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Oblivion:Easter Eggs

2007-05-25T18:20:42Z

FMan: /* References Unrelated to ''TES'' */ added a reference, darkly

{{Template:Oblivion Trail}} [[Category:Semi Protection|{{PAGENAME}}]]

==Familiar Faces==
;M'aiq the Liar
[[Oblivion:M'aiq the Liar|M'aiq the Liar]], who first appeared in [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]], makes random appearances outside of [[Oblivion:Anvil|Anvil]] and [[Oblivion:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]]. His commentary is filled with humorous remarks, most of which are allusions to popular subjects of discussion, or gripes, on the official forums. He also makes a comment on Fable and its over-hype.

;Arvena Thelas
Sister to [[Morrowind:Drarayne Thelas|Drarayne Thelas]], of Morrowind fame, [[Oblivion:Arvena Thelas|Arvena]] can be found in the city of [[Oblivion:Anvil|Anvil]]. The first mission of the Anvil Fighters Guild prompts you to, contrary to the Morrowind mission, defend the rats in her home from being destroyed.

;Svenja Snow-Song
By travelling to [[Oblivion:Dive Rock|Dive Rock]] it is possible to obtain [[Tamriel:Books/Agnar's Journal|Agnar's Journal]], belonging to Svenja's husband. The journal tells of Agnar's ascent to the position of Chieftain of [[Bloodmoon:Thirsk|Thirsk]] following the departure of the Nerevarine, his marriage to Svenja, and their quest to destroy the Udyrfrykte Matron, mother of the [[Bloodmoon:Udyrfrykte|Udyrfrykte]], a foul creature which ravaged Thirsk in [[Bloodmoon:Bloodmoon|Bloodmoon]].

;House Hlaalu
A reference to one of the [[Tamriel:House Hlaalu|Great Houses]] of Morrowind, [[Oblivion:Falanu Hlaalu|Falanu Hlaalu]] openly admits to having moved to [[Oblivion:Skingrad|Skingrad]] from [[Tamriel:Morrowind|Morrowind]]. Her relation to the House is unknown, although speaking to her about Skingrad opens the option for a discussion on certain types of fines, specifically those laden upon practicioners of necrophilia.
:Falanu's Skingrad shop was not her first, evidence of which may be found near [[Oblivion:Memorial Cave|Memorial Cave]] in the form of a charred building and empty well. The only remaining relics are a sign identifying the husk of a building as the old "All Things Alchemical" and two Resist Fire potions.

;Creeper
The shapeshifting, hound-like companion of [[Tamriel:Clavicus Vile|Clavicus Vile]], Barbas, may very well have been Creeper, the legendary [[Morrowind:Cheats#Creeper Cheat|merchant Scamp]] of Morrowind, noting that he was once a "Scamp that deals with orcs".

;Camonna Tong
Two iron-clad Dunmer have taken up residence at [[Oblivion:Walker Camp|Walker Camp]], which lies slightly north of [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]], both of whom are agents of the [[Morrowind:Camonna Tong|Camonna Tong]], a clandestine organization centered in Morrowind. No explanation for their presence is given, although together they make a weekly delivery of [[Tamriel:Skooma|Skooma]] to a drop site near [[Oblivion:Kingscrest Cavern|Kingscrest Cavern]].

==Unfinished Quests==
* In the lake slightly West of [[Oblivion:Fort Nikel|Fort Nikel]] lies a corpse identified as that of ''{{Linkable Entry|Nath Dyer}}''. On the corpse, you will find a primrose and an undelivered love letter written by Nath to a woman he is interested in courting. Unfortunately, it seems Nath never made it to the city to deliver his letter. In the construction set, there are two hidden names for this corpse, ''DeadLoverFortNikel'' and ''NathanMcDyer''. Therefore it is likely this corpse is named after Nathan McDyer, a Bethesda employee who was on the Quality Assurance team for Oblivion.
* Within the Arena Bloodworks, to the right of [[Oblivion:Owyn|Owyn]] and upon the ground, lies a letter from a woman - [[Oblivion:Branwen|Branwen]] - claiming to be his daughter. The letter states that, whether or not he likes it, Owyn will be forced to recognize her claim of kinship when she becomes Champion of the Arena. Branwen may be found in the [[Oblivion:Arena District|Arena District]] of the [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|Imperial City]], sparring with [[Oblivion:Saliith|Saliith]].
* Upon first entering the [[Oblivion:Market District|Market District]], a notice will appear in the upper left-hand corner of the screen reading "New Topic: Do you need couriers". Despite this, there exist no NPCs with whom this topic may be discussed.
**The topic's ID, "ImpExWork" [00025CF7], has no associated NPCs, and thus, it may not be used. The group also includes further entries: "ImpExAccept" [0025CF6], "ImpExReject" [00025CF4], "ImpExDeliveredLetter" [00025CF2], and "ImpExGiveLetter" [00025CF3], all of which are unassociated. The ID tag itself may have been intended as an easter egg, "ImpEx" appearing much like "FedEx", the ''Imperial Express Delivery Service'' and ''Federal Express Delivery Service''.
* [[Oblivion:Gilgondorin|Gilgondorin]], innkeeper of Silverhome-on-the-Water in [[Oblivion:Bravil|Bravil]], states that [[Oblivion:Dro'shanji|Dro'shanji]] has seen creatures around his house and that you should speak with him; however, Dro'shanji's home is quite normal, and he himself has no special dialogue options regardless of his disposition.
* Residents of [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] will often discuss the strange behavior of [[Oblivion:Eugal Belette|Eugal Bellete]]. A visit to his home will reveal a basement full of humanoid skulls and Mythic Dawn paraphanelia. Despite this discovery, he may not be reported, nor will he discuss the subject. Of all the Mythic Dawn "sleeper agents", Eugal is the only one whose behavior garners public attention.
* A common rumor in [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] speaks of "shady" dealings at The Oak and Crosier, a local inn. Entering the basement of said structure will spark the cave or ruin exploration music, despite being monster-free.
* In [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]] resides an Imperial couple - Jirolin and Ariela Doran - the former of whom, as noted in the Construction Set, appears to be connected with a quest that was cut from the final game. Apparently, Jirolin is under the impression that he is part Ogre, the legacy of a distant relation, and will ask the player to leave an offering of jewels near a local cave inhabited by Ogres in order to establish friendly contact with them. Seemingly, the Ogres allow Jorlin to enter their ranks, as a meal, at which time he must be rescued from his predicament. Nothing remains of the quest save the occasional script, random journal entries, and the cave itself: Rock Bottom Cave, whose in-game occupants were changed to Goblins in light of the quest's absence.
* Engaging in conversation with the Imperial woman at the Chestnut Handy Stables outside of the [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|Imperial City]] may lead to her referring to the fact that horses are missing from their pens. Although her partner in the stables, a female Orc of foul temperament, may have eaten them, there is also speculation that the missing beasts comprise the nearby herd of "wild horses" encountered on the plains.

==Prior ''Elder Scrolls'' Game References==
* The posters advertising the Arena - [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Image:ArenaTitle_Large.jpg here] - feature an image which is nearly identical to that of the box art of ''The Elder Scrolls: Arena'' - [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Image:NA_Arena_BoxArt.jpg comparison].
* At the conclusion of the [[Oblivion:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]] storyline arc, [[Oblivion:Modryn Oreyn|Modryn Oreyn]] will present you with the [[Oblivion:Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw|Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw]]. The item and Modryn's dialogue about it reference the [[Morrowind:Daedric Quests#Malacath's Quest|Malacath's Shrine quest]] in Morrowind, wherein the player is assigned to kill the last living member - ''supposedly'' - of the Oreyn line in order to acquire the Helm.
* At random, people in [[Oblivion:Skingrad|Skingrad]] will tell you a story about buying a sweetroll and being accosted by three thugs. They will then end their tale by saying "So I took that sweetroll and...". This same story was used in previous Elder Scrolls titles - notably, Morrowind - in determining the character class, when it is told and the player must choose what action is taken.
* A random NPC-to-NPC conversation concerns a new play entitled ''[[Tamriel:Books/Lusty Argonian Maid, The|The Lusty Argonian Maid]]''. The play made its debut in Morrowind as a rough-draft screenplay written by the eccentric [[Tamriel:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] noble, Crassius Curio. The book containing a scene from the play may be found throughout the game.
* [[Oblivion:Cloud Ruler Temple|Cloud Ruler Temple]], headquarters of the [[Tamriel:Blades|Blades]], houses a Redguard member by the name of Cyrus; interestingly enough, Cyrus was the name of the protagonist of [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]], a man also of [[Tamriel:Yokuda|Yokudan]] descent.
* In the [[Oblivion:Waterfront District|Waterfront District]], a crew of pirates sing and mentions a hero named Cyrus. This is probably related to the protagonist of [[Redguard:Redguard|Redguard]].
* The [[Oblivion:Waterfront District|Waterfront District]] of the [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|Imperial City]] is home to certain members of [[Bloodmoon:Raven Rock|Raven Rock]], a colony of the [[Bloodmoon:East Empire Company|East Empire Company]], since bankrupted. The Raven Rock colony, and the fate of it's citizens, featured prominently in the [[Bloodmoon:Bloodmoon|Bloodmoon]] expansion-pack.
* In Morrowind a unique amulet known as the "Amulet of Usheeja" existed, despite the lack of a corresponding NPC; this oversight was corrected in [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion]] with the addition of [[Oblivion:Usheeja|Usheeja]] as the guard at Umbacano's manor in the [[Oblivion:Talos Plaza District|Talos Plaza District]] of the Imperial City.
* In [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]], [[Oblivion:Aldos Othran|Aldos Othran]] may be heard singing a high-pitched song about the cliff racers of [[Tamriel:Vvardenfell|Vvardenfell]], whose presence was an annoyance to many [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]] players.
* Within [[Oblivion:Mankar Camoran|Mankar Camoran's]] Paradise, behind the large hill with the grotto, lies an island with a chest guarded by a spectral mudcrab. Supposedly the spirit of the [[Morrowind:Mudcrab Merchant|Mudcrab Merchant]] of Morrowind, it is larger and stronger than your average mudcrab and, like all ghosts, cannot be killed by normal weapons. Unfortunately, unlike the Morrowind version, this mudcrab will not communicate with the player.
* After you finish [[Oblivion:Sheogorath|Sheogorath]]'s quest involving a prank in [[Oblivion:Border Watch|Border Watch]], you can find a special issue of [[Oblivion:The Black Horse Courier|The Black Horse Courier]] entitled ''[[Oblivion:Rain of Burning Dogs!|Rain of Burning Dogs!]]''. When asked about the "weather anomaly", the local weather expert mentions "the occasional wayward mage crashing to the earth". This is a reference to Tarhiel in Morrowind (who was an [[Morrowind:Easter Eggs#Tarhiel|easter egg]] in that game).
* [[Image:ArenaCisternQuote.jpg|thumb|right|270px|Arena cistern quote.]] The health and magicka recovery cistern in the Arena Bloodworks is etched with a quote by Gaiden Shinji around the circumference; this self-same quote is the same line of text that first appears upon installing and running ''[[Arena:Arena|The Elder Scrolls: Arena]]''.
* In the [[Oblivion:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]] quest [[Oblivion:The Wandering Scholar|The Wandering Scholar]] you will be required to escort a female [[Tamriel:Altmer|High Elf]] named Elante of Alinor to [[Oblivion:Brittlerock Cave|Brittlerock Cave]] so that she might continue her study of the Daedra. This same woman makes an appearance in Morrowind, within the cave of Ibar-Dad - the tomb of Mordrin Hanin - wherein Elante is encountered as a hostile NPC; [[Tamriel:Books/Elante's Notes|her notes]] indicate that she was engaged in researching the Daedra therein.
* Some of the Goblins may be seen donning [[Morrowind:Item_Materials_and_Styles#Netch|Netch leather]] armor, as seen in Morrowind, which, unfortunately, cannot be retrieved from their corpses.
*In the Construction Set, the default name of the character is [[Tamriel:People_B#Bendu Olo|Bendu Olo]], a reference to a Colovian King who fought the [[Tamriel:Sload|Sload]].
* On rare occasion NPCs may be overheard discussing the acts of "Saint Jiub", who drove the Cliff Racers away from portions of Morrowind. This is, undoubtedly, referring to the fellow prisoner aboard ship in the introduction of [[Morrowind:Morrowind|Morrowind]], who is never seen again following such. This is very similar to the legend of Saint Patrick, who supposedly drove away all the snakes from Ireland.

==References Unrelated to ''TES''==
* While participating in [[Oblivion:An_Unexpected_Voyage|An Unexpected Voyage]], your character is given the opportunity to claim, unsuccessfully, to be the ship's cook, mimicking dialogue from the Steven Seagel movie ''Under Siege''.
* [[Oblivion:Lucien Lachance|Lucien Lachance]], the individual who recruits you into the Dark Brotherhood, is a charicature of Lucien Lacroix, a character on the Canadian television series ''Forever Knight''. Chronicling the journeys of an eight-hundred year old vampire, Nick Knight, ''Forever Knight'' introduced Lacroix as the creature who brought Nick into his dark family, as Lachance does the player character.
* Skjorta, a Nord clothing merchant in the city of [[Oblivion:Bruma|Bruma]], is appropriately dubbed, her name meaning "shirt" in Norwegian and Swedish.
*[[Oblivion:Jakben, Earl of Imbel|Jakben, Earl of Imbel]], a citizen of the [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|Imperial City]], was also given an equally clever name. By removing the appellation of "Earl" from his name, you are left with the ''JakbenImbel''. Divided properly it may read as ''Jak be nImbel'', or "Jack be nimble." As the famous thief Springheel Jak - a reference to Spring-Heeled-Jack [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spring_Heeled_Jack], a character from English forklore - his unique boots (granting a +50 Acrobatics) are quite useful for jumping over candlesticks.
* Mannimarco, leader of the Necromancer's, is revered as the "King of Worms", and was given his name in respect to the obscure Germanic tribe of the Marcomanni, who conquered what is now the City of Worms in southwestern Germany in the year 408.
* The in-game item "Blue Suede Shoes" are named in tribute to the classic ''Blue Suede Shoes'', a rock-and-roll standard written by Carl Perkins and performed by himself and numerous other artists, including Johnny Cash, Elvis Presley, The Beatles, Jimi Hendrix, and many more.
* [[Oblivion:A Shadow over Hackdirt|A Shadow over Hackdirt]], a quest initiated in [[Oblivion:Chorrol|Chorrol]], involves the mystery of a town's population which pays worship to unseen creatures known simply as "The Deep Ones", through the guidance of a "Bible of the Deep Ones". The scenario was closely modeled after [http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Shadow_Over_Innsmouth The Shadow Over Innsmouth], a story by H.P. Lovecraft in which a small New England town is populated with half-human creatures who worship beings that live under the sea, ''the Deep Ones''. Metallica fans may also recognize the story as it was told in ''The Thing That Should Not Be'', track three on ''Master of Puppets''. Furthermore, it is also an obvious reference to another Bethesda game, ''Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth'', whose content is also based on the works of H.P. Lovecraft- coincidentally, the same story (The Shadow Over Innsmouth), and not Call Of Cthulhu, despite the obvious similarities in the names.
*[[Oblivion:Nothing You Can Possess|Nothing You Can Possess]], the second Umbacano-granted quest, is named in reference to the first Indiana Jones movie ''Raiders of the Lost Ark'', wherein Indiana's nemesis, Doctor Rene Belloq, takes the Idol which Jones has risked his life retrieving, saying "Dr. Jones, again we see that there is nothing you can possess, which I cannot take away." Apart from the name, the content of the quest was also modeled after said scene.
*The quest [[Oblivion:Through A Nightmare, Darkly|Through A Nightmare, Darkly]] appears to have borrowed its title [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1_Corinthians_13#.22Through_a_Glass.2C_Darkly.22 from the Bible].
*The [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] quest [[Oblivion:Whodunit?|Whodunit?]] was based off the Agatha Christie book ''And Then There Were None'' [http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=142458&skip=yes]. The book revolves around a group of strangers, each of whom has committed a crime of some sort, who visit an island and are systematically slain, one by one.
*The Main Ingredient, home to Ogier Georick, is also home to two love letters: one desperate, one happy. Said letters may imply that Georick is the beneficiary of a rather rich love life, notably when coupled with the pick-up like lines he addresses female characters with. All of this, while perhaps circumstancial, is enough to warrant his name, Ogier, which mean "stallion" in Polish, the connotations of which are obvious.
* Fafnir, an in-game NPC, is an Imperial tax-collector, named for the greedy dragon of Nordic mythology in the Volsunga Saga.
* The concluding portion of the quest [[Oblivion:Where Spirits Have Lease|Where Spirits Have Lease]] begins with the completion of Lorgren Benirus' corpse, following the return of his skeletal hand. At this point he may be heard, prior to rising in lich form, to yell in triumph, "I live...again! Hahaha..." a reference to the movie ''Army of Darkness''.
* It has been suggested that the area where Umbra is located - Vindasel - is named in reference to actor [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin_Diesel Vin Diesel]. This may be the case, because [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pacifier The Pacifier] (starring Vin Diesel), takes place in Bethesda, Maryland, where [[General:Bethesda|Bethesda Softworks]] was originally located.
* Following the completion of the Fighters Guild quest [[Oblivion:Azani Blackheart (quest)|Azani Blackheart]], the rare in-game book [[Tamriel:Books/Palla|Palla]] may be acquired from Azani's bookcase. The book's content was written in a similar style, and with the same basic subject, as Vladimir Nabokov's ''Lolita''.
*In the [[Oblivion:Cheydinhal|Cheydinhal]] [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] sanctuary, there lives a NPC by the name of [[Oblivion:Antoinetta Marie|Antoinetta Marie]], an obvious reference to the Austrian-born French Queen of the 18th Century who was executed during the French Revolution. If you speak with her about 'rumors' she may talk about her being the next leader of the sanctuary.
* Within First Edition in the [[Oblivion:Market District|Market District]] of the [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|Imperial City]] there lies a scroll called the "Document of Puerile Banter". The item is named in tribute to a message board frequented by one of the game designers.
*[[Oblivion:The Forlorn Watchman (quest)|The Forlorn Watchman]] quest leads to the eventual acquisition of a ship's log telling of a mutiny in which the traitor "Gable" leads the crew against "Captain Laughton", all of which references the classic ''Mutiny on the Bounty'', in which actors Charles Laughton and Clark Gable played the titular roles of captain and chief of the mutineers, respectively.
* The [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] training room contains a single chest, wherein lie two books, one of which is entitled "The Gold Ribbon of Merit", an obvious allusion to Stephen Crane's masterpiece, ''The Red Badge of Courage''.
* The [[Oblivion:The Imperial City|Imperial City]]-based quest [[Oblivion:Unfriendly Competition|Unfriendly Competition]] leads the player into discovering the [[Tamriel:Books/Macabre Manifest|Macabre Manifest]], a catalog of those recently perished. One of its entries concerns an "Oford Gabings", an anagram of [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frodo_Baggins Frodo Baggins] and lists several items that Frodo carried during ''[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lord_of_the_Rings The Lord of the Rings]'' saga, including a "travel cloak with silver and green leaf fastener", an "enchanted shortsword with inlaid writing", a "leather bound travel journal", and a "gold ring with inscription (cursed?)".
* A further ''Lord of the Rings'' reference, that cannot normally be seen in-game, is that of the NPC Boromir. Oddly, Boromir appears as a woman, despite being assigned a male body. That much aside, Boromir fits the character type as a Nord bedecked in a full set of Elven Armor. Boromir is listed under form ID 0002319F and may be viewed by using the [[Oblivion:Console|console]].
* Yet another reference to J.R.R. Tolkien's books: There lives a Nord called Havilstein Hoar-Blood at [[Oblivion:Gnoll Mountain|Gnoll Mountain]], he has a wolf named "Redmaw" as companion. "Redmaw" is a direct translation of "Carcharoth", which is a mighty wolf known from Tolkien's book "The Silmarillion".
* Certain shops in the [[Oblivion: Imperial City|Imperial City]] appear to have been named in honor of those restaurants native to Maryland, home of Bethesda Softworks. Amongst such are The Main Ingredient and Three Brothers.
* The quest, [[Oblivion:Whom Gods Annoy|Whom Gods Annoy]] is similarly named, strikingly so, to a classic ''Star Trek'' episode, [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whom_Gods_Destroy Whom Gods Destroy]. Both titles were likely derived from the works of [http://www.quotationspage.com/quote/26869.html Euripides], who said, "Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."
* Widely debated is the source of inspiration for the [[Oblivion:Thieves Guild|Thieves Guild's]] leader, the [[Oblivion:Gray Fox|Gray Fox]], but a few theories of which are as follows:
:#The Gray Fox might be a reference to the "gentleman bandit" Bill Miner, an infamous train-robber who plagued Canada's CPR rail-line and coined the phrase, "Hands up." He was given the name "Gray Fox" due to his age, being in his late fifties. A movie concerning his deeds was released in 1982 under the title ''The Gray Fox''.
:#The Gray Fox may be based off the leader of a band of thieves in ''The Court Jester'' named "The Black Fox".
:#The Gray Fox may be a reference to the Dread Pirate Roberts from [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_Bride_%28film%29 The Princess Bride]. Both inherited their title and reputation from a line of anonymous precursors, both wore masks to hide their true identities, and both revealed themselves to their true love (a princess and a countess) who thought them dead. Furthermore, many of the Gray Fox's lines are similar to those of the Dread Pirate Roberts. (ie - "I am not the first Gray Fox" and "I am no one to be trifled with.")
* The item dubbed "Mother's Head" , from the quest "Following a Lead", is a reference from the slasher movie "Friday the 13th: part 2". Jason (the deranged and invulnerable killer) talks to the head of his decapitated mother, who was killed in an earlier movie.
* The Ayleid ruin Carmala may be named after a book called Carmilla, as the ruin contains vampires and the book is about a family who, one night, witnesses a cart crash and takes in a woman by the name of Carmilla, whom they later find out is an ancient vampire.
* [[Oblivion:Uriel Septim VII|Uriel Septim VII]] quotes from Shakespeare's ''[http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar_(play)#Act_II Julius Caesar]'' (Act II, sc. ii) when asked if he is afraid to die during the [[Oblivion:Escape From Prison|tutorial]]: "death, a necessary end, will come when it will come".
* A possible reference to Indiana Jones: The Temple of Doom is in the ruin [[Oblivion:Culotte|Culotte]]. When you first enter, you encounter no enemies. At the end of the ruin you find an Ayleid Statue for [[Oblivion:The Collector|The Collector]] quest. Picking it up makes a set of zombies spawn and you have to fight your way through the zombies to get back to the entrance. This could be a reference to the beginning of Temple of Doom.

==Miscellaneous==
* NPCs often speak of land dreugh, saying: ''"Have you seen a land dreugh? We call them 'Billies.' Don't know why. Steer clear of them, though."'' The seemingly colloquial name for the land dreugh was obtained, in fact, from the development team. An excerpt from a member explaining such reads: ''"The Oblivion bestiary is quite large and varied. You’ll see the return of old Elder Scrolls favourites, plus the addition of more than a few new critters to smash or sneak by, whatever your preference. One of our new favourite guys we’ve nicknamed 'Codename: Billy.' He’s a really awesome variation on a popular creature from past Elder Scrolls games."''
* At the bottom of the cliff below [[Oblivion:Dive Rock|Dive Rock]] is the broken body of a dead man. Searching his body will reveal a note from his daughter, warning him to be careful climbing the mountain, as he is quite clumsy. Apparently his daughter's caution was well-placed.
* [[Oblivion:Crayfish Cave|Crayfish Cave]] is filled with sections given silly titles: Crayfish Soggybottom, Crayfish Capillaries, and so on. In the former - Crayfish Soggybottom - there may be found a small room, within which numerous beer bottles are stashed in the corners, and a drowned goblin lying under an empty beer keg.
* [[Oblivion:Weebam-Na|Weebam-Na]], an NPC residing in [[Oblivion:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]], will tell, if prompted, of a man who sought riches through a new chain of restaurants specializing in the preparation of rat. His exotic menu included such delicacies as "Rat Ragu with Powdered Deer Penis", amongst others.
* East-southeast across from the bay near [[Oblivion:Bravil|Bravil]] lies a small, unmarked bridge; underneath may be discovered the remains of a [[Oblivion:Monsters#Dead|{{Linkable Entry|Dead Troll}}]] and ''[[Oblivion:Notes#A Poorly Scrawled Note|A Poorly Scrawled Note]]'' explaining its failure as a bridge troll:
::Mee wurst troll evurr
::nobuddy pay brijj tole
::me nott sceary enuf
::mee gett drunc an kil sellf
::troll droun
:This is reminiscent of the children's fairy tale "Billy Goats Gruff."
* The second room past the entrance of Arkvad's Tower is full of furniture stuck to the ceiling. The items on the tables and shelves may be knocked down by shooting an arrow at them, a testament to the poor quality of glue used in the room.
*After having completed the [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] quest [[Oblivion:Next of Kin|Next of Kin]], revisiting [[Oblivion:Applewatch|Applewatch]] will grant you a chance to look over the graves of the Draconis family. Inspecting that of Perennia, the mother, will reveal the text "May whoever took her life be forever cursed", following which you will be attacked by her ghost.
*Exclusive to the [[Oblivion:Frostcrag_Spire|Wizard's Tower]] plugin, a large Frost Atronach may be observed within the Ice Hand extruding from the floor by standing upon such and enchanting a fire spell at the ice below you.
* Returning to the Imperial Sewers area in which Uriel Septim VII was assassinated will reveal a candle-lit memorial. The room also contains a small table, upon which rests a Mythic Dawn robe and pair of sandals. A larger table is also present, spattered with blood and scored by the marks of the dagger laying upon such, near a missive concerning the assassins. This area will be traversed during the [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] quest [[Oblivion:Scheduled for Execution|Scheduled for Execution]], and may be viewed then.
* Once the [[Oblivion:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]] quest line is complete, you will be prompted to appoint Modryn Oreyn as your second in command. Doing so will lead him to comments that he has enjoyed his time off, having become a better painter in his retirement. His "painting" may be viewed on the easel in the corner of his room, depicting the interrogation of Ajum-Kajin in the [[Oblivion:Information Gathering|Information Gathering]] quest.
* The Construction Set reveals the default name of the player - an Imperial male - to be Bendu Olo. In Elder Scrolls history, [[Tamriel:People B#Bendu Olo, King (?b - ?d)|Bendu Olo]] was the Colovian king of Cyrodiil in 1E/2200.
[[image:Giant_Mudcrab_Size_Compare.jpg|thumb|right|The Giant Enemy (Mud)crab of Greenmead Cave.]]
* A {{Linkable Entry|Giant Mudcrab}} lives within the depths of [[Oblivion:Greenmead_Cave|Greenmead Cave]]. It has the same strength as a regular crab and drops no special items. Its quite possible that this is a reference to "Giant enemy crab," An internet joke spawned by a sony conference preveiwing playstation 3. At one stage of the conference, a Sony producer gave out a presentation for the game Genji 2. During this demonstration he made a complete fool out of himself by first explaining that the entire game was based on Japanese history, before adding "so here's this Giant Enemy Crab".He then proceeded to flip said crab onto its back and attack its weak point for Massive Damage (it should be pointed out that no historical evidence for such events actually occurring in ancient Japan has ever been brought forward). (Note: a lot of this taken from a YTMND wiki article.)
* A giant Nirnroot grows somewhere in the vicinity of the "k" in "Skingrad" and another near the "h" in "Kvatch."
* In Fathis Aren's Tower, there is a water-filled pit that is home to numerous slaughterfish, the same pit used to move behind Aren's locked door in the [[Oblivion:Arrow of Extrication|Arrow of Extrication]] quest for the [[Oblivion:Thieves Guild|Thieves Guild]]. Swimming to the bottom of this shaft, you will come in contact with a Giant Slaughterfish, from which numerous items may be taken once slain.
* After completing the [[Oblivion:Dark Brotherhood|Dark Brotherhood]] quest [[Oblivion:Permanent Retirement|Permanent Retirement]] in which you murder [[Oblivion:Adamus Phillida|Adamus Phillida]], his bodyguard will commit suicide. This typically occurs the next time you visit [[Oblivion:Leyawiin|Leyawiin]]. On the bodyguard's corpse you will find a suicide note explaining the reason for his untimely demise.

User:FMan

2007-05-19T22:02:21Z

FMan: Replacing page with 'No.'

No.

User talk:FMan

2007-05-19T22:02:11Z

FMan: Replacing page with '(archived)'

(archived)

UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard

2007-04-01T17:42:25Z

FMan: /* Votes and Comments */ my vote

[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]]
The '''administrator noticeboard''' is where we discuss and coordinate administrative tasks on the wiki. Although this page is intended for [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrators]], all users are encouraged to participate in discussions. __NEWSECTIONLINK__

{| class="greylapse" style="float: right;"
! Page Archives
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive 1|Archive 1]]: Feb 2005 – June 2006. ''Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]]''.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Archive 2|Archive 2]]: June 2006 – August 2006. ''Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]]''.
|-
! Past Administrative Requests
|-
| [[User:Aristeo/RfA|Aristeo's Request for Adminstrator]]: ''Approved June 19, 2006''
|-
| [[User:Nephele/RfA|Nephele's Request for Adminstrator]]: ''Approved Aug. 13, 2006''
|-
| [[User:Aristeo/RfB|Aristeo's Request for Bureaucrat]]: ''Withdrawn by Aristeo Nov. 19, 2006''
|-
| [[User:Ratwar/RfA|Ratwar's Request for Adminstrator]]: ''Approved Jan 31, 2007''
|-
| [[User:TheRealLurlock/RfA|TheRealLurlock's Request for Adminstrator]]: ''Approved Feb. 23, 2007''

|}

==Image Deletion Request==
Could I get a sysop to delete the three images archived [http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Image:Septim_Lineage_Chart.jpg here]. I was unable to have the amended image loaded over the current copy, continually being greeted with that which had a mistaken date. This was resolved by uploading the proper image under a new title (SLC), however, as these images no longer are necessary, I believe a deletion is in order. Thank you. -- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 09:25, 27 September 2006 (EDT)
:Done --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 11:15, 27 September 2006 (EDT)
::My apologies for the late reply, and my thanks for acting so swiftly. -- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 07:17, 3 October 2006 (EDT)

==Renameuser==
As Aristeo was kind enough to point out to me after having lodged an inquiry regarding such on his talk page:
<blockquote>''A name change would require [[Daveh]] to install an extension to the software of the wiki called [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Renameuser Renameuser]. Wikipedia has this installed, as shown [[Wikipedia:Special:Version|here]], and has a team of bureaucrats [...] handling the renames...''</blockquote>
Knowing such, I would like to ask that this extension be installed herein; is this possible? If there is any pressing reason to avoid the installation of said extension, I would similarly appreciate being informed of such. Thank you. -- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 07:17, 3 October 2006 (EDT)
:I was just browsing Mediawiki's [http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_FAQ&oldid=367091#How_do_I_reassign_edits_from_one_user_to_another.3F FAQ] and came across another solution that does not require installation of any extensions. There is already a maintenance script (as of version 1.5.7) reassignEdits.php that allows edits to be reassigned from one user to another. It still requires Daveh to run the script, but it is probably less time-consuming than installing an extension. The usage is: <code>php reassignEdits.php <from> <to> [--force]</code>. Presumably this could also be used to merge Lurlock and TheRealLurlock's edit histories, for example. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 19:20, 5 October 2006 (EDT)
::Until a decision on this can be reached, I decided the best course would be to simply modify my signature (with the "raw signature" option), and place a minor notation on my user page listing who I am (Graye = booyah_boy). -- [[User:Booyah boy|Graye]] 06:34, 6 October 2006 (EDT)

==.svg Images Not Working==
I'd like for someone with knowledge about the technical part of MediaWiki (the wiki software) to find out why .SVG images do not work on the wiki, but work when called directly.

* Attempt to summon test image: [[Image:Information_icon.svg]]
* Link to the test image page: [[:Image:Information_icon.svg]]
* Direct link to the actual image: http://uesp.net/w/images/Information_icon.svg

I have no idea why this is happening, so I'm afraid I don't have any leads. Swift resolution of this matter would be appreciated, because it's interfering with some of the things I've wanted to do. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 14:24, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

Sorry, I'm no expert, but a few things I noticed...
It doesn't appear in the uploaded files list, although it is there. Also, looking at the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalable_Vector_Graphics wikipedia entry], I noticed the MIME type for SVG should be image/svg+xml, where on ours it is set to image/svg. Could that be the issue? [[User:Sstasino|Sstasino]] 14:58, 27 October 2006 (EDT)

==External image URL handling?==
It used to be that pasting a URL (e.g. http://tinypic.com/2mn3jmc.jpg) would intelligently result in an image if the URL ended with png/gif/jpg. Now it's not working. What went wrong? Other than the main page news article I don't know that there are many pages currently using this, but it is (or, rather, ''was'') a very useful feature. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]][[User talk:Garrett|Talk]] 04:19, 1 November 2006 (EST)
:Generally, I find it's better to avoid externally hosted images. I noticed the day you initially posted that news article that the picture was sometimes there, sometimes not. I was going to download it and rehost it locally on the UESP, but opted not to when it reappeared. (Also thought there might be copyright issues with a magazine cover.) Looks like you've done just that now - probably the best way to do it. I suspect it has something to do with the allowed bandwidth of the hosting site, but I don't know. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 09:16, 1 November 2006 (EST)
::From the config files, the relevant variable appears to be $wgAllowExternalImages, described as "Whether to allow inline image pointing to other websites". Perhaps that variable got changed from false to true with the latest upgrade? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 12:04, 1 November 2006 (EST)
:::I noticed problems with this image long before the upgrade, so I don't think that's it. Might be a contributing factor, but it's certainly not the only problem. I say stick to local-hosting. It just works better in general. (Also easier to position images where you want them with local images.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 13:14, 1 November 2006 (EST)

::The setting was changed from defaulting to true to defaulting to false at some point. I've re-enabled it as it can sometimes be useful to quickly link to an external image (usinga local image is preffered as Lurlock mentioned). -- [[User:Daveh|DaveH]] 18:21, 1 November 2006 (EST)

== Irc Discussion ==

While there was an irc conference a couple of days ago, no summary of the discussion or conclusions has been posted. From that lack I had assumed that nothing of consequence was decided or discussed. But dipping through the history I see some indication that's not true. (Revoking admin privileges??)

If there was something of consequence discussed or concluded, then please summarize the results here and ''then let the discussion continue on this page.'' While Irc can be useful for fast discussion, any significant discussion of wiki management should take place on the wiki (i.e., here), where a more prolonged, thought-out discussion, with more participants can take place. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 14:06, 19 November 2006 (EST)

: The IRC room is good for fast and informal discussions, which allows us to filter out the good ideas from the bad ones. We were discussing if administrative inactivity was grounds for de-adminship. That was thrown out as a bad idea. If it would have gained support as a good idea, then whoever proposed the idea would ask the wiki what they think. It's silly and disruptive to knowingly propose bad ideas to the community. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 16:12, 19 November 2006 (EST)

== Warnings and Notices ==

I've developed a series of warnings and notices that you can give to newcomers and bad faith editors when they do something that they are not supposed to. These messages are emotion-free, so use them if you want to prevent the possibility of getting excited and embarrassing yourself (not that you would do such a thing) but still get your message across. Also, since these messages are pre-written, you don't have to spend minutes of your precious time explaning our rules and procedures when with just a couple clicks you can get your message across in seconds.

You can find these warnings at [[User:Aristeo/Warning]]. Good luck! --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 23:55, 1 December 2006 (EST)

== 64.150.0.1 - Requesting Unblocking ==

{{vandal|64.150.0.1}}, who has been blocked from editing indefinitely by [[User:Daveh|Daveh]], requests unblocking. He was warned after vandalising eight pages on November 29th with profanity, and spamming an apology message on fifty-five pages. His edits were administratively reverted by [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] and then he was blocked from editing. The editor requested to be unblocked on his talk page, leaving the following messages on his talk page:

:''Sorry for everything I did, and the comments were harsh. Sorry again. Is there still a chance for redemption?''

:''I am truely sorry. I was trying to appologize, but did not know where to do this. Even now that I know of this page's existance, I still find it hard to find. Thanks''

All blocks can be appealed if the blocked user feels that they are unjust, and the users can be paroled if they apologize and promise to edit constructively. (I think.) Of course, the decision to unblock is up to the community, or Daveh if he says that his block is final. Therefore, I'm proposing to the community whether or not we should temporarily unblock and give him the chance to apologize to the community and request parole under the following conditions:

* The user would be banned from editing anything except his talk page and these proceedings.
* All edits made by him should only be made to address this case.

If the editor breaches either one of these criteria, even if he only fixes a typo, the user would be blocked again, his edits would bre reverted, and he would possibly be reported to his ISP. "'''Support'''", "'''Support, but'''", "'''Oppose'''", and "'''Comment'''" as necessary. I'm neutral until otherwise stated. I will contact Daveh and the anonymous editor after I have posted this message. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 01:08, 7 December 2006 (EST)

* '''Oppose''', this guy has been blocked '''nine''' times on Wikipedia. See [[User:64.150.0.1/Info]] for the information I compiled on this guy. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 02:19, 7 December 2006 (EST)

* '''Oppose''', I think the reasoning is self explanatory. Nice work Aristeo. --[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 02:21, 7 December 2006 (EST)
** Thanks! I was about to upload a close up satellite image of the ISP building from Google Maps (pretty detailic) as well as a hybrid zoomed-out image to show how to drive there from the nearest interstate, but I felt like that would've been too much. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 02:37, 7 December 2006 (EST)

* '''Oppose''', The Wikipedia thing seals the deal for me. This is a long-term repeat offender (over 6 months on WP), and not likely to provide any constructive edits in the future from what I can see. Shut it down. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 09:41, 7 December 2006 (EST)

* '''Oppose''', After seeing his history, I don't see any reason to unblock him. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 09:57, 7 December 2006 (EST)

* '''Oppose.''' For me, too, the wikipedia history says it's not worth giving this person the benefit of the doubt. I would instead propose unprotecting the user talk page. That way, if this user (or anyone else at this IP address) wants to contribute to the wiki, he/she can post suggestions on the talk page. Until there is some concrete evidence that the user has an interest in making constructive contributions to the wiki, I say leave the account blocked. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 11:50, 7 December 2006 (EST)

* '''Oppose''' For reasons already given on users talk page and elsewhere. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 17:20, 7 December 2006 (EST)

===Page protection===
The voting on this matter seems to be fairly clear: there is no support for unblocking this account. However, I do not see any reason to continue to leave the user talk page protected. The talk page is supposed to be available even to blocked IP addresses, so that anybody else using that IP address has a mechanism to communicate with the UESP community. Furthermore, wiki pages are only supposed to be protected under rare circumstances, for example, when not protecting them will leave the wiki as a whole vulnerable to threats. I do not see why this user talk page qualifies for protection. Are there any objections to removing the protection from the page [[User_talk:64.150.0.1]]? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 20:34, 16 December 2006 (EST)
:'''No objection.''' --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 21:53, 16 December 2006 (EST)
:I already unprotected it yesterday afternoon. No need for a petition. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 07:20, 19 December 2006 (EST)
::Thanks, Aristeo. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 11:01, 19 December 2006 (EST)
::: :) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 15:25, 19 December 2006 (EST)

== Protected Pages ==

I think we have a few too many fully-protected pages. [[Main Page]], for example, is being hurt by full protection because none of the administrators have time to keep it up to date.

I would like to limit or remove the protection on the following pages:

* [[Main Page]] - Full to semi
* [[UESPWiki:Spam Blacklist]] - Full to semi
* [[UESPWiki:Donations]] - Full to none
* [[UESPWiki:Bad Addresses]] - Full to none
* [[UESPWiki:History]] - Full to none
* [[UESPWiki:Site Costs]] - Full to none

The last four pages don't need to be protected because they don't have too much exposure on the site, and they should be unprotected in case someone needs to adjust the categories, fix a typo, do grammatical adjustments, et cetera.

[[UESPWiki:Spam Blacklist]] should go down to semi-protection so everyone can contribute to blocking spammers. I don't have a good feeling about removing protection completely, but it's a possibility if you all are up to it.

Take a moment to think it over, and let me know what you think. Keep in mind that we can always re-protect a page if we need to. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 09:53, 8 February 2007 (EST)

:Overall, I don't see that eight pages and four pictures [[:Category:Full Protection|with
full protection]] on a site with 14000+ pages is too many. And I'm not aware of any changes to the site that warrant revamping an already-established [[UESPWiki:Protection_Policy|policy]]. Our policy is very similar to [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Protection_policy wikipedia's], and I'd prefer not to gamble by exposing our site to more risk than wikipedia does.

:In terms of the specific pages being discussed:
:* For the last four pages I would say the decision is solely up to Daveh. They are pages that he created to keep track of information related to the operation of the site. I don't see why anyone else would need to contribute to those pages, but it's Daveh's call as to whether or not he would like to give access to other editors.
:* The Main Page is the most prominent page on the site, and the one that is the most likely to be pulled up a new user. I don't feel that Aristeo's concerns justify increasing the risk that such a prominent page will be vandalized (and vandals have been known to create accounts just to get around the semi-protection). The only sections of the Main Page that have any need to be updated all have ways that any editor can provide input on the page contents (or even directly modify the page), i.e., [[UESPWiki:News]], [[Main Page/Did You Know]], [[UESPWiki:Featured Articles]]. And based on editors' interest in contributing at those locations, it does not seem that there is a great demand for more access to the Main Page.
:* The Spam Blacklist is fundamentally an administrative tool. If the power to block editors is reserved for admins, I think the power to completely block edits should also be reserved for admins (and that is fundamentally what the blacklist does: controls a tool that can completely prevent edits from being made; a careless edit could be disastrous). Also, most of the recent spam is not accessible to regular editors (the pages have been deleted), so I'm not sure how editors would determine what sites should be added to the blacklist. If there are editors out there who think that they could help site more if they had access to this page, I'd welcome their input to this discussion. But at the moment, I don't see how lifting that page's protected status will contribute to improving the site.
:--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 14:19, 9 February 2007 (EST)
::'''Agree.''' My thinking exactly. --19:24, 9 February 2007 (EST) {{unsigned|Wrye}}

:: The four last pages
::* As I have said earlier in my opening discussion, if someone finds a typo or needs to adjust a category, it can be a pain for them to have to contact an admin and explain to them all of the changes that need to be made for anything to be changed. As for this being Daveh's sole decision, he's more than welcome to participate with us in this conversation. Until then, we have to assume he has no opinion.
:: Main page
::* Are you saying that we shouldn't scale down the protection of the main page because there is a risk that it might be vandalised? I would like to point out that the entire site is open to such an attack at any given moment. I also believe that the [[Main Page]] isn't broken right now because no one is interested, it's broken because no one knows they can edit parts of it.
:: If you feel like this should be a gated community instead of a wiki where people are interviewed before they can join, I would back you up if you proposed this idea on the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal|community portal]]. It would definitely fix a vast majority of the problems with "stupid edits" and vandalism, and everyone could spend more time writing articles instead of having to deal with newcomers.
:: But getting back on topic, I would feel much more submissive to your views on unprotecting these pages if someone who wasn't an administrator feels the same way you and Wrye do. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 18:17, 11 February 2007 (EST)

::: I'm a bit confused about what you are trying to accomplish: if you support turning the wiki into a "gated community" why do you want to reduce the protection of pages? I, for one, have never advocated preventing newcomers from being able to contribute to the wiki, and I am not questioning this proposal because I want to set up barriers for editors. Rather, I do not believe that having protections on 0.01% of the pages turns the wiki into a "gated community". I think that limiting access to a very few select pages, using criteria derived from wikipedia's many years of experience in what pages need to have limited access, is just a reasonable precaution.
::: For Daveh's four pages, I don't feel comfortable making an assumption about what Daveh wants or doesn't want, especially when there is, as far as I know, no urgent need to take any action with those pages. But if you feel otherwise, and you wish to make assumptions on Daveh's behalf, then that's your call.
::: For the Main Page, I think protection is appropriate, since that is the page that will come up if someone just types "uesp.net" into their browser: it is fundamentally a far more visible page than any other page on the site, especially for first time visitors. Because of that greater visibility, I think it is more likely to be vandalized and I think there are more negative consequences to the site's reputation if it is vandalized, even for 15 minutes. And given that efforts have been made to provide editors with access to several parts of the page, it seems that changing the protection status dramatically increases the site's risks without much in the way of obvious benefits.
::: Furthermore, I wasn't aware that the Main Page was currently "broken": perhaps it would help this discussion if everyone had a better idea of what it is that you think needs to be urgently fixed right now. If you think that there is a problem with editors not realizing that they can modify the Main Page, why not tackle that issue more directly, for example by making editors' options clear at the very start of [[Talk:Main Page]]? If you would like to get input on this issue from editors other than administrators, why did you post the question on the Administrator Noticeboard instead of the Community Portal?
::: As I said before, if there are editors who feel that these changes would help them in improving the wiki, I would welcome their input. But in the absence of any such input, it seems that changing the protection status is an unnecessary risk. I'd prefer to explore other solutions first (e.g., links on [[Talk:Main Page]]) instead of rushing to make a change to an established policy. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:23, 11 February 2007 (EST)
::::Trying not to step into another political debate here, but I'm with Nephele and Wrye on this one. I see no reason why anyone other than Daveh would want to edit those policy pages. The spam blacklist should definitely stay protected, as it could lead to abuse. (And usually, if a spammer posts ad-links, an Admin will block them, and that same Admin should then add the sites to the blacklist. Thus there's never any need for anyone else to touch this page.) As for the Main Page, I agree that it's just too tempting a target if you allow it to be editted. Wikipedia doesn't allow main-page editting, nor does any other Wiki that I know of. It's just too risky. Anyhow, that's all I have to say on the subject. (Not sure if my view counts as a "non admin", since I'm up for RfA, but thought I'd chime in.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 21:47, 11 February 2007 (EST)

: As with any decision here on the wiki, we need to consider what will happen if we change the current system. On the last four pages, I've looked at the history of all of them. There average age before being protected was greater than six months. In that time, there was only one non-admin edit on them. There's just not a huge need for regular users to make changes to these pages. In fact, the only one that really knows most of the stuff is Daveh. If he feels the need to unprotect them, let him. If not, I don't think we're limiting the community in any way.

: On the note of the Main Page, it never really bothered me as an editor that I couldn't edit it. You see, once you open the main page to user control, you don't only risk vandalism, you risk small news. I don't think anyone here wants to see the Main Page a billboard for the latest mods to come out. Therefore, I am quite happy with is saying protected. As for the Spam Block list, I don't deal with it, so I don't think I should pass judgment on it one way or another. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 21:57, 11 February 2007 (EST)

I've had some more time to study some of the comments that have been made here, so I hope these latest comments of mine will be better and more relevant than my others.

Nephele said in, what I believe, is the thesis of her first statement that we only have twelve articles and images that are fully protected from editing out of more than fourteen thousand. This is about 0.001% of our articles and 0.002% of our "content articles". We all can agree that this number is excellent and that we hold true to the popular wiki adage "anyone can edit".

The problem that I see is not the amazingly high ratio of non-protected to protected articles. The problem is the concept of protecting articles in the first place – we're basically telling every editor and potential editor who is not an administrator that our fear of them messing these pages up is greater than our trust that they won't.

This was the overall premise behind my reasoning to unprotect some of these articles in the first place, and that premise lead me to find some pages that could be unprotected without having a negative effect, but I also found an article (the main page) that could benefit from being unprotected.

I do agree that this idea to unprotect these pages that I mentioned is a bad idea, but not for the reasons that were given. I am an administrator, as a couple of you may know, so page protection does not have the slightest effect on what I can do. Nephele, Ratwar, Wrye, are also administrators, as my research has concluded, so page protection does not have the slightest effect on them either. My proposal was a bad idea because I didn't gauge the people who would be affected by this decision before I proposed it. To be frank, no one cares that they can't edit these twelve pages and I should have taken that into consideration.

To conclude this proposal and to try to lead it into something useful, let me introduce a less-controversial counter-proposal. I ask that we give anonymous and registered editors every reasonable opportunity to nominate a page for unprotection, temporary or otherwise, if they have a reasonable reason as to why it should be unprotected. We could say something on the "view source" page, for example, along the lines of "If you would like to request a temporary or non-temporary unprotection of this page, you can do so by [......]".

This way, we could honestly say that the decision to unprotect or protect a page is not only in the hands of the protecting admin, but also in the hands of the people whom the block affects.

As always, all of your comments are welcomed and appreciated, and I thank you all for putting up with me and my wild proposals. :) I'm going to find one that everyone likes, eventually! ;)

--[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 01:47, 12 February 2007 (EST)

( P.S. I wouldn't mind if we moved this over to the Community Portal. I was thinking, since protected pages was an admin thing, that this was an admin request. My mistake >.> )

:Adding more notifications about how editors can request to edit protected pages is fine by me. But I also just remembered that there is a fully protected page that's not listed at [[:Category:Full Protection]]: [[User talk:64.150.0.1]]. Were you planning to eventually unprotect that page? Or do you think that the proposed policy on blocked user pages ([[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy#Blocked Accounts]]) needs to be modified? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:35, 12 February 2007 (EST)

:: I did want to protect that page temporarily, I just forgot to unprotect it. I also forgot to put that page in the category. I just unprotected and archived that talk page. Thanks for the reminder! :) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 01:03, 13 February 2007 (EST)

::: Deja vu. Since the user is still blocked and since the talk discussed the blocking and why it was done, I think that it is all still "active" and so should not be archived. And it's not like the space is needed for anything else, so again, no reason to archive. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 01:44, 13 February 2007 (EST)

:::: That's fine, feel free to undo or revise any of those changes that I made on that talk page as you deem necessary. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 02:40, 13 February 2007 (EST)

::::: Done (de-archived). --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 14:53, 13 February 2007 (EST)

== Ad Discussion ==

Feedback on using [[UESPWiki:Administrator_Noticeboard/Ads|Ads]] on the site would be appreciated. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 13:53, 14 February 2007 (EST)

== Repeat vandal - multiple IPs ==

Just had a repeat vandalism incident to [[Oblivion:Weapons]]. First [[User:84.71.27.192]] came on and made a bunch of offensive edits, I warned and reverted. Then [[User:84.66.192.58]] came on and made the same edits. Both IPs are located in the same area (London, UK), so it's pretty obvious they're the same person. I'm recommending at least a temporary block on them both, and possible further investigation. (If this person has access to 2 IPs, they may have access to more, and will probably just come back again if these 2 are blocked.) There seems to be an argument with somebody on www.deviantart.com that is related to this, I didn't want to get too far into it, but it might be worth contacting their administrators as well. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 16:16, 16 February 2007 (EST)

:Welp, you're familiar with [[UESPWiki:Blocking_Policy]], which generally requires a warning first. However, mitigating factors are that they vandalized the same page repeatedly and then repeated vandalism after you undid it. Personally, I would not object to a temporary block. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 16:36, 16 February 2007 (EST)

:: I ''did'' warn first. The fact that they used a different IP to repeat the vandalism after the warning doesn't change anything. There should be almost no doubt that they are the same person, (both in London, both made practically identical edits to the same page), thus usually blocking policy would still apply, I'd think. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 17:07, 16 February 2007 (EST)

:::Yep, I agree that based on Lurlock's evidence it is safe to assume that the same person made the two sets of edits, and therefore treat the two IP addresses as a single user. And the edits are unquestionably vandalism. And the timing makes it look very likely that the user received the first warning, then chose to get a new IP address to circumvent the warning. So repeated vandalism after a warning = block. But Daveh beat me to the punch on enacting the blocks :( --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 17:18, 16 February 2007 (EST)

== Vandalism of shivering isles page ==

the users 71.251.71.72 and 72.64.227.72 have been vandalising the shivering isles page. [[User:67.142.130.49|67.142.130.49]] 21:02, 2 March 2007 (EST)

== ShakenMike ==

I don't believe {{User|ShakenMike}} is at the right place. I know a couple people here are getting tired of him, so for the sake of the collective sanity here we might want to start trying to redirect him to a place more geared towards what he's looking for. I would appreciate if someone would inform him of what the mission here is and give him some suggestions on places to go where he can get his questions asked. I also suggest that we all ''stop answering his questions'' so we can convince him that going somewhere else would be good ''for him''.

If that doesn't work and the user obviously disregards the request, then come back here and we can talk about taking another step towards this rather unique situation.

--[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 14:43, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I took the initiative and left a note on his talk page, hopefully addressing some of the concerns brought up about him and redirecting him to somewhere more suited for him in response to an e-mail he sent me and what he left on his talk page. ([http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=User_talk:ShakenMike&oldid=95278 permalink])

I believe this problem is close to being resolved, but I would prefer that you all keep a close eye on him in the mean time. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 17:02, 3 March 2007 (EST)

--[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 17:02, 3 March 2007 (EST)

My problem of this site hasn't being solve due not understand the format of rules of deleting own user talk page and others.[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 11:12, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

: I'll respond to this on your [[User_talk:ShakenMike|talk page]]. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 12:09, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:: I wonder if he even reads what you guys post on his page because when you look at his long history of deleting, someone already told him he wasn't supposed to delete on and on and then ask questions. TO that, he answers something like "but I didn't know I was doing something bad" (I'm sorry for being vague but all of this is in his contribution page). Count me as one VERY irritated person because of his attitude. --[[User:Vartan|Vartan]] 12:15, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

::: Deleting your user talk page messages is okay, even if they're warnings. And unless a user is banned, (not blocked,) they have jurisdiction over their user page. I don't know why people are getting so upset, just calm down and try not to take things too seriously. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 13:07, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:: Well, I was about to leave a message on your talk page, ShakenMike, but I'm a bit vague on the details. I'd like for someone else to do it if they can leave a message without being hostile. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 13:07, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

He's being annoying (at least) and seems to be skirting the line of what is actionable (i.e., I haven't seen him delete talk page content again). So, what I've done is add a warning to his [[User:ShakenMike|user page]] and protect the user page, while adding an inclusion to a subpage which he can continue to edit. While editing/protecting a user page is an unusual and pretty undesirable action, it's the best solution that I can up with, so long as we're not blocking his account. This means that the warning is still there and can be easily seen by other editors and in a way that he can't delete -- and yet he can still add content to the page. (Other admins, if you think it's not the best approach, feel free to unprotect the page.)

So, short of a more permanent block, ignoring seems to be best approach for now. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 15:07, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

:That might be a good idea and go ahead. I wish there's a way to delete my whole account and shouldn't joined at the first place.You have very strict rules that I can't follow properly[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 15:20, 21 March 2007 (EDT)
::Done. (Indefinite block by request of user.) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 15:33, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

== Okay, who pissed off Turkey? ==

Not sure why, but we've just had the second attack from a "hackers" group in Turkey. (See [[Special:Contributions/85.99.81.84]] and [[Special:Contributions/81.213.238.147]]) Both IPs were traced to locations in Turkey, and both used the same basic M.O. on the same page. I blocked them both - didn't see much need for a warning when they even refer to themselves as "hackers". How they consider editing a talk page on an open wiki to be "hacking" is beyond me, but what I wonder is where these people came from? (I haven't checked, but I don't think we have any legit editors from Turkey - don't even think there's a Turkish-language version of this game out there.) Just wondering why they decided to target our site, and whether they've been just doing this to lots of people, or what. Don't want to start an international incident here, just thought it was awfully strange... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 10:22, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:A quick Google search for one of the IPs also turned up a similar edit on [http://www.unmaintained-free-software.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/85.99.81.84 www.unmaintained-free-software.org], another wiki. I'll bet these guys are really proud of themselves for this, though I can't imagine why... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 10:29, 8 March 2007 (EST)

::Maybe there was a program about wikipedia on turkish TV and now every 12-year-old trying to feel like a "gangsta" is out looking for wikis to "hack" (''snicker''). -- [[User:JustTheBast|JustTheBast]] 10:39, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:Lurlock, you missed [[Special:Contributions/85.98.46.184]]. Anyways, I've been looking into the whole thing, and according to [http://www.ripe.net/fcgi-bin/whois?searchtext=85.98.46.184], we can report the abuse to abuse@ttnet.net.tr if we want to. Personally, I think the best course of action is to ask Daveh to report the offending IPs, if they vandalize anything else. If vandalism continues afterwards, I'd recommend just blocking the ISP's entire spectrum. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 10:55, 8 March 2007 (EST)

::Okay, add [[Special:Contributions/81.213.197.200]] to the list. Four times to one page, all from Turkey, same basic MO. If it wasn't a talk-page, I'd consider semi-protecting it. Incidentally, found another wiki they've "hacked": [http://snaphouston.com/index.php?title=Team This site apparently hasn't noticed it yet], and this page was previously "hacked" (actually created) by yet another IP: 81.215.185.202. (This one hasn't touched our site yet, but it's the same "oncuTurk" team that hit us on other IPs.) I think what we're looking at here is two or more rival groups of vandals, otherwise why would they be "hacking" pages created by other "hackers"? I'm going to report this to DaveH and see if he feels like doing something about it. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 09:51, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

They often commit these crimes although if you ask me, this one is pretty funny. Claiming to "hack" a wiki page is rather hilarious, I'll make sure to share this story with some friends. At first I was feeling guilty thinking I ignited this because of my user page and something I added to Narina Carvain's page. I didn't add anything offensive except mentioning "Armenia" twice yesterday. Turkish hackers usually hack pages about the armenian genocide and pages mentioning their lack of human rights but there's none of that here so I guess it's 12 years old that finally heard about the concept of wikipedia.[[User:Vartan|Vartan]] 09:50, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

:Since the first of these "hacks" happened 11 days ago, I think it's safe to say your edits had nothing to do with it. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 10:22, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

Wow, these guys have been ''busy''. Just did a [http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=oncuTurk&btnG=Google+Search Google search for "oncuTurk"]: Over 5000 hits, all just other wikis they've "hacked". Most of them aren't nearly as diligent as we are about dealing with vandalism. I definitely think a complaint to their ISP is in order, though I'm not sure how much good it would do. I wonder if there's any place you can go to report things like this to the wiki-community in general. Some sort of cross-wiki vigilantes who might go around to hundreds of wikis and revert vandalisms like this. Certainly, I've never seen a single group responsible for this much damage over such a large number of sites. I wonder if the Turkish government or police would be interested in doing something about this, as it's clearly a very wide-spread attack. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to go about starting an investigation like this... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 10:10, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

[http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=TehLiqE&btnG=Google+Search This team] has also done their share of damage, over 2000 hits. Same story. The others (Omer and Uzman) were harder to look up, as they are apparently common names in Turkish. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 10:22, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

: If there's only been the few edits I'm happy to leave them be with their delusions of 'hacking'. If they start doing more vandalism I have no problems in approaching their ISP about it. It would probably be best if I was the one notifying the ISP for this and any other similar things. Thanks for tracking the source of this down... -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 12:16, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

:: Damn these people and no, reporting that kind of behavior to their ISP or any Turkish agency won't do any good, as you all probably know, Turks are very proud people and no matter what: they are always right. I don't know if you've heard about it but they blocked access to Youtube because there were some materials on there they didn't like (Cyprus, Armenian genocide, etc etc...). Isn't there a way to automatically revert all pages changed from Turkish IPs? --[[User:Vartan|Vartan]] 15:40, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

== New spam-bot? ==

I think we may be dealing with a new spam-bot. Take a look at the conversation on [[User talk:1173725057]]. It seems to specifically look for red-links, and create pages to fill them, unlike the previous ones which create pages in places nobody cares about. I've blocked the user and added the sites it used to the Spam Blacklist, but that may not hold it for long. Do we have a plan to deal with this sort of thing? First of all, I thought new accounts couldn't create pages except in Talk namespaces. Four of those pages it created were in non-Talk namespaces. (The other 4 were not, but whatever.) The weird thing is, I can't figure out what these bots are hoping to accomplish by putting a bunch of non-displaying links onto a page like that. Are the search-engine web-crawlers really dumb enough to fall for that? Because it's not like they're expecting our visitors to click those links if they go to such lengths to hide them. Is there a way we can block the <code>display="none"</code> tag? (I mean, there's already wiki-markup tools to do that, so there's no reason to use it.) Just throwing out suggestions. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 16:23, 12 March 2007 (EDT)
:I'm guessing that the account was created more than three days ago, which is why it was able to create new pages. You could experiment with adding style=display:none in some form to the Spam Blacklist page, but it might be really difficult to get all the possible permutations to be recognized (style="display:none", style='display:none', style='align:left;display:none', etc.). Even at Daveh's level I'm not sure there's much more that's available: specific html tags, i.e. <nowiki><div></nowiki>, can be blocked but I'm pretty sure that parameters such as style can't by default be blocked, and especially not specific arguments (i.e. display:none) for those parameters. My guess is that now that editors know to look out for this, we just treat it like any spam: any editor who finds it blanks the page (for real), and when an admin is available, it gets deleted. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:33, 13 March 2007 (EDT)
: Interesting...while there is no built-in support for validating specific attribute values, it shouldn't be too hard to add it if needed. I'd likely just add some special handling to check for ''display:none'' in the validateTagAttributes() function in Sanitizer.php. I won't do anything just yet but if this begins to become more frequent or cause a problem just let me know. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 12:26, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

== Ready for Shivering Isles? ==

The first 'real' expansion pack for Oblivion has snuck up me...the site should be seeing a noticeable increase in traffic over the next few weeks as well as lots of new content related to the expansion. I just want to make sure we're probably prepared:
:* '''Site Load/Stability''' -- Seems fine and can still handle more traffic without needing any upgrades. Worst case is I can add more RAM and increase the site's bandwidth, neither of which would take effort or time much to implement.
:* '''Shivering: Structure''' -- It might be good to setup the basic structure in the '''Shivering''' name space in preparation for all the content. This is to help direct people to the new content as well as the to the right place to add new content. I assume a structure similar to the '''Oblivion''' name space is what we want but I leave the details to the more experienced editors.
:* '''New Content Formatting''' -- Probably doesn't need to be said, but patrols should make sure new content is in the proper format. Better to start using the correct format/templates than having to go back and redo it all in the future (as those redoing Morrowind might attest to).
-- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 17:44, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

== File Hosting Feedback ==

Those who have been around here a while might know of my eventual wish to begin hosting more files on UESP. I'm closer to actually thinking about implementing something but would like to get everyone's feedback on it. My basic thoughts on it are:
:* This is not to compete with all the other ES hosting sites but provide another option. I find most of the existing hosting sites extremely slow and annoying overall (I recently reinstalled Oblivion and was re-downloading mods...ugh). I also want to make sure ES file content is always available in the future.
:* I don't imagine trying to host every single MW/OB mod. I'm mainly interested in making sure all the good quality mods and utilities from all games will be always available.
:* I'd like the download/upload interface to be as simple as possible and fit within the MediaWiki framework. Ideally I'd like something similar to how the '''Image''' namespace is used allowing users to upload and manage files themselves.
:* File hosting will mainly affect the site's bandwidth and the site load very much. I'll likely setup a separate light-weight web server (tinyhttpd?) to serve files/images so as to not interfere with the main web page server. The site's monthly bandwidth can be easily increased and we can upgrade from a 10Mbs to a 100Mbs connection relatively cheaply. I'll likely also design the system to allow the file/image server to be a seperate physical machine to allow it to scale easily in the long term.
No rush on this as I haven't even done any planning or designing yet beyond what I've done in years past. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 18:13, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

:Your choice, of course, but I tend to think that it's better to stay focussed. Download sites are already pretty well covered. And running one of them is a lot of work. And I'd be very concerned with major downloads interfering with the wiki operation. OTOH, a concern about always keeping mods available is reasonable -- I remember multiple Morrowind sites going down. But a solution there might to act as a backup site for the other major sites. (If they're interested -- and assuming licensing concerns don't get in the way as they did for MW. Painful long battles just to rehost files that people weren't sure they had the permissions to redistribute. Aaargghh.) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 21:03, 27 March 2007 (EDT)

== ShakenMike for Adminship ==

I would like to nominate '''[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]]''' for adminship because of his outstanding ability to perform various administrative tasks around the site, such as [[UESPWiki:Archiving Guideline|archiving and removing]] old and unnecessary discussions from talk pages. His knowledge and respect for our various [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines|rules, procedures, and values]] are beyond compare. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 00:33, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

: Ya i guess so but im not sure how this works. I coudnt edit when logged in for some reason, im not sure why it does this.[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 00:42, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

===Questions===
'''Q1:''' What goals do you hope to accomplish as an administrator?

: I would like to edit my user page i cant edit it because its protected could someone help?[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 00:42, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

'''Q2:''' What do you foresee as being challenges or issues that UESP may face in the near future? Are there are any changes that you think need to be implemented?

: I wish people would anser my questins cause no one does, by the way, how do i get inside an obivine gate cause I want to no[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 00:42, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

===Votes and Comments===
* '''Support''', as nominator --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 01:07, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
* '''Oppose''', seeing that you have not archived this nomination yet --[[User:206.225.93.52|206.225.93.52]] 01:12, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
* '''Support'''!!! He's been an active contributor for quite some time and hopefully he'll be able to delete pages more efficiently. -- [[User:Aristeo|Sock puppet]] 01:24, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
* '''Support'''!!! ShakenMike's reputation as an underachiever and mischevious troublemaker is undeserved. He's a valuable contributor to the content of UESP and performs much needed cleanup and icebreaking functions. --[[User:74.167.38.9|74.167.38.9]] 12:47, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
* '''Support''' - ShakenMike has proven himself as a contributor on many discussions on UESP. --[[User:194.251.240.114|194.251.240.114]] 12:50, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
* '''Support''' This is a must for the future of UESP! --[[User:88.192.171.61|88.192.171.61]] 12:54, 1 April 2007 (EDT)
* '''Support''' - I cannot sit idlely by while this is going on. Whoops .. was I supposed to vote "Oppose" on something like this? Oh, I'm so confused. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 13:42, 1 April 2007 (EDT)

Oblivion:Clavicus Vile

2007-03-24T16:52:49Z

FMan: /* Umbra */ typo

{{Template:Oblivion Quests Daedric Trail}}
{{Quest Header
|Giver=[[Oblivion:Ma'Raska|Ma'Raska]]
|Start=[http://www.uesp.net/oblivion/map/obmap.shtml?centeron=Clavicus%20Vile's%20Shrine%20(Daedric) Shrine of Clavicus Vile]
|Reward=[[Oblivion:Masque of Clavicus Vile|Masque of Clavicus Vile]]
|Loc=[[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]]
|ReqLevel=20
|ReqItem=500 gold
|Image=OB-Img-ShrineofClavicusVile.JPG
|ImgDesc=The Shrine of Clavicus Vile
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Present Clavicus Vile with 500 gold once you reach level 20.
# Clavicus will tell you that he wants the sword containing the soul of the warrior Umbra.
# Retrieve the [[Oblivion:Umbra (sword)|Umbra]] sword from the NPC named [[Oblivion:Umbra (person)|Umbra]], located in the Ayleid ruin [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]].
# Return to the shrine for your reward, the [[Oblivion:Masque of Clavicus Vile|Masque of Clavicus Vile]]. Alternatively, you can refuse to give Umbra to Clavicus Vile, and you get to keep the sword as your reward.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Location===
'''See the [http://www.uesp.net/oblivion/map/obmap.shtml?centeron=Clavicus%20Vile's%20Shrine%20(Daedric) oblivion map] for the location of this shrine.''' The shrine is located in [[Oblivion:West_Weald|The West Weald]], a bit off the east of [[Oblivion:Gold_Road|The Gold Road]] as it travels south, near [[Oblivion:Lake Rumare|Lake Rumare]]. It is located between [[Oblivion:Fort Virtue|Fort Virtue]] and the Ayleid ruin, [[Oblivion:Ceyatatar|Ceyatatar]]. At the shrine, talk to [[Oblivion:Ma'Raska|Ma'Raska]], a Khajiit. He will tell you that you need to make an offering of 500 gold to speak with the daedra.

===Clavicus Vile's Assignment===
Clavicus Vile wants you to retrieve the artifact sword, [[Oblivion:Umbra (sword)|Umbra]], which contains the soul of a powerful warrior. This is one of the most powerful swords in the game, combining a [[Oblivion:Soul Trap|Soul Trap]] spell with up to 28 points of damage. The current possessor of the sword is a female Bosmer, who has named herself [[Oblivion:Umbra (person)|Umbra]] after the sword (it can be confusing).

To make things interesting, Clavicus Vile also gives you a talking statue of a dog, Barbas, who spends most of his time trying to convince you that returning the sword to Clavicus Vile is a mistake.

===Umbra===
Clavicus Vile initially directs you to ask about Umbra in [[Oblivion:Pell's Gate|Pell's Gate]], which is a short distance east of the shrine south of the [[Oblivion:Red Ring Road|Red Ring Road]]. The most knowledgeable villager in Pell's Gate is [[Oblivion:Irroke the Wide|Irroke the Wide]], to whom she had been apprenticed. Besides some interesting backstory on Umbra, he also directs you to search the nearby Ayleid ruin, [[Oblivion:Vindasel|Vindasel]], which is easy to find if you follow the Red Ring Road west from the village.

When you encounter Umbra, if you are on the quest, she will give you a choice of staying and fighting or leaving in peace:
* '''Leaving'''. Barbas seems to think that leaving is a great idea. If you choose to leave be sure to continue through Umbra's dialogues until you get to tell her "I'll leave in peace". Then, return to Vile's shrine. (Or you can turn around and sneak attack Umbra anyways and take the sword.)
* '''Fighting'''. Umbra is a very tough adversary and you had better be prepared for a hard fight. [[Oblivion:Umbra (person)#Killing Umbra|Many strategies]] have been developed to kill her. If you survive the fight, you get to take possession of not only the sword, but a full suit of (leveled) ebony armor.

Although the standard quest procedure would be to wait until you get the assignment from Vile, then go after Umbra, there are several good reasons to tackle Umbra much earlier in the game. You can kill NPC Umbra at any point, take the Umbra sword, which will be a zero-weight quest item, and keep it in your inventory until you want to do this quest. The main disadvantage is that killing Umbra before the quest starts will count as assault and murder. Some of the reasons to kill Umbra prematurely are:
* The sword and her armor are both very powerful; having them in your possession early in the game is a great advantage.
* It bypasses a serious [[#Bug|glitch]] that occurs in unpatched versions of the game.
* You can complete the quest well before level 20, and avoid paying the 500 gold offering. If you approach the Shrine at any time with Umbra already in your possession, you can trigger the entire end-of-quest dialogue and the quest will be marked as done. Just be sure to talk to Ma'Raska first to make sure the quest updates properly.

===Returning to the Shrine===
If you want to keep Umbra as a zero-weight quest item, simply never return to Clavicus Vile's shrine. If you wish to officially end this quest, however, you must return to the shrine. When you talk to Vile there are three options in all:
* '''You don't have the sword'''. If you chose not to fight Umbra, and return to the shrine without the sword, the quest is complete. You don't get any reward, but you also aren't penalized.
* '''Turn over the sword'''. In exchange you receive the [[Oblivion:Masque of Clavicus Vile|Masque of Clavicus Vile]], a helmet with +20 Personality.
* '''Keep the sword'''. The main disadvantages to this approach are:
** Clavicus Vile's followers do not like you.
** You do not have a Daedric artifact to use for the [[Oblivion:Blood of the Daedra|Blood of the Daedra]] quest (although any of the other 14 artifacts can be used instead).
** Umbra ceases to be a quest item, in particular it is now 45 pounds in weight instead of 0.

Whichever route you choose, this quest is officially complete, and you are rid of Barbas. Keeping Umbra does not prevent you from doing [[Oblivion:Hermaeus Mora|Hermaeus Mora]]'s quest.

If you never killed Umbra, it is now possible to return to Vindasel, kill her, and get the sword. The advantage is that the sword is now a permanent quest item, with zero weight. One disadvantage is that you can't do this until after level 20.

==Notes==
* Clavicus' dog, Barbas, may be '''Creeper''' from Morrowind. Listen to him when he talks about what he used to be. Amongst other things, he has been "A scamp dealing with orcs".
===Dialogue===
'''Clavicus Vile's initial speech:'''
* A mortal! Wonderful. Always a pleasure. Perhaps you'll do a service for me, mortal. And I'll reward you. A fair bargain, don't you think?
* You will retrieve for me a sword, a very special sword. It contains the soul of Umbra, a hero I have had dealings with in the past.
* Bring the sword to me, and I'll reward you with my Masque. You'll not find a better bargain, mortal. Begin your search in Pell's Gate.

At the end of the quest there are multiple options. If you return without a sword:
* You would break our bargain? You dare to trifle with me? Take care, mortal. Clavicus Vile watches you now. And waits.
If you return with the sword:
* You've brought the sword! Now give it to me, as we agreed. Umbra and I have unfinished business.
If you turn over the sword:
* Excellent! A pitiful sword with a pitiful soul in exchange for a Masque fit for a god. You've gotten the better of this bargain, mortal.
* Now, I have business to attend to. Run along. Perhaps I'll be looking for you again....
If you keep the sword.
* You would dare ?!?! We had a bargain, little hero. You would risk my wrath for a pitiful little sword? I will be watching you mortal. And waiting.

'''Barbas' initial speech:'''
* Hello? Hey! Pay attention! In your pack. The dog. I swear, you heroes aren't particularly quick on the uptake....
* Good. Got your attention. I'm Barbas, the Hound of Clavicus Vile. Not that I've always been a hound, or always been called Barbas.
* I've also been a Redguard. For a while I was a scamp, making deals with Orcs. But, for now, I am His Hound, and I serve the Lord Clavicus.
* A word of advice here. You've made a bad deal. This Umbra -- bad business. Things always end badly where that one's concerned.
* Clavicus has always been a little blind to that. And it'll end badly this time, too. So just leave things be. Walk away. It's your best bet, really.

When Umbra gives you the choice to walk away:
* This is your out, friend. Leave it alone. How about we just march on back to the shrine and tell Clavicus the deal is off?
* Sure, he'll be a bit put off, but you won't be dead. At least, you probably won't. That's better odds than you're getting here.
If you choose to walk away:
* Good move, kid. Some things are better left alone. Let's get back to the Shrine. I'll smooth things over with the big guy. I'm sure he'll understand.

If you get the sword:
* I'm telling you: don't bring that sword back to Clavicus. It'll ruin him, I'm sure. I mean, not completely: He's still a Daedra Prince and all that.
* Look, keep the sword if you want. That's your decision. But don't give it back to Clavicus. He doesn't know what's good for him sometimes.

When the quest is over:
* Oh, well. Been good knowing you, kid. Back to being His Hound for me. As for you... good luck, I guess. I've met worse.

==Bug==
In non-patched versions of the game, there is a serious bug that causes the game to crash on exiting after you return Umbra to Clavicus Vile. The easiest way to fix this is to install the [[Oblivion:Patch|v.1.1.511 patch]]. This glitch occurs on both the PC and XBox 360. After Clavicus Vile has asked you to give him the sword, the game will crash, whether you opt to return it to him or keep it for yourself. The glitch is related to the dog statue that appears in your inventory after you receive the quest, through which the Hound of Clavicus Vile speaks to you and tries to convince you not to complete the quest. If you do not want to install the patch, a few workarounds are:
* You can keep Umbra forever, and never return to talk to Clavicus Vile. The quest will remain forever "active" in your journal. Also, you will be unable to complete [[Oblivion:Hermaeus Mora|Hermaeus Mora]]'s quest.
* You can get Umbra before Clavicus Vile ever gives you the quest, and thus prevent the dog statue from ever appearing in your inventory. Be sure to first talk to [[Oblivion:Ma'Raska|Ma'Raska]] at Clavicus Vile's shrine, causing the quest to update, telling you that you've found the sword and can speak to Clavicus Vile. Talk to the shrine and the quest will be completed without any glitches. Note that in this case killing Umbra count as murder. On the other hand, you do not have to pay the 500 gold offering.
* Other workarounds are less reliable and require very good timing. Return to Clavicus Vile's shrine with Umbra and the dog statuette and talk to Clavicus Vile. As soon as he finishes talking you need to immediately fast travel somewhere else. When the dog then starts to talk to you, open your journal. The timing is critical; it must be as soon as the dog starts talking. If you go to your menu too early the game will crash when you exit; if you press it too late the game will already be frozen. Repeatedly fast travelling has also been reported to work: as soon as the screen loads, open your journal and fast-travel again, until the notification area in the corner of the screen tells you that the Statuette of a Dog has been removed.
* The final possible workaround is to load an earlier saved game from before you started this quest, and retrieve the Umbra sword before speaking to Clavicus Vile.

Oblivion:Hermaeus Mora

2007-03-24T16:43:31Z

FMan: /* Requirements */ fixed a typo

{{Template:Oblivion Quests Daedric Trail}}

{{Quest Header|Giver=[[Oblivion:Casta Flavus|Casta Flavus]]
|Start=[[Oblivion:Hermaeus Mora|The Shrine of Hermaeus Mora]]
|Reward=[[Oblivion:Oghma Infinium|Oghma Infinium]]
|ID=
|Loc=[[Oblivion:Hermaeus Mora|The Shrine of Hermaeus Mora]]
|AddAbove=
|AddBelow=
|Image=OB-Img-ShrineofHermaeusMora.JPG
|ImgDesc=The Shrine of Hermaeus Mora
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Once you've met the requirements, speak with Casta Flavus, or activate the shrine directly.
# Hermaeus Mora will instruct you to collect the souls of one of each race.
# You will receive ''Hermaeus Mora's Soul Gem'' and the ''Mora's Soul Trap'' spell to complete this task.
# Once all souls have been collected, return to the shrine and activate it.
# You are rewarded with the ''[[Oblivion:Oghma Infinium|Oghma Infinium]]'' which will permanently boost a series of stats that you must choose from a list.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Requirements===
Before you can activate the shrine and start this quest, you must meet the following requirements:
* You must have completed all 14 of the other [[Oblivion:Daedric_Quests|Daedric Shrine quests]].
* You must be level 20 or higher.
* You must have at least ''started'' the [[Oblivion:Blood of the Daedra|Blood of the Daedra]] quest (the point in the main quest where Martin asks you for a daedric artifact). It is possible to have finished the quest, but that is not a requirement (in other words, it is possible to use this quest's reward, the [[Oblivion:Oghma Infinium|Oghma Infinium]], as Martin's daedric artifact).
* You can do this quest even if you keep [[Oblivion:Umbra (sword)|Umbra]] in [[Oblivion:Clavicus Vile|Clavicus Vile]]'s quest (although you must visit Clavicus Vile's shrine and tell him that you will not give him Umbra, thus completing the quest).
If you have not yet met the requirements, you will be told by [[Oblivion:Ri'Jirr|Ri'Jirr]]: "You have not yet followed the path required to speak with the Lord Hermaeus Mora". Unlike all other shrines, you will not be given any clues as to what is required, nor will a quest be added to your journal. '''See the [http://www.uesp.net/oblivion/map/obmap.shtml?centeron=Hermaeus%20Mora's%20Shrine%20(Daedric) oblivion map] for the location of this shrine.'''

===The Shrine===
Once you have met the requirements, you can either speak with [[Oblivion:Casta Flavus|Casta Flavus]] first, or you can go directly to the shrine and activate it. Casta Flavus will come to you when you rest after meeting the requirements. Head over to the shrine and activate it. The shrine is due west of [[Oblivion:Cloud Ruler Temple|Cloud Ruler Temple]] and due north of [[Oblivion:Sancre Tor|Sancre Tor]]. Northeast of Sancre Tor, past [[Oblivion:Ninendava|Ninendava]], you can pick up a series of enemy-patrolled paths, steps, and bridges that lead right to the shrine.

===Souls of all Races===
Hermaeus Mora will ask you to capture one soul for each of the 10 [[Oblivion:Races|races]] of [[Tamriel:Tamriel|Tamriel]]. He will give you a ''Hermaeus Mora's Soul Gem'' and the ''Mora's Soul Trap'' spell. The soul gem will only work for this quest and it can only capture souls that are trapped with this unique spell. This spell is cheap to cast and lasts 120 seconds.

One way to complete this quest if you don't want to murder innocent people is go vampire hunting: Vampires are not undead, and are classified as NPCs, therefore their souls count. However, Argonian and Khajiiti vampires do not exist. Try the [[Oblivion:Vampires|Vampires]] page for a list of places where you can find vampires to steal the souls of.

Some places where you can find NPCs of all ten races include:
* [[Oblivion:Arena (faction)|Arena]]: If you do the Arena quests from start to end, you will have to kill at least one member of each race.
* [[Oblivion:People#Daedra Worshippers|Daedric Shrines]]: Representatives of each race can be found at the various Daedric shrines.

Each of the following links leads to a page listing all named NPCs of that race in the game; also provided are generic [[Oblivion:NPCs|NPC]] enemies that can be of each race.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Altmer|Altmer]]: Necromancers, conjurers, and marauder battlemages.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Argonians|Argonian]]: Marauder archers. Also, [[Oblivion:Veyond Cave|Veyond Cave]] (north of [[Oblivion:Bravil|Bravil]]) is filled with hostile Argonian tribesmen.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Bosmer|Bosmer]]: Bandit bowmen.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Bretons|Breton]]: Necromancers, conjurers, and bandit hedge wizards.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Dunmer|Dunmer]]: Bandits.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Imperials|Imperial]]: Marauder archers.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Khajiits|Khajiit]]: Bandits and [[Oblivion:Highwayman|highwaymen]].
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Nords|Nord]]: Marauders.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Orcs|Orc]]: Marauders.
* [[:Category:Oblivion-Redguards|Redguard]]: Bandits.

Once you gather all of the souls and activate the shrine again, Hermaeus Mora gives you a special book as a reward. The book that Hermaeus Mora gives you, the ''[[Oblivion:Oghma Infinium|Oghma Infinium]]'', is a book that when read will permanently boost a series of stats for your character, based on a list of choices that you must choose one of.

==Notes==
* It is possible to trigger this quest without receiving Daedric [[Oblivion:Artifacts|Artifacts]] from each of the other 14 Daedric quests; officially failing a Daedric quest also counts. For example, if [[Oblivion:Melus Petilius|Melus Petilius]] dies, [[Oblivion:Molag Bal|Molag Bal]]'s quest immediately ends without any chance of a reward; however, Molag Bal's quest still counts as far as Hermaeus Mora is concerned. In general, as long as the Daedric quest is in your list of completed quests, it will count. The one exception is [[Oblivion:Namira|Namira]]'s quest, which must be finished correctly (see that quest for details).
* Your Quest log will update for each soul you capture, if it doesn't update when you are sure you had soul trapped a new race then your game has become [[#Bugs|bugged]].

==Bugs==
* Do '''not''' cast the soultrap spell on two different beings (or twice on the same being) within the 120 second time-frame of the spell. This will cause the spell to stop functioning correctly on all future casts regardless of whether you kill the NPCs that you double-cast on or not.
** On the PC, a fixing mod can be downloaded ([http://www.tessource.net/files/file.php?id=2863/ Hermaeus Mora Deadric Quest Fix]). The bug is also fixed in the [http://baldurdash.org/TESOblivion/TESOblivion.html/ Unofficial Oblivion Patch] (if you use it, you don't need the separate patch).
** A workaround is possible on both PC and Xbox 360. Cast the soul trap on an unwanted NPC and then cast it again (within 120 seconds) on the NPC you actually want to trap (at this point, if everything was well a pop-up message would appear telling you that you can only soul trap one person at a time). Now kill the second NPC and you should trap their soul successfully (assuming you needed their soul in the first place!). All ten races can be collected this way, without having to revert to an older save.

* Occasionally you will not be able to soul trap one of the races.
** Saving your game to a new save (be sure to not overwrite the last save made before the start of the quest), quitting out of the game entirely, restarting, and reloading can fix this problem.
** If saving and reloading does not work then you may have to load a game that was saved ''prior'' to the start of Hermaeus Mora quest and redo the quest.
** On the PC, you can use [[Oblivion:Console|console]] commands to bypass the rest of the quest. The command <code>player.setstage 000146AF 40</code> gives you automatic credit for capturing all 10 souls.

User talk:DrPhoton

2007-03-24T16:37:37Z

FMan: <none>

{| border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0";"
|align="right" | {{Cookie|message=Thanks for helping me correct my spelling mistakes, and for doing all of your good work. :D --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 00:27, 19 June 2006 (EDT)}}
| align="left" | {{Cookie|message=For your aid with numerous image-related inquiries, the "skills table" incident, modifying the Ashlander tribal flags (to look ''like'' flags), and your easily recognizable dedication to the Morrowind section and the UESP as a whole. Thank you for the example you set. -- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 18:27, 26 August 2006 (EDT)}}
|}

==A Small Favor: Feedback==
Good day DrPhoton,
I just completed posting a further suggestion on the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]] - specifically regarding the [[Tamriel:Books]] section - and would appreciate your feedback on such, notably as you are both a frequent contributor to the site and were able to lend some valuable aid in sorting out other inquiries of mine. Thus, if you find yourself with a moment to spare, I'd appreciate your stopping by and chiming in on the subject. Thanks!

PostScript: Naturally, feel free to delete this at your leisure. Again, my thanks... 
-- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 10:00, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

==Morrowind:Skills==
I just wanted to drop you a quick line regarding the Morrowind:Skills table, in response to your notes on my talk page. I have since replaced the id tags, and just wanted to see if that cleared up the problems I - inadvertently - created...
Oh, also, I was wondering if (as you seem to be the in-house Morrowind expert) you could weigh in on the three image-related inquiries at the top of my [[User talk:Booyah boy | talk page]] (under the "Site" category). I have over 11,000 images from Morrowind, Bloodmoon, and Tribunal (containing just about every texture and icon found in-game), and was wondering where to place them. Thanks!

== re: Tamriel Templates ==

Please be careful when adding the Tamriel Templates because you may be generating redundant titles, as was the case in [[Bloodmoon:East Empire Company]]. In [[UESPWiki:Style Guide#Sections]] it is mentioned explicitly that you shouldn't start the page with a section that matches the page title. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:49, 5 April 2006 (EDT)
:Yeah, I knew that rule, which was in fact half the cause of this problem. I was trying to save a heap of time by writing a quick template that would auto-categorise a page AND add the header for the pages that wanted it. However because of MW 1.5's transclusion handling that broke category sorting. So I fixed the template and subst:ed it instead, but now I find I apparently hadn't saved the latest change, meaning the headers are never hidden (then again noinclude/includeonly don't seem to stack the way they're meant to anyway). So much for shortcuts. :) Anyway thanks for letting me know, I probably wouldn't have noticed it so soon otherwise. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]] 05:41, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

== Copyright Violation? ==

Check out [[Morrowind Talk:Easter Eggs]]. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 10:49, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

Check out [[Bloodmoon Talk:Miscellaneous Quests]]. --[[User:Elanor|Elanor]] 12:00, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

==Region:Tamriel moved==
When was it decided that the Places namespace is to be created? And what is this:

Page to be deleted

(Moved)

If you moved the pages, what are these? --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 12:37, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

:Can you be more specific? Which page are you talking about? There's no Places namespace that I know of.
:''Page to be deleted (Moved)'' means that the page has been moved and no other page links to it, and it is therefore marked for deletion. To check where it has been moved see the [[Special:log/move|move log]]. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 12:58, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
::There was a reference to "Region:Tamriel moved to Tamriel:Places:", which confused me. So if you move a page, does it automatically leave a "to be deleted" page in place of the page? I'm still new with it so I don't know if it's a feature of the wiki. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 13:22, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
:::When you move a page, the original one is replaced with a redirect link so that links to this page in the rest of the wiki are not broken. If these links are edited to point to the new page, the old page becomes an orphan (no links pointing to it) and can therefore be deleted.
:::I haven't myself moved the [[Region:Tamriel]] page, but I guess it was moved because there is no Region namespace and the content was better suited under the Tamriel namespace. I just put in the Delete template after it was marked for deletion. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 14:43, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
::::Oh, okay, thanks for clearing this up for me. :) --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 16:49, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

== Bloodmoon Books Category ==

I noticed you added some Morrowind books to the Bloodmoon-Books category. I think it makes more sense to only add books that are unique to Bloodmoon to this category. There is already a category for Morrowind Books. --[[User:Elanor|Elanor]] 11:51, 8 April 2006 (EDT)

:The books can be added to both categories then, since they can be found in both games. I din't know there was one already for Morrowind, otherwise I would have done it. I'll add them to the Morrowind category shortly... --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 12:00, 8 April 2006 (EDT)

== UESP News ==

Hello. I am about to post a news update on the front page about on the progress being made here at UESP. Including the progress that you've been contributing with, what are some of the things here you've noticed that have been steadily improved upon recently? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 18:19, 30 June 2006 (EDT)
:Hi. Apart from all the work you've been doing on the general organisation of the site, I have recently noticed a lot of activity on the [[Tamriel:Books]] section. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 10:44, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

== Your user page ==

You really should make a user page. It's been red forever, and it has risen to '''number one''' on the [[Special:Wantedpages|most linked to list]]. A simple "Hey, I'm DrPhoton" would work for me. Of course, you don't have to or anything. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 00:10, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

:You're right, I should write up a user page. I've been wanting to do this for a long time now, but never found the time. Furthermore, I don't just want to put one line, but to write something decent, which delays things even more. Anyway, since I'm honoured (?) to be number one in the wanted list, I'll try to get this sorted out this weekend. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:12, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

::Heh.. No rush ;) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 06:47, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

== 2000 edit count ==

Congratulations on your 2000th edit! --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 15:55, 25 September 2006 (EDT)

:Thank you very much! There's many more to come... :) --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:20, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

== Proposed Solution on "Fake Soul Gem" vs. "A Bet with Galbedir" ==
Would like your input before we implement...see [[Morrowind Talk:A Bet with Galbedir]]. Thanks!--[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 20:27, 7 November 2006 (EST)

== Vibrant Book Skin ==

Looks like you're using the skin that I made. :) If I make any further updates to it, may I update your monobook.css file? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 12:23, 10 November 2006 (EST)

:Yes please! Though watch out, becuase I've made some modifications of my own regarding the thumbnail borders, and I may experiment with the logo. Great skin BTW! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 07:00, 11 November 2006 (EST)

:: Thanks :) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 21:21, 11 November 2006 (EST)

:::Tanks for the update, but as I said, I made modifications of my own regarding the thumbnail. The story is that I have one machine with IE6, where the thumbnail borders appear in black, and another with IE7, where they are transparent (as it should). So I think I'll update IE and problem solved. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:45, 13 November 2006 (EST)

== NPC vs. Place title on the NPC list. Thanks for the input, but... ==

I had those there for a reason. I understand why you may have felt this change was necessary. I'm currently putting together a proposal to revamp the quest pages, and this will have a major impact on any NPC information that's placed on the wiki, so it will be a while before we add any more NPC pages, except for those in locations that are not quest related. Have a little patience please. --[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 08:49, 31 October 2006 (EST)

== Morrowind Stub tag ==
Just wanted to let you know that we now have a Morrowind stub tag, '''<nowiki>{{stub-mw}}</nowiki>'''.--[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 06:24, 18 November 2006 (EST)

:Great! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 12:33, 18 November 2006 (EST)

== Thanks! ==

Thanks for fixing up many of the pages I'm working on!

--[[User:Cdevine|Cdevine]] 12:39, 20 November 2006 (EST)

:No problem. Welcome to the wiki! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:03, 21 November 2006 (EST)

== Transparent Background Images ==

I noticed you've been uploading a bunch of pictures with transparent backgrounds to use with the new skin. However, you should know that these will not work in IE6, which does not support PNG alpha channels. They will only work in IE7 or Firefox. Since, at this time, IE6 is still by far the most common browser being used [http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp], you might want to try an alternate solution for these images. My suggestion would be to leave them as JPGs, and use the background color (#FBEFD5, or RGB=251,239,213) instead of the white. (I convinced Aristeo to remove the textured background and replace it with a solid color for this reason.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 09:28, 29 November 2006 (EST)

:I'm aware of the problem, but I don't have the time nor the software to do that. However, there is a fix for IE6 that can be implemented, and hopefully DaveH will do that soon. This way we would all be able to enjoy images with transparency and would save a lot of hassle (Aristeo may even bring back his textured backgorund). --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 18:46, 29 November 2006 (EST)

== RSS feed ==

I'm asking everyone who has been using the RSS feed to view [[Special:Recentchanges|Recentchanges]] lately to consider avoiding it for the next few weeks. Unfortunately, the server seems to be having some problems with the RSS feed, which is one important factor leading to server shutdowns such as the one that happened this weekend; see [[UESPWiki:Community Portal#UESP server problems]] for more details. So if it would be possible for you to not use RSS until January, when hopefully we can figure what is really going on, I think it would help the site alot. Thank you! --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 11:22, 18 December 2006 (EST)

:No problem! I've just deactived it. Hope this helps. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:02, 19 December 2006 (EST)

::Thanks! Now we just have to wait and see how the server behaves over the next few days :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 10:57, 19 December 2006 (EST)

:::Just a partial update: the site is back up, and most importantly Daveh is checking the site every few days. Which means that a couple random bad connections from the RSS feed won't cause any real problems any more. On the other hand, what causes these bad connections still hasn't been investigated (as far as I know). In other words, I think you can go ahead and reactivate your feed, but I can't guarantee that I won't change my mind :) Actually, if you do restart it, I'm likely to keep an eye on your RSS connections and see if I can use them for debugging... if you wouldn't mind me occasionally asking questions like "do you have any idea what might have been different at 8:30 pm on Tuesday?". --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:55, 7 January 2007 (EST)

::::Thanks for the info. You may use my RSS for debugging if you wish, as it has been not working well for some time now. I've just reenabled it. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:16, 8 January 2007 (EST)

== Patrollers ==
On the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Patrollers|Community Portal]] I made a proposal to start a new group of editors known as patrollers. It's primarily meant to be a way to make life easier for those editors (like you) who regularly monitor the Recent Changes page. Patrollers will have access to a couple of special features, and will be able to keep track of which edits have or have not been checked by other patrollers. I proposed that you should be one of these new patrollers, but I haven't noticed you state whether you'd like to be one. Before passing this proposal on to Daveh to get implemented, I just wanted to confirm that you would like be a patroller. There aren't any strings attached to the offer; the plan is really to reduce editors' workloads, not add any new expectations or task lists. Let me know what you think... thanks! --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:55, 7 January 2007 (EST)

:As I posted on the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Patrollers|Community Portal]], I'd be happy to become a patroller. Thanks for your vote of confidence! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:38, 8 January 2007 (EST)

== Feedback ==

It's nice to see you are still active here. Thank you for you efforts. Keep it up! --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] | http://www.fooman.fi/ 08:45, 17 January 2007 (EST)

:Yes, I'm still active and I'm now a [[UESPWiki:Patrollers|Patroller]], so watch out what you post to the site! ;) --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 08:50, 17 January 2007 (EST)

::Hehe. I will. :) --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] | http://www.fooman.fi/ 09:23, 17 January 2007 (EST)

==Morrowind: Rank Required Quests==
Hey, I've been thinking about the need to put required ranks on every quest page. Basically, I don't see that it is needed if the prerequisite quest had the same rank required. Of course, it isn't that big of a deal, so if you want to keep doing it that way, I have no objection, I just want to be on the same page with you. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 16:20, 22 January 2007 (EST)

:Well I think it makes sense now that we have links to the quests from many other pages (i.e. places, NPCs, etc.) and one may end up on a quest page without having passed through the prerequisite quest before. Also, just for completeness, so that you don't have to go two or three quests before to find out what the required rank is. In any case, it's just one line that doesn't take out any more space (the thumbnail on the right is larger than the datasheet of the quest). --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:05, 23 January 2007 (EST)

== Thanks for your help and the cookies ==

I'm also enjoying myself with both games(Obivion and Morrowind)

I'm playing Obivion now and more often.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 17:41, 22 February 2007 (EST)

:You're welcome! ;) --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 08:17, 23 February 2007 (EST)

== Never mind ==

I'm sorry. Please accept my apology for being an asshole. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 12:37, 24 March 2007 (EDT)

==Sectioning on Morrowind Quest==
I've noticed that you seem to section every single Morrowind Quest, even if there's barely any writing there to section. For example, take the [[Morrowind:Old Blue Fin]] quest page. The entire detailed walkthrough is only 6 sentences long, yet you recently split it into 2 sections. Personally, I think adding to many sections makes the page a little bit cluttered, and I really don't see a reason to section pages for the sake of sectioning. What's your reasoning behind the sections? --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 10:54, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

:I'm doing this for the following reasons:
:#Separate the orders/duties/assignment from the actual walkthrough. Every quest starts with a quest giver telling you what to do, and if you already know that and are just looking for info on how to do it, then it's a good idea to have it separate.
:#Have a close relation between the Quick Walkthrough and the sections. This way someone can quickly identify the steps to complete a quest and read the details on a specific one he/she finds more difficult to complete.
:#Have all quests formatted in a similar way.
:#Encourage, in some way, the expansion of these very concise walkthroughs. I admit that [[Morrowind:Old Blue Fin]] may not be expanded much, but e.g. [[Morrowind:Shipment of Ebony]] could. I have added a note on the cleanup template in some cases.
:I may have gone too far in some cases, if so please let me know. Any feedback?

Oblivion:Oghma Infinium

2007-03-24T16:29:53Z

FMan: god damn "stats"

<noinclude>{{Oblivion Artifact Trail}}

</noinclude>{{Oblivion Artifact Summary
|Image=OB-OghmaInfinium.jpg
|ImageName=Oghma Infinium
|Weight=0.
|Value=0.
|Enchant=+10 to two [[Oblivion:Attributes|Attributes]] +10 to three [[Oblivion:Skills|Skills]]
|Type=Book
|EditorID=DAOghmaInfinium
|ObjectID=000228F1
}}

The '''Oghma Infinium''' is a book which is obtained upon completion of '''[[Oblivion:Hermaeus Mora|Hermaeus Mora's Daedric Shrine]]''' quest. When you read the book, it increases three skills and two attributes by 10 points each, permanently. Which skills and attributes depends which of three paths you choose when you use it. You only get to choose one path, then the book disappears. The choices are as follows:
{| class="greylapse" style="text-align:center"
! !!The Path of Steel!!The Path of Shadow!!The Path of Spirit
|-
|rowspan=2 style="vertical-align:middle"|'''Attributes'''
|[[Oblivion:Speed|Speed]]||[[Oblivion:Agility|Agility]]||[[Oblivion:Intelligence|Intelligence]]
|-
|[[Oblivion:Strength|Strength]]||[[Oblivion:Speed|Speed]]||[[Oblivion:Willpower|Willpower]]
|-
|rowspan=3 style="vertical-align:middle"|'''Skills'''
|[[Oblivion:Blade|Blade]]||[[Oblivion:Light Armor|Light Armor]]||[[Oblivion:Conjuration|Conjuration]]
|-
|[[Oblivion:Blunt|Blunt]]||[[Oblivion:Security|Security]]||[[Oblivion:Destruction|Destruction]]
|-
|[[Oblivion:Heavy Armor|Heavy Armor]]||[[Oblivion:Sneak|Sneak]]||[[Oblivion:Restoration|Restoration]]
|}
Skills can be increased above the usual maximum of 100 points. This is of limited use, however, because skill increases over 100 do not grant special abilities and in general they do not increase damage/armour rating/spell effectiveness/etc. One advantage is that you are able to gain extra levels if the Oghma Infinium raises major skills.

Using this book, all attributes except Endurance, Personality and Luck (but only two of them per character, depending on which Path you choose) can be raised above 100 to at most 110 with a corresponding increase in all derived values, such as Magicka, running speed or carrying capacity.

<includeonly>For more details see the [[Oblivion:Oghma Infinium|Oghma Infinium]] page.</includeonly><noinclude>===Notes===

* Although your attributes are increased by 10, you are not notified of the increases in the upper left of your display in the same way as you are for the skill increases. This is because the game handles the attribute changes differently; it checks what your current attribute is, then adds 10 to it.

* If the skills raised by the Oghma Infinium are major skills to you, they count to raise your level. This means that if more than one of the skills raised are your major skills, you will raise your level more than once. If this happens, the first level increase receives the attribute bonuses that you get per level as normal. However, if you obtain a second or third level increase, subsequent level-ups only allow +1 attribute gains each.

* The Oghma Infinium is considered a quest item and cannot be removed from your inventory, except by giving it to Martin in [[Oblivion:Blood of the Daedra|Blood of the Daedra]] or reading it.

===Bugs===
* Taking the Path of Spirit does not properly increase Willpower, because the script tries to raise it as a skill. This was '''not''' fixed by the [[Oblivion:Patch|v. 1.1.511 patch]], although the [http://baldurdash.org/TESOblivion/TESOblivion.html/ Unofficial Oblivion Patch] will do it. On the PC, you can use a [[Oblivion:Console|console]] cheat to get the willpower you deserve: <code>modpca willpower 10</code>
** An alternative console code is <code>player.setav willpower #</code> (# = what your willpower should be). It is easiest to use this command if you remove any items that have enchantments fortifying your willpower.
** On the 360 no current patch fixes this problem, making the Path of Spirit less attractive. Increasing skills above 100 does not decrease casting cost.
</noinclude>

UESPWiki:Community Portal

2007-03-23T17:29:21Z

FMan: /* DrPhoton's misuse of his privileges */ bah

[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Move Protection|{{PAGENAME}}]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__
This is the '''main discussion forum''' used to discuss the operations, policies, design, and improvement of UESP.

All members of the community are welcome to contribute to this page. Please sign and date your post by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar. If you would like to start a new inquiry, please place it at the bottom of the page with a two-tier (==) heading.

Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
* Existing [[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|policies and guidelines]] have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies.
* If you have a request that requires an [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrator]], you may want to post your comments on the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard|administrator noticeboard]].
* [[UESPWiki:Reference Desk|The reference desk]] is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.

== Contents ==
{| class="greylapse" width=300 style="float: right;"
! Major Discussions
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Bread Crumb Trail|Bread Crumb Trail]] -- ''Active''
* Utility and formatting of bread crumb trails.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Curing Stupidity |Curing Stupidity ]] -- ''Active''
* Dealing with very low quality edits.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Mod Info in Articles |Mod Info in Articles ]] -- ''Active''
* When and where unofficial mods should be included in articles.
* How to organize PC-specific, Xbox-specific, etc. information.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Dispute and Wikiscrolls|Dispute and Wikiscrolls]] ([http://wikiscrolls.org/ Wikiscrolls]) -- ''Inactive''
* A new wiki similar to the UESP.
|-
! Page Archives
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 1|Archive 1]]: Feb. 2005 – June 2006. ''Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]].''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 2|Archive 2]]: June 2006 - July 2006. ''Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]].''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 3|Archive 3]]: Aug. 2006 - Sep. 2006. '' Archived by [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]]''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 4|Archive 4]]: October 2006 '' Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]]''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 5|Archive 5]]: Nov. 2006 - Dec. 2006. '' Archived by [[User:Nephele|Nephele]] and [[User:Wrye|Wrye]] ''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 6|Archive 6]]: Jan-Feb 2007 '' Archived by [[User:Nephele|Nephele]], [[User:Wrye|Wrye]]
|}
__TOC__
 

== Archiving/Subpaging ==
''Use this topic for notes and discussion regarding archiving and subpaging. For previous discussion, see: [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_5#Subpaging|Archive 5]] and [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_6|Archive 6]].''

----
''Moved from former ''Archiving Subpages'' topic. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 02:02, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

There are a couple subpages I'd like to suggest archiving. The main priorities here are a few pages that are resolved and/or mostly resolved, and that contain some of the recent drama that most of us agree we would like to put behind us so we can move on. In particular:
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/De-Adminship Request]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Principles Controversy]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Wikiscrolls Project]]
I'm proposing to create a page [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subpages]] where all of the community portal subpages can be listed; a link to that page would be added to the tables in the [[#Contents|contents]] section. Those subpages that are archived would no longer be listed directly on the Community Portal page, but would still be accessible through the Community_Portal/Subpages page.

A couple of other candidates that could also be considered for archiving (just to reduce the size of the long
tables at the top of the page) are:
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Anonymous Editing]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Copyright Issues]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Morrowind Quest Pages]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Patrollers]]

If at some point in the future there is an interest in resuming one of these discussions, it could easily be moved back to the community portal listing. But in the meantime, having a shorter, more manageable list on this page seems like it would best overall.

Are there any objections to this idea, or to any of the individual selections? Or if enough people state that they're OK with it, then I could go ahead and do it. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:24, 27 February 2007 (EST)

:Sounds good to me [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:27, 27 February 2007 (EST)

:'''Rather than''' start yet another subpage, I've moved the subpage links to the top of the most recent archive subpage. (We should probably start adding to existing archive pages when practical, rather than start new archive subpages, else the length of the archive subpages list itself will become an annoyance.)

:As for the other subpages, I think that it is still too soon. I understand the desire to move on, but I think that it's important in terms of transparency for people who are non-admins for issues to not just suddenly disappear and be swept under the table. But balancing that against the desire for peace, I would suggest waiting a week and then moving Principles and De-Adminship to the archive page in the same way.

:As for the WikiScrolls link, I would prefer that it be left in in place (but add links to the related discussions to the subpage.) Again, the goal is transparency. Users should be able to find out easily about Wikiscrolls and the history behind its formation. The truth is that arguments happen, people get divorced, groups split. The reaons for why that happened should be left available so that new users can easily understand the reasons and make their own decicsions on what it all means.

:PS: We probably need a "This page has been archived" tempate. Maybe like so: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atnhead Wikipedia Archive Template] --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 19:50, 27 February 2007 (EST)

Since time has passed and there's been no objection to my suggestion above, I've aggregated the dispute pages. Again, in the interest of transparency, I think that it's important that users be able to see that there ''was'' a dispute, and be able to easily find the discussions if they're interested. However, I understand the desire to put a painful episode behind us. So as compromise, I've moved the links to individual dispute pages to a single subpage, and linked to that page. Also, in the interest of transparency, I've retained the link to Wikiscrolls.

Also, I'm moved the discussion re archiving here since it's a "meta" discussion about what goes on the page. However, I don't have an objection to this chunk being archived to Archive 6 immediately, since this is just the final archiving note, and again archiving might help us put the dispute behind us. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 02:02, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

I've also added [[Template:Community Portal Archive]] to the top of all archives and archived subpages. Not real pretty (an icon like [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atnhead this] would be nice) and text could be better , but it's better than nothing. And templates are easy to edit... --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 02:37, 16 March 2007 (EDT)

== Mod Info in Articles==
''This discussion has been moved to a subpage, at [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Mod Info in Articles]]. All community members are welcome to continue conributing to the discussion on the subpage.''

== German-language version ==

I'd like to propose to set up a German-language version of this site.
There are, as far as I could see, no good Oblivion and Morrowind sides in German and this is, in my opinion, the best side on the Elder Scrolls. So I'd like to translate articles on Oblivion in German for those whose English is not good enough to understand them.
Please tell me what you think about it. [[User:Trillian|Trillian]] 01:28, 27 January 2007 (CET)

:Personally, I'd have no problem with it. Still, there might be a problem with the copyright laws that would prevent it, and I'm not Dave either. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 19:38, 26 January 2007 (EST)

: You'd need Daveh's permission to start a German wiki under the name UESP, and you would need to ensure that you license everything under the BY-SA license. (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 19:48, 26 January 2007 (EST)

What does everyone think about creating a German-language section within UESP, instead of relying upon a separate site? For example, we could create a namespace dedicated to german articles on Oblivion, maybe named "OblivionDe". The German-language introduction page would then be at OblivionDe:Oblivion, and a page like [[Oblivion:Ingredients_German]] would be moved to OblivionDe:Ingredients (or translate the title, too, so perhaps OblivionDe:Zutaten). There wouldn't be any copyright issues if the content is still located at UESP. I think supporting German (or other language) content is completely consistent with UESP's goal of providing a comprehensive website describing the Elder Scrolls games... as long as there editors who are interested in doing some of the work translating pages. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 03:31, 27 January 2007 (EST)

:If there are people wanting to create the pages and update them I can't see any real reason not to let them tbh. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:58, 27 January 2007 (EST)

: Well, if Jadrax could round up some friends that are interested in developing a German-language wiki, then I don't see why not. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 07:19, 27 January 2007 (EST)

What Nephele said was more what I had in mind. Sorry I did make myself clearer last night. The thing is that I know quite a few people whose English is good enough to find their way around on an English side but not to read longer or complicated articles. And this side is so great when it comes to giving detailed information about the game, especially the Gameplay Information
and the In-Depth Guides. They help a lot more when you are new to one of the games then a walkthrough for a quest (at least it that way was for me). So I figured that translating the articles and putting them in here would help a lot of people. But only if it is ok with the editors here. But the point with asking Daveh is true and I will ask him. I just wanted to make sure that I won't offend other people here and that there are people who willing to help since, even though I am willing to do a lot, it might be a bit to much to do it alone. :-) [[User:Trillian|Trillian]] 13:22, 27 January 2007 (CET)

:Sounds like a good idea. :) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 07:42, 27 January 2007 (EST)

: While I haven't given much thought to translations I'm perfectly fine with people translating site articles either on or off the site (I get requests from time to time). If we're going to do much translation on the site, however, I'd prefer a solution like how Wikipedia handles articles in multiple languages. I don't know much about at the moment but will look into it, and if others know more about it feel free to let me know. I'd rather use a good system from the start even it takes some effort rather than having issues further down the line. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 12:38, 29 January 2007 (EST)

== Blocking Policy ==

I've written up a new page to provide a proposed [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]]. The intent is to provide some consistency about when and how accounts are blocked, and also to have some guidelines in place ahead of time in case any incidents arise related to blocked accounts. I'd welcome any feedback on the policy at [[UESPWiki Talk:Blocking Policy|its talk page]]. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:44, 10 February 2007 (EST)

== Protected Pages ==

A discussion has been started on the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard#Protected Pages|Administrator Noticeboard]] about the site's current [[UESPWiki:Protection Policy|policy on protecting pages]]. In particular, there has been discussion about whether editors feel that they need to be able to directly edit the [[Main Page]], and whether that ability justifies increasing the risk of vandalism to the main page. Any editors who have opinions about these issues are welcome to contribute to the discussion on the Administrator Noticeboard. (All editors are always free to contribute to any discussions on that page; I just wanted to make sure that the community was aware of this particular discussion). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:29, 11 February 2007 (EST)

== Changes to Introductory Pages ==

Looking back on some changes that I made yesterday to [[UESPWiki:Helping Out]] and [[UESPWiki:Getting Started]] (and earlier to [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines]]) I realized that I introduced a shift in some policy, and wanted to point the changes out to the community and make sure that I didn't make any unacceptable changes. The issue is whether new editors should be encouraged to read all the policies and guidelines ''before'' getting started, or whether they should be encouraged to just start editing first and come back and learn about the policies and guidelines ''later''.

A pre-existing statement on [[UESPWiki:Helping Out|Helping Out]] described the policies and guidelines as:
:''Important rules and guidelines that you should try to become familiar with before editing''
That statement is still there (under [[UESPWiki:Helping Out#See Also|See Also]]). But I added a paragraph to [[UESPWiki:Getting Started#Editing Pages|Getting Started]] that basically says start editing without worrying about making mistakes; learn the rules later. And I earlier changed the introduction to [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines]], in particular stating explicitly:
:''New editors on the site are not required to read through all of these policies and guidelines; they are '''not''' a list of rules that must be understood before participating in the site.''
My basic feeling is that the new editors who most need to read the rules (i.e., those who add first-person stories or even those who vandalize) are the ones who are least likely to ever even look at pages like "Helping Out", "Getting Started", and "Style Guide"; they'll never even see any warnings placed there. The editors who ''will'' read through these pages before starting to edit are those who are fundamentally concerned about doing things properly and basically aren't going to be breaking any rules. I think it's important to tell those editors not to worry and just dive in; I don't want anyone to be so intimidated by the rules that they never get involved.

This isn't really an earth-shattering change to the wiki :) But I think it does perhaps represent some of the basic assumptions that we make when interacting with new editors who make mistakes. Do we say "you should have already read all the rules" and assume that they are aware that they made a mistake? Or do we assume that they probably don't know the rules and instead say "you probably didn't know this, but this is how we generally do things around here".

Or maybe my recent spree of policy-writing has left me paranoid about the little things and I should just stop worrying about obscure details that nobody else will ever read ;) In any case, let me know if you have any thoughts. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 18:54, 16 February 2007 (EST)

==Fanfiction and Fanart==
Maybe it's just me, but I feel that the content on those sections is unencyclopedic and a bit...I don't know that it belongs here. There are two Oblivion fics and one Morrowind, so it's not a well-beloved section. I dunno, I almost want to see them deleted. [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:58, 21 February 2007 (EST)
:Another option that I just thought of is to move them to the User namespace, as subpages of the user who created them. And delete the links from [[Oblivion:Oblivion]] and [[Morrowind:Morrowind]]. It would remove them from the main article namespace (which is supposed to be encyclopedic) but is less controversial than a deletion. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:24, 21 February 2007 (EST)
:The site is not intended to be a 'pure encyclopedia' and I certainly welcome mind such content. It does, however, need to be clearly distinguished from the rest of the encyclopedic-type content. It doesn't really belong in any of the game namespaces even if closely related to a particular game. Offhand the only thing I can think of is to add it to a new '''FanFiction''' namespace. This is particularily relevant as someone recently e-mailed me some fan-fiction to put somewhere and I have to figure out where. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 14:51, 21 February 2007 (EST)

::Perhaps instead of creating a whole namespace for four articles they could be put into "General", with an index article "General:Fanfiction" that lists them all?
::Somewhat off-topic, but while checking what currently lives in the "General" namespace, I also noticed that there's a "Review" namespace with nothing in it. Was there an intended purpose for that namespace? In part I'm wondering because this discussion also prompted me to make some suggestions at [[Oblivion_Talk:Review Page]] about relocating some user reviews. Or should the "Review" namespace be recycled, since we're talking about a couple new namespaces ("Shadowkey", "Shivering")? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:10, 21 February 2007 (EST)

::Well, I think this is really a small issue. As Somercy noted, the number of fanfics on the site is quite small. That being said, I think that a new section for both reviews, fanArt, and fanfics would allow us to differentiate that content from the rest of the site. All we'd need is a simple disclaimer at the top of the page saying something like this:
::'''This section contains information created by the fanbase, such as reviews, fanfictions, and fanart based upon the Elder Scrolls Series of games.'''
::Any comments?--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 17:44, 21 February 2007 (EST)
:::If providing space for fanfic is part of the mandate for the site, (Which as it's DaveH's site and he says it is, I think we can take as written,) then clearly it should be in an area outside the CC Licence. I would suggest making a separate name space, full of pages that were locked to prevent editing. This is an additional admin burden though, as new pages created would have to be locked (Or deleted if they were not up to standard, and how you measure that is yet another issue.) [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 23:21, 24 February 2007 (EST)

:'''I agree with Somercy -- Fanfics don't belong here.''' In addition to being out-of-place, there are several logistical problems:
:* Potentially it can explode in size with little oversight. They're not data entries, but rather, original creative works. Which means that they won't be subject to the normal wiki process of review, winnowing and improvement. Wiki content works because it's open to continual review and upgrading. Without such review we can end up with total garbage on the site.
:* So, if you don't want total garbage on the site, how do you select it? You need some review and voting policy -- sort of an art committee. Which would be a pain to setup, and would lead to inevitable arguments and fights, since when it comes to such work, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Vs. current fact based work which we have now, which is ultimately subject to testable fact -- a (relatively) clear, testable standard.
:* The site is under CC license. Which means that if someone puts a fanfic on the site, then anyone else has the option to edit and change it around completely. Most authors won't like this. And again, there's no objective standard. Who's to say that my modification of the someone else's story (with more tender love scenes, '''or''' less tender love scenes, more fighting, '''or''' less bombastic writing) is better?
:* There are plenty of sites which are dedicated to supporting fan fiction. Their design is better suited to it. For example, a very quick web search returns [http://www.fanfiction.net/l/2508/3/0/1/1/0/0/0/0/0/1/ fanfiction.net: Oblivion].
:--[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 23:19, 21 February 2007 (EST)
::Wrye, you made my points even more coherent...marry me? [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:38, 22 February 2007 (EST)
::: :) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 19:18, 23 February 2007 (EST)

::::Overall, I agree that fanfiction doesn't seem to belong on a wiki. For now, though, I'm going to move them to the General namespace and add categories and bread crumb trails. This will at least avoid having readers confuse them for articles about the games. And it's also part of some reorganization that I'm doing with the general namespace that will hopefully make it a bit easier for readers to find content located there. Since I'm on a roll right now, I'm going to go ahead and do it... from the previous comments it doesn't seem like anyone objects to the idea. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:35, 2 March 2007 (EST)
:::Is there any set way of submitting fanfics here? Or do you just create a page in the proper place? [[User:24.1.3.132|24.1.3.132]] 10:50, 3 March 2007 (EST)
::::Just create a page in the General Namespace, and link it off [[General:Fanfiction]]--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 10:56, 3 March 2007 (EST)
:::::Cool! Thanks, I sometimes have trouble navigating this wiki... [[User:24.1.3.132|24.1.3.132]] 10:58, 3 March 2007 (EST)

== Stupidity on [[Morrowind:Hints]] ==
''This discussion has been added to the the subpage [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Curing Stupidity#February 2007: Morrowind:Hints]]. All community members are welcome to continue contributing to the discussion on the subpage.''

==Content Policy==
It has recently come to my attention that the official forums have updated their [http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=644278 Adult/Mature Content] rules. Now, on the surface, this does appear to interfere with our site, but according to the new rules:

''Q: Can I link to the website for a mod with adult content, or to the mod itself, as long as that site doesn’t have any pictures? What if I include a disclaimer in my post?

''A: In all of these cases the answer is no. It's not acceptable to simply include a disclaimer in your post, and even if that site doesn’t have pictures you still can’t link to it. We don’t like this sort of content as it creates problems for us, so you’ll have to be a little forgiving when dealing with our rules. If you have a question about what percentage of a site can contain these kinds of mods, there’s a good chance you’re going to have a problem with it.''

Since our website includes references to such mods as [[Tes3Mod:Better_Bodies#Bodies|Morrowind's Better Bodies]], it seems that this rule does apply to us, and we need have some type of disclaimer page before entering the site from the Official Forums, which I imagine we get quite a bit of traffic from with their help sections. I've talked to at least one of the mods (Summer) over there who said, ''"I think it may need a disclaimer page. We are still waiting to see if it can be arranged for there to be a host page from here. I will bring up Wiki Ratwar as it is linked constantly in the spoilers section and it does have links there to Psychodogs and BB's. I will get clarification on that as we may need to use a disclaimer page when linking there."''

Obviously, both parties want to make sure that the UESP is accessible to the official forums, so does anyone have any thoughts on this?--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 21:59, 23 February 2007 (EST)

:This isn't a personal criticism, Ratwar, but when it comes to legal BS, the correct thing '''to not take the initiative'''. If you don't ask, they don't have to stay "No" or "You have to change it." By asking, it means that they have to go to their lawyers and say "What about UESP?" At which point the lawyers have to say "No." So, if you don't ask they don't have to say. Going forward I would suggest that we do nothing until they lodge as specific complaint.

:Second note. If you'll follow the (very long and tedious discussion), there's the legal rule and there's what they say they will enforce, which are totally different things. If you follow the logic of the rule that they state at the beginning "Can't link to websites.. etc.", then clearly linking to most major ES websites would be forbidden. (In fact, even more ridiculously, you wouldn't be able to link to the ESF forum or to the main Oblivion website because it has been rated "Mature".)

:What they say they will enforce is much milder -- and also massively undefined. My read on this is that Bethesda doesn't ''want'' to clarify it -- because the more they clarify it, the more they have to say "No", and the more they antagonize modders, and cause major modding sites to become unlinked to. And Bethesda isn't stupid, the truth is that all of those websites (including UESP) help keep their games on shelves selling. (And Morrowind, a 4-5 year old game on the PC is still selling on store shelves -- that's amazing in the PC world -- and is largely due to the presence of mods.) So, again, they don't ''want'' to place restrictions on us -- if we don't ask, we won't force them to.

:Third note. The most annoying thing that struck me when reading through the discussion last night is that '''we're probably already covered by their rules!''' (Grrr. So much for a principled stand!) The Better Bodies page:
:*Already states says that ''Better Bodies portrays realistic nude human (and elf and orc) bodies. For those who would prefer it, a permanent underwear version is available for all races.'' I.e., there's already a disclaimer.
:*Contains no direct links to nude screenshots, or even screenshots of risque armor.
:*In fact, one of the posting guideliness for the page is: ''If the armor is adult rated (e.g., some of Cenobite's armor), then out of common courtesy to those who might be offended: 1) Don't add a link to an r-rated screenshot. 2) Do add a warning in the description."

:So for now, I would say:
:* '''Quit taking the initiative.''' Let Bethesda take the initiative and lodge a complaint with us if they like. They have a very long term relationship with Dave and will certainly do this if they feel the need.
:* If they make a more specific request, point out that the page already meets the standards that they've set out.
:* If that's not enough, then we should see what they request and then debate that request here.

:Final note: I know that the many/most contributors here have a pretty obsessive mindset -- and the natural inclination of that mindset is to seek clarification when faced with ambiguity. But in the legal world, shadows, greyness and vagueness are often desirable (kind of like playing a thief). If you force them to shine more light into that area, you'll most likely force them to say things that both they and we (as the modding/mod playing community) don't want them to say. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 23:14, 23 February 2007 (EST)

::I have to agree with Wrye here, best to not worry about legal stuff unless your a trained lawyer, if Beth's lawyers have an issue we will be told about it, otherwise any changes made may well do more harm than good. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 12:50, 24 February 2007 (EST)

:: Just as an appendum...Bethesda is well aware of the UESP and I get the occasional notice to take down certain copyrighted materials (like map/manual scans). If there was something on this site that they felt wasn't appropriate I'd be sure to hear about it. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 15:47, 2 March 2007 (EST)

== UESP Server Status ==

I've noticed prolonged hang time on some pages today. E.g., while starting a new talk page just a few minutes ago. Earlier today I was completely unable to bring up Special:System Messages, even though other pages would load just fine at the same time. Is the server under additional load?

Or is it perhaps an ad thing? Perhaps there's prolonged delays the first time google tries to figure out what ads to apply to a particular page? I noticed that the ads for the new page that I created were indeed suited to the text of the page that I was creating -- so google must have been doing an immediate processing of the page. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 00:59, 26 February 2007 (EST)

:I haven't even been checking the site's server status over the last few days... a few other things keeping me busy ;) But a quick check right now suggests that UESP is not at all overloaded at the moment. It is possible that the ads are creating an additional delay as you suggest. The ads are obviously trying to be smart (although I've noticed a few pages where they were completely off base). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 01:11, 26 February 2007 (EST)

:I have been noticing some delays during the last month or so, too. Especially with the [[Special:Recentchanges]] page, when looking at a large number of changes (500 or so). Sometimes it even downloads with the wrong style sheet (the default monobook) or the old logo. Other times, when I click on a diff listed there I get an Error 503 page. I don't know what all this means, but you may have some ideas (I hope). --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:56, 26 February 2007 (EST)

::Seems to me that it's refreshing slower if it's in a tabbed browser? (I have 2 copies of firefox open, one with 13 tabs open and one with one tab open, the one with 1 is much faster to refresh the same page.) [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:08, 26 February 2007 (EST)

: I encountered a few slow downs last week that seemed to be related to the overall site (pauses of 30 seconds or so when no connection would work). I couldn't find an obvious cause to this (no excessive/hanging connections, no DoS, no hanging/crashed processes, etc...). On a guess I disabled the throttle extension I added to the web server some time ago (it wasn't doing anything and the original problem turned to not be related to bandwidth anyways).
:While I haven't encountered the same slowdowns since let me know if anyone else is still getting them, how often, when, etc.... and I'll continue to look into it. Things like the ads and other settings can be easily changed/disabled and then let run for a few days to see if it helps at all. Intermittent problems like this are always a pain to track down as its hard for me to catch 'in the act'. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 18:50, 28 February 2007 (EST)

::It seems to have worked. I am not experiencing any problems so far now. Thanks! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:42, 1 March 2007 (EST)
:::Aye, back to working fin here as well [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 05:51, 1 March 2007 (EST)

==Daggerfall Pages==
I only looked at Witch Covens first because it seemed interesting. That sad fact is, all Daggerfall pages need serious work. I'd like to suggest forming a project like the Morrowind Design group to format and wikify the Daggerfall pages. I can't do it alone; I don't know the game... [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:36, 28 February 2007 (EST)
:I would really like to help, but (and there's always a but) I'm up to my eyes in Morrowind stuff, don't own Daggerfall, and want to begin helping the Tamriel Section eventually. The problem with Daggerfall is that it is quite old, so very few people have the game and are active on the wiki. Plus, unlike Arena, it hasn't been released into the public domain. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 12:49, 28 February 2007 (EST)
::Admittedly, but if we're gonna stock the pages on the wiki, we ought to keep them clean. I don't own it, myself, but I'd like to try to slog through the muck...[[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:54, 28 February 2007 (EST)
:::It looks like two simultaneous conversations have started on this topic: see also [[Daggerfall Talk:Daggerfall]]. That might be the better place to continue the discussion, although having a link here will help to let people know about it. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 14:29, 28 February 2007 (EST)

== A problem with logging in. ==

Whenever i log in it will show i have, but when i go back to the page i was on i get logged back out. is it because the account's new? [[User:67.142.130.49|67.142.130.49]] 22:35, 2 March 2007 (EST)

: Do you have cookies enabled? That might be a result of not having cookies enabled. Also, make sure your not looking at old cache by hard refreshing the page that tells you that your logged out. (CTRL+F5 in most browsers) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 23:06, 2 March 2007 (EST)

Cookies seem to be enabled, and Hard refreshing didn't work. [[User:67.142.130.49|67.142.130.49]] 23:24, 2 March 2007 (EST)

: Could you try using another browser or another computer? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 23:32, 2 March 2007 (EST)

I just tried Firefox and it didn't work, also I'm logged in when i exit the web browser and reopen it, but it still logs me out[[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 23:42, 2 March 2007 (EST)

:Are you saying that you log in, then use backspace to go back to the page you were previously viewing? What happens if you only go forwards while browsing and never go backwards in the page's history? Do you stay logged in then? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:31, 3 March 2007 (EST)

When i go back to the page where i'm logged in it's the same, the problem is I can't go to a new page without logging out. It shows that i'm not logged in in the corner. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 00:46, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I log in, and then I click on somthing like Main page or Recent Changes and i'm not logged in anymore.[[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 00:55, 3 March 2007 (EST)

:Thanks for clarifying that :) It really sounds to me like an issue with cookies. In Firefox, for example, under Tools -> Options -> Cookies, my settings are checked for "Allow sites to set cookies", unchecked for "for the originating site only", unchecked for "unless I have removed cookies set by the site" and keep cookies is set to "until they expire". In IE6, under Tools -> Internet Options -> Privacy I have it set to "medium" and (under advanced) the box "override automatic cookie handling" is unchecked. You might want to check whether somehow UESP has been added to an override list (in Firefox, under "Exceptions", in IE under "Sites") that is always blocked, or even try adding it to the list of explicitly always-allowed sites, at least for long enough to see whether that makes a difference. Hopefully some of those settings will help. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 01:30, 3 March 2007 (EST)

It's still not working, everything's set to allow cookies and it still dosen't work. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 01:53, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Everything points to a cookie problem but the options seem okay. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 01:57, 3 March 2007 (EST)
:Are you by any chance operating on a computer with user-restrictions, such as a school computer? These often have strict security measures in place that can interfere with the standard cookie operation. Not much you can do in that case, other than try and convince the school's I.T. people to stop being overly paranoid jerks. (Good luck with that.) What I don't get is that you were able to log in before, and you can't now. Very strange. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 01:58, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I'm on my own computer but it use to be a display model at a electronics store. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 02:06, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I just tried going directly to the url for editing of this page and i was logged in on the editing page but it signed my name as my IP address. I'm automaticly logged in when i go to any url on this site the first time after opening the web browser but when i go anywhere else it shows that i'm logged out [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 02:14, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Maybe I'm missing a cookie? [[User:67.142.130.36|67.142.130.36]] 17:45, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I just noticed that if I go to the main page from anywhere else on the site i'm logged back in, but it still logs me out if i go somewhere else on the site. Edit: Only on firefox. [[User:67.142.130.36|67.142.130.36]] 17:50, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Odd, I started a wikipedia account to see if i would have the same problem and I did, but now it's fine, i still have the problem over here. edit: nevermind, it started again. [[User:67.142.130.18|67.142.130.18]] 23:46, 3 March 2007 (EST)

:You could try just doing a complete browser cache reset. Delete all history and cookies and start again. It may be the cookie file exists but is corrupted somehow. Also wondering - though it may not be relevant - are you on dial-up? Just noticing that your IP has changed 3 times just in this discussion. (Though only the last number, which implies you have a dynamic IP of some sort, which is usually dial-up.) I don't know if that could affect your ability to log in, but there's a possibility it could be related? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 00:09, 4 March 2007 (EST)

I just tried in both firefox and IE7, and i have Hughesnet. [[User:67.142.130.18|67.142.130.18]] 00:34, 4 March 2007 (EST)

== General resolving thingy ==

Previously I brought a question related to a page here for the reason that questions presented in the Talk page of various pages usually do not get any kind of a reaction from anybody. Is there really a need for a page such as Oblivion:Imperial_Sewers_N._Exit/Directions? What's its purpose? That's what I want to know now. Then, I would like to propose that a specific talk page be designated for this kind of enquiries that concern a single page or a group of pages, but these questions would be resolved in a centralized manner instead of taking place on a variety of talk pages most editors seem to ignore. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 22:46, 7 March 2007 (EST)

== DrPhoton's misuse of his privileges ==

I am extremely dissatisfied with the recent misconduct of the user [[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]]. I challenged his edit on [[Morrowind:Quests]] and called for a consensus decision. DrPhoton responded in a completely inapproriate way: he reverted my edit. Doing so, he set me on the same line with vandals.

First of all, I cannot begin to emphasize enough, how inappropriate reverting my edit was in a case of an editorial dispute. First, because it is not the proper method of developing pages and second, because the case simply did not warrant a revert. My edit was an editorial decision, not vandalism that should have been '''reverted'''.

This can only be described as a gross misuse of administrative privileges of DrPhoton, to use his ability to revert, as a tool to force his view. I did learn something myself - I should check the page history before making an edit that contradicts a previous one and I will try to keep this in mind for the future.

However, the fact that I made an edit that in practice restored the page as it was before, can not be interpreted to allow such measures as taken by DrPhoton. Reverting edits that are not vandalism to restore your edit after another editor has disagreed with you is nothing but asking for an edit war.

The only reason which causes it to be avoided is that I'm not that childish. I cannot understand why DrPhoton refused to wait for the issue to be resolved before taking further action. Moreover, the action that he took was completely out of order and without any kind of basis as DrPhoton was unable to back his story.

He refered me to a generic conversation and went on to say "I consequently removed the links of the cities not having any miscellaneous quests left that start there", which was his personal decision only and in no form previously discussed by the community. This also did not give a response to my reasons of disputing the edit.

My arguments are: 1. Balmora is one of the most prominent cities in the game and for that reason alone its lacking is weird. 2. I don't think I'm so different from normal people that they aren't going to have the same reaction arriving to that page when I did: "where on Earth is Balmora". 3. There is absolutety no reason given for the fact that it's simply missing.

I don't want this to turn into another Aristeo vs. Wrye, from which I stayed well clear of - it can't since the opposite party is an Administrator, and I'm just an editor. This setup makes it even more inappropriate for DrPhoton to misuse his administravite privileges against me in what should have been a purely editorial dispute. Furthermore, the matter should have been discussed before ANY action, as I proposed.

DrPhoton isn't listed as an Administrator, but yet shomehow he has the power to revert edits. A power he blatantly misused to his advantage in an editorial dispute. His behavior was so unprofessional and unsportsmanlike, any special privileges DrPhoton has, but have for some reason been hidden from the community, must be removed, because he cannot be trusted with them.

I would like to ask the opinions of other editors and administrators on this matter. The initial dispute now pales in comparison as the improper way in which DrPhoton handled the case now has tenfold meaning. The whole issue could have been solved easily if it wasn't for the offensive reverting done by him.

There needs to be made a definitive decision whether an administrative tool is allowed to be used by those trusted to have access, to push their personal editorial views. This is the first known case where my edits have been outright reverted and I am taking it as a personal insult. I will be expecting an apology. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 08:04, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:ok, first i think you should take a deep breath and calm down. Secondly It makes no sense to take away DrPhotons secret Admin powers to revert, as every editor has them, its not a big deal or secret society of reverters type thing. Third, you don't actually provide any links to anything in your text, so I am having a lot of difficulty following what the problem is. Finally please do not take insult at this, in no way are you being labeled a vandal. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 08:43, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:This issue is sort of more hyped that it should be. Balmora, Dagon Fel, and Gnaar Mok do not have any quests starting in the city itself, they all have ''related'' quests only or quests that belong to another faction (i.e.: mage's guild). The [[Morrowind:Quests#Cities_and_Towns|Cities and Towns]] section of the page is for miscellaneous quests ''starting'' in those cities, quests that are ''related'' to those cities go on the [[Morrowind:Miscellaneous Quests]] page. Also, any editor can revert an edit (all you do is go to history and edit a non-current entry), and reverting is not a vandal-only action. Reverting is just a multi-action tool that is easier than re-editing a page to remove all its unnecessary changes. The changes were not needed (as explained above), and they were dealt with in one quick edit (the revert) that fixed all of it. I don't know if you had already talked with DrPhoton about the edit other than just posting on his talk page that his edits were "disgusting," so you may have wanted to just ''ask'' him why he made that edit. --[[User:Werdnanoslen|Werdnanoslen]][[User talk:Werdnanoslen|Talk]] 10:44, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

::It's going to take me a bit more time to fully understand what this is about. But first I want to clearly state that '''DrPhoton has no administrative privileges'''. He did not use any administrative tools or other special powers here, because he doesn't have any. The only "special" privileges DrPhoton has are those of a [[UESPWiki:Patrollers|patroller]], but being a patroller does not give an editor any special editing powers; all that being a patroller provides is the power to see red exclamation points next to edits and remove those exclamation points. So most of FMan's complaints seem to be based on a significant misunderstanding and can't be addressed. For example, a "definitive decision whether an administrative tool is allowed to be used" can't be done because there was no use of an administrative tool in this case. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 12:36, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:Oh boy, this seems to be a huge misunderstanding. I don't see any misuse of editor powers by DrPhoton. All I see is a simple editor revert, with an explanation attached to it. I don't really think a clear consensus has been established over whether or not there should be links to the Balmora page, but once again, DrPhoton has done nothing wrong. There was no 'edit war'. I hope we can lay this all to rest --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 14:04, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

::Looking over what happened, I don't see that DrPhoton did anything here that is different from what FMan himself did. According to [[UESPWiki:Consensus]], neither [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind%3AQuests&diff=96879&oldid=95519 FMan's edit] nor [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind%3AQuests&diff=96998&oldid=96879 DrPhoton's edit] probably should have been done (although this is the one paragraph of that page that still needs more work, see [[UESPWiki_Talk:Consensus#Wrye 1]], so what is truly appropriate is somewhat murky). Both in essence just reverted the page to a previous version; probably neither one should have modified the page if they felt that they issue needed to be discussed in order to be resolved.
::The most important principle however is '''[[UESPWiki:Assume Good Faith|Assume Good Faith]]'''. Although perhaps reverting the edit was not the best judgement call, I see no reason to think that DrPhoton made his edit in bad faith or that he somehow meant to sabotage the consensus process. I definitely don't see that anything in DrPhoton's actions suggests that he considered FMan's edit to be "vandalism". He provided an edit summary with a good explanation of why he made the change ("reverted last edit by FMan: Balmora, Dagon Fel and Gnaar Mok don't have any miscellaenous quest starting there"), and [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind_Talk%3AQuests&diff=97066&oldid=96880 contributed] to the discussion started by FMan on the talk page with a more detailed explanation. And just to re-emphasize my previous point: the revert he made was done using standard editor privileges; even an anonymous IP editor could have made the exact same edit. There is no foundation to the allegation that he somehow misused secret administrative powers. If these reverts had continued this would have become an edit war, but as it stood, it was just one round of reverts, and there had not been any clear call made to stop making edits until the issue was resolved.
::I also see no reason to believe that this issue would not have been resolved if FMan had continued to contribute to the talk page discussion instead of disrupting the entire process with these allegations. DrPhoton appeared willing to discuss the edits on the talk page. If FMan felt that he wanted more general input on the question in order to get a community consensus, he should have simply asked for more people's opinions. In the early part of a discussion it is far more productive for everyone to simply contribute to the discussion with their opinions (if necessary overlooking any minor errors in judgement), than to jump to conclusions and start making accusations about other people's motives. Try to remember that everyone shares the same main objective: trying to improve UESPWiki. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 14:27, 11 March 2007 (EDT)
:::Ditto. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 15:26, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:It appears that, upon closer inspection, this has turned out to be a problem of perception, rather than behaviour. FMan had apparently gained the impression that reversion of an edit carries a much greater implied rebuke than is commonly understood, and felt that his good-faith contribution had been likened to vandalism by DrPhoton. Furthermore, he was apparently unaware that reversion is merely a term for a specific editing trick that any editor can employ, not a special administration tool, and consequently assumed that DrPhoton A) possessed administrator privileges, and B) had exploited his higher status unfairly to enforce his opinion in a way not open FMan himself. Given these impressions - erroneous, though understandable - I don't think it was wrong of him in his perceived situation to cry foul publicly.
:Now that the misconceptions have been cleared up, and FMan can be assured of a "level playing field" between himself and DrPhoton, I hope he is willing to discuss the matter further on the relevant talk page, without the need for mediation -- [[User:JustTheBast|JustTheBast]] 15:52, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

:I agree with Nephele and JustTheBlast. It's understandable that you are upset, DrPhoton may have acted a little quickly, but he did give a explanation. I think you both should apologize to eachother and put this behind you. --[[User:67.142.130.46|67.142.130.46]] 17:46, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

FMan, I am sorry you felt you were treated like a vandal, that was certainly '''not''' my intention. Please note that reverting is not something solely reserved for vandalism. Also note that the same could have been said about your previous [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind%3AQuests&diff=96879&oldid=95519 edit]. Furthermore, I didn't use any special privileges because I have ''none'' apart from those of a [[UESPWiki:Patrollers|patroller]], as certified by Nephele above, and I didn't use any special tool, I just edited my [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Morrowind:Quests&oldid=95519 previous version] of the page, as Werdnanoslen explained. I could indeed have used the [[Special:Patrol|Patrol Tool]] to revert the edit, but in this case I didn't.

Having said this, I think we would have saved all this hassle if you had continued the discussion started in [[Morrowind Talk:Quests]] or if you had come to [[User talk:DrPhoton|my talk page]] with your concerns, rather than accusing me openly of things I haven't done. In any case, I am willing to put this behind and continue our discussion on [[Morrowind Talk:Quests]], inviting anyone else to give their inputs to reach a consensus on the matter before any more edits are made. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 04:48, 12 March 2007 (EDT)
:I no longer wish to contribute to UESP. Good bye! --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 13:29, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

== New Warning Messages ==

I've created a new page of standard [[UESPWiki:Warnings|warning messages]] and notices. Hopefully this page will make it easier to post official-looking warning messages on user talk pages. Also, it provides several notices to use as a starting point when pointing out some common mistakes to new editors. Feel free to give the system a try the next time you notice a problem (I've added a convenient link to the page on the top of the [[Special:Recentchanges|recent changes]] page). Feedback on how to make the system as useful as possible is welcome (here or on the [[UESPWiki Talk:Warnings|warnings talk page]]). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 01:54, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

: Looks good! <tt>:)</tt> I placed all of my warning pages under [[UESPWiki:Speedy Deletion|speedy deletion]] ([[:Category:Speedy Deletion|cat]]) since you decided to make your own. If you want to use them, feel free to take what you want before deleting them. (I release those pages I marked for speedy deletion into the public domain, so don't worry about having to keep them around for copyright reasons if you decide to use their content.) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 12:45, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

== Morrowind ingredient lists ==

(copied from [[User talk:TheRealLurlock]])

I've found two on external sites - [http://morrowind.melian.cc/restocking_vendor_list.php here] and [http://www.wolfiesden.com/games/morrowind/alchemyvendors.asp here] - since the data is all compiled from stuff copyrighted by Bethesda (same as the ingredients and alchemy effect lists), could either of these (they're the same) be copied here directly? [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] 09:38, 18 March 2007 (EDT)

== Transparent Namespaces ==

The way UESP uses [[UESPWiki:Namespaces|namespaces]] is pretty different from the standard wiki setup and it is, frankly, probably one of the bigger obstacles discouraging new readers and editors from using the site. It's also an annoyance even for experienced editors... I wouldn't even want to estimate the amount of time I've spent typing "Oblivion" or fixing my "Oblivoin" and similar typos. Last night it suddenly occurred to me, why should we have to type in namespaces all the time? Why we can't we make UESP work more like Wikipedia?

No, I'm definitely '''not''' talking about reorganizing the entire site and abandoning namespaces as a way to organize information. Instead what I'm suggesting is having the wiki software automatically fill in the namespace for readers and editors: 99% of the time the namespace you want is the one you're currently working in, so why not assume that unless specified otherwise? There are two specific ideas that I've come up with:

* '''Automatically add the current namespace to links when a page is edited.''' Wiki software already expands links on pages. If you type in <nowiki>[[Oblivion:Monsters|]]</nowiki> on a page, save, then edit the page again, that link has been magically changed to <nowiki>[[Oblivion:Monsters|Monsters]]</nowiki>. Why not do the exact same thing with namespaces? Since we don't use the main namespace at all, a namespace-less link like <nowiki>[[Monsters]]</nowiki> can safely be assumed to be a mistake. So if you type in <nowiki>[[Monsters]]</nowiki> on an Oblivion page (or an Oblivion talk page), the link would be automatically changed to <nowiki>[[Oblivion:Monsters|Monsters]]</nowiki>; if it's on a Morrowind page, the same link would be changed to <nowiki>[[Morrowind:Monsters|Monsters]]</nowiki>. Any links with a namespace would be left unchanged (<nowiki>[[Tamriel:Monsters]]</nowiki> for example), and any links starting with ":" would be left unchanged (so to link to the main page, you'd type <nowiki>[[:Main Page]]</nowiki>).

* '''When the "Go" search button is used, automatically add the current namespace''' Right now, if you type in Monsters in the the search box in the upper left corner and click "Go" you're always told that no such page exists and forced to look through a long search page. But if someone is on an Oblivion page, the chances are that what they really wanted to type is Oblivion:Monsters, so why not make that guess and automatically open up [[Oblivion:Monsters]], just like would happen on Wikipedia? The Search part of the function wouldn't be changed at all, just the list of pages that it considers to be matches when "Go" is used.

Neither of these changes would be too difficult to implement. Yes, it requires directly modifying the wiki's PHP code (which only Daveh can actually do). But the amount of coding involved isn't much. I've already worked out exactly what's needed for the first option, and even with a couple extra bells and whistles it's only six lines of code added to a single PHP function.

The only other "problem" I can foresee is that existing links to the main namespace would have to be changed at some point so they wouldn't be automatically converted next time the page is edited. But there aren't too many such links. For example, there are only 43 links on the entire site to our most popular page, namely <nowiki>[[Oblivion]]</nowiki>. 10 of those links are from the Oblivion namespace and wouldn't even need to be changed. So 33 links would have to be changed from <nowiki>[[Oblivion]]</nowiki> to <nowiki>[[:Oblivion]]</nowiki>. Typing in 33 colons and in exchange saving myself from typing Oblivion a few thousand times seems like an easy tradeoff ;) And external links to the site would be completely unaffected by the change, so there's no risk of breaking links elsewhere on the web.

Are there are any other problems that anyone can anticipate if these two changes are implemented? Or is there anyone who thinks either one is a bad idea? I definitely don't want to pursue making PHP-level changes to the wiki if anyone has concerns. But it seems to me that the changes would be easy but dramatic improvements to the site for everyone who uses it. Also, are there are any other ways in which namespaces are cumbersome that could potentially be fixed while we're at it? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 12:50, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
:Wow, you think a lot. I'd say to try it on one area (perhaps just Oblivion) for a while, and then if all's well, implement this plan site-wide. That way, we know what's what about it. I still can't really picture it. Would we still be able to type everything out, if we wanted to?--[[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:59, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

::It's actually easier to implement it everywhere at once; doing it in a more limited way would require different coding or additional coding.
::And yes, you'd still be able to type out full links if you wanted to. Basically, anything (correctly) done right now would still work. But now you'd have the option to not type the namespace part of a link if you don't want to. And if a wikipedia user added a bunch of wikipedia-style edits to a page, those would all be automatically fixed instead of being added as red links. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:16, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

:::My only objection is that you didn't think of this months ago. ;) If I counted the number of times I've had to type out "Oblivon" or "Morrowind" for every link on every page I've ever worked on - Well, let's just say it would be a very large number. Presumably, if we did this, those shortcut links in the Wiki markup box below the edit window would be rendered obsolete. I've made extensive use of them, especially after I modified them to include the | symbol and save a step, but it's still an annoying extra mouse-move and click. Only complication I can think of is if for whatever reason you actually WANTED to create a page in the Main namespace, there'd be no easy way to do it. But there's so few pages in the Main namespace, and very little need for more, so it wouldn't be that big a problem. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 15:13, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

::::Well, if it's any consolation, I've probably typed "Oblivion" about the same number of times ;) But you do have me beat on the "Morrowind" count. The shortcuts in the markup box would still be occasionally useful, such as when creating a Tamriel link on an Oblivion page. But you'd be using them a lot less often.
::::It would still be possible to create a page in the Main namespace. Some methods (such as typing in a URL) would be completely unaffected. For others, you'd just have to type one extra colon:
::::* If you create a red-link then follow it, add a colon. So type <nowiki>[[:Dragonfire Castle]]</nowiki> to create a red-link, for example. That'll work right now and will continue to work, completely unaltered by my new-fangled ideas.
::::* If you type in a name in the search box and hit Go, same idea. Type ":Dragonfire Castle" and that will force the search to try to go to a main namespace page (that won't work right now, but it would be added as part of this modification).
::::So just like right now you need to add a colon to the front of Category links or Image links, you'd just do the same thing for main namespace links. Hopefully that would be easy enough to remember for those who need to do it. But it wouldn't generally be the first option presented to new editors. Hmmm... unless they use the Go button on the Main Page... but if desired we could tweak that, too. Either force some default namespace (e.g., Oblivion) when users use Go in the main namespace. Or bypass the "You can create this page" if someone types, for example, "Dragonfire Castle" instead of ":Dragonfire Castle" again, only when starting from the main namespace. I'm not sure which makes more sense and/or is less confusing... --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 16:45, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Y'know, redirects are cheap... why can't we just create forests of redirects, and dabs where needed? [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] 22:05, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

:Well, redirects were my next idea... especially after the next wiki upgrade which will make redirects much more powerful. I think there are several things that can be done with redirects to help make it much easier to find information. But I see redirects as a tool that fundamentally work '''within''' the namespaces (i.e., a redirect from one Oblivion page to another) rather than as a tool that can somehow make namespaces less obvious.
:The whole reason for namespaces is to organize the information into different sections according to game. For redirects to do what I've suggested above would require that '''every''' single page on the entire site would have to have a corresponding redirect page within the main namespace. That would destroy the entire organizational system created by namespaces (mentally I'm picturing taking a file cabinet and dumping all the contents on the floor). Not to mention take forever: creating [[Special:Statistics|15000+]] redirects would take hundreds of hours. I'd much rather have editors spending that time creating content instead of mindlessly creating empty redirect pages.
:For alot of pages, a redirect wouldn't even be possible. For example, a main namespace "Thieves Guild": should it redirect to Oblivion:Thieves Guild or Morrowind:Thieves Guild or Tamriel:Thieves Guild or...? The namespaces are there because there are many similarly named pages in each game that need to be distinguished somehow.
:Finally, even if someone did want to create 15000 redirects, in order to maintain the system and have it continue to be useful for more than a week, it would require that a new redirect would have to be created every time a new page was created. It would be an endless process with editors constantly spending more time creating redirects than actually improving the site. So I'd much rather spend a few hours tweaking the wiki software than trying to solve the namespace difficulties with redirects. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:53, 22 March 2007 (EDT)
::Ok, good too see that you've thought this through. Go forth and code! [[User:Alphax|Alphax]] 02:13, 23 March 2007 (EDT)

User talk:FMan

2007-03-13T22:01:04Z

FMan: /* Signature */ explanation

Hello. :) This is my first time using a Wiki system. Hopefully I won't screw it up totally. ;)

About the house changes, that was my mistake, I meant to leave that link on there, sorry. - [[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]]

Thanks for your note. Mostly I tinker for legibility. I'm not trying to change anyone's writing style, regardless of skill. :)
I did rearrange the caves manually, but with ctrl-shift-down it was pretty quick. --[[User:Thistle|Thistle]] 19:05, 2 April 2006 (EDT)

==Tears of the Saviour==
The tears of the Saviour quest is explicitly mentioned *NOT* to be part of the Mages Guild quests. Hope this answers your question. [[User:Errabee|Errabee]] 23:15, 2 April 2006 (EDT)

== Exciting... screenshot... action! ==

I don't have Oblivion yet, but you'll find a line along the lines of <code>allowscreenshots = 1</code> in the INI. I forget which you're supposed to edit (there are two copies of the INI) but if you edit ''both'' you'll surely come out OK. :) [[User:Garrett|Garrett]] 22:18, 4 April 2006 (EDT)

Sorry for these saves. I know there is "preview" and use it when applicable. With the "go fishing" glitch I kept hitting a midair collision with some other guy who was doing edits to the same article, and it really sucks to allow to save his version, apply your changes, hit save again and have the "modified" message again. It took some 6-7 tries to have -my- changes to the page applied finally. Other cases - I revert vandalism then add whatever the vandal said that made sense in corrected form as a separate edit, keeping reverts and edits separate. I add my own idea to an article, then proofread the whole article and find tips I can add, errors in others' parts etc. So my (major) contribution is a separate edit from some minor additions. It's definitely not to improve -my- stats but rather to introduce finer gradation in article history to separate new content from technical edits. And last but not least, I proofread the article the last time -after- saving it and spot problems I didn't notice before (west of Niben, north of Blackwood - this is correct ambigious, could be read as western parts of Niben and northern part of Blackwood. So I change it to west FROM Niben...)--[[User:Vook|Vook]] 03:06, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

== Edit Friendly... ==

Your edits are appreciated, but it would be nice if you could be a little less hostile about it. Please try to understand that with the exception of a few dedicated editors here, most of the contributors to the site are younger and not very experienced with wikis, and sometimes are not as formal in their writing as they should be. The more experienced editors like myself often work to clean up the contributions of others, as I see you are doing as well. However, leaving comments like
:fixed over two dozen idiotic references to fkn "abilities" and god damn "stats"
and
:Learn to read and write, damn illiterates!!!
Does not do anyone any good. Make the changes, fine. Just try to resist the urge to insult everyone when you do so. We are not Wikipedia, there is no army of editors here to clean up every mess and incosistancy on the site, only a few dedicated people who do this in our spare time. Try to keep the atmosphere friendly, so that these less experienced editors won't be scared away from contributing at all. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 09:35, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

*Oh, come on! I thought people would understand I was joking. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 09:38, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

:*As a general rule, sarcasm does not read well over the internet. Something to keep in mind in the future. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 10:27, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

*Really. Don't be offended. :-) I am working on the Vvardenfell native tribes. I am puzzled as to why and who started the camp pages for each tribe? It seems they are just doubling information with the tribe page. Do we keep them as they now are for [[Tamriel:Zainab_Camp]] and [[Tamriel:Ahemmusa_Camp]], or should I just delete all the Camp pages and incorporate the geographical information in the tribe pages, because it would make sense to have everything in one page regarding a single tribe! The camp is afterall pretty much synonymous to the tribe itself. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 10:06, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

:*I left a response on the [[Tamriel talk:Zainab Camp]] page. I think the campsites themselves are game-specific enough not to need entries in the Tamriel namespace. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 10:27, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

I have noticed a few instances today where you were acting with incivility and poor wikiquette. I think you intend on being sarcastic in attempt to lighten the mood, but this is not translating to others very well. Keep in mind that text comes without facial expressions or body language, and speech elements such as humor, sarcasm, and irony do not translate well into raw text. I highly recommend that you read the Wikipedia articles [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Civility|Wikipedia:Civility]] and [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Etiquette|Wikipedia:Etiquette]] before continuing to participate on the site. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 22:52, 5 October 2006 (EDT)

==Pages proposed for deletion==

Hey! I found a couple of pages that you marked for proposed deletion, but I think you're using an old method for marking deleted pages, so I thought I'd give you the correct information for future use.

[[UESPWiki:Deletion_Review#Current_Nominations]] --[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 23:43, 4 October 2006 (EDT)

:Actually, proposed deletion is indeed the appropriate process for uncontroverisal deletions, see [[UESPWiki:Deletion_Policy]]. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:51, 5 October 2006 (EDT)

== You're Unbanned ==

After talking with Brain, he agreed to unban you from the ChatSpike network. In the future, please refrain from spamming strangers with wierd URLs – especially if they're network operators. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 19:46, 2 February 2007 (EST)
:All right. This is what happened. First, Brain incorrectly made the assumption I was spamming at random and threw me out not stopping for a moment to look in the mirror and then to realize my action was in response to '''him''' constantly sending out '''his''' private messages as god damn globals to '''everyone''' on that server!

:And he should get himself a brain - he is the exact opposite of his nick because he does't have a clue. I can see him feeling really 1337, because of his pathetic position of power on a meaningless borderline chatserver, but in reality a person can't be more lame than he is.

:'''He''' is the one who needs to stop his spamming, because it's him that it's all about but he just din't get it. As it is, I am thoroughly fed up with that shitty server and I seriously suggest you setup the #Wikiscrolls channel on the regular IRCnet that is an open network and not ruled by a moronic hitler. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 20:31, 2 February 2007 (EST)

:: Ahh, well, that makes sense. I've had a few encounters with some of the staff at ChatSpike, and many of them are far from professional. I'm getting tired of ChatSpike, too, but I can't seem to persuade everyone that we need to move to freenode. Have any ideas? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 22:20, 3 February 2007 (EST)

:::Well, my preferred choice is still the reguler IRCnet where most ppl are. That's like the "normal" IRC. There are other networks too, such as EFnet, but at minimum, I'd stay clear of the one-server IRCs. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 18:18, 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Request for Action ==

I noticed the question you left on Wrye's talk page. And I'm guessing that you feel that something more forceful than just posting a criticism on the article's talk page or on the Community Portal is needed? Another option would be to post a <nowiki>{{cleanup}}</nowiki> tag on the page in question, with some details on what you think needs to be done. Or in some cases a <nowiki>{{merge}}</nowiki> tag, or one of the other maintenance tags (see [[:Category:Needs_Maintenance]] for all the maintenance categories). Admittedly, these don't guarantee any type of immediate action, whereas people will respond to a deletion review tag because they know there's a limited timeline. But given that everyone working here is doing it purely voluntarily, there isn't really any way to insist that a certain task be done. If you really want something done, the only way to be sure it happens is to do it yourself ;) If you have any other ideas about how to make a problem page more visible, I'd welcome the input --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:37, 5 March 2007 (EST)

==Signature==

How did you set up your signature with the talk and contribs links? --[[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] 17:53, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

:This is what I have as my signature defition: <nowiki>[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]])</nowiki>

:Remember to click the option "Raw signatures" to allow correct processing. Thanks for asking. :-) --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 18:01, 13 March 2007 (EDT)

Morrowind:House Hlaalu

2007-03-11T18:30:59Z

FMan: /* Joining House Hlaalu */ bettering

{{Morrowind Factions Trail}}
{| class="wikitable" align="right" width="145px"
! style= "background:#f0b74b;" | House Hlaalu
|-
| '''Councilors:''' 
[[Morrowind:Vivec Hlaalu|Hlaalu Canton]]:
* Crassius Curio
[[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|St. Olms Canton]]:
* Dram Bero
* Yngling Half-Troll
[[Morrowind:Ules Manor|Ules Manor]]:
* Nevena Ules
[[Morrowind:Omani Manor|Omani Manor]]:
* Velanda Omani
|-
| '''Favored Skills:'''
* [[Morrowind:Light_Armor|Light Armor]]
* [[Morrowind:Marksman|Marksman]]
* [[Morrowind:Mercantile|Mercantile]]
* [[Morrowind:Security|Security]]
* [[Morrowind:Short_Blade|Short Blade]]
* [[Morrowind:Speechcraft|Speechcraft]]
|-
| '''Favored Attributes:'''
* Speed
* Agility
|-
| '''Friends & Foes:'''
* [[Morrowind:Camonna Tong|Camonna Tong]]: +1
* [[Morrowind:Fighters Guild|Fighters Guild]]: +1
* [[Morrowind:Imperial Cult|Imperial Cult]]: +1
* [[Morrowind:Imperial Legion|Imperial Legion]]: +1
* [[Morrowind:Mages Guild|Mages Guild]]: +1
* [[Morrowind:Tribunal Temple|Tribunal Temple]]: +1
* [[Morrowind:House Redoran|House Redoran]]: -1
* [[Morrowind:House Telvanni|House Telvanni]]: -1
* [[Morrowind:Thieves Guild|Thieves Guild]]: -1
* [[Morrowind:Ashlanders|Ashlanders]]: -2
* [[Morrowind:Vampires#Vampire Clans|Vampire Clans]]: -2
* [[Morrowind:House Dagoth|House Dagoth]]: -3
|}
{{Tamriel:House Hlaalu}}

==Joining House Hlaalu==
Joining House Hlaalu is relatively simple: you need to talk with [[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]], who can be found on the ground floor of the Hlaalu Council Manor in [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]]. The Hlaalu Council Manor is located on the west side of the [[Morrowind:Odai River|Odai River]], on the north-west end of town. It's the large manor directly facing you when you climb the stairs between the two Western guard towers in Balmora.

Normally, you can only join one Great House in the game, but there is a glitch in which you can appear to be a member of both House Hlaalu and [[Morrowind:House Redoran|House Redoran]] or [[Morrowind:House Telvanni|House Telvanni]], provided that you have joined one the other house first. For details on how to do this see:
*[[Morrowind:Redoran and Hlaalu|Redoran and Hlaalu]] - How to become a member of House Hlaalu and House Redoran at the same time.
*[[Morrowind:Telvanni and Hlaalu|Telvanni and Hlaalu]] - How to become a member of House Telvanni and House Hlaalu at the same time.

==House Hlaalu Ranks==
{| class="wikitable" width="600px"
|-
! Rank
! Required Attributes
! Required Skills
|-
|1. Hireling
|Speed 30 Agility 30
|align="center" | —
|-
|2. Retainer
|Speed 30 Agility 30
|One skill at 10
|-
|3. Oathman
|Speed 30 Agility 30
|One skill at 20
|-
|4. Lawman
|Speed 30 Agility 30
|One skill at 30 and two at 5
|-
|5. Kinsman
|Speed 30 Agility 30
|One skill at 40 and two at 10
|-
|6. House Cousin
|Speed 31 Agility 31
|One skill at 50 and two at 15
|-
|7. House Brother
|Speed 32 Agility 32
|One skill at 60 and two at 20
|-
|8. House Father
|Speed 33 Agility 33
|One skill at 70 and two at 25 (must have stronghold)
|-
|9. Councilman
|Speed 34 Agility 34
|One skill at 80 and two at 30
|-
|10. Grandmaster
|Speed 35 Agility 35
|One skill at 90 and two at 35
|}

==House Hlaalu Members==
{| class="greylapse" border=1 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 style="text-align:left"
|- bgcolor="#efefef"
! Character Name !! Gender !! Race !! Class !! Ranking !! Location !! Comments
|-
| Direr Arano
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Retainer
| Arano Plantation
|
|-
| Talare Arvel
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Lawman
| Arvel Manor
|
|-
| Dredase Arvel
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Oathman
| Arvel Manor
|
|-
| Urene Arvel
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Oathman
| Arvel Manor
|
|-
| Rovone Arvel
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Oathman
| Arvel Plantation
|
|-
| Breyns Randas
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Retainer
| Arvel Plantation
|
|-
| Sedrane Arvel
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Retainer
| Arvel Plantation
|
|-
| Relyn Sarano
| M
| Dunmer
| Drillmaster
| Hireling
| Arvel Plantation
|
|-
| Daynasa Telandas
| F
| Dunmer
| Farmer
| Hireling
| Ascadian Isles Region
|
|-
| Llerusa Hlaalu
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Hireling
| Ascadian Isles Region
|
|-
| Drolora Salen
| F
| Dunmer
| Drillmaster
| Hireling
| Ascadian Isles Region
|
|-
| Serer Andrano
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Hireling
| Ascadian Isles Region
|
|-
| Meril Hlaano
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Retainer
| Balmora, Eight Plates
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Traven Marvos|Traven Marvos]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Rogue
| Retainer
| Balmora, Eight Plates
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Axe
|-
| [[Morrowind:Ralen Hlaalo|Ralen Hlaalo]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Merchant
| Hireling
| Balmora, Hlaalo Manor
| Merchant (dead)
|-
| Dondos Driler
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Kinsman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Kinsman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Thief Service, Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Security
|-
| [[Morrowind:Aurnie Vanne|Aurnie Vanne]]
| F
| Breton
| Monk
| Lawman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Monk Service, Trainer: Sneak, Acrobatics, Hand-to-hand
|-
| [[Morrowind:Bolnor Andrani|Bolnor Andrani]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Assassin
| Lawman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Assassin Service, Short Blade, Light Armor, Trainer: Marksman
|-
| [[Morrowind:Danar Dalomo|Danar Dalomo]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Scout
| Lawman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Trainer: Long Blade, Athletics, Block
|-
| [[Morrowind:Imare|Imare]]
| F
| Altmer
| Nightblade
| Lawman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Nightblade Service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Mervs Uvayn|Mervs Uvayn]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Agent
| Lawman
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Sneak
|-
| [[Morrowind:Falvel Arenim|Falvel Arenim]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Savant
| Retainer
| Balmora, Hlaalu Council Manor
| Savant Service, Trainer: Mercantile, Speechcraft, Athletics
|-
| [[Morrowind:Ondres Nerano|Ondres Nerano]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Merchant
| Hireling
| Balmora, Nerano Manor
| Merchant
|-
| Briras Tyravel
| M
| Dunmer
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Balmora, Tyravel Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Odral Helvi|Odral Helvi]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Monk
| House Brother
| Caldera, Governor's Hall
| Monk Service, Trainer: Sneak, Acrobatics, Hand-to-hand
|-
| [[Morrowind:Cunius Pelelius|Cunius Pelelius]]
| M
| Imperial
| Agent
| Lawman
| Caldera, Governor's Hall
| Trainer: Speechcraft, Light Armor, Sneak
|-
| [[Morrowind:Foves Arenim|Foves Arenim]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Assassin
| Oathman
| Caldera, Governor's Hall
| Assassin Service, Short Blade, Light Armor, Trainer: Marksman
|-
| [[Morrowind:Llaros Uvayn|Llaros Uvayn]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| Oathman
| Caldera, Governor's Hall
| Nightblade Service
|-
| Vaval Orethi
| M
| Dunmer
| Archer
| House Brother
| Dren Plantation
|
|-
| Frinnius Posuceius
| M
| Imperial
| Herder
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation
|
|-
| Manos Othreleth
| M
| Dunmer
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation
|
|-
| Mavus Ules
| M
| Dunmer
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation
|
|-
| Aebondeius Jucanis
| M
| Imperial
| Warrior
| Oathman
| Dren Plantation
|
|-
| Hrargal the Crow
| M
| Nord
| Warrior
| Oathman
| Dren Plantation
|
|-
| Galos Farethi
| M
| Dunmer
| Warrior
| House Cousin
| Dren Plantation, Dren's Villa
|
|-
| Gathal Llethri
| M
| Dunmer
| Knight
| House Father
| Dren Plantation, Guardhouse
|
|-
| Virene Mene
| F
| Breton
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation, Guardhouse
|
|-
| Hlevala Madalvel
| F
| Dunmer
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation, Hlevala's Shack
|
|-
| Bolayn Rethan
| M
| Dunmer
| Battlemage
| House Brother
| Dren Plantation, Rethan's Shack
|
|-
| Mash gro-Burol
| M
| Orc
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation, Shipping House
|
|-
| Ushamph gro-Shamub
| M
| Orc
| Warrior
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation, Shipping House
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Avus Belvilo|Avus Belvilo]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Agent
| Kinsman
| Dren Plantation, Storage Shack
| Trainer: Armorer, Conjuration, Acrobatics
|-
| Llaro Llethri
| M
| Dunmer
| Knight
| House Father
| Dren Plantation, Tower Shack
|
|-
| '''[[Morrowind:Vedam Dren|Duke Vedam Dren]]'''
| '''M'''
| '''Dunmer'''
| '''Knight'''
| '''Grandmaster'''
| '''Ebonheart, Grand Council Chambers'''
|
|-
| Relen Hlaalu
| M
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| House Brother
| Ebonheart, Grand Council Chambers
|
|-
| Andilo Thelas
| F
| Dunmer
| Savant
| Retainer
| Gnaar Mok
|
|-
| Drarus Berano
| M
| Dunmer
| Assassin
| Lawman
| Gnaar Mok, Arenim Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Dridas Salvani|Dridas Salvani]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Scout
| Lawman
| Gnaar Mok, Arenim Manor
| Trainer: Long Blade, Athletics, Block
|-
| [[Morrowind:Almse Arenim|Almse Arenim]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Agent
| Oathman
| Gnaar Mok, Arenim Manor
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Sneak
|-
| Athal Nerano
| M
| Dunmer
| Rogue
| Oathman
| Gnisis, Madach Tradehouse
|
|-
| Talms Dralor
| M
| Dunmer
| Pilgrim
| Oathman
| Gnisis, Madach Tradehouse
|
|-
| Farare Othril
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Hireling
| Odirniran
|
|-
| Haleneri Salor
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Hireling
| Odirniran
|
|-
| Remasa Othril
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Hireling
| Odirniran
|
|-
| Talmsa Falas
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Hireling
| Odirniran
|
|-
| Valyne Vedaren
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Hireling
| Odirniran
|
|-
| Vedelea Othril
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Hireling
| Odirniran, Tower
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Velanda Omani|Velanda Omani]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Councilman
| Omani Manor
|
|-
| Melvona Marvayn
| F
| Dunmer
| Enforcer
| House Cousin
| Omani Manor
|
|-
| Ranor Dralas
| M
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| House Cousin
| Omani Manor
|
|-
| Tredyn Venim
| M
| Dunmer
| Bard
| House Cousin
| Omani Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Hlodala Savel|Hlodala Savel]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Savant
| House Cousin
| Rethan Manor
| Savant Service, Trainer: Mercantile, Speechcraft, Short Blade
|-
| [[Morrowind:Lliryn Fendyn|Lliryn Fendyn]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Oathman
| Rethan Manor
| Thief Service, Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Security
|-
| Unila Berendas
| F
| Dunmer
| Agent
| Lawman
| Rethan Manor, Berendas' House
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Sernsi Drelas|Sernsi Drelas]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Pawnbroker
| Retainer
| Rethan Manor, Drelas' House
| Pawnbroker
|-
| [[Morrowind:Avron Gols|Avron Gols]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Scout
| Retainer
| Rethan Manor, Gols' House
| Trainer: Long Blade, Athletics, Block
|-
| [[Morrowind:Uvren Tures|Uvren Tures]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Monk
| Lawman
| Rethan Manor, Tures' House
| Monk Service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Serjo Avon Oran|Serjo Avon Oran]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Thief
| Kinsman
| Suran, Oran Manor
| Thief Service, Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Security
|-
| [[Morrowind:Ravoso Aryon|Ravoso Aryon]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Pawnbroker
| Retainer
| Suran, Oran Manor
| Pawnbroker
|-
| [[Morrowind:Nevena Ules|Nevena Ules]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Councilman
| Ules Manor
|
|-
| Fruscia Abitius
| F
| Imperial
| Noble
| Oathman
| Ules Manor
|
|-
| Tarvyn Faren
| M
| Dunmer
| Trader
| Oathman
| Vivec
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Andilu Drothan|Andilu Drothan]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Alchemist
| Hireling
| Vivec, Andilu Drothan: Alchemist
| Alchemist Service
|-
| Urven Davor
| M
| Dunmer
| Enforcer
| Retainer
| Vivec, Black Shalk Cornerclub
|
|-
| Ethys Savil
| M
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| Hireling
| Vivec, Black Shalk Cornerclub
|
|-
| Favel Gobor
| M
| Dunmer
| Rogue
| Hireling
| Vivec, Black Shalk Cornerclub
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Crassius Curio|Crassius Curio]]
| M
| Imperial
| Noble
| Councilman
| Vivec, Curio Manor
|
|-
| Balen Sedrethi
| M
| Dunmer
| Enforcer
| House Cousin
| Vivec, Curio Manor
|
|-
| Bronosa Nedalor
| F
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| House Cousin
| Vivec, Curio Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Forvse Nerethi|Forvse Nerethi]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Agent
| House Cousin
| Vivec, Curio Manor
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Sneak
|-
| Hlenil Neladren
| M
| Dunmer
| Spellsword
| House Cousin
| Vivec, Curio Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Sovali Uvayn|Sovali Uvayn]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Thief Service
| Oathman
| Vivec, Elven Nations Cornerclub
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Security
|-
| [[Morrowind:Arvama Rathri|Arvama Rathri]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Scout
| Retainer
| Vivec, Elven Nations Cornerclub
| Trainer: Long Blade, Athletics, Block
|-
| Brethas Deras
| M
| Dunmer
| Spellsword
| Retainer
| Vivec, Elven Nations Cornerclub
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Nalasa Sarothren|Nalasa Sarothren]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Scout
| Retainer
| Vivec, Elven Nations Cornerclub
| Trainer: Long Blade, Athletics, Block
|-
| [[Morrowind:Vedran Balen|Vedran Balen]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Assassin
| Retainer
| Vivec, Hlaalu
| Assassin Service, Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Marksman
|-
| [[Morrowind:Ganalyn Saram|Ganalyn Saram]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Alchemist
| Retainer
| Vivec, Hlaalu Alchemist
| Alchemist Service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Edryno Arethi|Edryno Arethi]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Scout
| House Cousin
| Vivec, Hlaalu Edryno Arethi's House
| Trainer: Long Blade, Athletics, Block
|-
| [[Morrowind:Bratheru Oran|Bratheru Oran]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| Retainer
| Vivec, Hlaalu Edryno Arethi's House
| Nightblade Service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Gadayn Andarys|Gadayn Andarys]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Trader
| Retainer
| Vivec, Hlaalu General Goods
| Trader Service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Alveno Andules|Alveno Andules]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Pawnbroker
| Oathman
| Vivec, Hlaalu Pawnbroker
| Pawnbroker
|-
| Guarg gro-Yarzol
| M
| Orc
| Commoner
| Hireling
| Vivec, Hlaalu Temple
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Galasa Uvayn|Galasa Uvayn]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Agent
| House Cousin
| Vivec, Hlaalu Treasury
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Sneak
|-
| [[Morrowind:Garer Danoran|Garer Danoran]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Agent
| Oathman
| Vivec, Hlaalu Treasury
| Trainer: Short Blade, Light Armor, Sneak
|-
| Baren Alen
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Oathman
| Vivec, Hlaalu Vaults
|
|-
| Tenisi Lladri
| F
| Dunmer
| Commoner
| Hireling
| Vivec, Hlaalu Vaults
|
|-
| Eloroth
| M
| Bosmer
| Monk
| Lawman
| Vivec, Hlaalu Waistworks
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Elo Arethan|Elo Arethan]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Savant
| Retainer
| Vivec, Hlaalu Waistworks
| Savant Service, Trainer: Mercantile, Speechcraft, Athletics
|-
| [[Morrowind:Telvon Llethan|Telvon Llethan]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Smith
| Oathman
| Vivec, Hlaalu Weaponsmith
| Smith service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Ralen Tilvur|Ralen Tilvur]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Smith
| Hireling
| Vivec, Ralen Tilvur: Smith
| Smith service
|-
| [[Morrowind:Ilmeni Dren|Ilmeni Dren]]
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| House Cousin
| Vivec, St. Delyn Canal South-One
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Dram Bero|Dram Bero]]
| M
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Councilman
| Vivec, St. Olms Haunted Manor
|
|-
| Arvela Falas
| F
| Dunmer
| Nightblade
| House Cousin
| Vivec, St. Olms Haunted Manor
|
|-
| Omesu Hlarys
| F
| Dunmer
| Enforcer
| House Cousin
| Vivec, St. Olms Haunted Manor
|
|-
| Falso Sadrys
| M
| Dunmer
| Commoner
| Hireling
| Vivec, St. Olms Plaza
|
|-
| Ginadura Andrethi
| F
| Dunmer
| Noble
| Hireling
| Vivec, St. Olms Plaza
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Yngling Half-Troll|Yngling Half-Troll]]
| M
| Nord
| Noble
| Councilman
| Vivec, St. Olms Yngling Manor
|
|-
| [[Morrowind:Faulgor|Faulgor]]
| M
| Bosmer
| Agent
| House Cousin
| Vivec, St. Olms Yngling Manor
| Trainer: Sneak, Light Armor, Acrobatics
|-
| Shagar gra-Snagarz
| F
| Orc
| Bard
| House Cousin
| Vivec, St. Olms Yngling Manor
|
|-
| Star
| M
| Nord
| Spellsword
| House Cousin
| Vivec, St. Olms Yngling Manor
|
|-
| Dals Sadri
| M
| Dunmer
| Mage
| Retainer
| Vivec, Telvanni Tower
|
|-
| Tolmera Relenim
| F
| Dunmer
| Enchanter
| Retainer
| Vivec, Telvanni Tower
|
|-
|}

{{Morrowind:Hlaalu Quests}}

User talk:TheRealLurlock

2007-03-11T12:05:53Z

FMan: /* Lusty Argonian Maid */

{|style=float:right class=toc
!Archives
|-
|style=text-align:right|
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 06|June 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 07|July 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 08|August 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 09|September 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 10|October 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 11|November 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2006 12|December 2006]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2007 01|January 2007]] 
[[User talk:TheRealLurlock/2007 02|February 2007]] 
|-
![[User talk:TheRealLurlock/Cookie Jar|Cookie Jar]] 
|}

== MW Quest Entry ==

I'm not sure why a new [[Template:MW Quest Entry]] template is needed, when the existing [[Template:Quest Link]] already does almost the exact same thing. I just tweaked Quest Link to even make the quest= part optional (it's a change I did a while back to [[Template:Quest Link Short]] and for some reason forgot to do on the more common Quest Link template, too). So check [[Oblivion:Miscellaneous Quests]] to see the simplified version of that template in action. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 11:30, 2 March 2007 (EST)
:The Quest Link template is designed for Oblivion, and you have to specify extra info to use it for other games. I wanted one that could be used for Morrowind that didn't require me having to type in "game=Morrowind" every single time. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 11:34, 2 March 2007 (EST)
:Hmm... I guess I misunderstood the description there. It looked like the "game" thing would default to Oblivion if not specified. It works, I guess. It might be better to include the bullet at the beginning like mine did? (I don't think this template is ever used in-line, so it would save a step, but then every page that uses it would have to be updated, so maybe that's too much trouble.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 11:43, 2 March 2007 (EST)
::If you want to add the bullet ''and'' go through and fix all the existing uses of that template, go for it! --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 12:03, 2 March 2007 (EST)
:::Nah, adding the bullets to the MW pages was much easier, and there's also the possibility somebody might want something other than a bullet - say numbers or something. I'll leave it as is for now. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 12:37, 2 March 2007 (EST)

== Thanks ==

Thanks for the welcome. By the way, on [[Oblivion:Easter Eggs]] the Nirnroot is called a "Ninroot." I'd fix it myself, but it's locked. [[User:Nufy8|Nufy8]] 14:26, 5 March 2007 (EST)
:Fixed. Just a note for future reference, the proper place to post comments like this is on the relevant talk-page. The active admins here all pay attention to the Recent Changes, so odds are we'll see it. (Unlike Wikipedia, where there's so many posts per second that stuff like that slips by more easily - though they make up for it with sheer numbers.) You can still contact admins for more widespread or serious stuff, of course. Or just if you want to. We're all pretty friendly here. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 14:35, 5 March 2007 (EST)

== Edittools ==

I had been wondering for a while, whether the "Wiki markup" helpers could be changed - until you did it. And you even addressed the exact thing that made me want to change them in the first place. Thank you! -- [[User:JustTheBast|JustTheBast]] 03:33, 8 March 2007 (EST)
:They can, but only by admins. That one had been annoying me for months, so I figured I'd give my new-found powers a little test-drive. (There's a lot of stuff I can do now that I don't dare mess with, but I figured that was pretty harmless.) Glad to know I wasn't the only one who wanted that changed. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 09:20, 8 March 2007 (EST)

== Oblivion Races ==

Actually, would you mind if I deleted all the singular race categories you just created for Oblivion? I was just about to implement a tweak to the NPC summary template to make it do plural categories for now, and be switchable later... but the tweak relies upon the singular categories not existing yet (the easiest way I could think of to do it is to check whether the page exists already... so the new pages have to actually be deleted until we do the switch). I agree that once most of the NPCs are changed over to use the new summary, for consistency making everything singular will be best. But with 500+ NPC pages to do, it's going to take a while, and if it's possible in the interim to still using the existing categories it seems that will make it easier for everyone. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 16:09, 10 March 2007 (EST)

:Oh, I suppose. But it was the lack of these categories that was causing people not to use the new streamlined version of the template, still using the old "racecat" format. Since that would require changing all of the pages AGAIN after the new categories were created, I decided to make the new categories now to prevent confusion caused by red links. If you have another solution that works as well, feel free to do it. I was just trying to minimize the amount of work that will have to be redone in the future. Just make it clear within the template description and on the page where we talk about it that the "racecat" is ONLY to be used in special cases, like Dremora, Dwemer, Akaviri, and whatever else there may be. That way we won't have to re-fix all the templates done the old way after the fact. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 16:43, 10 March 2007 (EST)

::I just tested it in reverse using [[Oblivion:Ashanta]]. It had been showing the category as Oblivion-Redguard; I deleted that category and now the page is showing Oblivion-Redguard'''s''' (without the page itself being edited in the interim). In other words, if I delete the other new singular category pages, the existing pages with no |racecat= entry will automatically use the plural category pages for backwards compatibility. Once we've changed over most of the NPC pages, all we have to do is create the new singular versions of the category pages and every page will automatically move to that page instead. I definitely don't want the pages to have to be edited again in future to implement the change, but since I'd already figured out a way to do the change automatically I figured we might as well try it. So I'm going to go ahead and delete the others (for now). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 17:25, 10 March 2007 (EST)

== Thanks ==

Yes, it appears we are. Anyway, thank you for the welcome. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:35, 10 March 2007 (EST)
:Thanks, TheRealLurlock. I think I had read the name written somewhere incorrectly, and that stuck. [[User:Michael|Michael]] 23:43, 10 March 2007 (EST)

== Lusty Argonian Maid ==

Hey, sorry to bother you with this. Just a quick question since you know Morrowind. I had the disctinct impression in my mind Crassius Curio's spear-shining play had a quest involved with it - finding actors for it or sth, but I am unable to find it. Do I misremember? Please help. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 07:47, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

The quest you thinking of is with the actor in the foreign quarter lower waistworks--[[User:Zoidberg|Zoidberg]] 08:04, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Right. I remember that now... Thanks! --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 08:05, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

UESPWiki:Community Portal

2007-03-11T12:04:17Z

FMan: DrPhoton's misuse of his privileges

[[Category:Message Boards|{{PAGENAME}}]] [[Category:Move Protection|{{PAGENAME}}]] __NEWSECTIONLINK__
This is the '''main discussion forum''' used to discuss the operations, policies, design, and improvement of UESP.

All members of the community are welcome to contribute to this page. Please sign and date your post by typing <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki> or clicking the signature icon in the edit toolbar. If you would like to start a new inquiry, please place it at the bottom of the page with a two-tier (==) heading.

Other pages for community-wide or general questions include:
* Existing [[:Category:Policies and Guidelines|policies and guidelines]] have individual pages; their talk pages are the best place to discuss these policies.
* If you have a request that requires an [[UESPWiki:Administrators|administrator]], you may want to post your comments on the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard|administrator noticeboard]].
* [[UESPWiki:Reference Desk|The reference desk]] is the best place for questions about how to play Elder Scrolls games.

== Contents ==
{| style="float:right;" width=600
|- valign=top
|width=50%|
{| class="greylapse" width=300
! Major Discussions
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Bread Crumb Trail|Bread Crumb Trail]] -- ''Active''
* Utility and formatting of bread crumb trails.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Curing Stupidity |Curing Stupidity ]] -- ''Active''
* Dealing with very low quality edits.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/De-Adminship Request |De-Adminship Request ]] -- ''Complete''
* Request for [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] to return to editor status; resolved.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Mod Info in Articles |Mod Info in Articles ]] -- ''Active''
* When and where unofficial mods should be included in articles.
* How to organize PC-specific, Xbox-specific, etc. information.
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Principles Controversy|Principles Controversy]] -- ''Inactive''
* Controversy over basic UESP Wiki principles and practices, including (links are for new policy pages based on this discussion):
** [[UESPWiki:Archiving Guideline|Archiving]] (what and when),
** Civility (nature and enforcement on talk pages),
** [[UESPWiki:Consensus|Consensus]],
** Irc Usage (limits as a decision making forum).
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Wikiscrolls Project|Wikiscrolls Project]] ([http://wikiscrolls.org/ Wikiscrolls]) -- ''Inactive''
* A new wiki similar to the UESP.
|}
|
|width=50%|
{| class="greylapse" width=300
! Page Archives
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 1|Archive 1]]: Feb. 2005 – June 2006. ''Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]].''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 2|Archive 2]]: June 2006 - July 2006. ''Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]].''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 3|Archive 3]]: Aug. 2006 - Sep. 2006. '' Archived by [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]]''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 4|Archive 4]]: October 2006 '' Archived by [[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]]''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 5|Archive 5]]: Nov. 2006 - Dec. 2006. '' Archived by [[User:Nephele|Nephele]] and [[User:Wrye|Wrye]] ''
|-
| [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 6|Archive 6]]: Jan-Feb 2007 '' Archived by [[User:Nephele|Nephele]], [[User:Wrye|Wrye]]
|}
|}
__TOC__
 

== Subpaging ==
''Use this topic for notes and discussion regarding subpaging. For previous discussion, see: [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_5#Subpaging|Archive 5]].''

----
''Following was moved from separate "Community Portal into small pieces", since it essentially re-proposed "Community Portal Subpaging".'' --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 18:09, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Now I'd like to suggest breaking this page up. It is over 80 kilobytes in size, so it would be in order. Several subpages that are parallel to each other would work. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]] 11:09, 18 January 2007 (EST)
:Would make sense, it's currently huge and only the bottom topics seem active [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 11:18, 18 January 2007 (EST)
::I didn't check since this suggestion came to me when I was already editing a section of the page and didn't see it as a whole at the time. That appears to be true except for one topic in the middle, so in fact archiving would be the preferred action to cut the current size - someone just needs to do it. :) --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 12:02, 18 January 2007 (EST)
: So this page would be more like a forum and the pages would be more like threads. Sounds neat! --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 13:23, 18 January 2007 (EST)

::This page was somewhat overdue for archiving, so I've gone ahead and [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Archive 5|archived]] the older, resolved topics. But there have been a number of important issues brought up on the Community Portal over the last couple months, which I felt it would possibly be premature to archive. So the resulting page is still somewhat lengthy. A couple of these topics are possible candidates for [[#Community Portal Subpaging|subpaging]], in that they are issues that have come up a few times, in particular:
:::[[#No Spoiler Warnings|No Spoiler Warnings]]
:::[[#Mod Info in Articles|Mod Info in Articles]]
::Or if the community feels that those topics are sufficiently resolved, another option would be to try to create a guideline page summarizing the discussion (at which point it could be archived). I'm leaning towards the latter: I think these are topics that warrant guidelines. Unless someone else would like to tackle writing up a guideline, I'm willing to take it on... but it will be a few weeks before I have the chance. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 16:06, 18 January 2007 (EST)

:::Good deal. I'd suggest subpaging the Mod Info in Articles. I don't think that we reached a resolution, and it will probably need a guideline at some point. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 20:25, 18 January 2007 (EST)

----
Re Aristeo's recent '''changes to status of subpage topics'''. I don't think that ''Complete'' is a good designation for most of those. ''Inactive'' is probably better. Part of the notion of the subpages is that they're likely to be open for a long time, though going through varying periods of activity and inactivity. E.g. it's possible that anonymous editing will come up again (relatively new users sometimes have pro/con things to say about it). Likewise, "Copyright" and "Curing Stupidity" are perennial topics -- I would rate these as "Inactive". Principles Controversy is certainly not complete since Nephele is still working on guidelines, AFAIK (so it should be "Active"). --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 18:20, 27 January 2007 (EST)

Other page maintenance noes. I've added a '''Contents'' header to make it easier to edit the subpage listing without having to edit the whole page. I've forced a break == both at the bottom to keep the text from getting to crunched.

Also I've cleared out a couple of headers that have been subpaged. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 18:35, 27 January 2007 (EST)

: I changed "resolved" to "complete", because not everything here is a dispute. Complete seemed to be a better term.

: Also, what is the criteria that you use for rating the activity of pages? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 21:22, 27 January 2007 (EST)

::I agree that "Complete" makes better sense when there's no dispute or question to be resolved -- however, most topics here involve one or the other of those. E.g., there was certainly a dispute over whether [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Anonymous_Editing|Anonymous Editing]] should be allowed and about [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Copyright_Issues|Copyright Issues]]. Dispute doesn't necessarily mean a knock down, drag out fight -- it just means that there was a disagreement.

::As for when I would say "Inactive", my rough rule of thumb would be no discussion for three weeks -- unless someone objected, in which case I would keep it "Active" for longer.

::BTW, I've archived some of the older subpaging discussion and retitled and moved this section to the top since it's "Meta" -- i.e., about the page itself. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 15:51, 3 February 2007 (EST)

== Mod Info in Articles==
''This discussion has been moved to a subpage, at [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Mod Info in Articles]]. All community members are welcome to continue conributing to the discussion on the subpage.''

== German-language version ==

I'd like to propose to set up a German-language version of this site.
There are, as far as I could see, no good Oblivion and Morrowind sides in German and this is, in my opinion, the best side on the Elder Scrolls. So I'd like to translate articles on Oblivion in German for those whose English is not good enough to understand them.
Please tell me what you think about it. [[User:Trillian|Trillian]] 01:28, 27 January 2007 (CET)

:Personally, I'd have no problem with it. Still, there might be a problem with the copyright laws that would prevent it, and I'm not Dave either. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 19:38, 26 January 2007 (EST)

: You'd need Daveh's permission to start a German wiki under the name UESP, and you would need to ensure that you license everything under the BY-SA license. (http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 19:48, 26 January 2007 (EST)

What does everyone think about creating a German-language section within UESP, instead of relying upon a separate site? For example, we could create a namespace dedicated to german articles on Oblivion, maybe named "OblivionDe". The German-language introduction page would then be at OblivionDe:Oblivion, and a page like [[Oblivion:Ingredients_German]] would be moved to OblivionDe:Ingredients (or translate the title, too, so perhaps OblivionDe:Zutaten). There wouldn't be any copyright issues if the content is still located at UESP. I think supporting German (or other language) content is completely consistent with UESP's goal of providing a comprehensive website describing the Elder Scrolls games... as long as there editors who are interested in doing some of the work translating pages. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 03:31, 27 January 2007 (EST)

:If there are people wanting to create the pages and update them I can't see any real reason not to let them tbh. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 06:58, 27 January 2007 (EST)

: Well, if Jadrax could round up some friends that are interested in developing a German-language wiki, then I don't see why not. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 07:19, 27 January 2007 (EST)

What Nephele said was more what I had in mind. Sorry I did make myself clearer last night. The thing is that I know quite a few people whose English is good enough to find their way around on an English side but not to read longer or complicated articles. And this side is so great when it comes to giving detailed information about the game, especially the Gameplay Information
and the In-Depth Guides. They help a lot more when you are new to one of the games then a walkthrough for a quest (at least it that way was for me). So I figured that translating the articles and putting them in here would help a lot of people. But only if it is ok with the editors here. But the point with asking Daveh is true and I will ask him. I just wanted to make sure that I won't offend other people here and that there are people who willing to help since, even though I am willing to do a lot, it might be a bit to much to do it alone. :-) [[User:Trillian|Trillian]] 13:22, 27 January 2007 (CET)

:Sounds like a good idea. :) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 07:42, 27 January 2007 (EST)

: While I haven't given much thought to translations I'm perfectly fine with people translating site articles either on or off the site (I get requests from time to time). If we're going to do much translation on the site, however, I'd prefer a solution like how Wikipedia handles articles in multiple languages. I don't know much about at the moment but will look into it, and if others know more about it feel free to let me know. I'd rather use a good system from the start even it takes some effort rather than having issues further down the line. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 12:38, 29 January 2007 (EST)

== Blocking Policy ==

I've written up a new page to provide a proposed [[UESPWiki:Blocking Policy|Blocking Policy]]. The intent is to provide some consistency about when and how accounts are blocked, and also to have some guidelines in place ahead of time in case any incidents arise related to blocked accounts. I'd welcome any feedback on the policy at [[UESPWiki Talk:Blocking Policy|its talk page]]. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:44, 10 February 2007 (EST)

== Protected Pages ==

A discussion has been started on the [[UESPWiki:Administrator Noticeboard#Protected Pages|Administrator Noticeboard]] about the site's current [[UESPWiki:Protection Policy|policy on protecting pages]]. In particular, there has been discussion about whether editors feel that they need to be able to directly edit the [[Main Page]], and whether that ability justifies increasing the risk of vandalism to the main page. Any editors who have opinions about these issues are welcome to contribute to the discussion on the Administrator Noticeboard. (All editors are always free to contribute to any discussions on that page; I just wanted to make sure that the community was aware of this particular discussion). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:29, 11 February 2007 (EST)

== Changes to Introductory Pages ==

Looking back on some changes that I made yesterday to [[UESPWiki:Helping Out]] and [[UESPWiki:Getting Started]] (and earlier to [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines]]) I realized that I introduced a shift in some policy, and wanted to point the changes out to the community and make sure that I didn't make any unacceptable changes. The issue is whether new editors should be encouraged to read all the policies and guidelines ''before'' getting started, or whether they should be encouraged to just start editing first and come back and learn about the policies and guidelines ''later''.

A pre-existing statement on [[UESPWiki:Helping Out|Helping Out]] described the policies and guidelines as:
:''Important rules and guidelines that you should try to become familiar with before editing''
That statement is still there (under [[UESPWiki:Helping Out#See Also|See Also]]). But I added a paragraph to [[UESPWiki:Getting Started#Editing Pages|Getting Started]] that basically says start editing without worrying about making mistakes; learn the rules later. And I earlier changed the introduction to [[UESPWiki:Policies and Guidelines]], in particular stating explicitly:
:''New editors on the site are not required to read through all of these policies and guidelines; they are '''not''' a list of rules that must be understood before participating in the site.''
My basic feeling is that the new editors who most need to read the rules (i.e., those who add first-person stories or even those who vandalize) are the ones who are least likely to ever even look at pages like "Helping Out", "Getting Started", and "Style Guide"; they'll never even see any warnings placed there. The editors who ''will'' read through these pages before starting to edit are those who are fundamentally concerned about doing things properly and basically aren't going to be breaking any rules. I think it's important to tell those editors not to worry and just dive in; I don't want anyone to be so intimidated by the rules that they never get involved.

This isn't really an earth-shattering change to the wiki :) But I think it does perhaps represent some of the basic assumptions that we make when interacting with new editors who make mistakes. Do we say "you should have already read all the rules" and assume that they are aware that they made a mistake? Or do we assume that they probably don't know the rules and instead say "you probably didn't know this, but this is how we generally do things around here".

Or maybe my recent spree of policy-writing has left me paranoid about the little things and I should just stop worrying about obscure details that nobody else will ever read ;) In any case, let me know if you have any thoughts. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 18:54, 16 February 2007 (EST)

==Fanfiction and Fanart==
Maybe it's just me, but I feel that the content on those sections is unencyclopedic and a bit...I don't know that it belongs here. There are two Oblivion fics and one Morrowind, so it's not a well-beloved section. I dunno, I almost want to see them deleted. [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:58, 21 February 2007 (EST)
:Another option that I just thought of is to move them to the User namespace, as subpages of the user who created them. And delete the links from [[Oblivion:Oblivion]] and [[Morrowind:Morrowind]]. It would remove them from the main article namespace (which is supposed to be encyclopedic) but is less controversial than a deletion. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:24, 21 February 2007 (EST)
:The site is not intended to be a 'pure encyclopedia' and I certainly welcome mind such content. It does, however, need to be clearly distinguished from the rest of the encyclopedic-type content. It doesn't really belong in any of the game namespaces even if closely related to a particular game. Offhand the only thing I can think of is to add it to a new '''FanFiction''' namespace. This is particularily relevant as someone recently e-mailed me some fan-fiction to put somewhere and I have to figure out where. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 14:51, 21 February 2007 (EST)

::Perhaps instead of creating a whole namespace for four articles they could be put into "General", with an index article "General:Fanfiction" that lists them all?
::Somewhat off-topic, but while checking what currently lives in the "General" namespace, I also noticed that there's a "Review" namespace with nothing in it. Was there an intended purpose for that namespace? In part I'm wondering because this discussion also prompted me to make some suggestions at [[Oblivion_Talk:Review Page]] about relocating some user reviews. Or should the "Review" namespace be recycled, since we're talking about a couple new namespaces ("Shadowkey", "Shivering")? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:10, 21 February 2007 (EST)

::Well, I think this is really a small issue. As Somercy noted, the number of fanfics on the site is quite small. That being said, I think that a new section for both reviews, fanArt, and fanfics would allow us to differentiate that content from the rest of the site. All we'd need is a simple disclaimer at the top of the page saying something like this:
::'''This section contains information created by the fanbase, such as reviews, fanfictions, and fanart based upon the Elder Scrolls Series of games.'''
::Any comments?--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 17:44, 21 February 2007 (EST)
:::If providing space for fanfic is part of the mandate for the site, (Which as it's DaveH's site and he says it is, I think we can take as written,) then clearly it should be in an area outside the CC Licence. I would suggest making a separate name space, full of pages that were locked to prevent editing. This is an additional admin burden though, as new pages created would have to be locked (Or deleted if they were not up to standard, and how you measure that is yet another issue.) [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 23:21, 24 February 2007 (EST)

:'''I agree with Somercy -- Fanfics don't belong here.''' In addition to being out-of-place, there are several logistical problems:
:* Potentially it can explode in size with little oversight. They're not data entries, but rather, original creative works. Which means that they won't be subject to the normal wiki process of review, winnowing and improvement. Wiki content works because it's open to continual review and upgrading. Without such review we can end up with total garbage on the site.
:* So, if you don't want total garbage on the site, how do you select it? You need some review and voting policy -- sort of an art committee. Which would be a pain to setup, and would lead to inevitable arguments and fights, since when it comes to such work, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Vs. current fact based work which we have now, which is ultimately subject to testable fact -- a (relatively) clear, testable standard.
:* The site is under CC license. Which means that if someone puts a fanfic on the site, then anyone else has the option to edit and change it around completely. Most authors won't like this. And again, there's no objective standard. Who's to say that my modification of the someone else's story (with more tender love scenes, '''or''' less tender love scenes, more fighting, '''or''' less bombastic writing) is better?
:* There are plenty of sites which are dedicated to supporting fan fiction. Their design is better suited to it. For example, a very quick web search returns [http://www.fanfiction.net/l/2508/3/0/1/1/0/0/0/0/0/1/ fanfiction.net: Oblivion].
:--[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 23:19, 21 February 2007 (EST)
::Wrye, you made my points even more coherent...marry me? [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:38, 22 February 2007 (EST)
::: :) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 19:18, 23 February 2007 (EST)

::::Overall, I agree that fanfiction doesn't seem to belong on a wiki. For now, though, I'm going to move them to the General namespace and add categories and bread crumb trails. This will at least avoid having readers confuse them for articles about the games. And it's also part of some reorganization that I'm doing with the general namespace that will hopefully make it a bit easier for readers to find content located there. Since I'm on a roll right now, I'm going to go ahead and do it... from the previous comments it doesn't seem like anyone objects to the idea. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:35, 2 March 2007 (EST)
:::Is there any set way of submitting fanfics here? Or do you just create a page in the proper place? [[User:24.1.3.132|24.1.3.132]] 10:50, 3 March 2007 (EST)
::::Just create a page in the General Namespace, and link it off [[General:Fanfiction]]--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 10:56, 3 March 2007 (EST)
:::::Cool! Thanks, I sometimes have trouble navigating this wiki... [[User:24.1.3.132|24.1.3.132]] 10:58, 3 March 2007 (EST)

== Stupidity on [[Morrowind:Hints]] ==
''This discussion has been added to the the subpage [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Curing Stupidity#February 2007: Morrowind:Hints]]. All community members are welcome to continue contributing to the discussion on the subpage.''

==Content Policy==
It has recently come to my attention that the official forums have updated their [http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=644278 Adult/Mature Content] rules. Now, on the surface, this does appear to interfere with our site, but according to the new rules:

''Q: Can I link to the website for a mod with adult content, or to the mod itself, as long as that site doesn’t have any pictures? What if I include a disclaimer in my post?

''A: In all of these cases the answer is no. It's not acceptable to simply include a disclaimer in your post, and even if that site doesn’t have pictures you still can’t link to it. We don’t like this sort of content as it creates problems for us, so you’ll have to be a little forgiving when dealing with our rules. If you have a question about what percentage of a site can contain these kinds of mods, there’s a good chance you’re going to have a problem with it.''

Since our website includes references to such mods as [[Tes3Mod:Better_Bodies#Bodies|Morrowind's Better Bodies]], it seems that this rule does apply to us, and we need have some type of disclaimer page before entering the site from the Official Forums, which I imagine we get quite a bit of traffic from with their help sections. I've talked to at least one of the mods (Summer) over there who said, ''"I think it may need a disclaimer page. We are still waiting to see if it can be arranged for there to be a host page from here. I will bring up Wiki Ratwar as it is linked constantly in the spoilers section and it does have links there to Psychodogs and BB's. I will get clarification on that as we may need to use a disclaimer page when linking there."''

Obviously, both parties want to make sure that the UESP is accessible to the official forums, so does anyone have any thoughts on this?--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 21:59, 23 February 2007 (EST)

:This isn't a personal criticism, Ratwar, but when it comes to legal BS, the correct thing '''to not take the initiative'''. If you don't ask, they don't have to stay "No" or "You have to change it." By asking, it means that they have to go to their lawyers and say "What about UESP?" At which point the lawyers have to say "No." So, if you don't ask they don't have to say. Going forward I would suggest that we do nothing until they lodge as specific complaint.

:Second note. If you'll follow the (very long and tedious discussion), there's the legal rule and there's what they say they will enforce, which are totally different things. If you follow the logic of the rule that they state at the beginning "Can't link to websites.. etc.", then clearly linking to most major ES websites would be forbidden. (In fact, even more ridiculously, you wouldn't be able to link to the ESF forum or to the main Oblivion website because it has been rated "Mature".)

:What they say they will enforce is much milder -- and also massively undefined. My read on this is that Bethesda doesn't ''want'' to clarify it -- because the more they clarify it, the more they have to say "No", and the more they antagonize modders, and cause major modding sites to become unlinked to. And Bethesda isn't stupid, the truth is that all of those websites (including UESP) help keep their games on shelves selling. (And Morrowind, a 4-5 year old game on the PC is still selling on store shelves -- that's amazing in the PC world -- and is largely due to the presence of mods.) So, again, they don't ''want'' to place restrictions on us -- if we don't ask, we won't force them to.

:Third note. The most annoying thing that struck me when reading through the discussion last night is that '''we're probably already covered by their rules!''' (Grrr. So much for a principled stand!) The Better Bodies page:
:*Already states says that ''Better Bodies portrays realistic nude human (and elf and orc) bodies. For those who would prefer it, a permanent underwear version is available for all races.'' I.e., there's already a disclaimer.
:*Contains no direct links to nude screenshots, or even screenshots of risque armor.
:*In fact, one of the posting guideliness for the page is: ''If the armor is adult rated (e.g., some of Cenobite's armor), then out of common courtesy to those who might be offended: 1) Don't add a link to an r-rated screenshot. 2) Do add a warning in the description."

:So for now, I would say:
:* '''Quit taking the initiative.''' Let Bethesda take the initiative and lodge a complaint with us if they like. They have a very long term relationship with Dave and will certainly do this if they feel the need.
:* If they make a more specific request, point out that the page already meets the standards that they've set out.
:* If that's not enough, then we should see what they request and then debate that request here.

:Final note: I know that the many/most contributors here have a pretty obsessive mindset -- and the natural inclination of that mindset is to seek clarification when faced with ambiguity. But in the legal world, shadows, greyness and vagueness are often desirable (kind of like playing a thief). If you force them to shine more light into that area, you'll most likely force them to say things that both they and we (as the modding/mod playing community) don't want them to say. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 23:14, 23 February 2007 (EST)

::I have to agree with Wrye here, best to not worry about legal stuff unless your a trained lawyer, if Beth's lawyers have an issue we will be told about it, otherwise any changes made may well do more harm than good. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 12:50, 24 February 2007 (EST)

:: Just as an appendum...Bethesda is well aware of the UESP and I get the occasional notice to take down certain copyrighted materials (like map/manual scans). If there was something on this site that they felt wasn't appropriate I'd be sure to hear about it. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 15:47, 2 March 2007 (EST)

==Request that Aristeo be returned to Editor Status==

This request has been resolved (see [[User Talk:Daveh#Resignation|Daveh's talk page]]), and therefore the discussion has been moved to a [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/De-Adminship Request|subpage]].

== UESP Server Status ==

I've noticed prolonged hang time on some pages today. E.g., while starting a new talk page just a few minutes ago. Earlier today I was completely unable to bring up Special:System Messages, even though other pages would load just fine at the same time. Is the server under additional load?

Or is it perhaps an ad thing? Perhaps there's prolonged delays the first time google tries to figure out what ads to apply to a particular page? I noticed that the ads for the new page that I created were indeed suited to the text of the page that I was creating -- so google must have been doing an immediate processing of the page. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 00:59, 26 February 2007 (EST)

:I haven't even been checking the site's server status over the last few days... a few other things keeping me busy ;) But a quick check right now suggests that UESP is not at all overloaded at the moment. It is possible that the ads are creating an additional delay as you suggest. The ads are obviously trying to be smart (although I've noticed a few pages where they were completely off base). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 01:11, 26 February 2007 (EST)

:I have been noticing some delays during the last month or so, too. Especially with the [[Special:Recentchanges]] page, when looking at a large number of changes (500 or so). Sometimes it even downloads with the wrong style sheet (the default monobook) or the old logo. Other times, when I click on a diff listed there I get an Error 503 page. I don't know what all this means, but you may have some ideas (I hope). --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:56, 26 February 2007 (EST)

::Seems to me that it's refreshing slower if it's in a tabbed browser? (I have 2 copies of firefox open, one with 13 tabs open and one with one tab open, the one with 1 is much faster to refresh the same page.) [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:08, 26 February 2007 (EST)

: I encountered a few slow downs last week that seemed to be related to the overall site (pauses of 30 seconds or so when no connection would work). I couldn't find an obvious cause to this (no excessive/hanging connections, no DoS, no hanging/crashed processes, etc...). On a guess I disabled the throttle extension I added to the web server some time ago (it wasn't doing anything and the original problem turned to not be related to bandwidth anyways).
:While I haven't encountered the same slowdowns since let me know if anyone else is still getting them, how often, when, etc.... and I'll continue to look into it. Things like the ads and other settings can be easily changed/disabled and then let run for a few days to see if it helps at all. Intermittent problems like this are always a pain to track down as its hard for me to catch 'in the act'. -- [[User:Daveh|Daveh]] 18:50, 28 February 2007 (EST)

::It seems to have worked. I am not experiencing any problems so far now. Thanks! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:42, 1 March 2007 (EST)
:::Aye, back to working fin here as well [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 05:51, 1 March 2007 (EST)

== Archiving Subpages ==

There are a couple subpages I'd like to suggest archiving. The main priorities here are a few pages that are resolved and/or mostly resolved, and that contain some of the recent drama that most of us agree we would like to put behind us so we can move on. In particular:
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/De-Adminship Request]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Principles Controversy]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Wikiscrolls Project]]
I'm proposing to create a page [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Subpages]] where all of the community portal subpages can be listed; a link to that page would be added to the tables in the [[#Contents|contents]] section. Those subpages that are archived would no longer be listed directly on the Community Portal page, but would still be accessible through the Community_Portal/Subpages page.

A couple of other candidates that could also be considered for archiving (just to reduce the size of the long
tables at the top of the page) are:
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Anonymous Editing]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Copyright Issues]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Morrowind Quest Pages]]
* [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Patrollers]]

If at some point in the future there is an interest in resuming one of these discussions, it could easily be moved back to the community portal listing. But in the meantime, having a shorter, more manageable list on this page seems like it would best overall.

Are there any objections to this idea, or to any of the individual selections? Or if enough people state that they're OK with it, then I could go ahead and do it. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:24, 27 February 2007 (EST)

:Sounds good to me [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:27, 27 February 2007 (EST)

:'''Rather than''' start yet another subpage, I've moved the subpage links to the top of the most recent archive subpage. (We should probably start adding to existing archive pages when practical, rather than start new archive subpages, else the length of the archive subpages list itself will become an annoyance.)

:As for the other subpages, I think that it is still too soon. I understand the desire to move on, but I think that it's important in terms of transparency for people who are non-admins for issues to not just suddenly disappear and be swept under the table. But balancing that against the desire for peace, I would suggest waiting a week and then moving Principles and De-Adminship to the archive page in the same way.

:As for the WikiScrolls link, I would prefer that it be left in in place (but add links to the related discussions to the subpage.) Again, the goal is transparency. Users should be able to find out easily about Wikiscrolls and the history behind its formation. The truth is that arguments happen, people get divorced, groups split. The reaons for why that happened should be left available so that new users can easily understand the reasons and make their own decicsions on what it all means.

:PS: We probably need a "This page has been archived" tempate. Maybe like so: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Atnhead Wikipedia Archive Template] --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 19:50, 27 February 2007 (EST)

==Daggerfall Pages==
I only looked at Witch Covens first because it seemed interesting. That sad fact is, all Daggerfall pages need serious work. I'd like to suggest forming a project like the Morrowind Design group to format and wikify the Daggerfall pages. I can't do it alone; I don't know the game... [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:36, 28 February 2007 (EST)
:I would really like to help, but (and there's always a but) I'm up to my eyes in Morrowind stuff, don't own Daggerfall, and want to begin helping the Tamriel Section eventually. The problem with Daggerfall is that it is quite old, so very few people have the game and are active on the wiki. Plus, unlike Arena, it hasn't been released into the public domain. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 12:49, 28 February 2007 (EST)
::Admittedly, but if we're gonna stock the pages on the wiki, we ought to keep them clean. I don't own it, myself, but I'd like to try to slog through the muck...[[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:54, 28 February 2007 (EST)
:::It looks like two simultaneous conversations have started on this topic: see also [[Daggerfall Talk:Daggerfall]]. That might be the better place to continue the discussion, although having a link here will help to let people know about it. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 14:29, 28 February 2007 (EST)

== A problem with logging in. ==

Whenever i log in it will show i have, but when i go back to the page i was on i get logged back out. is it because the account's new? [[User:67.142.130.49|67.142.130.49]] 22:35, 2 March 2007 (EST)

: Do you have cookies enabled? That might be a result of not having cookies enabled. Also, make sure your not looking at old cache by hard refreshing the page that tells you that your logged out. (CTRL+F5 in most browsers) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 23:06, 2 March 2007 (EST)

Cookies seem to be enabled, and Hard refreshing didn't work. [[User:67.142.130.49|67.142.130.49]] 23:24, 2 March 2007 (EST)

: Could you try using another browser or another computer? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 23:32, 2 March 2007 (EST)

I just tried Firefox and it didn't work, also I'm logged in when i exit the web browser and reopen it, but it still logs me out[[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 23:42, 2 March 2007 (EST)

:Are you saying that you log in, then use backspace to go back to the page you were previously viewing? What happens if you only go forwards while browsing and never go backwards in the page's history? Do you stay logged in then? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:31, 3 March 2007 (EST)

When i go back to the page where i'm logged in it's the same, the problem is I can't go to a new page without logging out. It shows that i'm not logged in in the corner. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 00:46, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I log in, and then I click on somthing like Main page or Recent Changes and i'm not logged in anymore.[[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 00:55, 3 March 2007 (EST)

:Thanks for clarifying that :) It really sounds to me like an issue with cookies. In Firefox, for example, under Tools -> Options -> Cookies, my settings are checked for "Allow sites to set cookies", unchecked for "for the originating site only", unchecked for "unless I have removed cookies set by the site" and keep cookies is set to "until they expire". In IE6, under Tools -> Internet Options -> Privacy I have it set to "medium" and (under advanced) the box "override automatic cookie handling" is unchecked. You might want to check whether somehow UESP has been added to an override list (in Firefox, under "Exceptions", in IE under "Sites") that is always blocked, or even try adding it to the list of explicitly always-allowed sites, at least for long enough to see whether that makes a difference. Hopefully some of those settings will help. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 01:30, 3 March 2007 (EST)

It's still not working, everything's set to allow cookies and it still dosen't work. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 01:53, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Everything points to a cookie problem but the options seem okay. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 01:57, 3 March 2007 (EST)
:Are you by any chance operating on a computer with user-restrictions, such as a school computer? These often have strict security measures in place that can interfere with the standard cookie operation. Not much you can do in that case, other than try and convince the school's I.T. people to stop being overly paranoid jerks. (Good luck with that.) What I don't get is that you were able to log in before, and you can't now. Very strange. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 01:58, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I'm on my own computer but it use to be a display model at a electronics store. [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 02:06, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I just tried going directly to the url for editing of this page and i was logged in on the editing page but it signed my name as my IP address. I'm automaticly logged in when i go to any url on this site the first time after opening the web browser but when i go anywhere else it shows that i'm logged out [[User:67.142.130.27|67.142.130.27]] 02:14, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Maybe I'm missing a cookie? [[User:67.142.130.36|67.142.130.36]] 17:45, 3 March 2007 (EST)

I just noticed that if I go to the main page from anywhere else on the site i'm logged back in, but it still logs me out if i go somewhere else on the site. Edit: Only on firefox. [[User:67.142.130.36|67.142.130.36]] 17:50, 3 March 2007 (EST)

Odd, I started a wikipedia account to see if i would have the same problem and I did, but now it's fine, i still have the problem over here. edit: nevermind, it started again. [[User:67.142.130.18|67.142.130.18]] 23:46, 3 March 2007 (EST)

:You could try just doing a complete browser cache reset. Delete all history and cookies and start again. It may be the cookie file exists but is corrupted somehow. Also wondering - though it may not be relevant - are you on dial-up? Just noticing that your IP has changed 3 times just in this discussion. (Though only the last number, which implies you have a dynamic IP of some sort, which is usually dial-up.) I don't know if that could affect your ability to log in, but there's a possibility it could be related? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 00:09, 4 March 2007 (EST)

I just tried in both firefox and IE7, and i have Hughesnet. [[User:67.142.130.18|67.142.130.18]] 00:34, 4 March 2007 (EST)

== General resolving thingy ==

Previously I brought a question related to a page here for the reason that questions presented in the Talk page of various pages usually do not get any kind of a reaction from anybody. Is there really a need for a page such as Oblivion:Imperial_Sewers_N._Exit/Directions? What's its purpose? That's what I want to know now. Then, I would like to propose that a specific talk page be designated for this kind of enquiries that concern a single page or a group of pages, but these questions would be resolved in a centralized manner instead of taking place on a variety of talk pages most editors seem to ignore. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 22:46, 7 March 2007 (EST)

== DrPhoton's misuse of his privileges ==

I am extremely dissatisfied with the recent misconduct of the user [[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]]. I challenged his edit on [[Morrowind:Quests]] and called for a consensus decision. DrPhoton responded in a completely inapproriate way: he reverted my edit. Doing so, he set me on the same line with vandals.

First of all, I cannot begin to emphasize enough, how inappropriate reverting my edit was in a case of an editorial dispute. First, because it is not the proper method of developing pages and second, because the case simply did not warrant a revert. My edit was an editorial decision, not vandalism that should have been '''reverted'''.

This can only be described as a gross misuse of administrative privileges of DrPhoton, to use his ability to revert, as a tool to force his view. I did learn something myself - I should check the page history before making an edit that contradicts a previous one and I will try to keep this in mind for the future.

However, the fact that I made an edit that in practice restored the page as it was before, can not be interpreted to allow such measures as taken by DrPhoton. Reverting edits that are not vandalism to restore your edit after another editor has disagreed with you is nothing but asking for an edit war.

The only reason which causes it to be avoided is that I'm not that childish. I cannot understand why DrPhoton refused to wait for the issue to be resolved before taking further action. Moreover, the action that he took was completely out of order and without any kind of basis as DrPhoton was unable to back his story.

He refered me to a generic conversation and went on to say "I consequently removed the links of the cities not having any miscellaneous quests left that start there", which was his personal decision only and in no form previously discussed by the community. This also did not give a response to my reasons of disputing the edit.

My arguments are: 1. Balmora is one of the most prominent cities in the game and for that reason alone its lacking is weird. 2. I don't think I'm so different from normal people that they aren't going to have the same reaction arriving to that page when I did: "where on Earth is Balmora". 3. There is absolutety no reason given for the fact that it's simply missing.

I don't want this to turn into another Aristeo vs. Wrye, from which I stayed well clear of - it can't since the opposite party is an Administrator, and I'm just an editor. This setup makes it even more inappropriate for DrPhoton to misuse his administravite privileges against me in what should have been a purely editorial dispute. Furthermore, the matter should have been discussed before ANY action, as I proposed.

DrPhoton isn't listed as an Administrator, but yet shomehow he has the power to revert edits. A power he blatantly misused to his advantage in an editorial dispute. His behavior was so unprofessional and unsportsmanlike, any special privileges DrPhoton has, but have for some reason been hidden from the community, must be removed, because he cannot be trusted with them.

I would like to ask the opinions of other editors and administrators on this matter. The initial dispute now pales in comparison as the improper way in which DrPhoton handled the case now has tenfold meaning. The whole issue could have been solved easily if it wasn't for the offensive reverting done by him.

There needs to be made a definitive decision whether an administrative tool is allowed to be used by those trusted to have access, to push their personal editorial views. This is the first known case where my edits have been outright reverted and I am taking it as a personal insult. I will be expecting an apology. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 08:04, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Oblivion talk:Artifacts

2007-03-11T11:56:02Z

FMan: Azura's Star

How exactly is an artifact supposed to be defined? As far as I can tell these items are all simply powerful magic items, no different from many others. Also, this page isn't linked from anywhere in any case. Might flag this for deletion if no-one objects, or if no-one edits this page in a couple of weeks :) --[[User:Endareth|Endareth]] 20:15, 20 April 2006 (EDT)

This page needs someone to overhaul it (I haven't the time right now). The reason this page exists is to catalog the items you obtain through Daedric Shrine quests. While these items do technically fall into the "Unique Items" category, daedric rewards have historically been labeled as "artifacts". --[[User:Thehankerchief|Thehankerchief]] 23:11, 18 May 2006 (EDT)
:I think best would be to create "daedric artifacts" section under "Unique Items" instead.

My definition (formulated back in MW days) would be that if an item has unique graphics, and doesn't LOOK like any other item in the game, it's an artifact. If there's only one, but it looks exactly the same as another item, it's only "unique", and not an artifact. (In MW, this included all of the Daedric artifacts, but also a few other legendary items.) With the addition of levelled items in Oblivion, I might omit those, and only include those that are unique both in attributes and appearance, as well as constant in attributes, i.e. always have the same stats, regardless of your level or any other factor. Unfortunately, as I'm relatively new to this game, I don't know how many items would meet those criteria. -- [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 18:51, 19 May 2006 (EDT)

:Your definition is pretty good. In fact, it only adds a few items to the set of items encountered through the Daedric Shrine quests. I'm not sure what the policy is on including images of these artifacts on the page, but that could be a cool idea. I've included a spot for them in my new layout. Below is the list of all the items with unique appearances.
:Weapons:
:*Brusef Amelion's Sword (subtlely unique)
:*Ceremonial Dagger (not in game.. yet)
:*Ebony Blade
:*Goldbrand
:*Hromir's Icestaff
:*Mace of Molag Bal
:*Rugdumph's Sword
:*Sanguine Rose
:*Skull of Corruption
:*Staff of Everscamp
:*Staff of Worms
:*Umbra
:*Volendrung
:*Wabbajack
:Armors:
:*Brusef Amelion's Armor
:*Masque of Clavicus Vile
:*Saviour's Hide
:*Spell Breaker
:*Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw
:*Imperial Dragon Armor
:*Knights of the Thorn Shield (not entirely unique 2 uses)
:Clothing:
:*Gray Cowl of Nocturnal
:--[[User:Thehankerchief|Thehankerchief]] 01:04, 1 June 2006 (EDT)

::Hmm, I've just added all of the Daedric artifacts. I may add some of the rest of these later. Most of it exists in other places. I personally added Brusef Amelion's stuff to the Unique page. (On request) I'm also not sure if things that are unique, but not particularly useful, such as the Staff of Everscamp, belong here. That's pretty much a one-quest deal, and the only thing you do with it is get rid of it. Certainly not anything you'd want to keep. Brusef's armor is, well, just plain, boring, unenchanted armor except for the cuirass, which just has a mild frost resist enchantment on it. Although I guess since you actually have to raid a tomb for it... eh. Others, I just don't know enough about. Rugdumph's Sword, for example. Never even heard of that. Imperial Dragon Armor - Is that really even unique? I mean, maybe it is in-game, but I'd think that other people would get to wear that as well... I don't know. I'll make it someone else's call.-- [[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 23:27, 12 June 2006 (EDT)

::: Imperial Dragon Armor is unique in the world (well there is a light and heavy version, but you'll only use the one that fits your skills). You get it as a reward for finishing the main quest. Rugdumph's Sword is part of [[Oblivion:The_Nobles_Daughter]]. Maybe we should just stick with the daedric quest related items.. unfortunately most have their own poorly formatted pages already, which are linked from [[Oblivion:Daedric Quests]]. --[[User:Thehankerchief|Thehankerchief]] 00:27, 16 June 2006 (EDT)

::::If you ask me, I'd put only the artifacts that count towards the "artifact" statistic to this page.{{unsigned|Pascal}}

I just added the Draconian Madstone to this page. It already had its own (minimal) page and wasn't listed on any of the other item pages. It also meets most of the criteria suggested in the previous discussion: it is a unique item with a unique appearance; it is "legendary" (i.e., has a documented history). The only criterion it doesn't meet is that it isn't a Daedric artifact (as far as I can tell the artifact statistic is simply a count of Daedric artifacts); but by that criterion, Umbra should technically be removed from the list.

I'm also very tempted to move the Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw to this page. It is described in [[Tamriel:Books/Tamrielic Lore|Tamrielic Lore]], along with most of the items currently on this page. And it has a unique appearance. (The only other Oblivion items described in that book are Mehrunes Razor, which is mod-specific, and the Bloodworm Helm, which is leveled and also is lost permanently at the end of its quest, so it's not really useful). The distinction between artifacts and unique items is clearly somewhat arbitrary, but I think the Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw qualifies as an artifact... unless someone else wants to chime in and convince me otherwise :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 03:31, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

:It was an artifact in Morrowind, so I consider it to be one here. It's just in Oblivion it isn't given out as a result of a daedric shrine quest. [[User:Quillan|Quillan]][[User talk:Quillan|Talk]] 10:05, 20 September 2006 (EDT)

It would have been so cool if they made it to where you can make a black azuras star. I would still like it even it sayed a black star. -- [[User:24.214.43.55|24.214.43.55]] (moved by [[User:JustTheBast|JustTheBast]] 21:59, 16 February 2007 (EST))

==New Criteria==
On IRC, Lurlock and I have been discussing whether the criteria for artifacts should be:
* Only one of the item exists in the game
* The item has a unique appearance
* The item has a unique enchantment (or script). I've applied this one somewhat subjectively; some items such as the Amulet of Kings are not technically enchanted, but are presumably supposed to be enchanted.

First, some items that do '''not''' qualify with these criteria, in my opinion:
* Brusef Amelion's Cuirass and Brusef Amelion's Sword (enchantment not unique)
* Imperial Dragon Armor. In the CS, there is also a full suit of "Emperor's" Armor with the same appearance, plus Tiber Septim's Cuirass. Furthermore, Martin's Emperor's Robe shares the same enchantment. All of which suggests to me that this armor is not considered to be a unique artifact, but rather representative of what is worn by the emperors.
* Knights of the Thorn Medallion: In addition to the one your character can receive, three other Knights of the Thorn wear these (Bremann Senyan, Jhared Strongblade, and Farwil Indarys). So this seems to be a medallion available to any member, and not an artifact.
* Knights of the Thorn Shield: Both Bremman Senyan and Farwil Indarys have one, so I would again think that this is a type of shield available to any Knight of the Thorn.

The items that do potentially qualify (in addition to those already listed on the page) are:
* Amulet of Kings
* Apron of Adroitness
* Ayleid Crown of Lindai
* Ayleid Crown of Nenalata
* Blackwater Blade
* Bloodworm Helm
* Brush of Truepaint
* Chillrend
* Debaser
* Dreamworld Amulet (from Henantier's quest)
* Escutcheon of Chorrol
* Eye of Nocturnal
* Great Welkynd Stone
* Hrormir's Icestaff
* Jewel of the Rumare
* Necromancer's Amulet
* Ring of Eidolon's Edge
* Ring of Sunfire
* Rugdumph's Sword
* Spelldrinker Amulet
* Staff of Indarys
* Staff of Worms
* Staff of the Everscamp
* Statuette of a Dog (from Clavicus Vile)
* Thornblade
* Weatherward Circlet
* Witsplinter
It's not exactly a short list, but I doubt it's any longer than the list at [[Morrowind:Artifacts]]. It's longer than TheHankerchief's list above in part because it includes staffs, rings, amulets, and miscellaneous items. Also, I've included several leveled items (only one of them ever exists in game, even if the CS lists multiple possible versions).

Any votes for or against lengthening the current artifacts page? Any votes for or against individual items on this list? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 03:15, 8 October 2006 (EDT)

:I'd suggest the following:

:#The item exists solely
:#The item has a unique appearance
:#The item has an enchantment with unequalled power
:#The item is not levelled
:#The item is usable by the player at all times

:e.g. Spell Breaker

:#Has no similar or duplicate item
:#Has a unique appearance
:#The item has a very powerful Reflect Spell enchantment, unmatched
:#Level-independent
:#The player is able to use it once the associated quest has been completed

:The item complies with all the criteria on the above list. --[[User:Brightone|Brightone]] 06:23, 8 October 2006 (EDT)

::I don't think being leveled should disqualify an item from being considered as an artifact. In particular, both "Necromancer's Amulet" and "Bloodworm Helm" are items that have been included in previous ES games as artifacts (see for example [[Tamriel:Books/Tamrielic Lore]]). In Oblivion they are leveled items but that to me is more just a technicality of how the developers set them up: there is still only one of each, and they are described as being powerful items. Therefore, I think they qualify as artifacts.
::I'm not sure I understand the criterion "The item is usable by the player at all times". Spell breaker, for example, can not be obtained until you reach level 10, so it is not usable at all times. Do you mean that you want to exclude items such as the Amulet of Kings, that the player is unable to wear? In that case, it's not something that I think should exclude an item from being an artifact, since the Amulet of Kings is obviously a unique item with great power; your character spends half of the main quest trying to retrieve it. Or am I misunderstanding this criterion? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:53, 8 October 2006 (EDT)

:What about Mysterium Xarxes? --[[User:Den|Den]] 05:30, 9 October 2006 (EDT)

:perhaps i'll agree with you on my 4th criterion. almost everything is levelled in ob, including quest items, enemies, NPCs and so on. no wonder some artefacts are levelled as well. as for my fifth criterion. yeah, you got me exactly right. but you've convinced me that it is not reasonable, too. anyways, i think there should be made some distiction between usable and unusable artefacts. that'll be fair. wouldnt you agree? i'm sure we'll arrive at something eventually. --[[User:Brightone|Brightone]] 15:19, 9 October 2006 (EDT)

::Maybe a distinction should be drawn between usable and unusable artifacts? Many of those on this list don't really have any practical use except as items you need to find for quests - Brush of Truepaint, Eye of Nocturnal, Statuette of a Dog, Great Welkynd Stone, the aforementionned Amulet of Kings, and the Dreamworld Amulet all fall into this category. I'd call them "Quest Items", more than anything else. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 16:43, 9 October 2006 (EDT)

:I would argue that the purpose of these pages are to help players understand what is available to them for use. Hence we should evaluate the term "artifact" from a player's perspective as opposed to the world cannon's perspective. For an example of what I mean here is that just because other characters in the game possess similar items, this does not mean that the item is not an artifact to the player. Also, this statement implies leaving out useless items like the Amulet of Kings and its ilk.

:As far as leveled items go, I don't think they need to be disqualified from being on this page, as long as the item is still listed on the [[Oblivion:Leveled_Items|Leveled Items]] page - fulfilling that page's purpose of warning the players of items whose power depends on their level when they find it. This is not to say that we should go willy nilly adding leveled items to the artifacts page. As mentioned, The Necromancer's Amulet is a traditional TES artifact, so it makes a great example of something we should add.

:Finally, The nice thing about this page is that once it is complete, you can simply lock it down, so we probably don't need a set of specific criteria where some guiding principles and a set of discussions on a few items will do. --[[User:Thehankerchief|Thehankerchief]] 15:58, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

::OK, I can see everyone's point about this page only including items useful to the player. So based on that, a few items disappear off the list:
::* Amulet of Kings
::* Brush of Truepaint
::* Dreamworld Amulet (from Henantier's quest)
::* Eye of Nocturnal
::* Great Welkynd Stone
::* Statuette of a Dog (from Clavicus Vile)
::Any other items that anyone considers not powerful enough to be listed on the page? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:01, 14 October 2006 (EDT)

:::Since we have the Gray Cowl and Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw already, should we add the other faction questline rewards? (Imp. Dragon Armor, Staff of Worms, Blade of Woe) {{unsigned|67.173.87.149}}

::::Thanks for the suggestion, but based on the criteria discussed above several of these items (in particular the Imperial Dragon Armor and the Blade of Woe) would not qualify as artifacts. The general consensus seems to be to reserve the artifact page for unusually powerful items with unique enchantments. When I (or some other volunteer) ever get around to expanding the artifacts page based upon the above discussion, the page is likely to be overly long, so there would not seem to be a need to be looking for additional items to fill out the page. IMHO. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 01:04, 25 November 2006 (EST)

== Azura's Star ==

The entry says: "See the Tamriel entry on Azura for information on the history of Azura's Star." This led me to believe there is lore about its history. Instead, I found just information on its appearance in past games and I think this is highly misleading. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 07:56, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

User talk:TheRealLurlock

2007-03-11T11:47:51Z

FMan: Lusty Argonian Maid

User talk:ShakenMike

2007-03-11T11:40:30Z

FMan:

== I downloaded some stuff from my microsoft points for this game ==

The vile lair,Theives den and the wizard tower were my choices for this game.

is there a way to make alot of money for these three quest?--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 17:38, 5 March 2007 (EST)

:I dont think you can fail to make money out of them tbh, especially vile lair. Its full of loot! [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 17:40, 5 March 2007 (EST)

It's also my birthday as well and I'll try to get those quests done later.Is there any other downloads should I have or just those three?--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 21:39, 5 March 2007 (EST)

== I think I'm going to trade obivion ==

Due to lots of problems with game like loading times,Glitches and game freezing.I don't think I can play this game anymore.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 15:17, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:Sorry to hear your not enjoying it, personally i think its great, but then I dint really have any of those issues. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:31, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Is it my Xbox 360 lens the problem?

Could you tell me how you could avoid this problem in the future of the game?

Should I buy the PC version or does it have the same problem?--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 15:36, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:I only have the Pc version, so I cannot comment of if it is better or not. however, the PC version does benefit from console mode and mods. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 16:42, 7 March 2007 (EST)

It will be my first time playing a PC game if I buy the PC game. What requierment for my computer to play them?--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 18:35, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:Oblivion's requirements are ridiculously high. Chances are you won't be able to run it decently enough. I'd strongly advice you to stick with the box version (feel free to disagree anyone). --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 19:46, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Ok thanks and I'll keep playing the Xbox 360 version --[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 00:07, 8 March 2007 (EST)then.

You could always use the Oldblivion mod if your computer isn't up to scratch. I think the requirements are similar to that of Morrowind? Of course, graphics take a bit of a dive. [[User:Th232|Th232]] 01:01, 8 March 2007 (EST)

I don't have Windows XP and my computer 73 GB left.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 07:18, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:It works in Win 2000, and 73 GB is way more than enough. What's more important is your processor, ram, and video card. On my computer, which is just barely up to box-specs, it won't run at all, but using Oldblivion it does, and the game is actually MORE stable than Morrowind ever was. (Probably due to better memory-management.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 09:24, 8 March 2007 (EST)

I guess I'll get my computer upgrade with Windows 2000 then.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 14:59, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:You mean you don't even have 2000? What are you on? 98? ME? Yeah, in that case you'll probably need to upgrade, but you don't need XP necessarily. 2000 is good enough. But then, if your computer is so old you're still running 98 or ME, you'll probably need some new hardware, if not a whole new computer. What kind of specs are we dealing with here? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 17:03, 8 March 2007 (EST)

It windows 98SE and 56MB of Ram.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 19:33, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:Err... I take it you're just missing a 2 in that "56 MB"? What kind of video card do you have? [[User:Th232|Th232]] 00:02, 9 March 2007 (EST)

I don't think I have a video card install yet.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 02:17, 9 March 2007 (EST)

:Ok... I think you have a video card that's integrated with your motherboard. You sure you only have 56 MB of ram? [[User:Th232|Th232]] 01:19, 10 March 2007 (EST)

:Like I said before, just stick with the XBOX version and don't bother fighting with a PC. It's probably gonna be a lot of problems. Especially as you already have a game going, I don't see why you'd want to switch over - I've been thinking of changing from PC to XBOX 360! --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 07:40, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

User talk:DrPhoton

2007-03-11T11:36:51Z

FMan: Your recent actions

{| border="0" cellpadding="5" cellspacing="0";"
|align="right" | {{Cookie|message=Thanks for helping me correct my spelling mistakes, and for doing all of your good work. :D --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 00:27, 19 June 2006 (EDT)}}
| align="left" | {{Cookie|message=For your aid with numerous image-related inquiries, the "skills table" incident, modifying the Ashlander tribal flags (to look ''like'' flags), and your easily recognizable dedication to the Morrowind section and the UESP as a whole. Thank you for the example you set. -- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 18:27, 26 August 2006 (EDT)}}
|}

==A Small Favor: Feedback==
Good day DrPhoton,
I just completed posting a further suggestion on the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal|Community Portal]] - specifically regarding the [[Tamriel:Books]] section - and would appreciate your feedback on such, notably as you are both a frequent contributor to the site and were able to lend some valuable aid in sorting out other inquiries of mine. Thus, if you find yourself with a moment to spare, I'd appreciate your stopping by and chiming in on the subject. Thanks!

PostScript: Naturally, feel free to delete this at your leisure. Again, my thanks... 
-- [[User:Booyah boy|Booyah boy]] 10:00, 4 September 2006 (EDT)

==Morrowind:Skills==
I just wanted to drop you a quick line regarding the Morrowind:Skills table, in response to your notes on my talk page. I have since replaced the id tags, and just wanted to see if that cleared up the problems I - inadvertently - created...
Oh, also, I was wondering if (as you seem to be the in-house Morrowind expert) you could weigh in on the three image-related inquiries at the top of my [[User talk:Booyah boy | talk page]] (under the "Site" category). I have over 11,000 images from Morrowind, Bloodmoon, and Tribunal (containing just about every texture and icon found in-game), and was wondering where to place them. Thanks!

== re: Tamriel Templates ==

Please be careful when adding the Tamriel Templates because you may be generating redundant titles, as was the case in [[Bloodmoon:East Empire Company]]. In [[UESPWiki:Style Guide#Sections]] it is mentioned explicitly that you shouldn't start the page with a section that matches the page title. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:49, 5 April 2006 (EDT)
:Yeah, I knew that rule, which was in fact half the cause of this problem. I was trying to save a heap of time by writing a quick template that would auto-categorise a page AND add the header for the pages that wanted it. However because of MW 1.5's transclusion handling that broke category sorting. So I fixed the template and subst:ed it instead, but now I find I apparently hadn't saved the latest change, meaning the headers are never hidden (then again noinclude/includeonly don't seem to stack the way they're meant to anyway). So much for shortcuts. :) Anyway thanks for letting me know, I probably wouldn't have noticed it so soon otherwise. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]] 05:41, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

== Copyright Violation? ==

Check out [[Morrowind Talk:Easter Eggs]]. --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 10:49, 5 April 2006 (EDT)

Check out [[Bloodmoon Talk:Miscellaneous Quests]]. --[[User:Elanor|Elanor]] 12:00, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

==Region:Tamriel moved==
When was it decided that the Places namespace is to be created? And what is this:

Page to be deleted

(Moved)

If you moved the pages, what are these? --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 12:37, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

:Can you be more specific? Which page are you talking about? There's no Places namespace that I know of.
:''Page to be deleted (Moved)'' means that the page has been moved and no other page links to it, and it is therefore marked for deletion. To check where it has been moved see the [[Special:log/move|move log]]. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 12:58, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
::There was a reference to "Region:Tamriel moved to Tamriel:Places:", which confused me. So if you move a page, does it automatically leave a "to be deleted" page in place of the page? I'm still new with it so I don't know if it's a feature of the wiki. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 13:22, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
:::When you move a page, the original one is replaced with a redirect link so that links to this page in the rest of the wiki are not broken. If these links are edited to point to the new page, the old page becomes an orphan (no links pointing to it) and can therefore be deleted.
:::I haven't myself moved the [[Region:Tamriel]] page, but I guess it was moved because there is no Region namespace and the content was better suited under the Tamriel namespace. I just put in the Delete template after it was marked for deletion. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 14:43, 7 April 2006 (EDT)
::::Oh, okay, thanks for clearing this up for me. :) --[[User:FMan|FMan]] 16:49, 7 April 2006 (EDT)

== Bloodmoon Books Category ==

I noticed you added some Morrowind books to the Bloodmoon-Books category. I think it makes more sense to only add books that are unique to Bloodmoon to this category. There is already a category for Morrowind Books. --[[User:Elanor|Elanor]] 11:51, 8 April 2006 (EDT)

:The books can be added to both categories then, since they can be found in both games. I din't know there was one already for Morrowind, otherwise I would have done it. I'll add them to the Morrowind category shortly... --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 12:00, 8 April 2006 (EDT)

== UESP News ==

Hello. I am about to post a news update on the front page about on the progress being made here at UESP. Including the progress that you've been contributing with, what are some of the things here you've noticed that have been steadily improved upon recently? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 18:19, 30 June 2006 (EDT)
:Hi. Apart from all the work you've been doing on the general organisation of the site, I have recently noticed a lot of activity on the [[Tamriel:Books]] section. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 10:44, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

== Your user page ==

You really should make a user page. It's been red forever, and it has risen to '''number one''' on the [[Special:Wantedpages|most linked to list]]. A simple "Hey, I'm DrPhoton" would work for me. Of course, you don't have to or anything. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 00:10, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

:You're right, I should write up a user page. I've been wanting to do this for a long time now, but never found the time. Furthermore, I don't just want to put one line, but to write something decent, which delays things even more. Anyway, since I'm honoured (?) to be number one in the wanted list, I'll try to get this sorted out this weekend. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:12, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

::Heh.. No rush ;) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 06:47, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

== 2000 edit count ==

Congratulations on your 2000th edit! --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 15:55, 25 September 2006 (EDT)

:Thank you very much! There's many more to come... :) --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:20, 26 September 2006 (EDT)

== Proposed Solution on "Fake Soul Gem" vs. "A Bet with Galbedir" ==
Would like your input before we implement...see [[Morrowind Talk:A Bet with Galbedir]]. Thanks!--[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 20:27, 7 November 2006 (EST)

== Vibrant Book Skin ==

Looks like you're using the skin that I made. :) If I make any further updates to it, may I update your monobook.css file? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 12:23, 10 November 2006 (EST)

:Yes please! Though watch out, becuase I've made some modifications of my own regarding the thumbnail borders, and I may experiment with the logo. Great skin BTW! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 07:00, 11 November 2006 (EST)

:: Thanks :) --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] | [[User_talk:Aristeo|Talk]] 21:21, 11 November 2006 (EST)

:::Tanks for the update, but as I said, I made modifications of my own regarding the thumbnail. The story is that I have one machine with IE6, where the thumbnail borders appear in black, and another with IE7, where they are transparent (as it should). So I think I'll update IE and problem solved. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:45, 13 November 2006 (EST)

== NPC vs. Place title on the NPC list. Thanks for the input, but... ==

I had those there for a reason. I understand why you may have felt this change was necessary. I'm currently putting together a proposal to revamp the quest pages, and this will have a major impact on any NPC information that's placed on the wiki, so it will be a while before we add any more NPC pages, except for those in locations that are not quest related. Have a little patience please. --[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 08:49, 31 October 2006 (EST)

== Morrowind Stub tag ==
Just wanted to let you know that we now have a Morrowind stub tag, '''<nowiki>{{stub-mw}}</nowiki>'''.--[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 06:24, 18 November 2006 (EST)

:Great! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 12:33, 18 November 2006 (EST)

== Thanks! ==

Thanks for fixing up many of the pages I'm working on!

--[[User:Cdevine|Cdevine]] 12:39, 20 November 2006 (EST)

:No problem. Welcome to the wiki! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:03, 21 November 2006 (EST)

== Transparent Background Images ==

I noticed you've been uploading a bunch of pictures with transparent backgrounds to use with the new skin. However, you should know that these will not work in IE6, which does not support PNG alpha channels. They will only work in IE7 or Firefox. Since, at this time, IE6 is still by far the most common browser being used [http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_stats.asp], you might want to try an alternate solution for these images. My suggestion would be to leave them as JPGs, and use the background color (#FBEFD5, or RGB=251,239,213) instead of the white. (I convinced Aristeo to remove the textured background and replace it with a solid color for this reason.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 09:28, 29 November 2006 (EST)

:I'm aware of the problem, but I don't have the time nor the software to do that. However, there is a fix for IE6 that can be implemented, and hopefully DaveH will do that soon. This way we would all be able to enjoy images with transparency and would save a lot of hassle (Aristeo may even bring back his textured backgorund). --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 18:46, 29 November 2006 (EST)

== RSS feed ==

I'm asking everyone who has been using the RSS feed to view [[Special:Recentchanges|Recentchanges]] lately to consider avoiding it for the next few weeks. Unfortunately, the server seems to be having some problems with the RSS feed, which is one important factor leading to server shutdowns such as the one that happened this weekend; see [[UESPWiki:Community Portal#UESP server problems]] for more details. So if it would be possible for you to not use RSS until January, when hopefully we can figure what is really going on, I think it would help the site alot. Thank you! --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 11:22, 18 December 2006 (EST)

:No problem! I've just deactived it. Hope this helps. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:02, 19 December 2006 (EST)

::Thanks! Now we just have to wait and see how the server behaves over the next few days :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 10:57, 19 December 2006 (EST)

:::Just a partial update: the site is back up, and most importantly Daveh is checking the site every few days. Which means that a couple random bad connections from the RSS feed won't cause any real problems any more. On the other hand, what causes these bad connections still hasn't been investigated (as far as I know). In other words, I think you can go ahead and reactivate your feed, but I can't guarantee that I won't change my mind :) Actually, if you do restart it, I'm likely to keep an eye on your RSS connections and see if I can use them for debugging... if you wouldn't mind me occasionally asking questions like "do you have any idea what might have been different at 8:30 pm on Tuesday?". --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:55, 7 January 2007 (EST)

::::Thanks for the info. You may use my RSS for debugging if you wish, as it has been not working well for some time now. I've just reenabled it. --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:16, 8 January 2007 (EST)

== Patrollers ==
On the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Patrollers|Community Portal]] I made a proposal to start a new group of editors known as patrollers. It's primarily meant to be a way to make life easier for those editors (like you) who regularly monitor the Recent Changes page. Patrollers will have access to a couple of special features, and will be able to keep track of which edits have or have not been checked by other patrollers. I proposed that you should be one of these new patrollers, but I haven't noticed you state whether you'd like to be one. Before passing this proposal on to Daveh to get implemented, I just wanted to confirm that you would like be a patroller. There aren't any strings attached to the offer; the plan is really to reduce editors' workloads, not add any new expectations or task lists. Let me know what you think... thanks! --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:55, 7 January 2007 (EST)

:As I posted on the [[UESPWiki:Community Portal/Patrollers|Community Portal]], I'd be happy to become a patroller. Thanks for your vote of confidence! --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:38, 8 January 2007 (EST)

== Feedback ==

It's nice to see you are still active here. Thank you for you efforts. Keep it up! --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] | http://www.fooman.fi/ 08:45, 17 January 2007 (EST)

:Yes, I'm still active and I'm now a [[UESPWiki:Patrollers|Patroller]], so watch out what you post to the site! ;) --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 08:50, 17 January 2007 (EST)

::Hehe. I will. :) --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] | http://www.fooman.fi/ 09:23, 17 January 2007 (EST)

==Morrowind: Rank Required Quests==
Hey, I've been thinking about the need to put required ranks on every quest page. Basically, I don't see that it is needed if the prerequisite quest had the same rank required. Of course, it isn't that big of a deal, so if you want to keep doing it that way, I have no objection, I just want to be on the same page with you. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 16:20, 22 January 2007 (EST)

:Well I think it makes sense now that we have links to the quests from many other pages (i.e. places, NPCs, etc.) and one may end up on a quest page without having passed through the prerequisite quest before. Also, just for completeness, so that you don't have to go two or three quests before to find out what the required rank is. In any case, it's just one line that doesn't take out any more space (the thumbnail on the right is larger than the datasheet of the quest). --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 03:05, 23 January 2007 (EST)

== Thanks for your help and the cookies ==

I'm also enjoying myself with both games(Obivion and Morrowind)

I'm playing Obivion now and more often.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 17:41, 22 February 2007 (EST)

:You're welcome! ;) --[[User:DrPhoton|DrPhoton]] 08:17, 23 February 2007 (EST)

== Your recent actions ==

I am disgusted by your reverting my edit. It was a gross misconduct on your part and it cannot be tolerated. I am taking this up with the community. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 07:36, 11 March 2007 (EDT)

Morrowind:An Admiring Sponsor

2007-03-11T11:26:29Z

FMan: /* Crassius Curio */ correction

{{Morrowind House Hlaalu Trail}}
{{NeedsImage-mw}}
{{Quest Header|Giver=[[Morrowind:Crassius Curio|Crassius Curio]]
|Start=[[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]]
|Reward=Sponsorship
|ID=HH_Crassius
|Prev=None
|Next=[[Morrowind:Sealed Orders|Sealed Orders]]
|Loc=[[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]]
|AddAbove= *'''Required Rank:''' Oathman
|AddBelow=
|Image=
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Talk with people in the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House]] to be directed to [[Morrowind:Crassius Curio|Crassius Curio]] for sponsoring.
# Speak to Crassius Curio to learn his request.
# Unequip all your items.
# Speak to Crassius Curio again to be sponsored.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===You Need a Sponsor===
Once you reach the rank of Oathman in the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House]], you'll need a sponsor in order to be promoted further. Talking with people in the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House]], you will be directed to [[Morrowind:Crassius Curio|Crassius Curio]] in his manor on the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Plaza in [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]].

===Crassius Curio===
If you haven't met Curio before, he's a strange one to say the least. In order to be sponsored, all you need to do is take your clothes off... all of them. Once you've removed everything, just speak with him to be sponsored.

===Spying on Odral Helvi===
Curio will then direct you to [[Morrowind:Odral Helvi|Odral Helvi]] for more quests. It seems like Crassius suspects him of corruption and he wants you to keep him informed of Helvi's moves.

{{Quest Footer|Prev=None|Next=[[Morrowind:Sealed Orders|Sealed Orders]]|Up=[[Morrowind:House Hlaalu#House Hlaalu Quests|House Hlaalu Quests]]}}

Morrowind:Hlaalu Hortator

2007-03-11T11:25:10Z

FMan: /* Dram Bero */ it's nicer now

[[category:{{NAMESPACE}}-Quests-Main Quest|{{PAGENAME}}]]
{{Template:{{NAMESPACE}} Quests Main Trail}} __NOTOC__

{{Quest Header|Giver=None
|Reward=[[Morrowind:Artifacts#Belt_of_the_Hortator|Belt of the Hortator]]
|Prev=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Redoran Hortator|Redoran Hortator]]
|Next=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Telvanni Hortator|Telvanni Hortator]]
|Loc=[[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]], [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]], [[Morrowind:Dren Plantation|Dren Plantation]], [[Morrowind:Omani Manor|Omani Manor]], [[Morrowind:Ules Manor|Ules Manor]]
|AddAbove=
|AddBelow=* '''Required Items:''' 3,000 septims
* '''Difficulty:''' Medium (travel, tough fight)
|Image=Mq hlaalu.jpg
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Meet with [[Morrowind:Crassius Curio|Crassius Curio]] in the Curio Manor, [[Morrowind:Vivec Hlaalu|Vivec Hlaalu]] Plaza, to receive an overview of the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] councillors.
# Get Curio's vote for Hortator.
# Find [[Morrowind:Yngling Half-Troll|Yngling Half-Troll]] in [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]], [[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|St. Olms]] Plaza, Yngling Manor, and get his vote (gold required).
# Find [[Morrowind:Dram Bero|Dram Bero]] hidden in the Haunted Manor, [[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|St. Olms]], and get his vote.
# Learn about [[Morrowind:Orvas Dren|Orvas Dren]] from Dram Bero.
# Take care of Orvas Dren in the [[Morrowind:Dren Plantation|Dren Plantation]], north of [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]] (blackmail or kill him).
# Find [[Morrowind:Velanda Omani|Velanda Omani]] o\in the [[Morrowind:Omani Manor|Omani Manor]] on Elmas Island, east of the [[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|St. Olms Canton]], and get her vote.
# Find [[Morrowind:Nevena Ules|Nevena Ules]] is in Ules Manor, just north-west of [[Morrowind:Suran|Suran]] (east of the [[Morrowind:Dren Plantation|Dren Plantation]], and north-east of [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]]) and get her vote.
# Return to Curio and be named the Hortator of [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House Hlaalu]].

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Overview===
This quest is part of convincing each of the three Great Houses to vote you as their Hortator. The exact order you do the houses in is not important. Again, you must visit all the council members of the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House]] to convince them to vote for you. The [[Tamriel:Books/Yellow Book of 3E 426|Yellow Book of 3E 426]] lists these members and can be obtained from Nileno Dorvayn at the [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Council Hall. The members are Crassius Curio, Yngling Half-Troll, Dram Bero, Nervana Oles, and Velanda Omani.

===Crassius Curio===
Crassius Curio is downstairs in the Curio Manor in [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]], [[Morrowind:Vivec Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Plaza, and can be convinced with just a little gold. If you're a member of the house and a male, it only takes 500 drakes (or 300 if your disposition is high enough), otherwise it takes a costly 1000 drakes. If you are a female, or have 100 disposition (yes, as a male...), all it takes is a kiss. Simple enough. Curio also offers some good advice on the other council members.

===Yngling Half-Troll===
Yngling Half-Troll is in [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]], [[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|St. Olms Canton]] Plaza, Yngling Manor. Similarily he'll ask for 1000 drakes if you're a member, or 2000 otherwise. An alternate route is to actually kill Yngling, which is quite alright with the other council members if you talk to them about it (such as Dram Bero).

===Dram Bero===
Dram Bero is hidden in the basement of the Haunted Manor in the [[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|St. Olms]] Plaza. You may need to unlock the basement door somehow. You just have to talk to him and you'll get his vote, no gold needed. He'll also mention that Velanda and Nevena are loyal to Orvas Dren. Orvas is the brother of the Duke and has a large plantation in the [[Morrowind:Ascadian Isles|Ascadian Isles]] (see below).

===Taking Care of Orvas Dren===
In order to convince Velanda and Nevena, you must take care of Orvas Dren first, which may mean a number of things. You can just kill him but he is well armored and armed and has a few good bodyguards. You can blackmail him if you get some papers locked in his basement (his bodyguard has the key). Or, if you can raise his disposition high enough, you can talk to him about protecting [[Tamriel:Morrowind|Morrowind]], resulting in Dren giving you his vote for Hortator. If you're in [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House Hlaalu]] and you've done the [[Morrowind:Dealing with Orvas Dren|quest]] to take over [[Morrowind:Camonna Tong|Camonna Tong]], Dren should just give it up and say he'll use his influence on his two cronies. Alternatively, if you have a good chameleon and sneaking ability (or invisibility), you can find a key that lays on a desk near Orvas Dren himself, and just take the papers without being seen.

Orvas lives on the [[Morrowind:Dren Plantation|Dren Plantation]], a large sized manor just north of [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]]. If your disposition is low when you try talking to him, he will attack you. If you're lucky you will be able to attack and kill him without alerting the other guards in the house (obviously, this will let you loot the nice stuff on and behind him).

===Talk with Velanda and Nevena===
Once Orvas is taken care of, you can continue and talk to Velanda and Nevena. Velanda is in the [[Morrowind:Omani Manor|Omani Manor]] on Elmas Island (position 58675, -92545, 814, use console command <code>TDT</code>), east of the [[Morrowind:Vivec St Olms|Vivec St. Olms Canton]]. Nevena is in [[Morrowind:Ules Manor|Ules Manor]], (position 45754, -49438, 1114) just west of [[Morrowind:Suran|Suran]] (directly east of the [[Morrowind:Dren Plantation|Dren Plantation]], and north-east of [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]]). The manor is surrounded by slaves... Once you talk to each about the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Horator, they give you their vote.

===Return to Curio===
You can now return to Curio in [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]] to be officially named as [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House Hlaalu]]'s Hortator and receive the [[Morrowind:Artifacts#Belt_of_the_Hortator|Belt of the Hortator]] as proof.

{{Quest Footer|Prev=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Redoran Hortator|Redoran Hortator]]|Next=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Telvanni Hortator|Telvanni Hortator]]|Up=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Main Quest|Main Quest]]}}

Oblivion talk:People

2007-03-08T05:50:46Z

FMan:

==Change to Layout==
I have altered the Skingrad People section, can I get some feedback. [[User:Noone81|Noone81]] 05:00, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

==Two pages?==
It's occurred to me that this page may get somewhat long, especially after I add in the Imperial City. Anyone think that maybe it should be two pages? One for the major cities and another for everyone else? If you think about every inn, small village, all the Daedric shrine worshippers, and then just all the other assorted people you can meet other places, you're looking at easily twice the number of people found in the major cities alone. I've already decided that people with generic names (guards, couriers, bandits, necromancers, vampires, etc.) will not be included here. Half of those are already covered on the [[Oblivion:Creatures]] page anyhow. But I'm thinking that it may make sense to seperate the city folk from the country folk, just to maintain a manageable page-size... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 23:38, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

:I guess what your doing now is dividing the page into parts and transcluding them from places like [[Oblivion:Bruma People]]. I recommend moving these pages under the article as sub pages. -[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 14:36, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

::Well, [[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03tx]] is the one doing that. But yeah, I assume the point of that is so that this page will always be consistant with the pages on the individual city pages. So, everything here should be replaced with transcludes from the seperated City People pages. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 16:13, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

==Notes on Who's Included and Locations==
I just made these lists by checking each of the major cities' faction usage in the Construction Set. So some names appear in more than one city. Maglir in the Fighters Guild is listed in three cities, and Alval Uvani seems to be in all of them. (I haven't played enough of the game yet to have figured this out, but does anybody know who he is and why he's in every city?) Also, if anyone is a resident of a city and not in that city's faction for some reason, they won't be listed. I know for one that this means that all of the residents of the Dark Brotherhood hideout in Cheydinhal are not listed. Also, I left out certain faction affiliations if they seemed too minor to include. Only other faction I'm not sure about is the Mythic Dawn faction. There seemed to be 1 or 2 in every city, but perhaps by listing them here, it might be too spoiler-ish? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 01:16, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:I think Alval Uvani might be the really unfriendly character who pops up in alot of places (I've seen him travelling the main roads as well as in cities), but I'm not completely sure. I'll keep my eyes open for him (although having just become a vampire, my character might not be spending much time in cities in the near future...). Makes sense I suppose that Maglir would pop up in three cities: he does have quest roles in all three places. We could probably get away with just having listed under Skingrad, since that's where you'll first meet him. I'd vote for listing the Mythic Dawns here under the 'other' category: they are normal NPCs until you get far enough in the main quest.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:24, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
::Well, all the Mythic Dawn people are in 'other' right now. When I realized they look just like regular people until later on, I decided to leave them alone. As for Maglir, I was considering including him in the Blackwood Company faction in Leyawiin instead of the Fighters Guild, since I know he switches over, but that might be spoilerish too. Might be best just to leave him where he is. (Looking at the Imperial City list, there's a LOT of people listed there that are also in other cities. I don't think it's a real problem for people to be listed in more than one location if they move around during the game.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 01:16, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:: Re: Alval Uvani - I just got to the quest he's involved in. If you're curious (and this doesn't spoil the quest), he's a travelling tradesman from Morrowind, who has business in a few of Cyrodiil's cities. He does have a house in Leyawiin, though. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]]
Here's how I'm handling duplicates - the final arbiter is what I encounter in-game. So if I see someone has a house in Imperial City, then I'll list them under Imperial City and delete all other references. Like Rochelle and Samuel Bantien, who have in IC Talos Plaza. Now, Rochelle visits people in Cheydinhal, but Samuel I've never seen outside IC. Rochelle has both IC and Cheydinhal in the Construction Set factions, and Samuel has Bravil listed in addition to IC! Since their house is in IC, I put them only under Imperial City. For a few NPCs this may be problematic. For example, the Jermane brothers move about, a couple of times. I think they should be listed only once, under the place they live at the beginning of the game. On someone's individual page all notable information should be included, but the People page should be kept to simpler standards. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:10 +0400

:Multiple listings is good. If I can walk into that city and see that pearson I'd like to have a link under that city. Think about usablity of the site. Someone playing the game sees the NPC in a city and goes to the page to find out more info. They don't know what city they have a house in. Of course they would probably use the search functionality. But, none the less a listing in every place the NPC is associated with works the best in my mind.. -- [[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 20 Jul 2006

::My main counterargument is that some of the NPCs only change cites after you've done quests relating to them: Maglir, for example, will sit in the West Weald Inn in Skingrad forever unless you start the Fighters Guild quests. Reynald Jemane will be a drunk in Chorrol until you start his quest. And presumably once you start in those quests, you won't be needing to look up those characters any more, so does it really make sense to have multiple listings? To some extent, I'm playing devil's advocate here: I don't have a clear preference myself, so I'm just repeating some of the arguments that go around in my head.

::On the other hand, I do tend to agree with your point for characters who independent of your actions drift from city to city (I remember a month ago or more, i.e. before this page started to get put together, running into a trainer NPC in Skingrad, and then losing track of him. Turns out he actually lives somewhere like the Talos Plaza district. Correction: using the Skingrad listings I was able to find him again: it was Othrelos who has a house in the Elven Gardens; I never could have ID'd him if he was only listed under Imperial City). Perhaps it makes sense to have a category "citizens" for people who live in whichever city, and then a category "visitors" for people who might pop occasionally pop up there. Going back to devil's advocate mode, the problem is then figuring out (a) where someone lives (b) who the visitors are and (c) who only moves around because of quests. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 12:34, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

::A "Visitors" column might not be a bad idea. Also, presumably at some point each NPC who moves around like that will have their own page, and the details of what makes them move (whether just visiting or moving for quest-related reasons) will be listed there. For the most part, each NPC is listed as initially existing in only one location, and that's what I'm using for now.

::There are a couple who exist in multiple locations, as well as some people who are represented by more than one actual NPC entry in the CS. (For example, the Gray Fox is actually not 1 but 3 NPCs as far as the CS is concerned. But as far as the player is concerned, he's only one person. So this is an unusual case.)

::Other NPCs have an "alive" and a "dead" version which are seperate NPCs. (Some residents of Bruma, for example.) I'm actually considering removing any NPCs who are already dead the first time you encounter them. There's a bunch of them there in the "Other" category right now. However, it may be important to know where to find them, so I'm not sure that getting rid of them is the best idea. I could put some sort of note to indicate that they're dead, (maybe a skull+crossbones, similar to the service icons) though in some cases that could be considered a spoiler. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 13:56, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

:::On the subject of what is considered a spoiler, there is a complaint at [[Oblivion Talk:Cheydinhal]] about being told someone was going to die, so might be best to be cautious with the dead folks. Also, I've initiated a discussion of spoilers at [[Template:Spoiler]] if anyone has thoughts on what constitutes a spoiler.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:08, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

::::That complaint is rather old. You'll notice that it's no longer valid, too, as I fixed the problem weeks ago when I replaced the short list of Cheydinhal residents with the chart from the [[Oblivion:People]] page. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 22:13, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

==Service Icons==
I was thinking about instead of just using italics to designate service providers, we could whip up some nice little icons that appear next to the name for each of the services, so you know whether they sell goods, spells, repairs, or training without having to go to their page. Services would include:
*Merchant - this might not need its own tag
**Food '''Ψ''' (a fork)
**Ingredients '''Δ''' (a pile of some sort of salts)
**Weapons '''†''' (a sword)
**Armor '''Θ''' (a shield)
**Clothing '''η''' (draped cloth)
**Potions '''θ''' (a pill)
**Books '''β''' (beta for book)
**Miscellaneous '''π''' (a table, i.e. tableware)
**Thieves Fence '''$''' (dollar-sign)
*Training '''Ω''' (a person's head, getting trained?)
*Spells '''ő''' (an eye, like the Mages Guild symbol)
*Repair '''φ''' (an hammer?)
*Recharging '''Į''' (a staff, typical item you might recharge)
*Innkeep '''δ''' (a hanging placard?)
*House sale/upgrades '''Π''' (a door)
*Horses '''ħ''' (a horse looking over its shoulder - also looks like a letter 'h')
More if I think of them...
--[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 23:52, 5 July 2006 (EDT)
:Icons would be really useful, although I think trying to get as detailed as which skill is trained or which spell schools are sold would get really tough. Take Calindil, for example, you'd need icons for ingredients, potions, and icons for all six spell schools, which would add up to quite a handful. And there are separate pages that list all the trainers and all the spell merchants, so if someone needs info at that level, they could use those pages. One question on the categories: would ingredients also cover alchemy equipment?--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:33, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
::Yeah, I guess that extra stuff isn't needed, if the info is on their main page. Might still want a special icon for the master-trainers as opposed to regular trainers, though, just because they're more important. As for alchemy equipment, I don't think a seperate indicator is needed. You'll basically buy that kind of thing once every 5 levels or so, and if you know where the ingredients and potions are, you can probably find it pretty easily. I might consider an icon for Lockpicks, though, as they're very good to have a large supply of, and not too many people sell them. Now the only real problem is - I don't know how to go about implementing an icon system. I can make the graphics easily enough. But uploading the images and making some sort of template to display them next to the names is a bit beyond my wiki-skills at this time. I'm thinking some sort of ASCII art might suffice until then? (Find some Greek letters or mathematical symbols or what-not that look like the appropriate icons needed that will display on standard browsers... Might have to test that.) Anyhow, here's a list of special characters that will display, courtesy of Wikipedia: (I added some suggestions above.)

*Á á Ć ć É é Í í Ĺ ĺ Ń ń Ó ó Ŕ ŕ Ś ś Ú ú Ý ý Ź ź À à È è Ì ì Ò ò Ù ù Â â Ĉ ĉ Ê ê Ĝ ĝ Ĥ ĥ Î î Ĵ ĵ Ô ô Ŝ ŝ Û û Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ Ä ä Ë ë Ï ï Ö ö Ü ü Ÿ ÿ ß Ã ã Ẽ ẽ Ĩ ĩ Ñ ñ Õ õ Ũ ũ Ỹ ỹ Ç ç Ģ ģ Ķ ķ Ļ ļ Ņ ņ Ŗ ŗ Ş ş Ţ ţ Đ đ Ů ů Ǎ ǎ Č č Ď ď Ě ě Ǐ ǐ Ľ ľ Ň ň Ǒ ǒ Ř ř Š š Ť ť Ǔ ǔ Ž ž Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ ǖ ǘ ǚ ǜ Ă ă Ĕ ĕ Ğ ğ Ĭ ĭ Ŏ ŏ Ŭ ŭ Ċ ċ Ė ė Ġ ġ İ ı Ż ż Ą ą Ę ę Į į Ǫ ǫ Ų ų Ł ł Ő ő Ű ű Ŀ ŀ Ħ ħ Ð ð Þ þ Œ œ Æ æ Ø ø Å å Ə ə 
*Greek: Α α Β β Γ γ Δ δ Ε ε Ζ ζ Η η Θ θ Ι ι Κ κ Λ λ Μ μ Ν ν Ξ ξ Ο ο Π π Ρ ρ Σ σ ς Τ τ Υ υ Φ φ Χ χ Ψ ψ Ω ω • 
*IPA: ʈ ɖ ɟ ɡ ɢ ʡ ʔ ɸ ʃ ʒ ɕ ʑ ʂ ʐ ʝ ɣ ʁ ʕ ʜ ʢ ɦ ɱ ɳ ɲ ŋ ɴ ʋ ɹ ɻ ɰ ʙ ʀ ɾ ɽ ɫ ɬ ɮ ɺ ɭ ʎ ʟ ɥ ʍ ɧ ɓ ɗ ʄ ɠ ʛ ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ ɨ ʉ ɯ ɪ ʏ ʊ ɘ ɵ ɤ ɚ ɛ ɜ ɝ ɞ ʌ ɔ ɐ ɶ ɑ ɒ ʰ ʷ ʲ ˠ ˤ ⁿ ˡ ˈ ˌ ː ˑ • 
*Symbols: ~ | ¡ ¿ † ‡ ↔ ↑ ↓ • # ¹ ² ³ ½ ⅓ ⅔ ¼ ¾ ⅛ ⅜ ⅝ ⅞ ‘ “ ’ ” ¢ $ € £ ¥
--[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 01:11, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:::Using characters seems like a workable interim solution. Unfortunately IE doesn't seem to want to display a bunch of those characters; they just come out as empty squares. The missing ones include almost all the IPA characters (exceptions: ŋ ⁿ), and the following ones: Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ Ǫ ǫ. My IE is pretty up-to-date, so I think to make these icons useful for a good number of readers, those characters have to be avoided. And that includes a few you've proposed (books, spells, repair, recharging, innkeep, horses).--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 02:11, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
::::Alright, I changed the ones you mentionned. How's this?--[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 07:50, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
Seeing the icons in action makes them seem a bit overwhelming. I was wondering if there are some ways to simplify things a bit.
* Should there be a symbol that means miscellaneous goods? My impression is that there are alot of merchants who sell a bit of just about anything, so introducing a single symbol that can be used instead of "†ΘηΨΔθβπ" on all those merchants might enhance readability. Maybe euro '''€''' for "everything"?
:Yeah, I was thinking there were a lot of "everything" merchants. I guess the '''€''' works for that. (Also less US-centric, since I chose the '''$''' as the Thieves Guild fence symbol.)
* Does every one who sells ingredients also sell food? Is then necessary to always list ingredients+food? Couldn't just '''Δ''' be used for those merchants, with the food part being implicit?
:Makes sense. Problem is it's actually kind of hard from the Construction set to tell who sells ingredients and who sells just food. (Any merchant who sells food will still ''buy'' any kinds of ingredients, food or otherwise.) Also difficult to figure out are those that make dialogue-based sales, such as the people that sell you horses, houses, and rooms at inns.
* Are there many merchants who sell only one of weapons/armor? There may be a few (i.e., Maro Rufus and Varnado) but those details can always be provided on their specific NPC pages. So could a single symbol be used to mean weapons and/or armor?
Since these symbols aren't the only way of conveying information, they don't necessarily have to be precise: details can always be given on the individual NPC's page.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:08, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:There are definitely people who sell weapons and not armor, and vice versa. This is another complication, however, as I'm pretty sure that in most cases, even if a merchant only ''sells'' weapons, they will still ''buy'' armor, and thus both are checked in their settings in the Construction Set. However, I think using that Euro-symbol might make things a bit less cluttered.

:Now, one other thing I wonder - is it possible in wiki to make text that will cause a tooltip to appear under the cursor when you roll the mouse over it? It would definitely be nice if when rolling over a symbol, a little tip appeared telling you what it meant. (Of course I'll be adding a key later, but this would still help.) Alternatively, if they were images, the image can have an alternate-text that appears automatically. But I'll still have to figure out how to get images in there. (Probably spend some time this weekend doing that maybe.) Anyhow, I'll make these changes and see how it looks. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 22:21, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

Agh. These icons are a frikkin' pain. Since my keyboard isn't equipped to type them, I have to copy/paste from Word every single little symbol, one by one. (Can't even use Notepad, because they just show up as ???.) I've done Anvil and Bravil, but I think I'm going to give it a rest until we get those graphic icons implemented, this is just too much tediousness, even for me. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 00:07, 7 July 2006 (EDT)
:If you're contemplating tackling this again, you could try typing the names of all the symbols, i.e. '''Ω''', '''Θ''', '''π''', '''φ''', '''Δ''', '''δ''', '''€''', '''Ψ''', '''Π'''. It takes a few keystrokes, but might be less irritating than cutting and pasting.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:43, 7 July 2006 (EDT)
:OK, how to get the text to appear instead of being converted to symbols is beyond me at the moment, but if you look at this section in the editor, you can easily what the text is.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:46, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

I don't find the greek characters readable at all - especially without a legend on the same page! Plus, some of them look very similar to one another: capital psi '''Ψ''' and lowercase phi '''φ''' may be confused. I'd suggest using plain old latin letters and very generalized categories - M for merchant, S for spells, T for trainer, R for repair, C for (re)charging, H for horses, and F for fence. Maybe also I for innkeep, B for buy a house, and Q for quests (as in, you can get a new quest from this person, not just that they're involved in one).

Then you could have a simple, alphabetically ordered list, and don't have to worry about whether someone's weird browser will draw actual greek letters, or some off-the-wall character, or a box with numbers in it, or what have you. Suggest that people click through to the NPC's individual page for more detail: i.e. such and such person sells only food and beverages, so you can only sell to them in "potions" and "ingredients" categories. This would also be more readable because there's less information to assimilate in a single gulp - the max length here would be three or four characters, as opposed to having eight or ten chars after a name!
:P.S. Nephele: &amp; is the code for ampersand, so you want to type "&amp;Omega;" in the editor to get "&Omega;" on the web page. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] 10:30, 16 Jul 2006 GMT
::Yeah, those symbols were an experiment, and as far as I'm concerned, a failed one. (Which is why I didn't implement it for more than the first two cities.) I don't know that your method would be much better, however. You'd get people confused over whether H meant houses or horses, R for repair or recharge, etc. More and more, I'm convinced that graphic-based icons are the way to go. Easily recognizable, and they'd have the advantage that by rolling the mouse over them, you'd get a tooltip saying what it meant, so you almost wouldn't need a key. (There'd still be one, of course.) I'm going to look into what's involved in uploading some small images for the purpose. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 11:09, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

===Images for services===
OK, I've uploaded some icons: [[Image:Merchanticon_small.png|Merchant]] [[Image:Spellsicon_small.png|Spells]] [[Image:Rechargeicon_small.png|Recharge]] [[Image:Repairicon_small.png|Repair]] [[Image:Trainicon_small.png|Train]] [[Image:Fenceicon_small.png|Fence]] [[Image:Sleepicon_small.png|Sleep]] [[Image:Dooricon_small.png|Door]] [[Image:Horseicon_small.png|Horse]] I've redone Anvil's list, removing the italics since they should no longer be necessary. What do y'all think? The only one I don't quite like is the fence icon - the red hand looks better in the game than on a bright white background, I think. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] 5:15, 16 Jul 2006 PDT
:Those are great! I have one suggestion. Why not change the alt-text to give more information? So you could have [[Image:Trainicon_small.png|Alchemy]] to indicate that this person trains Alchemy, [[Image:Merchanticon_small.png|Ingredients]] to indicate that this person sells ingredients, so you can quickly roll over the icons and get the info without having to go to their page? (Also would be nice if we could somehow sneak in a template to make the formatting easier to input, but this may be fine.) Oh, one more we need would be for horses. I think the horseshoe icon would be perfect for that. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 21:04, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
::I think using the game's icons is definitely the easiest way to present this info, since everyone will immediately recognize what is meant by the icon. I agree that the red hand stands out, especially since the other icons are all brown, but I think it does make sense as the "fencing" icon. I just experimented with adding to the tooltip text: so instead of just saying "Train", I filled in exactly what type of training each person offers. The same could be done with merchants, so that the icons can actually provide a fair bit of additional info. But I wonder if having the icons all right-aligned would look neater?--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:16, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
::Great minds think alike: at the same time that you were adding your comment, I was doing it: the trainers' tooltip text has already been expanded!--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:18, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
:::Great minds edit alike too. While you were doing that, I was working on doing the same for Bravil... (Glad I chose to go for the second one on that, still had to do the merge afterwards. I'm thinking one at a time is better here...) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 21:29, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
:: Yes, I totally forgot horses when doing these. Well, now a horseshoe icon has been added: [[Image:Horseicon_small.png|Horse]] -- [[User:marbx|marbx]]
:::Great. Now just to enter these in for the rest of them... One more thing. Do we want to have icons for people who start or are involved in quests? Not sure what you'd use for that. Maybe a picture of an open book, like what you see when you're looking at a book? Or maybe the cup icon like they use for inns - that'd be good because a cup is used for quests on your quest menu. Only problem is people might misinterpret it to think they're an innkeeper, though I think the Sleep icon is obvious enough that there wouldn't be a problem. Maybe even use both - the book for quest starters and the cup for people involved in quests. The tooltip would give the name of the quest. Even better if we could make it so clicking on the icon takes you right to the quest page, though I'm not sure if that's possible. Anyhow, just a few thoughts I had. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 00:58, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
:::: I think that's reaching too far - keeping track of who lives where, and who sells what is probably enough info for this page. Isn't it big enough as is? :) Plus, revealing who's involved in which quests definitely goes into spoiler territory. Spoilers should not be on as general a page as "people." BTW, I've been checking some of these people out in-game, and some of the names in italics do not appear to actually sell or train anything. I know some trainers need to be "unlocked" (but I don't think any sellers do, save fences), so is there a better way to verify that these people are actually merchants of some sort? -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] 12:27 17 Jul 2006 CDT
:::::When I originally made this chart, I basically checked each NPC's Services tab in the Construction Set, and if ANY of the boxes was checked, I italicized them. Later, somebody, I think Nephele, created pages for all the merchants, based on the Merchants page, and linked them. Odds are, if a name is in italics and they don't have their own page, they're probably a trainer. If you can't get services from them now, it's likely they're either locked, or there's something else funky going on. (See [[Oblivion:Trevaia|Trevaia]]. We still can't figure out what's going on with her.) With the addition of these icons (and noticing that I missed a few in Anvil), I'm thinking of moving those back into the Other column, leaving the Merchants column for just people that have a commercial establishment - a shop, an inn, a tavern, etc. Was even considering adding the name of the shop somehow, which would make them easier to find in many cases. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 09:12, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
::::Try {{[[Template:Clickpic|Clickpic]]}}. <code><nowiki>{{clickpic|Oblivion:Escape From Prison|http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Dooricon_small.png}}</nowiki></code> turns into {{clickpic|Oblivion:Escape From Prison|http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Dooricon_small.png}}. The URL alt text could probably be overruled via a simple CSS tweak. Because of server configuration I wasn't able to make it as simple as Dooricon_small.png. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]][[User talk:Garrett|Talk]] 01:36, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
:::::Well, if you figure out how to simplify this, and make the alt-text work, we may implement it, but then I do see marbx's point about how quest linking might be spoiler-ish. Not to mention a lot of work. Heh. I think we can just do with what we have for now. Maybe that can be added later if enough people want it. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 09:12, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

You've probably noticed that I added color-coded icons for Basic/Advanced/Master Trainers. I've left the original yellow icon in there for special cases where the trainer does not fit one of those three categories. Right now there are only two, Trayvond the Redguard, and Hauls-Ropes-Faster, both of whom seem to offer training, but so far nobody has figured out how. (Probably a bug in both cases.) I'm also considering using this icon for people who train your skills in other ways, such as a one-time quest reward, or from watching them sparring like those two in the Arena and the Cloud Ruler Temple. Maybe even people who give you a skill book as a quest reward. Sound like a plan? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:26, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

:I'm not sure about lumping in some of the rewards with training, especially with the icons where there's so little info. It's just that the rewards are slightly different from regular training (you can only get it once, it doesn't count to your five/level limit, etc) and I'm worried about misleading/confusing people who are scanning through this list.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:17, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

::Yes, but if you consider that the yellow icons now NEVER refer to regular training, since I've changed all the regular trainers to green, blue, or red, these would still be easily distinguishable. Plus I can just put a little "(see note)" on the alt-text to explain it further. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 14:45, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

== Content of NPC pages ==
As more and more pages for individual NPCs get filled in, I think it may be useful to establish what the content/style should be of those pages. Just like with the place pages and quest pages, establish what info should be on the pages, and some sort of layout so people can easily find that info.

What I've been drifting towards is:
* Crumb trail!
* Intro section: gender, race, where the person lives, what guild they are in, any relatives, whether they are killable (quest-critical)
* If they move around, details as available on where they pop up and when (I know some NPCs have a travel schedule, specific days of the month/week where they go to specific places)
* <nowiki>==Services==</nowiki> section (only required for NPCs who provide any services)
** The times during which they provide services, and location(s) that they need to be in.
** If they are a merchant: mercantile skill, gold, goods they buy/sell, any unique items, beds, horses, etc.
** If they are a spell merchant: provide table at bottom of page with spells
** If they are a trainer: what skill they train, and at what level (and follow Lurlock's attempts to standardize the terms: basic, advanced, master)
** List any other services (repair, recharging)
* <nowiki>==Quests==</nowiki> section (only required for NPCs who appear in any quests)
** specify quests for which they are quest-providers
** specify quests in which they play a role (and I've been erring on the generous side there, i.e. [[Oblivion:Carahil]] who just gets mentioned in a journal in one quest)

Definitely these are ideas in progress. I've tried to implement them on [[Oblivion:Maglir]]'s and [[Oblivion:Carahil]]'s pages. Any other thoughts?

--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:03, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

A thought I had was to add categories for each of the 10 (11 if you count Dremora) races in the game. So at the bottom of each NPC page would be a category listing, and if you wanted to find a list of all Argonians in the game, it would be on its own page. Helpful when somebody is trying to remember which Orc it was they saw somewhere, having forgotten his name... (I can never remember Orc names. Khajiits are kind of tough too.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:14, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

I'm new to this and I edited [[Oblivion:Daenlin]] before I found this section, while what I did is very amaturish, can people say if it points in the "right" direction. I have an opinion we need a "Oblivion:People" template. It should look like a Wikipedia bio. that is box on right side of screen with stanardized information in it. [[User:Noone81|Noone81]] 01:24, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

:Yes, I could see having some type of standard infobox for the NPC pages. I'd guess it would probably be larger than the Wikipedia bio boxes (mainly because some NPCs wouldn't have too much on their page other than what's in the infobox). It would be very possible to incorporate the merchant table into such an infobox, and have it only show up on merchant pages. I'd say it's probably easiest to proceed by continuing what you've been doing: pick a couple NPC pages, and experiment with how to layout the information. I don't have any more concrete suggestions at the moment (in part because I'm getting sleepy), but I'll think about it some more overnight. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 03:13, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

== Other People ==

Well, I tore apart the "Other" section, and put every location with more than 1 named NPC in it into the "Other Locations" section. Not sure if I should go ahead and do that for the rest of them. Currently, every NPC still listed in the big "Other" list is the only named NPC in their location. I was thinking of treating these differently, creating a list of these people, alphabetically by name, with their location immediately after, e.g.:

*[[Oblivion:Arkved|Arkved]] - [[Oblivion:Arkved's Tower|Arkved's Tower]]
*[[Oblivion:Azani Blackheart (person)|Azani Blackheart]] - [[Oblivion:Atatar|Atatar]]
etc.

Maybe in 2 or 3 columns to save space.

Arguably, that could be spoilerish, but then, a lot of what's on this page could be. It'd be more informative than the info-dump list that's there right now. Any thoughts? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:06, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

:I was amazed to see how much you've whittled down that list. I think a list like you're talking about would work; it would make the list seem a bit less like the leftovers. I'm not sure if one or two more names could be stuffed in elsewhere. I moved Corrick Northwode up to small towns (Harm's Folly seems as much a small town as Drakelowe... both one house with one person). Also, I'm pretty sure Fithragaer is part of the Skingrad Mage's Guild. The only hitch is that he starts the game stuck in a cave outside of Skingrad (there's a quest to rescue him and return him to the guild). In a case like that, should he just get added to Skingrad instead of the miscellaneous list? Raven Camoran lives in the Imperial City, except he's under it (Sunken Sewers)... perhaps stick him in the others there?
:But there's definitely a bunch that will never have any other good places to go (poor dead Agnar, his body rotting on a mountainside). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:12, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

::You're thinking of Erthor, not Fithragaer. Erthor is already listed in Skingrad, even though that's not where you find him. I considered not putting him in there, since after the quest where you rescure him, he just goes back to the cave again later. But he is still a member of the guild there, and I think having him seperated into some obscure cave away from everyone else isn't quite fair. Good catch on Harm's Folly, I missed that one. As for Raven Camoran, I was being a little bit careful with those, since I know they're major Main Quest characters, but I haven't played enough of the Main Quest to be able to say much about them. (I was iffy about putting Mankar and Ruma Camoran as well, but since they appeared all in one cell, along with Harrow, I opted to include them.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 14:42, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

== Martin ==
He is listed here in Kavatch where he first apears. But he is listed as "Brother Martin". And the page of course also is dead link to Oblivion:Borther Martin. I don't think this is quite right. It seems ok to list him at Kavatch, but he certainly isn't a "Brother" anymore after the kvatch quests, and that happens pretty early on in the game. Linking to his name on the final quest It would seem weird to link to "Brother Martin". I mean in the first quest for the mian sotry you find out his true identity I don't think it really counts as a spoiler. --[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]]

:In cases where a character's name or location changes, I've generally been using the first name and location that you encounter. (Another reason I'm considering getting rid of the Corvus Umbranox page.) True, this one's not nearly as much of a spoiler, his name in the game appears as "Brother Martin" in the CS, and thus in the game. I don't think there is an NPC in the game called just "Martin". (At work, can't check here.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 15:04, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

::There isn't. Let's just call him "Martin", and have "Brother Martin" and "Martin Septim" direct to him. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 15:49, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

== Sub pages ==
It seems we are also including these tables in the pages for the cities. We might consider making a sub page Oblivion:Anvil_People that we simply include here and in the Oblivion:Anvil page. That way we don't have two versions of the table to keep in sync. If no one objects I might start doing this tomorrow.--[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 27 July
:I'm pretty much always in favour of consolidating any identical, repeated information to a single place and then transcluding it everywhere it's needed. As you say, there's less work whenever a change needs to be made. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:06, 27 July 2006 (EDT)
:The problem with doing that is if you need to make a change to something that's inbetween what the template covers, you can't without modifing the template and the pages that the template uses. Also, templates in overdose scare away newcomers. All I ask is to use moderation. Don't put everything in one big template, maybe divide off the templates. Take the bread crumb trails out of the template. Let there be room for simple modification. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 18:31, 27 July 2006 (EDT)
::I did Bravil and Anvil. All I did was move them to their own page and translude them. I didn't create a template or anything. Anyway I noticed that both the Bravil and Anvil city pages had out of date NPC tables so I think this going to be better overall. Let me know what you think, or how to do it better --[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 28 July 2006

::Finished the magor towns, as it is quick work. I'll leave it as is, to give time for comments and objections. Then I'll do the small towns and the Imperial City Districts. --[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 28 July 2006

== Ugal wont go away! ==

I was changing all the links to Ugal Belette to Eugal Belette, but on the [[Oblivion:People|People]] page, I can't seem to change it. When I edit the Chorrol section, it shows it linking to Eugal Belette, but on the page itself, it goes to Ugal Belette.

:Fixed. One problem with transclude pages is that any page they're included on is not refreshed until you make a change in the main page itself. Ran into this quite a lot on the Skill Books section. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 22:31, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

:You can fix it without having to edit the page by clicking on this link: [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:People&action=purge]. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 02:42, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

::Thanks - Is there an easier way to make that happen on other pages without typing everyhing in? This is a feature I can anticipate much need for, but I don't see any link anywhere that will do it... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 10:28, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

:::Click on "edit" on the page you want to purge, then replace "action=edit" with "action=purge". I usually make this change by double-clicking to the right of the URL, which will highlight the word "edit". --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 10:33, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

::::Cool. Didn't work where I wanted it to, unfortunately. (The Oblivion-NPCs category.) I guess it doesn't work on categories, but... Nope. Doesn't work if you purge members in the category either. Was thinking that'd be easier than having to arbitrarily edit each one to get them out of the 'O' category. But no such luck. I'm sure this will be useful somewhere, but not in this case. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:28, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

::::: That "O" glitch is wierd, and purge doesn't seem to fix those pages. Purge simply refreshes a page's catch. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 12:44, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

It seems to me like purge doesn't work with any of the "special" (automatically generated) pages; they only respond to real edits. There are two other examples that have been bugging me lately.
* On [[Special:Wantedpages|Wantedpages]] it claims that a bunch of Tamriel:People pages are wanted. So I edited [[Template:Tamriel People]], that was the source of these "wanted" pages. Voila, [[Tamriel:People B]] no longer has any red links at the top. But no change to the WantedPages list, even if I purge the page.
* On [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Oblivion:Magical_Effects]] there are a bunch of pages that do not have any links (any more) to [[Oblivion:Magical_Effects]]. For example, [[Oblivion:Spell List Notes]] used to have a couple of links to [[Oblivion:Magical Effects]]. I fixed those links, then went through '''all''' the pages that transclude [[Oblivion:Spell List Notes]] (i.e., all the NPC pages listed on whatlinkshere) and purged them. So [[Oblivion:Trevaia]] no longer has any links to [[Oblivion:Magical Effects]], but she's still listed on whatlinkshere. There's at least 100+ other pages on that whatlinkshere page that don't link there any more (because of changes to a template), but I can't figure out how to get whatlinkshere to update (so I can easily track down a handful of links that probably need to be fixed).
I'm basically in a holding pattern on these, partly hoping that if Daveh upgrades the wiki sometime in the not-too-distant future, maybe an upgrade will fix this problem. Unless anyone has any suggestions in the meantime...--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:14, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

== Do Test NPCs need their own articles? ==

As the Test NPCs don't appear in-game at all, ever, and therefore aren't very interesting, I move that we keep the list of names here for interest but remove the links to non-existent pages. I will do so for now and if the consensus goes against me, we can revert it. --[[User:Actreal|Actreal]] 03:22, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
:I agree--[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 09:17, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

== Hauls-Ropes-Faster Fixed in Patch ==

Just checked, and it appears Hauls-Ropes-Faster is able to train after the patch. I successfully found him willing to train in the Foc's'l, but only while he's downstairs. I'm about to update the page to reflect this. I'll also look on the Trainer page to see if that needs updating.

[[User:StarliteLemming|StarliteLemming]] 00:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)

== NPC Pages ==

There's been talk on and off for a while about trying to create some type of infobox for the NPC pages. Most recently, [[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] brought it up at [[Oblivion Talk:Rohssan]]. In response to that, I put together a sandbox version of an infobox at [[User:Nephele/Sandbox/2]].

If we are contemplating going through and revamping most of the NPC pages, it seems like it's worth doublechecking what info people would like to see added to the pages, and in particular what info should be included in an infobox. Looking through the various NPC statistics there are a few ideas that crossed my mind:
* responsibility
* level
* health
* essential?
* follower?
* factions
* class (I've already added this to the current sandbox version, but thought I should bring it up for discussion while I'm at it)
Does anyone think some or all of these would be worth including on most NPC pages? Or are there other useful statistics I've overlooked?

As for the logistics of doing it, I was thinking of doing an info-dump from the construction set with a lot of the other information needed for the new infoboxes, all properly formatted, etc. I'd probably post it in one of my sandboxes so anyone who's interested in updating NPC pages can easily cut and paste the info. Adding in a few more statistics to the dump is trivial. In other words, as long as we decide ahead of time what we want, there's no additional work to add one statistic or twenty statistics.

Any feedback on any of these ideas? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 17:48, 7 March 2007 (EST)
:Looks good so far! definitely think everything you listed should go in there, maybe Aggression too? [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 17:56, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:Mind if I take a crack at compacting some of the design a bit? Seems a lot of things are given a full row for something that will never be more than one word. Kind of wastes space. Another idea that occurred to me just now was the possibility of color-coding the charts like we did on the Magic Effects. I've got a color-scheme for races already as seen on [[Tamriel:Demographics]], which could work. It could even be programmed to choose the color automatically via a template like Magic Effects used. (Though that would be for you to do - I'm great with charts but still only so-so with intricate template coding.) I'm going to see what I can do to streamline this chart a bit. Meet me at [[User:TheRealLurlock/Sandbox_III|Camera Three]] in a few minutes... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 18:02, 7 March 2007 (EST)
:I've almost got it - the one thing that's bugging me is that the [[Template:Navimg]] template insists on creating a new line for its image. Is there any way to fix that? I can't quite figure what's going on there... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 18:21, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::Yep, color-coding the boxes according to race would definitely be doable... especially if you could give me the codes for the colours you chose on the demographics page. And I can see compacting the table some. But I think I'd prefer to spell out what the training skill and level are, and what the services are... although the icons make great sense on a table of all the NPCs, I don't think space is at such a premium on the NPC pages that we need to force readers to learn the icons and/or hover over the icons to find out what they mean. I figured adding the icons adds some decoration to the table, and helps people who are pretty familiar with them, but I'd prefer not to rely on them as the only source of information here. Oh, and she's level 10, BTW ;)
::Jadrax: consider aggression added to the list :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 18:22, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:::Colors:
:::{|class=wikitable
!Race!!Color
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Altmer}}}}
|'''Altmer'''||#dfbe00
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Argonian}}}}
|'''Argonian'''||#86ac01
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Wood Elf}}}}
|{{FC|white|'''Bosmer'''}}||{{FC|white|#847000}}
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Bretons}}}}
|{{FC|white|'''Breton'''}}||{{FC|white|#993365}}
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|[[Oblivion:Dunmer|Dunmer]]}}}}
|'''Dunmer'''||#848484
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|imperials}}}}
|{{FC|white|'''Imperial'''}}||{{FC|white|#0000ae}}
|-{{BG|#f39a00}}
|'''Khajiit'''||#f39a00
|-{{BG|#00ffff}}
|'''Nord'''||#00ffff
|-{{BG|#118500}}
|{{FC|white|'''Orc'''}}||{{FC|white|#118500}}
|-{{BG|#841a1a}}
|{{FC|white|'''Redguard'''}}||{{FC|white|#841a1a}}
|}

:::One problem is that some of the colors are too dark to read against, so I had to change the text to white. Not sure how easy that is to template, but I'll bet you can do it. As for the icons, I'm trying to make them into navimg's, with rollover text in case you don't know what the icons mean. That's some more template work to get that to happen, though. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 18:52, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::::I suggest trying to implement the schedule for the NPC into the table. It probably won't fit, but we could even put the times the Npc's home (if they have a home). --[[User:67.142.130.47|67.142.130.47]] 19:14, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:::::I agree trying to document each NPC's schedule better would be a good addition to the pages. But I don't think trying to squeeze the schedules into an infobox makes sense, because for some NPCs they can get somewhat complicated (one day/month travel to another town, when at home visit three different inns, go to the marketplace on Sunday, etc.)
:::::I've updated my [[User:Nephele/Sandbox/2|sandbox]] with most of Lurlock's ideas, but not quite all ;) Unless we want to make the infobox fill the entire width of the page, I don't think it should try to contain all the information.
:::::*Moving the quests in particular seems to require dropping useful information (i.e., the quest description), so I'd rather keep them out of the box and have more info.
:::::*Adding a picture to the box pushes the useful info fairly far down the page (off the page for most readers). And I know there are some NPC photos (e.g., [[Oblivion:Dar-Ma|Dar-Ma]]) that are super-tall and therefore will be much worse.
:::::*It also seems that trying to squeeze the "training" and "other services" into half of a column requires losing some information, so I'd prefer to keep those full width. Also, there will be NPCs who offer training, but no other services, or vice versa. And there will be NPCs who sell spells, which I was anticipating being another section listed under services. So it's easier to deal with all that variability if each of those sections is full-width.
:::::*I've added the other suggested statistics at the bottom of the box.
:::::So, any preferences from anyone else on some of the design details where Lurlock and I differ? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 19:36, 7 March 2007 (EST)
::::::Yeah, I was a bit iffy on the picture. I actually did find one Oblivion female redguard, but she had a tall vertical picture as well, so I opted not to use it. Personally, I think we should just stick to head-shots for all the NPC pictures, but try convincing everybody who ever uploads a picture to keep to that. As for the spell-merchants, I realized fairly quickly that this template won't work for them. I'd suggest keeping the spell-charts the way they are, on the left, beside the sidebar. It fits in with the text, and it's not generally wide enough that they'd interfere unless you have a VERY small monitor. I'll give an example on my sandbox. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 20:36, 7 March 2007 (EST)
:::::::The color idea for the various races appears great! Once you agree how the "revamped" NPC pages are gonna be, I can take a city or two and go through the NPCs therein. Dabs on Chorrol. :-) The black on dark gray (Dunmer) is a bit hard to read: I suggest lighter gray background or changing the text color to white for this one as well. But I don't think anyone is going to have extensive text in a colored box? I like Nephele's latest sandbox very much. However I have suggestion: swap Gender and Race. Thus, Race becomes first in that group as a more significant piece of information than gender, and will then furthermore be grouped vertically with the character's level. Finally, I suggest the statistics be dropped from the "Other Statistics" heading, since A) almost half of the stuff under it isn't actually any kinda stats and 2) I generally want to deprecate the word statistics. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 21:35, 7 March 2007 (EST)
::::::::Actually, I had the Race and Gender swapped like your suggestion originally. I swapped them for two reasons. First, generally each NPC page begins with a sentence like "So-and-so is a male Imperial", so you see gender first. Second, both Race and Class link to pages for all Races and Classes, while Gender and Level do not. It felt more natural putting the two linked ones next to eachother, rather than on opposite corners. Oh, another change I think is that we don't need to have the "Gold" field use the word "Gold" both before and after the number. Just seems redundant. By the way, Nephele, if you make this into a template, can you arrange to have it non-game-specific, so it can be used with Morrowind as well? Most of those NPC pages aren't done yet, so it'd be nice to have this system in place ahead of time. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 22:20, 7 March 2007 (EST)

I suppose at the moment I've dropped the links on both "Race" and "Class" in the first stab at a template. With race it was mainly a matter of not thinking about it at the time. But with class, I feel like giving a link to [[Oblivion:Classes]] is going to lead to the same question that came up a day ago about NPC-only classes. I'd like to create a page like Oblivion:NPC_Classes that lists all the classes at some point; with a template it would be easy to then change that word to a link. Also, I think I'll wait on swapping race/gender again until there's more consensus... it's another trivial change to the template.

As for non-Oblivion-specific, I've been trying to stick in NAMESPACE instead of Oblivion whenever I remember. There are probably a few additional tweaks that are needed, such as the fact that pages on Essential NPCs and Followers seem unlikely to exist in Morrowind. But I'll leave those types of tweaks until the basic template is working. And keep my eyes open when Morrowind NPC pages start to use it to catch anything that crops up. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:44, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:What if you should swap that too, ie. say "NN is an Imperial male"? I think race is more important than gender, so it would make change for it to be prevalent. Would it make sense to create a list of people to allocate places to work on, as to avoid two people working on the same NPCs, or am I going overboard? This just seems like a major project, so proper managing would be in order. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 22:52, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::Not to try to bring this into a political debate, (most people see gender as more important than race when looking for potential mates, but we don't want to get into a whole gay-marriage vs. interracial-marriage thing here) I just wonder why you think race is more important? Going back to the games, personally, I can't usually tell the difference between one race and another in these games - Bretons, Imperials, and Nords all kind of look alike, and Altmer, Bosmer, and Dunmer can be difficult to distinguish at times as well. However, it's almost always immediately apparent whether the character is male or female. (Though when you're talking about Argonians and Khajiit, the distinction is slightly blurred, but it's usually not that hard to tell.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 23:13, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::Looking at the template now... Is there a reason why the race has to be given twice? Seems to me it should be possible to just say "Redguard" once, and it would automatically figure out which category to put it in. I know, the categories are plural. (I have only myself to blame for that I guess, since I set them up originally - a mistake I deliberately avoided when doing the Morrowind race categories.) Seems to me, if we're going to redo all the NPC pages with this template, we should take this opportunity to move and rename the categories so they all use the singular form of the race name. That way you can just use one entry in the template, which will work for both Morrowind and Oblivion, and save you a line of redundancy. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 23:26, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:::Hehehe. In my opinnion the difference between races is much bigger than the difference between two NPCs of same race and different gender - as a whole. It took me some time to learn the different races, but now I couldn't mix them up even if I was asleep. ;-) If you see a picture of an NPC, how do you tell his/her gender? Especially, more easily than the race. Remember, visual is more important although this is blurred by the fact that most NPCs feel obligated to say something on sight. I am talking about the Elder Scrolls world then. :D Otherwise gender issues are also blown out of proportion usually. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 23:28, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::::I'd love to implement the template on the pages. I play on 360, so I'd have to leave a few places blank, but hopefully that would at least make it easier on whoever would be willing to tackle that, just filling in the blank spaces. The latest version looks great! --[[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] 23:44, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:::::That's very nice! The more labor available the better. :D I would like to questionalize the inclusion of the invisible Responsibility and Aggression numbers. The Responsibility rating of the NPCs bears little meaning - except for thieves or other unlawfuls wanting to exploit it being low - if at all possible even. Aggression then is almost always 5 for friendly NPCs and a significant deviation from that might be better described in detail. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 00:01, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:Looks just about perfect to me. I don't have any preference, as to whether sex or race ''need'' to come first, so Nephele's reasoning for keeping and class together makes sense to me.
:What I want to know is what Nephele means by "doing an info-dump from the construction set". Would that involve an impossibly huge amount of manual lookup and typing, or do you know of a way to extract the information automatically? If it's the former, is that really necessary? When I started reading this discussion, I had assumed that we'd just look up the information on each person that we're doing ourselves. -- [[User:JustTheBast|JustTheBast]] 00:11, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Answers, answers....
* Race given twice. The main reason is me thinking ahead to a few oddball NPCs I know exist, who need to go into the Oblivion-Other_Races category. Having two separate race entries will make it easier to deal with those cases
* Responsibility and aggression can definitely be discussed more. Responsibility affects a few things (will the NPC report a crime? Will a merchant fence goods), which probably need to be documented better. I haven't figured out too many details of how Aggression affects gameplay, so I'll let Jadrax defend its usefulness ;)
* My main idea for how to avoid duplicating work dovetails with my idea on how to prevent editors wasting their time doing stuff that a computer can do much more easily: I can dump pre-formatted data to [[User:Nephele/Sandbox/4]] (using scripts to pull the numbers out of the Oblivion.esm file and automatically assemble all the info; no manual typing involved). If someone wants to tackle a NPC, they grab the relevant data and delete the entry in the sandbox. As long as everybody only works on NPCs listed in my sandbox, no overlaps.
Feedback on how to make the data dump work more efficiently is welcome (as is feedback on most other topics). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:16, 8 March 2007 (EST)

:Aggression is used by the AI to determine what Disposition level will trigger hostility (effectively, start combat). Maybe each NPC that has a special activity follow from his/her Responsibility level would have it documented otherwise (state this NPC is a Fence) etc. Alternatively, instead of reporting the number directly the result could be given as in "This NPC will report crimes directly". Of course some sort of a shorter method would be used but a categorization might be better than (only) the number. I'm just throwing ideas and my thoughts here - I don't really care how you do this. ;-) Unless we read the data directly from the Oblivion.esm file with a custom program, there is no way to automate extraction of data from the game. Is the information so far in the NPC pages reliable or will a part of this project involve verifying the existing data? --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 00:50, 8 March 2007 (EST)

Oblivion talk:People

2007-03-08T05:01:44Z

FMan: /* NPC Pages */

Oblivion talk:People

2007-03-08T04:28:25Z

FMan: /* NPC Pages */

Daggerfall Mod:File Formats

2007-03-08T04:09:06Z

FMan: /* Major Topics and Seperate Documents */ added another link

{{Daggerfall}}

Want to know the hex location in the save game to give yourself tons of gold or that nifty item? Perhaps the format of the ''Daggerfall'' IMG files? Well here you can find that and much, much more. Please note that all the information/links contained on this page is third party information and, as such, may contain errors.

==Major Topics and Seperate Documents==
<dl>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:TEXT.RSC indices|TEXT.RSC Indices]]</dt>
<dd>Lists the indices of texts in the TEXT.RSC file.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:BSA file formats|BSA File Formats]]</dt>
<dd>Description of the BSA files [[Daggerfall:MAPS.BSA|MAPS.BSA]], [[Daggerfall:ARCH3D.BSA|ARCH3D.BSA]], and [[Daggerfall:BLOCKS.BSA|BLOCKS.BSA]], which contain most of the map and 3D object information for the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:WOODS.WLD format|WOODS.WLD Format]]</dt>
<dd>Description of the WOODS.WLD format which appears to give information about the creation of landscape within the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Image formats|Image Formats]]</dt>
<dd>Close to complete formats for all of the IMG, CIF, Texture, PAL, and COL image and palette files.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Quest hacking guide|Quest Hacking Guide]]</dt>
<dd>A text file detailing the formats of the QRC and QBN files which contain the quest data.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Region Numbers|Region Numbers]]</dt>
<dd>List of all map areas and their indices used in the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Hacking FALL.EXE|Hacking FALL.EXE]]</dt>
<dd>How to allow attributes and skills to exceed 100 by hacking the v2.13 FALL.EXE file.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:SAVEGAME.DAT description|SAVEGAME.DAT Description]]</dt>
<dd>A good partially complete description of the format and structure of the save game file.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Quest pseudo-codes|Quest Pseudo-Codes]]</dt>
<dd>Lengthy description of the pseudo section used in the QBN quest files.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Custom Artifacts|Custom Artifacts]]</dt>
<dd>Information on the format of the MAGIC.DEF and how to add artifacts into the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:MAGIC.DEF_indices|MAGIC.DEF indices]]</dt>
<dd>Index and analysis for this file.
<dt>[[Daggerfall:SPELLS.STD_indices|SPELLS.STD indices]]</dt>
<dd>Index codes for the spells in the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:TEXT.RSC format|TEXT.RSC Format]]</dt>
<dd>Describes the structure of the file TEXT.RSC.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Book format|Book format]]</dt>
<dd>The almost complete format to the book files found in the ARENA2\BOOKS directory.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Texture files|Texture Files]]</dt>
<dd>Information on deciphering some of the texture files, mostly on changing woman clothing images.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Save Game Offsets|Save Game Offsets]]</dt>
<dd>A close to complete listing of hex offsets and their description in Daggerfall save games.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:DFQEdit manual|DFQEdit Manual]]</dt>
<dd>The HTML manual page for the start of a close to complete quest editor for Daggerfall.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Hacking Items|Hacking Items]]</dt>
<dd>A very complete guide telling one how to change around item images to those not normally seen in the game.</dd>
</dl>

==Hacking Programs==
<dl>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dftext.zip DFTEXT.ZIP] - 50kb</dt>
<dd>Add, modify, extract, or delete texts from the file TEXT.RSC, DOS program.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/defedit.zip DEFEDIT.ZIP] - 80kb</dt>
<dd>Add, modify, or delete magical items+artifacts from the MAGIC.DEF file, DOS program.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/wqe14exe.zip WinQEdit.ZIP v1.4] - 320kb</dt>
<dd>Good versatile quest editor for Win95.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/andypic.zip ANDYPIC.ZIP] - 43kb</dt>
<dd>An improvement over the DagPic utility allowing one to view just about all IMG, CIF, and texture files in the game. Cannot yet successfully import pictures into all texture formats (if you don't change the images size it works better). Same command prompt syntax as DagPic with several expanded options.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/bookedit.zip BOOKEDIT.ZIP] - 101kb</dt>
<dd>Edit and add your own book in the game, DOS program.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dfitem.zip DFITEM.ZIP v0.1b] - 80kb</dt>
<dd>DOS program to edit any item in you savegame! Change name, uses, cost, enchantments, type, picture and more. Unzip into your Daggerfall directory.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dfhack.zip DFHACK.ZIP] - 280kb</dt>
<dd>Save game editor for Windows. Can edit/view just about everything including items, reputation in addition to the normal stats/skills etc...</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/editbio.zip EDITBIO.ZIP] - 111kb</dt>
<dd>Edit your biography file created during character creation.</dd>
</dl>

==Hacking Links==
*[http://www.dfworkshop.net/ Daggerfall Workshop] and its [http://forums.dfworkshop.net/ forums] are frequented by several prominent Daggerfall hackers.
*[http://www.svatopluk.com/ King Svatopluk's Court] hosts a fair selection of Daggerfall hacking tools and documents.
*[http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/2997/dagger.html Save Game Hex List]—Contains a good list of hex codes for the save game to give yourself items, armor, weapons, etc.

==Running Without the CD==
Daggerfall can be run without the CD to improve game speed and prevent the annoyance of having to switch CDs when playing various games.

* Install the game with the largest install size.
* Copy all the files from the DAGGER/ARENA2 directory on the CD to the ARENA2 directory on your hard drive where you installed the game. There are some large files which are not installed by the largest install size.
* Install the latest patch as desired.
* Edit the Z.CFG file in your ''Daggerfall'' directory. Change the <tt>PATHCD</tt> value to match that of the <tt>PATH</tt> value.
* To run the game don't use <tt>DAGGER.EXE</tt> as you would normally, but instead run the command <tt>FALL.EXE Z.CFG</tt>. You can create a batch file to prevent having to type it each time, but don't name it <tt>DAGGER.BAT</tt>.
* Some say you need to add the line <tt>set dos4gvm=@dagger.vmc</tt> to your <tt>Autoexec</tt> or your custom batch file, though the game will run without it.

==Becoming a Lich==
I thought I'd put a slight new twist in the game and try to become a lich. This would be essentially similar to a vampire with a few differences. The first step is, of course, to become a vampire as one normally would. Once that has been accompished you'll need to edit several files.

* Change your face into that of a lich. Vampire faces are contained in the file VAMP00i0.CIF. I've created a skeleton like face which is available on the [http://www.uesp.net/dagger/daggraph.shtml Daggerfall Graphics Page] which will work fine. You will need to use Andypic and play with the X and Y position of the picture to get it right. Probably the easier way is to extract your vampire face and load it up into an editor. Copy the skeleton face into it and shift it until the eyes match up. Feel free to create your own 'lich' face, I'd love to see it.
* Change your body into that of a lich. I've created a semi-decent skeleton also available on the Daggerfall Graphics Page. Find your body image which can be found in the BODY0?i?.IMG files. You will probably need to change the size and position of the image a bit to match depending on your race. The skeleton was made for a male Redguard. It doesn't fit everthing 100% since everything is much skinnier than normal so you'll have to wear things to cover it up....of course you'll have to wear things anyways otherwise people would be fleeing in terror.
* Edit your savegame to make yourself immune to poison and disease. Your undead now and can't be affected by either. Also make yourself resistant to shock since this has a lesser effect on you.
* Give yourself a critical weakness to fire...very deadly to undead. Also give yourself low tolerance to cold (wouldn't want those bones to shatter now would we). Any previous weaknesses/resistances etc... other than those mentioned can be left as is.
* Give yourself a bonus to hit undead. Since you are one of the more powerful undead yourself, you have 'insight' or power over the other beings. Give yourself a phobia of humans since they generally want to kill you in nasty ways.
* In order for your reputation not to drop (you are a walking skeleton after all), you must do several things. First, ensure that you are covered as much as possible from head to toe at all times. Next, to futhur ensure people don't recognize you for who you really are, make a magical item to 'disguise' your looks. It can be any magical item really, just make it give it powerful enchantments including the soul of a lich. It probably should have a spell that is cast at all times although I find this annoying, I'll leave it up to you.

That is it really, not too much different than a vampire, but your character portrait is now real cool. Feel free to make comments or suggestions on this.

==Changing the Wagon Weight Limit==
Changing the size of the wagon is simple, once you know the location of the bytes. In version 2.13 of Daggerfall the offset is 0xDFE13. Note that you must multiply the desired max weight by four when changing it (ie, a max weight of 1000 lbs is the hex code A00F). The max value for the weight is most likely in the area of 16000 lbs. To change the text that goes along with this, check out the offset 0x1B06AC, making sure not to exceed the length of the string that is there. If you don't want to do this hex-editting yourself, check out the utility [http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dfwagon.zip DFWAGON.ZIP] which allows you to change the value and the text string.

==Repairing with Hex Editing==
by Shadow Jack 
I can't find my write up so here it is again. Pardon me if I cover points you already know. If you need a hex editor, I recommend Hex Workshop, which I got off the net from a Excite search (+hex +editor +win95). Remember it's always a good idea to backup the file first (HW will prompt you to do a backup if make changes).

The save games are in the Dagger directory under subdirectories SAVE0 through SAVE5 in the following order according to the save screen....

<table border=2 cellpadding=7 cellspacing=0>
<tr><td width=50>SAVE0</td><td width=50>SAVE3</td></tr>
<tr><td>SAVE1</td><td>SAVE4</td></tr>
<tr><td>SAVE2</td><td>SAVE5</td></tr>
</table>

The save game file is savetree.dat.

The "name" of the save game is in a file called savename.txt if you want to verify that you have the right save.

Look for the item you want to repair (like %it of Orc Strength or Leaping %it), your items will generally follow your name and class name. Locate the beginning of the name then count forward 44 bytes. Position 44-45 are current status and 46-47 are max status. I generally set these 4 bytes to FF7F FF7F. This gives 32000+ uses before breakage. To help insure you are in the right place, for magic items, the two bytes right before that (42-43) usually start with a 2 (2###).

This works for ALL item, not just magical ones. One of these days, I'll play with those other two bytes and see if I can't figure out how to MAKE magic items ;-)

==Fixing the Daedric Cuirass Bug and 'Repairing' Items==
Someone asked if you could use a hex editor to fix the broken Daedric Cuirasses and occasionally broken Daedric Greaves that the shops sell or that you find on monsters. Yes. In your hex editor find the beginning of the word Cuirass. In the file SAVETREE.DAT from your SAVEn directory Words 44, 45, 46 and 47 offset from the C in Cuirass will be something like 00H 80H 00H 80H. These two 2-byte hex words are "hits remaining" and "max hits" for the Cuirass. When it's new they should match. Once it's taken damage the hits remaining is reduced by the amount of the damage. Unfortunately, the word 8000H when taken as a signed integer is negative and the program believes anything that has a negative value is broken. Therefore the cuirass is broken, even though it's new. So, to make the new Cuirass not broken, change the values to FFH 7FH FFH 7FH for the words offset by 44, 45, 46 and 47 respectively. (This is reducing the max hits for the Cuirass from 32768 to 32767.)

You can also use this information to "fix" magic items (just use a hex editor to ake the two hex words match) until Bethesda fixes the "repairs objects" magic enchantment so that it works in the patched versions.

Be sure to make a backup of SAVETREE.DAT before messing with it. '''NOTE:''' This is fixed in patch v1.79.

==Changing Item Materials==
by Leonard Miyata, J. Carl Smith, and Matthew O. Avent 
Ok, so you're at bytes 44 or so doing "self repairs" on your magic weapons and armor, right? Well, you get to thinking about how ugly that leather cuirass looks. You decide to change it. So, you go down from the 44th "repair byte" to byte 50. This controls the style of the armor. You have to experiment to find out which is which, but if you go too high or too low, your armor disappears. Keep that in mind. Anyway, so you change it to look like that cool breastplate. But then you think, "wait... wouldn't it look better as, DAEDRIC?" sure it would! So, you move over 4 bytes to a 0#. Change this to a 09 (these numbers actually coorospond to the ones on the biog*.* edit list, cool huh?). Now, this WON'T change the color. So if you like the ebony color better than the daedric, hop over two more bytes (all this is to the right btw). Here you'll see a 1#. change this to a 17 (this matches the color of the type of material, aka 19 for daedric, 18 for orc, etc). Well, that's it. Have fun with that daedric!

<pre>
Bytes 44-47: Repair Bytes
Byte 50: Armor Style (Leather, Plate, etc...)
Byte 54: Armor Type (Steel, Silver, Daedric etc...)
Byte 56: Armor Colour
</pre>

Somthing to add to Changing Item Material Via Hex-editing
In addition to the offset from Start of Item Name,

<pre>
Byte 57: Item Weight (Weight = Byte value X 0.25 lbs)
</pre>

These Byte modifications are only Valid with Plate armor and do not work with Chain/Leather armor. Other artifact characteristics (Net worth, embedded magic) are not effected by the byte change, so if you modify a cheap iron dagger into a feather weight Daedric Dagger, its selling price is still only as a cheap iron dagger.

One important thing to note: byte 54 is the Armor Material, and byte 55 is the armor TYPE. 0 is leather, 1 is chain, 2 is plate. I believe 3 is Crystal, 4 is Glass, and 5 and up are weird things like "of Lightning" and the like. Values past 2 add obscene amounts to your armor rating - like +58, or +2470. Of course, there is a maximum practical value, beyond which the game seems to ignore any further armor ratings. (This could simply be like the AD&D 'natural 20' rule, where a certain percent-score on the to-hit check results in an automatic hit, regardless of defenders' AC.)

==Fixing the Negative Spell Point Bug==
by Jim Okamura 
This is a bug - nobody anticipated it because you shouldn't be able to select both low magic ability and no magic in daylight at the same time. What happens is that the "No Magic" part reduces your spellpoints to zero, then the low magic tries to further reduce that. Result is you have -32768 SP.

If you have a hex-editor, you can fix it. Use the editor to find your character's name in the savetree.dat file. Then count 565 bytes toward the end of the file from the first letter in your character's name - this byte should have a value of '''X3''' where '''X''' is:

* 0 if you have 3X Int in SP
* 1 if you have 1X Int in SP (SP = Int)
* 2 if you have 2X Int in SP
* 4 if you have 1.75X Int in SP

The 3 is because you selected both no magic and low magic. Change the 3 to a zero if you don't want either of these limitations. Make it 1 for no magic in daylight or 2 for low magic in daylight (or just make the whole byte zero - that gives you 3X INT in SP and no magic handicaps).

==Monster Reflex Byte Location==
The monster reflex byte is location 130 bytes (82 bytes HEX) from the beginning of the character's name in the file SAVETREE.DAT found in the save game directories. The byte values range from 0 (Highest) to 4(Lowest). Alternatively you can download a program to do this automatically from the [http://www.uesp.net/dagger/files/dagfiles.shtml Files Area] if you aren't familiar with hex editted binary files.

==Increasing View Distance==
by Thor-Eirik Larsen 
The first thing that really got on my nerves when I ventured into the wonderful world of Tamriel, was the limited view. I figured I had to fix that particular "bug". In the file savetree.dat, Daggerfall stores the sound/music/detail settings as vars.

Now, the program itself does not allow you to enlarge the red bar beyond the limits of clicking-area, but a simple hex-editor does, if you only manage to locate the vars. As the size differs slightly from time to time, one cannot use the same offset for every savefile. To find the vars, just max the bars, save, let your hex-editor search the savetree.dat for these hex-values 7F,7F,00,7F,00 (the first byte being the detail, you may have to search for 7E's instead), and change the detail to FF!!!! When you load your game, you'll notice that your range has been doubled making everything look much better! (Not as good as unlimited range, but beats the hell out of the first one :))

==Changing into Monsters==
by m00se 
Dunno if this would be in everyone's game. As I've said before, I hack considerably at my .exe [which I'd release if Bethesda would let me, cause I'm playin' a different game now. The 'Collectors' version, per se. (I've over 550 different items on my ship, as well as 150+ different paintings.)], but in my game, if one gets hit in at range while having The Wabbajack equipped, you are polymorphed into some other creature. I've screenshots of me being a rat, a lich and something else. Sometimes (often) when you go to view your character on the stats screen, it'll crash, which makes be beleive I didn't miss something when I was reading about the artifacts. It's interesting, because it TOTALLY skews your stats, and it RESETS the character. I don't know if any of these mutants would be playable due to stability.

[[Category:Daggerfall Hacking|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Daggerfall Mod:MAGIC.DEF indices

2007-03-08T04:06:54Z

FMan: /* MAGIC.DEF Index and Analysis */ removed personal credit

= MAGIC.DEF Index and Analysis =

The following is the list of spell type codes for the role-playing game "The Elder Scrolls, Chapter II: Daggerfall". This information was compiled using a third-party editor program called DEFEDIT.EXE made by Dave Humphrey, founder and administrator of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages.

== Item-maker Catalogue ==
Custom magic items made by the Mage's Guild Enchanter, aka the ItemMaker, reference the catalogue of spells. The specific spells available are listed below.
There are a number of other non-spell effects not listed.

=== Cast When Used: ===
* Levitate
* Light
* Invisibility
* Wizard's Fire
* Shock
* Strength Leech
* Free Action
* Open
* Resist Cold
* Resist Fire
* Resist Shock
* Wizard Lock
* Fire Ball
* Cure Poison
* Ice Bolt
* Shield
* Spell Shielf
* Silence
* Troll's Blood
* Ice Storm
* Fire Storm
* Resist Poison
* Wildfire
* Spell Drain
* Far Silence
* Toxic Cloud
* Wizard Rend
* Shalidor's Mirror
* Lightning
* Medusa's Gaze
* Force Bolt
* Gods' Fire
* Stamina
* Heal
* Balyna's Antidote
* Recall

=== Cast When Held: ===
* Slowfalling
* Spell Resistance
* Water-walking
* Free Action
* Water Breathing
* Resist Cold
* Resist Fire
* Resist Poison
* Resist Shock
* Invisibility
* Chameleon
* Shadow Form
* Spell Reflection
* Troll's Blood
* Spell Absorption
* Levitate
* Tongues
* Orc Strength
* Wisdom
* Iron Will
* Nimbleness
* Feet of Notorgo
* Fortitude
* Charisma
* Jack of Trades

=== Cast When Strikes: ===
* Paralysis
* Hand of Sleep
* Vampiric Touch
* Magicka Leech
* Hand of Decay
* Wildfire
* Ice Storm
* Fire Storm
* Ice Bolt
* Wizard's Fire
* Sphere of Negation
* Energy Leech

== Magic Item Catalogue ==
Random magic items and a particular class of magic artifacts reference the catalogue of spells. The specifications for these items is in the file MAGIC.DEF which has 59 entries including all the magic artifacts along with the random magic items. The following is a listing of the items that reference spells in the catalogue along with the item's index number ins MAGIC.DEF and the spell(s)'s reference number(s) in SPELL.STD.

This information was obtained by use of the program DEFEdit v0.0b likely written by Dave Humprey.

<pre><nowiki>
Item name DEF # Enchantment Spell 1 STD # Magic Type Item Type Uses Mat. Unknown

Masque of Clavicus Vile 1 Increase Personality N/A N/A Artifact Ring 1500 Iron 0x0000C350
Mehrune's Razor 2 Save vs Magic or Die N/A N/A Artifact Dagger 1500 Orcish 0x0000C350
Mace of Molag Bal 3 Drain Spell Points / Strength N/A N/A Artifact Mace 1500 Daedric 0x0000C350
The Hircine Ring 4 Change into Lycanthrope N/A N/A Artifact Ring 1500 Iron 0x0000C350
The Sanguine Rose 5 Summon Daedroth N/A N/A Artifact Red Rose 1500 Iron 0x0000C350
Oghma Infinium 6 Masque of Clavicus? N/A N/A Artifact Book-Oghma Type 1 Iron 0x0000C350
The Wabbajack 7 Receive 30 Bonus Points N/A N/A Artifact Staff 1500 Daedric 0x0000C350
The Ring of Namira 8 Attacker Recieves Own Damage N/A N/A Artifact Ring 1500 Iron 0x0000C350
The Skull of Corruption 9 Clone Target N/A N/A Artifact Amulet 1500 Iron 0x0000C350
Azura's Star 10 Reusable Soul Gem N/A N/A Artifact Amulet 1500 Iron 0x0000C350

Silent %it 11 Cast Used Silence 23 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000002BC
%it of the Wise 12 Cast Held Wisdom 83 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x00000190
%it of Wildfire 13 Cast Used Wildfire 33 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000320
%it of Force Bolts 14 Cast Used Force Bolt 36 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000352
Shining %it 15 Cast Used Light 5 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x0000015E
%it of the Sealed Door 16 Cast Used Wizard Lock 19 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x0000012C
%it of Undeniable Access 17 Cast Used Open 18 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000001F4
%it of Venom Antidote 18 Cast Used Cure Poison 15 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000001C2
%it of Life Stealing 19 Vampiric When Strikes N/A N/A Regular Cuirass 1500 Iron 0x000005DC
%it of Wizard's Fire 20 Cast Used Wizard's Fire 7 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000384
Leaping %it 21 Enhance Skill Dragonish N/A N/A Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x0000012C
%it of Water-Walking 22 Cast Held Water Walking 41 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x0000012C
%it of Magicka 23 Absorbs Spells N/A N/A Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x00000258
Never Tiring %it 24 Cast Used Stamina 40 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000000FA
%it of Featherweight 25 Cast Used Slowfalling 37 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000226
%it, the Protector 26 Cast Used Shield 17 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x0000028A
%it of Shocking 27 Cast Used Shock 8 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x0000028A
Cursing %it 28 Cast Used Toxic Cloud 29 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000001F4
%it of Far Silence 29 Cast Used Far Silence 28 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000352
%it of Venom Spitting 30 Cast Used Levitate 4 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000001F4
Blazing %it of Fireballs 31 Cast Used Fireball 14 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000003E8
Frosty %it of Ice Storms 32 Cast Used Ice Storm 20 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000384
%it of Lightning 33 Cast Used Lightning 31 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000384
Deadman's %it 34 Cast Used Fire Storm 25 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000320
Healing %it 35 Cast Used Heal 64 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000226
%it of the Orc Lord 36 Cast Held Orc Strength 82 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x000002EE
Unrestrainable %it 37 Cast Used Free Action 10 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x000001F4
%it of Iron Will 38 Cast Held Iron Will 84 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x00000190
%it of Nimbleness 39 Cast Held Nimbleness 85 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x00000190
Torgo's %it 40 Cast Held Feet of Notorgo 86 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x000002BC
%it of Fortitude 41 Cast Held Fortitude 87 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x00000190
%it of Friendship 42 Cast Held Charisma 88 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x0000015E
%it of Good Luck 43 Cast Held Jack of Trade 89 Regular Glass Jar 1500 Iron 0x00000190
%it of Oblivion 44 Cast Strikes Sphere of Negation 55 Regular Cuirass 1500 Iron 0x000002BC
%it of Toxic Clouds 45 Cast Used Toxic Cloud 29 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x0000028A
%it of Paralysis 46 Cast Used Medusa's Gaze 35 Regular Indulcet 1500 Iron 0x00000258

Volendrung 47 Cast Strikes Paralysis X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
X Cast X Ext Artifact 1500 0x0000
</nowiki></pre>

[[Category:Daggerfall Hacking|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Oblivion talk:People

2007-03-08T03:52:54Z

FMan: /* NPC Pages */

UESPWiki:Community Portal

2007-03-08T03:46:34Z

FMan: General resolving thingy

Daggerfall:Vampirism/Archive

2007-03-08T03:36:13Z

FMan: dummy placeholder

{{proposeddeletion|nothing links here}}

==Vampires==

===Vampire Playing Tips===
26 July 1999

When you take damage in "daylight" there is a counter of some
sort. (Whack...tick...tick...Whack...tick...tick...etc) If you get
the guards after you between "sun whacks", the next time you are
about to be "whacked" you get the message "Do you want to surrender
to the City guards" - ALWAYS. No guards have to be anywhere near
you for you to get the message. Of course, surrender is instant
death - you will always be released into broad daylight and die
immediately. And non-surrender means your rep goes down. If
you want to get in the DB wait until you get "hit" by the sun,
QUICKLY kill 4 or 5 people - then immediately Teleport out of town.
If you aren't fast enough you'll be asked to surrender - you can be
totally invisible and no where near a guard - it won't matter.

You CANNOT join the Dark Brotherhood or Thieves more than once
in the game. Period. I made a point of NOT killing anyone before
I became a Vampire - then afterward I had a spree. The Dark Brothers
contacted me within 3 days just as they were supposed to do.
I've not started picking pockets yet - but my guess is since I've
not been a Thief yet, they will contact me as well once I start stealing stuff (like they always do).

----
===Unlimited Spellpoints===
If you are a Vampire of the Haarvenu Clan, you can benefit from the
following bug/loophole:

As a Haarvenu, you will get the Ice Storm spell which will cost you
less than the normal version to cast. But, if you cast this spell and
then absorb it (by spell/item/innate ability) you will get back the
amount of SP you would have to spend for casting the normal version of
the spell. E. g., if the normal version would cost you 20 SP and the
vampire version only 5 SP, your magicka pool would be increased by 15
SP if you cast and absorb the "vampiric" ice storm. Thus, you can
refill your magicka pool up to maximum any time you like. But beware:
if your magicka pool is (nearly) full, you will not be able to absorb
the spell and will take damage from it. (tested for patch 213)

----
===Sunlight and Temples===
As a Vampire, you will take damage from sunlight and holy places. This
can be avoided by using a simple shield spell. The program obviously
interprets the damage you take as a "hit", and first deducts the
hitpoints from your shield spell. As long as your shield is up, you
won't take any damage from the sun or from holy places. If it is
powerful enough, you can even rest outside (but that shield must be
extremely powerful). (tested for patch 213)

----
===Navigating During Daylight===
Even though, with a heal spell, going outside in the daytime as a vampire is
possible, I have found it difficult to go to stores in the daytime because
you arrive at night hungry, can't eat without summoning the guards, and
therefore can't sleep at an inn. This method works if you are high enough in
the mages guild to teleport. Set a recall anchor outside an inn. Go to the
Mages Guild, use the teleporter to travel to a nearby dungeon, feed, then
recall back. You can then sleep at the inn and go shopping in the morning.
If you can't teleport this next method works, but is more time-consuming. Go
at night and set a recall anchor in front of the store you want to shop in.
Fast travel to a nearby dungeon, eat, sleep until the store is open, then
recall back. After you shop, you can then go to an inn and sleep.

----
===More Tips on Feeding===
All this is not necessary. All you have to do is sneak up behind a guard near the edge of a town
and backstab him (backstab ensures you are not hit and asked to surrender) and then run just outside the town
(until the automap will no longer come up). Then head back for the town. When you re-enter its as you never even
killed the guard and you can now rest, shop, etc. If a guard is not nearby just run inside the city
and bust down a few doors to attract a few.

''Original Text Written by [mailto:l.sean.azelton@uic.edu Sean Azelton], ''
''[mailto:nellotp@aol.com NellOTP@aol.com], ''
''[mailto:jeremy_hagan28@hotmail.com Jeremy Hagan], ''
''and [mailto:lohmeyer@metronet.de Tirithiel].''

----
===Retaining Dark Brotherhood Membership?===
I found an interesting thing out about the vamprism bit. You're not supposed to be able to join
the Dark Brotherhood again after being infected with vamprism, right? Well, after I cured
myself, I rejoined the Mages Guild and I got the quest to retrieve and deliver some mage
research, blah blah blah. The important thing is, that when the Dark Brotherhood
sent their threat, the message was the one you'd get if you were still a member.
And when I checked my affiliations for an explanation, it said I was a member of the brotherhood!

Anyway, this seems like a good way to circumvent the problem, although I haven't found similar
means to do this with the Thieves Guild.

''Original Text Written by [mailto:mgnash@cport.com Master Gnash]

----
===Vampire Playing Tips===
15 March 1997

====Daggerfall Vampirism Facts 11/7/1996====
(Those I have not confirmed are marked)

;Contracting Vampirism:
:*Vampirism can be contracted from:
:**Vampires. If you soul trap a vampire you can release it in any clan territory to to belong to that clan.
:**Items (confirmed)
:**There is a .6% chance per hit from a vampire of contracting vampirism
:***Warning: There is a 2% chance per hit of contracting other diseases
:***Such diseases can kill the PC before vampirism reaches final stage
:*A prophetic dream will come to the PC the first rest after successful infection with vampirism. The dream consists of a beautiful young woman shedding tears of blood.
:**I have seen a potion of cure disease halt the progression of vampirism at this stage.
:*On the third night, 72 hours, after dream/infection, Player Character becomes a vampire.
:**PC wakes 2 weeks later in a crypt with all items intact.
:**Be aware of your main quest time limits
:*In versions of Daggerfall prior to 179, I have only once successfully crossed a vampire
:**Previous versions, in my experience, crashed at the point of turning, 72 hours after infection/dream

;Once a Vampire . . .:
:*PC's face and background will change in portrait.
:*Character loses all affiliations and rank.
:**Character is considered dead by past acquaintances.
:**Reputation, however, does not change other than the natural drift to zero over time.
:**Affiliations can be re-initiated in most guilds. Have joined Mages' Guild, Temples, Knightly Orders, etc...
:**Invitational guilds, such as the Thieves' Guild/Dark Brotherhood have not invited BACK - can be joined if not previously a member. (Bug?)
:*Vampires gain a +20 bonus to all prime statistic except for INT.
:**the Anthotis "clan" gains the +20 bonus to INT as well.
:*Vampires gain a +30 bonus to the following skills:
:**Jumping
:**Running
:**Stealth
:**Critical Striking
:**Climbing
:**Hand-to-hand
:*Vampires (all) gain the following spells:
:**Levitate
:**Charm humanoid
:**Calm humanoid
:*Vampires of differing clans gain these spells: (unconfirmed other than Thrafey)
:**Vraseth gain Nibleness
:**Khulari gain Paralysis
:**Montalion gain Free Action (not sure what bonus is here if immune to paralysis)
:**Thrafey gain Heal (handy for daylight excursions)
:**Garlythi gain Shield
:**Selenu gain Resist Fire, Resist Cold, Resist Shock
:**Lysrezi gain Silence, Invisibility
:**Haarvenu gain Ice storm and or Wildfire
:***These spells should cost less than they would as a normal mortal
:***These spells will not replace identical spells in the grimoire, but will be added to it.
:*Vampires are immune to paralysis.
:**Monster (computer controlled) vampires are not
:*Vampires are supposedly immune to disease.
:**My vampire has been known to contract Witches' Pox
:*Vampires are immune to iron and steel weapons.
:**Vampires take damage from arrows even if the aggressor has no bow
:*Vampires take damage from being outside in daylight from the hours of 6am to 6pm.
:**A vampire who commits a crime (unsuccessfully) in daylight outside will be asked to surrender to cityguards regardless of whether or not any are in sight.
:*Vampires must kill once a day to rest or loiter.
:**Loitering in daylight outside is death
:**Killing any creature will satisfy the hunger and allow rest
:***Townies not included (apparently)
:***Killing and eating is done simply by killing, no special requirements
:***Ghosts and wraiths in Daggerfall make for convenient food for the metropolitan vampire.
:*Vampires cannot fast travel from the hours of 6am to 6pm.
:**Vampires can fast travel without killing, useful for regaining hit points, spell points
:*Vampiric clans, called "blood families" are supposed to contact the vampire.
:**The clans are currently not contacting, Bethesda says that they are aware of the problem and working on it at this time.
:**The Vampire clans still don't contact you (played with the last patch, 1.95) Problem: The Daedra Azura is giving her quest to places that doesn't exist (a lot of people reported this)
:**It may be at least semi-possible to contact the clans. I was called to kill a vampire I had created who was now a threat...I did so, and the quest giver told me I was one step in the right direction of becoming one of the Selenu (Sentinel). Perhaps it simply takes time to build ones rep with the clans.
:*Vampires are still able to continue with main quests.
:*A cure is available for vampires, offered about once per game-year.
:*#Vampire hunters will contact the vampire by letter with elegant script
:*#Vampire hunters will enter your home or ship to kill you.
:*#The hunter will start you on a course to find your "blood father"
:*#Killing the blood father should revert you to normal (confirmed). You'll be given two dungeons with a vampire ancient each, one of these is your blood father, you'll have the time to do both dungeons and they are easy the vampire ancient is the only vampire in these dungeon -- I've tried in Daggerfall, Mournoth, Wayrest and Glennpoint -- so when you're near you can hear him.
:*When you are a vampire, you do not get extra spell points out of an item that grants extra points around undead just by being yourself.

''Original Text Written by [mailto:chesire@primenet.com Cheshire, Scribe of Elsweyr].''
''Contributions from [mailto:gbundy@lucent.com Glenn R Bundy].''

----

===The Best Vampire Character===
OK..... After several re-rolls here's the best ever Vampire Character mix I've found.

;Advantages:
:*Spell Absorption General
:*Regeneration General
:*Increased Magery 3x Spell Points
:*30 HP a level
:*Optional - Acute Hearing (handy for tracking down people in dungeons)

;Disadvantages:
:*Damage in sunlight
:*Damage in Holy Places
:*Darkness powered Magery - Lower ability in Daylight
:*Critical Weakness - Paralysis
:*Critical Weakness - Disease
:*Forbidden Material - Steel
:*Forbidden Material - Elven

This should give you a level up of about x0.3. Now get turned into a Vampire as quickly as possible. This means that any disadvantages you get for vampirism like damage in sunlight and Holy places you already have... and are getting Level bonuses for, and your critical weakness's are completely negated by Immunities you get for being a vampire. For the best snack when you get to town.... bash a few doors until you get the guards attention. As long as you don't get hit by them you'll never get arrested. Since most guards don't have a magic or silver weapon this is not a problem. But it's always safer to save the game before Popping out for a BITE to eat. An even better way is to attack the door on your boot. In early patches at least guards would come running thinking a crime has been committed. This way your reputation in any province doesn't suffer.

'''PS:''' The best looking vampire is a Dark Elf Female.
----

===Vampiric Holy Item===
There appears to be some sort of holy item that can turn one into a vampire if you are carrying it. Below is an excerpt from an e-mail regarding this discovery.

:<code>I did a lot of playing around with that game till I found out what had caused my char. to become a vampire. I saved the game right befor leaving the dungen. I had not run into any vampires in that dungen and so I was confused. I had picked up a magical holy item, it was no different looking that any other holy item. I try to keep any magic items that I find. Hopeing for something with heal, open, or icestorm my favorite spells. I droped one item then fasted travled to some city about a week away, when I reached the city I was a vampire. I kept going back to my saved game and repeating with different new items the I had found in that dungeon till I reached the city as a normal dark elf. I repeated the experiment again and came up with the same result, that this holy item had transformed my char. into a vamp.</code>

It is currently unclear whether this is an actual game feature or merely a random bug.

Daggerfall Mod:File Formats

2007-03-08T03:34:08Z

FMan: /* Major Topics and Seperate Documents */ added a link

{{Daggerfall}}

Want to know the hex location in the save game to give yourself tons of gold or that nifty item? Perhaps the format of the ''Daggerfall'' IMG files? Well here you can find that and much, much more. Please note that all the information/links contained on this page is third party information and, as such, may contain errors.

==Major Topics and Seperate Documents==
<dl>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:TEXT.RSC indices|TEXT.RSC Indices]]</dt>
<dd>Lists the indices of texts in the TEXT.RSC file.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:BSA file formats|BSA File Formats]]</dt>
<dd>Description of the BSA files [[Daggerfall:MAPS.BSA|MAPS.BSA]], [[Daggerfall:ARCH3D.BSA|ARCH3D.BSA]], and [[Daggerfall:BLOCKS.BSA|BLOCKS.BSA]], which contain most of the map and 3D object information for the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:WOODS.WLD format|WOODS.WLD Format]]</dt>
<dd>Description of the WOODS.WLD format which appears to give information about the creation of landscape within the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Image formats|Image Formats]]</dt>
<dd>Close to complete formats for all of the IMG, CIF, Texture, PAL, and COL image and palette files.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Quest hacking guide|Quest Hacking Guide]]</dt>
<dd>A text file detailing the formats of the QRC and QBN files which contain the quest data.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Region Numbers|Region Numbers]]</dt>
<dd>List of all map areas and their indices used in the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Hacking FALL.EXE|Hacking FALL.EXE]]</dt>
<dd>How to allow attributes and skills to exceed 100 by hacking the v2.13 FALL.EXE file.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:SAVEGAME.DAT description|SAVEGAME.DAT Description]]</dt>
<dd>A good partially complete description of the format and structure of the save game file.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Quest pseudo-codes|Quest Pseudo-Codes]]</dt>
<dd>Lengthy description of the pseudo section used in the QBN quest files.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Custom Artifacts|Custom Artifacts]]</dt>
<dd>Information on the format of the MAGIC.DEF and how to add artifacts into the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:SPELLS.STD_indices|SPELLS.STD indices]]</dt>
<dd>Index codes for the spells in the game.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:TEXT.RSC format|TEXT.RSC Format]]</dt>
<dd>Describes the structure of the file TEXT.RSC.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Book format|Book format]]</dt>
<dd>The almost complete format to the book files found in the ARENA2\BOOKS directory.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Texture files|Texture Files]]</dt>
<dd>Information on deciphering some of the texture files, mostly on changing woman clothing images.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Save Game Offsets|Save Game Offsets]]</dt>
<dd>A close to complete listing of hex offsets and their description in Daggerfall save games.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:DFQEdit manual|DFQEdit Manual]]</dt>
<dd>The HTML manual page for the start of a close to complete quest editor for Daggerfall.</dd>
<dt>[[Daggerfall:Hacking Items|Hacking Items]]</dt>
<dd>A very complete guide telling one how to change around item images to those not normally seen in the game.</dd>
</dl>

==Hacking Programs==
<dl>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dftext.zip DFTEXT.ZIP] - 50kb</dt>
<dd>Add, modify, extract, or delete texts from the file TEXT.RSC, DOS program.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/defedit.zip DEFEDIT.ZIP] - 80kb</dt>
<dd>Add, modify, or delete magical items+artifacts from the MAGIC.DEF file, DOS program.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/wqe14exe.zip WinQEdit.ZIP v1.4] - 320kb</dt>
<dd>Good versatile quest editor for Win95.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/andypic.zip ANDYPIC.ZIP] - 43kb</dt>
<dd>An improvement over the DagPic utility allowing one to view just about all IMG, CIF, and texture files in the game. Cannot yet successfully import pictures into all texture formats (if you don't change the images size it works better). Same command prompt syntax as DagPic with several expanded options.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/bookedit.zip BOOKEDIT.ZIP] - 101kb</dt>
<dd>Edit and add your own book in the game, DOS program.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dfitem.zip DFITEM.ZIP v0.1b] - 80kb</dt>
<dd>DOS program to edit any item in you savegame! Change name, uses, cost, enchantments, type, picture and more. Unzip into your Daggerfall directory.</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dfhack.zip DFHACK.ZIP] - 280kb</dt>
<dd>Save game editor for Windows. Can edit/view just about everything including items, reputation in addition to the normal stats/skills etc...</dd>
<dt>[http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/editbio.zip EDITBIO.ZIP] - 111kb</dt>
<dd>Edit your biography file created during character creation.</dd>
</dl>

==Hacking Links==
*[http://www.dfworkshop.net/ Daggerfall Workshop] and its [http://forums.dfworkshop.net/ forums] are frequented by several prominent Daggerfall hackers.
*[http://www.svatopluk.com/ King Svatopluk's Court] hosts a fair selection of Daggerfall hacking tools and documents.
*[http://www.geocities.com/timessquare/2997/dagger.html Save Game Hex List]—Contains a good list of hex codes for the save game to give yourself items, armor, weapons, etc.

==Running Without the CD==
Daggerfall can be run without the CD to improve game speed and prevent the annoyance of having to switch CDs when playing various games.

* Install the game with the largest install size.
* Copy all the files from the DAGGER/ARENA2 directory on the CD to the ARENA2 directory on your hard drive where you installed the game. There are some large files which are not installed by the largest install size.
* Install the latest patch as desired.
* Edit the Z.CFG file in your ''Daggerfall'' directory. Change the <tt>PATHCD</tt> value to match that of the <tt>PATH</tt> value.
* To run the game don't use <tt>DAGGER.EXE</tt> as you would normally, but instead run the command <tt>FALL.EXE Z.CFG</tt>. You can create a batch file to prevent having to type it each time, but don't name it <tt>DAGGER.BAT</tt>.
* Some say you need to add the line <tt>set dos4gvm=@dagger.vmc</tt> to your <tt>Autoexec</tt> or your custom batch file, though the game will run without it.

==Becoming a Lich==
I thought I'd put a slight new twist in the game and try to become a lich. This would be essentially similar to a vampire with a few differences. The first step is, of course, to become a vampire as one normally would. Once that has been accompished you'll need to edit several files.

* Change your face into that of a lich. Vampire faces are contained in the file VAMP00i0.CIF. I've created a skeleton like face which is available on the [http://www.uesp.net/dagger/daggraph.shtml Daggerfall Graphics Page] which will work fine. You will need to use Andypic and play with the X and Y position of the picture to get it right. Probably the easier way is to extract your vampire face and load it up into an editor. Copy the skeleton face into it and shift it until the eyes match up. Feel free to create your own 'lich' face, I'd love to see it.
* Change your body into that of a lich. I've created a semi-decent skeleton also available on the Daggerfall Graphics Page. Find your body image which can be found in the BODY0?i?.IMG files. You will probably need to change the size and position of the image a bit to match depending on your race. The skeleton was made for a male Redguard. It doesn't fit everthing 100% since everything is much skinnier than normal so you'll have to wear things to cover it up....of course you'll have to wear things anyways otherwise people would be fleeing in terror.
* Edit your savegame to make yourself immune to poison and disease. Your undead now and can't be affected by either. Also make yourself resistant to shock since this has a lesser effect on you.
* Give yourself a critical weakness to fire...very deadly to undead. Also give yourself low tolerance to cold (wouldn't want those bones to shatter now would we). Any previous weaknesses/resistances etc... other than those mentioned can be left as is.
* Give yourself a bonus to hit undead. Since you are one of the more powerful undead yourself, you have 'insight' or power over the other beings. Give yourself a phobia of humans since they generally want to kill you in nasty ways.
* In order for your reputation not to drop (you are a walking skeleton after all), you must do several things. First, ensure that you are covered as much as possible from head to toe at all times. Next, to futhur ensure people don't recognize you for who you really are, make a magical item to 'disguise' your looks. It can be any magical item really, just make it give it powerful enchantments including the soul of a lich. It probably should have a spell that is cast at all times although I find this annoying, I'll leave it up to you.

That is it really, not too much different than a vampire, but your character portrait is now real cool. Feel free to make comments or suggestions on this.

==Changing the Wagon Weight Limit==
Changing the size of the wagon is simple, once you know the location of the bytes. In version 2.13 of Daggerfall the offset is 0xDFE13. Note that you must multiply the desired max weight by four when changing it (ie, a max weight of 1000 lbs is the hex code A00F). The max value for the weight is most likely in the area of 16000 lbs. To change the text that goes along with this, check out the offset 0x1B06AC, making sure not to exceed the length of the string that is there. If you don't want to do this hex-editting yourself, check out the utility [http://www.uesp.net/file.shtml?dagger/files/dfwagon.zip DFWAGON.ZIP] which allows you to change the value and the text string.

==Repairing with Hex Editing==
by Shadow Jack 
I can't find my write up so here it is again. Pardon me if I cover points you already know. If you need a hex editor, I recommend Hex Workshop, which I got off the net from a Excite search (+hex +editor +win95). Remember it's always a good idea to backup the file first (HW will prompt you to do a backup if make changes).

The save games are in the Dagger directory under subdirectories SAVE0 through SAVE5 in the following order according to the save screen....

<table border=2 cellpadding=7 cellspacing=0>
<tr><td width=50>SAVE0</td><td width=50>SAVE3</td></tr>
<tr><td>SAVE1</td><td>SAVE4</td></tr>
<tr><td>SAVE2</td><td>SAVE5</td></tr>
</table>

The save game file is savetree.dat.

The "name" of the save game is in a file called savename.txt if you want to verify that you have the right save.

Look for the item you want to repair (like %it of Orc Strength or Leaping %it), your items will generally follow your name and class name. Locate the beginning of the name then count forward 44 bytes. Position 44-45 are current status and 46-47 are max status. I generally set these 4 bytes to FF7F FF7F. This gives 32000+ uses before breakage. To help insure you are in the right place, for magic items, the two bytes right before that (42-43) usually start with a 2 (2###).

This works for ALL item, not just magical ones. One of these days, I'll play with those other two bytes and see if I can't figure out how to MAKE magic items ;-)

==Fixing the Daedric Cuirass Bug and 'Repairing' Items==
Someone asked if you could use a hex editor to fix the broken Daedric Cuirasses and occasionally broken Daedric Greaves that the shops sell or that you find on monsters. Yes. In your hex editor find the beginning of the word Cuirass. In the file SAVETREE.DAT from your SAVEn directory Words 44, 45, 46 and 47 offset from the C in Cuirass will be something like 00H 80H 00H 80H. These two 2-byte hex words are "hits remaining" and "max hits" for the Cuirass. When it's new they should match. Once it's taken damage the hits remaining is reduced by the amount of the damage. Unfortunately, the word 8000H when taken as a signed integer is negative and the program believes anything that has a negative value is broken. Therefore the cuirass is broken, even though it's new. So, to make the new Cuirass not broken, change the values to FFH 7FH FFH 7FH for the words offset by 44, 45, 46 and 47 respectively. (This is reducing the max hits for the Cuirass from 32768 to 32767.)

You can also use this information to "fix" magic items (just use a hex editor to ake the two hex words match) until Bethesda fixes the "repairs objects" magic enchantment so that it works in the patched versions.

Be sure to make a backup of SAVETREE.DAT before messing with it. '''NOTE:''' This is fixed in patch v1.79.

==Changing Item Materials==
by Leonard Miyata, J. Carl Smith, and Matthew O. Avent 
Ok, so you're at bytes 44 or so doing "self repairs" on your magic weapons and armor, right? Well, you get to thinking about how ugly that leather cuirass looks. You decide to change it. So, you go down from the 44th "repair byte" to byte 50. This controls the style of the armor. You have to experiment to find out which is which, but if you go too high or too low, your armor disappears. Keep that in mind. Anyway, so you change it to look like that cool breastplate. But then you think, "wait... wouldn't it look better as, DAEDRIC?" sure it would! So, you move over 4 bytes to a 0#. Change this to a 09 (these numbers actually coorospond to the ones on the biog*.* edit list, cool huh?). Now, this WON'T change the color. So if you like the ebony color better than the daedric, hop over two more bytes (all this is to the right btw). Here you'll see a 1#. change this to a 17 (this matches the color of the type of material, aka 19 for daedric, 18 for orc, etc). Well, that's it. Have fun with that daedric!

<pre>
Bytes 44-47: Repair Bytes
Byte 50: Armor Style (Leather, Plate, etc...)
Byte 54: Armor Type (Steel, Silver, Daedric etc...)
Byte 56: Armor Colour
</pre>

Somthing to add to Changing Item Material Via Hex-editing
In addition to the offset from Start of Item Name,

<pre>
Byte 57: Item Weight (Weight = Byte value X 0.25 lbs)
</pre>

These Byte modifications are only Valid with Plate armor and do not work with Chain/Leather armor. Other artifact characteristics (Net worth, embedded magic) are not effected by the byte change, so if you modify a cheap iron dagger into a feather weight Daedric Dagger, its selling price is still only as a cheap iron dagger.

One important thing to note: byte 54 is the Armor Material, and byte 55 is the armor TYPE. 0 is leather, 1 is chain, 2 is plate. I believe 3 is Crystal, 4 is Glass, and 5 and up are weird things like "of Lightning" and the like. Values past 2 add obscene amounts to your armor rating - like +58, or +2470. Of course, there is a maximum practical value, beyond which the game seems to ignore any further armor ratings. (This could simply be like the AD&D 'natural 20' rule, where a certain percent-score on the to-hit check results in an automatic hit, regardless of defenders' AC.)

==Fixing the Negative Spell Point Bug==
by Jim Okamura 
This is a bug - nobody anticipated it because you shouldn't be able to select both low magic ability and no magic in daylight at the same time. What happens is that the "No Magic" part reduces your spellpoints to zero, then the low magic tries to further reduce that. Result is you have -32768 SP.

If you have a hex-editor, you can fix it. Use the editor to find your character's name in the savetree.dat file. Then count 565 bytes toward the end of the file from the first letter in your character's name - this byte should have a value of '''X3''' where '''X''' is:

* 0 if you have 3X Int in SP
* 1 if you have 1X Int in SP (SP = Int)
* 2 if you have 2X Int in SP
* 4 if you have 1.75X Int in SP

The 3 is because you selected both no magic and low magic. Change the 3 to a zero if you don't want either of these limitations. Make it 1 for no magic in daylight or 2 for low magic in daylight (or just make the whole byte zero - that gives you 3X INT in SP and no magic handicaps).

==Monster Reflex Byte Location==
The monster reflex byte is location 130 bytes (82 bytes HEX) from the beginning of the character's name in the file SAVETREE.DAT found in the save game directories. The byte values range from 0 (Highest) to 4(Lowest). Alternatively you can download a program to do this automatically from the [http://www.uesp.net/dagger/files/dagfiles.shtml Files Area] if you aren't familiar with hex editted binary files.

==Increasing View Distance==
by Thor-Eirik Larsen 
The first thing that really got on my nerves when I ventured into the wonderful world of Tamriel, was the limited view. I figured I had to fix that particular "bug". In the file savetree.dat, Daggerfall stores the sound/music/detail settings as vars.

Now, the program itself does not allow you to enlarge the red bar beyond the limits of clicking-area, but a simple hex-editor does, if you only manage to locate the vars. As the size differs slightly from time to time, one cannot use the same offset for every savefile. To find the vars, just max the bars, save, let your hex-editor search the savetree.dat for these hex-values 7F,7F,00,7F,00 (the first byte being the detail, you may have to search for 7E's instead), and change the detail to FF!!!! When you load your game, you'll notice that your range has been doubled making everything look much better! (Not as good as unlimited range, but beats the hell out of the first one :))

==Changing into Monsters==
by m00se 
Dunno if this would be in everyone's game. As I've said before, I hack considerably at my .exe [which I'd release if Bethesda would let me, cause I'm playin' a different game now. The 'Collectors' version, per se. (I've over 550 different items on my ship, as well as 150+ different paintings.)], but in my game, if one gets hit in at range while having The Wabbajack equipped, you are polymorphed into some other creature. I've screenshots of me being a rat, a lich and something else. Sometimes (often) when you go to view your character on the stats screen, it'll crash, which makes be beleive I didn't miss something when I was reading about the artifacts. It's interesting, because it TOTALLY skews your stats, and it RESETS the character. I don't know if any of these mutants would be playable due to stability.

[[Category:Daggerfall Hacking|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Daggerfall Mod:SPELLS.STD indices

2007-03-08T03:32:06Z

FMan: removed personal credit

== SPELLS.STD Index and Analysis ==
The following is the list of spell type codes for the role-playing game "The Elder Scrolls, Chapter II: Daggerfall". This information was compiled using a third-party editor program called DFSPELL.EXE. I believe its author is Dave Humphrey, founder and administrator of the Unofficial Elder Scrolls Pages.

=== Spell/Effect Type ===
In DFSpell.exe, there are two fields for a spell's type. The second field may be thought of as the sub-type. When the subtype is -1, there is only one variant of the spell. When there are multiple variants, the subtypes start at 0 and continue upwards from there. The spells with the largest number of variants never exceed 9.

Daggerfall's spells can only have 3 effects, thus there are many spells with 1 effect and the other two possible effects have to be catagorized as type -1 -1 in order not to call an effect.

There are a number of spell effect types that were removed from the game, though their type numbers call the text description for them when viewed in the game. The verified spell effects types range from -1 to 47. Some tests have been done of types beyond 47, but in-game they tend to either call the description for the type 47 spell effects (all of which were removed by patches) or semi-coherent gibberish. The conclusion is that such spells are themselves gibberish to the game and have no utility for players.

<pre>
-1 -1 : (nothing)
0 -1 : Paralysis
1 0 : Continuous Damage -- Health
1 1 : Continuous Damage -- Stamina
1 2 : Continuous Damage -- Spell Points
2 -1 : Create Item
3 0 : Cure -- Disease
3 1 : Cure -- Poison
3 2 : Cure -- Paralysis
4 0 : Damage -- Health
4 1 : Damage -- Stamina
4 2 : Damage -- Spell Points
5 -1 : Disintegrate
6 0 : Dispell -- Magic
6 1 : Dispell -- Undead
6 2 : Dispell -- Daedra
7 0 : Drain -- Strength
7 1 : Drain -- Intelligence
7 2 : Drain -- Willpower
7 3 : Drain -- Agility
7 4 : Drain -- Endurance
7 5 : Drain -- Personality
7 6 : Drain -- Luck
8 0 : Resist -- Fire
8 1 : Resist -- Cold
8 2 : Resist -- Poison
8 3 : Resist -- Shock
9 0 : Increase -- Strength
9 1 : Increase -- Intelligence
9 2 : Increase -- Willpower
9 3 : Increase -- Agility
9 4 : Increase -- Endurance
9 5 : Increase -- Personality
9 6 : Increase -- Speed
9 7 : Increase -- Luck
10 0 : Heal -- Strength
10 1 : Heal -- Intelligence
10 2 : Heal -- Willpower
10 3 : Heal -- Agility
10 4 : Heal -- Endurance
10 5 : Heal -- Personality
10 6 : Heal -- Speed
10 7 : Heal -- Luck
10 8 : Heal -- Health
10 9 : Heal -- Stamina
11 0 : Leech -- Strength
11 1 : Leech -- Intelligence
11 2 : Leech -- Willpower
11 3 : Leech -- Agility
11 4 : Leech -- Endurance
11 5 : Leech -- Personality
11 6 : Leech -- Speed
11 7 : Leech -- Luck
11 8 : Leech -- Health
11 9 : Leech -- Stamina
12 -1 : Soul Trap
13 0 : Invisibility -- Normal
13 1 : Invisibility -- True
14 -1 : Levitate
15 -1 : Light
16 -1 : Lock
17 -1 : Open
18 -1 : Regenerate Health
19 -1 : Silence
20 -1 : Spell Absorption
21 -1 : Spell Reflection
22 -1 : Spell Resistance
23 0 : Chameleon -- Normal
23 1 : Chameleon -- True
24 0 : Shadow Form -- Normal
24 1 : Shadow Form -- True
25 -1 : Slowfall
26 -1 : Climbing
27 -1 : Jumping
28 -1 : Free Action
29 -1 : Lycanthropy
30 -1 : Water Breathing
31 -1 : Water Walking
32 -1 : Dimunition (removed)
33 0 : Calm -- Animal
33 1 : Calm -- Undead
33 2 : Calm -- Humanoid
34 -1 : Charm Mortal
35 -1 : Shield
36 -1 : Telekinesis (removed)
37 -1 : Astral Travel (removed)
38 -1 : Etherealness (removed)
39 0 : Detect -- Magic
39 1 : Detect -- Enemy
39 2 : Detect -- Treasure
40 -1 : Identify
41 -1 : Wizard Sight (removed)
42 -1 : Darkness (removed)
43 -1 : Recall
44 -1 : Tongues
45 -1 : Intensify Fire (removed)
46 -1 : Diminish Fire (removed)
47 0 : Wall of Stone (removed)
47 1 : Wall of Fire (removed)
47 2 : Wall of Frost (removed)
47 3 : Wall of Poison (removed)
</pre>

=== Spell Catalogue ===
The following is the catalogue of spells from Daggerfall. Each spell has an index number in that catalogue saved as the file SPELLS.STD.

Many of these indices are called by another file called MAGIC.DEF that describes the "circinate" spells as offered for sale by certain guilds and required for certain quests. Spells so used are noted with a "*" behind their STD # for each time used.

Also, certain classes have spells when starting the game and these are indicated with a "~" behind their index number.

Note that index number 58 is used twice (for "Holy Touch" and "Holy Word") and these spells are tagged with a "?" behind their STD #.

<pre><nowiki>
Name of Spell Icon# STD # Element Spell Target Cost Effect number 1 Duratn. Chance Magnitude Effect number 2 Duratn. Chance Magnitude Effect number 3 Duratn. Chance Magnitude

Fenrik's Door Jam 1 1 ~ Magic Caster 0 Lock door 1+1/25 6+1/10
Bouyancy 2 2 ~ Cold Caster 0 Water Walking 1+1/1
Frostbite 2 3 Cold Target:Touch 0 Damage Health 1to9+1to3/2
Levitate 2 4 * Magic Caster 50 Levitate 2+1/1
Light 2 5 * Magic Caster 150 Light 1+4/1
Invisibility 2 6 Magic Caster 145 Invisible:Norm. 3+2/1
Wizard's Fire 2 7 * Fire Target:Range 125 Damage Health 1to15+1to4/1
Shock 2 8 *~ Shock Target:Touch 225 Damage Health 1to20+1to4/1
Strength Leech 2 9 Magic Target:Touch 245 Drain Strength 5+1/1 1to9+1to1/1
Free Action 2 10 * Magic Caster 260 Cure Paralysis 20+5/1
Resist Cold 2 11 Magic Caster 350 Resist Cold 2+1/1 30+5/1
Resist Fire 2 12 Magic Caster 350 Resist Fire 2+1/1 30+5/1
Resist Shock 2 13 Magic Caster 350 Resist Shock 2+1/1 30+5/1
Fireball 2 14 * Fire Area:Range 130 Damage Health 1to1+1to7/1
Cure Poison 2 15 * Magic Caster 400 Cure Poison 60+2/1
Ice Bolt 2 16 Cold Target:Range 245 Damage Health 1to35+1to5/1
Shield 2 17 * Magic Caster 400 Shield 5+2/1 1to12+1to1/1
Open 2 18 * Magic Caster 300 Open 20+2/1
Wizard Lock 1 19 * Magic Caster 480 Lock 20+4/1
Ice Storm 2 20 * Cold Area:Range 195 Damage Health 1to30+1to5/1
(none) N/A 21
Spell Shield 1 22 Magic Caster 660 SpellResistance 1+1/1 50+2/1
Silence 2 23 * Magic Target:Touch 510 Silence 1+1/1 35+2/1
Troll's Blood 1 24 Magic Caster 660 Regen. Health 5+5/1 1to1+1to1/1
Fire Storm 2 25 * Fire Area:Caster 245 Damage Health 1to2+1to5/1
Resist Poison 1 26 Magic Caster 600 Resist Poison 1+1/1 50+5/1
Spell Drain 1 27 Magic Target:Range 295 Damage S.P. 1to50+1to5/1
Far Silence 2 28 * Magic Target:Range 510 Silence 1+1/1 35+2/1
Toxic Cloud 2 29 ** Poison Area:Caster 175 Damage Health 1to25+1to5/1
Shalidor's Mirror 47 30 Magic Caster 825 Spell Reflect. 1+1/1 35+1/1
Lightning 3 31 * Shock Target:Range 195 Damage Health 1to25+1to5/1
Gods' Fire 2 32 Fire Target:Range 2500 Damage Health 1to50+10to10/1
Wildfire 2 33 * Fire Target:Range 435 Cont.Dmg.Health 1+3/1 1to15+1to5/1
Wizard Rend 3 34 Magic Target:Touch 155 Damage SP 1to14+1to1/1 Paralysis 1+1/1 10+5/1
Medusa's Gaze 3 35 * Magic Target:Range 915 Paralysis 1+1/1 1+8/1
Force Bolt 1 36 * Magic Target:Range 275 Damage Health 1to30+1to10/1 Paralysis 1+1/1 10+5/1
Slowfalling 13 37 *~ Magic Caster 60 Slow Fall 3+1/1
Jumping 1 38 Magic Caster 0 Jumping 3+1/1
Spell Resistance 11 39 Magic Caster 0 SpellResistance 1+1/1 25+2/1
Stamina 3 40 * Magic Caster 50 Heal Stamina 1to8+2to2/1
Water Walking 2 41 * Magic Caster 15 Water Walking 5+2/1
Water Breathing 6 42 Magic Caster 15 Water Breathing 5+2/1
(none) N/A 43
Chameleon 2 44 ~ Magic Caster 50 Chameleon:Norm. 3+1/1
Shadow Form 15 45 Magic Caster 50 Shadow: Normal 1+1/1
Spell Reflection 9 46 Magic Caster 735 Spell Reflect. 1+1/1 10+5/1
Spell Absorbtion 25 47 Magic Caster 525 Spell Absorb. 1+1/1 10+5/1
(none) 48
Tongues 44 49 Magic Caster 535 Tongues 1+1/1 20+2/1
Paralysis 2 50 Magic Target:Touch 400 Paralysis 3+1/1 25+2/1
Sleep 2 51 Magic Target:Range 265 Cont.Dmg. Stam. 5+2/1 1to15+1to5/1
Vampiric Touch 2 52 Magic Target:Touch 290 Leech Health 5+2/1 1to15+1to5/1
Hand of Sleep 1 53 Magic Target:Touch 265 Cont.Dmg. Stam 5+2/1 1to15+1to5/1
Magicka Leech 47 54 Magic Target:Touch 315 Cont.Dmg. SP 5+2/1 1to15+1to5/1
Sphere of Negation 2 55 * Magic Target:Range 950 Disintegrate 20+2/1
Hand of Decay 39 56 Magic Target:Touch 550 Disintegrate 10+3/1
Banish Daedra 2 57 Magic Target:Touch 1075 Dispell Daedra 10+5/1
Holy Word 12 58 ? Magic Area:Caster 550 Dispell Undead 10+2/1
Holy Touch 12 58 ? Magic Target:Touch 550 Dispell Undead 10+2/1
Null Magicka 31 59 Magic Target:Touch 790 Dispell Magic 10+2/1
Balyna's Antidote 49 60 Magic Caster 325 Cure Poison 15+5/1
Cure Disease 2 61 Magic Caster 300 Cure Disease 15+5/1
Soul Trap 36 62 Magic Target:Touch 745 Soul Trap 10+2/1 10+5/1
(none) N/A 63
Heal 3 64 * Magic Caster 145 Heal Health 1to10+5to5/1
(none) N/A 65
Spider Touch 2 66 Magic Target:Touch 890 Paralysis 1+1/1 5+15/1
Energy Leech 33 67 Magic Target:Touch 570 Leech Stamina 1to10+5to5/1
(none) N/A 68
(none) N/A 69
(none) N/A 70
!Nux Vomica 2 71 Magic Target:Touch 75 Cont.Dmg.Health 1+2/1 1to1+1to3/1
!Arsenic 5 72 Magic Target:Touch 0 Cont.Dmg.Health 4+60/1 1to1+1to1/1
!Moonseed 1 73 Magic Target:Touch 70 Cont.Dmg.Health 1+1/1 1to1+2to2/1 Paralysis 1+1/1 1+20/1
!Drothweed 3 74 Magic Target:Touch 315 Drain Strength 1+4/1 1to1+2to2/1 Drain Agility 1+4/1 1to1+2to2/1 Drain Speed 1+4/1 1to1+2to2/1
!Somnalius 2 75 Magic Target:Touch 265 Cont.Dmg. Stam. 1+2/1 1to1+15to15/1
!Phyrric Acid 1 76 Magic Target:Touch 85 Cont.Dmg.Health 1+2/2
!Magebane 3 77 Magic Target:Touch 170 Cont.Dmg. SP 5+4/1 1to1+1to3/1 Drain Willpower 1+4/1 1to1+1to3/1
!Thyrwort 16 78 Magic Target:Touch 310 Drain PER 1to10+4to4/1 Drain Willpower 1to10+4to4/1
!Indulcet 3 79 Magic Target:Touch 145 Cont.Dmg. Stam. 1+4/2 1to4+3to3/1 Increase Luck 1+5/1
!Sursum 12 80 Magic Target:Touch 360 Drain INT 1+1/3 1to10+6to6/1 Increase STR 1+1/1 1to10+6to6/1
!Questro Vil 3 81 Magic Target:Touch 50 Heal Stamina 1to1+3to3/1 Drain Willpower 1+4/5 1to1+3to3/1
Orc Strength 1 82 * Magic Caster 385 Increase STR 5+1/1 1to10+2to2/1
Wisdom 5 83 * Magic Caster 445 Increase INT 5+1/1 1to10+3to3/1
Iron Will 45 84 * Magic Caster 445 Increase WIL 5+1/1 1to10+3to3/1
Nimbleness 1 85 * Magic Caster 445 Increase AGI 5+1/1 1to10+3to3/1
Feet of Notorgo 25 86 * Magic Caster 445 Increase SPD 5+1/1 1to10+3to3/1
Fortitude 47 87 * Magic Caster 445 Increase END 5+1/1 1to10+3to3/1
Charisma 44 88 * Magic Caster 445 Increase PER 5+1/1 1to10+3to4/1
Jack of Trades 4 89 * Magic Caster 445 Increase LUC 5+1/1 1to10+3to3/1
Charm Mortal 6 90 Magic Target:Touch 2950 Charm Mortal 5+5/1 10+10/1
Calm Humanoid 2 91 Magic Target:Touch 2950 Calm Human 5+5/1 10+10/1
!Lycanthropy 10 92 Magic Caster 160 Lycanthropy 1+1/1 1+1/1 1to1+1to1/1
(none) N/A 93
Recall 1 94 Magic Caster 0 Recall 1+1/1
(none) N/A 95
(none) N/A 96
Balyna's Balm 3 97 ~ Magic Caster 0 Heal Health 1to1+2to10/2
Quiet Undead 2 98 Magic Target:Touch 2950 Calm Undead 5+5/1 10+10/1
Tame 2 99 Magic Target:Touch 2950 Calm Animal 5+5/1 10+10/1
</nowiki></pre>

[[Category:Daggerfall Hacking|{{PAGENAME}}]]

Morrowind:Morrowind

2007-03-08T03:28:13Z

FMan: /* Gameplay Information */ added a link

[[Category:Morrowind]] [[Category:Move Protection|{{PAGENAME}}]]
[[Image:Morrowind title.jpg|right|thumb|Morrowind Box Art]]

'''Morrowind''' is the third installment in the [[Elder Scrolls]] series. The game takes place on the island of [[Tamriel:Vvardenfell|Vvardenfell]], a district in the [[Morrowind:Dunmer|Dunmeri]] province of Morrowind.

{| class="wikitable" style="font-size: 88%; float: right;"
|-
! PC Release Date
| May 5th, 2002
|-
! Xbox Release Date
| June 6th, 2002
|-
! Setting
| [[Tamriel:Vvardenfell|Vvardenfell]], [[Tamriel:Morrowind|Morrowind]]
|}

==Character Information==
* '''[[Morrowind:Attributes|Attributes]]''' - A guide to the character attributes.
* '''[[Morrowind:Birthsigns|Birthsigns]]''' – A guide to the birthsigns, their granted abilities and in-game influence, in Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Classes|Classes]]''' – Guide to character creation, using pre-compiled and custom classes.
* '''[[Morrowind:Diseases|Diseases]]''' – A complete catalogue of all diseases contractable within the bounds of Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Races|Races]]''' – A thorough explanation of the defining characteristics of each race found within Morrowind, including their starting attributes and special abilities.
* '''[[Morrowind:Skills|Skills]]''' – A definitive guide to character-based skills, with descriptions where applicable.
* '''[[Morrowind:Vampires|Vampires]]''' – Complete guide to vampires in Morrowind featuring information on becoming a vampire, vampire clans, how to cure vampirism, and vampire-based quests.

==Gameplay Information==
* '''[[Morrowind:Quests|Quest Walkthroughs]]''' – Detailed guides related to all major and minor in-game quests, including those of the central storyline.
* '''[[Morrowind:Alchemy|Alchemy]]''' – A thorough guide to alchemical ingredients and their effects.
* '''[[Morrowind:Artifacts|Artifacts]]''' – A complete and descriptive list of all magical items and artifacts in Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Combat|Combat]]''' – A guide to the combat system in Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Enchant|Enchanting]]''' – An exhaustive guide to every aspect of enchanting items.
* '''[[Morrowind:Hints|Hints]]''' – A variety of gameplay tips to further your enjoyment of the game.
* '''[[Morrowind:Item List|Item List]]''' – Complete directory of all in-game items.
* '''[[Morrowind:Items|Items]]''' – Listing of items with more in-depth info.
* '''[[Morrowind:Item Materials and Styles|Item Materials and Styles]]''' – A complete archive of all armour and weapons available in Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Rare Items|Rare Items]]''' – A complete list, including locations, of the most sought after items. Includes Daedric armour and weaponry.
* '''[[Morrowind:Reputation|Reputation]]''' - List of quests that give you fame points.
* '''[[Morrowind:Spells|Spells]]''' – A complete list of all purchasable spells in the game.
* '''[[Morrowind:Spell Effects|Spell Effects]]''' – An all-inclusive list of each in-game spell and their effect.

==World Information==
* '''[[Morrowind:Books|Books]]''' – A categorical list of all books and other in-game literature; includes contents of all noted titles.
* '''[[Morrowind:Factions|Factions]]''' – A detailed guide of all facets related to in-game factions.
* '''[[Morrowind:Faction Tables|Faction Tables]]''' – Statistics upon the various in-game factions.
* '''[[Morrowind:Houses|Houses]]''' – A list of the best locations to take up abode or simply turn into a museum.
* '''[[Morrowind:Maps|Maps]]''' – Assorted interactive and reference maps of in-game geographical features.
* '''[[Morrowind:Master Trainers|Master Trainers]]''' – A list of trainers which may raise a skill to its maximum level.
* '''[[Morrowind:Monsters|Monsters]]''' – A concise directory of all encounterable in-game monsters, including their statistics and combat strategies.
* '''[[Morrowind:People|People]]''' – A catalog of all NPCs in the game.
* '''[[Morrowind:places|Places]]''' – A guide to the towns, strongholds, cities, and ruins scattered about Vvardenfell. Includes information on Velothi Towers, Dwemer ancestral tombs, and landmarks of interest.
* '''[[Morrowind:Services|Services]]''' – A comprehensive directory of the various services offered in Vvardenfell establishments.
* '''[[Morrowind:Spell Merchant Lists|Spell Merchants]]''' – A complete list of spell merchants.
* '''[[Morrowind:Trainers|Trainers]]''' – A list of the various trainers, and those skills they modify, in Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Transport|Transportation]]''' – A definitive guide to the various modes of transportation available in Morrowind. Notes both methods of transportation and their destinations.

==Mod Resources==
* '''[[Morrowind:Official Plug-ins|Official Plug-ins]]''' – A list of the official plug-ins released by Bethesda.
* '''[[Tes3Mod:Mods|Mods]]''' – Mods lists for [[Tes3Mod:Better Bodies|Better Bodies]] and [[Tes3Mod:World Replacers|World Replacers]]. Also, project info for a few other mods.
* '''[[Tes3Mod:Modding|Modding]]''' – Miscellaneous info on creating and editing mods.
* '''[[Tes3Mod:Mod Management|Mod Management]]''' – Info on managing mods and savegames.
* '''[[Morrowind:Ini_Settings|Morrowind.ini]]''' – Tips and guidelines on editing the Morrowind.ini file.

==Official Expansions==
* '''[[Tribunal:Tribunal|Tribunal]]''' – Featuring Morrowind's mainland capital city of Mournhold, Tribunal takes you from the island of Vvardenfell into a new realm of excitement and daring, focused on the bitter intrigues of both the reigning clergy and nobility.
* '''[[Bloodmoon:Bloodmoon|Bloodmoon]]''' – In this second official expansion pack, you find yourself thrust into a wild, gleaming white-world of snow and ice on the small and perilous island of Solstheim.

==Previews and Reviews==
* '''[[Morrowind:Quick Info|Summary]]''' – Review a brief summation of technical data including the minimum system requirements, a gameplay synopsis, and various useful links.
* '''[http://www.uesp.net/morrow/screenshots/morss.shtml Screenshots]''' – Peruse a myriad of in-game screenshots, courtesy of the former UESP.
* '''[http://www.uesp.net/morrow/preview/morart.shtml Concept Art]''' – Admire an archive of concept and rendered art released during the game's developement, courtesy of the former UESP.
* '''[[Morrowind:Developement Team|Development Team]]''' – A compilation of brief biographies regarding the official Bethesda team who created the game.
* '''[[Morrowind:Interview with a Dark Elf|Interview with a Dark Elf]]''' – A fascinating interview with a Dark Elf from Morrowind (as written by Bethesda employees) concerning both his homeland and people.

==Miscellaneous Information==
* '''[[Morrowind:Cheats|Cheats]]''' – Various cheats to modify and manipulate your game.
* '''[[Morrowind:Console|Console Commands]]''' – A guide to using the console in the PC version of Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Easter Eggs|Easter Eggs]]''' – A list of some of the random and outlandish secrets of Morrowind.
* '''[[Morrowind:Glitches|Glitches]]''' – A variety of features that somehow...just didn't belong.
* '''[[General:Links#Morrowind|Links]]''' – A directory of Morrowind-centric sites.
* '''[[Tamriel:Pantheons|Tamrielic Pantheons]]''' – A list of the major gods of Tamriel and those regions in which they are worshipped.

Morrowind Mod:MWEdit/Change Log v0.6.0

2007-03-08T03:23:43Z

FMan: dummy placeholder

{{proposeddeletion|outdated? no links to here}}
== Major Changes ==
* Merged with MWEditSE and MWE to include support for compiling extended script functions. See the ''CustomFunctions.dat'' file for more details.
* Significant improvements to the script compiler. Fixed many existing and new bugs. Now allows extended expressions if if() and while() statements. Added several missing functions like some console commands that can be used in scripts. Redid script testing by comparing MWEdit compiled output with that from the Construction Set. Output is identical in most cases.
* Almost halved loading speed by using an improved record indexing method.
* Dialogue INFOs will now display correctly.
* Fixed the crash some people experienced when opening a plugin (finally).
* Added undo the script editor.
* Added new options including disabled backup saves, custom game path, and disable forcing of strict object IDs.
* Added the 'extra file' option which allows plugins to be edited without needing to load their applicable masters. For example, this feature allows you to use the 'player' NPC object without needing to load Morrowind.esm or create a temporary player.
* Various bug fixes and UI improvements all around.
* Added script indent command which automatically indents a script according to various options.

== Detailed Change Log ==
* Improved indexing of records which roughly halves the loading time and speeds up record lookups in general.
* Checks for duplicate IDs greatly speeded up using the improved record indexing.
* Added link to UESP Wiki on the function help page (jumps to the appropriate article).
* Added the custom game data path to the options. If this value is blank the default MW data path from the registry is used (if found). Specify a custom "Data Files" path if you wish to load files from an alternate game location.
* Fixed the bug where the open dialog would crash if it found a file with a date set far in the future.
* Merged in the v0.9.2a MWSE changes and custom function definitions. All custom functions are defined the "CustomFunctions.dat" file which allows one to add new function definitions as needed without requiring a recompile. See the data file for an explanation of how to edit/add new functions.
* Fixed bug in script compiler which would incorrectly output if() statements when they appeared directly after certain function calls.
* Added the "backup saves" option which allows you to disable the automatic save backup option which is enabled by default.
* Corrected the definition of the SetWereWolfAcrobatics function.
* The error view at the bottom of the script dialog now shows up initially (maybe).
* Added the "no compile prompt" option which disables the popup message box after a script is compiled. The final compile message is added to the end of the messages in the error list at the bottom of the script window.
* Added the "extra file" option. When this is enabled the given file is loaded and used if a certain record is not found in the current file. For example, the extra file contains the "player" record. If you load an ESP without the Morrowind.esm master file you can still compile scripts using the "player" object by enabling this option. Any record type is supported in the extra file (globals, NPCs, scripts, etc...).
* Added basic undo functionality to the script editor (Ctrl-Z, the right-click context menu or via the Undo button).
* Rearranged the function help page slightly and added the v0.9.2a MWSE functions. Note the MWSE functions don't yet have an article on the Wiki.
* Modified the weapon dialog to prevent scripts from being applied on thrown, arrow, and bolt weapons.
* New NPCs will have initial values set for their race, class, hair, and head if there are any available. This is to try to prevent the Construction Set from crashing when editing the AI packages of an NPC with a missing race/class/hair/head.
* Added the "Strict Object IDs" options. When enabled it works the same as previous versions where only certain new object IDs are allowed. When disabled you can use pretty much any ID as long as it starts with a letter, number, or underscore.
* Added a bunch of the "Toggle..." and other functions as used in MW-Enhanced to the custom function file.
* Fixed crash when cleaning a record.
* Changed the cell name to force an output of a terminating null character to try and prevent the cell renaming bug.
* Fixed bug when compiling scripts with the "extra file" enabled.
* Fixed generation of new Info/StartScript IDs which resulted in a bad ID in some cases.
* Corrected the default "extra file" name to match the distributed file.
* Fixed crash when dragging in script editor.
* Added undo for dragging text in script editor.
* Fixed crash/error in script editor caused by undo in some cases.
* Changed valid script if() syntax. Now allows operators, and functions on both sides and reference calls on the left side. Ensure to enclose both sides of the comparison operator in brackets to ensure it compiles correctly in the Construction Set, eg:
<pre>
WRONG: if ( Var1 * Var2 + 10 >= Var2/109 )
CORRECT: if ( (Var1 * Var2 + 10) >= (Var2/109) )
</pre>
* Changed how extra variables are checked at the end of function calls to prevent some errors when functions are used in if() statements.
* Tabs will now undo in the script editor.
* Added the 'Indent' button to the script toolbar. When used it attempts to automatically indent the script according to the current settings. This action can be undone.
* Added various identation settings in the options dialog.
* Added the following console functions to the script compiler:
::*CenterOnCell
::*CenterOnExterior
::*FillMap
::*FixMe
::*ToggleAI
::*ToggleCollision
::*ToggleFogOfWar
::*ToggleGodMode
::*ToggleMenus
::*ToggleSky
::*ToggleVanityMode
::*ToggleWorld Verified script output matches 100% to that produced in the CS with the above functions.
* Renamed "Ingrediant" to "Ingredient" on UI components.
* Changed the enchantment type "Cast Strikes" to "Cast On Strike".
* Added a bunch of AI data/flag columns to the right side of the NPC list.
* The 'ifx' and 'whilex' keywords now ident properly in the script editor.
* Fixed bug when renaming a record that would incorrectly change the name original record.
* The infos listed in a dialogue should now be correct. Dialogues also should be properly copied and renamed now along with their associated infos.
* When cleaning a record its edit window is automatically closed if open.
* Fixed misspelling of xRefType in function data files.
* Fixed a script compile bug with local variable references (eg: set SomeObject.LocalVar to 1) which would output incorrect data in some cases.
* Local variables can now be checked in if statements, ex:
<pre>
if ( SomeObject.LocalVar == 1 )
</pre>
* Checked output of whilex(i) using one character local variables as mentioned as a possible bug. Seems to be the same as multi-character variables and is the same output as MWEditSE.
* The while statement now accepts extended expression like the if statement. This also fixes a bug with some while statements being output incorrectly.
* Fixed bug when using extended functions within an if/while block (incorrect block size was begin output).
* Blank lines in scripts are no longer idented when using auto-indent.
* Script text is no longer selected when a script is opened.
* Added the "Script Compare" option to the test menu to help in quickly confirming compiled script output matches that of the CS. To use, create a plugin with one or more scripts to test. Compile one copy in the CS and one copy in MWEdit. Select the "Script Compare" and open the copy compiled in the CS. The script compare window will open and show the basic comparison results from the compiled data.
* Fixed bug which prevented the SameFaction function from being compiled.
* Fixed script compile bug related to outputting some functions incorrectly (was due to the recent change in how functions are parsed).
* The omitted comma warning in function calls has been disabled at all warning levels.
* Corrected the current values for the animation groups. The animation opcodes have changed sometime between the original version of the CS and the latest version.
* Added some missing animation codes added in a previous patch or expansion. It is unsure whether any of these codes have a valid use in a script.
::*Attack1
::*Attack2
::*Attack3
::*Block Hit
::*Block Start
::*Block Stop
::*Equip Attach
::*Equip Start
::*Equip Stop
::*Loop Start
::*Loop Stop
::*Self Release
::*Self Start
::*Self Stop
::*Shoot Attach
::*Shoot Follow Attach
::*Shoot Follow Start
::*Shoot Follow Stop
::*Shoot Max Attack
::*Shoot Min Attack
::*Shoot Min Hit
::*Shoot Release
::*Shoot Start
::*Slash Hit
::*Slash Large Follow Start
::*Slash Large Follow Stop
::*Slash Max Attack
::*Slash Medium Follow Start
::*Slash Medium Follow Stop
::*Slash Min Attack
::*Slash Min Hit
::*Slash Small Follow Start
::*Slash Small Follow Stop
::*Slash Start
::*Start
::*Stop
::*SwimAttack1
::*SwimAttack2
::*SwimAttack3
::*SwimDeath2
::*SwimDeath3
::*SwimHit1
::*SwimHit2
::*SwimHit3
::*Target Release
::*Target Start
::*Target Stop
::*Thrust Hit
::*Thrust Large Follow Start
::*Thrust Large Follow Stop
::*Thrust Max Attack
::*Thrust Medium Follow Start
::*Thrust Medium Follow Stop
::*Thrust Min Attack
::*Thrust Min Hit
::*Thrust Small Follow Start
::*Thrust Small Follow Stop
::*Thrust Start
::*Touch Release
::*Touch Start
::*Touch Stop
::*Unequip Detach
::*Unequip Start
::*Unequip Stop
:Animation groups with a space in them must be enclosed in quotes when used, eg:
<pre>
LoopGroup "Unequip Stop"
</pre>
:New groups that have multiple opcodes use the lowest opcode value. See [[Tes3Mod:Animation_Groups|Animation Groups]] for the complete list of valid animation groups.
* The script find dialog defaults to a down direction.
* Added the GetLOS function as as short form for GetLineOfSight.
* GetPCRank not accepts an optional faction parameter. Output in typical uses verified to 100% of that output by the CS.
* Removed the "Local variable 'var' conflicts an object ID" warning.
* Fixed bug with script undo when overwriting selected text with a character or paste operation.
* Fixed script compiler bug which would insert an extra "-" in if() statements in some cases.
* Lots of other minor improvements to the script compiler to ensure it matches the output of the CS as closely as possible.
* Included the MwEditScriptTest.esp file which was used to verify the output of the script compiler matches as close to possible the output from the CS. The scripts starting with "testbar" are known to contain issues:
::*testbad_aiwander: AiWander calls with reset are output strangely from the CS.
::*testbad_if3: If/set expressions with negatives are output differently by the CS but the final result is the same.
::*testbad_random1:
::*testbad_random2: Random is just messed up by the CS but the 'correct' output from MWEdit seems to work just fine.
:All other scripts are verified to compile in MWEdit to exactly the same as from the CS.
* Added the "Allow Bloodmoon" and "Allow Tribunal" options. When checked they allow the expansion specific script functions to be used (you'll receive an error/warning message otherwise). When "Allow Tribunal" is checked you can also use the extended set of animation groups. This feature does not currently recognize changes in existing functions made in the expansions, only new functions added in the expansion.
* Added a script compiler warning if a '34th' local variable is used.
* Improved the operation the function help command in the right-click context menu of the script editor.
* Added the 'Compile Active Scripts' command in the Edit menu which attempts to compile all scripts in the active plugin.

Morrowind Mod:MWE Functions

2007-03-08T03:19:53Z

FMan: dummy placeholder

{{proposeddeletion|outdated and irrelevant}}

[[Category:MWE|SoundRegister IDs]]
'''Reference Scan'''
:NextLiving
:SetReference
:ClearLiving

'''Sound Scan'''
:RegisterSound
:CheckSound

'''Spell Functions'''
:ModifyMin.Magnitude
:ModifyMax.Magnitude
:ModifyArea
:ModifyDuration
:ModifyRangeType
:ModifyCost
:ModifySEffectNumber

'''Other Functions'''
:TargetFunction
:ItemRemovalFunction
:EncumberanceFunction

Tribunal:Godsreach

2007-03-08T03:18:29Z

FMan: /* Craftsmen's Hall */ why was this place missing??

{{Tribunal Places}}
{{wip-mw}}
{{NeedsImage-mw}}

Godsreach is on the west side of [[Tribunal:Mournhold|Mournhold]] and serves as the living quarter. Located here are manors, a Craftmen's Hall, a tavern, and an artifact museum, all with their own services and [[#Related Quests|Related Quests]]. One of several entrances to the Mournhold [[Tribunal:Residential_Sewers|sewers]] is located in Godsreach. It is connected to the [[Tribunal:Temple_Courtyard|Temple Courtyard]] (Northwest Gate) and [[Tribunal:Plaza Brindisi Dorom|Plaza Brindisi Dorom]] (Southwest Gate).

==Manors==
===Velas Manor===
This manor is located near the Northwest Gate. The wizard inside recently moved in, and might be looking to make a [[Tribunal:The Summoner|display of power soon]]. '''Note:''' Beware of a possibe bug that may occur if the manor is unlocked before the quest, in which the resident will not attack at the appropriate time.

===Llethan Manor===
This manor is the home of the widow of a late king, Ravani Llethan. It is located in the northwast corner of Godsreach. The manor must be searched for a [[Tribunal:Evidence of Conspiracy|part of the main quest]] to find a note.

===Sadri/Thendas Manors===
Located across the street from the [[#Craftsman's Hall|Craftsman's Hall]], these two manors are both in the same building.

====Sadri Manor====
The Sadri Manor, the home of Golena Sadri is located down a small flight of stairs on the north(?). Sera Sadri has recently begun to act 'mad'. You can [[Tribunal:The Thief|help find the cause]] of this strange behavior. A forgotten area of the sewers is discovered during this quest.

====Thendas Manor====
The Thendas Manor is the home of the widow Arnsa Thendas. She currently holds the rare Droth Dagger, which should be acquired for [[Tribunal:Estate Sale|a quest]] given by Geon Auline, who is in a [[#Geon Auline's House|nearby house]].

===Vacant Manor===
The Vacant Manor, contrary to its name and abandoned first floor, is occupied by Felvan Ienith, Dovor Oren, and Olvyne Dobar, who are unhappy with the state of things between them and the nobles and want to do something about it. You are told to speak with Dovor Oren, who is also in the manor, to get details on their targets.

===Andoren Manor===
The Andoren Manor, like apparently every other manor, has something to do with a spouse in some sort of trouble or dead. The quest given by the occupee here happens to have a missing husband. The reward of this is 1000 gold, so be sure to stop by to claim this sack o' gold.

===Auline/Flaccus House===
This building is right next to the Southwest Gate, and home to a pair of men.

====Geon Auline's House====
This house has two quests relating to it. One relating to the aforementioned Droth Dagger. The other is a minor detour from the [[Tribunal:Crimson_Plague|Crimson Plague quest]], in which you drop off a cure disease potion to Geon Auline.

====Ignatius Flaccus's House====
In Ignatius Flaccus's House, you'll find a Robot arena. Sadly, the Robots are too beat up to fight, but you can repair them by taking the [[Tribunal:Dwemer Warbots|Dwemer Warbots]] quest. Of course, having killing robots around does have its [[Tribunal:Robot Arena|risks...]]

==Service Buildings==

===Craftsmen's Hall===
This is a work hall for all crafting services. Found here are many people related to quests. One quest involves a [[Tribunal:Infidelities|sneaky husband's affair]] on the top floor. Another has to do with a [[Tribunal:The Thief|crazy lady's questions]] about strange devices. An interesting quest involving a Kleptomaniacle-pack-rat (a.k.a. "[[Tribunal:The Champion of Clutter|The Clutter King]]") and his quest to find items to expand his collection. Bols Indalen offers to make custom armor for anyone who provides the materials and a fee. Next to him is Ilnori Faustus who tells you that he's simply too good be be a simple apprentice and has ambitions to become an adventurer, and you must find someone to replace him. Elbert Nermarc, the enchanter, can be found on the top floor; his prices may be lowered if you return a book during [[Tribunal:Scroll Sales|a quest]] given by a pawnbroker in the Great Bazaar.
===Museum of Artifacts===
This heavily guarded building is used to display a variety of unique items to Morrowind. The museum is also willing to accept new items, but the current owner will be re-embursed only in part. No actual services are offered by the museum.

===The Winged Guar===
The Winged Guar is the location of many important (quest-related) people, so don't go on any murderous rampages here. Outside [[Tribunal:Eno Romari|Eno Romari]], a cult member, walks around. Inside is an orc infomant, Bakh gro-Sham, who has some information regarding [[Tribunal:An Assassination Attempt|An Assassination Attempt]] during the [[Tribunal:Main Quest|Main Quest]]. Hession, the owner of the bar, asks anyone willing to stand in for a [[Tribunal:Bouncer|bouncer]]. Ra-Tesh, the publican behind the counter, sells drinks and food. Next to the bar, Galms Seles plays a rigged game of shells.

{{Tribunal:Godsreach People}}

==Related Quests==

{| width=100%
|-valign=top
|width=50%|
:[[Tribunal:The Barbarian and the Book|The Barbarian and the Book]]
:[[Tribunal:Bouncer|Bouncer]]
:[[Tribunal:The Champion of Clutter|The Champion of Clutter]]
:[[Tribunal:Dwemer Warbots|Dwemer Warbots]]
:[[Tribunal:Estate_Sale|Estate_Sale]]
:[[Tribunal:Infidelities|Infidelities]]
|width=50%|
:[[Tribunal:Robot Arena|Robot Arena]]
:[[Tribunal:The Smith's Apprentice|The Smith's Apprentice]]
:[[Tribunal:The Summoner|The Summoner]]
:[[Tribunal:The Thief|The Thief (Golena Sadri)]]
:[[Tribunal:The Warlords|The Warlords]]
:[[Tribunal:Wood Elf with a Grievance|Wood Elf with a Grievance]]
|-
|}

Oblivion talk:System Requirements

2007-03-08T03:01:30Z

FMan: unsigned

Actually it isn't necessary to have a 128MB video card. I play with an ATI X700 64MB and it's not too slow.
:except for some scenes...? Been through main quest? Kvatch, end of Bruma series and then Imperial City are three ultimate "gag any card" pieces. I've been successfully running through Elswyr with max detail at 60FPS, but as soon as it started raining in Blackwood later, I had to quickly pull the sliders down. --[[User:Vook|Vook]] 17:51, 18 May 2006 (EDT)

== Max settings requirement. ==

Anyone think the R600 will be able to handle max settings? assume average framerate of 35 and 1024 x 768 resolution

The section at the bottom has many errors:

Note 2:
A PC with the following specs should be able to run any currently released game (as of 2006) at 100% settings with maximum efficiency at a resolution of 1600x1200, despite the comments above. This is substantiated roughly 99%.

* Athlon FX-62 Dual Processors
* 4GB DDR2 SDRAM
* Quad-SLi, Dual GeForce 7950 GX2 GPUs (2GB video memory combined)

If Oblivion's code is ever tweaked to allow use of a PPU, then running Oblivion at its maximum settings will become even easier to accomplish.

Dual FX-62's? not possible.
I don't see 4gb of ram having any improvement over 2gb.
2gb of video memory is misleading, it's really only 512mb.
PPU? this part isn't really necessary, and could lessen the framerate (more objects onscreen to render)

:I totally agree with the fact that these specs could run Oblivion at maximum settings at a resolution of 1600x1200, especially since there are problems with the Geforce 7950 GX2's drivers and Oblivion (most benchmarks show the x1950 XTX as being the best card for Oblivion). 4 GB of RAM would have no appreciable performance improvement, and it is a solid fact that the FX-62 can't do it. Therefore I am deleting that part of the article. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 00:19, 23 October 2006 (EDT)

:Just out of curiousity, how much would all this hardware cost all together? --[[User:76.21.54.178|76.21.54.178]] 15:37, 5 January 2007 (EST)

::Well, Geforce 8800GTX's are $539.00, and you'd need two of them. The Core 2 Duo X6800 runs at $958.00, then probably $200 for RAM, $200 for a motherboard, $250 for a Powersupply, another $300 for a monitor, $150 for the case, $100 for an Hard Drive, $20 for s cheap DVD-Drive, and $100 for a sound card, so around $3,356... --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 16:33, 5 January 2007 (EST)

== My System - Runs at Ultra High ==

Hey guys,
Just to let you know, I'm running the game at ultra high, with actor and item fades maxed, and tree fade at half (because I want to see animals) here are my specs:

Pentium D - Dual Core - 3.0 ghz 
1 Gig DDR2 533 Mhz 
GeForce 7600 GT 256MB DDR3

Running at 1024x768 at ultra high, no stutter, not even any "loading area" screens. It's really smooth, I don't have fps rates off hand, but if requested I can turn the console command on and find out. 
--[[User:Cdevine|Cdevine]] 16:31, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:Cdevine, Ultra-High at 1024X768, ain't that special. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 17:01, 10 January 2007 (EST)

:: Hi Ratwar, I suppose you feel special? I'm confused. I was giving an fyi on what hardware would be needed to run it at such settings. I suppose you don't find this educational. I also suppose that your belittling tone is helpful in this regard? Why don't you let me know what you are trying to say without being rude? I figured this would be helpful to anyone that doesn't want to spend the money on SLI 8800's, 2 gigs of RAM, and an Intel Core 2 Extreme (which is most likely overkill) but still be able to appreciate the large textures, increased fades, and no stuttering. I may be mistaken, but isn't that what this page is for? --[[User:Cdevine|Cdevine]] 15:17, 11 January 2007 (EST)

::: He is lying his ass off. I have a Pentium D 930 3Ghz, 2GB of RAM, and an x1900xt and I can only run in medium-high settings and still get decent framerates. He is completely full of shit. {{unsigned|71.81.46.119}}

::::Maybe you don't have your graphics card and its drivers optimized, but games do require ridiculous amounts of power from the gfx card and CPU nowadays. Nothing is ever going to be enough. PC hardware is shit anyway and doesn't usually even work. This is especially the case if you try to use a piece of hardware with another. I'm stepping out of the Ferris wheel as of now and hereby announce I will never buy a piece of crappy PC hardware again! --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 19:26, 4 March 2007 (EST)

Oblivion talk:People

2007-03-08T02:45:49Z

FMan: /* NPC Pages */ 1 more thang

Oblivion talk:People

2007-03-08T02:35:18Z

FMan: /* NPC Pages */ my 50 cents

==Change to Layout==
I have altered the Skingrad People section, can I get some feedback. [[User:Noone81|Noone81]] 05:00, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

==Two pages?==
It's occurred to me that this page may get somewhat long, especially after I add in the Imperial City. Anyone think that maybe it should be two pages? One for the major cities and another for everyone else? If you think about every inn, small village, all the Daedric shrine worshippers, and then just all the other assorted people you can meet other places, you're looking at easily twice the number of people found in the major cities alone. I've already decided that people with generic names (guards, couriers, bandits, necromancers, vampires, etc.) will not be included here. Half of those are already covered on the [[Oblivion:Creatures]] page anyhow. But I'm thinking that it may make sense to seperate the city folk from the country folk, just to maintain a manageable page-size... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 23:38, 5 July 2006 (EDT)

:I guess what your doing now is dividing the page into parts and transcluding them from places like [[Oblivion:Bruma People]]. I recommend moving these pages under the article as sub pages. -[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 14:36, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

::Well, [[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03tx]] is the one doing that. But yeah, I assume the point of that is so that this page will always be consistant with the pages on the individual city pages. So, everything here should be replaced with transcludes from the seperated City People pages. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 16:13, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

==Notes on Who's Included and Locations==
I just made these lists by checking each of the major cities' faction usage in the Construction Set. So some names appear in more than one city. Maglir in the Fighters Guild is listed in three cities, and Alval Uvani seems to be in all of them. (I haven't played enough of the game yet to have figured this out, but does anybody know who he is and why he's in every city?) Also, if anyone is a resident of a city and not in that city's faction for some reason, they won't be listed. I know for one that this means that all of the residents of the Dark Brotherhood hideout in Cheydinhal are not listed. Also, I left out certain faction affiliations if they seemed too minor to include. Only other faction I'm not sure about is the Mythic Dawn faction. There seemed to be 1 or 2 in every city, but perhaps by listing them here, it might be too spoiler-ish? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 01:16, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:I think Alval Uvani might be the really unfriendly character who pops up in alot of places (I've seen him travelling the main roads as well as in cities), but I'm not completely sure. I'll keep my eyes open for him (although having just become a vampire, my character might not be spending much time in cities in the near future...). Makes sense I suppose that Maglir would pop up in three cities: he does have quest roles in all three places. We could probably get away with just having listed under Skingrad, since that's where you'll first meet him. I'd vote for listing the Mythic Dawns here under the 'other' category: they are normal NPCs until you get far enough in the main quest.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:24, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
::Well, all the Mythic Dawn people are in 'other' right now. When I realized they look just like regular people until later on, I decided to leave them alone. As for Maglir, I was considering including him in the Blackwood Company faction in Leyawiin instead of the Fighters Guild, since I know he switches over, but that might be spoilerish too. Might be best just to leave him where he is. (Looking at the Imperial City list, there's a LOT of people listed there that are also in other cities. I don't think it's a real problem for people to be listed in more than one location if they move around during the game.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 01:16, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:: Re: Alval Uvani - I just got to the quest he's involved in. If you're curious (and this doesn't spoil the quest), he's a travelling tradesman from Morrowind, who has business in a few of Cyrodiil's cities. He does have a house in Leyawiin, though. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]]
Here's how I'm handling duplicates - the final arbiter is what I encounter in-game. So if I see someone has a house in Imperial City, then I'll list them under Imperial City and delete all other references. Like Rochelle and Samuel Bantien, who have in IC Talos Plaza. Now, Rochelle visits people in Cheydinhal, but Samuel I've never seen outside IC. Rochelle has both IC and Cheydinhal in the Construction Set factions, and Samuel has Bravil listed in addition to IC! Since their house is in IC, I put them only under Imperial City. For a few NPCs this may be problematic. For example, the Jermane brothers move about, a couple of times. I think they should be listed only once, under the place they live at the beginning of the game. On someone's individual page all notable information should be included, but the People page should be kept to simpler standards. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] Mon, 17 Jul 2006 11:10 +0400

:Multiple listings is good. If I can walk into that city and see that pearson I'd like to have a link under that city. Think about usablity of the site. Someone playing the game sees the NPC in a city and goes to the page to find out more info. They don't know what city they have a house in. Of course they would probably use the search functionality. But, none the less a listing in every place the NPC is associated with works the best in my mind.. -- [[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 20 Jul 2006

::My main counterargument is that some of the NPCs only change cites after you've done quests relating to them: Maglir, for example, will sit in the West Weald Inn in Skingrad forever unless you start the Fighters Guild quests. Reynald Jemane will be a drunk in Chorrol until you start his quest. And presumably once you start in those quests, you won't be needing to look up those characters any more, so does it really make sense to have multiple listings? To some extent, I'm playing devil's advocate here: I don't have a clear preference myself, so I'm just repeating some of the arguments that go around in my head.

::On the other hand, I do tend to agree with your point for characters who independent of your actions drift from city to city (I remember a month ago or more, i.e. before this page started to get put together, running into a trainer NPC in Skingrad, and then losing track of him. Turns out he actually lives somewhere like the Talos Plaza district. Correction: using the Skingrad listings I was able to find him again: it was Othrelos who has a house in the Elven Gardens; I never could have ID'd him if he was only listed under Imperial City). Perhaps it makes sense to have a category "citizens" for people who live in whichever city, and then a category "visitors" for people who might pop occasionally pop up there. Going back to devil's advocate mode, the problem is then figuring out (a) where someone lives (b) who the visitors are and (c) who only moves around because of quests. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 12:34, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

::A "Visitors" column might not be a bad idea. Also, presumably at some point each NPC who moves around like that will have their own page, and the details of what makes them move (whether just visiting or moving for quest-related reasons) will be listed there. For the most part, each NPC is listed as initially existing in only one location, and that's what I'm using for now.

::There are a couple who exist in multiple locations, as well as some people who are represented by more than one actual NPC entry in the CS. (For example, the Gray Fox is actually not 1 but 3 NPCs as far as the CS is concerned. But as far as the player is concerned, he's only one person. So this is an unusual case.)

::Other NPCs have an "alive" and a "dead" version which are seperate NPCs. (Some residents of Bruma, for example.) I'm actually considering removing any NPCs who are already dead the first time you encounter them. There's a bunch of them there in the "Other" category right now. However, it may be important to know where to find them, so I'm not sure that getting rid of them is the best idea. I could put some sort of note to indicate that they're dead, (maybe a skull+crossbones, similar to the service icons) though in some cases that could be considered a spoiler. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 13:56, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

:::On the subject of what is considered a spoiler, there is a complaint at [[Oblivion Talk:Cheydinhal]] about being told someone was going to die, so might be best to be cautious with the dead folks. Also, I've initiated a discussion of spoilers at [[Template:Spoiler]] if anyone has thoughts on what constitutes a spoiler.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:08, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

::::That complaint is rather old. You'll notice that it's no longer valid, too, as I fixed the problem weeks ago when I replaced the short list of Cheydinhal residents with the chart from the [[Oblivion:People]] page. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 22:13, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

==Service Icons==
I was thinking about instead of just using italics to designate service providers, we could whip up some nice little icons that appear next to the name for each of the services, so you know whether they sell goods, spells, repairs, or training without having to go to their page. Services would include:
*Merchant - this might not need its own tag
**Food '''Ψ''' (a fork)
**Ingredients '''Δ''' (a pile of some sort of salts)
**Weapons '''†''' (a sword)
**Armor '''Θ''' (a shield)
**Clothing '''η''' (draped cloth)
**Potions '''θ''' (a pill)
**Books '''β''' (beta for book)
**Miscellaneous '''π''' (a table, i.e. tableware)
**Thieves Fence '''$''' (dollar-sign)
*Training '''Ω''' (a person's head, getting trained?)
*Spells '''ő''' (an eye, like the Mages Guild symbol)
*Repair '''φ''' (an hammer?)
*Recharging '''Į''' (a staff, typical item you might recharge)
*Innkeep '''δ''' (a hanging placard?)
*House sale/upgrades '''Π''' (a door)
*Horses '''ħ''' (a horse looking over its shoulder - also looks like a letter 'h')
More if I think of them...
--[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 23:52, 5 July 2006 (EDT)
:Icons would be really useful, although I think trying to get as detailed as which skill is trained or which spell schools are sold would get really tough. Take Calindil, for example, you'd need icons for ingredients, potions, and icons for all six spell schools, which would add up to quite a handful. And there are separate pages that list all the trainers and all the spell merchants, so if someone needs info at that level, they could use those pages. One question on the categories: would ingredients also cover alchemy equipment?--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:33, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
::Yeah, I guess that extra stuff isn't needed, if the info is on their main page. Might still want a special icon for the master-trainers as opposed to regular trainers, though, just because they're more important. As for alchemy equipment, I don't think a seperate indicator is needed. You'll basically buy that kind of thing once every 5 levels or so, and if you know where the ingredients and potions are, you can probably find it pretty easily. I might consider an icon for Lockpicks, though, as they're very good to have a large supply of, and not too many people sell them. Now the only real problem is - I don't know how to go about implementing an icon system. I can make the graphics easily enough. But uploading the images and making some sort of template to display them next to the names is a bit beyond my wiki-skills at this time. I'm thinking some sort of ASCII art might suffice until then? (Find some Greek letters or mathematical symbols or what-not that look like the appropriate icons needed that will display on standard browsers... Might have to test that.) Anyhow, here's a list of special characters that will display, courtesy of Wikipedia: (I added some suggestions above.)

*Á á Ć ć É é Í í Ĺ ĺ Ń ń Ó ó Ŕ ŕ Ś ś Ú ú Ý ý Ź ź À à È è Ì ì Ò ò Ù ù Â â Ĉ ĉ Ê ê Ĝ ĝ Ĥ ĥ Î î Ĵ ĵ Ô ô Ŝ ŝ Û û Ŵ ŵ Ŷ ŷ Ä ä Ë ë Ï ï Ö ö Ü ü Ÿ ÿ ß Ã ã Ẽ ẽ Ĩ ĩ Ñ ñ Õ õ Ũ ũ Ỹ ỹ Ç ç Ģ ģ Ķ ķ Ļ ļ Ņ ņ Ŗ ŗ Ş ş Ţ ţ Đ đ Ů ů Ǎ ǎ Č č Ď ď Ě ě Ǐ ǐ Ľ ľ Ň ň Ǒ ǒ Ř ř Š š Ť ť Ǔ ǔ Ž ž Ā ā Ē ē Ī ī Ō ō Ū ū Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ ǖ ǘ ǚ ǜ Ă ă Ĕ ĕ Ğ ğ Ĭ ĭ Ŏ ŏ Ŭ ŭ Ċ ċ Ė ė Ġ ġ İ ı Ż ż Ą ą Ę ę Į į Ǫ ǫ Ų ų Ł ł Ő ő Ű ű Ŀ ŀ Ħ ħ Ð ð Þ þ Œ œ Æ æ Ø ø Å å Ə ə 
*Greek: Α α Β β Γ γ Δ δ Ε ε Ζ ζ Η η Θ θ Ι ι Κ κ Λ λ Μ μ Ν ν Ξ ξ Ο ο Π π Ρ ρ Σ σ ς Τ τ Υ υ Φ φ Χ χ Ψ ψ Ω ω • 
*IPA: ʈ ɖ ɟ ɡ ɢ ʡ ʔ ɸ ʃ ʒ ɕ ʑ ʂ ʐ ʝ ɣ ʁ ʕ ʜ ʢ ɦ ɱ ɳ ɲ ŋ ɴ ʋ ɹ ɻ ɰ ʙ ʀ ɾ ɽ ɫ ɬ ɮ ɺ ɭ ʎ ʟ ɥ ʍ ɧ ɓ ɗ ʄ ɠ ʛ ʘ ǀ ǃ ǂ ǁ ɨ ʉ ɯ ɪ ʏ ʊ ɘ ɵ ɤ ɚ ɛ ɜ ɝ ɞ ʌ ɔ ɐ ɶ ɑ ɒ ʰ ʷ ʲ ˠ ˤ ⁿ ˡ ˈ ˌ ː ˑ • 
*Symbols: ~ | ¡ ¿ † ‡ ↔ ↑ ↓ • # ¹ ² ³ ½ ⅓ ⅔ ¼ ¾ ⅛ ⅜ ⅝ ⅞ ‘ “ ’ ” ¢ $ € £ ¥
--[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 01:11, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:::Using characters seems like a workable interim solution. Unfortunately IE doesn't seem to want to display a bunch of those characters; they just come out as empty squares. The missing ones include almost all the IPA characters (exceptions: ŋ ⁿ), and the following ones: Ȳ ȳ Ǣ ǣ Ǫ ǫ. My IE is pretty up-to-date, so I think to make these icons useful for a good number of readers, those characters have to be avoided. And that includes a few you've proposed (books, spells, repair, recharging, innkeep, horses).--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 02:11, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
::::Alright, I changed the ones you mentionned. How's this?--[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 07:50, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
Seeing the icons in action makes them seem a bit overwhelming. I was wondering if there are some ways to simplify things a bit.
* Should there be a symbol that means miscellaneous goods? My impression is that there are alot of merchants who sell a bit of just about anything, so introducing a single symbol that can be used instead of "†ΘηΨΔθβπ" on all those merchants might enhance readability. Maybe euro '''€''' for "everything"?
:Yeah, I was thinking there were a lot of "everything" merchants. I guess the '''€''' works for that. (Also less US-centric, since I chose the '''$''' as the Thieves Guild fence symbol.)
* Does every one who sells ingredients also sell food? Is then necessary to always list ingredients+food? Couldn't just '''Δ''' be used for those merchants, with the food part being implicit?
:Makes sense. Problem is it's actually kind of hard from the Construction set to tell who sells ingredients and who sells just food. (Any merchant who sells food will still ''buy'' any kinds of ingredients, food or otherwise.) Also difficult to figure out are those that make dialogue-based sales, such as the people that sell you horses, houses, and rooms at inns.
* Are there many merchants who sell only one of weapons/armor? There may be a few (i.e., Maro Rufus and Varnado) but those details can always be provided on their specific NPC pages. So could a single symbol be used to mean weapons and/or armor?
Since these symbols aren't the only way of conveying information, they don't necessarily have to be precise: details can always be given on the individual NPC's page.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 22:08, 6 July 2006 (EDT)
:There are definitely people who sell weapons and not armor, and vice versa. This is another complication, however, as I'm pretty sure that in most cases, even if a merchant only ''sells'' weapons, they will still ''buy'' armor, and thus both are checked in their settings in the Construction Set. However, I think using that Euro-symbol might make things a bit less cluttered.

:Now, one other thing I wonder - is it possible in wiki to make text that will cause a tooltip to appear under the cursor when you roll the mouse over it? It would definitely be nice if when rolling over a symbol, a little tip appeared telling you what it meant. (Of course I'll be adding a key later, but this would still help.) Alternatively, if they were images, the image can have an alternate-text that appears automatically. But I'll still have to figure out how to get images in there. (Probably spend some time this weekend doing that maybe.) Anyhow, I'll make these changes and see how it looks. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 22:21, 6 July 2006 (EDT)

Agh. These icons are a frikkin' pain. Since my keyboard isn't equipped to type them, I have to copy/paste from Word every single little symbol, one by one. (Can't even use Notepad, because they just show up as ???.) I've done Anvil and Bravil, but I think I'm going to give it a rest until we get those graphic icons implemented, this is just too much tediousness, even for me. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 00:07, 7 July 2006 (EDT)
:If you're contemplating tackling this again, you could try typing the names of all the symbols, i.e. '''Ω''', '''Θ''', '''π''', '''φ''', '''Δ''', '''δ''', '''€''', '''Ψ''', '''Π'''. It takes a few keystrokes, but might be less irritating than cutting and pasting.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:43, 7 July 2006 (EDT)
:OK, how to get the text to appear instead of being converted to symbols is beyond me at the moment, but if you look at this section in the editor, you can easily what the text is.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:46, 7 July 2006 (EDT)

I don't find the greek characters readable at all - especially without a legend on the same page! Plus, some of them look very similar to one another: capital psi '''Ψ''' and lowercase phi '''φ''' may be confused. I'd suggest using plain old latin letters and very generalized categories - M for merchant, S for spells, T for trainer, R for repair, C for (re)charging, H for horses, and F for fence. Maybe also I for innkeep, B for buy a house, and Q for quests (as in, you can get a new quest from this person, not just that they're involved in one).

Then you could have a simple, alphabetically ordered list, and don't have to worry about whether someone's weird browser will draw actual greek letters, or some off-the-wall character, or a box with numbers in it, or what have you. Suggest that people click through to the NPC's individual page for more detail: i.e. such and such person sells only food and beverages, so you can only sell to them in "potions" and "ingredients" categories. This would also be more readable because there's less information to assimilate in a single gulp - the max length here would be three or four characters, as opposed to having eight or ten chars after a name!
:P.S. Nephele: &amp; is the code for ampersand, so you want to type "&amp;Omega;" in the editor to get "&Omega;" on the web page. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] 10:30, 16 Jul 2006 GMT
::Yeah, those symbols were an experiment, and as far as I'm concerned, a failed one. (Which is why I didn't implement it for more than the first two cities.) I don't know that your method would be much better, however. You'd get people confused over whether H meant houses or horses, R for repair or recharge, etc. More and more, I'm convinced that graphic-based icons are the way to go. Easily recognizable, and they'd have the advantage that by rolling the mouse over them, you'd get a tooltip saying what it meant, so you almost wouldn't need a key. (There'd still be one, of course.) I'm going to look into what's involved in uploading some small images for the purpose. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 11:09, 16 July 2006 (EDT)

===Images for services===
OK, I've uploaded some icons: [[Image:Merchanticon_small.png|Merchant]] [[Image:Spellsicon_small.png|Spells]] [[Image:Rechargeicon_small.png|Recharge]] [[Image:Repairicon_small.png|Repair]] [[Image:Trainicon_small.png|Train]] [[Image:Fenceicon_small.png|Fence]] [[Image:Sleepicon_small.png|Sleep]] [[Image:Dooricon_small.png|Door]] [[Image:Horseicon_small.png|Horse]] I've redone Anvil's list, removing the italics since they should no longer be necessary. What do y'all think? The only one I don't quite like is the fence icon - the red hand looks better in the game than on a bright white background, I think. -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] 5:15, 16 Jul 2006 PDT
:Those are great! I have one suggestion. Why not change the alt-text to give more information? So you could have [[Image:Trainicon_small.png|Alchemy]] to indicate that this person trains Alchemy, [[Image:Merchanticon_small.png|Ingredients]] to indicate that this person sells ingredients, so you can quickly roll over the icons and get the info without having to go to their page? (Also would be nice if we could somehow sneak in a template to make the formatting easier to input, but this may be fine.) Oh, one more we need would be for horses. I think the horseshoe icon would be perfect for that. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 21:04, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
::I think using the game's icons is definitely the easiest way to present this info, since everyone will immediately recognize what is meant by the icon. I agree that the red hand stands out, especially since the other icons are all brown, but I think it does make sense as the "fencing" icon. I just experimented with adding to the tooltip text: so instead of just saying "Train", I filled in exactly what type of training each person offers. The same could be done with merchants, so that the icons can actually provide a fair bit of additional info. But I wonder if having the icons all right-aligned would look neater?--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:16, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
::Great minds think alike: at the same time that you were adding your comment, I was doing it: the trainers' tooltip text has already been expanded!--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 21:18, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
:::Great minds edit alike too. While you were doing that, I was working on doing the same for Bravil... (Glad I chose to go for the second one on that, still had to do the merge afterwards. I'm thinking one at a time is better here...) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 21:29, 16 July 2006 (EDT)
:: Yes, I totally forgot horses when doing these. Well, now a horseshoe icon has been added: [[Image:Horseicon_small.png|Horse]] -- [[User:marbx|marbx]]
:::Great. Now just to enter these in for the rest of them... One more thing. Do we want to have icons for people who start or are involved in quests? Not sure what you'd use for that. Maybe a picture of an open book, like what you see when you're looking at a book? Or maybe the cup icon like they use for inns - that'd be good because a cup is used for quests on your quest menu. Only problem is people might misinterpret it to think they're an innkeeper, though I think the Sleep icon is obvious enough that there wouldn't be a problem. Maybe even use both - the book for quest starters and the cup for people involved in quests. The tooltip would give the name of the quest. Even better if we could make it so clicking on the icon takes you right to the quest page, though I'm not sure if that's possible. Anyhow, just a few thoughts I had. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 00:58, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
:::: I think that's reaching too far - keeping track of who lives where, and who sells what is probably enough info for this page. Isn't it big enough as is? :) Plus, revealing who's involved in which quests definitely goes into spoiler territory. Spoilers should not be on as general a page as "people." BTW, I've been checking some of these people out in-game, and some of the names in italics do not appear to actually sell or train anything. I know some trainers need to be "unlocked" (but I don't think any sellers do, save fences), so is there a better way to verify that these people are actually merchants of some sort? -- [[User:marbx|marbx]] 12:27 17 Jul 2006 CDT
:::::When I originally made this chart, I basically checked each NPC's Services tab in the Construction Set, and if ANY of the boxes was checked, I italicized them. Later, somebody, I think Nephele, created pages for all the merchants, based on the Merchants page, and linked them. Odds are, if a name is in italics and they don't have their own page, they're probably a trainer. If you can't get services from them now, it's likely they're either locked, or there's something else funky going on. (See [[Oblivion:Trevaia|Trevaia]]. We still can't figure out what's going on with her.) With the addition of these icons (and noticing that I missed a few in Anvil), I'm thinking of moving those back into the Other column, leaving the Merchants column for just people that have a commercial establishment - a shop, an inn, a tavern, etc. Was even considering adding the name of the shop somehow, which would make them easier to find in many cases. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 09:12, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
::::Try {{[[Template:Clickpic|Clickpic]]}}. <code><nowiki>{{clickpic|Oblivion:Escape From Prison|http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Dooricon_small.png}}</nowiki></code> turns into {{clickpic|Oblivion:Escape From Prison|http://www.uesp.net/w/images/Dooricon_small.png}}. The URL alt text could probably be overruled via a simple CSS tweak. Because of server configuration I wasn't able to make it as simple as Dooricon_small.png. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]][[User talk:Garrett|Talk]] 01:36, 17 July 2006 (EDT)
:::::Well, if you figure out how to simplify this, and make the alt-text work, we may implement it, but then I do see marbx's point about how quest linking might be spoiler-ish. Not to mention a lot of work. Heh. I think we can just do with what we have for now. Maybe that can be added later if enough people want it. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 09:12, 17 July 2006 (EDT)

You've probably noticed that I added color-coded icons for Basic/Advanced/Master Trainers. I've left the original yellow icon in there for special cases where the trainer does not fit one of those three categories. Right now there are only two, Trayvond the Redguard, and Hauls-Ropes-Faster, both of whom seem to offer training, but so far nobody has figured out how. (Probably a bug in both cases.) I'm also considering using this icon for people who train your skills in other ways, such as a one-time quest reward, or from watching them sparring like those two in the Arena and the Cloud Ruler Temple. Maybe even people who give you a skill book as a quest reward. Sound like a plan? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:26, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

:I'm not sure about lumping in some of the rewards with training, especially with the icons where there's so little info. It's just that the rewards are slightly different from regular training (you can only get it once, it doesn't count to your five/level limit, etc) and I'm worried about misleading/confusing people who are scanning through this list.--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:17, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

::Yes, but if you consider that the yellow icons now NEVER refer to regular training, since I've changed all the regular trainers to green, blue, or red, these would still be easily distinguishable. Plus I can just put a little "(see note)" on the alt-text to explain it further. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 14:45, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

== Content of NPC pages ==
As more and more pages for individual NPCs get filled in, I think it may be useful to establish what the content/style should be of those pages. Just like with the place pages and quest pages, establish what info should be on the pages, and some sort of layout so people can easily find that info.

What I've been drifting towards is:
* Crumb trail!
* Intro section: gender, race, where the person lives, what guild they are in, any relatives, whether they are killable (quest-critical)
* If they move around, details as available on where they pop up and when (I know some NPCs have a travel schedule, specific days of the month/week where they go to specific places)
* <nowiki>==Services==</nowiki> section (only required for NPCs who provide any services)
** The times during which they provide services, and location(s) that they need to be in.
** If they are a merchant: mercantile skill, gold, goods they buy/sell, any unique items, beds, horses, etc.
** If they are a spell merchant: provide table at bottom of page with spells
** If they are a trainer: what skill they train, and at what level (and follow Lurlock's attempts to standardize the terms: basic, advanced, master)
** List any other services (repair, recharging)
* <nowiki>==Quests==</nowiki> section (only required for NPCs who appear in any quests)
** specify quests for which they are quest-providers
** specify quests in which they play a role (and I've been erring on the generous side there, i.e. [[Oblivion:Carahil]] who just gets mentioned in a journal in one quest)

Definitely these are ideas in progress. I've tried to implement them on [[Oblivion:Maglir]]'s and [[Oblivion:Carahil]]'s pages. Any other thoughts?

--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:03, 20 July 2006 (EDT)

A thought I had was to add categories for each of the 10 (11 if you count Dremora) races in the game. So at the bottom of each NPC page would be a category listing, and if you wanted to find a list of all Argonians in the game, it would be on its own page. Helpful when somebody is trying to remember which Orc it was they saw somewhere, having forgotten his name... (I can never remember Orc names. Khajiits are kind of tough too.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:14, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

I'm new to this and I edited [[Oblivion:Daenlin]] before I found this section, while what I did is very amaturish, can people say if it points in the "right" direction. I have an opinion we need a "Oblivion:People" template. It should look like a Wikipedia bio. that is box on right side of screen with stanardized information in it. [[User:Noone81|Noone81]] 01:24, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

:Yes, I could see having some type of standard infobox for the NPC pages. I'd guess it would probably be larger than the Wikipedia bio boxes (mainly because some NPCs wouldn't have too much on their page other than what's in the infobox). It would be very possible to incorporate the merchant table into such an infobox, and have it only show up on merchant pages. I'd say it's probably easiest to proceed by continuing what you've been doing: pick a couple NPC pages, and experiment with how to layout the information. I don't have any more concrete suggestions at the moment (in part because I'm getting sleepy), but I'll think about it some more overnight. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 03:13, 7 September 2006 (EDT)

== Other People ==

Well, I tore apart the "Other" section, and put every location with more than 1 named NPC in it into the "Other Locations" section. Not sure if I should go ahead and do that for the rest of them. Currently, every NPC still listed in the big "Other" list is the only named NPC in their location. I was thinking of treating these differently, creating a list of these people, alphabetically by name, with their location immediately after, e.g.:

*[[Oblivion:Arkved|Arkved]] - [[Oblivion:Arkved's Tower|Arkved's Tower]]
*[[Oblivion:Azani Blackheart (person)|Azani Blackheart]] - [[Oblivion:Atatar|Atatar]]
etc.

Maybe in 2 or 3 columns to save space.

Arguably, that could be spoilerish, but then, a lot of what's on this page could be. It'd be more informative than the info-dump list that's there right now. Any thoughts? --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:06, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

:I was amazed to see how much you've whittled down that list. I think a list like you're talking about would work; it would make the list seem a bit less like the leftovers. I'm not sure if one or two more names could be stuffed in elsewhere. I moved Corrick Northwode up to small towns (Harm's Folly seems as much a small town as Drakelowe... both one house with one person). Also, I'm pretty sure Fithragaer is part of the Skingrad Mage's Guild. The only hitch is that he starts the game stuck in a cave outside of Skingrad (there's a quest to rescue him and return him to the guild). In a case like that, should he just get added to Skingrad instead of the miscellaneous list? Raven Camoran lives in the Imperial City, except he's under it (Sunken Sewers)... perhaps stick him in the others there?
:But there's definitely a bunch that will never have any other good places to go (poor dead Agnar, his body rotting on a mountainside). --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:12, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

::You're thinking of Erthor, not Fithragaer. Erthor is already listed in Skingrad, even though that's not where you find him. I considered not putting him in there, since after the quest where you rescure him, he just goes back to the cave again later. But he is still a member of the guild there, and I think having him seperated into some obscure cave away from everyone else isn't quite fair. Good catch on Harm's Folly, I missed that one. As for Raven Camoran, I was being a little bit careful with those, since I know they're major Main Quest characters, but I haven't played enough of the Main Quest to be able to say much about them. (I was iffy about putting Mankar and Ruma Camoran as well, but since they appeared all in one cell, along with Harrow, I opted to include them.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 14:42, 23 July 2006 (EDT)

== Martin ==
He is listed here in Kavatch where he first apears. But he is listed as "Brother Martin". And the page of course also is dead link to Oblivion:Borther Martin. I don't think this is quite right. It seems ok to list him at Kavatch, but he certainly isn't a "Brother" anymore after the kvatch quests, and that happens pretty early on in the game. Linking to his name on the final quest It would seem weird to link to "Brother Martin". I mean in the first quest for the mian sotry you find out his true identity I don't think it really counts as a spoiler. --[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]]

:In cases where a character's name or location changes, I've generally been using the first name and location that you encounter. (Another reason I'm considering getting rid of the Corvus Umbranox page.) True, this one's not nearly as much of a spoiler, his name in the game appears as "Brother Martin" in the CS, and thus in the game. I don't think there is an NPC in the game called just "Martin". (At work, can't check here.) --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 15:04, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

::There isn't. Let's just call him "Martin", and have "Brother Martin" and "Martin Septim" direct to him. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 15:49, 25 July 2006 (EDT)

== Sub pages ==
It seems we are also including these tables in the pages for the cities. We might consider making a sub page Oblivion:Anvil_People that we simply include here and in the Oblivion:Anvil page. That way we don't have two versions of the table to keep in sync. If no one objects I might start doing this tomorrow.--[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 27 July
:I'm pretty much always in favour of consolidating any identical, repeated information to a single place and then transcluding it everywhere it's needed. As you say, there's less work whenever a change needs to be made. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:06, 27 July 2006 (EDT)
:The problem with doing that is if you need to make a change to something that's inbetween what the template covers, you can't without modifing the template and the pages that the template uses. Also, templates in overdose scare away newcomers. All I ask is to use moderation. Don't put everything in one big template, maybe divide off the templates. Take the bread crumb trails out of the template. Let there be room for simple modification. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 18:31, 27 July 2006 (EDT)
::I did Bravil and Anvil. All I did was move them to their own page and translude them. I didn't create a template or anything. Anyway I noticed that both the Bravil and Anvil city pages had out of date NPC tables so I think this going to be better overall. Let me know what you think, or how to do it better --[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 28 July 2006

::Finished the magor towns, as it is quick work. I'll leave it as is, to give time for comments and objections. Then I'll do the small towns and the Imperial City Districts. --[[User:Lorenz03tx|Lorenz03Tx]] 28 July 2006

== Ugal wont go away! ==

I was changing all the links to Ugal Belette to Eugal Belette, but on the [[Oblivion:People|People]] page, I can't seem to change it. When I edit the Chorrol section, it shows it linking to Eugal Belette, but on the page itself, it goes to Ugal Belette.

:Fixed. One problem with transclude pages is that any page they're included on is not refreshed until you make a change in the main page itself. Ran into this quite a lot on the Skill Books section. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 22:31, 28 July 2006 (EDT)

:You can fix it without having to edit the page by clicking on this link: [http://uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Oblivion:People&action=purge]. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 02:42, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

::Thanks - Is there an easier way to make that happen on other pages without typing everyhing in? This is a feature I can anticipate much need for, but I don't see any link anywhere that will do it... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 10:28, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

:::Click on "edit" on the page you want to purge, then replace "action=edit" with "action=purge". I usually make this change by double-clicking to the right of the URL, which will highlight the word "edit". --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 10:33, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

::::Cool. Didn't work where I wanted it to, unfortunately. (The Oblivion-NPCs category.) I guess it doesn't work on categories, but... Nope. Doesn't work if you purge members in the category either. Was thinking that'd be easier than having to arbitrarily edit each one to get them out of the 'O' category. But no such luck. I'm sure this will be useful somewhere, but not in this case. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] 12:28, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

::::: That "O" glitch is wierd, and purge doesn't seem to fix those pages. Purge simply refreshes a page's catch. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 12:44, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

It seems to me like purge doesn't work with any of the "special" (automatically generated) pages; they only respond to real edits. There are two other examples that have been bugging me lately.
* On [[Special:Wantedpages|Wantedpages]] it claims that a bunch of Tamriel:People pages are wanted. So I edited [[Template:Tamriel People]], that was the source of these "wanted" pages. Voila, [[Tamriel:People B]] no longer has any red links at the top. But no change to the WantedPages list, even if I purge the page.
* On [[Special:Whatlinkshere/Oblivion:Magical_Effects]] there are a bunch of pages that do not have any links (any more) to [[Oblivion:Magical_Effects]]. For example, [[Oblivion:Spell List Notes]] used to have a couple of links to [[Oblivion:Magical Effects]]. I fixed those links, then went through '''all''' the pages that transclude [[Oblivion:Spell List Notes]] (i.e., all the NPC pages listed on whatlinkshere) and purged them. So [[Oblivion:Trevaia]] no longer has any links to [[Oblivion:Magical Effects]], but she's still listed on whatlinkshere. There's at least 100+ other pages on that whatlinkshere page that don't link there any more (because of changes to a template), but I can't figure out how to get whatlinkshere to update (so I can easily track down a handful of links that probably need to be fixed).
I'm basically in a holding pattern on these, partly hoping that if Daveh upgrades the wiki sometime in the not-too-distant future, maybe an upgrade will fix this problem. Unless anyone has any suggestions in the meantime...--[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 13:14, 29 July 2006 (EDT)

== Do Test NPCs need their own articles? ==

As the Test NPCs don't appear in-game at all, ever, and therefore aren't very interesting, I move that we keep the list of names here for interest but remove the links to non-existent pages. I will do so for now and if the consensus goes against me, we can revert it. --[[User:Actreal|Actreal]] 03:22, 15 October 2006 (EDT)
:I agree--[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 09:17, 15 October 2006 (EDT)

== Hauls-Ropes-Faster Fixed in Patch ==

Just checked, and it appears Hauls-Ropes-Faster is able to train after the patch. I successfully found him willing to train in the Foc's'l, but only while he's downstairs. I'm about to update the page to reflect this. I'll also look on the Trainer page to see if that needs updating.

[[User:StarliteLemming|StarliteLemming]] 00:21, 18 November 2006 (EST)

== NPC Pages ==

There's been talk on and off for a while about trying to create some type of infobox for the NPC pages. Most recently, [[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] brought it up at [[Oblivion Talk:Rohssan]]. In response to that, I put together a sandbox version of an infobox at [[User:Nephele/Sandbox/2]].

If we are contemplating going through and revamping most of the NPC pages, it seems like it's worth doublechecking what info people would like to see added to the pages, and in particular what info should be included in an infobox. Looking through the various NPC statistics there are a few ideas that crossed my mind:
* responsibility
* level
* health
* essential?
* follower?
* factions
* class (I've already added this to the current sandbox version, but thought I should bring it up for discussion while I'm at it)
Does anyone think some or all of these would be worth including on most NPC pages? Or are there other useful statistics I've overlooked?

As for the logistics of doing it, I was thinking of doing an info-dump from the construction set with a lot of the other information needed for the new infoboxes, all properly formatted, etc. I'd probably post it in one of my sandboxes so anyone who's interested in updating NPC pages can easily cut and paste the info. Adding in a few more statistics to the dump is trivial. In other words, as long as we decide ahead of time what we want, there's no additional work to add one statistic or twenty statistics.

Any feedback on any of these ideas? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 17:48, 7 March 2007 (EST)
:Looks good so far! definitely think everything you listed should go in there, maybe Aggression too? [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 17:56, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:Mind if I take a crack at compacting some of the design a bit? Seems a lot of things are given a full row for something that will never be more than one word. Kind of wastes space. Another idea that occurred to me just now was the possibility of color-coding the charts like we did on the Magic Effects. I've got a color-scheme for races already as seen on [[Tamriel:Demographics]], which could work. It could even be programmed to choose the color automatically via a template like Magic Effects used. (Though that would be for you to do - I'm great with charts but still only so-so with intricate template coding.) I'm going to see what I can do to streamline this chart a bit. Meet me at [[User:TheRealLurlock/Sandbox_III|Camera Three]] in a few minutes... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 18:02, 7 March 2007 (EST)
:I've almost got it - the one thing that's bugging me is that the [[Template:Navimg]] template insists on creating a new line for its image. Is there any way to fix that? I can't quite figure what's going on there... --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 18:21, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::Yep, color-coding the boxes according to race would definitely be doable... especially if you could give me the codes for the colours you chose on the demographics page. And I can see compacting the table some. But I think I'd prefer to spell out what the training skill and level are, and what the services are... although the icons make great sense on a table of all the NPCs, I don't think space is at such a premium on the NPC pages that we need to force readers to learn the icons and/or hover over the icons to find out what they mean. I figured adding the icons adds some decoration to the table, and helps people who are pretty familiar with them, but I'd prefer not to rely on them as the only source of information here. Oh, and she's level 10, BTW ;)
::Jadrax: consider aggression added to the list :) --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 18:22, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:::Colors:
:::{|class=wikitable
!Race!!Color
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Altmer}}}}
|'''Altmer'''||#dfbe00
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Argonian}}}}
|'''Argonian'''||#86ac01
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Wood Elf}}}}
|{{FC|white|'''Bosmer'''}}||{{FC|white|#847000}}
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|Bretons}}}}
|{{FC|white|'''Breton'''}}||{{FC|white|#993365}}
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|[[Oblivion:Dunmer|Dunmer]]}}}}
|'''Dunmer'''||#848484
|-{{BG|{{Race Color|imperials}}}}
|{{FC|white|'''Imperial'''}}||{{FC|white|#0000ae}}
|-{{BG|#f39a00}}
|'''Khajiit'''||#f39a00
|-{{BG|#00ffff}}
|'''Nord'''||#00ffff
|-{{BG|#118500}}
|{{FC|white|'''Orc'''}}||{{FC|white|#118500}}
|-{{BG|#841a1a}}
|{{FC|white|'''Redguard'''}}||{{FC|white|#841a1a}}
|}

:::One problem is that some of the colors are too dark to read against, so I had to change the text to white. Not sure how easy that is to template, but I'll bet you can do it. As for the icons, I'm trying to make them into navimg's, with rollover text in case you don't know what the icons mean. That's some more template work to get that to happen, though. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 18:52, 7 March 2007 (EST)

::::I suggest trying to implement the schedule for the NPC into the table. It probably won't fit, but we could even put the times the Npc's home (if they have a home). --[[User:67.142.130.47|67.142.130.47]] 19:14, 7 March 2007 (EST)

:::::I agree trying to document each NPC's schedule better would be a good addition to the pages. But I don't think trying to squeeze the schedules into an infobox makes sense, because for some NPCs they can get somewhat complicated (one day/month travel to another town, when at home visit three different inns, go to the marketplace on Sunday, etc.)
:::::I've updated my [[User:Nephele/Sandbox/2|sandbox]] with most of Lurlock's ideas, but not quite all ;) Unless we want to make the infobox fill the entire width of the page, I don't think it should try to contain all the information.
:::::*Moving the quests in particular seems to require dropping useful information (i.e., the quest description), so I'd rather keep them out of the box and have more info.
:::::*Adding a picture to the box pushes the useful info fairly far down the page (off the page for most readers). And I know there are some NPC photos (e.g., [[Oblivion:Dar-Ma|Dar-Ma]]) that are super-tall and therefore will be much worse.
:::::*It also seems that trying to squeeze the "training" and "other services" into half of a column requires losing some information, so I'd prefer to keep those full width. Also, there will be NPCs who offer training, but no other services, or vice versa. And there will be NPCs who sell spells, which I was anticipating being another section listed under services. So it's easier to deal with all that variability if each of those sections is full-width.
:::::*I've added the other suggested statistics at the bottom of the box.
:::::So, any preferences from anyone else on some of the design details where Lurlock and I differ? --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 19:36, 7 March 2007 (EST)
::::::Yeah, I was a bit iffy on the picture. I actually did find one Oblivion female redguard, but she had a tall vertical picture as well, so I opted not to use it. Personally, I think we should just stick to head-shots for all the NPC pictures, but try convincing everybody who ever uploads a picture to keep to that. As for the spell-merchants, I realized fairly quickly that this template won't work for them. I'd suggest keeping the spell-charts the way they are, on the left, beside the sidebar. It fits in with the text, and it's not generally wide enough that they'd interfere unless you have a VERY small monitor. I'll give an example on my sandbox. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 20:36, 7 March 2007 (EST)
:::::::The color idea for the various races appears great! Once you agree how the "revamped" NPC pages are gonna be, I can take a city or two and go through the NPCs therein. Dabs on Chorrol. :-) The black on dark gray (Dunmer) is a bit hard to read: I suggest lighter gray background or changing the text color to white for this one as well. But I don't think anyone is going to have extensive text in a colored box? I like Nephele's latest sandbox very much. However I have suggestion: swap Gender and Race. Thus, Race becomes first in that group as a more significant piece of information than gender, and will then furthermore be grouped vertically with the character's levvl. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 21:35, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Morrowind:Caldera Mine

2007-03-08T02:23:42Z

FMan: /* Notes */ added links to various documents

{{Morrowind Places Trail}}
[[Image:Caldera_Mine-2.JPG|thumb|right|Caldera Mine interior map]]
The '''Caldera Mine''' is an ebony mine located west of [[Morrowind:Caldera|Caldera]] that is owned and mined by [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House Hlaalu]]. It is run by some of the most corrupt elements within House Hlaalu, with Imperial cooperation, and staffed by slaves. [[Morrowind:House Redoran|House Redoran]] is known not to be pleased with this state of affairs.

The mine is moderately sized, and is guarded by 3 House Hlaalu guards. The mine also contains 3 named Dunmer miners and 4 named slaves.

==NPCs==
{| class="greylapse" border=1 cellpadding=3 cellspacing=0 style="text-align:left"
|- bgcolor="#efefef"
! Character Name !! Gender !! Race !! Class !! Comments
|-
| Ahanabi Assullinbanud
| F
| Dunmer
| Miner
|
|-
| Dun-Ilu Assurnumausur
| M
| Dunmer
| Miner
|
|-
| Gilm
| F
| Argonian
| Slave
|
|-
| Inorra
| F
| Khajiit
| Slave
|
|-
| Khazura
| F
| Khajiit
| Slave
|
|-
| Neesha
| F
| Argonian
| Slave
|
|-
| Ohibaal Assintashiran
| M
| Dunmer
| Miner
|
|-
|}

==Related Quests==
===House Redoran===
'''[[Morrowind:Evidence of Corruption|Evidence of Corruption]]''' – Recover proof of [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] corruption in the [[Morrowind:Caldera|Caldera]] mining operation.

'''[[Morrowind:Shut the Mines Down|Shut the Mines Down]]''' – Shutdown the mine for [[Morrowind:Garisa Llethrithe|Garisa Llethrithe]].

===Imperial Cult===
'''[[Morrowind:Donation from Cunius Pelelius|Donation from Cunius Pelelius]]''' – Collect a 500 gold pledge from the owner of the mine.

==Notes==
* Two differing '''Caldera Record Books''' exist known as [[Tamriel:Books/Caldera_Ledger|Caldera Ledger]] and [[Tamriel:Books/Secret_Caldera_Ledger|Secret Caldera Ledger]]. A further related document is the [[Tamriel:Books/Caldera_Mining_Contract|Caldera Mining Contract]].
* A key to the Slave Bracers can be found in the Caldera Mining Company Bunkhouse, in the Caldera Mining Company Guard Tower, and on Stlennius Vibato in the Caldera Mining Company Office. Freeing any slaves in the mine will count toward the 20 slaves you need to receive the code phrase and unlock [[Morrowind:The Twin Lamps|The Twin Lamps]] quest from [[Morrowind:Ilmeni Dren|Ilmeni Dren]].

Morrowind:Secret Caldera Ledger

2007-03-08T02:22:58Z

FMan: This is the real ledger for the Caldera Mine - didn't find it yet in UESP.

{{Book Info|grouping=C|title=Secret Caldera Ledger}}

[This book shows the ebony mined in and shipped from Caldera. It shows a steady flow of ebony from the mines to something called the "Ashlands Management Fund." Apparently someone in Caldera is using the mines to fund a personal project.]

Morrowind:Evidence of Corruption

2007-03-08T02:16:57Z

FMan: /* Evidence of Corruption */ added a link - btw, this is the worst quest page I've ever seen

{{Morrowind House Redoran Trail}}
===Evidence of Corruption===
Garisa Llethri in his manor in [[Morrowind:Ald'ruhn|Ald'ruhn]] will ask you to help him shut down the [[Morrowind:Caldera Mine|Caldera Mine]] by finding evidence to support his claim of corrupt [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] operations.

The mine is south-west of [[Morrowind:Caldera|Caldera]] and the slaves there will tell you where the evidence is located, with high enough disposition, and Dahlheena in slave shack two will immediately tell you where to find it. Do not free these slaves yet or you will be unable to complete this quest. You may also search and find the evidence yourself.

You'll possibly find two ledgers, one faked, and one [[Tamriel:Books/Caldera_Ledger|true one]]. Take the true one back to Garisa to complete the quest.

----
{{cleanup-mw}}
{{NeedsImage-mw}}

Morrowind:Alchemical Formulas

2007-03-08T02:09:59Z

FMan: added links to the recipes

{{NeedsImage-mw}}
{{Morrowind House Hlaalu Trail}}
{{Quest Header|Giver=[[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]]
|Start=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Balmora|Balmora]]
|Reward=5-point increase in faction reputation
|ID=HH_IndEsp1
|Prev=[[Morrowind:Disguise|Disguise]]
|Next=[[Morrowind:Inanius Egg Mine (quest)|Inanius Egg Mine]]
|Loc=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Balmora|Balmora]], [[Morrowind:Vivec Foreign|Vivec - Foreign Quarter]]
|AddAbove=*'''Required Rank:''' None
|AddBelow=
|Image=
}}
==Quick Walkthrough==
# [[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]]'s next task involves stealing [[Morrowind:Aurane Frernis|Aurane Frernis]]' secret [[Tamriel:Books/Aurane_Frernis'_Recipies|alchemy formulas]].
# Aurane's shop is in Vivec's Foreign Quarter. There are three total scrolls: on the table, on Aurane, and in a locked chest.
# Whichever way you steal the formula, return it to Nileno for an increase in faction reputation

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Hlaalu Alchemy===
[[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]] at the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Council Manor in [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] will ask you to steal a formula from an alchemist who has been taking business from a loyal [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] alchemist in [[Morrowind:Vivec (city)|Vivec]]. The alchemist in question is [[Morrowind:Aurane Frernis|Aurane Frernis]] in the Foreign Quarter.

===Aurane's Secret Formula===
You can find Aurane Frernis in [[Morrowind:Vivec Foreign|Vivec's Foreign Quarter]], Lower Waistworks. It may be very difficult to steal [[Tamriel:Books/Aurane_Frernis'_Recipies|the recipe scroll]] without any magic. In all, there's one on the table, one in a chest at the foot of the bed, and one on Aurane herself. The chest is locked around 50, so non-theives should avoid this one; the same goes for the one on Aurane. The easiest would be the one on the table; it's a small room, so there's little to hide behind when stealing the scroll. A telekinesis spell or item would be useful since you can hide anywhere in the room while stealing it.

Once you've acquired the formula, return it to Nileno in [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] with the recipe to complete the quest and receive a five point boost in faction reputation.

==Notes==
* If you kill Aurane Frernis, Nileno Dorvayn will scorn you on ruining Hlaalu's reputation, and you won't get a reward.
* Contents of [[Tamriel:Books/Aurane_Frernis'_Recipies|Aurane Frernis' Recipies]].

{{Quest Footer|Prev=[[Morrowind:Disguise|Disguise]]|Next=[[Morrowind:Inanius Egg Mine (quest)|Inanius Egg Mine]]|Up=[[Morrowind:House Hlaalu#House Hlaalu Quests|House Hlaalu Quests]]}}

Morrowind:Aurane Frernis

2007-03-08T02:03:43Z

FMan: corrected erroneous information

<noinclude>[[Category:Morrowind People|{{PAGENAME}}]] {{Morrowind People Trail}}</noinclude> '''Aurane Frernis''' runs an independent alchemy shop in the Lower Waistworks of the Foreign Quarter in Vivec.

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|Alchemical Formulas}}

Morrowind:Aurane Frernis

2007-03-08T01:53:56Z

FMan: New NPC page.

<noinclude>[[Category:Morrowind People|{{PAGENAME}}]] {{Morrowind People Trail}}</noinclude> '''Aurane Frernis''' has a small alchemy stall in the Upper Canalworks of the Foreign Quarter in Vivec.

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|Alchemical Formulas}}

Morrowind:Inanius Egg Mine (quest)

2007-03-08T01:44:22Z

FMan: /* Chat with Avon Oran */ removed weasel language

{{Morrowind House Hlaalu Trail}}
{{NeedsImage-mw}}
{{Quest Header|Giver=[[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]]
|Start=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Balmora|Balmora]]
|Reward=500 septims, increase in faction reputation
|ID=HH_EggMine
|Prev=[[Morrowind:Alchemical Formulas|Alchemical Formulas]]
|Next=[[Morrowind:Guar Hide Squeeze|Guar Hide Squeeze]]
|Loc=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Balmora|Balmora]], [[{{NAMESPACE}}:Suran|Suran]], [[Morrowind:Inanius Egg Mine (place)|Inanius Egg Mine]]
|AddAbove=*'''Required Rank:''' None
|AddBelow=
|Image=
}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Chat with [[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]] about ''business'' and ''Inanius egg mine''.
# (Optional) Travel to [[Morrowind:Suran|Suran]] and visit [[Morrowind:Serjo Avon Oran|Serjo Avon Oran]].
# Travel to the [[Morrowind:Inanius Egg Mine (place)|Inanius Egg Mine]] and kill the Kwama Queen.
# Report back to Nileno Dorvayn to complete the quest and receive your reward.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===Inanius Egg Mine===
[[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]] at the [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] council manor will ask you to help undermine rival [[Morrowind:Avon Oran|Serjo Avon Oran]] by killing the Kwama Queen in the [[Morrowind:Inanius Egg Mine (place)|Inanius Egg Mine]], in the mountains east of [[Morrowind:Suran|Suran]]. The quickest route to the mine is to travel to Suran via the [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] [[Morrowind:Silt Strider|Silt Strider]], then travel by foot south out of Suran, and east around the mountain into the nearby [[Morrowind:Ashlands|Ashlands]] region. The mine is directly southeast of Suran and due south of [[Morrowind:Saturan|Saturan]], nestled in a small cove.

===Chat with Avon Oran===
You can optionally use this to extort up to 1000 gold septims from Oran (in his manor in [[Morrowind:Suran|Suran]]). Once in Suran, stop in at Oran Manor, located on the south side of Suran next to the [[Morrowind:Tribunal Temple|Tribunal Temple]], and have a chat with Avon Oran about the ''Inanius egg mine''. He will offer you 1000 gold septims to leave the mine alone. You can choose to acccept his offer (and earn a 5-point faction increase as well) and travel back to Balmora, but Nileno will be unhappy with your decision, and you will suffer a 10 drop in disposition with her. You can refuse his offer and suffer a drop in disposition with Oran, but be rewarded with 500 gold septims and a 5-point faction increase from Nileno. Or you can accept his offer, and kill the Kwama queen anyway. Nileno will also pay you for completing the quest, and will praise your devious mental workings.

===Killing the Kwama Queen===
Once at the mine (see directions above), you'll find the mine devoid of any miners; however, it is partially flooded and a swim is required to locate the queen. Dispose of her, taking out any hostile Kwama workers in the process.

===Completing the Quest===
Whichever route you choose, report back to Nileno Dorvayn in Balmora to complete the quest.

==Notes==
* Lower level characters may wish to wait on this one, as the mine is blighted and the Kwama workers will attack you, and they can do some damage.
* You will have to swim a little bit to get to the queen's lair (this is not a separate area), it is not accessible from the regular passages.
* Should you acquire the blight disease while in the mine, make a quick stop at one of the [[Morrowind:Tribunal Temple|Tribunal Temple]]s, or an [[Morrowind:Imperial Cult|Imperial Cult]] altar for a blessing to cure your ailment; alternatively you can sip a tasty cure blight disease potion to cure what ails you.

{{Quest Footer|Prev=[[Morrowind:Alchemical Formulas|Alchemical Formulas]]|Next=[[Morrowind:Guar Hide Squeeze|Guar Hide Squeeze]]|Up=[[Morrowind:House Hlaalu#House Hlaalu Quests|House Hlaalu Quests]]}}

Morrowind:The Death of Ralen Hlaalo

2007-03-08T01:37:16Z

FMan: /* Notes */ minor info

{{Morrowind House Hlaalu Trail}}
{{Quest Header|Giver=[[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]]
|Start=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Balmora|Balmora]]
|Reward=1000 septims, +10 faction reputation increase
|ID=HH_Retaliation
|Prev=[[Morrowind:Delivery for Bivale Teneran|Delivery for Bivale Teneran]]
|Next=[[Morrowind:Ebony Trade|Ebony Trade]]
|Loc=[[{{NAMESPACE}}:Balmora|Balmora]]
|AddAbove=* '''Required Rank:''' None
|AddBelow=
|Image=
}}
{{NeedsImage-mw}}

==Quick Walkthrough==
# Chat with [[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]] about ''business'' and ''Ralen Hlaalo''.
# (Optional) Ask around town about ''Ralen Hlaalo'', and you'll hear rumors that [[Morrowind:Nine-Toes|Nine-Toes]] the [[Morrowind:Argonian|Argonian]] killed him.
# (Optional) Chat with Nine-Toes, who will deny the killing [[Morrowind:Ralen Hlaalo|Ralen Hlaalo]].
# Take the key you received from Nileno Dorvayn and enter Hlaalo Manor; chat with Ralen's servant, [[Morrowind:Uryne Nirith|Uryne Nirith]].
# Ask around Balmora about the ''murderer's description'', and you'll be informed that [[Morrowind:Thanelen Velas|Thanelen Velas]] meets the description.
# Kill the offender, and report back to Nileno Dorvayn to complete the quest and receive your reward.

==Detailed Walkthrough==
===The Death of Ralen Hlaalo===
[[Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn|Nileno Dorvayn]] at [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]]'s [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Council Manor will ask you to find the murderer of House noble [[Morrowind:Ralen Hlaalo|Ralen Hlaalo]] in town and kill him. If you ask around town, you'll be pointed to [[Morrowind:Nine-Toes|Nine-Toes]] the [[Morrowind:Argonian|Argonian]].

===Confronting Nine-Toes (optional)===
Nine-Toes is in his house in town and will deny any involvement in the crime. You can choose to kill Nine-Toes and report back to Nileno Dorvayn to complete the quest, or you can choose to give him the benefit of the doubt and investigate further. If you choose to investigate further, proceed to Hlaalo Manor, just across from the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|Hlaalu]] Council Manor, and chat with Ralen's servant, [[Morrowind:Uryne Nirith|Uryne Nirith]].

===A Conversation with Uryne Nirith (optional)===
Once you locate Uryne, who's sequested in a small bedroom on the second floor of Hlaalo Manor, chat with her and she'll inform you that she witnessed the murder. She'll then give you a description of the murderer, who she identifies as a young [[Morrowind:Dunmer|Dunmer]] with red hair, bonemold armour, and a [[Morrowind:Dwemer|Dwemer]] War Axe. With this information, you can ask around town again and you'll be pointed towards [[Morrowind:Thanelen Velas|Thanelen Velas]] (of the [[Morrowind:Camonna Tong|Camonna Tong]]) in the [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] Council Club.

===Bringing a Murderer to Justice===
At this point, you have a couple of options. You can kill either Velas or Nine-Toes, or both if you want to make sure. Nileno will accept either or both deaths as sufficient vengeance.

Return to Nileno in [[Morrowind:Balmora|Balmora]] to finish the quest and receive your reward of 1,000 gold septims, and a House Hlaalu faction reputation increase of +10.

==Notes==
* You should be able to get this quest whether you belong to the [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House Hlaalu]] or not. If you have gotten the discussion topic "Ralen Hlaalo" via other means (such as the [[Morrowind:Thieves Guild|Thieves Guild]] quest to [[Morrowind:The Vintage Brandy|steal his Vintage Brandy]]), you may talk to Nileno and she will still ask you to find the murderer.
* Thanelen Velas is one of the targets for [[Morrowind:Larrius Varro Tells a Little Story|Larrius Varro's quest]], so you can complete both of these quests. Nileno will still pay you the thousand gold reward and may ask you to join [[Morrowind:House Hlaalu|House Hlaalu]] at that point if you are not a member. This quest will be instantaneously completed, if you have already killed Velas.
* If you kill Nine-Toes you will complete the quest and not get a bounty on your head. In order to kill Thanelen Velas without receiving a murder bounty, you will need to provoke him into a fight.

{{Quest Footer|Prev=[[Morrowind:Delivery for Bivale Teneran|Delivery for Bivale Teneran]]|Next=[[Morrowind:Ebony Trade|Ebony Trade]]|Up=[[Morrowind:House Hlaalu#House Hlaalu Quests|House Hlaalu Quests]]}}

Morrowind:Nileno Dorvayn

2007-03-08T01:33:43Z

FMan: Created new central NPC page.

<noinclude>[[Category:Morrowind People|{{PAGENAME}}]] {{Morrowind People Trail}}</noinclude> '''Nileno Dorvayn''' at the Hlaalu Council Manor in Balmora keeps the Hlaalu business going while the Councilors are away. However, no Hlaalu Councilors actually reside in Balmora. Nileno Dorvayn is nevertheless one of the essential Great House Hlaalu quest givers.

==Related Quests==
*{{Quest Link|Disguise}}
*{{Quest Link|Alchemical Formulas}}
*{{Quest Link|Inanius Egg Mine (quest)|altname=Inanius Egg Mine}}
*{{Quest Link|Guar Hide Squeeze}}
*{{Quest Link|Delivery for Bivale Teneran}}
*{{Quest Link|The Death of Ralen Hlaalo}}
*{{Quest Link|Ebony Trade}}

Morrowind talk:Quests

2007-03-08T01:18:36Z

FMan: Questionable deletion

The information on the reorganization of this page is [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Morrowind_Quest_Pages|here]], right? Will the headers all be divided into the cities, or will you still be able to access all the faction-related quests in one page? How would I best help you in this endeavor? [[User:Sstasino|Sstasino]] 15:42, 2 November 2006 (EST)
:All the Faction related quests will be under the appropriate faction headings; the city headings will contain the miscellaneous quests associated with the various cities not tied to a particular faction. The quests are being placed on individual quest pages, and in many cases are being rewritten and expanded to be more informative. The size of the resulting page and the links involved in tying the pages to related items on the wiki makes it difficult to manage the pages and serve them up to readers through the server, so we will be breaking the currently very large pages up.

:In addition, links are being inserted within the quest pages to tie to the locations involved, the people involved and any goodies or enchanted prizes that you get from the quest. This is a massive project that involves not only reworking the quest pages, but adding NPC and location pages as well. You assistance is most welcome...you can either start a discussion on my talk page, or feel free to join us in the IRC chat room...I'm there most evenings --[[User:Hoggwild5|Hoggwild5]] 16:13, 2 November 2006 (EST)

== Questionable deletion ==

Uh. "deleted towns with no starting miscellaneous quest" - I seriously disagree with this edit. I brought Balmora back. Its missing from the list will only make people wonder where it is. Furthermore, there has been not made a decision only to include cities that contain specific miscellaneous quests. Then again, listing all possible quests on the town pages is excessive IMHO. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 20:18, 7 March 2007 (EST)

Morrowind:Quests

2007-03-08T01:15:34Z

FMan: /* Cities and Towns */ how can anyone forget Balmora!!

{{Template:Morrowind Trail}} __NOTOC__
{{wip-mw}}
Our goal in writing these walkthroughs is to help "push you in the right direction" whenever you get stuck in a quest. That being said, we feel that it is much more exciting to play through the game by yourself, and only refer to this guide when you find yourself stuck in a quest and no longer having fun. We have tried to keep from spoiling parts of the storyline, but reading ahead could inform you of things that you weren't supposed to know yet.

==Main Quest==
* '''[[Morrowind:Main Quest|Main Quest]]''' – Walkthrough for all parts of Morrowind's main quest

==Great House Quests==
* '''[[Morrowind:House_Hlaalu#House_Hlaalu_Quests|House Hlaalu]]''' – All quests for the Great House of Hlaalu.
* '''[[Morrowind:House Redoran#House Redoran Quests|House Redoran]]''' – All quests for the Great House of Redoran.
* '''[[Morrowind:House Telvanni#House Telvanni Quests|House Telvanni]]''' – All quests for the Great House of Telvanni.

==Guild and Faction Quests==
* '''[[Morrowind:Fighters Guild#Fighters Guild Quests|Fighters Guild]]''' – All quests for the Guild of Fighters.
* '''[[Morrowind:Mages Guild#Mages Guild Quests|Mages Guild]]''' – All quests for the Guild of Mages.
* '''[[Morrowind:Thieves Guild#Thieves Guild Quests|Thieves Guild]]''' – All quests for the Guild of Thieves.
* '''[[Morrowind:Tribunal Temple#Tribunal Temple Quests|Tribunal Temple]]''' – All quests for the Temple.
* '''[[Morrowind:Morag Tong#Morag Tong Quests|Morag Tong]]''' – All quests for the Morag Tong.
* '''[[Morrowind:Imperial Cult#Imperial Cult Quests|Imperial Cult]]''' – All quests for the Imperial Cult.
* '''[[Morrowind:Imperial Legion#Imperial Legion Quests|Imperial Legion]]''' – All quests for the Imperial Legion.

==Cities and Towns==
{|
|
* '''[[Morrowind:Ald'ruhn#Related Quests|Ald'ruhn]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Balmora#Related Quests|Balmora]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Dagon_Fel#Related Quests|Dagon Fel]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Ebonheart#Related Quests|Ebonheart]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Ghostgate#Related Quests|Ghostgate]]'''
|
* '''[[Morrowind:Gnaar_Mok#Related Quests|Gnaar Mok]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Gnisis#Related Quests|Gnisis]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Hla Oad#Related Quests|Hla Oad]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Pelagiad#Related Quests|Pelagiad]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Sadrith Mora#Related Quests|Sadrith Mora]]'''
|
* '''[[Morrowind:Seyda Neen#Related Quests|Seyda Neen]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Suran#Related Quests|Suran]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Tel Branora#Related Quests|Tel Branora]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Tel Vos#Related Quests|Tel Vos]]'''
* '''[[Morrowind:Vivec (city)#Related Quests|Vivec]]'''
|}

==Other Quests==
* '''[[Morrowind:Ashlander Clan Quests|Ashlander Clan Quests]]''' – Quests from the Ashlander Clans
* '''[[Morrowind:Daedric Quests|Daedric]]''' – The daedric shrine quests
* '''[[Morrowind:Vampires#Vampire Quests|Vampiric]]''' – The quests available to you when you are a vampire
* '''[[Morrowind:Miscellaneous Quests|Miscellaneous Quests]]''' – Quests not associated with any faction or city

[[Category:Morrowind-Quests|Quests]]

Shivering talk:Shivering Isles

2007-03-08T00:55:41Z

FMan: dummy placeholder

==First Version Deleted?==
Just wondering... and this may be a stupid question but, why was the first page deleted? --[[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] 17:40, 13 January 2007 (EST)
:''Speedy deletion: Content was written by Ryan McCaffrey from PC Gamer magazine and we do not have permission to distribute his content under our BY-SA license.'' --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 18:21, 13 January 2007 (EST)

==Other Expansions==
If I buy this expansion will it come with knights of the nine and all the other plugins?
[[User:Paradox|Paradox]] 14:00, 19 February 2007 (EST)
:Pete Hines says it will not, and explains why in this video:[http://pc.ign.com/articles/762/762087p1.html] --[[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] 18:12, 20 February 2007 (EST)
:: Warning: you will have to watch a stupid Bond movie commercial before it allows you to download the video. The link actually takes you to a review article on The Shivering Isles and you'll have to further click "Video interview". --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 19:55, 7 March 2007 (EST)

==Namespace?==
Will this end up getting a full section tab entitled to it like the Tribunal and Bloodmoon expansions?{{unsigned|66.159.148.43}}
:Not likely, since it has been debated whether Morrowind's expansions deserve their own namespace; However, we can't be sure until we see what's involved with Shivering Isles. --[[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] 22:51, 9 February 2007 (EST)
::While currently, no, we don't know what the Shivering Isles will contain, we know from the released videos and interviews that it will be quite sizable and add "new items" to just about every category. From armor & weapons, spells, plants (flora), new factions, and at least two cities, there is no doubt it will be by definition an expansion. And while I do not support the idea of it having a section namespace on the side navigation, like [[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] says, I do think it would be easier and certainly more convenient (especially with the PS3 containing Isles when released) to have a link directly to the [[Oblivion:Shivering_Isles|Isles Main Page]] on the main [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion page]]. Possibly under ''Quest Information'' as something like: 
:::* '''[[Oblivion:Maps|Maps]]''' – Are you familiar with your whereabouts? 
:::* '''[[Oblivion:Quests|Quests]]''' – All the quests upon which you can embark, venturing forth into the unknown. 
:::* '''[[Oblivion:Shivering_Isles|Shivering Isles]]''' - All the additional quests, items, places, and content contained in [[Tamriel:Sheogorath|Sheogorath's]] mad realm. 
::I think this would benefit non-contributors looking for information pertaining to the expansion as well, by making it easier to find. Someone simply browsing for information may not know or think to scroll to the bottom of the [[Oblivion:Oblivion|Oblivion page]] and click "Official Mods" hidden amongst ''Modding and Tech Support'', or at the bottom of the [[Oblivion:Quests|Quests]] page named "Official Plugin Quests". Which seem contrary to each other seeing as how they both go to the same page, but that'd be another discussion. Anyhow my point is, currently it seems slightly hidden and would do better moved to a more noticeable area, it's an important change to the main page so I wanted to run it by and get some input from our team here before I did it (or not). I think this is further supported due to the fact that not many pages [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Special:Whatlinkshere&target=Oblivion:Shivering_Isles link] here yet, which is to be expected but doesn't give it that "wiki circle" yet (where one article leads to another and another due to the links in the article). --[[User:AlbinoMudcrab|AlbinoMudcrab]] 22:54, 15 February 2007 (EST)

:::There have ended up being two separate conversations about this. The question of whether to create a namespace for Shivering Isles was discussed in [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal#Mobile_Game_Page_Names]]; the topic may seem somewhat strange, but one thing led to another. So towards the end there was basically a decision to create a new "Shivering" namespace for the Shivering Isles; I've forwarded the proposal to [[User_talk:Daveh#New Suggestions|Daveh]], but I don't think he's taken any actions yet. The question can definitely be further discussed, but that's where things stand so far.
:::In the community portal section there was also some discussion about the side bar and how to deal with having new games to list, but there didn't seem to be any consensus on that part of things. I agree with the basic idea that there will have to be an easier way to find Shivering Isles once we start to add content. AlbinoMudcrab's idea for having it near the top of the Oblivion page definitely makes sense. Also, if I ever follow through on my "All Games" page it would be fairly prominently listed there. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 00:06, 16 February 2007 (EST)

::::After some serious thought, I think that a new namespace makes a lot of sense. It really wouldn't work the same way as Knights of the Nine. For KotN new items, we just made the page Oblivion:Knights of the Nine New Items. While that is a long name, that was really the only non-quest page we added. For Shivering Isles, there will be numerous NPCs, Ingredients, Creatures, Places, Items, etc. added. Unlike KotN, these will most likely be listed on new pages that are linked to from the main Shivering page, and it would be counterproductive to try to make Oblivion:Shivering Isles New Items, Oblivion:Shivering Isles Ingredients, Oblivion:Shivering Isles Places, etc. It seems intuitive that to find a list of places in the Isles, you would type Shivering Isles:Places.

::::It would still be very simple to link from Oblivion pages to Shivering pages, for example if an ingredient found in the Isles makes an Oblivion mission easier. Of course, each and every page that is linked to from the Oblivion namespace should be clearly marked as Official Plugin material, and mentioned in the text that contains the link if possible.

::::Also, in KotN, there was the concern of players being unaware what is original material and what was added by the plugin, so, in [[User:Nephele|Nephele]]'s words, "If you're wandering through the countryside and come across Fort Bulwark, for example, you should just be able to type in Oblivion:Fort_Bulwark to find the page describing that place." I am pretty sure the player will be able to tell if they are in the regular old gameworld, or in the Shivering Isles; to search for something you harvested in the Isles, you would type Shivering Isles:Whatever-root.

::::I love [[User:AlbinoMudcrab|AlbinoMudcrab]]'s idea of linking to the Shivering pages from the main Oblivion page. I have long felt that KotN's pages were much too hard to find. Shivering Isles having its own namespace would not complicate that at all that I can see. --[[User:GuildKnight|GuildKnight]] 16:25, 16 February 2007 (EST)

:::::You should have just listened to me in the first place. ;) If for not any othe reason, then simply to keep in line with Morrowind's expansions on UESP. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 19:55, 7 March 2007 (EST)

==Multiplayer==
OK, This may seem like an incredibly stupid thing for me to ask, but I have heard it from a few people on Xbox Live about the possibility for the expansion to be Multiplayer. One of my friends insists that it going to be, but I have my doubts. He said he saw it in one of his game magazines. Anyone know anything about this? --[[User:Arador|Arador]] 00:01, 6 February 2007 (EST)
:There is no multiplayer. [[User:NateDan|NateDan]] 13:12, 8 February 2007 (EST)

"M'aiq prefers to adventure alone. Others just get in the way. And they talk, talk, talk." =)
[[User:90.242.47.73|90.242.47.73]] 10:54, 10 February 2007 (EST) alcryt

==Why third pers?==
Most articles on this wiki are written in a convoluted second person--"you do this, you do that." Why is this article in formal third person--"the player this, the player that"? [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 12:27, 12 February 2007 (EST)
:Well, we've never really set up a defined way to write in that respect other than to say no first person. I believe most Quest Walkthroughs are written in Second Person, while other pages tend to be in third person. I'm not really sure, and we probably need to decide on one. (Or if there is already a correct way, make sure everyone knows it).--[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 12:52, 12 February 2007 (EST)

== Usurping Sheogorath? ==

I don't know if I'd take the tagline mentioned on the official pages as a sign that the player gets to take Sheogorath's place. I had assumed it meant you get to act as his avatar in the struggle to save his realm. Seems a bit too vague to draw such a big conclusion from.
:Also on that note, "usurping the deity" just sounds odd. Usurp the deityship or -hood, but not the god himself! [[User:Somercy|Somercy]] 13:07, 22 February 2007 (EST)

== This Gatekeeper ==

So...it's got a blade instead of a hand...I'm wondering where his boomstick is. ;-) [[User:152.23.196.162|152.23.196.162]] 04:15, 19 February 2007 (EST)

== Is this game will be in stores or I have to buy it at Xbox 360 marketplace? ==

I'm just wondering if I need 2400 points or $30.00CDN to buy it at stores.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 15:25, 6 March 2007 (EST)

:As Knights of the Nine was available in stores, I can only assume this will be too. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:33, 6 March 2007 (EST)

::The retail will only be for PC, like Knights of the Nine. I think because Microsoft made them only release it on Live for xbox.-- [[User:67.142.130.17|67.142.130.17]] 15:52, 6 March 2007 (EST)

:::Ah, I did not know it was unavailable as retail on the xbox, M$ is just evil. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:54, 6 March 2007 (EST)

::::Agreed. --[[User:67.142.130.17|67.142.130.17]] 15:57, 6 March 2007 (EST)

I guess I don't need this game then because I'm addicted to obivion more then Morrowind.I'm not sure what Microsoft is doing sort a scam us or something.--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 16:30, 6 March 2007 (EST)

:What? This is a expansion for Oblivion, it has nothing to do with Morrowind. We were just bashing Microsoft because they want beth to only release it on xbox live, Its not a scam, it just M$ promoting their service. --[[User:67.142.130.17|67.142.130.17]] 16:40, 6 March 2007 (EST)
Ok I'll get the microsoft points then and I heard I can use my gamerscore to use as a microsoft points(I'm not sure this is true or not)--[[User:ShakenMike|ShakenMike]] 17:30, 6 March 2007 (EST)

== Housing ==
I am wondering if there will be housing available in the Shivering Isles, or at least a place that won't respawn. I want to truly roleplay the expansion by bringing with me only what a real person could carry. To keep my inventory realistic, I'll probably need a place for storage. Any thoughts? Does anyone know if there are any 'safe' places? --[[User:Dio 225]]
: Their probably will be, but it hasn't been confirmed as far as I know --[[User:67.142.130.17|67.142.130.17]] 17:14, 6 March 2007 (EST)

User talk:ShakenMike

2007-03-08T00:46:11Z

FMan:

UESPWiki talk:Copyright and Ownership

2007-03-05T01:55:32Z

FMan: /* Using Material From Wikipedia. */ free?

==Possible Objections==
I remember looking at this back around 10/2005 just before I went back to real life. There are a couple of concerns. (BTW, I seems to recall that Garrett is a license fiend -- be sure to get him to look at this if he's still around.)
:Garrett hasn't made an edit since June 1st. :( --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 19:40, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

'''Non-commercial'''
Suppose that Dave puts up banner ads for the site -- that comes pretty close to being commercial. If he made money off it, it ''would'' be considered commercial. Which means that the license would not allow him to do it. Meanwhile what are the risks of commercial use? So long as any derived material allows both commercial and non-commercial use, then it could be plowed back into UESP. Note that the 800 lb gorilla of free market licenses (GNU and GNU document license), ''do'' allow commercial use, and many people in the FSL community view that as a very good and important thing.

:As said on the article page, the policy covers the ''content'' only, not the entire site. Even if the license was in effect on the site, there is a clause in the license stating that any part of the license may be waived if you obtain permission from copyright owner. Since Daveh is the copyright holder of the ''site'', he would ultimately be giving himself permission. Secondly, I agree that allowing commercial use may be a good thing. If a magazine wants to use our work on the grounds that they attribute our work in the manner specified by our policy, we get more advertising. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 19:38, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

'''Attribution'''
The problem with CC by-attribution licenses is that they assume relatively few authors. Using by-attribution when you have 10's to 100's of authors is just so unwieldy as to make it unusable. The by-attribution share licenses do have a way out of this, but you have to do the right thing to trigger the clause. Essentially you allow people to use something like "UESP Wiki" instead of the list of the actual authors. You trigger this not by editing the license (which isn't allowed), but somehow putting it on the page that links to the license -- I never learned the technical details -- check the CC site for more info.

:The content on the article page, once it becomes a policy, will take precedence over the license. Also, there is a clause in the license that states that "you must attribute the work in the manner specified by the author or licensor." UESP is the licensor, and the way to attribute material from this site is shown on the heading [[UESPWiki:Copyright_and_Ownership#Using_Materials_from_UESP|Using_Materials_from_UESP]]. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 19:38, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

That said, we definitely need to do ''something.'' I think that a CC license is probably the best solution -- my main question is which one, and how handle attribution (if required). Note to that there is the option of making the entire site public domain. Legally, it's the simplest -- but the cost may be too high (you give all control) e.g., a gaming magazine could spider the entire site, then release it on a disk with no attribution, or worse, someone could copy the entire site and then add new material which isn't free. So, a CC share-alike is probably best.
{{unsigned|Wrye}}

:Because of your above comments, I found the license [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/ca/ by-sa]] which allows commercial use. I very strongly oppose to putting the site in the public domain, and I rather us pick a CC license (or something similar). So what do you think about the by-sa license? --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 19:38, 1 July 2006 (EDT)

==nc has to go, and here's why==
Behold, the license fiend returns! :) Anyway, the first problem is that nc licenses aren't truly copyleft. The vast majority of gaming wikis are either GFDL or by-sa, meaning they wouldn't be able to use any of this content. Using nc does make OblivioWiki compatible but they're only one site out of many, and their use of nc doesn't have to influence UESP's choice. However because of UESP's colourful history there's an even bigger compatibility concern.

Since there was no license to begin with, past contributions were arguably considered to be under an ad-hoc attribution "license"; this means that they are incompatible with the new noncommercial license unless you track down the contributors and get their permission to use their content under this more restrictive license, or else rewrite everything they contributed so that their rights aren't being violated. However without the nc clause it is functionally identical to what is in place right now; it is merely a more concrete version of the current "policy" which serves to protect authors' rights further.

Now there's always the concern that IGN or somebody will step in and make money off the content (which is why I assume nc was suggested to begin with), but the embarrassment of including a copyleft statement would probably dissuade them. Also, it's going to be a lot less difficult sorting out local copyright this way.

Now bear in mind that the Creative Commons licenses still have their flaws, although they are less immediately troublesome than those of than the GFDL. The most crucial is attribution withdrawl. "''If You create a Derivative Work, upon notice from any Licensor You must, to the extent practicable, remove from the Derivative Work any credit as required by clause 4(c), as requested.''" (clause 4(a) of [http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/2.5/legalcode CC-BY-SA 2.5 Legal Code]). Under the GFDL authors who demand their work be removed can be ignored, but with (nc)-by-sa you have to grant their wishes. Because the mechanics of a wiki aren't accommodated for by the license it could be argued that even their diffs in the edit history has to be removed. Therefore if a major contributor suddenly changes their mind chaos may ensue. Also, edit attribution and history provision isn't so black-and-white as it is with the GFDL (which went slightly too far in this regard).

For these and other reasons [http://strategywiki.net StrategyWiki] has bravely (or foolishly?) decided to forge [http://strategywiki.net/wiki/StrategyWiki:License their own license] with the goal of improving by-sa to more adequately fit the needs of gaming wikis by gradually correcting criticised elements of the original license. As you can see from [http://strategywiki.net/wiki/StrategyWiki_talk:License the rationales offered], cc-by-sa is generally better than the GFDL for gaming wikis but is by no means perfect. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]][[User talk:Garrett|Talk]] 06:52, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

:Welcome back, Garrett. I'm glad to have you back with us. I made the ''by-nc-sa'' into a ''by-sa''. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 11:10, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

:Hmm... Okay, so if we go with CC, then we use the by-sa license -- I think that we're agreed on that (making sure that we trigger the "attribution" clause correctly so that we can allow attribution to "UESP Wiki" or something like that. There's still the question of whether some other non-CC license would be better. However, as you point out, there are still problems with the CC license. It would be nice if there were something out there that was a mature alternative, but I don't know of it. E.g., I checked the StrategyWiki license and it still has the removal clause which you object to.

:Feh. Let's go with by-sa. --User:Wrye|Wrye]] 15:16, 2 July 2006 (EDT)

==Policy Votes==
===Daveh's Vote===
:''Because of the legal implencations of this policy's proposal, Daveh will need to approve it before it can be put into effect.''

:'''Support''': This seems like a good system to me. -- [[User:Daveh|DaveH]] 17:34, 27 July 2006 (EDT)

===Yay Votes===
*'''Support''' - Because we really, really, really need something that declares copyright over the content of the site. --[[User:Aristeo|Aristeo]] 17:48, 30 June 2006 (EDT)
*'''Support'''. by-nc-sa is NOT a copyleft license. If nc is removed, however, this counts as a support vote. [[User:Garrett|Garrett]][[User talk:Garrett|Talk]] 05:18, 2 July 2006 (EDT)
*'''Support''' However, attribution should be to "UESP Wiki" rather than to history page of authors. E.g., on the editing page, we should have something like "Your work will be licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution 2.5 License and will be attributed to "UESP Wiki"." (E.g., see WikiNews article editing page.) --[[User:Wrye|Wrye]] 15:24, 2 July 2006 (EDT)
*'''Support''' - This one is a bit more complicated but I do agree. --[[User:PTemplar|PTemplar]] 16:06, 4 July 2006 (PDT)

===Nay Votes===
''(none)''

== Using Material From Wikipedia. ==

I've noticed that wikipedia has more information on some subjects than this site does. Could we lawfully take that information and put it on this site? I don't know very much about wiki copyright stuff. [[User:67.142.130.28|67.142.130.28]] 15:30, 4 March 2007 (EST)
:As I understand it, Not unless it is reworded. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 15:38, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::That makes sense, thanks. [[User:67.142.130.28|67.142.130.28]] 15:46, 4 March 2007 (EST)
:::Yes, copying content verbatim from Wikipedia gets into tricky questions about copyright (see, for example, the lengthy discussion at [[UESPWiki:Community_Portal/Archive_6#Copyright/Licensing]]). It's much better for everyone if you rewrite, using your own words, any information you see elsewhere on the web. The information isn't copyrighted, just the wording used to present the information. Also, since in most cases we have comparable pages here that already provide some of the content, integrating information from elsewhere will require the content to be rewritten anyway. Feel free to ask if you have any other questions. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 15:56, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::::As I understand it, the problem is that we are under Attribution-ShareAlike 2.5 License, and Wikipedia is under GNU Free Documentation License. Supposedly, material from other ShareAlike sites should be fair-game, but the differences between that and the GNU license, while minor, are enough that it's a bit iffy to just copy them directly. --[[User:TheRealLurlock|TheRealLurlock]] [[User_talk:TheRealLurlock|Talk]] 17:27, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::::: Well i checked wikipedia and this sites race pages, and seems as though someone copied+pasted ether whole articles or parts of articles. I'm not sure who copied who, but some of it is probably direct quotes from official sources. the pages are: the Argonian page which has parts of the wikipedia article snipped out with some differances, the Dunmer page, which is pretty much the same as the argonian page, the Breton page, which has one part taken from wikipedia, the Nord page, which is a blatant copy of wikipedia minus a different intro and a couple words removed, the Redgaurd page, which is basically the wikipedia page with a description added, and the Sload page, which is like the Nord page. [[User:67.142.130.37|67.142.130.37]] 19:20, 4 March 2007 (EST)
:::::: I take it you have checked dates so you are sure who has copied who? Also some of it may be the same as it is copied from official sources under Fair Use. [[User:Jadrax|Jadrax]] 19:26, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::::::: I'm doing that right now. The history of the Argonian pages shows that wikipedias page had everything that was copied was on wiki before uesp, uesps page only had the official description. [[User:67.142.130.37|67.142.130.37]] 19:56, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::::::::The same with the Dunmer pages [[User:67.142.130.37|67.142.130.37]] 20:03, 4 March 2007 (EST)
:::::::::What exactly would be the problem copying text from Wikipedia? Isn't it "free"? Please explain the differences in the licenses that both are public. --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 20:09, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::::::::::The text itself is free, but taking it and then editing it is the problem. Anyways, as for the race pages, I'm not going to rule out that the UESP and wikipedia are both copying from the same source, causing the similarities. A look at the [http://www.elderscrolls.com/codex/races_darkelf.htm Codex] on Elder Scrolls.com shows the same thing. --[[User:Ratwar|Ratwar]] 20:13, 4 March 2007 (EST)
According to the history of both the Wikipedia [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Argonian&oldid=49515614] and UESP [http://www.uesp.net/w/index.php?title=Tamriel:Argonian&oldid=19865] pages on Argonians, the material that is common to both pages originally came from the official Elder Scrolls site. Therefore they are similar because both were copied from an official source, not because one was copied from the other. I'm guessing the same is true for the other race pages. --[[User:Nephele|Nephele]] 20:18, 4 March 2007 (EST)
:I think that may be true about the pages with only sections of eachother, but I'm not so sure about pages that are copied almost word for word like the nord pages, unless it was taken from Guide to the Empire or something like that. [[User:67.142.130.37|67.142.130.37]] 20:37, 4 March 2007 (EST)
::If the text is free, then I can edit it ''freely'' (pun intended) - otherwise it isn't really "free". --[[User:FMan|FMan]] | [[User_talk:FMan|Talk]] ([[Special:Contributions/FMan|contribs]]) 20:55, 4 March 2007 (EST)