UESPWiki - User Contributions [en]

User:Jesseguy1

2010-05-09T17:30:32Z

Jesseguy1:

I'm currently working on a 100% run through. This includes completing all quests, finding/exploring all locations, finding all skill books, getting all skills/ attributes level 100, getting all daedric artifacts, obtaining all (obtainable) spell effects, and possibly more. Probably never gonna finish it, but whatever, it's fun for now :)

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{| align="center"
|{{User Oblivion}}
|{{User ShiveringIsles}}
|{{User Frostcrag}}
|{{User MehrunesRazor}}
|-
|{{User XBox}}
|{{User AllAchievements}}
|{{User M'aiq}}
|{{User Birthsign}}
|-
|{{User Race|Altmer}}
|{{User Canadian}}
|{{User Male}}
|{{User UESPWikian|year=2010|month=1|day=29}}
|-
|{{User Right Handed}}
|{{User Atheist}}
|{{Userbox|#FFFFFF|#E0FFFF|[[Image:Stop hand.png|45px]]|info=This user copies (or copies with slight modifications) other people's userboxes.}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:OBCreature-mudcrab.jpg|45px]]|info=This user has fought [[Oblivion:Mudcrab|mudcrabs]] more fearsome than you!}}
|}

{| align="center"
== Skills ==
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:DestructionTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Destruction|Destruction]].}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:BladeTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Blade|Blade]].}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:HeavyArmorTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Heavy Armor|HeavyArmor]].}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:SneakTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Sneak|Sneak]].}}
|-
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:ConjurationTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Conjuration|Conjuration]].}}
|}

User:Jesseguy1

2010-02-08T22:08:27Z

Jesseguy1:

I'm currently working on a 100% run through. This includes completing all quests, finding/exploring all locations, finding all skill books, getting all skills/ attributes level 100, getting all daedric artifacts, obtaining all (obtainable) spell effects, and possibly more. Probably never gonna finish it, but whatever, it's fun for now :)

----

{| align="center"
|{{User Oblivion}}
|{{User ShiveringIsles}}
|{{User Frostcrag}}
|{{User MehrunesRazor}}
|-
|{{User XBox}}
|{{User AllAchievements}}
|{{User M'aiq}}
|{{User Birthsign}}
|-
|{{User Race|Altmer}}
|{{User Canadian}}
|{{User Male}}
|{{User UESPWikian|year=2010|month=1|day=29}}
|-
|{{User Right Handed}}
|{{User Atheist}}
|{{User Worships|Sheogorath|Shivering Isles}}
|{{Userbox|#FFFFFF|#E0FFFF|[[Image:Stop hand.png|45px]]|info=This user copies (or copies with slight modifications) other people's userboxes.}}
|-
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:OBCreature-mudcrab.jpg|45px]]|info=This user has fought [[Oblivion:Mudcrab|mudcrabs]] more fearsome than you!}}
|}

{| align="center"
== Skills ==
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:DestructionTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Destruction|Destruction]].}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:BladeTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Blade|Blade]].}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:HeavyArmorTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Heavy Armor|HeavyArmor]].}}
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:SneakTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Sneak|Sneak]].}}
|-
|{{Userbox|#CCCCFF|#EEEEFF|[[Image:ConjurationTitle.gif|30px]]|info=This user is a master of [[Oblivion:Conjuration|Conjuration]].}}
|}

Oblivion talk:Mehrunes' Razor Items

2010-02-08T02:23:56Z

Jesseguy1: /* What level Razor will I get if...? */

==Iron ore==
The page seems to state that Iron Ore is found throughout caves in Cyrodil, however, I believe that to be incorrect. I haven't opened up the editor or anything, but I haven't seen these anywhere but in the Sundercliff Watch (and attached areas). Can anyone confirm if that is the only location for them? {{unsigned|Scxe}}

:You're right. I checked in the Construction Set and Iron Ore doesn't even exist outside the plugin. And even the plugin only adds it to the [[Oblivion:Sundercliff Watch|Sundercliff Watch]] dungeon. Article has been updated. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 07:51, 15 February 2008 (EST)

== Level bug? ==
I swore I was level 20 when I went on this crawl, but someone I got the level 15 version of the bladeturn hood and maybe the razor itself. What happen? {{Unsigned|77BeTa77}}
: You need to read the first paragraph of the article. The items in this quest are not leveled in the usual sense... –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 17:48, 11 March 2008 (EDT)

Oh I see.
It doesn't make much sense, but whatever. [[User:77BeTa77|77BeTa77]]

It makes sense, but I believe it to be wrong (at least on the X-Box). I have tried repeatedly to sleep/level to change the levels of the gear the Assassin and Drothan wear and it does not seem to work. This is further evidenced by the fact that there are other situations, such as chests with leveled items that will continue to have the same items whether you reload your last save or not. For example, in one of the loot bags in Deepscorn Hollow it contains a random leveled piece of magic jewelry, if you try to reload the save before you opened it it will always contain the same piece of jewelry. However, if you were to start over before the loot bag ever appeared, say when you buy all of the upgrades for the house, then the item will change. I believe this to be the case as well with the various leveled items found in this Mehrune's Razor upgrade. If you want the items to change you need to reload the items before they ever existed. In this case that means deleting and reinstalling the plugin, then the items might change.

I could be wrong here, but as of right now everytime I have tried to reload a saved game prior to killing people or opening chests (sleep/level or not) I have ended up with the same results. Hopefully someone else will be able to clear this situation up further. -Guywhohasnotsignedupyet {{unsigned|68.20.17.227}}
: You're misunderstanding how leveled items work. The contents of a leveled list are decided when you load the relevant cell (except in rare cases like the official mod items), and not when you open the container. When they're fixed, they stay fixed until the cell respawns - three days later. You can test this pretty easily. Save outside a dungeon, run in and look at the contents of a chest. Reload, run in and look at the same chest. They will be different. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 13:41, 7 July 2008 (EDT)

::I appreciate you responding in a timely fashion. You are right, I was misunderstanding how they worked. I was aware that the cells reloaded 3 days later, however was unsure how that applied to the items you encountered on this particular plugin. If you wouldn't mind, could you explain to me (like I am a 2 year old) the most efficient way to check to get the leveled items you want from the assassin and Drothan? {{unsigned|68.20.17.227}}

:::The only way is already described [[Oblivion:Unearthing_Mehrunes_Razor_Items#Morag_Tong_Armor|on the article]], but the best way of all is to install the Unofficial Oblivion Patch (assuming you're on the PC) so you get the items appropriate to your level. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:07, 8 July 2008 (EDT)

::::Clearly I don't understand that method very well, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. When I sleep, the items don't change. When I level, the items don't change. The only time they do change is when I completely reload that area. So, I'm not understanding something and I believe the OP is in the same boat. So rather than link me back to something I didn't understand in the first place, please explain it to us so we understand it better. I am fully capable of looking up information and reading it - although not your intention I am sure, your casual "it's right here, so read it" attitude is rather unhelpful and insulting...

:::::I used my own, limited free time to point out the information to you in case you hadn't seen it (this happens quite often) and to suggest a patch that makes the problem moot if you're on the PC. If you find that insulting, you seriously need to grow a thicker skin. The information is quite clear and has been found to be accurate by several different people - including myself. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:32, 12 July 2008 (EDT)

So wait does that mean I have to reload, sleep, and then wait three days if I want the armor to change? Because I've done it the way it is described about 6 times now and its the same outcome, with just the cuirass being the right level and everything else 1 level below. Or maybe its because I am sleeping in the jail? Should I leave? I WANT THE RIGHT ARMOR SO BAD. Rpeh you seem to have the answers, please help me!!!!!111100305992-! - neitheroftheprevioustwo/threepeoplewhodiscussedthis.

::Alright, nevermind. I've solved my own problem. For any of you having trouble, make sure you're not sleeping in the jail. It won't work if you do that...or at least it didnt for me. You can go to the barracks next door, save right before you sleep, sleep (oh and I was also leveling each time I slept so I don't know if that makes a difference but I'm pretty sure it does), then save after you sleep (in case he kills you), then fight the guy. It'll change each time if you do that.

I have a question about this. If I want to get the best versions of all the unique items, I basically have to do the following:

1. Make a save, then level up. After that, kill the Assassin. If even one piece isn't the best version for my level, reload the save and try again.

2. Save before entering the upper level of the forge, then head in and kill the Forgemaster. If I don't get the best version of the Forgemaster's Amulet, reload the save and try again.

3. Make a save, then level up. After that, kill Frathen Drothan. If he doesn't give the best version of both items, reload and try again.

In other words, going through this dungeon, I have to get two Level Ups in order to get the best items for my level. Is this correct?[[User:Swk3000|Swk3000]] 15:32, 25 March 2009 (EDT)

==Claiming your own soul==
The player can be instantly killed by Daedric Banishing if you give Mehrunes Razor to an NPC and attack them. This is mostly useless since you will have to immediately reload your game. --[[User:Shalley303|Shalley303]] 19:21, 30 March 2008 (EDT)

it will also claim your soul if you attack something with a reflect ability(like scamps)

==Using a Beating Heart potion to give someone vampirism==
So I read that you can create a Porphyric Hemophilia potion from the Beating Heart with an Alchemy of 100...can you do this, then leave the potion around someone after removing all the potions around them? Will they drink it, come down with Porphyric Hemophilia, and become a vampire after 3 days? [[User:Deadzone|Deadzone]] 03:51, 21 May 2008 (EDT)
: I'm pretty sure the answer to that is "No". You can certainly create the potion but I don't believe NPCs will ever drink potions. The only time you see somebody doing so is with the residents of the Skooma den, and that's just an animation - the contents of their inventory never changes. Also, the factors that control the onset of vampirism are all related to the player rather than NPCs so I don't see any way for it to happen. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 04:07, 21 May 2008 (EDT)

==Daedric Banishing Chance==
Conflicting mathematics: "DeathChance = PlayerLuck * 0.05" and one of the three errors: "if your luck is 100, the chance is 6%" shouldn't it be 5%? If not then there is conflicting probabilities: "DeathChance is at least 1 and at most 10...with luck boosted to 200, the chance becomes 11%" Even if rounded off, 11% becomes 1 in 9.[[User:58.175.87.83|58.175.87.83]] 09:07, 28 September 2008 (EDT)
: No, you have misunderstood. Daedric Banishing succeeds if random(0,99) <= (Luck*0.05). That means if your luck is 100, the numbers 0, 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 (six numbers in total out of 100) will work. That is 6%. Boost luck to 200 and any number between 0 and 10 (inclusive) works (eleven numbers out of 100) - 11%. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 11:06, 28 September 2008 (EDT)

== Hoe, Rockpick Hoe, Heavy Rake ==

I been looking for the heavy rake but haven't found any. Are they level specific? I just started a new game and am still 1st level. Also, did anyone notice that the barrel where the hoe is found has the sound of flies buzzing. Not too strange that a dirty hoe would give a disease that puts a tickle in the britches. A terrible pun but funny.[[User:69.204.11.122|69.204.11.122]] 23:10, 5 March 2009 (EST)

== Beating Heart ==

I made 'Researches' to the 'Beating Heart'. Here is what came out:
If you duplicate the Heart and eat one, you get +4 Infamy. If you eat another you get also +4 Infamy. - Also you can get unlimited Infamy with the Hearts. I duplicated it with the Scrolls glitch.
--[[User:Conny293|Conny293]] 21:49, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:This works with any item you duplicate. It always retains the effects of the original, so all duplicates will retain the +4 Infamy you receive. --[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]([[User_talk:Elliot|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Elliot|C]]) 21:53, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::Yup, but maybe it's an special note worth ?--[[User:Conny293|Conny293]] 22:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:::Not really, since it is applicable to all items. --[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]([[User_talk:Elliot|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Elliot|C]]) 22:11, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::::Okay. Would this Work: Eating the Heart, get a Vampire, cure and eat another to become a Vampire again?--[[User:Conny293|Conny293]] 22:26, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::I haven't tried it, but I would say no. Since the cure is supposed to heal you forever by a script. --[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]([[User_talk:Elliot|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Elliot|C]]) 22:39, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::And what about the special cure that comes with the Vile Lair Plugin ?--[[User:Conny293|Conny293]] 22:43, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
:::::::I am not sure how it exactly behaves. The best way to find out is to try it. --[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]([[User_talk:Elliot|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Elliot|C]]) 22:48, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::Okay, if i got time i try it. I'll write here the result's.--[[User:Conny293|Conny293]] 22:52, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

:::::::::Testet - Results: If you cure yourself and eat another Heart you'll get infected BUT you do not become a Vampire again :(--[[User:Conny293|Conny293]] 20:49, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::That is how it is intended to work. --[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]([[User_talk:Elliot|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Elliot|C]]) 21:00, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

== coc testinghall ==

I've looked on UESP for an article explaining this popular glitch on the PC, with nothing coming up. After searching some videos people did of it, I noticed that, in the weapons warehouse of the testing hall, Mehrunes razor is marked as "Ceremonial dagger" and is unenchanted. Is this how they intended it?
:I think it was in the original Oblivion, just not used, like Amber and Madness equipment. Funnily enouh, I'm making new weapons with the dagger's meshes, etc. with just Oblivion loaded in the CS.-[[User:Volthawk|Volthawk]] 14:35, 3 September 2009 (UTC)
::I saw a mod somewhere where someone made a shortsword and longsword with the hilt looking just like the razor. Anyways, thanks {{unsigned|24.233.128.66}}

== artifact? ==
For curiosity's sake, can you turn this in to Martin as a Daedric Artifact? [[Special:Contributions/121.221.82.105|121.221.82.105]] 23:52, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

:No, there is no tie-in with that particular quest. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-<[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]> 12:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

== best possible stats ==

i tried sleep lvl up in the main cave but the red dude at the end (bladeturn hood and spell turn cloak) stats seems to fix upon entering sundercliff watch. can some1 help? {{unsigned|P90 user|2 December 2009}}

== Daedric Banishing question. ==

Do fortify luck enchantments affect the chance of this happening? Let's say I have 50 luck that equals a chance of 2.5 but I fortify it to 86 which equals a 4.6 chance, will this make the effect happen more often or will the fortified 86 luck act as 50 unfortified?
i think so, some1 said they got boost to 200 and it equates 10% instant K.O [[User:P90 user|P90 user]] 12:16, 29 December 2009 (UTC)

== What level Razor will I get if...? ==

I'm lvl 15 and I just got to mehrunes' razor. If i level up while in the last room (where the Razor is), will I get the level 16 version or will I just get the 15 version?
:I think that you will get the highest level razor the moment you activate the razor, so you will get the level 16 version.--[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|Arch-Mage Matt]] 02:18, 8 February 2010 (UTC)
::Thanks, you were right. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 02:23, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

Oblivion talk:Mehrunes' Razor Items

2010-02-08T01:44:10Z

Jesseguy1: /* What level Razor will I get if...? */ new section

Shivering:Reference Bug

2010-02-05T21:24:20Z

Jesseguy1: /* Overview */ Capitals/ punctuation fix

{{Trail}}
== Overview ==
This bug, first recognized around the beginning of April 2007 is now fixed by an [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patches.htm official patch] (1.2.0416) released on April 30 2007.

The bug (aka FormID Bug) results from the combination of two factors:
# Certain internal resources (FormIDs) used up in normal gameplay were not being recycled as they should be
# An error in the scripting for some NPCs in Shivering Isles caused those resources to be used up much more rapidly than expected
Problem number one is repaired by the official patch. The patch renders fixing problem number two unnecessary -- however, a user-produced patch is available for the PC that fixes this problem as well.

'''Notes:'''
* The primary symptom of the bug is the disappearance of dropped items when reloading a save. If this has occurred, those items are lost forever.
* Speed with which the bug hits is directly proportional to the average frame rate. Higher FPS means the bug hits sooner. As a result, the bug hits much sooner for high performance PCs (as early as 50 hours) than it does for Xbox users (typically 150 hours or more).
* The bug can also affect PC users with mods suffering from bugs similar to the SI NPCs. In fact the complaint about the bug (recognized in retrospect) appeared several months before Shivering Isles was released.

'''Advice''' 
Detailed advice is available below ([[#Advice_.28Xbox.29_2|Xbox]] or [[#Advice_.28PC.29_2|PC]]), but simple answer is:
* {{Pc22}} '''Get and install the [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patches.htm 1.2.0416 patch] immediately.'''
* {{Xbox22}} Fix is available on Xbox Live.

== Details ==
=== Symptoms ===
The most frequently reported symptom of this bug is that items disappear from the game. Newly created items (newly enchanted items, quest rewards, new spells, etc) and items dropped on the ground will at first appear to behave as usual. But after restarting Oblivion and loading your save game, the items will have vanished. Once the bug starts, all new items created from that point on in the game will disappear once the game is reloaded.

A variety of other odd occurrences have been attributed to this bug. Odd behavior of Imperial City merchants and other NPCs is common (i.e., merchants following you in stores as if you were a thief; [[Shivering:Dumag gro-Bonk|Dumag gro-Bonk]] and [[Shivering:Cutter|Cutter]] never making items because they tell you to "come back at a suitable time"). Bizarre statistics can appear on statistics pages (i.e., the "Horses owned" statistic may report that you have owned millions of horses). If the player has companion NPCs following them between world cells using fast travel, they may become duplicated. This can be observed when two or more body meshes can be seen on the NPC. Any summoned creatures in saved games will cease to be your allies after the game is reloaded.

Much more severe problems are also possible as the bug progresses. The bug is overwriting memory used to store a range of game information. What exactly gets overwritten and what happens as a result will vary from player to player, and could potentially not become apparent until later. In the worst cases, save games has been corrupted to the point that they could no longer be loaded. Also, some players have had all of their character's information be completely erased, so that the character reverts to being a level 1 imperial male with almost no possessions or skills.

=== Cause ===
The basis of the bug is that an internal "space" of identification numbers (also called FormIDs) for objects created in the game (e.g., a dropped arrow, a new creature, etc.) becomes exhausted. Master and Plugin files (*.esm and *.esp file extensions) each get their own hexidecimal number assigned during loading (00 to FE), and all components of those masters and plugins have that number as a prefix to longer hex numbers (such as the FormID codes used for items with the Additem console cheats and such; the FormID series 00 is assigned to the Oblivion.esm and all objects within start with the formID "00"). The last series, FF, is used for objects created from in-game additions (creature spawn points, dropped objects, etc). Once these numbers are exhausted, newly created objects are stored in memory reserved for other game information. The visible result is that those new objects do not get copied into your save file the next time you save (and therefore vanish when you load the save game). The less visible result is that other game information is corrupted when the object information is stored in the wrong memory area, leading to any number of unexpected consequences.

The fundamental problem, namely only having a limited number of FormIDs for new objects, is a bug that has been present in Oblivion since it was first released. However, before the release of Shivering Isles it would have taken more than 1000 hours of playing with a single character to run out of FormIDs, and therefore was unlikely to ever affect most players.

With Shivering Isles, six of the new NPCs have scripts that use up FormIDs at an extremely fast rate. Several FormID are used up per frame of gameplay (hence higher FPS systems get hit sooner). The unofficial [[#FormID Fixer Patch|FormID Fixer Patch]] works by altering the scripts for these NPCs so that they no longer use up ID numbers so quickly.

In retrospect, it is recognized that some user mods have introduced similar scripts, that use up ID numbers at a fast rate (although not as rapid as the Shivering Isles scripts). Therefore, problems reported in the past for certain user mods have the same cause.

Although these scripts have aggravated the situation, the real problem is with how the game stores identification numbers. The game is supposed to actually recycle ID numbers, in which case the available storage is more than sufficient for any length of gameplay, no matter how quickly various scripts choose to use ID numbers. Bethesda's [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patchnotes12.htm Official Patch] fixes the problem by making the recycling system work as originally intended.

== Xbox ==
{{Xbox22}} The patch to resolve this issue has been released on Xbox Live

== PC ==
{{Pc22}} An official [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patchnotes12.htm engine patch] is available and should be installed immediately. An unofficial [[#FormID Fixer Patch|Shivering Isles patch]] is also available. The unofficial SI patch is not required if the the official engine patch installed, but may have some performance benefits.

=== Advice (PC) ===
{{Pc22}} '''If you have Shivering Isles installed on your PC, you should get and install the [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patchnotes12.htm Official Patch]. NOTE: The official patch from Bethesda is NOT compatible with the version of SI purchased from Direct2Drive.com '''

There is also an [[#FormID Fixer Patch|unofficial patch mod]] directed at the fixing the problematic NPCs in Shivering Isles. Since this will greatly delay the onset of the formid bug, it means that the unofficial patch can to some degree be used in place of the official patch. However, since the official patch solves the problem permananently, and solves it for non-SI mods as well as for SI mods, it is again strongly recommended that players get and install the official patch. Note: It is possible to use both official engine patch ''and'' the unofficial patch mod, and there ''may'' be a performance benefit to doing so. (This has not been verified however.)

Note that if you have already suffered consequences of the bug, neither official nor unofficial patches will repair those problems. Lost items will still be lost, and it's possible that other odd affects may appear. Safest course would be to roll back to save game from before when the bug hit.

===Beta Patch===
{{Pc22}} Bethesda previously released two [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patchnotes12.htm beta patches], available for [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patches.htm download]. The beta patches were only available for PC (beta patches are not released on Xbox live). As explained on the [[Oblivion:Patch#Version 1.2.0410 (Beta)|Patch]] page, installation of this patch could require first uninstalling and reinstalling all of Oblivion.

Tests of the patch indicated that it worked in much the same way as the current [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patchnotes12.htm Official Patch], that is to say it fixed the root cause of the bug by modifying the game's executable. The identifiers used to keep track of temporary objects are now continously recycled. Instead of running out of space if 17,000,000 objects have ever been created, the game will now only run out of space if 17,000,000 temporary objects are currently in existence, which should never happen. This means that:
* There is no longer an artificial limit on the total length of time you can spend playing the game (at least not because of this issue).
* Even if you have played 150+ hours of Shivering Isles, once you install the patch you can continue to play without worrying that you might run out of space.
* If your game had already hit the bug, this patch will essentially fix all of your save games without needing to use any repair tools. You will no longer have problems with items disappearing. However, anything that was previously lost is gone, and cannot be recovered.
* Other, similar problems reported to occur when using some unofficial mods are also fixed.

The script that was aggravating this root problem has not been modified by the patch. However, with the patch that script will no longer cause any problems.

'''Update:''' If you had previously installed the [[Oblivion:Patch#Version 1.2.0410 (Beta)|first beta patch]] it is strongly recommended that you update to the the [[Oblivion:Patch#Version 1.2.0416 (Beta)|second beta patch]]. The Version 1.2.0416 patch has remedied several issues reported with the first beta patch, such as crashes, a problem with enchanting items, and (as of yet) the character reset problem.

With the first beta patch (but not the second), there were several reports of entire save games' characters being reset after the beta patch was installed. All quests, map locations, and items were wiped, all stats reset, and even the name changed to the default "Bendu Olo". There have also been numerous reports of crashing and other problems occuring only after this patch was installed. If you wish to download this beta patch now, it is recommended that you create a backup of your saves. This is a beta patch only, which means it has not been fully tested and thus overlooked errors may occur with your game with this patch installed. This is obviously now irrelevant, as an [http://www.elderscrolls.com/downloads/updates_patchnotes12.htm Official Patch] has now been released.

===FormID Fixer Patch===
{{Pc22}} An unofficial patch mod by Dateranoth is available for the PC that fixes the formid usage problems of the problematic NPCs in Shivering Isles. While the official patch renders this mod unnecessary, players concerned about formid usage may wish to use it anyway (it should not hurt the game, and possibly might help performance). It can be safely removed at any time.

The patch mod can be found at:
* [http://tessource.net/files/file.php?id=10278 Tes Source]
* [http://rapidshare.com/files/24979865/FormIDReferenceBugFix.esp Rapidshare]
* [http://theelderscrolls.info/?go=dlfile&fileid=163 The Elder Scrolls.info]
* [http://files-upload.com/156969/FormIDReferenceBugFix.esp.html Files-upload]
* [http://www.worldofelderscrolls.de/?go=dlfile&fileid=75 World of ElderScrolls.de]

To use the patch: download it, and copy it to your Oblivion\Data directory. Then start the Oblivion Launcher, click on Data Files and enabled the new mod (i.e., put a check next to its name).

The patch may not immediately correct the problem if you are in the general area of New Sheoth. Leave the Shivering Isles as soon as possible to reset the bugged NPCs if the RefIDs of dropped objects are still increasing at a rate of more than 10 per minute.

The changes in this stand-alone fix are also present in the [[Tes4Mod:Unofficial_Oblivion_Patch#Unofficial_Shivering_Isles_Patch|Unofficial Shivering Isles Patch]] mod, which also fixes numerous other bugs noted on the UESP. If you are using the USIP you don't need the stand-alone fix.

===Repair===
{{Pc22}} For users who are already suffering from the bug, or for whom the bug impact is imminent (formid starts with FFD or FFE), installation of the official patch fixes the problem (but does not recover lost items).

Previously, two user tools (Wrye Bash and zBobG's ID Bug Fix Tool) provided unofficial repair of the problem. These should no longer be used since the official patch now does a better job.

===Third Party Mods===
{{Pc22}} Third party mods can also cause the reference bug. Modders who create complex mods should begin testing to ensure that their mods don't create more references than is necessary. With the beta patch, this is no longer an issue, because the root problem that had been limiting the available references has been fixed.

== Diagnosis ==
=== Terminal Diagnosis ===
{{Xbox22}}{{Pc22}} If you drop an object from inventory on the ground, save, quit, reload and it's not there, that indicates that the rollover has already occurred. This is the way the problem first showed up on the PC, and will also occur on Xbox 360. See also [[#Testing/Repair|Xbox 360 testing/repair]] for more detailed tests that can be done (in particular on Xbox 360) to confirm that a save game has the bug.

===Early Diagnosis===
{{Xbox22}}{{Pc22}} If you have SI, your available playing time, until the bug appears and starts to corrupt your game, is limited. On the PC, you can determine how close you are to having the bug appear.

You can see how far along your are by dropping an arrow or ingredient from your inventory, then entering the console and clicking on the object. The object's FormID will display at the top of the screen, like so: "Iron Arrow" FF6cb394. '''Be sure that the name appears!''' If it doesn't you've probably just clicked on the ground or some other object -- try clicking in a different place, and you'll get worried for the wrong reason.

The FormID number ''should'' begin with FF -- that's the modindex, it means the object belongs to the savegame. The following 6 (hex) digits are the objectindex. Ordinarily, this number increases whenever Oblivion needs to create a new "in world" object -- e.g., because you shoot an arrow, drop some item, or a creature is spawned. However, due to scripts causing an NPC pathing loop, 6 of these are used per frame. When the number hits FFFFFF, it tries to roll over, but instead the whole number (modindex+objectindex) rolls over, resulting in newly created objects with modindex "00" (instead of FF).

I.e., if you use the console to check to see if you have the bug and the modindex is already "00" your game has already been affected and continued play runs the risk of lost items or worse. If the number is very high, e.g. with object index > C00000, then you are yet to be affected, but your savegame has limited playlife left in it. How much life depends on how much higher the number is, performance of your system and whether you have any other mods with similar problems. Repair of affected and soon to be affected saves is possible using the instructions listed above.

With the beta patch, FormIDs no longer work in this way. The game now searches starting at object index 000000 and uses the first available index. Whenever a formid is no longer in use, it is returned to the pool of available indices. Therefore, a high object index no longer indicates that you limited playtime left, as long as you install the beta patch as soon as possible.

[http://wryemusings.com/ Wrye Bash] (v 0.70 or higher) users can also check the formid by right clicking on the save game in the Save tab and selecting the "Statistics" command. The next formid will display near the top of the report under "FBomb Counter".

Wrye Bash can also be used to check Xbox 360 savegames if they are first [[Oblivion:Xbox 360#Transferring_Game_Saves|transferred to the PC]].

===Remaining Playtime===
{{Xbox22}}{{Pc22}} The following table will let you estimate how many hours of playtime you have before the bug will impact your savegame. These are the number of hours you can spend playing with a '''single''' character, '''after''' Shivering Isles has been installed and '''without''' the [[#Beta Patch|beta patch]].

These estimates are made assuming that the bug generates 6 references per frame, and that you spend only about one third of your playing time in normal play mode. Tests have shown that whenever the game is in normal play mode (i.e., not in a menu or otherwise paused), the game always generates 6 references per frame. However, most players do not spend the majority of their time in normal play mode, and also framerates will decrease when a lot of action (i.e., fighting) is occuring. From the playtimes reported by multiple players, it seems that most players spend less than half of their time (probably only one-quarter to one-third of their time) in normal play mode. If you spend a lot of time in menus (reading books, creating spells, checking the map, etc) it will take longer than estimated, because references are not generated while you are in menu mode.

{| class=wikitable style="text-align:center"
! Formid from Drop Test !! Playing at 30 FPS (Xbox) !! Playing at 40 FPS !! Playing at 50 FPS !! Playing at 60 FPS
|-
|FF0????? || 145.6 || 109.2 || 87.4 || 72.8
|-
|FF1????? || 135.9 || 101.9 || 81.6 || 68.0
|-
|FF2????? || 126.2 || 94.7 || 75.7 || 63.1
|-
|FF3????? || 116.5 || 87.4 || 69.9 || 58.3
|-
|FF4????? || 106.8 || 80.1 || 64.1 || 53.4
|-
|FF5????? || 97.1 || 72.8 || 58.3 || 48.5
|-
|FF6????? || 87.4 || 65.5 || 52.4 || 43.7
|-
|FF7????? || 77.7 || 58.3 || 46.6 || 38.8
|-
|FF8????? || 68.0 || 51.0 || 40.8 || 34.0
|-
|FF9????? || 58.3 || 43.7 || 35.0 || 29.1
|-
|FFA????? || 48.5 || 36.4 || 29.1 || 24.3
|-
|FFB????? || 38.8 || 29.1 || 23.3 || 19.4
|-
|FFC????? || 29.1 || 21.8 || 17.5 || 14.6
|-
|FFD????? || 19.4 || 14.6 || 11.7 || 9.7
|-
|FFE????? || 9.7 || 7.3 || 5.8 || 4.9
|-
|}

Again, current evidence is that the problem can be repaired (on the PC) by using Wrye Bash. However, it is better to apply the patch early and avoid the problem altogether. If Bash is used, it should be used while the savegame is in the FFC to FFE range. (Not earlier, because it's not yet known for sure that Bash's approach is safe, and not later because it's better to make the fix before the counter rolls over and the bug takes effect so that there is no risk of important NPCs or Items disappearing.

Oblivion talk:Sneak

2010-02-05T03:47:00Z

Jesseguy1: /* How To Modify The Sneak Damage Multiplier In The Oblivion.ini? */

==SI Units==
Do SI monsters all have incredibly high sneak? I find it almost impossible to traverse the SI landscape without being detected by every Gnarl, Grummite and Elytra. 100 sneak BTW. Also, this still seems to occur in dungeon darknessl; trying to sneak on a grummite from behind ALWAYS fails, which hurts my thief character's chance of survival a lot.

==Uncategorized Talk==
I removed the tip about using pickpocket to raise the sneak skill. Breaking into houses to sneak (trespassing bounty if caught) and pickpocketing are just unnecessary and risky if all you want to do is raise the skill. The act of opening the pickpocket window, even if you do not end up stealing anything is tantamount to the theft itself. Getting caught is instant deguildment if you practice it on your guildmates (Fighters/Mages/Dark Brotherhood). As a tip, the best way to raise the skill is to just sneak aroud sleeping guards and guildmates. You don't have to be doing anything illegal to get raise sneak skill.

The article mentions sneak attack bonuses of 4/2 and 6/3, but I've definitely seen 8/4 at high sneak levels. Anyone else corrborate this? --[[User:McC|McC]] 04:06, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

:Never seen a sneak bonus of 8/4, even with a sneak skill level of 100. [[User:Th232|Th232]] 22:43, 27 January 2007 (EST)

::Are you running any mods by any chance? It's quite possible to change this sort of thing with mods. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 22:48, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Another good sneak target for training is a Fighters Guild porter. They stay awake 24 hours a day, they don't move around and there's one in each city. Enter the guild, let the porter follow you to a dark corner and start walking.

someone removed my imperial palace tip. why? [[User:Irishguy42|Irishguy42]] 16:36, 27 January 2007 (EST)
:I assume you mean the tip that I deleted in [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion%3ASneak&diff=83116&oldid=83027 this edit]. There's a [[Oblivion:Sneak#Skill Increases|section]] earlier in the page devoted to discussing how to increase sneak, and the points mentioned in your tip are already covered there or elsewhere. The Imperial Palace is just one of hundreds of places where you can "Sneak behind walls that hide you from nearby people or creatures." As the page states "Guardsmen in towns are good targets"; there's nothing I know of that makes the Imperial Palace guards better than any of fifty other locations where a guard is always standing. Using autorun is already described. Much more detailed information about how long it will take to train sneak is provided at [[Oblivion:Increasing Skills|Increasing Skills]]; that page also includes the necessary information on how to take into account whether sneak is a major or specialization skill.
:Although the Imperial Palace may be your favorite spot to train sneak, it's not possible to provide a list of every person's favorites; the purpose is to provide information to readers in the most useful possible way. Therefore notes that repeat information already provided on the same page tend to get deleted. Especially when the notes provide first-person accounts (i.e., that you went to watch an episode of 24) that are not consistent with the site's [[UESPWiki:Style Guide|style guidelines]].
:Please don't take this to mean that you shouldn't continue to contribute to the site. If you feel like information is missing from a page, please add it. And if you don't understand why a change was made, you should definitely ask (checking the page's edit history to see what reason was given for the change can also be worthwhile). I hope my answer helped you to understand my reasons :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:51, 27 January 2007 (EST)
::Right...okay, didn't see that. I will keep this in mind. (im kinda new to editing wiki's). [[User:Irishguy42|Irishguy42]] 10:25, 28 January 2007 (EST)

Is it possible to give your followers items through pickpocketing? [[User:Acheeze|Acheeze]] 22:30, 7 July 2007 (EDT)
:Only if they are 0 weight items. So, generally you will need to use the [[Oblivion:Glitches#Permanent_Bound_Items|permanent bound items glitch]] if you wish to give them armour or weapons. --[[User:Saruuk|Saruuk]] 00:04, 8 July 2007 (EDT)
::Is there a guaranteed way to make them equip them? [[User:Acheeze|Acheeze]] 02:05, 8 July 2007 (EDT)
::: Hit them. Really, really hard. Well no, not that hard... Get into a fight with them, and they should equip the best armour and weapons in their inventory. Then yield to them. --[[User:Saruuk|Saruuk]] 03:29, 8 July 2007 (EDT)
::A full list of zero weight items can be found [[:Category:Oblivion-Items-Zero_Weight|here]]. --[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]][[User_Talk:Rpeh|Talk]] 14:25, 8 July 2007 (EDT)

Did anyone else notice how much more vulnerable you are if you stay stealthed while in combat? If the lighting and distance from other NPC's is favorable you can still avoid detection from others, keeping it a one on one fight, but you won't fight in top form. All attacks will be slow sneaking power attacks, and there seems to be a huge penalty to blocking and armor defense; all hits taken seem to deal heavier damage and power attacks frequently succeed in their effects.
:I don't know about taking damage, but you do attack (considerably) slower while in sneak mode. Makes sense really, considering that you're crouching down and crawling about on yours knees; not really a prime stance to adopt in good ol' fashioned fisticuffs fight. --[[User:Saruuk|Saruuk]] 17:44, 9 August 2007 (EDT)

I just bought a house in Leyawiin, and noticed that I can pickpocket Martin and Jauffre to no end, right in front of them, and they never catch me when we're inside the house. Is this intentional?
::lol everyone forgot about the best way to train sneak, the stalker you get for beating the arena faction quests

== Remaining undetected ==

Maybe someone else can confirm this; hugging a wall seems to make a huge difference, in your chance of detection, even moreso than light levels. So many times I've been caught stepping around a corner or out of a corridor into the light, then reloaded and came through at about the same pace, holding close to a wall, and walked within 10 degrees of line of sight without being detected, in the same lighting conditions.

== Multiple sneak attack ==

Yes, it is possible. However, it's not in the way the article describes. Multiple sneak attack is done when your enemy still haven't detect you after the first hit. This is possible when you either have high chameleon or high sneak/agility. Without chameleon, you'll need at least the journeyman skill perk to do this. [[User:75.15.147.205|75.15.147.205]] 06:36, 20 August 2007 (EDT)

:It's very easy, if you remain directly behind the target, and keep attacking while they're still reacting to your previous attack. Lighting conditions are at least as important as sneak and chameleon, and the more perceptive your target, the higher you need some combination of the three. If sneak and chameleon are high enough, you don't even have to worry about the target's line of sight to do this successfully. [[User:97.81.107.242|97.81.107.242]] 07:28, 17 September 2007 (EDT)

::Indeed. The article is wrong: being directly behind an enemy certainly makes it ''easier'', but is by no means a requirement. If you have a high enough relative Sneak skill (and good light etc) you can make multiple SA's even while standing directly in ''front'' of the target, and with a suitable distraction (i.e. a Summon) and a bit of luck you can happily position yourself slightly to the side and land as many as you "need". You can even get the bonus while the eye is fully "lit" - apparently all that matters is that you're not the enemy's focused target.
::(In combat, the AI gets a 50 point "detection bonus", meaning they're significantly more likely to spot you then even if they couldn't before you started fighting, which is why you can't (normally) just make an SA and then HIPS and do it again).

::Lighting conditions are far more important than Sneak ''if'' you're in someone's line of sight: even with a 90 point "advantage" you'll almost certainly be spotted once you get within 30 feet of them if there's as much as a candle nearby. For situations like that you definitely need Chameleon, and the more the better. {{unsigned|Aliana|16:23, 12 October 2008}}

== Stealing Oddity ==

Okay, in two different games I've been able to do this, and the second one was a completely fresh install, albeit with all the same patches: One of the first quests I did was the Thoronir quest, and naturally, I stole the Debaser off of Agarmir before going to the tomb. It shows up in my inventory as stolen. Later, when I got back to the shops, I put it down and picked it back up again. It's no longer marked as stolen, and I can sell it just fine. Several other early-game items also exhibit the same behaviour. When I try to steal something now, however, then drop it and pick it back up, it remains stolen. Any ideas?

I do have several mods installed, but even with all of them disabled, I can still drop and pick up the Debaser and other items, and they will be "unstolen". Here's the patch/mod list, in case it's something that somehow affects the item regardless of the presence of the mod:
*Shivering Isles
*Official Patch 1.2.0416
*All 8 official plug-ins
*Baldurdash Unofficial Patch 2.2
*Baldurdash Unofficial Mods Patch v8
*Baldurdash Shivering Isles Patch 1.0
*Haldur's Alternate Skeleton Key
*Kobu's Character Advancement System 2.4.1
*No More How Many Prompts
*No More Annoying Messages Lite v1.2
*Pitcher Plant Harvestable v1.1
--[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] 15:03, 15 October 2007 (EDT)

== Artificial Stats ==
Does anyone know if using magic/enchanted items to raise Sneak and/or Agility makes any difference and in what? --[[User:Mqduck|Mqduck]] 18:53, 15 October 2007 (EDT)
:As far as I know, raising Sneak reduces your chances of getting seen and increases pickpocketing success rate. It might even give you the bonuses if you raise it past a level (Journeyman, Expert) however on that I am less sure. Increasing your agility will increase the amount of damage you do with bows and reduce chances of getting knocked down in combat. There may be other benefits, but these are the only ones I am aware of. --[[User:Vesna|Vesna]] 18:17, 17 October 2007
::As Vesna said, using any type of [[Oblivion:Fortify Skill|Fortify Sneak]] effect (this includes spells, enchantments, potions, etc.) will increase your sneak and pickpocket success, but only up to sneak=100. Increasing sneak skill past 100 will have no further benefit. Also, Fortify Sneak will '''not''' give you any of the mastery perks (i.e., fortifying sneak from 20 to 30 will not increase the sneak damage multipliers). The article on [[Oblivion:Fortify Skill|Fortify Skill]] provides more details on how this effect works.
::In addition to the benefits mentioned by Vesna, [[Oblivion:Fortify Agility|Fortify Agility]] will also increase your fatigue, increase sneak success, and make the lockpicking game easier. As detailed on the [[Oblivion:Agility|Agility]] article, some of these benefits also apply for increases in Agility past 100. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 03:24, 20 October 2007 (EDT)

==Poison damage==
Who has tested that the sneak attack multiplier does not apply to poisons and enchantments? Previously there were many mentions on this wiki saying exactly the opposite, and my own experience pre-patch seemed to bear this out. I did not do rigorous tests but "boss" enemies would hardly take three steps before dying after hit by a sneaky arrow with a strong poison. Is there perhaps a difference before and after the official patch? --Potion Addict
:I did a lot of testing of this, although I was not the first persosn to report it. I checked it by watching the enemy health stats in the console while doing '''many''' combinations of enchanted items, poison, no sneak, sneaking with dagger, and sneaking with bow. So I'd say the tests were pretty rigorous. I'm pretty sure the tests were with the 1.1.511 patch installed, but not the 1.2 patch, although I didn't make explicit notes of the patch version. It's not something that's mentioned in any of the [[Oblivion:Patch|Patch]] notes, so in the absence of someone finding clear evidence that the patch changed this behaviour I don't think it's appropriate to speculate that it changed. Especially just based on it previously being stated multiple times on the wiki: there are many cases of one person mistakenly stating something, everyone assuming that it's true, and therefore copying the information elsewhere. In this particular case, I know I contributed to propagating the false information by adding it to a few pages before finally taking the time to test it. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 13:17, 13 November 2007 (EST)
::Thank you. I never patched the game at all but you're right that it should have been mentioned someplace if they chose to change that. Must have just been my imagination after reading the wiki (and high alchemy skill) making me think stealthy poisons were ultimate weapons. I thought it was really cool how powerful a backstab poison could have been, but it never really made any sense. Guess this means "weakness to poison" is the answer for quicker kills. ;-) --[[User:Nocturnal|Potion Addict]]
I've noticed poisons to be really effective as well (more than I'd expect). I haven't tested this, but it seems like they're not affected by the difficulty slider. You can kill the goblins in the starting dungeon with a single poison on the highest difficulty, for example.
--[[Special:Contributions/75.163.142.34|75.163.142.34]] 05:02, 9 November 2009 (UTC) Um the Muse

== Bound Boots/Cloak ==

Because the weight of your boots is important for sneaking, wouldn't a pair of bound boots be perfect for sneaking? Also, some cloaks cover everything but the head (arena raiments and such) would these be "really heavy boots"

Yes, perma-bound armor is great for a lot of things, being Daedric quality and weightless, but Sneak is so easy and useful to raise to Journeyman level you may as well do it, unless you're RPing.

==Removing Stolen Tag on Items==
Not really sure where to ask this but I'll ask it here. I'm collecting Guard Uniforms and I had to steal some so now they've got the Stolen Tag. I've read of ways to get rid of it, but as of now, I've forgotten where those methods were written down. Any help? [[User:ImmortalKaine|ImmortalKaine]] 00:04, 15 January 2008 (EST)
:Fence them. Sell them to a Thieves Guild fence and buy them back. You may lose a bit of money but you'll clear the stolen flag. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 02:30, 15 January 2008 (EST)

== What Is The Limit For Leveling In Sneak ==

Im trying to figure this out, but no one has the answer - hopefully some of you might. Im level 104ish in sneak - when do I click over to master? I thought that 100 was master, but I was wrong :( thanks!
~Gizimomo
:You're not wrong - 100 is master level. If you have something fortifying your sneak skill, you need to remember to subtract that to find your current base skill level. Check on the active effects tab to see if there's anything boosting your skills. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 12:40, 12 February 2008 (EST)

== Reverse Pickpocketing murder ==

if you were to enchant a zero weight armor with somthing like "10pts fire damage for 10 seconds and reverse pickpocket someone with it and they died would you get charged with murder?--[[User:Marleysexton|Marleysexton]] 15:38, 20 February 2008 (EST)
: No. Planting a cursed item on someone is a recognised assassination technique. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 15:40, 20 February 2008 (EST)
::So would you get the dark brotherhood message from doing it?--[[User:Marleysexton|Marleysexton]] 15:43, 20 February 2008 (EST)
:::No. It's not murder! You're giving someone a present. The fact it's fatal to someone that wears it is what fools the game, but it's not murder so NONE of the normal murder effects apply. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 15:54, 20 February 2008 (EST)
::::It should be noted that if you let your target for the Dark Brotherhood die this way in a public place that it will forfeit your bonus. It's just cut-and-paste from another section of the site, but this way you at least know;) - [[User:Korunox|Korunox]] 16:51, 20 February 2008 (EST)

== Weight of quest items ==
{{Good Question|Jun 2008}}
Does the actual weight of quest items count for the sneak penalty, or do they count as zero? The [[Oblivion:Boots of Springheel Jak|Boots of Springheel Jak]] and [[Oblivion:Boots of the Crusader|Boots of the Crusader]] come to mind - they actually weigh 1.5 and 9-18, but are 0 in your inventory (until [[Oblivion:The Path of the Righteous|The Path of the Righteous]] is complete.) [[User:Krenn|Krenn]] 13:38, 16 June 2008 (EDT)

:Also, on the [[Oblivion:Clothing|Clothing]] page, it says that shoes "are better than boots for sneaking, though still not as good as going barefoot". Is this universally true, given that most shoes weigh more than leather or fur boots? Do shoes carry some sort of bonus for not being armour, or are they simply better than ''most'' boots, by virtue of their weight? [[User:84.9.112.220|84.9.112.220]] 08:49, 22 February 2009 (EST)

::On your first question, I don't think they do until the quest for that item is complete, or at least until you do whatever you're supposed to do with the item. For ex. in the Fighters Guild quest the Desolate Mine, as soon as you give the weapons to the people, they have weight. Like if they die during the quest, you can take back the weapons and they have weight. For your second, yes, shoes are better than boots for sneaking, but no, they do not carry a bonus. The lighter your shoe the better. It depends soley on weight. However, once you reach Journeyman level, the weight of your shoes no longer matters. [[User:Hikarou411|Hikarou411]] 10:18, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

== Reverse Pick-pocket torches?==

If you reverse pick-pocket a torch (zero weight) onto an NPC, will they equip it at night? [[User:Dio 225|Dio 225]] 14:25, 25 June 2008 (EST)

: yes it will! [[User:Dio 225|Dio 225]]

==Pickpocketing==
I noticed it said that when you're pickpocketing you should be closer to the NPC I tryed that but i always got caught but when i was farther away I got away with it most of the time but I would like more opinons[[User:Jay480|Jay480]] 08:46, 14 August 2008 (EDT)
:As far as I know, your proximity to your target makes no difference, just as long as you actually ''see'' the sneak icon. I'm not 100% sure of that, however. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 13:19, 21 August 2008 (EDT)

== NPC detection factors ==

It says in several places on the site than an NPC's Speed attribute is what determines their ability to detect you. Although that MAY be true since there's no official info on it, it seems far more likely that it's actually their OWN Sneak value that's used as a sort of "opposed roll" to your own. The big hint is the Blind Moth Priests, who have a special spawn script that (a) makes them Blind, but also (b) gives them a Sneak bonus.
Since NPC's never actually sneak (except in specific Follower cases) the only reason for that would be to make them harder to sneak AGAINST. Guards also have Sneak as a Major Skill, which again makes no sense unless it's also used for detection.

Empirically, Conjurers and Necromancers are also "good" at spotting players, and they too both have Sneak as a Major Skill. Vampires are significantly harder to sneak past than non-Vampires, and though the ridiculous bonuses for full vampirism include +20 Speed, they also include +20 Sneak.

:See [[Oblivion:Useful Spells#Hide in Plain Sight|this]] spell. I've tested it, and it works. It means that at the least the Speed attribute has influence on how well an actor can detect you. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 11:21, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

:: No, it doesn't mean that at all. See http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Speed for why it works, which isn't the reason you think. (Then update the text on the spells page if you're feeling energetic). Note: that doesn't mean Speed doesn't have ANY impact on detection: nobody's proven or disproven that in any way, but it's far less likely than Sneak and if you're going to state theories as fact on the wiki you might as well at least go with the most plausible one. [[User:Aliana|Aliana]] 12:30, 11 October 2008 (EDT)

The golden example. Umbra has *100* Speed. Umbra can't spot you if you're carrying a torch and are close enough to pickpocket her. Literally, a TORCH.

:You're drawing conclusions from a series of assumptions you have not deduced that they are valid for the general case of detection. 100 Speed does ''not'' mean that the actor should always detect you. 100 Speed is not equal to 100% detection, no attribute works that way. Furthermore, basing the importance of Sneak just on a script that fortifies it on certain actor sounds very weak. Scripts just execute functions, nowhere does it explain ''why'' it does that. Even comments can be wrong, they just say what the programmer ''thinks'' is going on.

:In-game testing shows that setting an actor's Speed attribute to 0 drastically reduces its ability to detect you. They can still detect you if you manouver right in front of them, but they can't keep track if you, causing them to break off pursuit immediately. Setting Sneak to 0 doesn't give these results.

:There are more skills that have no benefit for a NPC. Think of Alchemy, Security and Speechcraft. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 09:45, 12 October 2008 (EDT)

:: If you insist on only ever using the special case of 0 Speed and acting as if it was also true for 1-100 Speed, that's your choice. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to "assumptions".

Other things that are trivially provable are:
* If you blind an actor, like the Moth Priests, Sneak is clearly the only factor # that affects detection. An NPC with 100 Speed and 10 Sneak can't detect a PC running around them with 25 Sneak, but an NPC with 10 Speed and 100 Sneak locks onto them instantly.
* If you unblind that actor, Sneak is STILL clearly the only factor # that affects detection, other than line-of-sight (although actors have a field of view that's almost indistinguishable from 180 degrees). If Eyja is sitting downstairs with 100 Speed and 10 Sneak, and you have 100 Sneak, she'll pick you up when you reach the garlic pillar. If she has 10 Speed and 100 Sneak, she'll pick you up as soon as you move from the bottom of the stairs, until you're behind her. If you cut your Sneak to 25 at that point, she'll pick you up again instantly.

(# "only" of Sneak and Speed, but I'm not going to check random things like Alchemy just in case they do too).

Myth Busted. :)

Incidentally, SDT 6 shows "how much" something is detected, but only when it's already in combat with the player, so it's not especially helpful for this, although you can see the impact of changing both party's Sneak skills around after getting it active.

:Please, show me exactly where I have my an assumption in my previous post. I don't like it when people twist my words for their own benefit.

:For the record, I was not saying Sneak would not affect detection, I was merely saying that you shouldn't base that conclusion on a script and NPC settings. Your latest tests seem to point out that Sneak indeed plays a role in Detection. It had me searching the CS and our friends at the CS Wiki have some interesting details as well at [http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/Category:Detection Category:Detection]. If you would have used these test results earlier to prove your point, and not dwelt on accusatory behavior, it would have saved us a headache. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 05:47, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

:: I'll highlight the assumptions if you really want to keep fighting over it, but I'd rather drop it and call it a miscommunication. There are more productive things for both of us to do. What's important is that we do have "the answers" now, not the squabbles along the way.
:: Great link, thanks. re the "Heavy boots make more noise than bare feet" on that page, it's more exactly "HeavIER boots make more noise than lighter boots which make ..." and so on, i.e. each lb of boot weight, all the way down to "Cloth" shoes, still counts. In theory, this is another benefit of the DB outfit, which technically has 0 Boot Weight (in fact, you can theoretically sneak better in the Arena Heavy Raiment than in a set of Fur armor, which amuses me). One other interesting detail (which we'll never really know the answer to, unfortunately) is exactly how the Journeyman perk fits in. If it effectively just changes fSneakBootWeightMult to 0, you may well still be paying the fSneakBootWeightBase penalty for wearing boots ''at all'', and both the CS Wiki and a literal reading of the perk description suggest that you actually are. We could probably make an informed guess someday with enough testing, but I've had about as much sneaking around Eyja as I can stomach for now. :) [[User:Aliana|Aliana]] 20:16, 14 October 2008 (EDT)

== As the crow flies ==

Timmen:
* Remember that sound is '''not''' blocked by walls. If a wall stands between you and a NPC, it will detect you as easily as if there was open space between it and you (and the NPC's has its back turned to you, otherwise it could simply see you).

People are going to read that as "if you're in a room with a layout like "E 3" (like one of the standard Ayleid sets) and you're in the SW corner with an NPC in the NW one". It's not just "wall", it's "20 feet of solid rock" too. If you want to try and make the section clearer, by all means go ahead, but you lost a critical piece of the actual meaning / behavior with that version.

:Than use "thick wall" or something like that. It makes the piece of text much clearer than what it currently is; describing only a special case, that is not even well documented. In the end it's about the difference in effect if the player and target have only wall between them or only open space; nothing. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 01:54, 30 October 2008 (EDT)

== Pfft. Take it. ==

Rather than list every NPC that doesn't mind if you pickpocket them, does anybody know what factors are necessary to get the result? Looking at the list so far, they all have a responsibility of 10 or below (except Eyja) and very low aggression (0 or 5). Is that the deciding factor? Or is it their disposition? If there's a way of generating a list, I'd prefer to put all the affected NPCs into a category rather than listing them all here. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:00, 26 January 2009 (EST)

== NPC Sneak Attacks ==

Is it possible for a sneaking NPC to Sneak Attack enemies, or get the Sneak Attack bonus? I first ran into this question in the Dark Brotherhood Murderer discussion, and would like to know if it is possible (making the Dark Brotherhood Archer usefull.) {{unsigned|24.23.88.49|21 March 2009}}

== Perfect Pickpocket ==
*If you have 100 sneak and 100 luck, does that mean it is impossble to fail pickpocketing, AKA 100% chance of pickpocketing. {{unsigned|Dadrak|28 March 2009}}
: You can still fail. You can even fail with 100 sneak, 100 luck and 100% chameleon. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 15:17, 28 March 2009 (EDT)

*Is there any possible way to get a 100% chance of pickpocketing without mods? (I mean this seriously, not carrying a torch right in front of them in full view.) {{unsigned|Dadrak|08 April 2009}}
: No, but the closest you can get would probably be about 98% or 99% --[[User:Darth NANAME|Darth NANAME]] 15:41, 8 April 2009 (EDT)

*Well, how do you get the highest chance of pickpocketing?

== tips? ==

any tips for pickpocketing people like The Gray Fox for his armour? they have high sneak levels {{unsigned|Repeater|21 April 2009}}

:See the [[Oblivion:Gray Cowl of Nocturnal|Gray Cowl]] page for more info on the Gray Fox in particular. For other NPCs, a high Sneak yourself is absolutely necessary, a [[Oblivion:Chameleon|Chameleon]] enchant is useful and possibly a dark surrounding or when they are sleeping. --[[User:SerCenKing|SerCenKing]] [[User talk:SerCenKing|Talk]] 15:01, 21 April 2009 (EDT)

== Stuck with Power Attacks in Sneak Mode ==

For some reason my character always does Power Attacks while sneaking, even when I'm just tapping the trigger. I've tried restarting, clearing the cache, changed weapon, but nothing worked. Anyone who has experienced this too and know how to make it go away? I'm playing the 360 version. [[User:Icko|Icko]] 17:11, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
:: That's standard vanilla oblivion for you. When in sneak mode, all (melee) attacks made are power attacks. (And my question is, why WOULDN'T you want your x6/4 damage attack to be a power attack?)
::: I don't know what you mean by "...all (melee) attacks are made power attacks." But anyway, the answer for your question is simple; when *not* sneaking standard attacks do a little damage and only uses a litte fatuige and Power Attacks do a lot of damage but also uses a lot of fatuige and they are slower. When sneaking it's almost the same, except for one thing, Power Attacks don't do more damage than standard attacks, but still uses more fatuige and are slower. I hope that you now understand why I don't want to waste fatuige on nothing. [[User:Icko|Icko]] 14:38, 10 June 2009 (EDT)

== Couple of Points ==

I see that a couple of my edits were reverted, and rather than continually edit the page back and forth, they should be discussed here.

The reason that you wouldn't want to pickpocket Armand Christophe is because he's a member of the Thieves' Guild. Unless you are wearing the Gray Cowl of Nocturnal, you will be kicked out of the guild if he catches you.

The second reason is that any NPC with a Responsibility of 100 will instantly report any crime committed against them. For example, Varel Morvayn could be murdered while the player is wearing 100% Chameleon armor, and the player could then proceed to wait/fast travel/do anything else they couldn't do if guards were pursuing them. However, you will receive the 1000 bounty every single time. [[User:68.32.250.200|68.32.250.200]] 00:38, 17 June 2009 (EDT)

:Just because you steal does not mean you are a member of the Thieves Guild. We cannot generalize that notion. --[[User:Mr._Oblivion|Mr. Oblivion]]([[User_talk:Mr._Oblivion|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Mr._Oblivion|C]]) 17:31, 22 June 2009 (EDT)

== Moved here from the page ==

A way to make sure you don't get caught while pickpocketing, when in the NPC's inventory, try to reverse pickpocket a non-zero weight item. It will fail, but exiting NPC inventory won't make you being caught. (Need to be proved.)
:I moved it here (with some minor changes, since it wouldn't make sense without them), because, as the original author said, it needs to be verified. It sounds rather unlikely and I can't see how that works but who knows? [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]] 21:24, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

==master heavy armour==
{{Good Question|Aug 2009}}if you are 100 in heavy armor and are not encumbered by it does this increase your chance of sneaking(would it be as good if not better than light armor) {{unsigned|195.93.21.2|4 August 2009}}
:As far as I'm aware, only the weight of your boots affects your ability to sneak, and even then only until you're a journeyman of sneak, and since your boots weigh nothing at master level...[[User:Sevvy|Sevvy]] 02:26, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

==gaurd not noticing==

it says on the page that if you kill a person in sneak mode and no one sees you you will not gain a bounty, unless the effect is different with enchanted weapons i have never had a murder where i am undetected without incuring a bounty, i can even remember having a bounty at 100% invisibiliyt so this cannot be true.
Anyone want to say anything about this?{{unsigned|195.93.21.2|22 August 2009}}
:Sometimes it is hard to remain undetected. And Invisibility never worked for me because it dispels once you perform an action. –[[User:Elliot|Elliot]] [[User_talk:Elliot|talk]] 08:28, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
::The same thing happened to me, I was sneaking behind someone, and killed them in 1 hit with an arrow, the crosshair was clear, but a Guard ran up to me arresting me when I traveled back to the Waterfront. [[Special:Contributions/68.113.150.31|68.113.150.31]] 20:33, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, if it was a guard you killed, you ALWAYS get a murder bounty (1000 gold) but if not, they also can realsie you killed someone if you hang around and are seen. (Seems they have to check the body first though and you are just standing around)
If those arent why though, then I dont know. {{unsigned|173.52.92.163|8 December 2009}}

== Completely Random? ==
Moderately new player attempting to learn how to play well :p In Imperial City's Market District, the Coinpurse Shop I saved my game, then lockpicked the door. Didn't go in, my little Sneak eye was dim, and a few seconds later the guard comes in. I reload my save, do it again, go inside, still with a dim eye, and nobody bats an eyelid!? Can anyone explain? Thanks in advance :) [[Special:Contributions/80.176.145.76|80.176.145.76]] 15:25, 25 August 2009 (UTC)
:It's almost certainly a case of the guard seeing you just at the last second before you went in. The eye was probably just barely starting to brighten, but it wasn't yet noticeable. I've had similar issues before, so I always make a point of saving before illegally entering somewhere, just in case. —[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 22:59, 25 August 2009 (UTC)

== How To Modify The Sneak Damage Multiplier In The Oblivion.ini? ==

I have always disliked that you are unable to get any damage mulitplier while sneak-attaking with a 2-handed weapon (even if it is a smaller multiplier than the standard 6x). Is there a specific line in the Oblivion.ini that I can modify to fix that problem for 2h weapons? If so, I would appreciate if anyone could help me out. [[User:Vashmanseven|Vashmanseven]] 23:40, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

:I don't know what you're talking about, all 2h weapons and 1h weapons get the same multiplier (With the exception of bows which only get a 3x multi(2x if sneak is under 25)). [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 03:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Oblivion talk:Marksman

2010-02-02T21:11:23Z

Jesseguy1: /* Enemy Arrows Fly Arround Room!? */

Somebody please check if normal arrows shot from a silver bow damage "immune to normal" enemies?

I can't confirm that, but I think it will work. At the very least, normal arrows fired from an enchanted bow definitely work. [[User:Quillan|Quillan]] 09:23, 25 April 2006 (EDT)

Yeah, I fired Iron Arrows from a Silver Bow, and Silver Arrow From a Steel Bow. Both allowed me to hit wraithes and such. I want an orcish bow and crossbows. If backwater Dark Elves in Morrowind can have them ( Crossbows ), why can't the sophisticated armies of Cryodiil? I have an idea. If Blades are set in three categories, each with a rising level of damage, Bow should have three similar categories. Blades, at least the one handed ones, have weak ( daggers ), stronger (shortswords) and stongest (longswords). Bows can have weak ( either shortbow, or just bow), stronger ( longbow ), and strongest ( crossbow ). Just like their blade counterparts, these different degrees of bows would take longer to use. The shortbow could fire off quickly, but the corssbow would take a few seconds to reload. This is a good mod idea... HAHAH, You would look like Legolas as you fired off a shortbow, all fast

--but to make the shortbows work you would have to tinker a little more then normal due to the physics engine making arrows shot off fast fall to the ground quickly--[[User:Acheeze|Acheeze]] 19:02, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

That's not a problem, I would have to do a lot more work with the crossbow than longbow and shorbow combined. The thing with the crossbow is that it would actually have less range than the shorbow, but still would be much more powerful becuase the bolt is heavier. The crossbow isn't too appealing to work with, but I would be willing to do it. Since I would have to make custom models for the crossbow and bolts, there would only be 2-3 variations maybe.
: I have no idea where the concept of crossbows having a short range comes from, it's deinately not true. A crossbow has a better range than any bow it just takes forever to reload. [[User:Grandmaster z0b|Grandmaster z0b]] 21:19, 25 February 2007 (EST)
:: I guess you don't know but, bows do fire alot further than crossbows, longbows and shortbows both go further than crossbows in the times they were used. Historically long bows always had the longest range. Some crossbows may have been longer range than some shortbows, but not many. As said in a previous post, crossbows are more damaging as the bolt is heavier and do take a long time to reload.

:::Yes the avove is true I have written a bit near the bottom of the page that explains it in more detail. I just have to add however crossbows arent neccasarily more damaging, it relies more on where the shot lands, and if your talking about armour penetration, bows can use heavy tipped quarrel in order to effectively peirce armour also. [[User:172.212.84.191|172.212.84.191]] 13:06, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

I would still like to see hitboxes and dynamic penetration of arrows. If you hit someone in the head, they should die almost insantly with an arrow. If they have a good helmet, it should simply bounce off and not do any damage. Im sick of my guy running around with 50 arrows shot all the way into him, while they only took half his health. The armor on your guys body should have the same properties as static objects in the game. Just like an arrow will bounce off stone walls, a weak arrow should bounce off the steel your guy is wearing. If it does penetrate, it should be the calculated how much flesh is shot through, and damage will be taken accordingly. Oh, good idea, then poisioned arrows mean nothing if they dont penetrate, but the arrow itself will still hurt your guy a little from the impact
Aye, someone should make this all a mod, someone... Someone that knows how to mods perhaps...lol

--perhaps a mod that in addition to the things you said does damage acording to where it hits like, as you said, a headshot (i actually yell out HEADSHOT like it is said in Halo) would kill instantly, a arrow that pierces the heart would do the same. And perhaps For armored enemies you would have to shoot between armor panels or soft spots. I think ill start a mod page for this (i cant do a mod like this myself)--[[User:Acheeze|Acheeze]] 21:37, 8 May 2006 (EDT)

If arrow would hit iron plate-mail example, the arrow will go through armor. To stop arrows - chainmail.Plate mail weakness are spears, arrows. Plate-mail is meant to soften hits from swords, axes and blunts. Chain-mail weakness are swords, axes. They are meant to stop arrows, spears and blunts. Leather weakness are swords and axes. They have slight weakness to everything, but they work best against blunt and also arrows.

:Again I have no idea where this bizarre idea comes from but it is definately ''not'' true. In fact in real life chainmail is weak to spears, arrows and blunt and strong against blades. Plate is good against everything except blunt. Leather would be good against arrows and blunt though. [[User:Grandmaster z0b|Grandmaster z0b]] 21:19, 25 February 2007 (EST)

:Fails at physics. This idea sounds like it was taken from a rock, paper, scissors style strategy rpg game.

::Not true z0b, chainmail as it was commonly used (you would have 1-2 layers of chain + another layer over more vital areas + a thick underlay of fabric to limit damage from penetration and also to soften the concussive force of blows) was effective at stopping alot of potential harm, its not a game where things are weak to x and strong vs y. However it was more succeptable to penetration than other armour (e.g scale). However plate works best against everything, being 'weak to blunt' is a bizzare falacy. Its main purpose is to minimize concussive force which plate with an underlay does very well. The only way to take down someone in plate is to strike weakspots (armpits, crotch etc) plates 'weakness' is that it is hot and tiring and even the best trained knights would be nearly passing out after only a few minutes of continuos combat in a suit. Leather on the other hand is next to useless, better than nothing but its not going to stop anything really, just possibly deflect it. Most leather/fabric armour has some metal support in it to improve its effectiveness but it is still very suceptable. [[User:172.212.84.191|172.212.84.191]] 13:06, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

:: Just thought i'd add at the end, weakspots are always the way that you would take down someone in armour whether it be chain, scale, partial plate, plate, banded etc. but in a completely just penetrating armour sense then piercing is always the most efficient way simply due to energy/contact area. Thats why swords became more and more tapered as armour became more prevalent, to improve thier effectiveness at stabbing. And please dont bring samuri swords into this, different situations acheiving different outcomes) [[User:172.212.84.191|172.212.84.191]] 13:15, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

:: The above user is correct, more force applied at a smaller area means you're more likely to deform an object.

Well I'm having trouble even decing where to begin. I guess we need to round up real modders. I've modded a lot in other games, I know how it all works, but I'm not familar with the Construction Set that much. I tried making a page earlier but didn't know what to call it so decided to wait. We can make a "Penetration Mod" for now, the other stuff should wait until we know how complicated ES modding is.

It shouldnt be that hard, we can simply layer the characteristsics of stones or metals ( we would definatly have to tweak the values ), over the texures for armor. Making it "hard" armor should be a copy and paste job really, but the penetration part sounds like a toughy. Wait, water in Oblivion has a penetration value, an arrow comes to a dead stop after 4 or so feet, which is pretty realistic I guess. The player can walk around with an invisible layer of water around him which coresponds to the strength of his armor? lol

Although the arrow never physically passes into this layer of water, the water iself calculates whether or not it stops, so if the buffer of water says that the arrow would have got stuck, the "hard" armor will be actiavated. Otherwise, the arrow will act like it does now and just sink right into someone.

It sounds complicated to use that water, but otherwise I don't have any idea as for a material that can calulate the level of penetration. You can't say, if arrow hits stone with certain mass, arrow passes through stone. hmm...interesting

A tricky part then, the the water is so close to the armor, that it would have to calculate pretty fast to determine whether or not to make "hard" armor...hmmm...seems easy to glitch..is anyone listening still? It's ok if you're not

[[User:ChristensenCT|ChristensenCT]]

I wonder if you could drop the whole water thing, give up on hitboxes (they are very hard to do in the simple scripting language) and dynamically change arrow display chance (I know this CAN be tweaked, see "improved arrow recovery" mod) so if the enemy wears daedric, the armour just bounces off like from skeletons, doing nearly null damage, if you wear mixed armour, the chance is reduced and damage assigned randomly according to armour hardness distribution (not sure where the arrow hits). Let me also paste my argument from the forum
*How would one go about this, I dare say you have peaked my interest. Is there a variable or a script for the skeleton effect?

:

What else would the Marksman be for?

Accidents may happen like you may broke the string or enemy will cut your bow half(i saw that an orc with daedric axe hit my rusty iron bow and i blocked it).

Maybe an archery element could be implemented for lower level Marksmenship, say you could either have to press a button
combination or roll for a certain percentage in battle if you want to fire faster, and if you lose the roll or mess
up the buttons, BAM! Dryfire. It would definetly take a toll on your bow durability, as numerous people in real
life situations have gotten nervous and dryfired while hunting.

It -could- improve range, accuracy of the bow, chance to restore arrow, rate of fire, wear of the bow from using it,
speed of the arrow, straighten the arc of the arrow flight, decrease enemy's armour rating vs arrows, allow for
location-based criticals (heart, eye, head, throat), and quite a few more. It just doesn't.

Actually real life marksman/archer skill doesn't really improve "damage" done by arrows (except by improving aim and hitting
vulnerable places.) The damage (force at which the arrow hits, ability to pierce armour, depth of wound) is improved
by type of bow (force needed to pull the string) and matching strength of the archer - a weaker guy, putting lots of
effort in pulling the string of a "hard" bow can't aim correctly, can't hold hand steady with muscles tensed to the
limits - so limiting usable bows types depending on STR would make sense - agility, marksman responsible for aim, while
bow type, strength responsible for damage, fatigue and potentially aim penalty (if strength below required).

This way sure, feel free to steal that pretty daedric bow, and good luck hitting a barn with it if your strength is 40,
no matter what agility and marksman skill (and of course you use up all your fatigue for one shot). With good agility,
marksman and a light bow you can shoot deers across Lake Rumare, but if you shoot a dremora with it, the arrows will
just bounce off.

This would mostly require parameters tweaking, very little or no realtime scripting and could pretty well work with the above - use weak bow against heavily armoured enemy - no effect, no damage. Use stronger bow against medium enemy, the arrows have a better chance of penetration. Simply commit the value of damage and fact of penetration not to actual location the arrow hits, but to a random (though well ballanced) pick.
- You shoot arrow. Type of bow and of arrow gives the energy of arrow, its capacity of piercing.
- Arrow hits enemy. You "roll" for location it hits: 10% head, 45% torso, 15% hands, 20% thighs, 10% feet.
- Check value (type) of armour at given location against the energy of arrow. Potentially roll a chance of hitting uncovered area in case of non-full armour piece (open helmets, cuirass without pauldrons).
- Assign damage according to whether, and how much does the arrow penetrate. Perform either rock-like bounce-off or wood-like pierce animation display (possibly by briefly changing the type of enemy?)

This doesn't conflict with the idea of hitboxes and could cooperate with them - if the hitbox glitches, fall back to randomizing. Or use two-three hitboxes (head, upper, lower body) instead of one for each piece of armour you wear, then randomize within armour elements contained in hitbox.
--[[User:Vook|Vook]] 06:46, 16 May 2006 (EDT)

Aye, it all could be done, but I have a few complaints. For one, your strength shouldn’t alter the actions of the bow. Two attributes shouldn’t be needed to wield a bow, that would be unfair to archers. Unless you made swords based on both strength and endurance, OR you could balance it out by giving the bow a lot of power. Also, Oblivion tries to move away from all the "random" actions. If it's ultimately decided that hits with the arrow can only be done by random, then just don't do it because that’s not how the game works. Other than that, it sounds like it can be done. Well, I think someone already made this mod anyway. --[[User:ChristensenCT|ChristensenCT]] 00:39, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
:Life's not fair ;) I agree that in -all- cases counting Strength towards max damage and Agility towards aim, speed etc would be fine, except used in different context (Bow: Strength caps the type of bow you can efficiently use, Agility allows for better aim no matter what bow, Sword: Strength decides about sword damage, Agility allows to swing it faster). Replacing completely silly calculations (better damage vs heavily armoured opponent thanks to higher Agility, if you shoot from half a mile away?) with random factor is better than leaving them for sake of game design consistency especially that Oblivion has some horrible design decisions.
:I bet the "random" approach could be good for rapid shots when you really can't aim well. And you could introduce an idea of "aimed shot" - if the enemy isn't moving, is not very far, you aren't moving, you are in sneak mode and not seen, the mod "builds" (static) hitboxes around the enemy and then you perform a nice fully-calculated hitbox-based shot with all the nice features :)
:Besides, the damage-strength progression doesn't have to be straight and linear. I can imagine a very light elven bow doing more damage over long distance than arm-ripping dwarven one - introduce idea of long bows (more difficult to wield, slower to shoot, but deliver decent punch and great aim), short bow (faster, weaker, worse aim), reflex bow (poor aim, good speed, huge strength required, but inflicts massive damage), and finally crossbow (ultra-slow, ultra-high punch, very good accuracy).
:Also, the damage could depend on distance and arrow weight - air resistance. Finally the heavy dremora field arrows would make sense - no damage loss for ultra-long sniper shots, while being equal in quality with iron arrows on short distance. Heavy arrow carries the energy better.

Oh, in case anybody was not paying attention, im gonna have to be a jerk about the different damage for different body parts idea and tell you all that if we can get even a mediocre modder on it, he can reuse the data gathered for armor wear and tear to determine where the hit lands (yes, it does actually damage armor based on what is hit). I bet it would be a pretty simple task to use that info that Oblivion is already generating and plugging it into a formula, but I honestly have no idea (and no time, which is why I'm talking about this instead of writing it). Thanks for bearing with my obnoxious and insulting tone, it was just a means of getting your attention.

== Underwater ==

I've shot my bow underwater before, but it's kinda useless, the physics make it stop like 4 feet into the water, just like a bullet fired from a gun. But just like a gun, Ive shot the bow underwater. Ill get screens if you want
: Yep, agreed, applied changes to reflect it, that's what I meant originally. It can be shot if you want to waste arrows, but doing any damage is near-impossible.

== pc vs 360 versions ==

Ok...everyone is talking about radiant AI is so awesome and physics and stuff...and DO NOT GET ME WRONG i am a massive elder scrolls fan, but on xbox 360 in my experience ( ive beat the game and done all the guilds quests) ive seen no sign of great AI, or any special physics. On my 360 i could easily shoot something underwater...if theyre far away the arrows just floats to the top but if they where a few feet away it does normal damage.Also ive tested that even the heaviest object in the game cannot even slightly damage anyone if its pushed on them...if it was real time physics a 500lb boulder would crush basically every creature in the game, and also ive noticed horses are easier to drag then rats....i kid you not. For those of you that have pc version, or both pc version and xbox360, is it just xbox 360 version is lower quality or wtf?and like i said i love elder scroll. oblvion is my favorite game i'm just asking this because what poeple are saying is totally different then what i see on my copy of the game.
: Well, Oblivion itself uses the Havok physics engine. A high-end PC might have more processing power for the physics (which allows for less slowdown and more calculations), but there shouldn't be ''that'' much of a difference.

: My first developed character is a master marksman, and i have fired arrows underwater. They do not go more than a meter in front of you before sinking to the bottom, instead of raising to the surface as you say. Also, in some oblivion gates, as well as dungeons, there are falling boulders that hurt enemies. There is a dungeon in particular with a series of timed, crushing blocks on a catwalk. I maneuvered my way through them, goaded a slew of enemies into following me, retraced back through and watched as the foes were crushed one by one attempting to get through the blocks. Enemies can also take damage from falling large heights. And what do you mean by "drag"? telekinesis? are we even talking about the same game?

::In my experience, arrows float to the surface when fired underwater... maybe heavier arrows sink though, I'm not quite sure. And about the dragging, on the Xbox360, holding LB allows one to move things around. On the PC it's the 'Z' button. In the controls it is labeled 'Grab'. Basically the same effect as telekinesis, but indefinate as long as the LB/Z button is held, and with a shorter range and no experience points gained for anything. [[User:Darkle|Darkle]] 22:30, 15 September 2007 (EDT)

And the area you grab affects how the object moves (eg. if you grab a sword by the hilt and move your cursor left to right it will spin, not strafe as it would if you used telekinesis or grabbed it's center of gravity.)

And with regards to the physics, you can't expect for every single item in the world to damage someone, it would be insanely difficult to program and most consoles would die straight-away, so in Oblivion there are certain items which can damage actors when moved (primarily traps, it's possible to crush an enemy by grabbing a log from dungeon log-traps and dropping it on them, but they have to be on the ground for it to really be worthwhile). The physics in Oblivion is quite amazing when you think about it. Your comment about horses and rats seems incorrect to me, I can quite easily hurl a dead rat off a cliff but I can barely make a horse's corpse budge. It's worth remembering it's MUCH harder to move corpses uphill and it's easier to move them if you bring them slightly off the ground. --[[User:Nacht|Nacht]] 16:55, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

== Zzz good idea, but wrong facts. ==

Well first off.. short, regular, and longbows do equal ratios of damage... the shorter the bow the fast the shots, the longer the bow the further distance (at least that's how it is in real life)and crossbows can be rapid shot and are strong on impact, but lack seriously in accuracy. I wish oblivion brough back throwing weapons like darts and surikans..

(That doesn't make sense. A longbow pushes an arrow farther than a shortbow because the force exerted by the longbow is much greater than that of a shortbow (150 lbs of force compared to the average of 50 lbs of force). And the 'damage' that we refer to is piercing power of an arrow. While it is certainly true that at a point, shortbows and longbows would be the same (for instance, if a shortbow would go all the way through a human, a longbow would be no more powerful), Longbows of sufficient power COULD break bones or split bones. Longbows would be much more powerful than shortbows, though their effects on something such as a thin sheet of cloth would be relativley the same.)

::Actually the above isnt too true. While draw weight does play a major part in the force behind the arrow, also the mechanics of the bow itself come into play. That is why longbows can shoot arrows with as much force as a crossbow with a higher draw weight. The crossbow has more draw weight than the longbow but has less distance to impart its energy into the arrow due to the limbs of the bow section being very short, on the other hand a long bow with a lower draw weight has much more distance to impart the energy into the arrow, so less energy is wasted with noise heat and recoil.

::You can modify any bow type to have any draw weight. Its just with equal draw weights a longbow will hit harder than other types. However you couldnt use a longbow on a horse (shortbow for that) and you couldnt train someone to accurately shoot a longbow within a couple of months (crossbow for that)

:: and of course quarrel wieght and shot trajectory play a part but this has become too long winded enough already. (sorry for any spelling errors im typing on a laptop and im not used to it) [[User:172.212.84.191|172.212.84.191]] 12:49, 5 August 2007 (EDT)

== Free Arrows ==

As a note to beginning players trying to conserve cash in their first levels, you can freely take arrows that NPCs fire into the targets behind the Fighter's Guild at Chorral without incurring a bounty. Just wait for a couple Fighters to start practicing their archery; when they've finished, you can simply grab them all from the targets. --[[User:TheRayven|TheRayven]] 16:53, 14 July 2007 (EDT)

== Leveling Marksman by Recollecting Arrows ==

I've gained levels from collecting arrows from enemies I have shot. I think you also gain experience from recovering arrows.

Can someone verify this? {{unsigned|75.162.220.244}}

:I don't know how you did that. It is not possible to gain experience by recovering arrows. See [[Oblivion:Marksman#Skill_Increases|Marksman#Skill_Increases]]. --[[User:Mankar Camoran|Mankar Camoran]]•[[User_Talk:Mankar Camoran|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Mankar Camoran|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Mankar Camoran|E]]• 16:45, 24 December 2007 (EST)
::After killing an enemy it takes a few moments for your marksman skill to increase. What must have happened was that you killed an enemy, then while you were collecting arrows your marksman skill increased because of the enemy you just killed a few moments ago. The same thing has happened to me a few times.--[[User:Willyhead|Willyhead]] 17:00, 8 February 2008 (EST)

== Arrow Glitch ==

I'm getting a strange bug with my bow on a new character I've created. When I pull back the bowstring and hold it back, I hear the whistle of the arrow as if I let it go, the arrow seems to move forward and float on the end of my bow, and then when I let it go it shoots off to the right, then the arrow slings around in mid-air and corrects itself to go where I was aiming. Anyone else ever have this happen to them? --[[User:Mole126|Mole126]] 04:06, 16 February 2008
: Short answer is no. Have you tried quitting the game and reloading? That sounds like something has got messed up in memory. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 04:39, 16 February 2008 (EST)
::Seems to have gone away on its own after I completed the Dark Brotherhood quest "A Watery Grave". --[[User:Mole126|Mole126]] 19:18, 16 February 2008 (EST)

It's Happened to me too.I think Rpeh is right, it's a glitch in memory,it goes away on its own,dropping or switching bows or arrows sometimes works too.--[[User:Puddle|Puddle]] 21:25, 28 February 2008 (EST)
:It happened to me using a dwarven bow, but went away when I switched to an elven. I figured that it was some random glitch because of training marksman or something.(I had recently shot a large amount of arrows training up).--[[User:129.62.113.147|129.62.113.147]] 22:43, 4 March 2008 (EST)
::I think it may have something to do with lag. I'm shooting a bow in [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] right now, with corpses and miscellaneous items littering the streets, and the glitch keeps on happeneing. -[[User:Puddle|Puddle]] [[User Talk:Puddle|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Puddle|Contribs.]] 15:54, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

== Foolish Ideas ==

I may be new hear but there I am not new to Oblivion. If all of the ideas listed in boxes above were to be implemented into the game of Oblivion then there would be a surplus of factors that make the game more complicated and much more slow, thus ruining the incredible combat style that we have all come to know and love from Bethesda. The marksman interface works fine as is and needs no change besides a broader selection of bows and arrows available for use and more races specializing in this field (only Wood Elves and Dark Elves get Marksman right off the bat). Any variables that greatly altered the gameplay would also greatly reduce the fun. --Glass

== Catching arrows in mid air? ==

Can anyone confirm/deny if arrows can be caught by pressing the A button (xbox 360) fast enough? Sorry if this is already in the discussion or something.
:No problem, yes they can, I believe it says so on the article.-[[User:Puddle|Puddle]] [[User Talk:Puddle|Talk]]•[[Special:Contributions/Puddle|Contribs.]] 15:56, 30 June 2008 (EDT)

They can but it's mostly luck if you do manage to catch one, always remember they don't follow a straight trajectory, but rather curve. On a side note, would carrying a shield around in front of you with grab/telekinesis give you any protection, as an arrow fired into a shield siting on the floor rebouds off it would a shield held in front deflect/absorb some of the arrow's power?

== Distance ==

:''Your skill also determines the distance that your arrow will travel.''
I didn't remove this from the article as it seemed legitimate. However, can someone verify what is true? Thanks.
–[[User:Elliot|Elliot]]([[User_talk:Elliot|T]]-[[Special:Contributions/Elliot|C]]) 07:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

:I've played with a few archer characters, and taken 3 to master, and I've never seen a difference in arrow travel distance, they all seem to travel similiar distances, and I can snipe as accurately with a Rusty Iron bow as I can with my current Daedric bow. {{unsigned|Fastandslow6|August 12, 2009 at 14:46}}

::Based on what is stated on the [[Oblivion:The Ultimate Heist#Hall of Epochs|Ultimate Heist article]]: ''Aim at the cross formed at the hilt of the statue's sword, or possibly slightly lower, where the top of the statue's hands come together '''(note: This depends on your Marksman skill. Those with high skill will want to aim lower. At 100 Marksman, you can virtually aim straight at the keyhole).''''' I would say that there is a minor affect on arrow travel distance based on skill level. I've noticed the variation mentioned in the quote as well, so there is something to the claim that a higher skill level results in greater distance, if only slightly. -[[User:Dlarsh|Dlarsh]]([[User_talk:Dlarsh|Talk]],[[Special:Contributions/Dlarsh|Contribs)]] 18:44, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
:::Someone just removed it, which is what I was leaning towards. I think that note is wrong in the Ultimate Heist page. I have never seen a difference in firing distance. –[[User:Elliot|Elliot]] [[User_talk:Elliot|talk]] 19:21, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Is this information worthy of adding to the article? ==

I found out that if i enter sniper mode and fire an arrow, the sniper mode remains active. Thus, it is possible to snipe with ranged spells afterwards. This may be useful. Could be added to some hint section, perhaps?

--[[Special:Contributions/78.69.109.203|78.69.109.203]] 15:45, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

:Interesting find. If it can be confirmed by multiple users then I think it could definitely be added to the article. -[[User:Dlarsh|Dlarsh]]([[User_talk:Dlarsh|Talk]],[[Special:Contributions/Dlarsh|Contribs)]] 20:06, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

::Ehm... what do you mean with "sniper mode"? That you can cast spells while sneaking is nothing new. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-<[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]> 11:13, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
:::No, it's not sneaking. With the Journeyman level perk for marksman you can zoom in with your bow. After shooting the arrow you will remain in zoom mode and so can use magic on target with increased accuracy, if it's true. [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]]->[[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|T]]->[[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|C]]->[[Special:Emailuser/Wolok gro-Barok|E]] 12:12, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

== chances *2?? ==

hey i had a question,
say if i was a master marksman, does the knock-back and paralyze shot both have a chance of happening, or does the paralyze shot replace the knock-back shot??

thxs,

[[User:Drane|Drane]] 22:38, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

:It doesn't replace it, of that I'm certain. But I don't know whether the chance of one of them happening is cumalitive or not. So either 5% + 5% = 10%, or 1 - (95% * 95%) = 9,75%
:But as you can see they are both very close. In short, with the Master perk you have a near 10% chance of either a knockback or a paralyze shot happening. While prior to the Master perk you only have a chance of 5%. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-<[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]> 10:21, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

== Silver Bow ==

I'm a level 7 looking for a silver bow. Any suggestions of where I should go/raid or kill?

Any help greatly appreciated. [[Special:Contributions/58.161.18.112|58.161.18.112]] 02:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
:[[OB:Rockmilk Cave|Rockmilk Cave]] is a well known spot for looting. You can also try [[OB:Lipsand Tarn|Lipsand Tarn]]. –[[User:Elliot|Elliot]] [[User_talk:Elliot|talk]] 20:53, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

== Headshots ==

can someone confirm wherever or not you do more damage by aiming for the head? {{Unsigned|90.149.251.200|23 December 2009}}

:It has no effect on the amount of damage you will deal. The damage done is the same no matter what body part you hit. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-<[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]> 13:35, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

== Appearing Arrows ==

Whenever I hit another marksman I use iron arrows because i need to get rid of them and I am a level 25 and when I shoot from sneak I will loot the corpse and then find 2 of the iron arrows instead of just the 1 I shot. I wouldn't think anyone would carry 1 iron arrow at level 25.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 01:13, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
:You never know, the equipment they carry is total random. They could have glass armor, or fur armor at that level, even though the odds for glass armor are much greater. But I think it may have been just a missunderstanding at you part. --[[User:Arch-Mage Matt|Arch-Mage Matt]] 01:31, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
::Well this happens every time from sneak while zoomed in is another thing.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 02:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
:::Actually, most NPCs that carry leveled arrows also carry 1 iron arrow too. Presumably this is in case the leveled list screws up or something, but it's almost always there in the CS lists. –[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 15:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

== 5% chance of knockdown: Really? ==

{{Good Question|Jan 2010}}Given the frequency with which my enemies were falling down (and me when guards were shooting at me), a 5% chance of knockdown seemed too low, so I did a test. Twice, I summoned an ogre with the console and shot 100 arrows into it, for a total of 200 arrows. Out of that, the ogre fell 32 times, or 16%. My character has 85 marksman, so it definitely wasn't paralyzation. I'm also only using BTmod and a hotkey mod, so it isn't my mods either. Maybe having 100 agility or strength has something to do with it, but whatever it is, the knockdown chance for my character is definitely NOT 5%. [[Special:Contributions/75.156.172.250|75.156.172.250]] 23:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

: I'm not sure where the 5% figure comes from. [[User:Timenn|Timenn]] only [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:Marksman&diff=next&oldid=480751 added it] recently - hopefully he'll be able to tell us. –[[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 00:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

::It comes from the CS, the value of IPerkMarksmanKnockdownChance. see http://cs.elderscrolls.com/constwiki/index.php/IPerkMarksmanKnockdownChance --[[user:Rhomphaia|Rhomphaia]][[User_Talk:Rhomphaia|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rhomphaia|C]] 00:11, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

:::Yup, I got the value straight for the CS. I haven't done the testing like is mentioned here. I know I noted earlier when playing the game that I got quite a few Knockdown successes, but didn't find them particularly more frequent than other knockdown effects (counting the fact that arrows have that chance at every shot, while the melee skills require you to do a special attack, with longer duration).

:::I think it's helpful to find out whether there is a relation between Agility and Knockdown chances. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-<[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]> 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

::::Well there are settings fKnockdownAgilBase and fKnockdownAgilMult, I did a bit of testing and by setting my targets agility to 0 I was knocking them down 50% of the time, this deacreased noticably as I increased the targets agility although my testing was not extensive enough to make any meaningful estimate of percentage. Player Agility ddid not seem to have any effect.

::::The Damage done by the shot may also make a difference. I initially started testing with a Bow and Arrow set that did 0 damage, so as not to have to bother reviving my targets every few shots, and I never got a single knockdown. There are settings for fKnockdownDamageBase and fKnockdownDamageMult. Although I did not notice much difference between Iron and Daedric Gear only with the 0damage gear.

::::Certainly some more in depth testing is warranted--[[user:Rhomphaia|Rhomphaia]][[User_Talk:Rhomphaia|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rhomphaia|C]] 15:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

:::::Excellent bit of testing! You're right though - it's going to need more to find out all the effects that can change the chance. I imagine the same applies to paralysis too... [[User:Rpeh|rpeh]] •[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 15:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

::::::Agreed, nice testing. If the values on this article appear to be incorrect, we probably need to test them for the other weapon perks as well. But it's a good idea to find the formula behind it for Marksman, as its perk abilities are a bit easier to get working. I'm willing to do some testing with this myself too. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]]-<[[User talk:Timenn|talk]]> 16:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

== Un-loading bow ==

It says on the [[Oblivion_talk:Increasing_Skills]] page that pressing 'grab' will un-load your bow; does anyone know if this works on the xBox too with the left bumper? I'm at work at the moment so can't test it. If it is standard across platforms is it worth including here? It would have been very useful to know this before as I've lost loads of arrows because of it. -[[User:Snorkel.maiden|Snorkel.maiden]] 12:22, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

:Just tested on XBox, and no, LB didn't do anything. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 02:00, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

:Also, to avoid losing arrows, just aim most of the way down, let go of the arrow, and press A to grab it. You don't even have to be very fast pressing A, just quick enough to grab it before it starts rolling away. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 21:02, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

== Enemy Arrows Fly Arround Room!? ==

I can shoot arrows fine, but any time an NPC fires an arrow, it flies up and around the room in a circle until it hits something! I know this could probably be fixed by reloading my save, but I thought I should mention it here. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 01:58, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

:I just noticed that this was also mentioned [[Oblivion_talk:Marksman#Arrow_Glitch|here]], so if this is a somewhat common occurrence, should this be added to the notes section of the main article? [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 21:11, 2 February 2010 (UTC)

2010-02-01T16:47:48Z

Jesseguy1:

User:Jesseguy1

2010-02-01T05:55:33Z

Jesseguy1:

User:Jesseguy1

2010-02-01T05:53:56Z

Jesseguy1: Created page with 'I'm currently working on a 100% run through. This includes completing all quests, finding/exploring all locations, finding all skill books, getting all skills/ attributes level 1...'

Oblivion talk:Staff of the Everscamp

2010-02-01T02:15:00Z

Jesseguy1: /* Damage is on touch? (Xbox 360) */

==Keeping the Staff==
If you abuse the glitch to keep the Staff, do the Scamps still follow you? {{unsigned|80.73.215.109}}
:I doubt it. Once you get the appropriate quest message, the scripts for the Everscamps likely bind them to the place. They still respawn, so you may go back any time to level your skills. [[User:Vesna|Vesna]] 14:24, 29 March 2008 (EDT)
::They do i did it {{unsigned|68.193.144.109}}
::: The scamps no longer follow you and you lose the -20 speed. {{unsigned|88.110.44.68}}

== Increasing Attributes ==

I've just taken a look at the staff's scripting. It uses the <code>modav</code> command to add the speed penalty to the player. It does indeed turn a stat red in the skill list but does ''not'' let the player gain any skill points if the skill was previously at 100. I tested this using my current character with an armorer skill of 100. I used <code>modav</code> to add a -20 penalty to his armorer skill. The skill turned red in the list and I no longer had the mastery perk (my hammers started breaking). I used <code>tdt</code> with info screen 10 to show me the current level of the skills and started repairing my armor. About 20 repairs later the armorer stat hadn't budged an inch. This is obviously not done with the staff but there's no reason it should behave any differently. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:05, 31 March 2008 (EDT)
I feel that you may have taken the wrong apporach since what your example tested was about skills thus not necesairly related to attributes. I may be wrong but this seems very familiar to the felldew exploit. I will try to raise my stats similarly but does anyone know a definite answer? I have seen somewhat unreliable places online say similar to above.
:: Confirmed: in version 1.2.0416‎ whenever you level up you see your actual speed, without the penalty from the staff, and you cannot raise it above 100 (I tried just to be completely sure.) May want to put that in the article for the curious. --[[User:Nocturnal|Nocturnal]] 18:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

==Enchanting==

--Is it possible to use a restore/fortify speed enchantment to return to previous level? Also, after the staff has been enchanted at an altar, can the staff be dropped (due to it's new form ID)? {{unsigned|81.153.37.99}}
:You can't enchant quest items to begin with so the short answer is no. --[[User:Volanaro|Volanaro]] 13:24, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

:In fact the staff of the everscamp can be enchanted once glitched to keep --[[User:Tabloes|Tabloes]]

I think the point of the question is "if you have exploited the glitch (or possibly if you finish the quest normally) will the -20pts reduction to your Speed be reversed?" and I am also eager to know. [[User:The-manta|The-manta]] 13:23, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

== Keep the staff, but you can drop it ! ==

Ok, First,'''If you chosse to do this, you will sacrifice the ring you get as an award.''' Now to do this go to dark something cave. When you get the message saying you do not have the feeling to have it, just leave. Now you can drop it! But if you drop as they are following, they will continue to follow until you kill them. Then they will respawn at the staff

And what is the point of doing this? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:39, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

It's true; this way lets you keep the scamps, if you want them but don't want to carry the staff around all the time. I left the cave after getting that message. The staff now weighs 12 and I can drop it, and the scamps still follow me around. If I want to get rid of them for a little while, I put the staff in a chest in my house. The scamps will follow me for a bit, but eventually they "forget" about me and stop following me. When I want them again, I just have to retrieve the staff from my house and fast-travel somewhere, and they'll reappear at my side. This is useful if, like me, you want to keep the scamps as pets (or minions) and don't care about the speed reduction. The scamps can also be useful occasionally, as distractions and such. I intend to keep them with me through the rest of the game. (Tested on Xbox 360.)

== Good to train Marksman ==

I don't see why Marksman shouldn't be included in the list of ways to train with this staff. It is easier to train Marksman with the Everscamps than training Armorer o.O --[[User:Matthewest|Matthewest]] •[[User_Talk:Matthewest|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Matthewest|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Matthewest|E]]• 00:10, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
:If you think there are other suggestions that should not be in the list, then perhaps they need to be removed, with an explanation of why the suggestions are not relevant. But the existence of one less-than-helpful entry in the list is not a justification for expanding the list with other unhelpful entries. Given that the tip says "such as" the list should just provide a few examples, instead of overloading readers with an unnecessary, comprehensive list of every possible way to attack an Everscamp. The tip provides a link to an article where more complete information is appropriate. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 00:52, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

==Extreme usefulness==
Does anyone else think that aside from the fact the Scamps are useful for training skills, they have tons of other good uses? The article currently says they become less useful at higher levels. At higher levels, ranged enemies become even more annoying, and the Scamps, in my opinion, are useful to draw attention away or get in the way of arrows. [[User:Dr. Kilereren|Dr. Kilereren]] 22:50, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:You're absolutely correct. Please feel free to update the article if you feel it needs changed. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 11:58, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

==Scamps will not fight==
Mah scamps will not fight for me!! WHat to do?
'TACS {{unsigned|71.92.118.204}}

:Do my glitch called "Keep the Staff...But you can drop it!" Also it could be the scamps are so weak the they die in one hit. {{unsigned|68.193.151.52}}

The scamps will only fight if attacked or if you cast command creature on them. What does your glitch have to do with the question? Are you saying the scamps act as followers (attacking whoever attacks you) once you use the glitch? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

==Keeping the Staff / XBOX 360==
I thought it might be important to note that on my Xbox w/ Shivering Isles expansion, placing the staff into a container was not enough. I had to specifically place it into a container (corpse in this case) while at the altar itself. Placing it in any corpse, container near the altar (but clearly not the altar) brought no result.

In this case I used the body of an everscamp, but had to be quick about it (they respawn fast).

Quick Update:
I've also noticed on my system that by completing the quest and having it properly update:

- The Scamps do not follow you, they wander aimlessly around the Altar.
- Killing a scamp causes it to respawn near its corpse, not the staff.
- The scamps upon leaving, slowly walk back to the cave.

When not completing the final quest step:

- The Scamps continue to follow you normally.
- But you loose the chance of the reward. {{unsigned|66.222.240.78|13 September 2008}}

== Huh? ==

if u drop it can u come back to get it?

Nope. You have to put it in a container. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 05:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

== You Can Get Away with Murder! ==

:''(Following moved here from [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]])''
If you have the Staff of the Everscamp past the "Whom Gods Annoy" quest, as you know, it can be enchanted with effects like any weapon. What you may not know, is that using the staff on people is not considered an act of aggression at all! Whether you enchant it with Damage Health or Disintegrate Weapon/Armor, no one will attack you. You will still get a point for murder, but no bounty. So it's a good way to rack up murder points!

Note: As it says in the other articles about the Staff, do not drop it anywhere, you wont be able to pick it up again. It can go into and out of containers without a problem. And don't save with the Staff on screen, upon the load of that file, it will disappear.

Note2: Enchanting the Staff and dropping it will not allow you to pick it up once dropped. I'm sure this is common knowledge, but I haven't seen it written anywhere.

Actually, I'm messing with it a bit right now. So far, this is what I've came up with.

- Trying to dupe the *Unenchanted* Staff, via the Skull will not work. The Staff wont be listed in the clone's inventory.
- If you place an Enchanted version of the Staff in a corpse, and then loot the corpse's clone, it will be in the clone's body as an unenchanted staff, but it will have the same name as whatever you called the enchanted Staff.

- On my first try, I got the duped Staff from the clone, so I tried to drop it to see if it lost its scripts. I was actually able to pick it up after dropping. I even went into the corpse's body and took the original Staff. It lost the enchant I gave it, and still couldn't be picked up from the ground like normal. I tried using scrolls to dupe the "new" Staff, but it didn't dupe.
- I tried saving with the duped Staff extended, to see if it wouldn't cause any harm, but it froze upon the load.

- Since then I haven't been able to properly dupe the Staff.
- When I tried duping the Staff again, occasionally upon a reload to steal from the clone, it would disappear from my, the clone's, and the corpse's inventory. I had to go back to an earlier load for the staff to reappear.
- Due to that, I haven't been able to go much further since it keeps happening.

- Apparently, reloading the game negates the enchantment it has, even if it's in a container somewhere. So I suppose other than trying to make a staff that can be dropped and picked up, there isn't a point to trying to dupe it. Though the topic point, the free killing still works.

I can confirm that it's not considered aggressive. --[[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 05:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

== Interesting enchanting glitch - you can enchant the staff a second time if you desire (xbox 360) ==

I just finished the quest, exploited the glitch by storing the staff in a container instead of dropping it on the alter, and thusly have the Staff of the Everscamp in my possession as an enchantable item.

I enchanted the staff to be a mage-destroyer. I call it the Banstick, lol:

Absorb Health 10pt

Fire Damage 20pt

Weakness to Magic 100% @ 2sec

Soul Trap @ 1sec

Works pretty well. Anyways, I made a save before enchanting and after enchanting. After trying the staff out on some unsuspecting mage scholars, I reloaded my post-enchanting save. I then experimented with dropping it and attempting to pick it up or move it. I got the usual message saying I couldn't remove it from the shrine, but I could move it around the room. It is pretty clear that you can't drop it and then pick it back up, so I reloaded my post-enchanting save file.

My Banstick was still titled as such, but it had no enchantment on it! The soul gem I had used to enchant was gone as well, and I checked the other save just to make sure I hadn't reloaded the wrong one. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to enchant it again, but lo and behold, I activated the alter and the staff was available for enchanting. It was still named "The Banstick", but otherwise the process was the same as usual.

So it seems that if you get sick of whatever enchantment you have on the staff, you can re-enchant it by following this process:
1 - Save your game.
2 - Drop the enchanted staff.
3 - Reload the save you just made.
4 - Enchant as usual.

As far as I know, this makes the Staff of the Everscamp the only re-enchantable weapon in the game, as well as the only enchantable staff in the game. The enchantment I listed above leaves you with 18 casts/attacks. Coupled with Azura's star, this means you have a never-empty, custom-enchanted, re-enchantable staff. Pretty sweet!

It should also be of note that the staff uses up charges slightly differently than a normal enchanted weapon. With an enchanted sword, for example, if you take a swing but do not hit anything, you don't use the swords charge up. This is not the case with the staff. If you hit the attack button with your staff equipped, but whiff and hit nothing, you will still use up 1 attacks worth of charge.

This definitely should be added to the article if my result is duplicated by others. I am playing on the xbox 360.
[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:46, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

:Well, my experiment ended up failing, sorta. It doesn't matter if you save, then drop, then reload. Reloading your save regardless removes enchantments from the staff. I just realized that an above poster already discovered this while trying to enchant the staff. Doh. Anybody figured out a way to enchant the staff and remove the weird scripts on it preventing enchantments to stick?[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:55, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== Unnecessary sentence ==

"The new staff weighs 12 pounds which may result in encumbrance problems if you are close to your maximum when doing this." First: In what way is this a bug? A lot of quest items weigh more when the quest is finished. And second: 12 pounds isn't that much, so I really don't think encumbrance will be a problem. [[User:Icko|Icko]] 15:56, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
:It's not meant to be a bug of its own, just a warning that if you're taking advantage of the bug that lets you keep the staff, it'll be a little heavier than other staffs. Personally, I agree and don't feel the need to state that fact on the page...but then, I think most of that section could go. I have little use for an exploits, but especially not one that's as difficult to maintain as this one is. But maybe that's just me. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 22:41, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

== My Enchantment of the Staff ==

Not sure how welcome this will be on this page (feel free to delete it), but here goes. I enchanted my staff as such:

* Weakness to Magicka 100% for 1 second.

* [[Oblivion:Drain Health|Drain Health]] 100 points for 1 second.

* Shock Damage 24* points for 1 second.

I'm pretty sure it was 24 points of shock. I used a completely full [[Oblivion:Grand Soul Gem|Grand Soul Gem]] so whatever gets the charge up to as close to 85 as possible. Or less, if it gives you more charge (the shock damage is only there for appearances). Anyway, the reason I like this enchantment is because I named the staff "Cattle Prod", which I found funny. {{Unsigned|71.67.176.89|18 June 2009}}

:I'm sorry, but there are just too many useful combinations possible to start listing them. Also, you were correct in asking this on the talk page first. It doesn't have to be deleted. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 10:51, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Giving to martin ==

The article says that the staff is a daedric artifact - can it be given to Martin? This info should be included to the article. (And perhaps the info whether the possible enchanted version of the staff or the copies could be given, if the original one cannot be given.);:{{unsigned|88.114.30.82|20:24, 18 August 2009}}
: I checked the quest dialogue and found only the shrine artifacts can be given to Martin, nothing else has a topic so it wouldn't be able to be offered to him.{{unsigned|Griffinsong|20:37, 18 August 2009}}
::I don't believe it's possible to give it to Martin. I'll add it to the article because it seems important enough to mention. [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]]->[[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|T]]->[[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|C]]->[[Special:Emailuser/Wolok gro-Barok|E]] 01:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Hang on PS3 when carrying staff into certain areas ==

I've been carrying this staff around for quite awhile. However when doing the quest to get the Umbra ([[Oblivion:Clavicus_Vile|Clavicus_Vile]]) I ran into a major bug that I believe is related to this staff. After about 50 seconds or so of entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] the game would always freeze and lock up (music would still play but the PS3 was completely hung). I tried many work-arounds, including loading old saves and entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] before starting the quest but had no luck.

I stumbled on a post on-line (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=oblivion&thread.id=5683) suggesting that the staff might be implicated. To find out I finished the quest to return the staff then entered [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] and experienced no more difficulty with hung games. Therefore I suspect the interaction of this staff and [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] was somehow causing this bug! Also I experienced a similar bug in [[Oblivion:Fort_Grief]] during the quest [[Oblivion:Caught_in_the_Hunt]]. Specifically the game would freeze after about 25 seconds in zone 1 of the Hunters Run after having entered and left zone 2. I had the staff with me at this time and only managed to escape the bug by drinking potions to increase my speed so I could exit zone 1 before ~25 seconds elapsed.{{unsigned|210.84.43.43|12 September, 2009}}

I've had the exact same issue with the staff and both quests - however, I think this is directly tied to the everscamps themselves. Specifically, in Fort Grief, I was only able to leave zone 1 upon returning to it from zone 2 by first killing the scamps and then making a mad dash before they had all respawned. In Vindasel, I was able to kill the scamps before running through the poison gas room, confront Umbra and tell her to fight, then run back to the room prior to the poison gas room where the scamps were, kill them again, run back and one-shot Umbra with the difficulty bottomed out, and then run back towards the entrance to get just past the poison gas room again.

And despite all that, I don't have Umbra the sword, because the time it takes to loot the body adds just enough time to cause my game to crash before I see the poison gas room on my way back out for the last time -_-

All in all, I'd rather keep the scamps, but my opinion on this might change if this happens once again.

== Damage is on touch? (Xbox 360) ==

About a year ago, I was messing around with enchanting the staff, and I discovered that the enchantments (fire damage at least, that's all I tested) have no range! I just thought I'd mention this, as I didn't see it posted anywhere yet.

I'll confirm this once I get around to doing the quest again.

Has anybody else experienced this? [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 02:15, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Oblivion:Staff of the Everscamp

2010-02-01T02:13:05Z

Jesseguy1: /* Notes */

<noinclude>{{Trail|Items|Artifacts}}[[Category:Oblivion-Weapons-Staves]][[Category:Oblivion-Quest Items]]
</noinclude>{{Artifact Summary
|PageName=Staff of the Everscamp
|ArtifactType=Artifact
|Type=Staff
|Weight=12 (0)<noinclude> — ''see [[#Notes|notes]]''</noinclude>
|Health=30
|Value=0
|Charge=N/A
|Enchant=Summons four permanent [[Oblivion:Everscamp|Everscamps]] [[Oblivion:Damage Speed|Damage Speed]] 20 pts to staff's bearer
|EditorID=MS43EverscampStaff
|ObjectID=0004F790
|image=OB-item-Staff of the Everscamp.jpg
|imgdesc=The Staff of the Everscamp
}}

The '''Staff of the Everscamp''' is a [[Lore:Daedra|Daedric]] staff associated with [[Oblivion:Sheogorath|Sheogorath]]. Once the staff is activated by reading its engraved rune, four non-hostile [[Oblivion:Everscamp|Everscamp]]s appear and follow the staff's bearer. The staff's bearer is no longer able to put down or get rid of the staff. There are only two ways to get rid of the staff: find someone else who is willing to take it, or return to its original location, namely the shrine of Sheogorath in [[Oblivion:Darkfathom Cave|Darkfathom Cave]]. [[Oblivion:Rosentia Gallenus|Rosentia Gallenus]] has accidentally activated the staff and enlists the player's help in getting rid of it during the quest [[Oblivion:Whom_Gods_Annoy|Whom Gods Annoy]].<includeonly>

For full details, including several exploits associated with the staff, see the [[Oblivion:Staff of the Everscamp|Staff of the Everscamp]] article.
</includeonly><noinclude>
{{NewLine}}
==Notes==
* If one of the Everscamps is killed, it will shortly reappear (with no memory that it was previously attacked). Therefore attacking the scamps is a very useful way to [[Oblivion:Increasing Skills#General Combat Strategies|train combat skills]].
** You do not need to be on the quest to make use of the Everscamps. Beforehand, Rosentia doesn't seem to mind you killing the Everscamps in her house; after the quest, you can repeatedly go back to Darkfathom Cave and attack the Everscamps.
** Killing Everscamps can also be used to easily obtain Lesser [[Oblivion:Souls|Souls]].
* The Everscamps can be useful as allies in combat through Command Creature spells, especially at lower levels. At higher levels, their fixed attack damage makes them less useful. However, many spells can be used to enhance the Everscamps: [[Oblivion:Shield|Shield]] and [[Oblivion:Fortify Health|Fortify Health]] improve their defenses and [[Oblivion:Fortify Speed|Fortify Speed]] can make them a dangerous force when they surround a foe. They can also be used as guard dogs, alerting you to an enemy's presence. For efficiency, it's best to make your spells for the scamps have a radius of 10 feet to avoid having to cast at each scamp.
* When you take the staff from Rosentia, your Speed is damaged by 20 points. This reduction is implemented by directly modifying your character's speed attribute (it does not show up as damage in your statistics), and therefore it cannot be removed by any means (e.g., [[Oblivion:Restore Speed|restore]] effects or other [[Oblivion:Healing|healing]] methods). The only way to regain your 20 speed points is to drop the staff, finishing the quest.
** If you have the -20 speed and you gain a level, on the level up screen it shows your speed without the penalty. This is to prevent players from getting their speed past 100.
* Since the staff is a quest object, it normally weighs nothing. It only weighs 12 pounds after it ceases to be a quest object.
* The Everscamps are also useful to distract enemies and, since they tend to crowd near you, block attacks from ranged enemies.
* Though the staff is of Daedric origin, it cannot be given to [[Oblivion:Martin|Martin]] in the quest [[Oblivion:Blood of the Daedra|Blood of the Daedra]].

== Bugs==
* It is possible to permanently obtain the Staff of the Everscamp (but not the respawning scamps themselves). At [[Oblivion:Whom Gods Annoy#Journal Entries|quest stage 60]] (after arriving at the Shrine of Sheogorath in Darkfathom Cave), a message appears telling you: "I'm no longer feeling the urge to possess the Staff of the Everscamp." At that point the staff ceases to be a quest object. Instead of dropping the staff on the ground, you can place the staff into the corpse of a creature (even an Everscamp) who was killed near the altar. Technically, any container would work, but the only nearby chest (behind the altar) is not close enough to trigger the quest update. After you have received the quest update, retrieve the staff from the creature's corpse.
** The new staff weighs 12 pounds which may result in encumbrance problems if you are close to your maximum when doing this.
** Never drop the staff anywhere: once dropped it is never possible to pick it back up again (you get the error message "The item cannot be removed from the shrine." even if you are not in the shrine).
** The staff can be stored in containers and later retrieved, since you're not activating it when removing it from a container.
** You must '''not''' save your game when the staff is drawn. Your staff shows up in the save picture, but the next time you load your game your staff will have disappeared, and you will have nothing but your hands drawn.
** The main reason to do this is that you can now [[Oblivion:Enchanting|add a custom enchantment]] to the staff using an enchanting altar, because technically the Staff of the Everscamp is "unenchanted" (its effects are all implemented using scripts rather than enchantments).
*** Any such enchantment will be implemented the same way as other custom weapon enchantments: on strike (touch), rather than the targeted spell used by all other staves.
*** Do not enchant the staff without first putting the staff into a container (to complete the quest). Otherwise after the staff has been enchanted, it is impossible to finish the quest.
</noinclude>

General:Oblivion Fan Interview

2010-02-01T01:32:10Z

Jesseguy1:

{{Trail}}
;1. Will Oblivion retain Morrowind's linear quest concept for the main quest, or will it be possible to approach this from many different angles, changing the final outcome in the process?

:Overall, the main quest is more linear than it is wide-open, but it does have sections where the actual goals for you become more open. As much as possible, we try to allow you to finish each quest in as many ways as possible. The actual very end is the same no matter what you did to get there. There are little things we can do well with our kind of game, like get this item from this character especially now with our new AI system where even something that simple opens itself up for tons of different gameplay options.

;2. Altering the level of difficulty in Morrowind and it's expansions was very simple. You slid one generic bar up and down and it increased or decreased the difficulty of some aspect of the game. In this next installment of the Elder Scrolls series will players have more control over specific aspects of the game?

:Unknown right now, we do plan on having a difficulty slider that affects how easy and hard the game is. But how it does that has not been finalized. I'd be interested to hear peoples opinions on that one. Would they like separate damage sliders vs skill use sliders? Good one for the fans to chime in about.

;3. The TES series has always offered the player other options besides the main quest and side quests. Will Oblivion expand on that concept and offer other activities/professions?

:I'd like to think we're expanding that idea. There is tons to do other than the main quest, and we hope that we've got a better handle on what kinds of things the player may want to do and how to deliver that. I don't know if I would say expand as much as improve the concept of freeform gameplay.

;4. The population in Cyrodiil, the assumed main setting for Oblivion, is said to be thousands upon thousands. With such a small NPC bank, how do you plan on emulating this massive crowd?

:With the number of NPCs we have (around 1000), it's dense. It's an insane number for us to pull off, so I can't say were at-all concerned with the number of characters in the game. If anything, it's too many, but we always do that. All of our lore is obviously written as ideal, to say X province or city has so many people, but you can't always actually pull that off on screen, or even store it, so you try to create a scale that feels good in game, that plays well and is fun. So the scale of the terrain and the number of NPCs is always geared to the gameplay more than the lore saying how big or small something is.

;5. In regards to the new Radiant AI system, it has been stated that NPCs will be able to think and react independently of scripts. Does this mean that a player could order an NPC to do something (if in the position of a guild head, etc., or perhaps find a random unscripted quest due to independent NPC actions?

:Yes, we can do those things. I'm not saying they are in there, and were toying now with watching NPCs do things and how we can really get the player to affect that or have more fun with it, or even see it. So I won't give specific examples right now, but we'll be trying some similar things in places. I can tell you that our goal for the Radiant AI was the Fargoth quest in the beginning of Morrowind, which took some heavy scripting to get Fargoth to behave well, sneak around, steal the ring, put it in the stump, and such. Our early goal for the Radiant AI was that kind of thing just happening, without any scripting. And it works - which is great. But if we didn't tell you what Fargoth was up to, you would have never noticed, or it would have looked really odd. Anyway, thats the stage were at, we have the behaviors, and we're trying to maximize the players perception of what's happening.

;6. The armorer skill in Morrowind was limited to repairing objects; the bus 'stopped there'. Do the developers plan on expanding the abilities of this skills in Oblivion, and if so, how?

:One of the things we're not ready to talk about.

;7. In Morrowind beast races were restricted by their physical attributes from utilizing closed faced helms as well as boots, and were not given a boost in hand-to-hand attacks based on their claws. What, if any, special rewards are going to be awarded to beast races in Oblivion, to balance this lack?

:Well, Oblivion handles those races differently in many respects, so I can't really talk yet about specific perks and such. Suffice to say, each race will have its own perks, and they should all balance well.

;8. How do you expect the Oblivion Magic system to differ from Morrowind's?

:Another item, we're not ready to go into detail on. But I can tell you that we felt Morrowind magic was too weak, in terms of being able to use it as your sole way of playing the game. That was really a reaction to Daggerfall, which was too magic heavy. Anyway, our goal is that you could play the entire game just using magic, and have that balance the same way combat or stealth does. To really be successful playing Morrowind, you had to use weapons, and we want to avoid that.

;9. In Morrowind it did not matter where you struck an enemy in melee combat; a hit was a hit, and the damage was determined independently of where your blow landed. In Oblivion will the point of a weapon's impact, on both armor and flesh, factor into a more or less devastating attack?

:It won't. We did have that in Morrowind for a while and found it just made it too action heavy. That if you were good at it you could easily go for the head and really kill people. And on the converse, if NPCs could do it to you and you would die faster. I think with this game, your characters appearance is almost as important as your stats, and some people simply like their characters look without a helmet. So we treat armor rating as one number for your whole body and the damage is based on that.

;10. A developer recently stated, on the forums, that sneaking was going to get some 'tender-loving-care'. Is there anything you would be willing to share with us about these changes at this time?

:That part of the game is working great, really good stuff we've been spending more time on recently. Emil Pagliarulo, who worked on the Thief series, has been working on that, and its much more realistic, using light and shadow and how you are moving. It's always been tricky for us because you have physical things affecting sneaking, and then abstract things, like your characters skills, so I think we're getting a better balance of how that plays out and giving the player feedback on if they can be seen, and NPCs searching for you and you can hear them say things like I know you're here somewhere kind of stuff.

;11. What options will there be for the player who wants a home? Will we be able to purchase or own one or more, and to what extent do you expect the player to be able to modify this home?

:We have some plans, but we're not ready to talk about that either.

;12. Could you give the fans any information regarding the behavior of water--eg. flowing and making puddles--and if it will be able to be above or below "0" level?

:Sorry, can't talk about that yet. Yes, there will be water, and yes, it will look and behave great.

;13. Will Oblivion return to the location based music concept apparent in earlier installments of the TES series, with dedicated music for dungeons and different aspects like timing and weather?

:More on that later, but it's bigger and better than we've ever done. Really excited about the music and I can't say a word yet.

;14. What changes can we expect in the CS? Specifically, can you say anything about modeling and texturing, the dialogue editor, or the scripting language?

:Modeling and texturing will still be done in StudioMax, and not our editor. The dialogue and scripting system have been wrapped into a new quest system. Once you see it, you'll never want to go back to the old way. Quests are really collections of data in the editor you can manipulate as a whole, and turn big things on and off and track the state of a quest. It really has a workflow that's a lot closer to how you design a quest on paper. There are a lot of other new features, but the core world building in the Construction Set remains like Morrowind with cells and object references.

;15. Will interior and exterior cells be separate in Oblivion as they were in Morrowind? If so, will creatures other than the player be able to enter and exit these interior cells?

:Yes, they are separate, and yes, any character or creature can walk between them. And it happens constantly with the Radiant AI.

;16. Are there plans on utilizing the entire viewable map area this time, including the water areas as places of interest and underwater quests?

:I'm not sure what this question is asking. The entire map we create for the game is open to you, just as it was in the previous games. We do have a border to it, that you can't go out of, but thats obvious. In terms of water, we do limit it actually. We find that spending a long time underwater isn't really that fun. Plus combat underwater always has odd issues. So we do use underwater stuff, but we intentionally keep it to short exploration things, such as finding a new area or item, and keep the amount of underwater combat down.

;17. Those of us who are explorers wish to know how you are planning on implementing a border for the map (province). Will this be similar to Morrowind's infinite ocean?

:There is a border you basically hit an invisible wall and the game says you've reached the edge go back. So no, there is not infinite water. Cyrodiil is surrounded by the other provinces, so we have to do a border. As much as possible, we try to make this a physical barrier, like a mountain, but that just looks odd sometimes, so we go with the game message. But because you can now see so far, we've had to build miles of landscape into these provinces, because even though you cannot go there, you can stand on a mountain and see there.

;18. Can you give examples of the extent the Havok engine will allow players to interact with the environment?

:Havok is by far the most fun we've had working with middleware. The depth it can add is amazing, especially to a game like ours, where we have so many items around. So anything you can pick up gets havok. Also, our artists can create areas of the world that react to physics, such as doors or chains that hang from the ceiling. We've been having a blast lately shooting arrows into things and watching them react. So from a visual standpoint, such as bodies falling down stairs, or books and plates flying around, it is fantastic. From a gameplay standpoint, we're just starting to work those elements into things like our dungeons. One thing I can say is that the telekinesis magic is getting an all-new level of cool. More on that when we start talking about magic.

;19. What audience is Oblivion going to be aimed towards; Specifically, what do you believe the final ESRB rating are you working towards?

:Our audience is game players who love fantasy and great games. As far as ESRB rating, I don't really know, and to be honest we don't shoot for one or another. We said this with Morrowind as well: We make the game we want. If it's M, so be it. There's a certain tone we want to the game and mature situations. There's also going to be a realistic amount of blood. Nothing crazy, but enough to make it really feel like you just hit a guy with a sword. That may get us an M, it may not, I don't care. You didn't ask, but I know nudity is an issue with fans because it was in Daggerfall and such. That's something I wouldn't do even if we were allowed to. I think it distracts from the tone of the game. Maybe I'm still too immature (note from Pete: I can vouch that this is, in fact, the case), but when I see breasts in a movie, I still yell "Boobies!".

;20. And lastly, considering that every piece of new information is being scrutinized heavily by the TES fan base, how much weight does the online community have with the decision making process?

:The people who've bought and played our past games have a huge amount of weight, because ultimately, that's who were making the game for. But keep in mind, we've sold millions of Elder Scrolls games, and 99% of the people who've bought our games are not online talking about them. We get phone calls, we get letters, we do our own surveys to see what they like and don't like. So we're at no loss for fan feedback.

:And believe it or not, we read it all. We read the forums all the time, we read all the letters, all the reviews and all the surveys. We also spend a great deal of time looking at other games, and other fan communities to see how those games are received. I can honestly say our fans are the best I've seen. I've come to realize that our games have become as much a part of our fans lives, as it is of our lives, and that does create a bond and a responsibility to do something we are all excited about.

:There are obviously some issues that fans discuss where they simply don't have all the necessary info for us to really do exactly what they want. This goes for many things regarding Oblivion, because its still in development, and people are forced to discuss things they haven't seen. But with regard to our past games, where the experience is there for you to play and see and comment on, feedback on that really drives us to create the next game and make it even better more than anything else.

==See Also==
* [[Oblivion:Fan Interview II|Fan Interview II]]
* [[Oblivion:Fan Interview III|Fan Interview III]]
* [[Oblivion:Fan Interview IV|Fan Interview IV]]

Oblivion talk:Staff of the Everscamp

2010-01-31T05:28:24Z

Jesseguy1: /* You Can Get Away with Murder! */

==Keeping the Staff==
If you abuse the glitch to keep the Staff, do the Scamps still follow you? {{unsigned|80.73.215.109}}
:I doubt it. Once you get the appropriate quest message, the scripts for the Everscamps likely bind them to the place. They still respawn, so you may go back any time to level your skills. [[User:Vesna|Vesna]] 14:24, 29 March 2008 (EDT)
::They do i did it {{unsigned|68.193.144.109}}
::: The scamps no longer follow you and you lose the -20 speed. {{unsigned|88.110.44.68}}

== Increasing Attributes ==

I've just taken a look at the staff's scripting. It uses the <code>modav</code> command to add the speed penalty to the player. It does indeed turn a stat red in the skill list but does ''not'' let the player gain any skill points if the skill was previously at 100. I tested this using my current character with an armorer skill of 100. I used <code>modav</code> to add a -20 penalty to his armorer skill. The skill turned red in the list and I no longer had the mastery perk (my hammers started breaking). I used <code>tdt</code> with info screen 10 to show me the current level of the skills and started repairing my armor. About 20 repairs later the armorer stat hadn't budged an inch. This is obviously not done with the staff but there's no reason it should behave any differently. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:05, 31 March 2008 (EDT)
I feel that you may have taken the wrong apporach since what your example tested was about skills thus not necesairly related to attributes. I may be wrong but this seems very familiar to the felldew exploit. I will try to raise my stats similarly but does anyone know a definite answer? I have seen somewhat unreliable places online say similar to above.
:: Confirmed: in version 1.2.0416‎ whenever you level up you see your actual speed, without the penalty from the staff, and you cannot raise it above 100 (I tried just to be completely sure.) May want to put that in the article for the curious. --[[User:Nocturnal|Nocturnal]] 18:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

==Enchanting==

--Is it possible to use a restore/fortify speed enchantment to return to previous level? Also, after the staff has been enchanted at an altar, can the staff be dropped (due to it's new form ID)? {{unsigned|81.153.37.99}}
:You can't enchant quest items to begin with so the short answer is no. --[[User:Volanaro|Volanaro]] 13:24, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

:In fact the staff of the everscamp can be enchanted once glitched to keep --[[User:Tabloes|Tabloes]]

I think the point of the question is "if you have exploited the glitch (or possibly if you finish the quest normally) will the -20pts reduction to your Speed be reversed?" and I am also eager to know. [[User:The-manta|The-manta]] 13:23, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

== Keep the staff, but you can drop it ! ==

Ok, First,'''If you chosse to do this, you will sacrifice the ring you get as an award.''' Now to do this go to dark something cave. When you get the message saying you do not have the feeling to have it, just leave. Now you can drop it! But if you drop as they are following, they will continue to follow until you kill them. Then they will respawn at the staff

And what is the point of doing this? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:39, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

It's true; this way lets you keep the scamps, if you want them but don't want to carry the staff around all the time. I left the cave after getting that message. The staff now weighs 12 and I can drop it, and the scamps still follow me around. If I want to get rid of them for a little while, I put the staff in a chest in my house. The scamps will follow me for a bit, but eventually they "forget" about me and stop following me. When I want them again, I just have to retrieve the staff from my house and fast-travel somewhere, and they'll reappear at my side. This is useful if, like me, you want to keep the scamps as pets (or minions) and don't care about the speed reduction. The scamps can also be useful occasionally, as distractions and such. I intend to keep them with me through the rest of the game. (Tested on Xbox 360.)

== Good to train Marksman ==

I don't see why Marksman shouldn't be included in the list of ways to train with this staff. It is easier to train Marksman with the Everscamps than training Armorer o.O --[[User:Matthewest|Matthewest]] •[[User_Talk:Matthewest|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Matthewest|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Matthewest|E]]• 00:10, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
:If you think there are other suggestions that should not be in the list, then perhaps they need to be removed, with an explanation of why the suggestions are not relevant. But the existence of one less-than-helpful entry in the list is not a justification for expanding the list with other unhelpful entries. Given that the tip says "such as" the list should just provide a few examples, instead of overloading readers with an unnecessary, comprehensive list of every possible way to attack an Everscamp. The tip provides a link to an article where more complete information is appropriate. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 00:52, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

==Extreme usefulness==
Does anyone else think that aside from the fact the Scamps are useful for training skills, they have tons of other good uses? The article currently says they become less useful at higher levels. At higher levels, ranged enemies become even more annoying, and the Scamps, in my opinion, are useful to draw attention away or get in the way of arrows. [[User:Dr. Kilereren|Dr. Kilereren]] 22:50, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:You're absolutely correct. Please feel free to update the article if you feel it needs changed. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 11:58, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

==Scamps will not fight==
Mah scamps will not fight for me!! WHat to do?
'TACS {{unsigned|71.92.118.204}}

:Do my glitch called "Keep the Staff...But you can drop it!" Also it could be the scamps are so weak the they die in one hit. {{unsigned|68.193.151.52}}

The scamps will only fight if attacked or if you cast command creature on them. What does your glitch have to do with the question? Are you saying the scamps act as followers (attacking whoever attacks you) once you use the glitch? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

==Keeping the Staff / XBOX 360==
I thought it might be important to note that on my Xbox w/ Shivering Isles expansion, placing the staff into a container was not enough. I had to specifically place it into a container (corpse in this case) while at the altar itself. Placing it in any corpse, container near the altar (but clearly not the altar) brought no result.

In this case I used the body of an everscamp, but had to be quick about it (they respawn fast).

Quick Update:
I've also noticed on my system that by completing the quest and having it properly update:

- The Scamps do not follow you, they wander aimlessly around the Altar.
- Killing a scamp causes it to respawn near its corpse, not the staff.
- The scamps upon leaving, slowly walk back to the cave.

When not completing the final quest step:

- The Scamps continue to follow you normally.
- But you loose the chance of the reward. {{unsigned|66.222.240.78|13 September 2008}}

== Huh? ==

if u drop it can u come back to get it?

Nope. You have to put it in a container. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 05:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

== You Can Get Away with Murder! ==

:''(Following moved here from [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]])''
If you have the Staff of the Everscamp past the "Whom Gods Annoy" quest, as you know, it can be enchanted with effects like any weapon. What you may not know, is that using the staff on people is not considered an act of aggression at all! Whether you enchant it with Damage Health or Disintegrate Weapon/Armor, no one will attack you. You will still get a point for murder, but no bounty. So it's a good way to rack up murder points!

Note: As it says in the other articles about the Staff, do not drop it anywhere, you wont be able to pick it up again. It can go into and out of containers without a problem. And don't save with the Staff on screen, upon the load of that file, it will disappear.

Note2: Enchanting the Staff and dropping it will not allow you to pick it up once dropped. I'm sure this is common knowledge, but I haven't seen it written anywhere.

Actually, I'm messing with it a bit right now. So far, this is what I've came up with.

- Trying to dupe the *Unenchanted* Staff, via the Skull will not work. The Staff wont be listed in the clone's inventory.
- If you place an Enchanted version of the Staff in a corpse, and then loot the corpse's clone, it will be in the clone's body as an unenchanted staff, but it will have the same name as whatever you called the enchanted Staff.

- On my first try, I got the duped Staff from the clone, so I tried to drop it to see if it lost its scripts. I was actually able to pick it up after dropping. I even went into the corpse's body and took the original Staff. It lost the enchant I gave it, and still couldn't be picked up from the ground like normal. I tried using scrolls to dupe the "new" Staff, but it didn't dupe.
- I tried saving with the duped Staff extended, to see if it wouldn't cause any harm, but it froze upon the load.

- Since then I haven't been able to properly dupe the Staff.
- When I tried duping the Staff again, occasionally upon a reload to steal from the clone, it would disappear from my, the clone's, and the corpse's inventory. I had to go back to an earlier load for the staff to reappear.
- Due to that, I haven't been able to go much further since it keeps happening.

- Apparently, reloading the game negates the enchantment it has, even if it's in a container somewhere. So I suppose other than trying to make a staff that can be dropped and picked up, there isn't a point to trying to dupe it. Though the topic point, the free killing still works.

I can confirm that it's not considered aggressive. --[[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 05:28, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

== Interesting enchanting glitch - you can enchant the staff a second time if you desire (xbox 360) ==

I just finished the quest, exploited the glitch by storing the staff in a container instead of dropping it on the alter, and thusly have the Staff of the Everscamp in my possession as an enchantable item.

I enchanted the staff to be a mage-destroyer. I call it the Banstick, lol:

Absorb Health 10pt

Fire Damage 20pt

Weakness to Magic 100% @ 2sec

Soul Trap @ 1sec

Works pretty well. Anyways, I made a save before enchanting and after enchanting. After trying the staff out on some unsuspecting mage scholars, I reloaded my post-enchanting save. I then experimented with dropping it and attempting to pick it up or move it. I got the usual message saying I couldn't remove it from the shrine, but I could move it around the room. It is pretty clear that you can't drop it and then pick it back up, so I reloaded my post-enchanting save file.

My Banstick was still titled as such, but it had no enchantment on it! The soul gem I had used to enchant was gone as well, and I checked the other save just to make sure I hadn't reloaded the wrong one. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to enchant it again, but lo and behold, I activated the alter and the staff was available for enchanting. It was still named "The Banstick", but otherwise the process was the same as usual.

So it seems that if you get sick of whatever enchantment you have on the staff, you can re-enchant it by following this process:
1 - Save your game.
2 - Drop the enchanted staff.
3 - Reload the save you just made.
4 - Enchant as usual.

As far as I know, this makes the Staff of the Everscamp the only re-enchantable weapon in the game, as well as the only enchantable staff in the game. The enchantment I listed above leaves you with 18 casts/attacks. Coupled with Azura's star, this means you have a never-empty, custom-enchanted, re-enchantable staff. Pretty sweet!

It should also be of note that the staff uses up charges slightly differently than a normal enchanted weapon. With an enchanted sword, for example, if you take a swing but do not hit anything, you don't use the swords charge up. This is not the case with the staff. If you hit the attack button with your staff equipped, but whiff and hit nothing, you will still use up 1 attacks worth of charge.

This definitely should be added to the article if my result is duplicated by others. I am playing on the xbox 360.
[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:46, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

:Well, my experiment ended up failing, sorta. It doesn't matter if you save, then drop, then reload. Reloading your save regardless removes enchantments from the staff. I just realized that an above poster already discovered this while trying to enchant the staff. Doh. Anybody figured out a way to enchant the staff and remove the weird scripts on it preventing enchantments to stick?[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:55, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== Unnecessary sentence ==

"The new staff weighs 12 pounds which may result in encumbrance problems if you are close to your maximum when doing this." First: In what way is this a bug? A lot of quest items weigh more when the quest is finished. And second: 12 pounds isn't that much, so I really don't think encumbrance will be a problem. [[User:Icko|Icko]] 15:56, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
:It's not meant to be a bug of its own, just a warning that if you're taking advantage of the bug that lets you keep the staff, it'll be a little heavier than other staffs. Personally, I agree and don't feel the need to state that fact on the page...but then, I think most of that section could go. I have little use for an exploits, but especially not one that's as difficult to maintain as this one is. But maybe that's just me. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 22:41, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

== My Enchantment of the Staff ==

Not sure how welcome this will be on this page (feel free to delete it), but here goes. I enchanted my staff as such:

* Weakness to Magicka 100% for 1 second.

* [[Oblivion:Drain Health|Drain Health]] 100 points for 1 second.

* Shock Damage 24* points for 1 second.

I'm pretty sure it was 24 points of shock. I used a completely full [[Oblivion:Grand Soul Gem|Grand Soul Gem]] so whatever gets the charge up to as close to 85 as possible. Or less, if it gives you more charge (the shock damage is only there for appearances). Anyway, the reason I like this enchantment is because I named the staff "Cattle Prod", which I found funny. {{Unsigned|71.67.176.89|18 June 2009}}

:I'm sorry, but there are just too many useful combinations possible to start listing them. Also, you were correct in asking this on the talk page first. It doesn't have to be deleted. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 10:51, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Giving to martin ==

The article says that the staff is a daedric artifact - can it be given to Martin? This info should be included to the article. (And perhaps the info whether the possible enchanted version of the staff or the copies could be given, if the original one cannot be given.);:{{unsigned|88.114.30.82|20:24, 18 August 2009}}
: I checked the quest dialogue and found only the shrine artifacts can be given to Martin, nothing else has a topic so it wouldn't be able to be offered to him.{{unsigned|Griffinsong|20:37, 18 August 2009}}
::I don't believe it's possible to give it to Martin. I'll add it to the article because it seems important enough to mention. [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]]->[[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|T]]->[[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|C]]->[[Special:Emailuser/Wolok gro-Barok|E]] 01:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Hang on PS3 when carrying staff into certain areas ==

I've been carrying this staff around for quite awhile. However when doing the quest to get the Umbra ([[Oblivion:Clavicus_Vile|Clavicus_Vile]]) I ran into a major bug that I believe is related to this staff. After about 50 seconds or so of entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] the game would always freeze and lock up (music would still play but the PS3 was completely hung). I tried many work-arounds, including loading old saves and entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] before starting the quest but had no luck.

I stumbled on a post on-line (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=oblivion&thread.id=5683) suggesting that the staff might be implicated. To find out I finished the quest to return the staff then entered [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] and experienced no more difficulty with hung games. Therefore I suspect the interaction of this staff and [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] was somehow causing this bug! Also I experienced a similar bug in [[Oblivion:Fort_Grief]] during the quest [[Oblivion:Caught_in_the_Hunt]]. Specifically the game would freeze after about 25 seconds in zone 1 of the Hunters Run after having entered and left zone 2. I had the staff with me at this time and only managed to escape the bug by drinking potions to increase my speed so I could exit zone 1 before ~25 seconds elapsed.{{unsigned|210.84.43.43|12 September, 2009}}

I've had the exact same issue with the staff and both quests - however, I think this is directly tied to the everscamps themselves. Specifically, in Fort Grief, I was only able to leave zone 1 upon returning to it from zone 2 by first killing the scamps and then making a mad dash before they had all respawned. In Vindasel, I was able to kill the scamps before running through the poison gas room, confront Umbra and tell her to fight, then run back to the room prior to the poison gas room where the scamps were, kill them again, run back and one-shot Umbra with the difficulty bottomed out, and then run back towards the entrance to get just past the poison gas room again.

And despite all that, I don't have Umbra the sword, because the time it takes to loot the body adds just enough time to cause my game to crash before I see the poison gas room on my way back out for the last time -_-

All in all, I'd rather keep the scamps, but my opinion on this might change if this happens once again.

== Damage is on touch? (Xbox 360) ==

About a year ago, I was messing around with enchanting the staff, and I discovered that the enchantments (fire damage at least, that's all I tested) have no range! I just thought I'd mention this, as I didn't see it posted anywhere yet.

I'll confirm this once I get around to doing the quest again.

Has anybody else experienced this?

Oblivion talk:Staff of the Everscamp

2010-01-31T05:19:30Z

Jesseguy1: /* Damage is on touch? (Xbox 360) */ new section

==Keeping the Staff==
If you abuse the glitch to keep the Staff, do the Scamps still follow you? {{unsigned|80.73.215.109}}
:I doubt it. Once you get the appropriate quest message, the scripts for the Everscamps likely bind them to the place. They still respawn, so you may go back any time to level your skills. [[User:Vesna|Vesna]] 14:24, 29 March 2008 (EDT)
::They do i did it {{unsigned|68.193.144.109}}
::: The scamps no longer follow you and you lose the -20 speed. {{unsigned|88.110.44.68}}

== Increasing Attributes ==

I've just taken a look at the staff's scripting. It uses the <code>modav</code> command to add the speed penalty to the player. It does indeed turn a stat red in the skill list but does ''not'' let the player gain any skill points if the skill was previously at 100. I tested this using my current character with an armorer skill of 100. I used <code>modav</code> to add a -20 penalty to his armorer skill. The skill turned red in the list and I no longer had the mastery perk (my hammers started breaking). I used <code>tdt</code> with info screen 10 to show me the current level of the skills and started repairing my armor. About 20 repairs later the armorer stat hadn't budged an inch. This is obviously not done with the staff but there's no reason it should behave any differently. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:05, 31 March 2008 (EDT)
I feel that you may have taken the wrong apporach since what your example tested was about skills thus not necesairly related to attributes. I may be wrong but this seems very familiar to the felldew exploit. I will try to raise my stats similarly but does anyone know a definite answer? I have seen somewhat unreliable places online say similar to above.
:: Confirmed: in version 1.2.0416‎ whenever you level up you see your actual speed, without the penalty from the staff, and you cannot raise it above 100 (I tried just to be completely sure.) May want to put that in the article for the curious. --[[User:Nocturnal|Nocturnal]] 18:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

==Enchanting==

--Is it possible to use a restore/fortify speed enchantment to return to previous level? Also, after the staff has been enchanted at an altar, can the staff be dropped (due to it's new form ID)? {{unsigned|81.153.37.99}}
:You can't enchant quest items to begin with so the short answer is no. --[[User:Volanaro|Volanaro]] 13:24, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

:In fact the staff of the everscamp can be enchanted once glitched to keep --[[User:Tabloes|Tabloes]]

I think the point of the question is "if you have exploited the glitch (or possibly if you finish the quest normally) will the -20pts reduction to your Speed be reversed?" and I am also eager to know. [[User:The-manta|The-manta]] 13:23, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

== Keep the staff, but you can drop it ! ==

Ok, First,'''If you chosse to do this, you will sacrifice the ring you get as an award.''' Now to do this go to dark something cave. When you get the message saying you do not have the feeling to have it, just leave. Now you can drop it! But if you drop as they are following, they will continue to follow until you kill them. Then they will respawn at the staff

And what is the point of doing this? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:39, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

It's true; this way lets you keep the scamps, if you want them but don't want to carry the staff around all the time. I left the cave after getting that message. The staff now weighs 12 and I can drop it, and the scamps still follow me around. If I want to get rid of them for a little while, I put the staff in a chest in my house. The scamps will follow me for a bit, but eventually they "forget" about me and stop following me. When I want them again, I just have to retrieve the staff from my house and fast-travel somewhere, and they'll reappear at my side. This is useful if, like me, you want to keep the scamps as pets (or minions) and don't care about the speed reduction. The scamps can also be useful occasionally, as distractions and such. I intend to keep them with me through the rest of the game. (Tested on Xbox 360.)

== Good to train Marksman ==

I don't see why Marksman shouldn't be included in the list of ways to train with this staff. It is easier to train Marksman with the Everscamps than training Armorer o.O --[[User:Matthewest|Matthewest]] •[[User_Talk:Matthewest|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Matthewest|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Matthewest|E]]• 00:10, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
:If you think there are other suggestions that should not be in the list, then perhaps they need to be removed, with an explanation of why the suggestions are not relevant. But the existence of one less-than-helpful entry in the list is not a justification for expanding the list with other unhelpful entries. Given that the tip says "such as" the list should just provide a few examples, instead of overloading readers with an unnecessary, comprehensive list of every possible way to attack an Everscamp. The tip provides a link to an article where more complete information is appropriate. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 00:52, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

==Extreme usefulness==
Does anyone else think that aside from the fact the Scamps are useful for training skills, they have tons of other good uses? The article currently says they become less useful at higher levels. At higher levels, ranged enemies become even more annoying, and the Scamps, in my opinion, are useful to draw attention away or get in the way of arrows. [[User:Dr. Kilereren|Dr. Kilereren]] 22:50, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:You're absolutely correct. Please feel free to update the article if you feel it needs changed. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 11:58, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

==Scamps will not fight==
Mah scamps will not fight for me!! WHat to do?
'TACS {{unsigned|71.92.118.204}}

:Do my glitch called "Keep the Staff...But you can drop it!" Also it could be the scamps are so weak the they die in one hit. {{unsigned|68.193.151.52}}

The scamps will only fight if attacked or if you cast command creature on them. What does your glitch have to do with the question? Are you saying the scamps act as followers (attacking whoever attacks you) once you use the glitch? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

==Keeping the Staff / XBOX 360==
I thought it might be important to note that on my Xbox w/ Shivering Isles expansion, placing the staff into a container was not enough. I had to specifically place it into a container (corpse in this case) while at the altar itself. Placing it in any corpse, container near the altar (but clearly not the altar) brought no result.

In this case I used the body of an everscamp, but had to be quick about it (they respawn fast).

Quick Update:
I've also noticed on my system that by completing the quest and having it properly update:

- The Scamps do not follow you, they wander aimlessly around the Altar.
- Killing a scamp causes it to respawn near its corpse, not the staff.
- The scamps upon leaving, slowly walk back to the cave.

When not completing the final quest step:

- The Scamps continue to follow you normally.
- But you loose the chance of the reward. {{unsigned|66.222.240.78|13 September 2008}}

== Huh? ==

if u drop it can u come back to get it?

Nope. You have to put it in a container. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 05:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

== You Can Get Away with Murder! ==

:''(Following moved here from [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]])''
If you have the Staff of the Everscamp past the "Whom Gods Annoy" quest, as you know, it can be enchanted with effects like any weapon. What you may not know, is that using the staff on people is not considered an act of aggression at all! Whether you enchant it with Damage Health or Disintegrate Weapon/Armor, no one will attack you. You will still get a point for murder, but no bounty. So it's a good way to rack up murder points!

Note: As it says in the other articles about the Staff, do not drop it anywhere, you wont be able to pick it up again. It can go into and out of containers without a problem. And don't save with the Staff on screen, upon the load of that file, it will disappear.

Note2: Enchanting the Staff and dropping it will not allow you to pick it up once dropped. I'm sure this is common knowledge, but I haven't seen it written anywhere.

Actually, I'm messing with it a bit right now. So far, this is what I've came up with.

- Trying to dupe the *UNenchanted* Staff, via the Skull will not work. The Staff wont be listed in the clone's inventory.
- If you place an ENchanted version of the Staff in a corpse, and then loot the corpse's clone, it will be in the clone's body as an unenchanted staff, but it will have the same name as whatever you called the enchanted Staff.

- On my first try, I got the duped Staff from the clone, so I tried to drop it to see if it lost its scripts. I was actually able to pick it up after dropping. I even went into the corpse's body and took the original Staff. It lost the enchant I gave it, and still couldn't be picked up from the ground like normal. I tried using scrolls to dupe the "new" Staff, but it didn't dupe.
- I tried saving with the duped Staff extended, to see if it wouldn't cause any harm, but it froze upon the load.

- Since then I haven't been able to properly dupe the Staff.
- When I tried duping the Staff again, occasionally upon a reload to steal from the clone, it would disappear from my, the clone's, and the corpse's inventory. I had to go back to an earlier load for the staff to reappear.
- Due to that, I haven't been able to go much further since it keeps happening.

- Apparently, reloading the game negates the enchantment it has, even if it's in a container somewhere. So I suppose other than trying to make a staff that can be dropped and picked up, there isn't a point to trying to dupe it. Though the topic point, the free killing still works.

== Interesting enchanting glitch - you can enchant the staff a second time if you desire (xbox 360) ==

I just finished the quest, exploited the glitch by storing the staff in a container instead of dropping it on the alter, and thusly have the Staff of the Everscamp in my possession as an enchantable item.

I enchanted the staff to be a mage-destroyer. I call it the Banstick, lol:

Absorb Health 10pt

Fire Damage 20pt

Weakness to Magic 100% @ 2sec

Soul Trap @ 1sec

Works pretty well. Anyways, I made a save before enchanting and after enchanting. After trying the staff out on some unsuspecting mage scholars, I reloaded my post-enchanting save. I then experimented with dropping it and attempting to pick it up or move it. I got the usual message saying I couldn't remove it from the shrine, but I could move it around the room. It is pretty clear that you can't drop it and then pick it back up, so I reloaded my post-enchanting save file.

My Banstick was still titled as such, but it had no enchantment on it! The soul gem I had used to enchant was gone as well, and I checked the other save just to make sure I hadn't reloaded the wrong one. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to enchant it again, but lo and behold, I activated the alter and the staff was available for enchanting. It was still named "The Banstick", but otherwise the process was the same as usual.

So it seems that if you get sick of whatever enchantment you have on the staff, you can re-enchant it by following this process:
1 - Save your game.
2 - Drop the enchanted staff.
3 - Reload the save you just made.
4 - Enchant as usual.

As far as I know, this makes the Staff of the Everscamp the only re-enchantable weapon in the game, as well as the only enchantable staff in the game. The enchantment I listed above leaves you with 18 casts/attacks. Coupled with Azura's star, this means you have a never-empty, custom-enchanted, re-enchantable staff. Pretty sweet!

It should also be of note that the staff uses up charges slightly differently than a normal enchanted weapon. With an enchanted sword, for example, if you take a swing but do not hit anything, you don't use the swords charge up. This is not the case with the staff. If you hit the attack button with your staff equipped, but whiff and hit nothing, you will still use up 1 attacks worth of charge.

This definitely should be added to the article if my result is duplicated by others. I am playing on the xbox 360.
[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:46, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

:Well, my experiment ended up failing, sorta. It doesn't matter if you save, then drop, then reload. Reloading your save regardless removes enchantments from the staff. I just realized that an above poster already discovered this while trying to enchant the staff. Doh. Anybody figured out a way to enchant the staff and remove the weird scripts on it preventing enchantments to stick?[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:55, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== Unnecessary sentence ==

"The new staff weighs 12 pounds which may result in encumbrance problems if you are close to your maximum when doing this." First: In what way is this a bug? A lot of quest items weigh more when the quest is finished. And second: 12 pounds isn't that much, so I really don't think encumbrance will be a problem. [[User:Icko|Icko]] 15:56, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
:It's not meant to be a bug of its own, just a warning that if you're taking advantage of the bug that lets you keep the staff, it'll be a little heavier than other staffs. Personally, I agree and don't feel the need to state that fact on the page...but then, I think most of that section could go. I have little use for an exploits, but especially not one that's as difficult to maintain as this one is. But maybe that's just me. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 22:41, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

== My Enchantment of the Staff ==

Not sure how welcome this will be on this page (feel free to delete it), but here goes. I enchanted my staff as such:

* Weakness to Magicka 100% for 1 second.

* [[Oblivion:Drain Health|Drain Health]] 100 points for 1 second.

* Shock Damage 24* points for 1 second.

I'm pretty sure it was 24 points of shock. I used a completely full [[Oblivion:Grand Soul Gem|Grand Soul Gem]] so whatever gets the charge up to as close to 85 as possible. Or less, if it gives you more charge (the shock damage is only there for appearances). Anyway, the reason I like this enchantment is because I named the staff "Cattle Prod", which I found funny. {{Unsigned|71.67.176.89|18 June 2009}}

:I'm sorry, but there are just too many useful combinations possible to start listing them. Also, you were correct in asking this on the talk page first. It doesn't have to be deleted. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 10:51, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Giving to martin ==

The article says that the staff is a daedric artifact - can it be given to Martin? This info should be included to the article. (And perhaps the info whether the possible enchanted version of the staff or the copies could be given, if the original one cannot be given.);:{{unsigned|88.114.30.82|20:24, 18 August 2009}}
: I checked the quest dialogue and found only the shrine artifacts can be given to Martin, nothing else has a topic so it wouldn't be able to be offered to him.{{unsigned|Griffinsong|20:37, 18 August 2009}}
::I don't believe it's possible to give it to Martin. I'll add it to the article because it seems important enough to mention. [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]]->[[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|T]]->[[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|C]]->[[Special:Emailuser/Wolok gro-Barok|E]] 01:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Hang on PS3 when carrying staff into certain areas ==

I've been carrying this staff around for quite awhile. However when doing the quest to get the Umbra ([[Oblivion:Clavicus_Vile|Clavicus_Vile]]) I ran into a major bug that I believe is related to this staff. After about 50 seconds or so of entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] the game would always freeze and lock up (music would still play but the PS3 was completely hung). I tried many work-arounds, including loading old saves and entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] before starting the quest but had no luck.

I stumbled on a post on-line (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=oblivion&thread.id=5683) suggesting that the staff might be implicated. To find out I finished the quest to return the staff then entered [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] and experienced no more difficulty with hung games. Therefore I suspect the interaction of this staff and [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] was somehow causing this bug! Also I experienced a similar bug in [[Oblivion:Fort_Grief]] during the quest [[Oblivion:Caught_in_the_Hunt]]. Specifically the game would freeze after about 25 seconds in zone 1 of the Hunters Run after having entered and left zone 2. I had the staff with me at this time and only managed to escape the bug by drinking potions to increase my speed so I could exit zone 1 before ~25 seconds elapsed.{{unsigned|210.84.43.43|12 September, 2009}}

I've had the exact same issue with the staff and both quests - however, I think this is directly tied to the everscamps themselves. Specifically, in Fort Grief, I was only able to leave zone 1 upon returning to it from zone 2 by first killing the scamps and then making a mad dash before they had all respawned. In Vindasel, I was able to kill the scamps before running through the poison gas room, confront Umbra and tell her to fight, then run back to the room prior to the poison gas room where the scamps were, kill them again, run back and one-shot Umbra with the difficulty bottomed out, and then run back towards the entrance to get just past the poison gas room again.

And despite all that, I don't have Umbra the sword, because the time it takes to loot the body adds just enough time to cause my game to crash before I see the poison gas room on my way back out for the last time -_-

All in all, I'd rather keep the scamps, but my opinion on this might change if this happens once again.

== Damage is on touch? (Xbox 360) ==

About a year ago, I was messing around with enchanting the staff, and I discovered that the enchantments (fire damage at least, that's all I tested) have no range! I just thought I'd mention this, as I didn't see it posted anywhere yet.

I'll confirm this once I get around to doing the quest again.

Has anybody else experienced this?

Oblivion talk:Staff of the Everscamp

2010-01-31T05:00:59Z

Jesseguy1: /* Huh? */

==Keeping the Staff==
If you abuse the glitch to keep the Staff, do the Scamps still follow you? {{unsigned|80.73.215.109}}
:I doubt it. Once you get the appropriate quest message, the scripts for the Everscamps likely bind them to the place. They still respawn, so you may go back any time to level your skills. [[User:Vesna|Vesna]] 14:24, 29 March 2008 (EDT)
::They do i did it {{unsigned|68.193.144.109}}
::: The scamps no longer follow you and you lose the -20 speed. {{unsigned|88.110.44.68}}

== Increasing Attributes ==

I've just taken a look at the staff's scripting. It uses the <code>modav</code> command to add the speed penalty to the player. It does indeed turn a stat red in the skill list but does ''not'' let the player gain any skill points if the skill was previously at 100. I tested this using my current character with an armorer skill of 100. I used <code>modav</code> to add a -20 penalty to his armorer skill. The skill turned red in the list and I no longer had the mastery perk (my hammers started breaking). I used <code>tdt</code> with info screen 10 to show me the current level of the skills and started repairing my armor. About 20 repairs later the armorer stat hadn't budged an inch. This is obviously not done with the staff but there's no reason it should behave any differently. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 01:05, 31 March 2008 (EDT)
I feel that you may have taken the wrong apporach since what your example tested was about skills thus not necesairly related to attributes. I may be wrong but this seems very familiar to the felldew exploit. I will try to raise my stats similarly but does anyone know a definite answer? I have seen somewhat unreliable places online say similar to above.
:: Confirmed: in version 1.2.0416‎ whenever you level up you see your actual speed, without the penalty from the staff, and you cannot raise it above 100 (I tried just to be completely sure.) May want to put that in the article for the curious. --[[User:Nocturnal|Nocturnal]] 18:54, 28 November 2009 (UTC)

==Enchanting==

--Is it possible to use a restore/fortify speed enchantment to return to previous level? Also, after the staff has been enchanted at an altar, can the staff be dropped (due to it's new form ID)? {{unsigned|81.153.37.99}}
:You can't enchant quest items to begin with so the short answer is no. --[[User:Volanaro|Volanaro]] 13:24, 2 May 2008 (EDT)

:In fact the staff of the everscamp can be enchanted once glitched to keep --[[User:Tabloes|Tabloes]]

I think the point of the question is "if you have exploited the glitch (or possibly if you finish the quest normally) will the -20pts reduction to your Speed be reversed?" and I am also eager to know. [[User:The-manta|The-manta]] 13:23, 20 June 2008 (EDT)

== Keep the staff, but you can drop it ! ==

Ok, First,'''If you chosse to do this, you will sacrifice the ring you get as an award.''' Now to do this go to dark something cave. When you get the message saying you do not have the feeling to have it, just leave. Now you can drop it! But if you drop as they are following, they will continue to follow until you kill them. Then they will respawn at the staff

And what is the point of doing this? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:39, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

It's true; this way lets you keep the scamps, if you want them but don't want to carry the staff around all the time. I left the cave after getting that message. The staff now weighs 12 and I can drop it, and the scamps still follow me around. If I want to get rid of them for a little while, I put the staff in a chest in my house. The scamps will follow me for a bit, but eventually they "forget" about me and stop following me. When I want them again, I just have to retrieve the staff from my house and fast-travel somewhere, and they'll reappear at my side. This is useful if, like me, you want to keep the scamps as pets (or minions) and don't care about the speed reduction. The scamps can also be useful occasionally, as distractions and such. I intend to keep them with me through the rest of the game. (Tested on Xbox 360.)

== Good to train Marksman ==

I don't see why Marksman shouldn't be included in the list of ways to train with this staff. It is easier to train Marksman with the Everscamps than training Armorer o.O --[[User:Matthewest|Matthewest]] •[[User_Talk:Matthewest|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Matthewest|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Matthewest|E]]• 00:10, 9 July 2008 (EDT)
:If you think there are other suggestions that should not be in the list, then perhaps they need to be removed, with an explanation of why the suggestions are not relevant. But the existence of one less-than-helpful entry in the list is not a justification for expanding the list with other unhelpful entries. Given that the tip says "such as" the list should just provide a few examples, instead of overloading readers with an unnecessary, comprehensive list of every possible way to attack an Everscamp. The tip provides a link to an article where more complete information is appropriate. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]][[User_talk:Nephele|Talk]] 00:52, 9 July 2008 (EDT)

==Extreme usefulness==
Does anyone else think that aside from the fact the Scamps are useful for training skills, they have tons of other good uses? The article currently says they become less useful at higher levels. At higher levels, ranged enemies become even more annoying, and the Scamps, in my opinion, are useful to draw attention away or get in the way of arrows. [[User:Dr. Kilereren|Dr. Kilereren]] 22:50, 13 July 2008 (EDT)

:You're absolutely correct. Please feel free to update the article if you feel it needs changed. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 11:58, 20 July 2008 (EDT)

==Scamps will not fight==
Mah scamps will not fight for me!! WHat to do?
'TACS {{unsigned|71.92.118.204}}

:Do my glitch called "Keep the Staff...But you can drop it!" Also it could be the scamps are so weak the they die in one hit. {{unsigned|68.193.151.52}}

The scamps will only fight if attacked or if you cast command creature on them. What does your glitch have to do with the question? Are you saying the scamps act as followers (attacking whoever attacks you) once you use the glitch? [[User:72.245.29.145|72.245.29.145]] 23:42, 30 March 2009 (EDT)

==Keeping the Staff / XBOX 360==
I thought it might be important to note that on my Xbox w/ Shivering Isles expansion, placing the staff into a container was not enough. I had to specifically place it into a container (corpse in this case) while at the altar itself. Placing it in any corpse, container near the altar (but clearly not the altar) brought no result.

In this case I used the body of an everscamp, but had to be quick about it (they respawn fast).

Quick Update:
I've also noticed on my system that by completing the quest and having it properly update:

- The Scamps do not follow you, they wander aimlessly around the Altar.
- Killing a scamp causes it to respawn near its corpse, not the staff.
- The scamps upon leaving, slowly walk back to the cave.

When not completing the final quest step:

- The Scamps continue to follow you normally.
- But you loose the chance of the reward. {{unsigned|66.222.240.78|13 September 2008}}

== Huh? ==

if u drop it can u come back to get it?

Nope. You have to put it in a container. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 05:00, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

== You Can Get Away with Murder! ==

:''(Following moved here from [[Oblivion:Glitches/Proposed]])''
If you have the Staff of the Everscamp past the "Whom Gods Annoy" quest, as you know, it can be enchanted with effects like any weapon. What you may not know, is that using the staff on people is not considered an act of aggression at all! Whether you enchant it with Damage Health or Disintegrate Weapon/Armor, no one will attack you. You will still get a point for murder, but no bounty. So it's a good way to rack up murder points!

Note: As it says in the other articles about the Staff, do not drop it anywhere, you wont be able to pick it up again. It can go into and out of containers without a problem. And don't save with the Staff on screen, upon the load of that file, it will disappear.

Note2: Enchanting the Staff and dropping it will not allow you to pick it up once dropped. I'm sure this is common knowledge, but I haven't seen it written anywhere.

Actually, I'm messing with it a bit right now. So far, this is what I've came up with.

- Trying to dupe the *UNenchanted* Staff, via the Skull will not work. The Staff wont be listed in the clone's inventory.
- If you place an ENchanted version of the Staff in a corpse, and then loot the corpse's clone, it will be in the clone's body as an unenchanted staff, but it will have the same name as whatever you called the enchanted Staff.

- On my first try, I got the duped Staff from the clone, so I tried to drop it to see if it lost its scripts. I was actually able to pick it up after dropping. I even went into the corpse's body and took the original Staff. It lost the enchant I gave it, and still couldn't be picked up from the ground like normal. I tried using scrolls to dupe the "new" Staff, but it didn't dupe.
- I tried saving with the duped Staff extended, to see if it wouldn't cause any harm, but it froze upon the load.

- Since then I haven't been able to properly dupe the Staff.
- When I tried duping the Staff again, occasionally upon a reload to steal from the clone, it would disappear from my, the clone's, and the corpse's inventory. I had to go back to an earlier load for the staff to reappear.
- Due to that, I haven't been able to go much further since it keeps happening.

- Apparently, reloading the game negates the enchantment it has, even if it's in a container somewhere. So I suppose other than trying to make a staff that can be dropped and picked up, there isn't a point to trying to dupe it. Though the topic point, the free killing still works.

== Interesting enchanting glitch - you can enchant the staff a second time if you desire (xbox 360) ==

I just finished the quest, exploited the glitch by storing the staff in a container instead of dropping it on the alter, and thusly have the Staff of the Everscamp in my possession as an enchantable item.

I enchanted the staff to be a mage-destroyer. I call it the Banstick, lol:

Absorb Health 10pt

Fire Damage 20pt

Weakness to Magic 100% @ 2sec

Soul Trap @ 1sec

Works pretty well. Anyways, I made a save before enchanting and after enchanting. After trying the staff out on some unsuspecting mage scholars, I reloaded my post-enchanting save. I then experimented with dropping it and attempting to pick it up or move it. I got the usual message saying I couldn't remove it from the shrine, but I could move it around the room. It is pretty clear that you can't drop it and then pick it back up, so I reloaded my post-enchanting save file.

My Banstick was still titled as such, but it had no enchantment on it! The soul gem I had used to enchant was gone as well, and I checked the other save just to make sure I hadn't reloaded the wrong one. I was afraid I wouldn't be able to enchant it again, but lo and behold, I activated the alter and the staff was available for enchanting. It was still named "The Banstick", but otherwise the process was the same as usual.

So it seems that if you get sick of whatever enchantment you have on the staff, you can re-enchant it by following this process:
1 - Save your game.
2 - Drop the enchanted staff.
3 - Reload the save you just made.
4 - Enchant as usual.

As far as I know, this makes the Staff of the Everscamp the only re-enchantable weapon in the game, as well as the only enchantable staff in the game. The enchantment I listed above leaves you with 18 casts/attacks. Coupled with Azura's star, this means you have a never-empty, custom-enchanted, re-enchantable staff. Pretty sweet!

It should also be of note that the staff uses up charges slightly differently than a normal enchanted weapon. With an enchanted sword, for example, if you take a swing but do not hit anything, you don't use the swords charge up. This is not the case with the staff. If you hit the attack button with your staff equipped, but whiff and hit nothing, you will still use up 1 attacks worth of charge.

This definitely should be added to the article if my result is duplicated by others. I am playing on the xbox 360.
[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:46, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

:Well, my experiment ended up failing, sorta. It doesn't matter if you save, then drop, then reload. Reloading your save regardless removes enchantments from the staff. I just realized that an above poster already discovered this while trying to enchant the staff. Doh. Anybody figured out a way to enchant the staff and remove the weird scripts on it preventing enchantments to stick?[[User:Psychedelicious|Psychedelicious]] 01:55, 18 May 2009 (EDT)

== Unnecessary sentence ==

"The new staff weighs 12 pounds which may result in encumbrance problems if you are close to your maximum when doing this." First: In what way is this a bug? A lot of quest items weigh more when the quest is finished. And second: 12 pounds isn't that much, so I really don't think encumbrance will be a problem. [[User:Icko|Icko]] 15:56, 24 May 2009 (EDT)
:It's not meant to be a bug of its own, just a warning that if you're taking advantage of the bug that lets you keep the staff, it'll be a little heavier than other staffs. Personally, I agree and don't feel the need to state that fact on the page...but then, I think most of that section could go. I have little use for an exploits, but especially not one that's as difficult to maintain as this one is. But maybe that's just me. --[[User:RobinHood70|Robin Hood]] ([[User_talk:RobinHood70|Talk]] • [[Special:Emailuser/RobinHood70|E-mail]] • [[Special:Contributions/RobinHood70|Contribs]]) 22:41, 24 May 2009 (EDT)

== My Enchantment of the Staff ==

Not sure how welcome this will be on this page (feel free to delete it), but here goes. I enchanted my staff as such:

* Weakness to Magicka 100% for 1 second.

* [[Oblivion:Drain Health|Drain Health]] 100 points for 1 second.

* Shock Damage 24* points for 1 second.

I'm pretty sure it was 24 points of shock. I used a completely full [[Oblivion:Grand Soul Gem|Grand Soul Gem]] so whatever gets the charge up to as close to 85 as possible. Or less, if it gives you more charge (the shock damage is only there for appearances). Anyway, the reason I like this enchantment is because I named the staff "Cattle Prod", which I found funny. {{Unsigned|71.67.176.89|18 June 2009}}

:I'm sorry, but there are just too many useful combinations possible to start listing them. Also, you were correct in asking this on the talk page first. It doesn't have to be deleted. --[[User:Timenn|Timenn]] < [[User_talk:Timenn|talk]] > 10:51, 19 June 2009 (EDT)

== Giving to martin ==

The article says that the staff is a daedric artifact - can it be given to Martin? This info should be included to the article. (And perhaps the info whether the possible enchanted version of the staff or the copies could be given, if the original one cannot be given.);:{{unsigned|88.114.30.82|20:24, 18 August 2009}}
: I checked the quest dialogue and found only the shrine artifacts can be given to Martin, nothing else has a topic so it wouldn't be able to be offered to him.{{unsigned|Griffinsong|20:37, 18 August 2009}}
::I don't believe it's possible to give it to Martin. I'll add it to the article because it seems important enough to mention. [[User:Wolok gro-Barok|Wolok gro-Barok]]->[[User_Talk:Wolok gro-Barok|T]]->[[Special:Contributions/Wolok gro-Barok|C]]->[[Special:Emailuser/Wolok gro-Barok|E]] 01:05, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

== Hang on PS3 when carrying staff into certain areas ==

I've been carrying this staff around for quite awhile. However when doing the quest to get the Umbra ([[Oblivion:Clavicus_Vile|Clavicus_Vile]]) I ran into a major bug that I believe is related to this staff. After about 50 seconds or so of entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] the game would always freeze and lock up (music would still play but the PS3 was completely hung). I tried many work-arounds, including loading old saves and entering [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] before starting the quest but had no luck.

I stumbled on a post on-line (http://boardsus.playstation.com/playstation/board/message?board.id=oblivion&thread.id=5683) suggesting that the staff might be implicated. To find out I finished the quest to return the staff then entered [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] and experienced no more difficulty with hung games. Therefore I suspect the interaction of this staff and [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]] was somehow causing this bug! Also I experienced a similar bug in [[Oblivion:Fort_Grief]] during the quest [[Oblivion:Caught_in_the_Hunt]]. Specifically the game would freeze after about 25 seconds in zone 1 of the Hunters Run after having entered and left zone 2. I had the staff with me at this time and only managed to escape the bug by drinking potions to increase my speed so I could exit zone 1 before ~25 seconds elapsed.{{unsigned|210.84.43.43|12 September, 2009}}

I've had the exact same issue with the staff and both quests - however, I think this is directly tied to the everscamps themselves. Specifically, in Fort Grief, I was only able to leave zone 1 upon returning to it from zone 2 by first killing the scamps and then making a mad dash before they had all respawned. In Vindasel, I was able to kill the scamps before running through the poison gas room, confront Umbra and tell her to fight, then run back to the room prior to the poison gas room where the scamps were, kill them again, run back and one-shot Umbra with the difficulty bottomed out, and then run back towards the entrance to get just past the poison gas room again.

And despite all that, I don't have Umbra the sword, because the time it takes to loot the body adds just enough time to cause my game to crash before I see the poison gas room on my way back out for the last time -_-

All in all, I'd rather keep the scamps, but my opinion on this might change if this happens once again.

Oblivion talk:Hundolin

2010-01-29T18:35:00Z

Jesseguy1: /* Disappearing Hundolin? */

"i was wondering bout what hundolin says he says if you need money go see" and then someones name which i cant remember who does he say about and can you get money from them? it would be useful 2 know as it would aid players whose game has just begun.
: I think you must mean the line "I needed some cash, so I went to see Jensine." It's not specific to Hundolin; any Dunmer, Altmer or Bosmer may come out and say it pretty much at random. We're planning to mention this sort of thing on Jensine's page eventually as part of the NPC Redesign project, but probably not on the pages of the people that say it. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 16:33, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

== Hundolin attacks ==

I was messing around on Oblivion and because the chest next to Hundolin is locked I jokingly walked up to him and pulled a knife to be intimidating. He started casting all these spells and attacking with a dagger before the guards started chasing him. After which was an hour long goose chase of me standing in the caged arena entrance watching outside as Hundolin ran by followed by guards shouting out their usual taunts (Am I supposed to be impressed?). Is it normal for an NPC to react this way just by drawing a knife towards them yet not talking to them? {{unsigned|24.179.130.110|7 August 2008}}

:Its probally because he has a pretty high aggresion he always attacks me when im attacking guards gets really annoying since hes essential but did you talk to him or do anything else he might have had his disposition lowered since you had your dagger out [[User:Jay480|Jay480]] 18:32, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

''(moved from the article)''
Also, if you come out of the arena or the Bloodworks wielding a weapon, Hundolin will attack you. However, since he is a major character, he can only be knocked unconcious.
: In both cases you must have an incredibly low disposition with him. He has an aggression of only 20 so you need a disposition of 15 to get this to occur. Most people simply aren't going to get this to happen. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 03:52, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Ripping off Hundolin ==

After gaining an invisibility potion, spell or item, you can use it to turn invisible, then go in and pick the lock on Hundolin's cash box. Alternativly, just wait till he leaves the Arena at night sneak in, close the double doors so the guard does not see you and pick the lock on the box. This will net you 3,000 septims. :-) [[User:Celestron|Celestron]] 11:35, 8 November 2008 (EST)

Whenever I do it, I only get 500 septims... Maybe it's a leveled chest?

Also, an easier way to get these is to sneak on the opposite side of the chest; Make sure you're right up against the chest though. (If you take a step back, he'll see you) [[Special:Contributions/99.242.160.8|99.242.160.8]] 17:13, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

True, the Arena Lock-box only contains 500 gold. No it is not leveled.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 17:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

== Hundolin unconsious ==

i was messing tryting to get money on oblivion for the 360 and stole from the arena lock box and obiopusley i was caut and sent to jail (having kept the money lol) i went back to try it again and as i went back Hundolin ran at me (the gaurds were not) and tryed to kill me bare handed then i ran away and he ran at the imperial gaurd nearby and they started to fight i , amused watched the fight and Hundolin got killed easily. i went to see what he had on him and its still only came up as the talking command even though he was dead. as i tried to speak to him it said " Hundolin is uncponsious" i then waited and he started to run back to the arena on the way back he ran into a wall and half of his body went right through it !!!

any one have the same problem????

Hundolin is essential so he cannot die, just become unconscious. As for him being in a wall wait outside the cell for 24 hours,--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 18:16, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

== Ripping off Hundolin(cont.) ==

Actually when I looted the cash box for the arena, I was only level five, I got 500 septims out of it. I think the amount could be level dependent or maybe it depends on if you've bet on a match or not. I haven't bet on anything and also if you loot the box you can use it as an easy to get to non-respawning chest: means your stuff doesnt dissapear. :D

Nope, it is a completely fixed amount of gold.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 18:17, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

== Disappearing Hundolin? ==

I bet on some arena matches a couple game days ago... Then I went to fight Umbra, but decided that I probably couldn't kill her at my level (8). So I went back to to arena, and Owyn says I can't compete because I have a bet down on another combatant. Hundolin isn't there (its 2:00PM so he should be there), and when I go into the stands, the combatants I bet on before are still there (one's dead). Also, I'm pretty sure I lost the last bet, if it matters.

I've given all the info I thought might be relevant, but just ask if you think I've left something out that might be important. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 18:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

If you are on the PC you can use the console but on xbox or PS3 try waiting outside the cell for 24 hours and then returning.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 18:12, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks a lot, waiting in a different cell worked. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 18:35, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Oblivion talk:Hundolin

2010-01-29T18:07:45Z

Jesseguy1: /* Disappearing Hundolin? */ new section

"i was wondering bout what hundolin says he says if you need money go see" and then someones name which i cant remember who does he say about and can you get money from them? it would be useful 2 know as it would aid players whose game has just begun.
: I think you must mean the line "I needed some cash, so I went to see Jensine." It's not specific to Hundolin; any Dunmer, Altmer or Bosmer may come out and say it pretty much at random. We're planning to mention this sort of thing on Jensine's page eventually as part of the NPC Redesign project, but probably not on the pages of the people that say it. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 16:33, 7 April 2008 (EDT)

== Hundolin attacks ==

I was messing around on Oblivion and because the chest next to Hundolin is locked I jokingly walked up to him and pulled a knife to be intimidating. He started casting all these spells and attacking with a dagger before the guards started chasing him. After which was an hour long goose chase of me standing in the caged arena entrance watching outside as Hundolin ran by followed by guards shouting out their usual taunts (Am I supposed to be impressed?). Is it normal for an NPC to react this way just by drawing a knife towards them yet not talking to them? {{unsigned|24.179.130.110|7 August 2008}}

:Its probally because he has a pretty high aggresion he always attacks me when im attacking guards gets really annoying since hes essential but did you talk to him or do anything else he might have had his disposition lowered since you had your dagger out [[User:Jay480|Jay480]] 18:32, 6 August 2008 (EDT)

''(moved from the article)''
Also, if you come out of the arena or the Bloodworks wielding a weapon, Hundolin will attack you. However, since he is a major character, he can only be knocked unconcious.
: In both cases you must have an incredibly low disposition with him. He has an aggression of only 20 so you need a disposition of 15 to get this to occur. Most people simply aren't going to get this to happen. –[[User:Rpeh|Rpeh]]•[[User_Talk:Rpeh|T]]•[[Special:Contributions/Rpeh|C]]•[[Special:Emailuser/Rpeh|E]]• 03:52, 11 September 2008 (EDT)

== Ripping off Hundolin ==

After gaining an invisibility potion, spell or item, you can use it to turn invisible, then go in and pick the lock on Hundolin's cash box. Alternativly, just wait till he leaves the Arena at night sneak in, close the double doors so the guard does not see you and pick the lock on the box. This will net you 3,000 septims. :-) [[User:Celestron|Celestron]] 11:35, 8 November 2008 (EST)

Whenever I do it, I only get 500 septims... Maybe it's a leveled chest?

Also, an easier way to get these is to sneak on the opposite side of the chest; Make sure you're right up against the chest though. (If you take a step back, he'll see you) [[Special:Contributions/99.242.160.8|99.242.160.8]] 17:13, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

True, the Arena Lock-box only contains 500 gold. No it is not leveled.--[[User:Corevette789|Corevette789]] 17:39, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

== Hundolin unconsious ==

i was messing tryting to get money on oblivion for the 360 and stole from the arena lock box and obiopusley i was caut and sent to jail (having kept the money lol) i went back to try it again and as i went back Hundolin ran at me (the gaurds were not) and tryed to kill me bare handed then i ran away and he ran at the imperial gaurd nearby and they started to fight i , amused watched the fight and Hundolin got killed easily. i went to see what he had on him and its still only came up as the talking command even though he was dead. as i tried to speak to him it said " Hundolin is uncponsious" i then waited and he started to run back to the arena on the way back he ran into a wall and half of his body went right through it !!!

any one have the same problem????

== Ripping off Hundolin(cont.) ==

Actually when I looted the cash box for the arena, I was only level five, I got 500 septims out of it. I think the amount could be level dependent or maybe it depends on if you've bet on a match or not. I haven't bet on anything and also if you loot the box you can use it as an easy to get to non-respawning chest: means your stuff doesnt dissapear. :D

== Disappearing Hundolin? ==

I bet on some arena matches a couple game days ago... Then I went to fight Umbra, but decided that I probably couldn't kill her at my level (8). So I went back to to arena, and Owyn says I can't compete because I have a bet down on another combatant. Hundolin isn't there (its 2:00PM so he should be there), and when I go into the stands, the combatants I bet on before are still there (one's dead). Also, I'm pretty sure I lost the last bet, if it matters.

I've given all the info I thought might be relevant, but just ask if you think I've left something out that might be important. [[User:Jesseguy1|Jesseguy1]] 18:07, 29 January 2010 (UTC)