircine from <Alias=Dungeon>.
{{Quest Objective|20|Take the Totem to the Underforge}}
|200|fin|
|missing=0, 1, 100
}}
{{Skyrim Quest Stages Notes}}
{{Stub|Quest}}

Skyrim:Glitches

2017-10-29T07:40:00Z

Kitkat1749: Undo revision 1697084 by 67.44.192.49 (talk) Unexplained removal of information

{{Trail}}{{quality}}{{TOCright|limit=3}}
This article documents general '''glitches''' that have been discovered in Skyrim.

'''Quest, place, NPC, creature, and item-specific glitches do ''not'' belong on this page, but rather on their respective page.'''

This is not an exhaustive list of every anomaly that may possibly occur. There are numerous minor animation oddities and graphical surprises that you can uncover if you try to trigger them; if you choose to do a bizarre and unpredictable set of actions, it is likely that the game's response will also be bizarre and unpredictable. Rather, these articles only document glitches that other readers are likely to be interested in learning about: i.e., those that have serious consequences; those that can be exploited to your advantage; and those that most players are likely to uncover during standard gameplay.

Furthermore, these articles focus on '''general''' glitches. Glitches that are only encountered under very specific situations are documented on other articles: problems during a quest will be documented on that quest's article; problems that only occur in a given location will be described on that place's article; etc. If you are looking for information on a problem that you've encountered, you should start by searching the same way as non-problem-related information by looking at the wiki article on that topic. This article is the place to look if there is an inexplicable problem whose source is not obvious, or for problems that don't fit into one of the site's other articles.

==Glitches==
Please visit (and contribute to) Bethesda's official bug report in [http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/1298524-xbox-360-bug-report-topic/ their forums].

===Achievements===
{{Bug|{{Xbox22}} If you sign out of your profile during a load screen, then quickly sign back in after earning the Achievement "[[Skyrim:Wanted|Wanted]]", it will display the achievement as being unlocked; however, no Gamerscore will be given and the amount of achievements shown will be 1 less than it should be if this happens. It will not count Skyrim towards the 100% completion grouping either.|vn=1}}

===Getting Stuck===
{{Bug|You may become stuck after a cinematic event.|confirmed=1}}
**{{Pc22}} Use the [[Skyrim:Console|console]] command <code>enableplayercontrols</code> to regain your controls.
{{Bug|If you try to mine ore while in Sneak mode, you may become stuck in the mining animation.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|It is possible to get stuck between objects and be unable to move.|confirmed=1}}
** If this happens outdoors, you can fast-travel to a new location to escape.
** {{Pc22}} Use the console command <code>tcl</code> to toggle collision detection off, then move through the object you are stuck behind, then enter the console command <code>tcl</code> to toggle collision detection back on.
{{Bug|Opening a loading door while being rag-dolled will get you stuck in a lying down position which won't allow you to use crafting stations, this can be fixed by attacking.|vn=1}}

===NPC Dialogue===
{{Bug|If an NPC changes location (via doorway) while you are in conversation with them, you will be unable to finish the conversation. When spoken to again, they will repeat the first line of conversation but have no conversation options.|confirmed=1}}
*{{Bug|{{Pc22}} Sometimes, the NPC won't even talk to you. The options won't be there either and for some reason you won't be able to leave conversation using either Tab nor Esc}}
{{Bug|{{Pc22}} If you initiate a conversation with an NPC while holding the walk/run button, the button will invert upon leaving the conversation (i.e. if you use hold shift to walk, you will now have to hold shift to run). This can be fixed by opening a menu, holding the walk/run button, and then exiting the menu while holding that button. This does not include the "options" menu.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|{{Pc22}} If you are in a conversation with an NPC and open the Steam in-game interface using Shift+Tab, you will no longer be able to use Tab to end the conversation upon returning to the game. This is related to the Shift toggle bug where if you press Shift during/initiating a conversation it "sticks". You can unstick Shift by pressing it once or manually clicking the exit key. Simply waiting may cause the NPC to eventually end the conversation.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Pausing during dialogue while an NPC is talking will cause the NPC to skip to the next line if enough time has passed for the voice clip to be finished.|confirmed=1}}
** {{Pc22}} This can be fixed by opening the [[Skyrim:Console|Console]] to pause the game during dialogue.
{{Bug|{{Pc22}} When on a trade screen with a merchant or follower, sometimes clicking on a particular menu item (such as Weapons or Misc) will exit the trade screen. This is because it doesn't automatically register where you click as the active region and the active selection/clicked area can be out of sync. This also leads to a bug where clicking on a specific dialogue choice actually registers as a different one you had highlighted.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Changing locations while in mid-conversation with an NPC sometimes causes the NPC to follow you to that location.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|While one NPC is talking to another, it is possible to make them skip their dialogue line(s) that appear on-screen. While the NPC is talking, sprint into them they'll stumble back and continue on without finishing their sentence(s).|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|While an NPC is sleeping, if you go to talk to them, they may sleep and talk at the same time.|confirmed=1}}

===Loading===
{{Bug|When loading another saved game, being in a sunny area will not display any shadow while being where a shadow area would be darkens the whole world.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Sometimes some of the scenery disappears or is completely cut off. If you try to walk into the disappearing landscape, then you will be told that you "cannot go that way", causing you to freeze. This can cause the game to be unplayable as you cannot move in any direction without being stuck.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Sometimes when you load into a new area you may not interact with certain objects and entities.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Water does not render correctly in occasional chunks. The water still exists, but is invisible. In these instances, there may be a rectangular patch missing from the screen. Reloading a save file may fix this issue.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|When the game forces a cell change (e.g. when you are arrested with a large bounty and brought to a castle) you will sometimes load before certain key elements of the cell do (such as the ground).|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|When reloading a save, your legs and lower body may become stuck in the floor. This can be rectified by jumping.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|{{Pc22}} Sometimes when loading a quicksave using the quickload key (normally F9), you may become over-encumbered even though you're not, showing the message "You are carrying too much to be able to run". To fix this you have to sheathe or unsheathe your weapon or go to the items menu. This doesn't permanently fix the problem, as every time you quickload a quicksave the problem will return. The only way to really fix it is to start loading the quicksave through the load menu.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|When fast-traveling with a following NPC, in rare instances, the NPC may act like the enemy shaking glitch, but will occur in the ground rather than being inside an object. It only occurs if standing near it and not moving. This can be corrected by having the NPC follow you to somewhere other than the area it was just in.|vn=1}}

===Physics===
{{Bug|Objects you push that remain in contact cause you to "vibrate", which gains velocity as it continues and can very easily lead to death or could force the object to disappear. This is most observable with carts as it's very easy to push them and still be touching them, especially if you are in the cart itself.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Enemies may occasionally get stuck on the scenery and animate incorrectly (extremely fast and jerky). Sometimes this may result in them catapulting high into the air and then falling to their deaths. This can also happen as a result of the dead dragons being launched into the air as the unintended effect of a spell. The body of the dragon can get stuck in the front gate or bridge of a town that you fast travel to.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Objects which are affected by physics can appear to simply disappear if they are pushed outside the bounds of playable areas. They still exist but are unreachable.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|NPCs that are killed while they are sitting in a chair or sleeping will often end up lying under their chair or bed and occasionally partway under the floor.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|If you drop items from your inventory and re-enter the zone or reload a save, you will find the items you positioned are not where you put them after grabbing and moving them, but rather in the exact place where they were dropped from your inventory. This seems to occur only when you load a save from that same area, then immediately drop and rearrange the item before leaving. Loading the save, leaving the area, coming back, then dropping and rearranging gets it to stick.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Enemies killed by a decapitation may disappear; you can loot them afterwards, but they will be invisible.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|When using the slow time perk with bows, the enemy's shield or weapon may hang in the air after killing them, in the same position it was in when they were shot. |vn=1}}
{{Bug|Sometimes when you hold an object up to a wall and sprint into it, your character will glitch between the wall and object and be forced through the wall into unplayable areas. This can be used to reach merchant chests that are hidden behind or below walls.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Sometimes whenever the console is processing lots of data, (for land generation and spawnings) weapons will randomly appear out of nowhere and float in midair indefinitely until you activate or move them. This only seems to happen in outdoor habitats.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|On rare occasions, when you kill an NPC that is or belongs to an enemy, that entity will fall through the ground and appear (still dead) approximately 200 yards from where it was killed. This is most noticeable with horses.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|For some odd reason, on extremely rare instances, you may find a human NPC sleeping on a bed that has a table "squashed" above it, creating a somewhat enclosed area. Because of this, when the NPC first wakes up in the bed, he/she will raise up as normal, but they will appear to be stuck and will slide through the table to where the edge of the bed is and stand up as normal, as though the table didn't exist. This may be from the cause of an error in the design, or an improper setup.|vn=1}}

===Sound===
{{Bug|Sometimes when [[Skyrim:Elemental_Fury|Elemental Fury]] is cast on a weapon the sound effect continues to play endlessly, regardless of changing your shout, sheathing (or replacing) your weapon, or retrying the shout. A similar issue has been recorded with the sound effects of [[Skyrim:Chillrend|Chillrend]] and [[Skyrim:Ice_Form|Ice Form]] (although less likely to occur). Typing <code>sexchange</code> into the computer console removes the issue temporarily, but when the save is reloaded the problem persists.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Frequently, and seemingly at random, sound effects lag for as long as 5-6 seconds, then will occur all at once. This often happens when sneak-attacking with a bow.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|The music that plays during combat may not cease after combat ends.|confirmed=1}}
**Completely exiting the game and restarting may fix this.
**{{Pc22}}Opening the console and typing <code>removemusic muscombat</code> may fix this. This will not prevent you from hearing the music again once another fight starts.
{{Bug|The dungeon clear tune may occur when you are not in a dungeon or even doing anything in particular.|confirmed=1}}

===Weapons, Armor, and Apparel===
{{Bug|Weapons and shields do not clean up from the world properly, and after a time they will begin to float in air near where they were lying.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Switching weapons in combat has a 3-10 seconds delay. This is especially obvious when switching from a bow to spells or from a bow to dual wield swords.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Certain types of weapons, when bound to a hotkey, will become unbound if more than one is in your inventory when the key is used. This only occurs for weapons that cannot be equipped to each hand through hotkeys (i.e. daggers, swords and greatswords).|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Wearing a mask with any hooded robe can cause your character's head to become invisible.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|With the Heavy/Light weightless armor perks, if a single piece of armor in a stack is equipped, the entire stack is weightless.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Killing an archer that has drawn its bow but not yet released an arrow can result in the dropped bow appearing to still be drawn.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Dual-Wielding displays only one weapon when weapons are sheathed.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Human characters in some cases fight unarmed with their fingers out like Khajiit.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|If you stand in front of an archer shooting a target, then their arrow will "vibrate".|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Sheathing your weapon while having a spell equipped to your left hand then unequipping the spell may result in your left hand displaying without a spell next time you unsheathe your weapon.|vn=1}}

===Other Bugs===
{{Bug|Sometimes animated doors that serve to move between cells can get stuck in their "open" state. Attempting to enter the door will close it, and you will not be moved to the new cell. The door will work normally afterwards.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Barred doors are able to be opened by activating the bar through the door. At the right angle the bar will be selectable through the door.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Enemies turned into ash piles may not clean up properly, leading them to accumulate in several areas.|OSP|1.9.26.0.8}}
{{Bug|Harvestable items (plants, garlic, pheasants, etc.) reset/respawn upon entering the cell (exterior or interior) after 10 days; but after save and reload of that cell, they revert to the state of the cell the previous time it was exited.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|When moving items to or from a container, the entire menu will often jump up one line while still having the item selected. This occurs seemingly at random. If this happens enough times, the selection will eventually go off the screen. This may sometimes be briefly corrected by moving out and back into that section. If that doesn't work, your best bet is to move the mouse off of the item horizontally then back. This bug occurs nearly 100% of the time so it's recommended that you proceed slowly and deliberately when placing items into a container to avoid accidentally removing the wrong items.|confirmed=1}}
** There is currently no fix or mod that corrects this while otherwise preserving the original inventory UI.
{{Bug|Wolves and dogs run up and down (in the vertical plane) on doors while attempting to pass through, as though ignoring gravity.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Characters hit by frost icicles and arrows may have it stuck on them permanently. This may be related to the function that leaves arrows on bodies hit with arrows; however, clearing arrows in inventory or unequipping apparel is not guaranteed to work as a solution.|vn=1}}
** Anything which forces your character model to completely rebuild will work to fix this, such as going into Beast Form as a werewolf.
** {{Pc22}} The console command <code>sexchange</code> twice will force a re-render.
{{Bug|[[Skyrim:Essential NPCs|Essential]] NPCs sometimes get stuck in the wounded state (down on one knee) and they may not recover back to normal. This can be fixed by any of the following:|vn=1}}
** fast-traveling elsewhere and back
** staggering them with a shield or weapon
** using [[Skyrim:Unrelenting_Force|Unrelenting Force]]
{{Bug|If you use a skill that changes the entire character's skin, such as invisibility or werewolf form, then the eye texture can glitch. This can be fixed by going to the main menu and then reloading a save.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|If you stand on the two halves of the split log in a mill, you may be sent flying a short distance when they disappear.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|{{Pc22}} Rarely, LMB and RMB cannot be used to perform actions. You must instead attack using other keys.|confirmed=1}}
** Changing the control settings for LMB or RMB to another key and back may fix this.
{{Bug|Sometimes using [[Skyrim:Activities|crafting stations]] doesn't work and instead just switches to third-person for a second, makes a clicking sound, but never actually allows the interaction. There are various fixes that may or may not work, including wielding/sheathing your weapon, changing equipped weapons/apparel, shouting, interacting with a station while it's in use by another, or any combination of these.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|{{pc22}} Using Alt+Tab to switch out of the game then back may result in the Windows mouse pointer remaining on-screen along with the Skyrim mouse pointer.|confirmed=1}}
**To avoid the extra pointer, when you first Alt+Tab back into Skyrim, move the Windows pointer to the bottom edge of the display and back up again. The game will not display at this point, but the mouse will disappear. Now, Alt+Tab all the way around to Skyrim again (or Alt+Tab then Alt+Shift+Tab). You will now be back in your game with no extra pointer. This same technique can be used to remove an existing extra pointer by Alt+Tabbing out and then back in as noted.
**Loading your in-game map before you Alt+Tab out will prevent the Windows pointer appearing when you Alt+Tab back in.
**Opening the console before tabbing out will also prevent this.
**Restarting the game will restore the mouse pointer to normal.
{{Bug|{{pc22}}Using Alt+Tab to switch out of the game then back may cause visual glitches such as texture flickering and incorrect shadow rendering. These glitches will often increase in severity, possibly resulting in a crash to desktop.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Your character's facial expression may get stuck as if in combat (locked teeth, furrowed brow, squinted eye). Followers can also get stuck in this state, and can be fixed by walking into them until they protest, or talking to them, where their expression will return to normal.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Items called '''<MISSING NAME>''' may appear on dead NPCs. It is recommended that you do not pick up these items, because when they are dropped, the game may crash.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|With Dawnguard, you may spontaneously become a vampire in addition to being a werewolf. This seems to occur during location changes and/or entering combat. It adds "necks bitten: 1" to stats and the vampire power and active effects. The werewolf ability remains unchanged. Serana's dialogue menu still shows that the vampire option is not taken.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|{{pc22}} While swimming, equipping from the hot keys favorite selection a melee weapon in one hand and a distance effect spell occasionally locks up the game. It seems one command, the melee weapon, is legal but the other isn't.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|{{Pc22}} Changes to the mappings of the R and F keys will not be visibly displayed in the favorites menu, though the changes will still apply.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Sometimes, regular items with a "quest item" status added to them (e.g. in Thieves Guild generic quests) won't lose this status, and if you already had a stack of them, then the entire stack will be unusable, undroppable, and unsellable. This can be a problem with [[Skyrim:Alchemy|Alchemy]] [[Skyrim:Ingredients|ingredients]], because the entire stack of ingredients will be unusable.|confirmed=1}}
**{{Pc22}} You can fix this through the console by entering <code>player.removeitem <item> <number></code> to remove all affected items and re-adding them with <code>player.additem <item> <number></code>. They will be normal items now.
** You can fix weapons that suffer from this glitch by placing them on a weapon rack.
** Another way to remove quest items is to go to jail and jailbreak. Open the prisoner belongings chest to receive your quest items but take nothing from the chest (the quest items are given to you automatically), then go to jail in a different hold. Jailbreak yet again but don't retrieve your belongings. Now go back to where you first went to jail and get your stuff.
{{Bug|[[Skyrim:Draugr|Draugr]] that are killed by a sneak attack while lying down or standing in a crevice can disappear through the floor. This can become a problem for certain quests which require you to obtain an object from the body. This is due to a physics bug when calculating where the body will fall. Occasionally, if you follow their fall, the body will be lootable.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Live fish can show up in places they do not belong, such as on footpaths hundreds of feet above a river.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Tips may rarely remain on screen indefinitely.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Killing an enemy with a missile, whether an arrow, bolt, or spell, may trigger a context-sensitive cinematic kill animation, only to result in the missile striking the target but failing to kill it, striking an intervening object, missing the target entirely, or sometimes not even being fired.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|Status messages that repeat will only be displayed every other time. This is most often seen when mining or when transmuting ores.|confirmed=1}}
{{Bug|After installing Dragonborn, some chairs may be glitched in some instances. People sitting on these chairs will sit through the chair, as if the chair's real form is lower than the displayed form. Standing up after this occurs may result in the appearance of standing inside the chair.|UDBP|2.0.4}}
{{Bug|After prolonged playing time you may notice that your character is no longer able to interact with world objects like chairs, beds, workbenches, etc.|vn=1}}
**{{Pc22}} This can be fixed by entering <code>player.tai</code> in the console. This will re-toggle your character's AI, allowing it to interact with objects again.
{{Bug|Items in the help menu may link to the wrong topics. The problem is caused by removing an add-on or mod that modified the help menu, like Dragonborn, and then saving your game. This corrupts the help menu for all games from that point forward, even if the mod is re-installed.|confirmed=1}}
**Starting a new game (or loading an older one if you've re-installed the relevant mod) will allow you to see the help topics correctly.
**{{Pc22}} For Dragonborn, use the console commands below to fix your help menu. As always, the "xx" needs to be replaced. See [[Skyrim:Form ID#xx and Add-Ons|the Form ID page]] for help. If you have any other mods that add to the help menu, they will be removed. You can add them back in by repeating the last command with the correct Message FormID.
::{{Pre|width=auto|<nowiki>RevertFormList 163
AddFormToFormList xx030ebe</nowiki>}}
{{Bug|If a sabre cat, snowy sabre cat, fox or a snow fox spawns at a respawn point in the wild it will effectively break that spawn point.|USKP|2.0.0}}
{{Bug|Some plants will never respawn if harvested.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Rarely, a mountain may fail to render all but the outer edges of itself, causing it to look invisible, and allowing you to see the ground inside. Due to this, you can walk, jump, and sprint through the mountain, but renders correctly once you're outside the mountain, and you can't re-enter it. This is particularly useful if there is a location on the other side of the mountain, but cannot get to it without walking/sprinting miles around it, or struggling to jump to the top, as you can walk completely through it with ease.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|Playing with a Khajiit character and then loading to another Khajiit character will cause the current character to have the same color tail as the previous Khajiit (i.e. white to orange).|vn=1}}

==Exploits==
===Armor Duplication Glitch===
{{Bug|Duplicating armor on mannequins:|USKP|1.2.4}}.
*# Place the armor that you want to duplicate on your mannequin.
*# Don't exit out of the equipping screen, then take all of your armor back.
*# Leave the area (loading screen) and come back. The set of armor you did the action with will now be duplicated on the mannequin.
** If done to an enchanted piece of armor (e.g. personally enchanted Ebony Armor of Destruction), it will be the unenchanted form. However, armor that was already enchanted when you found it (e.g. the Ebony Mail) will retain its enchantment.
**Tempering seems to be removed from the duplicate armor.
**This even duplicates [[Skyrim:Dragon Priest Masks|dragon priest masks]].
**It works on armor from add-ons

===Clipping===
* To clip through a wall, grab an object by holding down the "Take" button, press it flat against a wall, and walk continuously into the wall. While this will normally result in a short fall through a blue field followed by instant teleportation back to solid ground, doing this in specific areas can allow for the easy acquisition or theft of large amounts of items by looting the hidden chests that vendors keep their goods in. A reliable place to test this in is the Blue Palace, where there is a hall going off to the left of the curved staircase in the entry area. On the right side of the hall is a bench, and clipping through the wall right of the bench between it and the pillar will place you on a thin strip of ground with no walls and a light blue background. Balancing on the thin strip to the left and dropping down past the chest visible below will, if it's activated on the way down, allow the looting of Sybille Stentor's entire inventory and cash stock, minus what's on her person.

===Equipment===
* Quickloading a game does not correctly reset areas. This leads to a near-infinite number of exploits, such as being disarmed, quickloading, and then picking up the disarmed weapon to go with the one you had in the savegame, allowing you dual-wield unique/artifact items like Dawnbreaker.
{{Bug|Equipping the Ancient Shrouded Cowl will not appear on Khajiit and Argonian characters. You can then equip a second head armor which will appear. Both pieces are considered equipped. If both objects are enchanted, you will receive both effects.|USKP|1.2}}
* Similar to the Ancient Shrouded Cowl, the Falmer Helm also allows for equipping of a second headgear (enchanted or not) of types:
**Dragon Priest Masks: Can be equipped while the Falmer Helmet is equipped.
**Ebony Helmet: Can be dual-equipped with the Falmer helmet by equipping the Falmer Helmet, then equipping a Dragon Priest mask, then equipping the Ebony Helmet.
**Execution Hood: Same process as for the Ebony Helmet.
**Circlets: Can be dual-equipped with the Falmer Helmet by equipping the Falmer Helmet then equipping the circlet; this also works with the Penitus Oculatus Helmet.
{{USKP}}
{{Bug|The Gauldur Amulet allows equipping a second necklace, similar to the Ancient Shrouded Cowl and Falmer Helmet. Unlike the helmets, however, you can replace the Gauldur Amulet and still be able to wear two amulets. Save and reload the game while wearing two necklaces, then select a third necklace from inventory. The Gauldur Amulet will be replaced instead of the second necklace.|OSP|1.8}}
:Note: Using the Gauldur Amulet glitch will prevent the Ebony Helmet and Execution Hood from being usable with the Falmer Helmet.
* It is possible to wear multiple sets of armor at the same time, using these steps:
:Note: The Saarthal Amulet will allow two amulets to be worn at the same time and the mechanic for selecting is the same as two rings in Oblivion:
*# Submit to jail while wearing the first set of armor
*# Escape from jail and submit to jail again, this time wearing different armor.
*# Escape and submit to jail once more, except this time serve your sentence and you will be wearing two different sets of armor at the same time.
* By placing a stolen item onto a general NPC and then killing that NPC, the item will lose its stolen tag.
* Arrows of any type can be duplicated by pickpocketing a guard that shoots at a target dummy before they start shooting, and stealing the steel arrows, then leaving one arrow of the desired type in their inventory. Collect your arrows from the target dummy. A great spot for this is the Whiterun Great Porch. The guards appear at 8am and 6pm and shoot for four hours each. (This is also possible for Thieves Guild members in the Ragged Flagon - Cistern on the center target dummy; also, the members of the Thieves Guild stay up later than typical guards do.)

===Free House===
{{Bug|All purchasable [[Skyrim:Houses|houses]] and their upgrades can be acquired for free.|USKP|2.0.5}}
** You must have the gold in your inventory needed to purchase the houses legitimately in the first place. The exploit involves removing the gold from your inventory before it is automatically removed in the buying process. You need to talk to the Steward responsible for selling the house when they are near a container. When you have agreed to purchase the house, there is a small delay before the money is removed. During this delay, you can remove the gold from your inventory by placing it in a nearby container, retrieving it after you have been notified on-screen of the purchase. ''Container'' refers to any normal container, a dead body, or a [[Skyrim:Followers|follower]]. Remember to save before you start in case you are not quick enough.
** [[Skyrim:Breezehome|Breezehome]]—The best place is the map table up the stairs behind the throne. The Steward must pass the table to go downstairs and there is a chest under the table.
** [[Skyrim:Hjerim|Hjerim]]—At night [[Skyrim:Jorleif|Jorleif]] sleeps in the kitchen next to several sacks.
** [[Skyrim:Honeyside|Honeyside]]—There is a long chest by the wall to the left of the throne.
** [[Skyrim:Proudspire Manor|Proudspire Manor]]—There is a cupboard behind [[Skyrim:Falk Firebeard|Falk Firebeard]] that is within reach.
** [[Skyrim:Vlindrel Hall|Vlindrel Hall]]—There is a Dwarven chest to the right as you look face-to-face with the Steward in the throne room.
** Note 1: This does not work for purchasing plots of land with the Hearthfire add-on.
** Note 2: Normally, even if the container is "owned", your money is safe because you placed it there; it will not need to be stolen to regain it. However, if there was already gold in there to begin with that did not belong to you, your gold will be added to the same stack and you have no control over which gold you get, forcing you to steal.

===Gold===
{{Bug|There is a skeleton lying atop a stone altar on a mountainside slightly south of [[Skyrim:Sightless Pit|Sightless Pit]]. After killing it and its two guardians, each time you activate its corpse, one copy of ''[[Skyrim:The Doors of Oblivion|Doors to Oblivion]]'' will be added to its inventory, which you can then take and sell, limited only by your carrying capacity and patience. The body will never disappear.|USKP|1.0}}
* It is possible to learn a spell and keep the spell book, while producing infinite copies of the book to sell for a little more than you could a normal book (such as the one in the above glitch). First, place the book on a shelf. While still in the container menu of the bookshelf, read the book using the appropriate button. Exit the menu. The book will still be on the shelf. If you take the book, it will disappear off the shelf, but will reload if you enter the shelf's container menu and exit, producing a copy on each load. Note that this will make the book permanently stuck on the shelf, occupying a slot even though it is not present in the menu, and preventing you from placing as many books on the shelf.
{{Bug|While in a vendor trade screen, it is possible to sell their own items back to the vendor, giving you infinite gold.|OSP|1.2}}
*# As an example, you open the vendor's Apparel.
*# You then (without clicking) scroll down on the lefthand menu to highlight your own name (both with mouse and the larger font). If done correctly, when you hover over the items on the right, the price will have dropped to what you can sell them for (usually about 10-20% of their sell value).
*# At this point, if you click the items, you are selling their own inventory back to them.
*#If you have any of the items, they will be sold first, so pick something that you don't have.
{{Bug|The Dawnstar chest glitch is one of the fastest ways to get infinite gold.|USKP|1.0}}
*# Wait for the caravan to come to Dawnstar, then go to the merchant and save your game while looking at her.
*# Draw your weapon and attack the merchant; it is not necessary to kill her.
*# Reload your game, go into her inventory, but do not buy anything, now exit her inventory.
*# Go to the chest, it's by the mine next to the jarl's house, underground by some rocks and a tree to the left of the mine.
*# Finally, open the chest and get what you need, it should have at least 500 gold, to reload the chest, repeat the process.
*Another way to do this that does not involve attacking Ahkari goes:
*#Wait for the caravan to arrive.
*#Speak to Ahkari, and ask to see her items.
*#Exit dialogue and go and find the chest, in the same location as above.
*#Take anything you want, up to any value.
*#Wait 48 hours, change cell (fast-travel or enter a house) and then return.
*#Repeat.

===Infinitely Powerful Items===
{{Bug|First, obtain the most powerful [[Skyrim:Fortify Alchemy|Fortify Alchemy]] enchantments that you can get your hands on. The best will be custom enchantments when you have 100 in enchanting and all five "enchanter" perks and when you use a grand soul gem. For best results, exploit another glitch to wear an enchanted circlet and either a Falmer helmet or Penitus Oculatus helmet. Then you will need as many [[Skyrim:Fortify Restoration|Fortify Restoration]] ingredients as you can get your hands on. Find your way to an alchemy lab and do the following: (NOTE: There appears to be a problem with extremely high values in The Legendary Edition for Xbox One. Games crashes with values larger than approximately 10,000% when trying to use Enchanting potions made this way.)

:# Equip all your "Fortify Alchemy" apparel.
:# Make a Fortify Restoration potion.
:# Unequip your Fortify Alchemy apparel.
:# Drink the potion.
:# Repeat from step one.
:# To lock in your exponentially enhanced alchemical power, make an ultra-powered "Fortify Enchantment" potion, then use it to put an ultra-powered "Fortify Alchemy" enchantment on a piece of apparel. Now you can make ultra-potions at will without repeating the grind.
|USKP|1.3.0|nobullet=1}}
;Important Points To Remember
Once you have your alchemy fortified to a satisfactory level, you can then make super-powered potions at will. So long as you don't remove any of the enchanted apparel after the last consumed potion has expired, it will retain its boosted enchantment value until it is unequipped).

You can now create super-powered potions to exploit things that have no maximum value. It is better to focus purely on super-powered [[Skyrim:Fortify Enchanting|Fortify Enchanting]] potions to enchant items with permanent effects, as potions will always have a limited time of use. The limited time applies to the enchantment potions, too, so a number of them should be created at once.

Bear in mind that the potions will vastly decrease in magnitude once the fortify restoration potion has expired. You can boost the magnitude by using the restoration loop using two or more fortify restoration potions of varying degrees, then consuming the enchantment potion and using an arcane enchanter. This should be reserved only for boosting the most vital stats, as it takes time and resources better spent elsewhere.

Finally, time continues to pass when using an enchanter, so plan ahead and work quickly; typically, you will make two items easily within the time, and a third if you are quick on the renaming or do not rename at all. To make naming items easier on PS3 or Xbox, enter the enchanter beforehand and rename something multiple times to get the text into the system's predictive text box.

;Examples
The possibilities are endless; however, anything over a value of 2,147,483,647 (the maximum value for a 32 bit long integer variable) will register as a negative number and the glitch will not work. Below are a few examples of stats to boost:

* Before removing the alchemy enchanted armor, you may wish to make some [[Skyrim:Useful Potions#Expensive Potions|high value potions]]. You can sell these potions and, in one transaction, level Speech up to 100. If you make the skill legendary (with patch 1.9), you can then repeat this to gain easy levels and perk points. If you combine this with buying items off an alchemist and then selling the potion, you can gain the resources to keep repeating this loop potentially endlessly. You will need to avoid both over-leveling and the risk of gaining too many levels, whereupon you could lose any unspent perk points.

# Make items with high-powered [[Skyrim:Fortify Smithing|Fortify Smithing]] enchantments. There is no need to go overboard here, as there is a cap on the maximum damage resistance and a point at which a single strike from a weapon will insta-kill any enemy. The maximum rating needed is 642 (see [[Skyrim:Armor#Armor Cap|Armor Cap]]), and a damage rating of around 1,000 will suffice to kill most enemies, while 2,000 should be enough to kill any enemy in one strike even on Legendary settings.
# A [[Skyrim:Fortify Health|Fortify Health]] enchantment in the order of several million will guarantee that you never have to worry about any enemy ever again. Doing this though can cause the battle music to stop working so you won't have a warning that you are being attacked. A potion of ultimate healing will restore all of your health, no matter how high it is.
# In the same way you can fortify your magic and stamina pools (fortifying stamina will not increase your carry weight capacity). Fortifying your magic saves having to fortify each school of magic, freeing up several spaces for other enchantments and not limiting which schools you can use freely. At a high enough level, the stamina or magicka bars will stop showing up as you deplete them.
# A [[Skyrim:Fortify Carry Weight|Fortify Carry Weight]] enchantment will enable you to carry every bit of loot a dungeon contains, and not have to worry about the value/weight ratio ever again.
# A [[Skyrim:Fortify Barter|Fortify Barter]] enchantment will instantly max out your trade prices (the lowest buying percentage possible is 105% percent, while you can sell at 100%).
# Drinking an overpowered [[Skyrim:Fortify Restoration|Fortify Restoration]] potion prior to equipping an [[Skyrim:Amulet of Talos|Amulet of Talos]] will eliminate all cooldowns on [[Skyrim:Dragon Shouts|Dragon Shouts]]. The effect will be lost if the amulet is removed.
# If you have the 1.3 version of the Official Skyrim Patch installed, you can make a [[Skyrim:Fortify Sneak|Fortify Sneak]] enchantment strong enough to make you completely undetectable while sneaking, even right in front of a person in broad daylight.
# If you have the 1.3 version of the Official Skyrim Patch installed, a super-powered [[Skyrim:Fortify Lockpicking|Fortify Lockpicking]] enchantment can make the entire lock a "sweet spot," even for master-level locks, making every attempt at picking a lock succeed on the first try.

* Other enchantments to consider are [[Skyrim:Fortify Unarmed Damage|Fortify Unarmed Damage]] (making it a viable combat option), [[Skyrim:Resist Magic|Resist Magic]], and [[Skyrim:Resist Poison|Resist Poison]].

===Invisible Exploding Fireball Arrows===
{{Bug|Invisible arrows used during Japhet's Folly can be equipped by the player.|USKP|2.0.5}}
** These can only be acquired while on the quest [[Skyrim:Rise_in_the_East|Rise in the East]], but once you have them, they can be used for the rest of the game. Near the end of the quest, after exiting the tower on [[Skyrim:Japhet's_Folly|Japhet's Folly]], your character encounters a barrage of explosions. These are actually created by an unnamed invisible arrow, and it is possible to stockpile these arrows on your character by being hit with them. While they don't show up in your inventory, anytime you use the last arrow in a stack, the game will frequently equip these "Missing Name" arrows next. They act like an invisible arrow that shoots a firebolt, which explodes into a fireball when it lands. When you wish to stop using them, you can manually equip a stack of any normal arrow. To use them again, simply shoot the last one of any arrow type, and the Missing Name arrows will be equipped again. The number you can stockpile is only limited by the amount of time you want to spend hanging around at the end of the quest getting hit, since they are weightless.
** The arrows will be removed by the [[Skyrim:Diplomatic_Immunity|Diplomatic Immunity]] quest.

===Petty Soul Gem Trick===
* You can use a [[Skyrim:Followers|follower]] with a [[Skyrim:Soul_Trap (effect)|Soul Trap]] melee weapon to enchant any number of [[Skyrim:Petty_Soul_Gem|petty soul gems]] in one kill.
*# Get a follower who isn't an archer by default and give that character a weapon enchanted with Soul Trap or Fiery Soul Trap.
*# Acquire as many empty petty soul gems as you can. Trade them to your follower all at once.
*# Have your follower kill something with a petty [[Skyrim:Soul|soul]], such as a [[Skyrim:Wolf|wolf]]. When the wolf is killed, every single petty soul gem in your follower's inventory should become filled. Use this to make tons of soul gems to power level the [[Skyrim:Enchanting|Enchanting]] skill and make a fortune. (Note that this trick only works if none of the soul gems are stolen.)

===Skills===
* It is possible to level Enchanting by disenchanting any items you have enchanted yourself, even though you already know the enchantment used.
*# Have at least one item on which you do NOT yet know the enchantment that is able to be disenchanted.
*# Open the disenchanting menu.
*# Have the item you can learn an enchantment from selected so its image appears on the screen, but do NOT bring up the confirmation yet.
*# At very nearly the same time, attempt to disenchant while trying to move either up or down in the menu to the next item.
*# If done correctly, the item on which you know the enchantment should be shown with the confirmation screen active.
*# Select yes, and the item you selected shall be disenchanted, even though you already knew the enchantment. This will allow you to keep the item with an unknown enchantment while eliminating the others and gaining experience for disenchanting.
*# Repeat for as many items as you want to disenchant.
{{Bug|If you have the 1.9 version of the Official Skyrim patch installed, it is possible to reach level 252, the level necessary to unlock all skill perks, in about 20 minutes, using the Fortify Restoration Glitch. At sufficiently high levels of glitched Fortify Alchemy, ANY potion you create will garner you enough experience to immediately level Alchemy from 15 to 100. Boost Fortify Alchemy, and visit an apothecary. Buy out their inventory, and begin making potions (just two ingredients to each potion). Make Alchemy legendary after making each potion. When you exhaust your supply of ingredients, sell your super-potions, one at a time to the apothecary. The potions are so valuable that each sale will level Speech from 15 to 100 immediately. After each sale, make Speech legendary. Once you have made all sales, save the game, attack the merchant until it becomes hostile, and reload. The merchants stock will have respawned. Wash, rinse and repeat.|USKP|1.3.0}}
*If you have the [[Skyrim:Poisoned|Poisoned]] perk (in the [[Skyrim:Pickpocket|Pickpocket]] tree) activated, you can reverse-pickpocket a paralysis potion into the target's inventory, which the target will subsequently drink. The character will become stiff and fall to the ground for the duration of the effect, during which time you will be unable to interact with them (save for attacking of course). As the effect wears off and the character starts to get up, immediately pickpocket them again. Though the % probability displayed will be the same, the game will treat it as a corpse looting instead of a pickpocket, which means the actual success rate will be 100% for all items and all gold amounts and you won't run any risk of incurring a bounty. This is especially useful for training skills at higher levels and getting all your money back. NOTE: Because the game technically treats this exploit as a corpse-loot, you do not gain skill XP from using this exploit.
{{Bug|You can use the [[Skyrim:Oghma Infinium|Oghma Infinium]] to increase any or all skills by any amount, up to 100 each, thereby increasing your level to as high as 81:
*# Open a bookshelf in a home that you own.
*# Read the book while it is still in your inventory and select a path.
*# Place the book in the bookshelf and exit the menu.
*# Click on the book, without reading it, and add it back into your inventory.
*# Repeat from the second step above as many times as desired.
|OSP|1.9|it removes the boost from the second time of reading, but you can use this to keep a copy of the book}}
* Any [[Skyrim:Essential NPCs|essential NPC]] can be used to provide a source of infinite [[Skyrim:Combat|combat]] skill levels. This also applies to the [[Skyrim:Sneak|sneak]] skill since you can level up sneak by backstabbing. Many quest-specific followers will not attack you if you do this. You can sit there and beat them down repeatedly with your weapon or magic school of choice to raise its skill. The only thing to note is that you do not gain any experience while they are down, so you have to let them get back up.
** While you are letting an essential character get back up, there is a small window in which you can damage them which will cause their health to reset to full instead of having to regenerate from nothing if you do not interfere.
{{Bug|The Conjuration spell [[Skyrim:Soul Trap (spell)|Soul Trap]] can be cast repeatedly on a single corpse for infinite experience.|USKP|2.0.1}}
{{Bug|Using the vendor trade exploit, you can also continue to sell their own items back to them for 0 gold for Speech experience.|OSP}} {{vn|Please confirm which version. This is present on patch 1.9.31 for the Xbox.}}
{{Bug|For 100 Speech in about 30 minutes:
*# Go to Riften and enter the Black-Briar Meadery.
*# Speak to [[Skyrim:Ungrien|Ungrien]], the Bosmer at the counter, and ask him about [[Skyrim:Maven Black-Briar|Maven Black-Briar]], his boss (first option out of two, and then second option out of three).
*#He will say she is wonderful and feels guilty accepting payment, which is not his true belief.
*#If less than 25 Speech, bribe him until you reach 25. You will only need a small amount of gold (20-35 may be level dependent).
*#Once completed, just persuade him over and over.
|OSP|1.9.26}}
{{Bug|If you get two Standing Stone powers with the [[Skyrim:Aetherial Crown|Aetherial Crown]], uninstalling the [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]] add-on will make one permanent. Reinstalling Dawnguard will make you restart all added quests, but will allow you to get the Crown again. Repeat this for multiple Standing Stone bonuses.|vn=1}}
{{Bug| If you get the: "Summon Spectral Assassin" Power after completing the Dark Brotherhood Questline, you can level grind your one-handed, two-handed, and archery skills via killing the spectral assassin.}}
*There is a way to level Speech to 100 fairly quickly without the need to barter at all. To perform this exploit, you must be a member of the Dark Brotherhood. Reach the "Recipe for Disaster" quest, then go to Morthal and question Anton Virane. There will be an option to intimidate him; do it, then immediately exit the conversation, and speak to him immediately after exiting the conversation. The initial dialogue will still be there, and you can use the option to intimidate again and again by repeating this process, raising your Speech about every other time.

===Vampiric Werewolves===
{{Bug|It is possible to be both a vampire and a werewolf.|USKP|2.0.5}}
* There are a few problems associated with using this exploit. Notably, the [[Skyrim:Necromage_(perk)|Necromage]] perk does not affect your skills, as you are not undead (once you use Beastform after becoming a vampire). If you transform into a Vampire Lord, you will no longer be a werewolf.

:#Progress through the Companions questline until [[Skyrim:The Silver Hand|The Silver Hand]], but do not enter the Underforge.
:#Contract [[Skyrim:Sanguinare Vampiris|Sanguinare Vampiris]].
:#Return and enter the Underforge.
:#Drink the blood and become a werewolf.
:#Wait three days to complete the transformation into a vampire.

* Another method that requires [[Skyrim:Dawnguard|Dawnguard]]:

:#Go through the Dawnguard questline and become a vampire. Continue on the questline until you are sent to look for the elder scrolls with Serana.
:#Join the Companions and progress along their questline until you arrive in the Underforge to become a werewolf. Make sure Serana is with you.
:#Drink the blood of the beast and hit the button to transform into a Vampire Lord at the same time. You will turn into a werewolf and then a Vampire Lord immediately after that.
:#Revert back to human form and ask Serana to turn you into a vampire again to make the hybridization permanent.
*Note that while you are in werewolf form, you will lose your vampiric powers but retain its weaknesses.

===Other===
* {{Xbox22}} Tapping the sprint button once while moving forward, with a torch equipped and weapon sheathed, will allow you to sprint indefinitely. The stamina bar still decreases, but you will not stop sprinting when it is empty. In addition to this, if you start to move backwards while sprinting forwards, your character keeps the sprinting animation, instead of switching to the backwards animation. You can also stop for a short time and be able to resume sprinting without needing to press the button again. During this time you won't be able to strafe properly.
* {{Pc22}} If you quicksave while sprinting, and then (A) quickload and (B) release the sprint button at the same time, you can run at the same speed as sprinting, without using up stamina. In addition, you can jump even farther than normal, since you're running at sprinting speed while still being able to jump.
* Requires the Steady Hand perk 2/2. Walk through a door crouched and with a bow out. Once through, draw an arrow so that time slows down and then reload the auto-save. When the game reloads the whole world will be in slow motion as if you had the arrow drawn all of the time. Drawing another arrow will turn off the slow time, but it is possible to change weapon and use magic without restoring normal time. Menus appear to work at normal speed.
* While sneaking, changing active spells will briefly make you move at full speed rather than at sneak speed. Further, if you are unsheathing your weapon and drop into sneak, you will continue to move normal speed until the animation is finished. This is especially useful with [[Skyrim:Shadow Warrior|Shadow Warrior]], since you can pop in and out of stealth at will.
* It is possible to perform a silent roll without having the prerequisite perk. Simply enter Sneak mode with a bow drawn, hold the sprint button and sheathe your bow. You will perform a roll, sheathe, and then roll again while remaining in sneak mode. Drawing your bow again while holding down sprint will also give two rolls, allowing for swift, silent movement. Also, if you jump while in Sneak and hold the sprint button, you will roll forward.
* Swimming underwater may be done indefinitely without the use of any spell, potion, or item, and without having to be an Argonian. When swimming, push your character downward into the bed of whatever body of water you are in, but not so much that you cannot move forward. Swim like this long enough and you will encounter bits of ground that trigger the "gasp for breath" sound that normally occurs when surfacing after swimming underwater and a timer reset for holding one's breath.
* While you're telling your follower to do something, you can pick up objects far away from you.
* Sprinting while using Whirlwind Sprint shout (while at the same time releasing the sprint button) allows infinite sprinting.
{{Bug|{{Xbox22}} While in the Dark Brotherhood Sanctuary, sometimes approaching the fire in Astrid's room will cause a framerate drop, and the game will "lag" until you leave the room.|vn=1}}
{{Bug|{{Xbox22}} If you choose to go to jail and you have a follower following you when you choose the option to go to jail then when the loading screen appears it may freeze.|vn=1}}